Sitting of 30 June 1837

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. GILLON, from Ayr, for reduction of the Duty on Stage Coaches.—By Mr. J. MAXWELL, from spitalfields, praying the House
1714
to take into consideration the distress in the manufacturing districts; and from Glagow, praying for relief.—By Mr. CHALMERS, from Arbroath, to the same effect.—By Mr. WYSE, from Ireland, for a general system of Education; and from Newfoundland, complaining of the conduct of Judge Bolton.—Mr. H. LOWTHER, from Westmoreland, against the Poor-Law Amendment Act.—By Dr. BOWRING, from Dumbarton, against the system of conducting the private business of the House.—By Mr. S. CRAWFORD, from Louth, against the Irish Tithes Bill.

MANAGEMENT OF THE POST-OFFICE.
Mr. Laboucherereferred to an amendment which had been made by the Lords in a money clause of one of the Post-office Bills which had been sent up to their Lordships' House, and he requested the Speaker to state, whether such an amendment was contrary to the privileges of that House,
The Speakerwished to state what he understood by the right hon. Gentleman's question. There was a clause in one of the Post-office Bills, containing these words—"and other legal grants," for which had been substituted the words—"and other legal rights," with the view of giving an exemption in the case of certain turnpike tolls. Now, the Bill being strictly a revenue Bill, the House should be very careful how it acted in reference to this amendment; as, in the first place, he did not know to what the exemption applied; or what, in the second place, was to be its extent. He, therefore, thought, it was an exemption which the House could not sanction.
Mr. Labouchere Mr. Labouchere moved, that the amendment made by the Lords in the Bill be read that day three months. Agreed to. The right hon. Gentleman obtained leave to bring in another Bill on the same subject—viz., the management of the Post-office.
The House in a Committee of Ways and Means.

THE BUDGET.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, if it were not for the state of the Session, I should have felt myself bound, even at the hazard of incurring reproach, to give to the House, in the greatest detail in my power, all the information which I could communicate respecting the public finances, and I should prefer exposing myself to reproof for having said too much to the more serious charge of having wilfully concealed or kept back anything; but, under the existing circumstances, knowing that it is impossible to arrest the attention of the House upon any subject whatever, and knowing further, that the statement which

1715
I am about to make, does not necessarily embrace any very extensive or very complicated details, I shall endeavour to confine it within the narrowest limits possible. I regret to say, that I approach the House under circumstances in some respects differing from those under which I approached it on the former occasion, because, undoubtedly, there was at that period, a very general impression out of doors, and, possibly also, within doors, that the state of all branches of our industry, trade, commerce, and manufactures, was such as to inspire all parties with confidence. Undoubtedly, Sir, on that occasion, while there was a general exclamation in favour of what was considered the permanent and increasing state of prosperity in the country, I did take the liberty of earnestly and respectfully calling the attention of the House to certain indications which then showed themselves, and which, in my mind, prevented any extravagant degree of confidence being placed in the existing state of things. Not only in the month of May, last year, when I made that statement, but on various occasions, both antecedent and subsequent to that date, I took the liberty of stating, that there were circumstances connected with the state of commerce, and the great extension of speculative transactions bearing on the credit of the country, which might lead to an alteration of the circumstances which then appeared to be proofs of prosperity. The necessity of caution has been since proved by events which we have all seen; but undoubtedly, as on that occasion I did not think it fitting or justifiable on my part to add, in any the slightest degree, to the confidence which was indulged out of doors, so, on the present, it is not my intention to say—because I should consider that I erred on the ground of policy as well as of truth, if I said I saw in the existing circumstances of the country anything to create serious or lasting apprehensions. On the contrary, I think that, to use a familiar phrase, we have seen the worst. I believe that the prospects around us are brightening, and I confidently rely upon the resources of the country to carry us through any futurity that awaits us if we act with prudence and forbearance, and, above all, if we take no step which can have a tendency to shake or to endanger the credit of the country. On that public credit, depend upon it, Sir, after all, the great resources of the country
1716
depend; and although there may be some vain and delusive reasoners, out of doors, who would wish to persuade the mass of the working population that they are interested in the destruction of public credit, and that between them and the rich there exists a boundary—if there are any, as I know there are many intelligent persons amongst those classes who have the power of reflecting and the power of judging, they well know that the stability of the public resources and the protection of the property of the rich, is precisely the very best protection that can be afforded to the industry and the property of the poor. But, Sir, we are not placed under the necessity of resorting to any general theory to sustain this argument. We know from the returns in which the public credit rests—the returns relative to the public debt—that it is not the great and the wealthy who are mainly interested in it, but the humble and the middle classes, who have a deep and permanent interest in it; and when the hon. Member for Finsbury, in an argument upon a Bill which was last night passed, attempted to assume that the borrower of money and the lender of money were so distinct that whatever was good for the one must necessarily be bad and injurious for the other, he committed precisely the mistake which those do who consider that any effort could be made or any act done to shake the public credit, and not at the same time and in the same proportion to affect the comforts and the industry of the poor. It must be gratifying to those Gentlemen who have turned their attention to the subject to see by all the late returns in the London Gazette, and by the state of the foreign exchanges, that the question relating to the Bank of England, and the amount of bullion in the vaults of that establishment, is every day assuming a better aspect; and that if in the early part of the year, on the state of things which then presented itself, Parliament had taken any imprudent steps, it would have averted those beneficial consequences which place us now in a better situation than we were in then. I need not refer to the amount of bullion which appears in the London Gazette, as compared with the circulation of the Bank of England, but I shall take this opportunity of stating that from the 7th of February last, down to the present period, week by week, there has been a steady and progressive increase of the treasure in the Bank of England. To those who were parties to the Act of 1819, and

1717
to those who were parties to the Bank Charter Act, undoubtedly this information must be gratifying. Sir, I shall now proceed, as shortly as I can, to state to the Committee the income and the expenditure of the year compared with my estimate of the income and expenditure in the course of last Session. I think it will be better at once to state the estimate under each head for last year, and the result. With respect to the income, I calculated that the customs would produce 20,540,000 l., the actual receipt was 21,445,000 l., the excise I calculated at 14,150,000 l., the actual income was 14, 439,000 l., the stamps I calculated at 7,000,000 l., the actual amount was 7,100,000 l., the taxes I estimated at 3,575,000 l., they produced 3,681,000 l., the post-office revenue I calculated at 1,540,000 l., it amounted to 1,618,000 l., the miscellaneous were taken at 175,000 l., they produced a sum of 165,000 l. therefore the income, which on the data then before me I calculated at 46,980,000 l., in fact produced 48,453,000 l., showing a very large excess undoubtedly over and above the calculations which a person of prudence would at that time have ventured upon suggesting. I hope the House will not quarrel with me because the income has exceeded the expenditure. I mean that they will not suspect that I have understated the expenditure with the view of misleading; but, if there is one duty which to me appears more sacred than another, it is not to mislead the House with exaggerated hopes or expectations as to our future resources. I shall now proceed to state the expenditure, and this will show that it is fortunate I did not exaggerate in my views of the income of the year; because, if I had, the difficulty in which I should have been placed, or rather by my mistake the country would have been placed, would have been very great. The expenditure I took thus:—The interest on the funded debt 28,528,000 l.; but the actual payment amounted to 28,537,000 l. Other charges upon the consolidated fund, exclusive of the West India slave compensation (which I left out in order that Gentlemen may be able to make an accurate comparison). I took at 2,092,000 l.; the charge actually was 2,183,000 l.; therefore, in point of fact, there is no great difference between the estimated interest of the funded and the unfunded debt, and the other charges upon the consolidated fund and the actual payments, the estimate having been 30,620,000 l., and the actual
1718
charge 30,720,000 l., making a difference of only 100,000 l. With respect to the supply votes, I need not recapitulate them, as I wish to save the time of the House; but if any hon. Gentleman should wish me afterwards to go into any detail respecting them I shall be able to satisfy him. I calculated the army, the navy, the ordnance, and the miscellaneous estimates for the year at 14,585,000 l.; but that estimate was taken before the whole of the supplies for the year were voted, and the sum actually required was 14,652,000 l., being a small excess above what I originally calculated. The amount of the actual expenditure for these services was 14,351,000 l. There was an additional sum to be provided for bank balances, to meet the claims arising out of what I conceive to be a very proper act—the publication and distribution of unclaimed dividends. The public, undoubtedly, have no right to make a profit of these dividends; and if, by publishing them we have been called upon to pay 69,000 l. I, for one do not regret it, and I am sure the House will think it right that every facility should be given to individuals to obtain what they are entitled to. The estimated expenditure for the year, exclusive of the West India Slave compensation fund, was 45,205,000 l. The actual expenditure was 45,141,000 l. I have hitherto stated the income and the expenditure, without any reference whatever to the West-India loan; I stated to the House, on the former occasion, what was the maximum charge which we were likely to be called upon to pay in the course of the year. I stated also the minimum charge, and I struck an average, and made provision, in striking the balance for meeting that average payment. I calculated that we might be called upon to pay, on account of the current interest, and arrears of interest, 1,111,000 l.; but, in place of the calls upon us being limited to that amount, we have been called upon to pay a sure approaching to the maximum—namely, 1,448,342 l. This, of course, is simply the payment of a debt to which we should have been liable at one period or another, and I rejoice to think that the demand occurred when the income of the country considerably exceeded our expectations—the one being covered by the other, leaving at the present moment a considerable surplus in the hands of the Government, to be applied, under the provisions of the Act of Parliament, to the reduction of the national debt. I have now shown, Sir, that while the income exceeded out

1719
expectations, the expenditure had exceeded the estimate, and I congratulate the House that, under the directions of the Commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, as well as by the payments to those who were entitled under the West India Slave Compensation Act, we have paid off a greater mass of debt than could have been contemplated. It is necessary, not in justification of myself, but in acknowledgment to those Gentlemen who were charged with a very laborious and responsible duty, to explain why the demands of the West India proprietors have exceeded our expectations. It may be mainly traced to the great zeal and industry of the hon. Gentlemen who act as Commissioners for the adjudication of those claims. Seeing the right hon. Gentleman and the noble Marquess opposite, who have considerable knowledge of West India affairs, I think I may confidently appeal to them whether the dispatch, the precision, and the accuracy with which those claims have been investigated by the slave compensation Commissioners, have not been such as to give perfect satisfaction to all parties. A greater amount of business was never done in the same time, and without litigation, for although a solicitor was appointed, and those Gentlemen had the means of resorting to legal authority, yet they avoided it in order to save expense, and themselves performed those functions which would otherwise have been charged for as legal expenses. I shall now proceed to the estimates for the present year, and Gentlemen who take down the figures can easily compare them with the estimates of last year. I regret to say, that I am not in a condition, either with respect to income or with respect to expenditure, to give a very satisfactory account to the House. With respect to the income, I am stating no more than what must be anticipated by every Gentleman whom I have now the honour of addressing—when I say that we cannot have a great pressure upon the commerce, upon the manufactures of the country, without that pressure acting immediately upon the income of the country. It is obvious that, if the power of interchanging our commodities with other countries be diminished, the actual employment of the people in the manufacturing districts must be lessened; and, if their employment be diminished, their means of consumption must be contracted, and the revenue of the excise be diminished. With respect to the customs' duties of last year, undoubtedly circumstances relating to them
1720
much enhanced the receipts. The revenue obtained from the tea duties forestalled to a considerable extent the duties of subsequent years. With respect to bohea tea, parties had the power given them of importing boheas up to a given day at a duty of 1s. 6d., whereas, if they delayed beyond that, they could only import it at a duty of 2s. 1d. The amount of tea duty, last year, exceeded the amount received in former years; and, and at the same time, without any change of duty, the consumption of tea was increasing rapidly in the country. In the state of prosperity and general employment which prevailed, the consumption often had extended amongst all classes of the people, and in many respects had superseded other excisable commodities, which were neither so wholesome nor so conducive to their moral welfare. The amount of tea cleared for home consumption was—in 1833, 31,800,0001bs; in 1834, 34,969,0001bs; in 1835, 36,606,0001bs; in 1836, 49,844,000lbs. I am stating the amount cleared for home consumption. Undoubtedly no man can calculate upon the consumption of last year as a fair exponent of what, under ordinary circumstances, would have been the amount of revenue arising from tea. I know that a certain proportion of this amount, but a very small proportion, has been re-exported. In the year ending the 5th of April, 1836, the tea duty amounted to 3,886,000 l. In the year ending the 5th of April, 1837, the amount was 4,603,000 l. Whilst, therefore, on the one hand, we should be in error in not taking into the account the circumstance, that the alteration of the law produced an increased consumption of tea, so, on the other hand, we should be equally in error if we considered the whole of the increase attributable to that cause, because the increase which manifested itself in former years in the consumption of tea would have gone on even in an accumulated ratio in this year, had no change in the law been made. All I wish to impress upon the Committee with respect to the customs' revenue is, that a large proportion of the amount derived last year cannot be expected to arise in the year which is now before us. In like manner in the expenditure there is a considerable item of charge which is not to be disregarded, and to which the attention of Gentlemen must undoubtedly be called. I allude to the increased interest now pay-

1721
able on the unfunded debt of the country.—In the month of September last I felt it my duty to increase the interest on the twelve millions of Exchequer Bills then outstanding from the rate of 1½d to 2d a day; and at a subsequent period, namely, towards the close of the month of November, I increased the interest upon the whole of the unfunded debt of the country from 2d to 2½ a-day, being about 3¾ per cent. I did so very reluctantly, because no man, and particularly if he be responsible for the expenditure of the country, feels any great gratification in diminishing the surplus in his hands, and thus depriving himself in the same proportion of the means of reducing taxation. But I did so on grounds which appeared to me sufficient, and which I have had no reason since to regret; although for a time, and I hope for a short time only, it has added to the expenditure of the country. At the period when the arrangements in question took place there were persons in the city of London, and bankers in various parts of the country, who at that moment of pressure and embarrassment found it extremely difficult to realise those public securities which they held in order to meet the engagements to which they might be subjected; and I did not think it proper or just, or consistent with the public credit of the country, that Exchequer Bills, which at that moment were floating between a trifling or rather a nominal premium and par, should be suffered to fall to a discount; and, above all, I thought it of importance, with respect to the bankers, who take that course which I think prudent and safe—namely, to furnish themselves with public securities to meet any risk—I thought it of importance to them that they should not find those securities not available in the pressure by which they were assailed and at a moment when they had a difficulty in meeting their engagements. If I had delayed that measure, and the Exchequer Bills had fallen to a discount, then, be assured that, sooner or later, it would have behoved the Government to have raised the interest. That was the course taken in 1825, when the calamities and dangers brought the floating debt of the country—to a low rate of discount. That was the course taken by my right hon. Friend opposite, the Member for Harwich; but the interposition was in the first instance almost too late, and we had, at the same time, an increase of the in-
1722
terest on Exchequer Bills, and a continuance of Exchequer Bills, at a very low rate of discount. I, therefore, felt it expedient, upon every possible ground to increase the interest upon these securities especially at a period when what has since occurred might have been anticipated—namely, the circumstance of Foreign and American securities coming over into this market, and inducing persons to invest their capital by the temptation of a high rate of interest. I felt, undoubtedly, that it was for the public advantage that the rate of interest upon these securities should be increased. I have adverted to this subject now for the purpose of saying, that whilst, on the one hand, we cannot reckon upon the same amount of revenue for the current year which we received last, so with respect to that portion of the charge which relates to the unfunded debt, the burthen will be heavier which the country has to sustain. But it is not simply on this account that the burthen is increased, because gentlemen who refer to the estimates will find charges introduced in those estimates, upon which, until a very late period, we had no reason to calculate. I need not advert to them particularly at present. They are in the papers on the table of the House. Some of them have been voted, others remain to be voted, but the total amount which, up to a late period, we were not prepared to calculate upon comes very close upon 300,000 l. The charges upon the Consolidated Fund, and the interest upon the funded and the unfunded debt, for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is bound to provide for the year that is now current amount to 30,890,000 l. The estimates for the year I take as follows the army 6,401,000 l.1; the navy 4,688,000 l. the ordnance 1,302,000 l.; the miscellaneous 2,504,000 l. These figures do not entirely concur with the votes on the table—for instance, the navy vote, including the amount which will be wanted for the Post-office packets, is greater than that which I have stated by a sum of 100,000 l.; but the reason of the difference is, that the navy have for a time undertaken a task which heretofore has been performed by the Post-office. It will be said that if this charge be transferred to the navy vote, a corresponding diminution ought to be made in the establishment of the Post-office, and such, in fact, will he the case. I estimated the expense of the packet service at 100,000 l., and have

1723
simply transferred it from the one account to the other—from the Post-office account to the navy account. In like manner it will be seen, that the miscellaneous votes are less in amount than the votes on the table, by the amount of the sum proposed to be voted for the civil expenses of Lower Canada. But in point of fact this sum is only to be regarded as an advance, because the funds out of which these civil expenses ought to be paid, are actually at this moment in the treasury of Lower Canada, and cannot be paid out of that treasury without the consent of the Crown. This vote, therefore, is only a vote of credit to be covered by the sum in the Canadian treasury. The money there is a security for the repayment of the sum voted, and which amounts to 104,000 l. Thus, then, it is estimated that the expenditure of the current year will be 45,786,415 l.. That is exclusive of the West-India compensation, the amount of which, payable within the year, will be 845,000 l., leaving a gross surplus of income over the expenditure, as far as I have hitherto gone, of no more than 608,585 l. Those hon. Members who advert to the papers laid before the House on the 8th of May, will see that on this occasion, as on former occasions, upon the estimates prepared by the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, it is necessary to provide a sum to make good the deficiencies of the ways and means in preceding years. The sum required for this purpose is 223,912 l.., which, deducted from the gross surplus of 608,585 l. will leave only a net surplus of 384,673 l. I assure the House that I have drawn up my statement of the actual income and expenditure of the country without the slightest attempt to conceal or to withhold anything. I am only anxious to acquaint the House with the state of things as it actually exists. I turn now to the amount of income upon which I calculate for the current year. I take the income to be derived from the customs at 21,100,000 l., which is 345,452 l. less than the amount of customs last year—the actual receipt of the year ending 5th April, 1837, being 21,445,452 l. I shall not make a large estimate for the excise. It will be remembered that there was a considerable reduction in the receipts of the excise last year, chiefly arising perhaps from the falling off in the consumption of malt, as will be seen from the following table, showing the number of bushels of malt upon which
1724
the duty has been paid since the year 1834:—

MALT.

Bushels.

Bushels.

1834

40,517,000

1836

45,509,000

1835

40,662,000

1837

42,642,000

Decrease from 1836 to 1837

2,867,000

Average of 1834,1835, 1836

42,229,000

But the prospects of the excise for the current year are of such a nature as to induce me to believe that if there should be a falling-off in the customs there will be an increase in the excise. I know that this is more or less a matter of speculation; but as far as I am able to judge, I have every reason to believe that, without any fear of being contradicted by the result, I may take the estimate of the income to be derived from the excise in the current year at 13,800,000 l., being 639,391 l. less than the actual receipts of the excise for the year ending the 5th April, 1837. Upon stamps I have no doubt there will be a loss, because the repeal, which only partially affected the last year will of course come into full operation in the current year. I calculate the income to be derived from stamps at 6,800,000 l.; but I have reason to believe that they will produce a trifle more. The taxes of the year I estimate at 3,710,000 l., being a slight increase on the 3,681,917 l. which was the product of the taxes in the past year. The income derived from the Post-office last year was 1,618,000 l. I estimate it at 1,660,000 l. this year. The income from miscellaneous sources will be about 170,000 l. Thus the gross amount of the estimated income of the year I take at 47,240,000 l., while the income of the past year was 48,453,000 l. I have to apologise to the House for reversing the usual course of proceeding by stating the income before the expenditure, but I will, however, call attention to the latter. The amount of the expenditure for the present year will be, according to my estimate, 45,786,000 l., without the interest on the West-India loan, leaving a surplus of 1,454,000 l. When the interest on the West-India loan, however, amounting to 846,000 l. is included, the surplus will be reduced to 608,585 l.; but that sum, for the reasons I have already stated, must be reduced by the amount of the sums necessary to be advanced to meet the deficiency of former years, so that in fact the net surplus and upon which only we can calculate is 384,673 l. I regret most

1725
sincerely that this amount must disappoint the expectations of many hon. Gentlemen, and I confess it disappoints my own. I could have wished that the surplus had been larger. There were two or three important questions with respect to the reduction of taxation which I was most anxious to have had an opportunity of proposing; and although I am not at the present moment in a condition to bring them forward, I will not suffer them to escape my recollection. If, after the event which is now publicly announced of a dissolution, there should be an early sitting of the new Parliament, it would in my opinion, be most desirable, if the improved condition of the finances and commerce of the country should permit it, that several of the claims which have been advanced for a reduction of taxation should be taken into consideration. As I have already stated, notwithstanding the difficulty and pressure of the moment, I have no great apprehension for the real and permanent resources of the country. There may be danger in high-flown and exaggerated statements with respect to the finances of the country, as in the case of the honourable Bank director who on a former occasion spoke of a "passing cloud," and of the hon. Member for Sunderland, who indulged in another and a stronger metaphor; but there is no danger in telling the simple truth—namely, that the commercial crisis which has occurred, but which, I hope, is now rapidly passing away, has produced a temporary pressure and inconvenience; but there is nothing, and has been nothing, in that pressure and inconvenience which ought to make a man of reasonable firmness and courage consider that any portion of the main resources of this country are in any the slightest degree permanently compromised or affected. I have before me—if the disposition of the House were different from that which I expect it to be—if I could claim, for a short time, the attention of the House to an extraneous subject—I have before me the means of showing that, within the last two or three weeks, the elements of improvement have been developing themselves in various parts of the country, and that various branches of trade and manufacture which have been amongst the most depressed, are rapidly reviving, and exhibiting symptoms of an improvement. I could show, that the receipts of the revenue
1726
have also, as a natural consequence, considerably improved, and that the condition of the country generally is such as to give a reasonable man much more confidence now than could possibly have been felt two months ago. I may be allowed to say, with respect to the former efforts I have made as finance Minister, that the experiments I have tried in the reduction of duties, have been attended with so much success, with so many good and valuable consequences, as to induce me, whenever the opportunity shall present itself, to persevere in the same course. Let me refer, first, to the duty on glass. Having, in a former year, a surplus with which I could deal, I applied it in the way which I thought best calculated to give relief to important branches of trade and manufacture, and a portion of it went towards the reduction of the duty on glass. What has been the result? Why, the revenue upon the manufacture of that article, which previously had been falling off from year to year, and from quarter to quarter, immediately revived; and from that time to the present moment, that which before was a decreasing and almost ruinous trade was now a rapidly-increasing, a thriving, and a prosperous trade—a trade that had increased, too, in a legitimate way; for whilst fraudulent exports, for the sake of the drawback, have diminished, the home consumption and the bonâ fide foreign exportation have greatly increased. In the same way, with respect to paper, a large reduction was made in the duty upon paper. The result has been most satisfactory; because, I find, that whilst in the quarter ending the 5th January, 1836, the quantity of paper charged with duty, was 18,000,000 lbs., the quantity charged with duty at the quarter ending the 5th January, 1837, was 28,000,000 lbs., being an increase of 10,000,0001bs. upon the manufacture of paper in the course of the year. It may be said, that it is not fair to attribute this increase entirely to the alteration in the amount of the duty, because the reduction of the stamp-duty on newspapers, must greatly have increased the consumption of paper. No doubt that was a fact in a very material degree. The House must be aware of the enormous increase of newspaper circulation in the country since the alteration of the stamp-duty, and they are now aware of the effect which the reduction has produced upon the paper-

1727
duty also. I have shown the amount of income and expenditure of the last year, and I have stated the estimated amount of each for the current year. I undertake to make provision for all the branches of the public service, and I have no doubt that they will be adequately carried out; but still, taking all things at the best, I cannot calculate upon a surplus of more than 384,000 l., or, to speak in round numbers, 400,000 l. Can any one imagine, that that is a surplus upon which, as an honest man, I could propose any speculative reduction of taxation. I could not venture to do so, even under a very different aspect of affairs, and in a much better state of things; but in the present doubtful state of commerce and revenue, remembering the events of recent occurrence, and carefully regarding the circumstances which ate before us still—circumstances of doubt and uncertainty—I do not think there is any Gentleman who would be disposed to ask for a reduction of taxation. I, for one, if any Gentleman were to make such a request, should feel it my duty to resist it. It would have been more popular, undoubtedly, to run the risk of trying an experiment—to speak of the revenue being brought up by increased consumption—to speculate on the future prospects and condition of the country—to have propitiated the hon. Member for Middlesex by talking of a reduction of the Corn-laws, and the hon. Member for Lambeth by insinuating a reduction of the duty on soap, and to have proposed to the shipping interests a reduction of the duty on marine insurances: this would have been all very popular, but it would not be consistent with the conduct of an honest man, nor would so acting be consistent with the conduct of an honest House of Commons. No honest House of Commons, for the sake of popularity of any kind, would consent to endanger the real and permanent interests of the country. As I have already stated, I do not feel an apprehension with respect to the future. I trust that, with respect to that branch of our commercial relations which has been most seriously affected—I mean the United States of America—I trust that that great and improving country may feel, as we in England have always felt, that private commercial honour is one of the proudest attributes that any country can boast; and that there is no way in which they
1728
can recommend their free institutions, or advance heir national credit and national character more effectually than by a careful and watchful solicitude for the maintenance of their commercial credit. In no other country in the world is the prosperity and well-being of the state more eminently fixed upon a commercial footing than it is in America. I trust, therefore, that we shall see in that country strong efforts made, not only to preserve its commercial credit, but to prevent it for the future from being assailed by so rude a shock as that by which it has lately been visited. I thank the House for the patience with which it has listened to me. I have told the House the utmost amount of surplus upon which I can calculate; that surplus is not one which gives me the means of proposing any reduction of taxation. But I think it is still something for the country to say, that we have in the present year been enabled to complete to the utmost our engagements to the West-India proprietors—that we have made every provision for the due and proper discharge and execution of the public service—that we have done so under a commercial pressure quite unexampled since the year 1825, without any increase of the public burthens—and that we have a surplus (albeit a small one) still remaining. I conclude by moving, that a sum of 13,622,300 l. be raised by Exchequer Bills to meet the expenditure of the ensuing year.
In reply to a question from Mr. Hume,
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid: I will state to my hon. Friend the amount of the funded and unfunded debt paid off, not only in the last year, but in every year since I have been in office. The right hon. Gentleman read the following table:—

AMOUNT OF FUNDED AND UNFUNDED DEBT PAID OFF BY THE COMMISSIONERS FOR THE REDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT IN EACH OF THE FOLLOWING YEARS.

Funded Debt.

Unfunded Debt.

1831

£963,110

£1,705,900

1832

5,695

—

1833

792,579

230,954

1834

1,775,378

995

1835

519,627

750,250

1836

566,143

1,018,000

Total

£4,622,532

3,706,099

4,622,532

£8,328,631

Mr. Humewas not one of those who was anxious for an immediate reduction of the debt of the country, which he did not think so advantageous as applying the surplus revenue to the reduction of those taxes which pressed upon industry. He had always wished for an empty Exchequer as the means of calling the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the necessity of adopting a more rigid system of economy. Well, there was an empty Exchequer, but he was afraid that it would not produce the effect he desired upon the right hon. Gentleman. If the Government had been inclined to reduce two or three regiments of infantry and of cavalry, they might have had a corresponding reduction in the estimates; but this course had not been adopted. On the contrary, the military and naval force remained the same as in past years; and, consequently, the extravagant estimates of past years were continued. He did not accuse the Chancellor of the Exchequer of being wilfully extravagant; but it really seemed to be a kind of second nature with men in office to adhere to the established system of expenditure, be the amount ever so excessive. The heads of departments felt a reluctance to make any reduction; and whenever any independent Member complained of the expense of their establishments, they, on all occasions, became the apologists of the existing system. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been more watchful over the estimates, and had paid more attention to the reduction of unnecessary charges, he would now have been in possession of a considerable surplus. The time was gone by for making any reductions during the present session. The result was, that they were now about to return to their constituents without having done anything during the present session to relieve the people from the pressure of taxation. If her Majesty's Ministers really expected the confidence and support of the people, they must be prepared in the next Parliament to proceed on different grounds, and produce different results. The right hon. Gentleman had expressed a hope that the worst of the crisis which had befallen the country had passed by. The real causes of the crisis, in his opinion, were to be found in the conduct, in the first place, of the right hon. Gentleman himself in contracting the 15,000,000 l. loan; and in the next place, in the conduct of the Bank of England
1730
after that loan had been contracted. To these two circumstances he attributed the whole of the embarrassments which this country had experienced. He hoped, however, that a new Parliament would make amends for the errors of the present.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerin explanation, stated, that the estimates of the present year had been increased by some items of a peculiar character, and which were created by Parliament itself, or by the commercial necessity of the country. Of this kind were the charges incident to the expedition to ascertain the practicability of opening a steam communication with India; the making a provision for educating the emancipated slaves in the West Indies; the preparing of the plans of the intended new Houses of Parliament; the formation of a prison establishment in the Isle of Wight, and other charges of a peculiar nature.
Mr. Richardssaid, that the right hon. Gentleman had promised to give every information on the subject which the financial statement of a minister was supposed to embrace; but what was the information he had really furnished? Simply this—that the commerce and manufactures of the country were in a state of deep distress, that the revenue of the country had fallen off, and that he could not reduce the taxes. That was the amount of the information which the right hon. Gentleman had thought fit to come down and give to the House and the country. But the information which he wanted was this—what had occasioned the distress now prevailing throughout the country? Humble individual as he was, he yet would presume to give that explanation which the right hon. Gentleman had omitted to do. He charged the whole of the distress of this country upon the want of attention of the right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to his duty, or else to his gross ignorance of the nature of that duty. Perhaps this was the last occasion on which he should have the honour to address that House. However he should proceed in the discharge of his duty in spite of any party interruptions. He charged the Government with having falsified the balances of the country by tampering with the currency for their own selfish purposes, and merely for the sake of keeping themselves in office, reckless of the misery they inflicted on others. In his mind it was perfectly evident that the Chancellor of the Ex-

1731
chequer was either grossly ignorant of his duty, or that he altogether neglected it. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that there would be no falling-off in the malt and hay duties; now he (Mr. Richards) would bet two hundred guineas to one that the harvest would not be so productive as to fulfil the expectations of the right hon. Gentleman.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerbegged to observe, that he left the Bank of England unchecked and uncontrolled in their proceedings as to Exchequer Bills; therefore, the hon. Gentleman was wrong in his statement, that it was in his power to control that body. He had never lowered the interest of Exchequer Bills, and was not aware of the circumstances on which the hon. Member grounded his charge; on that account, therefore, he might be open to the accusation made against him by the hon. Gentleman of gross ignorance of his duty or negligence. With reference to the wager offered by the hon. Gentleman, he had no doubt as to winning it.
Mr. Richardsadmitted he had fallen into a mistake as to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. J. Maxwellconcurred in the observations of the hon. Member for Knaresborough, and he was perfectly ready to back the hon. Member in the bet which he had proposed to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. In his judgment, the cause of the distress now prevailing was, that the country was obliged to find gold at 3l. 17 s. 10½d. per ounce, whatever might be the price actually paid for it. He had hoped, that before the Parliament had separated, something would have been done to relieve the suffering labouring classes of the country, and that a commission of inquiry into the causes of that distress would have been issued. No reduction had been effected in taxation, which might well have been done by a reduction of the army. That reduction, even the hon. Member for Middlesex had prevented, by forcing into the Irish Tithe Bill the appropriation clause, by which the settlement of the Tithe Question in Ireland had been put off for two years, and by which delay the presence of an army in Ireland was rendered absolutely necessary. What was the use of talking of reducing the tax on soap and malt, when the people were actually pawning their clothes and their blankets to obtain means of purchasing a
1732
loaf. He had heard of a family of seven children being found in Spitalfields without any clothes to put on, and the extent of distress was shown by the petitions he had that day presented, signed by 5,000 residents in Spitalfields, and by upwards of 3,000 of the labouring classes resident in Glasgow. He hoped and trusted, that the feeling of the country generally would oblige her Majesty's Ministers to stir from what were called, and erroneously called, the sound doctrines of trade, and that they would free themselves from the trammels in which the principles of theorists and political economists had placed them.
Mr. Huttthought, that notwithstanding the small surplus, which the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised, the right hon. Gentleman might well have effected a reduction in the rate of interest in Exchequer Bills from 3l. 15 s. to 3l. 6s. 8d. He also regretted, that it had not been proposed, that the whole monetary and banking system of the country should be subjected to a searching and complete revision, and he trusted that this important subject would early be brought under the attentive consideration of the new Parliament.
Mr. Gillonjoined in the regret expressed by his hon. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, that the surplus should be so small. But, notwithstanding the small-ness of the surplus, he thought the House might as well have entered into the experiment of a reduction in the Soap-tax with perfect safety. The right hon. Gentleman might have acted on the Report of the Commissioners, and proposed a reduction of one-third of the present duty on soap, with regard to which all the reasons to which the right hon. Gentleman had adverted as having induced him to reduce the duties on glass equally applied. By the reduction of the duty on soap, he felt convinced the revenue would be increased instead of diminished, for at present in 66 towns in England and Scotland which in the year 1820 had licensed soap-makers, there was not a single licensed manufactory of soap, and within that period the amount of revenue derived from the commodity had fallen 4½ per cent. It was too bad, after twenty-two years of profound peace, that 6,500,000 l. of money should be required for the maintenance of an army. The force formerly kept up in Ireland was rendered unnecessary now by

1733
the mild and wise administration of affairs in that branch of the empire; and no consideration should deter him from pressing the repeal of the Soap-tax, which weighed more upon the poor than the rich, and which would never be reduced while such an army and such extensive establishments were kept up. He thought measures ought to have been taken to secure a grant for the relief of the suffering portion of the population. The right hon. Gentleman said, he had not the means, but he ought to have found out the way to provide the means. Something ought now to be done with regard to the Civil and the Pension-lists. The bargain entered into at the beginning of the last reign was now at an end, and he hoped a more favourable bargain to the people would be struck.
Mr. Claysaid, the financial statement of the right hon. Gentleman certainly was not so cheering as others which the House had of late years been accustomed to hear, but under existing circumstances, it was as favourable as could be expected. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, that the present depression of the commercial interest would soon cease. The resources of the country were not reduced; already there were symptoms of a revival of the national industry, and he trusted they would soon see that vast portion of the population of the country which depended on trade and manufacture in full employment, and consequently in a state of comfort. He did not think, that they should at present meddle with the management of the Bank of England: when the proper time came to investigate the affairs of that establishment, he should be ready to second the hon. Member for Middlesex in attempting to bring about an investigation. He thought the power of making paper money ought not to be intrusted to any man, or anybody of men, irrespective of the control of the Government. He had hoped, that the Committee on Joint-stock Banks would have been able, before the close of the present Session, to present some recommendations to the Government on the subject; but no doubt his right hon. Friend had sufficient reasons for not urging the Committee to make their Report this Session, and he thought himself that, in reference to such a question, it was much more important to legislate well than rapidly. He would, however, call on the Government, during
1734
the recess, to mature some measure respecting Joint-stock Banks. He also hoped, that in future the issue of the paper currency would be confined to one single body, and that that body would be made responsible to the supreme Government of the country. The right hon. Gentleman had been charged with neglecting the interests of the working classes, and was condemned for not carrying through Parliament a measure for the regulation of the wages of operatives. As a Representative of a borough, which contained many persons of that class, he could only say, that he thought the man who succeeded in carrying such a plan would be their greatest foe, and that the measure itself would be a curse instead of a blessing.
Mr. Robinsonthought, that the announcement made by the right hon. Gentleman that night, would create great disappointment throughout the country. The surplus was much less than that of last year, and the state of things at present was much worse than at that period, nor was there any prospect of an improvement, because all the circumstances that led to the reduction of taxation in past years were now at an end. There was an increase of no less than 200,000 l. in the army estimates, and little short of the same sum in the navy estimates, besides an increase of the ordnance and miscellaneous estimates. There was, at the same time, a falling-off in the resources, and the country, instead of being relieved from any taxes, was likely to be called upon to make up deficiencies. He did not join the hon. Member for Knaresborough in charging the right hon. Gentleman with causing the difficulties under which the trade and monetary system of the country laboured; but he would say, that he believed the time was come when all hope of further reduction of taxation was vain, unless some means were taken to reduce the expenditure. He had hoped, that the right hon. Gentleman would have come down to the House prepared to reduce the duty on marine insurances. He admitted, that the surplus of 384,000 l. was not one on which he could draw very largely under existing difficulties, but he thought the right hon. Gentleman might at least have given that boon to the shipping interest. In his opinion, the time was come when, after every exertion had been made to reduce taxation, it would be

1735
necessary to consider the whole question of taxation on a much broader basis than hitherto, and to inquire how the supplies could be raised without pressing so unnecessarily as at present on the industry of the country.
Mr. Wallacesaid, the budget had been promised from time to time, and now it was brought forward there was nothing in it. The right hon. Gentleman in opening his budget, as he called it, had accused the merchants and commercial men of the kingdom of being neglectful of those suggestions which he threw out in the month of May last, for the purpose of putting them on their guard as to how far they ought to proceed with the speculations and enterprises in which they had been engaged. He believed that the whole of the distresses of the country were to be attributed to the powers of the Bank of England, and that it would be the duty of that House at the earliest possible period, to institute a specific inquiry into those powers, with a view to some effective reform. Something decisive must soon be done. The specie had gone out of the country, and now the Bank of England, after having sent it away on a speculation wished to get it back at the expense of the public. The right hon. Gentlemen who occupied the Ministerial seats could not retain them unless they would reduce taxation. But after all the promises they had made to do so they had done nothing. They had not even attempted to adopt the plan of retrenchment in the Post-office management, which Mr. Hill had so ably pointed out.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the charge which the hon. Gentleman represented him to have made against the commercial interest of the country, that it had not profited by the advice he gave in April last, existed only in the hon. Gentleman's imagination.
Colonel Thompsonsaid, when so many hon. Members have their causes for the distresses of the country, I too may be permitted to have my nostrum. Allow the men who are declared to be starving to purchase food were they can gel it. Might it not move a grave man to smile, to see the Government of a great commercial country balancing and making inquest after a little gain in one place, and a little loss in another, and all the while the traders of that community were forbidden to bring from abroad the only
1736
kind of goods that would pay, because they were the only kind that were wanted here? It was like betting on the Derby stakes, every horse to have one leg tied up. Would it not be well, among other schemes, to think of altering this? The hon. Member for Lanarkshire, for instance, when he brought forward, as he promised to-night, the distresses of the hand-loom weavers, will he join me or allow me to join him, in calling for relief by letting them purchase cheap bread where they can? This is where the public will some day find the mischief lie, and here they will look for the remedy in preference to all the other ways suggested.
Mr. Pottersaid, that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Knaresborough, had asserted that there was a diminished quantity of food in the country; and that if the harvest should turn out a late one a great scarcity would ensue. He was astonished that, entertaining such opinions, he did not make an effort to obtain a quantity of food by letting out the corn now in bond. Late as it was, the House ought to endeavour to effect this most desirable object. He considered the bread-tax the most oppressive of all taxes. It oppressed the country by keeping bread at an extravagant price, and checking our foreign trade: but the landed interest would not make the slightest concession. The effort which was made to grind bonded corn they refused to allow, and that was a measure which would have released capital to some extent, and given employment to our shipping. The landed interest had a complete monopoly of the home market, not only in grain but in animal food. Salted meat was liable to a duty of 12 s. per cwt., and fresh meat was entirely prohibited. This ought not to be.
Mr. Wakleyobjected to the budget being delayed till so late a period of the Session. When the right hon. Gentleman was asked what reduction of taxation he intended to propose, he replied, "Stop till I bring in the budget." Thus they were wheedled on, and now, when they were near the last day of the Session, they found that there was to be no reduction of taxation at all. The only way of preventing the recurrence of such a mode of transacting the public business was to make the financial year terminate, as was proposed by the hon. Gentleman, in January, instead of in April, as at present. There could be no reduction of taxation while they voted such

1737
extravagant estimates. They had voted 21,000 l. for putting Marlborough-house in a state of repair for the Queen Dowager. ["Hear, hear," from the Opposition Members.] The hon. Gentlemen opposite cheered that point. That lady had 100,000 l. a-year allowed her out of the public purse, yet she had not enough to be able to spare what was necessary to put a single palace in order. He would give another example of what the House was disposed to do. They had voted 9,000 l. for three pictures! This looked like a job. If these were times of distress the public money ought not to be so applied. The budget should have been produced at an earlier period, and then they would have known the circumstances of the country before they voted the estimates; but under their present system they voted money without being acquainted with the amount of their resources.
Mr. G. F. Youngdoubted whether the House would sympathise with the hon. Member for Finsbury in his clap-trap objections. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had exercised a sound discretion in delaying the budget. If he had brought it forward six weeks or two months ago, considering what was then the commercial situation of the country, he would probably greatly have aggravated the embarrassment existing in the commercial world.
Vote agreed to.
House resumed and went into Commitee.

SUPPLY.—MUSEUM.—THE LATE SPEAKER.
29,400 l. were proposed for the expenses of the British Museum.
Lord Stanleysaid, upon Easter Monday there were 23,985 persons who had visited the Museum, and upon Whit-Monday 30,000 and odd persons had visited it. He was happy to observe that no damage was done, notwithstanding the great attendance.
Colonel Thompsonsaid, like the preceding speaker, he could not allow the vote to pass without noticing that it was not among the working classes, but the aristocratic classes, the Iconoclasts were found. He appealed to the public papers, and the records of the courts of law, to show that it was not the working classes whom it was dangerous to admit within the wind of a public monument. He could
1738
not also avoid noting the grievous injustice of taxing the working classes among others for the support of the British Museum, and then cutting them off from the use of it on the only day they had leisure to enjoy it. As the hon. Baronet the Member for Wigtonshire had given notice of what he would do in another Parliament if he found his way there, so he (Colonel Thompson) hoped it was competent to him to say, that if he was not among the dying swans, so many of whom had sung to-night—he trusted to be able to give some assistance towards relieving the working classes in the metropolis from this crying injustice.
The vote was agreed to.
On the question that the Chairman leave the chair,
Sir F. Pollockwished to call the attention of the House to the losses sustained by the late Speaker and the officers of the House from the fire in 1834. The amount of the losses they had suffered altogether did not exceed 6,000 l. or 7,000 l. This was a claim on the justice of the House. The fire had originated through the gross neglect of public servants in a distant part of the building; and by the common law of the land, where a fire occurred through the neglect of any one occupying premises, or his servant, or his guest, or even a stranger, the occupier was responsible for the damage done. This responsibility had been done away by the statute of George 3rd, except as to any of the Royal palaces, or any house or building in possession of the Crown, for the use or service of the Sovereign. But he did not think the House would in a case of this nature be guided by the strict law of the case, but would be inclined to take a liberal view of the matter; more particularly as in all previous fires in Royal palaces those persons who had suffered loss had been fully indemnified. If it was stated, that those persons ought to have insured, then he would meet that statement by saying, that they were not bound to insure, and that they had a right to look for protection from without, and that they ought not, therefore, to suffer from the negligence of others. He would venture, too, to say, that if the late Speaker had insured his property there was not an office in London which would not, under the circumstances, have refused, and justly, to make good the loss sustained, He would, however, put the case to the liberality of the House, and not

1739
on its strict legal merits; and he trusted the House would not refuse to sanction the just claims of those who had suffered so seriously from no negligence of their own.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not wish to argue the matter in an adverse manner with the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, and only wished to explain the principle upon which the Government had acted. The claim had previously been made, and the Treasury had pronounced upon it; but the Government had felt, that they could not have justified themselves to the public had they paid the amount of loss sustained. The Treasury had not, however, heard of the claim of the late Speaker till a considerable time after the fire, and he had never heard of the claims of any other persons till they were brought forward by the hon. and learned Gentleman. He, however, admitted, that the same rule which was applied in the one case ought to be applied to the other; and if compensation was granted to the Speaker, the loss which had been sustained by others should also be made good. When the claim of the Speaker had been brought forward, the Government did not know of any precedent which would have justified them in compensating the loss; for the case of the fire in St. James's was not in point, as there the losses sustained were paid out of the privy purse, and not by the Woods and Forests. But although the Government had felt that they would not be justified in paying the claim which was made, the House might deal with the matter differently, and sanction the payment of the loss by a vote of that Committee. With respect to this case the Government had learned that the late Speaker had, up to a late period previously to the fire, insured his furniture, and that in fact his property in the house, which had been consumed, had up to the time when he first determined to resign the Chair been com-completely covered. When that determination was formed he had discontinued his insurances, but he had afterwards from the representations which had been made to him of the importance to the public service of his continuing to fill the chair, been induced to change his resolution, and to continue Chairman of that House. Against his own wishes he had consented to resume his duties as Speaker of that House, in deference to the wishes of those
1740
who desired the House might have the benefit of his great experience and talents. But when he returned to his duties at the general request of the House, he had not renewed his insurances, and it was after he had sacrificed his own wishes for the public good that his property had been consumed. It was when considered in this point of view that the case of Lord Canterbury would have great weight with the Committee, and he thought that when so considered his claim was entitled to the most favourable construction. When the fire broke out, his Lordship was not the permanent Speaker of the House, and only held it for a short period for the public good, and at the earnest and pressing desire of the House. The only reason the Government had for refusing payment of the claim was, that they were afraid to establish a dangerous precedent, but he was sure that it would be more gratifying to Lord Canterbury to have his loss made good, after a discussion in that House, by a vote of the Committee; and if the Committee decided that compensation should be granted, he, for one, would be much gratified by such a decision.
Mr. Warburtonthought the House ought to be on its guard; and he did not believe that any insurance office would have refused under the circumstances to make good the loss.
Mr. Bannermanconsidered the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir F. Pollock) unanswerable in a legal point of view; but he trusted the House in this case would not confine itself to the legal merits of the question, but act upon principles of liberality and common sense. He hoped there would be no party feeling mixed up with the question for he was convinced that if the present Speaker were to suffer a similar loss, hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House would be the first to propose an indemnification for that loss. Lord Canterbury and the whole of those who had suffered were fully and justly entitled to compensation, and he hoped the House would not refuse its sanction to the payment of what had so strong a claim on the favourable attention of the House.
Mr. Richardswas sure the people of England would applaud the House should it sanction the payment of those claims. The people of England would consider that they had only discharged their duty in making good the losses sustained by a

1741
man who had with the greatest ability filled for eighteen years the chair of that House.
Mr. Grotethought, that should the present Speaker, neglect to insure his property in Carlton-terrace, there would be no good claim upon the House to pay any loss which he might sustain by fire. He did not think the House was called upon to pay the claim which had been brought forward by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
The House resumed,

IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.
On the motion for bringing up the Report on the Imprisonment for Debt Bill,
Mr. Richards Mr. Richards moved, that it be brought up that day three months, because he thought the House had not had sufficient opportunity of examining the details of the Bill.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, that the Bill had been now a long time before the House, and had passed several times through Committee.
Sir F. Pollockagreed to the principle of the measure, but he objected to one clause, which enabled any creditor to make a trader a bankrupt if he did not give security within twenty-one days after being called on to do so for the payment of his debts. Such a change in the law could not, he contended, be effected without creating alarm and disgust amongst the smaller tradesmen.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, he had not inserted the clause in the Bill as it was originally proposed, but had been induced to introduce it by the representations of commercial men of all classes. Under the old law, if a trader were arrested for a debt only exceeding 20 l. and remained in gaol for three weeks, it became in the eye of the law an act of bankruptcy. Now, the only change which he proposed was, that the creditor should stand in as good a situation as before, without exposing the debtor to the evils of imprisonment, and he added that he was quite willing to limit the security to appearing, and not extend it to actual payment of the debt.
Mr. Richardswithdrew his first amendment, and moved that the House do adjourn,
The House divided on the motion:—Ayes 20; Noes 58; Majority 38.
We give the List on the first Division only.

List of the AYES.

Alsager, Captain

Hindley, C.

Archdall, M.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Brotherton, J.

Lefroy, right hon. T.

Chandos, Marquess of

Lowther, J. H.

Cole, hon. A. H.

Perceval, Colonel

Cole, Viscount

Pollock, Sir F.

Elley, Sir J.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Goulburn, Sergeant

Wakley, T.

Hale, R. B.

Hamilton, G. A.

TELLERS.

Hawkes, T.

Shaw, right hon. F.

Hillsborough, Earl of

Richards, J.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Augerstein, J.

Jones, T.

Baring, F. T.

Labouchere, right hon. H.

Bernal, R.

Blake, M. J.

Lennox, Lord G.

Bowling, Dr.

Morpeth, Viscount

Brodie W. B.

Murray, rt. hon. J. A.

Buller, C.

O'Connell, M. J.

Callaghan, D.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Campbell, Sir J.

Palmerston, Viscount

Chalmers, P.

Parker, J.

Clay, W.

Pease, J.

Corry, right hon. H.

Rice, right hon. T. S.

Dennistoun, J.

Robinson, G. R.

Dillwyn, L. W.

Russell, Lord J.

Donkin, Sir R.

Sheil, R. L.

Duncombe, T.

Stanley, E. J.

Elphinstone, H.

Steuart, R.

Fitzroy, Lord C.

Thomson, rt. hn. C. P.

Forster, C. S.

Thompson, Colonel

Gordon, R.

Thornley, T.

Grey, Sir G.

Tulk, C. A.

Grote, G.

Vigors, N. A.

Hastie, A.

Wallace, R.

Hawes, B.

Warburton, H.

Hinde, J. H.

Williams, W.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.

Woulfe, Sergeant

Young, G. F,

Howard, P. H.

Hughes, W. H.

TELLERS.

Hume, J.

Lynch, A. H.

Hutt, W.

Talfourd, Sergeant.

Report brought up.
Mr. Richardssaid, if the object of the Bill was to put an end to the credit given to improvident young men, it would fail in that object totally. At such a late hour of the night, however, he should not trouble the House with further observation. He moved that the Bill be recommitted, upon which the House divided:—Ayes 16; Noes 56: Majority 40.
A second division took place on the question moved by Mr. Richards, that the House do adjourn;—For the adjournment 14; Against it 54: Majority 40.
The Bill to be read a third time.

MINUTES.
Bill. Received the Royal assent:—Registration and Marriages; Turnpike Acts Continuance; Recorder's Courts; Shire Halls; Pillory Punishment Abolition; Royal Military Canal; Public Works (Ireland).—Read a third time:—Dublin Police; Commissioners of Bankrupts (Ireland).—Read a second time:—Sugar Duties; Lands and Buildings Conveyance.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of HARDWICKE, from the Guardians of the Chesterton Union, Cambridge, complaining of the evils which arose from the occupiers of small cottages being assessed to the Poor 's-rates; and praying that the Landlords may be subject to this impost rather than the Tenants.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from a great number of places, against Church-rates.

PUBLIC MONUMENTS.
Lord Broughamheld in his hand a petition, most numerously and respectfully signed, in which the petitioners stated that the frequent contemplation of works of art, ready access to objects of literary interest, and of natural history, together with facilities for obtaining information on all matters connected with literature, science, and the fine arts, tended in the highest degree to elevate the character of a nation, and to improve the morals of all classes. The petitioners begged to call the attention of their Lordships to the fact, that the apprehensions entertained of injury to the contents of the National Gallery and the British Museum, from the recently increased facilities of access, had proved unfounded. The petitioners prayed that enlarged facilities should be granted to the public in visiting St. Paul's, Westminster Abbey, the Tower, and the Gallery in Trafalgar-square. The noble and learned Lord presented a petition from the Literary and Scientific Institution of Poplar to the same effect.
Lord Hathertoncould not allow the petition to pass without saying a few words upon the subject, which he was glad had at last been taken up. The people of this country had always, as regarded the public institutions and works of art, been in a disadvantageous position when compared with other countries. It was a disgrace to Government and Parliament, that such disadvantages should exist—tending, as the admission to all the institutions would do, to promote refinement. Had any bad results or any inconvenience whatever arisen from the admission of the public to the British Museum? When first it had been proposed to give the public free admission to the British Museum, it was feared that the collections contained therein might suffer injury. The same was said when it was proposed to admit

1711
the public to St. James's Park. But all these apprehensions had proved unfounded, and the people had conducted themselves in the most unexceptionable manner when admitted to those places. He recollected that in 1824, he had taken a part in erecting a monument to one of the most distinguished men this country had produced, the late Mr. Watt. The monument erected to his memory was executed in his best style by Sir Francis Chantry, and when it was proposed that it should be placed in Westminster Abbey, where it would be shut up from the view of the public, he recollected that some dissatisfaction was excited, and that the amount of the subscriptions was lessened by that circumstance. He thought that free admission should be given to St. Paul's, Westminster Abbey, a part of the Tower, the National Gallery, and other institutions. Such institutions should be shown for two days in the week gratuitously, and that on other days a charge might be made for admission.

COMMON LAW COURTS.
Lord Denman Lord Denman, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that it was to abolish certain offices in the common law courts. It was stated by Sir Robert Peel, when moving for the Commission out of which the Bill rose, that one great object of it should be to lay a ground for future legal forms, and for that purpose it would be necessary to abolish certain sinecure offices, for those offices would be found great obstacles to the projected reforms. The Commissioners, after some time spent in inquiry, sent a communication to the Treasury, stating that it would be advisable that nineteen offices should be abolished in the King's Bench, and twenty-one in the Common Pleas; that the expense of compensating the former would be about 31,000 l., and of the latter about 11,000 l. They also recommended a more simple mode of doing the business of the courts. The plan was brought under the consideration of the judges, and it was their opinion that there should be five masters for each of the courts, that all the others should be abolished, and the parties compensated on the principle of the former Bill. A bill embodying this plan had been introduced by his learned Friend (Mr. Sergeant Goulburn). It had been stated that the three chief judges of the courts would not consent to abolishing
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so much of their patronage, unless five masters were appointed to each court. That was a most unfounded statement, and he could assure their Lordships that there had not been, as far as he was concerned, (and he was sure he could say the same for his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer and for his right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas,) that there had been no consultations or bargainings on the subject. He was not even acquainted with the Bill until after it had been brought into the other House by his learned Friend Mr. Sergeant Goulburn, who was kind enough to submit it to his consideration. The object of the Bill was, as he had already stated, to abolish a great number of offices in the courts, and in their place to substitute five masters with 1,200 l. a-year in each court. Another object would be a saving of the money of the suitors, and a more uniform system of taxation in all the courts. The noble Lord concluded by mentioning the names of the gentlemen whom he bad appointed; and then moved that the bill be read a second time.
Lord Ellenborough: The grounds on which the noble and learned Lord had offered the Bill to their Lordships were, that it would be an improvement in the system of business in the courts, and would effect a considerable saving of money to the suitors; but he submitted that these objects could not be gained by the Bill as it now stood. The only real benefit which he saw likely to result from the Bill would be that of an uniformity in the system of the taxation of costs in all the courts. As to the abolition of offices that had been provided for by the bill of 1825, which declared that a certain number of sinecure offices should be abolished on the expiration of the lives of the present occupants. Again, under the Act of the 3rd Geo. 4th, the judges had the power of fixing the fines to be received by the officers of their respective courts, and according to that Act there was no reason whatever why they should not make such reductions as they considered necessary. It was, therefore, merely a pretence to bring forward such a magnificent preamble as was prefixed to this Bill, as the same objects might be effected by acts which were already in existence.
Lord Wynfordremarked, that many

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duties formerly discharged by officers appointed for that purpose had ceased. For instance, all real actions had been abolished, and the duties of the officers in the Court of Common Pleas who were engaged in attending to the proceedings connected therewith had ceased with them. The principal merit of this Bill appeared to consist in establishing one uniform system of taxation in all the three courts, and this was in itself a sufficient recommendation.
Lord Langdalesaid, that with reference to the objection which had been made elsewhere, that the Bill went to appoint five principal officers, whereas the Commissioners in their Report only recommended four, it seemed to him much more desirable that a court should have too many officers than too few, in order to avoid delay. The principal difficulty, which he found in the Bill, was in the clauses relating to compensation. He must say, that it appeared to him to be unjust to impose the expense of such compensation on the persons who were hereafter to become suitors. Compensation was to be made out of the fee fund, provided that fund was sufficient, thereby throwing the whole burthen and the whole expense on the suitors. In his opinion, the fees ought to be reduced to such a point as would be sufficient to pay the general expenses of the court, and the compensation should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund.
Lord Abingerwas favourable to this Bill, as it tended to assimilate the practice of the courts; but he did not approve of that part of it which disappropriated the officers from the courts to which they belonged. They would not know where to take their seats. The Master of the King's Bench would be dancing attendance in the Court of Exchequer, and the Master of the Exchequer would be sitting in the Common Pleas. In short there would be a perpetual maze of confusion. He objected to any attempt to make the officers common to all the courts, although he had no objection for officers of one court to revise the taxation of another.
Bill read a second time.