Sitting of 1 August 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of HARROWBY, from Stafford and Ludlow, against the Municipal Corporations' Bill,—By the Earl of FALMOUTH, from Penryn,

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and by Lord GRANTLEY, from Guilford, to the same effect.—By the Duke of NEWCASTLE, from Nottingham, against the 9th and 10th Clauses of the Bill.

CORPORATION REFORM.
Counsel having been again heard, and having brought their case to a close, they were ordered to withdraw.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that before their Lordships separated that evening, he was anxious to express a wish which proceeded from the bottom of his heart—that the noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government would, out of regard for the honour of that House, and out of regard for his own honour and character, and those of his colleagues, between that time and Monday next, weigh well the course which he intended to pursue. Never before did their Lordships stand in the situation in which they were now placed. After the speeches which had been made at their Lordships' Bar, and which had carried conviction to the mind of every one who had heard them,—if there was a particle of honour in that House, their Lordships would act in such a way as would cause England still to be what she had been—a great and respected nation. If, after the two powerful appeals which had been made to the House, and he believed that no noble Lord could put his hand upon his heart and say, as a gentleman and a man of honour, that the speeches of the learned Counsel had not proved that the Bill before the House unjustly assailed at once the prerogative of his Sovereign, and the rights and liberties of his fellow-countrymen—if, after those appeals, their Lordships should consent to proceed with the Bill, he hoped from the bottom of his heart and soul that they would receive hereafter their merited punishment. He would scorn to belong to a body of men who would allow such a Bill to proceed further. He called upon their Lordships, in God's name, to resist it now, if they knew what was due to their own character. Let a Parliamentary Commission be issued, let full and fair evidence be collected, and then if a measure were introduced founded upon that evidence, it should receive his best consideration, and, if worthy of it, his support; but he implored their Lordships, as they valued their own character, and the tranquillity and happiness of the country (for this was but the beginning of the storm, and their Lordships could not deprive a body of their fellow-subjects of the privileges and property belonging to them without exciting feelings and letting loose
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principles which must produce the most disastrous consequents), not to proceed with a measure, into the proposing of which Ministers must have been inconsiderately betrayed by those whom they employed to collect evidence, which was, to use the mildest term applicable to it, degrading to its concoctors. "It is well known," continued the noble Earl, "that I am no party man. I am of no party but that of my country, and, therefore, I hope the noble Viscount at the head of the Government will pay some deference to what I say, when I implore him to weigh well, between this and Monday, the course which he will pursue, for his decision will be of the deepest importance for good or evil to this once happy land. Oh! why should it not be happy, as it once was before all these changes were heard of? Willingly would I, at this moment, give up all I possess in the world to see England what she once was. Once more I call upon your Lordships not to entertain a measure which involves one of the most atrocious attacks on rights and property with which a deliberative assembly was ever insulted by being called upon to adopt."
Viscount Melbourne: I will now state the course which I intend to pursue with respect to this Bill. Two Counsel having been heard at the Bar, according to what I understood to be the wish of many of your Lordships, I now move that the further proceedings with respect to the Bill be adjourned to Monday, and on Monday I will move that the House shall resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.
The Earl of Winchilsea: I give notice that on Monday I will move, and divide the House upon the Question, that an humble Address be presented to his Majesty praying that he will be pleased to lay before Parliament any further instructions which may have been given to the Corporation Commissioners than those contained in their public Report. It is important that we should know whether any instructions were given to the Commissioners besides those which meet the eye in the document before us.
The Duke of Newcastle: Am I correct in supposing that the noble Viscount means to allow evidence to be heard at the Bar in support of the statement of Counsel? [Lord Melbourne: Certainly not.] Then I have no hesitation in declaring that I conceive the conduct of the noble Viscount to be directly opposed to every constitutional principle which should guide the

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conduct of a Peer and a British subject. The noble Viscount is about to deprive a portion of his fellow-subjects of property and privileges which they possess as clearly as those which we ourselves enjoy. It is, indeed, astonishing that the noble Viscount and his friends, who have always talked of maintaining the rights of the people, should now propose to abrogate them by this arbitrary and revolutionary measure. The Counsel who have addressed your Lordships have nobly and honourably discharged their duty. For my part, I do not hesitate to say, that the Minister who has introduced this atrocious measure for destroying the rights and liberties of his fellow subjects deserves impeachment, and if no other person be willing to come forward to impeach him, I will do it.
Lord Brougham: It is an unusual course for the judge who is to try, to begin by being the party to prosecute. I do not think that such a course is consistent with the ancient principles of British justice. My noble Friend must be impeached by the Commons of England, and it will be for your Lordships to try him. When my noble Friend is put upon his trial, I will endeavour to set aside my feelings of private regard, and apply myself to the case with that strict sense of justice for which the learned Counsel at the Bar gave me credit when I sat in the Court of Chancery.
The Earl of Falmonth: I wish to know whether, on Monday, I may be at liberty to move that evidence be heard at the Bar? ["Yes"].
The Duke of Cumberlandsaid, that as the discussion had exhibited somewhat of warmth, he ventured to suggest that it would be best at once to adjourn all further debate till Monday.
Lord Broughamwished the discussion to be adjourned, but not the House, because he wanted to make a Motion.
Lord Lyndhurst: Has the noble Viscount any objection to lay upon the Table the evidence taken by the Commissioners?
Viscount Melbourne: The Report is on the Table.
Lord Lyndhurst: I am aware of that. We are in possession of an aggregate Report and a variety of particular Reports, which are founded, as I understand, on evidence collected by the Commissioners. What I ask is, whether the noble Viscount is willing to have that evidence laid upon the Table?
Viscount Melbourne: I can't lay it upon the Table; I do not believe that it exists in
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such a shape that I can lay it on the Table.
Further proceedings adjourned till Monday was then agreed to.