Sitting of 5 August 1839

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second tine:—Rogue Money (Scotland).—Read a third time:—Constabulary Force (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By Mr. Grimsditch, from Stoke, Staffordshire, for the better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Sir Eardley Wilmot, from Nun Eaton, for Amendment in the Poor-Laws.

NEW SOUTH WALES.
Mr. Labouchere Mr. Labouchere moved the third reading of the New South Wales Bill.
Mr. C. Bullerconcurred with the Government in thinking that it was expedient and prudent to renew this bill from year to year, but he thought it would be still wiser and much more expedient to give the people some chance, at no very distant period, of exercising that self-control in the affairs of the Government without which civilization could never be efficiently advanced, nor any thing like rational freedom established. He felt assured, that the least prospect of this control could not fail to occasion the greatest satisfaction among all classes of the colonists. The Act now proposed to be renewed, was a measure which originally had been introduced in 1827. It was no matter of surprise that the circumstance of the Executive Council not being of popular choice should occasion loud and angry complaints, and should give rise to feelings of more bitterness in the Australian colonies than were to be found in any other possessions of the British Crown. The revenue of these colonies was produced from the largest amount of direct taxation with which any country on the face of the earth had ever been burthened. It was thought that the English people enjoyed exclusively the privilege of being the heaviest-taxed people who had ever pos-
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sessed an independent and regular Government. The population of New South Wales was about 100,000 souls—that of Van Dieman's Land about 50,000. Concerning the revenue derived from the sale of land, it would not be correct fir him to introduce that species of property into the calculation which he purposed submitting to the House; for it was a species of fixed and permanent property that ought to be applied to objects of a permanent nature, such as the formation of roads or other works of that description, as well as fur the encouragement of immigration; but that with which he now proposed to deal more particularly was the ordinary revenue and the ordinary expenditure of the; colony. In tile year 1837 the ordinary revenue, strictly exclusive of the sale of land, amounted in New South Wales to 226,900 l., and in Van Dieman's Land to 127,666 l. The total revenue disbursed by the Government of New South Wales was little less than half a million of motley, while the population of our Australian colonies was something between 150,000 and 200,000. Now, in this application of their own ordinary revenue the people had no voice whatever. There was usually an expenditure of 326,000 l. for the use of a population, of whom only 45,000 were not convicts. Thus, their expenditure was 2l. 3s. a-head, while the expenditure in England only amounted to 2l. a-bead; yet the Australian colonists had not the interest of any debt to discharge, whereas half the expenditure of the mother country went not for the maintenance of any efficient force, but for paying the interest of a debt incurred long since. He knew he might be told that the Government of a colony frequently found itself under the necessity of disbursing a much larger amount of revenue in public works than was at all necessary in an old civilized country. Looking at the expenditure of New South Wales, he ventured to say, that it was the largest and most lavish expenditure in the known world. In the year 1839, the ordinary revenue of New South Wales was 226,000 l.; and this for a population of 100,000, while the actual expenditure was 346,000, the difference being made up from that which ought never to enter into ordinary expenditure—namely, the funds derived from the sale of lands. Thus the expenses of New South Wales imposed an average payment of 3l, 10 s.

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per head. Now, if the interest of the national debt were not taken into consideration, it would be found that the actual expense of this country did not exceed one-third for each individual of that expended in New South Wales. He certainly did not lose sight of the great expenditure necessary in that colony for a church establishment and the formation of roads, bridges, streets, &c. Deducting 70,000 l. expended on objects not required in England, it left a balance of 276,000 l., the whole expenditure being 346,000 l. Now, in comparing the expenditure of the colony with that of the mother country, hon. Members should recollect that the Australians had nothing analogous to our establishments of the army, navy, and ordnance, and yet these three sources of expense swallowed up 11,000,000 l. annually of our ordinary revenue. The inference from all these statements was, that however great the extravagance of our Government might be in England, it was three times as great in Australia. It was curious to observe with what cool indifference any addition was made to the expenditure of such a colony. Here, if there were a proposition for adding 5,000 men to the army, it became a matter of very grave and patient investigation; but 80,000 l. additional were laid upon the Australians with as little ceremony as if money were not an object of difficult and rare acquisition. Neither was there the least scrupulousness practised in reference to the source whence the means of this additional expenditure was to be obtained. The Government, unhesitatingly, broke its pledge on the subject of immigration. Let the House only look at the difference between our Australian and our North American colonies. In the latter, the population was ten times as great as in Australia, and yet their direct taxation did not exceed the direct taxation of New South Wales. There existed in Australia a certain kind of slavery, but it was the richest slave colony under the British Crown, not even excepting Jamaica. The population of Jamaica was 500,000, while the expenditure was only 300,000 l., being one-third part of the expenditure of New South Wales; yet there existed no sort of popular control in the latter colony. The conclusion to which he wished to lead the House was, that the people of Australia ought to have some control over the administration of their own govern-
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ment. If they were not indulged to this extent at least, it would be quite unreasonable to suppose that any people would endure such treatment patiently. He had not forgotten that many people were of opinion that the Australians were wholly unfit for self-government. That was certainly not the opinion of persons best acquainted with their habits and circumstances. They were faulty in many respects, but one obvious mode of improving them would be to grant them some small control in the management of their own affairs. He was not singular in holding this opinion, nay, he was supported by the judgment of the highest authorities, not only in the colony, but in Europe. The hon. Member referred to the testimony of Mr. M'Arthur, a gentleman of the largest landed property in the colony, Sir Edward Parry, Sir Robert Mitchell, and Sir Richard Bourke. He had himself presented a petition last year signed by 9,000 persons, including all the magistrates. Mr. Henry Bulwer, when he had a seat in that House, presented a similar petition, praying for popular control over the Government, and being very numerously and respectably signed. At present there was a similar petition coming from Van Dieman's Land, signed by 1,942 persons, amongst whom were 125 magistrates out of 198. He felt, then, that the House would abandon its duty if it delayed much longer to do that which all parties earnestly demanded. He did not doubt the wish to grant the inhabitants of New South Wales free institutions, but it was the duty of the Imperial Government to take measures for fitting them to receive the advantages of being represented. Moreover, it was the duty of Parliament not to legislate without reference to the feelings of the people. He should not then enter into the general question of the wisdom or expediency of possessing penal colonies, but of this he entertained no doubt, that the practice of transporting the refuse of our population to New South Wales ought long since to have been discontinued. In a colony yielding so much valuable produce for export—looking at the immense tracts of fine land which it contained—he had no hesitation in saying that a wise Government would never have converted that into an abode for criminals which nature had so admirably adapted for the residence of industrious and civilized men. He would impress upon the

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Government the necessity of encouraging the free emigration to our Australian colonies of persons willing to leave this country. Five years of well-conducted emigration would place these colonies in the condition of being fully capable of taking care of themselves, and of enjoying those free institutions without which Englishmen, no matter in what part of the globe, or under what circumstances, would never be content.
Mr. Labouchereconceived that no practical result could follow from the discussion in which his hon. Friend had embarked, even if the House were to come to an opinion upon the several topics it involved. Although there was little of inaccuracy in the statements which his hon. Friend had made, yet they presented so fallacious a picture to the House from the circumstance of his having omitted to advert to other matters intimately connected with the subject, that he (Mr. Labouchere) felt it necessary in some degree to supply the deficiency. His hon. Friend had begun by stating, that he hoped the day was not very distant when he should see institutions of a liberal character, and more consonant to the feelings of Englishmen, substituted for the present system of government in New South Wales. He could assure his hon. Friend, that he was far from differing from the general principles he had expressed upon that subject. He agreed with him, that whatever might be the difficulty of introducing free institutions into a colony, there was much disadvantage in requiring Englishmen to live under a government in the conduct and control of which they had no share. He had always entertained the greatest doubt upon the propriety of making those colonies convict colonies—of spreading a seed so bad upon a soil where the produce was sure to be so great. He had always regarded that policy as open to the greatest objection, and he was glad to be able to state, that the Government had taken decided steps to put a stop to the system. His noble Friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who, he regretted to say, was unable to attend the House that day, had, in conjunction with the Colonial-office, taken steps to put a stop to the exportation of convicts to New South Wales. This year only 2,000, being but half the usual number, would be sent to that colony, the greater portion of whom would not be long
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allowed to remain there, but be taken to Norfolk Island, and placed under control a recommended by the committee to which his hon. Friend had referred. His hon. Friend would see, therefore, that the Government were not open to the charge of neglect upon that part of the subject. Directions had also been sent out to New South Wales at once to put an end to the assignment of convicts for domestic service, and in as short a time as possible to discontinue the assignment of labourers, without bringing immediate ruin or injury upon those accustomed to that supply. Such being the case with respect to the exportation of convicts, it was the more incumbent on the Government, by every practical means, to encourage the exportation of free labour, to supply the deficiency, and enable those colonies to continue in that course—of prosperity he would call it, in spite of the speech of his hon. Friend—in which they had hitherto been progressing, but which they could no longer expect them to continue in unless by the immigration into the colony of free labour. Neither could he allow, that upon this part of time subject the Government had abandoned its duty. He begged attention to the single fact—that in 1828 10,000 emigrants had gone from this country alone to New South Wales, which must evidently produce not only a considerable effect upon the supply of labour, but also in improving the general mass of the inhabitants, by the infusion of persons who might fairly be said to be persons, generally speaking, of industrious and moral habits. So deeply impressed were the Government with the advantage of it, that they had resolved to continue a system of emigration upon the same scale, and there would emigrate this year also, under the auspices of the Government, 10,000 persons, but at the expense of the colony. If the colony were to derive important benefits, even in a financial point of view, from that circumstance, it was only just that it should bear the expense. His hon. Friend had accused the Government with having invaded the land fund, and applied it to other purposes than that for which it was intended. He believed he had gone so far as to charge the Government with a breach of faith in having violated their pledge—at what time made, however, his hon. Friend did not say. He (Mr. Labouchere) denied that the Government had pledged itself,

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or that it would be judicious to pledge itself, come what might, to apply those funds derived from a source which of course would be always available, wholly or in part, to the purposes of emigration. It was evident, from the address of Sir George Gipps, that at this moment the finances of New South Wales were not in a satisfactory condition; that there was an excess of expenditure over income, which, if allowed to continue, could not but involve the colony in difficulty and distress. At the same time his hon. Friend, in commenting upon that fact, should have adverted to those temporary circumstances which, to a considerable extent, had given it existence. Last year had been a year of severe drought, so severe, that Sir George Gipps had stated, that instead of there having been a demand for labour, labourers were actually standing idle in the streets of Sydney, who willing to be hired, could not find employment. This calamity had moreover in another way a direct effect upon the revenue, the prices of all contracts were raised immensely, upon which the House was aware how much expenditure depended. All provisions had likewise risen in price, and added greatly to the difficulties of the year. At the same time, Sir G. Gipps, in laying this statement before the Council of New South Wales, ended by saying, that he, for one, was of opinion, that by meeting those difficulties openly and boldly, and by a strict and unflinching system of economy in every part of the service where economy could be applied, those difficulties would be surmounted, and those colonies would continue prosperous. That was an expectation in which he heartily shared. He considered it most fortunate for those colonies that they had presiding over their councils at this moment a person of the courage, ability, and integrity of that gallant Officer, by whom, with the assistance of the council, he had no doubt that those difficulties would shortly be removed, and those colonies continue to be a source of strength to to the empire. The bill before the House merely provided for the continuance of the temporary government of New South Wales. The whole subject must necessarily come before them next year. He did not think it would be wise or prudent now to hold out expectations which it might not, upon deliberation, be in the power of Government to fulfil; but he
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fully agreed with his right hon. Friend, that it was desirable as soon as possible to give a more free form of government to those colonies, the state of which next year would, he trusted, enable them to submit to the House some measure upon the subject.
Mr. Wardsaid, that since he had given notice of his motion upon this subject, he had seen a Treasury minute, which, instead of appropriating the proceeds of land sales to emigration, distinctly declared, that until the difference which existed between the ordinary revenue and the expenditure in New South Wales should be completely covered by the colonial resources, no further portion of those proceeds should be employed in emigration. The right hon. Gentleman had not pushed that part of the question to its full extent. He stated that 10,000 emigrants had gone out last year to New South Wales, and that a similar number would go out this year under the auspices of the Government. But how was that to be reconciled with this Treasury minute, and the different appropriation of the land-fund for which the right hon. Gentleman claimed credit. He said it was to be done out of the colonial resources. But he had shown, that in those resources there was a great deficit. That being the case he (Mr. Ward) did not see how it was to be done without the interposition of Parliament. He implored his right hon. Friend not to encourage a spirit of jobbing and lavish expenditure in the colony, by throwing the whole proceeds of land-sales into a revenue over which they had no control. If he did so, he might depend upon seeing, as the result, the employment of a number of unnecessary officers, the building of new streets, and a lavish outlay for such purposes, which, while it might create a temporary popularity, would have the effect of retarding the permanent government of the colony itself. He contended, that it was unfair to deduct from the amount of land-sales the expences of the system of colonial police. The necessity for that force entirely arose from our sending so many convicts into New South Wales; and he did not think the colony should be charged with the expense of its maintenance.
Viscount Howickvindicated the application of the land-fund to the support of the police force. No doubt, the necessity for that force arose, as had been observed by

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the hon. Member for Sheffield, from the number of convicts sent into New South Wales; but as convict labour had been mainly the cause of its prosperity, the colony could not object to defray the expense of those establishments which were absolutely necessary to maintain public tranquillity.
Bill read a third time, and passed.

METROPOLIS POLICE COURTS.
On the motion of Mr. F. Maule, the report of the Metropolis Police Courts Bill was brought up.
On the 54th Clause,
Mr. Hodges Mr. Hodges moved, that so much of it as limits appeals to certain cases only be struck out. He wished appeals to be general.
Mr. F. Mauledefended the clause, as in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee.
Report, with amendments, agreed to.

SUPPLY.
On the Order of the Day for the House going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Fieldenrose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, and he had been induced to take this course, in consequence of the determination which this House had thought it right, in its wisdom, to come to, not to allow any further extension of the suffrage, and those other reforms prayed for in the National Petition. One of two things, it appeared to him, it was imperative on the House to do—either to give the labouring people a voice in this House, which they now had not; or to redress their sufferings, and to relieve them from that poverty of which they had so long and so justly complained. Be had had many opportunities, since he became a Member of that House, of inquiring into the condition of the labouring people, and had diligently attended to the investigation of their circumstances in the Committees on which he had sat. That condition, as it had been proved over and over again in his presence, it was his duty to make known to the House. He spent two years in inquiring into the state of the unfortunate handloom weavers, and he had made statements to the House previous to this inquiry, that a very great proportion of these honest and industrious citizens had not more than 2½d. per head per day to provide themselves and their families with food, clothing, soap, candles, and other
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necessaries. In the Committee to inquire into their condition, it was proved, and the Committee reported to this House, that their poverty surpassed what he had described, that their means of living was less, and that they had borne up under these sufferings for a number of years with a degree of patience unexampled. The state of the labourers on the land—the most important and the most numerous class of workmen—was proved before the Poor-law Committee, on which he sat in the latter end of 1837, and up to July, 1838, to be little, if at all, better than the state of the destitute handloom weavers. In that Committee a minute investigation was made into the condition and income of the labourers of Westoning, in the Ampthill union, in Bedfordshire, in which union the labourers, in consequence of having straw-platting, from which their wives and children derived employment, and added to the income of the family as a whole, were not so poor as they necessarily must be in many rural districts where employment for the wives and children could not be obtained. But, possessing those advantages over some of the labourers on the land, he would state to the House what the income of six families, numbering forty-four persons, in the parish of Westoning, was proved to be; and from a stanch supporter of the New Poor-law, Mr. Pease, late high sheriff of the county of Bedford. He spoke to the excellent character of those six labourers, and he collected every source of income which they possessed; first, the weekly wages that they had, the benefits which they derived from the harvest months, the benefits that some derived from the cultivation of small plots of garden ground, and the income from the earning of their wives and children; and after having made the most favourable statement he could as to the income of the forty-four persons, he proved that their united incomes only amounted to 4l. 7s. 0¼d. per head per annum—that is, 1s. 8d. per head per week, or less, on the average, than 3d. per head per day, for food, clothing, soap, candles, and other necessaries, for the year 1837. The lowest income per head for his family of these honest labourers was 2d. per day for each person. The names of these labourers and their incomes would be found stated in Appendix No. 2, in the reports 27, 38, and 39 of the Poor-law Committee ordered by this House to be printed, June

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These labourers were men of good repute, receiving no parish relief whatever; the number of weeks they were employed during the year averaged 256, the lowest number of weeks' employment for any one of them was 40; the highest number that any one had was 45; the average number of weeks' employment for each was 42 weeks and 4 days; and the average wages which they received for their own labour exceeded 10 s. per week. And yet they were in the lamentable condition that he had described. It was impossible for him to understand how the best paid of the labourers could honestly support themselves and their families with a sufficiency of food and clothing, and other necessaries, at the prices they had to pay for these things, taxed as they now are. But if the man with 4d. per bead (and there is only one of the six that had so much) could not maintain his family as a labourer ought to be maintained, what was to become of poor Richard Pedder, an honest industrious labourer with only 2d. per head per day for each member of his family? What was he required to do to prove that he was destitute? Why, he must submit to the workhouse test, be separated from his wife and his children, or otherwise he must beg, or steal, or starve. Now, was that dealing fairly or honestly with this labouring man? Could any man lay his hand upon his heart and say that it was just? Nay, must not every man say, that it was wicked to make this honest labourer, out of the small earnings of himself and family, pay one-half of those scanty means in taxes upon the necessaries of life which he ought to consume? Having stated to the House the condition of these two classes of labouring people, he felt it incumbent on him to state what is the condition of those employed in the factories. It was well known, and had been often urged on that House, that when they are in full employment their labour is excessive, and as they have long prayed this House to lessen, but without effect. But these unfortunate individuals are now suffering from only having partial employment. In the cotton manufacture, which employs more hands than all the other branches of manufactures put together, and with which he was more particularly acquainted, the consumption of cotton for this year proved to demonstration, that they had not had an average of four days' work per week.
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Some are thrown out of employment altogether, and are suffering the most severe distress; a much larger number are suffering from partial employment, and a very few are in a state to provide themselves with a sufficiency of the commonest necessaries of life. He had now shown as briefly as he could the state of the labourers on the land, at the handloom, and in the factories. With regard to the first, he had taken his example from a part of the country where the nominal amount of wages is high, and where the families of labourers have a peculiarly advantageous means of employment. What must it be where the wages are only 7s. a-week, as had been affirmed by many hon. Gentlemen of that House, and where the wives and children have scarcely any employment at all? As to those at the hand-loom, they may be outcasts of society. The fact of their distress has been made known to the House by Committees of the House, and by commissioners. It had had petitions from all parts, praying the House to do something to relieve them from their poverty; the House had refused to allow a bill to be introduced having that object, and all that it had done for them notwithstanding their destitute condition, had been to pass the New Poor-law, and to throw them helpless on their own resources. Those in the factories had received the same want of attention to their repeated petitions, and what the House had done for them has been under the operation of the New Poor-law, to swell the number of applicants for that employment by causing what was called the surplus population on the land to migrate to the manufacturing districts in the north; to bring down the wages of that class, to the same level as those who are suffering on the land and at the hand-loom, which migration had been attended by the most deplorable suffering on the part of many, and the termination of the existence of not a few. For this state of things there must be a cause, and that cause, notwithstanding all he had heard said in that House to the contrary, was taxation on every article of consumption which the people are called upon to pay. There was the corn tax, malt tax, soap tax, hop tax, candle tax, coal tax, sugar tax, tea tax, coffee tax, butter tax, cheese tax, fruit tax, taxes upon raw materials for manufactures, amounting together to upwards of 17,000,000 l. annually. These

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press peculiarly upon the labouring classes and deprive those who endeavour to employ them, of the means of doing so to the extent which they would do if these taxes did not exist. There are the other taxes amounting in the whole to more than 35,000,000 l., which have the same tendency to prevent employment, and to lessen consumption, although some of them being taxes upon luxuries and direct taxes, may not perhaps operate to the same extent injuriously to the poor. Three great mistakes had been made by that House since the return of peace. It passed the corn-law to make food dear, and it repealed the property tax to exempt the rich from paying their fair proportion, in about one year from the close of the war; and in 1819, it passed the bill which bears the name of the right bon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, to double the value of money, by which it doubled the pressure of taxation, unjust as the mode of levying it then was, and still is. In proof of this, he had looked at what was the average price of the quarter of wheat for 19 years previous to 1819, and which he found to be 86 s. 1d. per quarter, and the average price of wheat for the 19 years that have elapsed since 1819 has been 56 s. 10 d. per quarter, and this showed that every man engaged in raising wheat, to raise 3l. for taxes in the first 19 years, had to give five bushels and a half of wheat, whereas, in the latter 19 years, he has had to give eight bushels and a half of wheat to raise the same sum. But the evil is still going on; for if he took ten years preceding 1819, he found the quarter of wheat was 90 s. 10½d. a-quarter, and the average price for ten years ending 31st January, 1839, was only 56 s. 3½d. per quarter. In the first of these ten years, 3l. would buy nearly nine bushels of wheat. This showed that the taxes were nearly doubled, as applied to the produce of the land. With regard to those engaged in manufactures, they have to give the labour of manufacturing four things to raise the same amount of taxes which the labour of manufacturing one thing would command at the close of the war; that is, in the cotton manufacturing branches he knew, that they had 75 per cent. less now for manufacturing than they had during, and at the close, of the war. The 53,000,000 l. of taxes, raised last year would purchase as much wheat as 90,000,000 l. of taxes would have pur-
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chased at the average price of wheat for ten years preceding 1819: and in the cotton manufactures four times the quantity may be purchased with the same amount of money that it would purchase in 1815. It is this increase of taxation that caused the increase of distress. It takes away from those who employ labour, the means of doing so to the extent they would do if they had not these taxes to pay, and it causes them to reduce the labour of the people, and to prevent their consumption of the necessaries of life which they create. It could not be denied by any one that this two-fold operation must be exceedingly injurious to both the employers and the employed. He might he told that the taxes have not this effect, for that they are expended again by those who receive them, in affording employment and the means of living to all engaged in productive industry; but this he denied. Look at the amount that had since the war gone out of this country in foreign loans. Mr. Marshall, in his evidence before the hand-loom committee stated it to exceed 100,000,000 l., and this sum had been augmented since. This had gone to raise up manufacturing competitors in other countries, and thus had deprived us of the power of giving to the people the same employment that we otherwise could have done, and haddeprived us of the means of obtaining that profit which we should have obtained if these loans had not been contracted; and we are now arrived at that state as regards our manufacturing industry, that, notwithstanding all the ingenuity that had been brought into practice, and all the improvements in machinery, we cannot profitably employ our manufacturing people. Another mode of spending the taxes is on luxuries imported from foreign countries in return for our exports, and used here by the rich only, because the great body of the people cannot command these things. This is no better than giving the labour of our people for that which is not bread, and their strength for nought. The labourer being circumstanced as he had described, has a right to complain. Others have described their condition, and shown that they are cruelly treated. Dr. Price, in his day, in his tables on reversionary payments, says,
"The nominal price of day-labour is at present no more than four times, or at most, five times, what it was in 1514; but the price of corn is seven times, and of flesh and raiment

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about fifteen times higher. So far, therefore, has the price of labour been from advancing in proportion to the increase in the expences of living, that it does not appear that it bears now half the proportion to those expences that it did bear formerly."
The labourer he believed to be worse off now than he was when Dr. Price wrote; and, in addition to the sufferings from in. adequate wages, the Legislature had robbed him of his charter, and thrown great difficulties in the way of his obtaining relief. He, therefore, does, and will, continue to complain of his social condition, however the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, may dislike it; and every well-wisher to society ought, he thought, to urge him to repeat his complaints again and again by petitions to this House until he obtained redress. It was to get an improvement of their social condition that the working people joined in the cry for reform in 1831–2. It was because the reformed Parliament has not reduced the taxes, nor improved the social condition of the people, that they now sought for a further reform. This reform, or an improvement of the social condition of the people, the House must concede, or its doom and the fate of the country is sealed. A change would be made, peaceably or violently, and all the additional force this House was voting would not prevent it, but might accelerate the end. This country was in the condition that the Roman empire was in just before its fall, and that France was in just before the breaking out of the first revolution, as described by Mr. Gibbon and Mr. Arthur Young. Mr. Gibbon, in describing the cause of the fall of Rome, says—
"The horrid practice of murdering their new-born infants was become every day more frequent in the provinces. It was the effect of distress, and the distress was principally occasioned by the intolerable burden of taxes, and by the vexatious, as well as cruel, persecutions of the officers of the revenue against the insolvent debtors. The less opulent or less industrious part of mankind, instead of rejoicing at an increase of family, deemed it an act of paternal tenderness to release the children from the impending miseries of a life which they themselves were unable to support."
Mr. Arthur Young,who was a resident in France at the outbreak of the revolution, which shook that country to atoms, and scattered its nobility and gentry to
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wander over the earth—he who saw it, and examined its cause, wrote these words:—
"It is impossible to justify the excesses of the people on their taking up arms; they were certainly guilty of cruelties; it is idle to deny the facts, for they have been proved too clearly to admit of doubt. But is it really the people to whom we are to impute the whole—or to their oppressors, who had kept them so long in a state of bondage? He who chooses to be served by slaves, and by ill-treated slaves, must know that he holds both his property and his life by a tenure far different from those who prefer the service of well-treated freemen; and he who dines to the music of groaning sufferers, must not, in the moment of insurrection, complain that his daughters are ravished and then destroyed, and that his sons' throats are cut. When such evils happen, they surely are more imputable to the tyranny than to the cruelty of the servant. The analogy holds with the French peasants. The murder of a seigneur (a lord), or a country seat in flames, is recorded in every newspaper; the rank of the person who suffers attracts notice; but where do we find the registers of the seigneur's oppressions of his peasantry, and his exactions of feudal services from those whose children were dying around them for want of bread? Where do we find the minutes that assigned these starving wretches to some vile pettifogger, to be fleeced by impositions and mockery of justice in the seigneur's courts (petty courts of justice?) Who gives us the awards of the intendant (head tax-collector) and his sub délégués, which took off the taxes of a man of fashion, and laid them with accumulated weight on the poor who were so unfortunate as to be his neighbours? Who has dwelt sufficiently upon explaining all the ramifications of despotism, regal, aristocratical, and ecclesiastical, pervading the whole mass of the people; reaching, like a circulating fluid, the most distant capillary tubes of poverty and wretchedness? In these cases the sufferers are too ignoble to be known, and the mass too indiscriminate to be pitied. But should a philosopher feel and reason thus? Should he mistake the cause for the effect? and, giving all his pity to the few, feel no compassion for the many, because they suffer, in his eyes, not individually, but by millions? The excesses of the people cannot, I repeat, be justified; it would undoubtedly have done them credit, both as men and as Christians, if they had possessed their new-acquired power with moderation. But, let it be remembered, that the populace in no country ever use power with moderation; excess is inherent in their aggregate constitution. And as every government in the world knows, that violence infallibly attends power in their hands, it is doubly bound in common sense, and for common safety, so to conduct itself that the people may not find an intetest in public confusion. They will always suffer much and long before they are effec-

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tually roused; nothing, therefore, can kindle the flame but such oppressions of some classes or order in society as give able men the opportunity of seconding the general mass; discontent will diffuse itself around; and if the Government take not warning in time, it is alone answerable for all the burnings, and all the plunderings, and all the devastation, and all the blood that follow."
It appeared to him that we were in the state which Mr. Arthur Young had described, in words applied to other countries and other times. We have all the weight of taxes here complained of, and all the consequences described as resulting from them. That, indeed, described by Gibbon, as the "horrid practice of murdering new-born infants," might be supposed, by those unacquainted with the real state of society, not yet to have taken root amongst us. But the country has its eye upon the numerous cases of infanticide resulting from poverty and the operation of the New Poor-law; and it does not forget, that since that law was passed, there has issued from the shop of a respectable bookseller in London, a publication recommending to parents a systematic and wholesale murder of infant children the moment they are ushered into the world, as a wholesome piece of domestic as well as state policy, the means being pointed out with minuteness under the term of "painless extinction." The question is, what should now be done? What he would recommend the House to do to ameliorate the condition of the people, he had stated in a resolution which he should move, and take a division of the House upon. The resolution itself contains the reasons for such a course, and the mode of carrying it out. Its object is to reduce the taxes upon the necessaries of life, in order to bring down the price of the necessaries, and to give the poor people a larger command over them in return for their labour, and he thought its operation would be fair towards those engaged in the cultivation of the soil, and towards those engaged in manufactures, shipping, and commerce. It was not necessary for him to go into any details on the equitable assessment of property which he suggested in his resolution; but he had read "an argument for the general relief of the country from taxation, and eventually front the corn-laws, by an assessment on property," by Mr. Heathfield, an actuary in the city. The argument and the observations with which Mr. Heathfield accompanies it, squared in the
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main, with his opinions of the course which should be pursued to carry out what he recommends, and what his resolution proposed. Mr. Heathfield gives an estimate of the assumed value of all descriptions of property, which he was inclined to think somewhat overvalued; but that does not invalidate the principle that ought to be adopted. Mr. Heathfield's proposition is to throw the taxes on the owners of accumulated property, and to do away with the taxes raised through the medium of excise and customs on those articles which he had enumerated in his resolutions. He was a man of property himself, and would very willingly acquiesce in giving up that part which would be required of him to carry out his proposition, with a view to secure peace to the mansion and the homestead, and more comfort and contentment to the inhabitants of the cottage than now existed. He, therefore, begged leave to move the resolution of which he had given notice:—
"That the taxes imposed on the necessaries of life in this country render them so dear, that the working people cannot command a sufficiency to supply their daily wants; that the taxes imposed on raw material are an obstruction to the productive industry of the country; and that the inability of the people to purchase a sufficiency of the things which their labour would produce, acts injuriously upon those who employ the people, and compels them, from want of a market at remunerating prices, to limit the employment of many, and to refuse employment altogether to others, who are anxious to earn their bread by the labour of their hands, and who, from being denied employment, are compelled to accept relief from the parish in any way that they can obtain it, or starve. That such a state of things is detrimental to the productive classes, and dangerous to all other classes. That, according to the return ordered to be printed by this House on the 10th day of June last, the taxes raised by the Excise and Customs on the following articles amounted, in the year ending the 5th day of January, 1839, to the sum of 17,614,543 l. —viz. on malt, 4,932,080 l.; hops, 302,906 l.; soap, 810,813 l.; candles and tallow, 183,669 l.; coals, sea-borne, 7,632 l.; sugar and molasses, 4,893,684 l,; tea, 3,362,035 l.; coffee, 684,970 l; butter, 251,665 l; cheese, 113,907 l.; currants and raisins, 300,828 l.; corn, 186,760 l.; cotton-wool and sheeps', imported, 725,445 l.; silk, 254,874 l.; hides and skins, 61,478 l.; and on paper, 541,788 l. That justice, sound policy, and humanity, require that the laws imposing these taxes should be repealed, the corn-laws abolished, and that the revenue should in future be raised by an equitable assessment on property."
Mr. Williamsseconded the motion. He felt great regret that his hon. Friend had not brought forward a motion of this important nature at an earlier period of the Session. His hon. Friend had given a most lamentable description of the state of the productive classes; but he was fully borne out in his tale of woe by their real condition. It had often been his lot to offer all the opposition in his power to acts of extravagance committed. by the government, but he felt convinced that this House would never stop in its career of profuse expenditure, that it would never show any regard for economising the revenues of the country, until the taxes were fairly borne by themselves. In the present state of taxation the poorer and middle classes were burdened much more heavily than the rich. Hence arose the indifference of Members of that house to every proposition for reducing the taxation of the country. He held in his hand a list of eleven articles, the amount arising to the revenue from which was 30,000,000 l. out of the 51,000,000 l. of annual taxation. All these taxes fell as heavily on the middle and lower classes as on the rich; but there were some of them, consisting of sums levied on the necessaries of life, which pressed with four or five times more weight on the poor than they did on the rich. The tax on British and foreign spirits was 8,000,000 l., that on malt 5,000,000 l., that on sugar 4,000,000 l. Would any hon. Member deny that these taxes fell as heavily on the poor as on the rich? But how stood the case as regarded the indispensable necessaries of life, particularly to those engaged in manufactures? Malt and hops, he need not say, were the ingredients out of which the poor man's beer was made. The profits received by the brewer and seller of this article served to raise the tax on it to 130 per cent. How was the rich man's wine taxed? Why, claret and champagne not 20 per cent.; but taking all wines together, the impost laid on them did not exceed 25 per cent. Let it he recollected, too, that wine to the rich man was a luxury; beer to the poor man was an indispensable necessary. The poor man's tea, was taxed 200 per cent., whilst the rich man did not contribute more than 30 per cent. to the revenue. Tobacco was no doubt a luxury, but he believed there were many poor men who would give up their meals rather than do without tobacco. This article was taxed probably not less
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than 800 per cent. Now would they do what his hon. Friend recommended, and place those taxes, which now pressed so heavily and unjustly on the poor, in a fair porportion to their wealth, on the rich? No, they would do nothing of the sort. They would never tax themselves so long as the poor man was shut out from the right of electing Members to that House. Could any man wonder at the dissatisfaction which now existed? Those were the grievances which called it forth, and they were enough to cause it. His hon. Friend had made out a case so strong, that, if any feeling existed in that House for the sufferings of the poor, it would be the means of obtaining for them some relief. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton had proved that the tax on corn cost the country eighteen millions annually. This should be called a tax payable by the poor man through the rich. This unequal system of taxation was producing its natural effects. The diminished means of consumption was proved by the fact that the difference between the amount received for the tax on malt in the year 1836 and in the last year was upwards of a million sterling.
The House divided on the original motion. Ayes 58; Noes 15: Majority 43.

List of the AYES.

Barnard, E. G.

Lowther, J. H.

Bernal, R.

Maule, hon. F.

Blackburn, I.

Morpeth, Viscount

Blair, J.

Norreys, Lord

Blake, W. J.

Paget, F.

Broadley, H.

Palmer, G.

Brownrigg, S.

Parker, J.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Parker, R. T.

Callaghan, D.

Pigot, D. R.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Pryme, G.

Craig, W. G.

Rediugton, T. N.

Divett, E.

Rice, right hon. T. S

East, J. B.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Eaton, R. J.

Russell, Lord J.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Russell, Lord

Farnham, E. B.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

Gaskell, J. M.

Seymour, Lord

Gordon, R.

Shell, R. L.

Grattan, J.

Sheppard, T.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Smith, G. R.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Somerville, Sir W. M

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Hodgson, F.

Stanley, hon. W. O.

Mope, hon. C.

Stock, Dr.

Hope, G. W.

Surrey, Earl of

Hoskins, K.

Thomson, rt. C. P.

Howard, P. H.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Hutton, R,

Waddington, H, S.

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TELLERS.

Wilde, Mr. Serjeant

Baring, F. T.

Wood, C.

Steuart, R.

List of the NOES

Aglionby, H. A.

Hume, J.

Brotherton, J.

Humphery, J.

Browne, R. D.

O'Connell, D.

Duncombe, T.

Scholefield, J.

Ewart, W.

Williams, W.

Finch, F.

Yates, J. A.

Harvey, D. W.

TELLERS.

Hector, C. J.

Attwood, T.

Hindley, C.

Fielden, J.

EDUCATION (IRELAND).
On the question being again put,
Mr. Dillon Brownefelt sorry that he had not a different opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the motion which he rose to bring forward, but the fact was, that it was grounded upon a petition which was not received by the House, and which was presented so late in the Session that he could find no certain opportunity except the present for bringing the matter forward. He felt that he was about to give expressions to sentiments which would place him in no very desirable position. He felt he should be opposed on the opposite side of the House, because hon. Gentlemen might suppose that the object of his motion was to maintain the stability of the Catholic Church by civil enactments, when he only desired to assert its religious independence, and he did not expect a more favourable reception from the varied sections that compose the ministerial side of the House. Her Majesty's Government would oppose him, some because they were as hostile to the progress of the Catholic faith as the most orthodox hon. Gentlemen opposite, though they expressed themselves in different terms; and others because his proposition was opposed to the present system of national education in Ireland, of which the present Government were sponsors. He should be opposed also by another section at this side of the House, the English and Irish Protestant movement party. Deriving their belief from private interpretation, they had in common no definite principles of faith, and consequently thought it was impossible (and under the circumstances he agreed with them), to adopt any religious instruction agreeable to all. Others who wished to unite with secular instruction certain moral instruction, based upon a vague, abstract, indefinite principle,
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which he could not comprehend, a species of compound extract of all religions, a sort of ethical quintessence, which they declared to be common to every creed, hut which he feared would be recognised by none. And he felt he should be opposed by another section on his own side of the House, which gave him much cause of regret, many of whom were his friends, most of whom were his fellow-countrymen, and all of whom were his fellow-believers. They would oppose him, not because they did not wish as sincerely as he did to maintain the religious independence of the Roman Catholic Church, not because they did not acknowledge as fully as he did, that no religious instruction can be received by Roman Catholic children incompatible with Ecclesiastical authority, and not because they did not see as clearly as he did that the time was fast approaching, when, arising out of very potent reasons, the whole Catholic hierarchy of Ireland would repudiate the present system of national education in Ireland, but they would oppose him because they might think that dwelling upon a subject of this peculiar nature was imprudent in a Roman Catholic. The member of that Church who did as he was doing might be designated by those who confounded civil with religious duties, as a political bigot, when he was only maintaining the religious rights and privileges of his Church. Those Gentlemen might censure him too because they saw him in opposition to a favourite Government upon a favourite scheme, and saw him assailing her Majesty's Government in Ireland in a quarter in which they were found very vulnerable in this country. Indeed it had been said, as he had been informed by an hon. Member, a particular friend of his, that in consequence of his having held peculiar opinions upon this subject, that he risked his seat. However the hon. Gentleman might have used the expression, he could not so far forget early associations as to reciprocate the wish. It had also been stated, that whatever might be his private opinions, he had no right to act in opposition to his party, this was a system of political philosophy he could never adopt, because it resolved itself to this, that a supporter of Government should never have an opinion of his own. In fact, in political matters, the doctrine of the barbarian who burned the library of Alexandria should

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be established—that we should seek all wisdom and principle in the Koran given from the Treasury benches, and it ought to be esteemed profanation to look beyond it—that a man was not to think or act for himself, or to propound any scheme emanating from his own mind—that he was never to vindicate his own principles, though, at the present time, whatever might be a man's opinions, and however they might be opposed to his party, and however slavishly and mechanically he may serve that party, he need not, in the great vacillation of parties, despair of seeing those opinions vindicated. Therefore, he saw that he should meet with considerable resistance from all sides, and sympathy from none, but he hoped that the House, which was always inclined to act generously, would accord to him its attention, particularly because he stood alone, and did not hearken to the voice that would whisper to him
"For party give up what is due to mankind."
In treating this important subject he would indulge as little as possible in any polemical matter; he would only introduce it as far as it was necessary for the illustration of his argument. He knew that religious discussion was displeasing to the House, but it was anomalous to expect the entire rejection of it, when the House legislated upon religious matters. They were to consider this subject, first as regarded the combination of religious and secular instruction, and, secondly, how that combination should be made so as to sink the sectarian prejudices of all parties, and, as far as his motion extended, the peculiar state of society in Ireland. He begged to be understood, that he did not wish to press upon the consideration of the House any peculiar religious opinions of his own, he did not wish to maintain that one set of religious opinions were right, and another wrong, but that such being the notions of the majority, that we should to a great extent legislate accordingly. He did not wish to attach any peculiar importance to any peculiar opinions, but he wished to maintain, that whatever were the opinions of the masses, their laws should bear a necessary reference to them. Whatever might be his private opinions, he would not in that place declare, that the Irish people were right in submitting the religious instruction of their children to the pastors of
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their Church; but that such being the feelings of the Irish people, we could not establish a system of national education repugnant to those feelings. He was of opinion, that secular and religious education should be combined. He held this opinion simply as a citizen, without even referring to higher considerations, for if he had been an unbeliever, he would maintain, that religion was the best engine which could be used to promote the prosperity and happiness of the State. For he always thought, that those moral fears excited in the youthful mind by early instruction, did more in after life to deter men from the commission of the greater crimes than all the penal enactments with which you could crowd your statute-book. Many a man, instigated by bad passions to take away the life of his fellow, would despise the authority of the law, and, perhaps, anticipate its judgment with his own hand, did he not, in consequence of early impressions, fear a tribunal which is not of this world, and an inevitable justice whose vigilance never sleeps, and whose course cannot be diverted. Religious instruction being combined with secular, the next consideration was, how could that combination be best made to suit the sectarian prejudices of all parties. Could it be done under a lay supervision? The Government say they will adopt a Committee on authority common to all, and communicate religious instruction common to all. Could this be done in a community composed like this, of multitudinous sects, some of whom acknowledged Church authority, and some of whom did not; and many of whom differed in essentials? Those who did not recognize any Church authority, might receive religious instruction however it came; but those who did acknowledge it, would repudiate this joint-stock company in religion. Where they differed in essentials, could you find any religious instruction common to all? To achieve that desirable undertaking, you should discover some resting place so elevated above all sectarian prejudices, that each could find a neutral ground to join in bonds of amity. Could you find this neutral ground between the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England? Could you find for them any principle common to both, which they consider so paramount above all others, that they will reject the consideration of

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all others to obtain instruction upon this? You will, perhaps, say this principle is the abstract question of redemption. But the Roman Catholic was bound to consider a belief in the sacrifice of the mass, and in the seven sacraments, as essential to salvation as a belief in the redemption; and any Catholic teacher who is conscientious, would be obliged to inculcate this principle. Therefore, you would exclude Catholic teachers from giving religious instruction, or you would employ men who ought not to be trusted. Amongst the other Dissenters, are there any brighter hopes of coming to an understanding? Suppose there were established in this town, a school upon your joint-stock principle amongst a community which comprehends different sects—members of the Established Church, Presbyterians, Socinians, and Unitarians—and that the majority (and it is no very remote contingency) were Unitarians; suppose Mr. Fox, the Unitarian preacher, were chosen as the spiritual instructor. Now, Sir, Mr. Fox declared—he, (the hon. Member) used the expression with the greatest reverence—speaking of the godhead of the Saviour, "that our Saviour was merely a prophet; that he was the first radical Reformer of his time; and that if he were incarnate in those days, he would be taken up as a Chartist!"* Could any Protestant, could any Roman Catholic, could any Christian parent submit his child to receive religious instruction from this man? And Mr. Fox would have as good a right as any member of the Established Church to lay claim to be made religious instructor under the joint-stock company in religion. Therefore, he thought, that secular and religious instruction could not be combined under a lay supervision. And then he came to the peculiar state of society in Ireland; he was not cognizant of any country less calculated from its social condition to receive a combined system of religious education. There had been two parties in Ireland long contending, the one for equality, the other for domination; and religion was the weapon they most constantly made use of in their conflicts. When civil concessions were granted on the one side, and when licen-
* It seems proper to state, that the gentleman alluded to in the text, denied ever having used any such word or words bearing any such interpretation as Mr. D. Browne assigned to the language of Mr. Fox.
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tious power was bridled upon the Other, the state of things was not much improved. Catholic emancipation, and the suppression of Orange societies, did not much improve the moral condition of the country; for afterwards two evil passions raged, the least calculated to promote that object, and the most to disturb the social order—on one side the keen memory of wrong, and on the other, the sullen mortification engendered by the loss of power. Those passions are ever fermenting, being kneaded by the vigilance of one party or another, and however they may assume today the aspect of tranquillity, like the yeast of the housewife, a small portion is always laid by to feed the excitement of to-morrow. Under those circumstances, how can you adopt a system of religious education, common to all, and acceptable to all? Will those who have lost power receive religious instruction from their Helots, or will those who have gained equality allow their former tyrants to minister to them? No more than will the emancipated negroes of Jamaica (and we know this from sad experience) receive their laws prescribed to them by their former task-, masters. There could not be adopted a joint system of education in Ireland. Any system of education adopted in Ireland must have respect to the Roman Catholic religion. There are 7,000,000, forming the majority of the population of that country; any national education must respect the feelings of that majority, or as far as they are concerned, it will be inoperative. They cannot receive religious instruction, except from their pastors or persons accredited by them, because every Roman Catholic is obliged to submit, with implicit obedience, to the authority of his Church. That implicit obedience has procured for the Church its most distinguishing mark, its unity, which has been undisturbed by time, and space, and clime, and taste, and language; which had adapted it to flourish under every Constitution, while it could be affected by none. Let the House, however, take those opinions from the Catholic hierarchy themselves. In 1826, the Catholic Bishops in Ireland assembled in synod, and after frequent conferences with Government, promulgated certain resolutions as the analysis of their aggregate opinions, and as an example to their flocks. He would read a short extract from those resolutions;—

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"That the admission of Protestants and Roman Catholics into the same schools for the purpose of literary instruction, may, under existing circumstances, be allowed, provided sufficient care be taken to protect the religion of Roman Catholic children, and to furnish them with adequate means of instruction. That in order to secure sufficient protection to the religion of Roman Catholic children, under such a system of education, we deem it necessary that the master of each school in which the majority of the pupils profess the Roman Catholic faith, be a Roman Catholic; and that in schools in which the Roman Catholic children form only a minority, a permanent Roman Catholic assistant be employed, and that such master and assistant be appointed upon the recommendation, or with the express approval, of the Roman Catholic Bishop of the diocese in which they are to be employed; and further, that they, or either of them, be removed upon the representation of such Bishop. The same rule to be observed for the appointment or dismissal of mistresses and assistants in female schools. That in conformity with the principle of protecting the religion of Roman Catholic children, the books intended for their particular instruction in religion shall be selected or approved of by the Roman Catholic Prelates, and that no book or tract for common instruction in literature, shall be introduced into any school in which Roman Catholic children are educated, which book or tract may be objected to on religious grounds by the Roman Catholic Bishop of the diocese in which such school is established. That appointed as we have been by Divine Providence to watch over and preserve the Catholic faith in Ireland; and, responsible as we are to God for the souls of our Hocks, we will, in our respective dioceses, withhold our concurrence and support from any system of education which will not fully accord with the principles expressed in the foregoing resolutions."
Such were the resolutions passed in the year 1826, by the Irish Bishops assembled in Synod; their opinions are there given distinctly upon the terms upon which they are willing to receive Government assistance for the purposes of national education. These opinions have not since been altered, and they are not to be mistaken. They declare that they will not recognize any system of education, except with the following provisions:—That they will not allow Catholics to be educated in the same schools with Protestants, unless that there is a Catholic teacher appointed where the majority are Roman Catholics, and that when Roman Catholics only form the minority, that there is appointed a permanent Catholic teacher, approved of by the Bishop of the diocese, and subject to removal upon his recommendation. These
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principles are as distinctly opposed to the regulations of the Board of National Education in Ireland as principles can be; but it may be said, that the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland have altered their opinions, and that when, on a late occasion, certain resolutions hostile to the Board were proposed by the Archbishop of Tuam, that these resolutions were negatived by a majority. This is a fact. But a minority of eight supported the propositions of Dr. M'Hale, which would, independently of other considerations, be a sufficient reason to prove, that the national system of education could not be generally efficacious, for those Bishops superintend districts which comprehend one-third of the population of Ireland, and they have concurrent with them in opinion, a large majority of the members of the Established Church; and the majority of Bishops, in approving of it, gave but a qualified approval, and subject to a reservation which must be ultimately fatal to the system. They said,
"We will not disapprove of the Board, however it may lay down principles discordant; for as its regulations depend upon civil enactments, we are not ecclesiastically responsible for it; but it will be our duty to see that practically it does not operate incompatibly with the authority of our Church. We do not wish to destroy it, because we wish to make use of it; but we shall only make use of it in strict accordance with our own principles. We will assert, primarily, our own authority, and stand in a position as if it never existed. In our clerical capacities, it is not necessary we should be cognizant of its existence. We will resolve that the children of our Church shall be educated in our faith after that fashion which their Bishops will approve of. We will receive pecuniary assistance if, under the circumstances, it is offered to us, we care not from what quarter it comes, or from what Board, however constituted, as to its fundamental principles, provided it does not interfere with us in its practical operations."
Therefore the Board stands in this position: it has eight Bishops separating from it because it is not established upon certain principles, and the remainder of the Bishops will hold no connexion with it unless those principles are put into operation. Unless the House adopted the suggestion in this resolution which he proposed, it would exclude more than one-third of the population of Ireland from the benefits of the system, and unless in practice it followed the spirit of this resolution, it would exclude almost the whole of the population. But he had strong

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reason to believe, that that approval had been given by the majority of the Bishops to the Board, with a reservation which would prove fatal to the system. The matter was referred to a higher authority, and to one which must necessarily be omnipotent with the ecclesiastics of the Roman Catholic Church, and he believed that the decision, though it was not yet officially announced, was in accordance with the opinions of Dr. M'Hale. But whatever might have been the peculiar decision upon that peculiar case, there were recent circumstances connected with the ecclesiastical history of Europe which rendered it a matter of little doubt. In fact, every day the opponents to the Board of National Education were increasing. It was but a short time since Dr. M'Hale stood alone; it was found that eight Bishops adopted his principles when suggested, and when it was generally supposed he would not have had one to support him; in fact, Catholic hostility to the Board was spreading rapidly over Ireland. He would take the liberty of reading an extract from a letter received from a divine of the highest character, and of acknowledged talents; he was not at liberty to mention the name, as the letter was only just put into his hands by a party who was not authorised to give it publicity, but it came from an individual not connected with the eight Bishops who were allied to Dr. M'Hale, and it comprehended what he conceived to be the principal objections to the Board of Education, and given in language better than he could adopt:—
"The chief objections to the existing system, as far as I can recollect, are the following:—1st. A combined system of education on the basis of religion, and yet excluding religious peculiarities, must either exclude the Catholic religion altogether, or give offence to some party. 2nd. Government interference is bad. 3rd. Structure of the Board is vicious and sectarian, because a Board, in which there are only three Catholics, does not represent in due proportion the Catholic population; because, as is notorious from the errors of the scripture lessons and fifth book of lessons, it affords not a sufficient security for our faith; because the composition of these books was entrusted to Carlisle, a Presbyterian; and because the structure of that Board is a formal recognition of Protestant ascendancy in a Catholic country and national concern. 4th. The system of district inspectors has been objected to. 5th. Training school also objectionable, 6th, Scripture lessons have been
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proved to contain heresy and error almost in every page. The questions appended to them embrace all existing controversies, The notes are saturated with the Calvanistic errors. The text is faithless, corrupt, and unauthorized. And the uncontrolled power of the masters in expounding these books, makes the thing still more dangerous. 7th. The 5th book of lessons contains theories at variance with Moses, and has been strongly objected to. 8th. The provisions of the existing system have been proved to be at variance with the resolutions of the episcopal body in 1826. 9th. It has been urged also that the fundamental principle of the system is vicious and anti-Catholic. As the primary object of the system is to unite all in a forgetfulness of religious destinations, to impart education upon neutral grounds, and to thrust peculiar tenets into the contemptuous obscurity of separate instruction. Finally, it has been contended, and it is my impression, that nothing but a separate grant will ever satisfy the people of Ireland."
Those were the sentiments of a learned divine, with which he perfectly coincided. He would not allude to the opinions of Dr. M'Hale—they were well known to the House and to the country; and they were opinions which would be respected by every Catholic and every Irishman, as emanating from a man who was an ornament to his Church and to his country, who shone brightest amongst the Catholic hierarchy, and who filled the vacancy left in it by Dr. Doyle; indeed, the people of Ireland, in mourning for the loss of that great polemical champion, might turn to Dr. M'Hale, applying the quotation made use of on a late occasion by the noble Lord the Member fur North Lancashire, and when they saw one golden fruit fallen from the parent stem, might exclaim in truth—
"Primo avulso non deficit alter Aureus et simili frondescit virga metallo."
He thought that the present system of national education could never work, that no power or no art could force it upon the consideration of the people of Ireland. The desire of a favourite Government could not do it. Even the support to it, if given by the great champion of the liberties of his country, would not do it. Nor would it be effected by the bland temporizing of Dr. Murray. The policy of England had ever been to force upon the Irish people the religion of their conquerors, to Anglo Saxonize the country in every respect. And the people had shown, under circumstances the most trying, the most unexampled fidelity to their religion,

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The history of Ireland proves how assiduously her persecutors pursued their object, and how faithfully the persecuted clung to their altars. In every age and under every circumstance, the history of Ireland is sadly connected with religious persecution, and is brightly illustrative of national fidelity to religion. We may revert to the remotest period, whether our liberties were trampled by the hoof of the heathen, or under the banners of the cross. There is an evidence of the same object an the one side, and the same resolution upon the other. We may look back from Turgesius to Cromwell, and from Cromwell to the present time, and while invariably we see the frequent brand cast into the Temple, as we trace the ravages of the barbarian up the steep of time, we at the same time, mark in our progress how, still undismayed, the Catholic clung to the sanctuary. tuary. Do you think, now, that that people who have been so faithful to their creed, will permit a proseletysing Government Board, coming with a smiling face, to undermine their principles? What they refused to persecution, will they yield to sophistry and intrigue? The wolf which they repelled, will they now admit into the fold, because it approaches under sheep's clothing? Will they desert their Priesthood? When you passed every law that bigotry could suggest and tyranny enforce, to shut the people of Ireland out from religious instruction, did their priesthood desert them? When you endeavoured to put out the mind of Ireland, and when you rendered it penal not alone to educate its Catholic population, but when you declared it to be crime of peculiar atrocity to educate a minister of religion, did the people then want religious instruction? They then obtained it—they now will draw it from the same source, and they will not forget that in the days of persecution that that priesthood sought abroad, for their sakes alone, that education which was denied them at home, and collected, even amid the convulsions that agitated England, those seeds which they have scattered in their native land, the glorious harvest of which Ireland now exhibits in her seven millions of Roman Catholic population. The hon. Member concluded by moving,
"That, to satisfy the conscientious scruples of a large proportion of the Protestant, as well as Roman Catholic population of Ireland,
1270
and conciliate to the Board of National Education in that country the general confidence of the community, it is expedient that this House do recommend to the Commissioners the discontinuance of the use of the "Scripture Lessons," which are equally offensive to persons of all religious persuasions, as a mutilation of the Word of God; that it be a further recommendation to the Commissioners to adopt in practice the principle of setting apart an hour of each day for the religious instruction of children of different creeds, to be communicated in separate sections of the schools connected with the Board either by the spiritual pastors of the children respectively, or by other competent persons duly accredited by them, and subject to their supervision and control; that no religious instruction be communicated to the children in such schools except by their pastors, or by persons so accredited; and that, there being but two Roman Catholics amongst the seven Members of whom the Board consists, it is desirable, in order to secure the confidence of seven-eighths of the Irish people, both with reference to religious instruction, and to the impartial distribution of the funds at the disposal of the Board, that a Roman Catholic Divine, approved of by the body of Roman Catholic Prelates in Ireland, should be added to the Board of Commissioners."
Motion not seconded.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY-MAYNOOTH.
On the proposal to grant 8,928 l. for defraying the expenses of Maynooth,
Colonel Percivalregretted that Government had not given the Irish Members an opportunity of expressing an opinion on this vote, by bringing forward the estimates at an earlier period, and he believed that the delay was purposely made; but at that late period of the Session it was useless to take a division against the vote, although if his friends chose to divide they should have his vote.
ViscountCole would certainly divide the House upon the question.
Mr. Redingtonsaid, that the reason why the inquiry into this grant was not brought forward at an earlier period, did not rest with hon. Members on that (the Ministerial) side of the House; but a want of determination on the part of hon. Members opposite, one of whom, the noble Lord, the Member for Durham, having had a notice on the book for a long time.
Viscount Castlereaghbelieved that the opposition to this vote was daily increasing and he could no longer be a silent instru-

1271
ment in supporting a vote which went to oppose the Established Church.
Viscount Morpethsaid that as this was an annual skirmish be would not prolong the discussion, but he must say that his only objection to the vote was that it was too scanty. He did not deny that, after they had left Maynooth, the Catholic clergy, like every other class of religious teachers, did take part in politics, but politics did not form part of the system of instruction; on the contrary, he believed that they were carefully kept out of the system.
Mr. Finchwould regret to sec the day when the House should refuse to come to a vote for the support of the education of the Catholic clergy. As a Dissenter he was sure he spoke the language of Dissenters, when he said that they were quite willing to accord to Catholics the right of worshipping their Maker after their own mode, and after their own creed, and if they did this it was but right to grant to a large majority of the Irish nation the means of educating their clergy. If the vote should come forward in another Session he trusted it would be recollected that a portion of the money of all classes, as well in England as in Ireland, was appropriated to professors in the English Universities, whilst a great part of the people of this country was shut out from those Universities by the test established by them.
The House divided: Ayes 53; Noes 9: Majority 44.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Admiral

Labouchere, rt. hn. H.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lushington, C.

Attwood, T.

Lushington, rt. hn. S.

Baring, F. T.

Maule, hon. F.

Barnard, E. G.

Morpeth, Viscount

Barry, G. S.

Muskett, G. A.

Blake, W. J.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Bridgeman, H.

O'Connell, M. J.

Brotherton, J.

Pigot, D. R.

Callaghan, D.

Redington, T. N.

Donkin, Sir R. S.

Russell, Lord J.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Rutherford, rt. hn. A.

Finch, F.

Scholefield, J.

Grattan, J.

Smith, J. A.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Smith, B.

Hawes, B.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Hector, C. J.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Hodges, T. L.

Stanley, hon. W. O.

Hoskins, K.

Steuart, R.

Howard, P. H.

Stock, Dr.

Howick, Visct.

Surrey, Earl of

Hume, J.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Hutton, R,

Vigors, N. A.

1272

Wallace, R.

Wyse, T.

Warburton, H.

Yates, J. A.

Wilde, Mr. Serjeant

TELLERS.

Williams, W.

O'Ferrall, M.

Wood, C.

Gordon, R.

List of the NOES.

Blair, J.

Lockhart, A. M.

Burroughes, H. N.

Palmer, G.

Castlereagh, Visct.

Perceval, Colonel

Freshfield, J. W.

TELLERS.

Grimsditch, T.

Cole, Viscount

Hodgson, R.

Round, J.

The House resumed. The Chairman reported the resolutions of the House, and obtained leave to sit again.

ADMIRALTY COURT.
The Admiralty Court Bill was read a third time on the Motion of Mr. C. Wood.
Mr. Hume Mr. Hume moved as an amendment to the first clause, that instead of the sum of 4,000 l. being the salary to be paid to the Judge of the High Court of Admiralty, the sum of 3,000 l. be inserted. He bad the authority of Sir John Nicholl for this proposition, who had declared that 3,000 l. was an adequate salary.
Mr. C. Woodthought, that after the two long discussions, and the two divisions that had taken place in a much fuller House than now, on this question, and which had been carried by a majority of two to one in favour of the larger sum, it was not necessary that he should trouble the house with any observations.
The House divided on the question that 4,000 l. stand in the Bill: Ayes 47; Noes 16: Majority 31.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Admiral

Morpeth, Viscount

Anson, hon. Col.

Muskett, G. A.

Baring, F. T.

O'Connell, D.

Bowes, J.

O'Connell, M. J.

Clements, Visct.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Craig, W. G.

Palmer, G.

Dalmeny, Lord.

Parker, J.

Donkin, Sir R. S.

Pechell, Captain

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Perceval, Colonel

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Pigot, D. R.

Ewart, W.

Price, Sir R.

Finch, F.

Pryme, G.

Gordon, R.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Grattan, J.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Hawes, B.

Russell, Lord J.

Hinde, J. H.

Rutherford, rt. hn. A.

Hodges, T. L.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Hoskins, K.

Sheil, R. L.

Howick, Viscount

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Lowther, J. H.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Macaulay, T. B.

Steuart, R.

Maule, hon. F.

Stock, Dr.

1273

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

TELLERS.

Wilbraham, G.

Wood, C.

Wood, G. W.

Grey, Sir G.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Hector, C. J.

Blair, J.

Hodgson, R.

Broadley, H.

Hotharn, Lord

Brotherton, J.

Parker, R. T.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Vigors, N. A.

D'Israeli, B.

Williams, W.

Duncombe, T.

Forester, hon. G.

TELLERS.

Grimsditch, T.

Hume, J.

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Wallace, R.

Mr. Hume Mr. Hume moved that a proviso be added to the end of the first clause, enacting that the judge of the Admiralty Court, after the present Parliament, should, during his continuance in office, be incapable of being elected and sitting as a Member of the House of Commons.
Mr. C. Woodmust again say, that after the full discussion this question had undergone, it was unnecessary for him to say a word upon it.
Mr. Finchwould support the hon. Member's motion as it did not apply to Dr. Lushington.
Lord Hothamsaid that the proviso of the hon. Member of Kilkenny made no personal application to Dr. Lushington, and he saw no reason why the report of the committee on this subject should not be acted upon.
Captain Pechellopposed the proviso on principle, having voted against the hon. Member for Southwark on a similar question.
Mr. Wallaceshould vote for the proviso from sheer and positive principle.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, it was certainly purely a question of principle. There was now no apprehension of the abuse of the prerogative of the Crown; he was therefore exceedingly happy to vote againt the motion of his hon. Friend.
The House divided on the proviso. Ayes 20; Noes 41: Majority 21.

List of the AYES.

Blair, J.

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Broadley, H.

Hawes, B.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Hinde, J. H.

D'Israeli, B.

Hodgson, R.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Hotharn, Lord

Duncombe, T.

Lowther, J. H.

Ewart, W.

Palmer, G.

Forester, hon. G.

Parker, R. T.

Grimsditch, T.

Perceval, Colonel

1274

TELLERS.

Vigors, N. A.

Hume, J.

Williams, W.

Wallace, R.

Bill passed.

SALE OF SPIRITS (IRELAND).
The Sale of Spirits (Ireland) Bill was read a third time.
Mr. O'Connellmoved to add a clause, the object of which was to put the grocers in Ireland in the same condition with respect to the sale of Spirits as they were before the passing of the 6th and 7th of William 4th. By that Act grocers in Ireland were prevented from retailing spirits. The operation of the prohibition had been found most injurious, and had caused a great derangement of capital. Besides this, it had thrown the trade in the sale of spirits into the hands of an inferior and less respectable class of persons. The clause which he had to propose was limited in its operation to those grocers who were in business at the time of the passing of the act to which he had alluded.
Mr. Shawobjected to the clause. From the experience which he had in his judicial capacity, he thought it was most important to prevent grocers selling drams of spirits in their shops.
Mr. Sheilhad two petitions to present, praying that the grocers might be placed in the same situation in Ireland as in Scotland, and would vote for the clause.
Colonel Percevalhad opposed the bill of last year, and would certainly vote against the clause of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
Mr. Humehad presented a most numerously signed petition from Kilkenny, praying for such an alteration in the law as was now proposed, and he would therefore support the introduction of the clause.
The House divided on the question that the clause be brought up. Ayes 36; Noes 9: Majority 27.
The House again divided on the question that the clause be read a second time. Ayes 33; Noes 9: Majority 24.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Admiral

Gordon, R.

Aglionby, H. A.

Hodges, T. L.

Baring, F. T.

Hoskins, K.

Craig, W. G.

Hume, J.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Lushington, rt. hn. S.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Maule, hon. F.

Ewart, W.

Morpeth, Viscount

Finch, F.

Muskett, G. A.

1275

O'Connell, M. J.

Steuart, R.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Stock, Dr.

Parker, J.

Vigors, N. A.

Parnell, rt. hn. Sir H.

Wallace, R.

Pechell, Captain

Wilbraham, G.

Pigot, D. R.

Wood, G. W.

Price, Sir R.

Pryme, G.

TELLERS.

Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.

O'Connell, D.

Sheil, R. L.

Redlngton, T. N.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

List of the NOES.

Broadley, H.

Palmer, G.

Brotherton, J.

Parker, R. T.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Perceval, Colonel

Forester, hon. G.

TELLERS.

Hinde, J. H.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Lowther, J. H.

Hodgson, F.

Clause read a second and third time, and added to the Bill by way of rider.
Bill passed.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Assaults (Ireland); Constabulary Force (Ireland); Slave Trade Treaties; Sheep Stealers (Ireland); New South Wales.—Read a second time:—Public Works (Ireland); Railway Constables.—Read a third time:—Cathedral and Ecclesiastical Preferment; Turnpike Tolls.
Petitions presented. By the Bishop of London, from Dewsbury, Bishops Stortford, and other place, for the better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Lord Hatherton, from Kilkenny, for Alteration in Spirit Licenses.—By the Earl of Lichfield, from East Dereham, by Lord Duncannon, from Collumpton, by Viscount Melbourne, from London, and from several places, for a Uniform Penny Postage.

PUBLIC DISCONTENT.
The Earl of Wiltonwished to call the attention of the House and the noble Viscount to certain facts which had come to his knowledge illustrative of the state of the manufacturing districts. At Bolton, night after night, large multitudes had for a long time assembled in a field bordering upon the House of the mayor, and on Sunday last the parish church had been forcibly taken possession of by the mob; yesterday the same thing had taken place; and at the time the post left, they had not quitted the

1201
church. Besides this, a placard, which he would read to their Lordships, had for a great number of days been stuck upon the walls of Bolton; and no steps had been taken in consequence of it, even as regarded the persons who had signed the placard, as the chairman and secretary of the society. The noble Earl read the following placard:—
"Resolution unanimously agreed to by the General Convention, Wednesday, July 10, 1839, 'That this Convention has read, with feelings of inexpressible indignation, the statements said to have been made last night in the House of Commons by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, relative to the necessity and propriety of employing the metropolitan police force in various parts of the country for the suppression of public meetings of the people peaceably conducted; and further, the approbatory remarks of the same Minister, of the bloody-minded and atrocious assault made upon the people of Birmingham by a portion of that unconstitutional and obnoxious force; and this Convention is of opinion, that whenever and wherever persons assembled for just and lawful purposes, and conducting themselves without riot or tumult, are so assailed by the police or others, they are justified, upon every principle of law and self-preservation, in meeting force by force, even to the slaying of the persons guilty of such atrocious and ferocious assaults upon their rights, and persons.—By order of the Convention.—James Taylor, Chairman; Robert Heartwell, Secretary, P.M.'"
Now, all that the Government had done to meet these proeeedings was confined to a letter written by the Secretary of State to the magistrates, advising them to proceed against the persons concerned as for a misdemeanour; but he pressed it upon the attention of the noble Viscount, whether, under that very alarming state of things, some more energetic and active steps should not be taken. He could assure the noble Viscount, that he mentioned these circumstances without any feeling of animosity to the Government, his only object was, that the public peace might be maintained; he was going to Lancashire that night, and was anxious to assist the Government in any way, or furnish them with any information in his power. He only trusted, that it would be received in the same spirit in which it was offered, and in whatever was done by the Government, they might depend on the active co-operation and support of the great bulk of the well-disposed persons in that part of the country.
Viscount Melbourne: I give the noble
1202
Earl full credit for sincerity, and I believe that he has stated these circumstances from no feeling of hostility towards the Government or any Member of it; arid solely from an anxious desire that these circumstances of danger should receive, as they demand, the attention of the Government. In the work of preserving the public peace I feel perfectly assured, that we shall have the active and firm and anxious support of the noble Lord, and I trust, also, of every other Peer, to whatever party in the country he may belong. I am perfectly aware, that circumstances and proceedings of a dangerous and formidable character are going on in many parts of the country; I am perfectly aware, that the state of many parts of the country is by no means satisfactory; it is unquestionably pregnant with circumstances which cannot but excite considerable uneasiness and alarm; and I am perfectly aware that such proceedings as the noble Lord has described, as the breaking into and taking possession of churches, have lately been followed as a mode of great annoyance, and as a mode unquestionably, in my opinion, of breaking the public peace; and that mode has been resorted to in many parts of the country. As to the placard, a part of what the noble Lord has read, I only mention that, because I wish to make one observation, which appears to me to apply strongly to the general features of these proceedings. That placard, in my opinion, is very artfully worded. If I comprehend rightly what the noble Lord read, it asserts, that if an unprovoked attack is made upon a body of persons, lawfully assembled for lawful purposes, a right is thereby given to them to resist that attack by force; and I don't exactly know that that can be contradicted—I don't know any answer that can be given to that assertion. I admit, that the real intention and object is, as I believe, to urge the people to resistance and violation of the public peace; but I cannot help observing, that with the legal powers which exist in this country—with the privilege of free speech and free discussion which exists—in order to be extremely inflammatory and exciting, it is by no means necessary to break the law. On the contrary, it is not so entirely the breach and the violation of the law which is to be dreaded, as the abuse of the law, and the pushing to the utmost of those powers and privileges which the people

1203
legally possess. The noble Lord urges on me to take stronger measures than those which have been already adopted by my noble Friend, the Secretary of State; but I do not know what stronger measures it is possible for the Government to take, or what greater assistance can be afforded, under the present circumstances. The military force of the country has been considerably reinforced and augmented, and means have been taken to inform the magistrates, that every exertion would be made by the Government to maintain and support them in their efforts to preserve the public peace; but, my Lords, it is quite impossible to fill every part of the country with a military force. It is quite impossible to have a sufficient force in every place when danger may be apprehended, to put down any outbreak on the instant. All that can be done is, to use the three which is in our possession in the best manner for the purpose of suppressing violence, and affording protection from apprehended danger.—Subject at at end.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
On the order of the day for the third reading of the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill,
The Marquess of Conynghamcould not but express the deep regret which as an Irishman he felt at the course which their Lordships had pursued with regard to this Bill. England and Scotland had received a liberal measure of municipal reform, but their Lordships had declared that Irishmen were unfit to enjoy municipal privileges. Was that fair to Ireland at a moment when greater tranquillity prevailed there than had been known for years. A force of 12,000 or 13,000 was now stationed in that country, whereas formerly the number was about 25,000. He lamented extremely that amendments had been made which rendered the rejection of the bill elsewhere certain, and that their Lordships had not taken that opportunity of setting at rest for ever this long-discussed and much wished-for measure.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid, that if this long-discussed and much-wished-for measure were not set at rest, it was the fault of those who rejected it elsewhere. He had been one of those who concurred in the opinion that it was advisable to abolish the old corporations, and not for to create others—until the state of parties in that country should be such as to afford
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a suitable opportunity for introducing a system of municipal government in which all parties might share. He feared that that state of things did not at present exist; but it had been found impossible to adhere to that plan, not so much from the feeling which existed in Ireland as that which naturally prevailed in this country on that subject. Accordingly, the noble Duke and those who acted with him adopted the principle of granting new corporations to Ireland as soon as the Government had enabled it to be done with security to the Church by passing a Tithe Bill, and with advantage to the towns themselves, by passing a Poor-law. Both these measures had since passed; and their Lordships had now agreed to the present bill with those amendments which they thought necessary to render it as sale a measure as possible. The best way to do justice to Ireland was so to model the bills that came before them, that when they were carried into effect they might conduce to the preservation of life and property, and to the support and supremacy of the law.
The Marquess of Lansdownehad every reason to believe that their Lordships had introduced one amendment which would render it impossible for the other House in conformity with its usage, to pass that bill. He did not say that it was intended to have that effect; but it probably would, as their Lordships had not done everything in their power to render the measure palatable to the other House.
Lord Fitzgerald and Veseysaid, that it was quite consistent with the view which the noble Marquess and his Friends had taken to feel and tell their Lordships that they had not done all that they ought and might have done to reconcile the other House to this bill; but when they heard from the noble Marquess that one of the amendments which their Lordships had made in that bill, though not intended, was yet calculated to defeat that measure, because it interfered with the privileges of the other House, it was fitting that they who had supported it should state that their opinion on that subject was entirely different. The amendment to which the noble Marquess alluded was one which it had not been necessary for their Lordships to introduce into any of the former measures; for it referred to a provision which had been this Session for the first time introduced by the House of Commons

1205
into the Irish Municipal Reform Bill. Though the former bills had embodied all the wisdom of the Government—and had been put forward as all-sufficient, it had never been proposed until the present year to transfer to the town councils all the fiscal powers of the towns and counties of towns in Ireland, and to withhold them from the grand juries—a high, unimpeached, respected, and old constitutional body. Now for the first time that provision had been introduced; and they might, therefore, justly conclude that, on account of the jealousy which that House had exhibited of giving undue powers to the town councils, the House of Commons had been desirous of reconciling that House to the original bill by extending the powers which that House proposed to limit. He could not, however, find in that course any indication of a desire to meet the views of that House. But what was the interference with the privileges of the other House? The House of Commons proposed a new clause, which was to take the power of levying money from the grand juries, and vest it in the town councils; and their Lordships had rejected that clause; but were they for that to be told that they had interfered with the privileges of the other House? They had a right to reject a money bill and a money clause; and all they had done in this case was to leave the law as it stood. He had heard with astonishment that such an objection would be taken. Upon that subject he had referred to a noble and learned Lord, whose opinion, if He were to mention his name, would meet with the respect of the noble Marquess, as of every other Member of the House; and he had told him it was no interference with the privileges of the House of Commons. He knew that in various instances similar proceedings had taken place, when no objection was made, and when it was not necessary to find out a pretext whereon to hang an additional objection to the bill. When the noble Viscount (Melbourne) the other night objected to the various amendments made in that bill, and amongst others to one relating to the appointment of sheriffs, he thought that he was acting inconsistently with the course which he had taken on a former occasion; he thought that the amendment was precisely the same as a clause in the first bill which the noble Viscount had brought before that House
1206
on the subject; but, at that time he bowed to the assurance of the noble Viscount, that the first bill gave the appointment to the town councils, thinking the noble Viscount had a much better right to know his own bill than he had. However, he had since ascertained that the noble Viscount was incorrect in his recollection of what he himself had proposed. When that first Municipal Reform Bill was in the other House, a discussion arose, and an objection was made to reposing that trust of appointing the sheriffs in the town councils, whereupon an amendment was moved, or, at all events, admitted by the Government, which contained the very provision now introduced as an amendment into this bill, and forming, as the noble Viscount had said, one of his insuperable objections to the measure. The noble Viscount, upon introducing that former bill to their Lordships, had said—
"The 53rd clause gives to the Lord-lieutenant the power of appointing the sheriffs, who, in the English Bill, are to be appointed by the town councils; but it can hardly be necessary that I should explain to your Lordships how necessary it is that any function so intimately connected with the administration of justice, should in Ireland be confined to the Lord-lieutenant."
Such was the argument of the noble Viscount three years ago, such was the sentiment of the Government embodied in the bill, and yet on Friday evening their Lordships had heard that same noble Viscount state that very amendment, amongst others, as an insuperable objection to the bill, and as one reason why he thought it to be his duty to record his dissent. He had felt it to be due to those who had taken the same view of the amendment with himself, and adhered to it, to remind their Lordships of these circumstances.
Viscount Melbournesaid—the noble Lord, I believe, has stated very correctly what took place with regard to that former bill. The bill when it was first introduced gave the nomination to the town councils; but it was altered in the other House. Now, my Lords, the other night I did not say that this was an insuperable objection to the measure; I said it was a strong objection, but besides that I beg leave to remind your Lordships that I did most distinctly state that upon general principles I concurred in the proposition of an appointment by the Crown, but that, in

1207
consideration of the circumstances of that country, and in consequence of conversation which I had had with those who are intimate with that country, I did think it wise and prudent to guard that nomination as it is guarded by this bill, which was sent up by the House of Commons.
Viscount Gortwas sorry that with regard to this bill he differed from a great number of their Lordships. He admitted that the measure was deprived of its worst features by the amendments of their Lordships; but this great objection still remained, that it took from the Protestants of Ireland the corporations, which were entrusted to them centuries ago. He thought that the example of Birmingham, where it appeared that confusion and riot went hand in hand with the Radical Charter, ought to serve as a warning to them, and that they ought to avoid similar results in Ireland by refusing their consent to this bill.
The Bill read a third time and passed.

UNIFORM PENNY POSTAGE.
Lord Ashburton presented several petitions in favour of this bill.
Viscount Melbournerose to move the second reading of the Postage Duties Bill. Its provisions, he observed, were extremely clear and simple. They were for the purpose of fully investing the Treasury with powers which for the most part it already possessed, but none of which it would appear to have been given it for the purpose of so great an alteration as that now proposed. These powers were to increase and diminish the rates of postage, the power to reconstruct and new regulate the whole of the present system, and to take into consideration the subject of Parliamentary and official franking, and generally all the powers necessary to carry into effect that important measure of which their Lordships had heard so much. The general object of the measure was to establish an uniform penny postage. It was not decided at present whether this payment should be made in the first instance or not; but the principal feature was, that the rate should be an uniform rate of one penny for each letter tinder a certain weight. It was not necessary for him to point out how great would be the advantages, commercial and social, which would result from this change. These advantages were admitted by all who had expressed an
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opinion on the subject, and must, indeed, be at once obvious. If he were called upon to quote any opinion in favour of the change, he could not name a higher authority than the noble Lord opposite (Lord Ashburton), who had in his evidence upon the subject given his most unqualified approbation of the proposed alteration. That noble Lord had, indeed, pressed his opinion, that the present postage duties were one of the worst of our taxes. He did not go quite to this extent: he did not consider the postage duties either the worst, or among the most injurious of our taxes; but at the same time he quite agreed with the noble Lord in his general view of the subject. He perfectly agreed, that although all these advantages might not result—that the calculations that had been made might be exaggerated, and that greater effect might be anticipated than would really result, at the same time it was impossible not to be convinced that considerable advantage would follow—that great commercial advantages would be derived, and also much benefit would unquestionably result to the poorer classes of the community from the establishment of a cheap system of communication. There was another matter which was made manifest in the evidence as the result of a high charge for postage, the extraordinary contraband conveyance of letters. It had become necessary to make reductions in the rates of postage to the extent contemplated by this bill, in order to protect both the revenue and the morals of the people. For it must be recollected if only a small reduction were made, it would not affect the object in view; for while the modes of evasion had been organised and put into play, so that they might be resorted to with ease, it had become almost a habit, and persons for the sake of a very small profit would be induced to follow the contraband trade of conveying letters; and above all, when it was the most easy matter in the world to pursue it. He should therefore say that, so far as this plan was for the general benefit, and as also for the purpose of collecting the revenue, the reduction should be made to such an extent as to ensure the object of stopping the contraband trade. If this were done, he thought that there would be no question as to the advantages of the system. Then, as to the effects that it was likely to have—all nations, ever since the establishment of

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the postage of letters, had made it a source of revenue; and in this country a revenue had been collected in this way, as in all other countries, and generally speaking, when the finance minister wanted to get such a sum as 100,000 l. a-year more for the revenue, he would ask the House whether it had not been very much the custom to have resource to placing an additional penny on the postage of letters. He had often heard a right hon. Friend of his say, that letters would bear a little more postage, and unquestionably in this country they had been a prominent source of revenue. A paper had been laid on the table, on the motion of a noble Friend of his, giving a statement of the present state of the revenue, and if noble Lords considered either the gross or nett amount derived from postage, it would undoubtedly appear to be a very large proportion of revenue. It had been supposed by some persons, that if they reduced the charge of postage to the rate proposed, that such would be the increase in the number of letters, that the present amount of revenue would be almost made up, and very little loss of revenue would be sustained. On the other hand it was said, that when you adopted this plan you not only dealt with the net revenue but with the gross revenue, amounting to 2,400,000 l., and that it was probable that if you adopted the proposed plan, you would have such a deficiency in your revenue, that you would have to lay on a fresh tax to that amount to enable the business of the state to be carried on, These were the statements that were made on opposite sides by the supporters or opponents of the measure, and he must say that both would be found to be equally exaggerated. In the most sanguine statements of Mr. Hill that Gentleman had never calculated, that the number of letters conveyed by the post would be more than quintupled, and that therefore there would be a loss to the revenue of something less than 300,000 l. He felt, that he should be very sanguine, if he made a prediction, or pledged himself to the subject one way or the other, but as far as he was able to form an opinion from the calculations of those who were thought the best able to make a correct computation on the subject, he must say, that he did not think that there was sufficient means of forming anything like a near estimate on the sub-
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ject. That the reduction would lead to an increase of the number of letters there could be little doubt; but that there would be such an increase as would make up for the loss by the reduction, he would not take upon himself to state. It was on these grounds that Ministers called upon Parliament, on introducing this bill, to give a distinct and decided pledge, that if any deficiency of revenue should arise in consequence of the adoption of this plan, Parliament would make it good. In consequence of the papers moved for, their Lordships were in possession of the state of the revenue and expenditure of the country, including the revenue of the Post-office, and they were also in possession of a paper moved for by his noble Friend, giving an estimate by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of what he calculated would be the revenue of the future year. He believed, that previously such an estimate had only been made in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's annual statement, and that such a document had never before been laid on the table of that House of Parliament. For the last year, and, indeed, for the two last years, the income of the country had not been equal to its expenditure, and this had not arisen from any falling off in the revenue, but was owing to the great increase that had arisen in the public expenditure. This was not a satisfactory state of things; but when they were dealing with such an immense sum as the revenue of this country, amounting as it did to 48,000,000 l. a year, he did not think that either a surplus of 300,000 l. or 400,000 l., or a deficiency in the revenue of 300,000 l. or 400,000 l. was much a matter of triumph on the one hand, or should be a matter of such deep regret on the other, or that such consequences were likely to flow from either one circumstance or the other as some persons seemed to imagine. The amount of the revenue was too great—the sum was too large—the transactions of this country were too immense, and the influence was too extended, that a circumstance of this kind should make much impression, or that a cause so transitory should produce a permanent effect. They should recollect the state of the country—our extended manufactures—our vast commercial relations—its monetary system—the whole manner in which the trade of the country was conducted—the form of the trade and the extent to which it was

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carried, and the way in which it had gone on of late years, exposed to jerks on the one hand, and to changes on the other; prosperous at one time, and exposed to depression on the other, and repeatedly exposed to strong re-actions. Some persons imputed these changes and reactions to the conduct of those to whom the administration of affairs was entrusted for the time being, and asserted that such effects were the fault of the Government; but he thought that they were inherent to a great commercial community, and to the mighty and vastly extended state of society to which we belonged. He should be glad if they could render the state of their affairs in this country more equable, but he doubted whether it were possible to devise any system that would lead to such a result. He believed that the changes and alterations of what was called states of prosperity and adversity were inherent to the state of things, and to the state of society in which we were placed. To revert to the subject he was just alluding to—here we had an income unequal to the expenditure of the country, and it was impossible to contemplate the state of society in this country—to listen to the speeches made in both Houses of Parliament, and considering the disposition of Parliament and the country, to promote undertakings of all kinds, it was impossible to entertain any very sanguine hope that the expenditure of the country would be diminished; on the contrary, there was reason to believe that it would be increased. The Government also was constantly pressed to resort to measures and adopt proceedings which would necessarily be attended with a great increase of the expenditure. The noble Duke constantly pressed on the Government with arguments to which great weight undoubtedly ought to be attached, the present inadequacy of the establishments, both civil and military. The noble Lord opposite, also, had repeatedly pressed on their attention the state of affairs in Canada, and the operations which it would be necessary to undertake there. He confessed that it was not easy to refute the noble Lord when he pointed very significantly to the adoption of measures which were necessary for the pacification of the country, and which, if adopted, must call for a considerable outlay of the public money. Again, on referring to the proceedings of the other House, he found that the noble Lord the
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Member for Liverpool—not speaking merely from his own authority, which was not of small weight—not speaking merely as the representative in Parliament of the important town of Liverpool, but speaking for a large body of persons of great weight and influence in the country, had thought it to be his duty to give notice for the next Session that he should then propose that some public assistance should be given to the Church of England, and that further and full means of public worship and religious instruction should be provided, and that the establishment might be enabled to fulfil its high objects. Noble Lords connected with Scotland were again pressing for some assistance for extending the means of religious instruction; in connection with the Church of Scotland, he admitted that there was great force in the claim, and it was supported by no inconsiderable arguments. And in adverting to the sources of information which tell the public what passes in both the Houses of Parliament, he found that a right hon. Baronet, a person of the greatest weight and influence in the country, said a few days ago that he trusted the day was not distant when he should see in the centre of the metropolis a palace of the arts arise, that he should see in the most prominent spot a magnificent edifice erected, and a splendid establishment erected for the reception of works of art, and for the accommodation and delight of the people of this country, and for the encouragement of every species of art; thus securing for the amusement, the intellectual refinement, and the improvement of the taste of the country in the arts. There were, however, besides these, at least an hundred other schemes pressed on the Government, many of them very sound and reasonable, and all of them very plausible. Besides these, cases were continually being brought forward of captures and seizures, and acts of injustice committed during the war, or many years since, which the House of Commons listened to with great facility, and which they are ready to redress. This, then, was a state of things not favourable to public economy. With respect to what had been pressed on the Government by the noble Duke as regarded the increase of the military and naval establisments of the country, he would not deny the sound policy of considering the subject with the view of adopting proper measures. The

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first thing to consider, the first object that they should have in view, was the necessity of maintaining the integrity of the empire, without which they would be exposed to every peril and danger. With respect to the consideration of these questions, having connection with the religious instruction of the community, he admitted they were matters deserving the greatest possible attention; but at the same time it was necessary to consider whether they were practicable or not in the present state of public feeling, and whether, in endeavouring to do a great moral good, evils of greater extent and magnitude might not ensue. With regard to those matters having reference to taste, the arts, and all these objects, he could not help feeling that they should be very careful about these matters; and he should probably say, if he could address the other House, that he must beg them to look at the financial state of the country, and he would entreat each man, instead of looking only to his own peculiar project, to regard the state of the country. The arguments which had been used in support of these various plans and projects had been the cause of the ruin of many individuals. The argument was often used, was it not a shame that a great nation like this did not do this or that, but allowed itself to be surpassed, in certain respects, by states of much less power, or wealth, or influence? This was nothing but the argument that was used in the case of private individuals. A man was told by some of his relations or connections, "Oh! it belongs to the station of your family to maintain such an establishment—you must keep a pack of hounds because your father and grandfather did—you must have a herd of deer because your family have always had one—you must have such an equipage because your predecessors never before went to the races unless with such an equipage, and unless with so many followers." These were the arguments which had led to the ruin of many individuals; and he could not help feeling that the untimely attention to such observations had led more to the ruin of many states, both ancient and modern, than was generally supposed. He might be asked, then, in the present state of the revenue, with a tendency to the increase of the expenditure, how he could venture to tamper with so large a sum as that derivable from the Post-office
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revenue? He certainly felt the force of the objection; and his answer to this was that, in the first place—stating the case as plainly as possible—the very general feeling and general concurrence of all parties in favour of the plan, and there was such a general demand from all classes of the community for a measure of this nature, that it was a very difficult matter to withstand it. Again, it was generally admitted that it was an advantageous and beneficial measure; it was admitted that it was for a beneficial object and that a strong apprehension existed in favour of its utility. This was a matter of so much strength and force, that be believed himself justified in saying that it compelled those in another place, who acted with the noble Lord opposite, to do that which he believed they were most unwilling to do, namely, to make this an open question. He said this, as he knew that there were open questions on both sides. It was not usual to talk in Parliament of the opposition of the party. He believed that it was unconstitutional in Parliamentary language to suppose that any body of persons could be leagued together in Parliament in opposition to the Government of the country. This, then, was an open question with both parties; the parties, however, that did not support the Government, did not call it an open question; but they said it was no longer a party question, and Gentlemen, therefore, might vote and give their opinions in conformity with the wishes and feelings of their constituents. When, therefore, they found this measure to be a good measure, and was likely to be productive of great benefit to all classes—that it was demanded most extensively by petitioners—that persons of all parties and descriptions had loudly called for it, and that it was generally looked for with anxiety—and when they found that Parliament had pledged itself to make good the only evil that could arise from it, or could be felt from its adoption, namely, any deficiency in the revenue—he thought that it was safe to trust to this, to ask and take those powers to enable the Government to carry the measure into effect. These were the grounds upon which he proposed this bill, and he did so with much satisfaction, as be agreed in the opinions expressed by the noble Lord opposite, that it was a measure beneficial in itself, and that its ultimate effects would be greatly beneficial to the revenue. If a

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great increase in this part of the revenue should take place, they would not readily be able to trace it to this plan, as it might result from an increase in the general prosperity of the country. Even if they should be obliged to substitute some tax in lieu of this postage revenue, he thought that the change would be beneficial, as hardly any description of tax could press so heavily on the poorer classes as that on letters. If the plan did succeed, there would be the greatest possible benefit to the poorer classes, and any substitute that could be imposed would be less burdensome on the whole community. These were the grounds on which he proposed this bill, and he did so in the full reliance that the statement in the preamble of the bill would be fully redeemed, and that the country would not ask for a measure for which they were not prepared to pay the full price, or ask for a bill, and not be prepared to take the consequences of it. Under these circumstances, he begged to move the second reading of the Postage Duties Bill.
The Duke of Wellingtonwished that this bill had been such a measure as the noble Viscount seemed disposed to describe it. In point of fact, the Government was to have the whole subject and arrangement at its disposal, and to have the power of carrying the plan into execution in the way they thought best adapted for the purpose, without calling upon the House to come to any specific vote on the subject. Having given his full consideration to this subject, and to the arguments by which it had been supported by the noble Viscount, he felt bound to state that he had never addressed their Lordships with more anxiety and pain than he did on the present occasion; and he never felt more reluctance than he did now to give the vote which he should give on this question, and to advise the House as to the course which he thought they should follow. It was stated in the preamble of this bill, that it had for its object the establishment throughout the country of a uniform and low rate of postage. He admitted the force of the argument urged by the noble Viscount as to the expediency and, indeed, necessity of establishing an uniform and low rate of postage. The arguments in favour of it had been more than once stated in that House by his noble Friend near him, and by the noble Duke who had filled the
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office of Postmaster-general, and whom he did not see in his place. He admitted the great inconveniences that resulted from the present high duties of postage, tending, as they did to the contraband conveyance of letters, and to many inconveniences which must be obvious to all. The object, then, was to reduce the expense of postage, and to establish, in lieu of the present system, a low and uniform rate of postage. He imagined, that the power of the Government was sufficient to carry out such a system, although the powers had not been granted for such a purpose. But, with reference to the adoption of any particular plan, he was disposed to admit that that which was called Mr. Rowland Hill's plan was, if it was adopted exactly as was proposed, of all the plans, that which was most likely to be successful. He must say, that he was afraid, that the plan proposed would not be entirely successful in the first place, for he felt there was a great mistake in supposing that the reduced price of postage to one penny, to be paid on the delivery of the letter, would induce a great deal of literary correspondence. For some years he had had some knowledge of the advantages and operation of such a system in the army, and he could safely assure their Lordships that it was quite curious to observe the very small quantity of correspondence carried on by soldiers, notwithstanding that they had the utmost facilities afforded them for correspondence. In fact, they had only to pay one penny to the person who held the office of receiver of letters for the regiment, and the letter was, of course, despatched. The letters of soldiers, then, went almost free, and it was a remarkable instance or illustration of the present plan, and there was not so much correspondence carried on by the soldiers as might be anticipated; he, therefore, thought, that there would not be quite so much correspondence carried on with this penny postage as was anticipated. In one regiment, he recollected, and this was a Highland regiment of 1,000 men, the soldiers of which were generally supposed to be very strongly attached to their homes and families, he had positively ascertained, that in the course of six or seven months only sixty-three or sixty-four letters were written. This was a fact which showed that the people of this country would not be so ready to correspond if they had a cheap postage. In the ap-

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plication also of this plan to several country districts, where the post-office was was seven or eight miles, or even so much as ten or fifteen miles away from a man's house in the village in which he resided it would be almost half a day's work, or at least equivalent to half a day's work to a poor man, to take his letter to the post-office. A poor man, then, would not make a sacrifice of this kind, merely because the post-office only charged a penny for his letter. The plan would work very well in London, where there was a very large post-office establishment, where there was a constant delivery of letters in all parts of the town, at least twice or three times a day. But taking such a town as Manchester, or Leeds, or Liverpool, or towns containing a population of from 180,000 to 240,000 souls, all the persons must resort to the post-office, and this would lead to such confusion that it would be necessary to open other post-offices at different parts of these towns. The consequence would be a great increase of expense in this department of the post-office. These matters had not been taken into consideration in the documents on this subject which he had perused. He was, therefore, very much afraid that this scheme for a uniform and low rate of postage, and certainly that which was proposed by Mr. Hill, which in his opinion was the best scheme that had been devised, would be found to be attended with many heavier expences than had been supposed. With respect to the measure before the House, Mr. Hill's plan had been clearly indicated in the preamble of the bill, when it was stated that the postage on letters should be reduced to one uniform rate of a penny charged on every letter of a given weight. Whether, then, the plan of postage was to be by means of a stamp, or by the payment of the postage when the letter was sent or the letter received, nothing was said in the bill, and the principle that was laid down on the preamble seemed to be departed from in the details of it. He certainly felt it desirable, that there should be a low and uniform rate of postage, and was disposed to acquiesce in the bill conferring upon the Treasury the power of duly considering all the objections to this plan of Mr. Hill, to which he had already referred, and any other objections which might be urged against it, and in ultimately adopting such measures as they might think proper, with
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a view of insuring the people the best means of sending and receiving letters by the post. But when first this subject was mentioned in that House, the noble Viscount certainly stated, that the first object to be considered, was the security of the revenue. The same language had, he understood, been held in the other House. The noble Viscount, indeed, declared, that he would not adopt the plan at all, unless the security of the revenue were duly provided for. There was, however, now under the present measure, no security whatever for the revenue. So far from that being the case, the noble Viscount, with great candour, admitted, that he could not place any confidence whatever in the calculations that had been made with reference to the probable operation of the plan, either on the one side or the other. The truth was, that it was impossible for the noble Viscount to know anything about the matter; and, therefore, he satisfied himself with the guarantee contained in the preamble of this Act of Parliament. But, although the preamble stated, that it was expedient something should be done towards guaranteeing any deficiency in the revenue, the enacting part of the bill did not carry that statement into effect. There was in the preamble a guarantee, but nothing more—nothing to indicate what it was to be, or how long it was to last. Anything more obscure in legislation there could not possibly be. To a guarantee there ought to be two parties; but with this guarantee their Lordships' House had nothing to do, except to pass the bill; nor had the Sovereign, except to give the royal assent to it. To whom, then, was the guarantee given? Was it given to the public? Was it given to the stock holder? To whom was it given? Why, it was no guarantee at all; and more especially was it not so, when they considered the circumstances under which it had been given. It was reported that hon. Gentlemen—supporters of the noble Viscount's Government in the other House of Parliament—heads of parties, because at one time they gave notice, that they, with their friends, would attend and support the Government proposition, and at another time, that they would oppose some part of the plan—had disagreed among themselves on essential parts of the proposed measure; that very few of them had agreed as to this guarantee, or as to the course that should be taken, if the mea-

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sure were adopted. What, then, was the meaning and effect of the introduction of that supposed guarantee in the preamble? Why, it really meant nothing at all—was of no more value than the paper on which it appeared. If noble Lords and hon. Gentlemen who had proposed this guarantee had come down to Parliament, and expressed a disposition to take into consideration the state of the finances of the country, and those various demands existing for different branches of the public service, which had been so ably detailed by the noble Viscount, if they had called the attention of Parliament to the state of the unfunded debt—to the state of the commerce of the country, and of the monetary system at present existing, and had admitted that the income of the country was not equal to its expenditure, that they had no means of going on, except by increasing the unfunded debt; and if they had announced their intention of proposing to take the usual course of proceeding, in order to apply a remedy to this state of things (a subject to which he would afterwards advert), then those noble Lords and hon. Gentlemen in another place would have acquired some little degree of confidence as regarded the future prospects of the finances of the country, and they might, notwithstanding, have called with the more reason for a guarantee against any deficiency of revenue that might result from this measure. In reference to the state of the revenue, he would beg, for a few moments, to draw their attention to a paper which he held in his hand, stating the estimated revenue and expenditure of the country for the year ending April 1840. It appeared that the estimate of the revenue for that period was 48,128,900 l., while the estimate of expenditure was 47,988,554 l. On the face of the paper it appeared that there was also 1,000,000 l. to be added for expenditure in Canada; but when it appeared that 500,000 l. of that had already been incurred, he confessed that he thought 1,000,000 l. would be a very low estimate of the expenditure under that head. He could not help reflecting that we had had since November or December, 1837, nearer 40,000 than 30,000 men under arms in Canada. He knew what the cost of all this was, and he was afraid that2,000,000 l., if carried to that account, would by no means pay the expense, even supposing the present state of things to close in the
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month of April 1840, which, he confessed, he for one did not think very probable. Adding, however, 1,000,000 l. in the estimate to the existing deficiency, it must cause an increase to that amount in the unfunded debt. But it was reasonable to assume that the Post-office revenue had been included in this estimate of 48,128,900 l. If that revenue (1,585,000 l.) were deducted from the other amount, there would remain only 46,543,900 l, The estimated expenditure of 1840 was, as he had said, 47,988,550 l. So that, upon this estimate of the revenue, there would be in April, 1840, including the 1,000,000 l. for Canada, a deficiency of 2,445,050 l. Add to this amount 1,428,534 l. for the deficiency of 1838, and 430,335 l. for the deficiency of 1839, and the total deficiency up to April, 1840, would be 4,303,919 l. There was at present a very large unfunded debt in circulation, one which was much larger than the market could bear, for the interest had fallen and was still falling. The amount of Exchequer Bills in circulation had already been found too large for the market. Their Lordships must be aware of the state of the commerce of the country, and the condition of the monetary system altogether; and it could not but be supposed that it would be a great convenience, not only to the Government, but to the public at large, if at this moment a large amount of these Exchequer Bills were taken out of the market by funding them, and thus a means provided of making up by the year 1840 for some part of that deficiency, which it was quite clear must exist at that time. But this was not the extent of the deficiency that would exist in 1840. An addition to the army had been proposed, the expense of which it was said would be 75,000 l. It was possible, that up to the end of the financial year, the expense might be no more than that sum, but by the month of August 1840, it would be more than double the amount. There were other sources of prospective expense, arising out of the steps necessary to be taken at Birmingham; the constabulary force about to be formed in the country, of which the public were to pay part of the expense, besides other expenses; so that, on the whole, the Government and the country could not but look forward to a very large deficiency in the month of April 1840. Now, if the Government had thought proper to propose to the other House of Parliament

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according to the course adopted at different times by former Chancellors of the Exchequer, to fund Exchequer Bills to the amount of 5 or 6,000,000 l. sterling, and had provided the means of paying the interest of the debt thus funded, it would have been said, that there certainly was no novelty in their mode of proceeding, but that they had at length taken the course that was necessary, in order to provide for the increase in the public expenditure, and that they had thereby relieved the public and themselves from great inconvenience. He could assure the noble Viscount, and his colleagues, that bad they taken that course, they would have given every man who reflected at all on the situation of our affairs, much more satisfaction than could possibly be derived from the course they had taken in reference to the public burthens, in connection with the bill now on the table. But, my Lords, continued the noble Duke, notwithstanding I feel so little confidence in this measure, and notwithstanding that I must continue to lament that it should ever have been adopted, when all the circumstances are considered, I, nevertheless, earnestly recommend you to pass it. It is a measure which has been most anxiously looked for by the country; at the same time, that it is one on which there has been much doubt, and on which it must be confessed, there is increasing doubt; but your Lordships should bear in mind, that there is not one clause in this bill upon which you can make an amendment, or on which you can give a vote, except in the negative or the affirmative, without committing a breach of those conventional rules which have been established for the conduct of the business between you and the House of Commons. On the other hand, my Lords, suppose you were to reject this bill; the Government, supported by the House of Commons, would have the power to destroy the whole revenue of the Post-office; so that all the evil which this bill could do to the revenue, and which it is your object to save, might still be done; and as, at the same time, the reform of the Post-office administration, which it is the object of this bill to effect, and which is desired should be carried into execution, must altogether lie over, unless you agree to some such measure as this. I shall, although with great reluctance, vote for the bill, and I earnestly recommend you to do likewise.
The Earl of Riponconsidered the bill objectionable in the highest degree; not only as regarded the mode in which it was proposed to carry out its object, but also on account of the circumstances of the time at which it was introduced. Nothing but the high respect which he entertained for his noble Friend who had just sat clown, could induce him to vote for the second reading. Under these circumr stances the House would, perhaps, excuse him if he stated to them the grounds on which he was prepared to call this experiment rash and heedless. The measure itself was a very clumsy contrivance; yet it was one involving most extensive consequences, and extremely doubtful as regarded particular results; and surely it was one that, if adopted by the legislature, should have been so adopted upon full consideration of a bill combining both principle and detail. But this bill, though it professed to announce a principle in the preamble, did not proceed to carry out that principle by enactments—it gave no explanation in detail why 1,600,000 l. per annum was to be given up without any condition. Nor did the bill bind the Treasury at all. It was quite competent to the Treasury to reduce the postage to 2d. only, or to make any other arrangement they might think fit. Why were their Lordships thus called upon at this period of the Session to pass a bill, when no mortal being had at that moment the remotest conception of how it was to be carried into execution. Why, then, was the bill thus forced through Parliament? The real cause was that external pressure to which the noble Viscount had alluded, while his countenance showed that he shared those apprehensions which he so eloquently described. The real difficulty in connection with the measure was the state of the revenue at the moment when Parliament was called upon to sanction an experiment so dangerous. It might be very true, for aught he knew, that in process of time, the measure might produce a considerable part if not the whole of the present net revenue of the Post-office. But at the same time, it was impossible to read the papers on their Lordship's table on this subject without seeing, as the noble Viscount had, with great candour—a candour which he hoped his friends would appreciate—admitted, how very vague, although ingenious, the calculations were on which the supposed success

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of the measure was to rest. Those calculations amounted to this:—that unless five times the number of letters that now passed through the Post-office were hereafter received, the present revenue would not be kept up. If the country had a surplus on which they could rely, or if indeed there was not a deficiency such as at, present unhappily existed, and from which there was no escape, he would raise no objection to running the risk of this loss. But what he feared was that the operation of the plan would lead to increase a danger to which we were now exposed, an habitual deficiency of revenue in time of peace. In proof of the danger he would refer to the amount of the revenue and expenditure for the years 1836, 1837, 1838, and 1839, and also to the estimates for 1840. The estimate of the revenue, taken by itself he considered by no means unfavourable. On the contrary, he reverted with pleasure to the fact that the revenue had not been in a decreasing condition, taking the whole five years into account. The revenue for 1836 was 45,893,369 l. The actual receipt for 1839 was 48,128,000 l. showing an increase of 1,748,000. Any slight defalcation or temporary variation in the revenue would, however, have given rise to no uneasiness in his mind; it was the expenditure that alarmed him. Since 1836 it had been going on increasing, and the circumstances of the country were such, that any man with two eyes in his head must see that any reduction whatever in the amount of expenditure was impossible, and that a progressive increase could not be avoided. The estimated expenditure for 1840 was 48,988,000 l. The actual expenditure for 1836 was 45,030,000 l. showing an increase (which had been gradually growing up) of 3,985,000 l. The best evidence that the expenditure must increase was, that since the last estimate had been presented to Parliament, Government had come down and called for an additional sum of 75,000 l. to defray the charges of more troops. This raised the increased expenditure to 4,060,000 l. Now look at the charges for the funded debt. For 1836 the charge for the funded debt, including the temporary annuities, and the interest on exchequer bills, was 28,784,000 l. The estimated charge for 1840 was 29,443,000 l. This exhibited an increase of 659,000 l.; and this was the result of what were called three years of profound peace, though he
1224
must say matters did not look much like peace at the present moment. He was by no means finding fault on account of this excess of charge. He was aware that it had arisen out of the grant of twenty millions for the emancipation of the slaves —a measure which he had supported as a wise application of the money of the country. The expenses so incurred must be paid, and if they were desirous of resorting to a cheese-paring, save-all economy, where could they economise? Was it likely that it could be done in the naval, military, or ordnance estimates? The noble Viscount himself had told them they were not in a condition to forego any part of that expenditure. What had been the increase during the last four years? There had been no less than 2,637,000 l. additional charge for those great items of expenditure during those years. He did not see any prospect of getting rid of that expense, or of avoiding an increased expense. What was their situation both at home and abroad? The proposition of the noble Lord the secretary for the Home Department, for raising an additional military force, and the necessity which he described as existing at home for that addition, was not of such a nature that they could flatter themselves that by the mere raising of 5,000 more troops, all the causes of that demand for more military force would pass away. Abroad they were engaged in one of the most gigantic operations that had ever been undertaken in India. They were carrying on a war for an object of doubtful policy, hundreds of miles from their frontier, without any basis for their operations, except the river Indus, behind which were two countries, the one governed by a man of great talent, but in a very feeble state of health, and not deriving his authority in regular hereditary succession; the other governed by a man bound to grant military right of traversing his territory, but who could shut them out to-morrow, and if the necessity of the case arose, would not scruple to do so, for those Indian potentates were not greatly troubled with scruples. Below them were the natives of Scinde, who were notoriously. hostile to us, and who had not permitted us to traverse their territory to make an attack upon Affghanistan. It was very likely we might succeed in establishing Shah Soojah upon the throne, and drive Dost Mahommed to seek a precarious subsistence in another country, but the diffi-

1225
culties would only begin when that success was complete. It did not appear to him that they could economise by reducing the amount of their naval and military forces. But was this the only source of uneasiness? What was the state of Persia? Were they not, in effect, at war with that country? They were told in the beginning of the Session, that a state of things had arisen there which it was hoped would pass away, and that amicable relations would be re-established. But what was the fact? The Persian ambassador had been dismissed, and the two countries were at war, and he had no difficulty in saying that, in his humble judgment, there had been a great degree of negligence on the part of the Government, and a series of consecutive blunders on the part of Sir John M'Neil, who placed himself in such a position with regard to Persia, that he destroyed the original basis of fidelity and amity, and good understanding that prevailed, and threw Persia into the arms of Russia. Could they, looking at these circumstances, say that it was proper to reduce their naval or military establishments? They were also engaged in increasing their distant possessions, in establishing new colonies in New Zealand, and in New South Wales. They had taken upon themselves, also, to become the possessors of a fortress on the Red Sea, in an extraordinary manner, which he would not describe, but which was described in the papers that hail been laid before the House. And again, how did they stand with regard to Canada? The noble 'Viscount had himself admitted, and he was the best judge, that there was no reason to expect a decrease of expense in this quarter. There was also the north-eastern boundary question, which might come before them at any moment, and which was a most complicated question. He mentioned these facts, to show that there was no reason to suppose that the state of the expenditure would admit of any material diminution. But since the last estimates were made, another circumstance had come to their knowledge, which was intimately connected with this subject. Information had reached this country of the fact of the Chinese government having stopped the trade in tea. That may to some appear a matter which, except in a commercial point of view, is of no immediate interest, but, in his opinion, it was a very serious question indeed, If our resi-
1226
dent there had engaged to pay 2,000,000 l., he did not think the nation ought to pay it, but still they might be pressed, and by that external pressure they might be pushed very far. At all events, if the Chinese government took effectual steps to prevent our supplying the people of China with opium, the only possible way in which we could pay for the immense quantity of tea that we required, would be by silver money. The amount of bullion in this country, and the state of the money market, ought to make every one pause a little in the conclusion they would come to upon this subject. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to find silver money, annually for this purpose, so that this must lead to a deficiency in the importation of tea, and instead of having 40,000,000 of pounds brought in, and paying duty, the amount would tall off to a great extent, and there was danger of a future diminution of revenue. This was a matter of very serious consideration. He felt so strongly the consequences that were likely to arise on this subject, that he hardly knew by what process he could justify himself if he did not oppose this bill. He thought that the time was most ill-suited for such an experiment. If it were postponed till next year, Government might have an opportunity of carefully considering every part of the proposition, of examining all its details, and of being prepared to state how the expected deficiency, to supply which they were called upon to pledge themselves, was to be made up. He must say, that he thought the pledge required was a perfect absurdity. Had the Government themselves any notion as to how they proposed to make up the deficiency that was expected to occur? Any man who looked at the state of taxation, would find it absolutely impossible to put his finger on a single item in the list of taxed articles on which he could venture to propose to Parliament with the slightest chance of success, an additional duty. As to the customs, they had been engaged in reducing duties, in order that the manufacturer might purchase the raw material at the cheapest rate. If they imposed a new tax upon articles of luxury, they would be acting contrary to the principle they had lately been acting upon, of reducing duties, in order to extend consumption. If they imposed a tax upon the produce of the manufacturers of other countries, they would be violating

1227
the principle they had strained every nerve to establish for the last few years, namely, that with respect to foreign articles of manufacture, there should be nothing like a prohibitory duty. They could not have recourse to an increase of the assessed taxes; they could not call upon Parliament to renew the house-tax, or to add fifty per cent. to the window-tax; they could not reimpose upon the poor cottager the very taxes which they took off ten or twelve years ago upon the ground of their hardship. The only mode of supplying the deficiency they could come to, must be a property tax, and, recollecting all that had passed on this subject, he was not disposed, for the sake of this experiment, to again have recourse to it. On what article, then, was it possible to impose a tax of 1,500,000 l.? He believed it absolutely impossible, and therefore he should be very glad if the question were not pressed at present. He concurred in thinking that the reduction would be a good measure in itself, he quite concurred in thinking that the Post-office revenue ought not to be raised with a mere view to revenue, but they had got involved in a different policy, and he thought that by trying to get out of it in too hasty a manner, they might endanger the revenue of the country.
Lord Broughamsaid, that if any one had come into the House when his noble Friend (the Earl of Ripon) was speaking, he would have supposed that the last thing under discussion was the particular question before the House. His noble Friend had undoubtedly made a most excellent speech: he had shown a perfect knowledge of the state of the war in India, of the character of Runjeet Singh, and Dost Mahommed, and Shah Soojah; he had, in fact, made a military speech, and in the conclusions he had drawn, he (Lord Brougham) was very much disposed to agree with him: but his noble Friend must forgive him for saying that if there was any one subject left untouched by him it was the Post-office question—except, indeed, the Egyptian question. [The Earl of Ripon said, he forgot that.] He thought his noble Friend had forgotten it, for while his noble Friend was speaking, he had said to a noble Friend near him, that his noble Friend should not omit the Egyptian and the Poor-law questions. He would not, however, deny their connection with a general view of
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finance, as every question which his noble Friend brought forward, necessarily entailed a loss of revenue, and no doubt it was with that view they were brought forward. He could not at all agree with his noble Friend in thinking that the noble Viscount had been too candid, or that he took a desponding view in the statements he had made. He thought the noble Viscount bad done his duty by the office which he held, by their Lordships, and by this measure, in making the statement he had made; for, while he gave powerfully and distinctly the reasons which recommended this measure to his patronage and support, he also stated, as was his bounded duty—standing in the situation he held as head of the finance of this country—to their Lordships and the country what he expected to be the consequences of this measure. It would have been most improper, most imprudent, and most unjustifiable in the noble Viscount if he had concealed those facts of the case, because, for aught he knew, he might be obliged another Session to come to that House and call upon them to make up the deficiency which he now contemplated. But if, instead of contemplating and prophecying that deficiency, the noble Viscount were only to take the fair side of the question—only to show them one side of the picture, when the noble Viscount came before them next year, the public would say the measure had been a complete failure, instead of a benefit, and had also injured the revenue. The noble Viscount was compelled to give both sides of the account, and he thought the noble Viscount had fairly, and only fairly, stated that upon the balance of the two sides he was induced to give this bill his support. He had more confidence in the noble Viscount when he saw him take that calm, rational, deliberate view of the question; it had given him more confidence, and it would give the country more confidence. He for one thought that the arguments preponderated quite as much in favour of this measure as did the noble Viscount. He had presented numberless petitions from various parts of the country, from public bodies, corporations, magistrates, guardians of the poor, from persons in all stations, in favour of this measure, but especially from the mercantile interest, and from another class of persons of whom he was himself an humble member and coadjutor, namely, those who regarded as

1229
a paramount object the education and the moral advancement of the people. From these petitions, coming from persons who had fully investigated the subject, he thought he was justified in giving his sanction to the bringing in of this great and useful measure. He must, however, deny some of the statements that had been made. The noble Earl who had just sat down had calculated the total loss to the revenue at 1,500,000 l. His noble Friend had argued that they were putting in jeopardy this large amount of revenue; but the probable loss upon this 1,500,000 l. would be 200,000 l., or about one-seventh part of what he stated to be put in jeopardy. Why, the noble Earl might as well say that they were putting in jeopardy 48,000,000 l., or the total revenue of the country, because one portion of it, 200,000 l. was likely to be lost; and it would sound much better to say that they were putting the whole revenue of the country in jeopardy. The noble Duke said, that extravagant calculations had been made of the increase in the number of letters to be sent by post, and he gave a remarkable instance, which was, of course, quite certain, that a regiment of 1,000 men, in six months only sent sixty-five letters by post. He had heard of similar facts; but he had two answers to this point. In the first place, soldiers, if the might use the expression with all possible respect for the military character, were not letter-writing animals. They were not naturally writers of letters. They fought, paraded, and obeyed orders very naturally, habit made it a second nature; but they were not in the constant habit of taking up a pen and getting a sheet of paper and writing a letter. They did not correspond upon military subjects; it might not always be permitted, and indeed, they did not hold much correspondence upon any subjects, except indeed upon amatory subjects, and then not so much with persons at a distance as by word of mouth. But this argument proved too much, it proved that this regiment wrote no letters at all. Only one man in twenty-five ever wrote, and those who wrote at all, would, in all probability, write two or three letters; and as only sixty out of 1,000 wrote letters, it followed that about twenty-four out of twenty-five did not write at all. It proved no more than that the men could not write at all, as if they were horses or other animals, This,
1230
however, was not the case with the army generally, for he had a document in his hand which proved how much a penny postage tended to make people write who naturally did not write. It was a singular fact that in February, 1838, the number of military letters that went through the General Post-office in London was 2,410, whilst the total number of letters was 188,000, so that one eightieth part of the whole number of letters were written by soldiers, who naturally were not letter-writers, but who were tempted to correspond by the extremely low rate of postage. There were other facts of the same sort, and he would adduce the case of the Post-office revenue of France in support of a cheap postage. Whilst the carriage of our letters cost one-thousandth part of the sum charged, those of France cost one five-hundredth. The average charge for letters in France was four, and in this country it was eight. In France the net Post-office revenue was 35½millions of francs, or rather more than 1¼ million sterling. This was a very large Post-office revenue, considering how much less of a mercantile community they were. But there was another circumstance very remarkable. While our Post-office during twenty years bad been stationary, the revenue of the French Post-office had increased not less than eighty per cent. It could not be said that there were any circumstances connected with France to make their correspondence extend so rapidly. Had they not improved in this country in every respect? Had not education so in. creased, that the number of schools had been considerably more than doubled? Had not wealth, business, population increased. The population here had increased at the rate of one and a half per cent. per annum, or thirty per cent. in twenty years whilst the number of letters sent by the Post-office had not increased one fraction. But besides the evident advantages of a reduced rate of postage, their Lordships should consider that the effect of a high rate of postage was to increase the contraband trade in letters. The consumer (as he might call the correspondent) either gives over the consumption which is not wanted, or he consumes without payment, which was as little to be desired. On these grounds, the reduction of the rate of postage was desirable. He could cite many instances of actual experiments, in which the reduction of the rate of post

1231
age had been not only not productive of loss, but had actually caused considerable gain to the revenue. In Dublin a reduction made in the postage from twopence to a penny was calculated to create a loss of 20,000 l. in 100,000 l.; but so far from that, it had produced a gain of 10,000 l. in the 100,000 l. A similar reduction in Edinburgh to a penny rate, had caused no less, and was at present beginning to produce an increase. In fact people did not care about a penny rate. The Penny Magazine, with which he in common with many of their Lordships was connected, sold in one week 220,000, but he had no doubt that if raised one halfpenny in price, the sale would fall off one half. An instance of this kind took place in the sale of the Spectator, (Addison's paper,) to which the addition of a halfpenny in price caused an immense fall in the circulation. He had no doubt that the same rule would apply to the reduction proposed in the bill before their Lordships, and that here as in most cases relating to revenue, the lowering of the tax would increase the income. When he considered the increased population, the increased wealth, and increased intelligence of the country, any fears which he might have entertained of any diminution of the revenue by the proposed reduction were brought into a very narrow compass. As to the present state of our finances, he could not join in the view taken by the noble Duke or the noble Earl. The noble Duke objected that the Canadas cost us 500,000 l. one year, and that next they might cost us a million or two millions. He should consider them dear at the price, and if they should continue to advance in cost to us in this way, he thought the most stubborn believer in their value would soon be convinced of the folly of keeping up such distant colonies, and at such a cost. He could not concur in the objection of the noble Earl (of Ripon) that this measure should be delayed to next year. To whatever year it was postponed, it could not be brought on without the exercise of great discretion. There would be difficulties attending the matter at all times, and he could not but congratulate the noble Viscount. (Melbourne) on the candid and manly manner in which he had looked those difficulties in the face.
Lord Ashburtonfelt it to be his duty to offer a few observations to their Lordships on this important subject. The discussion
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of that evening had naturally divided itself into two heads. The first was with respect to the legal question as to making this great reduction in postage; and the next was as to the general state of the finances of the country, where so large a sum was at stake. He wished that he could persuade himself that there was as little risk involved in this question as had been intimated by his noble and learned Friend who had just sat down. The cases which his noble Friend had cited of reduction in the revenue did not appear to him (Lord Ashburton) to be analogous; the reduction in the present case being of an extraordinary nature, as it was proposed to sink from an average of 6d. to an uniform rate of 1d. per letter. Their Lordships would bear in mind that this was not to be considered merely as a reduction of duty, but that here was a department costing a large sum for the necessary discharge of its functions. His noble and learned Friend was a little mistaken as to the proportion between the income derived from this establishment and the cost of conveying the letters. The cost of conveyance was 700,000 l. The gross income was 2,300,000 l. The net income was therefore 1,600,000 l. Mr. Hill admitted that the additional expense to be incurred by the adoption of his system would be from 200,000 l. to 300,000 l. Adding this to 700,000 l., the cost of conveyance under the new system would amount to a million of money. This amount must be made up out of several pence before they could touch one farthing of the present income of 1,600,000 l. He could not help thinking it altogether a matter of much uncertainty. There could be no doubt that the country at large would immediately derive a great benefit; the consumption of paper would be increased very considerably. It appeared by all the evidence, most probable that the number of letters written would be at least doubled. Of the great benefits which would arise from similar change in their Post-office system he had always been convinced. From the first time when a petition relating to this subject had been laid on their Lordships' table, it had been his decisive opinion, that to reduce the taxes upon the conveyance of letters would be in every respect important, qualifying the people to act their part in the reconstruction of their institutions, and enabling them to partake of the rational enjoyments of civilization,

1233
It appeared to him that a tax upon communication between distant parties was of all taxes the most objectionable. The position in life of Members of Parliament rendered them, perhaps, more indifferent as to any change of the proposed nature, than most other men would be; and their privilege of sending and receiving letters free of charge made them perhaps a little less sensitive than they might otherwise be to the wants and feelings of that class which was just removed from poverty. He had latterly read in the book of a traveller in Canada a description of an interesting scene. The writer had seen emigrants going to the Post-office, and finding letters posted in the windows from their relatives at home, at which they gazed with longing eyes, not having the means to release them. These were our own people. The question whether a man could afford to write or receive a letter interfered more generally than might be suspected with the best social affections. It manifestly interfered to a very large extent with the communications of the literary and scientific class, a class not usually overburdened with prosperity. No one could dispute the advantages which must attend the communication of thought from man to man. If they looked again to the more substantial interests of the community, it would not be doubted that in all the different projects of commerce arising from variety of communication, men must want both to transmit and to receive a variety of letters. A number of letters might be written from which nothing would flow; but one at last was written, and followed by a business transaction of the utmost importance, Now, if they made that communication so dear that it could not conveniently take place, and if men engaged in business were precluded from that free discussion which was necessary to the successful transaction of their affairs, business must necessarily become crippled and contracted and many excellent speculations must remain dormant, in consequence of deficient information. In all respects he held it to be the most injudicious thing to be devised in any country to establish high rates of postage. It was well known that in this metropolis every thing was now to be seen for a shilling. Add an extra sixpence, and the people would not go. They could not say how this notion fixed itself in men's minds; but so it was. And although at one time He was of opinion that the uni-
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form charge of postage should be 2d., yet he found the mass of evidence so strongly in favour of 1d., that he concluded her Majesty's Ministers to be quite right in coming down to the uniform rate of 1d. He thought, however, that this subject had been quite long enough before Parliament to have had a trial of it six months ago. It was no new matter; petitions hail been pouring in for a very considerable period. He readily admitted that it could only be carried into execution by giving large discretionary powers to the Government; and such, in fact, was the whole amount of the bill. A very important subject had been introduced incidentally into this discussion. Although they left to the other House the power of originating money-bills and of voting the supplies, it was undoubtedly not only the privilege, but the duty, of their Lordships' House to watch over the state of the finances, and more particularly over the maintainance of the public faith and credit of the country. The great difficulty of the present measure was, that at best it was a doubtful experiment. For his part, he should be agreeably disappointed if, out of the 1,600,000 l. of revenue derived from this source at present, there remained after the change 500,000 l. And here he must state his conviction, that Parliament had greatly neglected its duties to the country in allowing the finances to get into their present state. Assuredly, they should at least put their House in order before they began to make their new experiment, and be quite sure that their income would equal their expenditure, setting aside any loss that might arise from the adoption of this scheme. The sacrifice of an income of 1,600,000 l. with an admitted clear deficiency of one full million, did seem to be a recklessness of duty on the part of Parliament, which must very much shock the feelings of the sober and sensible portion of the community. He could not help thinking, that there were some very fallacious views put forth in the estimates for the present year. He thought that the admitted 1,000,000 l. of deficient revenue was understated. The expenditure of the army in 1838 was 6,500,000 l., in 1830 it was 7,200,000 l. Notwithstanding this advance, the estimate of the army expenditure for the current year was put back to the former sum of 6,500,000 l. The answer would be, that a great portion of the army ex-

1235
penditure of last year was incurred for Canada. Now, in the ordnance estimates there appeared an increase from 1,380,000 l. to 1,730,000 l., and in the navy from 4,600,000 l. to 5,200,000 l. It was natural to infer, that the increase in the army estimates should be at least as great as in either of those two other departments, and that it should particularly correspond with the ordnance. When this estimate was given to them to ground their judgments upon it as to the expenditure of the current year, it appeared to him to be unfairly put for the purpose of masking the great deficiency in the year's revenue. The result of the estimates was stated to be a surplus of 139,000 l., and a note was appended; "probably a million for Canada." The surplus of 139,000 l. completely disappeared since the additional 5,000 troops had been asked for. The noble and learned Lord was, he feared, quite right in saying that Canada would still continue to involve this country in a heavy expense. As long as they held Canada they would have abundance of sympathisers. It was quite clear that nothing but a large force and heavy expenditure could maintain those colonies. It was not during the present year alone that the financial state of this country was pregnant with alarm. Last year there was a deficiency of 400,000 l.; the year before of 1,400,000 l. It became a Government, as fair dealers, and as the guardians of the interests of the country, to state a decided deficiency in the revenue whenever it arose. During the period of his sitting in the other House of Parliament he had constantly protested against their financial system. Instead of establishing a sinking fund, they had pursued the system of borrowing with one hand and paying with the other—a system which amounted to utter delusion. They had now had a quarter of a century of peace—and and no progress whatever had been made towards discharging the debt. How different had it been both in France and America. The Republicans of North America possessed much acuteness in matters of this description. By means of a sinking fund they had paid off every farthing of their debt. The French maintained a very considerable sinking fund, and their debt was every year becoming reduced in amount. This country alone retained what he must term a profligate
1236
system of financial administration. An utter want of resolution had been exhibited on the part of the Government, in which the people of this country would not have concurred, had the question been fairly put to them. No portion whatever of the principal due had been liquidated. They had paid off only a portion of the interest. After twenty-five years of peace, they remained in such a state that they might well be accused of want of principle, having done nothing either during peace or war towards the paying off this enormous debt. The only honest course of procedure was an alteration during peace and war—equalizing the expenses over the whole time of the war, and establishing a sinking fund, in time of peace, to pay off the expenses of the war. The noble Earl opposite, who had served her Majesty in a diplomatic character with so much distinction to himself in Spain, had expressed his regret that this country did not attend sufficiently to foreign affairs. That might be the case in the present day, but certainly in other times this nation had attended a little too much to them; at all events, he was sure that the best mode of attending to them was to put the finances of the country in such a situation as would give it real and substantial power abroad, for all the army and all the ships which lay in ordinary at Portsmouth or Plymouth were worth but little if the Bank was in confusion, and the finances of the country were embarrassed. He trusted that in a question like that now before the House, he should not be considered as having improperly introduced these matters of finance. On the immediate subject before the House he had but little further to say. Something bad fallen from the noble Viscount opposite, which had led him to suppose that he was adverse to a system of prepayment. Now, it had always struck him that the system of prepayment formed the most essential part of the plan; he did not see how the scheme could be executed with effect and economy without it, There had been presented to this and the other House of Parliament petitions from stationers and paper-makers in the country, showing that they laboured under an apprehension that the plan would give a monopoly of paper-making to the extent of the covers that would be required; he, however apprehended that in those fears they were

1237
much mistaken, but it occurred to him that by a stamp to be affixed or stuck upon the letter would answer every purpose, and remove the objections of those parties to the measure. As to the plan generally, he should certainly watch its execution with great anxiety, and with a thorough conviction that by this measure the Legislature was conferring on the country, a very essential benefit. He must say that the only drawback upon it was that formidable piece of mischief, its operation on the revenue; but he trusted if that proved the case, when the time came, the other House of Parliament would be ready, not to invent excuses, such as saying, "Let us wait another year—the experiment has not yet been fairly tried," and using all that description of vague argument, but would be ready to consider that its honour was pledged at once to make up the deficiency, and that the people, when a new tax was put on them, would remember that they had derived the benefits and advantages of this measure.
Earl Manversobjected conscientiously to the measure now before the House. In the present state of the finances it was a most dangerous experiment.
The Earl of Lichfieldwas anxious to say a few words on this subject, because it had gone forth to the public, and been much commented upon, that he was opposed to the present proposition; it was, therefore, proper that he should endeavour to remove that impression, and to show that, with perfect consistency with all that he had said or done, he could give a vote for the proposal of his noble Friend at the head of the Government. When Mr. Hill first propounded his plan, and published it in a pamplet, it excited great attention in the country in general, and it was but natural that he should have been one of the first persons applied to, in order to give an opinion as to whether the plan would be likely to answer on the principle laid down by Mr. Hill—a principle totally different from the grounds which had been laid by his noble Friend. To show the principle propounded by Mr. Hill, he (the Earl of Lichfield) would refer to that part of his pamphlet in which he stated "that the demand for the conveyance of letters had increased in the same ratio as the demand for the conveyance of persons and parcels, and that yet there was a loss in the Post-
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office revenue of 2,000,000 l. per annum," and he seemed to fancy he had hit on a scheme for recovering that 2,000,000 l. Throughout the whole of his pamphlet this one principle prevailed—namely, that the high rates of postage were highly injurious to the revenue, and that, consequently, by a considerable reduction of them, the loss and injury to the revenue would be remedied. Of course, he had turned his attention to all Mr. Hill's calculations and opinions, and had then come to the opinion he had expressed already in that House, and to which he still adhered; and that opinion was, that it was totally impossible, but that by the proposed reduction, a considerable loss to the revenue must accrue. He, therefore, supported the present measure on entirely different grounds from those on which Mr. Hill proposed it. He assented to this bill on the grounds on which it had been proposed by his noble Friend—on the grounds on which it had been propounded in the House of Commons. In neither House had it been brought forward on the ground, that by the measure, either the revenue would be a gainer, or that, under it, the revenue would be equal to that now derived from the Post-office department. He assented to it on the simple ground, that the demand for the measure was universal, after three years' consideration—after public meetings, at which the matter had been fully discussed, and the voluminous evidence which showed a material loss to the revenue from the change had been published petitions from all parts of the country, crowded the tables of both Houses of Parliament, and the people, through their representatives, were strong in their expressions in its favour; and, therefore, he was entitled to come, with his noble Friend, to the conclusion that it was highly expedient that this measure should pass into a law. So obnoxious was the tax on letters, that the people had declared their readiness to submit to any impost that might be substituted in its stead, and on these principles he agreed to the plan, assuring the House he would use his best exertions effectually to carry it out.
Viscount Duncannonwas so anxious that the measure on Mr. Hill's plan should succeed, that he was desirous there should be no misunderstanding as to what had fallen from his noble Friend. It seemed to be supposed that his noble

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Friend was prepossessed in favour of payment on receipts, and against prepayment. Such was not the case. What his noble Friend had said, was that, in the first instance, it might be necessary to have payment both before and after transmission, and, therefore, it was necessary, with a view fully to try all the essential experiments, that the Treasury should have the full and extensive powers sought to be conferred by this bill, in order to accomplish that which would be most conducive to the public interest.
Bill read a second time.