Sitting of 9 March 1838

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Glass Duties' collection; Post-Office Government.
Petitions presented. By Lord CASTLEREAGH, from the Corporation of Bangor, and by Mr. SHAW, from the High Sheriff and Grand Jury of Wexford, against certain clauses in the Irish Poor-law Bill.—By the Earl of SHELBURNE, from Calne, by Mr. LISTER, from parishes in the East Riding of the county of York, by Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, from three Congregations of Protestant Dissenters in Birmingham, by Mr. BURROUGHS, from numerous places in Norfolk, by Mr. WRIGHTSON, from Northallerton, by Mr. PENDARVES, from various parts of Cornwall, by Mr. WILSON PATTEN, from Ramsbottom, and two other places in Lancashire, by Mr. SANFORD, from the Society of Friends, and four Dissenting Congregations in Bridgewater, and from Chard, and other places in the county of Somerset, by Mr. HEATHCOTE, from various parts of Lincolnshire, by Mr. GODDARD, from Cricklade, and by Mr. BAINES, from a place in the county of Cambridge, for the abolition of Negro Apprenticeship.—By Mr. GODSON, from Kidderminster, against the Rating of Tenements' Bill—By Mr. HOWARD, from Arklow, in favour of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. COLQUHOUN, from Dumbarton, for an improved system of Education in Scotland.—By Colonel CONOLLY, from the Diocese of Clogher, for the restoration of the ten suppressed Sees in Ireland.—By Sir E. KNATCHBULL, from Stage-coach proprietors, complaining of the heavy taxation to which they are liable as compared with the taxation on Steam Conveyances; and from Walmer and Sandwich, against the Municipal Boundaries' Bill.—fly Mr. P. MILES, from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the city of Bristol, for a reduction in the duties on the admission of Freemen.—By Mr. CHUTE, from a Board of Guardians in Norfolk, in favour of the Rating of Tenements' Bill.—By Mr. CHALMERS, from Arbroath and other places, and by Mr. ELLIOT, from the Secession Churches of Kelso and Roxburgh, against any additional grants to the Church of Scotland; and for a system of Education which should recognize no distinctions on religious grounds.—By Mr. PLUMPTRE, from inhabitants of Blackheath, against admitting Catholics to Parliament.—By Mr. HUME, from Finglassie, in the county of Fife, against the Corn-laws,

COPYHOLDS AND MANORS.
Sir E. Sugdensaid, that, with regard to the bills which had been introduced by the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Attorney-General, and which stood on the paper for a second reading that night, he had now read those bills, as well as the opportunity which he had had allowed him. To some of them he apprehended there could be no objection, but two of them were of great importance. By one of them the rights of lords of manors were, in many places, taken away, and transferred to the Crown, and the other altered the modes of descent which had prevailed in this country for a long time. He was not giving any opinion on the merits of those measures, but they were of so much importance that he did not think it right or proper that they should be read a second time merely pro formâ, but that a day ought to be appointed for their discussion.
The Attorney-Generalwas exceedingly anxious that these bills should come on immediately for discussion. There was nothing he regretted more than that any delay should be interposed, and he had entertained a hope, that the principle of these bills would not have been opposed, however their details might have been disputed. He had thought that no difference would have existed in point of principle, either as to the propriety of ameliorating the law regarding copyhold, or improving the law of escheats, or rendering more uniform the operation of the law of descent. If, however, any hon. Member was desirous of a general discussion upon these questions, he (the Attorney-General) would, of course, assent. But he must observe, that, if these matters were deferred to a subsequent period of the Session, the delay which would thus arise, he (the Attorney-General) should exceedingly deplore. These were questions which had nothing to do with party. He would, however, indulge in no comment upon the delay which was thus interposed, although he greatly regretted it.
Sir E. Sugdensaid, that there was no objection to the two bills with regard to Copyhold and the Manorial Boundaries' Bill being immediately proceeded with. These three bills, he (Sir E. Sugden) believed to be right in principle, and he threw no impediment whatever in their way. He had, however, thought, that the hon. and learned Gentleman purposed taking all the Bills together.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, that if no

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other hon. Member was disposed to offer any objection, he would move that these three bills be now read a second time. It was, undoubtedly, true that they formed but one branch of the whole subject; but the public would derive great benefit even from these three bills separately.
The Copyhold Enfranchisement Bill, the Copyhold Improvement Bill, and the Manorial Boundaries' Bill, were read a second time.

THE CHURCH (IRELAND).
Lord Stanleysaid, that, about a fortnight since, the noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) had said, that, in the course of some time, he should be prepared to state the course which Government would adopt with regard to the Irish Church. He wished to know at what time it was proposed to bring this matter forward, and what course Government proposed to pursue? He would also take the same opportunity of asking his noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, whether or not he had succeeded in obtaining a return of the proportion of tithes paid by the landed proprietors, as compared with the portion paid by the tenants in Ireland?
Lord J. Russellsaid, that with regard to the Tithe Bill, he hoped to be able to lay this subject before the House in the couse of the present month. He hoped to be able to state the principles and details of this bill before bringing forward any other measure relating to Ireland.
Viscount Morpethsaid, in reply to the noble Lord's question, that he had instituted an inquiry last year, but had found an almost insuperable difficulty in the way of obtaining the information which the noble Lord desired; and he had therefore no communication to make upon the subject.
Mr. Shawbelieved, from information which he had received, and upon which he thought he might rely, that very nearly one-half of the amount now paid in Ireland in the shape of tithes was paid by the landlords.

CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS.
Mr. C. Bullercould not hope that the House would proceed to the discussion of the Controverted Elections Bill that evening, considering the subject which was now before it. Several Gentlemen had taken considerable interest in it; and recent circumstances had rendered it desirable that the House should solemnly and seriously discuss it. He should be sorry,
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however, that any arrangement should be entered into with regard to this bill which would bring down hon. Gentlemen in the expectation of being present at a discussion upon this bill, and expose them to the disappointment of finding some other business before the House; and he therefore desired to see the discussion upon this bill fixed for some definitive period. If he (Mr. Buller) were not enabled to bring on his bill on Monday, he might not have it in his power to bring it on at all this Session, or, at all events, not before Easter.
Sir R. Peelthought, that this subject was of such importance, that her Majesty's Government might with great propriety fix some definitive day—say Friday next—for its discussion. There could be no more important question for discussion than that of the improvement of the mode of trial of Controverted Elections. But the subject could not be proceeded with without some preliminary discussion—the discussion, for instance, of that great preliminary question whether or not there would be any evil in the House of Commons parting with this jurisdiction. The importance of this subject could not be overrated.
Bill postponed.

POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
The House went into Committee on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.
On Clause 59, declaring what hereditaments shall be rateable,
Mr. W. S. O'Brienobserved, that while he admitted there were some classes of income, such as funds, which they could not reach by this bill, yet he could not see any objection to their including all jointures, annuities, and rent-charges arising from land. There was another omission which he was sure was only one of inadvertency, as it related to tithes, which were included—namely, ministers' money. The hon. Member then moved an amendment to the effect that these several species of income be included in this clause.
Mr. O'Connellwas of opinion, that all rent-charges and annuities in the shape of rent should be made rateable. It was his intention to move the insertion in the first line of this clause of the word "rents," and also that the "rights of water-power" at present included in the clause, be exempted from the rate.
Mr. Shawdid not think the amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell), by introducing the word

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"rents" would fairly raise the question at issue; for rents, popularly so called, that was, the sum receivable by the landlord from his tenant, was not rated separately, or intended to be so under the bill; the rate was, in the first instance, to be paid by the occupier, and then, in the proportions stated in the bill, stopped from the landlord's rent; but the real difficulty arose in the case of jointures, annuities, and other incumbrances, with which, unfortunately, the landed property of Ireland was in general heavily charged. Cases had been stated to him, where, if the whole charge of the poor-rate fell upon the owner of the estate, the greatest hardship and injustice would be the consequence; he knew one estate let for 999 years, at a rent of 1,000 l. per annum, of which the present proprietor was tenant for life, and his father had charged the estate with a jointure of 400 l. a-year, and a sum for younger children, the interest of which amounted to 540 l. a-year, leaving to the owner but a sum of 160 l. a-year as his present share—a sum which, if he be made liable for poor-rates, the entire estate, may not be sufficient to pay the poor-rate alone. If these incumbrances had followed the enactment of a poor-law, as was generally the case in England, the proprietor would have no reason to complain; but in Ireland, where, for the first time, a poor-law was to be inflicted on a heavily encumbered landed proprietary, the case was very different.
Mr. Littonsupported the insertion of the words "jointures and annuities," on the ground that the present was an entirely new measure, and was not contemplated by the granters of those incomes. The principle of this bill was to equalise the burthen of supporting the poor; it was with that view the bill was allowed to go into Committee, but leaving the clause as it now stood, would not carry out that principle. To all who had a practical acquaintance with the state of property in Ireland it was well known that, generally speaking, estates were charged to very nearly their full value, and the owner in fee enjoyed so small a residue, that it would be most unfair to prevent the imcumbrances from being rateable. The owner in fee, in a very great number of instances was literally but the agent for the annuitant, and he believed no practical man would deny that at least one third of the estates in Ireland were so circumstanced. Was it fair, just, or reasonable, that the annuitants
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who were far better off than the proprietors of the soil, should receive their incomes in full, while the owner in fee was left to struggle on the small pittance which now remained to him, still further reduced by this impost? Upon these grounds, and because the clause as it stood was unjust in principle, he should support the amendment of the hon. Member for Limerick.
Mr. Lynchwas of opinion, that nothing could be more injurious and unjust than to tax rent-charges; such a tax could fall on no one but the creditor, who derived no benefit from the property, and would enjoy no reversion; these annuitants gave money or other valuable consideration for their incomes, and where, he would ask, lay the distinction between them and a mortgagee?
Mr. O'Connellwas surprised to find any Gentleman, still more any lawyer, unable to discern a distinction between the case of an annuitant and a mortgagee; surely there was this wide difference, that the latter could press for the payment of his principal debt, and so relieve himself from the impost, whereas the annuitant was a landlord to the extent of the income he derived, and could not call in his original advance of capital.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfeobserved, the 69th clause to be introduced by the noble Lord, the Member for Stroud, provided for that.
Mr. Lefroywould support the clause as it stood, the principle of the bill being to throw the burden on the land; therefore, neither mortgagee, nor annuitant, nor jointress ought be rated. If the jointress had an estate in the land, then she would naturally become subject to the tax. He thought it right that those who had no estate in the land should be exempted from the rate. In England, annuitants or mortgagees had never been taxed with poor rates, and such a principle ought not to be introduced into the Irish bill. In truth, he hoped before the bill passed that House it would be assimilated more exactly to the English bill than it was at present.
Mr. Sheilwished to know if lead mines were exempted from rate in England, why they should not be so in Ireland?
The Attorney-Generalsaid, it was right they should adopt the law of England where it was just—but not where it was abused.
Lord Stanleywished to know what was intended to be done as to rating hogs. Was the part that was cut only to be rated or was the entire?
Mr. Woulfesaid, it was to be rated in the same way as quarries.
Sir Robert Ratesonsaid, he did not think the answer at all satisfactory. There were many parts of Ireland in which landlords never charged their tenants any thing for turf. He for one never did. He gave it as an accommodation to his tenants. He therefore thought it hard that a part of his property from which he derived no profit should be taxed.
Mr. Jephsonsaid, that if one acre were only available the whole bog would be rated.
Sir F. Trenchsaid, he knew a bog of 20,000 acres which produced nothing, and he thought it most unjust that it should be rated.
Mr. Lefroysaid, he was at a loss to know whether the Committee was in a mine or a bog. They began with the open mines, but they had now fallen into the bog. But to come back to the mines: it appeared to him, that situated as Ireland was, mines ought to be exempted from the rate. If the law in England were absurd, correct it, but do not introduce the converse of it in Ireland. He thought if the working of the mines were encouraged, the Poor-rates would be assisted. He thought, therefore, upon those grounds the mines ought to be exempted.
Mr. Rochesaid, the sums received by the landlords of the mines ought to be rated, but not the capital employed by adventurers in working them.
Mr. Lefroythought, that the mines of Ireland ought to be exempted from taxation. So convinced was he of the importance of this immunity to the welfare of that country, that he should take the opinion of the Committee on the subject. He begged to move that words "opened mines" be struck out of the clause, in order that mines might not be rateable, if the bill became law.
Viscount Morpeththought, the clause as it stood placed the matter on the fairest and most equitable footing possible. The anomalies of the law of England ought not to be introduced into Ireland, and as the Government thought that wherever there was profit, whether from above or under ground, the payment of rates should follow, they were determined to adhere to the clause.
Mr. Lucassaid, that if the noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, succeeded in carrying the clause as it stood, it would effect great mischief. He therefore should move
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that no open mine be rateable for fourteen years after the passing of the bill.
Mr. Sheilsaid, he had just asked the hon. Baronet, the Member for Cornwall, the course pursued in Cornwall and he found that the adventurer was not rated, though the landlord of the mines was.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he feared the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Sheil) would waste his eloquence in vain, as the noble Lord opposite had said he intended to leave the bill in its present state. With respect to the lead mines, he could state that mines in the county which he had the honour to represent were worked some years since without any profit arising from them. The works were abandoned, but recently they were again worked with considerable profit. He (Lord Castlereagh) had no wish to shield the landlords, but he contended that those who employed capital in working the mines, and who consequently gave employment to the people, should be exewpt from the rate.
Mr. Lynchsaid, that nothing could be more fair than the clause was as it stood. It declared that where there was no profit there should be no charge, but where there was, the rates should be payable; the Commissioners to rate according to the value from time to time. This rendered the clause, in his opinion, unobjectionable.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that property of that kind, and all manufactories under ground, were not rated in England; and he thought it would be more just to relieve Ireland from a tax that England did pay than to subject Ireland to a tax which England did not pay. He did not think the distinction made by the hon. Member for North Lancashire between bogs and quarries held good. They were quite analogous, and in both cases the subject matter was carried away. It was his determination, before the Bill left the Committee, to move a proviso, exempting bogs altogether. By a decision of the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, cutting turf was held to be waste, and no tenant could cut turf unless there was a special permission in his lease to do so. He did not know anything that would be felt a greater hardship by the poor of Ireland than the deprivation of this permission to cut turf, and he thought subjecting bog-lands to the payment of rate would have an injurious effect in that respect.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfesaid, that the only question they had to consider was, how a

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certain sum was to be raised, and if they exempted one kind of property from contributing to that sum, they must lay an additional burthen on some other kind of property. He thought this kind of property ought to be rated on the same principle as other property.
Mr. C. Bullerthought, that the tax ought to be put, as in all other cases, upon the rent paid to the landlord, taking the rent as a measure of value. He could mention many instances where sums to a very great amount had been expended in making mines productive, and where no profit could be expected to arise for several years, though they ultimately became productive. Now, it would be unjust to cast aside all the losses of former years, and, when the mines became productive, to make a new valuation, for the purpose of taxing them. He thought, that to subject this kind of property to the payment of the rates would operate as a very great discouragement to the employment of capital in the working of mines in Ireland.
Sir W. Somervillehad recently opened a copper mine on his estates in Ireland, one of his objects in doing which, was to give employment to the poor, where it was much wanted. He thought that subjecting this kind of property to taxation would operate as a very great discouragement to the employment of capital in speculations of the kind. Should they be indisposed to consent to a total exemption they ought at least to adopt the proposition of the hon. Member for Monaghan, giving an exemption for a limited number of years.
Lord J. Russellsaw no reason for the exemption of this kind of property; however, as the hon. Member for Monaghan's proposition only provided for an exemption for a limited number of years, he would have no objection to agree to it, but could not consent to a total exemption.
Amendment withdrawn.
Mr. Shawsaid, with respect to tithe owners, he thought that they ought to be placed in the same condition as the landlord. It would be very hard to call on the clergyman to pay the rates in respect to tithes which might never be paid. He thought that the tithe-payer in the first instance ought to be chargeable with the rate, and that he should then have the power of deducting the proper amount from the tithe-owner, but no person could contend that the tithe-owner ought to be made pay that which he might never get.
Viscount Morpethsaid, that this point had been debated last year, and the Committee had been induced to adhere to the present course by two considerations. The first was, that they ought not to complicate the relations between landowner and tenant; and, secondly, that as the whole tendency of their legislation was to remove the payment of the tithes to the highest landowner, it would not be consistent with that tendency to throw the burthen in this instance upon the occupier.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfesaid, that the tendency of this proposition would be to throw the burthen of the entire poor's rate in the first instance on the occupier. In a few years more the occupiers in Ireland would no longer be the persons who would have to pay the tithe composition, so that they would have the occupier paying the rates for the clergyman though not being the person chargeable with the payment of the composition. The preferable mode appeared to him to be to treat tithe composition as in itself a substantive property. As to the difficulty of getting clergymen to pay the rate, he was quite sure they would be as ready as any other class to contribute their just share to relieve the wants of their fellow-countrymen.
Mr. Shawsaid, that his objection had not at all been answered. What he complained of as a hardship was, that clergymen should be called on to pay rates before they got tithes, which, perhaps, after they had paid the rates in respect to them they might never get. He was quite sure when they were paid their tithes they would be quite willing to pay their rates, but he contended it would be a hardship to make them chargeable with rates on tithes which they might never be paid.
Mr. Sheilthought, if it was unfair towards the clergyman to make him pay before he received his tithes, it should be held equally unjust to the landlord to make him pay before he received his rent. On the 1st of September last, he owed a year's tithes to the rev. Mr. Thomson, and he was immediately compelled to pay them, though he had not been paid his rents. The rev. gentleman filed a bill in equity to recover the tithes, although he (Mr. Sheil) had not received one farthing of rent. His tithes and his rent were both due on the 1st of November, but he was forced to pay his tithes, although he had not received any rent. Would the hon. Member for Sligo relish this? He (Mr. Sheil) was satisfied that if the bill were altered

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in this particular, the poor rate would be blended with the rent.
Colonel Percevalsaid, that the clergy in his neighbourhood were ready to wait for their tithes till the rents were paid.
Mr. Shawmoved, that the words "all tithes and compositions or rents in lieu of tithes," should be left out of the clause. He admitted, that this was an inconvenient way of putting the question; but he did it to raise the consideration whether the clergyman should be placed on a different footing from the landlords, but that he should not pay rates for his tithes till he had received them.
Mr. Sergeant Woulferemarked, that this was precisely similar to the case of the clergy in England, who were liable to pay rates for such tithes as were receivable.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that this clause only declared that tithes should be rateable, and did not provide for their being levied. He thought that the whole objection would be remedied if power were given to the guardians to levy the rates against the composition, and not to proceed against the clergyman.
Sir E. Sugdensaid, that that there was no reason why rates should not be paid by clergymen in Ireland as well as in England: and as the hon. Member for Dublin proposed a remedy in rem and not in personam, there was no objection to leaving these words, and introducing the proposed remedy against the composition only, unless the clergyman had received the money.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, that the very question was raised on the English Tithe Commutation Act, and he thought that by adopting the words of the English Act the suggestions of the hon. Member for Dublin would be fully met.
The clause with amendment, to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 62 (existing surveys to be used if sufficient; if not, the guardians to cause fresh surveys to be made).
Sir Robert Fergusonsaid, that too much power was given to the Commissioners by this clause. The making of surveys was a matter entailing great expense on the country, and which, in its present state it could scarcely bear, and he really thought that the Ordnance surveys, which had been already made, should be used.
Viscount Morpethsaid, that the Ordnance surreys, which had been already made, did not extend to more than half the country. It was only in the absence
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of such surveys, or when they were insufficient, that it was proposed that fresh ones should be made in order to carry out the provisions of the Act.
Mr. Lucassaid, that the Ordnance surveys were townland surveys, and were not therefore, applicable to the purposes of this Bill.
Sir Robert Fergusonsaid, that if they were not, he really hoped that they would not be continued, for the Irish people were already taxed with immense charges on this head without reasonable cause.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfesuggested, that the Ordnance surveys had nothing to do with the Bill unless they should be found useful for its purpose. If new surveys were required why should they not be made?
Sir Robert Fergusonwould then move an amendment to the clause, to the effect that the consent of two thirds of the Guardians should be required to decide what surveys should be used, and he would take the sense of the Committee upon the subject.
The Committee divided, on the Amendment:—Ayes 27: Noes 50: Majority 23.

List of the AYES.

Archbold, R.

Lefroy, rt. hon. T.

Blake, M. J.

Litton, E.

Browne, R. D.

O'Connell, D,

Douglas, Sir C. E.

O'Connell, M.

Eaton, R. J.

Perceval, Colonel

Finch, F.

Roche, D.

Forbes, W.

Rolleston, L.

Gladstone, W. E.

Round, C. G.

Hayes, Sir E.

Shaw, right hon. F.

Hodgson, R.

Style, Sir C.

Hughes, W. B.

Vigors, N. A.

Hurt, F.

Villiers, Visct.

Jackson, Sergeant

TELLERS.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Jones, T.

Bateson, Sir R.

List of the NOES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Howard, P. H.

Baring, F. T.

Hutton, R.

Beamish, F. B.

Langdale, hon. C.

Brotherton, J.

Lucas, E.

Bryan, G.

Macleod, R.

Chalmers, P.

Mahony, P.

Childers, J. W.

Morpeth, Viscount

Craig, W. G.

Murray, rt. hon. J. A.

Curry, W.

O'Brien, C.

Fitzalan, Lord

O'Brien, W. S.

Fitzsimon, N.

O'Callaghan, hon. C.

Fleetwood, P. H.

O'Connell, M. J.

French, F.

Parker, J.

Gillon, W. D.

Pinney W.

Gordon, R.

Power, J.

Hall, B.

Redington, T. N.

Harvey, D. W.

Rice, right hon. T. S.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Roche, E. B.

Hodges, T. L.

Roche, W.

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Rolfe, Sir R.

Stuart, V.

Russell, Lord J.

Wakley, T.

Scrope, G. P.

Westenra, hon. H. R.

Seymour, Lord

Wood, G. W.

Sheil, R. L.

Sinclair, Sir G.

TELLERS.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Lynch, A. H.

Spencer, hon. F.

Woulfe, Sergeant

Clause agreed to.
The House resumed, Chairman reported progress, Committee to sit again.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord BANDON, from Electors of Cork, for an annual revision of the Registry in Ireland; from Bandon-bridge, for the continuance of Medical Charities; and from several other places, against any National system of Education in Ireland which excluded the use of the Holy Scriptures.—By Lord REDESDALE, from Inverness, for the establishment of a Morning Mail from London to the North.—By Earl STANHOPE, from Merthyr Tydvil, and from Huddersfield, for the immediate repeal of the Poor-law Amendment Act.—By the Earl of RADNOR, from Ashburton, and from Blackburn, by Lord BROUGHAM, from Ashburton, and from Wesleyan Methodists at Acton, from Bath, from Wesleyan Methodists of Penzance (Cornwall), the inhabitants of Wincanton, Dorking, Airdale College (Yorkshire), and from several other places, for the immediate abolition of Slavery; from Dunbar, Kirkintolloch, and other places, against any grant to the Scotch Church; from Solicitors of Dundee, against the Sheriffs' Court Bill; from Cupar, to amend the Reform Act; and from Cupar, to repeal the Corn-laws.

ABOLITION of SLAVERY ACT.
Lord Broughamwished to ask a question of his noble Friend, the Secretary for the Colonial Department. He had read with great attention the bill which his noble Friend had laid on the table respecting slavery in the West Indies; a bill which did not satisfactorily meet his (Lord Brougham's) views; but one of the most important of all its clauses was that which gave certain powers to the governor, or rather to a court of error in the colonies, with respect to actions and judgments, whether in matter of equity or of law. Now he wished to ask his noble Friend what was the constitution of those of error, and particularly the constitution of the court in Jamaica, and what their numbers were?
Lord Glenelgsaid, they consisted of the governor and two or three of the council: I am not now quite certain which.
The Marquess of Sligo: I can inform my noble and learned Friend—
Lord Brougham: Ay, ay! but my noble Friend did not draw the bill. If it had been drawn by my noble Friend, I should have understood it; for be would have known what he was about. Will my noble Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, say whether there is a court of error in every colony in the West Indies? Because, if there be not, then those colonies which have no such courts will be deprived of the benefit of this bill altogether. There are different constitutions in different colonies, and I hope my noble Friend will accede to the proposition I am about to make. That proposition is to move for a return, stating the constitution of the courts of error in the several colonies respectively to which the bill applies, and in the mean time postpone the second reading of the bill.
Lord Glenelghad no objection to the return asked for by the noble Lord; but he had a decided objection to postpone the second reading of the bill on that account. He knew that in some of the colonies there were not courts of error, and it was his intention, as he should be perfectly prepared to do on Monday, to state to the House, what it was proposed to do with respect to those colonies in which no courts of error existed.
Lord Broughamhad no wish to delay the second reading of the bill; indeed, his opinion was, that the sooner it was disposed of the better; but it was necessary
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that some information should be had on the subject.
The Duke of Wellingtonthought, that perhaps the better course would be to postpone the second reading from Monday to Tuesday, as before that time the information required by the noble and learned Lord might be procured.
Viscount Melbournehad no objection to any reasonable postponement; but he begged leave to remind their Lordships of the manner in which her Majesty's Government had been reproached for not bringing forward this measure. They were said to be guilty of great delay, to have been supine, and indeed every sort of reproach had been thrown out against them, and now that they had brought in the bill the first application for delay came from the noble and learned Lord, who was the loudest in making those reproaches, and that application was seconded by the noble Duke, who certainly had joined with the noble and learned Lord in pressing the Government to use all haste and speed with this measure. However, he had no objection to postpone the second reading from Monday to Tuesday for the convenience of the noble Duke.
Lord Broughamsaid, that his previous course was perfectly consistent with his present proposition. He did not wish to delay bringing on the measure; but it had been brought forward in such a shape as to render it impossible for him to call it other than an abortion, an ill-conceived and ill-contrived measure, because it was framed upon the supposition of there being in every island a court of error, and it also proceeded upon the supposition that those who framed it knew what the constitution of the court of error was in each of those islands. Was there anything, he would ask, that was inconsistent in wishing a measure to be brought forward without delay and without imperfections also? How could he tell whether he could agree to the principle of the bill, unless he knew how the courts of error were constituted?
The Marquess of Sligosaid, it was desirable that the bill should be carried through before Easter, in order that certain proceedings should take place in the colonies which the bill rendered necessary.
Lord Glenelgwould submit to the House whether it was quite fair on the part of the noble and learned Lord to enter into a discussion of a bill before the individual who introduced it had an opportunity to develop its provisions? With

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respect to the proposition of the noble Duke, he was most ready to accede to a postponement of the second reading from Monday to Tuesday.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Earl of Aberdeenwished to call the attention of the noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government to the subject of additional endowments to the Church of Scotland, which was spoken of yesterday. On that occasion the noble Viscount informed their Lordships that the subject was under the consideration of the Government. Perhaps the noble Viscount had since discovered, that the result of the deliberation of the Government was announced by a noble Lord in another place; but that announcement was stated in the usual sources of intelligence in such a manner that he was not very well able to comprehend the nature of the decision which her Majesty's Government had arrived at. Perhaps the noble Viscount would not object to state what course he intended to take upon the subject. He hoped the noble Viscount would not consider that he was unnecessarily urgent upon this matter, for he could assure the noble Viscount that there was no question, whether of foreign or domestic policy, that excited more interest in Scotland than this.
Viscount Melbournewas aware of the great interest excited in Scotland upon this question, and particularly with regard to the course which it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to pursue; he was also perfectly aware, that the question which the noble Earl had put was a question asked and answered in another place; at the same time, (referring to the usual sources of information) that question was said, (whether it was so or not he could not tell, but he believed not) to have been answered in a very premature and undigested manner. This, at least, showed the ill effects of that senseless hurry and precipitation with which measures were urged upon the Government. Nothing tended, perhaps, more to foster that rash and precipitate haste than the bringing forward a great number of measures simultaneously for the consideration of the two Houses of Parliament, upon subjects of great importance, and to each of which it was, therefore, rendered impossible that they could devote due and proper attention. It was his opinion that it would be much better to bring forward
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measures deliberately one by one, so that the whole attention of Parliament should be given to each. A great attack had been made on the Government for the little which had been effected this Session. He could not help thinking, that measures of the greatest importance, and quite sufficient to occupy the attention of Parliament, had already been brought forward. More particularly when he considered that the other House of Parliament had been engaged on a measure of the highest importance to Ireland, namely, the introduction of a system of Poor-laws into that country—a subject amply sufficient to occupy their attention for the time it was under consideration. With respect to the Church of Scotland, he had only delayed giving a definite answer to the questions which had been put to him until he had made himself sufficiently master of the details. He could not yet give an opinion as to the exact amount of the want of church room tinder the existing system in Scotland, or as to the degree to which it might be necessary to supply that want and that necessity. But he and his colleagues in the Government were clearly of opinion that, whatever want might exist, they ought not to resort for the purpose of supplying that want to the general funds of the country, until all the property which had been for a great time in the possession of the Church, or which, at the present time, was liable and bound to make up such deficiency, and applicable to the spiritual wants of the country, had been appropriated to that purpose. If a great deficiency of spiritual assistance and church accommodation were proved to exist in any of the parishes in the rural districts of Scotland, in which the teinds were already exhausted, it was the intention of the Government to propose that assistance should be given to those parishes from that fund to which he had, on a former occasion, alluded, namely, the Bishops' teinds, now in the possession of the Crown; but in any parish in which the teinds still remained unexhausted, the Ministers were of opinion, that any further assistance required, should be supplied from those unexhausted teinds; and with that view measures would be taken to render the application of those teinds, to such purposes, more easy, and enable that to be done with more facility than it could be done under the act of 1707, which regulated those teinds. That was the general view which the Government entertained

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upon the subject. The answer which he gave to the noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham) yesterday might have been understood to be in the negative; and that it was not intended to propose a Parliamentary grant to supply the wants of the Church of Scotland.
The Earl of Aberdeensupposed, from what had fallen from the noble Viscount, that some proposition would be made by Government on the subject. The noble Viscount had stated, that it was not the intention of the Government to grant any assistance to those districts in which the teinds had not been exhausted. Now, in some of those districts, the deficiency existed in a tenfold degree more than in any other part of the country. Nothing, he supposed, was to be done for the cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow, where the deficiency was very great, and to which the attention of the Commissioners had hitherto been exclusively directed. The noble Viscount said, that he would not consent to supply the deficiency out of the general funds of the country, but out of the Bishops' teinds. Those teinds had become part of the hereditary revenues of the Crown, and belonged to the public. The noble Viscount might put his hand into whatever pocket he pleased, but still he would abstract the money from the pocket of the public, just as much as if he took it from the consolidated fund. The noble Viscount said, that, by an alteration of the act of 1707, he would make the division of parishes, the appointment of ministers, and the applications of the teinds, more easy; but, in those parishes, the church property might be compared to tithes, which was the property of the heritors, as lay-impropriators; and the alteration would throw upon that property the expense of endowment, which its owners never comtemplated when they acquired it. At present, if three-fourths of the heritors or owners of land concurred, they had the power of dividing parishes on application to the Court of Session, as a court of teinds. He wished that a little more of that consideration, of which he had heard so much, were applied to this important subject. With respect to urging the Government to give information on this question with unnecessary haste, there was no ground for the observation. The noble Lord to whom the question had been put had taken his own time. He said, that he would be ready with an answer at a certain period, and he had given one. He entreated the
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noble Viscount to consider this measure more than he appeared to have done.
Lord Broughamobserved, that though the noble Viscount on a former occasion had said that he answered a question put by him on this subject in the negative, yet the answer which he gave this night was decidedly in the affirmative of that question. What the noble Viscount proposed to do could not be done without a bill, and a most important bill. What signified it, whether the deficiency was supplied from one fund or from another, it would still come out of the public pocket, for the Bishops' teinds were now as much a part of the revenue as the consolidated fund. No matter which pocket the noble Viscount applied to, he was making the public pay, by sanctioning a grant of public money. This plan could not be effected except by a money bill. It would begin with "Most Gracious Sovereign," and it would receive the Royal assent in the usual form applied to money bills—"La Reine remercie ses loyal sujets, accepte leur benevolence, et aussi le vent." It must be a money bill, and nothing else. It would be acting most unjustly to those who had purchased these teinds to burden them with the endowment of new churches—since, when the purchases were effected, they were only liable to charges connected with the churches that then existed.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that notwithstanding the opinion which had been expressed by the noble and learned Lord, he must still adhere to what he had originally stated as to the teinds. There was certainly a distinction between the Bishops' teinds, which were formerly in the possession of the church, and the property which was at present in the possession of the Crown. That property was taken from the church by the Crown on the express condition that it should be applied hereafter to ecclesiastical purposes. During the great alterations made by Henry 8th at the time of the Reformation, property was taken from the church with that precise understanding; but the Crown did not keep its word, and some of that property was given away by the Crown in grants to individuals in England and Scotland. That property could not be touched again; but that which remained in the possession of the Crown could be applied, he maintained, to the purposes of the church. What was the landed property of the Church of England? He did not pretend to have a full knowledge of the

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matter, but he believed the property of the church was that which had been wrested from it by her predecessors, Henry 8th and Edward 6th, and which Queen Mary restored to the Roman Catholic church, and which afterwards became, as it was still, the property of the Protestant Church. He took that to be the property of the Established Church, to be applied to ecclesiastical purposes. He thought the inhabitants of Scotland would hail the measure contemplated by the Government with gratitude; and he believed that there was a general feeling among the landholders in favour of this among application of the property for the better instruction of their fellow-countrymen, and the supply of their spiritual wants.
Lord Broughamprotested against the principle of spoliation laid down by the noble Viscount, and begged him to reflect upon what he had said, for he might depend upon it, that he would hear more on this subject. He had never heard the principle of spoliation so openly avowed before. Did the noble Viscount think, that because a man bought those teinds, he was liable to——
Viscount Melbourne: He bought them with an onus on them.
Lord Brougham: Yes, with one onus, that of supporting the existing parochial churches. But did the noble Viscount mean to say that he bought them liable to be called on to support new churches? They were not liable to any demand of the kind, unless three-fourths of the heritors concurred. It was a mere chimera of the brain to suppose, that the teinds were liable to such spoliation. Such a doctrine no lawyer in Westminister-hall would presume to propound. He appealed to the noble Lord on the woolsack whether his estimation of that doctrine was not correct.
The Earl of Haddingtondid not know whether his noble and learned Friend intended by his speech to compliment the noble Viscount, or to throw out some sarcasm against him; but he agreed with his noble and learned Friend that the principle laid down by the noble Viscount was a principle of spoliation. The liability of a landholder to give up his property, and what he might choose to do as a Christian man, were two very different things. It was true, as his noble and learned Friend had stated, that the landholders would be liable to give up their property for the augmentation and support of churches whenever the Court of Session should, as
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a court of teinds, make a decree to that effect. He regretted to hear, however, one part of the statement made by the noble Lord, because he inferred from it that the wants and necessities of Edinburgh and Glasgow, and every other great town in Scotland, were to be overlooked by the State. He believed, that as in other parts of the conduct of her Majesty's Government, they were much influenced by the pressure from without; not that they were not friendly to the Established Church, but they feared to offend the Dissenters and the supporters of the voluntary principle. With respect to the teinds, he so far concurred with the noble Viscount that they were a very natural source of the means for providing for the education and religious instruction of the people. He was surprised that after so much delay, and the report of the Commissioners had been so long in hand, the Government were not going to do something which would be more satisfactory to the people of Scotland.
Lord Broughamagain rose to explain. It was a pure fallacy to suppose that this was not a public fund, as far as the persons who had to pay were concerned. The people of England would have to pay as well as the people of Scotland, who did not pay many taxes, he believed. The distinction which had been drawn was a mere nominal distinction.
The Archbishop of Canterburyobserved, that it was perfectly true, as stated by the noble Viscount, that portions of the church property were bestowed on various persons by that arbitrary monarch, Henry 8th. But with regard to the property of the church, he begged to remind their Lordships that the Church of England was the national church, and if any revolution should take place, by which the Romish religion should be re-established in this country, there would be no transfer of property from one church to another; the property would still be held by the church as being that of the national church, returning, in that case, to its ancient corruptions.
Conversation dropped.

THE CHURCH IN CANADA.
The Archbishop of Canterburyrose to present a petition from the bishops, clergy, and Protestant inhabitants of Upper Canada. The petition was signed by nearly 6,000 persons. It had been in his possession for some time, as he had received it in

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the spring of 1834, and the reason why he had not presented it before that time was, because the petitioners expected that a final settlement of all questions relating to the Church in Canada would have been made in each succeeding Session, and from the distance of the petitioners from the Legislature, they could not have been aware of the exact time when the discussion in regard to their religious establishments would take place. They had, therefore, placed the petition in his hands, in order to its being presented whenever the proper time for bringing it under their Lordships' attention should arrive. Late events in Canada had brought on the necessity for an immediate and final settlement of all questions relating to that province, and the time, therefore, had arrived when the petition ought to be presented. He would read to the House the petitioners' own words. The most rev. Prelate then read an extract from the petition to the following effect:—The petitioners stated themselves to be composed of Loyalists, who had left the United States under the most solemn pledge that they should have a constitution in every respect resembling that of the mother country, which constitution provided fur the security of the Church. They stated, that in fulfilment of that pledge, an Act had passed in the reign of George the 3rd, which provided for the support of a Protestant Church establishment, in a way which was not burdensome to any one. They further stated, that many of their number were emigrants from the parent state, who had left their own country, firmly persuaded that they should be secured in the inestimable privilege of worshipping God in the same way as their fathers had worshipped. They further stated, that a provision had been made for the support of the Protestant religion in Canada, and they humbly represented to that House, that they considered that provision as part of their birth-right; and that they had heard with feelings of the greatest pain, that a proposal had been made to deprive the Church in Canada of a provision which had been secured to that Church by the most solemn pledges. They claimed continued security for their religious rights, especially as those rights had been secured to the Roman Catholic population of Lower Canada, and they trusted to obtain permanent support for a Church establishment in connexion with the Church of England. On the subject to
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which the petition referred, he had not thought proper to make any remarks while the discussions regarding recent occurrences in Canada were going on in that House. In those discussions no question regarding the Church establishment in Canada was referred to, and the important questions regarding the civil concerns of the colony had so engrossed attention that he considered he should have acted improperly in bringing the matters to which the petition related under the consideration of their Lordships at that time. He did not wish to introduce the subject then, on account of the great excitement which prevailed in regard to the civil affairs of Canada, and because the subject of the petition in reality related to all the colonial possessions of England, as the whole of those possessions were similarly situated in regard to their religious concerns. He considered the question involved in the petition, one of universal importance, and he was sure he had no need to expatiate in that House on the salutary influence which religion exercised over the morals and character of a community, or on the beneficial effects which the Established Church in this country produced on the people. In Canada, the establishment and support of that Church was calculated to produce piety, loyalty, order, obedience to the laws, and that attachment to the mother country, which every lover of his country would wish to see in all the colonial possessions of England. Feeling persuaded that religion was necessary for the temporal and eternal welfare of mankind, it was of the highest importance that it should be extended to all the possessions of England. They knew that the destinies of ancient empires were intimately connected with religion: he believed that the same principle continued to operate; and that in the end it would extend its influence over the whole earth. It had ever been a part of the policy of England to support a religious establishment, and he feared, that if ever the interests of religion were excluded from her national policy, her glory and her greatness would decay and be extinguished. If this were true, then it became the duty of the governors of this country to take care that religion was duly encouraged everywhere, and that they should plant and cherish that national Church in all our colonies, which it was allowed presented the doctrines of Christianity in their purest form. But this was a duty which our

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governors from the earliest period had neglected. In a document which he held in his hand, and which was recognised by the Legislature, the duty and the neglect of that duty were both acknowledged. It was a charter of William the 3rd to the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, and he would take the liberty of reading a passage from it to their Lordships. The most rev. Prelate read a passage, of which the following is the substance:—"Whereas in many of our colonies the provision for the ministers of religion is very lean; and whereas others are almost destitute of religious instruction, and many of our loving subjects are, from want of religious instructors, verging to infidelity;"—that, observed the most rev. Prelate, was an acknowledgment of neglect—"and whereas we think it our duty to provide sufficient maintenance for the ministers of religion in these our colonies, be it enacted, &c."That, continued the most rev. Prelate, was an acknowledgment of the duty, and accordingly the charter went on to provide for religious instruction to the people of those colonies, but all that was to be done was to be dependent on "the charity of our loving subjects". That was the whole extent of the provision made, and under that charter thirty clergymen were employed in America before the revolution—a number totally inadequate to the wants of the people. In this way matters went on, and no adequate provision was made for the Church Establishment. It was a remarkable circumstance, that during the course of the American war the Loyalists were almost universally the friends of the Protestant Church; whilst those persons who belonged to other denominations of Christians were not so steadfast in their attachment to this country. This was one of the circumstances which opened the eyes of the Administration of that period to the mistake committed by former Governments in not sufficiently attending to the religious concerns of the colony, and by an Act passed during the reign of George the 3rd, one-seventh portion of the unappropriated lands were set apart for the benefit of the Protestant church, so that means were thereby provided of making an allowance for new ministers without throwing any burden on the state. As, however, these reserved lands were not cultivated, they were not immediately productive; and in the mean time it was found necessary that Parliamentary grants should be made for the maintenance of the
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clergy; and, with the same view, a union was formed with the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts. He should also have mentioned that a bishop was appointed for Quebec, and the consequence of that appointment and of the other measures taken for the support of the Protestant church was, that, whereas at the time of the appointment of the first bishop of Quebec there were but six clergymen in both provinces, the number was increased during the time of that Prelate to above fifty; and at the present moment there were in the Canadas more than 100 ministers of the gospel belonging to the Protestant Established Church, who were partly paid by the Government, and partly by the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel. In the course of time inconveniences were found to arise from the assignment of so large a portion as he had already mentioned of lands to the church, amounting, he believed, to about 2,000,000 acres. For, as the establishment possessed no means of improving the waste lands, they remained unproductive, and presented obstacles to the general improvement of the country. He recollected that, when he was Bishop of London, several plans were proposed for removing those inconveniences, but none were considered satisfactory enough to be adopted. At no time, however, was there any question of withdrawing the support afforded by the Government to the church; and the policy of the Government, which set apart those reserved lands, was faithfully and conscientiously followed out. In the process of time the difficulties which were experienced became multiplied, and claims were made for a participation in the reserves, which the friends of the Established Church maintained were intended exclusively for it by the ministers of the Scotch Church, and by the ministers of all the different sects of Protestant Dissenters in the colony. He begged their Lordships to bear in mind that these claims were not preferred until after a lapse of thirty years from the time of the original grant. In 1828 a Committee of the House of Commons directed its attention to this matter, and shortly afterwards the House of Assembly in Upper Canada went so far as to declare that it would be better to apply the reserves rather than distribute them among all the various denominations of Christians to the purposes of education, and of making roads, for which money was wanted in the colony. At one time considerable as-

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sistance was given to the Established Protestant Church in the Canadas by grants voted by the House of Commons; but, in consequence of some manifestations in that assembly, a promise was given that those grants should be gradually withdrawn, so that it was to be feared that the church in Canada would be left destitute. He was ready to admit that the Government had acted with a degree of equity in continuing the allowances to the ministers of the church at present in Canada; but these allowances would expire with them, and the result would be, that whereas the number of clergymen in the two provinces, each of which was equal in extent to England and Wales, was already insufficient, that number must, of necessity, be considerably reduced. It was also a matter of regret that no proper provision was made for the maintenance of a bishop, when, in point of fact, it was absolutely necessary for the support of religion in the colonies that two bishops should be appointed. It was undoubtedly true, that some rectories had been lately endowed, and he understood it was the intention of the Government to sanction those appropriations; but they could not for some time be productive, as the land was uncultivated. Such being the case, it was evident, that unless due means were provided for supporting the church in Canada, it must fall; and all persons who had been induced to settle in Canada in the expectation of finding there a Protestant church establishment, would have good cause for complaint. At the time when the grant of those reserved lands was made to the church, who would have ventured to say that after the lapse of a few years all that property would be taken away, or that but a very little portion of it would be left? The different way in which the Protestant church and the Roman Catholic church had been treated was remarkable. The rights of the Roman Catholics were fully recognized by the capitulation of Quebec, and by two subsequent acts of Parliament. He thought that when the national faith was pledged it ought never to be broken; nor did the petitioners desire that it should. They were perfectly willing that the Roman Catholic church should remain in possession of all the advantages assured to it by the Acts of the Legislature; but they claimed equal favour for the Protestant church. Indeed, in one or two instances pensions had been granted to Roman Catholic bishops, whether rightly or wrongly
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he should not now inquire; and he was informed that after the grant made to the Roman Catholic bishop in Canada was abolished by Act of Parliament, he continued in the enjoyment of the same grant. Was it equitable, then, to withdraw the grants from the bishops of the Protestant church, while the grants to the bishops of the Romish church were continued? Persons who had settled in any colony upon the faith of Acts of Parliament, had a right to expect that those Acts would be observed, and that their claims would be respected. But it was sometimes said, how could this be done? Where could be found the means to support the church? He admitted, that this was a difficulty; but, although it was not for him to point out to the Government the plan they should adopt, yet he might say that, great as it was, it was not insurmountable. The Roman Catholic religion, which had subsisted for so long a time in Lower Canada, had been established and supported by the French when they possessed the colony; and yet it was thought impracticable for the Government of the present day to follow a similar course. It was not his intention to enter into these particulars, but he wished only to state the wants of the church in Canada. It was impossible for the church established there to be conducted with efficacy, and for a proper discipline to be preserved, without bishops being appointed for both the upper and lower province; and if that were done, he thought that, in the course of a very few years, a hundred additional clergy would also be wanted. In a letter which he had lately received from Dr. Stuart, that gentleman said, that it was impossible with such a vast extent of visitation as that which he had, over a distance of 1,000 miles—and he (the Archbishop of Canterbury) had understood, that instead of 1,000 it was no less than 1,800 miles—that one man, however active and zealous he might be, could go through this labour, and do justice to the Christian inhabitants of the parishes. The late bishop had shown his sincerity in this view by sacrificing out of his salary of 3,000 l., 1,000 l. out of it for the accomplishment of his object, and he had so far carried his point as to obtain the appointment of a coadjutor, to whom he resigned that sum as a salary. As soon, however, as he died, that salary ceased, so that the Bishop of Montreal had been left without a salary; and yet the duties he had to perform were so laborious

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that last year one of his visitations occupied four months, and if it had been of the whole province, it would have taken the rest of the year. In the upper province there were no visitations, no confirmations, and this want of spiritual superintendence was most lamentable. He would ask, too, what was the sum of 1,000 l. per annum for a visitation of a country as large as England and Wales together? Now, what he should desire was, in the first place, that there should be a competent provision for the Bishops; nothing exorbitant or extravagant, but a moderate allowance, enough for them to pay their expenses, and enable them to live comfortably. Without this, the establishment must be given up. The provision, too, should be solid and permanent, such as by some endowments in the province. If it were ever to be done, it must be done now, for if this opportunity slipped by, it could not be done hereafter; there would be no means of effecting it. He only expressed his hope, that the principle of the original plan of Lord Grenville should be attended to. It was a wise and liberal policy to continue grants for a time until actual means could be supplied, and those means might be, in some degree, furnished by the charity of individuals; but if individuals could be so charitable, why should not the nation be so collectively? Whatever money might be laid out for this object in these provinces would be expended beneficially; it would bring back a large return in the improvement of the morals and the conduct of the people—in the increase of their loyalty, of their obedience to the laws, and, be believed, of their attachment to the mother country. He would say, let not false views of economy or cold calculations prevail over every other consideration; for, in fact, the happiness of the people in Canada was at stake. Did we owe nothing to Canada? Did it not furnish persons with the opportunity of emigrating—a provision of the Poor-laws which he thought most salutary—and thus afford a great relief to this country? But was it just to tell those who went out that they would find the same church established there as they had enjoyed here, when, on their arrival, they really found themselves in a wilderness, miles and miles away from the reach of a minister of the Gospel? He would only refer to the different spirit in which this country had acted as to the black population in the West Indies: we had there
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raised to ourselves a national monument of our regard to the rights of our fellow-creatures in making so large a sacrifice for the emancipation of the negroes, and for assigning such large funds (and he thought most properly so) for their education and spiritual instruction. Having done this, was it not most inconsistent for us to refuse a few thousands a-year for providing clergy to furnish the comforts of religion to those who had emigrated from this country, and by whose emigration our Poor-rates were so much diminished? But there was another objection. He had been told, and he had often heard it repeated, that the Established Church was in a great minority, and that, in fact, it was the smallest religious denomination in the country. This statement, however, he believed to have been made from prejudice, and by those who did not wish to see the establishment prosper; for, on the other hand, he had been also informed by most credible persons, that the Established Church bore the largest proportion, except the Popish Church, as was to be naturally expected. But there were many circumstances which might occasion this variety of statements, and made it difficult to learn the truth. There were thousands who were without any clergy at all—without any thing reminding them of their belonging to a Christian community, except the sentiments which they had learned from their fathers, or had carried out of this or other countries. No sooner did a clergyman go amongst these people, than they flocked round him, desiring him to baptise them and to preach to them. In one part, they had formed themselves into a body and called themselves Congregational Episcopalians; they had a minister of the Church of England, and had built a church by subscription. He had mentioned this only to show how the calculation might be wrong. If the establishment were as large as this country ought to provide for her subjects in all parts of the world, wherever they might be, instead of its being in a minority, it would be soon found that numbers would embrace it, and raise it to a majority. The only reason of its being so now was, that emigrants were landed in places where there was no religious instruction at all. He had endeavoured to make his statement general, so as to avoid anything unpleasent or offensive to any noble Lord who had been Secretary to the Colonies. He saw noble Lords sitting opposite to him to

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whom he felt himself bound to make acknowledgment for the courtesy and attention with which they had listened to his representations, and at the same time he must say, that he should be doing great injustice to the present noble Secretary for the Colonies, if he did not make the same acknowledgment to the noble Lord for the frankness of his communications and the readiness he had shown to attend to this subject; and he felt sure that the noble Lord was sincere in the regret which he had expressed that he could not comply with his present proposals. He had felt himself under the necessity of coming forward now, because if he had not done so, all exertion hereafter would be unavailing; but, in addition to this, there was another ground, which was to enter his protest against the doctrine to which he had just referred, that the Established Church was to be looked upon in Canada as only one of those sects which now distract Christianity, and that it was not entitled to any distinction above another; but that Ministers should determine for which sect any grant was to be made. Such was the tendency of the system most generally prevailing in the Colonies, and he thought it right to state, that he always felt it his duty to oppose any thing of that sort at once, and so relieve himself from any remonstrance which might afterwards be made, if things were not arranged according to his views, that he should have stated his objections before. He meant, however, to reserve to himself the power of opposing any scheme as to the colonies which did not make a decent provision for the Church Establishment, and if no other purpose were answered than informing the public what was the policy of the Government as to the Colonies, he should obtain his end; for he believed that the inhabitants of this part of the empire were not acquainted with the real condition of the Colonies although the public had a right to know that, and particularly the state of religion in the Colonies, and to express their feelings on that subject. He then moved that the petition be laid on the table.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that as an alteration in regard to the grant for the ecclesiastical wants of the province of Upper Canada took place while he had the honour to hold the seals of the Colonial Department, it became his duty to trouble their Lordships with a few observations in ex-
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planation of the circumstances under which it took place. In the year 1817, a Committee of the House of Commons instituted an inquiry into the subject of colonial expenditure, and in the report which terminated its labours, there was to be found a paragraph containing a strong recommendation, to the effect that, as far as funds could be raised to meet them, each individual colony should be made to bear its own expense, whether as regarded the charges of Government, justice, or religion. In consequence of that report, the Government of the day thought it their duty to set about a narrow revision of the colonial expenditure, and, in consequence, each succeeding year the amount of the sums voted for colonial purposes out of the general revenue of the country materially diminished. In 1826, the question of the maintenance of religion, and the diffusion of religious instruction in the colonies, came under the consideration of the Government, and the result was, that a plan with that view was adopted, under which it was arranged that the yearly sum of 16,000 l. should be granted to the Society for the propagation of the Gospel, to be by it distributed among the colonies for religious purposes. It soon became obvious, indeed from the first it was anticipated, that the fair proportion of this sum, to which the province of Upper Canada was entitled, was inadequate to the wants of its population; and accordingly, in 1827, an Act was passed authorising the setting apart of a large mass of land, a portion of the two millions of acres granted by the Act of 1791, for the formation of a fund for ecclesiastical purposes. A fund having in this manner been created, and it appearing to him that it was most desirable with all dispatch to carry out the recommendations of the Committee of 1817, by making the colony, as far as possible, pay the expenses of the maintenance of its church, shortly after entering on the duties of the Colonial Department, he thought it his duty to suggest to the Governor of the colony, as the best mode of executing the purposes of 1791, to create rectories, and endow those rectories with a limited number of acres, applying to them money to bring them to a state of produce and income. According to his view of the subject, this plan would have most effectually met the object for which the original arrangement was proposed. The right rev. Prelate had stated, that the Church, by what had been done, had been left in

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state of complete destitution; but, in expressing that opinion, the right rev. Prelate seemed to have forgotten that the law had not been altered in a way to deprive the Church of the provision made for it by the Act of 1791. In sending out his instructions to the Governor, he had particularly directed him to keep in view the purposes for which that Act had been passed, and he believed his instructions had been religiously complied with. As yet, however, nothing had been done; for though the colonial government had taken the matter into consideration, their act had not yet received the sanction of the Imperial Parliament, and it would be quite competent for either House, should they so think fit, to reject it. He certainly concurred most cordially in the sentiments expressed by the right rev. Prelate as to the obligation on them to maintain in the colonies the Established Church; but in respect to those colonies which came into the possession of Great Britain by foreign conquest, there was in this respect very great difficulty, because no one of them surrendered without expressly stipulating for the maintenance and support of their religion; so that, in point of fact, the Church of England in those Colonies did not and could not stand identically on the same footing that it did in this country. In the province of Upper Canada there was the peculiarity of two established religions—the Catholic religion, which England had engaged to maintain, and the Protestant religion, as the religion of the mother country. In taking the course he did, he certainly did not believe, nor did he now, that he was doing anything to weaken the Church, or deprive it of its just influence; and, he might add, he was convinced that the plan he had suggested would, if acted upon, place it on a footing from which it could not be overturned.
Lord Glenelgobserved, that the subject now before their Lordships was of great importance, inasmuch as there was no point which so excited the feelings of all classes in the colonies as that relating to the support and maintenance of the different religious denominations. In deciding upon it much deliberation was necessary, and above all it was indispensable that the peculiar circumstances of the several colonies should be considered, and that as far as possible a deference should be shown for the opinions of the colonists themselves, as expressed by their local legislatures. The
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most rev. Prelate had observed on the great duty of improving the means of religious instruction in the colonies. He fully agreed with him on this head; but it was necessary in doing so to consider their means, and also that the colonists themselves had a right, and laid claim to the right, of deciding in what manner this should be done. The right rev. Prelate had alluded to the act of 1791, and had stated very generally that that act was passed to provide for the religious instruction of the people of Canada. He would shortly state what were the provisions of that act as it related to this subject. The act of 1791 provided that the one-seventh of every grant of land should be reserved for the support of the Protestant clergy. That act also provided for the establishment and endowment of rectories, which were to be given exclusively to the clergy of the Church of England. He should now state what might be called the historical facts relating to this subject. The act of 1791 appropriated two millions of acres to clergy reserves; but, in 1827, another act was agreed to, by which a sale of the clergy reserves was authorised, of 1,000 acres at a time, to the extent, on the whole, of one-fourth of the two million acres, and providing that the money should be transmitted to this country and placed in the funds with a view of being applied to the benefit of the clergy. In the year 1832 his noble Friend (Lord Ripon) recommended the House of Assembly to take into consideration the act of 1791, with a view to make such changes as were necessary for a proper disposition of the clergy reserves. His noble Friend suggested one mode of alteration, which was this: that the legislature of the colony should pass an act, transferring the reserves to the Crown, thus converting them into a part of the Crown land revenue. That was the suggestion which his noble Friend made to the House of Assembly; and it was important to remark that in referring that question to the Assembly his noble Friend only acted in accordance with the act of 1791, which expressly provided for the case of the local legislature altering or repealing that act so far as it related to the clergy reserves. The Assembly entertained the proposition, but no act was passed confirming it. So far from refusing to consider it, the subject was revived in two or three years, and in the very last session a bill was proposed for the transfer of these reserves to the

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Crown, which was lost only by one vote. He admitted that England was bound to redeem the pledge which she gave in 1791. As a member of the Church of England he was most anxious to promote the extension of that religion in all out colonies; but he must beg leave to observe that this was a question of considerable debate and discussion. He felt obliged to state, that it was by no meant admitted generally that the Church of England had an exclusive right to the clergy reserves. About 1823 a solemn claim was made by the Scotch church for a participation in the clergy reserves That claim was referred to the law-officer; of the Crown, Lord Gifford and Lori Lyndhurst; and it was their opinion that the act of 1791, giving the reserves for the support of the Protestant clergy, comprised the two established churches of Scotland and England. They were of opinion that the clause referring to endowments am rectories applied exclusively to the Church of England; but they declared that, with this exception, provision being made for the Protestant clergy meant those of the Scotch as well as of the English church The Committee which sat in 1828 expressed their entire agreement with an opinion of the law-officers of the Crown respecting rectories, and recommended that there should not be a complete exclusion of other denominations of Protestant clergy. Therefore it was perfectly clear that it was not an undisputed question that the Church of England had an exclusive right to the clergy reserves But even assuming that it was not questioned, he believed that Mr. Pitt and Lord Grenville, if they had been told forty years ago that the Assembly shout claim some voice in this matter, and that the various persuasions of Christian should put forward claims to the clergy reserves, and should appeal to the local Assembly to grant their demands, would have said, upon such a surmise being made "that is precisely the state of circumstances provided for in the act of 1791: we know how difficult it is to legislate upon such a subject for a population likely to increase to a vast extent, and how absurd it would be to fix and determine upon a new system when there are scarcely any inhabitants. To make a lay and declare it irrevocable, and like those of the Medes and Persians lay it down as binding for all ages, is an ambition which we do not possess; but looking to the progress of things, and to the certainty of a
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change of circumstances, we have made provisions in this act which will enable the local legislature not only to modify, but to vary or totally repeal it." It was quite inconsistent with this clause to assert that it was not competent to Parliament or to the local legislature to make any alteration that was deemed fit in the act of 1791 respecting the clergy reserves. How, then, stood at this moment the income which the Church of England received in Upper Canada? The most rev. Prelate had adverted to the mode in which the clergy of the Church of England were supported previous to that year, which was by Parliamentary grants out of the army extraordinaries. This was certainly a strange mode of supplying their grant to the clergy; and in the year 1832 it was determined that this demand should be included in the estimates, the Government giving a pledge that no fresh appointments should be subsequently put on the estimates, but that a reduction should be made, by large steps annually, and that finally the applications to Parliament should die away, on the removal or death of the incumbent. The Society for the Propagation of Christianity remonstrated most justly at the sudden defalcation which was caused in the resources for religious purposes. The consequence was an agreement of this nature: the Government undertook to support the whole of the clergy of Upper Canada, who had formerly been paid out of the vote for army extraordinaries, and the Society undertook to maintain those of the other North American colonies, and granted a sum for that purpose of 4,000 l. a-year. The amount which the clergy received consisted of the interest of the sum vested in the three per cents., which amounted to 6,000 l. a-year, and that not being sufficient, it was necessary to resort to the Crown revenues, out of which a sum was also paid of 2,500 l. Therefore, the total sum now devoted to the support of the clergy amounted to 8,500 l. a-year. Now, it must not be supposed that this sum was paid without creating discontent amongst the other religious denominations in the province. The members of the Church of Scotland felt most deeply on the subject. They presented many memorials to the colonial department, and last year they sent a deputation to the General Assembly of Scotland, which complained as loudly as the Church of England could do if similarly circumstanced, stating that they were deprived of their just right to a

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participation of the clergy reserves, which was sanctioned not only by the legal authorities to whom he had referred, but admitted by every successive Government. The General Assembly had accordingly taken up the subject very warmly, and the agitation on this subject might lead to petitions from other quarters. The Church of Scotland received from the Crown revenues in Upper Canada 1,500 l. a-year, and the clergy of the Synod of Ulster 700 l., making in all for the clergy of that class of religionists 2,200 l. The Catholics also received from the same source 1,500 l. a-year. Undoubtedly the members of the Scotch Church formed a numerous and powerful body in that colony. All these questions tended to involve this subject in very great difficulty and perplexity, which was not to be unravelled by the will of the Parliament of this country. No assembly was competent to deal properly with this question but the local legislature. But now it was proposed and urged, that additional funds should be given for the benefit of the Church of England. In speaking of that Church, he wished to observe what course had been taken with respect to the Bishop of Montreal. The late Bishop of Quebec, whose merits and character it was impossible to laud too highly, had a sum of 3,000 l. a-year granted him in the estimates. He stated his wish to have a coadjutor appointed, offering to give him 1,000 l. a-year out of his own income, upon being informed by the Government that they were under a pledge not to place a fresh appointment on the estimate for the constitution of a new bishopric. Dr. Mountain accordingly went to the bishopric of Quebec as coadjutor, receiving 1,000 l. a-year, and continuing to be paid 900 l. a-year as rector and archdeacon. Shortly after, the Bishop of Quebec died, and then the Government felt it very difficult to propose a vote for continuing his coadjutor's income to Parliament, and they certainly would not have done so if the situation of Lower Canada had been such as to admit a proposition being made for granting an income to the Bishop of Montreal. They felt, however, that without any departure from their engagements they might, under the circumstances, submit that a grant of 1,000 l. a-year should be made to the Bishop of Montreal, which would make his income the same as that which he received during the life of the Bishop of Quebec—about 2,000 l. a-year. But as it was agreed that the bishopric of Quebec
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should cease with the last holder, it was now proposed that a bishop should be appointed in the Upper Province. On this subject he had only to state, that if funds sufficient for such a purpose were found in the province, the object which was contemplated would be most desirable; but he confessed he did not see how this expense could be defrayed out of any resources but those at the lisposal of the local legislature. The clergy reserves and the Crown revenues were now placed under the control of the local assembly, and it would be impossible to interpose by an Act of the Parliament of this country for the appropriation of part of these funds to the purpose which he had mentioned. If provision could be made for this object out of the other revenues of the province, he should be pleased at the undertaking, and instructions were given to the governor to bring this subject especially under the notice of the Assembly. As to an application to Parliament, he did not think it advisable to make such an appeal, nor did he entertain strong hopes of its success, when it was considered that the subject was to be brought under the consideration of the Assembly, out of whose hands it would be ungracious and unfair to take it, particularly when it could not be known whether they would not provide most amply for the wants of the Church.
The Bishop of Londonhad only a few observations to offer to their Lordships, but they appeared to him to be of considerable importance. It was perfectly true, as had been stated by the noble Lord, that there was a clause in the Act, reserving to the local legislature the power of modifying or altering the provisions of the Act. That, it was quite clear, was prospective, and did not enable the Legislature to repeal the provisions of the Act. He (the Bishop of London) denied that the Imperial Parliament, even backed by the Colonial Legislature, had the power to do away with the provisions of that Act, as enforced with regard to the revenues of the Protestant clergy. One word upon the expression, "Protestant clergy." He did not mean to define whether the term applied singly to the clergy of the Established Church of England, or to the clergy of the Church of Scotland, or whether it did not include both. Two eminent lawyers, the then law officers of the Crown, had certainly held that the term included both. Another eminent lawyer, now holding a high judicial station in the country, was of an entirely different opinion. Such differ-

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ences of opinion appeared to him (the Bishop of London) clearly to show, that a question of that nature was not to be settled or determined by the opinions of the law officers of the Crown, or of lawyers, however eminent, but that it could only receive a final and satisfactory adjudication from the judicial tribunals of the country. With regard to the supposition that the term, "Protestant clergy" may include ministers of different denominations, he had one simple and conclusive answer to give. He defied the noble Lord to point out any statute in which the clergy of any other establishment were meant, except the clergy of the Established Church.
Lord Glenelgwas understood to say, that with respect to the clergy of the Church of Scotland, Government had ever since the period he alluded to assumed and acted upon the position, that the clergy of the Scottish Church were within the provisions of the Act.
Petition laid on the table.