Sitting of 30 November 1837

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—On the motion of Mr. BAINES, Municipal Officers Declaration.—Read a first time:—On the motion of Mr. LEFEVRE, Highway-rate Application.—On the motion of Mr. E. ELLICE, Salmon Fisheries Protection (Scotland).
Petitions presented. By Sir THOMAS ACLAND, from the Dean and Chapter of Wells, against uniting the two Sees of Carlisle, and of Sodor and Man.—By Sir ROBERT INGLIS, from Wem, in Shropshire, to the same purpose.

CONDITION OF THE LABOURING CLASSES.
Mr. Slaneyrose to move to a Select Committee to inquire into the condition of the labouring classes, with a view to devising some means of national education. He was sorry to bring forward his motion in the absence of the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, as that noble Lord was particularly interested in the subject. He had intended to move for leave to bring in a Bill on the subject; but, in deference to one for whose opinions he had great respect, he had abandoned that intention. It would be his duty, in the first place, to bring under the notice of the House the vast increase which had taken place in the more humble portion of the community, especially in large towns; and, in the second place, he would show that their condition had not been improved in the same ratio as that of the other classes, more especially with respect to the education of their children. He would have to trouble the House with some details upon the subject, as there were so many new Members who might be unacquainted with the immense increase which had taken place in the manufacturing population, and the absolute necessity there was for a better system of education for those classes. As compared with the agricultural population, the manufacturing classes were in 1801 as 6 to 5, in 1811 as 9 to 7, in 1821 as 8 to 5, while in 1837 they had increased to more than 2 to 1. In the thirty years the increase in the agricultural population had been 45 per cent. while the manufacturing classes had increased upwards of 100 per cent. He had made an estimate of five of the largest
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towns in the country. The increase had been during the thirty years as follows:—In Manchester from 1801 to 1811, the increase had been 22 per cent; from 1811 to 1821, 40 percent; and from 1821 to 1831, 47 per cent. In Glasgow the increase during the first period had been 30 per cent; during the second period, 46 per cent; and, in the third period, 38 per cent. In Birmingham during the same periods the increase had been 16, 24, and 33 per cent. In Leeds the increase in the first period had been 18 per cent; in the second period, 30 per cent; and in the third period 47 per cent. In Liverpool the increase had been in the first period 26 per cent., in the second 31, and in the third 44. Thus, in the five largest towns of the United Kingdom, excluding the metropolis, the increase had been, in the first of the three periods at an average of 22 per cent; in the second ten years, 37 per cent; and in the last 42 per cent. In the manufacturing counties the increase had been to that of the agricultural counties in the following ratios:—In Staffordshire 3 to 1; in Warwickshire, 4 to 1; in the West Riding of Yorkshire, 6 to 1; in Lancashire 10 to 1; in Middlesex, 12 to l. He would not take up the time of the House by dwelling upon the importance to the country at large of those articles of import to the working up of which the manufacturing portion of the population owed its prosperity. But he wished especially to call the attention of hon. Members to the great increase which had, in the meantime, taken place in the means of comfort and luxury which were at the command of the rich and middle classes. If, however, for a moment they turned their attention from the lower to the middle class, they would see that during the last 13 or 14 years the command which the latter had acquired over the luxuries, the comforts, and the decencies of life had greatly exceeded the corresponding advantages to the humbler portion of the community. This was most clearly shown by the amount of taxation, for example, on stage-coaches, it had doubled, on one-horse carriages it had increased two-fifths, on male servants one-fourth; on horses, on tea, sugar, and coffee, the increase had been proportion-ably great. Now, if they contrasted this state of things as regarded the middle class with the condition of the lower orders, they must perceive, that however

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they might see grounds to rejoice at the advantages enjoyed by the one, they could not but deeply lament the condition of the other. Of people dwelling in the large towns there were two classes, the skilled and the unskilled; and while he acknowledged that the skilled had in many instances improved in condition, and had a greater command over the necessaries of life than at any former period, he should be enabled to show to the House that the unskilled had many privations, and even those in the command of higher wages were worse off' than at former periods; or if not worse off, in that low state which called upon them to endeavour to do something for their improvement. Without going into details, he would refer those interested in the condition of the working classes to different reports on their condition—to the report upon education—the Factory Commissioners' Report in 1833—the report upon manufacturing employment, 1830,—and the report upon the handloom weavers, 1834. In the latter report it was stated that there were no less than 800,000 weavers dependent upon this employment, in a most miserable condition. From a return by the Statistical Society of Manchester it appeared, that in the town of Manchester one-tenth of the entire population lived in cellars, and in Liverpool, one-seventh, that was to say, 31,000 lived in cellars, and most of them in courts with only one outlet. From a close examination of 166 houses in Bristol, it appeared one-third were without drains, half of them without water, and 200 children above seven years old were sleeping in the same room with their parents. In a district in Marylebone, that opulent parish, there were 578 families, 380 of whom had only one room. It might be stated that if he turned to the increase of deposits in savings banks, he would find that the humbler classes had improved in their condition; but when the return came to be analysed it would appear that the proportionate number of deposits from the workmen in the staple trades of large towns was very small. At the last meeting of the British Association, in Liverpool, Mr. Felkin had read an analysis of the depositors in the saving-banks at Nottingham, which had been published in the Statistical Journal, and from this it appeared that out of 6,100 only 910 were connected with the staple
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trade of the place. In respect to those of the humble classes engaged in friendly societies the amount deposited in 1830 was 714,000 l.,, and the number of the depositors 4,553; and in 1836 the amount of deposits had only increased to 726,000, the number of depositors to 5,300, an increase very small in six years. He would now call their attention to the number of criminals committed in England and Wales, which in the year 1805 was 4,600; in 1810,5,100; in 1815, 7,800; in 1821, 13,000; in 1828, 16,500; in 1831, 19,600; and in 1832, 20,000, The number had increased in the following years, and had very little diminished down to the present moment. That was to say, that in 20 years (from 1810 to 1832) the committals had increased fourfold, while the population had only increased 32 per cent. If they took the average of seven years, the first at 1819, the second at 1826, and the third at 1833, they would find that in the first period the number of committals had been 72,000; in the second period 95,000; and, in the third period, it had increased to 131,000—so that, while the population had increased in the same period only 18 per cent. the committals for crime had been 90 per cent. Taking the numbers as compared with the population, it would appear that the committals for crime in 1811 had been one in 1,600; in 1821 it had been 1 in 860, and in 1831 it had been 1 in 686. The number had been something smaller in the last year, but it was by no means satisfactory evidence of an improvement in the condition of the people. It varied from 100 per cent. diminution in Northamptonshire to an increase in Staffordshire and Warwickshire of from 10 to 19 per cent. He held in his hand a rather curious return from the metropolitan police offices, from which it appeared that in the year 1831 the number committed was 72,800, and in the year 1832 it was 77,500. The particular class he wished to call the attention to, was those committed for drunkenness, of them it appeared there were, in 1831,23,700, and in 1832, 25,700. There had been since then, he was happy to say, a decrease in the number of committals. This decrease, however, was principally to be accounted for by the improved state and strictness of the police. He next wished to call their attention to the state of Liverpool, and he regretted that he did

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not see the noble Lord, the Member for that town in his place, as he was sure he would bear him out in the statement he was about to make. By a return laid before the statistical section of Liverpool, it appeared that out of a population of 230,000 the criminal population of that town was 4,500 males and 4,300 females. He wished now to call their attention to the proportion of crime to the population in different parts of the kingdom. In England and Wales it was 1 in 619. In Bristol 1 in 219. In the county of Middlesex, 1 in 336. In the county of Lancaster, 1 in 480. In the county of Chester, 1 in 490. In Hereford, 1 in 508; and in the county of Anglesea, 1 in 8,000. There was now another subject to which, after stating the vat increase of crime, he wished to call their attention. He held in his hand a return of the number of gallons of spirits which had been used in the United Kingdom for the last twenty years. In 1817, there were used 9,200,000 gallons; in 1827, 18,230,000; in 1837, 29,227,000—that was to say, the consumption of spirits had trebled in twenty years, while the population had increased only one-third. The result, therefore, was, that the consumption of spirits had increased in a nine-fold degree with respect to the population. A statement had been made by a Gentleman well-known for his accuracy relative to the consumption of spirits, and according to that calculation the consumption of spirits had increased to such a degree that every person who was more than twelve years of age consumed no less than a gallon and a half of raw spirits per annum. He should feel indebted to hon. Members who would answer that statement satisfactorily. He could not but think that it was necessary to direct the attention of Parliament to this subject, because he was convinced that the statements he was about to make were inconsistent with the welfare and happiness of the people. He had stated, that the amount of the consumption of spirits was no less than a gallon and a half per head. But if the House were to look to the calculation in another point of view, and consider who really were the consumers of spirits, they would find that the amount was increased nearly double. Some persons were willing to cast, great blame upon the humble classes for their indulgence in spirits; but it should be remem-
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bered that spirits were, in fact, the poor man's opium. It was spirits that gave him some little relaxation from the misery by which he was surrounded. Having adverted to the state of the parents, he would next, with the leave of the House, make a few observations relative to their children. In speaking of the education of the lower classes, he could not but feel the great debt of gratitude that was due to a noble Lord (Lord Brougham) for the great exertions that he had made to improve their education. He could not help also mentioning the name of the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse), to whom great praise was due for his exertions in the cause of the poor. He would not found his data upon those returns alone that had been made relative to Manchester and some of the large towns, as they had been shown to be defective, but would refer to returns which he knew to be accurate, and which he would confidently state, deserved the attention of the House. As there were no general returns upon the subject he was compelled to avail himself of those partial returns which he had been able to procure. He would trouble the House with reading some extracts from a publication issued from the statistical society, relative to the condition of the labouring poor. The hon. Member read a comparative statement of the numbers of the labouring poor in the towns of York, Bury, Manchester, Liverpool, and the township of Ashton and Staley Bridge. For the purpose of showing the state of education in these populations he had taken the proportions of the numbers of those who received instruction in public or private schools. He had divided the instructed part of the labouring people into two classes—those who went to day schools, and those who went to Sunday schools. In the city of York, those who went to day schools were to the rest of the population in the ratio of 17 per cent., whilst those who attended Sunday schools were only 3 per cent., making a total of 20 per cent. In Bury, the attendants of the day schools were 13 per cent., of the Sunday schools 15½ per cent., making the total of those who received instruction of any kind in this large town only 28 and a fraction per cent. In Manchester and Salford, 10½ per cent. went to the day schools, and 11½ per cent. to the Sunday schools, making a total of 22 per cent.

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In Liverpool, the attendants at the day schools were 12½ per cent., at the Sunday schools only 1½; total, 14 per cent. In Bolton, 6 per cent. went to the day schools, and to Sunday schools 15½ per cent., making a total of 21½ per cent. In the large commercial town of Bristol, but 4½ per cent. of its population received the benefits of instruction in the daily schools; and only 8½ percent, attended the Sunday schools, making a total of 13 per cent. In Ashton and Staley Bridge, the Sunday schools were attended by not quite 3 per cent., but the Sunday schools showed a rate of 23 percent., making a total for this township of not quite 26 per cent. And in the five parishes of Westminster, the proportion of those who attended day schools was, to the whole population of the city, no more than 10 per cent., whilst those who attended Sunday schools were only 3 per cent. It appeared, therefore, from those returns, that the number of those who went to any kind of school was, in York only as 1 in 5 to the population of that city; in Bury, as 1 in 3½; in Manchester, as 1 in 4½; in Liverpool, as 1 in 7; in Bolton, as 1 in 5; in Bristol, as 1 in 7; in Ashton and Staley Bridge, as I in 4; and in Westminster, as 1 in 8; but, however valuable the instruction in Sunday schools might be, no one could think that Sunday instruction alone could be sufficient. It appeared from this report, that in many cases the school-rooms were so small and badly ventilated, that the atmosphere was quite oppressive and dangerous. In one instance forty children were found in a room only ten feet by nine'; and in another a perch was discovered with a cock and two hens upon it in one corner of the room, and a dog kennel in the other. The vast proportion of children who went today schools received no instruction at all worthy of the name, speaking of Manchester, Liverpool, Salford, &c. The greater portion of the teachers were quite incompetent to their task, and in many cases were only induced to undertake it because unable in any other way to support themselves. One master being asked if he used the globes in teaching geography, replied in the affirmative, adding that one globe was for one half of the earth, and the other for the other half. Another was asked did he teach reading, writing, Latin, Greek, &c, answered "Yes," to every query, and the visitor exclaiming "Multum in parvo," he eagerly said,
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"Yes—you may put that down too." In another instance a mistress said she gave the children instruction both as Protestants and Catholics, for "she let both catechisms go together, so that no harm could come." He asked those who felt an interest on this subject, who were desirous of benefitting the humbler classes, to turn their attention to these documents, and see how melancholy a picture they exhibited. It would appear that in the large manufacturing towns to which he had referred the proportion of children between the ages of five and fifteen years was 25 per cent. or one-fourth of the whole. For these, certainly, instruction ought to be provided; but the daily schools in Bolton furnished instruction only for one in sixteen; Bristol only for one in twenty-four; and in the populous districts of Lancashire only one in forty-six of the population. But numbers were no criterion of improvement, and he had shown the House how grossly ignorant were many of those to whom the instruction of the rising generation in these districts were committed. He did not deny that there were many excellent schools, but he said, there ought to be the means of instruction provided for all, which now were only available to few. By the returns of Mr. Horner, who had made a report on the state of the factories, it appeared from an examination of the children of the ages of thirteen and fourteen, above the operation of the education classes of the Factory Act, that there were of the boys forty-nine and a half per cent. who could not read, and sixty-seven per cent. who could not write their names. Of the girls there were fifty-seven per cent. who could not read, and eighty-eight percent, who could not write their names. As a general result, it appeared that half the children in all the manufacturing towns had no means of obtaining education; and he could with confidence assert that three-fourths of the poorer children throughout the great towns of this country were without any effective education. Let them compare the state of education in England with other countries. He had returns in his hand, which showed how much England was behind other countries. In Nassau, the population were educated in the proportion of one to six; in Saxony, one in six; in Prussia, one to six; in the State of New York, one in four; in Switzerland, one in five; and in England only one in eight, and in some of

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the large manufacturing towns only one in seventeen. These returns he had obtained with considerable trouble, for owing to the indifference of the Government to the subject, no official returns had been procured in relation to it. He called upon both sides of the House to lay aside their party animosities, and to turn their undivided attention to this important subject. He lamented to think that Gentlemen who represented large communities should be so indifferent on a subject which was so deeply interesting to their well-being and happiness. It was shameful for Gentlemen who were such a short time since before their constituencies, and who pledged themselves to promote their interests in Parliament, to betray such inattention when a subject which so deeply concerned them was under discussion. It was not for himself he claimed their attention. If the subject were disregarded in that House he could tell hon. Gentlemen that they would have to account for it when they presented themselves elsewhere. He called on the noble Lord who sat near him—he called on the Gentlemen who supported him—to give their aid to his plan for it was a Reform measure. He called on the right hon. Baronet opposite to give his assent to it, for it was a Conservative measure, for it was a measure that would uphold the interests and promote the comforts of the humbler classes. It would be presumption in him to hope that his plan would be received by the House more than as a matter of suggestion. He begged, however, before he entered into the details of such a plan to call their attention to some facts. It must be admitted by every one that a separate plan of education must be framed for Churchmen and Dissenters. He would suggest that it should be done by the British and Foreign and the National Schools; and he would further suggest that a rate of not more than sixpence in the pound should be raised in places consisting of not above 5,000 inhabitants, to be voted by the parishioners in vestry; and this being raised, or any less sum, by subscriptions or donations, the Government should add a fourth to it, or any proportion that might be deemed proper, from the Consolidated Fund, and that the whole should then be divided between the British and Foreign and the National Schools, according to their respective number of scholars. He was convinced that if facilities were thus given to persons to exert themselves,
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they would immediately take advantage of it. There ought, likewise, to be a Board or Minister of Education, and a standing committee appointed, from whom proper returns on the subject might at all times be obtained. There ought also to be schools for teaching school-masters. He did not pretend to say, that this was the plan that ought to be adopted; he merely threw it out as a suggestion, but, having spoken to several persons interested in this subject, he had not found that there was any objection to such a scheme. Where there were many Dissenters the proportion of them would be large, and they would pay largely; where, again, there were many Churchmen, they would have large proportions of land, and they would pay largely also, so that there would be a due apportionment. One individual could not perform anything important by himself in this country; he could only bring the subject before the public and Parliament, and trust to receiving the support of the Government in it. He did not believe that the House was aware of the proportions of the different denominations that existed in the large towns of this country. He had procured a return, to which he would for a moment refer, of the number of Sunday scholars in several towns, stating the Christian denominations to which they belonged. In Liverpool the Established Church had 6,318 Sunday scholars; Catholics, 7,000, and Dissenters, 8,350. In the towns of Manchester and Salford, where the population was 250,000, the number of Sunday scholars belonging to the Established Church was 13,025, to the Catholic was 4,500, and to the Protestant Dissenters was 25,280. In the city of Bristol, where the population was 112,000, taking all the scholars, and not the Sunday scholars only, the number belonging to the Established Church was 4,370, and to the Wesleyan and other Dissenters, 8,860, being twice the number belonging to the Established Church. But he had on this subject a rather curious return, which he thought would be interesting to the House. He had a return of the number of heads of families and lodgers resident in the towns of Manchester and Salford. The number of those who belonged to the Established Church was 26,000, of those who were Protestant Dissenters was 12,090, of those who were Roman Catholics was 7,200, and of those who made no religious profession at all

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was 4,480. How did the numbers stand in another and a neighbouring district, which he was sorry to denounce as one of the most neglected in the whole country? In Dukenfield, Staley-bridge, and Ashton, the number of heads of families, &c., who belong to the Established Church was 3,100, of those who were Protestant Dissenters was 2,400, of those who were Roman Catholics was 1,600, and of those who made no religious profession at all was 4,500. Was not that a circumstance which proved that not only inquiry, but that improvement also, was wanted in those districts? It was needless, he hoped, for him to enter into further details on this subject: for if those which he had already quoted were not sufficient to obtain an answer from her Majesty's Government, he should despair to obtain one, and should console himself with the reflection that he had discharged a painful duty, and had discharged it to the best of his ability. But he could not believe that either the Government or the House would fail to attend to this subject. Indeed, he called upon them, in the name of humanity, in the name of justice, and in the name of religion, to make exertions to improve and ameliorate the state of education among their poorer fellow-countrymen! Was it just, he would ask, to pass penal enactments to send poor men's children to distant settlements, when they had no means of judging between right and wrong? There were several gentlemen, few he hoped in that House, to whom it would be useless for him to address himself on the score of humanity; but perhaps the ground of economy would awaken them to a consideration of this subject. What had been the result of not extending education? Why, the county rates had increased, and the prisons had been filled with criminals. The expense of prisons, prisoners' maintenance, prosecutors and constabulary, was a million sterling per annum! He was confident that affording a good education would be the greatest economy. Ignorance was the most costly thing the State could possess. In the immediate neighbourhood of the House there was a Penitentiary which had cost the country 350,000 l., of which nearly the whole might have been saved by educating the children of the poor. But the Government of the country took those who were hardened in iniquity, and subjected them to a process of penal dis-
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cipline which was relied upon for effecting a change more miraculous than what was sought for by the alchymists of old. It was impossible to convert the hardened criminal into that innocent state in which he might have been preserved if the Government of the country had done its duty to him. Had the Legislature begun with the best means of preventing crime, namely the education of the helpless youth, ten times as much good would have been done, at ten times less cost. He assured them that he did not believe that the splendid edifices which he saw around him stood upon safe foundations. The great body of the humbler classes in the crowded towns were aggrieved, and what else could they feel when they saw their children exposed to strong temptation, whilst the Government had provided for them only severe and fruitless punishments, but had made no provision for their instruction or support? When he saw her Majesty in her splendid palace, surrounded by the nobility of the land, he wished to God he could present to her some of the children of her poorer subjects, and he was sure she would not turn from them with contempt. He called upon that, her first Parliament, in this the first year of her reign, to do something for them, if it were only for her sake. He hoped her Majesty's Ministers would take the subject up—he hoped that hon. Gentlemen on the other side, who were loud in their advocacy of the poor, would assist him, so that in this matter at least all sides in that House might unite, omitting all party considerations for the good of the community. The hon. Member concluded by moving for a Select Committee.
Sir George Stricklandthought, the House and the country were much obliged to the hon. Member for his assiduity upon such an important subject. His hon. Friend, however, had forgot to mention that the Government and that House had at various times granted a sum of 20,000 l. for the purpose of building schools—thus meeting the very difficulty started by his hon. Friend. He could not agree in that proposition of his hon. Friend which went to raise a sixpenny rate upon all property in the country. It would be a most dangerous principle, for it would teach the people to depend for education upon the Government, in place of the parents, upon whom all such responsibility ought to rest. Let them grant money for building

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schools, and let them promote education in every way that was possible, but let them not teach parents to neglect the education of their offspring. With these few observations, he had much pleasure in seconding the motion.
Mr. Brothertonsaid, as the hon. Member for Shrewsbury had alluded to the state of ignorance and degradation in which the humble classes of Manchester and neighbouring towns were placed, he felt called upon to state that he must admit the truth of the statement. He had the honour of presenting lately a petition from the borough of Salford, for a system of education that would give every class of her Majesty's subjects the benefits of education; and he had attended one of the largest and most respectable meetings in the town of Manchester, at which the same object was discussed. He could take upon himself to say there was a strong feeling in that neighbourhood in behalf of a national system of education. No subject could be of higher importance.
Lord John Russellwas sure that the House would be of opinion that his hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury deserved great credit for the intentions with which he had brought forward this subject and for the industry with which he had collected such various and interesting details. His hon. Friend had moved for a Committee of inquiry; and to the appointment of such a Committee he for one had no objection. At the same time he must observe, that he fully agreed with his hon. Friend in thinking that if any large or efficient plan of education were to be introduced into that House, or to be carried through Parliament, it ought either to originate, or at least be supported, by Her Majesty's Government. For his own part he had long; been persuaded that it would be a great benefit to the country, if by any well conceived plan of education they could diffuse education itself more generally through the community. Whatever might be the proportion of scholars of various sects in the different schools, and whatever might be the statistical returns made to the Committee, of which his noble Friend Lord Kerry was chairman, it was an undoubted fact that a lamentable degree of ignorance existed in this country. He wished that there was no more melancholy proof of it than was contained in the report of the Committee for the improvement of prison discipline, and in
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the testimony of the chaplains of the different gaols, in which they stated that by far the greatest majority of the prisoners under their care had a total ignorance of every truth of religion and morality. When he turned, however, to the consideration of the question whether any plan of general education could be introduced at present, he saw that there were various obstacles which would prevent him from then proposing any such plan. One very obvious reason was, that the attention of the House was likely to be occupied for some time to come with measures which had heretofore been under the consideration of Parliament, and which deserved to be still further considered by it. Another reason was, that it would require the utmost skill and discretion to discover the means whereby the various obstacles in the way of any general plan of education could be surmounted. He was certain that, if any plan were attempted in which the religious feelings of the country were not consulted, it would be a signal failure, and that failure would be an obstacle to the success of any plan which might be tried subsequently. But, admitting that the religious feelings of the country were, as they ought to be, consulted, then came the consideration how they were to reconcile the differences existing between the Established Church and the Dissenters—the Church being anxious that its catechism should be taught in the schools, and the Dissenters being extremely jealous and sensitive as to the introduction of any measure which might trench on their principles and on their right of free opinion. It would shock all these feelings, and it would also shock the civil and political feelings of the country, if we were to introduce into it any plan of education imitated from the model of those foreign countries which his hon. Friend had mentioned—if, in a word, we were to square and regulate, as is clone in Russia and Prussia, the schools and the plan of education adopted in this country. These considerations presented many obstacles to the introduction of any national plan of education by the Government at the present time. He wished, likewise, as another motive for delay, to see the effect of those discussions on the subject which had already taken place in the country, and which, he expected, would soon be renewed in Parliament. He was glad—nay, he was delighted beyond measure—

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to see the public attention of the country directed to these discussions. He could not but expect that from the various meetings which had already been held, and which he was sure would soon be hold again, some valuable light would be thrown upon the plan hereafter to be adopted, and upon the system to be acted upon for the purpose of reconciling the differences of various sects. He knew, also, that a noble and learned Friend of his, whose name was identified with the subject of education, and who had ever shown the deepest interest for the more general diffusion of it—he meant Lord Brougham—had not only introduced last year a Bill upon a particular portion of this subject, but had also since then turned his attention to forming the details of a plan by which education would be more generally diffused throughout the kingdom. Seeing, then, that attention was thus excited on the subject, and expecting that we should soon have further means of judging what was the best plan to be adopted, he should finish his observations by declaring, that whilst he gave his assent to this motion, he was fully impressed with the belief, that though it would be proper for Parliament to take, ere long, decisive measures for the promotion of education, it was still a matter not to be taken up hastily by any Government, for if they unhappily introduced a plan which excited either resentment or repugnance on account of religious feelings, or which gave additional motives for dissension between the Established Church and the great body of Dissenters, they would not be furthering, they would only be obstructing, the great cause which they had at heart. Therefore, whilst he said that some such plan ought to be adopted, he must particularly desire the House and the country not to consider him as pledged to any plan on the subject. He should be prepared, however, to keep his attention fixed steadily upon the subject as one of the most important, and to the great masses of the people of the country one of the most interesting which could possibly come under the consideration of Parliament.
Viscount Sandonagreed with the noble Lord who had just sat down, that it was desirable that Government should pause before it took any definitive measures upon such a subject as the present. He thought it better to strengthen the hands of the
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societies which at present existed than to institute any new scheme.
Mr. Slaney, in explanation, said he never contemplated a compulsory rate. He wished that rate payers should have the power of assessing themselves for the purposes of education.
Motion agreed to.

IRISH CONSTABULARY.—LIEUTENANT BLAKE.
Colonel Perceval, in rising to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, said, he had hoped that her Majesty's Ministers would have conceded to him the papers that he had asked the House to give him in the first notice that had been entered in his name. He was led to hope that the papers would have been granted to him; for, from the conversation he had had with the noble Lord, the Secretary at War, he considered the hole Lord to have on his part no objection to the production of the charge against, and the sentence upon, Lieutenant Blake, of the 55th regiment, at the period stated in the paper of the House of Commons. But then he was referred to the right hon. the Member for Kircudbright. It was on this account he put his motion on the paper, in the hope that from five to seven in the evening her Majesty's Ministers would be able to make up their minds upon this subject. In the papers that he sought for, the ground of dismissal was stated with respect to the stipendiary magistrate Blake—that very stipendiary magistrate being the same Mr. Blake who had been cashiered when an officer of the 56th regiment. But he found now, from the course pursued by her Majesty's Government, that it would be necessary for him to go more into detail. He asked the House to grant him those charges against Mr. Blake, and that sentence, the approbation of the Prince Regent thereon, with a view to show how he, an individual in the county which he had the honour to represent, and, what he felt still more, those whom he had the honour of representing, had been treated by her Majesty's Government in Ireland. He understood that it had been stated, that Mr. Blake had been appointed to the commission of the peace ten years ago. With that appointment he had nothing to do. In the month of May last, when a return was made of the stipendiary magistrates appointed under the existing Government, his attention was drawn to the appoint-

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ment of Mr. Blake by a noble Lord, with a view of bringing the conduct of the Government before the House; but he felt a delicacy in drawing attention to by-gone events with a view of injuring any individual. It was not until subsequent events brought the same Mr. Blake into a prominent position before the public, that he felt himself compelled to recur to by-gone transactions. It was forced upon him now to do this in his own defence; he was obliged to do it in consequence of the imputations that had been cast upon him in another place by a high authority—by one whom, as he was the representative of their gracious Sovereign, he should not say one word that was disrespectful against, nor that could be calculated to hurt the feelings of that noble individual; for he respected her Majesty too much to say a word disrespectful of her representative. It had been stated by that high authority, that he (Col. Perceval) had preferred certain charges against Mr. Blake, and that the Irish Government most readily g anted the investigation that he had prayed for. He felt that the Irish Government had acted very differently towards him, when he prayed for an investigation, than they did to others, when the attack was made against that high-minded individual, Major Browne. The noble Lord he before alluded to had sent Major Browne and Mr. Crossley to aid Mr. Blake. Mr. Blake had accompanied, in the month of January last, the hon. and learned Member for Dublin from Castlebar to Sligo: he was present at the speeches made by that hon. Member—he had dined in company with that hon. Member in January last, when those spirits came from other places to infect the county of Sligo with agitating turbulence, which had hitherto been unknown to it, and by which those individuals had reduced that county to the degraded state in which it now was. On the 1st of February afterwards the same individual, Mr. Blake, was appointed to the ostensible and responsible situation of a Government magistrate. It appeared that the noble Lord who represented her Majesty was not responsible for this, but the individual, Mr. Blake, was sent down to aid in the distraction of Sligo; and he was sent down in a situation of trust, having previously in language expressed his political partisanship and his hostility to him. He challenged her Majesty's Government to disprove any statement
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that he felt it to be his duty to make. It was stated in another place that he had refused to enter into an investigation after he had called for it. The noble Lord opposite would recollect that in the contest for Sligo the first day's poll was the 1st of August, and on the 19th of August he wrote to the Under Secretary, Mr. Drummond, stating his opinion of the conduct of Mr. Blake, and calling upon the Government to grant him an investigation into that conduct. He received an answer from Mr. Drummond, expressing the readiness of the Government to grant him an investigation, but calling upon him for details. By return of post he sent an answer to Mr. Drummond, in which he disclaimed any intention of taking upon himself the office of a public prosecutor. He stated certain facts, of the truth of which he had personal cognizance, and to which, perhaps, he should have to swear before long. He did state facts, which he felt it to be his duty to state, when called upon for charges; but it was far from his intention in doing so to exclude the charges that might have to be brought by his constituents. Sunday was the 15th of October, and on the day preceding, Colonel Shaw Kennedy sent to him to state, that Mr. Blake complained that the letter impeaching his conduct sent by him was withheld from Mr. Blake. He replied, that he had had no communication with Mr. Blake; that his only communication was with the Secretary's office, and if Mr. Blake had not a copy of the letter, it was not his fault; that he presumed it would be found in Colonel Shaw Kennedy's instruction. He added, too, that all his papers were in the hands of Mr. Tracey, and he desired that all should be shown to Colonel Shaw Kennedy. When he found that the investigation into Mr. Blake's conduct was to be solely confined to the charges stated in the letter he had written, he saw that the Government were about to throw their shield over Mr. Blake; that it was not to be that sort of liberal investigation which had been granted to the Radicals. He said it without meaning offence to any one; he meant it was not to be that sort of investigation which was granted into the conduct of that high-minded individual, Major Browne. How was the document impeaching Major Browne's conduct authenticated? He was present in the court; and the most responsible and the

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most respectable of those who signed that document against Major Browne declared that he had never seen it, that he had never read it, and that he knew nothing of the charges it contained. He stated this fact upon his own responsibility, and if any thing he said could be disproved, then he was not worthy of attention in or out of that House. Now, he asked, when the charges against Mr. Blake's conduct were made known to him in May last—when he knew all about a gentleman who had been preferred for going with the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, from Castlebar to Sligo—when these things were so well known to him, and to so many others, he could not conjecture why they should be unknown to the Government. He recollected, when his noble Friend (Lord Stanley), the Member for North Lancashire, was Secretary for the Colonies, and that Lord Althorp recommended Mr. Blake as a stipendiary magistrate in Jamaica, he believed the noble Lord, though Mr. Blake was recommended by his Colleague, inquired into his character, and finding him wanting in that respect, if Mr. Blake were appointed, he struck him out, or if he were not, the noble Lord refused giving the appointment. This was another reason to show that her Majesty's Government in Ireland knew nothing of the parties they appointed. He should not say one word more on this part of the case, as it would be the ground of action elsewhere. Her Majesty's Government, however, restricted him to the case contained in his letter, when there were a volume of occurrences to be proved which would have disgraced the appointers and the appointee. Had not the Lord-Lieutenant sent down some one as a check upon Mr. Blake in the county, God knows what would have happened! Under the circumstances, however, he was advised, by counsel, not to enter into a partial case. He did not wish to sacrifice his constituents to his own feelings; and he stated at the time, that he should take the opportunity of bringing all those occurrences before the House of Commons, a course of proceeding which was now no longer necessary, as Mr. Blake had been dismissed. When, however, it was said, that the restricted case was to be entered upon, up jumped a Mr. Marcus Costello, who said, on behalf of his party, that they were ready to proceed with the extended case. He at once grappled with the offer,
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and after a Queen s counsel had been consulted, and decided that the full case might be gone into, then Mr. Marcus Costello drew back, and said his party would not go into a full case. When he was told that the proceedings should be in the nature of a court-martial, he sent to Colonel Shaw Kennedy a copy of the court-martial upon Lieutenant Blake. Of the seven charges that had been preferred against Lieutenant Blake, he should only read the fourth: that charged Lieutenant Blake with most outrageous and dastardly conduct, on the 16th of August, 1813, towards Captain Cloome, in having waylaid and severely beaten him with a stick, and having knocked him down, repeated his blows several times, until Captain Cloome was enabled to draw his sword, when he (Lieutenant Blake) ran away, and a description of his person was circulated amongst the different troops in Ireland. The finding stated, that on the fourth charge the prisoner was guilty, and he was accordingly sentenced to be cashiered. Then followed the approval of the Prince Regent in the usual terms, and it was determined, that the sentence should be read at the head of every regiment. He had yet to learn, why the Government refused to lay the papers he required upon the table of the House. They were to be found upon the orderly-book of every regiment, and appeared to be known everywhere but in the castle of Dublin. Another occurrence had been imputed to him by papers in the support of the Government, that he, as an Orange magistrate, attended at the case of a man charged with murder. He did not attend it. There were seven magistrates attended, and of these five who had signed the committal, including the Government magistrate, agreed that Mr. Spelman should be bailed; and he had to add, that he believed not one of the magistrates was an Orangeman. He found it necessary to disprove the statement respecting Mr. Spelman, and should now conclude by moving for "a copy of the charges, finding, and sentence of a general court-martial, held at Harwich on the 9th of August, 1816, and continued by adjournment to the 26th of the same month, upon Lieutenant Richard Blake, of the 55th regiment, together with the approval of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, and the orders of his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief in reference thereto."
Colonel Conollyseconded the motion and said: In rising upon the present occasion, I am actuated by two considerations, of which the first is essentially connected with the subject of the motion which my hon. and gallant Friend has just made, and in the second of which I cannot attempt to conceal from the House that my own personal feelings are very much involved. I fully participate in the feeling of profound respect which has been expressed by my hon. and gallant Friend for the high and exalted office of the individual by whom my mortification has been occasioned; but I still must take the liberty of trespassing on the attention of the House, and claim their indulgence while I bring under their notice a case of a most extraordinary description concerning that noble individual and myself. In deference to the exalted station of that individual, in profound respect for his office, as the representative of the Sovereign in Ireland, upholding the dignity of the Crown in that country. I yield to no man; but in proportion to the exaltedness of his station, is the mortification which I feel at the tone and language which have been made use of by him. I will, however, in the first instance, address myself to the subject of the motion immediately before us. There have been statements made in another place, which go to discredit some statements of mine made in Ireland, which in fact impute to me the misstatement of certain events connected with this individual, Mr. Blake. This has evidently arisen from a great misapprehension on the part of the noble person in question, from whom that imputation has emanated. I have been charged with having made an erroneous statement with regard to the transactions connected with the murder of Mr. Allen, near Tuber-curry, in the county of Sligo, and the inattention of the Government as evinced in not offering any reward, with the view of ensuring the detection of the perpetrators. Now, the real fact is this, I related at Enniskillen an attempt to murder—a most brutal and ferocious attack made upon another person of the name of Allen, thirty-six miles distant, in another district, and I did then express my astonishment that no steps had been taken by the Government to detect the offenders in this case by the offer of a reward. That feeling pervaded the whole county of Donegal, and I think that it was justly matter
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of astonishment, that although a large subscription, to the amount of 150 l. had been entered into there, for aiding in bringing the criminals to justice, and although the subscription, as well as the facts of the brutal outrage had been published, and re-published in the provincial press, no notice whatever had been taken by the Government of the matter, and that ferocious attempt to massacre—thank God it was but an attempt—had been left to pass wholly unheeded by them. The injuries which the unfortunate victim suffered were extremely serious; his head was cut in many places, and a considerable time elapsed before he was considered sufficiently out of danger to bear removal. And what was the crime of the man who experienced this brutal treatment? It was this—that his father had voted for Colonel Perceval at the Sligo election; for having so done, the son was pursued through two counties, and in the face of day, at the time of a public fair, thus barbarously assailed. What I wish particularly to point out to the House is this, that the party who in another place has charged me with a misstatement appears to have been himself in utter ignorance of the whole transactions respecting this intended murder—I say intended murder, because from the manner in which the man was treated, no doubt can be left on the mind of any rational individual as to what was the intent of those who assailed him. Whatever I have stated was derived from the depositions sworn to on the examinations before the magistrates; and I am perfectly ready to maintain that the indignation of the public was expressed in the strongest terms, at the insensibility of the Government to an outrage of such magnitude. I am willing to attribute it to the utter ignorance of his Excellency that he should have accused me of misrepresenting the facts of the case to which I have referred. I must do that exalted person the justice to say, that I believe him to have been entirely ignorant of the Facts, and that I believe that no report can have reached him of the extraordinary outrage in question. On that supposition alone is it possible for me to account for the inattention displayed by him in regard to it. The feeling of indignation which that inattention excited, has not even yet subsided. Since I have been in London, I have seen a letter in a provincial paper, dated the 18th November,

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expressing still the greatest surprise that no interference on the part of the Government has taken place. The local magistracy, indeed, use their utmost exertions; but unless the Government came forward there could not be great chances of success in detecting the perpetrators of the brutal outrage in question. It is clear, that either the Government must have been informed of the circumstances of it, and have, nevertheless, taken no notice of them, or that they have been kept in utter ignorance of this atrocious attempt to massacre. And it is a melancholy proof of the strength of the combination which is so powerful there, and of the extreme intimidation which prevails, that the perpetrators of the horrible crime were not pursued till it was too late to overtake them. How it could possibly have happened, that with Mr. Blake, as a stipendiary magistrate over and above the others, the Government could have been left without the information, which in that capacity Mr. Blake ought to have afforded them; or how it could have happened that the Government have knowingly let the matter pass unnoticed, it is not for me to conjecture; but it is clear, that either the one thing or the other must have been the case. I have now to turn to a matter relating to myself personally, and to the extraordinary course which has been pursued towards me by the exalted individual to whom I have already referred, and for whose office and station I have already declared myself to entertain the profoundest deference and respect, although at the same time I cannot conceal that, in proportion as his station is exalted, must I feel mortified by any language which may fall from him hurtful to my feelings. That noble individual has chosen to style me—has chosen to style me—"an itinerant orator;" an expression more offensive or unwarranted never escaped the lips of man. I have dined at one public dinner in the year 1837, at the distance of eighteen miles from my own residence, at the public invitation of a body of persons, Members of this as well as of the other House of Parliament, holding the highest rank and enjoying the greatest consideration in the empire, and whose invitations I hope that I shall never be disposed or obliged to decline. On that single ground is this exalted person authorised to call me "an itinerant orator?" Is he justified in so doing? Is not expression to
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be given to public opinion on occasions of such a kind? Does not every man, of whatever position in the state, commonly express his feelings in such a situation?—At all events, Sir, for my part, where-ever I may go, the honest expression of my feelings shall never be repressed by any authority. I shall continue at all times, and under all circumstances, to give utterance to my political sentiments, in the bold uncompromising spirit of independence becoming an honest man. I am satisfied, that the term which has been applied to me will be received with the indignation and contempt it deserves. It is unsuited to me—it is in nowise merited. As to the oratory of the case, that has been exercised on the part of the noble Lord in disclosing his ignorance, in confounding events, and creating, in fact, an insult, not in the least degree intended towards him as an individual, as well as in charging me with a misstatement, which I hope the Mouse will think me at all times incapable of, and the imputation of which, upon the present occasion, has but too clearly been occasioned by the utter ignorance, on the part of the noble Lord, of facts, with which his duty should have made him acquainted. At all events, I feel certain, that, in my own country, men will be satisfied that I certainly could not have made a misstatement such as that, which in his ignorance he has been pleased to attribute to me. I have thought it my duty to bring the matter under the notice of the House, and thus publicly to show, that the imputation which that noble Lord did cast upon me, was wholly unfounded; and in so doing, I repeat, that I yield to no man in respect and deference for the high station of that noble individual. But he did sorely mortify my feelings as a gentleman, and did convey a distinct insult to the constituency which I have the honour to represent. In duty to them, I felt that I was bound to free the Government from the ignorance in which they stood with regard to the transactions relating to Mr. Allen. At present, I am certainly inclined to believe that they have been left in absolute ignorance of them; but if not, then I shall join in the common expression of indignation contained in the provincial paper to which I have referred, at the insensibility of a Government which refuses to aid the course of justice, and to afford redress for an outrage so excessively grievous, in

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not lending its efforts towards bringing to punishment the guilty perpetrators of such horrible and atrocious barbarity.
Viscount Morpethwas sure it would be most agreeable to the House that he should confine himself principally to the subject before them; but he felt bound, in the first instance, to refer to the digression into which the House had been led by the hon. and gallant Member for Donegal. He had only to observe that with regard to the offering of rewards for the detection of offences, Government almost invariably was guided by the report of the proper officers. The Government thought, and with justice, that the parties, from their intimate knowledge of the transactions, were best qualified to offer suggestions on the subject, and to tell whether the offer of a reward would conduce to the detection of the offence. The hon. and gallant Member for Donegal had alluded, not with strict regularity, to some comments made elsewhere. Now, he thought that the hon. and gallant Member viewed these charges in rather a graver light than they were intended to be viewed in. He admitted that his Excellency the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in the speech which he had made elsewhere, had been so far misled, inasmuch as he had thought that the gallant Colonel had alluded to one transaction when, in fact, he alluded to another transaction. At the same time it should not be forgotten that the allusion had been most derogatory to the character of the Government, which had attributed to them an insensibility to the protection of the lives of her Majesty's subjects. With reference to the expression "itinerant orator," he thought that the honourable and gallant Member had invested it with a more offensive appearance than it was warranted to bear. The great extent of the property of the hon. and gallant Member in various parts of Ireland led rather to a multiplication of his appearance on the political stage, and the hon. and gallant Member should remember that he delivered his own sentiments rather too warmly to entitle him to any special forbearance on the part of others. He presumed that the word "orator" was not the part for which he had to offer an apology. With reference to the motion immediately before the House, he was not aware of any technical objection on the part of the War-office or the military department to the
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production of the papers moved for. But he would proceed to state briefly why he thought this motion should not be made, and if made at all, why it should not be made by the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo. He did hope that sufficient publicity had been already given to this transaction to dispense with the necessity of further proceedings. He would briefly recapitulate the circumstances of the case. Shortly after the arrival of the present Lord-Lieutenant in Ireland the name of Mr. Blake had been submitted as a proper and eligible person to be appointed a stipendiary magistrate. A recommendation, stating his qualifications in warm terms, had been presented to the Lord-Lieutenant, signed by the Vice-Lieutenant of the county, Lord Oranmore, by Lord Dillon, and a long string of other names of the highest respectability. That recommendation had been supported by the hon. Member for the county, and he had been informed on all sides that the appointment of Mr. Blake was a proper and eligible appointment. When they had duly considered these recommendations, they determined that on a vacancy Mr. Blake should be appointed. This decision had been formed long before they knew any thing of Mr. Blake being in a carriage or dining at the same table with the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. He did not for a moment pretend that this would have formed any disqualification. He had sat himself at the same table with the hon. and learned Member for Dublin; and he, at least, should not propose to exclude from offices those who adopted a similar course. However, as it happened, Mr. Blake's accompanying the hon. and learned Member for Dublin to Sligo had nothing to do with his appointment; indeed, from the dates which the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo had himself stated, it appeared that Mr. Blake went to Sligo on the 25th of January, and his appointment was gazetted on the 1st of February, proving that at the time the Government did not probably know anything of Mr. Blake accompanying the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. Mr. Blake was accordingly appointed stipendiary magistrate, and in addition to the recommendation which Government had received from those best qualified to give accurate and satisfactory information, they found that this gentleman had acted for eleven years as a resident magistrate of the county of

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Mayo, having been appointed by Lord Chancellor Manners. During these eleven years there had been no rumour of misconduct; no complaint against Mr. Blake had reached the ears of Government. He would now come to the period of the late elections. The hon. and gallant Member for Sligo complained that Mr. Blake had identified himself with a political party previously to his attendance at the election. If the hon. and gallant Member derived any benefit from the admission, he was not unwilling to confess that he did not think this the most eligible appointment, and for that reason. The appointment was necessarily made while the Lord-Lieutenant and himself were in this country attending to their duties, at the accession of her Majesty, and from the numerous applications for assistants to attend the elections, the appointments were made with some little degree of hurry. The hon. and gallant Member for Sligo himself admitted that there were two other gentlemen to whose qualifications for the discharge of his duty he made no objection, but, on the contrary, to which he bore high testimony, and who had been sent to assist Mr. Blake in preserving the peace during the election. It was true, that after the termination of the election, the hon. and gallant Member addressed to the Under Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Drummond) a letter containing sundry complaints against the conduct of Mr. Blake during the election. The hon. and gallant Member had been informed, and as he thought most properly, that before the Government could direct a specific inquiry into the allegations, a specific and not a general charge must be made. The result was, a letter of some length from the hon. and gallant Member, in which he set forth three distinct specific heads of accusation. The letter contained three specific charges, and accordingly Government directed an inquiry to be instituted into these three specific heads of accusation. The inquiry was fixed for a certain day, Monday he believed, there being another inquiry at the same time instituted at the request of the other—what was called the popular—party in Sligo, against Major Browne. Both inquiries were to take place continuously, and, in fact, there was almost the same array of witnesses on each side, and the same person was directing it, namely, Colonel Shaw Kennedy, under the orders of the Government. Three or
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four days after the day fixed for the inquiry into the conduct of these parties, there came a subsequent letter from the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo, inclosing a memorial, containing several other distinct and specific charges against Mr. Blake. He referred this letter to the right hon. the Attorney-General, in order to consult him and have his advice, as to the course of proceeding which he thought would be lair towards an individual in an ordinary case at law or equity? He had been distinctly told by his right hon. Friend, that his opinion was, that having received a series of specific charges against Mr. Blake, and having directed an inquiry into these charges, and having named the day on which the inquiry was to be appointed, the Government could neither justly or fairly graft upon the charges already made, any new separate and distinct charge. They did not wish to prevent an inquiry being held on these charges on a subsequent occasion; but they refused to go into these new charges until after the termination of the inquiry already directed. The hon. and gallant Member for Sligo had been pleased to say that Government had dealt out a different measure of justice to the other party. In the course of the same proceeding, and when the inquiry was proceeding against Major Browne, on distinct charges, an application was made to extend the inquiry into the conduct of the troops. The Government, however, determined to allow no new charge to be introduced in the course of the proceedings, and they directed that the inquiry should be made solely with reference to the grounds of accusation already before them. The hon. and gallant Member for Sligo had moved for the production of the charges, finding, and sentence of the general court-martial on Mr. Blake. That hon. and gallant Member had expressed his surprise that Government was not acquainted with the existence of this court-martial. The hon. and gallant Member did not seem disposed to give them much credit,—but he could solemnly assure him that till September last no knowledge of any such court-martial had ever reached them. He could only say, that if they had heard of it their conduct would have been the same as at the actual instant, for, as soon as the charge and the finding of the court martial had been submitted to them, they had never wavered in the course which

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they thought right to pursue. The existence of the court-martial was intimated to Government after the inquiry had been directed into the conduct of Mr. Blake. He could not understand whether the hon. and gallant Member founded any charge upon the fact, but Government considered that the finding of the court-martial formed a distinct subject from the conduct of Mr. Blake at the election, and the inquiry was therefore allowed to proceed. Immediately they heard of the court-martial, Government thought it their duty to request from the Commander-in-chief a copy of the sentence, and the report of the Court. It reached Government about the same time that the inquiry upon the matters connected with the election came to a termination, and directly that they had acquired a full knowledge of the sentence of the court-martial, Government thought it their duty to intimate to Mr. Blake that they could no longer continue to accept his services as a stipendiary magistrate. He confessed that he did not come to this resolution without much pain. The proceedings had taken place twenty-three years ago. Mr. Blake was then a very young man. The hon. and gallant Member for Sligo had read one of the charges against Mr. Blake on the court-martial. He did not remember, he was not. quite sure, that the hon. and gallant Member had read another part of the sentence, namely, that the court at the conclusion of the trial recommended Mr. Blake to the merciful consideration of the Crown. The recommendation of the court was, however, not acceded to, and the sentence was carried into effect. But all this took place twenty-three years ago. Mr. Blake was, as he said before., a young man; he had since, for eleven years, con-tinned to fulfil the duties of a resident magistrate. At the time he was recommended for appointment as a magistrate he had been informed that the circumstances of the court martial had been brought under the notice of Lord Chancellor Mariners; that noble Lord inquired into them, and after doing so he still persevered in the appointment of Mr. Blake. Having been thus appointed, he, for eleven years, fulfilled the duties of the office, and the step which they had thought it their duty, however painful, to take, besides inflicting a large actual loss on this gentleman, was also calculated to throw a slur and cloud on his future peace and prospects.
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But, nevertheless, after the finding of the court-martial, they felt that they had no other course open to them but a dismissal, summary, instantaneous, and complete. He had hoped, that this would have been sufficient to slake the hostile feelings even of the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo. It seemed that he was mistaken, both from the motion which had been made, and from the extract which the hon. and gallant Member had thought it his duty to read to the House. But he did hope, that that House would consider that a sufficient penalty had been inflicted, that sufficient publicity had been insured, and that they would not give further notoriety to these old charges by assenting to the motion. Having thus given his reasons for refusing his assent to the motion, he had only to state the reasons why he thought the hon. and gallant Member should not be the person to make it. This he would do, by simply stating what had occurred within the last fortnight. In the Court of Queen's Bench in Dublin, he found by the record, that before the rising of the court Mr. O'Dowd moved, on behalf of Mr. Blake, for liberty to file a criminal information against the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo. The affidavits in support of the motion stated, that on the 15th of August last, at the election for the county of Sligo, whilst he (Mr. Blake) was acting in the discharge of his duty and preserving the peace, having railed off a particular space within which he intended that neither of the parties should enter, some of Colonel Perceval's friends pressed and entered into this particular space, and Colonel Perceval, who was present, called him a scoundrel, a rascal, and a coward.
Colonel Percevalsaid, that those words had never been attributed to him in the affidavits.
Viscount Morpethwas reading the account of what took place. The affidavit went on to say, that the only reply of Mr. Blake was, "I thank you;" that the witness believed that the offensive language used towards him was intended to induce him to commit a breach of the peace. The result was, that the court granted a conditional rule. Of course, he (Lord Morpeth) could not venture to decide upon the justice of the allegations or upon the merits of the case, but he did submit to the House, that the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo would do well to be

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content to abide the issue of the evidence, without moving one of the parties into a court where it was impossible for them to meet on equal terms. He had stated his reasons why he humbly ventured to think that this motion ought not to have been made, and why he thought the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo ought not to have made it; and for these reasons, if the motion were pressed to a division, he would meet it with as flat a negative as his voice or his vote could give it.
Mr. Sergeant Jacksonsaid, he had risen because it appeared to him that great injustice had been done to his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Perceval) by the course taken by the noble Lord (Morpeth). He should like to know what paper the noble Lord had referred to respecting the motion for a criminal information, because he had seen the documents on which that motion had been made, and he could state that the affidavits did not venture to attribute one syllable of that which the noble Lord had thought proper to read to the House as having been attributed to his hon. and gallant Friend. It seemed to him that what the noble Lord had read was an extract from a newspaper. He would only add, that the county of Sligo had been peaceable and orderly until it suited the purposes of certain parties to agitate it, and until the appointment of stipendiary magistrates, in the absence of the Lord-Lieutenant and the noble Lord opposite, had devolved upon persons who did not know those whom they sent to execute the laws of the country.
Mr. Sergeant Woulfesaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman might have well spared his eloquent indignation for a more worthy occasion. His noble Friend had merely stated that he thought, under the circumstances of the case, that the charges against Mr. Blake might have come with more delicacy from any other quarter than the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo, and for this reason, that there was pending between Mr. Blake and the hon. and gallant Member a litigation of a serious nature in the Court of Queen's Bench in Dublin. That court had already granted a conditional rule for a criminal information for gross misconduct. He did not care whether this was done in the words read by his noble Friend, or in words akin to them; whether his noble Friend had read the actual record or a newspaper report of what took place, the fact was
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substantially the same; the Court of Queen's Bench, on looking at the documents, and taking into consideration the hon. and gallant Member's conduct, had, without hesitation, granted a conditional rule. With this conditional rule hanging over his head, the hon. and gallant Member for Sligo rushed into that House, where Mr. Blake had not the power of following him, and where the hon. and gallant Member might say what he liked with perfect impunity, and not only without the danger of punishment, but without the possibility of reply; the hon. and gallant Member rushed into that court, and attacked a man not only unarmed, but without the possibility of defence. He must say this much with regard to Mr. Blake, that the proceedings for which he was now punished took place many years ago. The Lord-Lieutenant, with great pain, had come to the proper conclusion. He had never seen Mr. Blake; he had never spoken to him; he was not on terms of intimacy with any one who, he believed, had any knowledge of him; but he felt called upon in common justice to say, that the conduct of Mr. Blake as a magistrate had repeatedly come before him unconnected with party measures, and a more useful stipendiary magistrate he had never known. He never heard any complaint; he had repeatedly had opportunities of witnessing his conduct in matters unconnected with politics, and he had always found him a remarkably active, useful, and diligent public officer. He might refer particularly to a transaction of great moment, and which had excited much notice in the north of Ireland: he meant the affair of the Ballyshannon fishery. In that affair, when the lessee and lessor combined against a gentleman of the name of Hector, and when a most atrocious attack was made on the property of Mr. Hector, Mr. Blake had proved himself an eminently useful officer. The first letter written by the gallant Colonel, containing charges against Mr. Blake, was couched in very general terms, imputing partiality in his official capacity, and calling for an inquiry into his conduct. He rather believed that at the time this letter was written, his Excellency, the Lord-Lieutenant, and also the noble Secretary for Ireland, were not in that country; a letter, however, was written, acknowledging the receipt of the gallant Colonel's letter, and stating that it con-

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tained charges of a very grave character which demanded mature investigation, but that it would be impossible to put the party on his trial unless the charges upon which he was to be tried were in a more specific form. The gallant Colonel then wrote another letter, in which he did bring three specific charges against Mr. Blake, which he numbered one, two, and three, declining, however, at the same time, to become the public prosecutor of that gentleman. Mr. Blake having been furnished with a copy of the gallant Colonel's letter was called upon for an explanation of his conduct. Mr. Blake, in compliance with this invitation, did give such an explanation as he thought the circumstances required, and this explanation was forwarded to the gallant Colonel. The gallant Colonel, upon receipt of this, was not satisfied, and demanded an inquiry, which was accordingly directed to take place. And to whom was this delicate investigation intrusted. To a partisan—to a violent politician—to a man who would have an interest or find a pleasure in screening the guilty or of wrongfully convicting the innocent man?—No: the investigation was committed to the hands of Colonel Shaw Kennedy, an officer of whom it was known that there was no man who, in his official duties, manifested more thorough impartiality and good feeling; and he was accompanied by a Queen's counsel, a gentleman of the name of Brooke, a gentleman who was only known to be respected, who had quietly pursued his professional career apart from anything in the shape of politics, and who had never taken a part in anything which might be even termed culpable agitation. When these gentlemen made their appearance, for the purpose of conducting the inquiry, the commission being already opened, and Mr. Blake being prepared with his witnesses for his defence, the gallant Colonel wrote a letter, saying that he could not untertake to maintain the specific charges he had brought forward; but stating that there were other charges which he could prefer, and which he should be better able to substantiate To this the Commissioners replied, that the charges which the gallant Colonel offered to bring forward were matters with which they had nothing to do, and which, therefore, they could not to into. The gallant Colonel then wrote to the Government, demanding that Mr. Blake should be put upon his trial upon
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the latter charges; but being consulted by the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland upon the propriety of acceding to this proposition, he at once saw the injustice of admitting such a course of proceeding, and advised the Government accordingly. Could any thing be more unjust than that a man should be put upon his trial without knowing what he was to be tried for—without any specific charges which he might prepare himself to answer and to acquit himself of? If a man were indicted for stealing a horse, could any court, with any show of justice, convict him upon that indictment of stealing a cow? No, The Lord-Lieutenant, acting in accordance with the advice he (Mr. Woulfe) gave, replied that he was open to entertain any charge which might be preferred in a regular manner against Mr. Blake, but that, before he could do so, the charges should be put in a specific form. One word more. It had been alleged that Major Browne had been put upon his trial upon receipt of the first letter of accusation against him. But why was this? Because this letter contained specific charges against that individual, which the first letter of the gallant Colonel did not. The charge against Major Browne was specifically, that he had wantonly ordered a charge of dragoons when none need be made, to the great injury of the persons against whom it was directed.
Mr. D. Brownesaid, that allusion having been made to him by the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, he begged to offer a very few remarks. He acknowledged that he was the person who recommended Mr. Blake as a stipendiary magistrate. He presented a memorial signed by Lord Oranmore and Lord Dillon, in which it was stated that Mr. Blake had been intrusted with the commission of the peace for the county of Mayo, in which he had conducted himself with credit to himself and to the satisfaction of the county. Mr. Blake had also acted as justice of the peace for the county of Galway, and had even been appointed, under a Tory Government, he believed that of the Duke of Northumberland, to a lieutenancy in the yeomanry corps. Under these circumstances he thought he was perfectly justified in recommending Mr. Blake as a stipendiary magistrate. He could only say, further, that at the time he was not aware of the court mar-

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tial on Mr. Blake, which took place only two years after he was born, and could not, therefore, be said to have have occurred within his remembrance. There were many accusations made, and he would make one. At the Sligo election he saw an individual of high character in the neighbourhood strike an unoffending person, and that individual was the gallant Colonel opposite. He solemnly affirmed in the face of the House and of the country, that what he said was the case. [Colonel Perceval said he never struck a man in his life.] The gallant gentleman was within two hundred feet of me when I saw him, I repeat, strike, and that with not very slight exertion, an inoffensive peasant, who did not appear to be doing any further harm than that of running away from the political vengeance of the gallant Colonel. The gallant Colonel also had complained that Mr. Blake had accompanied the hon. Member for Dublin from Castlebar to Dublin. He would grant he had clone so—he would grant, even, that Mr. Blake might have spoken disrespectfully of the hon. and gallant Colonel; but if he did so, he did not think that that was any reason why Mr. Blake should be excluded from an official situation; there were many of the gallant Colonel's associates of whom it would be difficult to speak in any other terms. He (Mr. D. Browne) did not wish to screen any part of the official conduct of the Government from inquiry, but at the same time he did not wish to see the time of the House occupied by idle and useless motions like the present. The motion had evidently two distinct objects—the first to bring her Majesty's Government into disrepute, by throwing blame upon Mr. Blake; and the second to drag before this House the private motives and character of individuals. He thought that sufficient had already been done to satisfy the anger of the gallant Colonel, and that Mr. Blake had suffered enough as the victim of political malignity, being deprived of his situation and separated from those gentlemen with whom he used to be associated. He trusted that the Government would resist this motion, which was only made to satisfy the cravings of an expiring faction.
Mr. E. Shawsaid, that the hon. Member who had just sat down had made one statement of fact, in which, upon consideration, he was sure he would admit
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himself to be mistaken, namely, that of his hon. and gallant Friend having struck a person at Sligo. His hon. and gallant Fiend averred that no such occurrence had taken place, and the hon. gentleman, who was distant 200 yards.—[Mr. D. Browne: 200 feet.] He had certainly understood the hon. Member to say 200 yards; and surely at such a distance, particularly after the assertion of the hon. and gallant Colonel to the contrary, the hon. Member could have no difficulty in admitting himself to have been mistaken. He had now one remark to make upon what had fallen, he was sure quite inadvertently, from the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite charging his hon. and gallant Friend with wishing to put Mr. Blake on his trial under unfair circumstances. As he (Mr. Shaw) recollected the case it was this—that his gallant Friend wrote to the Government complaining of the conduct of Mr. Blake, but declining at the same time to become his accuser, the grounds of complaint being circumstances of which various of his constituents had been witnesses, together with one or two of which he had been personally cognisant. When the inquiry was about to be instituted, and Colonel Shaw Kennedy arrived, his gallant Friend was informed that the inquiry could not be a general one, but must be confined to the circumstances of which his gallant Friend had personally to complain. His gallant Friend, upon this intimation, at once declined to stand forward as Mr. Blake's accuser, in such comparatively trifling circumstances as he was aware of, as the case would be very incomplete if confined to these. As soon as it was resolved that no inquiry was to take place, his gallant Friend assured his constituents that he would take the earliest opportunity of bringing the subject under the notice of the House of Commons, and that pledge he had this evening fulfilled. With respect to the fact that a conditional order had been granted in the Court of Queen's Bench against his gallant Friend, the learned Attorney-General had really as it appeared to him, laid more stress upon that circumstance than it was entitled to, for the learned Gentleman must surely be aware that it required no very serious charge to obtain such an order in the first instance. He would end by saying that he was very sure that there was no Gentleman in or out of the House who

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was not perfectly satisfied that his gallant Friend was incapable of any conduct incompatible with the feelings, character, or honour, of a Gentleman.
Mr. Dennis O'Conorsaid, that allusion having been made in the course of the present debate to Lord Oranmore, he had been requested by that nobleman in case such allusion were made, to state in his name, that some years ago he had been applied to to recommend Mr. Blake to the commission of the peace, but that Mr. Blake having been tried and convicted by a court-martial, he had declined doing so. Subsequently, however, Lord Bingham did recommend Mr. Blake, and he was appointed, not only to the county of Mayo, but to the county of Galway, and after that also was made a lieutenant in the yeomanry corps of Mayo; in all which capacities he believed that Mr. Blake had conducted himself in a most unimpeachable manner. The gallant Colonel had this evening read those parts of the proceedings of the courtmartial which bore most heavily on Mr. Blake, but he (The O'Conor Don) thought the gallant Colonel should in fairness have read those passages also which tended to the justification of that Gentleman. It was true that this court-martial had found Mr. Blake guilty, but it was also true that it had recommended him to mercy, because the officer whom he struck was the cause of all his misfortune, and because his previous conduct had been unimpeachable. He really thought it was too hard, now that Mr. Blake was verging into years, to bring up a hasty action committed in his youth to his prejudice, and that merely because that gentleman happened to be a political opponent of the gallant Colonel. He really hoped that the gallant Colonel would withdraw this motion, and not press it to a division.
Mr. Somerswas very sorry that the gallant Colonel had not had the good taste to leave his case to the tribunal which would shortly have to decide n the matter in dispute between himself and Mr. Blake. The gallant Colonel had entered into many particulars, but there were some which he had not stated, and which were wanted to complete the picture. The gallant Colonel had not stated, that there was a gentleman of great influence and standing in Sligo, who had distributed a large quantity of daggers amongst the peasantry each of which had his name upon it, and that individual was no less a person than
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the hon. and gallant Colonel himself. Was that the man who wanted explanation? Did the hon. and gallant Colonel forget the case of Simpson? He appealed to the gallant Colonel whether he did not take the hand of that man, in Orange union who was under a charge of malicious cutting and maiming? Did not the querulous Member for Sligo hand pistols from the bench to Simpson desiring him to use them? He could corroborate the statement of the hon. Member for Mayo with respect to the gallant Colonel's having struck an inoffensive person. The gallant Colonel did strike a man with an umbrella. And much to the credit of Mr. Blake be it added, that this was the only breach of the peace which was committed at this election. He would ask the gallant Member whether or not he had shaken hands with Simpson in public court?
Colonel Perceval: Yes, often; and will again.
Mr. Briscoesaid, he never had heard a charge brought forward against any Government which had been so feebly supported and so triumphantly answered as the present. He did not rise to speak generally to the subject in debate, but to express his opinion on the case of the very hard-used individual whose conduct had been thus unsuccessfully impugned. He would refer to the recommendation of the court-martial which had tried Mr. Blake, and would ask whether the Government, after twenty-three years of unexampled good conduct on the part of Mr. Blake, would not be fully justified in tempering justice with mercy; and though they would not, perhaps, be acting wisely in reinstating him in the same office, yet he hoped that, in consideration of his valuable public services and strict impartiality of conduct, some other situation would be found for him. As an English Member, and therefore the less open to a charge of partisanship, he had stood forward to express his feelings on the case of Mr. Blake, which he was glad to see were participated in by a large number of those who heard him.
Mr. S. O'Brienthought, that Mr. Blake, and not the gallant Member for Sligo, was the aggrieved party. Mr. Blake, he thought, had been extremely hardly treated, and he hoped that an early opportunity would be taken, consistently with the dignity of the Government, of making him some return for the bad treatment he had experienced.
Colonel Percevalsaid, he felt like a person put upon his trial, and he would commence his defence by answering one question in the affirmative. He certainly did shake hands with James Simpson, and he hoped he should have frequent opportunities of shaking hands with him again. Mr. Somers: In the dock?] It might nave been in the dock; for, in the Court of Registry, several gentlemen were stationed in the dock, as the place was extremely crowded. It was true, that he gave Mr. Simpson a brace of pistols, in order to protect himself; he was a valuator, and his life had been threatened, and on the occasion it was also deemed advisable to place him tinder the protection of the assistant-barrister, until he reached his lodgings. With respect to the daggers, he distinctly denied ever having given one away; and he did not believe, that on earth could be found one dagger marked with the name of Alexander Perceval. An hon. Member had charged him with having struck a man during the borough or county election. He declared, on the honour of a gentleman, he had never done so; he merely raised his umbrella to save his own head. A man was certainly struck, but not by him. He tried, on the contrary, to protect that individual by every means in his power, and he would take that opportunity of declaring, that, during life, he had never struck any man. The noble Lord had charged him with having applied the terms liar and scoundrel to Mr. Blake. He had never used such language. With regard to the want of feeling attributed to him in bringing forward this motion, he would merely say, that at the close of the investigation, Mr. Blake and his counsel offered to go into the case, and he, by the advice of his counsel, assented; but Mr. Blake afterwards backed out. He then said, that he would bring the subject under the notice of Parliament; and although a conditional rule had been granted against him, he did not think it necessary to forego that pledge. He had answered all questions candidly, and, if necessary, he could adduce the testimony of Captain Tracy to prove his innocence of the charge of having struck a man during the election contest. The blow was given by a man in the poorer classes of society. The hon. Member concluded by stating he had no objection to withdraw his motion, if doing so would accord with the feelings of the House.
Sir R. Peelthought, the course most satisfactory to Mr. Blake, would be the withdrawal of the motion, when he considered the lapse of time since the court-martial; the declaration also of the noble Lord, that the appointment was unfortunate; and as Mr. Blake's conduct being yet under investigation, he thought the House would not object to the motion being withdrawn.
Motion withdrawn.

IRISH CONSTABULARY.
Colonel Percevalthen moved for a Return of the names of the Chief Constables submitted to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland for promotion under the new Bill by the Inspector-general, distinguishing the names of those promoted, if any. He made this motion, because he considered that the understanding implied, if not expressed, by Ministers in the discussion of the Constabulary Bill last year, had been violated. The noble Lord opposite had implied, that the patronage and appointments under the Bill, should be vested in Colonel Shaw Kennedy. The declaration was hailed with cheers from both sides of the House, and, thus understood, it was permitted to pass without contradiction. The hon. and gallant Colonel referred to the speech of the noble Lord, to show that the appointments were to be nominally in the Lord-Lieutenant, but actually in the Inspector-general, in the same manner as it was exercised here in this metropolis. From the speech of the noble Lord, it was certainly to be inferred that the patronage was to be exclusively in the Inspector-General; but it since appeared, that so far from such being the fact, the appointments were with the Executive Government. The right hon. Member for Tam-worth, who took part in the debate on the Constabulary Bill last Session, understood the noble Lord in the same sense that he (Colonel Perceval) did, and with that understanding withdrew his objection. Many of the later appointments in the constabulary force had an appearance of partizanship, which would not be the case if Colonel Shaw Kennedy had had, as he ought to have had, the entire nomination.
Sir R. Batesonseconded the proposition. The case of Mr. Gore Jones was, in itself, sufficient to warrant the motion before the House.
Viscount Morpethwas unfortunately

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placed in a position which rendered it impossible for him to assent to any of the propositions made that night by the hon. and gallant Member opposite. Instead of being at the trouble of having these returns printed, he would save time and printing-paper, by stating, that nine of the appointments were made after the manner described in the hon. and gallant Member's motion. Instead of the Inspector-general submitting the persons to be promoted to the Lord-Lieutenant, it was the Lord-Lieutenant who submitted them to the Inspector-general, and no person was appointed who had not undergone the examination of the latter. He denied, that the Constabulary Bill was passed on the faith of an understanding that the patronage was to be transferred from the Lord-Lieutenant to the Inspector-general. Neither he, nor any one on his side of the House hinted at, or assented to, such a transfer of patronage. On the contrary, it was clearly stated, that the appointment was to be with the Government. He never had made such an admission to the right hon. Member for Tamworth as that alluded to by the hon. and gallant Member opposite; and so far from any such thing being understood as arising out of the debate on the Irish Constabulary Bill, Lord Londonderry, in the other House, when discussing that measure, said that the Bill, if passed, would enable the Lord-Lieutenant to return to Ireland with a great increase of patronage. He would not go into the case of Mr. Gore Jones further than to say that, though his removal from a particular station was thought advisable, it did not appear to Government that his conduct required so grave a censure, or so severe a punishment, as dismissal.
Mr. Shawregretted that the right hon. Member for Tamworth was not in his place, for though the noble Lord, the Home Secretary, had not absolutely said, that the patronage would be vested in the inspector-general, both he (Mr. Shaw) and his right hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) understood that such was to be the case. They understood that the discipline of the whole force was virtually to be vested in Colonel Shaw Kennedy.
Mr. Bellewconsidered that the police force had greatly improved under the present Government. They were not now viewed by the people of Ireland in the same light as they were formerly. People
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were beginning to view them as protectors, not as partisans. It was true they had not as yet become popular, for there were many persons in the force who possessed as strong feelings on political matters as the hon. and gallant Colonel himself; but if the present Ministry continued in power for two years longer they would be favourably viewed by all parties in Ireland. With respect to the impartiality with which promotion took place in this force the small proportionate number of Roman Catholics sufficiently testified it, and there was no charge with respect to misconduct which was not at once met with the utmost alacrity on the part of the Government. The police force and the national system of education were the peculiar objects of hostility. Under former Governments the police were used in such employments as were calculated to render them highly unpopular. They were compelled to do the duty of tithe proctors and bailiffs. By the course which the present Government adopted they were freed from this odium.
Lord John Russellsaid, that the right hon. Member for the University of Dublin certainly misunderstood him in what he had said when the Irish Constabulary Bill was under discussion. He never had said, and never intended to say, that the patronage of the police force should be vested in Colonel Shaw Kennedy, and not in the Lord-Lieutenant. He understood when the measure was first proposed there was a strong objection to it, lest the person who was to be placed at its head might entertain any strong political bias. To obviate this objection, he wrote to Colonel Shaw Kennedy, to ascertain whether that gentleman would accept the appointment; and having obtained his consent, he then stated to the House that Colonel Shaw Kennedy, would be appointed Inspector-general, and have the direction and disposition of the force. This was all he had said, and the statement appeared to have given general satisfaction.
Sir R. Batesonwould solemnly assure the House that he understood the whole patronage was to be vested in Colonel Shaw Kennedy.
Colonel Percevalread an extract from the speech of Sir Robert Peel, to show that the right hon. Baronet understood the propositions of Government in the same manner that he did, and the cheers of the whole House when the right hon. Baronet spoke the passage showed that they as-

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sented to his meaning. The passage left it distinctly to be understood that though the patronage would be nominally in the Lord-Lieutenant it would virtually rest in Colonel Shaw Kennedy. That was the general expectation; indeed, he might almost say it was the compromise upon which the Bill passed. For himself he would say that many of the appointments to this force savoured of partisanship.
Motion negatived.

MUNICIPAL DECLARATIONS.
Mr. Baines Mr. Baines moved the second reading of the Municipal Officers' Declaration Bill.
Mr. Grotegave notice, that he would at the next stage of the Bill move an instruction to the Committee to extend the benefit of the measure to persons of the Jewish persuasion.
Mr. Shawobserved, that the Bill had been allowed to be brought in without opposition on the distinct understanding that its provisions should not be extended to Jews.
Mr. Bainesfelt persuaded that any attempt to introduce the Jews into the Bill would be fatal to its success. For his part, though friendly to the claims of the Jews, he was satisfied, in the present instance, to take what he could get. Every one admitted that the declarations now imposed upon Quakers were incompatible with the dictates of their religion, and prevented their becoming members of municipal bodies, and thus deprived those bodies of many valuable officers. For this reason he was anxious to see them speedily admitted to corporate privileges. If any hon. Gentleman wished to introduce a Bill on the same principle for the relief of the Jews he would support it; but he hoped that they would not, by endeavouring to tack the Jews on the present Bill—deprive Christians of the expected relief. He thought he was not fairly used in this matter. He had, last Session, introduced a Bill, in which the Jews were included. The consequence was that it was violently opposed and delayed until the Session was so far advanced that when it went up to the other House it was rejected—first, because of the lateness of its introduction, and secondly, as introducing a species of legislation not hitherto recognised. He had now brought in the Bill for the relief of Quakers and Moravians solely, and he wished to limit it to that object.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that if the Jews were not comprehended in the Bill he should certainly oppose it. This was a Bill to enable persons to undertake municipal offices from which they were now excluded by certain oaths. Now, what was a sheriff' but a municipal officer? And were not Jews now eligible—and if they refused to serve, subject to a fine? When they were introducing a Bill opening municipal offices to all her Majesty's subjects should they exclude from its benefits a large class who were now liable to be compelled to serve in such offices? He thought that the introduction of a clause in favour of the Jews would not endanger the Bill, and he hoped that on going into committee the hon. Member for the City of London would move it.
Mr. G. F. Youngthought it was contrary to sound principles of legislation to make any exception in the bill. The present High Sheriff of London was a Jew, and no man could fill the office more efficiently, or with more credit to himself.
Sir R. Inglissaid, that the speech they had just heard afforded sufficient warning of the danger of conceding fresh privileges to persons opposed to the Church. When, on a former occasion, he had taken the notice of the bill into his hand, and heard the speech by which it was explained, he did not expect it would be so comprehensive as was proposed by the hon. Members for Bridport and Teignmouth. The hon. Member for Leeds had stated, that he did not intend to include any sects in the bill except Quakers and Moravians, and on that stipulation he did not oppose the bill. Now they were told by influential Members, representing large constituencies, and on both sides of the House, that persons of all creeds must be included in the privileges. The hon. Member for Bridport was always consistent; his constant purpose was to annihilate the Church, and to do away with all Christianity. If the bill was to include the Jews he would certainly oppose it, and in his opinion it was sure to fall to the ground.
Mr. Humesaid, that the hon. Baronet was quite correct in what he stated as far as regarded the hon. Member for Leeds, but the House was not to be influenced by that. It did appear to him that it was a reflection on the House of Commons that its time should be lost in conceding political privileges by driblets. The hon. Baronet was right in thinking he (Mr.

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Hume) wished to include all classes in the bill. The hon. Baronet trembled for the Church, but he believed that intolerance was what placed the Church in the greatest danger. The more liberal the policy the safer the Church. It was a strange mode of reasoning to say that such a bill favoured those who had no religion. Why, those who had no religion would take any test demanded of them. The hon. Baronet was stanch to his own conscientious scruples in favour of the Church, yet he would deny others their civil rights, because they would not yield theirs. He would rather that the bill should be lost than passed in a defective form. They had now Jewish High Sheriffs receiving her Majesty, and giving the highest satisfaction to their fellow-citizens. And was it not now lamentable to see the House of Commons striving to deprive such men of their rights as citizens, particularly as a fine might be imposed on them for not serving in the offices from which the oaths excluded them? The hon. Baronet was always consistent, and he was the only man on that side of the House for whom he could say so much—in his intolerance. But he wished him even now, in the eleventh hour, to relent. How could he lay his head on his pillow, and ask himself if he had done unto others as he wished they should do unto him, if he thus disregarded the conscientious scruples of others.
Bill read a second time, and referred to a Committee of the whole House.

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a first time:—Commissions of the Peace.

POST-OFFICE—MR. HILL'S PLAN.
The Duke of Richmondrose to present a petition, most respectably signed by bankers, merchants, and traders of the town of Elgin, praying, in the first place, as the system of railways was now becoming extremely general, that his noble Friend, at the head of the Post-office department, might be directed to re-model the present mode of communication by post, so that greater expedition and a more frequent delivery of letters might be insured. The second prayer of the petition was much more important. The petitioners complained that they paid a postage of 14 d. or 15 d. on letters from London, which they considered exorbitant, and they proposed that the plan published by Mr. R. Hill should be acted on, especially as they understood that the Post-office Commissioners, one of whom was a Cabinet Minister, were of opinion that the experiment should be tried. He, however, was of opinion, that in the present state of the revenue, this could not be done. He feared, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not spare so large an amount of revenue. There was one point which, when he was connected with the Post-office he had always advocated, and which he still continued to support. He was then of opinion, and he now retained the same feeling, which he held in common with the practical officers of the Post-office, that the rates of postage ought to be reduced. If the rates of postage for short distances were reduced, it would be beneficial not only to the towns and neighbourhoods immediately interested, but to the country at large. By taking that step, they would effectually get rid of the illegal conveyance of letters, and the revenue would not suffer. The revenue would be as great, if not greater than at present. If it were not practicable to adopt Mr. Hill's plan, still he thought it would be right to pay some attention to the opinion and authority of the officers of the Post-office, and of several Postmasters-general, and to consider whether it would not be proper to reduce the rate of postage in certain cases. He could not avoid remarking that statements had

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been made by an individual, in which it was alleged that enormous sums of money had been plundered in the Post-office department for a series of years. He would not allude to the offensive manner in which this charge was made by the individual in question, nor would he take further notice of the accusation, for he believed where that person's character was known, no mischief could arise from his representation; and on the other hand, where his (the Duke of Richmond's) character was known he was convinced it would be felt, that even if he had had it in his power, he never would do an act that would justify such an allegation. The fact, however, was, such were the law and the regulations by which the department was governed, that it was impossible for any Postmaster-general to defraud the public, even if he were so inclined.
The Earl of Lichfieldsaid, the matter of this petition was of so much importance, that he felt called on to trouble their Lordships with a few observations connected with it. He should confine himself, as shortly as he could, to an expression of his own opinion on the subject to which the petition referred. The question to which it referred had caused much excitement throughout the country, and that excitement had increased to a very great extent since the report of the Commissioners was published last summer. His noble Friend had alluded to the statements made by an individual who had particularly applied himself to this subject, and who had thought proper to arraign his (the Earl of Lichfield's) conduct. He should not make any observations on the extraordinary language which that individual had thought proper to adopt in stating his opinion through the public press on the conduct of those who were at the head of the Post-office department. It was, however, his duty, at all events, to take the first public occasion which offered for the purpose of endeavouring to disabuse the public mind with reference to statements made by the individual to whom he alluded—statements that were calculated to do infinite mischief to the character of a department in the correctness and honour of which the public had always placed implicit confidence. As to Mr. Rowland Bill's proposition he would say, that no man regretted more than he, that it could not be followed without materially affecting the revenue. It should, however, be ex-
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amined thoroughly, for the purpose of seeing whether any part of it could properly be recommended to the public for adoption. He had, in the last Session, made a few observations on this subject, and he then stated, that in his opinion the plan was not practicable, and to that opinion he still adhered. The question, be it observed, was not merely whether the revenue would suffer by the adoption of this plan. It went much further. It went to this point—that were the plan adopted, instead of a million and a half of money being added to the revenue, after the expenditure of the establishment was provided for, he was quite certain that such a loss would be sustained as would compel them to have recourse to Parliament for money to maintain the establishment. The plan proposed a postage of 1d. throughout the country, and the argument was, that the increased number of letters would meet the deficit in the revenue. Now, the number of letters from which the present revenue was derived was annually 42,000,000 or 43,000,000; and if the reduction proposed was made, the number of letters, in order to secure the existing amount of revenue, must be increased from 42,000,000 to the enormous extent of 480,000,000. It was very well to talk of public accommodation, and to argue, that in consequence of the very low rate of postage an immense number of additional letters would be written; but it was madness to suppose that the correspondence of the country could possibly be increased to such an amount and extent as he had described. The great principle of the plan was to have one uniform rate of postage. This, however, could not, in his opinion, be effected. Suppose the rate of postage in all instances to be fixed at 6d., would persons residing at a short distance be satisfied to pay the same rate that was charged to those who lived much further off? If such a plan were adopted, they would immediately find the former party complaining of the hardship that was imposed on them, and calling on Parliament for relief. These were his reasons for considering the plan as impracticable. The individual to whom his noble Friend had alluded had taken upon himself to make observations upon those who had not at the time any opportunity of answering them—observations, too, of such a nature as were calculated to produce a very mischievous effect on the public mind. Now,

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he would distinctly say, that the statements to which he alluded were scandalous and infamous libels, having no shadow of foundation to rest upon. The noble Earl read an extract from one of these publications, in which the Postmaster-General's conduct was spoken of in vituperative language. Such, said the noble Earl, were the terms in which this individual thought proper to indulge; and he should like to know whether such language as this did not, on his part, call for the strongest possible condemnation. The individual alluded to had stated that large sums of money, contained in letters, were lost in their transit through the Post office. Now, what he was about to state would tend very much to prove that no loss of the sort could be attributed to the Post-office. No person had a right to make such a charge as that unless he had clearly ascertained that all the alleged missing letters had been posted. All monies applied for at the Post-office, on account of letters which had not, from misdirection or other causes, reached their destination, was immediately paid. Of the sum of 600,000 l. alleged to be thus lost or abstracted, 400,000 l. and upwards had been recovered and restored, leaving 200,000 l. unaccounted for. Now, one half if not the whole, of that sum, as his, noble Friend himself must have had opportunities of knowing, might never have been posted. How many letters might have been stolen by clerks or servants, to whom their delivery at the Post-office had been intrusted? Beyond this, could any man suppose, if such an immense sum of money as 200,000 l. had been lost or disappeared in its transit through the Post-office, that the country from one end to the other would not have been in an uproar? The thing was impossible. Now, he should state one case, to show that when letters were posted, and complaint was afterwards made of their non-arrival, every effort was made to set the matter right, and also to prove that letters posted were not so easily lost as some persons might suppose. When he first became connected with the Post-office he received a letter from this individual, stating that a petition and letter had been addressed to him, and that neither the one nor the other had reached its destination. He caused a strict and close investigation to be entered on for the purpose of finding this letter and petition. He ascertained
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that it had been posted, and put in the same bag at Edinburgh. It occurred to him as a very curious circumstance that this letter and petition, both referring to the same matter should alone be missing from the bag, and he wrote to Mr. Wallace to that effect, and stating that every inquiry should be made on the subject. In two or three days afterwards he was apprised that the letter had actually been received, but that this individual had, in consequence of his mind being occupied by a multiplicity of business, carelessly thrown it aside. Another charge made by this individual against the Post-office was, that seals were violated. Was it possible to conceive a more mischievous or disgraceful charge against a public establishment? He should here state one other instance to show how charges of this sort were got up. This individual had written to him to know whether it was possible to post letters after the eight o'clock despatch for the next day; and he wrote, in answer, that they might be posted until twelve o'clock. Immediately afterwards four letters were put into the office by this individual, the seals of which were said to have been violated. They were sealed in the most peculiar manner. He wished that it was possible for him to show to their Lordships the way in which they were sealed. The mere dropping them into the letter-box was sufficient to fracture the seal. One seal was broken in that way, and was so found in the letter-box. It was a frank, and on the outside of it was a memorandum calling on the individual to whom it was addressed to apprise the writer of the fact, should the seal be broken. He wrote to the person to whom he had often alluded, stating the facts, but he had heard nothing further on the subject. And yet, on such a foundation as this, a charge of the violation of seals had been gravely made. Having made these remarks, he should only say, that if hereafter similar charges were made in the same quarter, he would confidently leave it to their Lordships to judge how far they were worthy of belief or attention.
Lord Broughamhad to present a petition on the same subject from (as we understood) certain merchants and traders of London He had examined the arguments of the petitioners, and the statements made by Mr. Hill; he had also listened attentively to the observations of the noble

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Earl, who had come forward with a counter-statement, and he must say that nothing which he had heard had in the least degree shaken his opinions as to the utility and feasibility of Mr. Hill's plan.
Petitions laid on the table.