Sitting of 5 February 1840

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues.—Read a second time:—Designs Copyright; Juvenile Offenders; Law of Evidence (Scotland).—Read a third time:—Prince Albert's Annuity.
Petitions presented. By Messrs. Hutt, Baines, and Lord John Russell, from several places, for Relief to John Thorogood, and the Abolition of Church Rates.—By Mr. Hume, from Down, for Equal Rights to Ireland.—By Mr. M. Philips, from persons in Manchester, in favour of the Copyright of Designs Bill.—By Lord G. Somerset, from several places, for Church Extension.—By Mr. Hutt, from Hull, for an Inquiry into the tenets of Socialism.—By Mr. Baines, from one place, against the Jurisdiction of Ecclesiastical Courts.—By Colonel Butler, from several places, for an Extension of the Franchise, and Corporate Reform in Ireland.—By Sergeant Jackson, from Clonmel, against Municipal Reform.—By Mr. F. Maule, from several places in Scotland, against the Intrusion of Ministers into Parishes.—By Mr. Hume, from several places in Norfolk, against Local Taxation.

SHORT-HAND WRITERS.
Mr. Macleanpresented a petition from two short-hand writers, named Edward Morton and Francis N. Walsh, complaining of the monopoly of the Parliamentary and other business enjoyed by Mr. Gurney, from the double appointment of short-hand writer to the Houses of Lords and Commons, which he had held ever since the year 1803; and pointing out the injury arising from it to the profession, and to the public business, by excluding competition, and thus keeping down efficiency, and keeping up a high scale of charges. The petition stated, that in 1803 the business of Parliament was very small; that it had now increased to such an extent that two-thirds of it were done by short-hand writers, not in Mr. Gurney's own establishment, those persons receiving only such share of the business, and such proportion of the fees, as he thought proper to give them; that the number of persons skilled in the art of writing short-hand had also very much increased of late years, and that many of the gentlemen employed as Mr. Gurney's deputies were as competent in all respects as the members of his own establishment; but that he had, ever since his appointment, exercised the exclusive right of attending by himself or deputy all select and other committees, all examinations at the bar of the House, &c, so that for a period of thirty-seven years no other short-hand writer had been allowed to attend any committee, except as his deputy; the parties to private bills not being allowed to employ their own shorthand writer, even to take the speeches of counsel. It also stated, that Mr. Gurney

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was short-hand writer to the House of Lords, where he exercised the same exclusive privileges; and to the Privy Council, where he claimed the right to take minutes of the evidence in patent cases at the expense of the parties, to all the Government offices, viz., the. Treasury, India Board, War-office, Admiralty, Customs, Excise, Stamps, Woods and Forests, &c.; to the India House, the Corporation of London, the Bank of England, &c.; and that he was, or claimed to be, short-hand writer to all ecclesiastical, Government, and special commissions, and to most of the incorporated guilds of the city, dock, assurance, and other companies, besides having a very large and lucrative private connection, a great part of which he derived from his official character. The petitioners went on to state that the effect of this monopoly was to lower the character of the profession; and that under the present system the public business could not be well done. Mr. Gurney had always acted upon the right to keep his own establishment fully occupied at all times, tie consequences of which were, that the gentlemen employed as his deputies were not called upon till the last moment, when it was found that their services could not be dispensed with, and that they were constantly, and as a matter of course, displaced from committees, on which they had performed their duties satisfactorily, to make way for one of Mr. Gurney's own establishment. The petition further stated, that previous to the session of 1837, Mr. Gurney had allowed to his deputies about three-fifths of the fees received by him; that since that time they had received three-fourths, Mr. Gurney retaining one-fourth of the fees paid for business done by others as a remuneration for his superintendence of the department. It appeared from the miscellaneous estimates that, upon the average of the last four years, the sums paid to Mr. Gurney by the Treasury, in respect to the public business of Parliament, had exceeded 7,000 l. per annum; and from the great increase in the number of election and private bill committees, there must have been an equal amount received from private parties; making the gross receipts, in respect of the Parliamentary business alone, 14,000 l. per annum. So that, supposing two-thirds to have been done by deputy, Mr. Gurney, during the last four years, would have received a clear profit
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from the labours of others of 2,333 l. 6s. 8d. per annum, the remaining one-third being done by that gentleman's own establishment at, of course, a considerable less expense—probably not more than one-third of the sum charged in respect of it; and in that case the whole would have yielded him a clear annual profit of 5.444 l 8s.10 d; of; this sum being altogether exclusive of the profit upon business arising from peerage, divorce, and appeal cases in the House of Lords, the Privy Council, the Government offices, or any of the other sources before alluded to. The petitioners concluded by stating, that they were prepared to point out a mode by which the public business might be much better done, and at a cheaper rate, and that they confidently believed that the result would be, not only to raise the character of the profession, which was acknowledged to be one of public utility, but to facilitate and give an increased value to the labours of committees, and at the same time that it would effect a considerable saving in point of expense. They therefore prayed that the House would appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the subject.
Petition to lie upon the table.

COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS.
Mr. Emerson Tennentmoved the second reading of the Copyright Designs Bill, which extended the copyright to designs upon woven fabrics from three months to twelve. It was not the object of the bill to introduce any new principle into the law, but simply to give efficiency to a principle which the existing law already recognized and professed to provide for, but which in the lapse of time had become utterly nugatory. The act which first proposed to secure to the inventors of original designs the profits of their own labours was passed in 1787, and limited the protection to two months. This Act was renewed from time to time, but at length, in 1794, it was made perpetual, and the term of protection extended to three months, at which point it had remained unaltered up to the present. But during the forty or fifty years that had intervened many circumstances had concurred to render that which was then an effectual protection, merely a nominal and a deceptive one; amongst which, as the most prominent, may be noticed the application of steam navigation, thereby placing the foreign market almost upon a par with the home as regards priority in design; and the

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improvements in engraving and printing, which had nearly quadrupled the facilities for the rapid re-production of any pattern, he was, in fact, within the mark, when he stated, that from 150 to 200 pieces of goods could now be produced in one day, by the improved process, when not more than 15 to 20 could have been printed by the old machinery of some thirty years ago. And such was the rapidity with which designs could now be copied and re-produced, that in one very recent instance, the patterns of one eminent house in the city, of their style of dresses for the season, having been surreptitiously obtained by another establishment a few days before publication, rival articles were within eight days announced for sale in imitation of them, and at a much lower cost than those of the original inventor. Nor does the evil complained of, as arising from the present brief term, consist merely in this, that it is too short a period within which a designer could be repaid by ordinary sales for his outlay and investment; but the injury lies here, that parties willing to purchase were still deterred from giving extensive orders for original designs during the three months of protection, conscious that in a very few weeks, on the expiration of the term, and before the demand had ceased, they could be plentifully supplied with the cheaper imitations. Besides the very custom of the trade had a tendency to give those who existed by copying the designs of others, a facility for that purpose, which in effect reduced the term of protection even below the scanty limit of three months, inasmuch as it was necessary one month at least before a season opened (say in the month of January previous to the stormy season, which commences in February), to deliver to the warehouseman a book of the patterns prepared and ready for delivery, in order that his riders might exhibit them to his customers, and thus enable him to compute the extent of his orders. Now, not only was it a question whether the delivery of the patterns was not a "publication" in the eye of the law, thus fixing the date from which the three months' protection was to be computed, and, therefore, diminishing the term within which the goods were protected in the market from three months to two; but it gave to the intending copyist a full month to prepare his imitations for subsequent sale. So that, in no one respect would the present term, short and ill-defined as it is, be regarded as adequate protection and security which the
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law holds out and professes to provide. But it so happened that, at the present moment, the protection sought, at least by one most important branch of the trade—the calico printers—was less required for the home market than for the foreign trade; and it is one peculiar feature of the case, which strongly recommends copyrights of this description to a more summary protection than those of literature or the higher branches of art, which were of a permanent and fixed value—comparatively—that the taste which constituted the value of these designs for printed goods was perpetually fluctuating, and that their owners had no better security for their property than the proverbially fickle one of the fashion of the day. Now, it so happened, that just now, by one of those capricious fluctuations, woollens and silks were almost exclusively in demand for the home market, so that calicoes and printed cottons were manufactured almost entirely for the American and West Indian trade; and the House would readily perceive how utterly inadequate the term of three months was, to give protection to a branch of manufacture carried on at so vast a distance. In the first place, the tastes of the two countries were so distinct, that goods for the colonies must always be prepared from designs totally distinct from those intended for home consumption, a process of great labour, expense and delay; three or four designs being, perhaps, selected from 100 or more which were laid aside, and after being reduced to scale, would require from two to three months to engrave and complete, before one single piece could be ready for delivery. When ready the goods were shipped for the West Indies, a book of patterns being first handed to the shipping merchant by the manufacturer. And now let the House look at the practical effect of a short term of copyright; before a single course of post from Jamaica could bring a repetition of the order, the copyright had expired; the patterns in the meantime had been copied from the pattern books deposited with the English exporter, and he had goods in imitation of them ready for exportation, of inferior quality no doubt, but likewise at an inferior price from the diminished cost of production; or, perhaps these very imitations were already shipped, in the confidence that they would arrive in the West Indies just about the time that copyrights of the original had been exhausted. The original proprietor of course never received a second order; and for two reasons,

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first, because he could not afford to sell at so low a price as the imitator, who was at no expense for designs, which he obtained by means of a sheet of tracing paper, and who had infinitely less expense for engraving his patterns, being already reduced to scale, and ready for transferring to the copper-roller; and, secondly, because the cheap imitation destroyed the positive value of the more elegant original, and put an immediate check upon the sale; and, again, from the same consideration which operated on the home trade, the foreign purchaser would not, in the first instance, give any extensive order, from his knowledge of the prevalence of piracy, and of the certainty of his speedily obtaining the copies at much reduced prices. In the American trade a similar difficulty existed, and an equal injustice was sustained, with this aggravation, that the tastes of that country and this being nearly similar, and their seasons of trade simultaneous, the patterns must be earlier dispatched across the Atlantic, and of course the risk of their being intercepted and copied in England must be increased. Besides, had the original designer a sufficient protection from the home market, so as to insure him an adequate compensation there, the fact of his being enabled to produce goods for two markets from one set of designs, would enable him so to reduce his American price, as to augment and retain his export trade, whilst owing to the present unprotected condition of the trade, even the home market, as he had already shown, was curtailed in its fair extent of orders, by an apprehension of piracy, both in England and from copies transmitted across the Atlantic. He had thus endeavoured to show that neither for the home trade, nor the colonial and the American market, did the existing law hold out a fair and sufficient protection, and that it was indispensable that it should be immediately amended by an extension. The principle of protection had already been recognised by the law for nearly half a century; but, owing to the change of circumstances within that period, it had now become merely deceptive and delusive, and his object in this bill was to render it 'real and efficient. If, instead of being mere copyists in the arts of design, this country was to maintain the lead which she had hitherto taken in manufactures, this amendment of the law was indispensable. No prudent man, in the present state of the law, would go to the expense of employing original artists at high salaries, conscious that his
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designs were to be almost immediately invaded and appropriated by a host of copyists; and parents would not send their children to learn the business of original designers, if they were informed that pirates and imitators, who lived upon the inventions of others, were to be permitted to shut them out from a chance of employment. Under such circumstances our school of design must perish; and we must be contented in this branch of trade to be mere copyists of the French, and other nations, who give an adequate protection to enterprise and original talent. So important was this subject, that it was brought, under the consideration of the House last year, in two bills, by the late President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Poulett Thomson). By one, he extended the present protection of three months to silks and woollens, which were totally unprotected before (another instance of the necessity of suiting these laws to the circumstances of the times, for neither silks nor woollens were printed in England when the original law was passed, whilst the printing of linens, which was then common and protected by the act, was now absolutely obsolete and unknown;) and, by the other bill, Mr. Thomson gave to all other fabrics except these, the very term of protection which he now wished to confer upon the entire, namely, twelve months. In fact, Mr. Thomson's bill went so far as to give some articles a protection of three years, which would be as much too long a period, however, for woven fabrics, as three months had been found to be too little. But he could not see why room papers, oil cloths, and other inferior articles, were to have a twelve-month's protection, and the most valuable of our manufactures, silks, challis, and cachmeres were to have a lesser term. In every communication he had had with the printers of Lancashire, of Scotland, and of Ireland, they all concurred that twelve months would be the very lowest term which would afford them an adequate security, and render the protection promised and held out by the law a reality instead of a delusion. With this view he had so framed the bill, and he hoped the House, admitting its justice, would give its sanction to its enactment.
Mr. Mackinnonrose for the purpose of supporting the motion of his hon. Friend. He would strongly recommend to her Majesty's Government the advantages of introducing a general and comprehensive

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measure on the present subject; and lie would recommend them also to bring in a bill for the purpose of having designs and patterns registered at a small expense, and for having them afterwards exposed in a national gallery erected for the purpose. This would be a great advantage both to the public and to modellers of designs, who would have an opportunity of seeing those works in the gallery. He believed, too, that the small sums paid for registering these works would meet the expenses of erecting the building. He should support the bill on the principle, that "half a loaf was better than no bread"—although it did not go to the extent which he desired.
Mr. William Williamssaid, that this bill would affect most materially a very important branch of our manufactures, and he said that any interference with trade on the part of the Legislature would be injurious, and without strong reason being shown, and until a full case had been made out, there ought to be no measure passed. The speeches which he had heard in favour of this bill convinced him how dangerous it was for persons, unconnected with trade, to introduce measures of that kind. The law at present in force had existed for several years; during that period the printing business had flourished; and no one acquainted with its wants and interests would recommend such an alteration of that law as was now proposed. The very enactments introduced by the hon. Member for Belfast were expressly excluded from a bill which had been introduced into the House in two successive sessions, by the representative of Manchester, Mr. P. Thomson, then President of the Board of Trade. That Gentleman was in a situation in which he could have ascertained whether such enactments were desired by persons connected with the trade, or would be advantageous to them; and if they were so, he surely would not have taken care to exclude them from the bill which he supported. It had been said that new patterns would be copied in eight days. If the hon. Gentleman had known anything about the law, or the practice of the trade, he would have known that this was impossible, without incurring the severest penalties. As the law now stood, the inventor of a pattern had a clear three months exclusive sale, and if that sale were infringed upon by any person, that party could instantly be stopped by an
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injunction out of Chancery. As to the West India trade, the extent of it was insignificant, and was the law upon a great and general subject to be altered merely for the convenience of some particular interest? Some years ago a bill of this kind had been introduced into the other House of Parliament, which, at the request of numerous petitions, had been referred to a Select Committee, and on the recommendation of that Committee had been given up. It was surprising that Gentlemen, who called themselves the friends of free trade, should come forward and ask for further restrictions, as though they wanted all other trades to be free but their own. Thinking that the House ought not to interfere upon the subject without stronger ground than had as yet been made out, he now moved that this bill be read a second time this day six months.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, that undoubtedly the question was one of great importance to the manufacturing interests. In the first place, he begged to call the attention of the House to the existing law, and he must complain that the hon. Member in his statement had omitted mentioning it. The old law of the land was, that there was protection for three months to calico-printers and linen-printers alone, which could only be enforced by obtaining an injunction from the Court of Chancery. Last year Mr. P. Thomson brought in two bills extending the provisions of the old law to other fabrics. He proposed by one of those bills to give a protection of three years to those articles that were made out of metallic substances, but rendered it compulsory on the parties who wished to avail themselves of that extended period of protection to submit to a system of registration. Some of the manufacturers said it was not worth their while to incur the expense of registration, and therefore did not consent to the extended term under that condition. He (Mr. Labouchere) wished to point out to the House what evils they were likely to fall into if they protracted the period of protection, and at the same time did not compel them to adopt a system of registration. He certainly apprehended that it would be almost impossible to apply a system of that kind without a registration. It would, in fact, be establishing a restriction to one of the branches of our manufactures. Unless a system of registration

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were adopted, he believed it would be impossible for the Chancellor to decide upon the questions which would come before him. One great question, which it was always exceedingly difficult to decide in such cases, was the question of priority of invention. The same idea frequently struck different individuals nearly at the same time, and it was in such cases exceedingly difficult to determine who was entitled to the priority, but with a system of registration this was perfectly easy. He had been told by the registrar that persons frequently came to look at the register, and seeing the patterns registered, the idea of which had previously struck them, had gone away saying that they perceived they were on that occasion unfortunately too late. But if all these questions were to be left to (he determination of the Judges, they would be involved in law suits and difficulties without end. He thought it right to make this statement, because he thought the statement of the lion. Gentleman to the House was calculated to make it adopt measures which ought not to be adopted. In fact he considered the question now before the House to be merely a question of time; the House had agreed to the principle that it was necessary to afford protection to designs, and whether that protection should be for a period of three, six, or twelve months, was merely a question of time. He thought the present proposition would interfere too much with the trade, although he was bound to confess that the result of the communications he had received had been to produce an impression on his mind that the period of three months was somewhat too short, but he could not help saying he thought the House would act unadvisedly if it were to extend the period to twelve months. He would, therefore, support the second reading of the bill, reserving to himself the right of moving in the committee that the protection should be extended to a period of six months instead of twelve. He thought the House would act unpre cedently in giving a large period of protection, as it would in fact be granting a monopoly of any favourite pattern for too long a period, and raising the price to the consumer, thereby tending to injure the sale, both in the home and in the foreign markets. He should allow the bill to be read a second time, on the understanding that in Committee he should move the substitution of a period of six for one of twelve months.
Mr. Warburtonthought if the House were put in possession of the different views that were entertained on the petition before the bill went into Committee, it would greatly facilitate their coming to a correct conclusion. He was happy to hear the observations that had been made as to the ill effects resulting to the public from the monopoly, and the interests of the various parties concerned ought to be attended to. He wished to know in what respect these finished patterns came from the inventor in a different way than printed works did. The right hon. Baronet opposite, in some observations he made when adverting to petitions placed in his hands, appeared to take some interest in the matter, and he hoped when the subject of granting a term of copyright for literary property came under discussion, they should be honoured with his presence, which he did not remember had been given on former occasions. He thought if the right hon. Baronet gave his attendance on a matter of minor consequence, such as calico printing, he would also give it to the greater matter of literary property, and if so, the House would be more likely to come to a just conclusion on the subject than otherwise.
Sir R. Peelobserved, that he had great doubts upon the subject to which the bill of the hon. Member referred. It might be very inconvenient to extend the protection already granted much farther, while at the same time the present period might be too limited; and then came the question whether, at the same time that the protection was extended, registration should also be required. He was afraid that there would be much difficulty in requiring registration of patterns so evanescent as these matters; and yet if registration were not required, he did not exactly see why the parties asking for protection for their inventions should be put on the same footing as other trades who could register. He was sorry that the House should be asked to legislate on subjects like the present without possessing sufficient practical information on the subject. He could not, for his own part, form a satisfactory opinion on the subject without inquiry. He should, however, certainly support the second reading of the bill, but at the same time he would not pledge himself to agree to all the details in the Committee.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that practical ex-

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perience showed that the present term was too short, but he was not prepared to say that an extension of the period to twelve months might not be too long. That was a subject, however, for the consideration of a committee.
Mr. M. Phillipsdid not wish to take the extreme course recommended by the hon. Member for Coventry, but he thought that there were strong reasons why the House should weigh well any proposition which went to alter the law on a subject of this importance. If the period of protection were extended from three months to six months, it was possible, considering the facility of communication between this country and the continent, that the inventions thus protected might be copied by the Swiss and French printers, who would supply our markets, and thus, while we endeavoured to protect a few individuals, they themselves would suffer, and the national interests would be neglected. Instead of protecting a few, the measure might ruin a great many. It appeared to him that the question had not been generally taken up by the trade, and he did not think that there was any strong feeling among the calico printers on the subject, but at the same time he should not feel himself justified in hastily taking any steps to shut out enquiry, whether the protection now given mi"ht not be extended from three to six months. He therefore should not oppose the second reading of the bill.
Mr. E. Tennentwould lake the second reading of the bill now, on the understanding that it should at present proceed no further, but be referred to a select committee up stairs.
Amendment withdrawn. Bill read a second time, and ordered to be referred to a select committee.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (IRELAND).
Mr. E. Tennentmoved the order of the day for the second reading of the Administration of Justice (Ireland) Bill, in order to postpone it.
Mr. Sergeant Jacksonsaid, it was desirable to know, as the bill was of great importance, what were the views with which the hon. and learned Solicitor-general for Ireland regarded it.
Mr. D. R. Pigotsaid, that to the principle of the measure he should give his cordial adherence. So much did he approve of the measure, that he had himself
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prepared a bill to carry into effect the principal objects contemplated by the hon. Member. But the Bill which the hon. Member had brought in contained some provisions which it was not his intention to have embodied in his own; and he certainly could not give his concurrence to the second reading before he had an opportunity of communicating with some other Friends, who were more able than himself to judge of their effect. If the second reading were postponed for a month, he should then be able to state his intentions.
The motion for second reading postponed.

EJECTMENT AND REPLEVIN (IRELAND.)
Mr. E. Tennentmoved the second reading of the Ejectment and Replevin (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. D. R. Pigothad certainly expected, that the hon. Gentleman would have postponed the second reading of this bill also, for the purpose of giving those hon. Members who were acquainted with the practical working of the law, both in England and Ireland, an opportunity of judging whether it were a measure that was likely to be beneficial to the United Kingdom. His opinion was, that the bill in its present shape would be an injury to Ireland, rather than a benefit, inasmuch as it would interfere with and very much disturb the existing tenures and contracts in Ireland. It would be unwise and unjust to alter the settled law of property in that country, and to make it different from the law affecting similar property in England. By unsettling old analogies and introducing new ones, they would lay the foundation for a greater variance between the laws of the two countries, whereas they ought to do everything to assimilate them. If the hon. and learned Gentleman thought this a good bill, why did he not put in a clause to extend it to England? At all events, there ought to be some previous inquiry instituted before such an alteration was made in the law as this measure would effect. If, therefore, the hon. and learned Gentleman should press the second reading, he should move, that the bill be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he would second the amendment. He wished the House to understand distinctly, that the bill in its present shape would give an advantage

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to the landlords of Ireland which they had not at present, while it would take away from the tenants those advantages which they possessed. It would alter the legal tenures of existing contracts, which had been in existence for centuries. The estate of the Powys family in the county of Kerry had been held under leases of life, renewable forever, by the Crown, for 200 years, at a fee-farm rent of 1,800 l. a-year. The value of that property was so great, that some of the members of the families, six in number, holding those leases, had arrived at the Peerage, and others were persons of great wealth. Yet if one of those tenants omitted to pay the rent for a single year, the whole of these families might be evicted under this bill. He did not know, that any landlords in Ireland were calling for this measure, and he was sure that no Irish tenants were.
Mr. Sergeant Jacksonsaid, the law in this respect was not yet settled in Ireland, and that very good reasons existed why it should be settled. The absence of legislation upon it in England was to be accounted for by the fact, that the same kind of tenure which existed in Ireland was but rare in England—namely, that of letting lands on leases for life renewable for ever. If a person would not pay his rent, whether he were a great and powerful man or not, he ought to be liable to ejectment. For his own part, he could not see why such a law should not be extended to England, and on that ground he quite agreed with his hon. and learned Friend, that the law of the two countries should be assimilated. He would not object to a postponement of the second reading of the bill for a short period.
Second reading postponed.

SUPPLY—TRANSFER OF AIDS.
House in a Committee of Supply.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved as a resolution, "That a sum of 2,000,000 l. be granted in aid of her Majesty for the service of the current year."
Mr. Herriessaid, he wished to lake that opportunity of calling the attention of the committee to an irregularity which had oc-cured in the financial accounts of the last year. The committee would recollect that the budget was not brought forward until a late period of the session, and not until after much remonstrance, inquiry, and entreaty. It was not brought forward until the 16th of July, and that was a much la-
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ter period than usual, for making the financial statement. It would also be in the recollection of the committee, that in about a month after the budget, to the surprise of all persons acquainted with such matters it being supposed that with the budget the financial statement of the year closed, a very considerable financial operation was announced by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer—an operation for the funding of no less than four millions of Exchequer bills. He at the time observed that this was far from a convenient course to pursue, and the more especially as no circumstance had occured between the budget and the new operation to justify so sudden a change on the part of the Government. If, he said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been aware of any particular circumstance which made such a proceeding necessary he ought to have stated it at the time he made his financial statement. But he only adverted to this for the purpose of pointing out an irregularity in the public accounts, which had been the consequence of this unusual mode of proceeding. The irregularity of which he particularly required an explanation was this:—The House was aware that it was the practice of the Treasury, or, rather the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time being, to make provision in each year in the Committee of Supply for the amount of Exchequer Bills outstanding and intended to be carried on; and then to take a vote in ways and means for a like amount of new Exchequer Bills to be created, in order to discharge them. The amount so taken in supply and ways and means last year was 24,000,000 l.: but the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed 25,000,000 l. of Exchequer-bills, the odd million being found necessary to cover a deficiency to that amount in the income of the year, and these were included in the Appropriation Bill. After this came the plan of funding the 4,000,000 l. of Exchequer bills, which, as it appeared to him, in the absence of any precise explanation of the subject, by cancelling 4,000,000 l. of the 24,000,000 l. so previously provided for, rendered the vote in ways and means by so much larger than it ought to have been. There was, in fact, a double provision made for these 4,000,000 l. of Exchequer Bills outstanding; and he was at a loss to know how it would be made to appear correctly in the public accounts of the year. He thought this matter required explanation, and he hoped to hear it explained by the right hon. Gentleman. For aught he yet

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knew, the vote then before the Committee might be a part of the sum to which he had referred. But he waited for the right hon. Gentleman's explanation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had better state at once to the Committee, that he had not been aware of the point to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, not having looked sufficiently into the matter. The arrangement alluded to was one which had been made by his noble Friend who had preceded him in office, and under such circumstances, he thought it would be more satisfactory if he were to defer his explanations to some Supply night after he had made the necessary and proper inquiries on the subject.
Mr. Humewished to ask whether, during the last year, a considerable amount of Exchequer bills, the deposits of the savings' banks had not been funded? He understood that from this source, three millions had been added to the funded debt of the country without the knowledge of Parliament, and therefore he should be glad to know if any such operation as he had described, had taken place during the last year.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid there had, but that he was not prepared to state the exact amount.
Mr. Humecould not help thinking, that such a proceeding was most irregular, and the House would fail in their duty, if they did not appoint a committee of inquiry on the subject. He called the attention of the House to a similar matter three years ago, and then stated, that no instance had ever before occurred, of a Chancellor of the Exchequer adding to the funded debt without the knowledge of Parliament. He believed, however, that the bill which authorised this proceeding, was brought in by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Harwich, and he was, therefore, glad to find that the right hon. Gentleman now disapproved of it. He certainly should reserve to himself the consideration as to how far he would be justified on some future occasion, in moving for a committee of inquiry on this subject.
Mr. Herriessaid, that the bill referred to by the hon. Member for Kilkenny, was passed while his right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University, held the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer. He entirely agreed with the hon. Member in thinking, that Parliament ought very narrowly to watch the operation of that
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measure. In reference also to what had fallen from the hon. Member on the subject of savings' banks, he must say that he looked with some alarm on the increase of that species of stock, which was payable on the demand of the holders, and not at the option of the Government. Should it ever occur, though he was far from thinking it probable, that there arose a panic among those classes who were in the habit of making use of the savings' banks, so that they made a sudden call for their deposits, the financial difficulty of the period, should there exist any, would be very materially increased by the circumstance of so large an amount of the public debt being liable to be suddenly called for from the Government. When the question came on for general discussion, he would also have to complain that the Treasury had been backward in making the transfer from unfunded to funded debt, at periods when such transfers might have been made with more benefit to the public than at others.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the right hon. Gentleman had undoubtedly raised a point of great difficulty, and one upon which it was anything but agreeable to him at that moment to enter. It appeared to him, that difficulty was likely to arise from their dealing with the money of the savings' banks. He was not precisely aware of the effect which had been produced by the conversion of Exchequer bills into stock, but he believed it had occasioned a considerable diminution in the amount of Exchequer bills. No doubt the facilities given to savings' banks, originated in the best motives, but, then, it was quite true, as had been stated, that great inconvenience was likely to arise from having such large sums demandable. The consequences of the operations alluded to, were a diminution of the unfunded debt, and from a document which he held in his hand, he could state the result of the last two years. At the beginning of 1839, the amount of the unfunded debt was 29,974,000 l., and in January, 1840, it was only 20,688,000 l., so that there had been a reduction of nine millions of Exchequer bills, or one million in three. As, however, he would have other opportunities of entering more at large into this subject, he would reserve what further he had to say, for some supply night.
Mr. Humesaid, he was pleased to hear the observations of the right hon. Gentle-

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man the Member for Harwich, in relation to the amount of deposits of the savings' banks, which had been so improperly dealt with. He had brought forward a resolution on this subject, but although he had shown its magnitude and importance, and stated how far it would operate to affect the public credit, with one or two exceptions, he could obtain support from neither side of the House. The public credit ought not to be subject to such risks as it was exposed to during the last twelve months. It was scarcely possible to say for a month together, that the country was solvent, and this was, he thought, a state of things which no Chancellor of the Exchequer should permit. He hoped, however, before the end of the present Session, they would see things in a different state.
Mr. Warburtonwished to suggest, whether joint-stock banks, giving a moderate rate of interest on deposits, would not work better than the savings' banks. If such banks were established on principles of undoubted security, they would supersede the necessity of savings' banks, and save the Government trouble, while they held out to the public, nearly equal advantages to the savings' banks.
Resolution agreed to. The House resumed.