Sitting of 28 June 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Linen Manufactures (Ireland); Bankrupt Liability; Parochial Cure of Souls Indemnity.—Read a second time:—Loan Fund (Ireland); Admiralty Court—Read a third time:—Bankrupts Estates (Scotland); Custody of Infants; Borough Watch Rates; Exchequer of Pleas.

SMALL DEBTS COURTS.
Lord Stanleysaid, perhaps he might be allowed to call the attention of the House for a few minutes, to the proceedings to be adopted with regard to the numerous Small Debts Court Bills which had been introduced. The proceedings of all the committees on Small Debts Bills had been suspended till Monday next, with a view that, in the mean time, a full discussion on the subject should take place, in order to secure uniformity in those bills, by the adoption of some general regulations which would be applicable to all. He understood that the
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committee which had been appointed to consider whether a general measure could not be brought forward would sit on Monday, and he believed it was probable that that committee would, within a few days afterwards, make their report. It was, however, possible that it would be found impracticable to introduce a general measure founded on that report at so late a period in the Session; but even if such should be the case, he thought a course might be adopted, which would secure uniformity in bills for establishing courts for the recovery of small debts, and at the same time enable all parties anxious for such bills to proceed in the present Session. He would suggest, that when the committee had reported, the chairman, or some other member of the committee should take the trouble of extracting the leading principles relative to the constitution of the court, and other points of importance, on which they proposed to found a general measure; and if such a course were adopted, he thought it might be practicable to frame a general instruction, which would secure the great object of uniformity, and yet enable private parties to proceed with their bills. When that extract was made, he would propose, that the chairman of the general committee should move an instruction to all committees on local Small Debts Bills, to make provisions in those bills, in accordance with the general measure to be afterwards introduced. By the adoption of that course, a Parliamentary authority would be given to the proceedings of the different committees, and those committees would be enabled to proceed on an uniform principle, and all parties anxious for local bills, would be enabled to obtain them in the present Session, while all would be in accordance with the general measure to be afterwards introduced. He would suggest, therefore, that it might be wise to suspend the proceedings of committees on Small Debts Bills for a short time beyond Monday, and that an early day next week should be fixed upon, when after a short debate, the House, he was persuaded, would be enabled to frame some general instruction, which would allow all the small debts committees to proceed on one uniform plan.
Sir G. Greysaid, the general committee would certainly meet on Monday next, and would, in a very short time afterwards, make their report, as they had already agreed on the principle on which

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they proposed that a general measure should be founded.
Lord J. Russellsaid, it seemed to him, that if the House were to decide on the general principle upon which Small Debt Bills ought to be framed, it would be better to introduce at once a general measure on the subject.
Mr. P. Thompsonsaid, that in order to allow sufficient time to ascertain what course the House might recommend, after the general committee had reported, he should move, that the proceedings of committees on Small Debts Bills be farther suspended for a week from Monday next.
Ordered accordingly.

CANADA.
Sir Robert Peelbefore the House proceeded to business, begged to remind the noble Lord opposite, that he had said he would that evening intimate to the House what course he intended to pursue with respect to Canada, and that Canada Bill which provided for the union of the provinces. Would the noble Lord now intimate whether he intended to press the second reading of that bill to a division, and if so, on what day the division would be taken?
Lord John Russellreplied, that he did not mean to press the second reading of that bill.
Mr. C. Bullerwished to ask the noble Lord whether he intended to take any further steps about the other Canada bill.
Lord John Russellsaid, the bill for the temporary government of Canada would be brought forward with a view to make it a law, if possible. He stated some time time ago that there were despatches from Upper Canada, stating the opinions that were entertained by the House of Assembly there, and by the committee of that House; further despatches were received yesterday, which he had read that day, from the Governor, stating several important circumstances, and that it would not be advisable without an absolute necessity to have a discussion in that House about the union of the two provinces.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that was exactly the ground which he had taken. Would the noble Lord indicate to the House what course he intended to pursue with respect to the future, in order to bring this question to an issue? There was a
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great anxiety on the part of the Canadians to know what were the intentions of the Imperial Parliament on this subject. He ventured to say, that it would be absolutely necessary that they should apply themselves to this as to a paramount object—namely, that they should determine what was to be the condition of the Canadas in future? Were they to invite the House of Assembly to send persons hither to be examined at the Bar of the House, or was it intended to send out persons, or what means were to be used in order that the difficulties which interrupted the course of legislation might be removed?
Lord John Russellpurposed in the course of the present Session, as he had already stated, to move through the further stages the bill for removing those difficulties and obstacles which stood in the way of the temporary government of the province of Lower Canada. It was the intention of the Government to propose a plan, of which the outlines had been already given to the House, for the purpose of effecting the union of the two provinces; but it did appear from the accounts received from Canada that the plan of union, which at first had been adopted not only by one party in Lower Canada, but generally by persons of great influence, and by the Assembly of Upper Canada, had since been the subject of great discussion. When the last accounts came away there was a considerable ferment prevailing on that subject, and a general desire on the part of one great party that this House should not proceed to legislate on the subject without hearing the whole of the case of Upper Canada. He therefore thought it necessary not to endeavour to carry further the measure of union without giving every careful consideration to the question, and the expression of some concurrence in the plan of union. It was therefore the intention of her Majesty's Government, having prepared that bill, to send it to Canada with instructions to obtain information, and as far as possible an approval of the plan, which might be for the general benefit of all persons, and he hoped at an early period of the ensuing Session to submit a measure which would be likely permanently to settle the question. If the right hon. Gentleman object to the course her Majesty's Government intended to pursue with regard to the union, he

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should be disposed to pay every attention to his objections. But he must say, that a great part of the difficulties existing in Canada, in respect to the bringing forward of any plan, might be attributed to the discussions which had taken place; and those difficulties could not be removed by discussions got up, not for the purpose of Canada, but for other purposes, such, for instance, as that taken at the end of the last Session of Parliament with regard to the administration of Lord Durham. In his opinion, if Lord Durham had been allowed to continue the course which he was pursuing, he would have speedily removed all the difficulties which stood in the way of legislation for the Canadas.
Lord Stanleywished to know if he understood the noble Lord to say, that he intended to send out to Canada a bill for the purpose of taking as general a concurrence of opinion as possible in favour of the provisions of it; and, if so, was it his intention to send out for that purpose the bill which had been printed that morning, and delivered to the Members of the House, or to withdraw that, and send out one framed on different principles?
Lord John Russell: The printed bill. Subject dropped.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
Mr. Cayleyinquired whether, with reference to what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, on a former evening, he would be prepared on the part of the Government to propose any measure on the subject of harbours of refuge on the north eastern coast.
Mr. P. Thomsondenied, that anything had fallen from him on a former occasion to justify the hon. Member in supposing that Government had taken up the question. On that occasion he objected to a particular bill, by which tolls were authorised to be levied, being introduced as a private bill, thinking as he did, that a bill giving such an authority ought to have been a public bill. Nor could he give the hon. Gentleman an affirmative answer as to whether the Government would take up the question of harbours of refuge, for no sooner was it suggested, that any one particular spot was fitted for the purpose in any part of the kingdom than up started five or six gentlemen, each maintaining that there was some spot in their
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own immediate neighbourhood more especially adapted to the purpose. He could, however, promise that the Admiralty would give every assistance in their power in perfecting the surveys of the coast.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND.
Upon the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Report of the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill having been read,
Mr. Shawsaid, that up to the stage of the bill at which they had then arrived there had been no discussion of it, and as a great number of hon. Gentlemen at that side of the House were not prepared for having it brought on so soon, he trusted, that the discussion would not then be taken, but that they should proceed with as many of the clauses as they could select upon which there would be no difference of opinion, and that the discussion should be taken at a future period upon whatever day the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) should name. Upon the second reading of the bill some of those who were opposed to it merely stated their reasons for not opposing that stage of the bill, but it had not as yet been fully debated; in fact, it had been very generally believed, until within the last few days, that the Government did intend to proceed with the bill this Session. The bill had been allowed to pass the stage when discussion was generally taken—it had been allowed to be committed pro formâ but now they had before them a bill with several new clauses added, and which was in many respects different from the original bill, and containing a long appendix. This bill now contained 250 clauses, and the appendix contained a great many pages; and he, therefore, hoped that the noble Lord would have no objection to accede to his proposal. It was quite evident, that it would require some time to consider a bill which contained no less than thirty-four new clauses, which introduced changes in the former boundaries, and proposed to introduce a totally new principle with respect to the voting in towns, for the English franchise was he perceived now for the first time proposed to be adopted in that bill. He did not complain, that the noble Lord in thus bringing forward the bill had done anything more than what he had a right to do;

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but, with such a short notice, he hoped that the noble Lord would afford a little additional time to hon. Members on that side of the House, and that he would merely proceed with those clauses upon which there existed no difference of opinion. If those who acted with him, had known in time that the Government were serious in their intention of proceeding with the bill they would have been quite ready to take the discussion of it; but they had not really believed, that it was the serious intention of the Government to proceed with the bill this Session. Lord John Russell could not say, that he thought the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to make any great concession. The right hon. Gentleman said, in the first place, that he was ready to give up the right, which he and his Friends certainly had, of taking a discussion on the question that the Speaker do leave the chair, as had been done on former occasions. But the right hon. Gentleman should recollect, that last year, a different course was pursued with respect to this bill. Previously it had been contended by hon. Gentlemen on the other side, that it was better to extinguish corporations altogether, which was a principle entirely different from that of the present bill. Last year, it was stated by hon. Gentlemen on the other side, that they were prepared to consider the question of corporations founded on an elective or popular principle, and therefore that they differed only upon details. After such a statement, and especially after a discussion and division had taken place upon the second reading of the bill in the present year, he thought that there was no opportunity now for going back to a question which must be considered a dead and bygone question. The question now was as to the details of the bill, and when he proposed that the Speaker should leave the chair to go into Committee on the bill, he felt, that it had been kept a sufficiently long time before the House. It had been introduced in February, and had gone into Committee in April. The right hon. Gentleman said, that he was ready to allow them to go as far as five clauses of the bill; but he would retain the right of objecting to every word and syllable of the 245 clauses that remained. He did not think that the concession was to be received with any extraordinary gratitude. He thought it would be better to go on
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with the bill, and go at once into the clauses upon which there was the greatest difference of opinion—those with respect to the franchise—and leave the more complicated clauses until the right hon. Gentleman was prepared with his amendment. He would either do this, or go regularly through the bill, as the House should think necessary.
Mr. Sergeant Jacksontrusted the noble Lord would not press on the consideration of the bill, which many gentlemen on both sides of the House had believed the Government did not intend to proceed with this session. The bill, as amended, had not been in a printed shape beyond a fortnight or three weeks, and was increased from 216 clauses to 250. There was a series of thirty-four new clauses, beginning at the 184th., all having for their purpose the amendment of the Poor Relief Act. The qualification provided by this bill was different from what it had been in former bills. The qualification established by the bill was an 8l. qualification, but it was to last only for three years. After that, as he collected from the bill, every person who was assessed to the poor-rate, at however small a payment, was to have the borough qualification. If the 8l. qualification was to be permanent, he could understand how one series of clauses should be introduced; but as this qualification was to last for only three years, he could not perceive the object with which they had been inserted in the bill. The bill was, for some cause or other which he could not understand, encumbered with a series of clauses for the amendment of the Poor Relief Act, which ought to be the subject of another bill. He really, therefore, thought that the House ought to be allowed some little time for the consideration of the 250 clauses contained in the bill. He must observe, also, that the powers given to the town-councils by this bill, were extremely formidable. He would boldly state, that under this bill it would be in the power of the town-council to create any number of offices they pleased, to allocate any amount of salary they thought fit, and to supply any deficiency in the borough fund for those purposes by taxing ad libitum the inhabitants of the town. They had also the power of doing that in the most objectionable mode possible, under the act of the 9th of George 4, which gave a graduated scale of taxation. He saw nothing in the bill to prevent the

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corporation of Dublin making the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. O'Connell) lord mayor of Dublin, and giving him a salary of 50.000 l. a-year, which they might make the citizens of Dublin pay. He had stated, that there was one series of clauses, the object of which properly related to the amendment of the Poor-law Act, passed last year. There was also another series, from clause 144 to clause 155, which involved a principle quite new. He was not saying, that these might not be very judicious clauses, but he maintained that they contained a perfectly novel principle, and that they did not appear in the bill as printed in February. Hon. Gentlemen who represented English and Scotch cities and counties, might not be aware how they managed fiscal matters in Ireland. In Ireland, all funds for local purposes were raised by the grand juries, but the bill proposed to transfer this power to the town-council in boroughs. This, therefore, was an innovation upon the practice hitherto established, and required time for consideration. The House should be cautious how it conferred such a power on a town-council, and at any rate it should take care to introduce proper guards against the dangers which might accrue from the town-council being armed with this new authority. He thought, that if this power were conferred upon the town-council, the franchise should at any rate be considerably extended. Votes should be given to the landlords of persons not holding leases, who would not have votes themselves. Again, the 193d section contained a provision, the object of which he confessed he did not understand. It provided, that all tenements in these boroughs should be separately valued. Time, therefore, was required to enable the House to look into that, and see to what purposes the clause might be applied. He would agree entirely to the introduction of provisions which would bring about a perfect valuation. The 6th clause appeared to him to have some particular object in view, as the clause could only apply to the city of Dublin. The clause seemed to point to that particular custom in Dublin which was put forward and established by affidavit in the case known as Hancock's case, in "The King v. the Corporation of Dublin." The corporation claimed to have a veto on the freedom of any individual, and a writ of mandamus was refused
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on the ground that the custom was a reasonable custom. There was no other corporation in Ireland to which such a right belonged; and it was therefore perfecily manifest that this clause had been introduced with a particular object in view. He would not detain the House further.
Viscount Morpethwas inclined to think, from what had already occurred, that not much time would be gained if they proceeded now to discuss the bill in committee. He was quite ready to conduct their political differences in whatever mode would be most likely to advance the public business, and therefore, if the right hon. and learned Recorder still adhered to the objections which he had raised, perhaps he would allow the House to go into committee now, and take some of the unopposed clauses, postponing those on which considerable discussion was expected to arise, it being understood that the points likely to be discussed should be fully considered beforehand, and that notice should be given, if possible, of the amendments which it was proposed to make. If that arrangement were acceded to, he should hope that no further objection would be made to the Speaker's leaving the chair in order that the House might go into committee at once, and address themselves to the points not in dispute.
Mr. O'Connellhoped there would be no preliminary objections previously to their proceeding to business. There was a lawyer in Dublin who undertook to speak during the whole term, and he succeeded, but he had nearly failed towards the end of the term, in consequence of the judges having ceased to interrupt him. When it had been suggested to him to rise to order upon the occasion of the preliminary speech which they had just heard he refused to do so, knowing that it would be a more effectual course of hastening the conclusion not to interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Sir G. Sinclairregretted that when the Government determined to postpone other measures, they had not included this amongst the number. He was sorry to find that this measure had not been given up, for he considered it to be a measure calculated to inflict great injury on the Protestant interest in Ireland. As there seemed to be an understanding at both sides to allow the Bill to go into committee without further discussion, he would not interrupt that understanding by stating

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his objections now. However, on bringing up the report he would be prepared to state at length the reasons why he opposed this bill, and why he felt bound to resist it with increased hostility as a measure which he considered fatal to the interests of the Protestants of Ireland.
House in Committee. Several clauses were agreed to.
House resumed.
Committe to sit again.

SHANNON NAVIGATION.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved the second reading of the Shannon Navigation Bill.
Mr. John Ellisobjected to proceeding further with this bill at present. He entertained strong objections to many of its provisions. He objected to the extensive powers given to the three commissioners appointed under the bill, particularly with respect to the appointment of a number of officers at considerable salaries. He thought that the duties of these commissioners could be very well performed by the Board of Public Works in Ireland. He also objected to the provisions of the bill with respect to making the awards final; and he considered the clauses with respect to grand juries far too stringent. There were many other objections which he entertained to the details of the bill, but which could be more properly stated in Committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas glad that the hon. Member had given him the opportunity of going into an explanation with respect to this bill. Some of the objections which the hon. Gentleman entertained were objections of principle. Now, with respect to the increase of official patronage, the hon. Member was mistaken. The first proposition which he had made was, that the provisions of this bill should be carried into effect under the direction of the Board of Works. In a communication which he had had with General Burgoyne who was at the head of the Board of Works, that gentleman had stated his willingness to undertake any duties which he felt he could perform, and to discharge those duties to the best of his ability, without additional pay. A similar answer had been given by Mr. Griffiths; but both these gentlemen stated, that it would be necessary that they should be assisted by a paid officer in carrying into effect the provisions of the bill, and they suggested to the Treasury the appointment
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of Capt. James, of the Royal Engineers' for that purpose. So that these three individuals would form the commission to carry the bill into effect. With respect to the awards, he thought it would be most inconvenient to reopen these cases, as these awards had been made with great care, and after full examination. With respect to the stringency of the clauses connected with grand juries, he thought that no valid objection could be made on that ground. He felt bound to see that there was such security that the money advanced by Parliament for public works in Ireland should be repaid, and if he was forced to abandon those clauses he would give up the bill.
Mr. Lucasdid not object to the stringent provisions of the bill. He hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would enforce the payment of the loans to Ireland, for he would then do a service to the country, inasmuch as without a proper understanding on this subject public credit must be injured, and the difficulty of getting capital into Ireland increased. What was intended to be a loan should be so called when asked for, and the payment of it should be insisted upon; but where there was no prospect of repayment, it would be much better to call it a grant at once.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that gratuitous commissioners were generally very bad commissioners. The gentlemen whom the right hon. Gentleman had mentioned were in the receipt of very good salaries, and they would do this duty for those salaries. He hoped that the question of compensation would not be opened in Committee—that no discussion would take place as to whether too much or too little had been given. He knew one instance in which the claim was for 30,000 l., and the award was made for 5,000 l. only. He had not brought the case before the House, but he had advised the parties to submit rather than to re-open the case. He thought the provisions of the bill, with regard to the repayment of loans, could not be too stringent. He must tell those who thought that Ireland borrowed money and never paid it, that not one shilling was ever raised on the county-rates of Ireland by a general Act of Parliament but had been repaid, and that with interest at the rate of 5 per cent. When he heard men talk of a matter of bounty, and that the English Members of that House were ready to ad-

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vance money as a bounty, he must say, that he did not think it any bounty at all, but a severe burden upon Ireland, seeing that 5 per cent, must be paid for money raised at 3½ per cent. He challenged any hon. Gentleman to produce a case where the borrowed money had not been repaid to the last farthing.
Mr. Shawconsidered it a great national object, as much to the credit of England as to the advantage of Ireland, that English credit should be made instrumental in promoting Irish objects, and on the other hand there should be a full assurance of repayment. He quite agreed with his hon. Friend behind him, that there was a general impression, and he could not help thinking with the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, that it was an unjust one, that money lent to Ireland was not repaid. There was no instance, he believed, of money being fairly lent without being repaid It was quite useless to refer to loans to the clergy, because every one knew that they were made under circumstances which precluded all just expectation of repayment. He believed that if it had not been for this impression, money would have been promptly advanced for railways in Ireland.
Mr. Humethought himself bound to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon Irish grounds. No doubt the money would be repaid, and had it not been for the mistaken notion which prevailed, the Government would not have been obliged to give up the greatest national work ever undertaken for Ireland—the railways. It was for the benefit of both countries, that the credit of England should be lent to promote public works in Ireland, and he hoped the Government would not fail to introduce the railway scheme early next Session. The inquiry which the Government undertook in Ireland did them great credit. In England twenty-nine millions had been paid, and twelve more were owing for railroads—had such an inquiry taken place here, many millions would have been saved, and the railroads made much more convenient. The Chancellor of the Exchequer could not be too particular in taking powers for enforcing the repayment of the money, as it would do benefit both to England and Ireland, in doing away with the prejudice at present existing against lending money for public works.
Mr. Sergeant Jacksonsaid, he felt very much the vast importance of the Shannon
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navigation to Ireland and to this country, and also of railroads. He was not aware whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware of it, but there was an impression abroad, that the Shannon Navigation Bill was a job, and that the right hon. Gentleman had nothing but a job in view. He was glad to hear, however, from the right hon. Gentleman his declaration, that he did not mean to pay any other commissioner than the one who must necessarily be very much employed in the work, and that the bill was not got up for the purpose of creating patronage for the Government. As he had opposed the plan for railroads in Ireland, he thought it right to say, that upon hearing the subsequent statement of the noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, the objections he had entertained were entirely removed by what he understood to be the view of the noble Lord. He, therefore, could not but express a hope, that the Government would press forward their amended project early next Session, when he trusted they would receive general support.
Mr. S. O'Brientrusted, that the noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, would not even now finally abandon his railway scheme, but would take the sense of the House upon it; if so, he was sure the noble Lord would now carry it by a large majority. With respect to the bill before the House, it had his cordial support.
Viscount Morpethwould not now enter into the merits of the railway question; he only hoped his right hon. Friend would be more successful in his scheme of water carriage than he (Lord Morpeth) had been in that of land carriage. He had involuntarily been compelled to abandon it, and he could only say, that if he had been allowed to prosecute the measure, he was sure he could have satisfied the hon. and learned Member for Bandon, that any notion of patronage was as unfounded in that instance as it had been proved to be unfounded with respect to the bill in the hands of his right hon. Friend.
Mr. Wyseexpressed his regret, that the; Irish Railway Bill had been given up almost without consideration, and he trusted, if the noble Lord did not renew the question, some hon. Member on one side of the House or the other would do so, and thus afford an opportunity not only of discussing the merits of the measure, but of clearing the Irish people from the aspersions which had been cast upon them. He concurred with the hon. Member for Kilkenny, in

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thinking, that if the plan of the noble Lord had been acted on in England, large sums might have been saved in the construction of railways—the monopolies by which he feared the country would, ere long, be embarrassed, would not have been created, and the public might have secured those profits which now went into the hands of private individuals.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, he should have been glad if the Government had not abandoned their scheme with reference to Irish rail-Ways, if it had only been for the purpose of affording a comparison between railroads constructed by the Government and those undertaken by private individuals, and of thus ascertaining which was most calculated to promote the public interests. With this view, he hoped early next Session the Government would renew their scheme.
Mr. Sheil, in reference to the provisions in the bill before the House on the subject of awards and compensation, said, that although there might be no suspicion of bias in the commissioners, who. without the intervention of juries, were to make the awards, still, as they might be wrong in one case out of a hundred, he thought there ought to be an appeal allowed.
Bill read a second time.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
House in Committee on the Public Works (Ireland) Bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, his present object was to move a resolution on which to found a clause, to make an application of a sum of 50,000 l., voted last year, for the purposes specified in the Acts 1 and 2 William 4th, and the 1st of Victoria. The right hon. Gentleman moved a resolution to that effect.
Mr. Humeinquired how much of the 50,000 l. remained to be appropriated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the original sum voted was applicable to the purposes of both the statutes he had alluded to, but that this sum of 50,000 l. had been limited to the purposes of the first of those statutes. The object now was to appropriate it to both. He was not at present able to state whether any portion had been appropriated. Speaking from recollection, he should say none; but in a future stage of the bill he would be prepared to answer the question.
Mr. Lucasdid not expect this question would have been brought forward to-night, and, therefore, could not be blamed if he was very much astray as to the purport of
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the returns on this subject which had been furnished to the House. He had, however, a very strong recollection that these monies had been lent by the Government in every possible variety as to the mode of loan. There had in some cases been grants, in others loans, in proportion to the amount of tithe commutation; and without being prepared to state what ought to be done in such matters, he thought he had a right to suggest that there ought to be some more fixed principle in these transactions.
Captain Bolderosaid, he saw three money bills on the orders of the day for Ireland, exclusive of the project for advancing money for railways, the report on which had been withdrawn. He wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much money he intended to advance for Ireland this year in the shape of loans and grants, and how much he intended to give for England.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas glad the hon. Member had asked the question. The hon. Gentleman had asked the question with the view of insinuating that extravagant aid was given to Ireland by means of the three bills now in progress. The first bill, the Loan Bill, though it had an alarming sound, and was calculated to produce on the minds of English Members an apprehension of gross inequality of aid as regarded Ireland, was to enable a charitable society to lend sums not exceeding 5l. to needy persons, and took nothing from the public purse. The second bill was to have the authority of an Act of Parliament for the appropriation of a sum which had already been granted. And the third bill, the Shannon Navigation Bill, was a subject which had been thrice under the consideration of the House, and was a subject entered upon during the Administration of the Earl of Liverpool, and which had been before Parliament ever since.
Captain Bolderonever heard a question so neatly avoided in his life. The question he had put was this—what was the sum which was advanced to Ireland by loans and grants, and what the sum advanced to England?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad told the hon. Member that the first bill was a charitable bill, and nothing at all was advanced by it, that by the second nothing was voted; and when he looked at this grant of 50,000 l., that it was taken from a sum of 500,000 l., of which a sum of 460,000 l. was appropriated

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to England, he thought he ought not to complain.
Mr. S. O'Brienthought the Irish people were entitled to this meagre grant when the sum of 70,000 l. had been granted the other day for building up her Majesty's stables at Windsor Castle.
Vote agreed to.—House resumed.

SUGAR DUTIES.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved the third reading of the Sugar Duties Bill.
Mr. Ewartsaid, the bill had been postponed on a former occasion, when it had been in order, and, as he was not prepared then to enter upon its discussion, he hoped it might be further postponed to another day.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad postponed the bill because the hon. Member (Mr. Ewart) and the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets were not in their places. He should have brought it on had they been present, and as they were now present, he thought he was entitled to bring it on.
Mr. Ewart had only known that it was to be brought on about two hours.
On the question, "that the bill be read a third time,"
Mr. Ewartsaid it was a subject full of statistics, and he was not prepared to go into the question. The object of the motion of which he had given notice, and which he was sorry at that time to bring before the House, was, in the first place, to show to the House the high price to which sugar would probably arrive at in this country; and, in the second place, to call their attention to the great advantages which might result to this country if they would so far modify the laws which protected colonial sugar as to admit the sugar which was the produce of free labour, as distinguished from sugar which was the produce of slavery. The House might probably be aware that petitions had been presented to that House from the large commercial communities of Liverpool, Glasgow, and other places, in favour of that reduction. Our exports to the Brazils were of very large amount, and our imports thence were very limited. The objection of the friends of humanity to the admission of the sugar of the Brazils was, that it was the produce of slave labour. He confessed he was so far of their opinion. He wished to reduce the duties on sugar, cocoa, coffee, and other articles of tropical production in those countries where they
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were produced by free labour in contradistinction to slave-labour production. He would draw attention to the enormous price which the people of this country were obliged to pay for sugar in the shape of sugar duties and protection of colonial sugar. He dared to say, that many hon. Gentlemen in that House were aware that the difference of price between colonial sugar and foreign sugar was full 18 s. per cwt. By the last returns, the average price of British plantation sugar was, 41 s. 2¼d. exclusive of the duty of 24 s., while good Manilla sugar was selling at 23 s. 6d. per cwt. a difference of no less than 76 per cent. He thought that the people of this country ought not to be called upon to pay the large sum which they did in the protective tax on sugar, considering the large amount of 20,000,000 l. which they had paid, and he thought properly paid, four years ago, in compensation to the planters. It had struck him as not being disadvantageous to institute a comparison between the consumption of sugar in these countries and the consumption of those articles with which sugar was generally used, such as tea, coffee, and cocoa; and the result of his inquiries was to show, that while the consumption of those articles had considerably increased, that of sugar, instead of proportionally increasing, had absolutely retrograded. The consumption of cocoa had increased very considerably, that of tea appeared to be much less on the increase. From authentic documents to which he had had access, it appeared that, in 1801, the consumption of tea was 1lb. 80 z. for each individual in the country. In the present year, it did not amount to more than 1lb. 50 z. for each individual. In 1801, there was not more than loz., upon the average, of coffee consumed by each individual. In 1811, the average was 80 z.; in 1821, about the same; while, in 1831, it had arisen to about lib. 50 z.; and, in 1838, it was 1lb. 60 z. He would now turn to sugar, which presented a much less favourable appearance. Each individual consumed, in 1801, about 301b; in 1811, about the same; and, in consequence of the increase of the duty, the average amount consumed by each individual had decreased to 191b. These results appeared still more remarkable in the case of Ireland. The saying of Mr. Huskisson, in 1829, was still strictly true—that above one-third of the inhabitants of this country could not have sugar with their coffee. The sugar refiners had long been aware of the very inadequate

1023
demand for their goods. It was true, that they had derived some advantage from the introduction of East India sugar; it was, however, but limited in its extent. The Drawback Bill of last year was a good bill as far as it went, and the equalization of the duties payable on East and West India sugar was also beneficial in its operation. He desired, however, to see the same advantage extended through all those portions of the East Indies, which, though not nominally British possessions, were such in reality. He was anxious that the sugar trade should be open to every country be sides where sugar was the produce of free labour. He was anxious to see the gates of commerce thrown wide open, and invidious distinctions put an end to. Thirty years ago the cultivation of sugar was unknown in Siam. In 1821 the produce was only one-tenth of what it was now. Siam was capable of producing sugar to the extent of 15,000 tons annually, and all the produce of free labour. The export of sugar from Java had, of late years, very considerably increased, and he was not making the calculation too low, when he stated, that that island would be capable of supplying sugar to the extent of 20,000 tons per annum, all the produce of free Javanese or Chinese labour. China could export 6,000 tons, and Cochin China 1,000 tons. The total amount of sugar, the produce of free labour, which this country could command, would be very considerable. He looked forward to the day when sugar would also be imported from the coast of Africa, and when free labour might be universally substituted for the odious bonds of slavery. He believed that that infamous traffic was not to be put down by armed vessels, but by commerce. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving, "that sugar, the produce of free labour, be imported into this country upon payment of the same rate of duty which is charged upon sugar the produce of the British colonies."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas aware, that his hon. Friend, the Member for Wigan, had taken this opportunity of introducing the subject of his motion in the discharge of a public duty, rather than for the purpose of interrupting an annual bill; which must needs be passed, and though he should answer his hon. Friend but shortly, it was not from any intention of offering the smallest disrespect to him. The suggestions which his hon. Friend had made were by no means to be considered so trivial as to be undeserving of remark. The
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subject, however, involved many more considerations than those to which his hon. Friend had referred. To moot it was to open the whole question of our colonial policy; and it was not just to argue as his hon. Friend had done with respect to sugar, without considering as well the whole obligations which we were under to our colonies as the obligations which those colonies were under with respect to us. For one, he was not prepared to say, that the possession of our colonies was so much a matter of indifference, that we did prudently to take any one branch of our colonial commerce and discuss it, as his hon. Friend had done, in reference only to the question of supply and demand. However, he was glad to hear that the steps which had been taken by Government for the extension of trade, and the facilitating supply had met with approbation. His hon. Friend had said, that the people of this country looked back with repentance on the grant of 20,000,000 l. sterling to the West Indian proprietors. He did not think it was so. But he believed the people of this country would be very ready to look back with repentance on that step, if they thought that the planters failed in the duties arising out of their part of the contract. At present, however, he did not believe, that the people of England repented of having earned that distinguishing mark which separated them, as regarded humanity, from the nations of the earth. Nor did he think that the course recommended by his hon. Friend would, if adopted, fulfil his hon. Friend's expectations, in inducing foreign countries to follow our example in putting an end to slavery in their dominions. He would make no more than this single remark, that whenever the supply from our colonies should fall below the demand of the country, it would be incumbent upon the Government to consider the whole subject.
Mr. Claysaid, the whole of the sugar refiners in the metropolis were interested in this question. The sugar refiners of England possessed advantages over those of the Continent because they could not only export their own manufactures but they could even taken away from the home consumer for that purpose. He agreed in the policy of removing the premiums on the exportation of refined sugar, and approved of the measure that was introduced on the subject last year; but he believed, that the result was, that only about one half of the bounty had been taken off, and that there was still a concealed bounty equivalent to

1025
a premium of six shillings a hundred weight. The fact was that the quantity of sugar produced in our colonies did not afford a sufficient supply for home consumption, and the people of England were at present paying a monopoly price for that article. Thus the contingency had arisen in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the whole question must receive the attention of the House and the Government, and when it would be necessary to come to some determination. He could not help remarking, on the subject of the produce of slave countries, that it was a most extraordinary thing that, without one word of remonstrance from the opponents of slave-grown produce, they took upwards of 400,000,0001bs. of slave grown cotton every year, as well as an enormous amount of slave-grown tobacco, while the utmost outcry was raised against their receiving either sugar or coffee from slave countries. He contended that they were bound to give the advantage to the people of England of using such sugar and coffee as they could get at less than a monopoly price. He supported the motion of his hon. Friend, because he thought that it was clear that the supply of colonial sugar and coffee was not sufficient for the consumption of this country; and secondly, because the colonies should not enjoy a monopoly in the home market against free grown sugar.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonconsidered the subject as one of very great importance, and deserving the most serious attention. Before, however, he went into the general qustion, he must observe that his hon. Friend who spoke last was misinformed, in stating that there was at present a bounty on refined sugar, equivalent to six shillings per hundred weight. The return on which he had proceeded when he introduced his bill on the subject, was taken in such a manner as to ensure the most exact amount, and care had been taken to prevent anything being given in the shape of bounty. This calculation was also made before there was anything like a short supply of sugar in the market, and they had also taken the prices of sugar in foreign markets, as well as the price of East India sugar, so that the utmost care was taken to prevent a drawback being given in the shape of a bounty. There was an advantage, however, which the West Indians enjoyed from having their sugar refined in this country, which could hardly be designated a bounty, namely, that they obtained a higher price for the treacle which was obtained from the sugar in un-
1026
dergoing the process of refining than they could get in a foreign country. This was the advantage that they got from having their sugar refined here rather than elsewhere; but there was no bounty paid. Considerable delusion prevailed in this country on the subject of slave-grown produce, as contradistinguished from free-grown produce. He trusted that the country would not adopt the notion that they could separate in their, commerce with foreign nations free-grown produce from slave-produce. He protested against the comparison which had been made by his hon. Friend respecting the slave-grown cotton from the United States. It was utterly delusive to talk of the consumption of that article in this country, as if it could get sufficient cotton, the produce of free labour, from other places. His hon. Friend said, "how strange it is that you listen to the outcry against taking slave-grown sugar, while you take slave-grown cotton to the amount of millions annually, and slave-grown tobacco, from which you get 3,000,000 l sterling a year in the shape of duties." For his own part he most cordially wished that slavery everywhere was at an end. But what was the system of policy which this country had been going upon in her commercial treaties with almost all foreign countries for a great number of years past? We had entered into treaties putting these countries on the footing of the most favoured nations, on certain equivalent advantages being given to our commerce. Supposing they adopted the proposition of the hon. Member for Wigan, what would the United States do? They would come forward with the treaty in their hands, and would say that the produce of that country must be put upon exactly the same footing as the sugar and coffee produce in Siam, Java, or Hayti, or they would say that you did not put them on the footing of the most favoured nations, and therefore you violated your engagements with them. The Brazils, also, would hold up your treaty in your face, and would say "that our produce is our produce, and you have no right to inquire whether it is the result of the labour of one man or of another man; but take it you must, or be guilty of a breach of faith according to your treaty." This country has entered into several of these treaties with foreign nations, and Acts of Parliament have been passed concerning them, and placing the produce of those nations upon the footing he had described; and they would one and all say that by taking such a step as that involved in the

1027
proposition of his hon. Friend you not only broke faith with them, but you also interfered with the domestic relations of their country. With reference to the importance of the question, as a general question, he did not for a moment deny it. He admitted that it was a matter of very great importance, and was one which would be forced upon the attention of Parliament and of the country within a very short period. In the first place, this was a matter which would force itself upon the attention of the Government as connected with the treaty with the Brazils. The present treaty was only of a temporary character, and would expire in 1842, and if we entered into fresh relations with that important State, this subject must necessarily be considered. The exports to that country were upwards of 4,000,000 l. a-year of British manufactures. This was the most important trade that we earned on with any part of the world, with the exception of the United States of America. The produce of the Brazils were almost entirely confined to sugar and coffee, and when we came to the period when the treaty was about to expire, this subject must force itself upon the attention of the House. The other branch of the subject would also receive a matter of deep importance and consideration, namely, the short supply of colonial sugar. Up to last year, the produce of our West-India colonies was considerably more than sufficient for the supply of this country. Practically, therefore, the West-India colonists enjoyed no monopoly, though apparently and nominally they did so Since that period, there had been a considerable falling off in the produce of our colonies. Again—the growing population of this country required a larger supply of colonial produce, and there was this deficient supply of the West-Indies to meet this demand; and within a short time it would be necessary to pay an extraordinary price, when what was formerly an apparent monopoly, would be felt as a real monopoly. But at the present moment, this was the case with respect to coffee. The duty on coffee had been reduced nine years ago by Mr. Huskisson, and at a more recent period by himself. Coffee was most extensively consumed in this country; and notwithstanding the lowness of the duty a much higher price was paid for it here than on the continent. The produce consumed here was almost entirely colonial, and, therefore, with the high price, it was obvious that a real monopoly existed. The Government
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was deeply impressed with this important subject, and it was obvious that great attention must be paid to this point, as well as to the other subjects to which he had adverted. It was important that they should look at this question—that they should regard the different interests that would be involved, by blinking the consideration of it even for a time; but he was satisfied that it must be forced on the attention of the Government and the Legislature, if not by the wants of the people of this country, at any rate by the treaty with the Brazils; and he trusted that it would be met fairly, and the difficulty dealt with in the way that a matter of such importance deserved, when it was ripe for consideration.
Mr. Humehad heard, with great satisfaction, the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, and trusted that the matter would not be unnecessarily postponed. At the present time there were only two-thirds of the average supply of colonial produce from the West Indies, and the people of England were called upon to pay the same amount as if they had a full supply. Therefore it would be most absurd to put off the consideration of the question till 1842. He admitted that he could not draw that distinction which had been made by his hon. Friend, the Member for Wigan, between slave produce and free produce, and he thought it would be inexpedient to make such a distinction in our commercial relations. It was obvious, however, that the subject must be taken up next year by her Majesty's Government. It was clear, therefore, that his hon. Friend would not gain anything by going to a division. For that reason, he trusted he would not press his motion.
Mr. Hodgson Hindewas fully aware of the importance of the subject, and was glad it had been brought under the attention of the House. But he was sure, that neither his constituents, nor the country at large, would be satisfied with drawing a distinction between sugar and cotton, the produce of slave countries or not.
Mr. Thorndytrusted that the subject would not be pressed upon the present occasion, for he was satisfied, after this discussion, that the whole question must come under the consideration of Parliament in a better form next year. With the existing treaties with foreign countries, and with the Acts of Parliament, confirming those treaties; any Brazilian importer of sugar could go to the customs,

1029
and compel the officers to take the same duty on that produce as on sugar, the production of free labour, supposing this proposition of his hon. Friend to be adopted. In Java and Hayti, the price of the best coffee, at the present moment, was from Ad. to 5d. a pound—the duty on it was 6d. a a pound. It was sold in this country at from 2s. to 3s. a pound, or even upwards. It was obvious, therefore, that the price was so high in consequence of the monopoly given to the West-Indies. The taxes of this country were of a very great amount, and very burthensome; but they did not add so much to the increased price of articles of consumption, as the keeping up of these monopolies. The proposition his hon. Friend had made, was only a half measure, as he was satisfied that the distinction between free and slave produce, could not be kept up for any length of time. His right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he did not look for any speedy termination of slavery in the United States. He confessed that he did, and he believed that there was a very large and powerful party in that country, who were most zealous and anxious to carry it into effect, and a most distinguished writer in that country, whom he was proud and happy to call his friend, namely, Dr. Channing, had lent his powerful assistance to the furtherance of this object.
Mr. M. Philipsthought that it was the duty of the House to take all the steps in its power to lower the price of cotton and sugar in this country, which were necessaries of life. A most valuable trade was going on with the Brazils, and he trusted that every step would be taken to afford every encouragement to it.
Mr. Ewartwould not press his motion.
Bill read a third time and passed.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Patent Laws Amendment.—Read a second time:—Spiritual Services in Parishes.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Bute, the Earls of Rosebery, and Hardwicke, and Lord Redesdale, from a number of places, for a Uniform Penny Postage.—By the Bishops of London, and Exeter, from three places, against the Church Discipline Bill.—By the Earl of Zetland, from Orkney, for Church Extension in Scotland.—By the Bishop of London, from two places, against the Government plan for National Education.

BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
The Marquess of Lansdowne, in moving the further consideration of this bill, felt it his duty to call their Lordships' attention to the amendments he proposed. It was intended to extend the operation of the bill to what were technically called "forbearances," and to that there seemed little objection, but a doubt was yesterday entertained whether floating securities ought also to be included. The bill, as it had passed the third reading, included advances on Exchequer-bills, public annuities, East India Stock and Bonds, Bank Stock, and South Sea bills, and he proposed to add the words "or upon any goods or merchandizes, or warrants, or bills of lading." This amendment proceeded on the same principle as the clause that parties should have every additional advantage that could be fairly afforded to them for negotiating assistance. Four houses might require relief—the first might be enabled to offer a large mass of Exchequer-bills—the second might offer a large mass of South

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Sea Slock—the third might have many casks of sugar—and the fourth might have warrants representing a large amount of sugar; and would it be expedient to deny relief to the two last classes? The object of the bill would not, indeed, be attained, unless facilities were afforded, to enable parties in want of assistance, to pledge every sort of floating security. It was impossible fairly to estimate the value of such advances. One of the first houses in the country, during a crisis a few years ago, required assistance. There was not a house that was established on a firmer foundation, but, in consequence of the sudden operation of the crisis, it was upon the point of giving way, and was only prevented, in consequence of advances from the Bank of England, who made them without hesitation or doubt, and so saved, not only that particular house from ruin, but many of the houses in the county of Lancaster. In his opinion, they ought to enlarge the operation of this bill, so as to include every species of security.
Amendments agreed to, and the bill passed.

GOVERNMENT OF JAMAICA—SECOND MEASURE.
Mr. Burge and Mr. Mereweatherwere heard at the Bar, as counsel against the Government of Jamaica Bill.*
* For these and the preceding speeches, on the same subject, see Appendix at the end of the Session.