Sitting of 11 December 1837

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Parliamentary Elections; Sheriffs' Courts; and Court of Session (Scotland.—rtcad a second time:—Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.
Petitions Presented. By Mr. WALKER, from Bury, Lancashire, against the Duties on Foreign Wool and Olive Oil.—By Mr. WALLACE, from two places in Scotland, in favour of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan for reducing the rates of Postage.—By Mr. WHITE, from Sunderland, in favour of the Emancipation of the Jews.—By Mr. WAKLEY, from Shefford, Bedfordshire, in favour of the Ballot.

RIOT IN WATERFORD CATHEDRAL.
Mr. Colquhounrose to put a question to the noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, respecting some proceedings in the city of Waterford, of which he took it for granted that that noble Lord was cognizant. He was alluding to a violent riot which recently took place within the cathedral church of that city—a riot which had suspended the performance of the Protestant service, and which had terminated in the expulsion of the Protestant clergy from their own church—a riot at which the police were present, and of which the authorities at Waterford must have been fully cognizant. The question to which he wished to obtain an answer was this—"Has the Irish Government issued any orders directing an inquiry to be instituted into the conduct of the au-

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thiorities and of the police upon that occasion?"
Lord Morpeth, in reply to the question just put to him, observed, that in consequence of a memorial which had been sent to the Irish Government from Waterford, stating the circumstances which had occurred there, the following answer had been written by the Under Secretary for Ireland by the authority of the Lords justices of that county. The noble Lords then proceeded to read a letter signed by Mr. Drummond, in which it was stated that the Lords justices had received a memorial, signed by several respectable inhabitants of the city of Waterford, complaining of a violent outrage committed in the cathedral of that city, and that they had directed him to inform the memorialists that no time should be lost in commencing a full inquiry into the truth of their complaints. It further stated, that if the allegations set forth in their memorial should be substantiated, the memorialists might rely upon the assurance of Government that it would use its best endeavours to bring to justice all who were engaged in so disgraceful an outrage, and that it would direct the local authorities, whose duty it was to preserve the peace, to take every precaution for the prompt suppression of such disturbances in future. A copy of the memorial and the answer had been sent to the Mayor of Waterford, and he had been required to make a report and observations thereupon. The Inspector General of the Constabulary had also been ordered to inquire into the conduct of the police on that occasion.

IRISH CHURCH.
On the motion of Lord J. Russell that the order of the day for the second reading of the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill be read, for the purpose of postponing it,
Sir G. Sinclairrose and said, that he thought he could not embrace a more favourable opportunity for asking her Majesty's Ministers whether they intended to introduce, and at how early a period, any Bill relating to the Irish Church? As long as they occupied the Opposition benches, nothing would go down with them but tithe bills and appropriation clauses. His right hon. Friend, the Member for Tamworth, had been precluded by factious proceedings on these subjects from bringing forward many salutary measures of great importance, but it seemed
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that, as these propositions had answered their purpose by enabling Ministers to climb into office, they were now laid on the shelf in order that Ministers might retain those places by keeping them back which they had acquired by urging them forward when it suited their purpose. Objects seemed to assume a very different aspect according to the positions from which they were viewed. The tithe question, which appeared like a mountain when looked at from the Opposition side of the House, had dwindled into a mole hill when contemplated from the towering altitude of the Treasury bench. The Bill always crept into the House about the fag end of the Session. It seemed to labour under a mortal complaint, according to the unanimous verdict of the whole college of state physicians—a complaint which took the form of a lingering disease, rather than that of a galloping consumption; it travelled through the House by slow and easy stages, halted with consummate prudence at each resting-place for days and even weeks, and seemed to shrink with instinctive horror from a nearer approach to that "bourne," from which no traveller, encumbered with an appropriation clause by way of passport, could ever be expected to return. The measure never appeared in the House until all the railroad and enclosure Bills and others of superior importance could no longer be interfered with, although its introduction was a necessary prelude, or at least concomitant, to the favourable consideration of the other questions connected with Irish policy. In fact, her Majesty's Ministers had neither the manliness to take steps for forcing the Bill through the Legislature, nor the modesty to acknowledge their inability to carry it, and move that the appropriation clause be rescinded, nor the decency to resign, when they were baffled on a great measure, which they declared to be indispensable for public tranquillity. They quailed before the majesty of the House of Lords, who, by their firm and patriotic defence of our Protestant institutions, had established the strongest and most universally acknowledged claims to the respect and gratitude of the country. Sir G. Sinclair concluded by repeating his question, as to. the intention of her Majesty's Ministers on the subject of the Irish church, and wished to know at what period, after the recess, a Bill would be introduced?
Lord J. Russell: A Bill on the subject

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of the Irish church will be introduced after the recess.

MESSAGE FROM THE CROWN.
Lord J. Russellappeared at the bar, and in answer to a question from the Speaker, replied that he brought down to the House a message from the Crown. The noble Lord, having been ordered to bring it up, placed it in the hands of the Speaker, who proceeded to read it, having first ordered hon. Members to be uncovered.
"Victoria Regina,
"Her Majesty, taking into consideration the provision made by law for the support of her Royal Highness, the Duchess of Kent, her beloved mother, recommends this subject to the care of her faithful Commons, in the full confidence that they will adopt such measures as her Royal Highness's rank and station, and her increased proximity to the throne, may seem to require."
On the motion of Lord John Russell, it was ordered that the House should resolve itself to-morrow into a Committee of the whole House, for the purpose of taking into consideration her Majesty's most gracious Message.

CIVIL LIST.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Civil List Acts.
Mr. Humebegged leave to ask what course the right hon. Gentleman intended to take on going into Committee? He was anxious that the House should not be pledged to any particular line, as the report had been only that morning placed in the hands of Members.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was quite true, as the hon. Gentleman had stated, that the report had only been placed in the hands of Members that day, but every possible effort had been made to give it publicity and circulation. He was about to propose resolutions carrying into effect its recommendations, with the view of introducing a Bill, in the future stages of which opportunities would be afforded of discussing every point that might be raised. In the present state of business, and when they were close on the holidays, he trusted the hon. Member would offer no opposition to the resolutions. He should move them without offering any observations, but he would pledge himself to the House, that the order of the day should be brought on at an early and con-
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venient time, and that every facility should hereafter be afforded for discussing the question. The Bill, to which the resolutions were preliminary, would take a considerable time to go through all its stages, though he should endeavour to proceed with it as rapidly as was consistent with his wish that it should be fully discussed. He should propose to report the resolutions to-morrow, to introduce the Bill and to discuss it in Committee on Friday. This would allow Gentlemen time to consider the report, and they would then have an opportunity of making any observations they chose to offer.
Mr. Harveysaid, be understood the right hon. Gentleman proposed to defer any discussion on the subject till Friday. It would be convenient to him to know that on that occasion he (Mr. Harvey) would press for a definitive answer from Government as to their intention in reference to the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster. He would also ask in what way they proposed to deal with that very considerable source of income, hitherto in the enjoyment of the Crown, arising from the estates of persons dying intestate without heirs?
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, as the last was a very complicated question, perhaps the hon. Member would put it in writing. He (Mr. Rice) would endeavour to get an answer from the Lords of the Treasury, which he trusted would prove satisfactory; if it were not so, the hon. Member might repeat the question on a future day.
House in Committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that for the support of her Majesty's household, and for maintaining the honour and dignity of the Crown, there be granted to her Majesty during her life a net revenue of 385,000 l., together with an additional revenue of 10,000 l. for her Majesty's household servants; that the payment should commence from the day of the demise of his late Majesty; that it should be charged upon the consolidated fund, and that, in addition to such annual sum, a sum be granted in the way of pensions upon the civil list to the extent of 1,200 l., and,—"That all the hereditary revenues of the Crown in England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well as the droits of Admiralty, droits of the Crown, four and a-half per cent. duties, and all the other branches of the casual revenues arising

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out of the United Kingdom, or the foreign possessions of her Majesty, which at the period of the demise of his late Majesty were subject to the Crown of Great Britain should, during the lifetime of her present Majesty, be carried to the consolidated fund."
Mr. Humehad not heard anything in the resolution respecting Cornwall or Lancaster. He wished to know whether the revenues of those two duchies were to be surrendered?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer: Certainly not. He had never for one moment considered that they were to be surrendered, and they did not pass under the title of revenues of the Crown.
Mr. Humehad great objection to the exclusion of these revenues. On a former occasion, when a Bill passed the House containing the same words, a noble and learned Lord, then a Member of that House, said they had been taken by surprise, and the right hon. Gentleman himself, if he recollected rightly, contended that the revenues of the duchies came within the meaning of the resolution. He should say nothing more on the subject, as he now found they were excluded, but he had one observation to make. He hoped that the time had now arrived when the droits of the Admiralty would be abolished, since a more barefaced robbery had never been committed on a highway than the levying of these droits of Admiralty on the sea. From 1790 till the end of the war, individual property to the value of 12,000,000 l. sterling had been seized without a declaration of war, the owners of which had no knowledge that a state of war existed, and could not be prepared for it. The United States made a proposition to the Governments of Europe, that as private property in towns taken by an enemy was always held sacred, private property in ships passing from place to place should be protected. Some of the smaller states had agreed to act on it, and he thought it a question well deserving the serious consideration of the House. He hoped that in the course of the Session measures would be taken by some hon. Member to relieve the country from the disgrace and opprobrium attaching to the present system. Like most other ill-gotten gains, the money had produced little benefit, for it had been lavished at the pleasure of the Minister of the day. It was quite unworthy
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of that House to permit the public service to be carried on by such means, and though he was aware that the chance of war was extremely slight in the present aspect of Europe, this was the very time for Parliament to prevent the possibility of adding to its horrors by such a system of spoliation. The Danish claims formed part of the consequences of that system, but he trusted that a law would be speedily passed to put an end to it.
Resolutions agreed to.
House resumed, resolutions reported.

POOR-LAWS. RIOT AT BRADFORD.
Mr. Fieldenrose to bring before the House the painful occurrence that had given rise to the motion of which he had given notice—the collision between her Majesty's troops and her Majesty's subjects in the town of Bradford, in Yorkshire. He regretted that neither the Members of the borough nor the Members for the West Riding of Yorkshire, in which the borough was situate, had thought it their duty to bring this grave subject before the House. This being the case, he had been requested to do so, and from that duty he should not shrink, but he had to lament that the affair had not been brought forward in the House by some Gentleman more competent to do justice to the subject. Before this House was reformed an unfortunate collision like the one at Bradford would have been noticed in the House without any delay, and if the reformed House neglected to inquire into the circumstances attending the disturbances at Bradford, it would, in his opinion, be guilty of a dereliction of duty. The cause of the disturbance arose out of an attempt now making to introduce the New Poor-law Bill into the Bradford Union. The facts were these:—A preliminary meeting of the guardians was held in the town on October 30, at which meeting Mr. Power, one of the assistant-commissioners attended. Some manifestations of dislike to the New Poor-law were shown by 200 or 300 persons assembled on this occasion, and Mr. Power, on his way from where the meeting was held to the inn, had some marks of personal disrespect shown to him, and appeared to be the object of attack by the crowd. The whole, however, was nothing more than a schoolboy's affray, and might have been prevented by timely interference by constables of the town. This meeting

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was adjourned to the 13th of November, and in the interval a police force from London, out of the A division arrived in Bradford. It was said these men laid aside their uniform dress, and were noticed in plain clothes acting as spies on the people of Bradford. On the 12th (Sunday), Mr. Power entered the town with some of the Leeds police. On his arrival the magistrates and some of the guardians waited on Mr. Power, and stated that they entertained fears lest the peace of the town might be endangered if the meeting of the guardians was held the day following. They recommended that the guardians should only meet to adjourn, and to this suggestion it appears Mr. Power somewhat reluctantly consented. The guardians met on the 13th accordingly, and adjourned the meeting to Monday, the 20th of November, the day the collision took place. But on Saturday, the 18th, in the evening a troop of the 15th Hussars, from Leeds, arrived in Bradford, and were quartered at the different inns in the town. This created great alarm, and caused many inquiries by the people. "What!" said they, "are we to have the New Poor-law forced upon us by the military at the point of the bayonet?" Dismay and dissatisfaction spread through the town and the surrounding district. Yet, notwithstanding the strong excitement that prevailed, it does not appear that more than some 200 or 300 persons attended before the court-house at ten o'clock on Monday, when the guardians met to transact business. The crowd wished the meeting to be held openly, but this was refused, and the avenue to the court was barricaded to prevent the people entering. The crowd showed their disapproval of this course by shouts and expressions of dissatisfaction. At twelve o'clock, when the workers in the factories, of which there a great number in the town, came out for dinner, the crowd increased to about 5,000 persons. This increase of numbers heightened the clamour, and one daring man in the crowd set to work to remove the barricade, and make a passage to the guardians. The military were in readiness, and, headed by a magistrate, galloped to the court-house. The Riot Act, it is said, was read; many people went away, but many remained. Soon the military were directed to charge, which they did; this roused the indignation of the people, who now, with stones, assailed
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the soldiers. Charges and countercharges followed—swords against stones and stones against swords, until the people were dispersed. The troops were ordered to their quarters, and it was hoped no more disturbance would be witnessed; but on the guardians retiring from the court, after the business was over, the crowd again collected, and showed their displeasure at having been denied access to the meeting. The guardians, consequently, became alarmed, and the military were again called out, and directed to charge, which they did repeatedly, and it is said were at last obliged to fire in self-defence. No lives were lost, but many persons narrowly escaped, and several were wounded. A young man who had taken no part in this affair had his arm shot through, and has since suffered amputation. In commenting on the proceedings of this unhappy day, the Bradford Observer, a Whig paper published in the town, denies that this was a demonstration against the New Poor-law; but it says much ill blood has been stirred, and it is as likely to vent itself against the New Poor-Law as anything else. And it adds, to which he (Mr. Fielden) begged the attention of hon. Members, "the sending of the military into the town was a most ill-judged act. There was no ground for it. We have great pleasure in stating, by authority, that the magistrates neither directly nor indirectly advised it, neither did the guardians. The magistrates had no idea of their coming until they arrived in the town on Saturday night. It was known that the soldiers were sent in consequence of an order from the Home Secretary of State, but of course that order would not have issued unless plausible reasons for military interference had been stated. We know not who supplied those reasons, but we think that the public has a right to be informed. Till we know who to blame we must withhold further remarks on this point." Now, Sir, it is to obtain the information which this Whig editor seeks and which the public have a right to demand that I have given notice to move for the returns. If all this be true, a more disgraceful affair perhaps never occurred. Mark the time too, the very day and hour when her Majesty from the throne, on opening her first Parliament, was assuring us of the "domestic tranquillity which at present happily prevailed throughout the country,"

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Yes, these words were uttered by her Majesty in her speech from the throne, when it must have been known to those who had framed that speech that they had taken measures and given orders well calculated to disturb that tranquillity in the industrious town of Bradford. That supplies another reason why the public have a right to demand the returns he had given notice to move for. The public had also a right to expect some explanation from the noble Lord why the customary measure of employing the civil power, instead of a military force, was not first resorted to, as had been done on Monday last, when 250 special constables were sworn in to preserve the peace in this unfortunate town on another meeting of the guardians. Had this been done on the 20th of November last no collision would have taken place between the soldiers and the people, and the peace of the town would have been preserved without the shedding of blood; but it was clear some further design is entertained. In Bradford, which contains a population of 20,000, six constables have been all the force required to govern that town for many years; but the noble Lord was anxious for what he calls a more efficient police all over the country, and this procedure has been adopted to make out a case for this more efficient police. There was reason to believe this was the fact. Let the noble Lord deny it if it be not so. Such a police would subject the people of Bradford to an expense altogether unnecessary, and nothing but dissatisfaction would follow. The people of Bradford were an industrious, well disposed people; they required no coercion. They were willing to labour, and what they wanted was not to be overworked, and a fair remuneration for their labour. Was it unreasonable, then, on the part of these people of Bradford, that they should have shown uneasiness at the attempt to carry out a law so obnoxious as the New Poor law at the point of the bayonet—a law to shut them up in workhouses, if they were in want, before they could obtain relief, and impose restraints on the poor revolting to the feelings of every human mind? The rich as well as the poor of that town were opposed to the bill. A meeting was held there on the 6th of March last to petition the Legislature against it. It was attended by a great many thousands. At this meeting the magistrates (who on the 20th of No-
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vember had to call out the military to make war on the same people) attended, and one of them, Mr. Thompson, addressed the meeting as follows:—
"Mr. M. Thompson was received with loud cheers, and said, that he felt it to be most conscientiously his duty to come forward on that occasion, in defence of the poor, the weak, and unoffending, who might be reduced by misfortune, and not by crime, to the necessity of applying for relief to the great national charity, first legally established in the latter part of Queen Elizabeth's reign. By that act (43d Elizabeth) was the foundation of the poor man's hope laid—by that was his legal claim established, to support in need., in age, in his infirmity—by that was his claim settled, to demand the aid of his wealthier neighbour in the day of his destitution and distress. This was the English law, but this claim was settled by a higher law still—that of nature, and above all, that of God [hear, hear,]; and he would assert, in direct opposition to the spirit and clauses of the present most objectionable act, that the poor man in the day of his distress had, both from reason and Scripture, a claim upon the funds of his richer neighbour, and that not to be considered as a been nor as a loan, but as a right. For 300 years this right, established by law, coevally with our Protestant Church, had remained undisputed until the present act emerged from the dark cave of its fabricators—an act which from the first he had, and to the last he should, he must, most decidedly disapprove. He would not condemn every part of it, however; the clauses relating to settlement and removal were decidedly good, and yet capable of further improvement; let them, however, approach the august assembly of the legislature with firmness, and yet with all due deference and respect; and he would hope that its obnoxious clauses would be either modified or repealed as the case required. Those relating to bastardy he considered to be among the worst of them. By them, that is, by their practical working, the seducer of the weaker sex was allowed to go unscathed; and the whole onus of the crime, as to present consequences, was laid upon the, too often, least guilty party. He would most confidently state, upon his own experience, as a magistrate, that so far from bastardy having decreased, it had most fearfully augmented. His frequent communications with the overseers and parish officers around had convinced him that this was the case. Affiliations had, indeed, nearly ceased, but illicit connexion and births had not diminished. He declared that the Commissioners were incapable of judging of the state and merits of the poor; and that this law gave the guardians no power to dispense relief except by certain arbitrary and fixed rules, made by three strangers in London; and that the rate-payers, or their responsible representatives (which the guardians were not), were far more likely to be

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just, humane, and judicious distributors of this great national charity. He also protested against the workhouse system of the commissioners. Certainly they were prisons; and it was not to be borne, that a poor, but honest Englishman, should be immured in one of those places, before he could demand relief in his necessity. God forbid that he should sanction the system of separating man and wife, contrary to nature, and in defiance of the sacred word of God. [Tremendous cheers, in which the shrill voices of many females, who were present, were distinctly heard.] Was a poor man, reduced by misfortune to the necessity of claiming support from his country, to be treated as a felon? he would never consent to it. But he would show them some of the elevations of those great places. ['Bastiles,' and cries of 'They dare not build them here.'] Here they were appended to the first report of the Poor-law Commissioners. Mr. Thompson here exhibited the plans and elevations, observing that the masons among them would well understand them. He pointed out the order of separation, uniformly arranged for in every one of them. [During this exhibition, the exclamations of the crowd were various—'Put the Commismissioners in,' 'Put the Guardians in, let them try it,' 'Down with 'em all.'] When the excitement had subsided, Mr. Thompson proceeded—I have looked over these plans very carefully, but I cannot see any place for your bits of furniture. What is to become of your frugal cottage furniture; is it to be taken care of, or what are you to have to begin the world with again when you come out of these great workhouses? When your cottages are deserted, and the windows all broken, who is to repair them for you, when you escape from your confinement? Gentlemen and fellow-townsmen, I am daily conversant with the affairs of the working people, the situation which I hold brings me into contact with them daily: I know the character and affairs of the working people, and am convinced that they deserve no such treatment in the day of trouble as this Act contemplates. I shall not detain you with further remarks; I shall always be ready, when I feel it my duty, to assert the rights of the poor against every attempt to invade them; and I now most heartily move the adoption of the resolution put into my hands."
A petition founded on the resolutions passed at this meeting was presented to this House by Mr. Hardy, the then Member for Bradford, on the 13th of March, and which is printed in the list of public petitions. Who then, were the declaimers against this Malthusian law, and who petitioned for its repeal? The whole body of the clergy, gentry, and poor people of Bradford, with the magistrates of the town at their head. Yet that House altogether disregarded the prayers and sup-
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plications of these people; and when hey ask for protection against having this unchristian law forced upon them by the Commissioners of Somerset House, they are answered by having it forced upon them by the sword and the musket, and by an overwhelming military force. This was a dangerous experiment, and altogether unwarranted. But it was said the Bill was getting more into favour in the manufacturing districts, and that Mr. Thompson, who made the speech he had read, had become satisfied with the new law, and had acknowledged his conversion. This has been said in another Whig paper, the Leeds Mercury of the 4th of November. The editor of this Whig newspaper, in his comments on the proceedings of the meeting of Guardians and Mr. Power, held on the 30th of October says—"Mr. Matthew Thompson, a Tory magistrate, who was long and decidedly opposed to the law, but who now came forward manfully to acknowledge his change of opinion The conduct of Mr. Thompson does him infinite credit, for it is a difficult thing to confess former error, and to avow a change of opinion; but Mr. Thompson made the avowal at the very time when it exposed him to popular indignation." But what, said Mr. Thompson to the editor of the Leeds Mercury, in reply to these remarks? In a letter to the editor, dated November 11, Mr. Thompson writes thus:—
"I beg most distinctly to state my former objections to those parts of the Poor-law Amendment Act I have expressed as objectionable are not removed; and when an opportunity offers I shall be amongst the first to petition Parliament for an alteration of the Act. The clauses 79 to 84 I have always approved; experience has shown that great expense in litigation has been saved, and the comforts of the non-settled poor considerably increased.
"MATTHEW THOMPSON.
"Masingham-lodge, Nov. 8."
That was Mr. Thompson's own statement and denial of his mind having undergone any change as to this unfeeling Act. There were only six clauses out of 110 that the Act contains of which this intelligent and practical magistrate expressed his approval. A meeting too was being held in the town of Bradford this very night, called by the constable in consequence of a requisition presented to him, signed by above 350 respectable inhabitant householders of the town, to petition this House for inquiry into the

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cause of the recent disturbances, and for the repeal of the Act. Why, then, all this haste to force this despised law on this industrious people at the point of the bayonet? Had the same haste been shown to carry out other Acts of which the people of Bradford feel the operation? Had the Factory Act, passed one year before the Poor-law Amendment Act, and made too, to protect young children from being inhumanly overworked—had that Act been enforced? Let another new law-maker, a factory inspector, and whose duty it is to enforce this law, answer this question, Mr. Homer, the factory inspector, in a letter to Mr. Senior, dated in May last, and which correspondence had been published in a pamphlet, says, "I am persuaded that fully one-half of the children now working under the surgeon's certificates of thirteen years of age are, in fact, not more than twelve, many not more than eleven years of age." Mr. Homer might have said many not more than nine or ten years of age, and this he was prepared to prove. Protection to innocent children was denied by those who are resolved to carry out by military force the new Poor-law Act, although there is an Act made one year before the new Poor-law Act to protect these children, and a similar machinery constructed by the Factory Act to that contained in the new Poor-law Act to insure its execution. Why was not the Factory Act enforced? Why did not the noble Lord send down his spy police and the soldiers to enforce the Factory Act? Would the noble Lord give an answer to that question? That is not the only case where the Government has shown neglect of duty towards the poor people of Bradford. In that town and the surrounding district it was estimated there were 25,000 unfortunate human beings dependent for a livelihood on handloom weaving. The distress of these poor people was known to every one. The earnings of the weavers, on the average, was said to be only 4s. 6d. to 5s. per week, and in most cases there were two, three, or four individuals who have to subsist on this sum. The papers abounded with statements, that 1¾d. to 2d. per day is all these poor people can earn to support them with food and clothing. Now, it would be in the recollection of the House, that an address was voted to her Majesty in July last, imploring her Majesty to issue a commission to inquire into
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the state of the unfortunate handloom weavers. The commission had not yet gone forth. Why had not that been done? The noble Lord should tell the House. Would it not have been more becoming a Minister of the Crown to have redressed the grievances of the people of Bradford first? And had the noble Lord done so, no necessity for military interference could have arisen. Was it possible, for these people to think otherwise than that the laws were administered leniently towards the rich and harshly towards the poor? The proceedings at Bradford must be attended with such a result. But it was said, that ignorance prevailed in the manufacturing districts of the excellent working of the new Poor-law. The answer that he would give to this charge would be found in the petitions presented to this House last Session. For repeal there were 164 petitions, signed by 201,967 persons. For amendment 152 petitions, signed by 63,796. For exemption from the Act seventeen petitions, signed by 3,269; and in support of the Act only thirty-five petitions, signed by 952 persons. So much for ignorance, if that be ignorance, it overspread the land. But amongst these petitions there was one praying for repeal from Stroud, the borough which the noble Lord represents in this House. This excellent Act was in operation there; the petition was signed by 1,837 persons, many of them of the first respectability. The petition was sent to him for presentation, and he presented it to the House in July last. The petitioners complained of the central board as being unconstitutional. They reprobated the workhouse system and the separation of husbands from their wives, and parents from children—they expressed their unqualified dissent from the principles of the bastardy clause, and they prayed the House to pass another Act, repealing the present Bill, which would recognise an extensive and liberal system of out-door relief in all cases of deserving objects. Now, it would be impossible for the noble Lord to convince the people of Bradford that the new Poor-law worked well, when his own constituents in his own borough thus condemned it. There was no necessity for this law in the manufacturing districts. Lord Althorp, when the Bill was passing through the House, doubted the propriety of introducing it there. What would he have now said, when it was

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introduced with bullets and bayonets? The noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department had better retrace his steps; he was treading on dangerous ground, and he will effect no good, but otherwise, by carrying the law into the north, even if he can succeed. In a return in the third report of the Commissioners the expenditure was given per head, according to the population of 1831, for 1834 and 1837 for all the counties in England and Wales. This return showed—that in 1834, in Sussex, the expenditure was highest, being 18 s. 1d. per head; that in the West Riding of York, in which Bradford is situate, the expenditure was only 5s. 2d. per head at the same period, being the lowest expenditure of any of the counties, except Cumberland and Lancaster; and that in 1837 Essex was the highest, being 9s. 4d. per head, and the West Riding of Yorkshire was the lowest expenditure of all the counties except Lancaster, the West Riding being 3s. 6d. per head, and Lancaster 2s. 9d. per head. Those facts spoke' volumes against the unjustifiable proceedings at Bradford. They show that there was no necessity for this law to be carried there against the will of the inhabitants; and the noble Lord, if he acted wisely, would retrace his steps and recall his soldiers and his police. The hon. Member concluded by moving for the following returns: "A return of the names of any of the metropolitan policemen who may have been sent to Bradford, in Yorkshire, since the 1st of October last, and up to the 22d of November; the number of days that they have been so employed, together with the order of the Commissioners of police, and the precept of the magistrates commanding and authorising the attendance of such police constables at Bradford. Also, a similar account relative to the policemen sent from Leeds to Bradford. Also, copies of any correspondence between the Poor-law Commissioners and their Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Power, and the Board of Guardians, or between those parties and any other person or persons relative to the sending of the London police and the military into the town of Bradford, together with any correspondence that may have taken place relative to the same matters between Mr. Power and the Home-office, between the Poor-law Commissioners and the Home-office, or between any other person, or persons and the Home-office."
Mr. Wakley,in seconding the motion, said, that it was not his intention to enter then into the question of the Poor-laws, as there was a Committee sitting on the subject. He hoped that any one who felt himself aggrieved under the new system, at Bradford or elsewhere, would come forward. A Committee had been sitting for now two Sessions on this subject, but their inquiries would be utterly useless, and it would be useless for individuals to complain of the new Poor-law system, unless they sent the fullest information as to the grounds of their complaints before the Committee.
Lord J. Russellhad already stated that he did not object to the substance of the motion. He would object, however, to the giving the names of the policemen who had been sent down to Bradford, for he supposed that the same course that was pursued at Bradford by the opponents of the new Poor-law Act might be adopted elsewhere. When the Commissioners formed a union, it had been the practice of those who were opposed to the new system to call on the people by placards, by speeches, and other means to mark those who were active in forwarding the objects of the Commissioners. Now, as he was not disposed to assist the views of such opponents of the measure, in a course which might lead to assassination, he would not consent to give the names of those men who were sent down from London to Bradford. He would observe, with respect to the course taken by the Poor-law Commissioners, that when they directed the formation of a union at Bradford and its vicinity, they did not send down any set of rules or regulations as to the manner in which relief should be given, further than that it should be by the board of guardians, instead of the overseers, as before. It was left to the guardians to direct the administration of relief according to their discretion under the Act. When he had been asked last year as to the intentions of Government in applying the new Act to the manufacturing districts, he had said that the Government would proceed with caution, that it was not intended to apply it at once to those districts, but that in those districts where a union was practicable and advisable, the Government would not allow the plan to be resisted by force, and that where such force was used, it should be at once met by force on the part of the

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Executive. Now, it did appear that when a meeting of the guardians was announced at Bradford great excitement was created, and particularly directed against Mr. Power, the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, and when, therefore, he was informed that it was probable that force would be used by the opponents of the act at Bradford, he gave directions that such a military force should be assembled as would enforce obedience to the laws, and directions were sent to that effect to the General commanding that district, by whom a force was sent which was sufficient to restore tranquillity. Afterwards the guardians held their meeting without disturbance. It would be admitted that when guardians appointed by law were resisted and openly prevented by force from the performance of their duty, it then became the duty of those who were intrusted with the execution of the laws to take care that they should be enforced. However strongly individuals might feel opposed to the Poor-law, it could not be permitted that they should oppose it by force. When such a disposition was known to exist, it was promptly met and opposed, and tranquillity was restored. It was not his intention at that time to enter into the question of the application of the New Poor-law to the manufacturing districts. He would admit that in many places in the north the poor-laws were much better administered than in others, but though it might not be advisable to introduce the whole law into such districts, yet guardians might meet, and where abuses were known to exist, they might be got rid of, and thus by getting rid of the worst parts of the old system might facilitate the introduction of the better system. He did not. say that the new system should be introduced into manufacturing districts, except where facilities existed for its introduction, and when introduced, and when the adjoining districts had the means of knowing how it worked, they might give facilities for its introduction amongst themselves. With respect to the motion, he would suggest that there should be added the words, "so far as it may not be injurious to the public service." He suggested this because in correspondence such as the hon. Member moved for, there occasionally occurred remarks relating to individuals and local circumstances which it would not be desirable to publish. With these remarks
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he would now withdraw his motion for reading the order of the day for going into the Committee of supply, in order to allow the hon. Member's motion to stand as the original motion.
Mr. Briscoesaid, he was struck with one observation of the hon. Member for Oldham, that there were 25,000 handloom weavers in that district whose earnings did not exceed 4s. 6d to 5s. per week each. Now, with such a fact before them, could they expect anything else than discontent at Bradford at the introduction of the poor-laws? If relief could be given only in the work-house, how could that mass of beings, who must be in distress, be relieved in the workhouse? For his own part, he should be willing, in or out of that House, to contribute to the relief of those distressed parties, but certainly not to continue them in a trade which did not afford them the means of subsistence.
Mr. George F. Youngsaid, that the great objection to the New Poor-law Act was, that it attempted to apply an uniformity of system to places where such uniformity was absolutely impracticable. The system might be made to work well in agricultural districts, but it would not apply to manufacturing districts, and to large masses of the people. If he had understood one remark of the noble Lord it was, that the Poor-law Commissioners did not interfere at Bradford beyond the formation of the union, but that there was no interference with the board of guardians. If so, then what had Mr. Power, the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner to do at Bradford? He also thought it was wrong to send down any of the London police to Bradford. It was not fair to the people of London, who were so heavily taxed, to pay that force. He was aware that 60,000 l. of the expense was paid by the public, because it was very properly considered that the peace of the metropolis was a matter of imperial interest. He admitted that the money was well applied, and that the metropolitan police was now a very efficient force, and that his first objections to it were altogether removed; but he must still think that it was not fair to the rate-payers in the metropolis to have any part of a force for which they were taxed sent to other parts of the country.
Mr. Brothertonbelieved, that it had been satisfactorily proved to the House

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that the Poor-law Amendment Act was not applicable to the manufacturing districts of the country. He thought, also, if the people were instructed how to manage their own affairs, there would be no necessity for the interference of the Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. Grimsditchknew that the present motion had been decided on from facts which had occurred. He thought it utterly impossible that the Poor-law Amendment Act could work in these districts. He would just allude to the situation of the union of Macclesfield. This union had been in operation nearly two years, and he held in his hand copies of some of the quarterly accounts, showing the number of persons who had been relieved, and the amount expended; but so great was the number of paupers that he thought it impossible to manage this union according to the new workhouse system. The guardians had purchased a quantity of land for the purpose of building a new workhouse, but this they afterwards abandoned. The union consisted of forty-one townships, extending over 60,500 acres, and with a population of 50,000. For the quarter ending 25th March, 1837, he found, exclusive of those to whom relief was afforded by the workhouse, 3,040 had received out-door relief; for the quarter ending 24th June, the number was 4,447; and for the quarter ending 29th September, 4,587. He would put it to the good sense and feeling of the House whether Government ought not to take these circumstances into consideration, and he would ask whether it was possible that any union could accommodate such a mass of people? He felt assured it was impossible, and he was anxious that the Poor-law Commissioners should take it into consideration as the first point of their inquiry. He was certain that hon. Members would be convinced by the returns he moved for that it was impossible to apply this system universally.
Mr. Darbysuggested that, as it seemed intended that the law should undergo some change in the manufacturing districts he hoped that an amendment could be made in it to meet the cases of those who in the agricultural parishes had large families about them, having married under the old system. He had taken part in managing a large parish for nearly three years, and he had been since chairman of a board of guardians. His experience proved
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to him that there were many persons who had married under the old system, and now found themselves unable to maintain their families, a great part of the relief which they had formerly obtained being so suddenly cut off. The consequence was, that while the children went out to pillage, the old couple were left to suffer in poverty, or to take the alternative of breaking up their little establishment and going into the workhouse. If this rule were not relaxed he should give notice of a bill to alter the law in this respect. He did not ask for anything new, but wished that the test of the workhouse system should be continued, only leaving it to the board of guardians to say what exceptions should be made to that regulation.
Lord J. Russellobserved, that the hon. Gentleman who spoke last did not seem to have well considered the suggestion which he had made. The proposition which he made if acceded to, instead of being an application of the workhouse test, would prove a recurrence to the old system of making allowance to parents. He owned he was afraid of a relaxation of this rule, particularly from the effect which he apprehended it would have of lowering wages.
Mr. Darbyexplained. He did not intend that the scale for affording relief, such as giving it to all children above five years of age, should be observed, but that when the parents who had married under the old law were not able to maintain their children, the board of guardians should have the discretion of assisting them.
Mr. Brocklehurstsaid, he had listened with no small degree of pain to the statement, made by several hon. Members in reference to the working of the Poor-law Act in the northern manufacturing districts, and he felt himself compelled to rise when he heard the lamentable condition of 25,000 weavers so hastily disposed of by hon. Gentlemen below him. Now what did all those complaints and opposition prove, but that something was very wrong? yet, in all that he had heard to-night, no one had referred to what he believed to be the root of the evil. In all the attacks made in that House and on hustings, the remedy had been always kept out of sight, and persons had contented themselves about regulating dietary tables and the separation of the members of families; but would these regulations make the people pros-

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perous? Formerly they measured the prosperity of the cotton trade, for instance, by the pieces of print and calico they exported; alas! now they estimated it by the millions of pounds of cotton twist; in other words, raw material after the first process; and when talking of 25,000 ruined weavers, did it not seem more becoming a Legislature to inquire what became of this twist—did it go to countries, at great cost and inconvenience, to be woven by cheaper-fed labourers? His belief was, that if they put their own artisans on anything like a fair ground to compete with their foreign rivals, they would hear no more about the hardships of the Poor-law Act. From all he saw going on, the time was approaching when necessity would drive them to inquire into that tender subject; they should, then, be right ready to give redress; but if it were long delayed, might they not find that their too restrictive laws had compelled those foreign corn-growers to resort to manufacturing, and unwilling to relinquish their vantage ground?
Motion agreed to as amended by Lord J. Russell.

COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND).
Mr. Wallacewished to call the attention of the House to the petition of Mr. Henry Jones, complaining of the dilatory proceedings of the Sessions Court in Scotland. He believed it had fallen to the lot of no hon. Member before to have had occasion to present two petitions from one individual during the progress of a single lawsuit, but this was the second petition which he had presented from this individual since the proceedings to which the petitioner referred, had commenced. They had had a discussion a few days ago about the Danish claims, and he thought that they would find money enough to satisfy those claims within five years if they appropriated to that purpose the salaries of the useless judges in Scotland. They were to have a Committee upon the pension list, but they ought to have a Committee to inquire into the sinecure offices of the judges of the county courts in Scotland, as well as to those who were not required in the court of session. There were in all fourteen judges who did not sit more than live months in the year, not longer on the average, than two hours a day, during that period. These judges were, moreover, far advanced in life. One of them was
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between eighty and ninety years of age, and the others were of a very advanced age. The statement of the present petitioner was, that he was an inhabitant of Upper Canada, and that the lawsuit which brought him over to this country had been pending for four years, and that he suffered great inconvenience and injury from the dilatoriness of these proceedings. He had had reason to expect a trial of his case during the Christmas recess, but he now found that the trial was to be postponed to arch next, which would make it altogether four years since the commencement of the proceedings. This delay was the more extraordinary as in criminal cases they had a very efficient and prompt jurisdiction. The hon. Member proceeded to complain that, though a law commission for Scotland had now been sitting for several years, yet they had only made two reports, although so far back as February, 1837, they had been promised another report, which had not yet made its appearance. He concluded by giving notice that he should move that the present law commission for Scotland should be discontinued, and that it should be referred to a Select Committee to inquire into the nature of the jurisdiction of the civil courts in Scotland.
The Lord Advocatehoped, before the House adjourned that he would be afforded an opportunity of saying a very few words in reference to what had been advanced by the hon. Member, with respect to the particular case which the hon. Member had made the occasion of introducing a great variety of topics. As he was in ignorance of the circumstances of that case he could not of course enter into them; but a delay of four years in the final decision of proceedings was not greater than had often occurred in the courts here. It was no unusual thing for a suit to be delayed for a period of four years in the courts here, and he believed, in the course of a discussion that occurred a few nights ago, the Attorney-General had incidentally mentioned a case in which he was engaged where the delay was equally great. The hon. Member was quite mistaken in his statement respecting sinecure judges. There was one eminent judge of great age, but remarkable for preserving undiminished his great powers, and that judge feeling himself perfectly able to do so, still continued in the performance of his duties. He did not think that whilst

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a judge was competent to the discharge of his duties he should be expected to resign, and the hon. Member ought also to recollect that when that judge retired from his office he would be entitled to a retiring pension. Now, with respect to these sinecure judges, he would remind the hon. Member that a Select Committee had sat to inquire into the duties and salaries of those judges, and that committee had reported that those salaries were inadequate With respect to the law commission, he believed the commissioners themselves would be the last to object to be relieved of their duties. During the whole time they had acted gratuitously, and whenever their report was laid before the House he was sure that it would be found to be a great been and a great advantage to the country.
House adjourned.

MINUTES
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ALBEMARLE, from Wisbeach, for allowing Magistrates to act in towns where Quarter Sessions do not at present exist.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from Banbury, and by the Duke of CLEVELAND, from Sunderland, for extending the Municipal Officers' Declarations Bill to the Jews.

ROYAL MESSAGE.
Viscount Melbournepresented the following gracious message from her Majesty, which was read by the Lord Chancellor:—
"V. R.,—Her Majesty taking into consideration the provision made by law for the support of her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, her Majesty's beloved mother, recommends this subject to the care and attention of their Lordships, and relies with full confidence on the zeal and loyalty of the House of Lords to ad6pt such measures for the future provision of her Royal Highness as her rank and station, and her increased proximity to the throne, may seem to require."
On the motion of Viscount Melbourne, the message was ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow.

NEGRO APPRENTICES.
Lord Broughampresented petitions from the Baptist Missionaries of Jamaica, and from a Wesleyan Chapel, Kingsbridge, (Devon,) praying that immediate steps might be

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taken to place the apprentices in the colonies on the same footing as the emancipated negroes. There was, he conceived, great cause for the complaints which had been made in this country, generally, and also in the colonies, on this subject. Those complaints were directed against the legislatures of the colonies for their delay in performing their part of the implied, if not expressed, compact, when a large sum of the public money of this country was voted to them. He admitted that an important and salutary change had been effected by the emancipation Act; but all that could be done had not yet been effected under it. The further progress of the measure ought to be accelerated, in order that the moral condition of the slaves and their physical situation might be still further improved, and it behoved the Government and the Parliament of this country to adopt measures for effecting that object. He had moved for returns with respect to the money which had been granted to different parties, under the Act of 1833. He had insisted on the necessity of there being laid on the table a return of the names of those to whom awards had been made, for the purpose of seeing who had, and who had not, performed their part of the compact. He conceived that he had given ample time for the production of those returns; but now they were told ''you must wait six or eight weeks longer, until after the recess, as the commissioners cannot be ready before that time." Now, if that delay took place, the return, he feared, would be of no use. If there were any difficulty, he would be contented with an account of all sums awarded, and the names of the parties in the first instance. That, he thought, could be produced without the least difficulty. But, if they waited until after the recess, the whole 20,000,000 l. might be paid without their knowing whether the awards had been earned by a due performance of the compact or not.
Lord Glenelgsaid, that no desire existed in any quarter to withhold the fullest information on the subject. There were, however, difficulties to be encountered in framing the account in consequence of the change and decease of claimants. If his noble Friend would call on the commissioners, he was sure that they would give him every information in their power.
Lord Broughamdid not mean to say,
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as the paper had not been refused, that Government wished to delay its production, or that it was wilfully delayed by the commissioners. But what he complained of was, that what appeared to him to be unnecessary delay had been interposed between his motion and the production of the return. What his noble Friend had said did not in the least degree convince him that the paper could not be furnished much earlier; and he wished to stimulate the commissioners to produce it as soon as possible. It was extremely simple; one line stated the award, another the name, a third the sum paid, and the fourth, the party to whom payment was made. If there were any difficulty in making out the return, in consequence of parties dying, and a delay being occasioned in finding out to whom payment was to be made, he was willing to omit, that part, and to put up with a bare account of the sums awarded. He certainly did expect by the production of the return he had moved for, to be able to make out a case against those who had received money but who had not performed their part of the compact.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that when, three years ago, this bill was passed, it was understood that something would be done to give education to the negroes. He wished to know from the noble Lord what had been done on this important subject by her Majesty's Ministers? In his opinion, every thing that was possible ought to be done to qualify the negroes for their new state. The noble Lord had now held the office of Colonial Secretary for upwards of two years, and he thought it was time that the House should know what had been done upon the important subject of negro education. When he had the honour of holding the situation which the noble Lord so ably filled he had been pressed severely upon this subject; and he wished to know to what extent the object to which he referred had been attended to.
Lord Glenelgsaid, that although the papers upon this subject had not been laid upon the table of their Lordships' House, they had been upon the table of the other House of Parliament, and sums of money had been voted by the House of Commons for the purposes of general education in the colonies. Those sums had been applied upon a principle which he had no doubt would meet with the approbation and sanction of the House. They had

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been distributed through the medium of different societies, whose object was to further education in the colonies; and he could assure the House that there had been no laxity on the part of her Majesty's Government to effect so desirable an object as the education of the negroes. Mr. Latrobe, a great traveller, and one perfectly well qualified for the duty, had been sent out last summer, in the capacity of inspector, to examine what had been done in the West India colonies with reference to education; and he had no doubt that that gentleman would be enabled to make a report on the subject that would be satisfactory to the House and to the country.
Lord Broughamsaid, if he had known that the noble Earl meant to put a question on this important subject to the noble Secretary for the Colonial Department, he would have prepared himself to give an answer to that question. He could, however, answer the question, so far as it related to one of the colonies. He had before him two messages, addressed by the noble Governor of Jamaica (the Marquis of Sligo) to the Legislative Assembly of that island. In the first he found this passage:—"I sent you down no less than four measures on the subject of an extended system of education, and, as no measure on that subject, has proceeded from the House of Assembly, can I do otherwise than conclude that you are indifferent to it?" In another message from the same noble Lord to the same body there were these words: "I informed you that the sum of 20,000 l. sterling had been voted by the English Parliament for the support of education in the colonies, with a promise of further assistance. You have taken no steps to make that assistance available." Again, in another part of that message his Lordship said to the House of Assembly, "I have transmitted to you despatches from the Secretary of State for the Colonies, recommending the repeal of the 33d canon with a view to facilitate the extension of religious education; but you have refused to repeal it." There was, then, it would appear, no want of funds, at least in Jamaica, for the purpose of education. Funds had been voted on this side of the water, and the intentions of the British Legislature were frustrated, and its liberality rendered unavailing, by those to whom we had given so many millions.
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The neglect of education, then, was not owing to there being no funds, but to the refusal of the Legislature of Jamaica to repeal an intolerant canon, and their continued disregard of the appeals made to them by the governor.
Lord Glenelgsaid, if his noble and learned Friend imagined that the education of the negroes had been neglected by the Government because the House of Assembly of Jamaica was opposed to its extension, that opinion was not correct. The Government of this country had done its duty as far as it possibly could. The Government had persevered in promoting education. It had applied to that object the sums voted by Parliament for the purpose, and its efforts, he was happy to say, had been assisted by several private societies.
Lord Broughamspoke entirely and exclusively of the conduct of the colonial legislature, and not of the Government, which was obliged, in fact, to contend with the House of Assembly.