Sitting of 3 March 1836

MINUTES.
New Writ. On the Motion of the LORD ADVOCATE, for Paisley, in the room of Mr. ALEXANDER GRAHAM SPIERS, who has accepted of the Chiltern Hundreds.
Bills. Read a third time:—On the Motion of Mr. AYSHFORD SANFORD;—slaves Compensation; Capital Punishments.
Petitions presented. By Mr. HUME, from Limekilns, against part of the Charges payable by British Shipping at St. Petersburgh.—By Mr. WILKS, from Tamworth and Ware-ham, for Relief to the Dissenters; from Boston, Preston, and other Places, in favour of Mr. BUCKINGHAM'S Claim.—By Captain PECHELL, from several Places, against the Land-tax; from the Licenced Victuallers of several Places in Sussex; and by Mr. JERVIS, from those of Chester, against the Additional Duty on Spirit Licences, —By Mr. J. C. DUNDAS, from York, for Corporation and Church Reform to Ireland, against Tithes, Church Rates, and against Military Flogging, and in favour of Relief to the Dissenters, of Ballot and Household Suffrage, extensive Law Reform, and equally extensive Church Reform.—By Mr. T. B. LENNARD, from Essex, Loughton, and Castlegate, for Relief to the Dissenters.—By Sir HENRY SMYTHE and Mr. BRANSTON, from four Places, —for Relief to the Agricultural Interest.—By Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD, from Belfast, in favour of Mr. BUCKINGHAM'S Claim; from, several Places, against Tithes.— By Mr. BERNAL, Sir G. STRICKLAND, Messrs, DANIEL GASKELL, ROBINSON, and WILKS, from a Number of Places,—against the Additional Duty on Spirit Licenses. —By Sir RONALD FERQUSON, from Nottingham, for Relief to the Dissenters; also for an Alteration in the Municipal Corporations' Act.—By Captain GORDON, from Aberdeen, for the Repeal of the Attornies Tax: also against any Alteration in the Timber Duties.

TIMBER DUTIES.
Mr. Robinsonpresented a petition, signed by several hundreds of the principal inhabitants of Nova Scotia, who stated, that they had heard with alarm the proposed alteration of the Scale of duties on Timber. The ostensible object of the alteration was for the benefit of persons engaged in the timber trade;
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but, judging from the evidence that had been offered before the Select Committee on Timber Duties, he was of opinion that no such result would be produced. If the President of the Board of Trade bad been present, it had been his intention to complain of the long state of suspense in which the colonies had been kept with respect to the intentions of the Government. Some allusion had been made on a previous evening to what had been said at a meeting of ship owners where he was present, attributing certain expressions of opinion to an hon. Gentleman also present, with respect to the intentions of Government to delay the measure in contemplation until late in the Session, and then to pass it in a thin House. No such thing was said, nor did he believe that any such attempt would be made. But this was said, and in this he concurred, that Government should bring forward their measure at the earliest possible opportunity, in order to give leisure to professional persons interested in the subject to direct their attention to its investigation. He trusted, that whatever the measure might be, it would not be founded upon partial evidence; but that the whole of the evidence taken before the Committee would be made its foundation. With respect to that evidence, since his experience in Parliament, he never knew of such extraordinary delay in the delivery of the Report of a Committee. The evidence was complete in August, and it was not till the following January that the Report was delivered. Had the Report not been allowed to remain during all this period in the printer's hands, the leisure of the recess might have been employed by Members in attending to its recommendations, and the colonies might have become acquainted with that which, so deeply affected their interests. Had not his hon. Friend the Member for Teignmouth (Mr. G. F. Young), a motion in a specific shape on the subject of the timber duties on the Orders of that House, he should have thought it his duty to inquire into the cause of so apparently unaccountable a delay; but as that was the case he should refrain from further remarks until opportunity was afforded him. on the occasion of the discussion on that motion.
Mr. Roebucksaid, that the colonies would not be affected by any alteration in the timber duties, which would have the effect of lessening or abolishing them altogether. He had full authority from one of the largest of the Colonies concerned in the

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timber trade (Canada) to say, that it was their wish that the duties on foreign timber should be entirely done away with.
Mr. George F. Youngcomplained, that when, on a former evening, he wished to know what was the nature of the negotiations pending with some of the northern powers upon this subject, his question was ingeniously evaded by a reply from the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade, that because the negotiations were still pending they ought not to be disclosed. He was, however, anxious that the nature of these negotiations should be made known, for it might turn out that the very thing was intended which those connected with the timber trade wished to have avoided. He should take every opportunity of calling the attention of the House to this subject until it was satisfactorily arranged.
Lord Sandonsaid, that the hon. Member for Bath must have been under a mistake, when he said he had the authority of the colony of the Canadas for his assertion. The hon. Member might, no doubt, be in possession of the authority of the Lower House to that effect; but the Lower House was generally composed of merchants and persons resident in towns, having no particular interest in the trade in timber. It was otherwise with the proprietors of timber land, who formed a large proportion of the population of the Upper Province; and he was able to state that they were, almost without exception, deeply opposed to it.
Petition laid on the Table.

SIR FREDERICK STOVEN.
On the Report of the Committee on the Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill having been brought up,
Sir Robert Bateson, seeing the noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, in his place, wished to ask a question relating to the statement made by him (Sir Robert Bateson) on a former night, when this Bill was before the House. Hon. Members were aware, that he made an assertion to the effect that an officer in the police had communicated to him a circumstance which showed the wish of the Government to make the Police Force in Ireland a political body. But he refused, when taunted by Gentlemen opposite, to state the name of his informant, and he now wished to know if what he had heard from Ireland was true—namely that circular letters had been addressed by
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Government to every police officer in Ulster, requiring to know whether any of them had communicated with him (Sir Robert Bateson) on the subject.
Viscount Morpethcould tell the hon. Baronet that no such circular letters were, so far as he knew, addressed to the police officers. With respect to the charge brought on a former evening against Sir Frederick Stoven, he could say, that Sir Frederick had been applied to, and Government had received such an answer as would enable them fully to refute the insinuations against his conduct. He was convinced that there existed no foundation whatever for the hon. Baronet's charges. He would take another opportunity of stating fully to the House what he considered a complete vindication of Sir Frederick Stoven's conduct.
Sir Robert Batesonsaid, there was no need for Government to go to expense in sending those circular letters. He was willing to state the name of the gentleman upon whose authority he made the assertion, and was on the night he made it ready to do so, but he did not think it right to yield that information to the ironical cheers with which he was assailed from the other side. His informant was Mr. Somerset Curry, and he hoped this person would not have to contend with the vengeance of the Irish Government, or of the party which directed their entire proceedings.
Viscount Morpethwould not notice the observation of the hon. Baronet respecting the vengeance of the Irish Government. All he would say was, that when the proper time arrived he could show that his charges against Sir Frederick Stoven were altogether unfounded.
Subject dropped.

THE DORCHESTER LABOURERS.
Mr. Roebuckbegged to ask the hon. Member for Finsbury, whether he intended to renew his Motion relative to a remission of the sentence passed on the Dorchester labourers, now that Orange Lodges and secret societies were suppressed?
Mr. Wakleywould be glad to have a few days to consider what course he should adopt. In the course of the discussion upon that subject the noble Lord (Lord John Russell), the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had stated that the question was likely to be satisfactorily set at rest; and, from

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the amicable Feeling that then existed, he did not think that it would be necessary to renew his Motion. (He Mr. Wakley) trusted that the course which the Government would adopt on this question would render it unnecessary for him to renew his Motion.
Lord John Russellwas able to say, that since the discussion that had taken place in that House, he had thought it his duty to recommend to his Majesty that two of the Dorchester labourers should have a part of their sentence commuted. He had already stated that four out of the six had been permitted to return at the end of two years, which would terminate in October of the present year; and he had felt it his duty to recommend to his Majesty that the remaining two should return at the end of three years, which his Majesty had been pleased to direct. He did not think that anything had since occurred which would induce him to recommend a further remission of the sentence which had been passed upon these persons.

POOR RATE AND HIGHWAY BILL.
Mr. Poulett Scropemoved for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the levy of the Poor-rate and Highway-rate in all the parishes of England and Wales upon a uniform system of valuation and assessment. There existed great discrepancies, as every body knew, in the valuation not alone of different districts and boroughs, but also between the valuations in different parishes of the same district and borough. He would read several extracts from the Reports of the Poor-Law Commissioners, in order to prove the correctness of his assertion. He might be asked what was the cause of these discrepancies, and the consequent injustice they entailed upon some portions of the population of the country; but he did not know, unless it were the system of jockeying which took place between parish and parish, To remedy these evils, he proposed two simple enactments in the measure he prayed for leave to introduce to the House. The first was, that the poor-rate and highway rates should be levied on the real, and not on the assumed, value of property. The second, that there should be a primary appeal allowed to the Bench of Magistrates at Petty Sessions, which should be held several times a year for that purpose. He did not think that the
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new valuation would require any great expense to effect it, and he was certain it would be productive of the happiest results to all concerned. There would no longer be the inconvenience and injustice resulting from arbitrary and incongruous levies on the parishioners, nor would there be any continuance of that petty and harassing legislation, and appeals to Quarter Sessions which now prevailed. The overseers would speedily and effectively a range ail these matters, by acting on the principle of equal assessment, embodied in the Bill which he now begged leave to bring in.
Captain Pechelldenied the evil effects which the hon. Member attributed to the working of the present system, and appealed to the state of the county of Sussex for the sufficiency of the present mode of valuation when properly acted on.
Lord John Russellthought, that great advantage was likely to be derived from the Bill. At the same time he must say, that he contemplated some difficulties as likely to arise in making estimates of the real value of property by the local authorities, and he could not, in consequence, pledge himself to give it his unqualified sanction; but he trusted no opposition would be offered in the present stage.
Sir Robert Peelcalled the attention of the House to one of the most serious consequences of the existing mode of levying parish-rates. The hon. Mover had, with much justice, complained of the great inequality of assessments amongst parishioners, and also stated the anomaly existing between separate parishes in the same county, some being assessed at three-fifths of the entire value, some four-fifths, and some at the whole value. This perhaps would signify little between individuals of the same parish, if they were fairly assessed by any fractional amount deemed necessary, whatever it was; but it might be very material to the same individuals and the parish at large, when (heir rates were compared with other parishes, as a rule for the exercise of other than mere parochial privileges. He would beg to ask the noble Lord, whether under the Municipal Corporations' Act the qualifications of those who claimed to vote for Councillors were estimated at the real value of their houses or interest therein, or at the amount of the actual rate paid? Whether, for instance (the amount of the qualification to Vote for a councillor being

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15 l.), it would suffice to have paid the parochial and nominal rate of two-thirds— that is, 10 l.—to so entitle him? His opinion was, that whatever the real value actually was found to be, they ought to allow the parishioner the benefit of it in exercising his right to vote as a corporator, otherwise the most wide-spread injustice would inevitably ensue from the various and arbitrary modes of nominal valuation adopted throughout the country.
Lord John Russellsaid, that this objection had struck him at the time, and he had felt some difficulty as to the working of the Bill on account of it. He had in consequence subsequently referred the point to the Law Officers of the Crown, and their decision was, that the Bill must be interpreted to refer to the amount of the actual value paid by the individual as appeared on the books, and not the real value of the house or property out of which they voted. He himself thought that this construction of the law threw a great hardship on the inhabitants who happened to be assessed nominally lower than their neighbours of an adjoining parish. But in the Bill now before the House it was proposed, as a better remedy than meddling with the Municipal Corporation Bill, to take steps to attain the real value of property in parishes, and the real amount a man was entitled to vote for, and thus all existing anomaly and injustice would be effectually done away with.
Mr. Bainesadvocated the justice and expediency of the measure. He knew parishes where the rate was only one-eighth of the real value. A man residing therein would require to be possessed of eight times the value of property of another in a neighbouring parish, where the entire amount of property was assessed, to enable him to vote on an equality in corporate affairs.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

COUNTY BOARDS (IRELAND).
Sir Richard Musgravesaid, it was his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill for establishing County Boards in Ireland. His principal object in doing so was to afford increased employment for ablebodied labourers. He agreed with other hon. Members in thinking that employment for the able-bodied poor was full as necessary as relief for the helpless poor, and therefore he hoped to obtain leave to introduce the measure he had brought before the
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House. It was a separate measure, for men best acquainted with Ireland were of opinion that the question of employment ought to be treated separately. Under the English law, indeed, both of these subjects were included in one Act. It was found that the inferior food and strict discipline of the workhouse compelled labourers to seek for employment elsewhere. But such a system could not apply to the state of Ireland; for there the labourer was already reduced to food of the lowest description, and the want of employment was so great that in too many instances the labourer was idle during great part of the year. It was, therefore, most prudent to provide employment, instead of giving the able-bodied labourer a claim for relief in the first instance. Many plans had been proposed for the cultivation of waste lands, the establishment of poor colonies, and for other purposes. Whether these were profitable speculations remained to be proved. To him it appeared safer and more useful to improve existing institutions for carrying on public works, and thus to extend the demand for labour. Where good communications had been opened through waste lands, improvement and cultivation had almost invariably been extended by private, enterprise to every species of soil capable of yielding a profitable return. He proposed, then, in the first instance, to substitute County Boards for Grand Juries for local taxation. In doing so, it was not his intention to deprive gentlemen of property of that control which they ought to exercise over county taxation. Under this Bill men of property would form the County Board. He did not seek for any violent change, for he was too sensible of the value of such local institutions. He believed that without them the affairs of any country could not be properly ad-ministered. Similar local institutions had for a long period existed in Holland and in other countries, and the best Dutch writers had attributed the wealth of Holland principally to these institutions. But he was anxious to apply the principle of representation to these bodies, and public opinion was decidedly favourable to such a change. From long experience he was well acquainted with the operation of the Grand Jury laws. But still he would not have ventured to undertake the difficult task resulting from the present motion if he had not been enabled to take advan-

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tage of the labours of two friends of his, who brought to the subject great legal knowledge and great experience in the affairs of Ireland. He alluded to Mr. George Harrison, of Lincoln's Inn, and to a relative of his own, by whom this Bill had been drawn, up. The principal clauses had been printed and distributed some years since, and every useful suggestion was respectfully attended to, After all means had been adopted in order to render the measure unobjectionable, the Bill had been completed, and last Session had been read a first time and printed, by order of the House. This course of proceeding was not only calculated to produce an useful measure, but was also respectful as regarded that House. The power of nominating the Grand Jury, as exercised by the High Sheriff, was most objectionable. It was an anomaly at variance with the first principles of the British Constitution, which did not allow that any individual should exercise such a degree of control over public taxation. There was, indeed, an appeal to a Petit Jury from the decision of the Grand Jury; but the party traversing must employ counsel, agent, and witnesses, at the assizes, and cannot, even if he succeed, recover any part of the expense which he thus incurs. So various, too, are the views taken by petty juries of the utility of public works, that this tribunal is very uncertain and unsatisfactory. To give the High Sheriff, in the first instance, the unjustifiable power of nomination, and then to endeavour to correct this evil by an appeal to a Petit Jury, appeared to be a very unwise administration of public works. The Bill proposed, then, that the entire power and duty of taxation for local public purposes, be vested exclusively in a County Board, to be elected by the rate-payers. The rate-payers are to meet in each barony, in order to elect a certain number of persons. Out of the entire number so elected in all the baronies, the High Sheriff is to select the County Board. The County Board is to consist of not more than sixty nor less than thirty members; and is to continue in office for twelve months, until the succeeding Board is appointed. The members of this body are to possess a certain qualification. At their first meeting the County Board is to appoint a Committee of Superintendence, for superintending all public works and establishments within
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the county. The members of this Committee are to sit and vote with the Magistrates at Special Sessions, and their powers and duties in other respects are defined by this Bill. At present, certain ratepayers sit and vote with the Magistrates at Sessions, by which provision it was evidently intended to establish a check on the decision of the Grand Jury. But Grand Juries have so construed the law that they now often actually select the rate-payers from amongst their own friends and tenants. To substitute the Committee of Superintendence for these rate-payers will, I trust, appear to be an improvement. The Chairman of the County Board is to be an officer appointed by Government. In Ireland the Chairman of the Quarter-Sessions is a barrister, nominated by the Crown, and the greatest public benefit has resulted from this regulation. It is necessary, on every account, but particularly if public works are to be extended, that the Chairman of the County Board should, by his legal knowledge, be able to guide that body in the discharge of their duty. The foreman, as the law is now administered, is too often appointed without any regard to his being qualified by knowledge of the statutes under which he is to act, and the results are great delay and public loss in transacting the business of the Grand Jury. All applications for public works are to go before the Special Sessions, as at present, for investigation. A report of the proceedings of these Sessions, with all papers and documents, is to be transmitted for final decision to the County Board. The laws relating to the civil duties of Grand Juries are so numerous and so intricate, that some of the most eminent counsel in Ireland will not venture to give an opinion on matters connected with these statutes, unless the particular section and chapter be pointed out by the solicitor who consults them. It is not surprising, therefore, that Grand Juries should not readily comprehend such complicated laws. The last Grand Jury Act requires that the particular section, authorising a presentment, should be cited in each application. Any person who has attended Special Sessions must know how difficult it is to comply with this provision—to select the proper sections amongst a hundred Acts, containing clauses without any arrangement or order of succession, and relating to a vast variety of subjects. The result of such a

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state of law is, that many gentlemen are deterred altogether from attending Sessions, and many important public works are obstructed or prevented from being-executed. A distressed population is thus deprived of employment, and is forced to seek relief in England and in other countries. By the Bill which he proposed to introduce, the provisions of this confused mass of laws were consolidated, and various amendments were introduced, and the entire was written in plain, intelligible language. This, he trusted, would be found to be an useful improvement. The Board is to appoint a bank for the receipt of the taxes; and thus losses from the insolvency of treasurers would be avoided, An alteration is proposed in the collection and appointment of county rates, by which the landlord is made liable to a certain portion of these taxes. This provision is in accord with a recommendation of the Committee of 1830. The landlord, as Grand Juror, exercises the power of settling the amount of tax to be paid by his tenant in effecting permanent improvements in the way of public works. After a short lease the landlord can step in and take advantage of his tenant's expenditure. Of late years county rates have risen greatly in amount. In Waterford, within the recollection of many persons, the rates have risen from 8l, or 10 l. to 15 l., 20 l., and even 25 l. per ploughland. This rise has certainly been accompanied with great improvement in the roads and public works. But it is unjust and unmerciful to lay the entire burden of expense on the rack-rented tenantry. In taking a lease no tenant could have expected such a rise in the amount of county rates. In order to remedy this injustice, the Bill proposes that when a valuation has taken place, the county treasurer shall in his warrant state the poundage on the annual value payable by each denomination of land. And then every party having paid rates directly or indirectly, may, out of the rent next payable by such party for the same property, make a deduction not exceeding 3s. 4d. of such poundage, on the annual rent thus payable, as shall have been used for ascertaining the rates in consequence whereof the deduction shall be claimed. Suppose the occupier's tenement is valued at 100 l. per annum, and his rent be also 100 l. If he pays a poundage of 1s. rate, he can deduct a poundage of 9d. from 100 l. vents; that is to say, if
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he pays 5l. he can deduct 3l. 15 s, from the next rent payable by him. But suppose that a tenant, having a holding valued at 100 l., pays a rent of only 20 l., and that his county rate is a poundage of 1s. on the value of his farm, he can deduct a poundage of 9d. on the 20 l. rent; that is to say, he pays 5l. rate, but he can deduct from his landlord only 15 s. The clause is so drawn that, under it, every person will pay rates in proportion to his interest in land. A 'considerable portion of the Bill relates to the mode of obtaining compensation for land taken or injured for public purposes. In England the amount of compensation is at once ascertained by the verdict of a Jury; but in Ireland the owner of land can only obtain compensation by entering a traverse to the presentment of the Grand Jury. The traverse is then tried at the Assizes, and the amount of compensation settled by a Petit Jury; the costs of this proceeding are paid by the tenant, who has to employ counsel and agents, and to send forward witnesses at his own expense. He had known occupiers to lose a considerable portion of their land in consequence of a new road being made through the best part of their farms without receiving any compensation whatsoever. The costs of proceeding would probably exceed the amount of compensation, and they were thus deterred from obtaining justice. As a remedy, it is proposed that the Committee of Superintendence may settle the amount of compensation by agreement with the owner. If the owner refuses the amount offered, the compensation is to be determined by a Jury, as in England. If the Jury award a smaller sum than that offered by the Committee, the costs of the verdict are to be deducted from the amount of compensation, but otherwise they are to be paid by the County Board. By another part of the Bill it is proposed to give the County Board power to determine what tolls are are to be taken or paid for the use of any public work executed by a contractor. Under the Grand Jury Laws, at present, the Grand Jury possessed a power of settling the amount of tolls in certain cases, and the Bill proposed an extension of these powers to be exercised by the County Board. He had endeavoured to explain the principal clauses of the Bill, and he believed it was not necessary to eater into a more lengthened detail on the pre-

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sent occasion. The other clauses could be more readily understood when the Bill was printed. The schedules contained numerous forms suited to the various provisions to which they referred. The forms in particular relating to the conveyance of lands, would be found to be useful and sufficient. He would now move for "leave to bring in a Bill for the administration of certain civil affairs of a local nature by County Boards in Ireland."
Mr. Wyserose with peculiar pleasure to second the motion of his hon. Friend. From the first moment he had held a seat in that House he had never ceased, whenever the opportunity occurred, to impress upon the Legislature and the Government the necessity of a radical re-organization of the whole local taxing machinery of Ireland. So early as 1831, in resolutions read to the House, he had strongly pressed upon the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), then engaged in a reform of the grand jury laws, the imperative duty of the government to look into the source of the evils of which all complained, and to substitute representative for the nominated irresponsible bodies which governed the contributions of the people. He had then proposed county boards, acting in conjunction, and under the superintendence of a general board of administration in Dublin, and that again with a committee on Irish affairs of the House of Commons, and charged not only with the local management of public works, but also of charters and education. The government of that day preferred patching up the old system, with the short-sighted policy of most of our governments, to going largely and boldly, like true statesmen, into the whole question. The result then prophesied has since come to pass: the measure, ill-devised, ill-arranged, resting on principles false and unjust, and acting by machinery the most heterogeneous and opposed, has only added new abuses to the old, and rendered reform more than ever necessary. Honourable Members on the other side of the House have a horror of local institutions; they would centralize every thing, draw every thing to the capital leave heart alone, and deprive the members of all right and power of action in the community. Centralization was some times, and, to a certain extent, necessary It cherished, directed, gave energy, intelligence, and uniformity to administration in every part of a state. But it should not
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be pushed too far—it should not absorb— it should only have its proper share, and no more, in the system. Local government was not less requisite; and any statesman who thought it expedient to exclude it from his plan, only proved that he was grossly ignorant of the first principles not of liberty only, but of policy, and condemned his own awkwardness and incompetency, rather than proved any disqualification in the country itself. After the speeches heard from the opposite Benches a few nights back, he supposed the remedy proposed by hon. Members for the abuses of Grand Juries would be to annihilate them at once. This would be only consistent; but such hints had never been heard. All parties, whether they thought towns entitled to the management of their own affairs or not, admitted that counties ought to have that power. Grand Juries had always, as an institution, been supported in that House. The question then was not, whether there should be local management, but by what manner and by what bodies it should be exercised. He (Mr. W.) admired the English Constitution, not as a shadow, but as a reality. The principle of that Constitution was, that no man should be taxed but by his own consent. If this were not the principle, then the whole of our Revolution was a rebellion, Hampden a traitor, and this House of Commons an usurpation. If true in one case, why should it be false in another? If the King could not exact sixpence from his poorest subject without the consent of the people, through their representatives, with what consistency could a Grand Jury, the creature of a High Sheriff, he again the creature of the Crown, pretend to such a power? Was there one constitution for the payer of the King's excise, and another for the payer of the Grand Jury tax? Were they not all British subjects, and all entitled to true British rights? This monstrous grievance had been felt, and checks found necessary; but they were checks, not concessions. The noble Lord, who detests every form of election, recurred to every expedient to avoid it. What was his Grand Jury law? He left the Grand Jurors to be chosen, as of old, by the Sheriff, and then brings in the rate-payers in person to check them. The result was obvious. The two elements, instead of mingling, came into collision; the old predilections of Grand Jurors remain, and the ratepayers, but partially instructed, are left with their

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ignorauce to fight them out. It is prejudice against pretension, and narrow views against selfish ones. The rate payer would allow his hedges to tumble, and his roads to become impassable, rather than give sixpence additional tax. This would have been obviated at once by election. The right of the rate-payer would have been preserved, and the working and intelligent men of the country would be those who would ultimately have to decide. What then do I propose should be substituted to this crude effort at legislation? That the Grand Juries should be elected? By no means. Grand Juries are judicial bodies—they should no more be elected than Petit Juries—than Judges themselves. They are emanations from the Crown, and it is right their nomination should rest in its hands. But it is not right they should have the rights they have. Their present powers were gradual usurpations, sanctioned indeed by the law—but who were the law makers?—Grand Jurors themselves. They were deemed the fortresses of the aristocracy and the ascendancy, as against the people and Popery; no privilege too exclusive, no power too exorbitant, could be confided to such hands. But this was still tyranny, however it might be useful to the temporary purposes of a party. They should be stripped of those powers, and brought back again to their simple judicial state. But to whom should they be transferred? Not to the Crown, but to the party to whom they strictly belonged—the people. The people who paid the taxes had a right to manage those—consent to, and control these taxes. This could not be done in mass; it could only be effected through a representative body—that body was the County Board. What were the objections against such an institution? Did they fear the result of frequent elections? It had been found that the very frequency dulled their effect, library, and other committees, did not produce the tumult and dissension apprehended. If dread existed, let the elections be rare—let them be tried at first every five years. Was the influence of demagogues on popular passions a subject of fear? Let there be a qualification of residence and property, as for Members of Parliament, and Magistrates at Road Sessions. Were popular ignorance and discontent likely to produce injurious effects in their selection of members? Why, then, intrust them with the
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choice of Members of Parliament? Were the affairs discussed in this House, and decided, too, of less moment than those likely to engage the attention of a County Board? Talk, indeed, of discontent. A more certain mode of satisfying a country than allowing it to busy itself about its own affairs could not be devised. Why, the very reason there was so much political agitation was precisely because the people were thrown upon it by their rulers —because they were not allowed by their present institutions to discuss their own affairs at home. He (Mr. W.), for one, did not fear enlarging in this particular the powers and functions of the people; he thought they could scarcely be enlarged enough. He would give to this Board, the whole administration of its charities, works, and education, and divide it into three Sections or Committees, who should have their permanent Sub-committees, as Grand Juries now have their Committees of Superintendents of Gsols, &c., who act during the interval from one sitting to the other. The Grand Jury is a fleeting and irresponsible body—this would be a permanent and a responsible one. It would be an excellent school for training to public business, whether in the quality of elector, candidate or public functionary. It would suppress suspicion, and what the people contributed would be contributed cheerfully. It would eventually be by their own vote. But there are considerations which seem scarcely to be felt, or even understood, in this House. When almost every other country has adopted similar institutions—whilst it is well known they flourish under all Governments— whilst they are to be found in Denmark, and Austria, and Russia, as well as France, Belgium &c., we affect to consider them as visionary follies of Radicalism, without philosophy or experience to vouch for their utility. Within this very last year they have been granted, in the form of provincial councils, by Austria to her lowland Venetian subjects; and they have done more to assuage that feeling of bitter hostility than even the introduction of her education system itself. But this House, with its usual amour-propre, disdains to read such lessons, and looks only to itself. Be it so. It is a consolation to the advocates of this measure to find that even since last year, it has made immense progress, and despite of the ignorance of many and the apathy of more—

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despite of the anti-constitutional principles of the opposite Members, and the still more censurable inconsistency of Members on this side—from which blame he was far from excluding Ministers themselves— the time was fast approaching when it would be the law, not of Ireland only, but of every part of the British empire.
Viscount Morpethdoubted whether the Legislature was prepared to adopt so sweeping an alteration in the system of Grand-Jury Laws as the present Bill proposed. Without pledging himself, however, either to the principle of the Bill, or any of its details, he would offer no opposition to the hon. Member's embodying his suggestions in the Bill, which he proposed to lay before the House.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.—

ERRORS IN THE VOTES.
Mr. Scarlettbegged before the business was proceeded with any further to call the attention of the House to a circumstance of unusual occurrence, and which in his opinion, demanded immediate attention. It was as the House knew, the custom every morning to send round printed papers to the Members containing the business of the preceding day, as well as the notices of motions that were to come on. He held in his hand two separate printed papers of that description, each signed by the Speaker, each purporting to be the votes of the preceding evening, one of which contained two more notices of motions than the other, there being eighteen notices in one, and twenty in the second. He begged to draw the attention of the House to this circumstance, and to ask the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair which of them he was to consider as the authentic paper containing the votes. His reason for pressing the question at that moment was because he observed in one of the papers of votes a notice of motion respecting the divisions of the House by the hon. Member for St. Alban's, which he did not understand had been given by him.
The Speakerobserved, that as far as he was concerned the circumstance to which the hon. Member alluded arose from the two notices contained in the paper of votes of twenty were given at so late a period of the evening that he did not clearly understand until afterwards that they had been given, and the consequence was that a second paper of votes was
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printed and circulated in order to correct this error.

COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Humebrought forward a Motion of which he had given notice, for a better system of appointing Committees of the House upon private Bills. He said that, according to the mode at present adopted, it was quite impossible that the business before the Committees could be properly done. He considered that fifteen was too large a number to have on a Committee; and he thought that nine, or eleven at most, would be a more useful and convenient number. It was utterly impossible that Members who were appointed on several Committees could do the business properly. He was himself named on twelve Committees; and how could he, by any exertion, be in twelve places at once? It was monstrous to expect that he could. He should therefore move, "that every private Bill hereafter committed by the House to a Committee shall be committed to a Select Committee of fifteen Members, drawn by Ballot from the list or lists prepared under the direction of the Speaker, and to which the Bill would, by the standing orders and rules of the House, have been committed."
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that the objection which he saw to the Motion was, that it would not be possible to carry it into effect. The hon. Member for Middlesex had observed, that although he was nominated on many Committees, yet he was only compelled to attend in one, and this was quite true. Now there were no less than 300 private Bills introduced this Session, and if each Member insisted upon attending only one Committee on private Bills, the consequence would be that when sixty Committees had been appointed the numbers of the House would be exhausted and, therefore, 240 of the 300 private Bills must of necessity be postponed. Besides, the proposal of the hon. Member, if adopted, would cause such Committees to be taken haphazard from the House, without any reference to the Members of which it was composed being possessed of any local knowledge or connexions. This course would altogether obstruct the progress of business in such a manner as to render it. Impossible to get on. He did not say, that the present method was the best, or that a better might not be devised, and he hoped that

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the Committee of which he had the honour to move the appointment would turn their attention to this point; but if his hon. Friend persisted in dividing the House, he should be compelled to vote against his motion.
Mr. Hume, in reply, said that the House could compel the attendance of members, as they were in the habit of doing with respect to Election Committees, and the same regulations should be enforced with regard to Committees on private Bills.
The House divided— Ayes 15; Noes 78; Majority 63.

POOR-LAWS (IRELAND).
Mr. O'Briensaid, that during the last Session of Parliament, he had given notice, that in the present year he would bring forward measures for the relief of the Poor in Ireland. The Bill which he was now about to submit, was one of those measures; and, although the Government had announced their intention of developing a plan of their own, he hoped that he should still be permitted to lay this Bill before the House. In the observations with which he felt himself bound to accompany his Motion, it was happily no longer necessary for him to adduce any arguments in favour of the general principle, that there ought to be in Ireland, as in every other well-regulated country, a provision for the relief of the poor. The House, the country, and the Government, had, at length, awakened to the disgraceful condition of neglect and wretchedness in which the poor of Ireland had so long been allowed to languish— a condition which, he might venture to say, had no parallel in any country in Europe. The difficulties with which we had now to contend, were of a different complexion to that of resistance to the principle of a poor-law. The problem now to be solved was, in what manner the great interests of humanity could be best served by practical legislation upon the subject. On the one hand, it was to be feared, lest measures of too mild and moderate a character might be wanting in efficiency, whilst upon the other, there was a danger lest enactments of too coercive a kind, might impose upon the holders of property in Ireland, a burden which they were unable to bear. He was not disposed rashly to disregard the interests of those who are in possession of property in Ireland; but upon the other hand, he felt persuaded, that it was
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for the interest of this class to make even a very considerable sacrifice, in order to rescue the population of Ireland from a situation which almost necessarily placed them in opposition to the rights of property, and prepared them for insubordination and crime. The Bill which he should introduce that night was framed upon the principle, that in constructing a system of poor laws in Ireland, there ought to be local administration, combined with central control—local administration, by bodies elected by, and representing the contributors to the poor fund, and general central supervision and control, on the part of a body named by the Government, and responsible to Parliament. The Bill then proposed to erect in Dublin a Central Board of Commissioners of the Poor, similar to that which had been established in England with so much advantage. It would be the duty of this Board to direct and regulate the whole machinery of the poor administration throughout Ireland. Its first task would be to divide each county in Ireland into a certain number of districts, by the union or the division of parishes. It was obvious that the present parochial divisions were unsuited for the purpose of creating any organization, with a view to the relief of the poor, as the parishes in that country varied within such wide limits in point of population and extent. The size of the district which he should be disposed to recommend, would be such, that it should embrace a population of not more than 5,000 persons, and not less than 2,000. The next object of the Board would be, to procure a valuation, for the purpose of assessment. Nothing could be more equivocal or unjust than the mode in which the Grand Jury Cess was at present levied; and as it was not expected that the Ordnance survey and valuation would be completed for several years, it would be necessary, in the mean time, to have some temporary equitable valuation upon which the assessment for the relief of the poor might be based. The formation of such a valuation would be attended with but little difficulty or expense, because in every parish in Ireland there had been recently made valuations under the Tithe Composition Act, and it would only be necessary to correct these valuations, where they were erroneous, and to add to them whatever property had been exempted

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from tithe. The Bill enacted then, that the Commissioners should appoint in each county a sufficient number of valuators to effect, within a limited time— say three months— a valuation of the whole kingdom. Every person in each district, whose holding was valued at a specified amount, say 3l. or 5l., would be considered as liable to the poor rate. Upon a fixed day in each year, the rate-payers in each district were to assemble and elect for the district a warden and council—the council to consist of not less than ten members, and not more than twenty members, and the warden to be its permanent chairman and responsible organ. This local organization was similar to that which exists in France, and he believed would be found of the greatest advantage in reference to many other objects besides the relief of the poor. He proposed himself to take advantage of it in the Bills which he intended to introduce for remodelling the Grand Jury system, and for the regulation of the medical charities of Ireland, and he thought it might also be made use of in establishing a general system of education in Ireland, and even in assisting in the preservation of the public peace. The council would have the power of imposing upon the district a rate for the relief of the poor, which he proposed should be limited to one shilling in the pound upon the property included in the valuation —two-thirds of which rate should be paid by the landlord, and one-third by the occupying tenant. He felt the force of objections which might be urged against a limitation of the rate; but when we were enforcing a new tax, it was only fair to guarantee to those who would be affected by it, that it should not exceed a reasonable amount. It should also be remarked, that if the full maximum of one shilling in the pound were raised, it would produce an aggregate of 700,000 l. per annum, which he believed to be more than sufficient, under proper arrangements, to accomplish all the purposes contemplated by this Act. The council would be empowered to select at their own discretion such persons in each district as they considered proper objects of relief, but only such persons as belonged to the class of what are called "the impotent poor"— that is, the aged, helpless, infirm, disabled orphan, widow, &c. This class would be strictly defined under the Bill, and no relief in the way of weekly allowance to any person not
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belonging to this class would be legal. For the purpose of preventing partiality in the distribution of the fund, and of calling into action public opinion, it would be required that in each district a list should be affixed in some public place, containing the names of the persons relieved, the amount of the weekly allowance, and the cause of relief. All accounts of expenditure should be sent up to the Board every year to be audited by them, and an abstract of the total expenditure upon the poor of Ireland should be annually submitted to Parliament. The Board would also be armed with the necessary powers for correcting any local abuses which might arise, and for keeping the whole machinery in beneficial action. These were the provisions of the Bill as far as regarded the relief of the helpless poor. He thought it of great importance to keep the two classes of the helpless and able-bodied poor distinct, in reference to arrangements for their relief, because for the former a domiciliary allowance appeared the most appropriate mode of relief, whilst for the able-bodied this was a most objectionable mode of assistance. With regard to the able-bodied poor in Ireland, he confessed that, looking to the present state of that country, he did not think it would be safe to adopt to the fullest extent the principle of the English Poor Law—namely, that every man in the community should have a legal title either to relief or employment. Without, however, recognising this legal right, he thought that every measure of a subsidiary kind which could tend to ameliorate the condition of the labourer, who found it difficult to procure employment, ought to be brought into action. However unpopular the avowal might be, he was bound to say, that he thought, in the present circumstances of Ireland, emigration afforded the best resource for the unemployed labourer—that which was the most advantageous both for the emigrant himself, and for the labourers who remained. It was obvious that if any considerable number of the able-bodied poor should emigrate, the wages of labour in Ireland would be proportionably raised; and as for the emigrant himself, he was able at a cost of about five pounds to proceed to the remotest part of Upper Canada, where he could obtain immediately wages at three or four shillings a day, with the certainty, if he were industrious, of leaving a comfortable inheritance to, his family

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instead of starving at home upon wages which ill many cases did not average sixpence per clay throughout the year. It was only a few days ago a paper had issued from the Colonial Office, in which it was stated, that in Upper Canada, notwithstanding the great emigration which had flowed thither during the last few years, and which in one year exceeded 50,000 persons, there is at this moment an active demand for not less than 20,000 labourers. He could not consider any one who encouraged a foolish prejudice against emigration as a real friend to the poor. Persons in the wealthiest classes considered that the best provision which they could make for their young children was to obtain for them a situation in the East or West Indies, where they were exposed to an unhealthy climate, with but a very uncertain chance of returning home, after having spent the best portion of their life in voluntary exile. How much more advantageous to the poor man was the change to a country in which his labour was amply remunerated, in which the climate was similar to that of his own country— where he would probably find many of the associates of his youth, and where he would have the means of returning home at any time at a trifling expense. The Bill then proposed to permit the council in each district to grant aid to poor persons desirous to emigrate, provided the Grand Jury of the county should grant an equal amount. The money so allowed in aid of emigration would be lodged with the treasurer of the county, and could only be drawn out of his hands by a person trained by the Colonial Office. He thought this precaution necessary, to prevent those frightful disasters which had taken place by shipwreck, in unsound emigrant vessels. The Colonial Office had already most beneficially undertaken the superintendence of female emigration to New South Wales; and he thought that all emigration of the poor ought, in a similar manner, to be placed under its guardianship. Another source of relief which he considered available for the benefit of the able-bodied destitute poor of Ireland, was the money which is at present expended under our Grand Jury system, upon roads and public works. The sum so expended amounted annually to about 400,000 l., which, at the usual rate of wages in Ireland, would give employment for four or five months, every year, to about 100,000
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destitute labourers, being about one-sixth of the whole male population, who are not themselves in possessession of land, as occupying cultivators of the soil. He entirely agreed with the hon. Member for the county of Waterford (Sir Richard Musgrave) and the hon. Member for the town of Waterford (Mr. Wyse) that the present Grand-Jury system should be altogether remodelled— that a representative system should be substituted for the present system of nomination. But as he differed considerably with his hon. Friend as to the best means of constructing a new system, it was his intention to submit a Bill to the House, with a view of developing his ideas on the subject; and one of the objects of that Bill would be to render the expenditure of the county works available to the relief of the able-bodied destitute poor, by giving to the district council the power of sending to the baronial works unemployed labourers, who might apply for relief, on the condition, however, that the district should for each labourer so sent, contribute a trifling sum in aid of the baronial funds, as long as he was employed. Another measure available for the unemployed labourer was the colonization of waste lands, by the establishment of institutions somewhat similar to the poor colonies of Holland. He conceived that in the present circumstances of Ireland, such a measure would in every way be most desirable. The capital expended in such reclamation would be employed most usefully and productively for the community; whereas that which was expended upon workhouses was unproductively employed. He was inclined, therefore, to bring in a Bill to permit counties or baronies in Ireland, under proper arrangements, to take waste lands for the purpose of effecting their reclamation by the unemployed poor. With regard to workhouses, he was unwilling to recommend their establishment, although it was possible that, eventually, we should be compelled to establish in each county a few of them, not so much for the purpose of affording relief to the really indigent, as in order to take away all excuse for application for relief from the idle labourers, who might plead inability to find employment elsewhere. As the erection of workhouses, however, was necessarily attended with considerable expense, and as they ought only to be regarded as, to a certain extent, penal establishments, he was unwilling at

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present to make any provision for their erection until all other expedients had been tried without success. As to a collateral measure to those which he had already mentioned, he thought that the medical charities of Ireland should be placed under proper regulation. We had at present many dispensaries, and some hospitals; but, whilst in some districts there were more dispensaries than were needed, in other districts there were none at all, and in many instances there were considerable abuses in the management of dispensaries, which required correction. The present hospitals of Ireland, though supported by the counties at large, were, in fact, only district hospitals, as it was quite idle to suppose that an hospital, situated at a distance of twenty or thirty miles, could be available to any poor person who had met with a sudden accident, or was attacked with any sudden disease. He proposed, therefore, to bring in a Bill, the object of which would be to secure to every district in Ireland containing a certain population, say 10,000 to 20,000 inhabitants, a well-managed dispensary, and to place a well-regulated hospital at a distance of not more than fifteen miles from every poor family in the county—Such was an outline of the measure for the relief of the poor, which appeared to him adapted to the present circumstances of Ireland. It would give him real pleasure to find his projects superseded by plans of a more perfect character; and he had every confidence that the Government would, with sincerity, earnestness, and effect, apply themselves to the ultimate accomplishment of this great legislative effort. It was some encouragement to know that, however imperfect future plans might be, they could be productive of no greater evils than those which we now so painfully witnessed. Sure, also, he was, that it was the duty of Parliament to admit of no delay, to shrink from no sacrifice, to be daunted by no difficulty, in carrying into effect their determination, as far as in them lay, to redeem the country which was placed under their care, from a condition which was alike a reproach to their Government, and a disgrace to humanity. The hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill,
Mr. Sharman Crawfordseconded the motion, but must say, that no measure could effectually relieve the poor of Ireland, which did not embrace, the means of pro-
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viding employment for the peasant who was willing to work for his support, but who was unable to procure it. He considered this of the utmost consequence, because he knew, that whilst a very large proportion of the people in Ireland were most anxious to be employed, they were frequently in want of the commonest necessaries of life, and often in danger of starvation.
Leave given.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT.
On the Motion of the Attorney-General, the House went into Committee on the Municipal Act Amendment Bill.
On the 10th clause having been put, which requires a declaration to be made in certain cases therein set forth by all Dissenters,
Dr. Lushingtonwished to remind his hon. and learned Friend of the very serious difficulty which was experienced by Dissenters in reference' to that part of the clause which required a declaration to be made by persons belonging to the Society of Friends. They and other Dissenters had an insuperable objection to the declaration prescribed or required by the 9th George 4th; but however much he (Dr. Lushington) might sympathise in the feelings of the Dissenters, he feared that as this declaration was regarded as a security to the Establishment, the law must be altered by the introduction of an Act for that specific purpose; and whenever such a measure should be brought forward, he would give it his best support.
The Attorney-Generalwas heartily glad to hear the opinion which his hon. and learned Friend had just expressed. The present law was, undoubtedly, most objectionable, but he thought it would be very inexpedient in this Bill to supply a clause to remove the evil complained of.
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 11 Mr. Lawson declared his intention to divide the House upon it, because he was of opinion that its effect would be to establish Petty Sessions in many towns where there were no gaols.
The Committee divided on the clause: Ayes 88; Noes 6;—Majority 82.
The House resumed.— The Report was brought up.

STAFFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT.
Mr. Divettmoved the second reading of the Stafford Disfranchisement Bill.
Captain Chetwyndsaid, as the representative of that old, and populous, and respectable Corporation, whose liberties it

1201
was now sought, without any colour of justice, to take away, he should oppose the motion. There were 1,300 electors in the town, out of a population of 8,000. For 600 years they had returned Members to that House, and amongst them some of the most brilliant lights that ever shone in Parliament. Until the last accusation, the integrity of the electors was never impeached. The alleged crime was of so old a date as four years and a-half, and he contended that if the criminality were then sufficiently established, the punishment would have followed sooner. It was monstrous, and contrary to all equity and law, to visit the present electors of Stafford with the punishment said, but not proved, to be due to the delinquencies of about five years standing. He should be the last to defend corruption, but he had ample means of proving that the allegations in the Report laid before the House were many of them utterly false, and some of them impossible. He moved, therefore, that the Bill, by which 1,300 electors were to be disfranchised, should be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. Divettsaid, that the subject had been discussed so often, and the Report of the Committee was so decisive, that he felt it unnecessary to detain the House with any additional proofs of the corruption of the voters affected by this Bill.
Mr. Philip Howardsaid, whatever may be the views taken by hon. Members of the Question before the House, there is no one but must admire the feeling and the force with which his hon. and gallant Friend had advocated the cause of his constituents and the old Borough of Stafford.
"Alone he stands the brunt of the attack."
"Solus defendit I lion Hector."
But, no eloquence could cast a shield over the corruption of Stafford; no prowess defend its battered walls; still seeing that there was much of hardship in keeping this Bill of Penalties hanging over the citizens of Stafford for four long years; considering too that the Reform Bill was held to be an amnesty for the past, he should not stay to swell the majority, which devoted Stafford to political extinction.
Mr. Lawmoved the adjournment of the House, as it was now past the hour at which it had been agreed that no new business should be commenced,
Mr. Francis Baringsaid, that the Bill had been brought under the notice of the House before twelve o'clock. He thought it really too hard that a measure which the empty benches on the Opposition side of the
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House proved that all argument against it was given up (and this after having been so frequently discussed), should be met by a motion for the adjournment of the House.
The Lord Mayortrusted his hon. Friend would persevere in his motion for adjournment. He quite agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had moved the amendment on the second reading, that the Reform Bill should be considered as a measure of amnesty. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. Brotherton) should be impartial in his moving for adjournment.
Mr. Patrick Stewartsaid, that if hon. Gentlemen conceived this Bill to be unjust, they should take the proper course for opposing it, and not sanction its defeat by a side-wind, such as the present motion for adjournment.
Mr. Brothertondid not consider himself liable to the charge of partiality which had been imputed to him. He had made it an invariable practice to move the adjournment of the House when new business was brought forward after twelve o'clock, but in the present case he considered himself relieved from the necessity of so doing by the fact that the Bill had been submitted for second reading before twelve o'clock.
Mr. Lawdid not consider the inference a fair one from his motion for adjournment, that those who sat on his side of the House were unwilling to have this Bill passed. The object of his motion was to prevent business of such importance being discussed at so late an hour. He should persist in his motion.
The House divided on the adjournment, Ayes 4; Noes 55: Majority 51.
The House afterwards divided on Captain Chetwynd's amendment: Ayes 6; Noes 53: Majority 47.
Bill read a second time.

MINITES.
Petitions presented. By Lord HATHERTON from Birmingham; and by the Marquess of WESTMINSTER, from Chester, for Poor-Laws to Ireland.—By Lord WYNFORD, from several Places, for Relief to the Agricultural Interest—By Lords ELLUNBOROUGH and ASH BURTON— from several Places, for Alterations in the Ecclesiastical Courts' Consolidating Bill.—By Lord ASHBURTON, from Thetford, for extending the time appointed for the payment of Loans borrowed under the Poor-Law Amendment Act for the Building of Workhouses.—By Lord VERNON—, from Derby; and Lord FOLEY, from Worcester, for Relief to the Dlsseulers.—By the Duke of NEWCASTLE, from East Retford, against the Reduced Duty on Spirits made in Ireland,—By the Marquess of WESTMINSTER, from Llandillo, for an easier Method of recovering Small Debts.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
Lord Teynhamregretted being obliged, under any circumstances, to take up a moment of their Lordships' time upon a matter relating personally to so insignificant a person, as himself, and the more especially when the object he had in view was his own defence; but as he felt that his allowing himself to be prevented by this regret from calling to their attention a breach of privilege, to which he had been subjected, he should not be doing his duty, either to his own honour or their Lordships' dignity, he had to trust, that he might stand ex-

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cused for doing so for a very few minutes. Upon the discussion of the other evening, with reference to the conduct of the Brighton Magistrates, a noble Viscount was made to appear in one of the morning papers as having made a most personal and derogatory attack upon him. He knew not whether the noble Viscount to whom he alluded was now in his place or not, nor did he care whether he was or not. [The Earl of Shaftesbury: Wait till he comes.] He should not. It was quite immaterial to him whether the noble Viscount was present or not. The noble Viscount, forgetful of many kindnesses done by him to his family, had made upon him, as it appeared in the report to which he alluded, a most unwarrantable, gross, and unfounded attack, and he would be failing in the duty he owed to their Lordships individually, as well as to the respect he entertained for their privileges, if he did not formally bring it under their notice. His complaint was a breach of the privileges of the House committed by the Morning Post newspaper. That paper, notorious alone for the falsehood of every statement it put forth, had published a version of the noble Viscount's speech upon the discussion of the other evening, not only totally different from what he believed the noble Viscount had said, but in every word varying from the reports which appeared in the other morning papers. He knew well—
The Earl of Shaftesburyrose to. He submitted that, in the absence of the noble Viscount to whom the noble Lord alluded, the present complaint ought not to be made.
Lord Teynhamwas again proceeding, when—
The Marquis of Londonderryagain rose to order. The noble Viscount alluded to would, he had no doubt, be in his place presently, and he submitted it would be but decorous to wait for his presence.
Lord Teynhamwould wait the noble Viscount's appearance, on the understanding, that if he did not appear before the rising of the House he (Lord Teynham) should be at liberty to proceed with his complaint. [Shortly afterwards Viscount Strangford entered the House. The noble Lord then continued.] Seeing the noble Viscount in his place, he begged to proceed with the Motion on which he had been interrupted. As a preliminary step, he desired, with the permission of the House, to ask two questions of the noble Viscount. He wished, in the first place, to know if the
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noble Viscount meant to apply to him the observations which had appeared attached to his name in the Morning Post of yesterday, and which he understood had been supplied to that paper by the noble Viscount himself? He had understood the speech of the noble Viscount the other evening in a totally different sense from that conveyed by the report to which he alluded; and he begged, therefore, to ask, whether he was to take as the real sentiments of the noble Viscount his impression of his speech, or that which the report would convey? In other words, did the noble Viscount mean to apply the observations as they appeared in the Morning Post to him? [The noble Lord resumed his seat. A pause of a few minutes ensued.]
Lord Teynham: My Lords, I demand an answer to my question.
Lord Kenyanrose to order. The noble Lord was doing that which was most irregular. Whatever the observations of the noble Viscount might have been, they were made in the presence of the noble Lord: had they been in any degree personal or insulting to the noble Lord's feelings, they should have been at once noticed by him. Certainly a more irregular question could not be put than that of asking a noble Lord to state whether a certain report, which appeared in a newspaper, was true or false. If their Lordships were desirous of preserving the order of their proceedings, they should not sanction the continuance of the present discussion.
Lord Teynhamthought that when the character of a Member of that House was most grossly and wantonly attacked, the utmost latitude should be given in the interpretation of its orders. When the noble Viscount spoke the other evening, he (Lord Teynham) either did not perfectly hear him, or totally misunderstood the nature of his remarks. He thought it was due to him (Lord Teynham) as to their Lordships that he should be permitted to -put his question and that the noble Viscount should be called upon to answer it, [The noble Lord again resumed his seat.]
The Marquess of Westminsterrose to present a petition.
Lord Teynhamasked if he was not to have an answer to his question?
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that the noble Lord's proceeding was quite out of order. It was specifically stated in the regulations of the House, that no noble Lord should require any explanation from another

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except for words spoken in debate; and that even in such case the explanation should be required on the moment.
Lord Teynhamwould have demanded an explanation upon the moment, but that he did not understand the observations of the noble Viscount. They were, in the first place, too diplomatic for his comprehension; and, in the second, he could not have thought that an attack upon his character would have proceeded from such a source.
The Marquess of Salisburyrose to order. Some stop should at once be put to the irregular discussion which had arisen.
Lord Teynham, notwithstanding the call to order, would persevere in putting the question. Once more he asked of the noble Viscount, if the uncalled-for, false, and scandalous speech—["Order, order."]
Viscount Melbournerose.—It was obvious to all, that unless some degree of order was preserved, and some attention paid to the rules of debate, it would be quite impossible for the House to proceed in the discharge of the public duties allotted to it. There could be no question but that the noble Lord was perfectly irregular in referring to observations made during a former debate. The very object of the regulation which had been alluded to was, the prevention of such irregular discussions as that which had been commenced. He, therefore, hoped the noble Lord would see the propriety of withdrawing his question.
Lord Teynham: After the speech of the noble Viscount, he begged to say he felt completely satisfied, and should not trouble the House any further. He regretted that so unworthy a Member of the House as himself should have taken up even so much of their Lordships time upon the matter.
The matter dropped.

ORANGE LODGES.
Upon the Order of the Day for the Motion of the Marquess of Londonderry, relative to Orange Lodges, having being read,
The Earl of Winchilsearose to request of his noble Friend the postponement of the motion until to-morrow evening. He did so in consequence of the continued absence of a noble Earl (the Earl of Roden), who was extremely anxious to be present upon the debate, and who was expected to arrive early to-morrow.
The Marquess of Londonderryfelt considerably embarrassed by the request of his noble Friend, whom he was very anxious to oblige; but being placed in a very
1174
awkward position, it would be with great regret that he consented to the postponement of the motion. When he first gave notice of his intention of bringing under their Lordships' consideration the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons upon Orange Lodges, he did so solely with the view of refuting the strong personal allusions which had been made upon his conduct in connexion with that subject; and feeling naturally most anxious to get rid of the pain which those dark and cunning insinuations had given him, he should regret that even twenty-four hours more should pass over without his having an opportunity to call their Lordships' attention to the subject. He thought it would be very practicable, without entering upon the general subject of Orange Lodges, at once to proceed with his contradiction of the allegations made in the other House; and therefore, unless it was the opinion of their Lordships generally, that he ought to wait, he would beg to make his statement, reserving, however, all discussion on the general question to a future occasion. A considerable time had now elapsed since he first gave notice of the motion, and he therefore thought he should not be guilty of any disrespect to the noble Earl if he proceeded. He was, however, in the hands of the House, and would bow to their decision.
The Earl of Winchilseaobserved that he had not held any communication with the noble Earl to whom he alluded, and that he only sought for the postponement upon the ground that the intimate connexion existing between the noble Earl who was absent (Earl of Roden), and the institutions in question, would enable him to undertake their defence with more knowledge of the subject than any then present.
The Duke of Cumberlandwas most anxious the present discussion should take place as soon as possible; but what had fallen from the noble Earl (Earl of Winchilsea), and taking into consideration the connexion which had subsisted between the noble Earl (Earl of Roden) and the late constitutional and loyal associations, called the Orange Lodges of Ireland, he thought it would be better that his noble Friend should wait until he was present.
The Marquess of Londonderrythought it but right to observe, that when he first gave notice of his motion, he distinctly stated that his only reason- for not proceeding with it immediately, was the noble Earl in question's absence. He certainly

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expected that ere this, the noble Earl would have managed to have been In his place. He could not, he regretted, give way to an individual request, but should the House be in favour of a postponement, he should at once bow to it.
Viscount Melbournethought, that if the noble Earl was to be in his place to-morrow it might be better to postpone the motion. If any attack had been made on the noble Marquess in another place, (and he was ignorant of any such attack) surely, it could make little matter whether it was answered then or twenty-fours hence.
The Marquess of Londonderry: in order to prevent the impossibility of another postponement, in consequence of his absence, he would at once name Monday next for his motion.
Motion postponed till Monday.