Sitting of 17 August 1836

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Public Works (Ireland); Parochial Assessments.
Petitions presented. By Mr. WILKS, from Chatterlis, Isle of Ely, against Church Rates.—By Mr. ANDERSON PELHAM, from Brigg, for Abolition of County Rates.—By Mr. HARVEY, from the Surrey Radical Association, complaining of the manner in which the Poor Law is administered.

CHURCH-RATES.
Mr. Wilkspresented a petition from the parish of Chatteris, in the Isle of Ely, against the present system of Church-rates,
Lord J. Russellsaid, that he would take
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the present opportunity to correct a misunderstanding respecting some words which fell from him on the subject of Church-rates. A discussion had taken place on the subject in the course of the present Session, and an hon. Member had stated that his vote would depend on the answer which he (Lord J. Russell) might give to questions put to him on the subject. He thought that it would be very unfair to induce the hon. Member to give a vote on his (Lord J. Russell's) side, when it might appear afterwards that the remedy which he had to propose was not such as the hon. Member anticipated. But this statement had been supposed to imply a determination on his part that the measure to be brought in next Session should be framed in a manner unsatisfactory to that hon. Gentleman, to his hon. Friend who presented this petition, and to most of those who entertained similar opinions. He begged to state that this was not at all the meaning which he intended to convey. He had thought it unfair to ask any hon. Member for a vote, when the measure which he proposed might not come up to that hon. Member's expectations; but it had been, and was, his hope, that the measure which he had to propose would be satisfactory to his hon. Friend, and to the great mass of those who coincided with him in opinion.
Petition laid on the table.

JUVENILE OFFENDERS.
Mr. Humetook this opportunity of asking the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether Government had any measures in preparation for the purpose of promoting the reformation of juvenile offenders, as had been announced at an early part of the present Session?
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the subject was under consideration, and he hoped to be able to bring forward a measure on the subject in the course of next Session. He had had it in contemplation last year to appropriate the prison of Dartmoor as a receptacle for juvenile offenders. The opinion of two of the inspectors of prisons was, that it might be fitted up for that purpose; but when plans of the alterations came to be made out, both the inspectors, as well as an architect who was sent down to survey the building, were of opinion that it was not advisable to lay out any sum of money upon it, as it could not be kept in repair. He had caused inquiry to

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be made with regard to other buildings in the country, but had not been able to satisfy himself that any one was proper for the purpose. He had another site in view, however, to which he hoped to be able to transfer juvenile offenders from the metropolitan prisons, in order to their better and more effectual confinement.
Mr. C. Barclaybegged to suggest the expediency of granting to his majesty some power of summary punishment in the case of juvenile offenders.
Lord J. Russellreplied that his attention was particularly directed to that part of the subject. The hon. Member, however, must be sensible of the difficulty of framing a measure for such a purpose which should not run counter to the feelings of the country respecting the administration of justice.
Mr. Lennardasked, if it was the intention of Government to introduce any measure for the purpose of giving effect to the recommendations contained in the Report of the Commissioners on the Criminal Law, which had been for some time on the table of the House?
Lord J. Russellsaid, that he had stated before, in answer to a question from the hon. Member for Cockermouth, that a measure was in contemplation, which he hoped to be able to introduce next Session. The report to which the hon. Gentleman referred, though a very able document, did not go into the whole of the subject.
Subject dropped.

CONVICTS IN AUSTRALIA.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that an hon. Member had placed a notice on the books for an address to his Majesty, intreating the Royal clemency to those Convicts who had been transported to New South Wales, in 1831, from Hampshire, and the south of England, for the offences of machine-breaking, fire-raising, rioting, &c. It would be quite unnecessary for him to enter into the question of the propriety of that address, as he had received a letter from the Under-Secretary of the Colonies, in reply to one addressed to that hon. Gentleman on the subject, which he hoped would be satisfactory. In this letter, the Under-Secretary stated, in reply to a letter of the 1st of August, respecting the free pardon which his Majesty had been pleased to grant to 246 persons, convicts in New South Wales:—"I am directed by Lord Glenelg, to acquaint you, that Governor Arthur has done this, except in the case of ten indi-
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viduals, who have forfeited all claim to this act of clemency." He ought to state that the pardon was directed for 246 persons—the whole number being 264. He only made an exception in the cases of those, who had previously been committed for some other offences—such as creating riots, or machine-breaking. With respect to these parties, it was thought that some difference should be made.
Mr. Humeasked, if all who were transported to New South Wales at the time for the offences mentioned, were to have the benefit of the pardon?
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the order made no distinction.
Subject dropped.

COMMON FIELDS' ENCLOSURE BILL.
Mr. C. A. Pelham Mr. C. A. Pelham moved the Order of the day, for the consideration of the Lords' amendments to this Bill.
Mr. Wakleyobjected to the amendments being taken into consideration, as they had not been printed, and suggested that they should be postponed till Friday. So far as he had read the amendments, he thought them decided improvements to the Bill, but he was anxious to consider them more carefully.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerremarked, that if hon. Members were ignorant of the nature of the amendments, the best way to acquire a knowledge of them, was to proceed to consider them.
Mr. Warburtonobserved, that the Lords' amendments made the Bill much more popular than before.
The House divided: Ayes 60; Noes 5 Majority 55.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Ewart, W.

Angerstein, J

Fergusson, rt. hon. R. C.

Anson, hon. Colonel

Fitzroy, Lord C.

Bagshaw, J.

Freshfield J. W.

Barclay, C.

Grey, Sir G.

Baring, F. T.

Harvey, D. W.

Baring, T.

Jones, T.

Beckett, rt. hon. Sir J.

Lennox, Lord G.

Bews, T.

Lincoln, Earl of

Blake, M. J.

Loch, J.

Blamire, W.

Lowther, J. H.

Borthwick, P.

Lygon, Colonel

Bridgeman, H.

Lynch, A. H.

Brotherton, J.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Brownrigg, S.

Macleod R.

Buckingham, J. S.

Manners, Lord C. S.

Callaghan, D.

Maule, hon. F.

Chalmers, P.

O'Brien, C.

Codrington, Sir E.

Pattison, J.

Duncombe, T.

Pryse, P.

Elley, Sir J.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

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Robinson, G. R.

Trench, Sir F.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Ross, C.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Russell, Lord J.

Wall, C. B.

Scrope, G. P.

Warburton, H.

Seymour, Lord

Wilks, J.

Sibthorp, Col.

Young, G. F.

Smith, B.

Thomson, rt. hon. C.P.

TELLERS.

Thornley, T.

Pelham, A.

Tracy, C. H.

Stanley, E J.

List of the NOES.

Hume, J.

Trevor, hon. A.

Ponsonby, hon. W.

TELLERS.

Potter, R.

Leader, J. T.

Ruthven, E.

Wakley, J.

The further consideration of the amendments, after some had been agreed to, was postponed, when messengers from the Lords appeared, requesting a conference on the subject-matter of the amendments to the Prisoners' Counsel Bill.

PRISONERS' COUNSEL BILL.
A Conference with the Lords was held on the subject of the Counsel for Prisoners' Bill, when the Lords communicated their reasons for not agreeing to the Commons' amendments. Subject to be taken into consideration on Friday.

BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.
Mr. Hardy Mr. Hardy moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of this Bill.
Mr. A. Trevoropposed the third reading, on the ground that the measure went to disfranchise a great portion of the poorer class of voters, and moved, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a third time that day three months.
The House divided on the original motion: Ayes 50; Noes 1:—Majority 49.

List of the AYES for the First Division.

Aglionby, H.

Hindley, C.

Angerstein, J.

Hoskins, K.

Bagshaw, J.

Hume, J.

Baring, F. T.

Leader, J. T.

Barnard, E. G.

Lennox, Lord G.

Beckett, rt. hn. Sir J.

Lowther, J. H.

Bewes, T.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Bridgeman, H.

Macleod, R.

Brotherton, J.

Martin, T.

Brownrigg, S.

Murray, rt. hon. J. A.

Burrell, Sir C.

Pattison, J.

Chalmers, P.

Pelham, hon. C. A.

Codrington, Sir E.

Philips, M.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Potter, R.

Duncombe, T.

Pryse, P.

Fergusson, rt. hn. R. C.

Reid, Sir J. R.

Freshfield, J. W.

Rice, rt. hon. T. S.

Grey, Sir G.

Rolfe, Sir R. M.

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Ruthven, E.

Warburton, H.

Scrope, G. P.

Whalley, Sir S.

Seymour, Lord

Wilks, J.

Smith, J. A.

Williams, W.

Smith, B.

Young, G. F.

Stanley, E. J.

Thompson, Alderman

TELLERS.

Thornley, T.

Blamire, W.

Wall, C. B.

Wakley, T.

List of the NOES.

Palmer, G.

TELLERS.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Trevor, A.

Bill read a third time.
On the question that the Bill do pass,
Colonel Sibthorp Colonel Sibthorp moved the addition of a clause for preventing bribery on the part of individuals connected with Government, by giving away comfortable situations, &c.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought that the effect of such a clause would be to weaken the general provisions of the Bill, which already, in the most effectual manner, provided against such practices on the part of Government.
Mr. A. Trevorsupported the clause.
The House divided: Ayes 2; Noes 45: —Majority 43.
Clause rejected.
Mr. A. Trevor Mr. A. Trevor moved that the 4th Clause be struck out of the Bill.
The House divided: Ayes 4; Noes 44: —Majority 40.
Mr. A. Trevornext moved the omission from the 5th Clause, as we understood, of certain words, the effect of which was to render voters guilty of bribery for ever incapable of holding office, place, or emolument under the Crown. He did not think that the punishment ought to be rendered perpetual.
Sir F. Trenchseconded the motion.
The House divided; Ayes 3; Noes 38: —Majority 35.
Bill passed.
We give the Lists of the first division; the others were so similar, adding on some of them Sir C. Broke Vere, Sir Frederick Trench, Mr. Borthwick, Mr. Freshfield, or Mr. Brownrigg to the minority, that it is needless to repeat them.

Preamble
MINUTES.] Bills. Received the Royal Assent:—Slave-Owners' Compensation; Slave Treaties; Militia Pay; Registration of Births; Secular Jurisdiction (York and Ely); Medical Witnesses; St. Clement (Oxford) Marriages Validity; Creditors (Scotland); Exchequer Officers; Valuation of Land (Ireland).—Read a third time:—Militia Pay; Greek Loan; Westminster Small Debts; Stannaries Court: County Elections.—Read a second time:—Consolidated Fund; Exchequer Bills; Grand Jury Presentments (Ireland); Copyright; List of Voters; Municipal Funds; Municipal Boundaries; Municipal Jurisprudence; Municipal Elections.—Read a first time:—Public Works (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY, from the Friends of Temperance Reformation, against allowing Grocers to sell Spirits.—By the Earl of ROSSLYN and Lord WHARNCLIFFE, from various places, against Inns and Alehouses Bill.