Sitting of 15 May 1839

MINUTES.
Petitions Presented:—By Sir DE LACY EVANS, Captain WEMYSS, the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, Lord ASHLEY, Messrs. GLADSTONE, BARNARD, HUME, PATTESON, AGLIONBY, and BERNAL, from a great number of Places, for a Uniform Penny Postage.— By Mr. PRAED, from Cheshire, for Amending the Beer Laws.—By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, from Edinburgh, against Sunday Travelling, and the Delivery of Letters on the Sunday.—By Lord SANDON, from several Places, for Church Extension in England.—By Mr. PLANTA, from Hastings, against appointing Catholic Chaplains to Prisons.—By Sir G. CLERK, Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR, and Mr. M. LOCKHART, from several Places, for Church Extension in Scotland.—By Mr. PAKINGTON, from places in Yorkshire, for Church Extension in Canada, and against any System of Education, not founded on the Scriptures.—By Mr. E. BULLER, from Staffordshire, for Reforming the Abuses in the Collection of County Rates.—By Mr. YOUNG, from two Places, for appointing Presbyterian Chaplains to Presbyterian Regiments, instead of compelling Presbyterian Soldiers to attend Places of Worship, not of their own Persuasion.—By Lord ASHLEY, from one Place against the Ecclesiastical Duties, and Revenues Bill.—By Mr. GLADSTONE, from Newark, against the Appointment of Catholic Chaplains to Prisons.

COLONEL PRINCE.
Mr. Humebegged to ask whether any answer had been received as to an inquiry into the conduct of Colonel Prince, who was reported to have shot some prisoners in Canada?
Mr. Labouchereregretted he had not been previously apprised of the question. As the question was one of the greatest public importance, and which had caused a great degree of excitement in Canada and the United States, and as great exaggeration and misrepresentation existed, he trusted the House would allow him to state exactly what the facts were. The House would recollect that in the month of December last, the province of Upper Canada was invaded by 400 armed men from America, who committed the greatest excesses within the colony. They began by shooting and setting fire to the houses of the peaceable inhabitants. They committed barbarities and atrocities which would have disgraced, not only Christians, but the most savage race. The persons whom they killed they mangled in the most cruel and shocking manner. Such was the conduct of that body of men which the militia of Upper Canada, under the orders of Colonel Prince, turned out to oppose. After a short time the invaders were defeated and the outrages suppressed. After describing the events of the action, Colonel Prince said, in his letter to the Governor, that four prisoners were brought in and shot by his orders. Besides this statement, a representation was made and signed by a considerable number of the inhabitants, adding that they were put to death with many circumstances of great inhumanity. The consequence was, that the Lieutenant-Governor referred the whole subject to a court of inquiry, presided over by officers of the regular army. The result of that inquiry was, that all the circumstances of aggravation and inhumanity had been disproved; and it was further proved, that these imputations were not only false, but founded upon personal towards Colonel Prince. The fact, however, remained undisputed, that Colonel Prince did, after the engagement, order four persons to be summarily put to death. He would not enter into the question which had been raised, whether it was strictly legal that persons who had committed such atrocious acts, who had invaded a friendly territory, were or were not beyond the pale of the laws which regulate the wars of civil nations. But this he was prepared to say, having stated these circumstances of palliation, which might be justly urged, that not one word of defence or justification of such conduct should ever pass his lips. He deeply regretted that such an event should have happened, and he
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trusted that the House would be satisfied with a pledge, on the part of the Government, that no means should be left untried to prevent the possibility of such an outrage being committed again.
Mr. Humemerely asked whether the papers detailing this transaction would be laid before the House, as it was a transaction not only affecting the honour of the army, but which had produced an intense sensation throughout the United States.
Mr. Laboucherewas not prepared to lay those papers before the House.

ADJOURNMENT.—THE SPEAKER.
Lord John Russellrose for the purpose of moving that this House should, at its rising, adjourn till Monday, the 27th of May, and should the Speaker, to the great regret of the House, persist in his resolution of not resuming the Chair after the holidays, he should on that day communicate to the House the pleasure of the Crown on that subject; and in order that the House might immediately proceed to the election of a Speaker, he should move that they meet on that day at half-past three. There was only one other subject on which he should address the House—that was with regard to the subject of Jamaica; he should not at present state what course the Ministers of the Crown were prepared to pursue. But he wished to state, that on Thursday, the 30th of May, either his right hon. Friend, the under Secretary for the Colonies, or himself, would bring forward a motion on the affairs of Jamaica; and until that motion had been taken into consideration, he should not propose any further proceedings upon the bill then before the House.
The Speakerthen rose, and said: As this is the last occasion on which I shall have the honour of presiding over the deliberations of this House, I cannot retire without expressing my most grateful acknowledgments for the kindness and support which have been so generally afforded to me, and which have sustained me in the discharge of my duties.
It was natural that the circumstances under which I was first placed in the Chair should create in my own mind a feeling of embarrassment, and weaken my confidence in my efforts. I most gratefully and unreservedly declare that I have throughout received as prompt and cordial support from those who opposed, as from those who supported my election, This circum-

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stance gives me the greatest pleasure, because it convinces me that the desire to uphold the authority which is necessary for enforcing propriety and regularity in the proceedings of the House is the first and strongest feeling among its Members. I am very sensible of my own imperfections, and I claim no other merit than that of having been influenced by an earnest and sincere desire to discharge my duty in all departments of the business of the House, and towards all persons, with courtesy, firmness, and impartiality.
I shall always retain the strongest feeling of gratitude for the favourable construction which has been put on all my acts, and my last wish will be, that this House may be so guided and governed in all its proceedings and conduct, as to ensure the honour, the security, and the happiness of the people whose destinies are confided to its care.

ARMING OF CHARTISTS.
Mr. Williams Wynncould not help expressing his surprise that so long an adjournment of the House should be proposed while the internal state of the country was so agitated. Six months had now elapsed since certain parties had recommended the people generally to procure arms. They knew that in different parts of the country those recommendations had been carried into effect, that fire arms had been provided, and that pikes had been made to a very great extent. Up to the present moment, they were publicly sold, and no steps had been taken to put an end to it. He had hoped that before that time the noble Lord who was charged with the care of internal affairs would have brought forward some measure on the subject, or, at all events, that he would have stated what the feelings of Government were upon the matter. Deadly weapons had been provided by a large number of people in the country, and it was no wonder that special constables should show some reluctance in the discharge of their duties, they being armed only with the weapon provided by law for a constable. He was not afraid of the ultimate success of the parties who were misleading the people. What he was afraid of was, that if this arming continued unchecked, it would lead to a lamentable degree of bloodshed. In his opinion the House was not doing its duty by consenting to such a long adjournment without taking some measures for strengthening the hands of the magis-
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trates, in the circumstances in which the country was now placed.
Lord John Russellhad to state that throughout the period alluded to, which had been a most anxious one, the Government had not been unmindful of what was going on; but he had thought that it was better to rely on the existing law than to come down to that House for other measures, without a positive and imperious necessity for doing so, because the objects of the persons influencing the minds of the people, and inciting them to arm, were so clearly mischievous—so many of their acts so clearly exposed them to the penalties of the law, that it was impossible that they could meet with any general sympathy. He had always found, however, that when extraordinary measures were taken in Parliament in such a case, a sympathy was created, and a jealousy excited with regard to the constitution, which ought not to be suspended without absolute necessity. Still he was not prepared to say, that it might not be necessary to propose some measure to Parliament with regard to arms in the hands of evil-disposed persons. He was of opinion, however, that when the necessity arose it would be far better to introduce the measure at once, and to ask Parliament to direct its immediate and unceasing attention to the subject, than to give a long notice with respect to it; or, after having brought it forward, to postpone its further consideration for a considerable time. With regard to the measures already taken, he must say that on two occasions, when her Majesty's Ministers had advised her Majesty to issue proclamations regarding meetings of an illegal character, meetings held by night with torches under circumstances of danger and terror, and meetings which were attended by persons having pikes and bludgeons, each time those proclamations were issued the most salutary effects had been produced. He felt most undoubtedly that the responsibility was very great in taking measures to arrest, and if possible to repress, the disposition to disturbance that had been exhibited. The subject had been a frequent matter of consultation between himself and the Attorney-general, and he had likewise frequently brought the question before the Cabinet; and it appeared to him that the course adopted, and the views taken with respect to the general state of the country, were more likely ultimately to produce a return to peace, than if the Government had at once proposed measures of an extraordinary description.
Sir H. Verneywished, in reference to the subject which the noble Lord had now brought forward, to ask whether it was his intention in the course of the present session to introduce any measure for the establishment of a more effective rural police? He thought such a measure would be calculated to give great satisfaction to the country.
Mr. Attwoodwished to know whether he understood the noble Lord right, when he supposed him to say that it was the intention of the Government to introduce further penal enactments. [No, no.] He thought the Government had done quite enough in putting in force the present law of the country. With regard to arms, he knew something about them, and he did not believe there had been fifty muskets or fifty pikes bought in England. He did not believe that the people of England had gone mad enough for that, or that they had ever thought of arming themselves. He was convinced they knew too well where their strength lay to take up arms. He was sure there had been a great deal of exaggeration on the subject, and he most earnestly urged upon her Majesty's Ministers and the House not to adopt any measure that would be calculated to excite the people to oppose the laws. If the people were outraged, the time might come when they might assume a far different appearance. These appeals to arms proceeded from the "intense eloquence" of some Irish speakers, and had been used by Tories, Radicals, and Neutrals throughout the country, as all the papers testified.
Lord John Russellthought it might be necessary to take some measures for the restriction of that which was an abuse of the rights secured by the Bill of Rights. It was, undoubtedly, true that every person had a right to have arms in his own defence; but the arming of a portion of the population, exhibiting and brandishing those arms to the terror and alarm of her Majesty's subjects, was an abuse of the right, and one which it might be necessary to meet by legislative enactment. The hon. Member said he did not believe there was any arming to any considerable extent. Certainly the information which be (Lord J. Russell) had from the town which the hon. Member represented, and other towns, would lead him to suppose there had been no very considerable quantity of arms made by the regular manufacturers, and the chief part of the sale which had taken place had been for exportation. But there had been wea-
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pons of a dangerous nature made by persons who were neither regular gun-makers nor manufacturers of arms. Whilst he wished, on one hand, to guard the House against any exaggerated notion of there being large bodies of men regularly armed, on the other hand he believed there were a considerable number of persons in possession of very dangerous and offensive weapons.
Mr. Humebelieved, that the agitation which now existed had been caused by a few individuals, and that the bulk of those who had assembled had been mislead. He trusted that it would be found that a great deal of the alarm which existed had been exaggerated. But it was the duty of the noble Lord and his colleagues to consider, whether the masses and the millions of the country had not just ground of complaint, and to endeavour to remove it. That would be a more likely way to prevent these evils than having recourse to any modification of the laws now in existence.
Motion for adjournment till Monday, the 27th instant, was agreed to. Adjourned accordingly.

Preamble
MINUTES.] Petitions presented:—By Lord ASHBURTON, from a number of places for a Uniform Penny Postage.