Sitting of 11 April 1838

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Alderman WOOD, from the Printers of London, by Mr. DENNISTOUN, from those of Glasgow, by Mr. WAKLEY, from the Compositors of the Morning Advertiser, from the Printers in the employment of Messrs. Spottiswoode, Nicholls, M'Dowell, and White, and from the Stereotypers of London, by Lord DALMENY, from the Printers of Stirling, by Mr. EASTHOPE, from the Printers of Leicester, by Mr. D. W. HARVEY, from those of Southwark, and by Mr. P. THOMSON, from the Compositors of London and Manchester, against the Copyright Bill.—By Mr. HUME, from Shields, and by Mr. F. DUNDAS, from Stromness and Orkney, against any further Endowment to the Church of Scotland.—By Mr. WAKLEY, from.4,000 members of the Working Men's Association at Bristol, for a further extension of the elective Suffrage; from 1,160 inhabitants of Stockport, and from the Bricklayers of London and Manchester, and from other places, for an inquiry into the delay in sending back the Dorchester Labourers to England.—By Sir G. GREY, from Montreal, and from Quebec, for the junction of the two provinces of Canada under one form of Government—By Sir G. STRICKLAND, and Lord MORPETH, from the West Riding of Yorkshire, for the Immediate Abolition of the Apprenticeship system in the West Indies.—By Mr. P. THOMSON, from Manchester, to permit an Inland Bonding system.—By Mr. WILLIAM ROCHR, from parishes in Cork and Limerick, for an immediate settlement of the Tithe question.—By Mr. BLACKSTONE, from Wallingford, against the system of National Education in Ireland.—By Mr. CHALMERS, from Montrose, for the Abolition of Negro Apprenticeship; and from several Secession and Relief Congregations, against any further Endowment of the Church of Scotland.—By Mr. F. DUNDAS, from places in Yorkshire, against the Negro Apprenticeship system.—By Mr. BARNARD, from Deptford, complaining of the great expense of the Poor law Union.

DUTIES ON SILKS.
Sir F. Trenchsaid, he had a question to ask connected with the deplorable state of the Spital-fields manufacturers, 50,000 of whom were in a state of the deepest distress, and enduring sufferings of the most extraordinary description. He had seen a newspaper of that morning, containing a report of the debates in the French Chamber of Deputies, in which it was stated by M. Martin that the Agricultural Committee had expressed an opinion that it would be necessary to augment the duty upon linen. Now, if the French Government protected their hand-loom weavers, he thought the British Government ought to do the same. The question he wished to put was, whether it was the intention of Government to do anything towards protecting our own manufacturers, and towards mitigating the sufferings of that unfortunate class of the community?
Mr. Poulett Thomsonwished the hon. Gentleman had specified more clearly what his question was: but it appeared to him
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that the meaning of the question was, whether it was the intention of the Government to alter the duty upon silk goods? In answer to that question, he would say at once, that it was not the intention of the Government to do anything whatever that should increase the duty upon silk goods, or to alter the present state of the law, unless they were compelled to do so by political motives, or by the conduct of France with respect to the goods imported into that country. He would only add, that if the hon. Gentleman was of opinion that the alteration in the duties which had taken place, and the change of system on the subject of the silk manufactures had proved injurious to the trade of this country, he would recommend the hon. Gentleman to bring forward a motion on the subject, and he (Mr. P. Thomson) would pledge himself to prove, that, so far from having been injurious, it had been highly beneficial to the silk trade of this country.

SUPPLY—REPORT.
The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought up.
Mr. Humesaid, that having seen in the public papers a declaration of Mr. Hyam that the revenue was 665,000 l. less than the actual expenditure, he thought it time that the House should come to some resolution respecting pensions, so as to postpone the paying of them, until they knew how they were to be provided for. He wished to know in what way, if they voted this 33,000 l. for the payment of pensions, that payment was to be provided for?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he was sorry that the hon. Gentleman had asked a question which it would be difficult to answer satisfactorily, without going into more detail than the mere circumstance of the present vote enabled him to do; but, at the same time, if the question remained unanswered, or any doubt was thrown on the subject, he felt that a very great mistake might arise in the public mind. It was perfectly true, as the hon. Member had stated, and indeed it was nothing but repeating what he had stated on a recent occasion, namely, that it was impossible for a great commercial crisis like that through which this country had passed to occur without affecting the public revenue. If, on that account, there was felt ally, even the slightest, mistrust of the national resources of the country—if

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it were felt, that that cause to which he had adverted had created anything like distrust respecting the resources of England, he should think that such a mistake produced in the public mind would be as great as it was mischievous. Any Gentleman conversant with the state of England in the course of the last six or eight, and he might say, twelve months, he must feel at once gratification and pride in thinking that they had weathered the enormous difficulties that pressed upon this country by these events, without much more of suffering, and without much more of loss, than that entailed on this country and upon individuals. In the course of the last year Gentlemen were aware that we had to encounter commercial circumstances which were almost unexampled in the commercial history of England. The resources of her mercantile bodies, and of the public generally, had enabled the country to go through that very severe trial. But it was not simply to this that the result was to be referred, for he must say, and he said it the more freely, because it referred to the transactions of another country, that the efforts of the American people in the discharge of their commercial engagements had been such as to reflect the highest credit upon them. Under these circumstances the pressure, though it had produced very great loss to the country, and much of calamity to individuals, and had kept back the progress of our manufacturing industry, and though it had acted upon our foreign power, and through it upon our commerce, it had yet produced much less of mischief than might have been expected. The result, undoubtedly, according to the existing state of the revenue, as lie should have occasion to state more fully hereafter upon a review of the transactions of the last year, was anything but satisfactory; but it was going too far to consider that because it was not satisfactory, and because there was a deficiency of two millions, that therefore any, even the slightest degree of distrust was to be cast upon the means which this country possessed to discharge its obligations. The hon. Gentleman had stated that, comparing the revenue of one year with the other, there was a deficiency of over two millions. This was perfectly true; but the hon. Member knew full well that he was comparing two things between which there was no fair measure. The hon. Member knew that
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they had anticipated revenue in the course of that year, in the tea duty alone, which made a difference on the year of between 1,200,000 l. and 1,500,000 l. When the hon. Member saw this large deduction, he ought, in order to balance the account justly, to make a corresponding reduction from the revenue of the first year, as otherwise they could not be justly compared. But even, after making this deduction, there would be a falling-off in the revenue, which would impose upon him the responsibility of explaining the causes thereof to the House upon a future occasion; but he would say, that he did not think there was anything in this to discourage either the House or the public with respect to the general revenue of the country; much less did he think that it imposed any difficulty in the way of providing for the pensions, which was the object of the particular question before the House. He regretted that it was not possible for him to lay before the House that evening, but immediately after the adjournment of the House he should be able to lay upon the table of the House, not the mere account which the hon. Member for Kilkenny had referred to, but a statement of a balance sheet up to April the 4th, which would show the difference between the income and the expenditure of the country. This would put the House in full possession of the whole of the facts, and would, he hoped, give the fullest satisfaction on the subject. He would very much urge upon hon. Members, if they wished to put questions of this kind, not to-put them in a manner which would lead to inferences that would excite a great deal of alarm out of doors, and create despondency where there was no real ground for it. When the balance-sheet was in the hands of hon. Members, they would be better able to understand the subject, and he would be better qualified to give them information than he was at the present moment.
Mr. Humehad no wish to enter into the general state of the revenue; all he wished to know was, how, when there was a deficiency of 665,000 l., they were to provide for the payment of pensions to the amount of 33,000 l.? Did the right hon. Gentleman mean to borrow money, or in what way was this money to be obtained, when it was evident there was no money in the Treasury?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid,

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that the hon. Member had confounded two things. He begged to remind the House that the declaration with respect to the revenue at a particular time could not refer to the state of the revenue now. He did not mean to state that the revenue was in a better condition; but the declaration of Mr. Hyam referred to an antecedent state of the revenue, namely, the account for the last quarter. That declaration, therefore, referred to the income and expenditure of a by-gone time. In reply to the question of the hon. Member, he begged to say, that he intended to provide for the payment of this vote by the issue of deficiency bills, payable with interest. The very case that had arisen was provided for in that respect by the law of the land as it stood. But there was great difficulty in answering such questions without going into details, and he would only say, that there was nothing in the slightest degree to create any permanent alarm or apprehension in the mind of any Gentleman whatever; and he only regretted, that questions were put in a manner which, if left unexplained and unanswered, might create alarm.
Mr. Humesaid, that if the right hon. Gentleman had spoken out at first he should have understood him. He now understood that the right hon. Gentleman would borrow from the Bank the amount of the deficiency.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, it was very natural that hon. Members should wish to know how the sums required for present expenditure were to be paid in the present state of the revenue. With respect to the question of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, he thought the House ought not to adjourn till they had received a more satisfactory account, in detail, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman did not like to go into these details; he believed not, and he believed also, that if they had a statement of the real facts of the revenue, it would be found to be in a worse condition than at almost any former period. He thought it was the duty of the right hon. Gentleman to state what were the sources from which he intended to pay this sum of 33,000 1.
Mr. Humesaid, he would not now make any objection to the vote, although he thought it was inconsistent with the interests of the public to vote so large a sum for such a purpose, when there was a deficiency in the revenue of no less than
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600,000 l., and they knew the money was to be borrowed. That was a bad way of managing the finances of the country. He trusted that when the House met after the recess, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be in a situation to free himself from the necessity of borrowing from the Bank. In his opinion it was a bad system, as it enabled Ministers to borrow from the Bank without the knowledge of that House, which ought never to be the case. Before he sat down, he wished to ask another question. When the hon. Member for Greenock brought forward charges againt the Post-office at Glasgow, he stated that a practice existed there of opening letters and extracting money. A statement was made that no such practice existed. Within the last month discoveries had taken place of great abuses in the Post-office department at Glasgow. He wished to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman had directed the department acting under him to institute an inquiry into that proceeding, and that it might be public, because on a former occasion, when abuses had been proved to exist, an inquiry was instituted and kept secret for four or five years, and the public knew nothing of it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he had not received any report of the particular transaction to which the hon. Gentleman referred. In consequence, however, of the conversation that occurred in that House, he had given directions to carry into effect two of the recommendations that had been made. One was the registration of letters, which was a matter of very considerable importance, as the party, by registering the letter, could make the Post-office responsible for its safe delivery. He had also established, as part of the Post-office, a money-order officer, thus enabling the poorer classes to ensure the safe delivery of the smallest sum to the party entitled to receive it. These two recommendations had been already adopted. With respect to the transactions at Glasgow, an immediate inquiry should be instituted.
Report agreed to.

MINUTES.
Bills. Received the Royal Assent:—Slavery Abolition Act Amendment; Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Annual Indemnity; First Fruits and Tenths.
Petitions presented. By Lord KING, from Chorley, and another place, for the immediate abolition of Negro Slavery.

THE CORONATION.
The Marquess of Londonderrywas sorry that the noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government was not present, as he wished to elicit information on a subject of considerable importance. It was with great regret he perceived, from the proclamation which had appeared in the Gazette, that it was in the contemplation of her Majesty's Ministers to follow, in the ensuing Coronation, the precedent which had been set at the coronation of his late Majesty. He wished, therefore, distinctly to know, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Ministers to pursue the same line as to the forms to be observed on this occasion which had been adopted at the last coronation, or whether those ceremonies would be observed which were formerly considered indispensable? In the present instance, he confessed he was of opinion, when a young and illustrious personage was coming to the throne—when it was unlikely that another coronation would take place for many years—when, most probably, few of their Lordships would witness another, that the ceremony should be marked by royal splendor and magnificence. In his view of the subject royalty ought not to be shorn of its beams on this occasion. Any diminution of proper splendor would not
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be consisten with the dignity of this great and loyal country. He would say more, that such a species of economy as would effect a small saving by omitting a considerable part of the ceremony, would be in every respect objectionable. When a gorgeous embassy was sent to a foreign nation, when the representative of majesty was present at the coronation of a foreign potentate, he could see no reason why there should be any diminution of splendor on this occasion. They were, on the contrary, bound in duty to see that the august ceremony of the coronation in this country was celebrated with due magnificence, and that the whole of the customary forms were preserved. Such being his opinion, he should think it his duty on a future day to submit a motion to their Lordships on the subject. If ever there was a moment when all parties with one accord joyfully hailed the commencement of an auspicious reign—if ever there was a moment when all parties were anxious to see the coronation celebrated in the most splendid manner that this country was capable of affording—it was the present moment. And more especially when they looked around them, and saw the desire of change and innovation which was daily gaining ground, they ought at such a period to testify their veneration for those ancient marks of outward respect which were connected with the august ceremony of the coronation. He felt very strongly on the subject, and his determination was, on a very early day after the recess, to offer to their Lordships some motion on the subject.
The Marquess of Lansdowneregretted that his noble Friend was not present to hear the observations of the noble Earl. His noble Friend was not aware that any business would be brought forward; and, after waiting a quarter of an hour, he had gone away, having a pressing engagement elsewhere. As to the matter to which the noble Marquess had alluded, it was not necessary that he should reply to the observations of the noble Marquess, as it was the intention of the noble Marquess to bring the question forward after the recess. With respect to the arrangement, it had certainly been notified in the Gazette, that the precedent of the last reign, by which the banquet in Westminster-hall was dispensed with, would be followed. But still the matter was open for consideration.
The House adjourned to April 27th for the Easter holidays.