Sitting of 14 February 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Bankrupts Estates (Scotland); Factories Amendment.
Petitions presented. By Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND, from Ossett (York), by Sir GEORGE STAUNTON, from Portsmouth, by Mr. ORD, from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, by Mr. RICH, from Knaresborough, by Colonel DAVIES, from Worcester, by Mr. HUME, from an Agricultural Parish in Suffolk, Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. W. ROCHE, from Limerick, by Mr. DARBY, from four places, by Mr. CHRISTOPHER, from Henley-upon-Thames, and other places, against the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. O'CONNELL, from Dublin, for a real Union, or none at all.—By Sir R. INGLIS, from Whitchurch, against any system of National Education not founded upon the principles of the Church of England.—By Mr. CRESSWELL, from certain Merchants of Liverpool, against the Custom-house exacting a greater duty on the Export of Woollens than allowed by Law.

CANADA—MARTIAL LAW.
Mr. Leaderpresented a petition from Louis H. La Fontaine and Charles Mondelet, two advocates practising at the bar in Montreal. They stated, that they derived their sole subsistence from the exercise of their profession—that amongst the sacred rights granted them by this country, personal liberty was the one which they most valued—that in consequence of some late acts they were afraid that right was to be altogether taken from them, in consequence of the flagrant abuse of power to which they had been subjected—that they, with several other persons, were forcibly torn from their families on the 4th of November last, by persons calling themselves the agents of Government, and dragged to prison by her Majesty's troops, without any warrant, without any accusation against them, and, as they believed, with the knowledge or by the orders of Sir John Colborne; they stated further, that it was publicly believed, that a carte blanche had been given to many persons, to denounce as traitors any of her Majesty's subjects in the colony, thus furnishing to enmity an opportunity of wreaking its revengeful feelings on the liberty of the subject—that having been thus arrested they were de-
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tained in prison till the 13th December when the gaoler ordered them to go out—that they had written a letter to Sir John Colborne, demanding what was the accusation against them, and demanding to be brought to trial, but that to that letter no answer was returned. They stated, further, that Commissioners had been appointed to examine into this cause; that with their knowledge these two gentlemen had been detained in prison, without any occasion, and this with the knowledge of the Executive. They stated they had no legal resource against this course, as since the execution of the order for their arrest, they found an Act of Indemnity had been passed, which deprived them of the power of bringing the offenders to trial before the ordinary tribunals. They asked for that justice from the Imperial Parliament which they were unable to obtain in their own country. They stated further, that, being sincerely attached to the happiness of their country, they had another duty to fulfil, which was, to denounce to the House the devastation of their country by the troops of her Majesty and by the volunteers. They further denounced, besides, the plundering and devastation which bad taken place, outrages still more revolting, committed by the soldiers and volunteers, on the unoffending females of the country. [An Hon. Member: The hon. Member for Westminster is going beyond the line agreed on in making so long a statement.] He was merely reading the prayer of the petition, which he had a right to do. The hon. Gentlemen seemed inclined to gag them, but he should proceed with the petition, which further stated, that the petitioners complained of the suspension of the laws before the proclamation of Martial Law, and also of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; and that the country was under military and despotic rule, of a nature to drive the population of these provinces to despair, and of which the object appeared to be to destroy their institutions and their language, and drive them from their country. They prayed the House to take the petition into their serious consideration, and grant them that redress which was so much needed. He should call the attention of the House to the subject on the 28th of February.

THE NAVY—SIR JOHN BARROW.
Sir E. Codringtonsaid, seeing the hon. Secretary for the Admiralty in his place,

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I wish to know whether a letter which has been in circulation, signed by the Under Secretary of the Admiralty, has received the sanction of the Board of Admiralty, or is to be received as expressing only the individual opinion of the person whose signature it bears? It is a letter which uses very strong terms, and naval men are anxious to know from whom it really proceeds.
Mr. C. Wood: I conceive that the question which has been put to me by the hon. and gallant Gentleman refers, not to a letter, but to the supplemental chapter of Sir J. Barrow's Life of Lord Anson. If so, I cannot imagine how any person who has read the preface to that work can put such a question to me as that which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has asked. Sir J. Barrow states, that book was published, not only without the authority of the Board of Admiralty, but without the knowledge of any member of the Board. I can distinctly confirm that statement, not only for myself, but for every member of the Board. I had no idea what were to be the contents of it until Sir J. Barrow put the printed book into my hands. I have no hesitation in saying, that many of the opinions there expressed by Sir J. Barrow are not approved of by the Admiralty. It may be convenient, that I should take this opportunity of stating, that as to the facts contained in that work, on looking at them, I perceive that they are such as may be collected from documents printed in this and other countries; and though there may be inaccuracies in some parts, the facts in the main are substantially correct.
Captain Gordon: I beg leave to ask whether the pamphlet published yesterday, as an answer to another publication, was printed under the authority of the Board of Admiralty.
Mr. C. Wood: My answer to this question is precisely the same as that which I gave to the first which was put—namely, that the publication has taken place without the authority or knowledge of the board. Captain Hardy is now in this country, and the first intimation I received of this production, as of the other, was, when a printed copy was put into my hands by the author.
Subject dropped.

CORN-LAWS.
Lord J. Russell: With regard to the question put to me the other
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evening by the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) as to the course I mean to take with respect to the motion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, I have to state, that if the motion which it is intended to submit to the House, be in the words of the notice as they appear on the book, I should have no great difficulty in answering it. But as the words of the notice are—"Motion to receive evidence at the Bar of the House, with a view to a total repeal of the laws restricting the importation of foreign grain"—and, as I understand the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Villiers) does not mean to make the motion in that shape, I think it would be convenient to the House if he would state what it is he does mean to move.
Mr. Villiers: I am extremely sorry that any mistake should have arisen on the subject of my notice; but as there seems to be a variation between the notice and what I intend to move, I shall state what my notice was meant to be:—"That I shall present a petition or petitions to this House on the subject of the Corn-laws, alleging certain things, and that I shall on Tuesday move, that the allegations of the petitions be supported by evidence at the bar of the House.
Lord J. Russell: As the hon. Gentleman has now stated what his motion really is, and as it only refers to an inquiry to be made into the operation of certain laws, I don't think it would be fair to the hon. Gentleman, or respectful to the motion which he intends to submit, if I were to make any declaration on the part of the Government before it comes on.
Sir E. Knatchbull: The course now adopted by the noble Lord, is one which, as regards the House and the public, and particularly as regards the persons directly interested in this question, is decidedly unfair. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Villiers) gave notice on the first day of the Session, that he would make a specific motion in the House. The notice was printed with the votes of the House for some days, and for aught we knew, the discussion would have come on in that form, if it had not been for the question, which my right hon. Friend (Sir Robert Peel) put to the noble Lord the other evening. I don't think the noble Lord has been treated fairly; but I am also of opinion that the noble Lord has not now treated the House and the country fairly by refusing to declare the course which he

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means to take. The hon. Gentleman has now stated distinctly, what his motion will be, and the House and the public have a right to know the intention of the Government respecting it. I call, therefore, on the noble Lord to re-consider his opinion, and to state whether it be the intention of the Government to oppose this motion, that we may have an opportunity of knowing whether our opposition is to be directed against the noble Lord, or against the hon. Member for Wolverhampton.
Mr. Villiers: the right hon. Baronet has not correctly represented the course which I have taken. I gave notice, that I should present a petition on one night, and, that I should make a motion subsequently to support it by evidence. I have to regret, that the written notice which I gave to the clerk did not precisely correspond with that form; but I beg to state, that on the second night after the meeting of Parliament I stated the course which I meant to take in so distinct a manner, as entirely to relieve me or the noble Lord from the charge of taking the House by surprise. The question was put to me by the hon. Gentleman near the right hon. Baronet (Mr. Christopher), and I was a little surprised to hear that hon. Gentleman cheer the right hon. Baronet, when I recollected the distinct answer which I gave to him on that occasion; namely, that it was not my intention to raise the general question of the repeal of the Corn-laws on that day when I meant to move, that evidence should be heard in support of the allegations of the petitions which I should present; but, that I should take care to give due notice to the House when I should submit a direct motion on the general subject. I never intimated to the House, and never meant, that it should be implied, that I intended to do more than move, that the statements of certain petitioners should be supported by evidence at the bar of the House.
Sir R. Peel: I confess there is no ground of complaint against the hon. Gentleman for having done what was not fair. The hon. Gentleman most certainly gave notice, that he should present certain petitions, and that he should afterwards move to have them supported by evidence. These petitions, it appeared, prayed for a total repeal of the Corn-laws, and the hon. Gentleman proposed on Tuesday to summon evidence to the bar in support of the
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allegations of the petitioners. No one could be taken by surprise by the course of the hon. Gentleman. When I asked the question which has been referred to, the hon. Gentleman said, he would persevere in his motion, and that motion I understood to be to have evidence at the bar, having a tendency to prove the necessity of a repeal of the Corn-laws. But the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) declared, that it was his intention to oppose that motion. On Tuesday last I asked the noble Lord whether he could state, that he should make any motion as an amendment to that of the hon. Gentleman? The noble Lord made no objection to that question; but gave a distinct assurance, that he would answer it on a future day; and I never was more surprised, I must say, than when I heard the noble Lord state, that he did not think himself called on to announce the course which the Government meant to take until Tuesday, the day on which the motion is to be made.
Mr. Villiers: The petition has not yet been presented; and I feel bound to state that the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) asked me what was its prayer, and I told him, to be heard by evidence at the bar of that House. That the petitioners alleged that they are aggrieved by the Corn-laws, I do not deny; but their prayer is to be allowed to prove their individual grievances at the bar of the House. That is a very different petition from one for a total repeal of the Corn-laws.
Lord John Russell: The right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) has no doubt stated correctly, the impression on his mind from the conversation on Tuesday; but a totally different impression was certainly left on my mind. I understood the right hon. Baronet to refer to an answer which I had given to another hon. Gentleman, in which I stated, that there were grounds of precedent and others for opposing a motion, that evidence be received at the bar, but that I would not give any pledge as to the course to be taken in this respect, and then to ask me whether on that day, I was prepared to state the course I meant to pursue with regard to the hon. Gentleman's motion. I replied, that I could not give an answer then, but that I should be prepared to do so to-day. Now if I were about to propose an Amendment, or to take a course different from that of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, otherwise than by giving a simple affirmative or negative to his

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motion, I think it would not be unfair to ask me what that Amendment was; but on considering the question of the right hon. Baronet, it certainly did forcibly occur to me, that it would not be fair to the hon. Gentleman, when he was about to bring forward a motion, which he might be able to support by sufficient reasons and argument, if I were to declare some days beforehand the positive course which I had determined to pursue with regard to it. The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Kent seems to think, that a very unfair course; but, Sir, I have yet to hear a correction from you as to that course; and I have yet to learn, that it is my duty several days before a motion is made, to say, that I have fully considered the question, and that no reason and argument which can be urged can induce me to take other than the course which I declare beforehand, and which positively precludes all investigation when the motion is brought forward. I may have made up my own mind with respect to the question; but if I have, I most certainly still think, that the course would not be a fair one to the hon. Gentleman, or to the numerous petitioners who have asked, that evidence should be heard at the bar, if I were now to prejudge the question, and endeavour to induce others to determine beforehand, on not giving their support to this motion. Now, as to any advantage which may be taken of the hon. Gentlemen opposite by this course, if they take their measures exactly as if I were about to give a direct support to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, it is impossible that they can suffer the slightest disadvantage from my motion, whatever it may be.
Sir E. Knatchbull: I can't even guess what the noble Lord means to propose. I apprehend, that I must labour under a mistake as to the conversation of Tuesday night; but I understood the noble Lord distinctly to promise, that he would state to-night the course which he meant to take, and I did believe, that on this night he would have redeemed his pledge.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND.)
On the motion of Viscount Morpeth, the following extract from the Queen's Speech was read:
"The reform and amendment of the Municipal Corporations of Ireland are essential to the interests of that part of my dominions."
The noble Lord then said—Sir, in moving for leave to bring in a bill for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland, whatever may be the importance with which in my consideration the proposition is invested, or however desirable its adoption may be, it cannot certainly claim the attention of the House on the score of novelty. This I believe, that if I succeed in inducing the House to give me leave to bring in this bill, it will be the fifth measure of the kind which has been introduced here, all of which, except the very first, have been attended with very long—I will not presume to say tedious—discussions within, and protracted altercations between both Houses of Parliament. The grounds, therefore, on which this measure rests must be sufficiently familiar to every person whom I have the honour to address. They were originally laid down with great minuteness in the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the state of the Municipal Corporations in Ireland, who detailed with great research and accuracy their views respecting the abuses and imperfections of the existing system, and the remedies which they recommended as most proper to be adopted for their correction. And since that time up to this day, so far as I am aware, those statements have neither been impeached nor questioned. But what would make it eminently superfluous in me to dilate at any length upon those grounds is the course which has been adopted by the great party mustered on the benches opposite, and assembled in still more formidable numbers elsewhere, who have in fact consented, on two separate occasions to the destruction, extinction, and alienation of all the existing corporate institutions in Ireland; and upon one other occasion, when the Bill was before us last year, they also did consent to their entire recasting and remodelling. I, therefore, feel, Sir, that it would be more than idle and impertinent in me if I were now to attempt to dispute grounds not only so often trodden, but which have been absolutely conceded; and that I should be doing what is much more in accordance, not only with my own pleasure, but with the pleasure of the House at large, if I confine myself exclusively to the mention of the points of difference in the details, and the modes of carrying the principles of the measure into effect,

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whereby the Bill which I ask permission of the House for leave to bring in may be distinguished from what has before been mutually agreed on between both Houses of Parliament. And in doing so I shall only premise that while it is our strong wish to carry as far as possible, in all essential points, the assimilation of the law in this country and in Ireland, yet, wherever previous discussions in Parliament have shown that there is, on less prominent points, any neutral ground on which we can meet without sacrificing the essential interests—without sacrificing the origin and pervading spirit of the whole measure—the assimilation of the institutions of the two countries, in these cases we are prepared to embrace any such additional chance of promoting agreement and ensuring the ultimate success of the Bill. The main point of difference which existed between the two Houses at the end of last Session was the amount of the franchise which it was proposed should be exercised for municipal purposes in all the towns in which corporations were still to be left under the provisions of the Bill. And it will be remembered the House of Lords proposed "that this should be given by the occupation for twelve months of a tenement of the value of 10 l. made up of the value at which it is rated to the relief of the poor, to the amount of landlord's repairs and landlord's insurance. The Commons proposed the occupation for six months of a tenement rated at 8l. (being such sum that one quarter addition, allowed for the expense of repairs, insurance, and other expenses, if any, necessary to keep it of that value, should make it amount to 10 l.) It is proposed now to adhere to the franchise proposed last year by the Commons, with an additional provision that after three years, rating the English franchise shall be substituted." Now in the present Bill we adhere to the franchise of 8l. rating, proposed last year by the Commons, for towns to which it is intended to extend corporate rights and privileges; but as I think it was in the course of the discussion admitted very freely on both sides that it is desirable, where we have the means to identify the law and practice in the two countries, and that we were only withheld from adopting that course by the want of proper and indispensable materials, inasmuch as these materials have since been supplied by the enactment of
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the late Poor-law for Ireland, which took place in the last Session, we propose, that wherever in the corporate cities and towns the poor's-rate has been established for the space of three years, then that every person occupying a tenement which has been rated to the relief of the poor for the three previous years shall enjoy the municipal franchise. With respect again to the nomination of the sheriffs, we adhere to the proposal made last year, that the councils may present three twice to the Lord-lieutenant, and that if he disapprove of all six he may appoint. We reject the amendment of the Lords, which placed the appointment exclusively in the Lord-lieutenant. We propose to retain the same number of towns as that of last year in the first schedule of the Bill, where corporations are to be continued by the express provision of the Act, and also to include in the second section the same towns as were agreed on at the end of last Session by both Houses, to which on petition the Crown is empowered to extend corporate institutions, and not only to these, but to any towns in Ireland of three thousand inhabitants. With respect to these boroughs in schedule B, the two Houses proposed to deal in different modes, and I think on hearing the different propositions which were recommended, it will be seen that the plan of each House was liable to some exceptions. The Lords proposed, "that upon the petition of a majority of persons qualified to be burgesses under the 10 l. qualification, from any borough in schedule B, or any town in Ireland possessing three thousand inhabitants, the Crown might extend to that town the provisions of the Act, lowering, however, the qualification required for aldermen and councillors." Now, as we thought the 10 l. rating too high even for the largest towns, it follows, a fortiori, that it would be overwhelming in the small and less populous towns in Ireland. "If no such charter were granted in twelve months, a further distinction was to be made between boroughs having property to the value of 100 l. per annum, and boroughs not having property to that amount. In the former, commissioners were to be chosen by a 10 l. constituency, of exactly the same kind as the burgesses of Schedule A; but their powers were to be limited to managing the corporate funds, and paying them over to any local board established

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in the borough, for paving, lighting, &c., or if there were no such board, then applying them, under the direction of the lord-lieutenant, for the public benefit of the inhabitants. In these cases, the old corporation was to be dissolved, and if at any time the Crown should grant a charter of incorporation upon petition as above mentioned, the property was to be transferred to the Council, and the power of the commissioners to cease." Now, we think this provision to be at variance with the whole spirit and scope of the Bill, which is not to encourage centralized management, but self-government by the communities in the different towns in which it applies. "In boroughs which have not property to the amount of 100 l., the present corporations to be continued, but all their powers to cease, except those necessary for the continuance of the corporation, and management of the property, to be applied as in the richer boroughs of Schedule B." We considered this proposition also objectionable, though not so much so as the others. The suggestion of the Commons was, "that in all the boroughs of Schedule B, commissioners should be elected as under the 9th Geo. 4th, and that the corporate property should be transferred to them, for the purposes of that act." So that it was objected, that it was not right, that towns should be compulsorily rated and taxed under the provisions of this bill, without any request being made by them to have it enforced with regard to them; and it was urged, that it was contrary to the spirit of our institutions, and the practice of our Government, to apply the power of taxation against the consent of those who were to be affected by it. We felt the force of this objection, and accordingly we propose, "that the Crown shall be empowered to grant the powers of the act to any borough in Schedule B, or any town having three thousand inhabitants, on petition, but without requiring the signatures of an absolute majority, and providing that the franchise may be such sum as may give a sufficiency of burgesses not less than 4l., and not exceeding 8l.; or, after three years' rating, the English franchise. In those boroughs which do not petition for twelve months, commissioners to be elected under the 9th Geo. 4th, to manage the property, and apply it for the benefit of the inhabitants, but without any power of laying a rate, their powers to cease at any time a char-
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ter be granted." These, I think, are the salient points of difference between the bill which is now proposed and that which was ultimately agreed on last year after much discussion. With respect to the general question, I do not certainly mean to advance the assertion, that the question of municipal reform is the only remaining question essential to the welfare of Ireland; but I am stating no more than the simple fact when I say, that it is the only remaining one of the three great questions which have occupied so much of the attention of Parliament during several successive Sessions, and that we may indulge the prospect, that the removal of it will give room for the consideration of further measures, which, whether involving so much that is really important in abstract principle and national bearing or not, will perhaps be considered by many to be of a more immediate practical tendency; and which, though perhaps not appealing so much to the ordinary distinctions and watchwords of party, may perhaps affect more nearly the actual physical condition of the people. And when the principles of the measure which I now beg leave of the House to give one permission to introduce are so simple, so fair, and so just, I cannot deny myself the hope, that Parliament in its present Session will at last bring this much discussed, and much vexed question to a satisfactory and speedy termination.
Mr. Shawsaid, he would not offer any objection to the introduction of the measure proposed by the noble Lord, nor would he go into the statements which the noble Lord had made at any great length. The principal difference betwixt the measure of former Sessions and that which it was now proposed to introduce related to the franchise, and to the alteration which the noble Lord proposed in reference to that part of the measure he felt the strongest objections. The noble Lord seemed to expect, that the plan he now proposed would afford a better constituency, and that the elections would be conducted with less of party spirit. But he begged to refer the noble Lord to what took place at Limerick at the election of guardians under the New Poor-law as a specimen of what was to be expected under the Municipal Bill. It had been hoped, that the spirit with which that measure was discussed in Parliament would have had the effect of softening

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down the party feelings and religious animosities which existed in Ireland. But on the occasion to which he referred, when the Poor-law Bill was put in operation in the county and city of Limerick, that hope had not been realized, and a different course to that which had been anticipated had been adopted. When the bill was to be put in operation, a political meeting was held, at which a Roman Catholic took the chair, and a list of guardians was prepared and forwarded next day to all parts of the district of which the union was to be composed; and, contrary to the wishes and feelings of the Protestant portion of the population and of many respectable Roman Catholics, that list, so prepared, was, on the day of election, carried identically as it had been prepared. Out of twenty guardians to be appointed for the county and city of Limerick, there were nineteen Roman Catholics elected. He thought, after the statement of that fact, the noble Lord could hardly entertain a hope that the elections under the Municipal Bill would be less free from party feeling than they had already become under the Poor-law Act of last Session. He was glad to hear from the noble Lord that it was the desire of the Government to give every attention to such suggestions as might be made for the improvement of the measure which he was about to introduce, and he trusted that the noble Lord would not raise any obstacles to whatever well-considered amendments might be proposed, on either side of the House. As to the towns to be retained in the first Schedule of the Bill, he did not clearly understand, from the noble Lord's statement, what the number was to be; nor had the noble Lord stated whether the provisions of the Bill were to extend to the regulation of the boundaries of the boroughs, or whether a specific measure was to be introduced for that purpose. He perfectly agreed with the noble Lord in the hope he had expressed, that as the other two great measures having reference to Ireland had been settled, and as the only point upon which there was a material difference of opinion in regard to the measure now brought forward had reference to the franchise, they might at last indulge a prospect of its final settlement. For his own part, however, he thought opposition should be given, not only to the franchise proposed, but to the principle of the mea-
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sure. He thought still that it would have been better to extinguish corporations altogether in Ireland, and not to keep up the vast expense which they entailed upon the community; and he could state from his own knowledge that the present was not a measure desired by any large portion of the Irish people, and that no great anxiety had been manifested for corporations. As, however, the measure, had been so long under the consideration of Parliament, he admitted, that it was highly desirable it should be finally adjusted, and for himself he would give every assistance in his power for the attainment of that object. He should not then enter upon the amendments which he might ultimately deem necessary, but he should take the earliest opportunity of protesting against the proposition of the noble Lord of extending to Ireland the law of England, which gave, after a rating of three years, the franchise to every rated householder. He should reserve for the proper occasion whatever other observations he might have to make, and he also reserved to himself the full right of proposing any such alterations in the noble Lord's measure as he might deem necessary, and of making any motion which the provisions of the measure might in his opinion require.
Mr. William Rochesaid, he felt it behoved him as representative for the city of Limerick to make a few remarks on the topic which the right hon. the Recorder of Dublin adverted to, and animadverted upon, in reference to the preponderating number of Roman Catholics appearing on the Limerick list of guardians lately appointed for the administration of the Poor-law in that city. He first begged to observe, that a public meeting had been previously held, at which he had the honour to preside, and where he trusted he acted with impartiality and he believed with satisfaction to all parties. It was called with a view to select and suggest a number of names out of which it was recommended to the constituency to make choice, but which, of course, could only amount to a recommendation, yet might tend to facilitate the election. Nor was he aware, that Catholic clerical influence had the slightest operation there or exercised even the slightest interference. In the rural districts he did believe the poorer rate-payers consulted their clergy ignorant as they, (the poorer rate-payers) necessarily were, of the nature and results of this

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new law, and accustomed as they had been to resort to their pastors on all difficult occasions for sincere advice. This list of guardians he did not himself analyze as regarded the question of religion, because he considered the question of religion so utterly foreign from the purpose, and though a large majority of Roman Catholics happened to be thus nominated he believed the circumstance did not arise from any religious feeling or impulse but was owing, in his mind, to the rate-payers being better acquainted and more in communication with the gentlemen merchants and shop-keepers thus elected than with those of the Protestant community, and likewise probably to their knowledge and approval of the conduct of the gentlemen, thus chosen, on other public occasions, and at other public Boards. That what strengthened his opinion of the absence of any religious bias on the occasion, was, that in many other public institutions of that city (to several of which he belonged) he never could perceive, that the Catholic electors were actuated, at all, by creed, but by character—also that if religion, as was insinuated, had any influence in those appointments, the brother of one of the most popular Catholic clergymen there, would not be left out, though his name had been suggested for appointment. The guardians themselves, too, on selecting their dignitaries, such as chairman, vice-chairman, and deputy chairman, chose a Protestant for the first, a Catholic for the second, and a Quaker for the third, which surely evinced impartiality. But deprecating as he did the introduction of religion on occasions so foreign from its object, and in a manner so adverse to its interests, he hoped the time would ere long arrive, when it would be matter of indifference whether the directors of public institutions were of one creed or another, but solely whether they were worthy of the trust and fitted for the functions they undertook. And he would conclude by observing, that, the oftener those of different creeds were brought together and in the habit of mingling together, the sooner would these untoward feelings and ideas die away and disappear.
Mr. Wysesaid, he could confirm the statement of his hon. Friend as to there being no desire to exclude Protestants, but, at the same time, the result of the election at Limerick was not to be won-
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dered at when they considered that this was the only political institution with respect to the management of which the people were consulted. Whenever the Roman Catholics of Ireland had been called upon to exercise the elective franchise, either in respect to the officers of county infirmaries or dispensaries, it was found that the religious opinions of the candidate, either on one side or the other, were not taken as the criterion, but the knowledge, the zeal, the abilities, and the character of those who were recommended to the vacant office, and whenever these qualities were found to exist, religious opinions formed no disqualification. He could bear testimony upon this point, especially in regard to the City of Waterford, and he believed, in fact, that the preponderance would be found on the side of those who were of the Protestant religion. He should like to know when there was to be an end of their hearing, that persons were only chosen for office in Ireland on account of their religion, and he thought that the imputations of such miserable motives proved the actual necessity of having those who had the management of public affairs in Ireland elected. They had been told, that concentrated power, such as the present corporations afforded, was necessary to defend the established Church in Ireland, but he thanked God they had arrived at a period when a more enlightened people prevailed, and when common ability was the only feeling which would operate in the choice of either Protestants or Roman Catholics for the office of guardians or any other office. Was it not clear that if the people were to pay rates for the good ordering and lighting of their towns the power of applying their money ought to be exercised by persons elected by themselves; and he rejoiced that the day had come when it was admitted that they were entitled to choose those bodies who were to administer their own local affairs. This was a principle recognised by every state, whether imperial or democratic, and which operated in Russia and Austria as well as in America. Ireland was the only exception; but fortunately the present corporations of that country would now be destroyed, and the certainty of this was what had led to the apparent apathy to which the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for the University of Dublin had alluded. It was, indeed, an act of charity

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to destroy them, and not to allow them to linger on in a state of contemptible existence. They were neither alive nor dead, but hovering between both states. They could do neither good nor evil. Horses in Ireland were perishing, lands were uncultivated, and everything in a state which called aloud for some remedy. The sooner, therefore, they came to a decision upon something, and which he sincerely trusted would not be delayed beyond the present Session, the better for the people of England and the better for the corporations themselves. As soon as the House had pronounced a new law that law would be adopted—there would be no opposition to it—the people would feel that they had the means of managing their own affairs—they would learn a practical lesson in the discharge of their own affairs, and a closer union take place between this country and Ireland than had ever yet been experienced.
Mr. Colquhounsaid, the noble Lord had indulged in something like a hope that the adoption of his Bill would lead the way to a more tranquil state of things in Ireland, so that the House having disposed of this last of the three measures (as the noble Lord called it) which had so long engaged both Houses of Parliament, they would then be able to direct their attention to some other measures of a more practical nature. He thought he might venture to ask the noble Lord what was to be understood by that remark? He believed he had heard a colleague of the noble Lord say, that the Irish Church question was by no means settled on a satisfactory footing: and if he referred to the accounts of recent proceedings in Ireland, he should find, that this question of Municipal Corporations was far from being the only unsettled point. It appeared that it was one only of six questions entertained by the Precursor Society. From the declaration of that society, of which the hon. and learned Member for Dublin was the leader, the House could ascertain what were those practical questions which would remain to be settled, even after the settlement of Municipal Corporations. In the first place, there was to be a complete assimilation of the suffrage to the suffrage in England, and the suffrage in England was to be extended to the furthest point possible. The next point was the ballot, for the Precursors insisted on the ballot. Then another point was
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the total extinction of tithes and all other ecclesiastical exactions, whether they were called rent-charges or by any other name. So that that question, which was settled, as supposed by the noble Lord, last Session, remained in quite as unsatisfactory a state as before. He perceived, that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed some dissent. Why, did not the right hon. Gentleman know, that during the last autumn, meetings were held and attended by thousands and thousands of persons for the purpose of stating, that that measure was most obnoxious, and that it was to unite the gray coats along with the frieze-coated population in their antipathy to the Church? Such then were the ultimate practical measures to which they had to look forward as the groundwork of future agitation. The noble Lord had spoken of an identification of laws and interests between the two countries. But what was the identification aimed at by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin? He had long been calling out for "justice to Ireland," and he had at last given something like an explanation of what he meant by justice to Ireland. In that explanation he had embodied all the points already enumerated. "There must be," said the hon. and learned Member, "a due representation of Ireland; and I will be content with nothing less than 150 representatives for Ireland." He (Mr. Colquhoun) presumed that next year, taking the scale of population into account, there would be a demand for 200. But let the House listen to the manner in which the hon. and learned Gentleman expressed himself:—"Should the just prayer of our petition be granted, we are bound in integrity and good faith not to seek the repeal of the Union: we menace nothing, we threaten nothing; but if it be refused, the social elements of Ireland will never be settled into tranquillity. And then the hon. and learned Gentleman proceeded to say what ulterior measures he had in view, and one of these was the repeal of the Union. So that all that was to be gained by the settlement of this question, rather only the proposed settlement of it, was to embark afresh on a sea of agitation more extensive and interminable than ever, and which according to the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, must lead to a severance of the legislative Union. Notwithstanding all the professions which

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had been made about an anxiety for the exclusion of sectarian prejudices and religious distinctions, a recent election for poor-law guardians in Limerick had proved how far the reverse was the case. A large party there refused to elect men of property chosen from among both Roman Catholics and Protestants, and chose not only a majority of Roman Catholics, but insisted on men of extreme politics—men who were of the politics of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. It mattered not how low they were in station, how deficient they were in property, or how wanting in every other qualification for the office; it was enough that they were violent members of the political union, enough that they joined in the shout for repeal, and in the demand for those extreme measures expressed on the Precursors' ticket; these men, and only these men, were deserving of the confidence of the people. The hon. and learned Member had taunted them with keeping up injustice. What would he say if in England all clergymen in all their churches and parishes were to read a list of twenty churchmen, and say to the people, "See that you do not vote for a Roman Catholic or a Dissenter, or for a Baptist, or an Independent, but for these men alone; and we throw out this significant hint, that if you do, you know there are penalties in reserve, more forcible and fearful than the penalties of the law, for resisting our mandate?"
Mr. W. S. O'Briencould not concur in the objections which had been raised by the hon. Member who had just sat down, against the election which had just taken place in Limerick. There was undoubtedly a greater proportion of Roman Catholics than of Protestants chosen at that election, but, having had an opportunity of personally observing the elections throughout Limerick, he did not think it possible to point out an objectionable choice. As large a proportion of Protestants had been chosen as, probably, their state of property and other circumstances admitted of. He saw the list for Limerick, and he did not believe there was a single Roman Catholic on that list, and underneath the list was written, "Vote for the friends of the poor."
Sir R. Inglissaid, he should not have risen upon this occasion at all, had it not been said, that the noble Lord opposite was pledged to the extinction and de-
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struction of the Corporations of Ireland. He was not so pledged, and he would always object to be considered pledged to any such proposition. He would not, offhand, consent to the extinction of corporations either in England or Ireland. When he reflected upon the purpose for which those corporations were instituted, he considered that every friend of the country, whether in reference to England or Ireland, was bound to give them every due consideration, that their importance required, whenevever they became the subject of investigation. The argument meant this, that by the creation of new municipalities, they would put into the hands of what were called the people of Ireland, a great legal power, and what that legal power was, the hon. Member for Dublin would tell the House. He, for one, would never consent to place any such power in any such hands. Though he should not divide the House, yet he refused to concur in being ranked with those who willingly allowed themselves to be considered as assenting to the destruction of Corporations.
Lord J. Russellsaid it seemed hardly necessary that he should address the House upon the subject of Irish Municipal Corporations when there appeared to be no disposition to oppose the motion of his noble Friend; but as the subject of elections under the Poor-law Bill had been so much adverted to, he thought it necessary to say one word with respect to what had transpired at Limerick. It certainly appeared that in the election of guardians of the poor in that city, both parties made it in a great degree a political struggle, and the result was considered a great political triumph by the successful party. But in another town, in which an election for similar purposes had taken place, it appeared that the officers were elected about equally from each party; and that all the different religious sects into which the town was divided were fairly represented in the board of guardians. He thought this was an example much more likely to be followed generally throughout Ireland than the example afforded by the city of Limerick. It was much to be regretted that the electors in any town or city should employ the new powers given to them under bills of this description merely for political purposes; but with the exception of the instances to which reference had been made, he thought there was not a

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disposition on the part of the constitueut body in Ireland to use their powers otherwise than in conformity with the Act. In a report which Mr. Hall had recently made upon the subject, that gentleman said, "That in the anticipations which he had ventured to utter in his former report, he had not been disappointed. The affairs of the unions, he observed, were managed by men of business and activity, and their exertions were solely directed to carry out the provisions of the Bill in the spirit in which it had been enacted by the Legislature, and altogether their conduct had been to him perfectly satisfactory." This testimony as to the mode in which the elections were conducted must be satisfactory to the House, and he only hoped, that all future elections would be carried on upon the same principle, for this was a law from which he anticipated the greatest improvement to Ireland would arise. He trusted, therefore, that neither party politics nor religious feelings would be allowed to interfere in any elections that might take place under it.
Mr. Sergeant Jacksoncordially and entirely concurred in the hope expressed by the noble Lord, that the elections of guardians of the poor in Ireland would not exhibit in future anything like party spirit. He did not wish to prolong the debate on the question now before the House, but he rose merely to say one word on the fact which was in controversy on both sides. The hon. Member for Limerick had said, that all Roman Catholics had there been elected on the board of guardians. He (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) was afraid that would not be found to be the fact. At the election in the poorest parish of the city of Limerick, namely, St. John's parish, the chair was filled by the Rev. Mr. Fitzgibbon, and therefore the hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that the Roman Catholic clergy had not interfered in the matter.
Mr. Barronsupported the proposition which had that night been brought forward by the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland. Notwithstanding what had been stated by the right hon. the Recorder of Dublin, he (Mr. Barron) must observe, that during the last 50 years there had not been a single Roman Catholic elected into the corporation of the city of Dublin, and was not that fact, he begged to ask, sufficient to provoke a natural retaliation? Was it to be supposed that the Roman Catholics
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would at once forget and forgive what had passed? Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who showed so bad an example of charity, ought now to be the first to come forward and say, "Now that the laws are altered—now that Roman Catholic disabilities are removed, we, in the spirit of conciliation, will now admit you." And he would ask the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Colquhoun), would this House have been jutified in refusing to grant to England and Scotland those corporations to which they were entitled, and which had been conceded to both those countries, because then, as now, there might be a Chartist Association sitting in London? Certainly not; and therefore it was a most absurd and vicious argument for the hon. Member to urge that corporations ought not to be granted to Ireland because certain portions of the people of that country were joined in looking for universal suffrage, vote by ballot, and other measures which might or might not be practicable. Their claims for those measures ought not to be an argument against the grants to Ireland of the same privileges as had been given to England and Scotland; on the contrary, he would say, that if hon. Members opposite wished to do away with just causes of complaint, and to weaken the agitation of the society to which allusion had been made, let them concede to Ireland that which she had a right in justice to demand, and then take their stand and declare they were determined to oppose those claims which they held to be unjust, improper, and impolitic—claims which they thought ought not to be granted to the English people; then would be the time to oppose the Irish people boldly and manfully on those other demands; but until hon. Members opposite came to that House with clean hands by granting to the people of Ireland their just privileges, they ought not to taunt them with making improper demands. It was for that reason that he protested against such arguments as had been made use of by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock, arguments which he was satisfied would have no weight in or out of the House, but of which he felt it his duty to expose the sophisms and absurdities. He trusted, that as all parties, with the exception of the hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford, were agreed upon the necessity of abolishing the existing corporations in Ireland, the House would see the common sense, the

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justice, and the equity of granting equality of liberty to the people of that country, who he was sure would never be satisfied—and, indeed, as every honest man must think, ought not to be satisfied—until they were placed on an equal footing in every respect with the people of England and of Scotland. He hoped the day was not distant when men, throwing aside their ancient prejudices, would meet the people of Ireland on just and equal grounds, and that, as the law had abrogated religious distinctions, he would implore the House to abrogate those distinctions in act and deed, both public and private. Let hon. Members opposite set an example of charity, and not by withholding just rights excite a generous and a brave people.
Mr. H. Grattandid not rise to prolong the present discussion, but to put a question; the answer to which, from the right lion, the Recorder of Dublin, might render it unnecessary for him to move an Amendment he had prepared to the motion of the noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland. The question referred to a corporation of which he and the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite were both members, and which, though it had been said to be dead, was, he could assure the House, alive and active—he alluded to the corporation of the city of Dublin. It might be in the recollection of the House, that during the administration of the Marquess Wellesley, certain persons, himself among the rest, had been enabled to proceed by law against that corporation, and to recover from it a sum of about 78,000 l., by a decision of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, afterwards confirmed here by the House of Lords. That debt was secured by debentures or bonds payable from the funds of the corporation arising from their lands and leases. Now the corporation had lately proceeded to dispose amongst themselves those funds which belonged to the holders of the debentures. One individual had got 300 l., others different sums, voted to one another, and there was no security but that the funds would be wholly made away with, and that the creditors would get nothing. Now, he should be glad to know, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, without any offence to him, had given any legal opinion upon the right of the corporation so to dispose of its funds? He repeated, it had been his intention to move an Amendment to add
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to the motion of the noble Lord, after the word "Ireland," that there be laid before the House a return of the several sums of money voted at a late meeting of the corporation of the city of Dublin, stating the names of the persons to whom granted, and the purposes for which granted, together with a copy of any by-law authorising the same. If the right hon. Gentleman opposite would say, that there was any such by-law, he would not now press his Amendment, but give notice and reserve it for to-morrow.
Mr. Littonsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down was wholly unacquainted with the facts of the matter which he had brought under the consideration of the House. He (Mr. Litton) did know something of them; and the matter stood thus:—At one period there was a decree pronounced by the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, which had been affirmed by the House of Lords, for the sum of which the hon. and learned Gentleman had spoken, or some such sum; but if he had gone a little further for information, he would have found that all the debentures on which that sum was found to be due had been paid to the public, and that not one shilling of that which the corporation had been found to be indebted to the public, was now due. He (Mr. Litton) had frequently heard from the other side, statements made without consideration or accurate information; and he was happy to be in the House to contradict the statement made on the present occasion, and to affirm, as would appear by a reference to the records of the Rolls' Court, that on a motion for a sequestration against the corporation, time had been given by the Master of the Rolls to enable the corporation to obtain funds, and that when that motion was renewed, the answer given was, "that the money had all been paid off, except a few thousands; and that, since, the debt had been altogether redeemed." He should not have risen in this debate, if he had not felt called upon by a distinct recollection of the facts he had stated to negative, in the most distinct terms, the statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman. On the question before the House, there had been such an abundance of discussion, that he would not protract it; but this much he must assert, that to those who opposed the proposed substitution for the old corporations, was not attributable that want of

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happiness and continued discord which prevailed in Ireland: it was attributable solely to the agitators of the country seeking to obtain, by bad means, objects of their own bad ambition, and who cared not what sacrifice they made of the happiness of the people in the achievement of those objects. He repeated, that every measure which emanated from that House, however sanctioned by unanimity, was made the ground of complaint by ill-minded agitators, for their own purposes. Even the Poor-law Bill, which had been hailed with delight here by hon. Members as a measure of benefit, and designed to ameliorate the condition of the poor, had been assailed by them in Ireland. Again, the tithe question, which last year had been settled by a great cession on the part of the Church—a cession far greater than many wished, but which was yielded to secure the settlement of the question—a cession by which his feelings had been outraged, for he never would have consented, and never could, conscientiously, assent to taking 25 per cent. from the clergy, but his friends and party had consented for the sake of settlement and arrangement—had also been re-agitated; and no sooner had the last Session of Parliament ended, than in every quarter of the country, agitation and Precursor meetings were held for the purpose of neutralizing all the good effects of that measure of conciliation, and of exciting the people against the clergy of the Protestant Church in Ireland. In the same manner, he repeated, had the Poor-law been condemned by those who here had supported it. To those, then, was attributable the misfortunes of Ireland—to those bad men who would not let Ireland be at peace, and not to those who conscientiously expressed their opinions of the necessity of maintaining the institutions of the country.
Mr. M. J. O'Connellwished the hon. and learned Member to state, if he could name any Irish Member who had supported the Poor-law Bill in that House, and had denounced it in Ireland.
Mr. H. Grattansaid, new debentures had been given for the old debentures, and that the money had not been actually paid.
Mr. Littonrepeated, that cash had been paid, and other securities had been substituted for the originals, and, that the creditors of five years ago did not exist.
Mr. M. J. O'Connell: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give an answer to the question I put to him?
Mr. Litton: I certainly can name, if it be necessary. I have not the slightest objection to do so.
Mr. Reddingtonsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman had dealt very largely in assertion, but he would take the liberty of quoting the words of the hon. and learned Member against himself, and hoped that the House would guard themselves against taking the assertions of any hon. Member as true who had no authority for making them. He was one of those who supported the Poor-law Bill; but the hon. and learned Member for Dublin opposed it; and although that hon. and learned Gentleman had great influence in Ireland, yet he would defy the hon. and learned Member opposite to prove, that that hon. and learned Gentleman had done anything against the Poor-law in a spirit in which it ought not to be treated. With regard to the question brought forward by his hon. Friend (Mr. Grattan), he did not think, that the answer to it by the hon. and learned Member was satisfactory. He had stated, that a part of the debt was paid either by cash or some other Irish securities. He trusted the hon. and learned Member would not attempt to palm an assertion on the House as a fact, unless he was prepared to show, that he had some ground for it. With respect to the bill before the House, he begged to express his great satisfaction, that the bill of the present year so far exceeded in principle any former measure on the subject. The rights of the Irish people, and the justice of their demands, were subjects of too ordinary a character to be dwelt upon by him, but he would assure the House, that let the Legislature proceed in the fairest manner, and with the sincerest wish to give peace and contentment to Ireland, they never would see those objects realized if they attempted to persuade the Irish people to be satisfied with less than what justice awarded to them, and what it was their province to demand. It would be premature to advert to the details of the measure now; but he begged just to observe, that the borough which he represented was very unfairly dealt with in the Bill brought forward last year, and he hoped in the present measure it would find that treatment to which it was entitled.
Mr. Litton: I again assert distinctly, that the original debt which the hon. Gentleman stated had not been paid, has been paid.
Leave given.

CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS.
Lord Mahonsaid, that he rose according to his notice to move, that in the trial of controverted elections, the objects of justice, uniformity, and dispatch, would be best attained by a tribunal not consisting of Members of Parliament, and when he considered the weight and authority of those from whom he differed on this question, above all, his right hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth, whose abilities he so highly revered, and whose guidance upon other questions he was proud to follow: when he considered also the long parliamentary experience and constitutional knowledge of another right hon. Friend, the Member for Montgomery, then he felt ready to give way in reverential silence; but when he recollected, on the other hand, how enormous and intolerable were the present abuses, and when he reflected, that the remedies proposed played over the surface, but never reached the root of the disease; when he saw the absolute necessity of some effective remedial measure being at length adopted, and believing also, as he did, that the public feeling out of doors was in accordance with his own upon this question, then he felt not only encouraged to persevere, but inclined to hope, that the measure which he should submit, might receive the sanction of this House. In bringing this question forward he should earnestly endeavour to avoid whatever might tend to provoke political animosities or party feelings. Whatever opinion he might entertain, and he certainly did entertain a strong opinion as to the decision of particular committees, he yet on this occasion should refry in from discussing them, and he thought he should best discharge the duty he had undertaken, if he argued the motion he had to submit on general grounds alone. There was one point on which they were all agreed:—this was no party question. He trusted that was felt by every hon. Member. Each of the two great parties arrayed around him and before him had been reduced, and might be reduced again, to a small minority; each had, therefore, a strong interest to protect itself against being overwhelmed by numbers in controverted election committees; and this must be to
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each of them of far more importance than any little advantage that might be gained on either side by the continuance of the existing system in this or in the ensuing Session of Parliament. His right hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) in the luminous speech with which he introduced this question to the House, on the 2d of April, last year, pleaded for this privilege on a ground on which he (Lord Mahon) was sorry to be opposed to him. His right hon. Friend told the House, that this was a privilege wrested, by the Commons from the Crown in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, in the case of an election for the county of Norfolk; and he said that ever since then the Commons had enjoyed that privilege uninterruptedly, and that its high antiquity and venerable origin were a strong ground for continuing it. As to the historical fact he was under the necessity of differing from his right hon. Friend. It was undoubtedly true, that a discussion, which arose in the time of Queen Elizabeth relative to a return from the county of Norfolk led to the establishment of this privilege on the part of the Commons; but it was a mistake to suppose, that the privilege had since that time continued altogether uninterruptedly to be enjoyed by the Commons. On this point he would venture to oppose to the opinion of his right hon. Friend, the statement of another eminent statesman, who had also filled the office of prime minister, and who was the founder of that law, under which the tribunal for trying controverted elections, was at present constituted he need hardly say, that he meant Mr. Grenville. On the 7th of March, 1770, Mr. Grenville observed—
"That the present mode of trial is not warranted by the ancient usage of Parliament is well known to every Member conversant with our history, for even at so recent a period as the Revolution, triers were particularly appointed to determine on the merit of petitions, and these triers generally consisted of the most illustrious personages of the upper House of Parliament; but gradually to give their decision a greater air of solemnity, the whole House attended, though the triers were usually guided in their opinion by the law lords."
He trusted the House would not mistake his intention. He was not arguing for one moment that to refer controverted elections to the decision of the House of Lords, could be otherwise than a most unconstitutional and blameable proceeding. But his argument was, that that watchful jealousy of the Commons' privileges which his right hon. Friend had ascribed to our

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predecessors did not in reality exist, and that they were not disposed to refuse in some degree a concurrent jurisdiction over controverted elections, even to that place against which the very strongest objections should prevail. He would only further say, upon this part of the subject, that the opinion of Mr. Grenville would be found to be confirmed by several entries in the journals of the House of Lords. He would mention one or two only. On the 8th of May, 1661, "receivers and triers of petitions" were appointed; and on January 10, 1662, he found it was "ordered, that the judges be desired that they will appoint among themselves one of their number to attend the Lords' committee of petitions, on the days of their sitting, for their assistance." This he admitted, did not very fully bear out, but it certainly threw some considerable light on the opinion given by Mr. Grenville on this subject. When after the Revolution whatever might have been the case before it, this House claimed or exercised the right of trying controverted elections; at that period, he need scarcely mention, that election petitions were heard before the House at large, and not before a committee as at present; the whole House received evidence at the bar, and came to a decision without the solemnity of an oath, which decision was made nearly upon the same ground as any other party question. Much as they might think of the abuses of election committees of the present day they were infinitely exceeded by those which prevailed at that period. It might be sufficient to mention, that at the period of the resignation of Sir Robert Walpole, questions of controverted elections were brought forward for regular party discussion. No doubt whatever was raised as to the facts of the case; there was no dispute about the evidence received; no, the only question with each Member was this—"Does this return make for, or against the party, whom I support?" There was a remarkable instance of this in the opinion given by the son of the prime minister of that day, Horace Walpole, in a letter addressed by him to Mr. Horace Mann on the 31st of December, 1741. He wrote thus:—
"The court will have a majority of forty—a vast number for the outset; for a good majority is like a good sum of money, it soon makes itself bigger. The first great point will be the Westminster petition; another, Mr. Pulteney's election at Heydon. It will be an ugly affair for the court, for Pulteney has asked votes of the courtiers, and said, Sir Ro-
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bert was indifferent about it. But Sir Robert is warmer than I almost ever saw him, and declared to Churchill, of whom Pulteney claims a promise, that he must take Walpole or Pulteney!"
Such were the ideas of justice which in those days existed with regard to controverted elections. In fact, what was it that produced shortly afterwards the fall of Sir Robert Walpole? Was it any of those great questions which had agitated the country in the twenty years of his administration—was it the Spanish war, was it the Excise bill, was it the Hanover Treaty? No, Sir—
Finem animæ, quæ res humanas miscuit olim, Non gladii, non saxa dabunt!
No, Sir, the fall of that great Minister was produced by a decision upon an election petition from Chippenham! That petition was decided on a party vote, and was carried by a majority of only one; and upon that one vote Sir Robert Walpole resigned. Such was the state of things when Mr. Grenville, thirty years after, brought forward his plan of reformation; and now, when they saw, that the law of Mr. Grenville must be further amended—now, when he supposed that there would be scarcely one voice raised to support the continuance of the system as it existed at present—let them at least do justice to the high and pure motives which inspired, and to the long-continued success which attended the efforts of Mr. Grenville. There was a remarkable statement on record of the motives of Mr. Grenville in proposing that act. Mr. Knox, who was Under-secretary of State, had left an interesting account of a conversation which he had with Mr. Grenville at Wootton, only a few months before Mr. Grenville brought in his bill, and less than a year before he died:
"Mr. Grenville told me, that he found his health and spirits very much declined, that he had given up all thoughts of office and did not wish to take any active part in public business; and indeed, he continued, with a deep sigh, and putting his hand upon his side, I am no longer capable of serving the public. My health and spirits are gone. The only thing I have any intention of doing is, to endeavour to give some check to the abominable prostitution of the House of Commons in elections, by voting for whoever has the support of the Minister, which must end in the ruin of public liberty, if it be not checked."
It was with this motive that he proposed his measure in 1770. It was first made temporary, and afterwards made

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permanent. It subsequently received various changes and modifications in detail, with a statement of which he need not detain the House; but he must say, that he thought the Act of Mr. Grenville for a very long period, imparted substantial justice, and gave nearly universal satisfaction. All those Members who entered the House some fifteen or twenty years ago, with whom he had spoken on the subject, had borne witness to him, that at that period the Act of Mr. Grenville was considered to do entire justice, and that there was scarcely a murmur of discontent against it. Of course, here and there abuses might exist in that as in all human institutions—still, as a rule, that Act gave general if not universal satisfaction. If that were the case, what was the cause why that Act at the present day gave almost universal dissatisfaction? Why was it, that among the various opinions that might that evening be urged by Members of that House, not a single voice would be raised to advocate the continuance of Mr. Grenville's Bill? Why was this? He believed it to arise from the altered composition of the House since the reform of Parliament. Let the House just consider how that change affected election committees. Previous to the Reform Bill, there was a large body of Members returned by boroughs in schedule A., or by small corporations which were now disfranchised. This large body, amounting, perhaps, to 150 Members, not having to make any detailed declarations on the hustings, or to give any decisive pledges to their constituents, and not being liable to any direct popular responsibility, were not in the habit of attaching themselves devotedly to any political parties. The majority of them were considered impartial men. They might have their bias, but still, in general, they were ready to support measures either against the Minister, or against the Opposition, as the merits of those measures appeared in their minds to preponderate. That was undoubtedly the state of things existing in that House previous to the Reform Act. He was not going to enter into any political considerations respecting the change from that state of things; but, with reference to election committees, the result was this; before the Reform Act, in reducing names from the first list of 33, each party would, naturally, strike out the names of the more decided partizans, so that on the reduced list of eleven there were always at least two or three of
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those persons left, whose general opinions partook very little of a party character—who were men not of strong party attachments, and who, therefore, acted as a moderating power in the committee. It was not possible then as at present to pronounce beforehand with perfect accuracy, that there were six Ministerial members and five Opposition members on such a committee, that on another committee the Opposition had seven, and the Ministerial lists four; and no probable prediction could be hazarded from the unrestrained political bias of the majority. In former days, though it was possible there might be three or four decided Opposition Members, and three strong friends of the Government, yet there were also two or three Members who were not of any decided bias. The result was, that those few Members preserved the balance in the committee, and prevented a reckless and undisguised conflict between two directly opposite opinions. If the House would consider the effect of the presence of those few Members upon the election committees, they would find that whatever might be the result of their position upon other political questions, they undoubtedly did tend to effect a result upon the decisions of an election committee in the manner which Mr. Grenville contemplated when he brought his bill into Parliament. But the same materials no longer existed. He presumed that he should be guilty of no disparagement to that House, if he said, that they had now become nearly all very decided partisans. He believed, that there were not more than five Members of that House who were not connected with any decided political section. He did not think, that it was possible to name more than five. Every Member was now called on to declare his opinions without reserve on a popular hustings, and the pledges which they gave to their constituents debarred them from afterwards displaying that impartiality which existed among the Members of the smaller boroughs till the Reform Bill was enacted. He came now to the practical question, what were the evils which existed under the present system? The resolution of which he had given notice, stated the ends to be attained by Election Committees to be three—justice, uniformity, and despatch. He asserted, that under the present system not one of these objects was effectually attained. He could not argue the first part of the question, in consequence of the resolution which he had

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formed of avoiding a political discussion. He thought, however, that he might appeal to the general feeling of the House, which, he felt assured, would not allow his case to be damaged in his hands by his anxiety to avoid the occasion of a party discussion. He would take the liberty of quoting the words used by Mr. Grenville when he proposed the act; and he would leave it to the House to decide whether the description did not apply with equal force to the present time. The following words were made use of by Mr. Grenville on the 28th of February, 1770:—"Sir, instead of trusting to the merit of their respective causes, the principal dependence of both parties is their private interest among us, and it is scandalously notorious that we are as earnestly canvassed to attend in favour of the opposite sides as if we were not bound to act by the principles of justice, but by the impulse of our own inclination. Nay, Sir, it is well known that in every contested election many Members of this House who are ultimately to judge in a kind of judicial capacity between the competitors enlist themselves as parties in the contention, and take upon themselves the management of the very business upon which they should determine with the strictest impartiality. Thus we have frequently, I blush while I declare it, seen justice sacrificed to numbers, and oppression exalted on the shoulders of a giddy majority into the sacred seat of legislation." The second object which he sought was uniformity, and, if it were possible, this object had been more lost sight of than the former. The alternations were now such, that he did not hesitate to say, that even a consistency of injustice would be preferable to the system of constant change from justice one day to injustice the other. Let him, without deviating from the rule he had laid, down, and without entering upon party questions, instance the two committees which sat on the returns for the city of Dublin. In the first it was decided that the payment of certain rates and local taxes did confer the right of voting, and the result was, that the hon. and learned Member (Mr. O'Connell) was declared not duly elected. A general election took place, the same hon. and learned Gentleman was again elected, the circumstances were precisely the same, but there was a different committee, that committee came to a directly opposite decision, and the result was, that the hon. and learned Member
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kept his seat. He was not saying which committee was right, or which wrong, but he presumed, that all would agree that they could not both be correct, and he unhesitatingly declared, that, with regard to the character of the House, with regard to the ends of justice, and with regard to public opinion, it would be far better to have decisions which were designedly wrong, than to have them first one way, and then the other. The third object was despatch, combined with the important object of economy. How was that affected? According to the present system, the duty of trying the merits of contested elections must be only subsidiary with Members of that House, their legislative functions, of course, being primary. Now a regularly constituted legal tribunal would make this its chief and paramount duty. The Committees at present met, at the earliest, at ten, and adjourned at four; whereas a legal tribunal could both meet earlier and sit later. Another still more pregnant cause of delay arose from the inexperience of many hon. members in the law. In some cases, for instance, which he had seen reported, it appeared to him that a very large portion of the time of the Committee was taken up by hon. Members asking the learned Counsel questions of law. First, they had to learn the law, and afterwards to dispense it. Bystanders, in fact, would be led to suppose, that what presented itself to their eyes was not a national court of justice, but rather an academy, where certain juvenile Members of Parliament were taking lessons in jurisprudence from some venerable gentlemen in a wig and gown. The system of "striking" tended still more to deteriorate the materials of which these tribunals were composed. The art of striking had, in fact, become a regular science. He (Lord Mahon) did not pretend to be more than an apprentice—he had not as yet been initiated into the deeper mysteries of the craft. One fundamental rule, however, was, that if, in the whole list of thirty-three, there should be found an hon. Member far advanced in years—affected by any bodily infirmity—he should by all means be left on that Committee. There was also a marked preference exhibited for very young Members, more especially for those who were known not to have made the law their study. Had any other instance ever been known to exist in civilized society where bodily infirmity and mental inexperience were considered highly favourable

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qualifications for the exercise of judicial functions? These, then, as he thought, were the evils of the present system. There seemed to him to be a total want of justice, of uniformity, and of despatch. He had next to consider what were the remedies which they ought to apply?—and here he came to an examination of the bill of his right hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth. He thought that all would agree, that great merit was due to his right hon. Friend for having turned his mind to this important subject amongst the many others which claimed his attention. He must say also, that there were some parts of his right hon. Friend's bill with which he cordially concurred. With regard, for example, to the question of election recognizances, he had not heard one dissentient voice in the House on that part of the scheme. And why was this? Because it went upon the principle which he was anxious to establish throughout, of putting the legislation entirely out of the House. With this part, as he had said, he cordially concurred, and if the House would give him leave to bring in his bill, he did not know whether his right hon. Friend would excuse the plagiarism, but he would gladly take several clauses, verbatim et literatim, relating to election recognizances out of the bill, and insert them in his own. On some other points, he (Lord Mahon) also concurred as he should presently explain, but with respect to the main principle of keeping the jurisdiction in election Committees of the House, and there seeking a remedy for the present evils, he must, with equal frankness and honesty, declare, that he did not agree. He thought that his right hon. Friend would find insuperable obstacles to the execution of his plan. Had the House considered how such a plan would operate upon the lawyers of that House—gentlemen whose profound learning and eminent talents made it an honour and a happiness to have them numbered amongst its Members? The Committee of six—the selecting Committee—suggested by his right hon. Friend, would be bound to appoint the best committees they could find, and could they then venture to omit the most able and useful men—such as his hon. and learned Friend, the Member for Reading (Sergeant Talfourd) on the one side, and his hon. and learned Friend, the Member for Ripon (Mr. Pemberton) on the other? Would not the Members of the selecting committee neglect their duty if they did not take
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those parties who were most competent? Did he understand that his right hon. friend intended to do this. [Hear, hear, from Sir Robert Peel.) Then let him point out to his right hon. Friend the great inconvenience, and the great difficulty, which they would inflict on the proceedings of the courts of law. Were counsel holding briefs to be summoned from their causes? If so, was the House prepared to incur the risk of debarring men of the highest eminence from becoming members of that House? He would show also how such an arrangement would affect their clients. Suppose he had a cause in which the two eminent gentlemen he had named were engaged as counsel, and they were suddenly withdrawn to an election committee could he at once find other counsel in whom he had equal confidence—of equal ability, or who would have an equal knowledge of the previous proceeding in the cause? He thought, therefore, that there would be a practical hardship of the severest nature, not only with respect to the learned Gentlemen themselves, but also with those whose interests they advocated. Would there not also be great difficulty in the committee of election appointing the secondary Committees? He could conceive that the committee of six could decide easily on the first six members of the other committee. They would choose three members on one side and three on the other, but how were they to decide with respect to the seventh? Who was to name him? Which party was to give way? Or was it to come to this—one party to say they would allow the other in the first Committee to put in the name of the seventh, on condition that they themselves nominated the last man in the next committee? That might produce in the main an equality; but that would not give justice. He was convinced that his right hon. Friend would never be satisfied with a mere alteration of party bias, first on one side and then on the other. Then again what opportunities of serving party interests might not arise in the selection of particular Members at particular periods? To give an instance; he was connected with property in the county of Derby—suppose then a contested election to arise in that county in the middle of a session, and his (Lord Mahon's) presence to be earnestly desired by the candidate on his side for his influence and assistance—would there not be a strong party motive to place him on an election committee, and thus prevent his

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leaving London for some days. This was only one instance, but such cases of various kinds would be constantly occurring. He did not say, that the party motive would often prevail, but there would be a suspicion excited; and in these matters suspicion inflicted nearly as much injury as positive proof. It would give rise to endless cavils and altercations. These were among some of the objections which he felt upon this bill. Feeling it as his duty, and knowing that his right hon. Friend would be the last person in that House to object to his taking this course; he would not shrink from the free expression of his opinion, and he was hound to state, that many who were, like himself, warm admirers and adherents of his right hon. Friend concurred in thinking that the Bill, however ably drawn and however excellently intended, would not remedy the evils of the present system. So far as he could collect, the opinion on that (the Opposition) side of the House—he did not know what sentiments prevailed on the other—was very general against it. He asked, then, why the bill of his right hon. Friend had failed to give general and universal satisfaction. Was it from any want of time for its preparation in him who never spared time or toil? Was it from any want of ability in one who was so confessedly preeminent. He would tell the House why the plan of his right hon. Friend had not succeeded. It was because he attempted what was impossible—because he attempted to apply the rules which prevailed in the old House to the altered composition of the new—because he had attempted to make a clean out of an unclean thing, because he had endeavoured to find the elements of a court of justice in an assembly of decided partisans. What was the practical grievance of which the Members complained? Why this—that they are party men, and therefore disqualified to be judges. Every Member felt, and he had a right to feel, strongly on party questions, and he was therefore incompetent as a judge on cases closely affecting those party questions. Was he or was he not stating the grievance fairly? If he was, then how were they to remedy the grievance by keeping the jurisdiction in that House? Would the diminution of the numbers from eleven to seven affect the evil complained of? Did they believe that any committee of six would be able to nominate an impartial committee out of a House, which was admitted to consist entirely of partisans? The objection, it is
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plain, lay not to the number of the machinery, but to the material. This brazen image which they had set up to worship under the name of "Privilege," let them melt it or mould it as they would, would be brazen still—they could never make it gold. Unless they could plunge into the recesses of the human heart, and pluck out its hidden feelings of partiality, or allay its smouldering resentments; unless they did that which no human being had yet effected; unless they could as with a magic wand call forth the living waters of good will, he was convinced that any measure which should continue in that House, jurisdiction in matters of controverted elections; would only be saved from being mischievous by remaining ineffective. But they were called upon to respect this system, because it was considered a great privilege which had been wrested from the Crown in the reign of Elizabeth, and which had continued uninterruptedly to the present time. On this point, however, as he had already stated, he ventured to differ from his right hon. Friend, he believed that he might even go further. In the time of Mr. Grenville, the opposition to his bill was moved on the express ground that by it the old privilege would be set aside, that it would abrogate important rights of the House, and give up all its ancient claims. Mr. Welbore Ellis, who led the opposition to it on the 30th of March 1770, declared that "it was an essential alteration of the constitution of Parliament, and a total abrogation of one of the most important rights and jurisdictions of the House of Commons," and having moved that the bill should be read a third time that day six months, he was supported by 123 Members against 185. So that the privilege in anything like its present form could only date from 1770. But supposing his right hon. Friend were wrong, and that he were right, were there no circumstances which had, since the grant of the privilege, arisen, and which might render a privilege, of great value then, worthless now. Had there been no change in the circumstances of the House since the time of Elizabeth? Was it not indicative of a long interval, and of an immense alteration, that a seat in that House, which was now an object of eager rivalry, was so little esteemed in the time of Elizabeth that several of the smaller boroughs sent petitions to the Queen, complaining of the burden and praying to be disfranchised. Danger then threatened us

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from the Crown. Did any such danger press now? Was there any possibility—observe, he said possibility, not probability—he would not be satisfied with probability that the same danger from the Crown which existed in the days of Elizabeth, could arise again? Was there any possibility of a recurrence to a time when a monarch could enter that House to seize the persons of five Members, and when the Speaker's predecessor, Mr. Speaker Lenthall, was kneeling on the floor before him. Was it in human possibility that there would be in the present or after times a recurrence to such a state of things? Why then he would put it to his right hon. friend the Member for Montgomery, why should they cling closely to the bulwark when the danger against which that bulwark was erected had utterly passed away? In his view, his right hon. Friend bad turned his face to the east in the morning, to worship the rising sun of liberty, and now, when it had attained its meridian altitude, he was still turning his face eastward, supposing the sun to be yet there! He would yield to no man in respect for ancient institutions. He fully believed, that for the interests of the people themselves, there were few advantages in legislative wisdom equal to these two words, "time immemorial." When his public conduct had hitherto been attacked, it had been generally upon the ground that he had too great a leaning for ancient institutions. When a privilege had real antiquity to plead—when it had now popular respect—when it was free from practical oppression—there was no man who would be more reluctant than himself to part with it. But here all these three conditions were wanting. It was not one of certain antiquity, but rather of doubtful and shifting practice. Neither did it possess popular respect; whenever mention was made of a Parliamentary Committee of Election at popular hustings, it was received with one universal shout of derision. It was not free from practical oppression, but on the contrary, as he had shown, it had inflicted great and grievous wrong. He said, then, that much as he revered any ancient privilege, yet that if he found that either the one or the other stood in the way of equal justice between man and man, sooner than justice should be violated he would say, let privilege crumble into dust. He rejoiced to find that so many persons of reflecting minds out of that House entertained the same opinions as himself. Time was when the people cherished the privilege of that
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House as a safeguard for their liberty, but they now saw that it might be turned against themselves. Time was, when they raised no other cry but "privilege, privilege!" as they shouted around the coach of Charles 1st.; but the people now felt that this privilege might dwindle into an instrument for working injustice and silencing complaints. On this point he would be judged by themselves in this House. Let honourable Members survey closely any case of privilege which had occurred during the last eight or ten years; let them mark how cautious and timid had been their proceedings, and they would see that in truth the feeling was, that if they drew this hateful weapon they would only cut their own fingers with it and so they had prudently allowed it to slumber in its rusty scabbard. With respect to the law of privilege, Sir E. Coke calls it a law a multis ignorata a paucis cognita;" and Blackstone went on to say of it—"The maxims upon which they proceed, together with the method of proceeding, rest entirely in the breast of the Parliament itself, and are not defined and ascertained by any particular stated laws." Now, he humbly conceived that there could be no worse state of law than one where the maxims were not defined or ascertained, and known to few besides the oppressor and the victim. He had heard it stated, in defence of this privilege, that it was possessed by all foreign legislative assemblies; but he thought that this assertion rested on an unsafe foundation. Every member in France was exposed to a sort of election faction, but every petition was there tried by one of the general committees into which the House is divided; so that the system was even more objectionable than ours. With respect to the United States, it was well known that the elections were decided not only by ballot, but by something that approached universal suffrage; and the consequent disorders were such that it was almost impossible for the defeated candidate to petition with any chance of success. He thought, therefore, when they came to examine the analogies, of other free countries that they would be found warnings to deter, not examples to attract. If it could be shown, that the privilege possessed by that House of deciding a petition relating to controverted elections, carried with it any security to the House against any despotic design, he would at once admit that there was good ground why it should be conti-

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nued; but, believing as he did, that it worked unmixed evil; believing that this evil was more the fault of the system than of any individuals; and believing that it had produced great dissatisfaction, and could not fail to give more, he called upon the House to renounce the privilege of deciding upon petitions ensuing out of controverted elections. He called upon them, in the name of justice; he was far from saying, that under the present system, or under that proposed by his right hon. Friend, justice would be always violated. He admitted, that the new committee might sometimes deviate into impartiality. But what he asked the House was, to establish certain and constant justice, instead of occasional and chance-medley justice. He entreated the House to remember, that impartial justice between man and man was the great object of society, and the main boast of civilisation; and he called upon the House not to neglect an opportunity not only of doing justice, but of giving a semblance and a reputation of it in their forms of proceeding. If he wished to characterise in a single sentence the main difference between a half-civilised age and a more polished state of society, he would say, that in the one the Government was always stronger than the law, whilst in the other the law was always stronger than the Government. The latter was now the case in England. Let them look at the proceedings in our courts of law, and comparing them with the same courts two centuries ago, let them see how eminently justice reigned. Why, then, should there be this single exception? Why were they to allow this single black point—this plague-spot of privilege to darken the surrounding expanse of judicial purity. It was impossible that Parliamentary Committees—which he did not hesitate to call the worst courts of justice now remaining in the world, could stand before the advance of enlightenment and knowledge; they could not long survive. They might triumph over him to-night—they might avail themselves of his inferior powers—they might array against him the lights and leaders of that House; but they might depend upon it the time was not far distant when they would be compelled by the popular voice to come round to his opinions when their baneful privileges would be wrested from their reluctant gripe, when what would now appear in the light of a graceful concession, would be wrung from
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them by overpowering necessity. They were the grounds on which he objected to the present system. He would next state to the House the project he had framed, and the plan he would propose; but he would expressly state, that any vote on his resolution would not involve an approbation of his plan. His resolution declared that the objects of justice, uniformity, and despatch, would be best attained by a tribunal not consisting of Members of Parliament; it stated the present system to be a burden; but those who with him stated this, would not be pledged to his precise plan by voting for his resolutions They might entertain any difference of opinion as to the details of his measure. His plan might be stated in two parts, the nature of the tribunal, and the nominating power by which it should be appointed; and he would begin, by stating what he proposed to be the tribunal. He proposed, that it should consist of three assessors, to hold their offices for life, who should have a certain number of years' standing at the bar as a qualification, and should receive an ample yearly salary. He proposed, that this court of assessors should, in the first place, be the court of revision and appeal from the revising barristers. He had not left himself much time to enlarge on this part of his plan, but it was a part of very great importance, for he thought that the present system under which the revising barristers acted, abounding, as their proceedings did, with contradictory decisions, while the offices, from their very nature, were filled by barristers not always of very long standing and experience, called aloud for some court of appeal or revision; by his plan, he expected to obtain the great benefit of uniformity in these decisions. He wished here to observe, that neither in the plan of his right lion. Friend nor in any other now before the House, was any such tribunal introduced or spoken of. He conceived also, however, that these three assessors might be considered as the legal assistants and advisers of this House, and he thought that it might be advantageous to refer to them the private bills which were brought before the House, which were frequently adopted and carried without due inquiry, although it must be perfectly apparent that many of them, from various circumstances, were of a character which rendered it doubtful whether they should pass. He mentioned this to the House, as an advantage which would be merely col-

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lateral to the general purposes for which the assessors would be appointed, and might or might not be hereafter grafted upon it, but all additional reason for his plan being adopted. He proposed, next, that this court of three assessors should have jurisdiction to try cases of controverted elections; their decisions as to the seat should be final, and in cases of general corruption appearing to exist in any boroughs, it should be their duty to report the circumstance to the House, exactly as the Committees were now in the habit of doing. Then there arose this objection, which must be strongly felt in any tribunal formed outside of the House, but the circumstance was unavoidable; that there was a glut of business relating to controverted elections at one time and a deficiency at another, as immediately after the termination of a general election there were many cases for consideration, while at a later period of the Session few presented themselves to be decided. Now, he conceived that the duties of this court in attending to the occasional election petitions which would occur in every year, and also as a court of appeal, for the revising barristers, would fully occupy their time, at the same time that they would enable them to give their decisions upon all such cases as should be brought forward. But, then, another provision was necessary to be considered, in order that there should be no want of attention, and of a means of deciding the cases, after a general election; and he proposed that, when a general election had taken place, if the assessors themselves should consider the press of business to require them to procure assistance, they might address an application to the House, and the parties who had had the power of appointing the original assessors (to whose nomination he should presently refer) should also be authorised to appoint two special assessors to each original assessor; and they being joined together, should conjointly have the power of holding three courts; these special assessors to be also nominated from among the number of legal gentlemen of a certain standing, but their appointments to be only special, and thus these three courts might go on conjointly, each presided over by one of the original assessors, and formed by him and the two assistants, referring all points of abstract law to the original officers, however, so as to produce uniformity in the points of law decided. Thus he conceived,
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that a tribunal would be formed fully adequate to transact the business of the House, while, by the assistance of the special officers, any extraordinary press of business would be prevented at the moment. Then came the question by whom the assessors should be nominated. For his own part, he confessed, that he should have no objection to see them appointed by the judges, for he thought that the objections which had been urged to the judges trying these cases would not apply to the mere nomination of assessors, but as he had found that several persons whose judgments were to be highly respected, had objected to the Judges being called upon to mix themselves up in any manner with the question, he had abstained from including that regulation as a part of his plan. With these preliminary observations, he begged to say what was the nominating power which he proposed. He was fully disposed to take from the Bill of his right hon. Friend near him (Sir Robert Peel), as much as he could conscientiously approve of, and to recommend that a committee of six should have the power of appointing the officers. His right hon. Friend would, he hoped, admit, that if he were committing a plagiarism upon his plan, that he was also candid in avowing his thefts. He proposed, then, that at the outset of every Session, Mr. Speaker should name the committee of six. The words under which this should be provided should be, that a "committee should be chosen fairly and impartially from the whole House, one at least to be a Minister of the Crown, and should be divided by Mr. Speaker into two classes, class A and class B, each class consisting of three persons." Those were the words which might stand in the act. Then his object was, that in class A there should be one Minister of the Crown, and two leading Members on that side of the House, but in class B there should be three Members, selected by the Speaker, who might fairly be said to represent the feelings of the other side. This committee, then, would be equally balanced, and it was to these persons that he proposed that the nomination of the assessors should be given. It would naturally occur to hon. Members, that if this committee should be appointed with that candour, which might be expected from the individual whom he had suggested as the proper person to nominate them, there would not be much fear of their coming to an improper deci-

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sion in the choice of assessors; because, the weight of party would be equally balanced among them. But as it might happen from that very circumstance that they could seldom agree upon a choice, he would suggest this mode of appointment by the committee. On the first occasion, the Minister of the Crown in class A should propose the name of a person duly qualified as an assessor for the appointment, and if he were agreed to by five out of the six, the choice should be considered to be confirmed—if not, then the Minister of the Crown should propose three other names to be referred to class B, and that class should have the power of selecting one of them. On the next occasion, the Minister of the Crown should again propose the name of an individual as an assessor, and if he were not agreed to by five of the six, then the first person nominated by the Speaker in class B, should propose names to be referred to class A, the members of which should have the power of selecting one as assessor. Then he would wish it to be considered whether, by this management of classes, the influence of parties would not be as far as possible neutralised, and whether the assessor would not, in fact, be in such a position as that he could not consider his appointment as a favour from one party more than the other. He would clearly owe equal favour to each for his selection, since the one had selected him to insert him in a list of three, and the other had preferred him to the other two competitors upon the list, and therefore, he would enter upon his office with an equal share of obligation to each of the parties. He conceived, therefore, that in this manner any influence of party in the appointment would be, as far as possible, balanced, and it was his belief, that among the six gentlemen who were nominated there could not exist any difficulty; but he had further to propose, that the Speaker and also the Committee should also act under the sanction of an oath of fair and upright intention. He was not sure whether he had been able to express himself sufficiently clearly; if not, it was in consequence of his plan being complicated; but if that complication were an objection, he could not only say, that the very question of plans which should have the effect of neutralising party, necessarily implied the necessity of complication. Montesquieu had truly said there was nothing simple but despotism, and those institutions
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by which liberty and justice were best preserved, were made up of many guards and checks, which nevertheless acted in a most useful and harmonious manner. He had now stated the main points of his scheme, and he would only make this further observation which he considered to be important in connexion with it, that all plans which he had seen proposed to the House were mainly defective in this, that they gave no protection to a very weak minority, whereas the weaker the minority, the more it ought to be protected from oppression. Now he begged to say, that under his scheme the three members being selected from the opposite sides of the House, whatever the numbers of ministerial or opposition parties, each party might expect equal justice, and this was of such importance that it was one of the chief reasons which had induced him to frame his present measure. He must say, too, at the same time, that notwithstanding the very great care with which he had guarded the appointments to this tribunal which he suggested, he had that faith in the legal profession, and trusted in their integrity and honour so highly, that he believed when any members of its body were appointed assessors, by any nominating power whatever, there would be found more scrupulousness and more correctness in the discharge of their duties, than there would be found in any case decided within the walls of this House. He hoped the House would excuse him if he again stated, that the resolution he should move was not one which must bind them to adopt his plan. He had stated his scheme fully, because he thought it fair to give his right hon. Friend the same advantage over him (Lord Mahon) which he had already obtained over his right hon. Friend, of knowing his details, but at the same time his object was to combine those who were determined to put an end if they could to the present state of things, and who thought almost any system of trial out of the House better than almost any within it. On this point he was determined to try the disposition of the House. He could not conclude without once more earnestly appealing to the conscience of every Member who heard him, entreating them to remember that to provide equal justice in election trials involved not merely their interest as politicians but even their honour as gentlemen. He entreated every one to stand firm against the weight and authority of the opposite leaders in that House, unless he was really convinced in

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truth and conscience that the arguments for retaining the jurisdiction were well founded. If any one, deterred by the inadequate manner in which he had brought this question forward, or swayed by the far superior eloquence which would presently be pointed against him, decided against what he yet felt to be the weight of evidence and argument, he asked would it not be a fitting retribution for such a vote, if he himself, after the next general election, should undergo the tender mercies of those very tribunals which he should have affixed and perpetuated upon his fellowmen? Would it not be a fitting retribution that the same measure which they meted unto others, the same measure should be meted out unto themselves? And then perhaps, when they actually felt the hardships which they now refused to see—beggared perhaps by ruinous expenses—ousted of their just rights—stripped of all redress, and destitute even of the power of complaining—then perhaps they would have to acknowledge as the sharpest aggravation of their sufferings, that their own error, their own vote that evening, produced them, and that like the struck bird who viewed his own feather on the fatal arrow—
"Keen were his pangs, but keener far to feel
His was the pinion that impelled the steel!"
And what consolation would it then be to them to be told, that while members of that House they might luxuriate in the enjoyment of its "inestimable privileges," or that, in the opinion of his right hon. Friend the member for Tamworth, they had rigidly adhered to the precedent of Queen Elizabeth? He himself was not unacquainted with the hardships of these tribunals. It was scarcely six years since he had to stand a trial before a committee, every one of whom, all the eleven, consisted of his decided political opponents. Did he mention that now in order to impute any unworthy conduct, or to awaken any slumbering resentment? Far from it. If he had any feelings of bitterness upon that subject, he trusted that they had long since passed away. He alluded to it only because having experienced, or thought he experienced, the disadvantages of the present state of things, he felt doubly bound in his conscience to avert, as far as in him lay, those disadvantages from others, and to become, if he could, the humble instrument and harbinger of a better system. In bringing this question forward, he had done, as he conceived, his duty; he trusted the House would new do theirs
Mr. Wrightsonrose to oppose the motion of the noble Viscount. He did not mean to follow the noble Lord through the whole of the statements which he had made, but he thought, that the House should pause before they parted with the power which they possessed, and which they had so long exercised. He thought, that if the proposition which had been made were acceded to, the great moral weight which this House ought to possess with the country would cease to be maintained, for they would admit, that they who were sent there to watch over the laws, and to frame new ones, were utterly unable on their oaths, from factious and party feelings, to support their dignity, and to maintain themselves free from partiality and injustice. To accede to this motion would be to cast an indelible stigma upon their name, and he sincerly trusted, that the House would not lend its countenance to such a proceeding. The motion was doubly unnecessary after that which had been brought forward by the right hon. Baronet opposite in the last Session. He agreed with the right hon. Baronet in the belief, that errors existed in the present system which it would be difficult to remove, for the right hon. Baronet had pointed out intrinsic errors of great importance; but he entirely differed from the noble Viscount in the idea, that the plan which be had proposed was at all calculated to remedy those evils, weighty and burdensome as they were. It was undoubtedly incumbent on the House to grapple with the errors which were committed, and to endeavour to get rid of them; but there was a possibility of that being done without the removal of the jurisdiction from within those walls. The right hon. Baronet had shown how it might be done by reposing confidence in Members of that House, by selecting them in a proper manner to try the election petitions; and every one must know the difference between the feelings entertained when people were treated with confidence or otherwise. The election laws doubtless wanted consideration, in order that a series of sound precedents might be established; but still cases would occur where unhappily election committees must be appointed, and where decisions would be come to upon which evil precedents would be formed. Upon this point he could not but revert to the proposal of the hon. Member for Liskeard for the appoint-

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ment of assessors, which would go far to compete with the plan of the right hon. Baronet. He would not give these assessors a vote on the committees; but he would throw out a suggestion, that committees might be permitted to reserve points of law to be disposed of before the then assessors, and when they had come to a decision, which the Committee might adopt or not, it should be placed on the records of the House; and if it should appear that any abuse of this system should arise by the absolute refusal to receive such decisions, he should propose that they might be received at the desire of one-third at least of the Committee. By this means he thought that uniformity of the decisions would, in a great measure, be produced; and the same effects might also be secured by allowing any points raised to be fairly and openly discussed, which would prevent any false decision from being taken as a mischievous precedent. He hoped that the House would handle the question firmly, and that it would join heart and hand in endeavouring to remedy those evils which it was admitted existed. He put it to hon. Members, whether it would not be much more to the credit of the House to work the reform within themselves than to go elsewhere; and whether it would not be better to come to some resolution by which an amended tribunal should be formed within the walls of the House, than that they should be obliged to deny themselves even the virtue of deciding in cases in which they were themselves concerned, confident as he was that integrity and honour were all that were required to render the tribunal complete.
Mr. Pembertonwould not detain the House for more than a few minutes. The question before them was, whether the defects arose from the way in which the committees were formed, or whether in their very nature they were not imperfect. In cases of election committees, every question, in every branch of law, no matter how abstruse, came under the consideration of its Members. He need but refer to a recent case, in which an hon. Gentleman was unseated by a decision involving a nice point of conveyancing. He did not know whether there were any lawyers on that Committee; he believed not; but he would ask how it was possible that a tribunal made up of men who never devoted their time to matters of law could arrive
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at a correct decision upon such subjects? They might be right by accident, but it was impossible they could understand the nature of the questions which came before them. The fact was, the House had not the means of doing justice, and therefore could not administer it. What were the qualities required in any tribunal; strict justice, rigid impartiality, great knowledge, and undisputed authority. Could such requisites be expected in a tribunal composed of Members of that House? A Member of that House might be a lawyer, but he must of necessity be a partisan; it was the very condition on which he entered the House and acquired the privilege of voting. Thus the condition of his election formed the strongest ground of disqualification as a judge. What were the consequences of such a state of things? Why, that the trials of election petitions were often protracted to a great length, and attended with enormous expense to the parties—an expense greatly exaggerated by the ingenious delays of counsel. It was notorious that positions were often advanced by counsel before the Election Committees which no man could, in the presence of a lawyer, sustain for a moment. How was it possible that these Committees, having no knowledge of the subject they were called on to try, no authority over the pasties before them or the counsel conducting the case, could come to a just decision? How was it possible that trials should result otherwise than it was notorious they had done last Session? The same thing happened in Lunatic Commissions. These commissioners were presided over by lawyers of inferior standing in their profession, men of no weight—in fact these tribunals were a disgrace to the country. What was the consequence? The opinions of such lawyers went for nothing, they were overruled by the superior talents and weight of the counsel pleading before them, and the proceedings were protracted to any length at the pleasure of the parties. This did not result from any partiality or corruption on the part of the parties called on to decide, but merely from want of knowledge of the subject brought before them. This defect seemed to him inherent in tribunals such as the election committees of the House of Commons—a defect which led not only to gross injustice, but often to enormous expense. The question, then, was, whether they could get rid

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of so monstrous an evil, not by altering the judges, but by altering the mode by which the tribunal was constituted. He thought it was utterly impossible. Two plans had been proposed to the House last Session, one by the hon. Member for Liskeard, the other by the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth. The right hon. Baronet proposed to select a permanent tribunal, composed of Members of that House, including the lawyers. Now, though he did not wish to claim any exemption for the members of his profession, he very much doubted whether such a selection, including the lawyers, would achieve the desired object. He entirely agreed, that either plan would be an improvement on the present system. Of the two, he should prefer that of his right hon. Friend. But what assurance had they, in the first place, that when they had appointed the lawyers—who must necessarily belong to one party or the other—that their legal knowledge would have any weight with the opposite party, or that the Committee itself would be guided by their opinion? If they appointed an assessor with merely a right to give his opinion, the Committee might dissent; and if they appointed legal Members of that House, did they expect to find, in any Parliament, half-a-dozen lawyers of whose impartiality and legal knowledge the House and the country would have such an opinion as to make their decisions satisfactory to all? Further, he would say, that nine out of ten of the lawyers practising in the courts in which he had the honour to practise—the Court of Chancery, for instance—were ignorant of the questions brought before Election Committees. But suppose they could get five or six lawyers in the House competent and satisfactory, were they to be placed on all Committees? By the plan of the right hon. Baronet, any Member sitting on one Committee might claim an exemption from the rest; but even if that were not the case, they could not serve on all. It was supposed, that lawyers, on a Committee, would have such weight as to guide the decisions of that Committee; but he remembered a case in which Sir W. Grant and Sir F. Pollock divided on different sides. He did not wish to give the slightest offence to hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side, but it would be in the recollection of the House, that there had been a decision of a Committee, including emi-
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nent lawyers, on a Scotch election which was far from giving satisfaction to the country. There was another decision of a Committee—one, too, the impartiality of which could not be impeached, because by it a Tory Committee displaced a Tory candidate, and because the Committee was presided over by an individual preeminent for talent; but still that decision was generally disapproved of. He could not forbear, with these facts before him, expressing his opinion, that neither the appointment of an assessor or the selection of professional Members, would gain the confidence of the public or afford a hope of justice to the parties. Now, all these objections would be remedied by the resolution proposed by his noble Friend. He valued that plan for its great collateral advantage of affording a check on the decisions of the revising barristers, and for its more important result of doing away with the present Election Committees. He believed, that the appointment of a tribunal of the sort proposed by his noble Friend, by which election petitions and private bills would be investigated, would put an end to all the complaints of partiality now loud on both those matters; and that, so far from its wanting full employment, as some Members apprehended, he thought the only question was, whether the tribunal would be sufficient for the discharge of the duty that would devolve on it. There was, in fact, no question about privilege; the question was, whether they were to have a tribunal worthy to decide, or one wholly deficient in the requisite knowledge. It had been suggested, that they would find as much difficulty in getting impartial judges out of the House as in it—that the lawyers out of the House were as bad as the professional Members of the House; but he believed in the first place that persons in that House, moving in an atmosphere of political excitement, thought that persons out of the House were much more inflamed in their political feelings than they really were; and, moreover, he had not the slightest doubt that there were plenty of eminent lawyers out of the House who cared very little in what hands the Government of the country was placed, and that there would be no difficulty in getting a tribunal capable of giving impartial judgments, and totally free from all political bias. But take the opinion of a lawyer of that House, and he would as soon have his right hon. and

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learned Friend opposite to decide as his hon. and learned Friend beside him. It was a very different case when a lawyer was called on out of that House to decide on a point of law, and when he was sitting in it on a confessedly partial tribunal. In his opinion the appointment of impartial committees was a question involving the dignity of that House. What was the plan now proposed for that purpose by his noble Friend? Did it interfere with any privilege now exercised? Did they now exercise the authority so much prized in their own person? No, they exercised it by deputy; and that was the very point his noble Friend was now taunted on as interfering with the privileges of the House—an objection existing in the tribunal as at present constituted. His noble Friend did not propose to do anything more than they did at present; they delegated their authority now, and they were simply asked to change the mode of this delegation. His noble Friend proposed to them to appoint certain persons to inquire on their behalf on the merits of a question on which they themselves were afterwards to decide; and the only question was, not whether they were to delegate their authority, but whether they should delegate it to a competent or incompetent tribunal. He confessed when he remembered the scene which had occurred last Session, to which the exercise of this privilege had led—when he remembered those painful scenes, not only painful with respect to hon. Members of that House, but to persons who appeared at their bar—when he looked back at those scenes, he must confess that it appeared to him that they would consult the character, the respectability of that House, and their own comfort, by delegating their authority to persons who would never permit such scenes as those to which he alluded. Every one remembered the indignation with which those scenes were viewed by the public. There remained only one objection to the plan of his noble Friend; it was, that, if they parted with their jurisdiction on election petitions, they would never again recover it. Now, if there was one thing more than another in which there was an absence of danger, it was this. There was no danger of the other portions of the Legislature attempting to prevent them deciding on their affairs—there was no danger of the authority of that House being interfered with by the Crown or the
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other House. It was impossible to look abroad on the present political aspect of this country, and of Europe, without seeing that, whatever might be the danger to be apprehended for the liberties of the country, or the powers of that House, that danger would not come from the monarchial or the aristocratic portion of the Legislative. It was impossible not to see that the tide of public opinion was now setting strongly in favour of popular democratic Government, and the danger was, not from the encroachments of the aristocracy or the Throne, but that that tide might become so potent as to overwhelm in its progress every vestige of the Constitution. He could not see that the slightest danger was to be apprehended from the plan his noble Friend had introduced, and for this reason—believing that they never could constitute an impartial tribunal out of partial persons—that they never could introduce into that tribunal, as at present constituted, the degree of knowledge and impartiality necessary—believing that these advantages might be secured, he would support the resolution of his noble Friend. He believed that the House would best consult its real dignity by increasing its utility, by showing that they did not set up their privileges in opposition to justice, but were willing to rest their claims on public approbation in adopting every mode by which the public interest in election matters would be best consulted.
Sir R. Peelwished, that his noble Friend had read the whole of Mr Grenville's speech. He did not himself pretend to remember it very accurately, indeed, it was but imperfectly reported; but as far as he could venture to speak of it from memory, he thought, that Mr. Grenville, in a few sentences after the paragraph relating to triers, said, that from a very remote period, and certainly from an early period in the reign of King James, the House of Commons had determined to exercise that privilege for itself. Very eminent writers on the constitution had declared, that the power of determining who were Members of Parliament was a privilege of the House of Commons, and that it was a very important privilege; and all popular assemblies had confirmed this notion of its great importance by the singular fact that all of them, without exception, had determined, that the right of jurisdiction in all controverted elections

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should be seated, as a matter of course, in the assembly itself. When Mr. Hume spoke of the attempts made by Queen Elizabeth, and afterwards renewed by King James, to claim for the Crown the power to issue writs, and to decide on the right to hold the seat—after mentioning the successful efforts of the Commons in resistance to such a claim, he said,—
"A power like this, so essential to the exercise of all their other powers, themselves so essential to public liberty, cannot fairly be deemed au encroachment on the part of the Commons, but must be regarded as an inherent privilege, happily rescued from the ambiguity which the neglect of some former Parliaments had thrown upon it."
That was the opinion of Mr. Hume upon the importance of this privilege. He, therefore, thought, that his noble Friend was not quite correct in asserting, that the House of Lords, or even, that a committee of the House of Lords, had ever had a right to decide on the petitions affecting election returns. Again, in the year 1624, the House of Commons, by a resolution entered on its journals, declared that it was its natural and undoubted right to examine the validity of all elections and returns. At the period of the Revolution a similar declaration was made, and by the act of the 7th and 8th of William 3rd., the last determination of the House of Commons as to its right to examine into the validity of elections was made public. But his noble Friend had hit upon some resolution contained in the journals for the year 1661, a period, by the bye, when the House of Commons, and popular rights were not in high favour with the country, in which he found some precedent for the right to seats in the House of Commons being tried by the House of Lords. His noble Friend had said, that "there were triers of petitions appointed by the Lords." But the appointment of triers by that assembly did not show that the House of Lords had taken upon itself the power of determining the right to seats in the House of Commons. It was easy for his hon. and learned Friend near him to say, that their privileges might in these days be relinquished without danger, and that there was more peril to them at present from the democracy than from the monarchy or the aristocracy. In that way, however, all their privileges might be argued away and gradually
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abandoned. His hon. and learned Friend appeared to consider that he had successfully demonstrated that there would be no difficulty in the constitution of this new tribunal. That was the very point on which he placed, and on which he wished the House to place, the greatest stress. He said, "Don't come to any abstract resolution until you have solved all the practical difficulties of the subject. Let us see your bill, and let us argue it clause by clause. We are to have three lawyers appointed as judges, who are to hold their situations for the term of their natural lives; who are to be independent of us; who are to decide on the right of voting; who are to decide on the right of seats in Parliament; and who are to have some power of controlling legislation on private bills. I am not certain that these three lawyers, who will be very important Gentlemen in the House, from being irremovable, and from having a right to decide upon our seats, will not soon become very important authorities in the country." And what was the satisfaction which his hon. and learned Friend gave him for the success of this new tribunal! Let the House hear: "the present tribunal for election petitions," said his hon. and learned Friend, "is the very worst in the world. The one which approximates the most closely to it is that for trying lunatic commissions. And why is it so unsatisfactory? Because the judges in it are lawyers, the worst judges in the world after our election committees. And why are they so? Because they are men not eminent in their profession, and because the counsel who plead before them are their superiors in public repute and estimation." And yet his hon. and learned Friend, after language like that wished to have a lunatic commission for the House of Commons. He was to have three lawyers appointed as judges, who were to hold their situations for life, and who were, of course, to be in the receipt of large salaries. Would his hon. and learned Friend venture to affirm that these three lawyers would be able to perform the duties of their station at that period when it was most important that they should perform them—namely, immediately after a general election? If those three lawyers should be sitting, as they might be, for three months on one case of controverted election, all the rest of the election petitions must of necessity fall into arrear. But his noble

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Friend had a suggestion to meet that inconvenience. Each of these three independent and irremovable judges was to be at liberty to choose two journeymen judges. They were to be employed occasionally, and these two inferior judges were to sit along with their superior, in this newfangled tribunal. What security have you that you will get eminent men for this temporary duty? Evidently what took place on the Lunatic Commissions, would take place before this tribunal. The counsel practising before it would be superior to two-thirds at least of the judges; and thus the authority of the judges would be inferior to that of the counsel with the country. The same consequences would follow then, as followed now—their adjudications would not give satisfaction. It might happen, that they were contradictory, and then the same objections would be urged against them, as were now urged against those of the Committees of the House of Commons. One word more as to these three judges, who were to hold their situations for life. The time must sooner or later come when they would begin to suffer under the infirmities of age. They would, however, be fastened upon the House, and there would be no possibility of removing them. There would be a feeling, that they were honourable men—that they were men of intellect; and yet there would be a conviction, that their powers were failing. Who, then, would have to determine whether they ought or ought not to retire? Was their retirement to be decided by a majority of the House of Commons? He took it for granted that the House would not allow the Crown to dismiss a judge of its appointment. What authority, then, must give a failing judge the hint to retire? If it were to be a majority of the House of Commons, they would open the whole question of political interference. The judge might possess integrity, impartiality, independence, learning, competency; but when his powers began to decay, the painful question would arise as to who should suggest to him the propriety of retirement? He wished to see all these matters regulated in a bill. The noble Lord had referred to his six Members of Parliament to be selected from the House of Commons for a certain purpose. He said they were to have the selection of the judges but they were to have no power to superintend their decisions or to remove
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them when they became incompetent from age. He could not help thinking, that if his noble Friend were obliged to resort to a combination of parties in the House of Commons for the alternate selection of his judges or triers, it behoved the House to consider whether it did not contain materials for the constitution of a safe and honourable tribunal. His noble Friend had referred to the description of the House of Commons before the passing of the Grenville Act. But he (Sir R. Peel) might refer to the description of the House for forty years after it; he might refer to the universal satisfaction which it gave during that time; and thus he might show, that those materials which under one constitution had worked nothing but injustice, had under another constitution, met all these questions of law and worked universal content. He believed the reason why the present tribunal was unsatisfactory plainly arose from the mode in which the House now constituted them; they infused party feeling into the origin of the proceedings; and continued that noxious element to the end. The summoning Members to the ballot, the custom of striking, the whole selection of the committees, the exclusion of lawyers, and of the good sense of the House, had a tendency to make the test utterly unsatisfactory. The impeachment lay not upon the honour and integrity of the House, but the unsatisfactory mode in which the tribunals were constituted. His noble Friend said, "Will you commit the enormity of making a lawyer serve upon these Committees?" Most certainly he would; and he would say to every lawyer, "If you choose to be a Member of the House of Commons, the first demand upon you, is to perform the duties of a judge upon an Election Committee." He would not hind a lawyer more than any other man; he did not want to take any unfair advantage of his professional talents and knowledge, or to lessen the fair gains he might expect to derive from his legal pursuits; he would not force him to be a Member of the House of Commons; but if that lawyer deliberately presented himself as a candidate for the suffrages of a constituency, and were chosen to represent them in the House of Commons, he should not allege the loss of his professional emoluments as a bar to his serving on a Committee. But the lawyer might say, "My clients will suffer." Why, if

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they had fair notice, that the lawyer was subject to take his turn to serve upon an Election Committee like other Members, and that persons more competent than the generality of Members, were not to be excluded on preferring a plea of business in another place, and if they then chose to employ him, they did so at their own risk, and could not in justice complain. Yet surely to oblige one lawyer to decide on probably only one case during a whole Parliament could not be so great a demand on his time and trouble as to subject him to much inconvenience, or to entail on his clients the loss of his professional assistance. But it was clear, that if the lawyer of high professional attainments so far preferred party attachments, or the large arena of public life, to the dulness of professional labour, that he sought to enter the House of Commons, that House had exactly the same claim on him to contribute the amount of his professional knowledge and experience in the performance of a public duty as it had on any other Member, however inferior his attainments. He did not consider it necessary on the present occasion to enter at any length into the case, or discuss its details minutely: There was not time to examine the features of his own plan; he had brought in a bill, as his noble Friend well knew, last Session, and if his noble Friend thought, that that bill would serve his purpose in any degree, or be of any use to him, he would be most willing to relinquish it to him, especially after the spirit his noble Friend had shown to-night, and the ability with which he had argued the question. Neither he nor his noble Friend could be influenced by any party feeling on this subject. His notions regarding it were once not far different from those of his noble Friend; but, whatever they might have been, they now widely disagreed. What he had said on the question of privilege he would say now—that whatever his opinions might have been as to the original construction of the body that was to decide on disputed points, he would not allow them to influence him on a question of this kind; but he would ask the House if they would be pursuing a wise and cautious course in the opinion of the world by allowing it to go forth to the public that they were unfit for the satisfactory performance of their duties? He should not explain the provisions of his own measure, nor enter
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further into the plan of his noble Friend. He had only made use of it for the purpose of inculcating on the House the necessity of seeing the whole bill, and examining the various modes proposed of solving the practical difficulties that presented themselves, before consenting by an abstract resolution, to deprive itself of a power it had so long enjoyed. If they parted with this privilege, so long possessed and exercised, fought for by the House in former times, and defended by the most eminent writers as a safeguard of the public liberties, let them depend on it they ought to place their motives on record—they ought to state in the bill sent up to the House of Lords the reasons why the present House of Commons thought fit to relinquish a jurisdiction asserted by their predecessors. If they felt absolutely convinced that the interests of justice required it, if to that frightful alternative they must come, at least let them not rush to it precipitately or lightly; let them solemnly declare in the preamble of the bill the grounds on which the House of Commons solicited the intervention of the Lords. They were to leave the House of Peers in possession of the privilege of determining their own Members, but they were to approach that House and ask them to assist the Commons in depriving themselves of a power which, by their own confession, they were incapable of wielding. On a former occasion, by way of manifesting his desire to co-operate with his noble Friend on this question, he had submitted to him a draught of what he thought was a proper preamble for the bill in contemplation; and he now begged leave to recommend the following sketch to his noble Friend, as incorporating the views of the movers of this proposition:—"Whereas this House hath in former times considered the power of deciding in all matters relating to the election of its members as a privilege essential to the maintenance of its independence, and hath uniformly resisted all attempts at encroachment on its right of jurisdiction; but whereas it hath become notorious that the House of Commons bath, particularly since the passing of the Reform Act, grossly abused this privilege, that it is no longer worthy to be intrusted with it"—[Laughter]. Can you shrink from this? Can you avoid the degrading confession? "and whereas the House doth accordingly penitently acknowledge its unfitness and uncleanness, and, despairing

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of the possibility of purification, doth consent, from a deep sense of its unworthiness, to relinquish this honourable privilege, and place it in some tribunal more honourable, more impartial, and more worthy of the public confidence; be it therefore enacted," &c. Could they deny that that language was not too strong? Let them go with this humiliating acknowledgment in their mouths, if after mature reflection they felt persuaded that no modification of the present tribunal would answer the purpose of justice. That ought to be the paramount consideration; but again he said, before you put on record the resolution which was to lead to these consequences, you must require the bill to be produced which is to constitute the new tribunal, and compare it with other measures which propose to reserve to the House of Commons its present jurisdiction under an amended system. He agreed with his noble Friend that the power of the House over the country did not depend on privilege, but on the force of public opinion, and it was therefore that he implored them to consider the means of amending the plan now in use, which he thought defective, and calculated to weaken their hold on public confidence. He submitted it as a matter of anxious apprehension whether the House of Commons would not inflict on its consequence a fatal blow, if it should be compelled to proclaim to the world that while the House of Lords retained the privilege of deciding on the right of its members to sit within its precincts, the Commons of England were so hopelessly corrupt, so infected with the spirit of party, that all attempts at improvement were useless—that as men of honour, as men of common sense, and common intelligence, they must declare themselves unfit to do in this Parliament the duty which all former Parliaments had performed. Would they do this? Would they in the condition of suppliants apply to the united wisdom of Parliament to relieve them from duties of which they were incapable, relinquish a jurisdiction to which their ancestors attached great importance, and transfer it to other hands on account of their own unworthiness and incurable imperfections? Entertaining the opinions that he did on the subject of Reform, while he remained a Member of that House, he should consider that he adhered most closely to the true principles of that Conservative policy he embraced, by stand-
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ing as long as he could in the ancient ways of the constitution, and maintaining the respective powers of the state in the due possession of their authority and privileges.
Mr. Bernalhad little to say on the present occasion, but felt, that he should be wanting in duty to himself if he did not express his opinion on the subject before the House. He considered that his noble Friend deserved great credit for the manner in which he had brought the subject forward, and expressed his opinion on it, and he did not think that the ridicule that fell from the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last was any argument against the main part of his noble Friend's speech. He could not forget, that if they changed the mode of constituting the present tribunal, they would not change the component parts of it, nor the elements of which it was formed. He would ask, whether an oath was still deemed necessary? Did the right hon. Baronet propose to get rid of the oath to be taken by the members of the tribunal? Was it still to be said that in the minds of six hundred and fifty-eight gentlemen an oath was not regarded as something binding? Would the reduction of the number of the Members of the tribunal secure more regard to this sanction? Would they, by reducing the number, increase the feeling of the obligation of the oath in the minds of those who took it? If they did not get rid of the difficulty about the oath, it would be of minor importance whether or not they reduced the number of the members of the tribunal. He did not agree with the opinion expressed on the other side of the House, that all the difficulties on this subject had arisen since the passing of the Reform Act. He denied that this was the case, for he had been long enough in that House—now nearly eighteen years—to recollect many similar complaints of a similar kind to those now made, and where the same doubts were stated and the same objections urged against the constitution of the tribunal. He recollected that soon after he came into Parliament he acted as nominee on an election committee, and on that occasion, in consequence of a decision which the committee came to with regard to frivolous costs, the late Mr. Tierney thought it to be his duty to get up in his place in Parliament and call the attention of the House to the subject. So striking were the anomalies of

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the subject at that time, that Mr. Tierney departed from his usual cautious course, and stated, that the constitution of the tribunal did not give satisfaction. This was not a singular case in which complaints were made, as he recollected many instances of a similar kind. Indeed, as long as the present constitution of the tribunal continued, he feared one pity would ever complain until the end of the chapter. But it would ever be the case where the majority of the members of the tribunal were thought to have a strong political bias. The House was not then called upon to decide upon either the plan of the noble Lord or that of the right hon. Gentleman; but it was, in the first place, called upon to state that it was its deliberate opinion that the system acted upon did not work well at present; and, secondly, that it would not work well as long as the present tribunal was continued. There was one of the evils of the present system, however, which had not been sufficiently considered, and which led him to the conclusion that they had begun at the wrong end. What he meant was, that they must reform the statute book on this subject. So long; as they had vacillating and contradictory statutes on this subject, they would have uncertain decisions from the tribunal which had to try the cases. The statute book, with reference to treating, bribery, and other matters that were referred to election committees, were most contradictory, and were often little more than traps to catch the unwary. He had no hesitation in saying, that the statute book in matters of this kind was in a disgraceful state; and no tribunal having to determine on contested elections would possess the confidence of the country until some changes were made in the statute book. He would challenge any lawyer, in that House or out of it, to give a satisfactory decision as to what was or was not treating. If they referred cases of this kind to the first lawyers, they would have contradictory decisions on the present state of the law; he therefore maintained that they were beginning at the wrong end. He should be much gratified if he saw an attempt of all parties, without distinction, to remove this blot from the Legislature. He knew that it would be a most laborious task, but he trusted that either a committee would take up the subject, or that a commission of the most eminent legal authorities would be ap-
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pointed to diligently examine all the laws on the statute book on this subject, and from them to draw up one clear and definite law on the subject of treating, bribery, and other similar matters, instead of having nearly 500 scattered through the statute book. He contended that a committee should at once be appointed with a view of at once devising a mode for remedying these manifold evils, and if this were done he thought that it would wipe away many of those stains that appertained to the present system. He regretted that the right hon. Baronet had not proposed something to this effect. [Sir R. Peel did so last year.] He was not aware of this; but regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had not persisted in his suggestion. [Sir R Peel: It was a question for the Government.] He did not agree in that opinion. The Government had many great questions to occupy its attention, and he did not allude more to the present than to former administrations, but equally to all governments, whether in the present year or in 1829; and this was a question which it was peculiarly the duty of the House to take up. It was not a question to be taken up by any particular party, but by the House in general. There could be no doubt that there was a taint on their present proceedings, as regarded this tribunal, and as long as this taint continued, and the course which he had just suggested was not followed, he had no other resource than to grasp at the motion of his noble Friend. He thought that it was comparatively immaterial, whether the tribunal consisted of eleven or of only six Members, as long as there was a want of confidence in the tribunal. The right hon. Gentleman asked, whether the House would agree to a resolution which was condemnatory of its own character. He would ask, whether this opinion had not already been pronounced, if not by the House, at least by the country. Had the right hon. Baronet forgotten, that at the commencement of the last Session, in almost every newspaper, there were comments usque ad nauseam on the proceedings of the Election Committees, and complaints of all parties of the decisions they came to? Did the Members of the Committee take the oath under the plea that they were ignorant men, and not being either equity lawyers nor common lawyers, that whatever decision they came to, they did not incur any penalty in the eyes of

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God or man? Would the right hon. Gentleman show to him, why the oath to be taken by the Members of the tribunal should be more binding on the consciences of six men, than on those of eleven men? If the moral obligation of an oath was not found binding on the consciences of eleven Gentlemen, he could not thank that it would produce any great moral effect if they struck the number of Gentlemen down to six. With reference to the lawyers, it often happened that a Committee bad the benefit of having a member of the legal profession on it; but it did not appear that this made any great difference in its decisions. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, that the House was entitled to the services of lawyers, Members of that House, in these Committees, and he did not see why they, any more than other Members, should be excused from serving. In the observations that he had made, he had not alluded more to one side of the House than to the other. He saw no other remedy to get out of the dilemma in which they were, than to have a careful digest of the statutes on this subject; but until this was done, and properly done, he thought that the most advisable course to pursue was to adopt the plan of his noble Friend.
Mr. Williams Wynnagreed most entirely with the hon. Gentleman opposite, when he stated that they were beginning at the wrong end. He did believe, that it was the first duty of the House of Commons, if it wished to improve the present manner of deciding questions arising out of contested elections, to look through the law of elections as it stood on the statute book, and at once to decide the disputed points. He wished, more than any thing, that out of their discussions that evening some plan should originate. During the period that the Reform Bill was in agitation, he had proposed to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Althorp, to separate those parts of the measure which related to the formation of new constitutions of the elective bodies from those which related to registration of votes, and to bring in the latter, as a separate measure, at a later period; because that was a part of the plan which could not properly be investigated by the House in the existing state of parties, but which might have been advantageously referred to a committee up stairs; and he had always regretted that this course had not been fol-
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lowed, because there were many points regarding the registration, on which great confusion and difference of opinion existed at present, which might have been rendered more clear, if not settled at once, by means of investigation before a committee. He recollected, too, at that time, urging upon his noble Friend, Lord Althorp, the policy and justice of bringing in a declaratory bill, for the purpose of deciding some of those points on which parties were wont to differ as the voters of trustees; where the distance of seven miles was to be measured from; whether the decisions of the revising barrister were to be final or not final; all which were points that it appeared to him essential should be settled by the decision of the Legislature. With respect to the proposal to constitute a tribunal of appeal, in order to a final decision of disputed points, which would in itself, it was said, prevent the necessity of further legislative alterations, he must say, he thought the best course for the House to adopt was to appoint a select committee to consider fully the disputed parts of the election law. As to the question of bribery, he did not think it would be possible to effect any very extensive change; because, in questions of this kind, the law and the facts were usually so much mixed up together, that it was most difficult to frame any general measure for the remedy of the evils, great as they unquestionably were, of the law as it at present stood. At the period of the Reform Bill he was sanguine enough to hope that, by the establishment of numerous polling places, an end would be put to the system of refreshments to voters, and also to charges for conveyance; and if he had sat on an election committee soon after the passing of that bill, and the question of entertainments had come before him, he should have decided that refreshment of every kind whatever, was treating. This he stated, and stated freely. He had known persons who had maintained, that a candidate who lived in his own county, unless he locked his doors, and prevented his voters from coming in and taking a glass of beer, or eating a bit of beef, was guilty of treating; and the committee ought to look upon this as treating. But with respect to the resolution of the noble Lord, he felt that a resolution embodying and pledging the House to an abstract proposition, was the most unfit measure that could possibly be selected to effect the noble Lord's views; it was most unfit to

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say, that the House is dissatisfied and disgusted with the present system, without saying what they were to do to amend it. If the noble Lord would bring forward the measure he had in view, he, for one, would give it the fullest consideration, but, to be called upon to affirm a principle of this sort, was what he was not prepared for. With respect to what bad fallen from the noble Lord in reference to the triers of petitions appointed by the House of Lords, he was obliged to differ from the view of the question adopted by the noble Lord. True it was, that the House of Lords had, in very early times, and did yet, appoint triers of petitions, but not, that he was aware of, for the purposes supposed by the noble Lord. These triers of petitions were appointed so long ago as the reign of Henry 4th, when (it being the custom, as appeared, to name some of the judges) we found the name of Sir John Gascoigne, Chief Justice of England, at the head of the list. These triers were appointed just as they now were, and for similar objects. Next in the journals came the list of receivers of petitions; there were also the triers of petitions for Brittany, and the triers of petions for Gascony. The right hon. Gentleman, read various entries, in Norman-French, from the Lords' journals, with a view of showing, that these officers had never had any relation to the elections of Members of the House of Commons; in his opinion the quotation of the noble Lord from the speech of Mr. Grenville in reference to this subject, ought to have the less weight with the House, because it was most unfair to look to the published debates of that period as conveying the least idea of what really passed in Parliament. The debates were especially defective from the middle of George 2nd's reign, down to 1774; privilege was insisted on at that time, and it was, in consequence, quite impossible to tell whether what passed was correctly reported or not, more especially as the debates were not published till long after the interest in them was quite gone; but when the noble Lord stated, that the cognizance of questions of elections was founded upon, comparatively, recent resolutions of that House, he thought the noble Lord must have overlooked that part of the speech of Mr. Grenville, of the 7th March, 1770, where (as was reported), he said—
"In this House committees were constantly chosen to examine into elections; and in 1672,
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the Chancellor, having claimed the right of deciding contested elections, the Commons ordered a committee of 200 for that purpose, and resolved, that all who attended this committee should have voices. The establishment of committees has continued ever since; but during the time that the late Mr. Onslow presided in that Chair, the admirable order with which he conducted business, as well as some irregularities which took place in the committees induced such as wished for a candid trial, to be heard at the bar of the House"
With respect to the question which had been put by the hon. Member for Rochester in asking whether the House had any more reason to trust to the oaths of a committee of six, than of a committee of eleven, he was disposed to go further, and ask, why, if an oath was really found to have no effect on the conduct of Members of that House, they were to suppose, that an oath would be more binding upon a jury, or any other set of men? The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pemberton) had said, that lawyers felt, to a great degree, unbiassed, either one way or the other, when placed upon these committees. Now, it was long since he left the profession, but he must say, that as far as his means of judging extended, he thought, that a lawyer was as liable to have a bias on his mind as any other Member of that House. He felt much aversion to the proposal of the three judges. These triumvirs, if appointed as it was proposed they should be, would, in fact, be made the fourth estate of the realm, and by no means the least powerful estate of it. Then they were to hold their offices for life. Now, it deserved to be considered that it was possible these judges might fail of giving satisfaction to the House and the public, and that long after they might have wholly lost their credit and character for impartiality it would be impossible to lay a finger on cases of partiality so full and clear as to enable the House to address for their removal. But on the question of impartiality, he must say he thought, that if parties were less nearly divided, there would be a much greater tendency than at present to impartiality in the decisions of their election committees. He certainly thought, that the present tribunal for the trial of controverted elections had ceased to give that satisfaction which was desirable. He, for one, was far from being disposed, however, to give his assent to the bill of the noble Lord which proposed to amend the present tribunal. He should wish the noble Lord to move his bill, and let the House see what it was. He wished

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extremely, that Government would adopt some measure for the appointment of a tribunal of appeal in decisions, so as to make the decisions arrived at final. Many other measures he thought might be suggested of a secondary nature for the purpose of obtaining agreement amongst the Members, which would not, by the arrangement suggested, be insured, as each person would support his own opinion.
Sir R. Inglisconcurred in the principle of the proposed bill. He thought, that the existing system was bad, and ought to be amended. He submitted to his right hon. Friend, that his own preamble might be applied to his own bill. It was not necessary for them to state, that they were essentially corrupt; but it would be necessary for them to state, for the purposes of the bill of the noble Lord, that they had always acted corruptly, or at least in a majority of cases; unless that were the case, there would be no necessity for his bill. Unless the House was prepared to make some alterations, whether they had the bill of his right hon. Friend or of his noble Friend, it mattered little. He was glad that his hon. Friend, the Chairman of the Ways and Means (Mr. Bernal), had thrown out a suggestion in this Session, to which he had begged to call the attention of the House in the last. He was not afraid of any decision that the judges appointed might come to. He believed they might trust to their jurisdiction their lives, their honour, and their property—that property on which depended their political influence. If they could trust the decision of the judges of England in the case of that property, why not trust to them in the decision of cases connected with the exercise of the power which that property gave them. There were several considerations which particularly recommended such a tribunal more than any other. He was certain that some change must take place. Even his right hon. Friend, the Member for Montgomeryshire, was satisfied that there must be some change. There were also other considerations, which had weight in relation to the appointment of the judges as the legal tribunal for the trial of controverted elections. They possessed a knowledge of the law, which could never be supposed to be found in any inferior members of the profession. He would ask, if it could be gravely stated, that the election tribunals, as now existing, were distinguished for their knowledge of the law
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relating to Parliamentary elections. He said they were distinguished, not for knowledge of that law, but for ignorance of it. He said, that a tribunal so constituted of the judges, would possess that general knowledge of the law which would properly guide them. He would suggest, to have this provision embodied in the bill. He threw it out as a consideration which, in his opinion, was not unworthy of notice, that eight additional judges should be appointed; that the judges should take circuits, which would lessen the existing expenses of the investigation. The investigations should take place on the spot, which would save all the expense of bringing witnesses to London. He believed, in an election case last Session, 200 witnesses were brought up and kept in London for many weeks. He would not refer to any details; they might probably excite animosity: but he might mention this as an historical fact, 'that 200 witnesses were kept last Session for several months in London. Would not all that expense be saved by a circuit of judges? They would get justice from the character of the judges; they would get uniformity of decision also; and they would get despatch and save expense. Without pledging himself to anything else, except the abstract proposition then suggested by his noble Friend, he would state, that there were behind the resolution plans, that the House might hereafter sanction. Upon that ground, he trusted, that his noble Friend would not withdraw his resolution, but give the House the opportunity of deciding upon it. He trusted, that a majority of the House would give his noble Friend an opportunity of bringing forward his resolution.
Lord John Russellthought the course which had been taken by the hon. Gentleman opposite rather a singular one. The hon. Gentleman did not say to the noble Lord who brought forward the proposition, "This is a proposition which I am ready to support and to recommend to the House: I do not say there may not be better plans, but let us hasten to shake all confidence in the present tribunal; let us tell the country that no justice is to be got from an election committee; and let us not care about leaving it in doubt when or how we are to get a better system." Until something better was tried of the existing materials, he did not believe that that was a course which the House ought

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to adopt. But still farther to shake the constitution of the country, his hon. Friend proposes that the power of judging elections should be given to the judges, and that six or eight should be added to the number of these judges. Now he had the highest respect for the judges and for their decisions on the cases at present brought before them; but if there were any increase of their number, and if they should be continually expected to try political cases, if they should try the case of the hon. Member for Dublin, or the hon. Member for Westminster, or any other political case respecting which a great deal of excitement existed, then he would ask whether it was likely that the general reverence, the universal respect, now paid to the judges could any longer be experienced? He now came to consider the proposition made by the noble Lord, and he must say he could not go with him either in the tribunal he would establish, or in the remedy he would propose. It was not necessary, after the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Tamworth, and the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Montgomery, that he should go into the history of these tribunals. He thought they had fully established a contradiction to what the noble Lord had quoted (probably a mutilated and ill-repotted extract from Mr. Grenville's speech), that from the time of Elizabeth and James 1st, down to the present time, when the noble Lord made his proposition, these powers had been regarded by the House of Commons as indispensable to their privileges and interest in them. In the well-known discussion on the great case of Abbott v. White, in which the most considerable persons of the time took a part, the Lord Chancellor Cowper, Lord Chancellor King, Sir Joseph Jekyl, and many others who had seats on the judicial bench—in that great discussion the right of this House to try questions of elections was fully decided, and what was the resolution come to? "That according to the known law and usages of Parliament, it was the sole right and province of the Commons House of Parliament, excepting in cases otherwise provided for by Act of Parliament, to examine and determine on all cases relating to the election of their own Members." That privilege they claim as one, which should, on no account, be taken from the House of Commons. When parties were very much
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divided in this House, as in the case of Sir Robert Walpole, to which the noble Lord alluded, then, no doubt, from the heat of party, it was found that the House was not a fair tribunal to try those questions. Afterwards Mr. Grenville proposed his scheme, by which the tribunal was still kept in the House of Commons, but which improved its judgments by entrusting election questions to a select body of the House of Commons, instead of to the whole House. The noble Lord admitted, that for a considerable time that plan worked well. But he (Lord John Russell) must say, that the cause given for this appeared to him a very fanciful one. The noble Lord had said, that as there were a certain number of Members for close boroughs who were not party men, and that being on election committees they contributed to the impartiality of the decisions. Now, if there were any regular party men on one or the other side of the House, they were generally these very Members. There were, indeed, in those days, a number of persons who did not take so violent a part as was commonly taken at the present, but those persons were invariably county Members. He could allude to different names, but it was not necessary to go into that now, of persons generally siding with and favouring one party more than another, but who often gave their decision in a particular case against their own party; but these were not Members for close boroughs, but representing large and open places, such as Nottinghamshire and various other large constituencies. He did not, therefore, see any great loss in the close boroughs. But we were now come to a state of political affairs in which parties were so nearly divided, that one voice more or less was of very great importance to different political parties. It was very different when one party was 400, and the other but 120. Those who numbered 400, could very well afford to lose one or two, and it mattered little if a division raised the minority to 121 or 122, and therefore there was not that heat and passion which the present state of things produced. But it remained to be proved, that the near decision of parties and the considerable degree of dissatisfaction which existed with the decisions of the House were permanent and incurable disorders, which should make them agree with the noble Lord in re-

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moving the decisions entirely from that House. The various evils which existed before the Grenville Act found a cure in it for a long period, without going out of that House. He was not sure that the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Tamworth, might not propose some plan which, after receiving due consideration from that House and all parties, might again for forty or fifty years conciliate respect for the decisions of a tribunal composed of Members of that House. If that were the case, and there was reason to hope it, let them not agree to the resolution of the noble Lord. Let the noble Lord, if he wished, show them how a tribunal might be formed from the Members of that House better than that proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, but let them not condemn every tribunal of the House of Commons until they had an opportunity of examining the right hon. Baronet's plan, and of seeing whether it could be made the foundation of an improved judicature in respect to elections. With respect to the noble Lord's plan, he confessed that like others he was not satisfied with it. In that respect he agreed with his hon. Friend, the Member for Oxford, who, though he approved of the resolution, was not satisfied with the plan—that plan, no doubt, was very ingenious—the Speaker was to take an oath. He did not know how his hon. Friend, the Member for Rochester, would reconcile that part with his feelings about oaths; but the Speaker was to take an oath, and was then competent to name six Members of a Committee. One could imagine that he might very well name six trustworthy and excellent Members of the House of Commons. But considering the division and changes of party in that House, he did think that the Speaker, with the utmost endeavours to act impartially, and to give satisfaction, might find difficulties beyond his power to surmount. But the three Members of class A were to select three names, of which the class B was to take one. The class B was to name three of which class A was to take one. And, then, they had two judges. But he doubted very much whether there would be any power in the whole country competent to settle the remaining point. He had not heard the noble Lord himself meet the difficulty—and it was the whole problem—how the third was to be chosen. They had one judge, indeed, from class
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A, and one from class B, but there was the third, and on that third, in his opinion, depended the political complexion of the whole tribunal. On that he did not hear a satisfactory explanation from the noble Lord. It might be explained now. But he must say, for his own part, that he did not believe a tribunal so constituted would be very free from political bias. But all eyes would be turned on that tribunal, and we should hear one party or the other very soon proclaiming it an unjust, unfair, and even a corrupt tribunal. Let them consider the additional evils which would be thus incurred. There might be an election Committee at present on a particular case, and persons might complain during its sittings of the unfairness of its decisions; but the Members would soon return to their position in the House, and be regarded as equal with the other Members in the honour and integrity of their conduct. Their decision in Committee might be blamed, but their general integrity would remain unimpeached. But with regard to a permanent tribunal, it would be a constant mark for all objections to be aimed at. And if once it acquired the name of partial and unfair, its whole decisions would be vitiated. Every case referred to them would be said beforehand to be about to be unfairly and partially decided. These were his reasons for not being satisfied with the plan of the noble Lord and his hon. Friend, the Member for the University of Oxford, and above all for refusing to agree to the resolutions proposing a sweeping condemnation of the character of the House before any feasible plan for creating a tribunal within the House were examined. He would refer, before he sat down, to one or two other propositions alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. There was a proposition made by his noble Friend, the Member for Lancashire, last year, that a Committee, consisting, he believed, generally of legal Members of the House, should consider the disputed points, and agree upon them; but it seemed to him not very likely that such Members, considering their professional engagements, would be able to attend the Committees. [Lord Stanley: the Committees were not to consist of legal Members.] If such Members did not at all or but little attend, the decisions would then be decisions of a very small number, and would not carry

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the weight they ought to have. It should likewise be considered that this matter could not be exclusively determined by that House; and there might be difficulties in obtaining the assent of the other House of Parliament to a Bill for deciding this point. There was one proposition, however, which had been alluded to, and to which he had always been very favourable—that was, the proposition for having a court of appeal from the decisions of the revising barristers. He did not know why there should not be a court of appeal, constituted by act of parliament, from the revising barristers. Such a court deciding in cases which in fact would not regulate any election—three or four doubtful votes in a constituency of three or four thousand—would be able, without very great disputes or suspicion, to settle the law, and lay down rules of such authority, that they would have very great weight in subsequent decisions of election committees of the House of Commons. He certainly was still of opinion—first, that improvement might be made with respect to the decisions of revising barristers, which at present were exceedingly varying; and secondly, that decisions laid down by such a court as he had mentioned, might be beneficially referred to when questions of a similar nature were discussed, but the ultimate tribunal he would always wish to be a committee of that House. If the House wish to entertain or favour that proposition, he should be very glad to assist in bringing it regularly under its consideration. He did not say that he was entirely adverse to the proposition of his hon. Friend. But when he was asked to take a part in it, he certainly could not be very sanguine in his hopes of success, He thought that several propositions might be made which would have the effect of rendering the law more clear and simple. He thought that the decisions of revising barristers might be improved, that great improvement might be made by an appeal, such as the right hon. Baronet proposed to introduce. It was a subject to which they might most usefully give their time and attention; and certainly he hoped they would employ themselves in the endeavour, before they utterly despaired of the amendment of election tribunals, or consented to a final resolution similar to that of the noble Lord.
Mr. Kellysaid, this was a subject in
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which he had always taken the greatest interest, and on which he had bestowed no little time and attention. The question was undoubtedly of the very highest importance. It was at all times of importance that any institutions connected with the administration of justice should be so constituted as to insure the confidence of the country; and it was now undeniably clear that the election committees of this House had lost the confidence of the people. The election committees of this House had not only lost the confidence of the people, but they had even brought discredit and suspicion, and reproach upon this House itself; and this was a truth which could no longer be disputed. When it was considered that this was proclaimed loudly by the public voice, the only remaining question to be determined was, how that great and grievous evil could be best remedied? Many objections had been made to what was somewhat vaguely if not erroneously, called a transfer of the jurisdiction of this House. Before it was assumed that this House was about to part with any of its privileges, or any of its jurisdictions, he would ask the preliminary question, whether this House had not already parted with all the jurisdiction it ever possessed over the trial of controverted elections? It was scarcely necessary to enter into the history of the establishment of the privileges of the House; but whatever might belong to those privileges, they could not claim the merit of such remote antiquity as others which were possessed by the House. It was well known that for no less than two or three centuries preceding the reign of Elizabeth, the right to amend false returns, and determine all questions in the nature of controverted elections, was vested in the Crown. It was exercised by the Crown either by the Privy Council, the House of Lords, or the Judges, or sometimes by the mere exercise of the power of giving directions to the Sheriff at once to amend the return. Hapily for the Constitution of the country—happily indeed for the liberties of the people, the House of Commons as early as the reign of Queen Mary, attempted to secure to itself the jurisdiction of all returns to Parliament, and in the struggle which terminated in favour of the House of Commons as late as the reign of James 1st the jurisdiction became generally settled and recognised in this House, and in this House, no doubt, it continued unimpaired

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until the year 1770, when the Grenville Act passed. He might be allowed, perhaps, to vindicate his noble Friend from the imputation of having fallen into an historical error when it was supposed the House still permitted the question of controverted elections, to go to the House of Lords. He believed that that had arisen from a typographical error in the report of the debate of 1770, because no doubt when his learned Friend referred to historical documents he would find that the very latest of them when the question was raised as to the exclusive right of this House to determine all returns, was the reign of James 1st in the case of Sir Thomas Godwin who was returned for Buckingham. A dispute arose concerning his return. A claim was made by the Crown, first, by the Lord Chancellor—afterwards by the Judges—ultimately by the House of Lords, to settle the question of disputed returns. The House of Commons fortunately persisted in claiming to itself the right of determining all questions of that nature, and finally prevailed—the pretensions of the Crown were withdrawn, and from that time till 1770 no question was raised as to the exclusive rights of the House. They all knew, as early as the year referred to by the right hon. Member for Tamworth, the 8th of William the 3rd, the exclusive power of the House was recognized by the Legislature. But this was no longer a question. The House having assumed and long exercised this power, it was found for several years before the Grenville Act passed, that this House was altogether incompetent to discharge the duties it had assumed consistently with the administration of justice in the kingdom. It was found, that although then, as now, there were many eminent lawyers in the House, that then, as now, this House was an Assembly of the first Gentlemen in the kingdom—still, it was not possible to administer justice to the satisfaction of the people—it was found, that although counsel were engaged, and witnesses were examined at the bar, the whole took place before empty benches, and it was only when the division took place that Members rushed to their places to vote. In consequence of that state of things the Grenville Act was passed, and he would seriously beg to ask the House, before they raised such strong objections to whatever called for the transfer of their own
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jurisdiction, had they not by that Act of Parliament parted with all their jurisdiction? The motion did not seek to deprive the House of the power of compelling the attendance of witnesses, or of compelling the production of documents, and of punishing delinquency. At present the House had no power of controlling or qualifying the decision of committees from the moment of their appointment—they had no power over them whatever. It appeared to him, therefore, in vain to talk of the jurisdiction of that House when that jurisdiction was already transferred to the committees to whom the election petitions were referred. The important question was this—was an election committee competent to the due administration of justice upon the oaths of those sworn to administer? It was not; and whatever might be the bill of his right hon. Friend, and however superior it might be to any other not yet suggested, even that bill would fail to constitute a tribunal from that House competent to administer the law. In order to determine the question whether an election committee was competent to administer other justice, they must first consider, what were the duties that committee had to discharge. It had to decide upon the most difficult and complicated questions of law. The right hon. Baronet who, with his transcendent abilities, was capable of turning anything into ridicule, had endeavoured by a supposed preamble, to show that, by adopting the motion of his noble Friend, the House would be inflicting something like an insult upon itself. He begged leave to say, with all respect to the House, that it was no more an insult to the House not being a legal tribunal, to say that it was incompetent for the decision of complicated and difficult points of law, than to say it was incompetent to conduct an army, to navigate a ship of war, or to amputate a limb. Another difficuly arose from a total absence of any uniform decisions—there were no authorities of previous committees binding on tribunals of the same nature; that was an evil that called aloud for a remedy; and the consequences were such that no man who considered this question could fail to look at it with deep regret. He would take the great and important question of the opening of the registration on Irish petitions. If that had once been decided, there would have been a government principle for every

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tribunal, afterwards. If that question had been satisfactorily determined, at the first moment it was raised before an election committee, that would have prevented an expense almost incalculable—would have prevented a great number of petitions from Ireland—would have prevented argument after argument, day after day, on various committees, and would have prevented that which was far more discreditable—a series of conflicting decisions, so that at the present moment no counsel could safely advise what the decision of a committee was likely to be. He hoped the House would look to past experience, before they rejected the plan of his noble Friend. He sincerely regretted, that the experience of the last few years, with respect to committees had been such as to create the greatest dissatisfaction, amounting, in fact, to absolute condemnation by the public of those tribunals; and he trusted, that some mode would be adopted by which the confidence of the people would be restored.
Lord Mahonreplied—As to the historical controversy which had arisen between him and his right hon. Friends, (Sir R. Peel and Mr. Wynn) he begged to remind the House that he had never denied, that the privilege of trying controverted elections had been vested in this House, in the reigns of Elizabeth and James the first. His argument was, that their predecessors had not always shown the watchfulness and jealousy for which his right hon. Friend had formerly praised them, and that the privilege had not continued uninterrupted from those times to the present. He believed, on the authority of Mr. Grenville, that at the Restoration amidst the loose ideas of constitutional rights which then prevailed, the Commons had allowed the Lords to take some share in the jurisdiction of election petitions. It is further stated by Mr. Grenville, in his speech of March 7th, 1770, that in 1672 the Lord Chancellor had openly claimed the right of determining controverted elections, upon which the House of Commons were moved to reassert their ancient privilege. His argument was merely against the unbroken succession claimed for the present jurisdiction by its supporters as one ground for retaining it. His right hon. Friend, the Member for Montgomery, had advised him to withdraw his resolution and bring in his bill. But he thought it would be only a waste of the
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time and attention of the House to bring in a bill if its main principle were not previously assented to by the majority of the House. Did his right hon. Friend mean to say, that any perfection of detail could reconcile him to his (Lord Mahon's) principle of jurisdiction? No, his right hon. Friend would say—and have a perfect right to say—"I can find no fault with your clauses—your plan may be well contrived, but I think the jurisdiction should remain with the House, and I will not consent to part with it." He (Lord Mahon) should therefore persist in taking a divison upon the principle embodied in his resolution.
The House divided: Ayes 63; Noes 177: Majority 114.

List of the AYES.

Acheson, Viscount

Knatchbull, right hon. Sir E.

Aglionby, H. A.

Aglionby, Major

Knight, H. G.

Archdall, Mervyn

Lushington, C.

Barron, H. W.

Moreton, hon. A. H.

Bateson, Sir R.

Murray, A.

Bernal, R.

O'Brien, W. S.

Blackstone, W. S.

Palmer, R.

Blewitt, R. J.

Pechell, Capt.

Bradshaw, J.

Pemberton, T.

Brownrigg, S.

Pigot, R.

Chapman, Sir M. L. C.

Plumptre, J. P.

Christopher, R. A.

Powerscourt, Visc.

Cresswell, Cresswell

Redington, T. N.

Dennistoun, J.

Richards, R.

Dundas, C. W. D.

Rushout, G.

Dungannon, Viscount

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Eaton, R. J.

Sinclair, Sir G.

Egerton, W. T.

Smith, R. V.

Fector, J. M.

Stanley, E.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Stormont, Viscount

Forester, hon. G.

Style, Sir C.

Freshfield, J. W.

Talfourd, Mr. Serg.

Gibson, T. M.

Turner, E.

Glynne, Sir S. R.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Vigors, N. A.

Grattan, James

Walsh, Sir J.

Hall, Sir B.

Ward, H. G.

Hawes, B.

Wood, Sir M.

Hutt, W.

Yates, J. A.

Jervis, John

Jones, J.

TELLERS.

Kelly, Fitzroy

Mahon, Viscount

Kinnaird, hon. A. F.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

List of the NOES.

Abercromby, hon. G. R.

Baker, E.

Acland Sir T. D.

Baring, F. T.

Acland, T. D.

Barnard, E. G.

Adare, Viscount

Berkeley, hon. H.

Anson, Colonel

Bewes, T.

Archbold, R.

Blair, J.

Baillie, Colonel

Blake, W. J.

Baines, E.

Blakemore, R.

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Blennerhassett, A.

Howard, P. H.

Bodkin, J. J.

Howard, Sir R.

Bolling, W.

Howick, Viscount

Bridgeman, H.

Hughes, W. B.

Briscoe, J. I.

Hume, J.

Broadley, H.

Humphrey, J.

Broadwood, H.

Hutton, R.

Brocklehurst, J.

Irton, S.

Brotherton, J.

James, Sir W. C.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Jenkins, R.

Buller, Charles

Kemble, H.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Langdale, hon. C.

Burr, Higford

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Burrell, Sir C.

Lefevre, C. S.

Busfeild, W.

Lefroy, rt. hon. T.

Byng, rt. hon. G. S.

Liddell, hon. H. T.

Cayley, E. S.

Lockhart, A. M.

Chalmers, P.

Mackenzie, T.

Childers, J. W.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Clerk, Sir G.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Macleod, R.

Collier, J.

Maher, J.

Conolly, E.

Marshall, W.

Courtenay, P.

Master, T. W. C.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Miles, P. W. S.

Craig, W. G.

Milnes, R. M.

Darby, George

Mordaunt, Sir J.

De Horsey, S. H.

Morpeth, Viscount

Dottin, A. R.

Morris, D.

Douro, Marquess of

Murray, rt. hon. J. A.

Dowdeswell, W.

Noel, W. M.

Duff, James

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Duke, Sir J.

O'Brien, C.

Dunbar, G.

O'Callaghan, hon. C.

Dundas, F.

O'Connell, M. J.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

O'Connell, M.

Ellice, E.

O'Conor, Don

Evans, G.

O'Neill, hon. J. B. R.

Evans, W.

Ossulston, Lord

Farnham, E. B.

Paget, F.

Feilden, W.

Pakington, J. S.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Palmer, G.

Finch, F.

Parker, John

Fort, J.

Parker, M.

Gladstone, W. E.

Parker, R. T.

Gordon, R.

Parrott, J.

Gore, O. J. R.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Gore, Ormsby W.

Perceval, Col.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Philips, M.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Ponsonby, C. F. A. C.

Grant, hon. Colonel

Pringle, A.

Grant, F. W.

Protheroe, E.

Grattan, H.

Pryme, G.

Grimsditch, T.

Rich, H.

Hardinge, rt. hon. Sir H.

Rickford, W.

Hastie, Arch.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Hawkes, T.

Rolleston, L.

Hawkins, J. H.

Round, C. G.

Hayes, Sir E.

Rundle, J.

Hayter, W. G.

Russell, Lord J.

Heathcoat, John

Salwey, Colonel

Hinde, J. H.

Sanford, E. A.

Hindley, C.

Scholefield, J.

Hodgson, R.

Sheppard, T.

Hope, hon. Chas.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Hope, G. W.

Slaney, R. A.

Houstoun, G.

Smyth, Sir G. H.

434

Stanley, E. J.

Verner, Col.

Stanley, Lord

Waddington, H. S.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Wall, C. B.

Steuart, R.

Warburton, H.

Stewart, J.

Whitmore, T. C.

Stock, Dr.

Williams, W.

Strickland, Sir G.

Winnington, T. E.

Strutt, E.

Wood, C.

Stuart, V.

Wood, G. W.

Tancred, H. W.

Wood, T.

Teignmouth, Lord

Wynn, rt. hn. C. W.

Thornley, T.

Young, J.

Thornhill, G.

TELLERS.

Townley, R. G.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Maule, hon. F.

Sir Robert Peel Sir Robert Peel moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the jurisdiction for the trial of controverted elections. He believe he would best discharge his duty by merely moving the introduction of the bill on the present occasion, and the discussion might be taken in a subsequent stage of the measure. With respect to the question put by the hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Bernal), as to how far an oath which was not binding on eleven would be binding on six, he would say, that he proposed that the Committee should assemble under altogether a different influence, and therefore the arguments of the hon. Gentleman did not apply.
Leave given.

FACTORY CHILDREN.
Mr. Fox Maule, in moving for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the employment of children and young persons in factories, said, he thought it would be better at that late hour (past twelve) to defer an explanation of its provisions till the second reading.
Mr. Hindleywished for some brief explanation, if only five minutes—of the objects of the bill. Did the Government mean to alter the hours of the factory children's labour? Did they intend to strengthen the hands of the inspectors and sub-inspectors?
Mr. Fox Maulesaid, the Government were not prepared to alter the provisions of the existing Act as to the hours of labour or the ages of the children. But they did intend to give additional powers to the inspectors and sub-inspectors, believing that such additional powers were necessary to carry the Act into execution. Into a detail of the means by which this object was to be effected, it would be best, perhaps, to enter on the second reading.
Leave given.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Bishop of LONDON, from Cheltenham, against any plan of National Education not based upon the principles of the English Church.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from a parish in Carmarthen, for an equal rate of Postage; from Cripplegate Ward, for a total Repeal of the Corn-laws; from a parish in Norfolk, for the total Repeal of the Corn-laws, Universal Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, and Triennial Parliaments.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Lord Broughamwished to ask a question of the noble Viscount, namely, whether he had any objection to lay before the House certain education returns, that had been laid before the other House of Parliament by

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Lord John Russell? He could not but take that opportunity to express his extreme satisfaction, and he said it most heartily, his extreme satisfaction, at the course taken by the Government, in directing attention forthwith to the great and important subject of national education. This gave him the greatest satisfaction, and he should be most willing to enter into the consideration of any plan, that they should think proper to introduce, with all the disposition possible to support that plan. This was a subject to which he had paid very great attention for the last twenty years of his life, as was well known to the public by the reports of the other House of Parliament, by the reports of the Commission which he had occasion to issue, and by the various motions which he had brought forward on this subject; and it was therefore natural, that he should feel great happiness in seeing the subject taken up by the Government. Provided the object he had in view were attained, he did not care by what channel, or through what discourtesy it was attained. He should give as hearty and as effective a support as he could to the measure, if he could approve of it upon examination, as if it were his own. His noble Friends in the progress of the measure through that House should have all the benefits of his experience and the assistance of his zeal, and he thanked them heartily for having taken the subject into their consideration.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that it was by accident only, that he was not able to lay the returns on the table of the House that day, and he certainly hoped to do so to-morrow. The measure which would be introduced might not, perhaps, be so extensive as the Members of the Government thought it ought to be, but it went as far as they thought practicable. He could only say, that the Government was most anxious, in the progress of any measure, to receive any suggestions that might fall from any noble Lords, and most especially from a person who had devoted so large a portion of his attention to the subject as his noble and learned Friend. Their object at present was, rather to make a beginning than to introduce a complete plan, and, of course, with that object in view, their measure would be of such a nature as would be least objectionable to all parties, and which should meet all their feelings, and
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it would be for the House to consider, either in that or future Sessions, when they had the experience of a beginning, whether it would be proper to extend it.
Lord Broughamsaid, that nothing could be more just than the observations of the noble Marquess. In a subject so open to controversy of a delicate kind, it was necessary at first only to do that which could be safely and easily done. At the same time he must remind his noble Friends, that they were in very great difficulty. If they brought in a plan that was too little, they would disappoint their supporters and the natural friends of the measure, and would lose their support, and, at the same time, excite as great a degree of animosity among their opposers; whereas a more extensive plan, whilst it was more satisfactory, would give them the full support of their friends.

TURNPIKE TRUSTS.
The Marquess of Salisburysaid, he had moved, during the last Session, for certain returns relative to Turnpike Trusts. He wished to know when those returns would be made?
Viscount Melbournesaid, he would inquire about them.
The Marquess of Salisburygave notice, that after the Easter recess he would move for a select committee to investigate the subject.
Lord Broughamsaid, that he hoped the noble Marquess would take some other matters connected with this subject into consideration also. He begged to remind the noble Marquess, that in consequence of late changes there were now scarcely any inns on the roads, and scarcely any roads, and that unless one chose to travel at the rate of three or four hundred miles a day, he could not travel at all. He hoped the House would go into the consideration of this subject with a view to this as well as to the eight millions of money invested in this description of property, and the many widows and orphans that depended upon it. He knew some very cruel cases that had already occurred; he knew one instance in which an income of 200 l. a-year had been cut down to 40 l. He hoped, that some ease would be given, as far as they could without violating any principle, and he thought, that they would not be violating any principle, if they took off the post-horse duty, which would enable the post-masters on certain roads to keep their heads above

353
water a little time longer. If he thought, that his voice could reach to the enormous distance at which the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood, whether that right hon. Gentleman were performing the duties of his office, whether he were enjoying his dinner, or whether he were attending to his duties in the other House of Parliament, he would tell him, that if he did not give up the post-horse duty, it would give him up.