Sitting of 8 July 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Convictions; Gold and Silver Plate (Scotland); Constabulary Act Amendment (Ireland).—Read a first time:—Richmond Penitentiary (Ireland); Corporate Property (Ireland); Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues; and Post-Horse Duties.
Petitions presented. By Mr. WAKLEY, from Portwood, Manchester, against Factories' Act Amendment Bill; and for a Ten Hours' Bill; and from the Medical Profession, Abingdon, Suffolk; and from Coroners of Middlesex and Greenwich, for Medical Witnesses' Bill; and from Handloom Weavers, Sanquhar, for a Board of Trade to Regulate their Wages.—By Mr. BRADY, from Drumbo, for Abolition of Tithes (Ireland); and for Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. JOHN PARKER, from Dissenters of Sheffield, for Abolition of Church Rates.— By Mr. H. MARSLAND, from Stockport, for Equalization of Duties on East and West India Produce.—By Mr. R. WALLACE, from Kilryth, for Extending the Franchise to all Householders; and from Stirling, for Alteration of Municipal Corporations' (Scotland) Bill.—By Lord OSSUL-STON, from various Places, for Benefit Building Societies' Bill.—By several HON. MEMBERS, from various Places, praying the House to Adhere to the Provisions of the Irish Municipal Corporations' Bill as originally passed by them.

GUARDIANSHIP OF THE THAMES.
Mr. Angersteinhaving moved the third reading of the Greenwich Pier Bill, proposed the insertion of a clause by way of rider.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, he must object to the clause. It went to take away altogether the jurisdiction of the Lord Mayor as conservator of the Thames. It was now more than sixty years since the Admiralty attempted, but in vain, to dispute that jurisdiction, and to set aside the rights of the Corporation of London in that respect. The effort should not now be repeated by smuggling a clause like this into a private bill. The effect of the introduction of such a clause into the Bill would be to drive the Corporation of London, very unwillingly, to oppose the Bill in the Lords, and they were sure to meet with success there, as justice was always done them in the other House, whenever they went there on points of right and law. The clause should be withdrawn or postponed. It was a matter of just complaint that no notice had been given of such a clause, and that it was never proposed in the Committee. It was only a few minutes ago

9
that it had been put into his hands. It provided that such and such things should not be done in the river without the leave of the Admiralty, while the fact was the Admiralty had no authority there. He should be very sorry that the people of Greenwich should not have their pier, for the City of London was most anxious to encourage such an undertaking, but they certainly would lose the Bill in the Lords if this clause should be inserted in it.
Mr. C. Woodsaid, that he understood the hon. Alderman's objections to the clause to be, that it interfered with the rights of the Corporation of London as conservators of the river. It should be recollected, however, that it was the right of the Crown and of the Admiralty to interfere with all navigable waters. In the case of the Gravesend Pier Bill, the power possessed by the Admiralty was granted; he thought it was wrong to grant it; but no one disputed the right to grant it. He was sure that the hon. Alderman would not contend that the right of the City of London could override that of the Admiralty.
Mr. Alderman Wood: It had done so on several former occasions. The Admiralty of course had no desire to impede the progress of the Bill; but they could not allow the navigation of the river, in which they were interested, to be interfered with without their permission. The present clause, therefore, was proposed to be inserted, empowering the parties to build the pier in a way that should be approved of by the Admiralty.
Mr. G. F. Youngsaid, that a saving clause preserving all the rights possessed by the Admiralty with regard to the navigation of the river might be inserted, but where there was a question of conflicting jurisdiction, it should not be attempted to be settled in this manner in a private Bill. There was at present a Committee sitting on the port of London, before whom the whole question of jurisdiction would come, or had indeed already come, and that Committee would shortly report its opinion whether the river should remain under its present regulations, or be subjected to some other form of Government.
Bill postponed.

MEETING AT NOON.
Mr. Wallacebegged leave to move without making any remarks, that the House do meet at twelve o'clock on Monday to go into Committee on the Poole Corporation Bill.
Lord Granville Somersetsaid, that such a sitting would be very inconvenient, and would require strong reasons to induce the House to adopt it. The hon. Member had offered no reasons whatever for the Motion, which he would certainly oppose.
Mr. Poulterwould support the motion. It would be impossible to do justice to the Bill—indeed it would be impossible to pass it this Session, unless they got a morning sitting for its discussion. The measure was one that interested all the Corporations in England, and it went to remedy a great national abuse.
Mr. Williams Wynnwould not upon that occasion go into the merits of the Poole Corporation Bill, but when the hon. Gentleman said, that it was a Bill that concerned every Corporation in England, he must be permitted to reply that that was the very objection urged by the opponents of the measure against it. They said, and he thought justly, "Why not make this a general measure—why not apply the remedy to all cases, instead of bringing forward a local Bill of this kind?" On the contrary, the hon. Member for Shaftsbury resisted every attempt made on the Opposition side of the House to convert the Bill into a general measure. Everything, in fact, was rejected that did not tend to supersede the decision of a court of law, which it was attempted in the first instance to forestall, and which now it was attempted, if necessary, to overturn. The question now was, whether there was any good reason why this Bill should not take its course like all other business before the House. Why should this merely local Bill supersede all the important local and public business that was going on in the Committees of that House? Committees could not sit when the House was sitting. To himself and to other Members of Parliament it might make no difference if the House sat from twelve o'clock until midnight; but it would be a matter of great moment, and a source of great inconvenience, to the various parties in attendance on Committees, who would be kept in town in consequence. Nothing would be gained, while great inconvenience would be occasioned by taking the discussion of public business at twelve o'clock. Members of that House must take food and have sleep like other persons. If the business of the House was to begin at twelve o'clock, and go on till four, and if public business was to recommence at half-past four o'clock, it would be neces-

11
sary for them to appoint a Committee of Supply for the purpose of procuring dinners to be supplied to Members on the spot at a certain rate. Some time must be allowed to Members for taking food and for other business which every individual must have to perform. The sure consequence of an attempt like this, to force more business on the House than it could get through, would be, that the business would be done in thin Houses, and without due attention and consideration; that improper measures would be carried through, and that measures quite proper in themselves would be passed in an imperfect state, without having undergone that deliberation and discussion which should have been devoted to them. He certainly would give his most decided opposition to the proposition. The noble Lord (Lord John Russell) might undoubtedly allow the Bill to have precedence of the orders of the day that evening, but he (Mr. Wynn) did not think that such important measures as the Church of Ireland Bill, the Stamp Duties Bill, and various other Bills, should he postponed for that purpose.
Lord John Russellwas most anxious to consult the convenience of the House, and he therefore should not oppose the motion, if it was the wish of the House it should be carried. At the same time he must state that it was his own opinion it was not advisable for the House to meet on Monday morning. If the House sat at twelve o'clock on that day, three or four important Committees must suspend their sittings. That appeared to him a paramount objection to the morning sitting. The two first clauses of this Bill had already met with great opposition, and if the House should sit on Monday morning, the result would be that the whole time would be occupied with the discussion of the second clause, without making any advance in the progress of the Bill.
Mr. Ewartwas favourable to morning sittings. Discussions were then carried on with greater sobriety. They should remember that the whole of the Poor-law Bill was carried through Committee at morning sittings.
Mr. Heathcoatesaid, that the Agricultural Committee would re-assemble tomorrow to make their report, and that it would not be finished for some days. He would protest, therefore, against the suspension of the sitting of that Committee on Monday by an early sitting of the House.
Mr. Mackworth Praedwas convinced that the law-officers of the Crown, especially the Solicitor-General, ought to be present at the discussion of this Bill, and it would be impossible for them to attend a morning sitting.
Mr. Wallace: under the circumstances would withdraw his motion, and endeavour on another day to obtain a morning sitting for the discussion of the Bill.
Motion withdrawn.

DUTY ON WOOL IN FRANCE.
Mr. Heathcotewished to ask his right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, a question relating to a subject of great interest to the agricultural and manufacturing community. His right hon. Friend was aware that there was a great exportation of English Wool to France. Last year it amounted to 5,000,000lbs. The state of the Trade, nevertheless, between France and this country had been in a most unsatisfactory condition, for while we took their wool at a merely nominal duty, the duty imposed on our wool in France was almost a prohibitory one. He was given to understand, however, that France had lately made a reduction in the duty, and he hoped that his right hon. Friend would confirm that statement.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that in the autumn of last year he had stated that he had some hopes France would make a reduction in the duty, and he was now happy to be enabled to state that those hopes had been realized. In consequence of representations made by the Government of this country to France, the French Government had acceded to a reduction of the duty, and that reduction had since been confirmed by an ordinance.

FEMALE EMIGRATION.
Mr. Charles Lushingtonbegged to know from the hon. Baronet, the Under Secretary of the Colonies, whether the Committee for the promotion of Female Emigration to Australia had been acting under the sanction of Government? That Committee had sent out twelve vessels, containing about 1,500 single females, all of which had safely arrived. The last two, containing 600 females, had reached their destination without the occurrence of a single death. He was, therefore, desirous of knowing whether the Government were satisfied

13
with the proceedings of this Committee, or whether the Colonial Government of Australia had reported to the Home Government their approbation of the proceedings of the said Committee in that colony. He would be glad if the hon. Baronet would explain the exact nature of their proceedings.
Sir George Greyhad no difficulty in stating, that the Committee to which the hon. Gentleman had adverted, and of which he was an active Member, had rendered most efficient assistance in promoting the objects of female emigration to Australia. The hon. Member for Berkshire had alluded, the other evening, to a placard, which he (Sir G. Grey) had not then seen, but which he had since learned had emanated from that Committee. He then stated it was a voluntary committee of gentlemen, who gave their time gratuitously for the promotion of a laudable and useful object, and he had now to say, in addition, that that committee had acted under regulations which were sanctioned by Government—regulations which he believed had been made after much deliberation, and with a view to render their object as efficient as possible. With regard to the approbation of the Colonial Government, he had only to refer the hon. Gentleman to the paper containing a Report of the arrival of the ships, and the location of the emigrants after their arrival.

ESTABLISHED CHURCH BILL.
Lord John Russellsaid, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, he rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to carry into effect the recommendations contained in the Fourth Report of the Commissioners of Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues. He wished, before he formally submitted his motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee, to give, as briefly as he could, a general view of the nature of the measures which were before the House respecting the Established Church. Anxious as he had always been that measures should be taken to correct any defects that might exist in the Established Church, he had always been likewise anxious that every necessary reform in the Church should take place with the goodwill and assent, both of the prelates who were the heads of that Church, and of the great body of the clergy of the Establishment. It was, therefore, with great satisfaction that he had seen the appoint-
14
ment by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, when he was at the head of his Majesty's Councils, of a Commission, including several of the Archbishops and Bishops, and several lay persons, as well as persons holding high situations in the Government. That Commission had been succeeded by another, containing exactly the same persons, with the exception of those holding official situations, who being no longer in his Majesty's service, were replaced by their successors in the different departments of the Government; but with respect to the first and the other Reports of the Commission, those who had now the honour to be his Majesty's servants had been entirely agreed in the framing and promotion of the measures recommended. He hoped likewise to find that the right hon. Baronet who proposed the formation of the original Commission, and was himself a member of it, would not withhold his concurrence from the present motion. Should the right hon. Gentleman not withhold it, Ministers would then be armed with the authority of many of the heads of the Established Church, carrying with them the greater proportion of the clergy, and the leaders of different parties in Parliament, in favour of a plan of temperate, but, he trusted, effectual reform of the Church. He could not forbear to add, because he felt it his duty to state it, that from the first moment he had entered his service, his Majesty had shown the greatest anxiety for the adoption of such measures as might be recommended by the Commission without reference to any patronage or advantage belonging to the Crown, if the sacrifice of that could promote the object, in which his Majesty took deep interest, the welfare and efficiency of the Established Church. He had stated these things, because much as he valued the cause of reform, in general, even such a reform as might be proposed and carried in spite of opposition, he still thought it would be a great additional benefit that any measure of reform should receive the approbation of various parties—that it should be sanctioned by the heads both of the State and of the Church, and be carried into effect without that reluctance and without that feeling of irritation which were consequent, and naturally consequent, on plans of reform which met with objection and resistance before they were sanctioned by Parliament. Having stated thus much respecting the Com-

15
mission, he would now enter into some of the objects which were considered by the Commission, both with reference to the efficiency of the Church Establishment and with respect to the opinion of the country regarding its defects. He trusted that the importance of the subject would lead the House to give it the consideration due to that importance, although it might not be surrounded by that excitement and interest produced by measures of a mere party character, and which met with mere party opposition. One of the first complaints usually made against the Church Establishment was the inequality of its bishoprics, both with respect to duty and revenue. As to duty, the territorial division was most unequal, and the number of benefices also varied in a very great degree. Lincoln had 1,234 benefices, and Norwich 1,021 benefices, while Bangor had only 124, and Ely 149 benefices but the inequality was still more obvious as regarded the amount of revenue. The income of Canterbury was 18,090 l., Durham 19,480 l., London 13,890 l. while the income of Llandaff was 1,170 l., Oxford 1,600 l., and of Rochester 1,450 l. The evils of this glaring difference of income were many and obvious. One of them was, it led to the taking, by the poorer sees, of dignities and benefices in commendam—an expedient resorted to by the Crown, in order to afford the occupants a sufficient income to support their rank in the Church. This, of itself was a real evil; and another (to which attention was formerly much turned, and whether it was or was not a positive evil, it certainly had a great weight in public opinion) was, it gave rise to a suspicion, and possibly accusation against those who held the poorer bishoprics. It was said, and naturally said, by those who had not the means of contradiction, that those prelates who were placed in the poorer bishoprics of 1,600 l. or 2,000 l. a-year, would be naturally desirous to be translated to sees of higher value, and that thereby, in the first place, their attention was diverted from the care of the see they held, that they did not pay that regard to it which they would have paid had they been fixed in it for life; and in the next place, that the political conduct of the Bishop was affected by his expectant situation. He thought that, in both these respects, the plan of the Commission afforded a remedy, by giving to some sees a larger amount of revenue in proportion to the importance of the duties, and to the expenses to which the
16
occupants might be exposed. With regard to benefices, the numbers would hereafter be much more nearly equalised by the new arrangement. The number retained by Norwich would still be large, viz. 809 benefices; but in other cases they would be reduced much nearer to equality than formerly. As to revenue also, the Bishops would be placed in future much more upon a level, and each would be sufficiently provided for, that it would not be necessary to give to any see dignities or benefices in commendam excepting such as heretofore had been customably and permanently annexed. The proposal of the Commission was, that nine sees should be reduced from 102,860 l. to 70,700 l. leaving an excess of 32,160 l. One see was to be raised from 4,220 l. to 5,000 l. This was the united see of Gloucester and Bristol. Twelve sees were to be raised to 4,500 l. each, or in the whole from 33,560 l. to 54,000 l. The we new sees of Ripon and Lancaster were fixed at 4,500 l. each, or 9,000 l. together, and two remained unaltered at 9,700 l. The only exceptions to the general average of England were Canterbury, York, and London, where the duties were necessarily heavy; and Durham and Winchester, which required a greater expenditure than other bishoprics. Thus these five archbishoprics and bishoprics would remain objects of translation; and he did not think that any real benefit would result from the proposal of an hon. Gentleman, who had given notice of a motion to the effect that no translations should be permitted. In the first place, there could be only few bishops who could indulge the hope or expectation of translation. The objection hitherto urged, that the occupants of inferior sees continually looked for better bishoprics, was obviated by the small difference between 4,500 l. a-year, and 5,000 l. a-year. A bishop who had taken possession of his see, who had probably expended a considerable sum upon his establishment, and who had 4,500 l. a-year, would not be willing to quit his residence and connexions for an advance in his income of only 500 l. or 700 l. a-year. It remained to be considered whether it would be for the benefit of the Church that with respect to the archbishoprics and larger bishoprics the Crown should have no power of translation. The fact of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, and the Bishop of London, both occupying seats on the bench, and having onerous duties to perform, and

17
expensive establishments to keep up, would prevent their situations from being objects of desire to the great majority of the Bishops. A proposal to limit the prerogative of the Crown, would be so injurious that he could not persuade himself that the House would support the plan of the hon. Member, as an amendment to that proposed by the Commissioners. He felt that the plan of the Commissioners, as far as could be rationally expected, was likely to put an end to translation. It was calculated to put an end generally to the existing temptation for Bishops to neglect their dioceses, in the hope of translation, and those filling the inferior bishoprics would be more likely to act independently of political parties, by whom they might otherwise be influenced, for the sake of some preferment. At the same time this plan did not interfere with the prerogative of the Crown. The Crown would still have the power to choose, if it thought proper, a Bishop of an inferior See for full archiepiscopal dignities. He had stated what would be the result with respect to particular bishoprics. There would be a certain number of them, the income of which would be raised to 4,500 l. per annum. It seemed to have been first in the contemplation of the Commissioners, and the first Report bore out that view of the subject, to take away some of the revenues of the bishoprics, as the impropriate tithes; and, where it was thought advisable, to apply a part of those revenues to the dioceses from which they were taken, and to make up the deficiency from other sources. The Commissioners, however, after much consideration, came to be of opinion, that they had no more right to interfere with these tithes than with private property, and that it would be better not to make any disturbance of their revenues—not to take away with one hand for the purpose of adding with the other. He thought the Commissioners had come to a wise opinion upon that subject, because if they had taken away those revenues with a view of separating them, or giving them to particular local districts, the consequence would have been that they would have been obliged, from other sources, to seek an increase of revenue; and while, on the one hand, they would be acting for the benefit of certain local interests, and supplying the wants of religious instruction in these places, they would, on the other hand, be taking away
18
revenues which would otherwise have supplied the local wants of other places equally requiring them. Therefore it was thought better to lake the whole of this revenue, which amounted to about 150,000 l., and make the arrangement now proposed. The sum required to carry that regulation into effect would be 148,400 l., and taking that from the whole sum of 150,340 l., an excess of 1,940 l. would be left; which would be useful to supply any small deficiencies. Dividing the present income of 150,000 l. amongst the Archbishops and Bishops, it would leave the Archbishop of Canterbury, as appeared from the table* he was reading, 15,000 l.; the Archbishop of York, 10,000 l.; the Bishop of London, 10,000 l.; of Durham, 8,000 l.; of Winchester, 7,000 l.; and the various other Bishops, from 5,500 l., the
* The following is the Table referred to by the noble Lord in his speech:—

Proposed ARRANGEMENT of EPISCOPAL INCOMES according to third REPORT—Propositions 41 and 42.

PROPOSITION 41.

Estimated Income.

Proposed future Income.

Excess.

1. Canterbury

18,090

15,000

3,090

York

10,270

10,000

270

London

13,890

10,000

3,890

Durham

19,480

8,000

11,480

Winchester

10,370

7,000

3,370

Ely

9,400

5,500

3,900

Worcester

6,500

5,000

1,500

Bath and Wells

5,550

5,000

550

St. Asaph

5,500

5,200

4,110

Bangor

3,810

£102,860

£70,700

£32,160

Deficiency.

2. Bristol

2,090

5,000

780

Gloucester

2,130

PROPOSITION 42.

3. Carlisle

3,050

4,500

1,450

Chester

2,900

4,500

1,600

Chichester

3,610

4,500

890

St. David's

2,800

4,500

1,700

Exeter

2,790

4,500

1,710

Hereford

2,650

4,500

1,850

Litchfield

4,350

4,500

150

Lincoln

3,810

4,500

690

Llandaff

1,170

4,500

3,330

Oxford

1,600

4,500

2,900

Peterborough

3,380

4,500

1,120

Rochester

1,450

4,500

3,050

£33,560

£54,000

£20,440

4. Manchester

4,500

4,500

Ripon

4,500

4,500

5. Norwich

4,700

4,700

Unaltered

Salisbury

5,000

5,000

SUMMARY.

From

To

Excess.

Defic.

1. Nine Sees to be reduced

£102,800

70,700

32,160

2. One See to be raised

4,220

5,000

780

3. Twelve Sees to be raised to £4,500 each

33,560

54,000

20,440

4. Two new Sees at the same

9,000

9,000

5. Two unaltered

9,700

9,700

£150,340

148,400

32,160

30,220

148,400

30,220

£1,940

£1,940

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highest, to 4,500 l., the lowest amount of their incomes. He thought that by this arrangement he should provide for these bishoprics in a manner that could not be said to exhibit either extravagance or any undue proportion. He knew it might be stated, that the revenues of an Archbishop of Canterbury, or a Bishop of London, should not be as high as he had proposed it. But he must say, he thought the comparison that had been made as between an Archbishop of Canterbury or a Bishop of London, and persons holding civil and judicial offices, was obviously not a just comparison. Persons filling judicial or civil offices, incurred certain expenses connected with the duties of their office, but there the demand upon their salaries ended. With respect to an Archbishop or Bishop, he was placed, according to the constitution of the Church—and that constitution he did not wish to alter—among persons having a large revenue derived from the property of the country, He was placed in a certain house which required a certain establishment to be maintained, and that there should be observed certain duties of hospitality; he was placed in a situation in which even more was required from him, than from men of the highest rank and great landed property, on account of charity, a large expense being incurred. In all these respects, his situation was totally different from that of a Chief Justice of the King's Bench, or a First Lord of the Treasury, who received an official salary, out of which he paid the expenses consequent on the performance of the duties of his office, and nothing else. It was not the plan of the Church of England, nor did he wish it to be, that its Ministers should be considered mere functionaries, receiving certain stipends from the state, and having nothing but their bare duty to perform in return. Nor did he propose by the present Bill to alter the plan in that respect; and unless Parliament did alter it, they could make no fair comparison between the situation of a Bishop at the head of the Church, and the situation of those holding official stations and receiving stipulated salaries. He came next, after the duties and revenues of the Bishops, to consider the duties and revenues of the cathedral deans and chapters. Several of these dignities were held by Bishops, and the Commissioners thought that objectionable; they thought it took the Bishops away from the performance of the duties of their sees; and they were of opinion
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also, that the duties of the deans and chapters ought to be substantially performed by persons who should hold the office for that purpose. The Commissioners were further of opinion, that it was not necessary to have so large an establishment as now existed, for the performance of that description of duty. In many of the chapters there were sinecure dignities, the holders of which were not obliged to reside, nor were they called on to perform any service whatever; in some also exceeding by eight or ten, the number in other chapters. At the same time there was in such districts a great want of the means of spiritual instruction. It seemed to the Commissioners, therefore, whatever abstract opinion they might entertain with respect to the utility of such dignities being maintained as rewards for learning and piety in the Church, that they might, with a due regard to the efficiency of the Church, make a considerable reduction in the cathedral deans and chapters. But acting on the principle he had explained of removing the defects and abuses of the Church, and not altering the general form and principles of the establishment, they did not entertain the proposition of doing away with these cathedral dignities altogether. Some Church Reformers had made that proposition, but it did not appear to the Commissioners, nor did it appear to him, that it would be wise to destroy the cathedral establishments. The Commissioners were of opinion, after mature deliberation, that three or four canons were as small a number as would be required by the cathedral duties, but at the same time they had left neither the whole income of these different canons to be appropriated for learned leisure, nor had they wholly destroyed the reward for literary eminence which such situations might properly confer. Their opinion with regard to many of the cathedrals was, that of the canons, some one or more might well perform a duty of great importance to the Church, but which had not hitherto received an adequate remuneration, viz. the duty of Archdeacon. There was no duty which ought to be more adequately remunerated, than that of the archdeacon, and it appeared that there was no better way of obtaining that object, than by providing that one or more of the canons, as occasion might arise, should be destined for the performance of that duty. Much depended on the archdeacons; the bishop derived from them

21
his knowledge of his diocese, and by their superintendence, the churches were kept in that state of repair which was necessary for the performance of divine service. There were other cases in which it was not thought expedient that these canonries should remain; he alluded to those in which the number was unusually large, and in which they were situated in large parishes, where there was no adequate provision for the religious instruction of the people. It was thought, that canonries might, in some instances, be safely appropriated to the performance of those duties; and while a sufficient revenue would be afforded to them, there would be assigned to them, an important parochial duty. Inasmuch, then, as there would be three or four canons left to every cathedral, it could not be said, that the establishment would have withdrawn from it—that being ground which had been frequently com-batted, and he was not one who thought it ought to be surrendered ground—the means of providing for the wants of men of distinguished learning and abilities. There were men to whom one of those canonries, connected with much business and labour, would not be suited, because those most distinguished for learning were frequently not the best men of business, or the best adapted for large and populous parishes. There would be a certain number, then, but it would be a small number of canonries left, in which the only service to be performed would be the cathedral service; and which would not be connected with any other duties. The result of this change with respect to the cathedrals would be, to procure a very large sum for the purposes of parishes which wanted spiritual care, and which had been very much neglected. He would not go into the whole plan of the Commissioners, but he would state the circumstances of some of the parishes in which there was a large population, the spiritual wants of which were inadequately supplied. In the first place, the corporate incomes of the suppressed canonries would be 64,699 l.; in the second place, the separate estates of minor canons on the old foundation, would be 17,194 l.; in the third place, the estates of the deans and canons of Durham and Ely, 11,777 l.; then the separate administrations and sinecure prebends, 26,830 l.—making, in the whole, a sum of 120,494 l.; to which was to be added a sum of 8,894 l., to be
22
derived from sinecure rectories—amounting, altogether, to 129,388 l. When the sum left for deans and canons was taken away, there would remain a sum, which, as it should fall in, it was proposed should be applied to the wants of populous parishes, being as nearly as possible, 130,000 l.;* and with regard to the application of this sum, regard would be had, in the first place, to the wants and circumstances of the different parishes, belonging to the dioceses from which those revenues might be derived; that was to say, when any sum arising from a prebend shall fall in, and be entirely at the disposal of the Commissioners, due regard should be had to the wants and circumstances of the parish or parishes affording the revenues. In the dioceses of London, Chester, York, Litchfield and Coventry, there were 108 parishes, containing a population of 2,590,000 persons, and there was Church-room for 276,000 only, being only one-ninth of the population. Taking, then, the calculation of the Commissioners—for he would not enter into the question whether this were a right basis of calculation or not—that church-room ought to be provided for at least one-third,—that is 863,333,—there would be still a deficiency of church-room for 587,333 persons. He did not go into the question whether they should provide church accommodation for that exact proportion or not, but he mentioned the statements to show that there were parishes immensely populous, for which no adequate supply of instruction, according to the doctrines of the Church of England had yet been made.
* The noble Lord referred in the text to the following Table,

Estimated amount of the property and revenues referred to in proposition 56th of the 4th report, from each source respectively.

1. Corporate Incomes of all the suppressed Residentiary Canonries, propositions, 1, 2, 15 (excepting at Chester and Litchfield proposition 16, and in the Welch Cathedrals Propositions 21, 24, 25)

£64,699

2. Separate Estates of all Deans and Canons on the old foundation, proposition 17 (excepting where wholly or in part specially appropriated proposition 18, 31)

17,194

3. Separate Estates of Deans and Canons of

Durham

11,510, and

11,770

Ely

260

(But see Proposition 36.)

4.Separate Endowments of all sinecure prebends and offices, proposition 30 (excepting those annexed to bishoprics.—3d Report, proposition 50, and those specially appropriated.—4th Report, propositions 22, 26, 31)

26,831

120,494

5.Sinecure Rectories.—Proposition 44

8,894

£129,383

23
The following is the account which the noble Lord quoted:

Parishes.

Population.

Church-rm.

London

4

166,000

8,200

21

739,000

66,155

9

232,000

27,327

Chester

38

816,000

97,700

York

20

402,000

48,000

Litchfield & Coventry

16

235,000

29,000

108

2,590,000

276,382

One-ninth.

He would exemplify this in another manner, not with respect to the want of church-room, but with regard to the incomes of the clergy in several instances, as they were stated in the returns of the Commissioners, and as they appeared in the pages of their Report.—In the diocese of Chester there was a parish, Motram in Londendale, with a population of 15,536, and the net income of the clergyman was only 219 l.; Neeton, in Manchester, was a perpetual curacy, with a population of 11,821, the net income of the curate being 155 l. In Oldham, the population was 32,381, the net income of the clergyman, 191 l.. In Walton-on-the-Hill there were 46,642 persons, and the income of the clergyman is 294 l., of which 100 l. is paid to a curate. In Kendal, there was a population of 11,840, the net income of the clergyman being 285 l.; and in another parish, Heton Norris, a perpetual curacy, the population

These statements were principally taken from the following return to which his Lordship referred:

CHESTER DIOCESE.

Parish

Rectory, Vicarage, or Curacy

Patron.

Impropriator.

Population

Net Income.

Stipend to Curate.

£

£

Motram in Londendale

Vicarage

Bishop of Chester

Bishop of Chester

15,536

219

—

Neeton, in Manchester

Perpetual Curacy

Collegiate Church of Manchester

11,821

155

—

Oldham

Rector of Presswich

32,381

191

—

Runcorn

6,360

294

—

Shotwick

Dean and Chapter of Chester

713

88

—

Walton on the Hill

Vicarage endowed with Great Tithes.

46,642

294

100

Winwick

Rectory

88

3,616

—

Whalley

Vicarage

3,660

137

—

Whittle-le-Woods

Perpetual Curacy

2,987

40

—

Wood Plumpton

Perpetual Curacy

1,710

96

—

Lees, in Ashton-under-Lyne

Perpetual Curacy

4,387

131

100

Kendal

Vicarage

11,840

285

90

Heton Norris

Perpetual Curacy

Collegiate Church of Manchester

11,238

116

—

Holt

Perpetual Curacy

Dean and Chapter of Winchester

1,015

101

—

Douglas, in Eccleston

474

70

—

St. Bridget's, Chester

Rectory

766

75

—

24
was 11,288, and the clergyman's income 116 l.* He need not go on; there were many other similar instances to be found in the Reports of the Commissioners. He thought these were sufficient to show that there were cases in which it might be most advantageous to increase the income of the clergyman, and to provide the means of instruction according to the doctrines of the Church of England. He thought further, he was justified from these facts in saying, that though there was the sum of 130,000 l.. proposed to be devoted to the object he had stated, that sum being derived from the cathedral churches, not only must that amount be very soon exhausted, but if it were much larger there would evidently be the means of employing it advantageously in those parishes in which there had grown up an immense population, and in which there was no adequate income for the clergy. What he was now stating, in his opinion, bore very much on the question which had been often mooted in this House and elsewhere, but to which he did not now wish more particularly to allude than to state it; he meant the question as to whether the revenues of the deans and chapters in his country might not be applied to other purposes than those connected with the Church —whether this were not wanted for the Church itself. It appeared to him that this question was settled by the statement

25
He had made, and by the Report of the Commissioners. It was certainly contrary to his opinion, and to the opinion expressed by the Commissioners, that the whole of the revenue of the deans and chapters should be applied as at present; yet such was the deficiency of spiritual instruction in parts of those districts, that they could not, with a due regard to the efficiency of the Church, apply them to other purposes than to supply the spiritual wants of the people. There was another Bill which he would not enter particularly into now, but which formed part of the general scheme—he meant the Bill which had come down from the House of Lords with respect to pluralities and residence. In the Report of the Commissioners were to be found many instances of clergymen who, while there were parishes so inadequately supplied, were holding two or three rectories, and perhaps sinecures amongst them, of the value of 2,800 l. and 3,000 l. and upwards, and allowing very small sums for the performance of the duties to the curates of the parishes to which they belonged. This had been felt, and must be felt, as a great defect and a crying grievance. It had been an object with the Commissioners, as far as possible, to put an end to these grievances, and to this purpose they proposed that residence should be strictly enforced. The Bill required that each clergyman should be resident on his living for nine months in the year; in case of any special exemption a return was to be made to the King in Council, which would afterwards be laid before Parliament, so that any case of undue indulgence would be immediately known. The Bill would also prohibit persons from holding two livings together, except they were within ten miles of each other. That in effect would, he thought, put an end to pluralities altogether. So far as his examination had gone, he considered he was under the mark when he said that nine-tenths of the pluralities at present existing would be put an end to by a provision of that sort. Nor under this Bill would a person holding a living of 500 l. a-year hold another, except under peculiar circumstances. There were some cases in which it might be an advantage for a living poorly endowed, to be held by a clergyman with a large income from another living, if he chose to undertake the poorer one. With respect to the abolition of pluralities, there were some cases of difficulty, such as those in which the livings were so small as not to afford a sufficient remuneration; but he himself
26
did not much apprehend embarrassment here, because in most of those instances there had been curates, the fact being that the living was in itself not so poor, but the greater portion of it was taken by the rectors. With respect to the patronage in the hands of the Crown, he did not entertain the objection to it felt by some. He considered it the means of connecting the State with the Church, and thought it would be a great evil to have a Church totally unconnected with the State. Placing Church patronage in the hands of the Crown afforded the means of uniting the Church with the State, and thus gave an assurance that the Crown would take care of the welfare of the Church on the one hand, and on the other that the Church would not attempt to counteract the general policy of the State; nor did he object to patronage being left in the hands of private individuals. In a country like this persons composing the different classes of society should have their interests, as much as possible, interwoven one with the other. He was further of opinion, that it was advantageous to have a small amount of patronage in the hands of the Bishops, inasmuch as it was the duty of the Bishops to observe and superintend the conduct of the clergy; and one way of enabling them to do so with effect was to give them the power of bestowing rewards, as well as the power of discouraging improper conduct. If a clergyman had conducted satisfactorily the affairs of a small benefice for a great number of years, it might be considered that he had a claim on the Bishop, which would, perhaps, not be attended to so immediately either by the Crown, or by those who possessed private patronage. He considered it right that the Bishops should have the power of attending to cases of this description. With respect to the other classes of preferment in the hands of the deans and chapters, without entering into that question, or throwing blame on any parties, he might say he did not see any particular reason why large numbers should be without the rewards to which they were fairly entitled, while many not only had a stall in one of the cathedrals, but likewise held a benefice. He thought it was fairly proposed by the Commissioners, with a view to augment the livings, that the Bishops in future, in cases where canons did not take the preferment themselves, should have the power of distributing the patronage which had hitherto been in the hands of the dean and chapters. He believed he had now alluded to the principal heads of

27
the scheme proposed by the Church Commissioners. It appeared to him that this was a measure of Reform which, while it was of a temperate character, would cure the evils of which there was abundant reason to complain. If this Bill passed there would exist no longer those immense incomes—there would exist no longer those offensive pluralities—those excessive revenues of the deans and chapters, while there were large districts in which no provision was made for the religious wants of the people. It was his fate, some years ago, to state that, in his opinion, the revenues of the Church of England were not too large, but that they ought to be more equitably distributed. The expression of that opinion brought down upon him the censure of a right reverend Prelate; but he still entertained the same opinion; and he was now supported in his view by the Report of the Commissioners, who declared it to be their opinion that the revenues of the Church might be more equally distributed—distributed in a manner more conducive to the efficiency of the Establishment. In proposing this change, however, they did not propose nor did they think it expedient any more than he did, to diminish the revenues of the Church. He trusted that these Bills would be carried into effect, and he trusted this object would be accomplished without exciting any opposition or any irritation such as similar plans had before excited. He could not conclude without paying the tribute of thanks due to the Archbishop who was at the head of the Commission, and who had shown every disposition to consult public opinion where he thought it just and reasonable. He was persuaded that it was far better to carry into effect a plan in which the high dignitaries of the Church had willingly concurred, and which they had laboriously examined, than it would be for the House to adopt other plans which, whatever merit they might have, would not possess that great, and, in his opinion, supereminent merit, of carrying with it the head of the Church, and the general support of its most valuable and influential friends. His Lordship concluded by moving, that the Chairman leave the Chair.
Mr. Charles Lushingtonsaid, that in proposing the amendment of which he had given notice, he should confine himself, to its specific subject, except when it was indispensable to advert to the noble Lord's observations on the general question. The hon. Member then continued as follows: Sir—Before I had the honour of a seat in Parliament I read a speech of a right hon.
28
Gentleman then, as now, a member of the Administration, in which he stated that he never rose to address the House without trepidation. Now, Sir, if that right hon. Gentleman, possessing high official station, eminent talents, ready eloquence, and the well-earned favour of this House, was influenced by such feelings, what must my sensations of anxiety be, enjoying none of those distinctions, scarcely known to the House except by a few silent though uncompromising votes, labouring under the disadvantage of obvious, but to my affection, not ungrateful contrast, and placed in direct collision with the leader of that party with which I usually act, and whose measures as a Minister have, with little deduction, received my support and engaged my cordial admiration? An imperative sense of duty, however, impels me to undertake a task which I fear I shall very inadequately perform, and in the execution of which, therefore, I earnestly seek the indulgence of the House. Neither must I exclude from the catalogue of my difficulties the consciousness that imminent over my head hangs the overflowing indignation of the hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford; but I console myself with the reflection, that in his strictures there is no gall, and that what he considers to be inconsequent and foolish, is marked by no undue severity of reprobation. At all events he will "judge righteous judgment," and will at least do justice to the integrity of my motives. Undeterred however, Sir, by these discouragements, I venture to express my regret that his Majesty's Commissioners have not thought proper to include in their deliberations the question of abolishing the translation of Bishops from one see to another, because I am conscientiously of opinion that the maintenance of that system is hurtful to the character and interests of the whole body of the clergy, injurious to the efficiency, the purity, and the independence of the Established Church, and destructive of that vital spirit of genuine religion which every sincere Christian must desire to see flourish. When this question was brought forward by the hon. Member for Shoreham, in the year 1833, incidentally in a debate on the Irish Church Reform Bill, he was apprized that that was not a suitable opportunity, and he was referred to the time when a Report on Church Reform should be laid before the House. The proper season for the discussion, therefore, is now arrived. The hon. Member alluded on that occasion to. the condemnation of the practice by one

29
of the ancient Councils of the Church, the Council of Sardica, whose language is very explicit. The President then observed, "This pernicious custom must be rooted out; none have been found to pass from a greater bishopric to a less, therefore they are induced by avarice or ambition." The same council excluded translated Bishops from communion. This discipline was observed for 900 years, and the first departure of any note was that of Pope Formosus, who was also Bishop of Porto, one of whose successors marked his disapprobation of the practice by digging him out of his grave, and a council held soon after forbade this translation to be made a precedent. I should have observed before that the translation of Bishops had been prohibited also by the Council of Nice. Having adopted its creed, we should not disregard its ban against translations. But, Sir, for this assembly we have greater authority than that of the Councils of Sardica and Nice, or than all of the Church councils that ever were congregated.—I mean the authority of this House. In April 1701, a Bill was introduced into the last Parliament of William 3rd, by Sir John Packing-ton, Member for Worcestershire—a Tory and "an undoubted Churchman"—"for the better preservation of the Protestant religion, and for preventing the translation of Bishops from one see to another." This Bill passed the second reading, so that the principle was affirmed, but it was lost in Committee in consequence of the interpolation of irrelevant matter. And now, Sir, in order to show what the feeling of the clergy of that day was with regard to the proposed measure, I entreat the permission of the House to read two or three passages from a letter to, a clergyman in the country from a dignified clergyman in London. It was published in the year 1701, and the copy which I hold in my hand is perhaps the only one extant. After exposing the interpolated clause, he remarks,
"When Bishops are settled for life upon their bishoprics, they will very probably mind their cures better than otherwise they can be expected to do. While a man lives in restless expectation of an elder brother's death, it will be one of his chiefest concerns to keep up and enlarge, if he can, his interests at Court, and with all great persons related thereto. He must be very courteous and easy in his present see, and mighty tender in his discipline, that he may be sure not to get any ill words from any quarter."
He then states,—
"He must be blind and deaf to the scanda-
30
lous conduct of the clergy, lest the punished should study revenge, and by one means or other throw in a rub at the vacancy; and why should he trouble himself and others with inquiring into matters which he is not likely (or at least hopes not) to stay there long enough to see reformed? He's to keep this flock but till yonder old man goes off the hill; and therefore if there be any giddy or scabbed sheep amongst them, he'll e'en leave them to be dressed by the next comer, and keep his own fingers out of the tar-pot."
I beg the House to allow me to read one more extract.
"The intolerable spoil which is often made upon the temporalities of the poorer bishoprics by their transient incumbents you have well remarked, and I wish it could not justly be farther observed, that those expectants not content to make more than the best of what they have, do often cast a wishful eye too upon what they are in quest of, and push very hard against the 10th commandment, if not break through it. The expecter is very apt to think the old man lives too long, et pater ante diem patrios inquirit in annos; and then how hard is it for a man to have any good blood in his heart for one who outlives his expectations, and keeps him out of the possession of his wishes! And on the other hand how natural is it for the predecessors to look back with more indignation than charity upon him who thus treads on his heels, and is ready to push him off the stage before he comes to the end of it. Indeed, 'tis pity that Bishops should be thus exercising one another's patience; and yet how often is it so? and how often (if the truth were known) has the honest old gentleman at Winchester been wished in his grave! and what fears be there lest his toughness should outlast the King! But 'tis no matter, he has the proverb, and I hope Providence too, on his side, and I do not despair but he may yet live to pass this Bill against translations."
Such were the sentiments on Episcopal translation entertained by a dignified clergyman of the Church of England, in 1701. I shall presently advert to the opinion of his successors on the subject. Sir, the House will not fail to observe, that on the occasion of the debate to which I have referred, the preservation of the Protestant religion was identified with the abolition of Episcopal translation. But, Sir, I have no apprehension for the stability of the Protestant Church. I reckon that it is based on a foundation of reason and scriptural authority which no violence can shake, no internal dissensions undermine; that its temporal bulwark is the affection of the people of England; and without intending the remotest reflection on other forms of Christianity which I distinctly and solemnly disclaim, I may in full charity declare my

31
persuasion that against the general cause of Protestant truth neither force nor machinations will be suffered to prevail. Nevertheless, I aver that the prosperity of our section Protestant Church, I mean the Church of England, is endangered by the maintenance, among other abuses, of translations, in defiance of the wishes and judgments of the great mass of the people, and a large majority of the clergy themselves. I never spoke to a clergyman respecting the practice who did not deprecate its existence. Dr. Burton, the late Regius Professor of Divinity in the University of Oxford, inquired, "Why is this evil inflicted on the Church?" and he declared that "Lord Henley most justly inveighed against the translation of Bishops, and that he himself had literally not found a clergyman who did not take the same view." Not to multiply instances of Bishops who have refused to be translated, I would just allude to Dr. Wilson, the exemplary Bishop of Sodor and Mau, who would never quit the diocese which his Christian zeal had regenerated and enlightened and we read, in Camden's Remains, of a certain Bishop who had quite a marital attachment to his own see. This is the passage: "John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester, when the King would have translated him from that poor bishopric, he refused, saying he would not forsake his poor little old wife; thinking of the 15th Canon of the Nicene Council, "Matrimonium inter Episcopum et Ecclesiam esse contractum." His successors, however, have not been so constant, and have, according to the above view indulged in ecclesiastical polygamy; for, in a recent instance, a prelate had scarcely gained possession of his poor bride of Rochester, when, in the same year, after a tenure of eighty-two days, he deserted her for the wealthier blandishments of merry Carlisle. The predecessor of the present Bishop of Exeter remained scarcely six months in his diocese before he was translated. I do not mention this with any feeling of disrespect towards the excellent prelate in question, but in illustration of the vice of the system which I desire to denounce, without inculpating individuals. Sir, though there are great and obvious objections, in a social point of view, to the removal of Bishops from the dioceses with which they have become acquainted, and where their local knowledge and intimacy with their flock may render them eminently useful, yet is not the actual separation which is so mischievous as the constant state of expec-
32
tation in which the Bishop lives, the subservience and hypocrisy which it is calculated to engender, and the reproach to which it undeniably exposes the order. The noble Lord said, that the Commissioners having increased the emoluments of the poorer sees, had almost equalised the bishoprics, and therefore translations will not so frequently occur; but much disparity yet prevails, and there are still left several great prizes for which the less opulent Bishops may be supposed to contend. But, Sir, observe the fallacy of the noble Lord's assertion, that the evil of translations will be remedied by the present arrangements. It is diminished in appearance, but Episcopal appetency will be fomented with equal in-tenseness, and the spiritual Barons exposed, as hitherto, to political trial and corruption. Examine the new gradation of emoluments as now revised; it forms a regular episcopal gamut. First come the bishoprics with not less than 4,000 l. nor more than 5,000 l. per annum; then we see

Worcester and Bath

£5,000

St. Asaph and Bangor

5,200

Ely

5,500

Winchester

7,000

Durham

8,000

London

10,000

Archbishopric of York

10,000

Archbishopric of Canterbury

15,000

Here are ten goodly pieces of preferment to be contested by the other Bishops, who receive not less than 4,000 l., and not more than 5,000 l. per annum; so that the Minister of the day has only to intimate to the Bishop of 4,000 l. per annum, "If you vote judiciously you will soon reach the 5,000 l; Ely, Winchester, Durham, and London will then open on your view, and you may shortly expect to mount the archiepiscopal pinnacle." Sir, there is no exaggeration in this statement; for while the Bishops are constituted as at present, they cannot escape from Ministerial influence, much less from the seductive impulse of self-interest, and, what is worse, from that suspicion and contumely which their variable condition is too certain to invite. I repeat that the system encourages hypocrisy in our section of the Church. For instance, if a metropolitan or the holder of a rich see, die, is their much sincere grief among the expectants? No; but they must simulate sorrow—they must mourn for the old prophet and exclaim "Alas! my brother!" with grief on their brow, and satisfaction in their hearts. They bewail the loss of one so beloved and revered in his diocese where he resided, and set an

33
example such as the men of Bristol covet, full four months in the year, "so known, so honoured in the House of Lords," where he attended the remaining eight—and oh! so dead at last. Thus it is: "Periisse Germanicum nulli jactantius mœrent quam qui maxime lœtantur." Sir, it may be asserted that such duplicity prevails in every department of life where competition is awakened. I admit the fact, but our object should be, desiring to shield our clergy from obloquy and temptation, to remove every inducement to the practice of such disgusting disguise from the holy profession to which they belong. But, Sir, the contrary is the case; Ministers find it convenient to have clerical as well as other dependents, and the interests of religion are postponed and superseded. Sir, it is not my purpose to repeat ribald invective, or to give currency and circulation to irreverent animadversions, but in temperate language to direct the attention of the House to painful truths. Three rich sees lately became vacant. What did people say on the occasion? Did they point out any eminently pious men as well fitted to fill the vaant benefices? No; the expression was (and it cannot be denied that it was almost universal), how fortunate the Ministers are to have such a mortality of bishops at such a crisis! "Dr. A. is a staunch Liberal; he will, of course, have Durham." "Dr. B. is to have one of the vacancies," says a politician to his friend. "Is he a good man?" "An excellent man; he is a most accomplished theologian, an exemplary clergyman, and is truly beloved throughout his district. 'When the eye saw.'" "Ay ay, I understand all that; but is he a good man—is he a good Whig—will he vote for the Irish Corporation Bill?" Another individual was pointed out to me as an excellent bishop for a Conservative! Does it not seem, then, that our bishops are created and promoted, not in primary reference to Christian virtue, but to political effect—not with respect to their merits as Ministers of the Gospel, but to their services as obsequious senators Sir, the whole constitution of our hierarchy and Church polity is defective and unsound and demands, not palliatives, but complete renovation; and my great objection to the noble Lord's Bill is, that it retains every vicious practice in the Establishment, under the specious garb of mitigation. Non-residence is blamed and sanctioned; the principle of pluralities is maintained;
34
the evil of translations is little remedied; the extravagant scale of the incomes of the Archbishops and bishops scarcely reduced; and the crying anomaly of the session of bishops in Parliament is left untouched. But, Sir, the appalling shouts of "Question!' uttered on a recent occasion still ring in my ears, and from deference to the House I must shun that point, though my argument is shackled by its relinquishment. It is satisfactory, however, to reflect that this being no party question, its decision will be governed by higher motives than political considerations, and in submitting my amendment to the sentence of the House, I beg to state that the proposition has not emanated from a spirit of cavil, or from a frivolous love of change, but from the maturity of deliberate and conscientious conviction.
Mr. Ewartseconded the amendment. He most cordially concurred in the views entertained upon this question by his hon. Friend. The noble Lord had spoken of a system of equality being established. He could not see any equality in a system in which the revenues of the bishops so much varied—the differences existing in the incomes of the bishops were, in his opinion, so many steps in the ladder of ambition. If they did away with translations, there would be no longer temptations to ambition in the Church. He objected to this measure, because it provided for the great aristocracy of the Church, instead of providing for the democracy in the Church. They were enlarging the ornaments of the edifice, when they ought to be extending and strengthening the foundation. It was his opinion that the system of patronage, now existing in the church, produced a bad moral effect upon the people. The ambition, too, that prevailed in the Church was likely to shake the confidence of the people in the Established Church. With respect to translations it was to be remarked that the majority of those belonging to the Church were opposed to it and Doctor Burton, of Oxford, declared that he never yet had found a single clergyman who was an advocate for translations. He confessed that he could not consider the measure then submitted to them as a measure of real Church Reform. They ought to look more to the democracy of the Church than they had done—they ought to seek to make them more like the clergy of the Scotch Church—they ought to have them more accustomed to the habits of the people—to live for the

35
people—to work for the lowest, and yet not sever themselves from the highest. He trusted that the Bill would not again come before the House without embodying in it a full measure of reform.
Sir Love Parrycould bear testimony, as the Representative of a Cathedral district, that the Bishop of the diocese, although the income of the See did not exceed 3,800 l. had expressed his desire not to be translated to any other See. He also knew of another instance, in which a right reverend Prelate had expressed a similar wish, though he was not at liberty to mention the circumstance more particularly. He apprehended no doubt could be entertained that it would be a great advantage, when a Bishop was once appointed to a diocese, that he shuold continue to remain in it. He by no means objected to the principle of the working clergy being better paid than they were at present.
Mr. Wasonobserved, that if all the patronage now in the hands of the Bishops were placed in the hands of Commissioners, a fund would be provided sufficient to increase small livings and for the building of Churches. He could not see why this ought not to be done. The next presentations to livings in the gift of the bishops could be as well disposed of as those in the gift of the corporations. The bishops said their incomes varied from 4,000 l. to 5,000 l. a year. For a bishop, he thought, 4,500 l. a year ought to be sufficient. The extra 500 l. a year would form a surplus, from which spiritual aid might be provided for 136,000 of the King's subjects. He thought they ought not to proceed farther with this Bill. It was, in his opinion, impossible for the House to give to it at this period that attention which the country demanded.
Mr. Harlandobserved, that the Bill proposed to them was founded on three reports, and they had only two of those reports before them. Under these circumstances, he thought the Bill ought to be postponed to the next Session. The principle of the Bill was, to provide from a surplus, not for the wants of the poorer clergy, but to increase the incomes of the smaller bishoprics. He objected to the Bill on that principle. It was proposed to take a large sum of money from the Diocese of Durham, while it was proved, that in that very diocese, there were 136 livings under 300 l. a-year. He hoped the House would not sanction the taking away 10,000 l. a-year from the diocese of Dur-
36
ham, until the spiritual wants of the people of that diocese were fully provided for.
Mr. Humewished to enter his protest against this Bill, at the same time he was not at all desirous to stop; because, so far as it went, it was good. He protested, however, against it as a settlement of the question. It was allowed that the deans and chapters had enormous incomes, and, in connexion with that fact, he thought they were bound to consider how they could deal with the question of Church-rates. Having passed a vote that they would not allow sinecures in the army and navy, he did not know why sinecures should be permitted to continue in the church. As his Majesty's Government had pledged themselves to a reform as to Church-rates, the public expected and hoped they would have the courage to make such a proposition. That House would support them. He recommended them to pursue this course, for there was no subject more important than that of Church rates. He could not take up a newspaper in which a reference was not made to this subject. He thought that no man could for a moment entertain the notion that Church-rates would be voted out of the consolidated fund. Every day the feeling respecting Church-rates was becoming stronger, and he assured his Majesty's Ministers, that neither could Church-rates be paid out of the consolidated fund; nor was it possible to go on with them, as at present. Why not provide for Church-rates out of the sinecures of the Church? He did not wish to take anything away from the Church, but he wished the amount of those sinecures to be applied to the support of the Church. The noble Lord stated, he wished to continue the connexion between Church and State. Unless the noble Lord put an end to Church-rates, questions would be constantly arising which would risk that connexion. It was to be remarked, that the revenues of the bishops were not simply from 4,000 l. to 5,000 l.; but a bishop, by the patronage in his power, could provide for all his relatives in the male and female line. Great as had been the complaints against the Church of Rome, he believed that in that Church there never had been so much attention paid to the distribution of the property of that Church, as there was at this moment in the Established Church. He could not allow the Bill to pass without entering his protest against it. He believed that if

37
more were not done as to Church reform than what was accomplished in this Bill, the question would continue to agitate the country for a considerable number of years.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, upon the proposal of the noble Lord to go into Committee, a motion had been made and seconded, to prevent the translation of bishops. The hon. Gentlemen who proposed and seconded the amendment, confined themselves strictly to the merits of the amendment. All the other hon. Members who supported the views of the Mover and Seconded had rather strayed away from the amendment in their remarks. With respect to the see of Durham, as he did not perceive that it had any necessary relation to the question now before the House, he could not discuss it at present. He thought, however, that before the motion was debated further, it would be very convenient to know whether the hon. Member intended to press his motion to a division or not. In case he did, he thought the best form he could take would be as an instruction to the Committee; it would be advisable, however, that the House should be assured upon this point, in order that it might know how to proceed. [Mr. Lushington meant to press his motion to a division.] In that case he should certainly support the Bill of the noble Lord, because he cordially approved, in the main, of the principle upon which it was framed. Throughout the whole of the labours of the commission upon whose report this Bill was founded, political views appeared to have been carefully excluded, in the laudable desire to extend the sphere of usefulness of the Church to the furthest practicable limits, and in so doing to attach the hearts and feelings of the people to the Church establishment of this country. He did not believe that there were any sincere friends of the Church more desirous to clear it from its imperfections, and to promote its usefulness, than the bishops who composed the late Ecclesiastical Commission. The whole conduct of those rev. prelates, showed how desirous they were to give practical efficacy to remedial measures; and as one of their first steps, they unhesitatingly followed the example which had just been set them by the then Ministry, and relinquished a large share of patronage in order that it might be applied to purposes of general utility. The hon. Member for Liverpool, in the course of the present debate, had endeavoured to raise a
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distinction between what he was pleased to term the aristocracy and the democracy of the Church. The hon. Member seemed to assume, that clergymen in the lower stations of the Church had no interest in the emoluments attached to the higher preferments. That was a position which he (Sir R. Peel) must deny. He maintained, on the contrary, that by upholding the dignity and the emoluments of the higher offices in the Church, they were also defending the interests and the rights of the so-called democracy of churchmen. Let the hon. Member look to the first five names attached as signatures to the report of this Commission. The first name was Dr. Howley, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the second Dr. Harcourt, Archbishop of York, the third Dr. Blomfield, Bishop of London, the fourth was the late Dr. Van Mildert, Bishop of Durham, and the fifth, Dr. Sumner, Bishop of Winchester. When they read the names and recollected the history of those pious men, who had risen by the force of their own merit and great learning to the highest dignities in the Church, could the House require any argument to show that there was no distinction between the democracy and the aristocracy of the Church. By maintaining those high places, he was holding out, he thought, a stimulus to the emulation of the clergy at large, and a reward for distinguished merit or extraordinary service. By that means, too, they were encouraging a very laudable and a cheering spirit of ambition amongst them. No doubt considerable irregularity existed in the emoluments of the different bishoprics; but he apprehended that, from the peculiar usages and customs in different Sees, and the difference in expense attendant upon them, that inequality was less in reality than was generally reported. To put the see of Durham, for instance, on the same footing in point of revenue with the See of Chester, might apparently be to put them upon an equality, but in reality would result in a gross inequality between them. But there was another point of view in which he thought this subject should be considered. It appeared to him, that by allowing of some degree of inequality between the different sees, they would assimilate the Church Establishment in some degree to the other civil institutions of the country, and with an evident advantage to the Church and to the country

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itself. Certain he was, that the system of unequal division had not been countenanced, either by preceding Governments or the present Government, with any view to influence the bishops in their political conduct by the hope of promotion. The hon. Gentleman spoke against the propriety of holding out an object of ambition to the bishops. Now this involved a question of great importance, which ought not to be hastily decided—namely, whether the bishops ought, or ought not, to be wholly excluded from all participation in political matters, and all share in the management of the civil affairs of the country. For his own part he was free to declare that he believed, that on the whole it was of great advantage to the country that the bishops were permitted, under certain restrictions, to take part in the general affairs of the community. A class of ecclesiastics, totally disconnected from all concern in civil affairs, and altogether removed from politics, would form an infinitely less enlightened, and an infinitely less liberal body of men in every respect; with less capacity for the religious duties of their station, than our present clergy. The hon. Gentleman had further complained, that the Government in power for the time being, always selected their own friends for promotion to a vacant see. Now that appeared to him to be a very natural consequence as long as parties in power had the choice in such matters. Yes, he maintained that it was a very natural, and he did not think a very blameable course of proceeding, at least he felt pretty confident that if his Majesty's present advisers had acted upon a different principle, when occasions offered to them for selection—if, for instance, they had chosen a person to a vacant see who was known to be opposed to their views in politics—the Government would have had to listen to a very severe lecture from their friends. Whilst, therefore, on the one hand, he maintained that these preferments were not made use of as the reward for apostasy, or as inducements for the avowal of a particular set of opinions; on the other hand, it was equally clear to him, that if once the propriety of admitting the bishops at all to participate in the political affairs of the country was admitted, it must be a natural and inevitable consequence that those persons would be selected for promotion to that sphere of political action, who were supposed to be most likely to
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support, by their voice in the assembly of Parliament the views of those who placed them there. With respect to the Bill now before the House, it was undoubtedly a great measure of reform, and one the more likely to be of permanent utility, because it had, to a great extent, been brought about through the cheerful co-operation of the ecclesiastical body themselves, and because it had been framed with a friendly regard to the safety of the whole Church Establishment. There was no desire on the part of the Church to maintain the system of pluralities; at the same time the necessity which every one must be aware of, of providing for the duties of certain smaller livings, must render it impracticable entirely to abolish pluralities. He believed that the point to which the present Bill went in that particular, was the utmost extent which, with safety to the Church Establishment, could be attempted. The House would observe, that there was to be a surplus raised by the Bill, which was to be applied in aid of the smaller livings; and although this principle might not be carried out to the full extent some hon. Members might wish, he trusted they would not on that account oppose the Bill, the passing of which, he thought, would operate as a great practical advantage both to the Church and to the country at large.
Mr. Lennardcomplained that the Bill only provided one course of proceeding against a clergyman for non-residence—namely, at the hands of the bishop, or at least through his permission. He hoped that in Committee the Bill would be altered in this particular, so as to give any one who thought proper, the right of proceeding against the clergyman in such case.
Sir Robert Inglissaid, that the hon. Member who had seconded the motion had alluded to a Bill which had been introduced in the year 1701 upon the same subject, and which had not passed in consequence of its containing a clause relating to Mayors and Aldermen. It was very true, that this Bill, even with the proposed amendment, would not be open to the same kind of objection. But (to speak seriously), he trusted that it would equally fail. To the Bill itself, indeed, he retained all his objections, though he would not now repeat them; but would confine himself to the single question raised by the amendment. The hon. Mem-

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bers for Ashburton and Liverpool, had, indeed, in defiance of the precept and example of the right hon. Baronet, gone from the intentions of the noble Lord, by wandering into details which had nothing to do with the question, and which might be better discussed in Committee. With respect to the amendment, the only point now at issue, he must say, that he was opposed to those who were desirous of abolishing translations. Looking at the state of the Church in this country, and its constitutional share of civil power,—looking also at the very different measures of episcopal duty attached to different sees; he thought it not unfitting that prelates should occasionally be tried in inferior dioceses before they were placed in the higher. The principle was, indeed, admitted by the Mover of the amendment, because he himself excepted some sees. He maintained, that upon an estimate made of all the translations which had taken place for a long period, they had been in favour of what had been called the democratical part of the clergy. He might add, that, whoever might be the persons translated, the expense of maintaining such establishments as were necessary for Lambeth, Winchester, Worcester, and Carlisle, with the expenses of episcopal residences, and the expense incurred upon translation, often a whole year's income, would prevent their being too frequent, and happening occasionally, he thought it was not so serious an evil as those which might arise after the abolition of the practice.
Mr. Arthur Trevorshould certainly vote against the motion of the hon. Member for Ashburton. At the same time he would add, that for his own part he thought it extremely desirable that all legislation on this subject should he deferred to a future Session, in order to give time to the Members of the House to confer with their constituents on a subject so very important to the whole community. The hon. Member then defended the practice of translations, as a great advantage to the zealous performance of the duties of the Church—provided they were not so frequent as to render the Bishop indifferent to the charge in his hands. When he looked at the duties of the Archbishopric of Canterbury, for instance, he did believe that they were of a nature involving such manifold difficulties and such responsibility, as would render it extremely hazardous, to place that see in the care of any one who had not had the
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greatest possible quantity of experience that could be acquired. He thought, moreover, that it was a prerogative very properly belonging to the Crown, to reward signal merit and ability by such promotions, and he could never consent to abolish this practice, because he believed that by so doing he should be going a step towards destroying the connexion between Church and State which existed at present, and which he could never consent to see done away with.
Viscount Ebringtondid not entertain the same desire to have the Bill postponed as had been evinced by the hon. Member for Ashburton. He would not postpone the advantages that the Bill promised, more especially as they were likely to have the concurrence of the other branch of the Legislature. He thought some alterations might, however, be made in Committee; and although no one entertained stronger opinions of the impropriety of the present disparity in ecclesiastical revenues, he did not think that he could, under any circumstances, go the length of the hon. Member for Ashburton, who so entirely restricted the translation of the bishops as not to allow the elevation from the bench to the Archiepiscopal see.
Mr. Fowell Buxtonsaid his complaint against the Bill before the House was, that it did not go far enough. If a reform of the Church was intended, a more substantial measure was necessary. The right hon. Member for Tam worth had assigned as a reason for supporting the Bill, that it was in conformity with the report of the Commissioners; but he (Mr. Buxton) disapproved of it, because it was not in accordance with that Report. He should be guilty of great injustice if he did not state, that the person who drew the report appeared to be actuated by a desire to effect a reform of the establishment; but what he complained of was, that the most important points brought under notice by the Report were not touched upon in the Bill, and had hardly been alluded to by the noble Lord who brought forward the measure. The first important fact stated in the Report was, that there were 3,500 livings with salaries under 150 l. a year, that there were 2,000 livings with salaries under 100 l. a year, and 300 livings with salaries under 50 l. a year, the incumbents of which were, from poverty, unable adequately to discharge their duties. The Bill proposed to apply no remedy to this state of things. In the second place, very im-

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portant information was contained in the following passage in the Report of the Commissioners;—"We regret to state that a vast proportion of the people of this country are left destitute of the opportunity of public worship and religious instruction." These appeared to him to be points which merited prompt attention, and the application of an immediate remedy. When it was stated, not by the foes of the Church, but by five of its bishops, that a vast portion of the people were destitute of the opportunity of obtaining religious instruction, a case was made out which required immediate consideration. Not a syllable, however, was contained in the Bill relative to the first point—namely, the small stipends of the working clergy. [Lord John Russell: that will be the subject of another Bill.] He was aware of that, but if that Bill should pass, the working clergy would still be inadequately provided for. Before the House consented to assign the sum of 15,000 l. to the Archbishop of Canterbury, 10,000 l. to the Bishop of London, and 8,000 l. to another Prelate, they ought to assure themselves that they would have money enough left to make the provision which was necessary for the inferior clergy. He did not grudge the Bishops their income, and was sure that no set of men spent their money with so much advantage to the public as they did, indeed in all their dioceses they were liberal beyond their means, and if the plain and simple question presented itself—should their income be reduced? he would vote in the negative. Another question, however, occurred, what was to be done with the working clergy who were admitted to be in a state of destitution? He would not say that the income of 15,000 l. a year, proposed to be assigned to the Archbishop of Canterbury, was too much or too little; but he wished the House to take into consideration at the same time, that there were 300 of the working clergy, whose united incomes did not amount to the sum of 15,000 l. a year. What was required from clergymen whose income was 2s. 8d. or 2s. 9d. a day? In the first place they were to acquire an expensive education, equal to that required for the very highest order of clergy; then they were to give up the whole of their time to the holy functions of their office; and lastly they were expected, upon this miserable allowance, to keep up the character and appearance of gentlemen. He had recently read the report of a society having the benevolent purpose of affording relief to distressed
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clergy; and when he noticed with what heartfelt thanks trifling sums of 5l. and 10 l. had been received, it convinced him what real objects of commiseration there must be amongst that class of persons. Another report which he had read, and which he was almost ashamed to allude to, called for contributions of cast-off clothes, which it appeared were gratefully received by these meritorious and ill-paid individuals. There was a remarkable passage in the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and which he did not think had been sufficiently met in the present Bill—namely, that there were whole districts throughout the country in a state of total privation of religious instruction. He thought that, as long as such a state of things existed, the House should hesitate before it provided for the dignity, or supported the superfluities, of the Church Establishment, and neglect to do what it could towards supplying what was necessary for the religious instruction of the community. There was the greatest disproportion between the population and stipends of the clergy in various districts throughout the country. Much complaint had lately been made of that clause in the Irish Church Bill by which the income of the clergy of the Church was proportioned to the members connected with it in each parish. Now he ventured to say that if the principle of that clause were adopted with respect to the English Church, the effect would be to double the stipends of upwards of 2,000 individuals. He could not help thinking, that after the obvious defects of this Bill had been pointed out, it would be advisable to limit its operation to a twelvemonth. Another Bill might then be framed by the Government; they taking as their guides and landmarks the two important facts, that there was a vast portion of the population destitute of instruction, and a great proportion of the clergy with scarcely any remuneration whatever. The large incomes of the Bishops should be cut down, in consideration of the wants of the Church; and the main principle of the Irish Church Bill should be applied to the Church of this country—namely an apportionment of stipend in accordance with the duties which were to be performed by the clergy. It was commencing at the wrong end to make a provision for the bishops before all other considerations. The lower order of the clergy should first receive an adequate remuneration, and then the attention of the legislature should be directed to some better

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regulations for affording spiritual instruction in the large, and at present destitute, districts. He felt the more strongly on this part of the question because he had been told that there were in a district in London with which he was acquainted 70,000 persons, for whom no religious instruction was provided. He had inquired into the truth of this statement, and he ascertained that, making every conceivable allowance, there were 60,000 persons who could by no possibility, and upon no emergency of circumstances, receive any religious instruction. He thought, then, that the desirable objects which he had pointed out might be fully accomplished by the reduction of the incomes of the Bishops, and by private and public subscriptions. As he had already said, he was willing to give the members of the Commission credit for a conscientious conviction that in the reforms which they proposed they were consulting the best interests of the Church; but there was one recommendation made by them to which he could not extend that expression of approval, and of which he felt bound to complain. He alluded to the assignment of salaries to the Deans and Canons. Now, the Dean of Chester was to have 440 l. a year, and the Canon 187 l.; whilst the Dean of Durham was to be allowed 4,594 l. a year, and each of the Canons 2,000 l a year. In other words, a Dean of Durham was made worth ten Deans of Chester, and a Canon of Durham equal to a dozen Canons of Chester. It was, in his opinion, very unjustifiable that such anomalies as those to which he had referred should be suffered to exist, whilst there were large districts completely unprovided with spiritual instruction. There was another point to which he wished to address himself. He considered it undoubtedly important that the salaries of the bishops and clergy should be determined upon; but he looked upon it as a matter of still deeper concern to decide who should be appointed to a bishopric or benefice. He did not agree with the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), that politics ought not to be excluded when the choice of a bishop was to be made. Neither did he think that promotion in the Church ought to depend on connexion with some noble family, or on the political aid which was afforded in some parliamentary struggle, or on the circumstance of an individual happening to be a tutor to some member of the Cabinet; for a man might make an admirable tutor, and yet be a very poor clergyman Or Bishop. None pf these considerations
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should be made the sole test of a person's qualification for such offices; but the man of most merit produced by the country, whose heart was evidently in his profession, and who showed his trustworthiness by devotion to his duties in the subordinate offices which he might have filled; who, in the state of his parish, of his congregation, and by his exertions in establishing or promoting schools in it, gave evangelical proofs of his zeal and fidelity; such a man deserved, and ought to receive, promotion. He begged in what he had stated not to be understood as alluding to any modern appointments. As to what was said of danger to the Church, his object in giving the suggestion which he had offered, and he hoped the view entertained by the Government, was not to introduce measures of Church reform, which were intended to make Dissenters Churchmen, or to convert Catholics to Protestantism, but to advance the progress of real religion. Ministers, by persevering steadfastly and unflinchingly in such a course, would place the moral stability of the Church in greater security than if they resorted to all the penal enactments which the invention of man ever discovered or put in force for its defence. Though he was willing to believe that the Commissioners desired to effect a reform in the Church, yet he could not shut his eyes to such a fact as that to which he had referred—that there was a bishopric with 15,000 l. a year, and that some of the clergy had less than 50 l. a year. He warned the Government and the House against the effects of tardy legislation where a grievance existed and called for prompt redress, such a system as that which, by procrastination, had lost America. An insignificant dispute about a few pounds of tea—a mere question of Excise—lost England thirteen provinces; they offered terms and were contemned; next England offered them—and was contemned in turn. Again, with Catholic Emancipation—how easily might Ireland have been conciliated at an earlier period? Subsequently England conceded all the Irish sought—and perhaps more—but again it was "too late." So with Reform—remember East Retford; how much would the legislature not afterwards have given to have been able to retrace that mistaken and ill-judged step of refusing its forfeited franchise to disfranchised Birmingham:—but, again and again, concession came "too late." Were these lessons already forgotten—or were further lessons required in this school of tardy concession?

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He said be wise in season—and if they would unfortunately determine to delay the real reform of the Church for a much longer period, he greatly feared that the consequence (which he for one did not at all desire) would soon follow—that it would be reformed with a vengeance.
Mr. Goulburnobserved that the hon. Member for Weymouth had dwelt much on the necessity of reducing the incomes of the Bishops. He supposed the meaning of his argument to be, that the livings of the Church should have no adequate incomes attached to them. The hon. Gentleman had also omitted to state that 150,000 l. had been taken from the higher livings and sinecures of the Church, in order better to provide for the religious instruction of the people. He did not see that there was any tenable ground of objection to this measure, which went a great way to remove all existing evils, and which had received the sanction and approval of the heads of the Church, who had expressed their approbation of its provisions in a spirit which called forth unmixed praise from all. With regard to what had been said by the hon. Gentleman as to the circumstances which were considered, in the hon. Gentleman's opinion, essential to advancement in the Church, he did not hesitate to say that there were no Bishops of any Church, no matter how selected, who were more free from the imputation of having attained to their station through political influence, or who were more remarkable for their attachment to their religious duties than the Bishops of the Church of England. He also challenged the hon. Gentleman to point out a single name in the list of Deans, who, as well as the Bishops, did not owe their elevation to rank or station, to their high attainments, the excellence of their characters as religious men, and the extent of their learning, literary, scientific, and religious. The proposition, however, which filled him with most astonishment, in the observations of the hon. Gentleman, was his recommendation that the operation of the present Bill should be limited to one year. What object could there be in making the experiment of altering all the incomes of those who belonged to the Church, if, at the end of a year, they were again to receive their present incomes? The hon. Gentleman certainly selected a somewhat strange mode of proving the desire which he expressed of giving relief to the distressed population, and supplying the wants of the poorer clergy, by proposing that a
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measure, and which would in a great degree effect both these objects, should be changed upon the expiration of a year. If he thought that there was another arrangement required for promoting still further than the present Bill the instruction of the destitute classes he would still give his ready assent to the present measure, which had been approved of by the heads of the Church, and which exceeded the expectations of all those whose object was to reform and not destroy the establishment.
Mr. Poulter: Sir, I consider that this Bill, if fairly and justly worked out, will be one of the most beneficial ever presented to the Legislature. I have for the Established Church as a body the greatest respect and veneration; if I had not I should be one of the most ungrateful of human beings; my education, my early connexions, lead me to entertain these feelings towards the episcopal institutions of this country, and towards all the ministers of that Establishment; so that, however in other respects hon. Gentlemen who have spoken upon this question may be greatly my superiors, none can claim more integrity of motive than I can. But it is now universally felt, that the extent of some of the emoluments and preferments of the Church are injurious to its true interests, and that it is not required for its true interests that the heads of that Church, its Bishops and Archbishops, should resemble more temporal princes than spiritual overseers. They deserve, and ought to possess, that degree of wealth which on a fair and moderate calculation may be found to be sufficient for supplying all the necessaries, the comforts, and enjoyments of life, and for enabling them to exercise those charities which adorn the dignity of their station. And my hon. Friend on my left, the Member for Weymouth, did not, as the right hon. Member for Cambridge University imputed—very unfairly, I think, to him—my hon. Friend said nothing against episcopal institutions,—he raised no objections to the Bishops,—he has declared himself favourable to those institutions; and all for which he contends is, that while they are fairly and justly provided for—which he desires to see—due regard be also had to the inferior clergy of the Church, in which I entirely concur with him, though there may have been parts of his speech with which I could not equally agree. But though I consider that upon the whole this Bill will operate bene-

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ficially, there are some conclusions to which the Commissioners have arrived, which if adhered to, will, in my conscience, I believe, do any thing but promote the real interests of the Church. One of the first conclusions to which they have come is, that the whole of the episcopal property of the Church must necessarily be absorbed in providing adequate incomes for the Bishops and Archbishops. Why do I regret this? Because, in contemplating the state of the different dioceses, I see no sort of proportion between the benefices and the population. In the dioceses, for instance, of Norwich and Oxford, the proportion is one benefice to a population of five, six, or seven hundred, while in the dioceses of London and Chester, the ratio is one benefice to a population of five, six, or seven thousand. I see in this statement reason to apprehend, not the future prosperity but the decline and decay of the Establishment in this country; and whether that decline or that prosperity shall really take place, will depend, I believe, mainly upon the manner in which this state of things is dealt with, or suffered to remain. I repeat, you must connect the Established Church of this country with the population; on that connexion depends its decline or prosperity. It is upon this subject especially, if upon no other, that the simple Rule of Three may be made good. The question only is, What is the population? and then according to that population must be the number of your benefices. Upon the subject of religion, as an exception to most others, the poor, the humble, and the destitute, are principally to be considered. But my regret at this recommendation of the Commissioners is considerably increased by another circumstance. I find in the Report that they calculate the value of the revenues of the Church at a three years' average. I can show that such an average will not give you the fair value of that property. For instance, as regards fines, it is notorious that an average of the amount paid in that period of years will by no means give you a fair estimate of their value. I will instance one case, in which the amount paid in fines for three years being 9,400 l., the average of course for that period would be 2,000 l. Now in one year alone, the very distinguished person to whom I allude, the Archbishop of York, received,
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in one fine, in this case, the sum of 30,000 l., or thereabouts. In another case—that of the Prebend of Langton, Lincolnshire, Dr. Maltby, received, in one fine, the sum of 35,000 l. How is it possible that in such cases a three years' average will give the real value of the revenues of the Church? The same remark would apply to other cases to which I will not advert. I return to my former observation, and I ask, can the Commissioners really, conscientiously, say, that it is more for the benefit of the Established Church that the Archbishops and Bishops should have such sums as 15,000 l., 10,000 l., 8,000 l., and 7,000 l., than that less sums should be given them, and the remainder appropriated to the religious instruction of populous and unprovided-for districts. I may also observe, that the alteration from a paper currency to a metallic currency should be considered as having improved the value of the episcopal incomes. It appears to me, that the most reasonable mode of effecting the object of the Bill would be to place all the episcopal property in the hands of an ecclesiastical trust, which should receive all the funds of that property, pay the Prelates certain salaries, and retain the surplus in their hands. In this method, by removing the Bishops from any control over the estates, we should prevent the possibility of an old Bishop being imposed upon, by being compelled to take a fine less than the real value of the estate entitled him to; and, on the other hand, we should prevent a young Bishop from receiving more in the way of fine than he had a right to receive. We should also prevent all that jobbing and that bickering between the clergy which are now unhappily so prevalent. I should undoubtedly object to the principle of appropriation as applied to the Church of England; but I do say, that if a petition should be presented, for instance, from the county of Durham, setting forth the great want of a spiritual ministry in that district, and the enormous surplus revenues of the see of Durham, and praying that a portion of those revenues might be set apart for the purpose of extending the benefits of religious instruction to the destitute population of the county, I should be inclined to assent to that prayer. You must make your Church connected with your people. The Church against which you especially protest, understands this

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principle; and she has always connected herself with the very lowest of the population. You must not be satisfied with raising splendid Grecian or Gothic edifices, ornamental as they are, and honourable to the civilization and the taste of a country,—you must be content to build with brick and wood in this work. You must build churches for the accommodation of the poorer classes; you must give the poorer classes of your population the opportunity of obtaining all the spiritual instruction which your Establishment will afford them. The Dissenters have been created by yourselves. I have often said to a Dissenter, "You owe your very existence to the Established Church." They owe their existence to neglect of the abuses of the Church. For that Church, as I said at the commencement of my speech, I have the greatest respect, but I am bound honestly to state my views as to that which I believe essential to her future prosperity; I will only add, that I think it will be necessary to make some alteration in the Commission. It is impossible that the noble Lord, the Home Secretary, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, can, with all their heavy duties, attend to the deliberations of the Commissioners. Let there be an addition, then, to the Commission, not only of laymen, by the ministers of the Church, the inferior orders of the clergy, as well as Bishops and Archbishops; men who take comprehensive and sensible views, and who, without any wild, innovating notions, will have at heart the true interests of the Church. There is too much talk in this House about friendliness to the Church. I do not question the sincerity of these professions, either on the part of Government or of hon. Gentlemen opposite; but I wish to see more of the enlightened realities of true friendship to the Establishment,—a disposition to carry into their full operation just principles with regard to it. I conclude, Sir, by expressing one principle, which appears to me, as I have before said, essential to the prosperity of the Church: Where your population is, there let your Church be also.
Mr. Charles Bullertook the same view of the subject that had been taken by the hon. Member for Weymouth, and maintained that the Bill was miserably deficient as a measure of Church Reform. There was throughout the country, a strong, earnest, and sober desire for the Reform of
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the Church; and the people would never be satisfied till such a Reform was effected. As to what the hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House called the great prizes of the Church, and lauded as such, they were, in his opinion, great sources of political jobbing. What was the cause of increase of dissent? In what part of England was the greatest proportion of Dissenters to be found? In Cornwall. And why? Because in that county there were the greatest number of non-resident clergy, the working clergy were the worst paid, and the people were driven into dissent because they had not means of religious instruction. Of this he was sure, that when his constituents asked him what had been done by Parliament on the subject of Church Reform, they would be far from satisfied on learning that nothing had been done for the working clergy, for whom they had wished everything; and that everything had been done for the higher clergy, for whom they had not wished for anything. He would most cordially support the proposition which had been made by the hon. Member for Ashburton. As to the Bill, in his opinion, it would be much better to withdraw it; and by the next Session his Majesty's Ministers might, perhaps, be able to prepare a Bill which would prove a real and permanent measure of Reform of the Church of England.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that undoubtedly the withdrawing of the Bill might lead to this advantageous result, that it would give the hon. Member an opportunity of rendering himself acquainted with the Report of the Commissioners, and the measure founded upon it, which it was evident he had not yet read. If the House were to be guided by the statement of the hon. Gentleman, they would believe that the only object of the Report and the Bill was to place the lower bishoprics on a level in point of emolument with the higher. Now that was not a candid statement. It kept out of sight the fact, that the Bill restored a number of benefices which were at present held in commendam to the working clergy. It enacted also that all that remained after duly providing for the Cathedral services should be applied to the general diffusion of religious instruction. He rejoiced that such a measure, enforcing such a system, had been introduced into Parliament with the consent of the high authorities of the Church. As to the proposition made by the hon. Member for Ashburton, he could not help thinking, that whatever might

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have been said in favour of that proposition, if the bishoprics had been allowed to remain of very unequal value, all the arguments urged against translations, ceased to apply when a measure was before the House, one of the objects of which was to bring the various bishoprics to as near a state of equality as possible.
Mr. Lushingtonsaid, he should nevertheless persevere in his amendment.
The House divided on the original question: Ayes 124; Noes 44—Majority 80.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Admiral

Herries, rt. hon. J. C.

Arbuthnot, hon. H.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.

Ashley, Lord

Hodges, Thos. Law

Barclay, David

Hogg, James Weir

Baring, F. T.

Howard, P. H.

Baring, F.

Hoy, J. B.

Baring, W.

Inglis, Sir R. H., bart.

Barnard, E. G.

Jervis, John

Bateson, Sir R.

Jones, W.

Beckett, Sir J.

Jones, Theobald

Bentinck, Lord G.

Kearsley, J. H.

Bentinck, Lord W.

Knatchbull, Sir E.

Blackburne, I.

Knox, hon. J.

Brownrigg, J. S.

Labouchere, H.

Burton, Henry

Lefevre, C. S.

Buxton, T. F.

Lincoln, Earl of

Chapman, Aaron

Longfield, R.

Chisholm, A.

Lushington, Dr.

Corry, hon. H. T. L.

Lygon, hn. Col. H. B.

Denison, J.

Mackenzie, J. A. S.

Dillwyn, L. Weston

Marsland, Thomas

Donkin, Sir Rufane

Maule, hon. Fox

Dundas, J. D.

Maunsell, T. P.

East, James Buller

Moreton, hon. A. H.

Eastnor, Viscount

Mostyn, hon. E. L.

Ebrington, Lord

Murray, rt. hon. J.

Egerton, Sir P.

Neeld, J.

Elley, Sir John

Nicholl, Dr.

Elwes, J.

O'Loghlen, M.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Paget, Frederick

Estcourt, T. S. B.

Palmer, George

Euston, Lord

Parry, Sir L. P.

Fergusson, rt. hon. C.

Peel, Sir R., bart

Finch, George

Pelham, hon. C.

Fitzgibbon, hon. B.

Philips, G. R.

Fitzroy, Lord C.

Plumptre, John P.

Follett, Sir W. Webb

Plunkett, R.

Forbes, W.

Pollock, Sir F.

Forster, Charles S.

Praed, Winthrop M.

Fremantle, Sir T. W.

Price, S. G.

Geary, Sir W. R. P.

Pusey, Philip

Gordon, Robert

Rice, rt. hon. T.

Goulburn, hon. H.

Rolfe, Sir M. R.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Rooper, J. Bonfoy

Grey, Sir George, bt.

Ross, Charles

Hale, R. B.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Hamilton, G. A

Russell, Lord John

Harcourt, G.

Sandon, Lord

Hardy, J.

Sanford, E. A.

Hawkins, J. H.

Scarlett, hon. R.

Hay, Sir A. Leith

Seymour, Lord

Henniker, Lord

Sheppard, T.

54

Sibthorp, Colonel.

Tynte, C. J. Keymeys

Smith, Robert V.

Vernon, Granville H.

Somerset, Lord G.

Walker, C. A.

Spry, Sir S.

Walker, Richard

Stanley, Lord

Williams, Robert

Stormont, Lord

Wodehouse, E.

Stuart, Lord Dudley

Wynn, rt. hon. C. W.

Talbot, J. Hyacinth

Young, G. F.

Thompson, Alderman

Townley, R.G.

TELLERS.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Stanley, E. J.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Steuart, Robert

List of the NOES.

Attwood, Thomas

Lister, E. C.

Bagshaw, John

Marsland, H.

Baines, Edward

Morrison, James

Blamire, W.

Mullins, F. W.

Bowes, John

O'Brien, W. S.

Bowring, Dr.

Philips, Mark

Brabazon, Sir W.

Potter, Richard

Brocklehurst, J.

Poulter, J. S.

Brodie, William B.

Pryme, George

Brotherton, J.

Robinson, George

Buller, Charles

Rundle, J.

Fellowes, N.

Thompson, Colonel

Ferguson, Sir R.

Tooke, W.

Fielden, J.

Tulk, Charles Aug.

Goring, Harry Dent

Wakley, Thomas

Harland, W. Charles

Wallace, Robert

Hastie, A.

Warburton, Henry

Hawes, Benjamin

Williams, William

Hindley, C.

Williamson, Sir H.

Horsman, Edward

Wilson, Henry

Hutt, W.

Lambton, Hedworth

TELLERS.

Lawson, Andrew

Lushington, Charles

Lennard, Thomas B.

Ewart, William

On the Question being again put, "That the Speaker do leave the Chair."
Mr. Arthur Trevorexpressed his regret that he must oppose the motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair. He felt, however, that he had a duty to discharge towards the inhabitants of that diocese with which he was most connected, and towards the large body of the clergy of that diocese whose petition he had had the honour of presenting to the House. It was highly desirable that due time should be afforded for ample communications with those who were so deeply affected by the measure, and he had the satisfaction to know that in that view of the subject he should be supported by hon. Members who had a deeper interest in the question than he himself bad. He would not enter at large into the subject. It was notorious that the Bill went to abstract a large annual revenue from the see of Durham, and did not confer any local benefit in return. Strongly opposed, therefore, to what he conceived to be an act of gross injustice towards his constituents, he would move, as an amendment,

55
that the Bill be committed on that day six months.
Mr. George F. Young, as the Representative of a populous borough within the diocese of Durham, and one of those Members to whom an appeal had been made, must inform the hon. Member that he was not one on whose support the hon. Member could reckon. He took an enlarged view of the subject, and did not consider that the Bill only affected his constituents, but that it embraced abuses which had been long complained of in the Church Establishment.
Mr. Lambtonsaid, that the Commissioners were not sufficiently aware of the nature of Church property in Durham; in fact the noble Secretary of State, to whom a deputation had gone up, had shown that he was unacquainted with the subject. He therefore was in favour of delay.
Sir Hedworth Williamsonentreated the noble Lord to postpone the Bill till another Session; and in the mean time the clergy of the diocese of Durham would give every possible information respecting the spiritual state of that county.
Lord John Russellsaid, that the question involved the whole principle of Reform. If the House were to say, that the surplus of the see of Durham, the largest which the Church Commissioners were likely to have, should not be applied as they recommended, it would put a stop to the whole measure. Hon. Members had not adverted to the real question, which was simply whether this income should be taken away from the bishopric of Durham, to be applied to other bishoprics.
Mr. Potterwished the House to wait till it was ascertained what the other House of Parliament would do with the Irish Church Bill, and the Dissenters' Marriage Registration Bill, before it proceeded with this Bill.
Mr. Wynnprotested against delay, as the Bill affected the interests of all the members of the Church of England, scattered over different parts of the country. He should, therefore, vote for the House immediately taking the measure into consideration.
The House divided on the Motion: Ayes 142; Noes 22—Majority 120.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Sir C.

Baldwin, Dr.

Ashley, Lord

Balfour, Thomas

Attwood, T.

Baring, F. T.

Bagshaw, J.

Baring, W. B.

Bainbridge, E. T.

Baring, T.

Baines, E.

Barnard, Edw, George

56

Beckett, rt. hon. Sir J.

Lennard, T. B.

Benett, J.

Lincoln, Earl of

Bentinck, Lord G.

Lushington, Dr.

Bentinck, Lord W.

Mackenzie, S.

Bernal, Ralph

Maher, John

Blackburne, I.

Maule, hon. Fox

Blake, M. J.

Maunsell, T. P.

Blamire, W.

Mostyn, hon. E.

Bowring, Dr.

Mullins, F. W.

Brodie, W.B.

Neeld, J.

Brotherton, J.

Nicholl, Dr.

Brownrigg, S.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Chalmers, P.

O'Loghlen, Michael

Chapman, A.

Paget, F.

Chisholm, A. W.

Palmer, G.

Clements, Viscount

Parry, Sir L. P. J.

Cockerell, Sir C.

Pechell, Captain

Codrington, C. W.

Peel, Sir Robert, bart.

Denison, J. E.

Pelham, hon. C. A.

D'Eyncourt, rt. hn. C.

Pemberton, Thomas

Dillwyn, L. W.

Perceval, Colonel

Donkin, Sir R.

Plumptre, J. P.

East, J. B.

Plunket, hon. R. E.

Eaton, R. J.

Poulter, J. S.

Egerton, W. T.

Praed, W. M.

Elley, Sir John

Pryme, G.

Elwes, J. P.

Pryse, P.

Estcourt, T. G.

Pusey, P.

Estcourt, T. H.

Rippon, C.

Feilden, W.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Ferguson, Sir Rob.

Rooper, J. B.

Finch, George

Ross, Charles

Fitzgibbon, hon. Col.

Rundle, J.

Follett, Sir W.

Rushbrook, Colonel

Forster, Charles S.

Russell, Lord J.

Fremantle, Sir Thomas

Sandon, Viscount

Gladstone, Thomas

Sandford, E. A.

Gladstone, W. E.

Scarlett, hon. R.

Gordon, R.

Seymour, Lord

Goring, H. D.

Sheppard, T.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Smith, R. V.

Goulburn, Mr. Serg.

Somerset, Lord Geo.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Stormont, Viscount

Grey, Sir G.

Stuart, Lord Dudley

Hale, R. Blagden

Talbot, C. R. M.

Harcourt, G, G.

Talbot, J. Hyacinth

Hardy, J.

Talfourd, Mr. Serg.

Hawes, B.

Thornely, T.

Hawkins, J. H.

Trewlawney, Sir W.

Heneage, E.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Henniker, Lord

Tulk, C. A.

Herries, rt. hn. J. C.

Vivian, J.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Wakley, T.

Hodges, T. L.

Walker, C. A.

Horsman, E.

Williams, R.

Howard, Philip H.

Williams, W.

Jephson, Chas. D. O.

Wilson, Henry

Jervis, J.

Wodehouse, E.

Jones, W.

Wood, C.

Jones, T.

Wood, Alderman

Kearsley, J. H.

Wynn, rt. hon. C. W.

Knightley, Sir Charles

Young, G. F.

Knox, hon. J. J.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

TELLERS.

Lawson, A.

Stanley, E. J.

Lefevre, C. S.

Steuart, R.

Lemon, Sir Charles

57

List of the NOES.

Barclay, D.

Morrison, J.

Bowes, J.

Potter, R.

Brocklehurst, J.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Buller, C.

Thompson, Alderman

Cayley, E. S.

Thompson, Colonel

Fielden, J.

Wallace, Robert

Hamilton, G. A.

Warburton, H.

Harland, W.

Wason, Rigby

Hastie, Archibald

Williamson, Sir H.

Hindley, C.

Hutt, William

TELLERS.

Lushington, C.

Trevor, hon. A.

Marsland, Henry

Lambton, H.

On the first Clause (relating to the appointment of Commissioners) being put.
Sir Love Parryeulogised the conduct of the Commissioners, (Ecclesiastical Commissioners), and above all the Archbishop of Canterbury, but contended that sufficient attention had not been paid to the situation of the inhabitants of Wales in the new arrangement of the Welsh dioceses. By the proposed system the Bishop of St. Asaph would be liable to constant charges of non-residence, and would lose a great deal of his influence in his diocese. The great mass of the population of North Wales consisted of Dissenters, but they were friendly to the Church, and they, as well as the ministers of the Church, looked at the proposed change with great jealousy. After these observations, he would conclude with expressing his sincere hope that the House would not alow the see of Bangor to merge into any other, and that no part of the funds belonging to that see shall be withdrawn from it.
Mr. Rigby Wasonobjected to the power which this clause gave these Commissioners. By this Bill a certain number of individuals would have the whole power of regulating the Established Church; he (Mr. Wason) could not conceive of a British House of Commons consenting to delegate that power, which Parliament ought to keep in its own hands, of legislating for the Established Church, into the hands of these Commissioners. He considered such a delegation of power as most unconstitutional. The other night the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, had objected to the House delegating its functions to Commissioners, and the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had acceded to his views. Why, then, should he hand over so much power as was given to the Commissioners, in this Bill? Why, did the hon. Member for Durham know, that under this Bill the Commissioners would have the power of
58
saying, "there shall be no Bishopric of Durham?" ["loud cries of no, no,"] Well, let hon. Gentlemen who cried "no" read the 13th Clause,—"And be it enacted that as soon as any such order in council," and everybody knew that this "order in Council" meant nothing more nor less than the order of the Minister of the Day. ["no, no."] That was his (Mr. Wason's) impression.—"Be it enacted that as soon as any such Order in Council shall be so registered, it shall, in all respects, and as to all things therein contained, have and be of the same force and power as if all and every part thereof were included in this Act, any law, statute, charter, patent, usage, or custom, to the contrary notwithstanding." These words were about as sweeping as any he had ever read. And he (Mr. Wason) asked the House of Commons, was it right that such powers as these should be delegated to these Commissioners? If the Ministers of the Crown had any project in contemplation which they were afraid the House of Commons would not sanction, he (Mr. Wason) could comprehend very well the necessity for such provisions. As a matter of expediency he could understand it, but certainly it was contrary to all principle, and—except indeed during the last four years, when the country had swarmed with Commissioners—contrary to all precedent, and contrary to all practice. He did strenuously object to giving any Commissioners power which Parliament ought to keep in its own hands.
Lord John Russellsaid, that the hon. Member's objection would be good if the power of the Commissioners was unlimited, but it was defined and restricted by the 10th Clause to matters of detail. The objection of the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, was to Commissioners having power to alter the schedules of the Registration of Births Bill, and thereby being enabled to form any measure they thought fit. In this Bill there was no such power given. And, therefore, though the objection of the hon. Gentleman would be, if founded in truth, a very strong one, it entirely fell to the ground when the 10th Clause was considered.
Mr. Wasoncontended, that the preamble of the Bill quite counteracted any restrictions on the powers of the Commissioners, which the 10th Clause might be supposed to contain. He would not weary the House by going through the lengthen-

59
ed preamble; but he would remark that it gave the Commissioners power to award such compensation as they might deem just and equitable to those officers connected with the deans and chapters, who might be injured or superseded by the provisions of this Bill. That was a power which he (Mr. Wason) objected to. He also objected to the Bishops having any patronage. He considered patronage as an additional source of emolument to those who held it. What reason again was there given for allowing the Archbishop of Canterbury the sum of 15,000 l. a-year,—the Archbishop of York 10,000 l. the Bishop of London, 10,000 l., &c. The House ought to consider that for every 400 l. they gave to these dignitaries annually more than was necessary, they deprived 5,000 persons of spiritual instruction. If there were provisions in the Bill that the Archbishop of Canterbury, for instance should keep so many horses,—and give so many dinners, he (Mr. Wason) could understand the necessity for giving him 15,000 l. a-year. But he saw no reason why that prelate should not have 7,000 l. only, and the rest be applied to the instruction of the people. Reference was made to the comparisons which were sometimes. instituted between ecclesiastical dignitaries and the legal dignitaries of the country? You gave 8,000 l. a-year to the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench. Why did you give him so large a sum? Because it was necessary, in order to give satisfaction to the public, and confidence to the Bar, that, from perhaps the most lucrative profession in this country, you should select the best man to occupy the judicial bench; and without a large salary you would not induce him to relinquish his practice. But in the case of the Archbishop of Canterbury the same necessity did not exist: for who would say that the most exemplary pastor among the clergy,—and only such should be selected for the episcopal dignity,—would be thought more of to-morrow, with a salary of 15,000 l. than he is to day—with 150 l. a-year. He (Mr. Wason) could if necessary go through a variety of other instances in which the Commissioners' powers were left by the preamble, notwithstanding the supposed restriction of the 10th Clause, almost omnipotent; and his objection remained as strong as it was before.
The clause was agreed to.
Clause 2nd, was also agreed to.
On Clause 3rd being proposed,
Mr. Hindleysaid, that he considered this clause quite unnecessary, as the object of it was already fully provided for. He moved that the clause be struck out.
The Committee divided on the clause: Ayes 79; Noes 21; Majority 58.
The clause was agreed to, as were the following clauses to eight inclusive.
The House resumed: the Committee to sit again.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Liverpool Fire and Life Insurance.—Read a first time:—Murderers Execution.

MARRIAGES—MISTAKE IN THE BILL.
A Message from the Commons, brought up by Mr. Wilks and others, informed their Lordships, that a proviso in the 18th Clause of the Marriages' Bill, to this effect:—"Provided that at the time of such marriage each of the parties shall declare to the Superintendent Registrar, 'I do solemnly declare that I have conscientious scruples against marrying in any church or chapel, or with any religious ceremony,'" although struck out by way of amendment on the third reading, had, by mistake of the Clerk, been retained and engrossed, and appeared in the Bill as printed by order of their Lordships, and read a first time. Their Lordships were therefore requested to expunge that proviso, the same not forming part of the Bill as passed by the Commons.
The Messengers having withdrawn,
Viscount Melbournequoted two precedents—the one of a message in 1797, brought up by Mr. Wilberforce, the other
2
by Sir George Hill, in 1803, and moved, in conformity with the practice followed in those cases, that the proviso alluded to be expunged, that the Bill be reprinted, and that a message be sent to the Commons to inform them that the proviso had been struck out.
The Earl of Shaftesburythought the proper way would be, as the House of Commons had sent up an incorrect Bill, to move that it be returned to them.
The motion was agreed to, and ordered accordingly, and the aforesaid proviso was ordered to be expunged, and a Message sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith. Then the Bill was read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time.
The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next.

ADVOWSONS (IRELAND).
The Marquess of Westmeath The Marquess of Westmeath moved for "a Copy of the Petition of Lay Patrons of Advowsons in Ireland to his Majesty, which was put into the hands of Lord John Russell, Secretary of State for the Home Department, in the month of June, 1835, and for any answer which his Majesty may have been advised to give thereto," By the

3
17th and 18th Charles 2nd, cap. 2, sec. 158, and the 2nd Anne, cap. 6., sec. 15th and 25th, Acts passed in the Parliament of Ireland, all Roman Catholics or Papists, patrons of Ecclesiastical livings in that kingdom, were deprived of the patronage and right to present to those livings, and the right of presenting was vested in the Crown as trustee, until such Papists, or their heirs, should take the oaths of allegiance, abjuration, &c, and conform to the Protestant religion, whereupon such right was to be again revested in the person so conforming and his heirs. The Crown having neglected to execute the trust by omitting from time to time to present clerks to the respective churches of the divested Papists, the Bishops should have collated thereto by lapse; but, instead of doing so, they collated to them as of their own right, and still continue to do so whenever a vacancy occurs, thereby putting the heirs of the rightful patrons, who have conformed (and who have consequently reinvested themselves with all their patrimonial rights and privileges) to the expense of the action of quare impedit, to obtain the actual possession of those rights—a state of things which never could have been contemplated by the Legislature when the above Acts were passed; on the contrary, the latter part of the 158th section alluded to, enacts, "That from and after such conformity, the right of presentation shall be again revested in the person so conforming, and his heirs." The subject demanded the serious consideration of his Majesty's Government; he hoped his motion would not be opposed.
Viscount Melbournesaid, the Crown could have no knowledge of the religious opinions of those who described themselves as lay patrons of advowsons, or as to the nature and origin of their rights. He did not therefore see how the Crown could at all interfere in the matter.
Lord Ellenboroughwas of opinion, that this was not a case for the Secretary of State to interfere in, and if any noble Lord thought the present law defective, as to the application of relief, such noble Lord should bring the matter forward by a Bill.
The Marquess of Clanricardehoped due inquiry would be made into this subject. According to the present form of proceeding by quare impedit, the delay and expense amounted to a denial of justice.
Lord Wynfordcontended, that already a tribunal existed for such cases, where the expense of the pleadings had been reduced as much as possible. It was impossible to recover this species of property by petition to Parliament.
Lord Plunketsaid, that the Crown was not in the situation of a trustee for the parties from whom the right of presentation to these livings was taken; for, before the Crown could be placed in that situation, it must know the nature of the right and title which the parties had to these advowsons, and must also know the religion which they professed. You could not say at once that the party from whom the right of presentation was taken was a Papist, and that he was therefore deprived of it; nor could you, on the other hand, say at once, that the heir of that party, who was a Papist, was now a Protestant, and therefore entitled to be restored to the control over these advowsons.
Lord Ellenboroughsuggested, that by referring to the clause in the Act of Parliament, there would be no difficulty in ascertaining the religion of the party claiming as a right the restoration of these advowsons. How did that clause ascertain the party's religion? By enacting that he should go to Church and take the Sacrament according to the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England. If a case were to be laid before the Attorney-General, showing that the right heir of the party from whom the presentation was taken was a Protestant, and had gone to Church, and had taken the Sacrament according to the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England, the Crown would be compelled to restore to him the rights of advowson, which had been taken from his ancestor as a Papist.
The Marquess of Clanricardecontended, that the Crown had neglected to take possession of this species of property, which it had wrested from the right owners, and that it had therefore got, by some means or other, into the hands of the Bishops, who now claimed as a matter of right to present to these advowsons. He denied that there had been any measures recently adopted to diminish the expense which it was necessary to incur in vindicating for individuals of this description.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that it was too much to suppose, without further inquiry, that the Bishops having not for

5
many years collated to these livings, had collated to that to which they had no light. If the right of presentation to these livings was in the Crown, the Bishops had no right to collate to them; but it was unfair to presume, without examination, that the Bishops had done that which they had no right to do.
The Duke of Cumberland: If I recollect right, it was said on a former occasion, that the Crown had taken possession of the right to the presentation of these livings, and had given it over to the Bishops of the several dioceses in which they were situated.
The Marquess of Westmeathcould not help thinking still, that this was a case of peculiar and remarkable hardship. The noble Viscount at the head of the Government asked, what could the King's Ministers do in this case? He (the Marquess of Westmeath) answered, that the King's Commissioners had the custody of the public records: the King's Ministers could constitute a Commission to inquire into the right of presentation to these livings, and could greatly facilitate the ends of justice. He was not of opinion, as the noble and learned Lords (Plunket and Wynford) who had spoken seemed to be, that it was desirable to plunge a man into that delectable remedy, a court of law, which the noble and learned Lords seemed to consider as the panacea for evils of this case. The noble and learned Lord who sat near him (Lord Wynford) had said, that the expense and delay attending the proceeding by quare impedit had been of late greatly diminished. He (the Marquess of Westmeath) admitted, that such might have been the case in England, but he defied the noble and learned Lord to tell him of one single statute which had been passed with that object in Ireland. The proposition for which he contended was this, that no man with two eyes in his head [laughter] could read the Acts to which he had referred, without being convinced, that it was intended by the framers of that Act, that any Peer if a Catholic, from whom the right of these advowsons had been taken, who had conformed to the Protestant religion, should take possession of that right without being compelled to go to law. And he considered, that the Crown, having the means in its power, by possession of the public records, and other circumstances, ought to afford him every facility in the recovery of that right.
Motion agreed to.

DISCIPLINE OF THE CHURCH.
On the motion of the Lord Chancellor, the Church Discipline Bill was recommitted.
The two first clauses were agreed to. The third, fourth, and fifth clauses were postponed.
Clauses 6, 7, 8, and 9, were agreed to, and Clause 10 postponed.
On Clause 12, persons promoting suits to execute bonds for payment of costs,
The Bishop of Exeterthought that the Bill as it at present stood was defective in one material particular, viz., that it afforded no encouragement to the prosecution of those cases in which prosecutions ought to be instituted; nay, rather contained a provision which went to discourage those prosecutions, because it was provided that no person should be allowed to institute a prosecution against any clergyman, unless he would submit to enter into a bond of 100 l. He spoke from experience when he said that the difficulty of procuring voluntary prosecution was at present almost insuperable; and undoubtedly the expenses must always be such as would deter individuals from prosecuting. By the old law the Bishop was subject to the expenses of prosecutions, but that was peculiarly objectionable, because the Bishop's officers were the persons who tried the offender, and the Bishop therefore would have an appearance of interest against the offender, and an interest to procure costs from him, in order to pay back a portion of the amount for which the Bishop was liable; but how much would that objection be increased when the Bishop personally presided at the trial? To remedy this he knew of no other mode than that which he would take the liberty to suggest. The Commissioners for inquiry into the state of the Church had recommended in their last Report that several offices, commonly considered as sinecures, should be destroyed, and the revenues paid over into the hands of certain Commissioners, hereafter to be applied for the purposes of the well-being of the Church; but he submitted there could he no more just, no more reasonable purpose—none in which the best interests of the Church were more concerned—than the taking care that the real delinquents should be punished, and the Church be freed from the scandal arising from the conduct of unworthy members. He begged to propose a clause to the effect—that after any suit may have been commenced, if the party should be unable effectually to prosecute

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his charge, by reason of the expenses attending that prosecution, the Bishop may appoint an Archdeacon to carry on the prosecution, and bear all the lawful charges; and that such Archdeacon should report to the Bishop a true account of all expenses so incurred, deducting there from any costs which may have been allowed to him in the cause; and that the Bishop shall subscribe an order to refund those expenses, addressed either to the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty, or any other treasurer of the revenues of suppressed sinecures in the diocese; and that, after the production of such order, such treasurer be directed to pay out the sums from one of the said funds.
The Lord Chancellorwas afraid, if that clause were agreed to, that all the proceedings in every case would ultimately fall upon that fund. The clause was in-opposition to the principle of law, that the prosecutor was responsible for the propriety of the proceedings.
The Bishop of Exeterwas far from being bigoted to his own plan; but he was confident, that unless some means were devised to shield prosecutors from the necessary expenses, there would be an end to the discipline of the Church, and the clergy would only be restrained by their own sense of decency and of duty, which hitherto, thank God, had been so conspicuous and unexampled.
The Archbishop of Canterburysaid, it was very true that prosecutions before the Ecclesiastical Courts had been very unsatisfactory; and that the great cause of that had been the large amount of expenses to which prosecutors were subject. He did not allude to the penal bond, because he apprehended that 100 l. would go a very short way towards paying those expenses. It must be allowed that it was very desirable that some means should be devised of defraying the expenses, when really a prosecution was required, and the case was one of a trying nature; but, according to the amendment proposed, there would not be a single cause found in which the expenses were not paid out of the fund. Now, he should be sorry to divert the fund alluded to, which was intended for the increase of small livings, to any other purposes; for by adopting that, whilst they were doing good to the Church in one way, they would be impeding one of the very great purposes for which the Church Commission was intended.
Lord Ellenboroughsuggested, that some
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clause might be founded upon the principle of the rev. Prelate's amendment, and might be proposed for insertion upon the third reading.
The remainder of the clauses passed through the Committee. The House ressumed. Committee to sit again.