Sitting of 27 March 1839

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Captain ALSAGER, from Lambeth, against any further Grant to Maynooth College—By Captain GORDON, Messrs. CHALMERS, ELLIS, and BLAIR, from several places, in favour of Church Extension in Scotland.—By Lord HOTHAM, and Mr. PAKINGTON, from two places, for Church Extension in Canada.—By Mr. BUCK, and Colonel LYGON, from two places, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Lord NORREYS, from the Clergy of the Archdeaconry of Oxford, against the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues—By Messrs. GASKELL, WARD, and PAKINGTON, from a number of places, for a Uniform Penny Postage.

RAILWAY MONOPOLIES.
Lord G. Somersetpresented a petition from a great number of ware house men and others connected with the conveyance of goods from London to Birmingham and Manchester and other places. One of the petitioners had carried on the trade of carrier for twenty-six years, and another for forty years. The petition stated, that soon after the opening of the London and Birmingham Railway, applications had been made by several of the petitioners to the company, for the purpose of having their goods conveyed by the railway, but the answer which they received was, that the company had no means upon their line of conveying the goods. The petition went on to state, that other parties, however, also carriers, had their goods carried by

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the trains, and complained of the great injustice which this unequal exercise of the monopoly possessed by the company had produced. The petitioners stated, that they did not apply to the House without having first attempted to obtain redress by the ordinary course of law; in January last they had applied to the Court of Queen's Bench for a mandamus to compel the railway company to carry their goods, but the mandamus was refused, on the ground that the Act of Incorporation contained no clause affording any compulsory process against the company. The petitioners hoped, therefore, that the House would take into consideration the consequences which had arisen from the monopoly granted to the railway company, and they prayed that some statute should be passed by which the purposes of the Railway Act, as expressed in its preamble, namely, the improvement of the means of conveyance, might be carried into effect. The petition was signed by upwards of 180 persons, representing the great warehouses of London, by a great number in Manchester, by fifteen firms connected with the conveyance of goods between London and Manchester, by the whole of the aldermen and the corporation of the city of Chester, and contained in all 3,500 signatures. He might, perhaps, be allowed to take that opportunity of asking the right hon. President of the Board of Trade whether he intended to take any proceeding for the purpose of bringing the subject of railway conveyance before the House.
Mr. P. Thomsonsaid, he intended on the first Thursday after the recess, if he had an opportunity, to move for the appointment of a committee upon the subject, not with the intention of taking at present any ulterior measures upon the subject of railroads, but because the state of feeling of the House and of the public generally was such as to render some inquiry upon the subject necessary. Railway companies had, under the acts by which they were incorporated, been invested with very great powers; perhaps those powers might, in some respects, be for the advantage of the public, but they were also capable of being converted into an injurious monopoly.
Lord G. Somersetthen moved for a return of all sums of money raiseable by railway companies, distinguishing the sums to be raised by subscription from those to
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be raised by loan or mortgage, and a similar return with respect to companies to be formed under bills now before the House.
Return ordered.

NEW POOR-LAW.
Lord J. Russell having moved that the House, at its rising, do adjourn to Monday, the 8th of April,
Lord G. Somersetbegged to know if the noble Lord had yet made up his mind as to the course he should pursue with regard to the Poor-law Act; whether it was his intention to propose simply the renewal of the act, or to introduce any alterations respecting the powers of the commissioners and the objectionable clauses—those relating to illegitimate children.
Lord J. Russellsaid, he intended to bring in a bill in the couse of the present Session, by which he proposed to renew the powers of the commissioners, and to adopt some of the recommendations of the Poor-law Committee which sat last year. The bill would likewise give powers to the commissioners respecting unions formed under what was called Gilbert's Act; but it would not give them powers respecting parishes under local acts. He would also introduce other provisions in the bill, but not any alteration on the subject of the bastardy clauses. If he should hereafter deem such to be necessary, he would make it the subject of a separate bill.

CANADA—COLONEL PRINCE.
Mr. Humewished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies, to whom he had given a statement respecting Colonel Prince, alleging that that officer had shot, without trial, a number of prisoners who had been brought in by the Indians. He wished to know whether any information had been received at the Colonial-office on the subject.
Mr. Laboucherereplied, that the last time this subject had been brought under his notice in that House, he stated, that Sir G. Arthur, upon receiving intelligence of the transaction, had called upon Colonel Prince for an explanation. Since then that explanation had been received by Sir G. Arthur, but had not been considered by him satisfactory. The consequence of which was, that a court of inquiry had been constituted, witnesses would be

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brought forward on both sides, and the inquiry would, therefore, be a protracted one. In justice, however, to Colonel Prince, he should observe, that Sir G. Arthur had stated, that the reports which had made their way into this country through the newspapers were exceedingly exaggerated.

UNITED STATES.—BOUNDARY QUESTION.
Sir S. Canningbegged leave to address a few observations to the House upon a subject of great national importance—he meant the state of our relations with the United States of America. He thought, that hon. Gentlemen would feel that it would not be satisfactory to the country, that it would scarcely be decent, he might say, if that House were to adjourn for the holidays without an opportunity being afforded to her Majesty's Ministers of making, as far as circumstances would permit, some statement of the position in which we stand towards that power at the present moment. If the present circumstances of the country were of an ordinary character, the House might, perhaps, be satisfied to trust to the discretion of her Majesty's Ministers. But he must say, looking back to the transactions of the last few years, that he saw little reason to induce the House to count upon the energy, the decision, or even upon the discretion of their counsels respecting foreign affairs. By the accounts which had been received within the last few days, it appeared that the transaction which had lately occurred on the borders of the state of Maine had been taken up with a very strong and decided national spirit in the Congress of the United States; that the negotiations, which he understood from the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department to have been set on foot, had been suspended, but that there was some reason to suppose, although there were doubts upon the subject, that a plenipotentiary would be sent from America to this country to resume those negotiations for the adjustment of the boundary question. The country was aware, that on one side an official statement had been made that the Lieutenant-Governor of New Brunswick was acting under instructions which imposed upon him the necessity of maintaining, if necessary, by military force, exclusive jurisdiction over the disputed territory; and that, on the other side, it was said, that a docu-
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ment had been signed by the American Minister of State and her Majesty's Minister at Washington, recommending a peaceable arrangement of the question. He was aware of the delicacy of this subject, and he would not advance anything that might produce excitement or embarrass her Majesty's Government. His only object was to afford the noble Lord an opportunity of giving that information to the country which, under existing circumstances, not only with reference to what had occurred in the United States, but in various other parts of the world, might naturally be expected. The questions, therefore, which he had to put were, whether her Majesty's Ministers had received any official intelligence of the appointment of an American plenipotentiary to open a fresh negotiation in London for the adjustment of the boundary question; whether they had reason to believe that Sir John Harvey had acquiesced in the line of conduct recommended to him in the mean time by her Majesty's Minister at Washington and the American Minister of State; and whether they had any objection to lay on the Table of the House a copy of the instruction to which Sir John Harvey referred in his letter of Feb. 18, 1839, to the Governor of Maine, as making it imperative upon him to maintain, even if necessary by military force, an exclusive jurisdiction over the disputed territory? In putting these questions, he had no wish to embarrass her Majesty's Ministers. He sincerely hoped that our relations with the United States, which involved such great commercial and national interests, might be found capable of being maintained in a pacific state, and that the difficulties which had hitherto attended the adjustment of this question would soon be dissipated.
Viscount Palmerstonquite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that this was a question of the utmost delicacy and importance. He, therefore, trusted the House would excuse him if he declined to avail himself of the opportunity thus afforded him of entering into a full explanation with respect to the present state of these matters. He thought the answer which he should give to the first question would sufficiently account to the House for the reserve which he felt it his duty to maintain. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether her Majesty's Government had received any acccount of

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the intention of the government of the United States to send over a special plenipotentiary to this country for the purpose of communicating with the British Government on the subject. He yesterday received a despatch from Mr. Fox, dated the 7th of March, at Washington, communicating to him officially, that the American government had it under consideration whether they should send a special plenipotentiary for that purpose, or whether fresh negotiations would be opened; and as it, therefore, appeared to him some communication might be expected very shortly from the government of the United States in reference to the unfortunate circumstance which had taken place in Maine, and possibly also in reference to more general questions, he was sure the House would feel that he should be departing from his duty if he were to enter into any discussion or explanation touching those matters upon which it was likely the plenipotentiary might be instructed. With regard to the second question, he had reason to believe, that the last despatches received at the Colonial-office from Sir John Harvey were dated at a time when Sir John Harvey could not have received a communication of the memorandum of Mr. Fox and Mr. Forsyth. With regard to the other part of the question, he was sure his right hon. Friend would see, that it was not expedient at this moment to lay the papers before Parliament. He was convinced that the Government of the United States felt a no less sincere desire than her Majesty's Government that these incidental questions, as well as the main question, and as well as any others which might arise between the two Governments, should be satisfactorily adjusted, and that nothing should occur to interrupt those friendly relations which it was the interest of both countries to maintain.
Mr. C. Bullerwished to make a remark on a misinterpretation which had been put on some observations he had made the other night, which it had been said were calculated to have a bad effect on the settlement of the question. All he had intended by his remark was to press upon the House his conviction that Great Britain ought to abandon the untenable line, and take that which was in accordance with justice; by doing which she would gain more undisputedly than by attempting to maintain the other by force
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of arms. In saying, that our claim was untenable, he did not mean to say, that the claim of the other party was at all tenable.
Sir C. Greydid not intend to renew the notice which he had on the paper a few evenings ago. He contended, however, that it was open to every Member of that House to express his opinion on the subject of the correspondence between this country and America, which was laid on the Table of the House last year by the noble Lord; and he was surprised to perceive that newspapers of this country seemed to be of a different opinion. If it was not intended that hon. Members should express their opinions upon such documents, for what purpose were they laid before the House? When the reference was made to the King of the Netherlands he gave it as his opinion, that neither the line claimed on the one hand by Great Britain, nor on the other, that which the United States asserted to be the limits of her territory, did in truth constitute the true boundary. He affirmed, that neither line could be said to answer to the terms of the treaty, and that the matter in dispute must be arranged by adopting an intermediate boundary, or by a cession of territory on the one side, or on the other. Now, he (Sir Charles Grey) was desirous of having laid on the Table of the House, Mitchell's map, which bore date in the year 1755; and he was the more anxious on this account, that he desired to prevent its being confounded in the minds of Members with any more recent map; for as he was prepared to contend, that map, and that only, showed the true line. He had heard—not certainly from any source that he could call an authority—but he had heard, that there was no such map. If that happened to be the case, his purpose would still be in some degree, answered by calling the attention of the House to the fourth article of the treaty. He believed, that the map itself, or a French edition of it, dated in 1756, might be seen at the British museum. There was another map, of which a lithographic sketch had during the last year been laid before the House in connection with papers upon the subject of our North American possessions, and those two, namely Mitchell's map and the sketch he had just mentioned, were according to the convention of 1829, the only maps which were to guide the proceedings of the par-

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ties concerned in settling the boundary question. In his opinion, it was very clear either that they must be governed by the maps, or that they must seek to arrange differences upon the footing of an intermediate line, or else by a concession on the one side or on the other.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that as Parliament was now about to adjourn for several days, be did not regret, that some hon. Member should have thought it right to make inquiries of her Majesty's Government on the great question of the disputed boundary between our North American posessions and the United States. He was sure the House would agree with him in thinking, that upon the present occasion the right hon. Gentleman who put those questions had done so in a temper which showed no inclination to throw any impediments in the way of bringing the matters in dispute to a satisfactory conclusion. No one could feel more fully than he (Sir R. Peel) did, the inconvenience which must arise to any Government from a premature demand for papers, or from entering into any discussion respecting the course, which, at a moment like the present, they intended to adopt; for he felt, that in making their defence upon any charges which might be brought against them, Ministers would labour under the disadvantage of not being able to produce all the documents, that might be necessary, lest their disclosure should be prejudicial to the public service; he should, therefore not pursue the matter further than to say, that he fully reserved to himself the right of hereafter discussing whether her Majesty's Government, after rejecting the award of the King of Holland, and after having discovered, that our Canadian subjects had been exposed to apprehension and to danger—he repeated, he should claim for himself, at a future time, the right to consider whether the responsible advisers of the Crown had shown sufficient energy and decision in their attempt to bring this matter to an issue. Limiting himself, then, for the present, to this single remark, he could not at the same time help saying, that if there were any document which could possibly be called for, and the production of which was not liable to be objected to on the part of the Government, as raising any impediment in the way of a satisfactory settlement, he confessed he should have thought, that that document was an old
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map, dated in the year 1755—a map drawn at a time when no differences could exist between the United States and this country. If that map had any bearing on the question, he did hope that the right hon. Gentleman would persevere in his motion. If the map were not in existence, no jealous feeling need be excited, and he hoped if it did exist, that the particular map which had been moved for, and no more recent map, would be laid upon the Table of the House. It might be, however, that there were some well-founded objections to the production of the map which did not strike his mind. If the greater caution of the right hon. Gentleman suggested any to him, and that he felt unwilling to press his own Friends on the other side of the House, he too highly estimated the right hon. Gentleman's circumspection not to treat it with respect; but if there were no substantial objection to their seeing the old map, he hoped that it might be produced.
Sir C. Greywas sorry on so important a question the attention of the right hon. Baronet had been so distracted. He had never said the map was not in existence, and any hon. Gentleman who went to the British Museum could see it there in eight sheets. He felt he had done his duty in calling the attention of the Foreign-office to it, being quite sure, that if it was discovered to be useful there would be no objection to produce it.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that he understood his right hon. and learned Friend to express a wish that the map in question should be laid on the Table of the House, but at the same time to express some doubts as to its existence. He understood him, further, as not urgently pressing for the production of the map, but rather leaving it to him (Lord Palmerston) to make inquiry on the subject, and bring forward the map if it could conveniently be had. To this he had assented, as they sometimes did in that House, by signs, and it therefore became unnecessary, as he thought, that there should be any motion on the subject.
Sir R. Peel.I did not see the signs. If the map mentioned were the real map, the production of it could do no harm, but might do good.
The Motion for the adjournment of the House till the 8th of April was agreed to.

RUSSIA AND TURKEY.
On the ques-

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tion that the Report of the Committee of Supply on navy estimates be received,
Sir E. Codringtonbegged to avail himself of that opportunity to make some observations in reply to what had been stated the other night by the hon. Member for Birmingham, with reference to his conduct while commanding the Mediterranean squadron at the battle of Navarino. He was sorry now to be obliged to trespass on the attention of the House; but the hon. Member's motion not having been seconded, he was prevented at the time from making those remarks which, in justice to his own character and the position he had occupied, he thought it but fair to offer. The hon. Member stated, that he had on the occasion alluded to an order in his pocket to pass the Dardanelles; if he had possessed any such order, his conduct must have appeared very inconsistent; but he had no such authority, although certainly it would have been the means of avoiding many of the difficulties which had since occurred. The hon. Member had also made some observations on the conduct of Russia, which, knowing the facts of the case, he felt himself bound to contradict. It had been said, that the present state of affairs in the Mediterranean was mainly attributable to the Whigs; in his opinion, the Tories were more to blame than the Whigs, but both in fact were implicated. He had stated in the Mediterranean, and he repeated now, that if Mr. Canning had lived to carry out the view he originally took of the treaty of Akerman, no difficulty would have occurred, and Russia never would have gone to war with the Porte. It was the different view taken of that treaty by Mr. Canning's successor in office—it was the use of that fatal word "untoward," which gave rise to all the difficulty. That word "untoward" led Turkey to believe that the alliance was at an end, that France and England were of different opinions, and that Russia would be left to take her own course. The consequence was, the Turks, to insure the execution of the treaty of Akerman, forced Russia into a war, that led to her aggrandizement, for when she did go to war, of course she had a right to do the best for herself she could. When Turkey looked to England for assistance against Mehemet Ali, what was our situation? He was then in command of the squadron, and he would say this—had they had five more
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sail of the line, Mehemet Ali would have been stopped, and Turkey would not have been thrown into the arms of Russia. He deeply regretted, that from false economy the navy had been reduced to so low a state; at the same time he could not but think, that for the discussion which had lately taken place upon that subject, they were more indebted to the influence of party motives, than to any general desire to promote the efficiency of the service.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that as the gallant officer had thought it necessary to introduce this subject, he might also take occasion to observe, that in the speech by which the hon. Member for Birmingham prefaced his unseconded motion, not a few hard words had been applied to him; but even if that motion had been seconded, he did not know that he should have felt called on to give any reply. There was throughout an utter oblivion of dates, a total confusion and misstatement of facts. He was charged, for instance, with being a party reponsible for the proceedings of a Government with which he had not acted; so that if he had been called on, he really did not know how he should have been able to reply to such a speech. In fact, the only construction he could put on it was, not that any real alarm existed, even in the mind of the hon. Gentleman, with respect to the state of our national defence, but that so great was his attachment to irredeemable paper, so urgent his anxiety for an issue of one pound notes, that he was perfectly ready to risk all the consequences of any war, however detrimental to the interests of the country, provided only it might lead to the adoption of his favourite monetary panacea.
Report received.
The House went into Committee of

SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Sir H. Vivianregretted, that on account of indisposition, it would not be in his power to go into the subject of the Ordnance estimates so fully as he could have wished; he hoped, however, that the indulgent consideration of the House would not attribute any deficiency which might appear in his statement to a want of proper attention on the part of the Board. It was fortunately the less necessary for him to enter into much lengthened explanation, because the estimates themselves ever since the Duke of Wellington had

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been Master-General, were so clear and comprehensive that any hon. Gentleman might at once understand them. Contenting himself with observing, that he should have been wanting in his duty to the Crown and the country, if he had under any circumstances allowed the great department under his charge to fall into a state of inefficiency for any extraordinary emergency which might arise, he would at once proceed to point out how the excess of expense beyond last year was to be incurred. In the first vote, which had reference to the Tower and Pall-mall, there was an excess of £.1,057, which arose from additional establishments of clerks, &c., which had been found necessary in New South Wales and Canada. In the second vote, which was for the Royal Engineers, Sappers, and Miners, there would be found an excess of £.33,430; that was an excess in appearance more than in reality. A considerable portion of it, £26,598, for various allowances to the officers of Royal Engineers and Sappers and Miners, was formerly charged on the extraordinaries, but had now been transferred to the ordinary estimate. There was also an additional company of sappers and miners at Corfu, which was to be paid for out of the contribution of 25,000 l. per annum received from the Ionian states. Hitherto the sum contributed by those islands had not appeared on the estimates; but he had felt it to be his duty to bring the matter under the eye of Parliament; and it would now be seen, as he had stated, that the increase in this vote was more apparent than real. There was also a charge for an additional company of sappers and miners sent to Canada. That caused an increase of 2,560 l. in that item. The vacant commissions in the engineers had also created an increase of 1,800 l. The next point to which he should call the attention of the committee was the third vote, that for the Royal Artillery, including an addition of 216 men for Canada, amounting to 6,550. Here too was a transfer from the extraordinaries to the Ordnance estimates, including 6,372 l. for beer-money to the artillery. Looking at the extraordinary demands which had been made during the last three years on the artillery for Canada, for St. Helena, and for other quarters of our empire, the increase was not more than sufficient; and, if he had erred at all, it was rather in leaving that force de-
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ficient than in augmenting it too much. As he was willing to hope that circumstances might arise which would liberate a part of these men, he had been unwilling to ask her Majesty's Ministers to make any increase to the force at present. Here, too, several commissions had been filled up among the junior officers, which had occasioned an increase of 2,000 l. The fourth vote was for the salaries of the barrack-masters in the United Kingdom and on foreign stations. Here, too, was an increase of 1,287 l., occasioned by the establishment of three new barracks; two of them in Canada, rendered necessary in consequence of the disturbances there, and one in Australia. The fifth vote was for the extraordinaries, including ordnance work and repairs, storekeepers' expenditure, pay of clerks of works, building and repair of barracks, barrack-masters' expenditure, &c. Here there was an increase of 28,968 l. apparently. This increase would have amounted to 50,000 l. had it not been for some diminutions which had been effected in some details. The charges in the Ionian islands amounted to 13,000 l., but these would be defrayed by the Ionian islands themselves. There was also an addition of 11,000 l. for labour, the workmen being now engaged six instead of five days in the week. There was also an increase of 10,000 l. for building lock-up houses at the different barracks, in order to supersede the necessity of corporal punishments. There was also 10,000 l. extra expenditure for new barracks. The Ordnance was called upon to take the charge of the new barracks erected in the colonies. This of course increased the charge for them in the estimates, and therefore it was not fair to compare the charge of this year with that of last. 10,000 l. had been added in consequence of the expenditure thus incurred in St. Helena, Gambia, and Australia. These items had never before appeared in the Ordnance estimates. The excess of the next item, the 6th in the votes, above that of last year, was 3,643 l. In this item was included the survey of England, Scotland, and Ireland. The excess of expenditure this year above that of last year for the survey was 11,000 l. It had been deemed important that the survey should be pressed in all the three countries, and therefore it was proposed to take a larger sum this year; and if it had not been for a diminution of 8,000 l. which

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had been effected in the civil and military contingencies, the excess of this item would have been upwards of 11,000 l. He could assure the committee that every possible saving consistent with the efficiency of the department had been made in this item. The next, and the most important vote of all, was the vote for stores. On that vote there was an excess of 63,000 l. above that of last year. Last year the vote for small arms was 25,000 l.; this year it was 30,000 l. He should state that the establishment of small arms had been reduced as far as it could be with propriety; it was now under 200,000 stand. He had let it go so low, because it was quite clear that in case of war we should have to provide ourselves with improved arms; and whenever that event took place the officer at the head of the Ordnance would have to come down to the House and ask for a large vote to provide percussion arms. He had taken great pains in looking into this branch of the subject; and he was happy to say that considerable improvement had been already made. If our soldiers were again called upon to take the field, they must be provided with arms in which they could place perfect confidence. A committee had sat, of which his gallant Friend near him (Colonel Anson) was the chairman, and had decided as to what were the best arms for the cavalry, the infantry, and the rifles. The first recommendation of the committee was, that the arms for all three services should be of a similar bore. Formerly the musket, the rifle, the carbine, and the pistol, were all of different bore. Now they would all be of the same bore, and the bullet would be the same for all these different descriptions of arms. The percussion rifle had been highly approved by the rifle corps, and also by the Commander-in-chief. The carbine which had been provided for the cavalry had also been approved of in the highest terms. He had received a report from the colonel in command of the 5th Dragoon Guards, now in Canada, and also from the colonel of the 7th Hussars, stating that they were the best arms of their kind which they had ever seen. The musket for the infantry was also a superior description of arms; and he held in his hand a report of the result of a trial which had been made between it and the flint musket. Out of 2,000 rounds by percussion arms, nine only missed fire; out of 2,000 rounds by
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flint-muskets, 822 missed fire. By percussion arms there were out of that number 777 hits, by flint-muskets 540 only; so that the number of miss-fires by flint-muskets, instead of being only nine out of 2,000, was nearly one-half, and considerably more than a third, and the number of hits by the percussion muskets was greater than the number by flint-muskets by the excess of 777 over 540. In case therefore of war, it would only be justice to the soldier to have him provided with percussion arms. In the next vote, which contained the expense of services performed by the office of Ordnance, and not provided for by Parliament in 1838–9, there was a small increase of 989 l. In the ninth vote, which was for superannuated allowances, there was a diminution of 5,449 l.; and in the tenth vote, which was for commissariat supplies, there was also a diminution of 1,990 l. There was thus upon the whole estimates a sum of 150,049 l. more to be voted this year than had been voted last year. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving that there be granted to her Majesty a sum not exceeding 116,851 l., for the purpose of defraying the civil establishments of the Ordnance at the Tower and Pall-mall, of the departments at Woolwich, of the outstations in the United Kingdom, and of the foreign stations.
Mr. Humecomplimented the right hon. and gallant Officer upon the clear manner in which the Ordnance estimates were this year drawn up. Considering the circumstances under which the estimates for the army and navy had been voted this year, it did not appear to him right to detain the House, as it would otherwise have been his duty to do, upon these estimates. After we had determined to employ a certain number of men in the army and in the navy, we were bound to supply them with all they required to make their service effective. Considering, also, how necessary it was to provide for the efficiency of the Royal Artillery, he should not object to the present vote. Though these estimates were, in his opinion, double what they ought to be in time of peace, yet they were not out of proportion to the number of men voted. Our engineers might vie with those of any service in Europe, and yet, strange to say, there was nothing like the same proportion of engineer officers on the staff of the army in our service, that there was in the army of every other

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nation in Europe. He protested against making these large increases in all the estimates, when it was notorious that the revenue was deficient. The House ought not to vote such estimates, until the Chancellor of the Exchequer had explained his ways and means for the year. He complained of the studied evasion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that point. He thought, that with such estimates the right hon. Gentleman would have no other alternative than that of adding to the taxes of the country. He objected to the system now acted on. The country was in a wretched state. It had no Government, and no Opposition. There was a strong and well-compacted party Opposition; but no economical Opposition. As a Reformer he was in a false position, and though very unwilling to change sides, his duty almost forced him to do it. He hoped, however, that the times would mend.
Vote agreed to.
On the sum of 330,326 l. being proposed for defraying the charges for Ordnance works, repairs, &c., in the United Kingdom and the Colonies,
Mr. Humethought, the charges made for the admission of the public to the Tower and other public buildings should be discontinued.
Colonel Ansonsaid, the charge for admission to the Tower was very small, being only one shilling; but he should be very happy to see all fees for admittance to the Tower and similar buildings, abolished.
Mr. Wakleysaid, the fee of one shilling was large or small, according to the means of the individual paying it. A shilling was of more importance to a poor man who earned but 12 s. or 13 s. a week, than 500 l. or 600 l. was to the gallant Colonel. It was surprising to find, when the money of the people was voting away, that out of 320 Members of the Opposition in that House, there were six now present. The right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tam-worth, was probably of opinion, that it was not for them to object to the voting of money, which his party would have the spending of. It was, however, a woeful thing to think that, with a reduced revenue, the expenditure of the present year was to be increased beyond that of the last by nearly three millions. And yet the present Ministers came into office as a reforming and an economic Govern-
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ment. He hoped some explanation of the increase in the vote would be given.
Sir Hussey Viviansaid, the increase to which the hon. Member alluded, arose from additional pay being allowed to medical officers for length of service. The increased allowance did not, however, extend to assistant surgeons. He thought there were great objections to throwing open such a place as the Tower, containing 100,000 stand of flinted arms, to the public indiscriminately.
Mr. Briscoecondemned the principle of compelling the public to pay 1s. each for admittance to the Tower.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was the wish of the Government to give every facility to the public to view every object of interest over which the Government had any control.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that a sum of 144,061 l. be granted for the Barrack Service.
Colonel Thomascomplained of the state in which the barracks were. They had not been painted in many cases for several years—they were a disgrace to the country. He was surprised to find the hon. Member for Kilkenny who had amassed a large fortune in India by supplying rations to the army, getting up night after night in the House and opposing every measure that would tend to the comfort and convenience of the soldier.
Mr. Humewould give a flat denial to the statement of the gallant Officer opposite that he was in the habit of opposing every measure that was brought forward for the good of the army—it was utterly untrue; he had never opposed any measure calculated to attain that object. No man in the House had done more to improve the condition of the private soldier than he had done; he would merely allude to his attempts to do away with the punishment of flogging. With regard to what had taken place in India, the gallant Officer had been talking on a subject about which he could know nothing. His statements were utterly untrue. The gallant Officer had uttered falsehoods in that House. He had talked about his feeding the troops, what did he mean by speaking on such subjects? He had never done anything in his life that he was not proud of, and therefore he called upon the hon. and gallant Officer to state what he meant by such an unwarrantable attack to which he had

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given its proper designation. He hoped be would be more cautious the next time as to the statements he made, as it would be utterly impossible public business could be carried on if attacks were made in this way. Whether he was connected with physic or not, he would defy any one to say he had ever done anything he ought to be ashamed of. The conduct of the gallant Officer might appear extraordinary, but the House would perceive from his manner the reason of his conduct.
Colonel Thomassaid, that the circumstance to which he alluded was well known. The hon. Gentleman had been an assistant surgeon, and afterwards appointed commissary. [Mr. Hume: That is not true.] He had heard so when he was in India. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's assertion that he had uttered a falsehood, it was too contemptible for him to notiee, it was beneath his contempt.
The Chairmansaid, these were attacks which ought not to be made; he very much lamented that this conversation had ensued.
Sir R. H. Viviansaid, if the barracks were in a disgraceful state, the hon. and gallant Member was himself to blame. When he had first become Ordnance Master he had sent a circular round, in 1836, to the barrack-masters, ordering everything to be prepared for the comfort of the troops, and ordering anything that was wanted to be stated; and therefore, if there was any want, those who had command of the barracks were the persons to blame, and not the Ordnance Department. If complaints had been made in the proper quarter, they would have been attended to directly.
Colonel Thomashad not reflected, either personally on Sir H. Vivian, or on his department. What he had stated was the fact—that the barracks were in a disgraceful state, and had not been painted for years. He (Colonel Thomas) understood from the gallant officer of the district, that so far from not having made any complaints, he had written as many reports respecting the state of the barracks as would fill a room.
Vote agreed to.
The next motion was, that the sum of 188,000 l. be granted for defraying the charge for stores for the ordnance and military-store branch.
Captain Bolderowished to know if the
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marines were not to have great-coats allowed them. It would only cost the country 2,000 l. He had brought before the country the situation in which the marines were, the other night. There were 1,200 men serving in Spain with the artillery, and these marines had to find their great-coats. He was of opinion that they were entitled to have their coats provided. He had proved that the order of 1805 authorized this as clearly as possible, and that order had never been rescinded. They were therefore bound to prove the authority on which they made the marine pay for his great-coat. If they had it not, it ceased as a matter of course. It would make the marines happy and content to put them under the same regulations as the other soldiers, which he thought ought to be done.
Viscount Howicksaid, the marines were not subject to any disadvantage. The disadvantage was the other way; they were a favoured branch of the service. He thought these comparisons between the pay of different branches of the service ought not to be made without extreme caution, and certainly not without a more accurate knowledge of facts, than the hon. and gallant officer had shown.
Vote agreed to.
The House resumed, and adjourned for the Easter Holidays to April 8th.

Preamble
MINUTES.] Bills. The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the following Bills:—Duke of Wellington's Estate; Tithe Compositions Arrears (Ireland); and to two Private Bills.