Sitting of 4 April 1838

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Cork Sessions; Sheriffs' (Ireland).—Read a first time:—Sale of Bread (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By Captain ALSAGHER, from Tooting, in favour of the rating of Tenements Bill; and from certain Protestants, against further concession to the Catholics—By Mr. FERGUSON, from Kirkaldy, and another place in Scotland, against any further Endowments in the Church of Scotland—By Mr. C. FERGUSSON, from Kircudbright, complaining of the present high rates of Postage—By Colonel BUTLER, from five places in Kilkenny, for Corporation Reform—By Captain ELLIOT, from Derry Island, against the system of National Education in Ireland.—By Mr. TURNER, from Bradford, for a repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Mr. WAKLEY, from the Working Men's Association in Stirling, against additional Endowments to the Church of Scotland; and from Printers and others in the employment of Messrs. Bradbury and Evans, against the Copyright Bill.—By Sir W. BRABAZON, from the Rector of Balla (Mayo), for an equitable adjustment of Irish Tithes.—By Mr. BAINES, from two places in Yorkshire, and by Mr. CODRINGTON, from Lewisham, for the immediate abolition of Negro Apprenticeship.—By Captain MEYNELL, from the Clergy of the Diocese of Down and Connor, against the present system of National Education in Ireland.—By Mr. E. TENNENT, from several places in the North of Ireland, against some of the provisions of the Medical Charities Bill.—By Mr. F. DUNDAS, from places in Scotland, against the granting of further Endowments to the Church of Scotland.—By Mr. PENDARTES, from Redruth, against the Order in Council of the 18th of July, 1837, for the Importation of Hindoos into British Guiana.

PROTECTION OF BRITISH MANUFACTURES.
Mr. Hawkesmoved the second reading of the British Manufacturers' Protection Bill. The Bill was one which affected the vital interests of this great empire, and in which the labouring classes were closely identified, and he trusted, that the House would permit him to enter into a brief statement of the grievances that the present bonding system inflicted on the manufacturers of British hardware. Foreigners made a practice or trade of bonding goods, and exporting them as British, manufacture, with the names and
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marks of our most celebrated manufacturers, not only to their detriment, but to that of the numerous working classes employed by them. He considered it an imperative duty on a British Legislature to protect equally the interests of parties which constituted our national prosperity, and he called on the House to protect the various branches of trade now affected by the present bonding system. Though he did not wish to interfere with the free-trade system on reciprocal and equitable principles, yet he relied on the good sense of the House for the protection of the British manufacturers and distressed operatives, particularly at a crisis when trade was greatly oppressed. The hardware trades of Sheffield, and other places, suffered particularly by these practices, and in those places it would be a felony for a British subject to forge the names or marks of those who were entered at the Cutlers'-hall. Yet such was the fact, that agents were employed in this country for the sale of hardware and cutlery manufactured by the Belgians and Germans, bearing our marks and names, bonded and exported from this country in British bottoms to our colonies as British manufacture, to make the fraud complete. He should reserve himself for further comments for the Committee.
Bill read a second time.

PRISONS (SCOTLAND).
Mr. F. Maulemoved the second reading of the Prisons (Scotland) Bill.
Captain Gordonhad no objection to a uniform system of prison discipline in Scotland under the authority of a Central Board of Commissioners, but then the powers of those Commissioners should be limited. What he objected to in this Bill was, that an irresponsible board should have the power of assessing the people of Scotland to the amount of 30,000 l. a-year. It was not his intention to oppose the second reading, but he hoped it would not be passed through Committee without giving hon. Members and the country time to judge of its merits.
Mr. Lockharthad several clauses to propose in Committee, but would not object to the Bill being read a second time.
Mr. Pringleobjected to the Central Committee, but should not offer any opposition to the Bill in its present stage.
Mr. Maulesaid the Bill was introduced early last Session. Its principles had been affirmed by the House, and it was referred

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to a Select Committee. It was considered and much amended in its details by that Committee. Much opposition had been given to it by the country gentlemen of Scotland; but that opposition was now much mitigated. To establish one uniform system through the country a central board was absolutely necessary. And as for the mode of taxation objected to, it was provided by the twenty-second clause, that before taxation could be levied, the board would be obliged to make out an estimate of the funds required, which estimate was to be sent to the Secretary of State, who would lay it before Parliament, so that the board would not be enabled to proceed with any taxation until it had been before the public. Although 30,000 l. seemed a large sum in the abstract, he considered it very small when the object to gain was considered. The report of Mr. Hill on the state of the Scotch prisons sufficiently proved the necessity of some measure. Under these circumstances, he hoped the Bill would be read a second time, and to give ample time for its consideration he would propose its committal for the second Wednesday in May. By that time he hoped the opposition to its details would be mitigated.
Sir R. Peeladmitted, that some legislation was necessary on this subject, as, in a country like Scotland, where the prisons were necessarily small, the discipline was generally lax, It was only in large societies that public opinion exercised any influence. In some of the prisons in Scotland only two, three, or four inmates were generally to be found, and the office of gaoler almost fell into desuetude. It might not be objectionable to have a Central Committee or Board in the metropolis, which might afford the benefit of its experience to the more remote districts, and wean them from their too great leaning towards existing systems. He did not, however, think it desirable to supersede altogether the influence of country gentlemen, and it was with some concern he had heard that the gentlemen of Scotland had so much withdrawn themselves from all public business, He admitted, that a board of central control would possess great advantages, but if it altogether superseded the interference of the country gentlemen he feared the advantages would be purchased at too high a price. However well the system might work at first they would ultimately have reason to regret that the gentlemen of the Country were precluded from interference.
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There was one part of the Bill which required serious consideration, because of the principle which was involved in it, and which might involve a dangerous precedent. He meant that part which related to assessments of entire districts. This arbitrary imposition of a tax was contrary to all constitutional principle. It might be said, that the amount was limited; but still the argument as to the principle was left untouched. If the principle were once admitted, it might be extended to the turnpike-roads, bridges, and all other local purposes, which were now under the control of bodies in general of a representative character. Then, if the argument against the principle could be got over, there were some objections as to detail. Some counties might already be well provided with prisons, and others might be deficient. If the assessment were to spread equally over districts those counties which had already made sufficient provision would naturally complain at being mulcted to make up for the deficiencies of those who had been negligent. Either it should be this, or the Commissioners must have a discretion to pronounce upon the counties, whether they were well or ill provided with prisons, and average accordingly the proportions to be paid. Where a distinction was thus made it would be difficult to come to a point which would give satisfaction to both parties. One party would think, that their prisons were not sufficiently valued, whilst the others would be of opinion that they had been rated too highly. He threw out these suggestions for the consideration of the House, and would conclude by again recommending that in any measure for the regulation of prisoners they would endeavour to win over the assistance of the local authorities, by inviting them to take a share in the control.
Mr. R. Steuartsaid, the remarks of the right hon. Baronet were of a very useful kind, and he was sure that his hon. Friend would give them his immediate consideration. The difficulties involved in the question of assessment had been felt and duly considered, and the result was, that the difficulties attending every other plan that had been brought forward were found to be greater than those attending the plan proposed in the Bill. He would, however, willingly agree to any other practicable mode of assessment, and he should feel great pleasure if, by giving the power to the head courts or otherwise, the rate-payers should be enabled to tax themselves.
The Attorney-Generalfully agreed with the right hon. Baronet that local assessments should be laid by those who contributed to them; but at present those assessments were levied by officers appointed by the Crown, while the persons in whom it was proposed to vest the power would be appointed by Parliament. As representative of a very large constituency, he begged to thank his hon. Friend for the pains he had taken in preparing this Bill, and on the happiness it was likely to confer.
Bill read a second time.

MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND).
Mr. Frenchmoved the second reading of the Medical Charities (Ireland) Bill. He said, he had already explained to the House the object and nature of this Bill, and should not detain them by a repetition of his former statements. He was glad an opportunity was at last afforded him of drawing attention to the wretched condition of the sick poor of Ireland, and to the necessity of establishing a systematic and efficient plan of public medical aid. The subject of medical reform was not only important in its nature, but difficult in its execution; it was, he assured hon. Members, no easy matter to effect such a change as would at once promote the public welfare and secure the approval of the members of the medical profession, both of which, he frankly admitted, he considered it desirable to accomplish, if possible. It might be supposed, from there not being any connexion between political controversy and medical reform, that the subject of this Bill was one which could be debated on neutral ground, free from excitement of any kind; he was not, however, sanguine enough to suppose that a question affecting several influential interests, could be free from the irritation which usually followed the collision of hostile opinions, and, indeed, the petitions already presented to the House, and some publications sent forth to the world, showed that some angry feeling did exist amongst the parties immediately interested. Differing, however, as to the expediency of the contemplated alterations, all had concurred in admitting that a change of the present system had become indispensable; in the present thin state of the House, he did not deem it advisable to detain them by enumerating the different Acts of Parliament under which existing medical institutions were founded, nor should he enter on any general history of the
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medical profession, although it might serve to enliven the dull detail he should be obliged to trouble them with. He should go at once to the Bill, the second reading of which he was about to move, and to his doing so he did not anticipate any objection. Some Members might differ with him as to its details, but he did not imagine they would refuse their assent to its principle, which was to establish a competent professional inspection over the medical charities in Ireland, the only species of relief as yet afforded to the poor of that country. His only object was, that that relief should be properly administered and proportioned to the necessities of the people, neither of which it at present was; but although the medical charities were far from sufficient to afford adequate relief to the sick poor in Ireland, they were numerous, being between six and seven hundred, and a sum of 175,000 l. was annually expended on their maintenance. From them upwards of a million and a half of persons annually obtained aid. Of these, including intern and extern patients, 146,000 were relieved by the infirmaries, the medical officers of which were gentlemen of a very superior class of education. About 17,000 were relieved by the fever hospitals and lunatic asylums; the remainder, considerably upwards of a million, depended solely on the dispensaries; the funds of which, he regretted to say, were frequently injudiciously applied, or grossly abused, and for the discharge of the medical duties of which no professional qualification whatsoever was requisite. Doctor Corr, Doctor Barrett, Surgeon Roney, and others, had pointed out numerous instances of persons presiding over dispensaries, not having any licence to practise as a physician, as a surgeon, or as an apothecary. It could not, then, be a matter of surprise to the House to learn from the medical reports which have been for some time before them, that with regulations so defective and an administration, if possible, still more loose and objectionable, abuses had arisen by which the funds destined for the relief of the sick poor were diverted to selfish purposes, and that a number of persons whose circumstances should place them beyond anything resembling gratuitous relief, now absorbed the funds, and occupied the time of the medical attendants of these institutions—time and funds which should be devoted exclusively to the sick poor, who were alone the legitimate objects of this species of relief.
Sir E. Sugdeninterrupted the hon. Member, stating, that as there could be no objection to the principle of the Bill, he thought it would be better, as the House was so thin, to take the second reading as a matter of course, and reserve the discussion until the Bill was in Committee.
Mr. Lucassaid, that he was favourable to the principle of the Bill, but as the House was so thin he suggested that the Bill should be read a second time, and reserve the discussion for the Committee.
Mr. Warburtonthought, that the House would not really be doing justice to the subject, which was a very important one, if it permitted the second reading to take place without a discussion. He was himself so far favourable to the principle of the Bill, that he thought that a superintending authority was required for the medical charities in Ireland; but then he differed in opinion with the hon. Mover of the Bill, as to the manner of carrying that principle into execution. On that account he must object to many clauses that were in the Bill. If the hon. Member went on, and if he had an opportunity of making a statement as a supporter of the Bill, it would not be right to allow the Bill to have a second reading without there being any answer to that statement.
Viscount Morpethremarked, that his hon. Friend who had moved the second reading, waved his statement, upon the understanding that a discussion should take place at a future time. Perhaps, then, the hon. Member for Bridport would not object to the Bill going through a second reading that night, upon the understanding that an opportunity for debate would be given on the motion for going into Committee. He could assure that hon. Member, that although he wished the Bill to be read a second time, yet there were many provisions in it which he should not give any pledge that he would be found to support
Mr. Warburtonremarked, that there was only one inconvenience in the course suggested by the noble Lord, and if it could be obviated he would mike no objection to the course proposed. What was wished for was, that the arguments of those who were in favour of the Bill, and also the arguments of them who objected to it, should go forth to the public; and then that some interval of time would be allowed to elapse between the day upon which that discussion took place, and the day upon which the proceedings in the
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Committee should begin. The inconvenience the course suggested might be, that no interval would be allowed between one period and the other. If the understanding was as to the proceeding in Committee, that the discussion should take place on the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair, and then that the Bill should not be immediately committed, but that there should be an interval between that and the day for the Bill going into Committee, he should not object to any such course; but then the interval ought to be not less than a fortnight or three weeks.
Mr. Wakleyfelt the bill to be so objectionable in character, that if he possibly could, he would not permit one clause of it to be carried; and the principles of the hon. Gentleman's measure were so odious, that he must then notice that there were not forty Members present.
House counted out.