Sitting of 22 August 1839

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. O'Connell, from Kerry, against Renewing the Bank of Ireland Charter.—By Mr. Sheil, from Louth, to the same effect.—By Mr. Ellis, from some place, for Papers relating to the late Riots at Birmingham.—By Mr. P. Thomson, from Stroud, for a Remission of the Post-horse Duty.—By Mr. Hume, from the Rational Religionists of Leeds, against the Imprisonment of George Connor; also from Prisoners in Monmouth Gaol, complaining of their Sentence.

MR. THOMAS.
Mr. Wakleypresented a petition from Henry Cornelius Thomas, surgeon, of Camberwell, complaining of the illegal imprisonment of his brother, a surgeon, of the same place. As the petition referred to a case of personal grievance, and one which called for immediate redress, he trusted the House would indulge him with permission to relate the particulars. The brother of the petitioner, named Frederick Nicholas Somers Thomas, had been convicted it appeared, for stealing furniture from a house in Camberwell-grove. The case turned on a question entirely of identity, and the conviction of Mr. Thomas, depended on very loose and unsatisfactory testimony. None of the goods were traced to the possession of either of the prisoners. On the 13th of December, a Mr. Cook, another surgeon, stated that he had seen a report of a case in the newspapers, which he knew to be totally erroneous, for he was the party that took away the goods, and he was totally unacquainted with Mr. Thomas, whom he had never seen, and who knew nothing of the matter at all. Mr. Cook, and two persons in his employ, Skinner and Watts, removed the goods in September. They went to the house in the open day, and there was no concealment, and no attempt at concealment. Mr. Cook, feeling that he was entitled to take the goods that were assigned to him by his debtor, related these facts to the Home-office, and the Chairman of the Sessions; but, strange as it might appear, after Mr. Cook had sent to the Home-office a state

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ment to the effect that the goods were taken by him and not by Thomas, and that Thomas was altogether innocent of any offence, no redress was afforded. Mr. Thomas was sent to Chelmsford gaol in December last, and this prosecution had had such an effect upon his mind, that he had since been removed from that place, and was now in the felons' wing of Bethlem Hospital. Mr. Cook, with the most praiseworthy benevolence, had made every exertion in the power of man to endeavour to obtain the liberation of his innocent fellow-creature; but every effort had been unavailing. He had often reason to complain of the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, in reference to his politics; but he must say, that so far as the administration of justice was concerned, no minister ever deserved a higher character. He believed that noble Lord had always endeavoured to ascertain the truth of the facts of every case brought under his notice; and in defiance of every slander and every threat, whenever he discovered the truth, he acted manfully and boldly. That was the character which the noble Lord was entitled to as minister of justice, and as Secretary of State for the Home Department, and he was utterly at a loss to know, seeing the way in which the noble Lord always had acted, to comprehend how it was, that the noble Lord's mind continued blind with reference to the facts of this case. He was afraid the noble Lord had been influenced by inferior persons, who, when they had fallen into an error, instead of looking at the merits of the case, and endeavouring to rectify that error, only sought to prove that it was no error, and that though all other persons might be wrong, they themselves must be right. All he wished was a fair, open, and candid investigation. He wished Mr. Thomas and his accuser, to be brought face to face. At the time the trial took place, Mr. Thomas knew nothing whatever of Mr. Cook. He was called on to prove a negative. A party swore that he was seen in the street, and Mr. Thomas could not prove that he was not. What had occurred since? Why, the sweep who swore on the trial that he had been hired by Mr. Thomas to get down the chimney, and open the door, had confessed with tears in his eyes, that he had been bribed, and that he was threatened, unless he gave the evidence he did, that he should be prosecuted for some offence he had committed. He had confessed that he swore
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falsely. Mr. Thomas was incarcerated in a dungeon, he had become insane, and was now lodged in the felons' cell of one of the lunatic asylums of the metropolis. He pledged himself to prove the entire innocence of Mr. Thomas, and if he did not do so, he would never bring a similar case of grievance before the House again. Many of the documents and materials on which the prisoner's innocence rested, were at the Home-office, the petitioner could not get the papers back again, and was not allowed to take copies of them. He was anxious, having stated the case, to found a motion on it for an address to the Crown, praying her Majesty to direct a full and impartial investigation of the allegations contained in the petition, but as the noble Lord was not there, and as twenty-four hours' deliberation might be of service to the unfortunate man, he would postpone the motion. He trusted in the mean time, that the noble Lord would make some intimation to him that an inquiry would take place, and thereby render the motion unnecessary. Let the noble Lord refer the matter to some respectable barrister, who had given no opinion on the case, and there was some hope that that unfortunate individual, who had been now eight months incarcerated, would ultimately obtain his liberty.
Mr. Hawessaid, there were some parts of the hon. Member's statement which required a little elucidation; and as he had taken some interest in the case, he would take the liberty of addressing a few observations to the House. He was bound to state his entire conviction of the complete innocence of Mr. Thomas. He made that statement, not upon his own conviction, but as the result of the professional investigation of two barristers of eminence, who had gratuitously given their services in the case. He would state further, that he had received from the noble Lord every possible attention; he had submitted every document to him, and yet, nevertheless, the noble Lord had somehow come to the conclusion, that he should not be justified in ordering the prisoner to be discharged. He could only account for that decision of the noble Lord by the circumstance, that from the multiplicity of his high and important duties, he was obliged to depend on the information of others; and he believed that proper investigation had not been made into this case by the authorities in the Home Department, because they had alleged that Mr. Cook was a person of bad character

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supposing him to be another person of the same name.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould assure the hon. Gentleman who had presented the petition, that the only cause of the absence of the noble Lord was indisposition. He must admit that the hon. Gentleman had done full justice to the principles which had actuated his noble Friend. No doubt the notice that had been taken of the case in the House would have the attention of the Secretary of State, but whether that would produce a different result, he could not say. Whatever that result might be, he trusted the House would not undertake to review lightly the prerogative of the Crown in cases of the present nature. In conclusion, he begged to inform the hon. Member for Finsbury, that he would take core that what had occurred should be made known to his noble Friend.
Petition to lie on the Table.

OYSTER FISHERIES.
Viscount Palmerstonhaving laid papers on the Table relative to the state of affairs between Mehemet Ali and the Porte, wished to say that a convention had been entered into between England and France, to settle all disputes relative to the fisheries, which had created so much anxiety to both countries. It was important to explain, that the individuals of each country would, have the right of fishing within three miles of low-water mark, the boundary linebetween the two kingdoms; and commissioners had also been appointed for making regulations respecting trollers with the long line, when they should meet on the sea between the two countries, and beyond the three miles line of either coast. The commissioners were to draw up regulations to be approved by each Government, by whom they were respectively to receive the force of law. As the Session was drawing to a close, and it was likely that the commissioners would conclude their labours before Parliament met again, it was desirable to obtain from Parliament a temporary power to give effect to those regulations in the meantime, by an Order in Council approving of such regulations as might be agreed on by the commissioners.

TURKEY AND EGYPT.
Mr. Humebegged to inquire of the noble Lord whether the statements were true, that arrangements had been entered into by the five great European Powers upon a basis calculated to preserve the peace of the East?
Viscount Palmerstonwas glad that the hon. Member had put the question, because it afforded him the opportunity of making a statement which he felt assured would be satisfactory to the House. On the 28th of last month a note was presented to the ministers of the Porte, signed by the representatives of the five Powers, technically called a "collective note," which note said that they (the representatives) were instructed by their several governments to inform the Porte that the five Powers were agreed generally as to the affairs now pending between Turkey and Egypt; and that they were instructed to request the the Porte to suspend any negociations with Mehemet Ali, and not to proceed therein without the knowledge and concurrence of the five Powers. That note was received by the government of the Porte with great thankfulness; therefore, the House might rest assured, that nothing would be done to lead to a disturbance of the peace of the East, unless some new subject should arise, of which at present there was no prospect whatever.

FUNDING OF EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in moving the committal of the Exchequer Bills Funding Bill, felt called upon, in consequence of the question put to him last evening by the hon. Member for Kilkenny, and, irrespective of that question, from a sense of public duty, to state distinctly to the House what had been the result of the steps he had taken with respect to the funding of Exchequer bills. Undoubtedly, in adopting, for the first time, the course which he had adopted, that of inviting public competition, he felt that no common degree of responsibility attached to him. If the matter had failed, he felt that the whole blame would have been cast upon the Government, of which he was the responsible organ; and the failure would have been connected with the having adopted a new course. But he felt so satisfied that the principle upon which he was disposed to act was in itself right, and that it was expedient that the experiment should be tried, with the view of following it out upon any future occasion when the funding of Exchequer bills might be necessary, that he did not hesitate to take upon himself the responsibility of acting upon it. That responsibility would have been materially increased if the experiment had failed, because he had been forewarned by many Members of that House that it could not succeed The

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result, however, showed that his own anticipations were correct; and when he concluded the short statement he had now to offer, he thought the House would agree with him, that the course he had pursued was in every respect the best that could be adopted. He wished, before he proceeded further, before he entered into any explanation, to disclaim on his own part, and on the part of the Government, any credit for the result of the experiment. If the matter rested merely with himself, or with the Government, he should leave the public to draw their own conclusions from the facts before them; hut as it was in vindication of a great and important principle in financial matters, he trusted the House would indulge him whilst he explained to them what the result of the experiment had been. He was anxious to do this, not for the purpose of proving that he was right and his opponents wrong, hut for the sake of showing that the principle which he had adopted was a sound and legitimate one. The House was aware, that the amount of Exchequer bills proposed to be funded was 4,000,000 l. The House was also aware, that of that sum half a million was taken at once by the Bank of England. There then remained 3,500,000 l. to he provided for. The subscriptions for that purpose were opened on the 19th of August, and on that day 694,000 l. were subscribed for. The following day, the 20th, was a very gloomy and rainy day, and it not unfrequently happened that the state of the barometer and the appearances of the weather had a very material influence upon large pecuniary transactions in the city. On that gloomy day the subscriptions looked as gloomy as the weather—they fell with the mercury—the amount subscribed for was only 118,500 l. The 21st of August was more cheering—a fresher spirit inspired the market—the amount subscribed for was 736,000 l. And on this day, not being the close of the subscriptions, because they will still be open to-morrow, whether owing to the fineness of the weather, or to any other atmospheric cause, the amount subscribed for has been 1,672,500 l.; showing a total already subscribed for, under the new principle, of 3,721,000 l. of Exchequer bills, and leaving only a sum of 279,000 l. to be subscribed for. He, therefore, now felt entirely warranted in congratulating the House, that, in adopting a sound and just principle, the success of the experiment had fully justified the risk run by the Government. He might also congratulate
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the House upon the terms on which these subscriptions had been effected. It was not merely the saving of money; but when the House recollected that the transaction was undertaken at a period when the interest of money was very high—when the interest on the part of the Bank of England had been raised, and when money loans in the City had been raised to a most extraordinary, and, he, believed, most unprecedented height—when these circumstances were remembered, he thought the House would agree with him, that there never was an instance of any financial operation which brought to so severe a test the public credit of the country. Notwithstanding the disadvantages to which he had adverted, this funding of 4,000,000 l. of Exchequer bills had been completed—for completed he considered it to be—at a rate of interest which might amount to about 31. 6s. per cent. He would venture to say, that there was scarcely a Gentleman whom he had the honour of addressing who would, a priori, have anticipated so favourable a result. That result was to be considered, not on economical grounds only, but as affording the best possible test of the unimpaired credit of the country. Before he sat down, he wished for a moment to advert to what he had previously remarked upon, the subject of the unfunded debt. He had stated, at an early period, what were his anticipations with respect to the whole of the unfunded debt. Those anticipations had been more than realized. Comparing the year 1836 with the year 1839, he found, that in that period no less a reduction would have been effected in the amount of the unfunded debt of the country than 9,650,000 l. That reduction had been carried into effect almost imperceptibly, and without any inconvenient pressure upon the money-market, because he had the satisfaction of seeing that the price of Consols, though high, stood pretty nearly the same as it did before. He only prayed the House to compare this result with that which would have been inevitable, if he had acted upon the recommendation so strongly pressed upon him by some Members of the House—namely, to raise a money loan for 4,000,000 l., for the purpose of applying the money to buying Exchequer bills. He was quite sure that the public would have been losers if that recommendation had been acted upon, and that the money-market would have been subjected to great inconvenience. In going into committee on the present occasion, his object would be to in

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sert three clauses to carry into execution the three resolutions he had moved on a former evening.
Mr. Humewished to know, what would be the amount added to the permanent debt of the country by this operation; and what was the amount of Exchequer bills, issued for public works, now outstanding? He also washed to know, what amount of Exchequer bills the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to issue, in order to make good the deficiency of revenue in the present year?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, if the hon. Gentleman would put his questions on paper, he should be prepared to state distinctly the information required. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had now with him a statement, which would afford a considerable part of the information the hon. Gentleman sought to obtain; but he should prefer giving his answer in a complete manner. With regard to Exchequer bills issued on account of public works, he believed the amount of them now outstanding was about 400,000 l., but he had not an exact return. As to the issues on account of the Public Works (Ireland) Bill, he had stated, that, at the commencement, the bills amounted to 328,000 l.; but that amount, to the 5th of April, was reduced to 195,000 l.; and he believed it had been further reduced since.
House in Committee; clauses added.
House resumed. The report to be received to-morrow.

DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH'S PENSION.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved that the Duke of Marlborough's Pension Bill be read a third time.
Mr. Wakley Mr. Wakley moved that the House be counted.
House counted out.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Bankrupts (Ireland); Administration of Justice (Parts of Counties); Exchequer Dills; Consolidated Fund.—Read a third time:—Metropolis Improvement.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Bute, from Ayr, for Parochial Education; also for Church Extension; from several places, against Intruding Ministers into Parishes against the Wishes of the People.—By Lord Brougham, from Prisoners in Monmouth Goal, against the Injustice of their Sentence.

COLONEL BRADLEY.
Lord Broughampresented a petition from Mr. Thomas Bradley, late lieu tenant-colonel of his late Majesty's 2nd West-India regiment of foot, in which the petitioner went over the whole of the dispute which had occurred between him and Sir George Arthur, and which has been before the public repeatedly for several years past. The petitioner complained of the injustice under which he had so long suffered, and concluded his statement in these words:—
"It must be evident to your Lordships, from your Lordships from the above statement, that your petitioner has been deprived of his commission with on trial, and without having been guilty of any military offence whatever: and your petitioner, therefore, humbly prays that he may not be deprived of the ordinary privilege pf a British subject, but that your Lordships Will at least enquire for what reason he has been stripped of his commission, after twenty years of arduous service in the West-Indies and America."
After adverting to the facts of the case, the noble and learned Lord said he was greatly astonished that any difficulty should stand in the way of justice being done to this injured gentleman by restoring him to his rank in the service. Even if Mr. Bradley had acted erroneously (which, in his opinion, was not the case), he bad, assuredly, suffered quite enough. He had suffered a long imprisonment in a most unwholesome climate; he had been ousted from the service; he had been deprived of his commission, and had suffered a pecuniary loss of 1,900 l.. It was a case of very great hardship, and he hoped, that his noble Friend, at the head of the Executive Government, would take it into serious consideration.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that as a commission of which he was a member, was now sitting, and had been sitting for a considerable time, before which, cases of this nature might be heard, he did not wish to offer any opinion on this petition. The noble and learned Lord had not stated that

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her Majesty's permission had been asked, and had been given, for the consideration of this subject. He, therefore, recommended to the noble and learned Lord to withdraw the petition to give the noble Viscount an opportunity of judging whether it would be proper to advise her Majesty, that she should assent to its being considered.
Viscount Melbournesaid, it was the practice of the other House to refer to the Crown in cases of this nature, but he was not aware, that such was the practice of their Lordships' House.
Lord Broughamsaid, they might receive a petition for inquiry into malversation, military or civil, if it did not involve an application for money.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he felt no hostility towards the petitioner; but they ought to take care that the rules which were usually followed with reference to questions of this nature should be properly adhered to. He was anxious that the circumstances should be inquired into in the most indulgent manner.
Lord Brougham,after what had been said by the noble Duke, would withdraw the petition. By doing so, he distinctly marked his opinion, that to petition Parliament on such a subject was the very last step that ought to be taken.
Petition withdrawn.

CHARTIST PRISONERS.
Lord Broughamhad also a petition to present from Henry Vincent, W. Edwards, and J. Dickinson, complaining of the hardships under which they still suffered, during their confinement. They stated, that they were only allowed the gaol diet—2 qts. of gruel, 1½lb. of bread, and 11b. of potatoes daily, and they called on their Lordships to relieve them from this hardship, by which they were deprived of all animal food whatever. Mr. Baron Alderson, they said, who tried them, expressed it as his opinion, by a letter to the Home Secretary, that they should not be subjected to any unusual deprivations; and yet they were denied the use of pen, ink, and paper. They further alleged, that their object in attending the meeting (for their speeches at which they were convicted) was the discussion of the People's Charter; and that they were perfectly justified in their conduct by the best constitutional authorities, both ancient and modern. He (Lord Brougham) thought they were right in this opinion, for it was sanctioned not only by the best writers on the constitu
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tion, but by a noble Friend of his in another House, who, not in his place certainly, but by an address to what he presumed was a constitutional meeting, maintained the right of the subject to meet for the free discussion of political questions. This view was confirmed by another high constitutional authority—his noble Friend, the President of the Council, who, though not now in his place (for he had gone abroad) had declared, in that place, in the most strenuous manner, and with a vehemence of language which he never heard exceeded—I seldom equalled—that it was the right and duty of the people to attend public meetings, in order to complain of their grievances; and then his noble Friend broached an opinion—from which he (Lord Brougham) differed, by not going so far—that numbers were no test of the illegality of a meeting. He preferred abiding by the sounder doctrine of the Secretary of State, I who watched over the police and peace of the kingdom, when his noble Friend said, that all lawful meetings were legal; or, in other words, that it was the right of the people to attend meetings which did not break the peace, or put the peace in jeopardy. The petitioners, backed by such authorities, naturally expressed their surprise, that the attempt to violate this right, ("one of the most important," in the language of the President of the Council, I "which the subject enjoyed") should be made by her Majesty's present advisers, who were the active promoters of, and principal actors in the public meetings of 1831 and 1832, of a far more alarming character than those for their attendance at which they had been confined. They could not allude to him, for he had pronounced the meeting of 150,000 men at Birmingham illegal. He did not know I whether his noble Friend attended any such meetings. [Lord Melbourne: No.] He supposed, then, that such practices were confined to the Members of the other House.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that he understood these parties were subjected to the same regulations as all other prisoners in the same ward. Whether those regulations were proper or not was a distinct question; but he did not see any reason why there should be any extraordinary interposition in favour of these petitioners.
Petition laid on the Table.

BOLTON POLICE.
Viscount Duncannon Viscount Duncannon moved the Order of the Day for a Com-

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mittee on the Bolton Police Bill. If their Lordships consented to go into Committee, he would then move a clause empowering the Commissioners to extend the advantages of the police force to be established by the bill, to that part of Little Bolton which was without the borough. With regard to the conduct of the mayor, which had been commented on by the noble and learned Lord opposite, an inquiry had been instituted by the Home Secretary-He had read every communication which had been received respecting the occurrences at Bolton; he had obtained, besides, all the information he could upon the subject; and he must say, that there did not appear to him anything in the conduct of the mayor which could not be approved of by the Government.
Lord Lyndhurstbegged to observe, that that part of the force at present in Bolton which was appointed by the court-leet consisted of thirteen persons, and that there was besides a force of 40 consstables. How they were chosen he was not aware, but they were regularly sworn in, and had existed for a period of thirty or forty years; so that, at this moment, they had this body of forty persons, in addition to those elected by the court-leet, and also the body of special constables which had been called into action by the mayor. What, then, did the noble Viscount propose to effect by this bill? It would establish a rate of 8d. in the pound; and supposing the noble Viscount to introduce the clause to which he referred, so as to render the whole of the rate-payers of that part of Little Bolton without the borough liable to that rate, the sum levied would not exceed 3,000 l. After deducting the necessary expenses provided by the bill, there would be left for the police the sum of 1,560 l. Now, if they were to be paid at the rate of 1l. per week, that sum would only raise a force of about thirty-two men, so that they were, in fact, abolishing a police force of a considerably greater number, as he had already shown, for the purpose of supplying a police force of thirty-two persons. What he had stated the other evening, with respect to the conduct of the mayor, had been communicated to him by letters from Bolton, the accuracy of which he had no reason to doubt, but as that subject was now under inquiry, he would say nothing more upon the subject. The question between them was this:—this Act would put an end to the operation of an existing police, and
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substitute a force which he considered inadequate to preserve the peace of so populous a town as Bolton in case of riot. He made no opposition to the motion of the noble Viscount; but upon him and the Government must rest the responsibility.
Their Lordships went into Committee.
Some amendments were made, and the House resumed.
Bill to be reported.