Sitting of 12 May 1835

MINUTES.
New Writs ordered. For Stroud, in the room of Colonel Fox, who accepted the Chiltern Hundreds; for the County of Kildare, in the room of RICHIRD MORE O'FERRALL, Esq., appointed one of the Lords of the Treasury; for the Southern Division of the County of Stafford, in the room of the Right Hon. E. J. LITTLETON, (called to the House of Peels as Lord HATHERTON); (for Malton,

1025
in the room of Sir CHARLES PEPYS, the Chief Lord Commissioner of the Great Seal; and for Poole, in the room of Sir JOHN BYNG, (called to the House of Peers as Baron STRAFFORD).
Petitions presented. By Mr. OSWALD, Dr. BOWRING, Lord STANLEY, Mr. ALSAGER, and Mr. W. CAMPBELL, from a Number of Congregations and Places in Scotland,—against any Grant to the Church of Scotland—By Dr. BOWRING, from Kilmarnock, in favour of such a Grant.—By Mr. OSWALD, from Glasgow, to remove the (late) Ministers from Office.—By Lord STANLEY and Mr. W. CAMPBELL, from Southampton, Gosport, Lorn, and other Places—for Protection to the Church of Ireland.—By Lord STANLEY, from Glasgow, in favour of General Education; and from the University of Glasgow, for a Reformation of the Scotch Universities.—By Sir HEDWORTH WILLIAMSON, from North Durham, for Relief to Agriculture.—By Mr. PEASE and Mr. WEYLAND, from Licensed Victuallers of Wallington, Darlington, Dover, and other Places, for the Repeal of the Additional Duty on Spirit Licenses.—By Mr. BLACKBURNE, from Huddersfield, against the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt Bill.—By Mr. DOBBIN, from Solicitors of Southampton, against the Ecclesiastical Courts' Bill.—By Mr. J. E. VIVIAN, for restraining the Application of Oaths.

UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND).
Mr. Humewished, on the Petition from Glasgow for a Reform of the Scotch Universities, to put a question to the right hon. Baronet below him (Sir R. Peel), and also to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. A commission was issued by a former Government, of which the right hon. Baronet was a member, to inquire into the state of the Universities in Scotland. The Report of that Commission had been lying on the Table for five or six years, and, to the great regret of the people of Scotland, no notice had been taken of it by any Government during that period. Tie wished to know if any measure had been taken by the late Government with which the House was not acquainted on the subject, and if it were, the intention of right hon. Gentlemen opposite to bring it under discussion?
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that the late Government had adopted no measure on the subject referred to. They had however, proceeded to take the Report of the Commissioners into consideration, and they had intended in a great degree to adopt their suggestions. It would be necessary, however that some assistance should be provided by the Legislature towards effecting the proposed improvement.
Mr. Humehoped, that the right hon. Gentleman opposite would follow up what had been done by the late Government in the matter.

POOR LAWS.
Mr. Cobbettpresented Petitions from High Wycombe, and another place for the repeal of the Poor Law Bill. Referring to the statement contained in one of those petitions, he said that it
1026
was true that the landed aristocracy of England had made encroachments on the rights of the people, and that he should be glad that, by an act of Parliament, the rights of the people should be restored to them, rather than by their own act, but if not by an act of Parliament, he wished to see them regain those rights by their own act. The hon. Member then presented a petition from the inhabitants of Hounslow, praying for a repeal of the Poor Law Amendment. Act. The petitioners set forth several instances of barbarous and cruel treatment of poor persons under the operations of this Bill, and adverted to the results of several coroner's inquests in the neighbourhood of London held upon the bodies of infants, and in which it had been determined that child murder had been the consequence of that measure. The hon. Member then adverted to the situation of a parish in Sussex, and censured the conduct of the Duke of Richmond who had induced a parish of Sussex to expend 2,000 l. upon additions to the poor-house, one of the avowed objects being to put an end to the horrible system of bastardy. The noble Duke seemed to forget that he was himself sprung from a bastard, and that he was only noble because he had sprung from a bastard.
The Speakerwas understood to say that such observations were not consistent with the decorum usually observed in debate.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, if he had trespassed upon decorum, he hoped that this was a case where it might be excused. If he had so offended in any matter relating to himself, the insult would have been unpardonable. Reverting to the Poor Law Act, he charged the House with having adopted its monstrous provisions without inquiry or consideration. He had also petitions of the same kind from Yarmouth; but notwithstanding the circumstances were pressing, he feared he should not be able to bring forward the motion, of which he had given notice for the day after to-morrow.
Major Beauclerkwished to repeat a question he had before put to the hon. and learned Attorney-General. A question had arisen as to the power of the guardians of the poor, to separate in their workhouses the husband from the wife, and when he had before alleged that such power was given by the Poor Law Act, he had been contradicted by the hon. and learned Member for Bath. He now wished

1027
to know from his Majesty's Attorney General whether or not such power was conferred by the provisions of the act?
The Attorney-Generalsaid it was impossible for him to give a correct answer to such a question without notice.
Mr. Humesaid, that he, in common with every man in the House, most deeply deplored such occurrences as had taken place under the operation of the Poor Law Act, but as the hon. Member for Oldham had given notice of a day on which he would submit a motion with reference to the repeal of that measure, it was scarcely fair to prejudge, and condemn it on the incidental presentation of a petition. He (Mr. Hume) was as anxious as any man that the suffering portion of the poorer classes of the community should be relieved, and it was with that view that he had supported that Bill. He must repeat his dissent from prejudging a measure without discussion, but he would venture to state (from what had already been submitted to him) that proof would be afforded to the House, that the operation of the Bill wherever its provisions had been carried into effect had been beneficial; he therefore did hope, for the present at least, that neither the hon. Member for Oldham, nor any other person, would call it a barbarous Bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerinquired whether it was the intention of the hon. Member for Oldham, to bring forward the Question of the repeal of the Poor Law Act? If the hon. Member did mean to do so, and fairly to take the opinion of the House upon it, he ought to refrain from any observations in deterioration of the measure on the presentation of a petition, an occasion upon which it was impossible the opinion of the House could be fairly taken on such a subject. He must say, it was not quite decorous so to treat an important Question, but he should not have troubled the House with any observation, except to guard against the possibility of his silence, and that of the Government, being construed into an acquiescence in the charge which had been made against the measure.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, that he had given notice of his intention to move for the repeal of the Poor Law Bill for Thursday next. He should, however, defer it until the Government had some chance of being more firmly settled than they were at present, and he therefore now gave notice
1028
that on Thursday, the 2nd of July, he should move for the repeal of the "cursed" Poor Law Act.

COMMISSIONS TO CANADA.
Mr. Hume: I rise to ask the hon. Baronet opposite when the noble Lord who has been appointed to go to Canada is to proceed thither, and how far measures have been taken for the settlement of the differences in Lower Canada.
Sir George Grey: I have to inform the hon. Member for Middlesex that the first subject which occupied the attention of the present Government, after accepting office, was the condition of Canada, and the interest regarding it was increased by the arrival of dispatches, a few days after the appointment of the Ministry, which did not give a more favourable representation of the state of affairs, but rather the contrary. The Cabinet took into its view the instructions proposed to be given by Lord Aberdeen to Lord Amherst, the intended Commissioner, but it was thought, in the first place, that the personal position of Lord Aylmer with relation to the House of Assembly was such, without prejudging the question, and not indeed having sufficient information to enable them to decide upon it, that it would oppose a barrier to the settlement of the matters in dispute. This barrier would exist, whether Lord Aylmer continued Governor, or resumed that office after the departure of Lord Amherst. The Crown was, therefore, advised to remove Lord Aylmer; and then arose the question upon the Commission—whether the object in view could best be attained by the appointment of one Commissioner or of several—whether it would not be fit that some assistance should be afforded to Lord Amherst—and whether one or more Commissioners could not be advantageously employed in inquiring into the state of the provinces, and in reporting to the Chief Commissioner. Ministers decided that the latter would be the better course for obtaining satisfactory information for the speedy and final settlement of the points in dispute. Having arrived at this conclusion, they invited Lord Amherst to become the head of the Commission, thinking that his appointment would tend greatly to the advantage of the public service; but his Lordship, feeling that the investigation would occupy a larger portion of time than was originally con-

1029
templated, declined the offer. The noble Lord now at the head of the Colonial Department is, therefore, proceeding with his duty in filling up the appointments in such a manner as, it is hoped, will best accomplish the purpose in view, by a full and impartial investigation of the whole of the differences now distracting the colony.

COMMISSION OF THE GREAT SEAL.
Mr. Harveyput three questions to the right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench. First, whether it was intended that the present Commission of the Great Seal should be permanent? Second, if permanent, whether the present Learned persons were to be the Commissioners? Third, whether they were to receive any salaries?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer: I do not mean to complain that the hon. Member has not given notice of his intention to put these questions, but merely to account for any degree of unsatisfactoriness in my replies. I can have no other objection to answering him, but I will endeavour to do so explicitly. First—it is not intended that the appointments of the Commissioners should be permanent; the placing of the Great Seal in the hands of Commissioners itself appears to imply that it is only a provisional arrangement, although in some instances it has been continued for a considerable period. This answer involves the second question; if the appointments are not to be permanent, of course the present individuals cannot continue to hold the offices they at present fill. As to the third question, I have yet had no papers before me at the Treasury, to enable me to state distinctly what will be done. The Learned individuals have been charged with new duties, but unquestionably there will be no additional burden thrown upon the public. It is a subject for consideration how far fresh responsibilities require increased emoluments, and it is possible some part of the salary of Lord Chancellor may be so applied; but the point has not yet been brought under the notice of the Treasury. I should, perhaps, have been better informed had the hon. Member given me notice that he intended to put these questions.
Mr. Harvey: I beg to add that it was not at all my wish to embarrass the Government by putting thsee questions. If I found it was intended that the present
1030
Commissioners should hold the Great Seal for any period that could not be strictly called short, I should feel it my duty to bring the subject under the consideration of the House.

NAVIGATION OF THE SHANNON.
The Earl of Kerry, after a few prefatory observations, moved, pursuant to his notice, "that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give directions to the Irish Government to take such steps without delay as would appear to them advisable for the purpose of carrying into effect the measures recommended in the report of the Select Committee, appointed during the last session of Parliament to inquire into the state of the Navigation of the river Shannon."
Lord Sandonwas understood to express a hope that the Government would carefully consider the various reports which had been made on this subject before they did anything in the matter.
Sir Frederick Trenchsupported the motion, contending that the improvement of the navigation of the Shannon would introduce the arts of civilized life among the Irish, and open a new market for manufactures, would be of more importance to Ireland than whole volumes of legislation.
Mr. William Smith O'Briensaid, that as Representative of a county which was particularly interested in the navigation of the Shannon, he felt it his duty to bear his testimony as well to the great capabilities of that noble river, as to its present neglected condition. At present all trade between Limerick and the Upper Shannon, stopped at Athlone, although, at a trifling expense, more than 140 miles of navigation above Limerick might be rendered available to the purposes of trade; and it was in evidence that the inhabitants residing upon the banks of Lough Allen would be able, if the navigation of the river were opened, to procure all the commodities required for their consumption, such as timber, iron-plate, &c, at a cheaper rate from Limerick than they were now able to obtain them elsewhere. He was rejoiced to hear, that the Government intended to take up this great national improvement. This boon to Ireland was an auspicious commencement of their ministerial undertakings; but he hoped that they would not confine their attention merely to the improvement of the

1031
main channel of the river, as they could not do justice to the capabilities of the Shannon, nor fully develope the resources of that district of Ireland through which it passed, unless they opened lateral communications to the river by the improvement of the numerous tributaries which flow into it, and at the same time constructed piers and landing-places for the accommodation of vessels. He hoped that the Government would place the care of the whole river in the hands of one responsible Board, and invest this board by Act of Parliament with the necessary powers for carrying the required improvements into effect, and for raising such tolls as it should be thought the commerce could bear without inconvenience. He was convinced that the counties adjoining the Shannon, which derived the principal benefit from the contemplated improvements, would not object to bear a certain proportion of the expense; and he was not satisfied, that although there might not be an immediate and direct return in the way of tolls sufficient to repay at once the expense of the undertaking, yet, provided the works were judiciously and economically conducted, the public would be amply repaid for any advance which might be called for by the indirect return in the way of an increase to the revenue which had always been found to arise from useful public works in Ireland. This country would also be repaid in the increased consumption of its manufactures; and it would have the satisfaction of knowing that it was the means of affording employment to an industrious and unemployed population—of producing that degree of tranquillity and subordination which is always found to accompany the employment of the people—of introducing habits of improved civilization into the heart of a neglected country, and, to use the happy expression which had been attributed to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, of opening a mine of national wealth whose treasures had been hitherto unexplored.
Mr. Ewartsaid, that his constituents and himself were justified in the support of the proposition. The importation of Irish corn, to which this plan would give increased facilities, was of great advantage to the consumer, inasmuch as it reduced the price, in the market of the English corn. He gave the motion his most cordial support, under the conviction
1032
that it would be at once a boon to England and to Ireland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad been favourable to the proposition when out of office, and should not oppose it now that he was in the service of the Crown. He, however, thought that the motion might in its terms be amended, so as to be more consistent with the views of the Legislature. The motion in its present shape implied a grant of money, and therefore ought properly only to be made after the consent of the Crown had been obtained. The object might also be better defined, leaving it more generally to the Government to interfere. He suggested to his noble Friend the propriety of allowing his motion to be amended in such a way as would not pledge the house to a grant of money, but would leave the question open, to be brought forward by the Government in pursuance of the reports on the subject, the right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving an amendment to that effect.
Mr. Fitzstephen Frenchsaid, I regret, Sir, that what has fallen from the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer renders it necessary for me to trespass on the House. Under ordinary circumstances, and in an ordinary case, I might have allowed the amendment that my right hon. Friend has proposed, to pass without a remark, but I feel the improvement of the river Shannon is a subject too important to be passed over with a vague resolution such as this. The interest of the United Kingdom demands that it should no longer be trifled with; some assurance ought to be given to us of the nature of the measure to be brought forward, and a definite time ought to be named within which such measure should be laid on the Table. The House must recollect three years have elapsed since the able and comprehensive reports of Mr. Rhodes on the state of this river have been before the public; the estimates of which these reports have been founded were submitted to the Board of Works in Dublin, and were examined into by a Committee of the House last Session; their accuracy was not nor could not be questioned by them—it is distinctly shewn the entire of this great river can be made available for commercial intercourse, the uncertain time of passage from Killaloe to Lough Allen now varying from a month to six weeks, reduced to the certainty of a daily one.

1033
The quays necessary for trade erected, in which the river is deficient to an extent scarcely credible, the necessary allocations of the old bridges, and the building of the new ones, effected for the small sum of 153,163 l. Let Government bring forward a measure founded on those reports, and I am confident the House, always so liberal in measures of real utility, will not refuse their assistance. Centuries ago, when a King of England threatened to remove the seat of Government to Oxford, the reply of the Londoners was—his Majesty could not take away the river Thames. True, you cannot take away the river Shannon, but you can, by refusing your assistance, deprive us of its advantages. Is it your object so to do? Is it the interest of England so to do? Are not the two countries so identified that you cannot depress the one without injuring the other? I consider Government are bound to remedy the evils which have resulted to the country from what I will term the negligence, but what others might call, and with some foundation, the downright dereliction of duty of their predecessors, with the property of the river vested in them. The guardians of its navigation, the existing laws, have not been enforced—eel weirs and other obstructions destroying its navigation, and injuring thousands of acres of the country adjoining, have been suffered to be erected not only without opposition, but without remonstrance. The Limerick navigation, to which since the union considerable pecuniary assistance had been given—the great key of the river remained for years designedly blocked up, until the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, during his secretaryship in Ireland, forced it to be opened. The middle Shannon, which was in 1806 given up to the grand canal company, with a grant of 54,000 l. remains to this day with that contract unfulfilled—vessels drawing three feet water constantly grounding where they were bound to have six feet in depth at least. Mr. Williams, the enterprising and able director of the inland steam navigation company, states he found the works in this portion of the river in a state of dilapidation, the contract with Government unfulfilled, and intercourse almost impracticable. He has since, at considerable pecuniary loss, induced the company to put their works into somewhat better order; but was it not the duty of Government to have seen the con-
1034
ditions of the contract performed, for which they gave up the navigation of so considerable a portion of the river, where the trade must be of importance, as here are situated the towns of Athlone, Banagher, and Portumna; on the upper Shannon, under their own immediate control, and to which also considerable assistance has been given, a portion of the works remain unfinished—those that have been executed, originally badly and imperfectly constructed, are daily and rapidly sinking to decay. The House may judge the care, caution, and judgment, with which the money granted for this part of the river was laid out, from the following fact:—In the specification of the contract for the canal from Battlebridge to Lough Allen, no mention was made of tow paths for the horses drawing the boats to travel on; no mention of levelling, or removing to a certain distance the stuff excavated, in its formation; the consequence was, a consequence which every practical man must have foreseen, that shortly after it was declared finished it was rendered nearly useless by the sliding in of its banks, and so has it remained to the present hour. These circumstances, I consider, give us a right to call for the assistance of Government—an assistance the more imperatively required, when we consider that without it, it is impossible to get a work of this description, or any other improvement in the inland navigation of our country effected, as it might be here by the private capital of the inhabitants. The failure, as a matter of pecuniary speculation the mismanagement of the chief works of this description already undertaken in Ireland, such as the Grand and the Royal canal, have created a prejudice in the minds of the people which can only be overcome by Government following the course pointed out by other countries, and proving by example that works of public utility can be combined with a profitable outlay of capital. I have said the works to which I have alluded failed from mismanagement, and from mismanagement alone. I think I am fully borne out in that statement. One of these canals cost upwards of 19,000 l. a mile, the other upwards of 18,000 l., while the eminent engineers of the present day consider 3,000 l. a mile would have been ample for either; the want of professional skill was so great that on the Grand canal after it was declared finished, it was found necessary to erect intermediate locks to

1035
correct the level. Seven miles of this canal after being finished were abandoned, and a new line chosen—two miles of the royal canal cost 70,000 l., one quarter of a mile of the grand canal 60,000 l. Is it a matter of surprise that works such as these did not pay? But had the outlay been judicious, had the expense been within the bounds of moderation, the return would have been ample, as the Grand canal, after the payment of all expenses, returns 300 l. a mile; and the Royal returns 300 l. a mile, out of which the expenses are to be deducted. In 1822, 20,000 l. was granted for the survey of the Shannon, 40,000 l. was before that expended on the bog reports, and after having laid out 60,000 l. in ascertaining the practicability and expediency of these measures, are we now to hesitate in carrying them into effect? will the small sum of money which is required tempt you to defer, or, call it by its proper name, to abandon, a measure of immediate benefit to Ireland, of proportionate advantage to England? Are the sums of money already laid out to be considered as wasted in establishing an idle and useless theory—in demonstrating the truth of a proposition no rational man ever doubted; is now for the first time, when Ireland is the object, a fit of petty economy to seize on his Majesty's Ministers, an economy which did not govern them when the barren hills of Scotland, or the distant regions of Canada were in question? Is a sum of money to be refused, the benefit the nation will experience from which is not questioned, the return of which is beyond all doubt? The hon. Member for Middlesex may shake his head and intimate his doubts as to this fact, but I will ask him to look to the effects already produced in Ireland by the application of public money when judiciously expended, to the increase of revenue wherever navigation has been assisted or internal intercourse established, and till we are independent of the higher political principles which ought to govern, and which I trust do govern his mind, as a matter of pounds, shillings and pence, has not the nation been amply repaid? He has the evidence of Mr. Nimmo, that in consequence of the expenditure of 160,000 l. in Connaught in seven years, the annual increase of the revenue was equal to the entire of that expenditure. Mr. Griffith expended 60,000 l. in the Cork district, and the increase of the Excise and Customs was 50,000 l. a-
1036
year. Mr. Blake tells us in four years the Excise and Customs in Galway more than doubled, indeed nearly trebled. All agree as to the moral effect on the people. Does not that improvement in their condition alone repay you? Does not an annual increase of your revenue, equal to the entire of your expenditure, repay you? But must the hon. Member struggle for his Jew's bargain, his triple interest, and three-fold usury? And is Ireland a country so to be dealt with? Compare the state of her inland navigation with that of England, or with a portion of it, equal in square miles to Ireland, and you will find the one has in canals and navigable rivers upwards of 5,000 miles, while the latter has not 500. In water communications alone there has been expended in England thirty millions, in Ireland not four. The different aspect of the two countries shows the vital importance of furnishing the means of rendering labour available—of bringing the fruits of industry to market. The hon. Member for Liverpool has properly stated that this should be considered a measure not of local but of national importance. In corroboration of his opinions he has referred to the declaration of the Liverpool merchants last Session, a body probably better qualified than any other to pronounce what would promote the interests of both countries; but independent of the opinion of the Liverpool merchants, although I consider it of great importance to have their authority on this occasion, I would ask any hon. Member who hears me, whether it would be possible to consider a measure merely one of local importance, which would add 230 miles in the main river, and 150 in the tributaries, to the navigation of a country now so deficient in that great element of national prosperity; which would open to the commerce of England a river running through the centre of Ireland, affording the advantage of 500 miles of coast; which would bring a market to the doors of the inhabitants of two millions of acres in the valley of the Shannon; which will afford to a third of the counties in Ireland a facility of disposing of their agricultural produce; which will encourage the outlay of private capital, and create amongst the people, now utterly neglected, habits of industry and civilization? No, it is not, it cannot be considered merely of local importance; nature has done her part, let man do his; let not this magnificent river

1037
longer be permitted to remain neither contributing to the convenience, nor adding the wealth of the nation. Let the few obstructions which now impede its navigation be removed; the elements of traffic are in abundance; the busy hum of commerce will soon succeed to that dreary stillness that now marks its wide waste of water; internal intercourse will be established, and the national resources of the country will be developed; respect for the laws, peace and prosperity, will succeed to illicit distillation, discontent, and disturbance; a disturbed pauper population will be converted into an orderly and profitable class of consumers; the impulse given to our agriculture will be communicated to your manufactures; the rising prosperity of Ireland will be fostered, while the meridian greatness of England will be secured; and if it is necessary to say more, I would call on you to recollect, that all this so practical in its nature, so easy in its execution, so trifling in its expenditure, will be permanent in its result. I have now only to return thanks to the House for the attention with which they have listened to me, and to assure them, that nothing but the position in which I stand, as Representative for the county in Ireland most interested in the improvement of this river—70 miles of it border my county, 60 miles of the great tributary, the Inch, separate it from Galway, the two tributaries, the Casindoe and Boyle waters intersect it. Joined to all this, the capital is so placed that a four miles' canal would join it to Lough Ree. These circumstances and these alone have induced me to trespass on the House at the length I have done.
Sir Robert Peeldid not understand what public object was to be gained by pressing the noble Lord's Motion, especially after the assurance on the part of the Government that they would take into consideration the reports which had been made on the subject, an assurance which ought to satisfy the supporters of the proposition. To say the least, it was unusual to address the Crown to direct the Government to do that which the Government had already undertaken to do. This would certainly be an anomalous proceeding. If an opinion was to be implied by concurring in the Motion, let the House have the papers and sufficient information before it, in order to form a correct judgment, before expressing an opinion on the subject. He thought, however, that in the
1038
absence of the necessary information, and after the observations made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would be the more prudent course to give the Government the time which they demanded to consider the subject. The report recommended that the whole subject should be taken up and considered together, and a question would arise in what proportions the districts to be benefited by the navigation ought to contribute, and what should be the amount of tolls. These points could not now be satisfactorily adjusted. If any great public good, or if an important national object connected with the pacification of Ireland, were to be attained, he would be willing to give a grant of money; but it ought to be demonstrated that the poposition came within the prescribed conditions; otherwise, if a merely local benefit were to be effected, the district interested in it should contribute to its accomplishment; or the matter might be carried into effect by private speculation, if there were a probability that the outlay would be repaid. The hon. Member for Liverpool intimated that the proprietors of land on the line of the Shannon would be enabled to undersell the English grower in the corn market, if the desired communication were effected. Now, it was too much to take money out of the pockets of the English to enable their Irish neighbours to undersell them. If the corn-growers of Ireland were to gain this advantage, it ought to be at their own expense; it was not fair to take the money for carrying the project into effect out of the pockets of those who would be injured by it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid that there would be no economical objection to the proposition, if a clear case were made out in its favour. He hoped his noble Friend would see that it was better not to hurry the Government in its proceedings, especially as he (Mr. S. Rice) was willing to take on himself the responsibility of introducing a measure founded on the reports in question.
Mr. Lynchthought that the noble Lord had obtained all he wanted in the promise of the right hon. Gentleman to bring forward a proposition founded on the reports after due investigation. He fully agreed with the right hon. Baronet opposite, that the proprietors on the proposed line should contribute to a plan by which they were to be benefited; but he also thought that the manufacturers of this country ought to

1039
bear a portion of the expense, by which the introduction of their commodities into the Irish market would be facilitated.
The Earl of Kerryhad no objection to withdraw his Motion after the assurance offered by the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer. At the same time he begged it to he understood that he had no wish to take a large sum from the people of this country without requiring any contribution from Ireland towards the accomplishment of the object in question.
The motion, by leave, withdrawn.

THE SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. Fowell Buxton, in bringing forward his promised Motion on the subject of the Slave Trade, observed, that no person who had not witnessed the atrocities of that abominable traffic could have an adequate conception of the crimes, miseries, and cruelties to which it gave rise. He requested the attention of the House to facts which he should lay before them from Parliamentary documents—facts that indicated the extent to which the Slave Trade was now carried on. He held in his hand a list of importations of slaves into the Brazils. The returns from the British Consuls from the 1st of January, 1829, to the 30th of June, 1830, a period of one year and a half, was as follows; viz.

Slaves

Ships.

Died on passage

Para

779

6

30

Maranham

1,252

13

89

Pernambuco

8,079

26

308

Bahia

22,202

70

768

Rio de Janeiro

81,956

200

6,912

114,288

315

8,107

In three years and a half 150,537 slaves were introduced into Brazil through the single port of Rio de Janeiro. But this did not include the whole number deported from Africa; it only extended to the number introduced alive: we knew nothing of the amount of mortality that occurred among the slaves on their passage. In 1830 the Slave Trade had been legally abolished, notwithstanding which, however, he was sorry to say, it now proceeded with almost as much activity as ever. This he gathered from the report of the Minister of Marine to the Legislative Assembly, which was as follows:—
"Rio de Janeiro, June 17, 1833. Well known are the tricks resorted to by speculators, as sordid as they are criminal, to continue the disgraceful traffic in slaves, in spite of all the
1040
legislative provisions and orders issued respecting it, which have been most scandalously eluded. It, therefore, appears necessary to the Government to have recourse to the most efficacious means, which are, to arm a sufficient number of small vessels to form a sort of cordon sanitaire, which may prevent the access to our shores of those swarms of Africans that are continually poured forth from ships employed in so abominable a traffic."
Among many causes of the present extent of the Slave Trade, one was an apprehension, which he hoped was well founded, that the European Powers would soon exert themselves to put an end to the abominable traffic; another cause, which he trusted might prove ill founded, was, that it was thought the experiment recently made in the West Indies would fail, and consequently that there would be an increased demand for Brazilian sugar. Another cause of the extent of the Slave Trade was, that the Brazilian mines
were worked by slaves, by means of the application of British capital. To show the extent to which the trade was carried, he might state that there sailed from the port of Havannah alone, as slavers, for the coast of Africa, in the years 1822, 1823, 1824, 1825, and 1826, 96 vessels, and from the 1st of January, 1827, to the 30th of October, 1833, 264 vessels, in a period of six years and a half. When slaves could be obtained through the means of this traffic, it became a matter of calculation whether it might not be for the advantage of the owner to work out his slave in a few years, rather than, by milder treatment, to retain his labour for a longer period. Of the slaves obtained by this mode, a number died before they could be seasoned to their new mode of life. But the greatest stage of mortality to the negroes was in what was called the Middle Passage. Of the extent of that mortality, he could give no general account that could be deemed accurate, because there were no means of obtaining any thing like authentic information upon the subject. But it fortunately happened that in the vessels captured by his Majesty's cruisers, they had the means of knowing exactly what the mortality was, and from these a conclusion might be drawn as to the amount of the mortality in general. He begged to call the attention of the House to the following instances:—
Case of the Midas,
"Havannah, July 17, 1829.
"The mortality on board this brig has been

1041
dreadful; she sailed in May last with a cargo of 562 slaves from the river Bonny on the coast of Africa, and had only 400 alive at the time of detention; of these, after the surrender, a number through fright, as it is supposed, threw themselves into the sea, so as to reduce the number to 369 at the time of the captors counting them the day after the action. Unfortunately, owing to unfavourable winds and the small force of the Monkey, she was obliged to remain some days at anchor Bahama Bank with her prize, so that, the of her arrival in the Havannah, nine other negroes had thrown themselves overboard, notwithstanding the utmost care on the part of the captor, who had placed sentinels on the outside of the brig: 69 others also had died of the small-pox, and the other diseases which have been, owing to the confinement on board, ravaging this brig almost ever since she left Africa. After her arrival in this port (Havannah), your Lordship (Earl of Aberdeen) will perceive, from the inclosed letter of the mixed Commission to the Captain-General, that 10 more died; thus making the mortality of the negroes on board, after capture, 88, and the number given up by the captors to the Governor, to amount to 281. According to the reports of the medical men, they are still, I grieve to say, in a most dreadful state, already reduced to about 253, and those so ill and emaciated, that it has hitherto been impossible to make out the description of their persons and marks that are inserted in their certificates of emancipation."
Case of the Fama da Cadiz, alias Nueva Diana.
"Havannah, July 31, 1829.
"On the 22d inst. the long-expected privateer called the Fama da Cadiz came into port, having previously landed 300 slaves at Santa Cruz; it is said that this notorious slave trader and pirate was boarded by one of his Majesty's sloops on the coast of Africa, but liberated on account of having no slaves then actually on board; she afterwards plundered other slave vessels of about 980 slaves, and had scarcely sailed for this island with them, when the small-pox and other contagious diseases broke out, which reduced a crew of 167 to 06, and her slaves to about 300, of whom the greatest part are in so wretched a state, that her owners have been selling them as low as 100 dollars."
Case of the Constancia.
"Havannah, Sept. 30, 1829.
"On the 21st inst. the Spanish schooner Constancia da Ferrer arrived in this port in ballast, after having landed 70 slaves on the coast. She is said to have left Africa with 438 negroes, who have been reduced by the small-pox to the above small number. The mortality on board the slave vessels this year has been truly shocking."
Case of the Ricardo,
"Havannah, Nov. 30, 1829.
"On the 25th inst. arrived the brig Ricardo, D. M. Moran, master, which sailed from this
1042
port so long ago as the 2d of October, 1828' having been blockaded by one of his Majesty's schooners in the river Bonny. It appears that after losing a great part of her crew, and a whole cargo of negroes by sickness, she was obliged to sail for this island in ballast."
But not to trouble the House with any further details upon that point, he might state at once, that the mortality on board 106 ships, condemned between the 1st of January, 1827, and the 1st of January, 1833, at Sierra Leone, was as follows:—

Vessels.

Slaves.

Emancipated.

Spanish

34

8,322

7,426

Portuguese

28

3,671

3,287

Netherlands

8

1,573

1,381

Brazilian

36

7,596

6,143

106

21,162

18,237

Emancipated

18,237

2,925

Left at Fernando Po, ill

161

Died between capture and adjudication.

2,764

The next point to which he begged to call the attention of the House, was the crowded state of the slave vessels. Upon that point he would only mention a few cases.
State of the Maria.
"Havannah, Jan. 25, 1831.
"The Maria, being only 133 Spanish tons burden, and having on board, in addition to her slaves, forty seamen, making a total of 545 persons, gave the almost unprecedented small space of one ton for the accommodation of four souls, and the quantity of provisions, water, &c. required for their support, during a voyage probably of forty days to the Havannah."
State of the Carolina, captured by the Isis,
Captain Polkinghorne.
"The effect produced upon all the gallant boarders by the miserable appearance of the slaves could only be alleviated by remembering that they were the means of their being rescued; but it was still very affecting. A vessel of only 75 Spanish tons was crammed with 350 human beings, 180 of whom were literally so stowed as to have barely sufficient height to hold themselves up when in a sitting posture. The poor creatures crowded round their deliverers, with their mouths open, and their tongues parched with thirst from want of water. They presented a perfect ghastly spectacle of human misery; ten of them died soon after. The crew of the vessel consisted of fourteen Spaniards, who were landed at Prince's Island."
He had thus proved from official documents and, not from mere private sources of information, that there had sailed from the port of Havannah alone, between the

1043
1st of January, 1827, and 30th October, 1833, no less than 264 vessels avowedly engaged in the Slave Trade; and that into one port in Brazil not less than 150,000 slaves from the coast of Africa were reported to have arrived. In short, he had proved from the most authentic sources of information that the Slave Trade was at this moment carried on with as much activity as it had ever been since the disgraceful traffic commenced. Having established that fact, it would, he trusted, be unnecessary for him to press upon the House the necessity of taking some speedy and effective step for putting a stop to such a dreadful and disgraceful system of commerce. It would naturally be asked what step could be deemed most effective towards the abolition of this revolting trade? He (Mr. F. Buxton) would in the first place recommend that all vessels captured with slaves on board should invariably be broken up, because under the present system it was well known that every captured slaver, if her reputation as a sailer was good, was immediately bought up by those engage in the traffic, and in the course of a very few weeks was again engaged in the trade. In the next place, he would recommend that some alteration should be made with respect to the reward or remuneration of the officers of the navy engaged in the service on the coast of Africa. He thought that, considering the great hardship of the service, the officers should receive promotion in proportion to the severity and danger of the service, and that they should receive prize-money in proportion to the tonnage of the ship captured, and not in proportion to the number of slaves. Then it would become a matter of consideration as to what should be done with respect to those treaties on the subject of the Slave Trade which had been so shamefully neglected or so shamefully
abused by foreign powers. Upon that part of the subject he thought there were four points to be considered; and first, he would recommend that the slave trade should be deemed piracy by all nations. Second, that there should be a right of search. Third, that that right of search should extend over the whole coast of Africa where the trade in slaves was carried on; and Fourth, that the equipment article should be enforced to this extent, that whenever a vessel was found with all the equipments necessary for carrying on the slave trade, she should be
1044
deemed a lawful prize, even though at the time of the capture she should happen to have no slaves on board. Now it so happened that in all the treaties hitherto drawn up for the suppression of the Slave Trade one or other of these points bad invariably been omitted. And therefore it appeared to him, that in lieu of the various treaties which at present existed upon the subject, and which foreign powers had so grossly neglected, it would be better that one uniform treaty should be drawn up, embracing the four points he had just enumerated. From what had recently transpired, he had reason to believe that little difficulty would be found with France upon the subject; and looking at the more liberal Governments which had lately assumed the reins of power in Spain and Portugal, he trusted that, even in those countries, a better feeling with respect to the Slave Trade would be evinced. In the case of the two latter countries, indeed, England had a right to insist upon their compliance in her views, because she had paid them for so doing. Spain, by a treaty agreed to in 1817, was paid by England no less a sum than 400,000 l. for the share she was to take in the abolition of the trade, and yet she had done nothing since except to promote it. At all events, it became the imperative duty of England to suffer no longer a period of time to elapse before she took some decisive step to put an end to a trade which was the means of murdering every year no less than a hundred thousand human beings, and which tended only to the enrichment of a parcel of miscreants, who, if justice were done to them, would die the deaths of murderers and pirates. With these views of the subject, he would conclude by moving—
"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to thank his Majesty for his gracious condescension in having from time to time, been pleased to communicate to this House the 'Correspondence of his Majesty's Government with foreign powers,' and 'with the British Commissioners, relating to the slave trade.'
"That this House has considered these documents with the attention they claimed, and has learnt from them with feelings of astonishment, grief, and indignation, that the traffic in slaves not only still continues to be carried on to an enormous extent, but that it is attended with circumstances of increased and aggravated cruelty, and that too under the flags of some of those nations who were parties to the Declaration made by the Congress of

1045
Vienna in the year 1815, wherein they asserted that 'The traffic known under the name of the African Slave Trade has been regarded by just and enlightened men in all ages as repugnant to the principles of humanity and of universal morality;' that 'The public voice in all civilized countries has demanded that it should be suppressed as soon as possible:' that it was 'Their desire to put an end to a scourge,' which they therein described as having 'long desolated Africa, degraded Europe, and afflicted humanity;' and a final triumph over which they acknowledged would be 'One of the greatest monuments of the age which undertook it and which shall have gloriously carried it into complete effect.'
"That notwithstanding this Declaration was solemnly agreed to by all the Great Powers of Europe in Congress assembled, and by them formally promulgated in the face of the world, this House has since been called upon to witness some of those very Powers afford it the protection of their flags, by refusing to adopt effectual measures for its suppression, although repeatedly urged to do so by his Majesty's Government, whose representations and arguments have been forcibly reiterated by his Majesty's representatives resident at their respective Courts; and that, although his Majesty has entered into treaties and conventions with these Powers for the suppression of this execrable traffic, in consequence of which certain laws have been enacted and edicts issued; yet these laws and edicts, for want of efficient means having been adopted to give them practical effect, have remained inoperative; and this House has learnt with surprise from the correspondence laid before it by his Majesty, that when this fact had been represented by his Majesty's Government, his Majesty's representations and remonstrances have either been neglected altogether, or met by promises, which subsequent events have proved were mere pretexts for delay, alike discreditable to the Governments who made them, and insulting to the Monarch to whom they were addressed. In this expression of its opinion and feelings, this House has particularly in its view the conduct of the Courts of Spain and of Portugal, who are bound by formal and solemn treaties with his Majesty totally to abolish the Slave Trade, so far as their subjects and the use of their flags are concerned, and who for this purpose have actually received money by votes of this House to the amount of seven hundred thousand pounds sterling, and the remission of a debt to the amount of six hundred thousand pounds more, which were granted on the faith of those very treaties, which these Governments are nevertheless so far from carrying into effect, that, on the contrary, they allow their flags to be degraded by covering the largest portion of this infamous traffic in the blood and sinew of of their fellow-men, as is fully proved by the documents his Majesty has communicated to this House.
1046
"That this House, therefore, humbly and earnestly beseeches his Majesty to call imperatively upon the Courts of Spain and Portugal to act upon the declaration of Vienna to which they were parties, and immediately to fulfil in good faith the treaties they have respectively entered into with his Majesty for the entire suppression of this trade; and this House further implores his Majesty, should his Majesty still find that these Powers hesitate to act up to the spirit and to the letter of their solemn engagements, to refuse to enter into any treaty or convention with them for any other purpose whatever.
"That although this House has seen, with deep regret, that down to a late period the trade in slaves has been carried on to a considerable extent under the flag of France, still this House views with satisfaction the success which has attended the measures its Government has adopted for its suppression; and this House congratulates his Majesty on the completion of a treaty, conceding the mutual right of search, to which, at one period, almost insuperable objections on the part of France seemed to exist. But although this House acknowledges with gratitude his Majesty's exertions in effecting so much, still this House humbly represents to his Majesty, that much yet remains to be done to complete the total annihilation of the trade carried on under the protection of the French flag. And this House looking to what has already been effected, is confidently led to hope that the recommendation by his Majesty of further measures, having for their sole object the total suppression of this trade, alike condemned by both nations, will find ready acceptance by the Government of France, particularly as the interests of its subjects are now represented to be no longer involved therein. And this House, therefore, humbly suggests to his Majesty, that great advantage to the cause of humanity would be gained by inducing France to consent to an extension of the limits of the mutual right of search already agreed upon, to the whole line of the coast of Africa, and to that of the Island of Madagascar: and this House indulges the hope that his Majesty may be pleased to avail himself of the opportunity which the pending negotiation for a treaty of commerce with France presents, to gain, not only the consent of her Government to this important alteration, but also to join Great Britain, the United States of America, and the Brazils, in the measure they have already taken of declaring the trade to be piracy.
"That this House has observed with grief, that an immense traffic in slaves has been carried on under the flags of other nations, notwithstanding his Majesty's unceasing exertions in negotiating with their respective Governments in the hope of inducing them to carry into effect their own solemn engagements for its effectual suppression; and this House feels deeply humiliated by a sense of the comparatively small success which has

1047
resulted from its labours and from the sacrifices it has made in this great cause; and it cannot refrain from expressing, in the strongest terms language will afford, its grief, and undisguised indignation at the little attention which has been paid by Foreign Powers to the unceasing endeavours of three successive British Monarchs to give them effect. But, notwithstanding all these disappointments, when this House reviews the whole of this most painful subject, it still sees in the present state of public feeling respecting it, in almost every country in Europe, and in America, reason to hope for final success: and feeling that this country has acquired, by the force of its own example, the right to call upon other nations to respect and promote the peace and happiness of the African race, which forms so large a portion of the great family of mankind, this House once more approaches His Majesty to implore and beseech his Majesty to renew, with increased earnestness, his negotiations with all those Governments under whose flag this infamous traffic is still carried on, calling upon them to co-operate in good faith with his Majesty in completing the triumph which they themselves have declared will be one of the greatest monuments of the age which shall have carried it into effect.
"That this House, with a view to the attainment of this just and humane object, humbly beseeches his Majesty to revise, with his allies, all the treaties which they have respectively entered into with his Majesty, having for their object the suppression of this traffic, in order to reduce the terms and stipulations contained therein; which at present vary greatly from each other, into one solemn league between all the contracting Powers, and to introduce into this general treaty, first, an extension of the limit to the right of search, to the whole of the western coast of Africa, and between degrees on the eastern coast of the same continent; and an agreement that this right of search shall be allowed, not only as between each particular country and his Majesty, but be extended to a reciprocal right of search between all the contracting parties. Secondly, that the right of seizure shall be extended to vessels equipped for the purposes of trading in slaves, although not actually having slaves on board. Thirdly, an agreement that all such vessels as may be condemned by the Mixed Commission Courts, shall forthwith be broken up, or otherwise effectually destroyed; and, Fourthly, a stipulation that the trade in slaves shall be declared to be piracy.
"That this House cannot conclude this Address to his Majesty without humbly soliciting his Majesty to consider whether those Sovereigns, whose flags have not been degraded by having been engaged in this cruel traffic, but who were assembled in Congress at Vienna, may not be called upon, in virtue of their having joined in the declaration there made to co-operate with his Majesty in en-
1048
forcing the high and solemn obligations and engagements which they entered into at that momentous period: and this House is again led to revert to the suggestion which was countenanced by those high contracting parties, of excluding from commercial intercourse with their respective dominions, any state which should pertinaciously refuse to abolish the slave trade, after it shall have been prohibited by all other nations,"
Mr. Humeentirely concurred in the propriety of expressing some strong and decided opinion on the absolute necessity of putting a stop to the Slave Trade: but he thought that the hon. Member would have effected his object better if he had avoided the use of language which might serve to irritate Foreign Powers. Besides, it should be recollected that those Powers were not the only parties who deserved blame; for, in his opinion, the Government of this country was liable to censure for not insisting on the execution of the treaties for the suppression of the Slave Trade. He thought it would be better that a motion embracing so many facts, and extended to so great a length, should be withdrawn; and that a short, decided, and firm resolution—a resolution which the House could not fail to understand and adopt, should be submitted in its stead. It was almost too much to expect the House suddenly, and upon the instant to agree to a motion which extended over not less than nine pages. At all events, he would recommend that it should be printed, and be suffered to stand over for a few days, so that hon. Members might have an opportunity of making themselves acquainted with it before they were called upon to adopt it. Whenever a proper time arrived for a discussion of the subject, he (Mr. Hume) should be prepared to state that the measure of Slave Emancipation adopted two years since by the British Legislature, had succeeded in several of the West-India islands to an extent far exceeding anything that could reasonably have been expected.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas understood to say, that the important object of the address before the House had been communicated to the Foreign-office, and he understood that with respect to it, no objection was entertained in that department. With regard to the recital of facts contained in the address, that had been compared with public documents, and found to be correct. Whether it be advisable or not to adopt a shorter

1049
address than the one just moved, appeared to him to be rather a question of form than of substance; but he knew of no subject more befitting the attention of that House and of the Government than that to which the address had reference; and he should be sorry to see the tone which the House ought to adopt in the discussion of such a matter any way lowered. The British Government were not only bound by the obligations of treaties to put a stop to the Slave Trade, but was also bound in justice to the West-Indian proprietors, to see that they were subject to no unfair competition on the part of foreigners. Thus not only humanity, but the interest of the West-Indian colonists, called on the Government to omit no step calculated to put down the Slave Trade. With respect to the objection taken by the hon. member for Middlesex, to the length of the motion, he begged to state that he certainly did recollect that on a former occasion, an Address to the Crown had been opposed on account of its length; but it should be borne in mind that that address consisted not of facts extracted from public documents on the Table of the House (as the present one did), but of the reasoning of the hon. Member who moved it. With respect to the suppression of the Slave Trade, he believed that France was willing to co-operate cordially with this country; and he expected that Spain and Portugal would be found ready to enter into some satisfactory arrangement for the same purpose. To effect this object, no means had been left untried by successive Governments, and he was sure that they could not be fairly accused of neglect of duty. This address would not impede any negotiations pending at present, nor was it inconsistent with an accurate statement of facts. He asked his hon. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, whether he thought that any convenience would arise from withholding the assent of the House from this address to-night, and from reviving the discussion upon it on a future occasion? He put it to the House whether, in the present state of Parliamentary business, his suggestion ought not to be acceded to.
Mr. Cobbettcontended that until they could prevail on the Government of the United States to grant the right of search they never could put an end to the traffic in slaves. He objected to the length of the address, Nine pages of address car-
1050
ried to the ears of a King, was a monstrous absurdity.
Mr. George F. Youngsaid, that though he entertained a strong opinion in favour of all the statements which the hon. Member for Weymouth had made, and of all the inferences which he had drawn from them, he yet hoped that the House would be cautious in the mode of exercising its interference. On their decision of that night, might, perhaps at some future period, depend the question of peace or war. To be asked summarily to come to a resolution on a long statement of alleged facts, which nobody had heard before that evening, was not what he had been accustomed to in his Parliamentary experience. They were acting in a manner that must inevitably lead them into difficulties, and he hoped that his hon. Friend, the Member for Weymouth, notwithstanding the sanction given to his address by his Majesty's Government, would delay pressing the House to a decision upon it that evening.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdenied that he had given any sanction on the part of Government to the proposed address. He had not offered any objection to it, as it contained nothing but facts which had been previously stated in papers laid on the Table of that House.
Mr. F. Buxtonconcurred with the hon. gentlemen opposite, in thinking the address too long. He knew that the attention of Parliament had not been drawn to the subject, and that it was therefore necessary either to include in the address, or to exclude from it all the premises upon which it was founded. He had, therefore, determined to introduce them into the address, for the purpose of reviving the recollection of them. If he had confined himself to a short address, it must have been to this effect—that the House requested His Majesty to take certain measures, and that the House would support him in those measures to obtain redress. His original object had been altered by obtaining information that certain negotiations were still pending with Foreign Powers, and he felt that he ought not to use towards them in such contingencies, any language that might be deemed uncourteous. He wished it, however, to be understood, that if any thing like past trifling were persisted in, he should call on the House to take measures, to put down the abomination which

1051
existed at present. Having said thus much, he would now add, that he would withdraw his present address, and on a future occasion propose a shorter address in its stead. He could not sit down without stating that he had listened with great pleasure to one part of the speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex. He had recently seen the authority of his hon. Friend appealed to in a debate in the French Chamber of Deputies, for the purpose of proving that the great experiment attempted by England, with respect to the Abolition of Slavery had entirely failed. He knew that such was not the case; and he was glad to hear his hon. Friend add his testimony to the same fact. There was also another point which he wished to mention: he should be the last person to charge either the present Government or that which preceded it, with any neglect on this subject.
Motion withdrawn.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of GORDON, the Earl of ROSEBERY, the Earl of GALLOWAY, the Earl of HADDINGTON, Viscount MELVILLE, the Duke of SUTHERLAND, the Earl of CAWDOR, the Earl of ROSSLYN, and the Marquess of BUTE, from a Number of Synods, Presbyteries and Parishes in Scotland,—for Additional Church Accommodation (Scotland).—By the Earl of ROSEBERY, from several successive Congregations, and from some Parishes,—against any Grant of Money to the Church (Scotland).—By the Duke of GORDON, from the Inhabitants of the Vale of Leith, to Share in any Grant for Education.—By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Clenard (Ireland) for Protection to the Protestant Church (Ireland).—By the Duke of GRAFTON, from Licensed Spirit Dealers of Thetford, for the Repeal of the Additional Duty on Spirit Licences.

PRISON DISCIPLINE.
The Duke of Richmondpresented the first Report of the Committee, of which he had the honour to be a Member, on the subject of Prison Discipline. The Committee had not yet brought their labours to a close, but they presented this first result of their labours, and begged to draw the attention of the House to some subjects well deserving consideration. Some prisons in this country were, in their opinion, in an improved state; but they thought that, the prisons of Newgate, Giltspur street, and the Borough Compter, were in a state that must tend to corrupt those who were imprisoned in them, and were much more likely to increase than diminish the amount of crime. The Committee had adopted six resolutions. The first was, that it was expedient that one uniform system of prison discipline be established in every gaol and house of correction in England and Wales; the second, that, for the sake of securing uniformity of discipline, it is expedient that the rules and regulations of the gaols shall in future be submitted to the Secretary of State for his approval, instead of, as at present, to the judges of assize; the third, that inspectors of prisons be appointed to visit the prisons from time to time, and to Report to the Secretary of State; the fourth, that entire separation, except during the hours of labour and of religious worship and instruction, is absolutely necessary for preventing contamination, and for securing a proper system of prison discipline; the fifth, that silence be enforced, so as to prevent all communication between prisoners both before and after trial; the sixth, that persons whose trials have been postponed, or who, having been tried, have been acquitted on the ground of insanity, shall not be confined in the gaols
1016
or houses of correction. The Committee expressed their regret that the words of the resolution under which they were appointed were of too limited a nature, and they proposed that instead of their inquiry being confined to England and Wales, it should be extended to Scotland. They promised to lose no time in the prosecution of the several branches of inquiry. When the Report and evidence should have been printed and distributed, he should take an early opportunity of calling the attention of the House to this important subject. He now moved, that the Report be received and be printed, that the powers of the Committee in their inquiry should be extended to Scotland, and that an Address should be presented to his Majesty praying for copies of the Returns relative to borough and city gaols made under the 5th Geo. 4th, c. 84. Motions agreed to.

COMMISSIONERS OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION (IRELAND.)
Viscount Duncannonasked when the right reverend Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) would present the petition of which he had given notice relative to the charges against some of the Irish Commissioners of Public Instruction?
The Bishop of Exeteranswered, that it was not his intention to present the petition alluded to until Government laid before their Lordships the Report of the Commissioners of Public Instruction. He had hoped that a Report from that Commission would have been made by this time, and as he did not think that the Report of the Commissioners could be much longer delayed, he should abstain at present from bringing the subject before their Lordships. Having waited so long, it seemed to him that more justice would be done to the case by waiting a little longer for the production of the Report of the Commissioners.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, that the two Commissioners were now in this country, and he hoped that no delay would occur in bringing the matter forward. The Commissioners were most anxious to meet the charges, so that he hoped they would be brought forward at once without reference to the Report which he could not think affected them.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that the noble Lord must forgive him if he did not assent to the last statement. The charges he had to bring forward had much to do

1017
with the Report. The conduct of the Commissioners in executing the Commission was in question, and it was exceedingly proper to see what their conduct had been at the time, and how it had been followed up by the Report. Adhering to the course which he thought was most important to justice, he should wait till the Report was presented before he brought forward the charges.
Viscount Duncannonremarked, that the Report could not affect the case, for the charge was only against two of the Commissioners, with reference to five parishes, and above seven hundred parishes had been examined into.
The Bishop of Exeterwas confident in the propriety of the course he had determined to pursue. The Report was promised to be presented at an early day, and when that was done he should bring forward the complaint.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
Lord Broughamsaid, that it was desirable to correct an error that had got abroad on the subject of the Central Criminal Court. It was stated in the Report just presented, that the learned Judges had tried but a small proportion of the cases of crime; and it was further said, that the City Officer had tried the majority of the cases. He moved for a return of the number and description of the cases tried, with the judgments pronounced in each, during the six months ending on the 5th of April last, and during the corresponding six months in the years 1830, 1831, 1832, 1833, and 1834.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that there was no charge against the Judges in the Report.
Lord Broughamadmitted, that there was not; that was the thing he complained of. Such things were always done in an indefinite sort of a manner, but the insinuation was conveyed, though any one who was acquainted with the matter knew that the Judges always tried the graver class of cases, those that required the fullest degree of consideration.
Agreed to.

LONDON UNIVERSITY.
Lord Broughamsaid, that as he saw his noble Friend the President of the Council in his place, he should put a question on the subject of the London University. Their Lordships were aware that a vote had been come to
1018
in the other House of Parliament pending a proceeding in the Privy Council, showing the strong feelings of that House on the subject of the grant of a charter to the London University. That vote was followed up by an Address to the Crown, praying for the grant of a charter. The answer given was, that the matter had been referred by his Majesty to the Privy Council—that it had been heard before them, but that that body had not come to any decision, and had not yet advised the Crown on the subject. That was the substance of the answer; but it was also stated, that when the advice of the Privy Council had been given, the earliest opportunity would be taken to lay it before the House of Commons. Nothing had yet been laid before the House of Commons; and their Lordships were aware that when he had before asked a question on this subject, he had stated that in the week when the Government of which he had formed part left office, he was in correspondence with some Members of the Privy Council who had heard the case argued, in order to call them together, that they might make up their minds on the subject, and give in their report. What he now asked was, whether any steps had since been taken, or would soon be taken, for carrying into effect the intention of the former Government as to the assembling of the Privy Council.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that his noble and learned Friend was well aware that no step had been taken by the late Government on the subject, for the question was put to them at a late period, and just before the change in the Administration. No step had yet been taken by the present Administration, for their Lordships must be aware that some of the Ministers, whose attention would most naturally be directed to this important subject, had been so occupied elsewhere, that it was impossible they should have been able to take it into consideration. Due regard, however, would now be paid to it and to the important Address of the House of Commons, and his noble and learned Friend might be assured that no time would be unnecessarily lost. At the same time he ought to mention, that one other petition had been presented on the subject since the time when the question had been last put in this House.
Lord Broughamsaid, that the answer was satisfactory so far as the noble Mar-

1019
quess stated that no unnecessary delay would take place, but it was an inadvertence of his noble Friend to say that any delay whatever was necessary on account of the absence of the noble Secretary for the Home Department; for that noble Lord was not necessarily called on to give his opinion on the subject, since he had not heard the argument. The noble Lord, however, might be expected to be consulted, not as a judge in a judicial proceeding, but as an adviser of the Crown. The House of Commons, the great adviser of the nation, had already given its advice with respect to the recent petition of the King's College; it was clear that that body could not be affected by the grant of a charter, and had no right to petition on the subject. The other body, the London University, did not object to a charter being granted to the King's College. On the contrary, they would be glad to see such a charter granted, and he had authority to say, that so far from opposing, they should rejoice at it.

BREACH OF NAVAL DISCIPLINE.
Lord Broughamsaid, that seeing the First Lord of the Admiralty in his place, he begged leave to ask him a question on a subject which had given him very considerable surprise, and which he believed had excited much astonishment in the public mind. He alluded to a very great outrage said to have been committed by a captain in the navy in respect to a gentleman who was a passenger on board his ship, then on the Mediterranean station. Nothing was imputed to this individual beyond bad temper; that bad temper, however, it was alleged, had caused him to act improperly, but nevertheless no court-martial was held on him. Now, when he recollected that Lord Brudenell, one of the most gallant and deserving officers in his Majesty's service, was by the sentence of a court-martial dismissed from that service, to which he was an ornament, and to which his whole heart and soul and life had been devoted, it did appear to him (as in this case the complaint likewise arose from some infirmity of temper) that it was extraordinary why the same course was not pursued in the one instance as in the other. Why, he asked, was not a court-martial held in the one case as well as in the other? If the facts were not true—if the rumours were founded on fiction—he should be greatly delighted to find it so;
1020
but if they were true, then that inquiry should take place which would take place in the case of an ordinary captain, who was not protected by powerful friends, on the principle of strict impartiality.
Lord Aucklandhad received no clear and distinct knowledge of the circumstances referred to, and which were said to have occurred on the Mediterranean station. The whole of the case, as he had heard it, rested on vague rumours and newspaper reports; he would say that it rested on the most vague grounds imaginable. If the circumstances were brought before him in a more regular and a more tangible shape, he should consider it to be his duty to act upon the advice of those with whom he should feel it necessary to consult.
Lord Broughamsaid, the statement of the noble Lord gave him great satisfaction, so far as it went. It was a sort of confirmation of the truth of that which he suspected—namely, that there was no real foundation for these rumours. Still he thought that the noble Lord ought to direct inquiries to be made in the proper quarter on this subject; because, whether these rumours were well founded or not, they were very prevalent out of doors, and the mere negation of proof in that House, and their Lordships' disbelief of them, would not lead the country in general to discredit them.
Viscount Melvillesaid, the transaction alluded to had occurred on the Mediterranean station, where a flag officer commanded. The person, therefore, who felt himself aggrieved had a right to apply for redress to the Admiral in command, and to call on him to summon a court-martial to investigate the case. The Admiralty could not, in the first instance, take the matter up. The matter was in the hands of the flag-officer.
Lord Broughamsaid, that doubtless the course pointed out by the noble Viscount was the proper one; but that course not having been pursued, he conceived that the Admiralty ought to have instituted an inquiry.
Viscount Beresfordexpressed his surprise that this subject should have been brought forward by an individual who, he believed, was totally uninterested in the proceeding referred to. He knew both the parties very intimately, and he knew that they were now perfectly satisfied with each other. The matter was solely of a private nature, and he never before heard

1021
of a third person coming forward (in the name of whom he did not know, and on behalf of whom he could not tell) and terfering in a case of this kind. The whole affair had been amicably and cordially settled, and he knew not on what principle the noble and learned Lord got up in his place and intermeddled with it.
Lord Broughamcould not but observe, when the noble Viscount spoke, of his intermeddling in this case, that it was the first time he had ever heard that a Legislator, speaking of a public officer employed on the public service, interfered improperly when he alluded to a breach of public duty by that officer. The noble Viscount had told their Lordships that both the parties were perfectly satisfied. Precisely the same thing was asserted some years ago, when the case of a seaman was brought before the House of Commons, first by Sir Francis Burdett, and afterwards by Mr. Whitbread. But when at length an inquiry was set on foot, it turned out that one of the parties was not satisfied. The noble Viscount then had a long lesson in Parliament to learn, if he thought that this was the first time when a matter of this description was thus introduced to the Legislature. Here was a captain in his Majesty's navy, who, it was asserted, had used his power for the gratification of private spleen against an individual. This was not a private Question, it was one of a positive public character, requiring, nay, demanding public cognizance, by the people's Representatives in the House of Commons, or by their Lordships, representing themselves in that House. It was the doctrine and the practice of the constitution. The noble Viscount might sneer at the idea of the constitution; but whatever constitution he might have been at the birth of, or at the death of, elsewhere, he would tell the noble Viscount, that the constitution of England called imperatively on both Houses of Parliament to keep a watchful eye on the two services—that of the army and that of the navy. Let it not, therefore, be said that the public breach of a public duty by a public officer was a matter of a private nature.
Viscount Beresfordhad not sneered at the mention of the constitution. He denied the accusation. The noble and learned Lord had no authority for making it. He had not given the noble and learned Lord any reason for making such an ob-
1022
servation. He would repeat, that this was a private concern—a private dispute—if it were any thing at all. Two gentlemen, it appeared, had a misunderstanding. One of them was neither a sailor nor soldier on board, but a passenger. He knew not, therefore, how the thing could be taken up by the Admiralty. Of this, however, he was certain—that, whatever it was that occurred, it had been perfectly, and fully, and satisfactorily settled, with reference to all the parties. Therefore, he must say, notwithstanding the constitutional right for which the noble and learned Lord contended, that he could not see what the object of the noble and learned Lord was in bringing before the House the private quarrels of two gentlemen.
The Marquess of Salisburysaid, that there was one other point connected with this matter which he must notice, and that was the want of common courtesy in the noble and learned Lord. It was always the custom in that House when any noble Lord was about to bring forward a matter relating to any one who was connected with any other Member of that House, to give such Member notice of the matter, that he might take the opportunity of being in his place, and giving the House proper information, or affording an explanation of the matter. The noble and learned Lord had quite forgotten this common rule of courtesy, or the individuals most nearly connected with the noble Lord, whose conduct had been thus attacked would have been in their places to meet the attack.
Lord Broughamdenied that he had made an attack upon any person.
Lord Colvillehoped that their Lordships would draw no such inference from newspaper reports as the noble and learned Lord appeared to have done. He was convinced that the noble and gallant officer to whom allusion had been made, and whom he well knew, would himself have called for a court of inquiry, if he conceived that his conduct demanded it. He would not have left it to Members of that, or of the other House to have investigated the case, if he had felt that there was any ground or necessity for inquiry. He would have at once applied to the Admiral on the station for a court of inquiry. With respect to the allusion which had been made by the noble and learned Lord to the case of a seaman, which had been taken up by the House of Commons (and which, he believed, was a weak case

1023
after all), that seaman was not in his Majesty's service when the matter complained of occurred, and therefore he had applied to a Member of Parliament. In the present instance, the officer alluded to, was serving under the immediate orders of the Admiral commanding on the station, to whom, if redress were wanted, application should have been made. He begged pardon for occupying their Lordship's time, but he could not sit quiet in that House and hear an officer in his Majesty's service traduced as the noble and gallant officer alluded to had been traduced by the noble and learned Lord.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in answer to the extraordinary observations of the noble Lord, who had accused him of traducing an officer in his Majesty's service, he would ask whether there was any impropriety in noticing a rumour which was in every man's mouth? This subject was a matter of general conversation whenever the Mediterranean fleet was mentioned. Fifty times had he been asked why the matter had not been taken up in that or in the other House of Parliament? He had answered, that he did not know, but that he thought, if Government were interrogated about it, they would be able to give a satisfactory answer. Now, he would say, that the answer which had been given was satisfactory as to the Government, but it was not satisfactory with reference to the Admiral on the station, or to the officer in question. That House or the other House, was bound to inquire, when an officer did not appear to have done his duty, whether an investigation had taken place by the proper authorities; and, if such an investigation were made, they should know what was the reason that prevented the individual against whom complaint had been made, from being brought to a court-martial.
Lord Colchesterdid not rise to find fault with the noble and learned Lord, for making the first inquiry on this subject, but for the observations he had since made upon it. It appeared to him that the way in which the noble and learned Lord had acted, was an attempt to cast a reflection on the conduct of a noble and gallant officer. If the noble and gallant Lord who commanded, had been guilty of conduct derogatory to the character of an officer and a gentleman, he could not but think that the gentleman who had suffered from, it, would have taken some step to
1024
vindicate himself. He would have applied to the Government or to some Member of either House of Parliament. He had, however, extended his forgiveness to the noble Lord, if any forgiveness was required, and would the noble and learned Lord destroy the amicable termination of the matter? He did not question the right to make the inquiry, but he thought that in this case inquiry was unnecessary.
Lord Broughamsaid, his objection was to the alleged conduct of a public officer, and had nothing to do with the injury inflicted on the individual, and all consideration of which such individual had a right, if he pleased, to wave from private or personal feelings. His objection was directed to a breach of discipline, by an officer of his Majesty's navy, in having used, for purposes of private vengeance (and he cared not whether the party aggrieved had forgiven that officer or not), those powers which had been intrusted to him for other and very different ends. His objection was, that an officer had commanded his men to do an act which had no connexion whatever with the discharge of his public duty.
Lord Colchester: The noble and learned Lord states positively that this officer committed a breach of discipline, but where is his proof.
Lord Brougham: I expressly stated that I wished there might be found no shadow of foundation for these rumours, but I was desirous to know the truth.
The Duke of Buccleughdid not wish to prolong this conversation, but he was anxious to state, on the authority of a person who was on board the vessel at the time, that there was nothing in the case that could warrant the rumours and reports which had been circulated. He knew not how those reports had originated, but he was satisfied that there was nothing in the conduct of the noble and gallant officer to call for the interference of the Admiralty. In justice to the noble and gallant officer he deemed it necessary to make this statement.