Sitting of 19 May 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. DUNLOP, from the Magistrates of the Calton, Glasgow, against the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. DIVETT, from a great Number of Places, for the Abolition of the increased Duty on Spirit Licenses.

NEWSPAPERS.
Mr. Roebuckpresented a Petition from Leeds, signed by 700 persons, and several others from places the names of which did not reach us, against the Stamp Duties on Newspapers. The lion, and learned Gentleman, in supporting the petitions, said that the desire expressed in them had now become very general throughout the country, and he trusted that his Majesty's Ministers would, without further delay, accede to the popular feeling. It appeared, indeed, to be conceived by Government that certain existing fiscal regulations prevented them from taking off these duties; and this argument the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his predecessors had always put forward. For his (Mr. Roebuck's) own part, however, he was convinced that if the Stamp Duties on Newspapers were taken off, the increase of the duty on paper and on advertisements would more than make up the deficiency. It was necessary that the people of this country should have an adequate

1197
proper press. He did not wish, in saying this, to utter a single word as to the mode in which the proceedings of that House were reported. He would ask, however, how the people of this country were to know the laws and the proceedings of the Legislature but from newspapers? Yet the truth was, that almost all the newspaper press of the present day was far beneath the intelligence and morality of the country, with the exception perhaps of some very few cases, among which he might mention The Examiner and The Standard. He wished the Stamp Duties on Newspapers to be taken off, because with them would be destroyed a monopoly which but too frequently was made the means of exercising a most improper and injurious effect on the public mind.
Petition laid on the Table.

COMMUTATION OF TITHES.
Mr. Gilbert J. Heathcotehad a Petition to present, to which he would call the particular attention of the House. It related to the subject of Tithes, and contained a complaint against a most respectable Clergyman of the Church of England, for harsh conduct in the mode of enforcing payment of his tithes. It was with much regret that he felt himself called upon, in the performance of a public duty, to impugn the conduct of this Gentleman, who was non-resident. He should, in the few observations he would make, endeavour to discharge his duty in a way least offensive to the feelings of the individual. The petition was that of an individual, John Gibbins, residing in the parish of Long Sutton, in the county of Lincoln. He was a farmer and grazier, a most respectable man, and quite incapable of deceiving him. Before he had presented the petition he had acted with the greatest fairness towards the Clergyman, for he had written to him on the subject, and delayed presenting it till that Gentleman was fully informed of the nature of the petition. The petitioner stated, that his lands lay in five different parishes, in all of which he paid tithe. The boundaries of these parishes were undefined, the consequence of which was, that he was sometimes called upon by one Clergyman to pay tithe which he had previously paid to another. Some differences on the subject of tithe arose between him and the Rev. Mr. Bennet, the vicar of Long Sutton and of another parish, and a correspondence
1198
took place between them on the subject. Having read that correspondence, it appeared to him that the petitioner was quite willing to come to some agreement. The petitioner states, that he frequently urged the Vicar to enter into some arrangement, rather than get involved in the expenses and trouble of law proceedings. He refused to do so, however, and continued to harass and annoy the petitioner by all the means which his situation as Vicar placed within his reach, and he lately instituted a suit in Chancery against him. This, as every person acquainted with the Court of Chancery must know, would turn out a costly and most troublesome business to the petitioner. The petitioner prayed the House to alter the present tithe system by the substitution of a just and well-regulated measure of commutation, and also that the boundaries of parishes might be ascertained. This would put an end to that litigation, and those differences which were constantly arising between Clergymen and their parishioners, and which must be highly injurious to the best interests of the Established Church. Something should be done to settle the Tithe Question finally. When so much had been said on the Irish Tithe Question, and so much time expended on it, the House would do well to consider that there were subjects of complaint also in England which demanded their attention.
The petition was brought up:—on the question, that it be laid upon the Table,
Mr. Russellsaid, he did not rise for the purpose of impeaching the petition; but as it contained very serious allegations against a most respectable Clergyman, he felt it is duty to make a few observations upon it, and to give to the petition the short answer to its allegations which he had received from the Clergyman himself. He was not only the Vicar of this parish, but the lay impropriator of the tithes. They were his hereditary property, his fee-simple estate. It was not from any feeling of personal hostility to the petitioner, but for the purpose of protecting his just rights, that he instituted proceedings at law against him at the recommendation of his law adviser. As the matter was now depending in a Court of Justice it was not quite fair on the part of his opponent to present a petition, which might prejudice a cause now in a course of legal investigation, The Rev, Mr. Bennet, in

1199
his answer, stated that the allegations of the petition were at variance with the truth; that the lands occupied by the petitioner are wholly within the same parish; that he, at different times, accepted receipts for the payment of his tithes, purporting that the lands occupied by him were all within the parish of Sutton; that Mr. Bennet never insisted upon having his tithes in kind. On the contrary, in March, 1833, and since that time, the petitioner said he would pay them in kind, though he well knew that the Vicar had neither house nor yard in which he could conveniently receive them. This the petitioner insisted upon doing, though he paid for tithe only five shillings an acre, which was not one-fourth of what he in justice ought to pay. The Clergyman stated, that being unable to come to any amicable arrangement, he was obliged to place the matter in the hands of his solicitor. The gravamen of the petition was, that the Vicar insisted upon getting his tithes in kind, though in two instances the petitioner himself was the person who insisted on paying them in kind, well knowing that there was no convenience for receiving them. The litigation of Clergymen with their parishioners was a matter very much to be regretted, but when their just claims were resisted, as in the present case, they had no other remedy but to go to law. He was not in the slightest degree acquainted with either of the parties, but he considered it his duty to do an act of justice to this Clergyman when his character was thus attacked. He would do the same for any Clergyman similarly circumstanced. Mr. Bennet he had reason to know was distinguished for his liberality and in ninety-nine cases out of an hundred was content with less than he was justly entitled to.
Petition to lie on the Table.

EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Mr. Wyserose to move, pursuant to a notice giver at the beginning of this Session, for leave to bring in a Bill for the establishing a Board of National Education, to promote the advancement of Elementary Education in Ireland; the first of a series of measures which he trusted he might be permitted, as circumstances should allow, to submit to the House for the amelioration, more general diffusion, and permanent support of education in that country. He had placed his
1200
notice early on the Order-Book, not with any factious or partisan design to embarrass this Ministry or to assist that,—so high and national a subject would, in his mind have been profaned by a limited and temporary application,—but from a deep and sacred conviction, of many years' standing, that of all great objects of national policy, which could engage the attention of subject or ruler, this was by far the greatest;—great now, great at all times; not a helper only, in the building up of society and civilization, but the only foundation on which all society and civilization must finally rest. He who neglected this, might construct what social edifice he pleased; he would soon find, to his cost, that he had been but "an architect of ruins." He might range institution on institution, without that,—which alone could give the structure cohesion and solidity,—the pack of cards, at the first breath of civil commotion would come tumbling down. Constitutions were good and necessary, but a good Constitution might be long in giving a good education: it was scarcely in the nature of moral things that a good national education should not, ere long, render necessary and certain a good Constitution. These were his opinions in 1831.—enlarged and confirmed, and matured, they were more than ever his opinions in 1835. With little or no encouragement,—with apathy or hostility (and there were cases and times in which apathy was worse than hostility) to check even a mention of the subject,—with scarcely ten auxiliaries in this House, which now boasted its almost unanimous anxiety for some such measure, he had ventured, in the former year, with no hope of immediate success, but with a certain confidence of future, to solicit even a momentary attention to the first Bill ever introduced into Parliament for Irish Education. That Bill he should have pressed to a positive decision of the House, notwithstanding all the difficulties with which it was surrounded, had he not apprehended embarrassing, by such discussions, the progress of the Reform Bill then pending; and against which was arrayed sectarian as well as political prejudices, in either country. He received, too, the assurance, that many of its provisions would be reduced to early trial, by the then Government, in the form of an experiment; and that new aid would be thus afforded in every future discussion, from the strong evidence of experience.

1201
The Bill was proceeding to a second reading in September—when Parliament was prorogued; and in the following October, the then Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Stanley), with a courage and wisdom which bore, indeed, a favourable contrast to the pusillanimity and purblind policy of former Governments, constituted in his "Instructions" to the Duke of Leinster, the present Board of Irish Education, on almost the precise model of the Bill. More than two years had now elapsed since that important experiment was first risked. In despite of every evil prophecy, calculated and intended to realize what it foreboded—in despite of every impediment which disappointed favoritism, political and religious bigotry, and, he was willing to believe, honest, though mistaken apprehensions had thrown in its way,—the experiment (as he should be enabled amply to prove in Committee) had as far as it was intended to go, most thoroughly succeeded. He might be asked, then, why disturb its progress, or endanger the already effected good, by attempting something better? Simply, because this progress was at this very moment exposed, from the want of some legislative sanction, to continual disturbance; and, secondly, because the good on which they had to congratulate themselves was far, indeed, below the standard, which as certain as that he was standing in the House of Commons, they were fully able to attain. The present system was confined and comparatively feeble in its operation; the distribution of its powers and duties (he had pointed out the defect in the beginning, and the results had since justified his apprehensions), was injudicious; and above all, were it to combine every excellence that human system could boast of, the nation had no guarantee for its duration: its annihilation, like its creation, might be the work of a day. It was right, perhaps, at the outset, considering not merely the hostility of one party, but the comparative ignorance of all, to invest it with this provisional character. Some prejudices must be wooed to be won, and where moral changes were in contemplation, no prejudice was to be altogether disregarded; light, too, was to be poured in, by degrees, on the darkness of the public: the very feeling that it was an experiment disarmed, and invited attention and patience for the result. But that time was passed, and to delay now was
1202
not wisdom, but indolence or cowardie The very dread that it would be allowed to continue in this wavering ambiguous state, dulled co-operation on the part of the public. Few men would zealously interest themselves in consolidating a fabric which might be destroyed the next hour. That these were not visionary fears, the conduct of the late Ministry gave ample proof. The right hon. Baronet himself,—though far superior in extended and rational views to those around him,—dwelling, indeed, apart from his colleagues in an intellectual atmosphere of his own—gave but a cheerless and cold assent to the measure; and as to his Irish supporters, they bowed, it was true, but with a most resolute reluctance, and claiming to preserve all their old hostility, to what many amongst them must have considered a very unworthy concession on the part of their leader. Now, what protected the system against these openly-avowed feelings in future? Nothing, surely, but the want of power. He would not leave it thus at the hazard of a die; if it were, as was averred, a great national good, it behoved the nation, and the House as the guardians of the nation, to see that it be placed not only beyond all danger, but all contingency. Nothing but the law, nothing at least so well as a law, could affect that. If it were to be conveyed a glorious gift, in full possession of the nation, it must be by solemn Act of Parliament, and not by an ordonnance of the King, or a bye-law rescript of an Irish Secretary. Nor was this a matter which, under pretence of complex detail, and immature inquiry required to be prorogued. The complexity apprehended might by the course he proposed, be easily simplified; there was little need of further inquiry,—they had inquired and hesitated enough—their duty now was to act. In this he echoed only the voice of the times, the cry of every street, and of every part of the country. Something bold, broad, and durable, must be done; and the sooner done, for the cause of the country and of education, the better. We now lived in a new world, and, with other minds than those which had preceded us, must work up our institutions to their level, unless we wished to expose the whole march of our social and political existence to jerks, and jars, and disasters,—we must look forward as well as back. It was not enough to repeat precedents, we must create them. Our ancestors

1203
might be entitled to our veneration, but we owed virtue and happiness to our posterity. Steam had produced a great, and was likely to produce a still greater change in the combination and action of society.—space seemed annihilated,—towns had melted into each other,—men lived almost like one great family, in the presence of each other,—facility of communication rendered men more sensible to every impulse public opinion had acquired more activity, extension and energy,—combination, for any given cause, was infinitely more easy. Add to these the wholesale changes in the power of production; the new markets created; the old which they displaced, the innumerable vicissitudes which all these created, not only in individual families, but in very large masses of the community;—and some estimate might be formed of the mighty, and in some degree perilous, power of this moral, as well as mechanical agent upon society. Much patience and much wisdom were requisite to enable men to use its gifts so that they might not be turned into curses,—and to emerge from the old into the new state to which they were hastening, with permanent, as well as temporary advantage. Nor did those shocks occur at a time when we could boast of much national prosperity. Civilization indeed seems to have attained, in many instances its perfection, but the machine was wound up to its last turn of the wheel, the pressure of our population was everywhere felt. How this was to be alleviated, whether by raising our resources or restraining our population, might be a matter of discussion amongst economists: but in either case, forethought, and moderation and activity, and intelligence,—habits which education only could produce,—were confessedly indispensable. Nor was this all: there was another social change, more powerful, perhaps, in its influence than either of the preceding. The Reform Bill was now law—the country had its legislation—therefore, its destinies were in its own hands. Parliament had consecrated the right, and admitted the exercise of self-government, to its lowest detail. They could not stop at the thresh-hold of Parliament. They must carry it down to corporations, to common juries, to parochial meetings: every citizen must in turn be governor and governed. These were functions to be exercised well, or not to be intrusted at all. Precisely in
1204
proportion to such exercise, was the good order or confusion, the health or ill case of the community. Would they, then, trust to chance such causes and consequences? For the discharge of such high and difficult duties, would mere good intentions suffice? The very day the Legislature passed the Reform Bill, it bound itself by a solemn moral compact to provide for the proper working of the measure; otherwise it conferred upon the country, not a blessing, but a curse. And how was it possible the measure should work well, with such instruments to work it with, as an ignorant population? They might as well trust fire-arms to the hands of a child. Parliamentary Reform he boldly asserted, had rendered Education Reform indispensable. Every hour it was delayed, detracted from that great gift. The passing generation might not be within their power, but they were still masters of the future; young England was in their hands; they could still determine what should be her character and her history; and if such were their power, what must be their responsibility? Upon them it depended who should be the future benefactors or criminals of their country. But, in asserting the necessity of rigorously attending to the education of the country at such a moment as the present, "are you quite sure," he might be asked "that education is at any time necessary, or even useful to the people?" He should not detain the House with that futile question; it was only amazing it had ever been listened to, or even started in that House. Those who stood forward in its support were the best refutation of the paradox themselves. But folly had been praised ere this, and there was no absurdity so monstrous, which might not find its fond or fantastic abettors. On what did their argument rest? On false data, erroneous assumptions, on conclusions which they could not believe, on which they would be sorry to act. The criminal returns of France, even on the shewing of Guerry, were no evidence against a sound system of education; on the shewing of Dupin they were strongly ill favor of it; so also were those of Prussia, if they were to believe Dr. Julius; of Belgium if they were to believe Mounier; of Spain if they were to believe Laborde; and even those of England and Ireland, (and need he add Scotland), notwithstanding all the contortions to which they had been subjected,

1205
were no less proof, that crime retreated before instruction, and that if it had not retreated more rapidly than it hitherto had done, it was solely because instruction had not begun sufficiently soon, been sufficiently good, or sufficiently applicable, to the individual place or time for which it was intended. They set about educating, in general, when miseducation had already set in—they took the grownup boy and not the plastic infant—they had to undo, afar more difficult task, than to do—they carried on the process which ought to be purely mental, by purely mechanical means, with some knowledge of slates, desks and primmers, it was true, but with little or none of the science of mind, that was, without the only knowledge, absolutely indispensable to our purpose—they educated but half the being, gave him an intellectual without a moral, or a moral education without an intellectual, or a miserable smattering of both. They made him a reading, writing, and counting machine, whom God designed for a thinking, feeling, acting fellow man—they gave him precisely what he did not want, and refused him precisely what he did; making the artisan a Latin scholar, and the labourer a pothouse politician; and when they had effected this, and gone on for years and years,—and for generation after generation, effecting it, they suddenly turned round, amazed, that the thorn produced sloes, and consoled their self-love with invectives against education; whereas if they were not ignorant as well as vain, they ought to direct their indignation against their own utter indolence and incapacity, and endeavour to correct their awkwardness, instead of discarding the instrument they had so grossly misapplied. The great point, then, was, not whether they were to have education, but of what kind that education was to be. Knowledge, in itself was neither good nor evil; it was the application of knowledge which determined either. In this matter it was absolutely necessary they should decide. People seemed to think that, because they did not educate, no education is going on; but did they know what education meant? Every thing was education; every one, in reference to the young mind, was more or less, an educator. Sit as neutral and as idle as they pleased, the child was still educating, in one way or other, and at every instant before their eyes. But, of what kind was this edu-
1206
cation? Let them go into the alleys, fetid with the disease and vice of our luxurious capitals,—let them go into the gin-palaces,—into the crowded factories, and there they would find an appalling answer. He who did not entirely and extensively educate would suffer miseducation to go on, when he might prevent it; and, so far, virtually miseducates. He was guilty of the guilt, and author of the misery which every where festered around him. Could the patriot endure—dared the Christian permit that? What more important question, then, to the conscientious man, than what really constitutes a good or bad system of national education? Schools were not good education, nor were books, nor boards, nor inspectors, nor grants, good education; they were but machinery,—the means—that by which good education might be propagated and perpetuated. He cared not so much what the canal was, as what the canal carried. What number of schools were established, but what the schools taught. How was he to know whether it were rank poison, or the bread of life, they were bestowing all this while? Until they were sure of that, they had no right to bestow it at all. The increase of schools, if the schools be bad, was the increase only of evil; instead of being a matter of joy, it was and ought to be, a matter of grief and reproach. The first thing to be done, then was to assure themselves of this goodness,—that done, it became a merit, a duty to extend the schools as widely as possible. But of what use to extend them, unless it was also provided that they should last? The better and more numerous they were, the more important. These three points embraced in his mind, all the conditions of a good system of national education. It was here that machinery became useful. They looked for means to obtain with facility and certainty, the point which, without such means, they should attain with difficulty or not at all. What, then, were those means? Was national education to be left to the Government or to itself? Was there to be system or no system? Which of the two principles, the directive or voluntary was the best? This question might be argued for ever, by taking the extremes; but it was the very mode of arguing it he would avoid. He would not give education altogether into the hands of the Government, much less would he leave it altogether to itself,

1207
There was a middle term, where neither the people nor Government monopolized or usurped, but where both might usefully combine. And why should they not combine? Did they not do so everyday? What was police, what public works, charitable institutions, but a series of similar combinations? Was all this a solecism, an evil, a public wrong? Why not leave also these great national objects, as well as education, to find their level? Why not leave them to the ordinary laws of demand and supply? But the fact was, there was no analogy between the case of education and other markets. Our moral wants were not regulated like our physical. The less food the more we hunger for it; the less education, the less appetite for education we feel. Nor was it quite true either, in the material world that supply always followed demand; it very often created, and should in many cases precede it. Canals had as often produced commerce, as commerce produced canals. The whole of the argument had arisen from too precipitate a generalization of Adam Smith's views of bounties and prohibitions. Facts too were against it. Were he called on to point out the precise spots where public education in every respect was the most flourishing, assuredly he should direct them to those very countries where the directive system was most, and the voluntary least, in vogue? But the chief difficulty remained—how to regulate this combination. What share was Government to have, and what the people, in contributions, powers, and duties? He answered that question by another. On what principle did they combine! They united for mutual assistance. The Government could do some things better than the people, the people, again, many other things better than the Government. Let each do, what it could do best. The Government could impel, enlighten, and control; the people could aid and maintain. Let the duties and powers, then, of each be regulated by this simple principle: let the Government provide and extend a good system of education to all the people, (it was the Government of all,) and let all the people, in return, support and perpetuate such a system when provided. Such a system had never yet existed in Ireland. She had never had a national education composed of such elements. Her education had not been for all; it had not been
1208
under the direction of the Government; it had not been maintained by the sympathies of the people. It had been a mere machine for the maintenance of Protestantism and oligarchy—fetters to bind the mind, as there were statutes to bind the arms of the country. Yet once in Ireland there were great and good foundations for a noble structure. He should not insist on their early literary glories, though he might well summon a whole line of English writers to bear testimony to the early solicitude of the nation for instruction. Bede, in the seventh century, noticed the number of Saxons, who came over, in crowds, to Ireland, and who, as William of Malmsbury observed, were not only most willingly received, but maintained at the public charge, supplied with books, and taught without office or reward. Spenser admits that Ireland had the use of letters long before England. "To Ireland," according to Littleton, "England chiefly owed her knowledge." Many Saxons out of England resorted thither for instruction, and brought back the use of letters to their ignorant countrymen. "Ireland," says Bayle "has given the most distinguished professors to the most famous Universities in Europe." He might have added, in many cases, they had been the founders. "It was," he continues, as the historians of the time declare, the most civilized country in Europe; the nursery of the sciences, &c., &c." Were these eulogies unsupported by fact? The monasteries of Lindisfarne,—the great college of Mayo,—"the Mayo" as it was called "of the Saxons," dedicated to the exclusive use of English students, who at one time amounted to no fewer than 2,000, but which, on its rebuilding in 1830, by the English, was prohibited from receiving Irishmen—Borrishole, surrounded with forty literary institutions,—were all so many illustrative evidences of the intellectual activity and literary munificence of the nation. What, then, had become of those institutions? What! Ask those who expelled the teachers, burnt the books, ruined the buildings—ask those who civilized Ireland, they would give you the answer. But England and Protestantism gave, it was said, large and wide compensations—the parochial and diocesan schools. Both were due to Catholicity and Ireland. The right hon. Baronet who made such assertions, some nights ago, seemed not to have known, or to have

1209
forgotten that this very system had existed from the thirteenth century, and still existed in almost every Catholic country in Europe. The council of Lyons, in 1245, decreed "that in all cathedral churches and others provided with adequate revenues, there should be established a school and teacher by the bishop and chapter, who should teach the clerks and other poor scholars gratis, in grammar, and that for this purpose should be assigned to him a prebend." This injunction was further extended by one of the General Councils of Lateran, and finally confirmed in its 23rd Session by the Council of Trent. This was the origin of popular education throughout Europe. There were strong traces of it in England, and still stronger in Scotland. The parochial schools date from an ancient Act of the Scotch Parliament, a transcript of the old canon law, and not as Dr. Chalmers supposes, from the later law of William, or the gradual innovation of the Reformation. The Reformation adopted them, as it did many other Catholic institutions—they were preserved but not created. The law of 28 Henry 8th, c. 15, indeed, bore internal evidence of this origin;—telling "beades in English," is coupled with literary instruction. By that law, the popular education was not for the first time established, but sanctioned by the new ecclesiastical authority instead of the old. The statute, almost a copy of the canon, directs every Archbishop and Bishop to give a corporal oath to every person on his admission to any dignity, benefice, office, or promotion spiritual; that he shall, to his wit and cunning, endeavour himself to learn, instruct, and teach the English tongue to all and every being under his rule; to be, and keep, or cause to be kept, within the place, territory, or parish, where he shall have preeminence, rule, benefice, or promotion, a school to learn English; if any children of his parish came to him to learn the same, taking for the keeping of the said school such convenient stipend as in the said land accustomably used to be taken. Archbishops and Bishops, omitting to give the said oath are to forfeit 3l. 6s. 8d., and beneficed clergymen not observing it, to forfeit 6s. 8d. for the first offence, and 20 s. for the second, and their benefice for the third. Here, then, was quite as good a basis for a system of parochial education, as that which existed in Scotland:
1210
in both countries it lay in the hands of the clergy. How came it that it produced such very different results? Oaths, fines, laws, were ineffectual in Ireland; the whole scheme failed: in Scotland it took root and flourished. The reason is clear. The system in Scotland was national; in Ireland it was not. The schools were English—the people Irish:—the schools became Protestant—the people remained Catholic. It was not education, but proselytism: it began by attempting to proselytise to England; it now continues to proselytise to Protestantism. The supply was there, but no one came for it; the demand diminishing, the supply soon fell off. There were no scholars, and soon no masters. Parochial schools were dispensed with in many cases—the Statute, itself, despised as "obsolete, impracticable, superstitious;" but the oath was still taken, and the tithe, though subject to such condition, retained. Neither penalty nor forfeiture was enforced:—the Bishops who were the persons to enforce it, were co-partners in the offence. The Bishops achieved, on a larger scale, in the instance of diocesan schools, what each of their beneficed clergy achieved on a smaller. Burdens and duties imposed upon them both by law and religion, they contrived gradually to shift from their own shoulders to those of the laity,—as in the case of charity and church repairs, so also in that of education, the obligation was forgotten, but the funds given for its performance were kept. The laity had thus to pay twice over for the same thing: both payments heavy, and the duty ill-performed after all. Had the Protestant clergy of Ireland been more tenacious of their oaths, and less of their resources, like the Lutheran clergy of Russia and Weimar, or the Presbyterians of Scotland, it would not now have been necessary to call upon Parliament for a 35,000 l. grant, nor to mourn over the immense cost and injurious results of most of the education systems of Ireland. This, however, was not their object; the object of the Church, and therefore of the State, which was but its servile instrument, was not education, but submission. Not only did they shut up their own schools, but they would allow no other. From William 3rd. down to George 3rd. knowledge was almost as much interdicted to the Papist as liberty. Catholics not only were not permitted to endow schools, but parents

1211
were not permitted to educate their own children. It was penal to give them education abroad; it was penal to give them education at home, unless it came from the Protestant clergy. As in Scotland, so in Ireland, zeal for popular education was ascribed to the Reformation; but in neither case was this correct. Such as it was, it both betrayed the hand, and bore the license stamp of the task-master. But this was but one stain in a statute of blood,—not of blood only, but of cruelty far beyond blood. It found where the soul chiefly lay, got at it, and attempted to crush it there. If the son became a Protestant, he could gavel his father's estate. Well; the object of these Protestant schools was to make him a Protestant. Now see how all this worked for the social and moral improvement of the nation. Take a father, weak enough to rely on the faith of these institutions for which he paid,—sending his son to one of these schools, the old inheritance of the nation—fearful of the laws, but still more fearful of ignorance—and awaiting with impatience his return. The child of his old age—loving and beloved at parting, came back with another creed and another heart—corrupted by the very law itself, the guardian of domestic duty and public morality—despising his father, envying his brother—grasping in thought already the bribe which the State, the Church—a Christian Church—held up to his avidity. These things seldom occurred,—but only, because they were seldom risked. The parent, who after one example of the kind, could send his child to such a school, instituted to teach rebellion to parents, hatred to brothers, was no parent; he deserved the retribution of despised grey-hairs, and unsupported old age brought down in sorrow to the grave. Now, if he took the alternative, and educated abroad, was the grievance less intolerable? Picture to yourselves his son outstripping all competitors in some foreign University; returning home crowned with every literary honour; and met, on his first landing on his native shores, not with the congratulations of his country, but with the brand and punishment of a criminal. Yet with all this, Protestantism did not increase, Catholics did not diminish—the only effect the system had was to destroy or pervert education. If it gave any, it was miseducation: to the Protestant, the education of an arrogant master; to the Catho-
1212
lic—of an indigent slave. This "national education," as it was preposterously called, this "national religion," not more national than the education, which was its handmaid, was to civilize each, and it barbarized both. Empty cathedrals and ruinous schools were its monuments; a coterie instead of a church, and a corporation assuming the name of a country, were its administrators. In the reign of Anne and of the Georges, the evil was somewhat seen; but was it remedied? Far from it; on the rulers of the country went, in the same blindness, flinging the blame on the people, which should only be visited on themselves—attempting to remedy what was irremediable, and to perform what was impracticable. The 8th Geo. 1st. empowered Bishops and Dignitaries to grant two acres, if a Bishop, and, if others, one, of glebe-land, for Protestant schools. The 5th Geo. 2nd. c. 4, gave similar power to tenants in fee-tail or for life, to grant to churchwardens for ever, one acre of 30 s. yearly value, "for the use of a resident schoolmaster, to teach the English tongue to such children of poor Papists and all others as would resort to the same." But did the Catholics resort to these schools, or were there others to take their place? He begged the attention of the House to the application for the Charter-schools, which followed soon after. It declared, in very express terms, "that in the provinces of Leinster, Munster, and Con-naught, the Papists far exceeded the Protestants, of all denominations, in numbers;" that there were great tracts of land entirely inhabited by Papists; that they were kept by their clergy in great ignorance of true religion; and that the creating of Protestant English schools in those places was absolutely necessary for their conversion; that the English parish schools already established were not sufficient for the purpose, nor did the residence of the Protestant clergy fully answer that end. "That it was necessary, therefore, that some other place of education might be found," &c. &c. But why did it not answer its end?—and, not answering, why did not the State resume the emoluments, with its functions, into its own hands? Instead of altering the system, the State deigned not even to inquire into it—it attempted to remedy old blunders by adding new. The English parish schools were declared insufficient; the clergy, instead of being compelled to make them

1213
sufficient, were allowed to throw themselves on the State. The laity were to be taxed for the defalcation of the Church—the Parliament had to pay masters for duties which the clergy had sworn to perform. This was a monstrous pretension;—monstrous as it was, it was acceded to. The Charter-school system was established—the first instance of the interference of the State. Instead, however, of taking the funds and duties at once into its own hands, it abdicated its power,—it instituted new societies, as auxiliaries to the Church, from the taxes of the people, supported with buttresses which it ought to have taken down—and still called the system "national." The Charter-school system was ultra-fanatic—it was formed for the purpose; it out-churched the Church; it was determined to educate outright into Protestantism, and carry the nation by a coup de main. No longer waiting for the slow coming-in of the refractory, it tore the child from its mother's lap, changed the name, broke the links of its existence, and, creating orphanship in the life-time even of the parent, made it an alien in its home, poisoned the charities in their very source, and shook society to its very centre. If, amongst the rich, this cruel charity for "the souls of the poor benighted creatures," as a Pharisee of the day called them, created rebellious sons, amongst the poor it did worse—it deprived parents altogether of their children. Yet, for a long time this system was said to flourish; miracles were recounted of its grace and efficacy; Popery was supposed to be at its last gasp, and the great object fully effected;—yet years went on, and the Catholics were, still, millions. The Charter-schools contented themselves with the wages, and gave up the labour of the vineyards: they lost all energy, and preserved only the bigotry of their formation: unheeded and unwatched, they soon fell into a lethargy. In a short time there were no scholars but victims or renegades; no masters but profligates and sinecurists. To inquire was to accuse; the slightest complaint was an impeachment of Protestantism. Why should he detain the House with dwelling on their atrocities, on the cruelty of the teachers, the ignorance and immorality of the scholars; on the horrors of the schools of Sligo, Lisburne, and hundreds of others. 1,500,000 l. was lavished on an infamous bubble: the cost of each child was nearly 20 l. per
1214
annum, and of each apprentice 30 l., yet pupils, it was complained, were not to be had, and no one would take their apprentices. In any other country but Ireland it could not be believed that the voice of a Howard, crying aloud against such a social monster, should cry in vain. Yet he, and others like him, were not heard by the adder's ears of a corrupt Church and a venal Parliament. It was not till 1825 that the full light of day, broad and blazing, was let in on its atrocities. In that year Parliament instituted proceedings against its administrators, and solemnly declared "the evil was so monstrous it could not be corrected." The Parliament was a Tory, a Protestant, a Church-ridden, and Church-protecting Parliament; yet this education still continued to be called "national." The Charter system failed, and new "national" societies were called in, or rose up, to supply its place. The Association for the Suppression of Vice first appeared; it adopted a new tactique—the suavitèr in modo for the first time was added to the fortitèr in re. They could not take Popery by assault; circumvallation and mining were substituted; yet all was still Protestant; Protestant books, Protestant catechisms, Protestant preachers, and Protestant patrons. This was another specimen of "nationalising" instruction for a nation of Catholics. A host of similar joint-stock companies, for the curing of Catholic souls, rather than the instruction of Catholic minds—the Baptist, Hibernian, and others succeeded, terminating, at last, in the Kildare Place Society. It was not to be expected he should abuse the patience of the House with details of these, or other similarly formed, societies. Suffice it to say, the old system, though mitigated, still prevailed throughout. Always working in a corporation spirit, jobbing on the public necessities, fulfilling, very inadequately, their own ostentatious promises of success, they were totally inadequate to supply the enormous deficiencies of former systems. The Church had transferred its powers and duties to these educating clubs; it was now found necessary to transfer them anew from these educators to the Government. In 1819, the Lord-Lieutenant was empowered to advance money for building of schools under certain conditions, to voluntary subscribers. The form of proceeding was, in some particulars, objectionable.

1215
Application was to be made, by memorial, to the Lord-Lieutenant. The memorial was to be referred to Commissioners, who, on obtaining answers to queries as to the quantity of land proposed to be given for the school, the number of pupils, the cost of building, made grants to perpetual trustees (the Protestant minister and churchwarden of the parish), for the purpose. Here again was proselytism, with great difficulty of fulfilling the conditions, far too heavy and complicated, conjoined. The results, as might have been anticipated, were trifling. In this state lay education, when the Kildare Place Society arose. Its first manifesto indicated a wonderful softening of the old Protestantism spirit. It was at length openly avowed, that proselytism was a vain attempt. The Report set out with stating, that they had applied their efforts to the framing of "a system which, whilst it should afford the opportunities of education to every description of the lower classes of the people, might, at the same time, by keeping clear of all interference with the particular religious tenets of any, induce the whole to receive its benefits as one undivided body under one and the same system, and in the same establishment." Nothing could be better. Had such manifesto been adhered to, the Catholics, who at first crowded their schools, would have continued to crowd them still. How much a contrary conduct was pursued, it is surely unnecessary, after so many and such prolonged discussions, to remind this House. But, were the leaven of the old sectarian spirit perfectly expelled, he should still question whether the constitution of the body was not radically defective. It was a society unconnected with the Government, and collaterally only under its control. It was a great mistake not to have at once thrown aside all these companies, and formed, without further delay, a board,—national in the fullest sense of the word, linked with the executive on one side, and with the people on the other; but private interest, or mistaken prudence, prevailed. The Commissioners of 1812 (Twelfth Education Report) suggested another course. It was thought right, in order to try the experiment just noticed, to make a Parliamentary grant to an institution already in existence, rather than appoint a new Board for the purpose, as if innovation, and not the adaptation of the machinery
1216
to the purposes intended, was the point in question. The grant was made on this suggestion, and no sooner made, than principles conceded in the programme, and hitherto kept in the back ground, began to develope themselves. The Bible was required to be read without note or comment. The Catholics interpret the sacred writings on authority—the Protestants on private judgment. Here, then, was put to issue the cardinal demarcating tenet between the two great denominations. The usual evils of societies now followed. Patrons interfered—private feelings, sectarian hatreds, political animosities, sprung up. Compromises were, indeed, attempted by the Catholic clergy, but they failed. New violations of the primary rules constantly took place. Like all other preceding societies, it at last became, though under a mitigated form, proselytising. The New Reformation, then in its march, added fresh virulence to the quarrel,—the people, alarmed, drew off,—the Society was, comparatively left to itself,—education, as of old, became confined to a party,—the ancient evil was revived,—the public money was given to a section of the State,—and the great mass of the nation still continued without a "national education." Yet, all this time it must not be supposed that education had made no progress: much was done by the very obstacles which opposed it,—much by the times,—much by the Society itself. The mechanical portion of education was advanced—schools were built—books published—teachers, as it was called, "trained." More important than all, men began to think of education,—abuses were hinted at,—inquiry calmly, but surely, went on. The Commission on Irish education conferred an invaluable benefit on the country—it cleared away the rubbish of the old structures, and shewed how a new structure might be raised. The Committee of 1824, still more precise, determined a plan,—the Catholic hierarchy almost unanimously seconded it; their joint recommendations were repeated in the Report of the Committee of this House in 1830, of which his right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was chairman. Yet all these inquiries, all these recommendations, all these solicitations, were neutralized, eluded, and opposed by the mole-eyed, anti-national policy of the then Government. The old machinery, rickety as it was, was

1217
continued; it was urged that this Protestant education ought to be accepted by a Catholic population; as if in any question of a delicate and difficult nature it was sufficient to say "ought." You might offer to sell, but you could not force others to buy. A system must be acceptable, to induce people to accept. The failure of the Kildare Place Society proceeded from a total ignorance of the state of Ireland, and of the laws of mind. It really refused, whilst it affected to give; it deferred education to a period which was likely never to occur,—till the nation became Protestant. Such a system was not national,—for such a system the nation had no right to pay. But it was sufficient to destroy; we had a more difficult task imposed on us—to build up. The failure of the Kildare Place Society, however, not only decided what should be done, but also how to do it. They had to take things as they really were, to educate not for some visionary contingent state of the country, but for the living actual man. They had to get rid of joint-purse converting societies, private patronage, and oligarchical pretensions, and reinstate the nation in its original rights: to make education popular, it must be an education for the people. Hitherto there had been no national education; but there was no good reason why there should not be. He for one, could never see any circumstance which should forbid the experiment. He had scarcely been honoured with a seat in this House when he made efforts to put his conviction into practice; not only to act up to the recommendations of 1824 and 1830, but to go far beyond them. He drew up a series of queries in February 1831, relative to a most extensive plan of education,—an education in every sense "national," and addressed them to the Catholic Prelates, and to several of the most distinguished members of the Protestant and Presbyterian communions. The answers received were, with few exceptions, perfectly consonant to his views. He brought in the Bill to which he had already referred, embodying a portion of those views, in September; and as he had stated, Mr. Stanley,—originally opposed to the arrangement,—addressed, in the October following, instructions enforcing many of its provisions to the Duke of Leinster; and with a spirit which, considering the difficulties he had to contend with even in
1218
his own department, did him high honour, established at once the existing Board. The experiment had been, as he had already observed, satisfactory; but the defects existing at its formation existed still; above all, it still retained its temporary character, it was still no more than an experiment. The object of his Bill was to remove the defects, to extend the powers, and finally to render the operations sure, and the duration permanent. But he went beyond this,—he began with elementary,—but he extended his views to a reform of every other class of, education—from elementary to superior. This might appear an ambitious attempt far beyond the powers of any single individual, much less of so humble a one as himself. Perhaps so; but there was no harm in tracing a broad and consistent plan. Harmony was a matter of great importance, and when once a just principle was established, the working it out into its details was comparatively a matter of little difficulty. He proposed, in the first instance, to recognise the directive principle, to establish a Board of National Education in Dublin. The construction of this Board should be as impartial as possible. It should be composed, therefore, of various persuasions, professions, and interests. The Protestant and Catholic Archbishops, and a clergyman of the Presbyterian body, should constitute the clerical—five other Members, one from each of the four provinces of Ireland, and one from Dublin, the lay portion of the body. This had nearly been effected in the organization of the existing Board. It required only the addition of a Member from Ulster to complete the lay Members. If it were right that the minister should have a council, it was not less right that the Council should have a responsible Minister for its head. The Chief Secretary for Ireland, for the time being, ought to be its President, and thus ex officio the Minister of Public Instruction for Ireland. He would give the appointment of the Members to the Lord-Lieutenant. He had considered maturely that question; and there was less difficulty in vesting it in his hands than leaving it to election of the people, or to election of the Board itself. Ireland, divided as it is, would send in partisans to a body, which, of all other bodies in Ireland, would require calmness and impartiality. Entering the Board itself, it would ultimately convert the Board into a close cor-

1219
poration. He saw no just ground for apprehension of an increase of Government Patronage. This was not the day of prerogative. In a free country the Government was really the servant of the country. If the representative body were truly such, and there was placed under its control all the great departments of the State, their power might be increased at pleasure, for it only increased the efficiency of the organs and instruments of the people. He feared not, therefore, to give this body all powers necessary for the ends for which it is instituted,—requiring from them duties conducive to these ends, and subjecting them to the strictest inspection and control of Parliament. The end of these institutions was, to improve, extend, and permanently secure education.—One of these objects, without the other two, would not be sufficient. Extend instruction as he had already said, without improving it, and you extend an evil; if good, and not extended, its benefits were trifling; if extended, and liable to change or interruption, it cheated the public with a mere illusion. To effect these purposes the Board should be empowered to purchase land, to build school-houses, houses for teachers, and all buildings necessary thereto; to annex land for play-ground, gardens for teachers, and agricultural instruction for scholars, to outfit with all articles necessary for teaching, books, collections, &c. &c. All these expenses should fall exclusively on the Board. By the present system, no school can be founded, or aid granted by the Board, unless on the specific condition of the parish furnishing, for the first outlay, one-third, at least, of the expense. He was aware, that in Prussia, the system was carried further, and the parish furnished the entire; a duty, performed on the contrary, by the Church in Weimar; but this precedent ought not to weigh against the positive inconvenience. Many parishes were too poor to furnish a large present outlay in money; and what happened? They either remained without a school, or the money was advanced by some rich individual, who repaid himself in patronage (and patronage of the most injurious kind too), for what he had momentarily lent to the parish. He wished to rescue the people from wearing the livery of any man; and to convince them, that whatever they had, it was thoroughly and for ever their own.
1220
The objections against such arrangement, on the ground of the expense entailed on the State, were futile. The expense ceased with the purchase of the land, and building, and outfit of the school, and must, therefore, diminish every year; and, finally, very nearly terminate altogether. A large proportion of schools were already established; purchases of schools might be made in some districts at a slight expense; the Board providing the land obviated all chances of litigation, so incidental to the actual trustee system; it prevented the selection of bad sites, so common at present; building the school ensured a cheap and a good model, and fitting it out, that the parish would always begin with a proper type of what a school ought to be, before them. It must also be remembered, that the Board would be exempted from payment of teachers—another great reduction, not only of expenses, but of business; it was necessary to keep open an account, on the present system, very frequently, with the teachers of schools under the jurisdiction of the Board. These provisions would enable the Board to extend education as generally as it might be desired, and would give ample assurance for its continuance when so extended. A more important consideration was the giving a high and useful character to education. This object embraced two considerations—the providing a good code of education, a judicious regulation for the management and instruction of the schools, and proper instruments by which those regulations might be put in practice. He proposed that the Board should draw up such regulations, within a specific period, to be submitted to Parliament and published generally throughout the country. He would give them power, also, under certain restrictions, of modifying and altering the regulations as might be found requisite. It would be out of the range of an Act of Parliament to embrace one-twentieth part of such regulations, nor did such appear to him to be its legitimate province. The French code of 1834 had gone too far, perhaps, in that particular; but the French code, full and detailed as it is, had already acquired a great number of supplementary ordonnances and circulars from the Government. He conceived that in constituting this, like every other department, it would be sufficient to give ample powers, and leave their exercise subject to the control of

1221
Parliament. Hence, both in this Bill, as well as in the former, he omitted all regulations in respect to religion. He was in consequence accused, by no very judicious or impartial inquirers into the matter, with a total indifference to the subject. Had they taken pains to read the preamble even of the Bill, they would have found that, in that very part which was supposed most sacredly and strongly to embody its principle, he had solemnly consecrated the principle, that all education should repose on religion—an institution without that might lead to knowledge, but it could not lead to virtue. The tree of good or evil should not be separated from the tree of life. He was sensible, also, that in a country like ours, circumstances and localities must guide in a matter so very delicate. Prussia had, with punctilious attention, considered the religious feelings of even the smallest sect amongst her subjects; so also had France. There were Protestant schools and Catholic schools, and mixed schools; schools, in fine, for every class of feeling, as well as of individuals. The instruments for communicating education, were teachers and books. These were the especial province, the highest province, of an enlightened body like the Board. To think of diffusing instruction without instructors, was beginning, like the philosophers of Laputa, from the roof. You might build schools, but you would not give education. The usual mode of selecting at present is by examination. But Scotland was a proof how little that could be relied on. Cramming, a glib tongue, and bold nerves might introduce, as they had done, blockheads into the seat of modest and timid Learning. As to certificates, they were as proverbial for falsehood as any other species of puffing. A previous course, well digested, well pursued, would guard against that. A dunce could not play the clever man for four years, though he might for four hours, without discovery. Teachers' schools, education schools, not training schools, (for that sounds technical and mechanical; the manual exercise of instruction) should be established, directed, and maintained by the Board. It was apprehended that this might produce too great a uniformity, and degenerate into a monopoly. That would be a serious evil. He had as earnest a desire as any man to preserve entire the perfect freedom of education. Its action should in no wise
1222
be hampered either by bounty or prohibition. A leviathan, all-absorbing education company would only be a manufacturer of slaves and fools. He would guard, therefore, against a pernicies barathrumque as much as he could. Cases might arise where teachers' schools might be conducted by individuals, or courses, for the same purpose annexed to Universities. Either would undoubtedly promote the great general purposes of education—each should be encouraged. One of these cases had come within his own personal knowledge. A gentleman, distinguished not merely for his high literary and scientific attainments, but still more for his long experience and true views on education, (Dr. Bryce, of Belfast) had long desired to establish in the institution on which he conferred such honour, by being its head, a regular course, based on what alone it should repose, the science of mind. He (Mr. Wyse) applied to the Government for a grant of 2,000 l. for the purpose, repayable by tickets, to such teachers as Government might think proper to select for the course. The course was most ample, in point of time and studies, and would soon have raised up a body of teachers in the country superior to those who owe so much to Professor Pillans and Mr. Wood, in Scotland. His colleagues offered, in the noblest manner, their assistance. There was no doubt of success if the experiment had been tried. Government, after solicitations, I must say, the most zealous, seconded by names the very highest of which the cause of education could boast, refused and continued, to refuse, on the ground that the Board had not and have not the powers for the purpose. He proposed to give them such powers of aid whenever such a case as the one instanced should present itself. He would go further—and admit to the examinations for place of teacher such as had been educated at any such school, or had attended such courses; and would enjoin the publication of their names in a list of approved candidates once a year, that the country at large might be acquainted with their merits, and know whom and how to select. But students for such profession could not be expected unless the profession itself were first raised, he would place it on a par with the other learned professions; and would make it a fourth learned profession, if possible. But that could not be done, unless it were

1223
made respectable. He would give the Board power to promote; to reward with honorary and other distinctions; to ensure retiring pensions; and, in certain cases, to extend them to the families of the teachers. The salaries conferred by the parish guaranteed their independence; the school-fees paid by the children would stimulate their exertions. He would leave the appointment of teachers, where it ought to be, in the hands of the Board. The people might be judges of moral character, they were no judges of competency. All opinions of that kind must be taken second-hand, and then was opened a field to intrigue, despotism, and servility. Books also should be provided for the people, though not forced on them. Prizes should be given by the Board for the production of good books. They were not below the highest intellect in the country. A more noble spectacle could not be conceived than to see the great lights of the age bending down to shew the way to these "little ones," and difficult was the task. It might well put to proof the prowess of the boldest. In that particular England was in arrear, though recent efforts shewed that it was becoming sensible of it. Look to Germany—look to France; their school-libraries abounded with a profusion of excellent works: look even to America; why were they unknown to us—why were they not ours also—why had we not as good, or better? The Board should establish in each school—its school, and teachers, and parochial library. It could be done, he spoke from experience, for the sum of 15 l. to 20 l. He would not only extend, thus, the education of the child beyond the threshold of the school, but he would make it an instrument for the education of the parent, and a stimulant to watch over the education of the child. The library should be open to all families whose children were in daily attendance at the school. To enforce the whole of these regulations, the Board should appoint inspectors—a Catholic and a Protestant in each province—and should see that they reported twice a-year; in like manner the Board should report to Parliament. Such were the powers and duties he proposed for the Board. He would next turn to the people. The province of the people would be, to contribute and maintain. When the Board might wish to found a school in any particular parish, he proposed that it should transmit to the
1224
parish, through the clergyman, magistrates, &c., a proposal to build and outfit such school, &c. &c., provided the parish, on its part, should consent to assess itself for the payment of the teacher, the repairs of the buildings, and the daily and incidental charges of the school. The parish on meeting (the Bill would specify minutely the qualifications of the voters, mode of meeting, &c.,) to assent to, or dissent from, the proposal of the Board. If assented to, it was to be levied on such parish by the grand jury collector on the opening of the school; notice was to be transmitted to the Board, and the Board would complete the work. On its completion the parish should elect a school committee, of which the Protestant, Catholic, and Presbyterian clergymen, the senior magistrate and physician, of the parish, were to be permanent members—the rest to be elected from the rate-payers, and removable once a-year. Should the parish wish to establish a school, it would have to address a memorial, either through the clergyman or the magistrate, to the Board, which thereupon, would be required to send down a proposal, on which the parish would proceed as just stated. These powers given to the parishes were intended to produce a general and permanent interest in the school. He did not mean, however, to exclude the power of granting aid, under certain restrictions, in the establishment of schools He would provide for such cases in every possible way. He meant to require, however, that whenever aid be granted, due security should be given for the payment of the teacher and maintenance of the school. Schools also already established, might under certain conditions, put themselves under the superintendence of the Board. Such was a wide outline of the plan he proposed for elementary education. But education must not stop there. The middle classes were if possible, more, in need of instruction, comparatively than the lower—in some cases they had, in consequence, scarcely the character of a Bible class at all. He would provide them, with their share of moral and intellectual food. The Board should be empowered, in the same manner as it was empowered to provide land, and build and fit out parochial schools for the parishes, to build and fit out academies for the counties provided the counties, like the parishes, consented to assess themselves,

1225
through their grand juries, for the payment of the teachers, and the annual support of the institutions. And pursuing still further this second grade of education, the same Board should have like power to found and fit out provincial colleges, provided, as was now done for our asylums, the counties composing these provinces would, as in the case of the academies, assess themselves for the support of the colleges. Thus, by degrees, thirty-two academies and four provincial colleges might be founded in Ireland. Nor let hon. Members be startled at the expense. There were commencements, at least, for the academies in the diocesan royal schools, and, for the provincial colleges, in the institutions of Cork and Belfast. Special education, which might be placed also in this grade was a matter more of interest to the particular profession, and the individuals who cultivated it, than to the Government and the people at large. He did not propose to adopt the same rule in regard to it that he had in the other; yet conditions of a similar nature might be made with the profession, which here would stand in lieu of the parish and the county—the Board making the outlay, the profession paying for the support. This, in the case of the Civil Engineer Department, would be especially desirable, if he might judge from the examinations lately held before the Board of Public Works. The education of engineers in a peculiar degree, concerned the public, and ought to be, in part at least, an object of public outlay, through the Board. The third grade, superior or University education, required more care. As the Universities were constituted, they could not, without exciting great hostility and resistance, be placed under the jurisdiction of any public Board; but as it was important they should be in relation with it, he saw no reason why, of their own accord, they might not constitute a council to communicate with the Board of education or give power for that purpose to the University Board which now exists. Another more material point was, the nationalising the University, and putting it in harmony with other portions of the national system, which could only be done by enlarging the present University, or founding a new one. The fellowships, for the most part, being Ecclesiastical, could not be thrown open to all persuasions, but an additional number of lay fellowships might
1226
be founded, to which as to the Professorships, Catholic and other Dissenters, as well as Protestants, might be eligible, and the scholarships to which no such objections exist, should be open to all communions alike. If this should not be practicable, why not found a second University? When the present one was first established, the nation did not exceed 1,000,000; it was now 8,000,000. Germany, with 30,000,000 inhabitants, had twenty Universities, the Netherlands have six, Scotland five, Ireland one. Cromwell thought of erecting a second one at Athlone. Was it less necessary now? The last grade of education to which he should advert, was supplementary and subsidiary. By the first, he meant that description of education which supplied the want of early culture, such as adult schools, mechanics' institutes, &c.; by the second, he understood all that contributed to continue or improve education already acquired, such as literary and scientific institutions, learned and other societies, museums, galleries, &c. He would deal with these precisely in the same way as with elementary and parochial education, The Board should make the entire outlay, provided the town or city assessed itself in a certain stipulated sum for their support. This expense to the State would, like that of parochial and other schools, be limited, and constantly diminishing, but it would effectually extend such establishments to every town in the land. He had followed one principle throughout, modifying it only as circumstances required. It was not to be supposed that he hoped to achieve even a small portion of this plan for some time, but he thought it incumbent on him to place the whole at once frankly before the House, that the Legislature might work one part in harmony with the other, and not do to-day what Penelope-like, it might be compelled to undo to-morrow. He should wish to divide his measure, if possible, into four Bills—a Bill for the Establishment of a Board of National Education, and three successive Bills—one for elementary—one for academical and collegiate—and finally, one for subsidiary education. Changes in the University were subjects more for an Address to the Crown. Circumstances, however, compelled him to combine the first Bill with the second. It was to introduce this, he asked leave of the House. Any measure for academical education would

1227
require some previous inquiry, and he had a notice to that effect (the one on diocesan schools), on the Older-book of the House. He had done, thanking the House for the indulgence with which it had listened to what, from the nature of the subject, he felt must have been comparatively tedious. He could scarcely do less, and wished he could do more. The more he had thought on it, the more deeply was he penetrated with the importance of the Question. Every day added to the conviction, that we had reached the point when a thorough and extensive Education Reform could no longer be deferred. If our political Reform was searching, so also should be this; our schools were not a jot less important than our Parliaments. If they had disfranchised and enfranchised in one, without any weak visitings of compunction for this man's prejudice or the other man's plunder, but with a steady eye to "right" only and the "public good," struck boldly onward for prosperity and the country, so also for a similar object should we advance with the same unflinching regard to her commonweal. Other countries were teaching us the lesson—we touched the mind and civilization of other nations on every side. Education Reform would come and conquer like every other. What was the folly of to-day, would be the wisdom of to-morrow. Men who now opposed, would wish to share, as in other Reforms, when the battle was over, and the victory was won; and when he turned to Ireland, had he reason to despair? Was there not some hope that the miserable phantasmagoria of Government with which she had, up to this hour, been deluded—would, at last, end? Up to this hour, with few exceptions, Secretary on Secretary had passed over Ireland, merely gleaning what his predecessor had left undevoured. What interest could men feel about a country which they only governed, he might say, by parenthesis, and merely to show with what small expenditure of trouble or knowledge Administrations might be kept in motion—and what an easy feat it was to ruin a country, and enrich an individual at the same time. A contemptible bureaucracy, an Aide-decamp coterie had been our Government. No new Governor could come in, but he was obliged to pay more attention to the balancing of parties, than to the government of the country—playing the chess-game of this man's fears against that man's
1228
hopes—managing his seat whilst he should be riding on. The result was natural—no man ever governed through such instruments, but was ultimately obliged to govern for them. Master in name, slave in reality—he had large powers for mischief, none for doing good. If he thought that such were to continue to be our government, he should despair, not of this Bill only, but of any measure which did not serve the pettifogging purpose of the day. An enlightened Minister must govern, as well as rule. Such an Administration must be incapable of either. He was resolved to do his duty; he had a strong faith in a righteous and great cause, and he could not believe that what ought to succeed, would be unsuccessful. In one word, it came to this—men will be educated, whether the Government liked or not. The only point was, how—or for what? That the House could determine; and the sooner, and the more thoroughly it determined, the better for every man, from the highest to the lowest in the country. He asked for leave to bring in, a Bill for the Establishment of a Board of National Education, and the advancement of Elementary Education in Ireland.
Mr. William S. O'Brienseconded the Motion, and said the country would feel indebted to the hon. Member for Water-ford for being the first to lay before the House a national system of education. Every system of education now prevailing in this country was either formed by chance or owed its origin to the liberality of private individuals. No system was provided by the Government. In this respect England was far behind other countries, and we were obliged to go to foreign nations in order to get information, and to consult their experience on the subject. They had, it was true, a Board of Education in Ireland, but as yet its operation was partial and imperfect. He thought, however, that his hon. Friend ought to be encouraged in his efforts on this subject, and no one he believed would controvert him when he asserted that it was the bounden duty of England to provide a proper system of education for the people of Ireland. He was satisfied that the adoption of his hon. Friend's proposition would lead to the best possible results. His scheme was a noble and comprehensive one, and feeling convinced that it was calculated to raise the moral and social condition of the people, it should have his best support.
Lord Morpethsaid, that he could not pretend to follow the hon. Member for Waterford through either the official documents or details into which he had entered; neither would he express any opinion as to the efficacy of the Board which it was the intention of his measure to establish. It was not, however, his desire to throw any impediments in the way of the introduction of this Bill, although he regarded the hon. Gentleman's undertaking as rather an ambitious one; but in sanctioning the Motion to bring in the Bill, he did so in the hope that some useful suggestions might be found to be contained in it.
Mr. Shawsaid, that although he did not approve of the present system of Irish national education, and perhaps might not give his assent to the scheme of the hon. Member for Waterford, he still would offer no opposition to the present Motion. His opinion of the present system of the Board of Education in Ireland was, that it had neutralized rather than promoted the object which it was designed to accomplish. In all such cases, however, the great difficulty was to hit upon any plan of national education which would be satisfactory alike to all parties.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthough t it unadvisable to enter upon the discussion of the measure until it was fairly before the House, for how was it possible for them to judge either of its principles or details? It was not, of course, his intention to offer any resistance to the hon. Member for Water-ford's Motion; but with respect to what had fallen from his right hon. Friend (he hoped he would allow him to call him so) opposite, he must say that it was not a little singular that he should now disapprove of that which had received the approbation of his friends. The late Government proposed to do justice to the views of those by whom the present Board of Education in Ireland had been established; for not only had they expressed their intention of adopting the plan, but of extending it.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that whatever colour the Irish Conservatives (of all Conservatives the most unqualified) might endeavour to give to the adoption by Sir Robert Peel's Government of the Education Commission, the facts were too stubborn, and too little capable of denial, to admit of the exercise of any evasive ingenuity on the part of those who now endeavoured
1230
to explain what they did not attempt during the late administration to advert to. The Irish Tories remained dumb when Sir Henry Hardinge announced that in the system of education introduced by the Whig Government, their Conservative successors would persevere—they sat in accommodating silence; office had struck them dumb, they exhibited a complaisant taciturnity, which, compared with their boisterous lamentations on the mutilation of the word of God, to which they had previously given loose, afforded proof of the facility with which their flexible consciences adapted themselves to the convenience of their political patrons. Justice, however, ought to be done the Irish Orangemen out of the House. The Evening Mail (while the Irish protegés of the Peel Government remained significantly silent) inveighed against the betrayal of the Protestant cause. Sir Henry Hardinge was denounced, and for the acquiescence of the Parliamentary champions of the Scriptures an ample compensation was made by the indignation of those over whom the Treasury had not exercised its tranquillizing sway. But he desired to avoid all criminatory retrospects. It was now clear that the Education Commission was to remain undisturbed.—Ireland, after a long struggle, had achieved the overthrow of the proselytising system—the people had overcome every obstacle; and as they had triumphed in that instance, so in every other, in which they were sustained by justice, they were sure to succeed. But although much had been done, much remained to be performed. The mere Education of the lower classes, and their instruction in reading and arithmetic, were not the only objects which a wise Government ought to propose to themselves. They should take a larger view of the mind of Ireland, and adopt means to bring her intellectual resources out. At this moment there was no National University in Ireland, because, from the fellowships and professorships of Trinity College, Roman Catholics, the majority of the Irish people, were excluded. No matter how eminent might be the faculties, or how vast the attainments of a Roman Catholic student in Trinity College, his religion was an insurmountable obstacle to his advancement. He had pon several occasions referred to this gross injustice, and he was told that Trin-

1231
ity College was an appurtenance to the Church, and that the impediment thrown in the way of Roman Catholics was necessary, however it was to be regretted. If this opinion should be adopted by the House, the consequence which he should deduce from it was, that another University ought to be founded in Ireland. In this view he was supported by the spirit of the Act of 1793. By that Act Roman Catholics were excluded from the fellowships of Trinity College; but it was provided, that they should be admissible to the fellowships and professorships of any college to be hereafter founded. Let Trinity College be thrown open; or, if you persist in closing it—if you make a sectarian in place of converting it into a national establishment—if it is to be Protestant, and not Irish, then establish another college, where fair play shall be given to the intellect of the country, and where genius and industry shall have a clear stage, and in the wrestlings of mental competition there shall be no sectarian favour. It might be said, the Catholics have a college at Maynooth. How much did they award to Maynooth. Having undertaken the education of the Catholic clergy, what did they allot to that education? They ought either to pay nothing, or to pay well. What, then, was the utmost extent of Parliamentary munificence to Maynooth. What was the amount alloted in the estimates to the Education of the most powerful and influential corporate body, the Catholic priests, in the empire? The miserable pittance of 8,000 l. a-year. It was well known that when Mr. Canning was at Maynooth he expressed disgust, not at what he saw, but at the despicable penury, the bigoted avarice, which granted so contemptible a sum for the most important of all the objects, connected with education, which a statesman can contemplate. People often talked of paying the Catholic clergy upon the largest, most munificent, most enlightened scale. Extend the period of Education at Maynooth—give to the professors large salaries, by which genius and talents will be allured, and make that college, or some analogous national establishment, the source from which improvement may be diffused through the country. At present, it is wonderful how much the Catholic clergy, with their narrow and contracted means of acquiring knowledge, have done.—Many of
1232
them would be ornaments of literature in any country; but it was not to the opportunities afforded by Government that their proficiency was to be attributed. Their own genius and exertions had overcome every obstacle. He would not only remove obstacles, but he would open a wide field for the exercise of great abilities. In the Irish clergy the best materials were to be found. All that they required was, the abatement of those obstructions which now stood in the way of their intellectual progress. He was convinced that the establishment of a great national seminary, or even the enlargement and more liberal endowment of Maynooth, would lead to the happiest results, and would be the means of developing the intellect of Ireland. He often heard Englishmen speak of locating a sacerdotal stipendiary, a paid priest, in every Catholic parish; place, he would say, in every Catholic parish a Roman Catholic clergyman, supplied, not, indeed, with a wretched stipend which might make him a servile politician, but with a perfect education, which was sure to make him a useful citizen; you will thus make him contributory to the improvement of the active population within the reach of his influence, and, great as the services are which are now rendered by the Roman Catholic priesthood (the best the purest, the most zealous clerical body in the Christian world), you will enhance their value, and give to the good in which they are now instrumental a most noble consummation.
Lord Sandondid not think, in the absence of all information which could warrant such a conclusion, that any one had a right to say that the late experiment on the subject of Irish education had been successful.
Mr. Feargus O'Connorcould assure the noble Lord that, as far as it had been tried, the experiment had been most successful, though the Protestant gentry of Ireland had done all in their power to defeat the success of the plan.
Sir Robert Batesondenied, in the most positive terms, either that the experiment had succeeded, or that the Protestant gentry were unfriendly to the cause of education. The present national system of education in Ireland was much opposed to the feelings and the opinions of the Presbyterians of the north that upon no account would they suffer their children

1233
to enter any of the schools. It never, therefore, could receive the sanction of the Presbyterians, for they, one and all, regarded it as a system established only for the exclusive education of the Roman Catholics.
Leave given to bring in the Bill.

THE SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. Fowell Buxton, with the permission of the House, would postpone the Motion of which he had given notice respecting the treatment of the Aborigines in the British settlements, and proceed with that on the subject of the Slave Trade. The resolution which he formerly proposed, was objected to on account of its length; but he thought that his present Motion would obtain the assent of every hon. Gentleman present, inasmuch as it was not only short, but contained all that could be desired. He had on the former occasion gone at some length into the facts of the case, and as the matter must be fresh in the recollection of every hon. Gentleman present, he had little more to do now than call the attention of the House to the enormous extent to which this trade was carried on at the present moment. In fact the Slave Trade was as active now as ever it had been, though treaties for putting an end to this inhuman traffic had been formed with foreign nations. Spain and Portugal, in particular, had weighty pecuniary considerations for adhering to the solemn engagements which they had entered into with us; but, instead of keeping faith, as they were bound to have done, those Powers, he was sorry to say, had grossly violated their treaties by allowing the Slave Trade to be carried on under their respective flags. No one could conceive the horrors of this dreadful traffic, and, if it were necessary, he could go into details of the most striking and painful nature. It was not, however, expedient that he should do so, and, therefore, all he should now say was, that the address which he was about to propose was couched in temperate language, perhaps more temperate than he should have used if negotiations were not going on which he had no wish, by any harshness of expression, to impede or interrupt. He must say, however, that if this trade were not speedily put an end to by peaceful means he hoped the Government would feel it their duty to repress it by force. The hon. Gentleman moved—
1234
"That an humble address be presented to his Majesty, to inform his Majesty that this House has learned with deep regret, from the documents which have been laid before it, that the traffic in slaves still continues to be carried on, under the protection of the flags of foreign nations, particularly under those of Spain and Portugal, to an extent almost as great as at any former period of its existence, and attended with circumstances of additional cruelty and horror.
"That this House particularly calls the attention of his Majesty to the conduct hitherto pursued by the governments of Spain and Portugal, who are bound not only by the most solemn treaties, but by the payment of large sums of money, and the remission of debts due to this country, totally to abolish this nefarious traffic.
"That this House, with a view to put an end to this iniquitous and detestable trade, humbly beseeches his Majesty to enter into negotiations with his allies, for the purpose of revising all the treaties having for their object the suppression of this traffic, in order to reduce the terms and stipulations contained therein into one solemn league between all the high contracting parties, and to introduce it into such general treaty.
"First, An extension of the limit to the right of search to the whole of the western and eastern coasts of Africa and the Island of Madagascar, and to such distance from these coasts as shall ensure the capture of all slaves; and an agreement, that this right of search shall be reciprocal between all the high contracting parties.
"Secondly, That the right of seizure shall be extended to vessels equipped for the purposes of trading in slaves, although not actually having slaves on board.
"Thirdly, An agreement that all such vessels as may be condemned by the mixed Commission Courts shall forthwith be broken up, or otherwise effectually destroyed; and,
"Fourthly, A stipulation that the trade in slaves shall be declared piracy."
Mr. Humeseconded the Motion, and said that he concurred in every part of the resolution except that which stipulated for the destruction of the ships engaged in the Slave Trade, which might be captured. As these vessels could be used for other purposes, he did not see the advantage of destroying them; but with respect to all the other parts of the resolution he wished to see them carried into full effect.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the resolution had the entire sanction of his Majesty's present Government, but as some misapprehension seemed to prevail on the subject he wished to assure the House that no effort or pains had been

1235
spared, either by the present Government or any former administration, to put an end to this trade, and thereby carry into full effect the intentions of Parliament. The second paragraph of the resolution alluded to the "conduct hitherto pursued by the Governments of Spain and Portugal, who are bound, not only by the most solemn treaties, but by the payment of large sums of money and the remission of debts due to this country, totally to abolish this nefarious traffic;" and he wished to guard himself from the inferences to be drawn from such a statement, that the present governments of Spain and Portugal had not manifested a disposition to act on different principles from those adopted by their predecessors in reference to this subject. The fact was, that they had, and that treaties were now in the act of negotiation with both powers which, he hoped, would terminate to the satisfaction of all parties. He disapproved of the proposition for breaking up the vessels, but he had no objection whatever that it should become the law of nations that all persons taken in the act of carrying on this trade should be deemed guilty of piracy.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that it was all very well for hon. Gentlemen filling official situations to speak with mildness of the conduct of Spain and Portugal, but for his part, unconnected as he was with office, he thought no language that could be used, in reference to the course pursued by those powers with respect to this trade, too strong. They had been guilty, to say the least of it, of a gross violation of national faith in lending their flags for such a purpose; and he, therefore, thought it was the duty of that Mouse not only to speak distinctly, but to call upon the Government of this country to insist upon having the stipulations of these treaties fulfilled. He hoped that the treaties now pending would be carried into effect; but, at all events, he trusted that the example which this country set would have the effect of ultimately putting an end to this horrible traffic.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, that it was not enough to tell them that Spain and Portugal had evinced a disposition to put an end to this trade. Both those powers, but more particularly Portugal, were bound to do so; and he, therefore, hoped the governments of those countries would be speedily induced to look into a subject
1236
which it was a disgrace to any civilized nation to tolerate.
Mr. Fowell Buxtonwished to explain to his hon. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, and the House, why it was he wished to have all slave vessels captured destroyed. The fact was, that, being fitted up in a peculiar manner, they were unfit for any other employment, and, therefore, if they were not broken up, the chances were, that they would be again applied to their original purpose.
Mr. Prymesaid, that he could not see any advantage that would be gained by breaking up those vessels, since they must become useless if the trade was abolished.
The Motion was agreed to.

SPIRIT LICENSES.
Mr. Divett, after presenting Petitions from the Licensed Victuallers of Exeter, Stockport, South Shields, and various other Places, praying for the Repeal of the Additional Duty on Spirit Licenses, observed, that he intended to move, that the Act by which that additional duty was imposed, and which he was sure the House would never have passed if they could have anticipated the extensive injury and oppression it had led to, should be taken into consideration in a Committee of the whole House. It would be in the recollection of the House, that under the 6th George 4th, cap. 81, a scale of duty was imposed on spirit-houses, commencing with houses rated under 10 l., and ending with houses rated at 50 l., all houses rated above that sum paying no increased duty. During the last Session, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that an additional duty might be imposed on retail spirit-dealers with advantage to the revenue; and he succeeded in persuading the House, that he should be able to raise the amount of duty to the extent of 167,000 l. He believed that the noble Lord was mistaken in his calculations. He believed that the increased tax would be found to have the effect of diminishing the revenue, and of encouraging in a very great degree, the practice of smuggling. He was aware that it had been the feeling on the part of former Governments, that the licensed victuallers were a class of people from whom any amount of taxation might be exacted; but in his opinion, they were entitled to as much protection as other traders. Certain it was, however, that no class had been subject to similar taxation. He was aware

1237
that he should be met by his right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) with a statement, that the amount of taxation which would be taken off by the success of his Motion, would be more than the Exchequer could bear. It so happened that a very large number of occupants of houses rented under 10 l. a-year, a number not less than 38,500 in round numbers, paid for a spirit license at the rate of two guineas each, and he was sure that the continuance of the duty would throw the trade into the hands, either of the great spirit-shops, or a class of persons who would act in defiance of the law. He would read an extract from a letter which he had received a short time since from a constituent of his own who was formerly in the Excise, perfectly conversant with the circumstances connected with the trade, and on whose statement he could place the most perfect reliance, a gentleman who had given very valuable evidence before the Committee of which his hon. Friend, the Member for Dundee, was the Chairman. The hon. Member then read the extract referred to, the substance of which was, that a public-house, called the Butchers' Arms, rented at 20 l. a-year, formerly paid six guineas for a spirit-license, but under the present system it was raised, on a change of occupation, to fifteen guineas, while the large houses could never be taxed at a ratio exceeding fifty per cent. He acquitted his noble Friend, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, of any intention to oppress the trade by this alteration in the system, but he contended it had that effect. The duty fell heaviest on that class of houses where a license was taken out, not for the sake of selling a great amount of spirits, but for the purpose of occasionally accommodating a customer, by letting him have a glass of gin or rum-and-water. As to the loss to be sustained by the Exchequer, he fully believed that if they recurred to the old state of the law on this head, looking at it as a mere question of revenue, the loss would be little or nothing. The hon. Member concluded by moving, "That the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the operation of 4th and 5th William 4th, cap. 75, which increased the amount of the duty on spirit-licenses fifty per cent, and of the Statute 6th George 4th, cap. 31."
Lord Sandonseconded the Motion. He
1238
principally objected to the present system, on account of the gross inequality with which the tax operated. He was not opposed abstractedly to a tax upon spirits. As a luxury they might fairly be taxed, provided the tax did not press unequally, and the mode of collecting it were fair and impartial. He expressed a hope, that the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would be induced to remove this grievance. As the hon. Member for Exeter had gone sufficiently into the details of the Question, it would be less necessary for him to enter upon it at length, and he should therefore content himself with seconding the Motion of the hon. Member.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that it would be in the recollection of the House, that the right hon. Baronet who preceded him in the office he had the honour to hold, had estimated the probable surplus of the year to be 250,000 l., and the next point to which he wished to direct their attention was, that if the proposition of his hon. Friend was adopted, no less than 150,000 l., arising from the increased duty on spirit-licenses, would be lost to the revenue. Now, to that proposition, he for one was not prepared to accede. At a fit and proper time, he should be ready to examine the question of the propriety of equalizing the duty on spirit-licenses, but the present was not a suitable opportunity. The subject was, in fact, at the present moment, under the consideration of the Excise, and if he was sufficiently informed on the subject, he should not hesitate to enter upon it at once; but in the meantime he hoped the Mouse would agree with him in thinking, that there was nothing so ill-advised as to make an incomplete statement. He should endeavour to give his best attention to it, for a more difficult question, small as it was, could hardly be found. He begged therefore his hon. Friend would not press his Motion, but while he did so, and while he was prepared to state, that a scheme for equalizing the duty on spirit-licenses was under the consideration of the Government, he should be very sorry that it should go abroad, that it was the intention of Ministers, that anything more than the inequality should be removed. The Exchequer could not afford to part with 150,000 l. collected from this source. By the way, he must remark, that in one respect his hon. Friend was in error, when

1239
he said that the calculation of the noble Lord (Althorp) when he laid on this tax had not been verified by the result. In no one instance did he remember, in any case a closer approach to realizing a calculation. He had stated the amount of the increased duty to be 150,000 l., but the real amount for the first year was 163,000 l., and the noble Lord in submitting the tax to the House had estimated the probable revenue from it at 167,000 l. The tax therefore had yielded only 4,000 l. less then his noble Friend's calculations. The great difficulty was to provide a substitute for that tax, and the great obstacle in the way of those who wished to commute taxation was, that they were pledged to the repeal of the tax, which they had once announced their intention to take off; but if, unfortunately, any new tax pressed heavily on any class, the next year they were asked to repeal that also. As to the Butchers' Arms, on a change of occupant the increased duty fell, not on the tenant, but the landlord. He had no more to say, but he trusted that the House would give him an opportunity of bringing forward the question under more advantageous circumstances than the present moment afforded.
Mr. Humesaid, that as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to wish to equalize the duty, he thought it would not be fair to press the Motion on the present occasion. He really thought, however, that the Bill for the increase of the duty was brought in under false pretences: the tax was not so much put on to increase the revenue, as to serve, as was supposed, the cause of morality by making spirits not so easily accessible.
Mr. Prymesuggested the propriety of introducing a sort of scale by which a license duty might be imposed in proportion to the quantity of spirits sold or consumed by the publican. He would have the house which had sold a certain quantity during the year, to pay a certain duty. He trusted that, whatever was the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would take away the inequality that existed. He was not contented with a diminution of the duty on spirits, because he conceived that if it could be done away with consistently with the prevention of smuggling, it would be difficult to say what duty should be laid on in its stead.
Mr. Charles Barclaywas extremely glad that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
1240
had taken up the subject, and he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would afford relief to a most deserving class of persons. There was no class of persons taxed so heavily, in proportion to the trade they carried on, as those whose cause he was advocating; nineteen out of twenty public houses were let on long leases, and therefore all taxes affecting these houses fell on the occupiers.
Sir George Stricklandwas gratified at hearing the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would come to the determination of getting rid of the present mode of levying this tax, as great excitement prevailed on the subject. The only satisfactory way of setting the question at rest was by charging for the licence in proportion to the quantity of spirits consumed.
Mr. Robinsoncontended that it was not only the duty of the House to see that not more than was absolutely necessary was taken from the pockets of the people, but also that the taxes fell equally and fairly on all classes. The present duty was unequal and unfair, and therefore ought to be got rid of. The Chancellor of the Exchequer met that by saying, that he could not afford to give up any portion of the revenue. He was a perfect adept in the art of all his former predecessors in deprecating any interference on the part of this House with the peculiar duties of his office; but the right hon. Gentleman must excuse him, for observing, that if there was any one duty which they owed to their electors more than another, it was to take care that not only the taxes were not greater in amount than absolutely necessary; but that in their operation they were as equally distributed as possible. The whole of the fiscal system was founded upon a most vicious principle, viz.: not as to who are best able to pay the taxes, but in what way the Government can get the money with the greatest possible facility. But as the right hon. Gentleman had almost pledged himself, he hoped that the Member for Exeter would consent to withdraw his Motion, on the understanding that the right hon. Gentleman in some part of the Session would introduce a measure upon the subject. On the part of his constituents, he, for one, would not offer any objection, but rest perfectly satisfied with that arrangement.
Mr. Carrutherswas prepared to have

1241
voted for the motion, but after the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he did not feel called upon to do so. As a matter of justice, the present system of charging for licences, which was an innovation, should be got rid of.
Mr. Mark Phillipssupported the principle of the Motion, and trusted that relief would be afforded. At the same time as the subject was to be taken into consideration by his Majesty's Government, he would not go into the question which he was prepared to do, and to prove that the tax was most partial and most unjust.
Colonel Sibthorpwas by no means satisfied with the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as it appeared to him to be nothing more than the shadow of a promise. The present mode of charging the licence-duty was deeply injurious to the poorer classes of licensed victuallers, as well as to the innkeepers. He could not help feeling that the mode in which matters were then discussed in the House was very objectionable. They had been sitting for three months, and yet they had not done one single act to afford the least satisfaction to the country. Certainly the proceeding of reinstating their friends in office was anything but satisfactory to the country, notwithstanding any opinion Gentlemen opposite might entertain on the subject.
Mr. Hodgeswished also to bear his testimony to the general feeling that prevailed as to the unfairness of the present system.
Mr. Kellyhad not understood the right hon. Gentleman to promise to repeal the present duty on Spirit Licences either wholly or in part; he therefore hoped the hon. Member for Exeter would persevere in his Motion. This tax in some respects differed from any other. The question was not, whether they would repeal a tax which had existed for a long series of years, and which could not be got rid of without danger to the whole system of taxation; but whether they would repeal a tax which had recently been put on, and which ought never to have been imposed. This tax was not only partial in its operation, but it pressed on a class of persons already overburdened with taxation.
Mr. Divettwould, with permission of the House, withdraw his Motion, trusting to the known desire of his right hon. Friend to afford every practicable relief.
Motion withdrawn.

LAW COURTS IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. Wallace Mr. Wallace moved for leave to bring in four Bills to improve the present practice in certain Law Courts in Scotland: the first, that of the Courts of Session, Teinds, and Justiciary; also to regulate and define the duties of the Judges, and of the clerks and their officers, and to abolish the fee-fund and other dues of those courts. Second: To regulate the forms, shorten the delays, and diminish the expense of the above Courts, and in appeals to the House of Lords. Third: To explain, regulate, and improve the practice and jurisdiction of the Sheriff and Burgh Courts. And the fourth was: To amend the Small Debt Act, and enforce the holding of Small Debt Circuit Courts by Sheriffs; also to extend the provisions of that Act to the amount of 10 l., and to abolish the arrestment of workmen's wages, and imprisonment for debt for sums under 10 l. He did not feel himself called upon to enter into explanations relative to those Bills, but should reserve what he had to say for another occasion. He need hardly observe, that the Sheriffs' Court in Scotland was one of the most efficient for the administration of justice that existed in any country, and regretted that England had not the advantage of such Courts. He trusted, however, that in a very short time such a Bill as had been introduced in the House of Lords two years ago by the then Lord Chancellor, for the establishment of Local Courts, would soon receive the sanction of the Legislature. The Sheriffs' Small Debt Circuit Courts had also been found to be most beneficial—indeed the number of causes tried in those Courts was a sufficient proof of their excellence. He denied that, in bringing forward these measures, he had the slightest desire to interfere with the duties of the Lord Advocate.
Sir William Raewas fully aware that any hon. Gentleman possessed the undoubted right to introduce any measures for the improvement of the constitution of the Courts of Justice in Scotland; at the same time he begged the House to recollect, before they sanctioned any measure of the kind, that within the last few years a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the subject, and the Commissioners had made a Report thereon. He had brought in a Bill embracing the important points, and it had been referred to a Committee up stairs. He thought the hon. Gentleman therefore

1243
had much better have laid his details before that Committee, when they might have been introduced into the Bill already before the House. Under the existing circumstances, to introduce new bills appeared to him a very inconvenient course.
The Lord Advocatethought the House would be disposed to allow his hon. Friend who had collected a vast deal of important information on this subject, to bring in his Bills. It did not appear to him that it would be any impediment for his hon. Friend to bring in Bills more extensive in their nature than the measure before contemplated, and the result might be, that great advantage would accrue. Believing that his hon. Friend did not mean his Bills to be an obstacle to any other proposition that might arise from the suggestions of the Select Committee, he should support the Motion.
Mr. Sinclairconsidered the Motion of the hon. Gentleman unnecessary and premature. It was unnecessary, because the subject was already in the hands of the officers of the Crown; and it was premature, because no final Report had been made by the Committee.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaw no objection to the introduction of these Bills. He did not agree with his hon. Friend as to all the great changes he would effect, but believed that many most valuable hints might be obtained from the information he had received; and it was better that it should be embodied in the shape of a Bill than that it should be laid before the Committee in a desultory manner. He saw no more convenient mode of putting the House in possession of the information than the one now proposed.
Leave given to bring the Bills in.

DIVISIONS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Wardrose to call the attention of the House to the Report of the Select Committee on Divisions. He said the House was no doubt aware of the nature of the recommendations of the Committee. In the first place, the Committee repeated the opinion of a previous Committee, viz., that it was not in its power at present to recommend any system which appeared free from all objection. The Committee, or he as Chairman of the Committee received almost innumerable suggestions on the subject: the number of the correspondents was indeed ample proof of the interest
1244
taken in it by men of all parties and degrees. The Committee having considered the various suggestions, unanimously agreed, that of all the plans, the safest, simplest, and most intelligible was the "lobby" system. They proposed that upon the space now occupied behind the Speaker's chair a lobby should be erected; and that this having been done, on the House being cleared for a division, the Ayes should pass into the lobby at one end, and the Noes into the lobby at the other, when the doors should be closed.—The Clerks were then to proceed to take down the names, which being completed, the doors were to be simultaneously opened, and the names would be carried to the Table of the House, and there alphabetically arranged. The Committee did not feel itself justified in recommending the plan without having first ascertained what would be the expense of carrying it into effect; they had therefore examined Sir Robert Smirke, from whom they ascertained that a lobby might be built capable of accommodating 500 Members, with two staircases to communicate with the galleries, at an expense of 1,500 l. A lobby without the staircases might be erected for only 1,200 l.; and the Library Committee having reported that such was the dearth of accommodation that it would be necessary for the convenience of Members to expend 600 l. in the erection of additional rooms, as the lobby proposed might be made available for general use, the additional expense which they must incur to enable them to carry the plan recommended of taking the divisions into effect would not exceed 600 l. Unless this lobby were built, the whole plan of taking the divisions must be deferred till the completion of the new Houses, which would probably occasion a postponement of the experiment for three years. The matter having been twice referred to a Select Committee, and twice reported upon, for them to defer the experiment for the time he had stated, would, he thought, greatly disappoint the expectations of the public. It was proposed that the divisions should not be on all occasions taken in the manner suggested, but that a discretion should be reserved to the House. The Committee recommended that the divisions should be taken according to their plan on all great occasions, but that the ordinary course should be pursued with respect to divisions on ques-

1245
tions of minor importance or interest.—The whole subject had been so frequently before the House, that he did not consider it necessary to go into any lengthened arguments on the present occasion. When it was considered how little would be the expense, and of what great importance was the object they had in view, he trusted that they would not consent to render the labours of this Committee quite nugatory.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he entirely concurred as to the general principle laid down by his hon. Friend. He was quite satisfied, whatever objections might be raised against this particular proposition, that with respect to the general principle, the constituency out of doors, and not the constituency only, but the whole body of the public, had a full and perfect right to be informed of all the proceedings of this House. It was true that the vote of a Member without explanation accompanying it might, in a good many instances, be misconstrued, but while he admitted this, he must say that it was not by rejecting a proposition for making their votes known that the explanations would be rendered less necessary. Generally speaking, the vote would sufficiently explain itself. He was quite sure, as regarded the operation of such a principle, that a Government or a House of Commons willing to do right had nothing to fear from a knowledge of its proceedings being possessed by the constituency. He therefore assented to his hon. Friend's general principle, and the only difficulty he felt was as to its practical application. If it had not been for the misfortune which had placed them in this temporary building, he, for one, should have been ready to acquiesce in the proposition of his hon. Friend; but he felt that there might be some inconvenience from entertaining any question of building now. They had already appointed a Building Committee to act in conjunction with a similar Committee of the other House. Of that Committee he had only within these few days become a member, therefore he was not prepared to say, nor indeed would it be right of him to anticipate the Report—how far the proposed scheme might or might not interfere with some views which the Committee entertained. Under these circumstances, he would suggest to his hon. Friend whether the better course would
1246
not be to refer this report to the Committee appointed to consider the propriety of rebuilding both Houses of Parliament. If this suggestion were adopted, he should propose to add to the Committee the name of his hon. Friend, that he might have the best opportunity of explaining and recommending his own plan. To the present motion there was a technical objection to which he must call attention. There could be no question but that it involved a money grant, and it was proposed without any previous estimate having been laid before the House.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that such an expression of opinion as they had just heard, coming as it did from a Chancellor of the Exchequer, and declaring in favour of an important principle, as well as announcing a wish for its application, would be considered of great value. But although the right hon. Gentleman had expressed his approval of the principle, he seemed to be satisfied to allow its execution to be deferred for a period of three years, as the new building could not in all probability be erected in a shorter space of time. The right hon. Gentleman should bear in mind, too, that an experiment similar to that proposed by the hon. Member for St. Alban's had been tried during the last Session; and although he (Mr. Warburton) was the proposer of that plan, he did not hesitate to say, that the trial of the method of taking divisions which he had suggested did not prove altogether unsuccessful, inasmuch as it had only been made twice, and upon the second occasion a half minute only on his calculation had been lost. He was perfectly willing, however, to adopt the opinion of the Committee which had sat upon this subject, that the best course to pursue would be to have a lobby made in the manner explained by the hon. Member for St. Alban's; a mode of taking divisions which ought in his opinion to be tried as speedily as possible in the present House, with a view of ascertaining whether it was one which it might be expedient to adopt in the House which it was proposed to erect. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to entertain some apprehension that the adoption of such a resolution as that proposed might interfere with the proceedings of the Building Committee. He could state that all his fears on that head were perfectly groundless; for the resolution of the Committee on divisions had been communicated to the Building Committee,

1247
and the result was, that the latter Committee expressed its acquiescence in the proposal for having two lobbies erected at different sides of the present House, with the intention, he supposed (for they did not say so), of adopting the same plan, if approved of, in the new Houses, the mode of erecting which they had been appointed to determine. With respect to the time which this alteration would require, Sir R. Smirke had stated, that he could erect such a room as that intended in the short space of a fortnight; and the expense of doing so would only amount to the sum of 600 l., which, as it was less than 1l. each for the whole of the Members of the House, could not, he was convinced, be objected to on any principle of rational or just economy. It had been said that the lobby would interfere with the new buildings. Now, as the present Houses of Parliament must remain until the new ones were finished, and as the intended lobby would be contiguous to the House of Commons, he did not see how the alteration could possibly place any obstacle in the way of proceeding with the new buildings. In conclusion, he should only repeat that the principle of this mode of taking divisions being approved of by the two committees, and not objected to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, he felt persuaded that it was expedient to have it carried into execution as quickly as possible.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that there was a course which might, he thought, be properly taken under the circumstances in which the House was placed, and which, he thought, would meet their wish, as well as the views of the hon. Member for Bridport. He took it for granted (though it might not be perfectly regular to do so) that the Committee on Divisions had affirmed the principle contended for by the hon. Member opposite, and that the Building Committee had coincided in the expediency of carrying that principle into practice. The only question, therefore, now appeared to be, at what period it was proper that the intended plan should be adopted. He recommended that they should suspend all further proceedings on this subject until the next meeting of the Building Committee; and that, in the meantime, a communication should be made to Sir R. Smirke, directing that he should have a plan ready to submit to the Committee,
1248
with a statement of the cost of erecting a lobby in contiguity to the present House. [Mr. Warburton: Sir R. Smirke has already given his evidence relative to this alteration.]—Yes; but not a formal estimate, and his object in proposing the course which he had suggested was, that the experiment should not be carried into effect sooner than was consistent with the due regularity of their proceedings; and he could not think that the delay of a week, which the compliance with his recommendation would cause, was one of unjustifiable duration.
Mr. Ward: After the unqualified approbation which my right hon. Friend has expressed of the principle of the proposed plan, I can have no hesitation in adopting his suggestion.
Mr. Humewas of opinion that it was perfectly competent for the Government to decide upon this matter without the interference of the Building Committee. He was persuaded that the right hon. Gentleman must see that the lobby would not at all interfere with the new buildings, and the proposed experiment thereon should, in his opinion, at once be made.
Mr. Aglionbyremarked, that the Building Committee had been appointed, not with reference to the temporary House, but for the purpose of superintending the erection of the permanent Houses of Parliament. He could not, therefore, see that any object could be accomplished by referring this Question, which affected the present House, to the consideration of the Building Committee.
Mr. Ridley Colbornewas of opinion that it was but justice to the Government to allow it a week to determine upon this alteration.
The Motion was withdrawn.

CIVIL BILL COURTS—(IRELAND).
Mr. Lynchrose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the Jurisdiction, and regulate the proceedings of the Civil Bill Courts in Ireland. He would not trespass at any length on the patience of the House, as he did not anticipate any opposition to the introduction of the Bill; and as the alterations which he meant to introduce consisted chiefly of details, such details would be better understood by hon. Members upon the Second Reading of the Bill, when it was printed, than by any explanation of his without a copy of the Bill in their hands. It was universally admit-

1249
ted that the Assistant-Barristers' Courts in Ireland were found to be highly advantageous, and most beneficial to the country. By them the poor man was not only made secure of cheap and expeditious law, but what was of still greater consequence, and that which was the end of all law, he was insured cheap and expeditious justice. Those Courts were altogether free from the objections urged against the proposed Local Courts' Bill in this country, for the Assistant Barristers were not resident in the districts over which they presided; they were not in the way of forming local predilections or partialities. By being resident in Dublin, and practising in the Courts, they had an opportunity of keeping up their knowledge of law, of becoming acquainted with the late decisions, and the alterations made from time to time in the law, and of conversing and communicating with their fellow Judges. These Courts worked so well, he thought the jurisdiction might be usefully and wisely extended. At present there was no jurisdiction in actions of covenant, except for payment of money. At present the jurisdiction extended to all actions of debt, on bond, bill, or specially to demands of 20 l. Irish currency, and in all actions of assumpsit, quantum meruit, trover, debt for rent upon leases, and contracts in writing to demands of 10 l., and in actions for trespass, and in the case, to damages to the amount of 5l. He would extend the jurisdiction in all cases to the amount of 20 l., and he would give a jurisdiction in covenant; of course, he would exclude actions of libel, slander, and crim. con. There was at present a jurisdiction in ejectment cases, against tenants over-holding or absconding, but no jurisdiction in cases of ejectments brought on an adverse title. He would give such a jurisdiction in cases where the annual value of the land did not exceed 20 l. At present there was no appeal from the decision of the Barrister in cases of ejectments where the decision was against the landlord. He was inclined to give that appeal in mercy to the tenant, as he had understood that the Assistant Barristers frequently decided against the landlord for want of such appeal, and thereby the tenant was put to great additional expense and inconvenience. This jurisdiction in cases of ejectment, was most beneficial for the landlord. He hoped it would be always wisely and leniently called into action by them.
1250
He was sorry to say, that the Legislature did not show the same anxiety in giving protection to the tenant, for though there was a jurisdiction given to the Assistant-Barristers in replevin cases, that jurisdiction was tedious and complicated, whereas in the cases of ejectment it was prompt, decisive, and simple. It was his intention to give as simple, and plain, and intelligible jurisdiction in cases of replevin and to extend the jurisdiction in such cases. In his opinion he thought a useful jurisdiction might be given by interfering by way of injunction in cases of waste, and this jurisdiction he would allow the Banisters to exercise when out of the county or district, an immediate opportunity being afforded of applying to dissolve the injunction to the Barrister, either within the district or in Dublin. He would give to the Assistant-Barristers jurisdiction in cases of legacies or shares of intestates' effects. To the poor legatee or next of kin there was, he might say, an entire denial of justice, for his only remedy at present was in instituting proceedings in a Court of Equity; and this jurisdiction ought, in his opinion, to be extended to legacies or shares of intestates' effects, to the amount of 50 l. It was not his intention to introduce any system of pleading, nor was it his intention to create any new office. He hoped this jurisdiction might be usefully extended by the Assistant-Barrister himself, and the Clerk of the Peace. He was not friendly to the jurisdiction of granting of probates and letters of administration, and he could not get over the difficulty of there being no safe deposit for wills and testamentary papers. He would much prefer a general Bill being introduced for Ireland respecting the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts, somewhat similar to that introduced by the late Attorney-General for England and Wales. He would, however, have clauses prepared, giving the jurisdiction to the Assistant-Barristers; and, if hon. Members thought proper, they might be inserted in the Bill in Commitee. In all cases where it would be necessary that money should be lodged, it should be lodged in the next branch of the Bank of Ireland, or provincial Bank, in the name of the Assistant Barrister, to the credit of the matter. As the duties of the Assistant-Barristers would be increased by this extension of jurisdiction, he thought that their salaries should also be increased;

1251
and he thought it would be much wiser if alt fees were abolished. It was not sufficient that the administration of justice should be pure and incorrupt, but it should also be free from all suspicion. When fees were paid, it was difficult to make the poor people understand that justice was not sold, and sold by the Judge. The Assistant-Barrister, lie believed, received from Government 500 l. a-year fixed salary, independent of the fees received by them. He would abolish the fees, and raise the amount of the additional salaries, by means of a small tax, payable upon the issuing of the summons to appear. He need not say, that it would always be desirable, but more particularly when the jurisdiction should be increased, to procure the attendance upon those Courts, of respectable practitioners. The solicitors at present practising in them were miserably paid; severe penalties were imposed on them for taking larger fees than those mentioned in the schedules to the acts; and what must be most disagreeable to their feelings, they were compelled to take an oath on the opening of each session, not to take further fees. He would abolish that oath. He would take away those penalties. He would retain the schedules, so that the solicitors could not recover more than the fees therein mentioned; but, at the same time, they ought not to be deprived of receiving more from their clients if they should think proper so to do. This, however, he admitted, was a most difficult question to deal with, and ought to be cautiously approached. In his opinion those Barristers might hold the sessions oftener in the year than they do, with great benefit to the public. In conclusion, the hon. Member said, this was not a party question, and he called upon Members upon both sides of the House, to assist him in his undertaking. He owed, perhaps, an apology to the House for introducing the measure, but when he gave notice, there was no law officer for Ireland in the House of Commons.
Mr. Shawagreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman, that the administration of justice ought to be expeditious and simple, but if they went too far, they might instead of extending the jurisdiction of these courts, destroy their beneficial effects altogether. At present the Assistant-Barrister could practise in the courts above; if his salary and his duties were
1252
increased, the one might render him independent and the other incapable of practice, and possibly such a change might not be without its advantages. The system, however, had up to the present time worked so well, that he should hesitate to make any change, unless upon very good grounds. He begged, at the same time, to assure the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, that he should be very happy to render him any assistance in preparing a measure to improve the administration of justice in those particulars, and he sincerely rejoiced to see a motion of that sort brought forward free from the bias of any party feeling.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerfelt much gratified at the tone and manner in which the proposition had been received, and he hoped that they all would continue to pursue as a common object the realization of the greatest possible amount of good for the country. He wished just to observe, that the alteration of fees payable to attornies practising in those courts was a subject which ought not to be lightly dealt with, fearing as he did, that it might open the door to an indefinite amount of reduction.
Mr. Sheilhad no difficulty in saying that the House and the country must acknowledge themselves indebted to his hon. and learned Friend, for his present exertions to improve the Civil Bill Courts. It was his opinion—nor was he singular in thinking so—that those Courts should have jurisdiction in all matters of equity. Surely the poor man should not be refused justice in cases where he was unable to defray the expense of going to the Court of Chancery or the Court of Exchequer. Ought a man for the sake of a small mortgage, or a 5l. legacy, to be compelled to incur the expense of filing a bill in equity? It was anomalous and absurd. He need scarcely observe, that the Administration Act did not require the deposit of wills, though he agreed that it might be well to have them in every case lodged in the Diocesan Court. He had recently attended the Quarter Sessions at Thurles, where some striking instances came under his observation of the severity of the law in cases of contracts, where the fairest possible claims were defeated in consequence of the contracts not having been duly drawn upon the proper stamps. The Assistant-Barrister then presiding requested him to mention in Parliament his view of

1253
the evils resulting from the neglect of the law on that point. If they could get over that and one or two other difficulties, the more the jurisdiction of those courts was extended, the more would the pence of the country be promoted, for in Ireland the greatest evils arose from the delay of justice. He was an advocate for having the Sessions sit every month, or even every fortnight; for the more frequently they sat, the more would public tranquillity be promoted. He had sometimes heard it said, that though justice was slow, it was always sure, but he would have it swift as well as sure.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.

CHANNEL ISLANDS.—TRADE IN CORN.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonrose, to move for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the present state of the Trade in Corn, between the Channel Islands and the United Kingdom. The object of his Motion was to inquire into the nature of the Trade in Corn, between this Country and the Channel Islands, as much with the view of ascertaining how far the complaint made last year, of a quantity of corn having been surreptitiously introduced into this country from the Channel Islands, were founded in fact, as for the purpose of general legislation on the subject. On those complaints being originally made, the Commissioners of Customs sent over persons to institute an inquiry, and a report was made by them, which showed that the average exportation of Corn from thence in a period of five years was little more than 2,000 qrs. The right hon. Gentleman who preceded him in office, had given notice of a Bill for regulating the exportation of Corn from these Islands, as well as the introduction of Foreign Corn into them; but circumstances had intervened, which caused its postponement. It was natural for the inhabitants of these Islands, when they saw attacked a privilege which they possessed by Charter, and which was confirmed by Act of Parliament—the exemption from duty on Foreign Corn—to call for an inquiry into the facts connected with the case, before any legislation should take place on it; and he considered that it was but strict justice to them, to accede to their wishes in that respect, and institute an investigation into all the circumstances. This inquiry would form the labours of the Committee which he prayed
1254
for. He was the more anxious that the inquiry should be instituted, because he was firmly convinced that it would be the means of dispelling the most unfair and unfounded rumours against the Government and the Islands, which had been so widely and so industriously circulated in connexion with the subject. When it should be discovered that the average export of one Island for a period of five years, was little more than 700 quarters, and of another 500 quarters, he thought that all idea of fraud on the revenue or injury to the agriculturists would be obliterated from the mind of every man who entertained an opinion of his own. It was most desirable that an end should be put to the further existence of any idea of that nature. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for the appointment of the Committee.
Dr. Bowringexpressed his satisfaction and entire concurrence, with the principle of the Motion. The result of the labours of the Committee would have a twofold effect: they would first teach an important lesson to those who spoke on such matters without information—a circumstance greatly to be desired in consequence of the mass of misrepresentation which had been made on the subject; and, secondly, it would, he trusted, prove to the full satisfaction of the agricultural community that the Corn Laws were the cause of all their distress.
Mr. Tynteexpressed his concurrence in the Motion, and his gratitude to the right hon. Mover. He had no doubt whatever that the result of the labours of the Committee would give general satisfaction.
Mr. Gilbert Heathcote, in reply to the observations of the hon. Member for the Kilmarnock district of Burghs, begged to assure him that the agriculturists of the country were perfectly competent to take care of their own concerns; and that when they wished to consult any one apart from their interest, the hon. Member would be one of the last persons to whom they would apply for advice.
Mr. Peaseapproved of the Motion, While the Corn Laws existed he thought they should be enforced. He considered that the importation of foreign grain, in quantities however small, seriously injured the home market.
The Motion was agreed to, and the Committee was appointed.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ABOYNE from Kincardine, and by Lord BEXLEY, from St. Cyru (Scotland) for a Grant to the Scotch Church; and by the Earl of ROSEBERY, against any such Grant from, various Dissenting Congregations.

THE NEW POOR-LAW.
The Earl of Shaftesbury, as there was no further business before the House, moved, that their Lordships should adjourn.
Lord Broughamsaid, that before their Lordships adjourned, he wished to call their attention to a mistake which prevailed elsewhere as to the Poor-law Amendment Bill, namely, that the provisions of that Bill enabled the overseers to separate a man from his wife—a thing which the persons who were under this mistake seemed to consider a horrid crime; and there was, he understood, a proposition to introduce a measure to take that part of

1195
the Poor-law Bill out of the Act. Now, that would be to perform an impossibility, for it was impossible to remove that which did not exist—and this provision did not exist in the Poor-law Act, in which there was not one tittle of any section giving a power to the overseers to separate the husband from the wife, nor any section giving any power of the kind, of which they were not possessed before the Bill passed, and which did not exist under the old law. He had made inquiries from several persons, and from the Commissioners themselves, and he understood that no separation had taken place under the provisions and the authority of the Act, nor could any such take place under its authority or provisions; but that whatever separation had taken place between husband and wife had been entirely independent of the Act, and had taken place under the old law such as it existed before the late Act was passed. There was no foundation in fact for the statement, there was no intention on the part of any human being whatever to separate the husband from the wife in the way described. But that they were separated in another sense of the word, though not under the new law, was possible enough. The matter had been discussed, and had been discouraged in that House when the Bill was before their Lordships; and there was nothing in the new Act that authorized parish officers to send husbands away from their wives. All the power they had on this point, they derived from the old law. To assert that they had such a power under the new law was a fiction, a pure and absolute fiction of some person's imagination. It was never intended by any human being connected with this Bill, or by the Board of Commissioners, either with reference to the metropolis or to the provinces, that such a power should be given. That, however, the overseers should claim the right of separation, not under the new law, but under the old law—that there might be such a desire on their part, was very possible. But let those who objected to this principle please to recollect the circumstances which led to the necessity of a species of separation—that of placing the wives in one part of a building and the husbands in another. There was no question about the fact, that married couples could not have separate rooms, There was, then, in the work-
1196
house, a room like a barrack, with a row of thirty or forty beds on each side; and he would ask whether any decent modest woman would like to undress herself at night, and to dress herself in the morning, in the presence of all the inmates of such a place? Finding that poor but modest women were adverse to such a plan, the overseers applied themselves to the old law, and, in conformity with it, they placed the husbands in one ward and the wives in another. Now, if those gentlemen who complained of this system would advance or give a draught for 900,000 l. or 1,000,000 l. to effect the object which they had in view, he was certain that the overseers would be exceedingly obliged to them. The calculation was, that to give to each married couple a separate room would require nearly, if not wholly, 900,000 l., and that being subscribed, there would be no necessity for the overseers to act upon the old law.
The House adjourned to Thursday next.