Sitting of 15 June 1837

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord W. BENTINCK, from Glasgow, against Prisons Scotland Bill; and for Steam Communication with India.—By Colonel VERNER, from Armagh, for an inquiry into the system of education pursued at Maynooth.—By Captain M. BERKLEY, from Gloucester, for amendment of the Libel Law.—By Sir R. DONKIN, from Berwick upon Tweed, against Boundaries of Boroughs Bill.—By Mr. HUME, from Glasgow, Dundee, and other places, for an extension of the Suffrage; and for the abolition of the property qualification for Members of Parliament; and from Marylebone, that they might not be obliged to pay their rates so close as hitherto.—By Sir SAMUEL WHATLEY, from St. Pancras, for the Ministerial plan for the abolition of Church-rates. By Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR, from places in Scotland, for a due Observance of the Lord's-Day.

ORANGE LODGE COMMITTEE.
Sir R. Batesonpresented a petition on the subject of the motion which he brought forward yesterday, that leave be given to the clerk of the Orange Lodge Committee (1835) to attend and give evidence in the Court of King's Bench, Ireland, in the case of Gore Jones v. Hunter and others. He begged hon. Members to recollect that the trial to which the petition referred was to come on in the Court of King's Bench in Dublin on Monday next, and that it could not be postponed. The defendant, he was informed, did not possess the power of putting off a trial
The Speakersaid he had very little more to observe with respect to the present motion, except to repeat what he had said before. It was now for the House to decide whether they would proceed further in this matter or not. It was for them, then, to decide whether or not they would afford increased facilities to the proceedings of Courts of Justice. In all cases where Members consulted him he uniformly gave his advice in favour of their not refusing their aid to the administration of the law. As Members of that House he thought they were bound to give every facility in their power. With respect to the motion then before them, he had only to recommend the House now to determine whether or not they would enforce the strict rule.
Viscount Morpethsaid, he had not the least objection to the motion, and thought that the sooner the House gave its permission the better.
Sir R. Batesonreplied, that after what had fallen from the noble Lord opposite, he should not say another word, further than to observe, that in bringing forward the proposition he had not been actuated by any party motives but by a sense of justice alone. The hon. Baronet made a motion in accordance with the prayer of the petition.
Mr. Humeopposed the motion, considering that no sufficient reason had been shown to induce the House to comply with the prayer of the petition. He thought that they ought not to encourage legal proceedings against persons who might give evidence to that House; the position in which such persons stood was most peculiar, and due regard ought to be had to the circumstances; he therefore objected to the motion.
Mr. O'Connelldiffered from his hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex for he thought that the House ought to give facilities to parties who desired to supply evidence on matters of fact, and he requested hon. Members to recollect that in this case the evidence was required for the defence. He was clear in the opinion that the House did possess the privilege of printing and publishing evidence given before it; but, notwithstanding that undoubted right, he was equally clear in the opinion that the present was not a case in which the required permission ought to be refused. Surely if any person had stated that which was false an opportunity should not he denied of contradicting that falsehood.
Mr. Roebuckobserved that the hon. and learned gentleman opposite had said that the libellous character depended on the occasion. He thought that nothing ought to be brought against a man which he said under the protection of the house. One man might say to another, "You said something against me." The other replies, "True, but it was said under compulsion." The House, which exercised the power of compulsion, ought to protect those who gave evidence before it on matters in which the nation had a great interest.
Motion agreed to.

ADMISSION OF LADIES.
Mr. Grantley Berkeleyconsidered it his duty to press this question not only on account of its merits, but also because resolutions in favour of it had been formerly come to and reported to that House, and he did not think these should be set aside by evasion and delay. He called on the House to assert its just prerogative, and carry these resolutions into effect; for if they did not they would afford a precedent for setting aside other resolutions of more grave consideration. The subject was so well understood that he need not enter further into it. One circumstance in this case certainly appeared rather odd, and that
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was, that numbers who formerly opposed it had now so widely changed, that while he would have been satisfied with a grant of 280 l., they were disposed to grant 400 l., for what purpose he could not see, unless to create enemies to the measure. He thought, however, no one would object to set apart a portion of the gallery for the ladies. As to the presence of ladies being objectionable, he would ask, when they had a bouquet of flowers in their chamber, did they not find the air sweeter? He would move an "address to his Majesty, praying that he will be graciously pleased to give directions for the immediate carrying into effect the recommendation of the Select Committee appointed in 1835, relating to the best means of setting apart a portion of the strangers' gallery for the admittance of ladies, both in the present and the new Houses of Parliament."
Captain Chetwyndthought the measure reflected great credit on the gallant mover, and he had no doubt it would be carried by a large majority. A Committee had been appointed who reported in favour of the ladies, and their recommendation when proposed to the House, was rejected by the smallest majority. On a later occasion the House agreed to the resolution proposed by his gallant Friend. He trusted that resolution would be adhered to by a reformed Parliament. It was urged against the measure, that ladies had no desire whatever to attend; but could that be said with truth, when, in the old House, they condescended to sit down in a place called the lantern—a treatment quite disgraceful on the part of the House; and if the ladies were ready to sacrifice their comfort to gratify their curiosity by viewing the proceedings of the House secretly, how much more gratifying to them would it be to be allowed to do so openly: another objection was, that the presence of the ladies would lengthen the debate, and induce Members to enlarge on subjects, and cause consirable delay. But he thought hon. Members would be less likely to talk nonsense in the presence of ladies, and secondly, he was convinced that those personal and severe animadversions which he regretted so frequently took place in that House would be considerably abated, if not altogether avoided. Their admission, therefore, would tend to facilitate rather than retard the business of the House,

1483
Ladies were admissible into the other House of Parliament, whose rights and privileges he should be always ready to advocate and support; but if their Lordships should lay claim to a greater degree of gallantry than that House, he should feel very jealous of them. With these views he begged leave to second the motion of his gallant Friend.
The House divided:—Ayes 92;—Noes 116: Majority 24.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lefroy, Anthony

Bagshaw, J.

Lennox, Lord George

Ball, N.

Lennox, Lord Arthur

Baring, F. T.

Maher, J.

Barnard, E. G.

Miller, W. H.

Barron, H. W.

Molesworth, Sir W.

Bateson, Sir R.

Musgrave, Sir R.

Berkeley, hon. F.

Nagle, Sir R.

Berkeley, hon. C.

O'Connell, D.

Bernal, R.

O'Connell, J.

Bewes, T.

O'Connell, M. J.

Bish, T.

O'Connor, Don

Blake, M. J.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Boldero, H. G.

Parrott, J.

Bowring, Dr.

Parry, Sir L. P. J.

Brady, D. C.

Pechell, Captain

Bridgman, H.

Polhill, Captain F.

Brodie, W. B.

Poulter, J. S.

Brotherton, J.

Power, J.

Buller, C.

Richards, R.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Robinson, G. R.

Chapman, L.

Roche, W.

Chichester, A.

Roebuck, J. A.

Clayton, Sir W.

Ruthven, E.

Cowper, hon. F.

Seale, Col.

Crawford, W. S.

Sheil, R. L.

Darlington, Earl of

Sibthorp, Colonel

Dick, Q.

Smith, B.

Divett, E.

Strickland, Sir Geo.

Dundas, J. D.

Talbot, J. H.

Eaton, R. J.

Thomas, Colonel

Etwall, Ralph

Thompson, Colonel

Fenton, J.

Tulk, C. A.

Fergusson, R. C.

Twiss, H.

Freshfield, J. W.

Vigors, N. A.

Gaskell, Daniel

Villiers, C. P.

Gaskell, James Milnes

Wakley, T.

Goring, H. D.

Ward, H. G.

Grattan, H.

Wason, R.

Grote, G.

Westenra, H. R.

Guest, J. J.

Whalley, Sir S.

Hawkes, T.

Whitmore, T. C.

Hay, Sir A. L.

Williams, W.

Hindley, C.

Williams, W. A.

Hogg, J. W.

Hume, J.

TELLERS.

Humphery, John

Berkeley, G.

Jervis, John

Chetwynd, Captain

List of the NOES.

Angerstein, J.

Bailey, J.

Arbuthnott, H.

Barclay, C.

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Bentinck, Lord W.

Mackenzie, T.

Blunt, Sir C.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Borthwick, Peter

Mactaggart, J.

Branston, T. W.

Mangles, J.

Brownrigg, S.

Manners, Lord C. S.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Marsland, T.

Burrell, Sir C.

Maule, hon. F.

Chaplin, Colonel

Maunsell, T. P.

Chapman, A.

Mordaunt, Sir J.

Chisholm, A. W.

Morpeth, Viscount

Clive, Edward Bolton

Mosley, Sir O.

Colborne, N. W. R.

Packe, C. W.

Cole, Viscount

Parker, M.

Collins, W.

Patten, J. W.

Conolly, E. M.

Pattison, J.

Corbett, T. G.

Philips, G. R.

Corry, rt. hon. H.

Ponsonby, J.

Crawley, S.

Pusey, P.

Crewe, Sir G.

Rooper, J. B.

Dillwyn, L. W.

Ross, Charles

Dugdale, W. S.

Rushout, G.

Dundas, hon. T.

Russell, C.

Ebrington, Viscount

Russell, Lord John

Ellice, E.

Ryle, J.

Elphinstone, H.

Sanford, E. A.

Fazakerly, J. N.

Scott, J. W.

Fergus, J.

Seymour, Lord

Ferguson, Sir R.

Sharpe, General

Ferguson, R.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Fitzroy, Lord C.

Sheppard, T.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Sinclair, Sir George

Folkes, Sir W.

Somerset, Lord G.

Forster, C. S.

Stanley, Lord

Fremantle, Sir T.

Stanley, W. O.

Goulburn, H.

Stuart, Lord J.

Goulburn, Sergeant

Stuart, V.

Graham, Sir J.

Strutt, E.

Grey, hon. Col.

Thomson, C. P.

Hamilton, Geo. A.

Tooke, W.

Harcourt, G. S.

Trevor, hon. A.

Heathcote, G. J.

Verney, Sir H.

Herries, hon. J.

Vivian, J. E.

Hillsborough, Earl of

Walker, Richard

Hodges, T. L.

Wallace, R.

Hope, J.

Warburton, H.

Houstoun, G.

Wemyss, Captain

Howard, P. H.

West, J. B.

James, W.

Weyland, Major

Johnstone, Sir J.

Wilbraham, E.

Irton, Samuel

Williams, R.

King, E. B.

Williams, Sir J.

Knight, H. G.

Wodehouse, E.

Labouchere, H.

Young, G. F.

Lemon, Sir C.

Young, J.

Longfield, R.

Lowther, J. H.

TELLERS.

Lushington, C.

Loch, J

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Stanley, E. J.

LETTER CARRIERS.
Captain Polhillrose to move, that the petition of the Two-penny post carriers, which he had presented on the 14th of April, be referred to a Select Committee. The nature of that petition was already known to hon. Members, whose support as well as that of the Go-

1485
vernment he hoped it would have. The petitioners were a body of men who underwent very great hardships, for which they were badly remunerated. During the severe weather of last winter, for instance, they had not only performed their own but a considerable portion of the general postman's duty, for which extra labour they had not received any compensation. Now, he was of opinion that they should be paid a higher salary than the general postmen, and that their numbers should be increased. They were obliged to work twelve hours a-day during six days of the week, for which they were paid but 20 s., without being able to enjoy their meals at home. Then with regard to superannuation, they had nothing to look to in their old age, after having been worn out in the public service, but the retiring pittance of 9s. a-week,—a sum he conceived to be quite insufficient. Under these circumstances he hoped the Government would take the subject into consideration.
Lord Seymouropposed the motion, and observed, that comparing the pay of the twopenny-post carriers with that of many other classes of persons in the same sphere of life, it was quite sufficient. They had this advantage besides, which many others did not enjoy—that during illness, they were paid 11 s. a-week, and for extra duty 4s.
Mr. F. Baringthought, that that House ought not to encourage applications for an increase of salary from parties who had their own office to go to in the first instance. If they found that their complaints were not attended to by the Postmaster-General, then they might be justified in appealing to that House. The salary paid to the twopenny letter-carriers in the year 1800 was much lower than it was at present. In 1812, it was raised to its present amount, a period, it should be recollected, at which the price of labour and provisions was much higher than it was now.
The House divided:—Ayes 19; Noes 35: Majority 16.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Lowther, J. H.

Bonham, R. F.

O'Connell, D.

Crawford, W. S.

Perceval, Col.

D'Eyncourt, C. T.

Scholefield, J.

Duncombe, T.

Sinclair, Sir G.

Forbes, William

Trevor, hon. A.

Gaskell, James Milnes

Vigors, N. A.

Hamilton, G. A.

Wakley, T,

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Wallace, R.

TELLERS.

West, J. B.

Polhill, Capt.

Williams, W.

Sibthorp, Col.

List of the NOES.

Baines, E.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Baring, F. T.

Parrott, J.

Barnard. E. G.

Philips, G. R.

Bewes, T.

Plumptre, John P.

Blake, M. J.

Rice, T. S.

Bowring, Dr.

Richards, R.

Brodie, W. B.

Roebuck, J. A.

Brotherton, J.

Russell, Lord J.

Callaghan, D.

Stanley, E. J.

Campbell, Sir J.

Stuart, V.

Dillwyn, L. W.

Thompson, Colonel

Fergusson, R. C.

Thornley, T.

Fitzroy, Lord C.

Verney, Sir H.

Hindley, C.

Vivian, J. E.

Howard, P. H.

Walker, R.

Humphery, J.

Warburton, H.

Knight, H. G.

TELLERS.

Mosley, Sir O.

Seymour, Lord

O'Brien, C.

Parker, J.

HANWELL LUNATIC ASYLUM.
Mr. Gaily Knightrose to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the Asylum for Lunatic Paupers at Han-well. If it could be shown that sufficient attention was not paid to the management of the lunatic paupers at that establishment, it was the duty of the House to institute an inquiry into the circumstances of the case. It appeared by the returns, that a much smaller number of the persons received at the Hanwell Asylum were cured than at any other similar establishment in the kingdom. Indeed, the difference was frightful, and demanded investigation. And even the returns of the numbers cured at Hanwell were fallacious. In the Report made by the medical superintendent to the magistrates, it was stated, that out of 1,290 patients admitted, 260 were discharged cured; hut it afterwards appeared, that of those 260, a number had been discharged as cured over and over again; and that, at the very moment when the Report was made, twenty-seven of them were, uncured, within the walls of the asylum. The deaths, also, were more numerous than in similar establishments; in fact, there were only half the number of cases, while there were twice the number of deaths at Hanwell than at any other establishment of a similar kind in the kingdom. The expenditure had also been lavish. From the beginning, the greatest improvidence had been manifested. The building had cost 224,000 l.; and great improvidence had been shown in the manner in which

1487
the funds had been raised for the erection and the subsequent increase of the institution. Under all the circumstances, he considered it to be exceedingly desirable that some Parliamentary inquiry should take place; and he moved, therefore, for the appointment of a Select Committee for that purpose.
Sir G. Stricklandseconded the motion. At the same time, he hoped that the result of the proposed inquiry might be more favourable than was to be inferred from the statements which had been made by the hon. Mover. One reason for his entertaining this expectation, was the very high character which he had heard in all quarters of Dr. Ellis. He was very unwilling to believe, unless inquiry should show it to be so, that that character was not well founded.
Mr. C. Barclaythought it highly desirable that an inquiry should be instituted not only into the asylum in question, but into that of all institutions of a similar description in the kingdom. Although quite unconnected with the county, he had paid a visit to the Hanwell Asylum, and he thought it would appear that, at least, some of the statements which had been made with respect to it were exaggerated. The comparatively small number of cases was mainly attributable to the circumstance that a great number of incurable cases were sent to the institution. Out of 600 cases he understood that 500 were incurable. It appeared to him that the establishment was well conducted. He had gone round the apartments; and the House would, perhaps, be surprised to hear, that out of 600 inmates 400 were employed in their various trades as shoemakers, carpenters, &c. He was sure, that a Committee would meet the wishes of the country at large, and of the county of Middlesex in particular.
Mr. Wakleyknew nothing personally of the Hanwell Asylum; but he had heard, from all quarters, that it was conducted in a more scientific manner than any other institution of a similar kind in the kingdom. The motion of the hon. Gentleman was expressed in a very loose manner. "A Select Committee to inquire into the asylum for lunatic paupers at Hanwell." Into what? Into the financial or the medical management of the asylum? If into the latter, why not extend the inquiry to other institutions of the same description, that the treatment of that which appeared to be the most successful might be
1488
generally adopted? It was too late to enter upon so extensive an inquiry in the present Session, as it was next to impossible that a satisfactory result could be obtained; but he wished the hon. Gentleman would withdraw his motion, and bring it forward in that enlarged shape at the commencement of the next Session.
Colonel Woodregretted the absence of the two Members for the county of Middlesex. He did not often agree with the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, but he agreed in every word that had fallen from him on the present occasion. If the inquiry were limited to the Hanwell institution, it would be filing a bill against the managers of it. The inquiry, if entered into at all, should be into the condition of all the institutions of a similar kind in the kingdom. The quarter from which the proposition proceeded was an odd one. It proceeded from the vestry of the parish of St. George, Hanover-square. Now, it was the treatment of the pauper lunatics belonging to that parish which had led to the building of the asylum at Hanwell. Two pauper lunatics who had been sent to a private asylum by that vestry, appeared before the gentlemen composing it, and proposed, if they were assured that they should not be sent back to the same asylum, to prove how they had been treated. He would not state the name of the asylum to which he alluded, but it appeared that these pauper lunatics had been chained down in it, almost in a state of nudity, from Saturday to Monday, with scarcely any attention during the whole of that period. On inquiry, it appeared that there was a ward in that asylum of which the physician knew nothing. So shocked was the vestry at the disclosure of these circumstances, that their first impression was to remove all the pauper lunatics of the parish from the asylum in question; but the other private asylums were so crowded that it was found impracticable to obtain the necessary accommodation. This led to an inquiry into the number of pauper lunatics in Middlesex, and he was sorry to say, it appeared, that there were 1,100. A bill for the erection of county asylums for pauper lunatics was introduced by the hon. Member for Cricklade; and the consequence was, that the magistrates of Middlesex built the asylum at Hanwell. In the first instance, it was calculated for only 300 patients; but it was afterwards enlarged

1489
to contain 600. In the county of Middlesex, however, there were at present between 900 and 1,000 pauper lunatics. He was quite sure, that if his hon. Friend had visited the Hanwell Asylum, and had compared the management of it with the management of other institutions of a similar kind, he would not have made his present motion. If the active and excellent magistrates, such as Colonel Clitherow and others, who exerted themselves greatly in superintending the Hanwell Asylum, were thus to be dragged before a Committee above stairs, and overhauled, it would deter every body from engaging in such useful labours. He believed that lunacy was a malady from which as many persons could be recovered as from any other malady; but then it could be only by proper treatment; and they could not experience so much attentive and careful treatment in any private asylum as at Hanwell. He hoped that the hon. and learned Gentleman would withdraw his motion, and remodel it for an early period of the next Session.
Lord John Russellsaid, he must confess that the reasons which had been alleged; in favour of the appointment of this Select Committee, when taken and compared with the answers which had been given with respect to this asylum, did not afford sufficient ground for this motion. The hon. Gentleman had not adduced any facts of gross mismanagement or of inferior treatment in the establishment at Hanwell. He thought it would not be desirable to limit the inquiry into this particular asylum. The law which had been passed allowing these lunatic asylums to be built in various parts of the country had hitherto worked most beneficially. The want of these houses originally had led to a state of things which he might term most disgraceful to the country. Now, the Act of George 4th, and the inquiries of the Commissioners of Poor-law might very possibly form the foundation of some further proceedings on this question; but he did not think, that under existing circumstances, there was anything to call on the House to appoint a Select Committee in this case; and, therefore, he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would not insist on this inquiry.
Motion negatived.

COMMISSIONS.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, the increase of Commissions appointed by his Majesty's Government had gone on to an alarming length, and the expense to the
1490
country had increased in a corresponding ratio; and yet, from what he learned, it was the noble Lord's intention to continue it. By a return which he had moved for in the year 1836, it appeared, that the expenses of these Commissions amounted to no less a sum than 553,556 l. 2s. This was the amount of the original return. Since then another return had been made by which it appeared that ten Commissions had been added to the former number; that upon the whole there were forty-nine Commissions at present in existence; and that altogether, there were 367 paid Commissioners, clerks, &c. The cost of one Commission which was still going on was very great. They had the Ecclesiastical commission, the Irish poor commission, the Poor-law Commission—the expense of these amounted to 38,46l l. The whole expense of these Commissions amounted to 561,333 l. is. 8d. The Record Commission, which had cost the country half a million, had left the Records in a worse state than they were before. It was the duty of the Government, who proposed (but who did not practise) economy, to make this inquiry. The hon. and gallant Member concluded by moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the present state of the various public commissions, with a view of considering how far it may be expedient and practicable to make an alteration in the number, and consequently diminution in the enormous expenses of the same.
Mr. Francis Baringopposed the motion. A Committee of Inquiry must be quite unnecessary, all the facts connected with the existing Commissions being already before the House. The hon. and gallant Member had not brought any direct charge against any particular Commission, but had confined himself to a general complaint against all, and had said a good deal about jobs, yet the only job to which he particularly referred was that of the Record Commission, which, if it were a job at all, was a job that had existed ever since the days of Mr. Pitt; the Record Commission having been appointed by that famous statesman.
The House divided.
Ayes 20; Noes 74; Majority 54.

List of the AYES.

Archdall, M.

Fielden, J.

Blackstone, W.

Gaskell, Jas. Milnes

Bonham, R. Francis

Halse, James

Chichester, A.

Harcourt, G. S.

Eaton, R. J.

Longfield, R.

1491

Mackinnon, W. A.

Trevor, hon. A.

Maunsell, T. P.

Walter, J.

Palmer, R.

West, J. B.

Perceval, Col.

Polhill, F.

TELLERS.

Sinclair, Sir G.

Sibthorp, Col.

Smyth, Sir H.

Forbes, C.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Murray, J. A.

Attwood, T.

Musgrave, Sir R.

Baines, E.

O'Brien, C.

Baring, F. T.

O'Brien, W. S.

Baring, W. B.

O'Connell, D.

Bernal, R.

O'Connell, M.

Bewes, T.

Parker, J.

Boldero, H. O.

Parnell, Sir H.

Bowring, Dr.

Parrot, J.

Bridgeman, H.

Parry, Sir L. P. J.

Brodie, W. B.

Pendarves, E. W.

Brotherton, J.

Pusey, P.

Buller, E.

Roche, W.

Chalmers, P.

Roebuck, J.

Chapman, L.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Collins, W.

Rundle, J.

Divett, E.

Russell, Lord J.

Fergus, J.

Sandon, Viscount

Folkes, Sir W.

Scholefield, J.

Gully, J.

Stanley, W, O.

Hastie, A.

Stuart, V.

Hawes, B.

Strickland, Sir G.

Hay, Sir A. L.

Thompson, Colonel

Howard, R.

Thornley, T.

Howard, P. H.

Verney, Sir H.

Humphery, J.

Villiers, C. P.

James, W.

Walker, R.

Ingham, R.

Wason, R.

King, E. B.

Whalley, Sir S.

Lennard, T. B.

Williams, W. A.

Lennox, Lord G.

Wood, Alderman

Lister, E. C.

Woulfe, Sergeant

Lushington, C.

Wrightson, W. B.

Lynch, A. H.

Wyse, T.

Macleod, R.

Young, G. F.

Mangles, J.

Melgund, Viscount

TELLERS.

Morpeth, Viscount

Maule, hon. F.

Mosley, Sir O.

Steuart, R.

PUBLIC REVENUES AND ACCOUNTS.
Dr. Bowring Dr. Bowring moved, in pursuance of notice the following resolution:—"That for the proper security of the public revenue, and for the purpose of giving to Parliament that authority and control which it ought to exercise, it is necessary that the gross receipts of all the departments of the revenue should be paid into the Exchequer, and that no department should be allowed to detain or appropriate any portion of the amount without a previous Parliamentary sanction." The hon. Member read a second resolution, founded on the one we have just reported, but it was not put from the chair.
Lord John Russellsaid, that the hon. Gentleman had a perfect right to bring forward his views upon this subject, the great importance of which could not be denied. But having done so, he (Lord John Russell) hoped that the hon. Gentleman would be satisfied, and not press the matter further, so as to lead to a general discussion and impede the other business before the House.
Dr. Bowringwas anxious to record his opinions upon the subject, which he conceived to be one of great public importance.
Question negatived.

FOURDRINIER'S PATENT.
Sir O Mosleyrose to move that the Select Committee to whom had been referred Messrs. Fourdrinier's petition on the subject of the renewal of his patent for the making of paper should be revived. He could have wished that it had been in his power to have entered upon the subject at large, because he was very confident that he could have made out the very strongest case in support of the claim for compensation on the part of the inventor of the machine by which the improved manufacture was effected. But in consequence of a private communication which he had from Mr. Speaker, it appeared that in that right hon. Gentleman's opinion the Committee had exceeded the power which was originally confided to them, inasmuch as they had used a certain word in their report which they were not empowered to use. He begged however to state in justice to the Committee, that had inadvertently fallen into the error pointed out by the Speaker. The reference made to the Committee was to consider how far the petitioner's case was borne out in evidence, the prayer of the petition being that the period of the patent should be extended to him. When, however, the question came under the consideration of the Committee, they found that the public had been so long in possession of this valuable invention, that it would be impracticable to accede to the prayer of the petitioners; and they, therefore, thought that it was only an act of justice towards them to recommend that some public compensation should be made to them for the benefit which the public had derived from their invention. In doing this, the Committee certainly exceeded the power which was implied in the question referred to them. Having made this short statement, he thought it would be better to confine him-

1493
self to the motion which he was about to make, which was, that the House should be pleased to revive that Committee, when the objectionable words would be struck out of the report, and the proper terms introduced, in order that the subject might be brought forward for debate in this House. The hon. Baronet moved accordingly.
Mr. Mackinnonas Chairman of the Committee in question had the honour of drawing up the report which was considered informal, and which was afterwards corrected by his hon. Friend who had just spoken. The particular word objected to, namely, "compensation," was inserted in the report by himself. It was impossible for him now to state to the House what were his reasons for making that report. He considered that it was advisable for him to abstain from doing so for the moment, and reserve any observations which he had to make till the Committee should have sat again, and altered the word "compensation" to that of "consideration." He could not, however, help thinking that the mere insertion of the word "compensation," instead of "consideration," in the report, hardly called for the revival of the Committee; but as it appeared to be the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman in the chair that such a word as "compensation" could not be tolerated, he was ready to submit and defer to that opinion. He wished it to be understood, however, that there was nothing in the whole of the report which was not unanimously acceded to by the Committee, and that at the time of preparing that report he was wholly unaware that it was informal to use the word "compensation" instead of "consideration."
The Speakerobserved that the present question was a very material one, so far as regarded the regularity of the proceedings of the House. A petition had been presented by Messrs. Fourdrinier for compensation. It was held by the House that no such petition could be received without the King's consent, and that consent having been refused, the petition was withdrawn. A second petition was then presented by the same parties, praying for an extension of the patent. A Committee was appointed for the purpose of considering the prayer of that petition. That Committee made a report, in which they had not confined themselves to the prayer of the petition, but had gone into the consideration of compensation to the petitioners. That was a report which the House could not receive. The course of proceeding then, was that which had been suggested by the hon.
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baronet; namely, that the Committee should be revived, in order that they might make a report in conformity with the petition referred to them.
Sir G. Clerkregretted that any difficulties in point of form should impede the bestowal of a public reward on persons who were so eminently entitled to it. Some few years ago Mr. Merton, the inventor of a machine for drawing up vessels on a slip, received a considerable sum from Government, in consequence of the favourable Report of a Committee, though this was made without the previous consent of the Crown, his case being, that up to within a year of the expiration of his patent his invention had not attracted public attention, and had consequently been of no benefit to him. The Committee reported against an extension of his patent, but in favour of a pecuniary testimony and this recommendation was acted upon.
Committee revived.

RATING OF TENEMENTS.
Sir H. Verney Sir H. Verney moved for leave to bring in a Bill for rating the owners and not the occupants of tenements under a certain annual value. Such a measure would be a great boon to the poor. The 59th George 3rd, enabled vestries to impose rates on small tenements, but the object of the present Bill was to enable the boards of guardians to rate tenements of from 6l. to 20 l. annual value to the owner, and not the occupier. The Bill did not interfere with the Parliamentary or Municipal franchise of the parties, but only with their parochial franchise.
Mr. Prymemust object to the Bill. He did not see how the measure could benefit the poor occupants, for if the owner had to pay the rates he would add them to the rent.
Sir G. Stricklandcould never approve of a principle which took away from these classes directly interested in the Poor-rates all share in their administration.
Mr. Sanfordsupported the Bill, though he had some doubts as to giving this new power to the boards of guardians. He would give his support to the introduction of the Bill, but its details would be matter for future consideration.
Mr. Wasonsaw no chance of passing the Bill this Session, so that it was a mere waste of time to proceed with it. Independently of this, however, he objected to the principle of the Bill, as they had already had experience of the evil working of a similar measure.
Mr. Bainessaw considerable difficulties in the way of the passing of this Bill. Suppose, for instance, a tenant refused to pay

1495
his rent, was the landlord, who was thus deprived of his rent, to be compelled to pay the rates of his tenant? He thought that this would be extremely unjust. He thought, at all events, that there was no use in occupying the attention of Parliament with this measure at this period of the Session.
Mr. Wakleythought, that his Majesty's Ministers ought not to enjoy a monopoly of the introduction of Bills. It was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to support any Bills that were calculated to benefit the people. He thought that this Bill would affect parochial franchise in the election of guardians of the poor to a great degree; and he therefore hoped that if the Bill were allowed to be introduced, the House would take care to protect the franchise of those tenants who must inevitably pay the rate, although the landlord might be nominally assessed for it.
Mr. Aglionbysaw no chance of getting the Bill passed this Session, and therefore, although he approved of its principle, he would recommend his hon. Friend to withdraw it.
Mr. R. Palmerbegged to add his recommendation to the many that had already been expressed that the hon. Baronet would allow himself to be persuaded to withdraw his Bill.
Sir H. Verneywas unwilling to withdraw his Bill without having it printed, and he should, therefore, persist in dividing the House upon his motion.
The House divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 45: Majority 28.

List of the AYES.

Agnew, Sir A.

Hobhouse, Sir J.

Angerstein, J.

Howick, Viscount

Balfour, T.

Ingham, R.

Bannerman, A.

Lawson, A.

Baring, F. T.

Lee, J. L.

Boldero, H. G.

Lefevre, C. S.

Bowes, J.

Lemon, Sir C.

Brotherton, J.

Lennox, Lord G.

Burrell, Sir C.

Lister, E. C.

Chalmers, P.

Lowther, J. H.

Cole, Viscount

Mackinnon, W.

Cripps, J.

Macleod, R.

Dundas, hon. T.

Maxwell, J.

Dundas, J.

Melgund, Viscount

Estcourt, T.

Miles, W.

Forster, C. S.

Milton, Viscount

Freshfield, J.

Morpeth, Viscount

Grey, hon. Colonel

Mosley, Sir O.

Handley, H.

Murray, J. A.

Hardinge, Sir H.

Neeld, J.

Hawes, B.

Nicholl, J.

Heneage, E.

Parker, J.

Bindley, C.

Parry, Sir L. P. J.

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Pendarves, E. W.

Tooke, W.

Plumptre, J. P.

Wakley, T.

Pusey, P.

Wallace, R.

Rice, T. S.

Ward, H. G.

Rickford, W.

West, J. B.

Rolfe, Sir R. M;

Williams, W.

Ross, C.

Wilson, H.

Rundle, J.

Winnington, H.

Russell, Lord C.

Worsley, Lord

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Woulfe, Sergeant

Sheppard, T.

Young, G. F.

Stanley, E. J.

Stanley, W. O.

TELLERS.

Strutt, E.

Verney, Sir H,

Thompson, Alderman

Sanford, E. A.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

James, W.

Ainsworth, P.

King, E. B.

Baines, E.

Mackenzie, T.

Bewes, T.

Maunsell, T. P.

Blackburne, I.

Palmer, R.

Blake, M. J.

Palmer, G.

Borthwick, P.

Patten, J. W.

Brocklehurst, J.

Perceval, Colonel

Brodie, W. B.

Ponsonby, J.

Clerk, Sir. G.

Russell, C.

Collins, W.

Scarlett, hon. R.

East, J. B.

Talfourd, Sergeant

Estcourt, T.

Thomas, Colonel

Follett, Sir W.

Thompson, Colonel

Forbes, W.

Thornley, T.

Gaskell, D.

Trelawny, Sir W.

Goulburn, H.

Trevor, hon. A.

Goulburn, Sergeant

Wason, R.

Gully, J.

Wilbraham, B.

Hawkes, T.

Williams, W. A.

Hector, C. J.

Wood, Colonel

Hogg, J. W.

TELLERS.

Howard, R.

Pryme

Howard, P. H.

Strickland, Sir G.

FOREIGN OFFICERS.
Viscount Howick Viscount Howick moved that the House go into Committee on the Foreign Officers' Bill.
Sir Henry Hardingehad no intention to oppose the Bill, but he had hoped that the noble Lord would have allowed him to introduce a clause, providing for the restoration of their pensions to certain old soldiers, who had long and faithfully served their country, in a Bill which was introduced with the view of doing an act of justice to foreign officers who had been employed in his Majesty's service. It would be recollected that some considerable time ago a plan had been adopted by the Government of the day, by which a number of old soldiers had been induced to dispose of their pensions for a commuted allowance from the War-office. The object of the plan was to allow those veterans an opportunity of settling advantageously in the colonies, and for that purpose part of the commuted allowance was paid in

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this country, and the other portion when they arrived in the country where they were to settle. As regarded some of those old soldiers, the plan might have been a good one, but it had. been carried too far, and many had been induced to accept the commutation, and to proceed to the colonies, who were by no means qualified to become settlers with advantage to themselves. As the consequence, they were obliged to return to this country, and having now nothing to depend on, were in a state of destitution. It was to restore their pensions to those old soldiers that he wished to insert a clause in the present Bill, and it was provided in the clause that they should only be restored in such instances as would not entail upon the public any greater expense than if such pensions bad not been purchased. Many of those individuals had accepted that portion of the commutation payable in this country, and had skulked behind the others, and never left the country at all. To those persons the Government had found it necessary to restore their pensions; and surely if they extended such a favour to those who had not fulfilled the contract into which they had entered, they were much more bound to restore their pensions to those who had fulfilled their agreement in every part, and who had only returned to this country when they found it impossible to procure the means of subsistence in the colonies. The measure, to the extent to which it had been carried, was, in his estimation, improvident, imprudent, and unjust; for those old soldiers had gone through the brunt of the war; they had served their country well, and had been deluded—he would not say defrauded—into the resignation of their pensions by prospects which had proved delusive, and by a scheme which had reduced them to a state of the most complete destitution in their old age. The condition of those old veterans in Ireland and in Scotland particularly called loudly for relief, and he had hoped the noble Lord would have allowed him by an instruction to the Committee on the present Bill to provide for the restoration of their pensions once more. His duty to the army imperatively called on him to take the steps which he had done, and he implored the noble Lord, if it was contrary to the rules of the House to insert such a clause as he had proposed, to take an early opportunity of introducing a Bill restoring those old soldiers to the pensions out of which they had been de-
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luded. He felt so strongly on the subject, he considered the restoration of those pensions so loudly demanded by justice, that, should the noble Lord refuse to acquiesce in his suggestion, he should consider it his duty to bring forward a specific measure on the subject himself.
Viscount Horwicksaid, that he had found by an application to the Speaker that it would have been quite contrary to the usual practice of Parliament to insert a clause in a Bill quite foreign to the object of the Bill itself. For that reason he had resisted the insertion of the clause, but he thought also that the measure for the commutation of pensions was not of so harsh a nature as it had been represented. He admitted due caution had not been used, and that the commutation had gone further than was expedient, but the Government had done all they could to prevent improper persons from going out as settlers to the colonies, and the Government had, in fact, been imposed upon by the partial and improper representations of those persons who wished to commute their pensions. If a Bill were passed embodying the views of the right hon. Gentleman, he feared that it would only operate as an inducement to those who were settled in the colonies and actively employed in providing for themselves to return home, and once more throw themselves upon the pension list, even though their conduct since they had commuted their pensions would not justify the governors of Chelsea Hospital in restoring them, had they liberty so to act. He could not pledge himself to bring in a Bill providing for the restoration of those pensions.
The House in Committee. The clauses were agreed to.
House resumed.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of HARDWICKE, and other noble LORDS, from various places, against the abolition of Church-rates.—By Lord RAYLEIGH, from Chelmsford, that their Lordships would not sanction any measure to alienate any portion of the ancient revenues of the Church, from the legitimate objects for which those revenues were originally granted.—By Lord SEGRAVE, from the Board of Guardians of an Union in Gloucestershire, for landlords instead of tenants to be rated to the poor.

POST-OFFICE BILLS.
The Earl of Lichfieldin moving the second reading of the Post-office Acts Repeal Bill, stated, that this Bill, the Postage Duties Bill, the Franking Bill, the Post-office Management Bill, and the Post-office Offences Bill, had one great object in view—that of consolidating and improving the laws

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relating to the Post-office. Not less than 150 acts would be consolidated by the adoption of these measures.
Lord Ellenboroughexpressed an anxious wish that something had been done to expedite the communication between India and England by the route of the Red Sea. At present, the expense of the transmission of letters from England by the way of Egypt to India was so high, and by way of the Cape of Good Hope so moderate, that individuals would, of course, prefer the latter route, which operated as a discouragement to the establishment of a more quick communication by the route of Egypt and the Red Sea. When he was at the India Board, he had endeavoured to make an arrangement for a more speedy communication with India by steam, and at a lower rate of charge; but he did not know whether any steps had since been taken to carry the plan into effect.
The Duke of Richmondregretted that the object of these Bills was that merely of consolidation. It appeared that no reduction was proposed in the rates of postage, with the exception of that which had reference to newspapers transmitted through cross-roads in Ireland. In his opinion, the proper principle on which postage should be charged was, to take the direct distance of the towns to which letters might be addressed, and not to charge because a circuitous route was taken. Under the existing system great hardship was inflicted on the lessees of turnpike-roads, because the mail-coaches were allowed to go totally free from tolls through this country. It was now contemplated to despatch the mails by stagecoaches, also free of toll, which would be extremely unjust towards the lessees of turnpike roads, and those who had lent their money on such security. The halfpenny chargeable on newspapers sent to Scotland was, it appeared, to be remitted with respect to Edinburgh. Now, in his opinion, it ought to be removed with reference to the whole of Scotland. He thought that it would be advisable to refer these Bills for consideration to a Select Committee.
The Earl of Lichfieldsaid, that these were really nothing more than consolidation Bills, which left the provisions of the law, in almost all instances, the same as they were at present.
Lord Ashburtonthought, that the con-
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solidation of those Bills would afford facilities for making future changes. He was favourable to a considerable reduction of the postage charges: and he was of opinion that such a reduction as had been the case in other departments would tend ultimately to increase, instead of diminishing, the revenue.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, if these Bills were referred to a Select Committee, and altered there, it would be felt as an interference with the privileges of the House of Commons; and. if the Bills were, in consequence, reconstructed by the other House, it would be very difficult to get them through Parliament at so advanced a period of the Session. It was in the contemplation of the Post-office to charge according to the direct distance from the office, and not, as now, with reference to the actual route.
The Earl of Lichfieldsaid, it appeared from the official returns that, under the system adopted in the Post-office Department, the revenue had been considerably increased. That revenue was now produced by 170,000,000 of letters that were annually circulated in England; and if the reduction of duty for which some individuals called were acceded to, it would require the enormous number of 416,000,000 of letters annually to produce the same amount of revenue. With respect to the plan set forth by Mr. Hill, of all the wild and visionary schemes which he had ever heard or read of, it was the most extraordinary. One part of his plan was, that letters sent through the Post-office should be confined to a primary distribution; and if the expense of the final distribution could not be met in any other way, it was to be defrayed but of a parochial rate. Now, he believed that, at the present moment particularly, very few people would be found to advocate the increase of parochial rates. If the Legislature chose that letters should be conveyed for nothing, they might adopt that course. But they had better consider whether the finances of the country would admit of such a change. They ought also to inquire whether in all countries the conveyance of letters had not constantly been viewed as a fair and legitimate source of revenue. He trusted that, under all the circumstances, the progress of these Bills would not be opposed.
Lord Ashburtonwas still of opinion

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that the rates of postage ought to be diminished. The noble Earl, like all other Postmasters-General, seemed to look more to the increase of the revenue than to the general convenience of the public.
Bills read a second time.

WAR IN SPAIN.
The Marquess of Londonderryfelt, that he was scarcely justified in renewing the discussion on the subject of the war in Spain after the able and enlightened debate which had taken place upon it recently, not only in their Lordships' House but also in the other House of Parliament. The question had been so fairly stated, and had been so clearly developed by a noble Duke, who had hitherto preserved a strict silence upon it, that he was not vain enough to hope to throw any fresh light upon it. The same views had also been ably advocated by a noble Earl who followed on the same side. In another place the discussion had taken so ample a view of the military state of the question, that it would be idle in him to add one word upon it. He had not been present at either of those discussions; but he had been most anxious to state how grateful he felt to the noble Duke for the allusions which he had made to his humble exertions, and for the lucid manner in which that noble Duke had brought our unhappy course in Spain under the consideration of their Lordships. The arguments which the noble Duke had then urged with so much force and clearness had been met by the noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty by a singular declaration, to which he should feel it to be his duty to allude more particularly hereafter. On the important question of the mode in which the war in Spain was conducted by his Majesty's Government, he thought the majority of that House—nay, he might even say the majority of the people of England, and the majority of the people of Europe, poignantly lamented that the warfare in that country should be carried on by a system on our part which was not creditable to the British arms, and which every British soldier must deeply lament. It was with a view to discover whether there were still any efforts made on the part of the British Government to raise new levies for the Queen of Spain, and to furnish them with arms, ammunition, and warlike stores—which we had already furnished to the amount of half a million—
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that he rose to address their Lordships for a few minutes. Looking to the economy of the thing, he would ask, whether there was any chance of the amount of these supplies being repaid to the country, in case Don Carlos should prove successful, as it was probable that he would? Was the same system, he would ask, to be carried on for the future as had been carried on for some years past? There was also another question equally important to all British subjects, which he should take the liberty of asking on the present occasion. He wished to know whether the noble Viscount had made any efforts or whether he had continued the efforts of the preceding Administration, to arrest on the part of the Spanish Government the sanguinary proceedings, the wanton bloodshed, the extraordinary atrocities with which the war was carried on in Spain? Had the noble Viscount come to a determination to send a British officer or a British diplomatic agent to the Court of Madrid to ascertain whether the arrangements which he had formerly explained to the House were actually carried into effect in the Basque provinces with respect to the Elliott convention? Had the noble Viscount taken measures to extend the provisions of that convention to all the other provinces of Spain? He should be happy to hear that the noble Viscount had done so. If he had, the Durango decree would have fallen to the ground at once a dead letter; and had that been the case, we should not have heard of those melancholy instances of bloodshed among men who wore the Spanish cockade, and were yet clothed in English cloth and bore English muskets. He feared that it was not with the noble Viscount as it was with a prudent statesman or with a prudent general, who having made a mistaken march, or who having taken up a wrong position, made a retrogressive motion and placed himself where he could most easily recover the ground which he had lost. It was reserved for the noble Viscount and the Members of his Administration to pursue an obstinate, pertinacious and bigotted line at all hazards in employing the British troops engaged in the war in Spain, so that no feelings out of doors, no representations from our ally the King of the French, no consideration in the world, could arrest the noble Viscount in his determination to carry on this war in the same reckless spirit in which he had

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embarked in it. The noble Viscount would perhaps recollent that at the close of last Session of Parliament he had ventured to indulge in various predictions. Had the noble Viscount's predictions been justified by the result, or any thing like it? Let the House look at the facts. He had put upon paper a comparative statement of the forces commanded by, and opposed to Don Carlos at the close of the last Session, and at the present moment. If the noble Viscount could contradict that statement, let him do so; he believed it to be true; and if it were true, what chance had the noble Viscount of defeating Don Carlos in his present attempt to gain possession of his throne? The noble Viscount's plan of warfare would not only plunge Spain into a continuation of all those scenes of horror and bloodshed which were so disgraceful to the character of the Spanish soldier, but would also involve England in an enormous expense, which would never be paid. The comparative statement to which he had alluded was as follows:—"At the end of 1835 the Carlist forces were, infantry in Navarre, 11,300; Alava, 5,500; Guipuscoa, 5,050; Biscay, 6,750; and Castillians, operating in the above provinces, 5,350. Also cavalry, 1,300; and artillery, 350. Total 35,600 regulars, besides 10,000 armed peasants." That statement he had made before in his place in Parliament, and that statement had been contradicted by the noble Viscount. But to proceed—"In Catalonia there were then in the various districts, but badly armed, 22,000; in Arragon, under Cabrera, 5,000; and under Quiles, 4,000; in Valencia, La Mancha, Toledo, in flying columns, 6,500; in Galicia, under Lopez, 3,000; in Castile, Rioja, Estremadura, Andalusia, and various parts of the kingdom, in small bands, 6,000. Total 56,500. At which period the Christinos had, including militia, natives, amounting to 275,000 men, contending against the Carlists, besides three foreign Legions viz. British 10,000; French, 8,000; and Portuguese, 5,000; independent of naval forces." That was the comparative statement of the forces of the Carlists and of the Christinos at that period. The bulk of the Carlist forces were in the Basque provinces, with the British Legion and the British fleet on their flanks. They had nevertheless maintained the war under
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all the difficulties in which they were placed, and had maintained it with success up to the present moment. At present, in 1837, the Carlist forces might be stated thus:—

"In the Basque provinces and Navarre, for their defence, and including armed peasants

35,000

"Under the Infante, gone to Catalonia

12,000

"In Catalonia, well armed, under carious leaders, and organised twenty-three battalions, say

20,000

"In Valencia, under Cabrera, Serrador, and other leaders

16,000

"In Lower Arragon, now chiefly with the Infante's expedition

10,000

"In various parts of the kingdom, in small bands

6,000

"Total

99,000

This statement gave the amount of the regular troops of Don Carlos. He had left a part of these troops in the Basque provinces, and with the remainder he had marched through various provinces of Spain, until he had reached Catalonia, where he had a population of 1,400,000 souls to fall back on. The Carlists had also bands of irregular troops in Lower Arragon, in Estremadura, in Andalusia, and elsewhere; and when all Spain was rising, or on the point of rising, in support of Don Carlos, was it wise in his Majesty's Government to allow a British force to be employed against him in a service which could only lead to the sacrifice of their own lives without any chance of success to the cause in which they were enlisted? He trusted that the noble Viscount would recollect his former predictions. He had taken the trouble of looking back to what the noble Viscount had then said. On the last occasion on which the force of the Carlists had been mentioned, the noble Viscount said, "I have every hope that a speedy and happy termination will be put to the Spanish contest, through the means now in operation. There is a prospect of the result from the conduct pursued by the present government of Spain. There is no one, my Lords, so incurable as a prophet; the spirit of prediction is a most obstinate disease. I do not know whether the noble Marquess has any adequate reason for declaring our prediction will be falsified, but I have every reason to believe what I have said will turn out. to be the fact?" He quoted those words,

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as a slight reminiscence of the debate which took place on the 12th of February, 1836, but at the close of the debate the noble Earl now at the head of the Admiralty said, "I shall only add, that I speak from information which I have derived from authorities in Spain, and probably from less public sources than those on which the noble Marquess relies. From these I arrive at the conclusion, that General Evans is likely to pursue that successful course which he has hitherto done." All that he should now say in reply to these predictions was, that we were now carrying on the war in Spain in a much more unfortunate plight than that in which we were during the last Session. These were the grounds on which he thought that their Lordships had a right to be informed, first—"Whether any instructions or authority had been sent to Colonel Wylde, British Commissioner in the North of Spain, to aid the formation of any new British Auxiliary Legion, or to lend his exertions to induce British soldiers to enter the service of the Queen of Spain?" And secondly—"Whether any further communications had been received from the Spanish Government relating to their efforts to arrest the sanguinary system of the warfare." If any such communications had been sent in the one case or received in the other, he should certainly move, that they be laid on the table on a future day. If no such instructions or authority had been sent to Colonel Wylde, he should be satisfied at hearing that fact announced; but he should deeply regret it, if he should be informed by his Majesty's Government that no efforts had been made by them to bring this war into a more civilised and humane form. He also desired to be informed "whether the French government had not distinctly informed his Majesty's Ministers that they intended strictly to limit their interference to the stipulations of the Quadruple Treaty;" and whether they had not given his Majesty's Ministers that information since the close of the last Session? He particularly wished to call the attention of the noble Viscount to what our excellent ally the King of the French had said on this subject in his speech on the opening of the two Chambers, and to the words which he had uttered respecting those troops who marched under other colours than the glorious colours of their own nation. Did not the noble. Viscount,
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he would ask, feel that those words were a taunt directed against the British marines now serving in Spain? When was there to be an end put to the system of allowing men wearing English uniforms to fight under the Spanish cockade? On these various points he now demanded some information. He had no wish whatever to embarrass his Majesty's Ministers; but he wished that all England, and indeed that all Europe, should know whether it was their intention to pursue any longer the system which they had been pursuing during the last three years under a most mistaken policy.
Viscount Melbournewas sure that the House would excuse him, and so would the noble Marquess if he confined himself to the mere answering of the questions that had been put, and not go very largely into his general argument. The noble Marquess had very justly observed, that the whole policy of the question had been discussed very much at length already in that House; and also, that it had been very fully and amply, and he begged leave to remind their Lordships, not only discussed by themselves, but also in the other House of Parliament. With respect to what would be the policy pursued, the renewing the Order in Council, he apprehended was a sufficient answer to that question. At the same time he begged leave to say, that the renewal of the Order in Council, whatever might be thought by all who were originally opposed to it, was not precisely the same thing to be considered as if it were now for the first time made. Their Lordships were aware, that it was not very easy to depart from a line of policy once adopted; and that such a course would be attended with very great inconveniences. Having induced men to enter into a particular service, by exempting them from the penalties of an Act of Parliament, when those persons felt themselves bound to the same service by feeling, by honour, or by interest, to turn round upon them, by renewing the same severe penalties from which they had been exempted, and thus to compel them to withdraw from that service, could hardly be justifiable, whatever might be the consequences of continuing the present policy. He would add, too, it would hardly be justifiable to the Spanish government, to give to all Europe an example of such marked abandonment of its cause at such a moment; and he felt, also, that such a

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course could not be consistent either with the engagements entered into or with the honour of his Majesty's Government, or the good faith of this country. He thought the original issuing of the Order in Council might have well been objected to: but still he thought it by no means the same question, the renewing the Order in Council; and, in fact, it would have been liable to great objection not to have pursued that course. If it had not been done, it would have been a blow inflicted upon the Spanish cause, and it would be a desertion and abandonment of the engagement into which the Government had entered. If the noble Lord had informed him of any particular despatch with respect to which, or for which, he intended to call, then he should have made it undoubtedly his business to inform himself more distinctly as to its existence. The noble Lord had said, that he probably would not answer him upon a particular point upon which he made inquiry—whether there was or not a distinct intimation from the King of the French, of his confining himself to the Quadruple Treaty. Not only now, but at all other times, they never had any other intimation from the King of the French, than that it was strictly and truly his intention to execute that treaty, and to confine himself to the letter of that treaty; and he begged also explicitly to tell the noble Lord, that all they ever required from the government of the King of the French was, that it would execute that treaty. But there was one matter upon which he could give to the noble Lord the most satisfactory and explicit answer, and that was, that the Government of the King of the French had most distinctly disavowed the interpretation of the terms and the expressions put into the speech of the King of the French—it was not their intention, and, furthermore, it did not enter into their imagination, to cast any imputation, to utter any reproach, or to throw any blame on the government of England, by the expressions which they had advised the King to use, and to employ upon that occasion. The noble Lord had said, that there was a pertinacity in adhering to the course they were pursuing, that there was obstinacy in it, and that there was a violent and bigoted attachment to the system that they had adopted, while he must say, notwithstanding the difficulties that were to be encountered, and the dangers
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to which they might be exposed, what they adhered to with tenacity, and what they always had adhered to, and what he hoped they would adhere to, was the execution and fulfilment of the treaties extered into by this country. That was the obstinacy—that was the pertinacity—displayed upon this occasion, and no other. The noble Lord said, that he had denied the accuracy of his statement upon a former occasion. He did not recollect the particular statement to which the noble Lord referred, but all he did upon a former occasion was, to hope that the result would be different from that which the noble Lord declared it would be; and he took the liberty, in the same way, in differing with the noble Lord in his expectations of the result of the war upon the present occasion, as he had upon a former. With respect to the specific question which had been moved by the noble Lord, he would say, that it was very well known that the Order in Council suspended the operation of the Foreign Enlistment Act, and permitted persons to engage during the period of another year. He begged to say, that Colonel Wylde had no specific instructions as to the reconstruction of the Legion. He was not aware whether there were any specific dispatches relating to that subject on which their Lordships were all so deeply interested, namely, the attempts which had been made to mitigate the sanguinary character of the war in Spain; but he could confidently say, that every possible exertion had been used by the persons in the employment of the British Government, and more particularly by his Majesty's Minister at Madrid, to induce a more humane mode of carrying on the war. He thought, however, that the noble Lord took much too partial a view of one side, when he supposed that the Durango decree would have been abandoned, as a matter of course, if the forbearance he had spoken of had been practiced by the other side. He begged to say, that there never had been the slightest appearance of any disposition on the part of Don Carlos, to withdraw that decree, or to relax its severity; on the contrary, it was acted upon in the most sanguinary and merciless spirit, whenever the opportunity presented itself. He would further remark, that there was a great difference between the barbarities committed under the Durango decree, and any barbarities which might have dis-

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graced the Queen's troops, because they were contrary to the wish of the Government. They were against its will and orders, and were the result of the violence and ferocity of the generals and troops themselves; but the barbarities under the decree were the act of the Government—they were the act of that man who called himself King of Spain. He could pledge himself, that every possible effort had been made to produce that result so strongly felt by their Lordships to be in the highest degree desirable.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that when he saw his Majesty's Government lending their sanction to his Majesty's subjects engaging in the service of a foreign power, he concluded that their services would be given under certain engagements on the part of that power, and certain terms in favour of the individuals, whether officers or private soldiers, who rendered their services. Now, he wished to ask the noble Viscount, as a Minister of the Crown, whether it was desirable that an agent of his Majesty's Government acting with the army on the Spanish frontier should have gone and interfered in those arrangements and engagements, and should, so far as his own conduct went, for he would not go further than that, have given those individuals cause to believe that those arrangements were sanctioned and guaranteed by his Majesty's Government. He thought that if this officer had taken upon himself to interfere in an arrangement of this description, without the authority of his Majesty's Government, he had done what he ought not to have done. He was an officer employed at the head-quarters of one of the Spanish armies by his Majesty's Government for the purpose of giving them intelligence of the operations that were expected to take place in the course of the war. It was quite right that he should give that intelligence, and that he should be on the best terms with all those who were engaged in those operations, but an interference on his part with his Majesty's subjects, either in assisting to form a fresh Legion, or in any other manner which would induce them to enter into a foreign service, exposed the Government of this country to be sued and called upon to make good the engagements which its agent had been instrumental in forming. He really hoped that the noble Lord was mistaken in supposing that Colonel Wylde had taken any part in the formation of a fresh Legion,
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but he must say, that if he had taken that course he had done what he ought not have done.
The Earl of Carnarvonassured their Lordships that it was with sincere pleasure that he heard the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government declare that he would use his strenuous endeavours to humanize that most sanguinary warfare which had so long disgraced Spain and civilized Europe, and which he wished to God had never sullied the page of its history. He sincerely trusted, from what had fallen from the noble Viscount, that there was some kind of lurking repentance in the mind of his Majesty's Ministers. Their conduct with regard to the Basques had given him as much pain as if he had experienced a personal misfortune. The noble Lord had said, that the Government would not be consistent with respect to its engagements with Spain if the order in council was not renewed. Now, when he looked at the history of the contest in Spain for the last year, he really could not see any thing which would entitle that country to the particular attention of his Majesty's Ministers. The noble Viscount had also said, that the Spanish generals and soldiers had persevered in the execution of their acts of cruelty in defiance of the Spanish government. Now, he believed, that in many instances the instructions given by the Spanish government were exceeded by the generals and troops who professed to yield obedience to its orders; but he also believed, and his information was derived from sources that he could not doubt, that those instructions were to carry terror into the revolted provinces by the most unsparing execution of the last penalties of the law. Granting, however, that the noble Viscount was right, and that the Spanish government wholly disapproved of the severities practised by its generals, were we at an expense of so much blood and treasure as had been lavished in the prolongation of this contest, to continue our assistance to a government which was so utterly powerless as that of Spain had proved itself to be? He could not but consider as worthy of imitation the policy pointed out by the King of the French in his speech at the opening of the present session of the French Chambers, when he said that France would only arm when French interests were concerned, and that her sons should march to battle only under the glorious banners of their native

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country. He perfectly agreed with his noble Friend who spoke so energetically at the commencement of this discussion, in the abhorrence which he felt at this mode of warfare, and the manner in which the English name had been mixed up in this contest. He lamented that so many brave Spaniards had died on British bayonets at Irun, not exactly in cold blood, but still after the town had surrendered. After all that had occurred he must say, that he thought that the order in council ought not to have been renewed. We ought to have known what arrangements had been made in favour of the Legion, when we knew all that it had suffered during its former period of service. Could they, knowing what had passed, believe that the Legion would have regular pay, and not only regular pay, but also that fair treatment and usage which a force encouraged to enlist by the Government of this country had a right to expect, and which the British public had a right to demand for them? When he looked at the state of the Legion for the last two years, he saw that the officers were without authority, and the men without discipline, imbibing in many instances the ferocious habits of those with whom they were combined. Without meaning any disparagement to the officers, he could not help saying, that in his opinion that force ought not to be permitted to compromise the military character of England. He did not believe that we were authorised to send out persons to fight the battles of a foreign power when we had no just cause for doing so. The honour of the country was deeply implicated in what had occurred recently in Spain. No distinction was drawn by the natives of that country between a regular British force and the Legion; and all that was known in Spain generally was, that a body of Englishmen in arms had experienced some of the greatest reverses in that country which it had been our fate to sustain for a long period of time. The national interests had in consequence suffered, and our military glory had been obscured; operations had been undertaken, the extreme injustice of which it was impossible to overrate, and although the success of them might have dazzled opinion, yet that would have been a poor compensation for a great departure from sound policy. The point, however, which he considered most objectionable in the conduct of His Majesty's Government was,
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that they had no settled views of policy on this subject, but that they had been wafted from one indiscretion to another by the changing circumstances of the war. What he complained of, and what the Basques had a right to complain of, was this—that they had never been able to know what were the real intentions of His Majesty's Ministers. In the beginning of the war they disclaimed all intention of dictating as to the mode in which the war was to be carried on. Our assistance to Spain was limited by the treaty, and by the additional articles, to a naval co-operation, which could only be afforded by a blockade of the coast. This treaty was followed by the formation of the Legion, and that step was supported by sending out the marines to co-operate with the forces of the Queen of Spain, in opposition to the population of the Basque provinces, whose heroism and devotion had no parallel in history. It appeared to him that there would not be found any provision in the treaty which justified the kind of military co-operation which under a forced interpretation had been brought to bear on this unfortunate people. He lamented most deeply that any inconsistency should be found in the language employed when debating these subjects, by any members of His Majesty's Government. In the collision of party these inconsistencies of language might be looked upon as mere breath, but they were often replete with misery and ruin to others. If the report of the speech attributed to M. Molé in the French Chambers was correct, in 1835 France did apply to the Court of St. James's to know whether the English Government was willing to co-operate with her in a military intervention in Spain. It was stated that England refused, alleging that it was not a casus fœderis. Subsequently, however, England was found quite ready to co-operate, and had actually interfered. Now, was it fair, was it just, to trifle in this manner with the feelings of men who believed that they had taken up arms in the defence of their lawful Sovereign? How many individuals who had staked their fortunes, and risked their families on the issue of this civil war, would have paused before they rushed on the perils of that encounter, if they had known what were the intentions of the British Government. If His Majesty's Ministers were determined upon interfering they should have said to the Basques,

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"Although you are exhausting your families which they were, and sending out child after child to die in the defence of his country, we must entreat you to cease from this hopeless and useless contest, because, although you are shedding your blood (and blood had been poured out like water), yet in, the fulness of time, when we think it most fitting, we shall interfere to establish such a state of things as without our assistance the Spanish Government can never hope to establish, and which must consign you, if you persevere, if not to the scaffold, at least to exile, accompanied by the total loss of the property which you may possess." He must stop here; there were some other points to which he wished to have called their Lordships' attention, but he should not be able. [The noble Lord was exhausted.] He must, however, advert, though it was a very delicate subject, to the disposition of the continental powers towards England with reference to the Spanish contest. He did not wish to say anything that could be construed into a manifestation of a desire to precipitate convulsions; but he must say, that the peace of Europe could only be preserved by a system of mutual—which he did not call dishonourable—forbearance and compromise. Now, he thought that the northern powers had, in respect to Spain, evinced very great forbearance indeed: and he thought it became his Majesty's Ministers, not to tempt that forbearance too far, lest they kindled the flames of a general war. For what purpose did His Majesty's Government interfere? Why, only to support what, if there was a spark of vitality in its composition, must be kept alive by the Spanish people themselves. The constitution of Spain might boast of very little political wisdom, but their Lordships must recollect that the people of Spain were not mere novices in constitutional struggles. He was convinced that our interference could produce no good result; but he wished to know whether by that unfortunate treaty into which His Majesty's Ministers had entered, they had not implicated the Government of this country in difficulties of which they could not see the extent or limit. Suppose the civil war in Spain was to go on for ten or fifteen years—and who that knew Spain and Spaniards would say that the contest might not be continued for a longer period?—would the people of this country, op-
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pressed as they were with public burthens year after year vote sums out of the public money to continue a murderous strife which brought no glory, and in which they had no imaginable interest? It was observable, too, that in all this business his Majesty's Government had only professed to expect some general possible, and remote advantage to this country. He trusted that after all that had been said, His Majesty's Ministers would restrict their interference in Spain within the narrowest limits that it was possible to set out. He was quite sure that the path of policy and the path of honour lay in that direction. Such a course would be more conducive to the peace of Europe—such a course would be better for England and would be better for Spain.
The Earl of Mintomust say one or two words on the most ungenerous treatment which had been bestowed on the brave men under the command of General Evans, who had acted with a degree of forbearance and humanity—and on this he would appeal to the noble Duke (Wellington), whose fairness and generosity he acknowledged—of which he knew few examples in history. It had been the fashion in the debates of last year to say, that these men would, if they continued in the Spanish service, come home half savages, and that they would be unfit for the society of their friends. He asked whether there was any thing in the conduct of those men which indicated a probability of such behaviour? and he would observe, that, notwithstanding all that had been said with respect to the disgrace which had been suffered by the British name, in consequence of the atrocities which had been committed, not one word had been said of him who had been the author of these cruelties. The noble Earl who had last spoken, adverting to the conduct of the British Legion at Irun, said, that soldiers of the Spanish garrison fell upon British bayonets not before the surrender, but after the victory had been gained. Now, he thought it due to that corps to read the official despatch of Lord John Hay, or at least the concluding sentence of it:—"This important fortress surrendered on the 18th inst., and I have the greatest satisfaction in bearing testimony to the respect which was paid to the persons and property of the inhabitants by her Majesty's troops." In a private letter accompanying that despatch, after com-

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plimenting the gallantry displayed by the troops on that occasion, Lord John Hay said, "Every possible respect was paid to the persons and property of the inhabitants, not a man was killed after the town had surrendered, and it is wonderful that the Legion kept their temper so well, as the day before they left Hernani five of the corps were taken and shot by the Carlists." If he wanted any other document he would refer to the letter drawn up by the garrison of Irun, and addressed to Don Carlos, in which they stated, that 700 families were indebted for the lives of their relations to the forbearance of the British troops, and in which they requested in the most emphatic and impressive manner, that their barbarous Sovereign would repeal the cruel order which he. had given.
The Marquess of Londonderry, in reply, asked, did the noble Earl suppose that noble Lords on his (the opposition) side of the House approved of, or did not look with horror upon, the sanguinary conduct of the Carlists? He maintained, however, that the Christino generals, at the commencement of the war, led the way to these atrocities. But what had been the course taken by his Majesty's Government? He would fearlessly declare, that they had not used their best efforts to insist upon the Spanish government giving an example of humanity, which, if they had set, he would take upon himself to say, would have been immediately followed by those who were opposed to them. With respect to the services of the Legion, he had never touched upon them. As a soldier he should be very sorry to judge these questions if he had not all the grounds for forming an opinion before him. He might have an opinion upon the despatches which had been published, but they might not contain a correct account of what had happened. Looking, however, at those despatches, he must say, that it appeared to him that if it had not been for the gallant seamen and the distinguished corps over which the noble Earl (Minto) presided, the Legion might have been placed in a very difficult situation. The Legion was in confusion; the columns were in disorder; they were clogged, they could not deploy, and, by mistaken directions, they had been placed in positions in which they were rendered useless. If the noble Viscount argued upon military details, he might hear opinions he was not prepared for.
Subject dropped.