Sitting of 17 March 1834

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—County Coroners' Bribery Law Amendment.—Read a third time:—Juries (Ireland); Mutiny.
Petitions presented. By Mr. HUTT, from Kingston-upon-Hull, for an Alteration in the Timber Duties; and from the Tea-Dealers and Brokers, for a uniform Duty on all sorts of Tea.—By Mr. INGHAM, from North Shields, for a Legal Inquiry after Seamen who are lost at Sea, &c.—By Lord ORMELIE, from Perth and other Places, for an Alteration in the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland, and by Mr. ABERCROMBY, from Edinburgh and Leith, to the same effect

TEA DUTIES.
Mr. Hutthaving presented a petition from certain tea-dealers and others in London, against the new Tea-duties,
Mr. Crawfordrose to offer a few observations upon the petition. It was from the tea-dealers, brokers, and others in the City of London, interested in the tea-trade, praying that one uniform rate of duty might be imposed on all kinds of tea imported into the united kingdom. The petition claimed the serious attention of the House and the Government, not only on account of the number and respectability of the signatures attached to it, but from the vast importance of the subject, and the suggestions the petitioners had felt it to be their duty to submit to the House, which, in his opinion, involved considerations of the greatest importance to the Revenue of the country. The petitioners had no object inconsistent with the interest of the public Revenue, nor did they seek a reduction of the duty on their own account, or on the ground of conferring a benefit on the consumer of the article; but they sought protection against the fraud they apprehended would be committed, the evasion of duty which would necessarily take place, and the vexation which would be experienced by the operation of a system of rated duties imposed by the Bill, which passed with such inconsiderate rapidity through that House at the termination of the last Session. The duty paid upon public sales was ninety-six per cent upon the lowest class of tea, which was bohea, and 100 per cent upon all others, according to their value. The duty was assessed by an officer selected by the East-India Company, and the money was paid forthwith into the Exchequer, free from all deductions. That system appeared to him a most excellent one; but it had been admitted by common consent

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that such a system would not be practicable under the altered state of the trade to India. Two alternatives had presented themselves—a rated, or a uniform duty; and the Government had, in his opinion very unwisely, adopted the former course. It was only fair, that he should state the reasons which induced him to come to such a conclusion. To render a system of rated duties beneficial, there were two most important requisites. The first was, a certainty and facility in distinguishing the different qualities of the article taxed, without which there arose impediments to the free and convenient course of business, and to the due collection of the Revenue; and the second was such an adjustment of duty to the relative value of the various kinds and qualities in the market of consumption as would not destroy the prevailing and free operation of the taste of consumers; for any violent action on prices, occasioned by the imposition of unsuitable relative duties, would alter the course of consumption, though it might not extensively affect the aggregate quantity consumed, and thereby greatly reduce the amount of Revenue. The scale of duties was deficient in each of these requisites. His objection to the want of certainty in distinguishing the various qualities was, because the sorts described in the several classes were not distinguishable by any defined or acknowledged tests, particularly as between bohea and congou. The black teas were all believed to be the produce of the same plant, variously acted upon by soil, culture, aspect, season, harvesting, and subsequent progress of preparation for the market. For these and numerous other reasons, as well as the vast varieties set forth in a trade catalogue of the East-India House sales, he asked how it was possible for a Revenue-officer to determine, on any well-established ground of confidence, the precise difference between bohea and congou, or congou and souchong, on occasions when there occurred anything like a close approximation of quality? Correct discrimination was utterly impossible. In establishing the force of his second objection, he was compelled to trouble the House with a reference to figures. Bohea, which now paid ninety-six per cent, was to be charged with a duty of 1s. 6d.; congou, now paying 100 per cent, with 2s. 2d. The difference of the duty, therefore, would be forty-four per cent, while the difference of value to
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the importer (the short price without duty) was from two to six per cent, and the difference of value in the market of consumption—that value being the long price, having the duties added to it—between the bulk of bohea and congou was about ten per cent. Therefore,

s.

d.

s.

d.

When bohea sold for

1

11

and congou for

2

1

The duty 96 per cent

1

10

and 100 per cent

2

1

The wholesale cost was

3

9

and

4

2

When bohea sold for

1

5

and congou for

1

7

The new duty

1

6

and

2

2

The wholesale cost was

2

11

and

3

9

The relative value of these teas for consumption, as ascertained by public sales, was shown, in the first statement, to be as fifty for congou to forty-five for bohea. Then, when congou was worth 3s. 9d., bohea would be worth 3s. 4½d.; and, therefore, bohea, in the hands of the importer, would be worth 1s. 9½d., when congou was worth only 1s. 7d. The operation of the altered duty would be to make bohea which was two to six per cent cheaper than congou, thirteen and a-half per cent dearer in the importer's hands, or short prices. This scale of relative value would continue, in spite of any fiscal regulations of the noble Lord, just so long as taste continued the same, and the same relative quantities were brought to the market. The immediate effect of the scale of rated duties, in his opinion, would be, the relinquishment of so much duty which would go into the pockets of the first importer, while the consumer paid the same as before. It would also disturb the present settled course of demand, by means of the premium offered for the introduction of low qualities into consumption. Congou would be readily transformed into bohea, by deteriorating its quality four to six per cent, when it was admitted to consumption at forty-four per cent less duty. It had been considered somewhat paradoxical that any lowering of duty (all other things remaining the same) should not produce an equivalent fall of price in the particular article relieved; but this seeming paradox was easily explained by an illustration in corn, which was a subject every one claimed to understand in the present day. Contrasted with the measure of rated duties, which, being founded on an unsound basis, was, he would say, unfortunately impracticable in its details,

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was the simple principle of one fixed rate of duty. What the amount of that duty should be it was not necessary to discuss; it was enough to say that as it need not, so he believed it would not, bear with any increased weight on the poorer class of consumers. It would render unnecessary the whole of that corps of tasters and inspectors otherwise about to be enrolled. It would prevent the necessity for, and, therefore, save the merchant from the trouble and vexation which would attend a Custom-house examination of every chest to be imported, and would at the same time protect the Revenue from fraud, and, in his judgment, promote its productiveness.
Lord Althorpsaid, he felt the petition to be one of the greatest importance, and one that deserved the serious consideration of the House. It was impossible to hear the very able speech that had just been addressed to the House without giving the hon. Gentleman credit for great knowledge of the subject. The graduated scale of duty which had been imposed by the Government was not with a view to force a change in the consumption of tea. The hon. Member was well aware that an ad valorem duty had been paid by the old law, and it was admitted on all hands, that a fixed duty could not be continued. The great object of the Government in the course they had pursued was, that the poorer classes of the country should be supplied with the commoner teas at a low rate of duty, and that those consumed by the higher classes should be subject to a greater duty, in proportion to the quality of the tea. A great objection had been made by the hon. Member as to the practicability of making a distinction between the qualities of the various teas which were imported into this country. With that view an experiment had been made at the Board of Control. Several persons were called in who had an extensive knowledge and experience of the value of tea, and they were called upon to decide upon the quality of the different samples placed before them. The result was, that out of all these individuals, who perfectly understood their business, only one instance of mistake occurred. This circumstance led the Government to suppose that no difficulty could occur in distinguishing the varieties of the teas. The experiment had been made in America, and had been found to work most successfully, and this
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circumstance was a strong inducement to try it here. It was material for the House to observe that the hon. member for London had taken the lowest price of congou in comparing it with bohea, and he had certainly made a statement which showed that the varying duties were a great temptation to fraud. He perfectly agreed with the hon. Member, in reference to the collection of the tax, that no doubt could exist so far as a simplification of the machinery was concerned, that the interest of the Government would be greatly affected by a fixed duty. Upon the whole, however, he thought it of such vital importance that the lower classes should obtain cheap tea, that he should feel very reluctant, notwithstanding the forcible arguments that had been used by the hon. Member, to abandon the system without having made a trial.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, there could scarcely be a subject of greater importance brought under the consideration of the House, than that which had been introduced by the presentation of this petition. The House was discussing what was to be the future duty, and the mode of levying it, on an article of general consumption, which yielded last year a revenue of 3,300,000 l.—a source of revenue which was collected at less expense than any other, and imposed a smaller burthen on the public than any other tax of one-third its amount. They were about to try a most important experiment with respect to the mode in which that duty was in future to be collected. Let the House bear in mind, that by the regulations about to be adopted, tea could be imported into any portion of the kingdom. Let the House also recollect, that this was an article, the amount of revenue derived from which was subject to the greatest possible fluctuations. Previous to the alteration of the Tea-duties made by Mr. Pitt, in 1784, a great portion of the teas imported into this country was smuggled. To such an extent did this practice of smuggling prevail, that Mr. Pitt found it necessary to introduce the Commutation Act, in order to put it down; for at that period, 13,000,000 lbs. of tea were consumed in the United Kingdom, and yet but 5,500,000 lbs. of tea were furnished by the East-India Company, the rest being secured by illegitimate means. The duty on tea, at that time, amounted to between 700,000 l. and

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800,000 l.; but, in order, if possible, to prevent smuggling, Mr. Pitt diminished the duty to such a degree, as to have only 170,000 l. revenue collected on the article. Was it wise, then, when they were on the eve of a great experiment in the whole trade to China, to adhere to that change in the Tea-duties which was introduced in a Committee of Supply, on the 15th of August;—in fact, in the dog-days, when the duties of the Legislature had devolved upon a very small number of the Members of that House? Who could deny, that the measure which was now proposed by his Majesty's Government, was a hazardous experiment? Free trade might, perhaps, counteract all the disadvantages incidental to the proposed alterations; but it became of peculiar importance, now that the Legislature knew the dangers by which the proposed system was beset, and was aware of the complications by which it would be attended—to see that no regulations were adopted which were not perfectly simple, which did not exclude every temptation to fraud, and which did not prevent, as far as possible, the injurious consequences of smuggling. The noble Lord said, that the effect of the intended plan would be to lower the rate of duty on the tea used by the poorer classes, and to raise the amount of duty on that consumed by the rich. It was certainly a plausible and a strong argument in favour of levying such a duty, that the amount of the revenue necessary to be raised, was apportioned to the means of the different classes by whom this article was consumed. He greatly doubted, however, that the measure of the noble Lord would have that effect. He would take the liberty of stating, for the information of those Gentlemen not conversant with the tea-trade, the principle upon which the scale of duties fixed by the noble Lord was regulated. Hereafter a duty of 1s. 6d. per pound was to be levied on bohea, not as an ad valorem, but a fixed duty; 2s. 2d. on congou, and 3s. on the better description of teas. These duties were fixed on the supposition that these teas were respectively consumed by the lower, the middle, and the higher classes of society. If the duties on these teas were paid exactly in the way assumed by the proposers of this measure, there might be some grounds for calling upon the House to accede to these regulations. The truth
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of this assumption, however, he altogether denied. There was a difference of 8d. in the pound made between the lower and the intermediate description of teas, for the purpose, as it was said, of benefiting the poorer portion of the community. From levying the duty in that way, it must be presumed that the poorer classes consumed the worst description of tea. In contradiction to that assertion, he would only ask any hon. Member to inquire of those retail dealers who lived in the neighbourhood of the places inhabited by the working classes, what description of teas were generally bought by that portion of the people, and he (Sir Robert Peel) was satisfied he would find that it was not tea of the worst quality which was consumed by that class of the community. It was an incontestible fact, that the quantity of bad teas sold by them bore no proportion to those of a superior quality; and that for every chest of bohea sent from their stores, 100 chests of congou were purchased. Take Ireland, for example, as a country in which it was said the greatest poverty prevailed. He would not venture to say what exact proportion the consumption of good and bad tea bore in that country to each other; but this fact he would state, without any difficulty, that the quantity of congou sold in that country far exceeded that of bohea. To show still further the fallacy of this assumption, he would merely state the declaration of the East-India Company themselves, at their last sale, to show that congou tea was consumed by the great mass of society. The quantities of this description of tea sold were—

Bohea

1,500,000 lbs.

Congou

5,654,000

It would appear, therefore, from this statement, that the noble Lord, instead of bestowing a boon on the poorer classes of the community, would, by his project of a fixed rate of duty, materially increase the price of those teas generally consumed by the population of tins country. He would, in confirmation of this view, call the attention of the House to a statement of the teas sold by the East-India Company, consisting of the first class of bohea and common congou, during the last three years. It was as follows:—

In 1831, the finest bohea

3,300,000 lbs.

common congou tea

7,700,000

In 1832, the finest bohea

3,620,000

common congou

8,183,000

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In 1833, the finest bohea

3,404,000

common congou

9,116,000

Notwithstanding so large a consumption, he would venture to say, that the difference of price at the sales was not above 1½d. in the pound. What was it they were now about to do? It was proposed to make a difference in the duty of 8d. per 1b. on these two classes of tea. What would be the consequence? A direct encouragement would be given to the consumption of a bad article. What was the course pursued by the East-India Company with regard to bad teas? Why, they destroyed all teas of a very inferior quality, because they were of opinion that if the article were brought into discredit, and strong prejudices entertained against it on the part of the public, its extensive use would, in a very short time, be seriously endangered. It would become, under the proposed regulations, the decided advantage of China to send an inferior article into this country. Now, with respect to the fine class of bohea, as had been proved by the hon. Gentleman, the member for London, in the able speech which he addressed to the House, he (Sir Robert Peel) should be glad to know how it was possible to distinguish it from congou? The plant was the same, and the difference in quality resulted from the nature of the soil on which both kinds were grown. It was proposed that there should be inspectors appointed, not alone in the port of London, where persons of long experience might, perhaps, succeed in discovering the difference between these two leaves, but in every port into which teas could under the recent change, be imported; so that to the opinion of an inspector, in one of the outports of Scotland, was to be left the decision of fixing the rate of duty, which might often involve a question of the highest importance to the trader. Suppose an inspector, though an honest man, desirous to increase the revenue, and that, for that purpose, he should fix a higher rate of duty than he was justified in imposing, what protection, in such a case, had the honest dealer against such a decision? If, for instance, a vessel from China were to bring 20,000 chests of tea, each weighing 80 lbs., it might make no less a difference than 50,000 l., according as the duty were paid upon the tea, as bohea or as congou. This was, perhaps, an extreme case; but it showed the power which they were about
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to give to the inspectors at the different ports. The noble Lord said, that he was anxious to try this plan, which he proposed as an experiment. He (Sir Robert Peel) maintained however, that they ought not to incur a risk which involved such serious consequences, without well considering the practicability and the policy of carrying the system into execution. The whole system was, in his mind, so complicated, and the danger to the revenue would be so great, that he besought the House not to come to a hasty conclusion on a measure which professed to bestow a benefit on one portion of the people, but was, in reality, fraught with the most pernicious consequences to all classes of the community.
Lord Althorp Lord Althorp moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. The debate was adjourned.

SLAVERY ABOLITION ACT.
Mr. F. Buxtontook that opportunity, seeing the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of the Colonies, in his place, of asking a question or two which related to a subject of very great importance, and was deeply interesting to many both in and out of that House. He wished to know whether the great experiment of last year, with reference to negro emancipation, had, as far as it had hitherto proceeded, satisfied the reasonable expectations of Government? A Report had been circulated, that very important intelligence had been received from Demerara, manifesting the most cordial and conciliatory spirit on the part of the masters of slaves, and exhibiting at the same time the best disposition on the part of the negroes. It was also reported that in the island of Antigua the House of Assembly had passed an Act for immediate emancipation, without the intervention of the term of apprenticeship. With regard to Jamaica, he had also heard, indeed he had seen a letter from that quarter to the effect, that but for some unaccountable misapprehension, that the parent Legislature was anxious that the apprenticeship clause should not be dispensed with, they would have followed the same course, by passing an Act for immediate abolition. He was anxious to know whether Government had received any official information upon these points? There was only another thing to which he would allude. There had been a strong apprehension, he believed, in many instances,

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honestly entertained last year by many hon. Gentlemen, both in and out of that House, that in consequence of the measure then adopted, the ordinary quantity of provisions and stores would not be sent out to the West Indies. Now, he had been given to understand that the quantity of stores sent out fell very little, if anything, short of the usual supply. Feeling the importance of the subject, and well knowing the great interest attached to it out of doors, he was anxious to ascertain whether the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies could give any official information to the House upon the points he had alluded to?
Mr. Secretary Stanleysaid, although he was not prepared to go extensively into the different questions which had been put to him by the hon. Member, yet he could not but embrace with great pleasure the opportunity thus afforded him of referring as far as he could satisfactorily and distinctly to each of them. And first of all, he had to thank the hon. Member for having privately communicated to him his intention of putting the questions specifically on the present occasion. As to the success of the Negro Emancipation Bill, and whether it had answered the expectations of his Majesty's Government, his hon. friend was well aware, that the Act had not yet come into operation in any one of the Colonies, and it was, therefore, difficult to give any further answer than that contained in his Majesty's Speech, that so far as they could yet judge, they had every reason to form the most sanguine expectations of its ultimate success. With regard to Antigua, it was undoubtedly true that the Legislature had in progress a measure for doing away with apprenticeship altogether, and thereby to carry into effect emancipation on the 1st of August next. They waited, however, till they should ascertain from his Majesty's Government whether, in the event of such a Bill passing, the British Parliament would object to it as being in fact a variation from the original plan. He had no hesitation in assuring the inhabitants of Antigua, as indeed he had previously communicated by means of a circular letter, anticipating, in the case of some of the colonies, that measures of that nature would be proposed, that as they had the power of generally regulating and abridging its period, they had also the power of doing away with the apprenticeship altogether; but he hoped he had correctly expressed
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the feelings and intentions of Parliament in saving, that it would not be competent for them to substitute for the system of apprenticeship any other and different species of coercion, drawing a distinction between the state of the negroes and that of the rest of the population. They must either embrace the apprenticeship in its main details and principal provisions, or, doing away with it entirely, admit the negroes to a full and equal participation in the rights of their fellow-subjects. What the result might be of this communication of course he knew not. He must add, that he had found it necessary to be precise upon this point, because the proposal of immediate abolition without apprenticeship had been associated with an attempt to introduce the discussion of the four-and-a-half per cent duties, which he had undoubtedly said, could not be taken up by that body, and the annexing of which, as a condition of immediate emancipation, not being sanctioned by Government, would at once defeat their object, and risk the loss of the entire Bill. With regard to Jamaica, he was not at present sure that he could speak with entire confidence, although he had undoubtedly heard reports similar to those referred to by the hon. Gentleman, and that a desire had been expressed to pass a Bill terminating the system at once, without the intervention of apprenticeship. They had, however, passed an Act to which his Majesty's assent had been given, fully carrying the principle, and almost all the details of the original measure, and thoroughly and completely entitling them to compensation, for full and free compliance with the provisions imposed by the Imperial Legislature. With regard to Demerara, he could only say he had a still more gratifying announcement to make to the House. He had received, on the 13th of the present month, two despatches dated the 26th and 27th of January; and although two papers, to which the Governor referred, had by some mistake not accompanied the documents, yet the language made use of sufficiently showed what the scope and tendency of those enclosures were. He stated, in the first place—"I cannot show you in a more gratifying manner the tranquil state of this colony than by submitting to you the Returns for the last month from the three fiscals and the protectors of slaves, the one containing all cases of punishment imposed

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on the slaves by the judicial authorities, the other all cases of complaint throughout the colony, comprising a slave population of 80,000, against their masters." For Demerara itself, by some accident, the report of the fiscal has not been forwarded, but the total punishments awarded in the other two districts in the month of December, (an holyday month, be it recollected, when some little excitement was naturally to be expected), "amount to no more than thirteen—no one of them being of a corporal nature, and varying from one to three weeks' imprisonment."—"The total number of complaints from 80,000 slaves against their masters amounted also to thirteen; while all of them were of the most trivial and insignificant nature." He had also to state, although the returns alluded to could not yet be submitted to the House, that the governor used these expressions, as to the amount of produce and the diligence of the slaves—"I beg also to lay before you, and draw your attention to returns, showing the quantity of colonial produce gathered this season, as compared with preceding years,"—he (Mr. Stanley) regretted much not having the identical documents—"a considerably increased quantity has been made last year, although the season has not been by any means peculiarly favourable. This increased quantity is solely attributable to the increased good-will and diligence of the slaves, and this good-will and diligence of the slaves are the consequences of the milder treatment they now experience, and the cheering prospect they have before them." He had only one other, and not the least gratifying statement to make—that the Court of Policy of Demerara, composed, as to one moiety at least, of colonial planters utterly unconnected by any tie with Government, and not very sparing in the course of the last few years in venting their feelings of anger at some of the Government measures, had unanimously passed an ordinance, without one dissentient voice, abolishing, from the 1st of March, 1834, the power of the masters to inflict corporal punishment to any extent, and for any cause whatever; thus by five months anticipating one of the principal enactments of the British Legislature. They had constituted Courts of petty Sessions, not to be attended by less than four Magistrates, and to be presided over by the fiscal, for the trial of all causes between master
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and slave; and they had added to this the wise provision, that no master should give his voice upon the question of any punishment proposed to be inflicted on a slave belonging to himself. He need not say, he had advised his Majesty with the greatest satisfaction to express his approbation of this wise, humane, and liberal policy adopted by the colony of Demerara which he was bound to say, afforded to Government and the country the best security for the final and complete success of the great experiment itself. He had also had the satisfaction of expressing his Majesty's approbation of a proclamation issued by the Governor, pointing out to the slave population, most justly and properly, that for this anticipation of the benefit conferred on them the slaves were indebted to their masters, the colonists themselves; and it afforded additional satisfaction for him to have the opportunity of making that statement in the House, in order that, together with his Majesty's approbation, he might be able to communicate to the colonists, as he confidently anticipated, the applause and sanction of the house of Commons for the wise and liberal course they had pursued.

MALT-TAX.
Lord Althorpagain moved the Order of the Day. On the question that the Speaker leave the Chair,
Mr. Cobbettrose to offer to the House, with very great submission to its better judgment, a Motion, in the following words—"That from and after the 5th October next, all Duties on Malt shall cease and determine." To make such a proposition without reasons given, would be very presumptuous in any man, but to state all the reasons would require more time than he was in the habit of consuming in that House, and much more time than he should like to consume on the present occasion. He would, therefore, bring his observations into as small a compass as possible. Before he proceeded to state the divers grounds for repealing this tax, it was necessary for him to state something as to the number of the nation which would be affected by the Repeal of the Malt-tax. It had been represented, that the agricultural part of the community was comparatively very small—that it was quite insignificant as contrasted with the manufacturing population. The hon. member for Middlesex had recently said, that this was a nation of manufacturers,

285
and the right hon. member for Manchester (Mr. Poulett Thomson) had stated, that this country was to be the manufactory of the whole world. Thus it would seem, that the agriculturists were a mere trifle in comparison with the rest of the inhabitants of the kingdom. The noble Lord, the member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Lord Morpeth), had termed those who petitioned for a Repeal of the Cornlaws, the main body of the people. Never had a more gross error been committed—never had a delusion been more widely disseminated. The manufacturers were represented as everything, the agriculturists as nothing. He would show, presently, that the Repeal of the Malt-tax was as important to the towns as to the country; but first he would advert, with more particularity, to the comparative numbers of the agriculturists and manufacturers. The right hon. member for Manchester had said, that the families employed in agriculture were 900,000, and the families employed in trade 1,400,000; but this was a gross, though not a wilful error. It arose out of the mode in which the population returns had been prepared. Every parish was stated to carry on some manufacture or other, yet it was indisputable that there were many parishes where not a soul was so engaged, and in a parish of Hampshire with which he was acquainted, the parson and the doctor were the only persons not employed in agriculture. Yet even they were agriculturists, or depended upon agriculture; for the parson had his tithes, and the doctor was paid by those whose limbs he set to enable them to follow the plough. The fallacy of the returns had misled the country, and the land was looked upon as an insignificant part of the country. The member for Middlesex had said, that England was not only a manufacturing, but a poor country. Let him look into his store-house of knowledge, and show when England had not been a rich country. It was time that such a delusion was dissipated, and one particular parish might be taken as a most apt illustration. The hon. member for Guildford was the owner of a whole parish, or extra-parochial district, and the population return stated, that there were in it twenty-two families engaged in agriculture, and one in manufactures. That hon. Member little suspected, that in Wanborough, he had a manufactory exporting to foreign countries. And what
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was that manufactory? A manufactory of plough-shares and harrows, and shoes for horses. In fact, the only family not engaged in agriculture was the village smith; and was it not a palpable error to regard that family as not dependent on agriculture? A similar error pervaded all the returns. In every village, there were several tradesmen who were wholly supported by agriculture, who, in the population returns, were set down as engaged in trade. But letting that pass, what was the summary, even according to the gross misrepresentation of the population returns? That there were 1,075,000 male souls of above the age of twenty, chiefly employed in agriculture; and only 320,000 males of above the age of twenty, chiefly employed in manufactures. Upon this showing, it was nearly four to one in point of numbers in favour of agriculture. The question before the House was therefore worthy of its attention, if only on account of the great majority of persons employed upon the land; but those who resided in towns were interested in the Repeal of the Malt-duty, as much as those who only lived in the country. People in towns drank beer, and in a much larger proportion. He allowed, that the Malt-tax did not affect them in the same manner—but as a mere burthen, as a mere weight, it affected people in towns as much as people in the country. People in towns were much more closely connected with agriculture than was generally supposed. The hon. member for Marylebone wished for the Repeal of the Window-tax, in order to relieve his own constituents. Did the hon. member for Marylebone suppose, that the Repeal of the Malt-tax would not have the effect of relieving his constituents? Why, there were resident in London a thousand families, aye, he might say two or three thousand families, who were constantly occupied in making agricultural implements, in making ploughs, in making harrows, in making drills, in making churns, in making presses, in making tubs. Were these not the constituents of the hon. member for Marylebone? Destroy the agricultural interest, and what would become of those families? Why, they would all starve. What were the salesmen of cattle? What were the salesmen of seeds? Were they not inhabitants of towns? What was all Mark-lane? Were not all these persons deeply interested in the prosperity of agri-

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culture? What folly it was, then, to say, that the people in the towns had nothing to do with the land. The fact was, that the interests of the one party were closely connected with the interests of the other; but if there was one more essential than the other, it was the interest of the land. If the full amount of the Malt-tax were paid into the Exchequer, and if there were no extraordinary expense in the collection of the tax, and no waste of the property of the people occasioned by it in other ways, why, then, if Government wanted the money, it certainly would be wrong to deprive the Government of it. But if he could show, and he was quite prepared to do so, that besides the enormous expense of collection, the tax was in many other respects burthensome and injurious to the people, he thought he should have a right to call upon the House to repeal it. The Stamp-tax, which produced four millions annually, cost only 168,000 l. in the collection. But of the whole of the expenses which attended the collection of the Excise, five-sixths were to be ascribed to the collection of the Malt-duty. In fact, the country was paying above a million for collecting about four millions and a-half. But the expense of collection was not all. There was the great evil which attended the monopoly occasioned by the Malt-tax. The House-tax, the Window-tax, and other taxes of that description caused no monopoly. But the Malt-tax led to a most extensive and injurious monopoly. Four millions of quarters of malt, at a duty of 1l. 8s. per quarter, would cost the people only 5,600,000 l.; whereas the same quantity, with the cost of collecting the tax, and with the burthens cast upon it in other ways, actually did cost the people 14,400,000 l. So that this tax took from the people, took from the landed proprietor, took from the farmer, took from all the consumers of beer, nearly ten millions more than they would have to pay, if there were no Malt-tax. It was not merely the burthen of the tax. He was quite aware, that it was of little consequence what was the nature of a tax, provided it was general and equal in its provision. This was a tax partial in its character; it was a tax on those who brewed beer, and on those who drank beer. But it would be said, that somebody must get the ten millions. His answer was, that the Exchequer did not get it. If it got
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into the Exchequer, he should not complain; but the Exchequer received only four millions and a half, for what cost the people fourteen millions and a-half. The great maltsters, the great brewers, were the people that got the money. Their capital gave them a monopoly, which they used, not for good purposes, but to beggar the land and all belonging to it. They took this enormous suns from the working classes, and put it into their own pockets. The hon. member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Clay) told them the other day, that malt at Mark-lane was 52 s. the quarter. A private dealer could not sell upon such terms. It was only the great monopolists who could afford to sell cheap. While it could be sold at Mark-lane for 52 s. the quarter, it cost the small retail dealers 8s. and 9s. the bushel; the great brewers paid only 6s. 3d. the bushel, while the small brewer, 8s. 6d. or 9s. The great maltsters had another considerable advantage. By getting sufficient bondsmen, they were allowed to remain three collections of the duty in arrear, while the small dealer was under the necessity of paying up. The consequence was, that malting had become a complete monopoly in the hands of a few persons. He would appeal to those acquainted with the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk, whether there was more now than one maltster in places where there used to be ten or fifteen. Thus the monopoly was in the hands of a few, to the great injury of the farmer, who was obliged to take whatever they pleased to offer him for his barley. When this question was before the House, upon a former night, the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) said, he questioned whether, if the tax was repealed, the poor would brew their own beer, having been so long out of the habit of doing so. Habit had nothing to do with it. Men changed their morals, their dress, and their manners from habit; but their appetites remained the same; they must eat and drink. Habit could not alter this. One of the witnesses examined before the Committee on the beer-shops concurred so far with the noble Lord as to say, he thought it impossible, even if the law were repealed, that the labourers could brew their own beer; "for," said he, "there are few cottagers who have a house so large as this room (meaning the Committee-room), and they have not coppers or other conveniences, having been so long out of the

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habit of brewing." This was as much as saving, that labourers lost the habit of liking beer. He might just as well say, that they lost the habit of liking their dinner, and would not cook their bacon. How many would brew a gallon of malt at a time, as they used formerly, if it were not for this tax? It was the wife or daughter who brewed, and not the labourer himself. But then it had been said, that beer could not be brewed in a small quantity. A single gallon of malt would give twelve gallons of good beer; and he had known many persons who had been satisfied with brewing a single gallon of malt at a time. Nor did the operation require any large room or any extensive apparatus. In fact, brewing beer was precisely like making tea. Beer could be brewed with as much ease as tea could be made; and as to utensils, a porridge pot, holding five gallons, formed an excellent boiler, aad a washing tub answered admirably for a mash-tub and a cooler. With such means much better beer could be produced than any with which the public brewer now furnished his customers. The price of time malt was, in fact, the only obstacle to brewing. Mr. Simeon, a Magistrate of Oxfordshire, in his evidence before the Committee, said he caused inquiry to be made by the overseers in fifteen different parishes as to what would be the most effectual means of putting an end to the evils of beer-shops, and the conclusion to which they came with respect to fourteen of these parishes was, that the repeal of time Malt-tax was the only effectual remedy. One witness said, he feared if the tax was repealed, it would be an inducement to the labourers to steal barley. Out of fifty-nine witnesses examined, thirty-three of them said, they knew no more effectual remedy for the evils caused by beer-shops than the repeal of the Malt-tax. Mr. Goodluck, a Magistrate of Berkshire, said, the poor were prevented by this tax from brewing their own beer; and another witness was of opinion, that if the duty were taken off beer, it would diminish tine tendency to drinking spirits. How much more must it tend to diminish the use of spirits if the duty were taken off malt! One of the witnesses said, he was in the habit of laying out a large sum of money to supply his labourers with beer, finding they would not work without it, but would go to the beer-shop and neglect their work. It might be said, why not give the labourers
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money in the place of beer? It would not be the same thing at all. Farmers could do more with one pound's worth of beer than two pounds paid in money, for they could give the beer at a proper time and place. Men were often employed to mow by the acre. Sometimes a labourer said, "Master Hugh, give us some beer." "No," says he, "but I will give you sixpence." Well, off went the labourer with the sixpence to the beer-shop, and, very probably, did not leave it till he spent more than sixpence, besides neglecting his work. It would be very different if he had the beer in the field. He would go to the hedge where his bottle of beer was, take a drink, and then return to his mowing. The labourer's wife would take care that a part of this money should be saved, and laid up, in order to purchase malt to brew his own beer. This would tend, in a great measure, and the wife would also use her influence, to keep the husband at home at nights, and break him of his habit of frequenting beer-shops and public-houses. This was not all the repeal of the Malt-tax would effect. Its repeal would have also a great effect in restraining young people to dwell with their parents, the not doing of which had so much demoralized and changed the habits of the labouring people. Immorality had increased among that class, because they were not induced to remain in their own houses, but tempted to go out by night and frequent the beer-shops. That was the mischief; and who was there that could imagine ten or twelve young people meeting together by night—he did not say at beer-shops exclusively, but anywhere else—without getting into mischief of some sort or other? In the former state of things the masters and mistresses of farm-houses prevented young people from going abroad of nights. All this had now fallen to the ground, and masters and mistresses had no longer the power to govern the young people they employed. Perhaps it would be difficult to bring back matters to the state in which they stood formerly: farms were larger now than they used to be, and farmers had become gentlemen. But at any rate Parliament ought to do something; it ought to interfere indirectly to try to bring back things to their former state. The great difficulty to come back to this state, the great objection to take servants into farmhouses, arose in a great part from the Malt-tax, since, as long as this tax stood,

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it would be difficult for farmers to provide beer for their servants, who drank a great deal of it at all times, and particularly in hot weather. Besides, it would be impossible to keep the beer locked up from them; they would get at it some way or other; and this was another objection on the part of upstart farmers to brew their own beer, and to keep house-servants. He did not pretend to say, that the repeal of this tax would remove all the evils under which the country laboured; but still it would be a great benefit to the country generally, and particularly to the agricultural portion of it. It would, at any rate, have one good effect; it would reconcile the people to many things they now bore with very great reluctance. In his opinion the repeal of the Malt-tax would be the greatest benefit to the kingdom that the Government could confer; it would go a great way in reconciling the people to the Government, and it would make them say, that the Reformed Parliament had done good, that they had not been deceived by it, and that its effects would be for the good of the country. If there was any one thing that would make the present Government safer, and fix them firmer in their places, than they were at present, it was the repeal of this odious and obnoxious tax. Another effect of the repeal of this tax would be to increase the peace, comfort, and good morals, of the people. For all these reasons he had taken the liberty of making the present Motion in the broad and comprehensive shape that he proposed, though he confessed, that he put it to the House without having any confidence or hope that it would be adopted. In going into Committee, he thought it best to move for a total repeal of this tax, as he considered, that a partial repeal, even though it should go so far as to take half the duty off, would be of no substantial benefit. All the expenses of collecting the duty would remain, and the maltsters would not reduce their price, so that little or no good would accrue to the consumer. Whenever any indirect Motion of this sort was brought forward, which would only tend to cheat the people and the House, he would oppose it. He would put the question fairly and fully before the House, in order that all those, the farmers of course included, who were now crying aloud against this measure, might know that nothing was to be taken off their burthens, that nothing was to be done for
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their relief, and that they were to remain in their present state. Besides, these classes would be fully satisfied, by his Motion, that he was determined to do his duty by them, when they saw him bringing this question in a straightforward manner under the notice of the House. The hon. Member concluded by moving his Resolution.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the question which the hon. member for Oldham now brought forward, had been decided so short a time since, that it could be hardly expected, that the House could adopt such a change of opinion as would be implied if it agreed to the Motion of the hon. Member. The hon. Member had argued, in the first place, that there ought to be no Malt-tax; and one of his arguments was, that it would be better if farmers and their labourers drank their beer in their own houses. There was no doubt of the truth of this, and the House, on this argument, would agree with the hon. Member. Most people would, no doubt, be the better, if the taxes were removed which pressed upon them. But the question the House had to determine was, whether, in the present state of the finances of the country, it was possible to reduce between 4,000,000 l. and 5,000,000 l. of taxes without finding some proper substitute for so large a deficiency. The hon. member for Oldham had said, on a late occasion, when they were voting the Army Estimates, that after they were carried he could not call on Government for a reduction of taxation. Now, not only the Army but the Navy Estimates had been voted; and if it were the opinion of that House that such establishments were necessary, and he supposed every person thought they were; he considered it utterly impossible to continue them, and provide for them, if the hon. Member's present Motion should be assented to. He completely agreed with the hon. Member, that a partial repeal of the Malt-tax would not be beneficial, and that no good could be expected save from its total repeal. But it must be clear to the hon. Member,—and it was admitted by the whole House,—that the actual state of the finances of the country would not admit of a total repeal of the Malt-tax. The hon. Member contended that the repeal of this tax would be beneficial to the inhabitants of towns as well as to persons residing in the country. He believed, that

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it would affect both classes nearly in the same way, since he considered that even the agriculturists would gain only as consumers by the repeal of this tax. But the main question, he repeated, was, whether the present state of the finances would allow the reduction of any such amount of taxation as was now proposed without a substitute? In the former debate upon this question substitutes were proposed, but they were impracticable. On the present occasion the hon. Member had not even hinted at a substitute for the amount of taxation which he wished to have repealed. The fact, therefore, was, that if the House consented to the present Resolution, it would consent to nothing more nor less than a total derangement of every financial measure of the Government, and in such a case, of course, it would be impossible to carry on the administration of the affairs of the country. He did not mean to follow the hon. Member through all his arguments. On the chief question, whether a tax on malt was good, he would say decidedly it was not, because, in his opinion, reasoning in the abstract, no tax on any commodity generally consumed could be in itself good. He was aware that this tax pressed on the farmers, but, as he said before, it only pressed on them as consumers. He believed, that brewing beer in their own houses would be an advantage to them. However, he was not of opinion, that the repeal of this tax would make the agricultural labourer brew his own beer. He said this, not because he thought the labourer's habits could not be changed, but because he firmly believed, that no change in the law could enable the labourer to brew his own beer at a cheaper rate than he could purchase it at. The hon. Member might shake his head in token of dissent, but such was his (Lord Althorp's) opinion. These were his views of the question, and he was afraid, that no alteration they could now make in this law would bring back among the farmers and labourers that state of society the hon. Member had so frequently alluded to. He used the word afraid, not that he considered that state of society so very desirable, but because he considered that the time was gone by for that state. If, at any time, there had been a chance, the difficulty, present, was far greater than ever it was. He would oppose the Motion, and he could not help expressing
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his sorrow at seeing the hon. Member coming forward with his Motion so soon after the question had been discussed and decided.
Mr. Curteissaid, it was unnecessary for him to dilate on a question that had been so recently discussed. If he could move an Amendment, he would propose, that from and after the 5th of April, 1835, half of the present duties on malt should be repealed. He could not, however, move an Amendment. He had been for many years an advocate for the repeal of these duties; but he thought the time was now come when they ought to take what they could obtain. The hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Warburton) had on a former occasion accused the agriculturists of wishing to put their hands into the pockets of the manufacturers; butt this was not surely the case, since the landed proprietors had been as forward as any in recommending the repeal of the tax on beer. The noble Lord said, no substitute had been proposed for this tax. He did not mean to go the length of the hon. Baronet (Sir William Ingilby), and tax persons going to gambling-houses, but he thought that a 1,000,000 l. might be raised by a tax upon lotteries. It was useless to say that lotteries were put a stop to; they were still continued; and a tax upon such gambling transactions would be better than a tax upon private gambling. He considered, that the duty on gin might be raised without any detriment to the revenue. He had another idea which was not exactly his own, but that of Mr. Miller, a solicitor, of London, by which a substitute for the Malt-tax might be obtained; he meant an equalization of the Land-tax. By such a measure, between 3,000,000 l. and 4,000,000 l. a-year might be raised. He threw out this only as a suggestion for the consideration of the noble Lord, not, perhaps, that it ought to be recommended, but it certainly might be a substitute for the tax proposed to be repealed. As he could not move his Amendment, he hoped the hon. member for Oldham would withdraw his Motion; but if the hon. Member chose to divide the House on the question, and though the result of that division should be that they world be left in a minority of six, still for the sake of consistency, he would support the hon. Member's Motion.
Sir William Ingilbythought, they ought to bring the question once more to an

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issue. It might be very well for hon. Members to do as they did the other night—turn his address upon the subject into ridicule. They now had the question placed before them in a very different manner; they had now heard it discussed by one of the ablest men in the King's dominions; than whom no man was better qualified to discuss all such matters, particularly the question before them. He, of course, meant the hon. member for Oldham. They now saw the question in a double light; they had seen it the other evening in a burlesque light; but now they saw it in a very different point of view. So much the better for their judgment. The noble Lord opposite had called upon him last year for a substitute for this tax. The consequence of this call was, that he had been driven into a corner and forced to produce his memorable budget. On all sides had he been called upon for a measure to supply the deficiency to the revenue that would be caused by the repeal of the Malt-tax. He had mentioned several very good substitutes. He really believed, that a tax upon gin, which was now overflowing the country, would supply the deficiency. Though it might be very well for hon. Members to turn his budget into ridicule, he really could not see anything so preposterous in it. He sincerely hoped that this tax, which fell so heavily on the people, would be done away with. He had been laughed at and accused of buffoonery; but he thought that the hon. Members who on that side of the House voted for the Motion of the Marquess of Chandos and against his, though both Motions were equally for the benefit of the agriculturist, were guilty of greater buffoonery than he. What! was it not buffoonery to vote one way one night, and another way another night? A Motion brought forward by a noble Marquess was treated with respect, whilst hon. Members thought they might be inconsistent and shift their votes on a Motion that was put forward by a Radical. For his own part he hoped the day would come when Members of that House would vote without reference to any party for Motions according to their real good, and not with reference to the mover of them being a Marquess or a Radical. He would vote for the present Motion, as he would for every one that went to relieve his Majesty's subjects from the burthen of taxation. He had not the other night produced his
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budget of his own accord; and if he had assumed the office and played the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he begged the House to reflect that he did so by particular desire. He did not intend to take office any more. He had assumed it once. He had discharged the duties of it in a rational way, and he was glad to see the hon. Member who had last spoken approving of part of his budget, by advocating a tax upon gin. The tax upon malt was a bad one; it tended to brutalize the country; it was the cause of making the country overflow with gin; and he therefore hoped that the hon. member for Oldham would divide the House on the present question, in order that it might be seen who were the real friends of the agriculturists.
Mr. Childerssaid, that as he represented a large agricultural county, he was not willing to give a silent vote on the present subject. He did not believe, that a repeal of the Malt-tax would do anything like the good that some persons said it would, and that it would not increase the consumption of barley. The hon. Member read a numerical statement in order to prove, that in certain years when the duty on malt was reduced, its consumption had not increased, but, on the contrary, that in some instances it had been diminished by a third. The poor would not be relieved to anything like the extent supposed, because they would not brew their own beer. He was satisfied that there was as little chance of the poorer classes in the agricultural districts returning to the practice of brewing their own beer, as there was of their knitting their own stockings. The hon. Member quoted from the evidence of Mr. Thurnall given before the Committee on the Beer Bill, to show that it was not practicable for the labourers to brew their own beer. It was proved, that a beer-shopkeeper could never enter into competition with the great beer brewer. Hence he inferred, that as the private brewer brewed for his own use a much less quantity of beer than the beer-shopkeeper, it would never be worth the private or home-brewer's while to brew at all. The question having already been disposed of by so large a majority, in favour of maintaining the tax, he could see no just reason that had been brought forward why the Legislature should be called on again to interfere, and should, therefore, vote against the Motion.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusson, though one of the agricultural class, and a friend to its interests and prosperity, would, nevertheless, vote against the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham. Hon. Members talked of being consistent in their votes, but he, for one, preferred to vote in consistency with his judgment; and, therefore, could not consent to repeal the Malt-tax till the means were devised of making good the deficiency to the revenue. He doubted not the hon. member for Oldham could find immediate means to dispense with that tax in a reduction of the interest of the National Debt. [Mr. Thomas Attwood: And why not?] Why not? simply that it would shake the national confidence. There were only two means of providing a substitute—the one already referred to, and the other having recourse to a Property-tax. He, for one, would most strenuously oppose any such tax—one which was of the most odious and inquisitorial character; and being of this opinion, he would not support the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham, though he could not but admire the talent with which he had introduced the subject to the House.
Mr. Sinclairsaid, that as the hon. member for Oldham had intimated his determination to press this Motion to a division, he intended, as a volunteer, to go out in the forlorn hope, in order to show how anxious he was to relieve the landowners and farmers of this country from their distressing, if not desperate, condition. Two more years of the present low prices and heavy burthens would, in his opinion, complete the ruin of the agricultural interest, and consequently entail incalculable mischief upon the community. He had listened with great pleasure to the very able and lucid speech of the hon. Mover, who, in the graphic delineations of rural habits, and in just appreciations of the feeling of the working classes, exceeded all his contemporaries. He (Mr. Sinclair) rejoiced to find that hon. Gentleman assigning a due place to the landed proprietors and tenantry in the scale of relative importance. By many other persons they had been greatly undervalued, and their sufferings treated with indifference; but the sound reasoning of the hon. member for Oldham, and the facts by which his own experience and intimate acquaintance with the peasantry enabled him to illustrate all his assertions, were entitled to, and would meet with, far greater atten-
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tion throughout the country, than all the more recondite speculations of our political metaphysicians. He was the more at liberty to support this Motion, because he was quite prepared to vote for a Property or Income-tax, as the only impost which would reach the fundholder, the mortgagee, and those who squandered their British incomes in foreign capitals, none of whom contributed in anything like a due proportion to the public exigences of the State, or the local burthens of the country.
Mr. Mark Philipssaid, he voted last year in favour of the Motion of the hon. member for Lincolnshire, for the partial repeal of the Malt-tax, and he did so in perfect consistency with the vote he had previously given in favour of the Motion of the hon. member for Worcester, calling upon the House to appoint a Select Committee to take into consideration the propriety of establishing a Property-tax. He maintained, therefore, the integrity of the vote he had given in favour of the establishment of a Property-tax, feeling, at the same time, the importance of the relief which the removal of the Malt-tax would afford, both to the consumer and the agriculturist; but when he came to analyse the division which took place on the Motion for the repeal of the Malt-tax, he found that, out of sixty-six county Members who supported that Motion, there were only twenty-four of the same Members who were prepared to give the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, an equivalent in return, by supporting the Motion of the hon. member for Worcester. Under these circumstances, he felt it impossible, as the Representative of a great mercantile community, distinguished as that community always had been by the honour of its transactions between man and man, and the maintenance of private credit, and anxious as they were, and always would be, equally with himself, to maintain the public faith, he could not feel justified in supporting the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham. He was anxious to see the tax in question repealed, but he had not confidence in the feelings of the House, after the example of last Session, and was afraid, should he vote to give up the Malt-duty, that few of the Members would be in favour of a Property-tax, or a substantial equivalent for the remission of so large a mass of taxation. He deplored the present state of agricultural distress; but he thought

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that those who were so strenuously opposed to the alteration in the Corn-laws, whilst they spoke of manufacturing prosperity, might read in that prosperity, which was, perhaps, only the revival from a long period of stagnation, the evidence that with the necessaries of life at a low price, as one of the causes of that prosperity, a permanent reduction in those prices was well calculated to maintain a permanent, instead of a temporary, prosperity. With an earnest desire, therefore, for the permanent welfare of both the agricultural and manufacturing interests, which were inseparably united, the home trade being that on which manufacturers set the most value—with a desire to see a cheap loaf on the table of every working man, which he considered the great necessary of life—and anxious, further, that after a supply of good and cheap bread, there should be a supply of equally good and cheap beer placed within the reach of the humblest classes; he was favourable to the remission of the tax, although restrained from voting for it by the considerations he had named. The repeal of every duty on raw materials, he begged to assure the landed interest, on which the industry of the country relied for employment in its conversion into manufactured articles, was an object for their first consideration, as it was impossible to improve the condition of the manufacturer without rendering him a better customer for the produce of their estates.
Mr. John Maxwelldid not rise to advocate the interests of the landowners and farmers, but, as the friend of the poor. He had, in common with many others, much regretted to find the noble Lord was rather disposed to extend relief from taxation to the fundholder, the stockjobber, and men who had large houses in and near the metropolis, through the medium of his House-tax, than to the agriculturists, who had proved their allegation of distress and discouragement before a Committee of that House. He should act on this occasion as he had on other similar occasions when voting with the hon. member for Middlesex, he had formed one of a very small minority. He had then voted conscientiously, and he had the happiness to find since, that that small minority had influenced the House so far that the majority had embraced the same opinion, and redeemed itself in public opinion. Things would not retrograde in the present
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temper of society, and satisfied he was, that, however small the minority might be who voted for the Motion, the noble Lord would find the day was not far distant when their opinion would become the opinion of time House.
Mr. Thomas Attwoodwas not prone to feel despondingly as to time number of the minority with which he should vote. He had reasons to believe it would not be so contemptible in number, and certainly not as respected the influence or weight of character of the hon. Members who would be found in the same ranks with himself, supporting the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham. He was not for breaking faith with any class of his fellow-subjects. No man looked with more heartfelt hatred on all and any attempts made to break faith with the public. He could have wished the hon. member for Kirkcudbright would have embraced within the sphere of his anxiety to prevent breaches of public faith the embarrassed landowner, the ruined farmer, the beggared labourer on his farm. It was absurd to hear a party in that House talk of their anxiety to keep the public faith. It was but a bastard faith they kept to a certain mass of metal, whilst they broke faith to the living masses of men, their families, and their hopes. He would fearlessly ask the right hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) whether he did not himself know, that the farmer, the landowner, and he might almost have added, many classes of mere agricultural labourers, had lost three-fourths of their income or wages of their labour by the great alterations or the gradual reduction of remunerating prices for their property or for their labour upon the land? The House had borne a very culpable part in one of the greatest and most crying cruelties and fraud that this or any other country had ever witnessed; and it was high time it should make some reparation to those classes for their delusion, to call it by no harsher name. He only wished that a little of the same unpalatable medicine which the agricultural classes had been drenched with should be in fairness given to the rest. He had hoped the noble Lord who had a heart beating in his bosom, and a sound head he believed, too, would before this have found out, that the time was come when these things must be altered. He wished to put the landlord, the farmer, and the labourer

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upon war-rents, war-prices, and war-wages, making all content if possible. Whilst they went on in their present system of delusion, this could never be. Nobody now was content but the fund-holder, and those on the Pension-list. He would just explain how these duties on malt operated on the consumer, which, in the whole, were said to produce only five millions sterling; and yet he would assert, without fear of contradiction, that they cost the public not less than twice that sum, or 10,000,000 l. sterling, including the cost of its collection. For every bushel of malt he used he paid 8s. 6d. How was this made up? First, by 3s. 6d. for the raw Material; 2s. 7½d. for the duty; then a bushel ought to be had tax and all, for 6s. 1½d. But, no; there was another tax to be levied on him, which was that tax resulting from monopoly. Monopoly demanded 2s. 4½d. more. And so it would ever be; and thus the poor man must pay 300 per cent upon the real value of the article he used as a necessary for the purpose of supporting a false and a fallacious system of finance. If the duties were taken off a gigantic burthen would be thrown off the shoulders of our poor; 5s. would, at the utmost, be the price of a bushel of malt. The people would obtain 3s. 6d. a bushel relief, out of which, perhaps, the farmer would get 1s. 6d. towards paying that excessive high rent, which the noble Lord, by his hocus-pocus had now turned into a solid gold rent. Let him not tread thus down the farmer, the labourer, and all connected with this class. Could he have thus treated the other classes, and given, for instance, the soldier only 3d. a day? Let his policy, as a finance Minister, be broad and comprehensive. The discontented labourers might go on burning all the ricks in the country, and nothing would ever stop them whilst they managed the finance thus. Give the labourers wages equal to their wants, which had been falling for years from the war prices. "But (said the noble Lord) if I give up these five millions, how can I go on?" No one expected, at least he did not, that the noble Lord should go on. But how was it possible the landed interest should go on which was thus, district by district, swept off by the besom of bankruptcy and destruction? For his part he could not wonder if, when the noble Lord got into
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the same bed with his victims, he would be restless on his pillow, for the noble Lord could not be insensible to the misery which the present system of taxation produced to millions of people throughout the country. He should feel it to be his duty to give his support to the Motion of his hon. friend the member for Oldham.
Mr. Secretary Stanleydid not rise to enter into the discussion, but to entreat the House to show something like respect for their own proceedings. He trusted, that they would put an end to this most useless discussion, in which every topic was touched upon but that which really bore upon the question which they were called upon to consider, the expediency of repealing the Malt-tax. He would not follow the hon. member for Birmingham through the lamentations which he had expressed with respect to the restlessness of his (Mr. Stanley's) noble friend's pillow, and his sleeping in the bed with his victims; nor would he trouble the House with any observations upon war-rents, paper currency, and the other results of war which the hon. Member was so fond of dilating upon. He would, however, call the attention of the House to the position in which they stood with regard to this very question. They should bear in mind, that it was fully discussed no longer than a fortnight ago, and that they then determined, by the vote to which they came, that it would be utterly impossible for the Government to go on if it were deprived of so large a portion of revenue as that which the Malt-tax produced. But what was it that they were now called upon to do? Why, to reverse their former decision, and declare, that the repeal of the Malt-tax would be expedient, although it was not proposed that any other tax should be substituted in its stead. The question, he repeated, had already been settled; and if they were now to take the step they were called upon to take, the effect would be to derange the whole of the agricultural, manufacturing, and commercial interests of the country. The hon. Member would allow the Government to "make bricks," although he would deprive them of the straw necessary for the purpose. But, he would ask, whether the House of Commons would deal so unjustly with his Majesty's Ministers as to require them to carry on the business of the Government, and yet deny them the means of doing so? Without a re-

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venue the Government could not be carried on, and, therefore, instead of going into the consideration of the repeal of the Malt-tax, the only question they had to consider was, whether they should not proceed to the Order of the Day for considering the Ordnance Estimates? Hon. Members must be sensible that to vote in favour of the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham could lead to no practical result. [An Hon. Member: It might lead to the imposition of a Property-tax.] It was all very well to talk of a Property-tax, but was it any more than reasonable, on the part of the Government, to say, "Carry your Property-tax first, and then take off the Malt-tax if you please?" Now, what was it that the Government were called upon to do? In one breath they were told they ought to take away a tax which produced a revenue of 5,000,000 l., while, in the other, the necessity of keeping up an efficient establishment was pressed upon their attention. Without a revenue equal to the present, the business of the State could not be carried on; and, therefore, he entreated them as men of business, to dismiss a discussion, in every point of view, so useless, and go at once to that which really formed the proper business of the day.
Mr. Robinson, adverting to what took place relative to the Malt-tax, last Session, must say, that it was his opinion, that if hon. Gentlemen could see their way clearly, they would require little inducement to vote for the entire abolition of the Malt-tax. No matter how this tax was considered, it was alike onerous and injurious; but still he was not prepared to call upon the Government to sacrifice so large an amount of the revenue without furnishing an adequate substitute for it. It was, no doubt, the desire of the House to relieve the country of this particular burthen, if it could be done with safety to the public service. He thought it could be done, without the least risk, knowing, as he did, that all the difficulties under which the country laboured arose from the injudicious alterations which had been made from time to time in the currency. He was clearly of opinion, that there was one, and one only, remedy by which the country could be extricated from its present difficulties; but, then, that was a remedy the House was indisposed to adopt. The remedy to which he referred, it was his intention, on a future day, to submit
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to the consideration of the House. His proposition would affect all classes of the community in an equal degree, without giving one description of property an advantage over another. It would apply as well to the fundholder as to the possessors of property of any other kind. The wealth of the country should be made to bear those burthens which it ought to sustain; and until that course was taken, it would be impossible for any Government to comply with the wishes of the people, or to repeal those taxes which were obviously unjust, and productive of much mischief. The substitution of a Property-tax for the present system of taxation was the only means by which substantial relief could be afforded to the country, and that was the proposition which he meant to bring forward.
Mr. Cumming Brucehad no wish to prolong the Debate, but was anxious merely to state to the House a few facts, which would show, that the agricultural interests of that part of the kingdom with which he was connected were now under great depression from the operation of the present system of taxation. In the first place, however, he must call the attention of the House to the comparison of the average prices of wheat now and at former periods; and he had taken the average price at present obtained in counties in the southern districts, as well as in the northern counties of Scotland. From the years 1829 to 1833, the lowest average was 51 s. 3d. per quarter; and from 1797 to 1801, the average price was 47 s. 1d. At present the average prices fixed in February last, in the county of Stirling, where there existed all the advantages of a ready market, and of a great manufacturing population, the average prices of agricultural produce were as follow:—Wheat, 46 s. 5d.; barley, 25 s. 4d.; and oats, 16 s. 8d. At the same period, in a northern county—the county of Moray—the average prices were, wheat, 43 s. 5d.; barley, 25 s.; and oats, 15 s. 10 d.; and in the county of Banff, wheat, 37 s.; barley, 23 s.; and oats, 15 s. per quarter. Now, he must remind the House, that it had been stated before the Agricultural Committee of last year by one witness, Mr. Low, that unless the farmer in Scotland could realise in the market 58 s. per quarter for his wheat, 32 s. for his barley, and 24 s. for his oats, he would be unable to meet his engagements without sacrificing

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all the profits which ought to appertain to him, for his skill, industry, and capital. The Committee which had been acquiesced in last year by the noble Lord opposite, had, by their Report, shown the state of the existing distress amongst the agricultural interests, and had pointed out some measures of relief; yet a modification of the Poor-laws, and other remedies suggested, would not afford any relief to the agriculturist north of the Tweed, neither would any alteration of the Tithe-law affect the distress then consequent upon the low prices obtained for agricultural produce. In Scotland, all collision between the occupying tenants and the clergy had been avoided, but, though no outcry had been raised, the former had to contribute to the Church, though in a different shape, all that was paid by tenants occupying lands in England. The Scotch agriculturists had used great efforts, and with success, to improve the lands, but their condition was now daily becoming more distressing, and they were more and more unable to maintain a respectable and useful position in society, and the lands were passing into the hands of attorneys, money-lenders, and legal craftsmen—a change than which none more injurious could be conceived. He was not prepared, however, to break the national faith, and sacrifice the provision for the exigences of the State, and, therefore, he could not vote for the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham, but he would take the liberty of suggesting to the noble Lord opposite (Althorp) a means by which a partial relief could be afforded, without, to any considerable degree, affecting the revenue. The suggestion was contained in a memorial signed by the malt-distillers of the Inverness collection, and those memorialists recommended as a very essential amendment, the repeal of the Malt-duty, and the substitution of a Spirit-duty, which they were willing to increase to 3s. 11½d. or to even 4s. per gallon. Now, as the modification of the Poor-laws, or the proposed alteration in the tithe system, could not affect the agricultural distress in Scotland or Ireland, his proposition was, that the noble Lord opposite should separate the question of the Malt-duties with reference to those two countries, from the question as affecting England. It appeared that during the last year, the duty on malt paid in Scotland was 523,539 l, 1s, 6d.; and, in Ireland, the
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amount paid was 246,347 l. 4s. 9d.; making a total amount of duty paid in those countries, upon 707,975 quarters, of 769,886 l. Now the malt-distillers suggested the substitution of an increased duty on spirits of 6d. He would accede to an increase of 8d. per gallon. The total number of gallons distilled in Scotland in the course of last year, was 7,979,000, and in Ireland, upwards of 9,200,000; thus making together a total of 17,259,958 gallons. Upon this, the increase of duty would realize to the revenue upwards of 600,000 l., and, therefore, all that the noble Lord would, by the adoption of the proposition, be called upon to give up to the distressed agriculturists of Ireland and Scotland, would be, about 169,000 l. By this arrangement the resources of the noble Lord would not be much trenched upon, while a great boon would be extended to both countries. He should not vote for the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham, but he had felt it his duty to call the attention of the House and the Government to these facts, with a view to redress the grievances and burthens by which the agriculturists of Scotland were oppressed and borne down.
The House divided on Mr. Cobbett's Motion—Ayes 59; Noes 142: Majority 83.

List of the AYES.

ENGLAND.

Parrott, J.

Adams, E. H.

Pigot, N.

Aglionby, H. A.

Plumptre, J. P.

Astley, Sir J.

Rickford, W.

Attwood, T.

Robinson, G. R.

Barnard, J. G.

Shawe, R. N.

Bell, M.

Simeon, Sir R.

Bowes, J.

Trelawney, W. L. S.

Buckingham, J. S.

Trevor, Hon. R.

Burton, H.

Tyrell, Sir J.

Chandos, Marquess of

Tyrell, C.

Chaplin, Colonel

Vincent, Sir F.

Clayton, Colonel W. R.

Walter, J.

Crawley, S.

Wason, R.

Curteis, Captain

Watkins, L.

Faithfull, G.

Wigney, I. N.

Fancourt, Major

Wilks, J.

Fielden, J.

Winnington, H.

Foley, E.

SCOTLAND.

Folkes, Sir W.

Ferguson, Captain

Gaskell, D.

Maxwell, Sir J.

Hume, J.

Oswald, R. A.

Ingilby, Sir W.

Sinclair, G.

James, W.

Wallace, R.

Keppel, Major

IRELAND.

Leech, J.

Jacob, E.

Lennard, Sir T.

O'Connell, M.

Lister, E. C.

O'Connell, M. J.

Mills, W.

O'Connell, J.

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Ruthven, E. S.

PAIRED OFF.

Ruthven, E.

Goring, H. D.

Sheil, R. L.

Handley, Henry

TELLERS.

Troubridge, Sir T.

Cobbett, W.

Tynte, C. J. K.

Curteis, H. B.

Question again put, that the Speaker leave the Chair.

RUSSIAN AND TURKISH TREATIES.
Mr. Sheil, in rising to bring this matter before the attention of the House, observed, that having agreed on a former occasion to postpone his Motion in consequence of the pressure of other business, he considered himself so much the more entitled to attention at present, particularly as no other business pressed before the Easter recess. If it should be asked why he had introduced a subject so important to the attention of the House, his answer would be that, before he exercised the right vested in every Member of that House, he had taken care to make himself acquainted with it. He should at once proceed, without any preliminary observation, to the statement of the facts, incidents, and documents, on which he should ground his Motion. In the autumn of 1831, Ibrahim Pacha marched into Syria; on the 3rd of December in that year, Acre was besieged; it fell in May 1832. Ibrahim Pacha advanced to Damascus, which was taken on the 14th of June. On the 7th of July, the fate of Syria was decided by the battle at Homs. It was easy to foresee these successes, and to anticipate the victory of Egyptian discipline over Turkish disorganization. Was it not most strange that at this period we had no Ambassador at Constantinople? There was no Ambassador from the English or French Governments. General Guilleminot had been French Ambassador during the Polish war; but, in consequence of his interference in urging the Porte to take advantage of that crisis, he was removed by Sebastiani, at the instance of Count Pozzo di Borgo. Turkey applied to England in this emergency for aid. This most important fact had been admitted by the noble Lord in that House. That assistance was refused. Even Russia concurred in recommending, that succour should be afforded. Russia calculated, of course, on the refusal. Naval aid was all that was asked. It was obvious that it would have been sufficient to deter Ibrahim from advancing. He marched on, and forced
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the passes of the Taurus. On the 21st of December, the battle of Koniah was fought, and the last Turkish army was annihilated. The moment for Russian interposition and the triumph of its crafty policy was now arrived. The emperor Nicholas, after England had refused her assistance, had sent General Mauravieff to Constantinople, with a letter, written in the language of fraternal endearment, to the Sultan, offering fleets and troops. This proposition was not at first acceded to, but on the 2nd of February, 1833, he applied for this sinister aid. As yet there was no English or French Ambassador in Constantinople. Lord Ponsonby, who had been appointed in November, did not arrive until the succeeding May. Admiral Roussin reached Constantinople on the 17th of February; on the 19th, he remonstrated (which England never did) on the occupation of Turkey by Russian troops. The Turkish government was struck with the force of his representations—but on the very next day the Russian fleet arrived in the Bosphorus. Admiral Roussin employed his best efforts to induce Ibrahim to sign a treaty, but he was counteracted by Russia, of which there could be little question. The French Ambassador was alone. Had he been sustained by Lord Ponsonby and an English fleet, much might have been effected; but Russian diplomacy, sustained by 20,000 troops, prevailed. The Russian army disembarked on the Asiatic side of the Bosphorus, Admiral Roussin was foiled, and to Russian interposition the Sultan declared that he owed the salvation of his empire. In May, Lord Ponsonby reached Constantinople. What he could have done, had he arrived at an earlier period, was obvious; what he actually did was equally evident. Count Orloff arrived as well as Lord Ponsonby, and the result was a consummation of the plot which had been darkly and deeply laid. From the Divan let them turn for a moment to St. Stephen's Chapel. On the 11th of July, the hon. member for Coventry had moved "for copies of papers respecting the measures pursued by Russia, in her late interference with the state of Turkey." On that occasion the noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) made some most important statements. The noble Lord resisted the Motion, because the transactions to which the papers related were incomplete, and their character must depend on their termination. He admitted,

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that aid had been asked of England by the Porte, and refused, and that if England had thought proper to interfere, the progress of the invading army would have been stopped, and the Russian troops would not have been called in. The aid granted by Russia was merely to repress Mehemet Ali. The integrity of the Ottoman empire should be maintained. The noble Lord said, "The taunt, of the Government being afraid of war is puerile, and I defy any man to show, that we have made any sacrifice of the honour or interests of the country for the sake of maintaining peace." He (Mr. Sheil) would not interrupt the order of the statement here by any commentary on this intrepid and chivalrous declaration, but would content himself with whispering "Poland" in the car of the noble Lord. The noble Lord concluded by saving, "that he had no doubt that Russia would honourably withdraw her troops, as soon as peace should be established, and fulfil the pledges which she had made in the face of Europe." The 11th of July was the day on which this speech was delivered. How little did the noble Lord conjecture, that only three days before, on the 8th of July, a Treaty had been clandestinely signed at Constantinople between the Sultan and Count Orloff, who, while he appeared to be engaged in the reviews, shows, and illuminations of the seraglio, was secretly and silently conducting the Sultan to the ruin which had been prepared for him. Of this treaty our Government knew and heard nothing until it was announced in the Morning Herald of the 21st of August. On the 21st of August a letter from the private correspondent of that Journal appeared, in which it was stated that, "while Count Orloff was apparently complying with the wishes of France and England, he was preparing a stroke which only became known the day after his departure, which has since covered the Ambassadors of those countries with confusion, and has placed Turkey in the bug of the bear. He prevailed on the Sultan to sign a treaty, offensive and defensive, by which Turkey is bound not to make any treaty or call for assistance from any other nation for ten years. One of the articles confirms all prior treaties, in particular that of Adrianople; another binds Russia to furnish every assistance necessary to protect her from internal and external enemies; and the third, interdicts her from resorting
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to any other European power for ten years." The writer adds, that the other articles of the treaty were unknown; that the treaty was clandestinely concluded; that Lord Ponsonby and Admiral Roussin remonstrated, and were told that assistance had been asked in vain from England and France against Egypt, and that they had left the Porte no alternative; and that the Ambassadors had despatched couriers to their Courts for instructions. The writer said nothing with regard to the Dardanelles. This letter was, as he had said, published August 21, 1833, in London. On the 24th of that month, the gallant member for Westminster introduced the subject to the notice of the House. He asked whether the Russian troops had entered Turkey with the consent of France and England. He adverted to the fortifications of the Dardanelles, under the superintendence of Russian engineers, and added that it was rumoured that a treaty, offensive and defensive, had been entered into between the Sultan and Count Orloff, without the intervention or knowledge of the other Ambassadors. The hon. member for Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis) referred to the letter in the Morning Herald, and trusted, that the noble Lord would not allow the House to receive its information from the newspapers, but would give it in the usual manner. The hon. Member trusted, that before the prorogation of the House, or on the earliest occasion, the noble Lord would lay before the House, not merely the treaty, but the communications connected with it. He hoped the noble Lord would be able to contradict rumours of a treaty so injurious to the honour and interests of England. The noble Lord replied that a treaty had been signed; that it had not yet been officially communicated; that he knew nothing, except on vague rumour, at that time, of what the treaty contained. He said, that England had not objected to the entry of the Russian troops into Turkey, and that the Porte had, in the autumn of 1832, applied to England for assistance, but that the application was refused. On the 29th August, five days after, his Majesty's Speech on the prorogation of Parliament was delivered, and contained the following passage:—"The hostilities which had disturbed the peace of Turkey have been terminated; mid you may be assured that every attention will be carefully directed to any events which may

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affect the present state, or the future independence of that empire." From the King's Speech he should pass to a very momentous communication made by France to Russia, in the following October. The interests or France and England were bound up together in the whole question, but more especially with respect to the passage of the Dardanelles, as by the Treaty of Paris in 1802, the rights of France and of England were placed upon precisely the same footing. In October last Monsieur Le Grenee addressed the following note to Count Nesselrode:—"The undersigned Chargé d'Affaires of his Majesty the King of the French, has received orders to express to the Cabinet of St. Petersburg, the profound affliction felt by the French Government, on learning the conclusion of the Treaty of the 8th July last, between his Majesty the Emperor of Russia and the Grand Signior. In the opinion of the King's Government, this Treaty assigns to the mutual relations existing between the Ottoman empire and Russia, a new character against which the powers of Europe have a right to protest." To this note, Count Nesselrode replied, in the following offensive and almost contumelious language:—"It is true, that this act changes the nature of the relations between Russia and the Porte, for in the room of long-continued hostilities, it substitutes that friendship and that confidence, in which the Turkish Government will henceforth find a guarantee for its stability and necessary means of defence, calculated to insure its preservation. In this conviction, and guided by the purest and most disinterested intentions, his Majesty the Emperor is resolved, in case of necessity, to discharge faithfully the obligations imposed on him, by the Treaty of the 8th of July, thus acting as if the declaration contained in the note of Monsieur La Grenee had no existence.—St. Petersburg, Oct. 1833." This note was taken from the Augsburg Gazette, to which it purported to have been transmitted in a letter from Paris on the 23rd of December. Here let one remark be made, which would not break in on the distinct classification of facts. If the French Government remonstrated, it was to be presumed that the noble Lord did not remain silent. Where was his correspondence? Was a note as affronting written in reply, or was it even couched
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in more caustic phraseology, and in the same style of contemptuous repudiation as the article in the St. Petersburg Gazette on the presumption of our interference in the affairs of Poland? To return to dates and facts, on the 1st of January, Count Pozzo di Borgo addressed the King of the French, and on that occasion the accomplished Corsican pronounced on Louis Philip an eulogium, accompanied with protestations, characteristic of both, of the party who indulged in, and the party who was graciously pleased to accept, the hollow panegyric. Six days after, in bringing up the address, M. Bignon delivered a speech, which was received with equal surprise and acclamation. He denounced the conduct of Russia towards Poland, and held out the aggressions upon Turkey as indicative of that deep and settled purpose, of which he had, in his official capacity, a perfect cognizance. In 1807, he said, Alexander had tendered all Southern Europe to Napoleon, provided he got Constantinople in exchange. He warned France to beware of the advances of Russian power in the East, and denounced, while he revealed her policy; and invoked his countrymen to awaken to a sense of the insults offered to the dignity of France, and the violation offered to her rights. To this speech the Duke de Broglie made an answer conspicuous in itself, and which his subsequent conduct rendered still more remarkable. He expressed his unqualified concurrence in all that had been said, and thanked M. Bignon for having given expression to the sentiments which he and his colleagues entertained. On the very next day, this very Duke de Broglie went down to the Chamber, and made a speech which was received with astonishment by both countries. He contended, that no violation of treaty had taken place,—expressed satisfaction with Russian policy, and stated, that there had been no material alteration made respecting the passage of the Dardanelles. M. Thiers, in reply to M. Mauguin, said nearly the same thing, and although M. La Grenee's note was yet fresh in every memory, and the Duke of Broglie's approval of Bignon's speech was ringing in every ear, expressed no sort or discontent at any one of the incidents which had taken place. M. Thiers, however, incidentally acknowledged, that it was a part of the treaty, that all vessels

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of powers at war with Russia, should be excluded from the passage of the Dardanelles. Our own Parliament did not meet until the 5th of February, but before it assembled, an incident occurred which remained to be explained. The French and English fleets united proceeded to the Dardanelles, which Russia had spared no expense to fortify, and having displayed the tricoloured and "the national flag of England," as it had been nobly called, near the spot where Sir George Duckworth, when Lord Grey was Secretary for Foreign Affairs, expended a good deal of powder without much avail, both fleets sailed away, and instead of proceeding to Smyrna, gave preference to a more distant, but less commodious harbour, where, however, Russian influence was not quite so predominant as in that celebrated haven. The glory of this expedition belonged to the First Lord of the Admiralty, but it was to be conjectured that the achievement was suggested by the genius of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs. But in what did it result? That remained to be told, and for the satisfaction of that curiosity he that night afforded an opportunity. Parliament met on the 5th. The King's Speech informed them that the integrity of the Porte was, for the future, to be preserved (the Sultan having been first stripped, and then manacled), and that his Majesty continued to receive assurances which did not disturb his confidence that peace would be preserved. The Duke of Wellington, in another place, adverted to the Treaty of Constantinople, and Lord Grey retorted Adrianople upon his Grace But, in the Treaty of Adrianople, there was, at all events, nothing that infringed upon our rights, as to the navigation of the Black Sea; and it was to be recollected that, whatever the First Lord of the Treasury might have said, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs declared that, "while he desired peace, of war he was not in the least afraid." In that House no interrogatories were put. On the 24th of February, the following paragraph appeared in the Globe, which, from its being the supposed organ of Government, deserved great attention, the more especially as they were left to the newspapers for their intelligence. That article stated:—"Another treaty between Russia and Turkey has been concluded at St. Petersburgh, which was signed by Achmet Pacha, on the 29th of last month.
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Enough has transpired to satisfy the most jealous that its spirit is pacific, and, indeed, advantageous to the Turkish empire. The Porte is relieved from the pressure of the engagements imposed on her at Adrianople; and we understand that the Principalities, with the exception of Silistria, will shortly be evacuated, and the sum exacted by the former treaty reduced one-third. Such relaxations of positive engagements are proof's either of the moderation and good sense of Russia, or of the influence which the union of England and France, and the firm and concerted language of those two Powers, have acquired in the Councils of St. Petersburgh." Was it not reasonable that this treaty should be laid before the House? It was to be observed, that, in any account of it, either in our journals, or in the Allgemeine Zeitung, not one word was said of the passage of the Dardanelles. The Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia, indeed, were to be evacuated. That circumstance was a mere delusion, for Wallachia and Moldavia were as much dependencies on Russia as if they had actually been transferred. Their Hospodars were virtually nominated by Russia; no Turk could reside in the country; and every appointment down to that of the humblest officer, was effected through Russian dictation. Silistria was retained, the key of the Lower Danube, commanding all Bulgaria, and a place so important that the Greek emperors constructed a wall there to protect their frontier, and guard against the incursions of the barbarians. As to the remission of money, that concession was made to an insolvent debtor; it was not the first time that Russia adopted the same course; the payment of a tribute was of little moment from a country which was almost incorporated in her dominions, and would soon meet the fate of so many of the Turkish provinces. But how did this treaty modify or effect that of the 8th of July? It did not at all relate to it. It concerned the Treaty of Adrianople, and, as far as they had nothing else on this question, the House was entitled to receive adequate information from the Government. With respect to the Dardanelles,—a matter of signal importance to England, affecting her commerce, affecting not only the navigation of the Euxine, but giving Russia a control over Greece, and the entire Archipelago,—it might be as well to states,

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with brevity, the treaties that existed between England and Turkey, and those that existed between Russia and Turkey, previous to that regarding which information was demanded. By the Treaty of 1675, concluded by Sir John Finch, the navigation of all the Turkish seas was secured to England. In 1809, a little time after our rupture with the Porte produced by the attack on the Dardanelles, a new treaty was executed, by which the passage of the Dardanelles and the canal of Constantinople was secured to England. The 11th article provided, that, in time of peace, no ship of war should pass, no matter to what country it might belong. In 1774, by the Treaty of Kaynadgi, the passage of the Dardanelles was first secured to Russian merchant-vessels. In 1780 a quarrel took place respecting an armed vessel. In 1783 a new treaty was entered into, and another in 1792 (that treaty by which the Crimea, just like Greece, was declared independent, and then absorbed in Russian domination), and by both treaties the passage was secured to merchant vessels only. In 1800, Russia having obtained the protectorship of the Ionian Islands (their importance we felt in 1815, not so much because we desired to acquire, as to take them from a Power that aimed at predominance in the Mediterranean), entered into a treaty securing the passage of the Dardanelles to the merchant-vessels of those islands. In 1812, the Treaty of Bucharest was signed, by which Bessarabia was given up to Russia, and all former treaties respecting the Dardanelles were confirmed. In 1829, the Treaty of Adrianople was signed, and, with respect to the Dardanelles, contained the following passage:—"7th Article. The Sublime Porte declares the passage of the Canal of Constantinople completely free and open to Russian merchant-vessels under merchant flags, from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean, and from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea; upon the same principle the passage is declared free and open to all merchant-vessels belonging to Powers at peace with the Porte. The Porte declares that, under no pretence whatsoever, will it throw any obstacle in the way of the exercise of this right, and engages, above all, never hereafter to stop or detain vessels, either with cargo or in ballast, whether Russian or belonging to nations with which the Porte shall not be in a state of declared war. In the mani-
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festo published by the Emperor Nicholas on the 1st of October, 1829, he said:—"The passage of the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus is henceforth free and open to the commerce of all the nations of the world." Thus the stipulation was, that all nations at peace (not, be it observed, with Russia, but with the Porte), should enjoy the right of unimpeded passage; but that had been effected by the treaty of the 8th of July? Would it be said that nothing was accomplished by it? If so, why was it signed without the knowledge of our Ambassador, and in a clandestine and surreptitious way? What were its provisions? Did the public Journals give a just account of it? Was it true, that it provided that no vessels belonging to a power at war with Russia should enjoy the right? If so, the alteration was palpable; and if there were no express declaration to this effect, let there be an alliance offensive and defensive, and the Porte was bound to consider every enemy of Russia as its own; the consequence was precisely the same as if the Porte surrendered to Russia the possession of the Dardanelles, and the last of the sultans was the first satrap of Nicholas the Great. There did not appear to be any sound reason for withholding this treaty. It had been the subject of remonstrance by France, of debate in the French Chamber, of diversified commentary in the public journals. Why withhold it? There would be a strange inconsistency in publishing all the enormous answers to protocols respecting Belgium, where the transaction was as yet incomplete, and in refusing to furnish anything but materials for surmise on this treaty. Ponderous folios of fruitless negociations on the affairs of Belgium had been given to the world. Let the Government act upon the principle adopted in that case, and give the English people the means of forming a judgment, of the policy which his Majesty's Ministers had adopted in a question where the national honour and interest were so deeply involved. It might be said—"Trust in the Minister, be sure that he will not desert his duty, or acquiesce in any measure incompatible with the honour of England." He (Mr. Sheil) would be disposed to do so when he took into account that the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was a political proselyte of Mr. Canning, who considered the interests and the honour of England as closely blended; and although the noble

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Lord might have abandoned the opinions on domestic policy which were entertained by Mr. Canning when he was in the wrong, it was to be presumed that he adhered with a closer tenacity to those opinions in foreign policy where Mr. Canning was in the right. But this ground of confidence in the noble Lord was modified, if not countervailed, by the recollection, that in many recent transactions he had been baffled by that power which had gathered all the profligate nobility of Europe together, in order to compound a cabinet of Machievellian mercenaries to maintain the cause of slavery through the world. Look at Belgium—look at the Russian-Dutch loan! The noble Lord, although guided by the prince of Benevento, had lost his way in the labyrinth which Russia had prepared for him and Poland. "We shall," he exclaimed, "remonstrate." Well, we did remonstrate, and despatched Lord Durham to St. Petersburgh (why was not Sir Stratford Canning there?) and what had been the result? If confidence was to be entertained in the noble Lord, it must be built on some firmer basis than his maintaining of the Treaty of Vienna. Instead of calling on the people of England to confide in him, let him build his confidence in the English people. They were fond of peace, but they were not afraid of war; and when the honour and dignity of England were to be maintained, he would find in them sympathy, and generous auxiliaries. Our fleet could blow the Russian navy from the seas; England was yet a match for the Northern Autocrat; and there was might enough left in her arm to lay low the colossus by which the Hellespont was bestrid. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving an Address to his Majesty, "that he would be graciously pleased to direct that copies of any treaties between Turkey and Russia, since the year 1833, and of any correspondence between the English, Russian, and Turkish Governments, respecting those treaties, be laid before the House."
Mr. Henry Lytton Bulwerseconded the Motion, and trusted that the House would insist upon the production of papers, which, if they were what they ought to be, would give the House and the nation at large that important and interesting information which was so much wanted. He did not altogether, in considering this question, lay so much stress upon the
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different treaties which had been mentioned by the hon. and learned Gentleman in his eloquent speech, because he looked upon treaties rather as declarations by the powers making them, of what they considered their respective interests for the time being, than any binding obligation. What he would lay stress upon, and what this country at large, as well as other countries laid stress upon, were the alarming practical demonstrations made by Russia in her inroads into Turkey, and all her subsequent proceedings. The Motion was not to be considered as a case of mere curiosity, or a desire to pry into the unimportant details of Ministerial policy; it was a case in which the House, as the Representatives of a people most particularly anxious on the point, were not only entitled, but were imperatively called upon, to have a clear explanation of the course of policy acted upon by the Government, and the grounds on which that policy had been adopted: the question was one of the highest importance and interest to all Europe, and ought to be clearly understood in all its bearings. As far as the people at present understood of the policy of Government in this particular, that policy was disapproved of, and it was therefore desirable that Ministers, in their own vindication, should explain themselves. It might possibly appear that the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) had been overreached by the deep diplomacy of the Russian court; but at present he was generally blamed for not having followed one of two courses—either that of leaving the Sultan and the Pacha to settle their disputes by themselves, by abstaining from interference between them, and preventing other Powers from interfering; or that of interfering in the open, decided, and influential manner which became the power and dignity of the British empire. Neither of these courses had been pursued, and the country was therefore very naturally anxious and entitled to have an explanation of the matter.
Viscount Palmerston, in replying to the speech of the hon. and learned member for Tipperary, did certainly not mean to complain of the manner in which he had brought this subject before the House; because nothing could be more good-humoured. The hon. and learned Member said, that as the House had got through most of the Estimates, and as there was nothing particular to do before the Easter

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recess, they might as well amuse themselves by talking a little about foreign affairs; and, therefore, if the House would listen to him, he would make (as the hon. and learned Member certainly did) an eloquent and very entertaining speech about Russia and Turkey, and all the other Powers interested in the transactions that had lately taken place between those two countries. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated that, in moving for these papers, he intended to throw no blame upon his Majesty's Ministers; but nevertheless, he should not feel it consistent with his duty to agree to the Motion—not even to that part of it which called for the Convention of July, and which was not included in the original notice, but which the hon. and learned Gentleman had since added; because he felt, and he was sure the House would admit the force of the observation, that if the state of the transactions to which the Motion related, were such as to make it consistent with the public service that the treaty for which the hon. and learned Gentleman called should be laid before Parliament, it would also be proper and consistent that other papers should be produced at the same time, for the purpose of explaining the transactions which gave rise to the treaty, and the bearing and effect of that treaty upon all the parties interested. But, in the present state of these transactions, he felt that it would not be consistent with the interests of the public service to lay those papers before the House. When a Minister stated that upon his responsibility, he required from the House that it would place confidence in him, and would not press for the production of papers which he, in the exercise of his judgment, thought it necessary to withhold. He fully admitted, that to resist the production of papers upon a subject of this kind, was to appeal, in a strong and pointed manner, to the confidence of the House; but, upon the present occasion, he hoped that the House would refuse to accede to the Motion. The hon. and learned Gentleman had not laid any sufficiently strong parliamentary grounds upon which to induce the House to concur in it. A Gentleman who, upon occasions like the present, moved for the production of papers, ought to show that there was a strong prima facie case of blame resting upon the Government; and that, for the vindication of the honour and dignity of the country, it was necessary that the pa-
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pers moved for should be produced. He had listened with great attention to the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, but he confessed, that he could scarcely perceive any points upon which the hon. and learned Member even attempted to throw on the Government any degree of blame for the course it had pursued. The hon. and learned Member laid most stress upon the refusal of the British Government to give to the Sultan that aid which was asked for towards the close of the year 1832. Upon that point it would be very easy to satisfy the House that no blame was imputable to the Government. The transactions between Mehemet Ali and the Sultan commenced, as the hon. and learned Gentleman had stated, in October, 1831; and, as the hon. and learned Gentleman had also very correctly stated, the decisive action between the troops at Koniah did not take place till December, 1832. Now, it was not usual for this country to be ready to interfere in contests between sovereigns and their subjects; and, although the Pacha of Egypt was unquestionably a very powerful subject, approaching, in many respects, to the situation of an independent ruler of a country, yet he was the subject of the Sultan, and, as such, must be considered by the Government of this country. The very circumstances which the hon. and teamed Gentleman alluded to, namely, the early period at which the contest began, and the length of its duration, proved that, till near its conclusion, it did not assume a character so different from that of the usual contests between the governors of provinces and the Sultan, as to lead to the supposition that the result would be very different from the usual results of those contests. The whole history of the Turkish Empire was full of successive revolts of powerful vassals against the Sultan—sometimes with success at the first on the one side—sometimes on the other; but almost invariably ending in the reassertion of the authority of the Sultan. It, therefore, would have required some strong reason to have induced the Government of England to interfere, by force of arms, in the contest between the Sultan and his rebellious subject, the Pacha of Egypt. Assistance was at length asked by the Porte in November, 1832, but the decisive battle of Koniah took place so soon afterwords, namely, in December following, that, from want of time, no interference

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could have been exercised, on the part of this country, early enough to have prevented that catastrophe. [Mr. Sheil: Assistance was asked in October, 1832.] Not till the 3rd of November. M. Maurojeni, the first official bearer of the application of the Sultan, did not arrive in London till the 3rd of November, 1832. Even if the British Government had been prepared, at that moment, to despatch a fleet to succour the Sultan, and obviously a naval force was the only one which this country could send, it would not have arrived in time to have prevented the decisive battle of Koniah. But the House would recollect, that we were then engaged in other operations, which occupied the whole of our naval force on the peace establishment. Some hon. Members who did not approve of the proceedings against Holland, might say, that they were no satisfactory reason why we had not a fleet in the Mediterranean. But he considered it sufficient to say, that a naval force was required for the operations in relation to Holland, and that another part of our fleet was engaged in the Tagus; and, unless Ministers had asked Parliament for additional supplies, to send a third squadron to the Mediterranean, it would not have been possible to have found, at that time, a sufficient number of ships for that service. But, although his Majesty's Government did not comply with that demand of the Sultan for naval assistance, yet the moral assistance of England was afforded; and the communications made by the British Government to the Pacha of Egypt, and to Ibrahim Pacha, commanding in Asia Minor, did materially contribute to bring about that arrangement between the Sultan and the Pacha, by which the war was terminated. The House must not suppose, therefore, because the British Government did not yield that particular kind of assistance which the Turkish Government required, that it remained an indifferent spectator of the danger to which the throne of the Sultan was exposed, and took no steps to bring about a pacification between the Sultan and his vassal. If he understood the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman, he said, that because Great Britain did not grant any assistance, the Sultan was compelled to have recourse to Russia for aid, and that we had no right to complain of Russia for having enabled the Sultan to save himself from the danger with which he was
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threatened. Great Britain never complained of Russia granting that assistance. He had stated, on a former occasion, when he was interrogated on that point, that Great Britain did not complain of the assistance which Russia had afforded to Turkey, but, on the contrary, was glad that turkey had been able to obtain effectual relief from any quarter; and he had stated, that our Government reposed perfect confidence in the assurances it had received from the Russian Government, that when the force so sent had effected the object for which it was despatched—namely, the defence of the Sultan and his capital—it would retire to the Russian dominions. In that confidence Ministers were not deceived; that force did retire; and, therefore, not only were they justified in not remonstrating against the aid given by Russia to Turkey, but they were fully borne out in their belief, that when that defence had been effected, the troops so sent would be withdrawn. The hon. and learned Gentleman said, that from the year 1831 down to the month of May, 1833, there was no British Ambassador resident at Constantinople. The hon. and learned Gentleman was entirely mistaken. Sir Stratford Canning went, to Constantinople in the beginning of the year 1832; he went on a special mission to make an arrangement for obtaining an improved frontier for Greece. In that mission he succeeded; he obtained for Greece a most excellent frontier on the continental side, and having conluded that negotiation at the end of August, he quitted Constantinople in the beginning of September, 1832. From the early part of the year 1832, therefore, up to the beginning of September in that year, a British Ambassador was at Constantinople. As soon as Sir Stratford Canning had left Constantinople, or very soon afterwards, Lord Ponsonby, who was then Minister at Naples, was appointed to succeed him at Constantinople. The notification reached him in November, and the only circumstances which prevented him getting to Constantinople until the end of May, were the difficulties experienced in making the necessary arrangements for his conveyance, and the unfavourable state of the weather. Lord Ponsonby, moreover as Ambassador at Naples, was there engaged in transactions of considerable importance; but, if the hon. and learned Gentleman thought, that be-

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cause Lord Ponsonby was at Naples, therefore the country was wholly unrepresented at Constantinople, he was mistaken. We had there a Secretary of Embassy; and he could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman and the House, that British interests did not suffer in any degree, in consequence of there being no person at Constantinople during that period, bearing the rank of Ambassador. The hon. and learned Gentleman had failed, therefore, to establish any ground of complaint against the Government for not having given the Sultan that naval assistance which was asked for in the beginning of November. Even if the fleet had been sent—if it had sailed from the ports of England immediately—that fleet could not have arrived before the battle of Koniah, nor could it by its presence have prevented that battle. [Mr. Sheil: The battle was in July.] The battle of Homs was in July; but the application did not arrive until the November following. Surely, the hon. and learned Gentleman would not argue, that by complying with the request made in November, we could have prevented the occurrence of an event which took place in the preceding July? The hon. and learned Gentleman afterwards proceeded to the treaty which was concluded at about the time when the Russian troops retired from Constantinople. [Mr. Sheil: The Treaty of the 8th of July.] Yes; the Treaty of the 8th July. When questions were put to him relative to that Treaty, in the months of July and August of last year, he had no official knowledge of it, because it was not communicated by either of the parties until after it was ratified; and the ratification was not to take place until two months after its signature. The hon. and learned Gentleman would therefore see that it was perfectly impossible that a treaty not to be ratified at Constantinople until the month of September could be officially known to him in August. The hon. and learned Gentleman had inquired whether the British Government approved of that treaty, or looked upon it with satisfaction? Certainly it did neither; because that treaty, even on the first glance, wore the semblance of being intended to give Russia some advantages with respect to Turkey, which she did not possess before, and which were not to be enjoyed by the other Powers of Europe. But he was bound to say, that the explanations which
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had since been given of what were apparently the most objectionable parts of that treaty—the explanations given by both parties concerned—had tended, in some degree, to alter the impression which the announcement of that treaty necessarily produced upon the Government; and which it appeared to have produced also upon the mind of the hon. and learned Gentleman—especially with regard to the bearing of the articles of that treaty upon the navigation of the Dardanelles. The hon. and learned Gentleman quoted the Treaty of 1809; the eleventh article of that treaty was to this effect:—"That whereas it is the ancient custom of the Turkish empire,"—not the law of Europe, as the hon. and learned Gentleman quoted the passage,—"that in time of peace,"—that is, when the Turk is at peace,—"no ships of war shall be allowed to pass the straits between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean; and whereas it is the intention of the Porte strictly to cause that custom to be observed in future, Great Britain declares that she will, in future, conform strictly to that usage and regulation." According to the Treaty of 1809, therefore, British ships of war had no right, in time of peace, to pass the straits between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, without a special permission from the Sultan. Undoubtedly, on the first appearance of the Treaty of July last, it did seem that, under the circumstances in which that treaty was to take effect, a difference was established between the ships of war of Russia and those of other Powers, with respect to the passage of the Dardanelles. But the Government had been assured by both the contracting parties, that their understanding of that treaty was different, and that the war flag of Russia was placed on exactly the same footing as that of any other country with regard to the passage of the Dardanelles, even should the casus fœderis contemplated in the separate article arise,—the case, namely, of Russia being at war, and Turkey remaining at peace with this country,—both parties declare and agree, that in that case the treaty would not give the Russian ships of war any power or privilege of passing through the Dardanelles, other than those conceded to the ships or war of any other nation.
Mr. Sheil, interrupting the noble Viscount said, if Great Britain were at war

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with Russia, then, by virtue of the treaty, her ships would be excluded from the Dardanelles. By the treaty of 1809, as he understood it, a right was given to all merchant vessels to enter the Dardanelles. He conceived the effect of the Treaty of the 8th of July, was this:—if England were at war with Russia, and not with Turkey, then Russia would have a right to close the Dardanelles upon our merchant ships, by virtue of the treaty. Was that so?
Viscount Palmerstoncontinued: The Treaty of July related solely to ships of war. By the Treaty of 1809, England bound herself, that so long as Turkey was at peace, British ships of war should not assume the privilege or passing up and down these straits, except on special permission in particular cases. By the Treaty of July no difference was made between the ships of war of Russia, and those of England, in the event of those two countries being at war. By the Treaty of 1809 it was declared, that the ancient usage of the Turkish Empire being to close the straits against the ships of war of all Powers, they were to be closed equally against those of Russia, which might wish to come out, and those of other Powers which might wish to pass up.
Mr. Sheil: The treaty was offensive and defensive. By the Treaty of the 8th of July, Turkey was bound to assist Russia. Then, if England was at war with Russia, Turkey must exclude our ships from the Dardanelles. Was not that the interpretation of the treaty?
Viscount Palmerston: The treaty did not apply to merchant vessels at all. The words, specifically, were "ships of war," not merchant ships. At the same time, he did not mean to say, that under its provisions merchant vessels might not, in effect, be practically excluded from the Black Sea. He did not mean to say, that that treaty had been viewed by the Government with satisfaction; or that it was a treaty with reference to which the British Government had not expressed its dissatisfaction;—but he must say, that the assurances and explanations which it had received from the contracting parties to that treaty greatly tended to remove its objections. Although it was a treaty to which the Government of this country would do well to direct its watchful attention, still he was inclined to think, that, if this country pursued that course which alone was consistent with its dignity—if it acted with
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firmness and with temper—if it showed no unnecessary distrust, and at the same time reposed no undue confidence—he was inclined to think, that the case might not arise in which that treaty would be called into operation; and that therefore it would, in practice, remain a dead letter. If the hon. and learned Gentleman called for all the communications that might have passed between the English Government and the governments of Russia and Turkey, with reference to that treaty, he was bound to say, that it would not be for the interests of the public service to produce that correspondence at the present moment; moreover, he did not think it would at all tend to forward that object which he was sure the hon. and learned Gentleman had at heart,—the maintenance of peace, so long as peace could be maintained consistently with the interests and dignity of this country; and the hon. Member was, he was sure, of opinion that the independence of the Turkish empire essentially and directly concerned the interests of this country; when the hon. and learned Gentleman said, he should like to know what had been the language of England towards Russia, and of Russia towards England, he was sorry that it was inconsistent with his public duty to gratify the curiosity of the hon. and learned Member. He could only assure the hon. and learned Member this, that the language of England towards Russia—as he trusted it had been towards every Power with whom we preserved diplomatic relations—had been such as was consistent with our dignity and good faith; and, with respect to the language of Russia, it was, on all occasions the duty of the English Government to look rather to the acts of a foreign Power, than to the language which that Power might hold on any particular subject or occasion. The hon. and learned Gentleman said, that he did not imagine he (Viscount Palmerston) should acquiesce in all his observations, in the same manner as the Duke de Broglie had acquiesced in everything said by M. Bignon. The hon. and learned Gentleman was under a mistake with respect to the transactions to which he alluded—a mistake not in itself unimportant, and which, considering the present intimate relations which subsisted between the French and English Governments, it was very desirable that he should be set right. The speech of M. Bignon, to which the hon.

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and learned Gentleman adverted, consisted of two entirely separate and distinct parts: one was the Report which he made as chairman to the Committee to which the address had been referred; and the other was a statement of his own opinions—as a member of the French Chamber, on the general state of the affairs of Poland, and of the other countries of Europe. The acquiescence of the Duke de Broglie was specifically confined to the first part of that speech, in which M. Bignon spoke as chairman of the Committee; it was not extended to that portion of his address in which M. Bignon expressed his own sentiments as a member of the French Chamber. This was the explanation which the Duke de Broglie gave on a subsequent occasion; and, if any hon. Member would look to what then took place, bearing in mind the distinction which he had pointed out, he could not fail to see, that the implied censure of the hon. and learned Gentleman was not borne out by facts. The relations at present subsisting between England and France were, as the hon. and learned Gentleman said, more intimate, more confidential, and more friendly than, he believed, they ever were at any former period of our history. He hailed this as a matter of satisfaction; for it was a proud thing that these two countries had divested themselves of those feelings of jealousy and enmity, which for so long a period impeded the advancement, and interfered with the best interests of both. They had now cemented a friendship—of some years' duration—which had only grown stronger, and more lasting in proportion as the two governments had become better acquainted with each other. This was matter of pride and of satisfaction, because it proved that mutual friendship was founded on mutual honour and good faith. It was obvious that such a union could not exist longer than was consistent with the interests of both countries; but when two such States were bound together by the ties of interest, and the bonds of integrity, confidence, and honour, the House might well consider, that they must form in Europe a power of no mean importance. From the very constitution of both, that power could not be exercised, except for the general benefit of society; and their union, therefore, so far from being an object of jealousy to any other Power, ought,
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on the contrary, to inspire Europe with increased confidence in the maintenance of peace, and in the promotion of the happiness and prosperity of all other nations. The hon. and learned Gentleman would, he was sure, excuse him for not exactly stating why the British fleet went to the Dardanelles, why from thence to Smyrna, what it did when there, and why it returned from Smyrna to Malta. He could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman it was sent to the Dardanelles for good reasons, that it went to Smyrna for equally good reasons; and that it was for good reasons, but for British reasons only, that it was sent back from Smyrna to Malta. The hon. and learned Gentleman said, that the Ministers ought to consent to the production of the papers for which he had moved, because they produced certain papers connected with the Treaty of the 15th of November, 1831. But why were those papers produced? Because the King of England had entered into a treaty which had necessarily been laid before Parliament, and those papers were presented as being explanatory of that treaty. In the present case, however, England had been a party to no treaty whatever; there had been a treaty signed by other Powers, and that treaty had been made known to us, in the ordinary course of diplomatic communications. Parliament had always hitherto been accustomed to place, and he trusted it would continue to place, sufficient confidence in the Ministers of the day, to believe them when they stated, that the circumstances of the moment rendered it inexpedient that certain communications should be laid before the House. On these grounds he objected to the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman. For the reasons which induced him to decline acceding to the production of these papers, he was not desirous of entering into any minute discussion of the transactions to which the Motion referred. Communications were still carrying on with respect to these matters; the discussions, if he might so call them, were not yet completed; and it was contrary to the practice of Parliament to compel the Government to produce correspondence, pending a negotiation in which the interests of the country were materially involved. If the hon. and learned Gentleman wished to render it impossible for these negotiations to lead to any satisfactory result, there was

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no better mode of attaining his object, than calling upon the Government for the production of an imperfect and unfinished correspondence. If, on the other hand, the hon. and learned Gentleman wished to attain the same objects as the Ministers had in view; if he wished to assert the dignity of this country, and to uphold its interests, but at the same time to preserve peace so long as peace could be maintained, he would not press this Motion. If he understood the hon. and learned Gentleman, he was prepared to consent to giving his Majesty's Government additional means of asserting the dignity, and of protecting the interests, of this country, if those ends could not be attained by negotiation. Let the hon. and learned Gentleman reserve those means until the time when the Government called upon him and the House to give them;—do not let him force prematurely upon the Ministers what they did not call for. They hoped and trusted that peace would be preserved; but it could be preserved only by the House reposing confidence in the Government. So long as Parliament should think that Ministers were fit to administer the affairs of this country, Parliament was bound to repose confidence in them with regard to our foreign relations. If Parliament thought that the interests of this country could not safely be confided to such keeping—if, in the present case, they were not willing to trust Ministers with the maintenance of the honour of the country, without calling upon them, from day to day, to come down to the House, and produce their last despatches, for the purpose of enabling the House to judge whether the answers to those despatches were right or wrong—if such were the opinion of the House, let the House declare it, and let his Majesty's Ministers retire; but so long as the House thought the Government fit to be intrusted with the affairs of the country, so long would the House agree with him, that it was improper to force them to produce a diplomatic correspondence, the production of which, in their opinion, would be detrimental to the interests of the country. For those reasons he objected to the production of the papers moved for by the hon. and learned Gentleman; and although Ministers had received an official communication relative to the treaty to which the hon. Member had referred, yet,
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in the present state of the correspondence, the same objections apply to the production of the treaty, as exist to the production of the correspondence arising out of it; and he was, consequently, not at present prepared to agree to the production either of the one or of the other.
Colonel Daviessaid, he was not going to enter upon the question whether Ministers had conducted our foreign relations well or ill; but he would ask whether there was any more important consideration in our foreign polity than the preservation of the due balance of power in the cast of Europe? It was the duty of every prudent Ministry to watch the rapid growth which had for years been increasing, of the colossal power of Russia. Ever since the days of Catherine all the acts of chicane and subtle diplomacy had been directed to this darling object of grasping ambition. It was humiliating to reflect how this country had been outwitted by Russia in 1828, when a vote of thanks was proposed in that House, by Sir John Hobhouse, on account of the battle of Navarino. Then the Treaty of July, characterised as the salvation of the Turkish empire, and of the peace of Europe. And yet within two months, the Russian army was marching into the very heart of the Ottoman empire. He looked upon the blocking up of the Dardanelles less in an individual light, than as it formed a part of the system of Russian policy, which he generally deprecated.
Colonel Evanssaid, that even if there had been no other ground for the Motion than the notoriety of the case which his hon. and learned friend had stated, that in itself was sufficient. It was impossible, under the known circumstances, not to conclude that a most material change had occurred in the relative position of the Powers of Europe, and, that in itself formed a primâ facie case, justifying a Motion for demanding information. The noble Lord had said, that it had been impossible for England to stop the onward march of the Paella of Egypt. But, even admitting all the statements of the noble Lord to be perfectly accurate upon that point, they formed no ground why, at a future period, some more decisive step should not have been taken. The speech of the noble Lord appeared to him the most unsatisfactory that he had ever heard from him. It was perfectly true that the noble Lord had gone into a va-

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riety of dates, and into much statement, in order to show, that the Government had not the means of interfering; and yet, when any hon. Member of that House complained of the extent of the military and maritime establishments, and wished for a reduction in the Estimates, they were told to look at the lowering and unsettled state of the Continent. Of course that reason might be a very good one for maintaining a large military establishment; but, at all events, the House ought not to expect also to be told, when an emergency arose, that the Government was unable to act from the want of means. Nor could he understand how any such reason could with justice be given. It was, indeed, quite evident, that with anything like judicious conduct, France and England, in close alliance, must possess sufficient means at their command to take a decided and effectual course in such a matter. He therefore attached very little importance to the dates gone into by the noble Lord; and, without having any desire to censure the conduct of Government, he felt it to be desirable for the House to indicate the necessity of a more decided course of policy being pursued upon any future occasion. The real question was, what was the alteration which had taken place in the position of Turkey as an independent Power? That that was a question of the deepest interest to this country, it was impossible for any one to doubt. The late Government and the present Government had both acknowledged, and declared, indeed, that they considered the maintenance of the integrity of Turkey as essential to the preservation of the peace of Europe and the interests of England. Such being the case, he felt deeply indebted to his hon. and learned friend, for bringing the question before the House. Certainly, it appeared to him, and he thought it an undeniable fact, that Turkey was reduced very low by recent events. On the one hand, the Pacha of Egypt had conquered from the Porte a large tract of territory; and on the other hand, Russia, on the invitation of the Porte, had occupied Constantinople fur the preservation of Turkey. These two things were amply sufficient of themselves, supposing no treaty whatever had followed, to place Turkey in a very different position from that which she had before occupied. But when the Treaty of July came to be considered, the case was
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still more palpable. He was extremely glad to find, that the Treaty of July was disapproved of by the noble Lord, and that the noble Lord had expressed himself strongly to that effect; but, he found in that expression a full justification for the Motion of his hon. and learned friend. He understood that treaty to be merely offensive and defensive, and, if that view were correct, it would have the effect of placing England, with respect to Turkey, in case of war with Russia, in an entirely new position. Before that treaty, in case of a war with Russia, the Dardanelles were open to a British fleet, but under that treaty, the Dardanelles were barred, and the Russian ports in the Black Sea were secure against a British fleet. That was a most serious and injurious change. But if the French Minister was correct, it was a change that could not be permitted. According to the declaration of the Minister of France, the Treaty of July between Russia and the Porte, was in direct opposition to the laws of Europe, and was inimical to the maintenance of the peace of Europe. Information ought decidedly to be given on that point, in order that the House might judge of the actual position in which the question stood. He did not mean to say, that he had not confidence in his Majesty's Government, but he was anxious to see the acknowledged policy of the Government supported by a strong expression on the part of that House. He wished to see that House come to such a vote as should induce the Government to take a sterner tone than that which it had hitherto taken, in speaking to Russia. He wished to see the Government, as Turkey had fallen, rely on other means to check the growing power of Russia. A new, active, increasing, and vigorous Power had appeared, and the Government would not do its duty, if it did not raise up the Pacha of Egypt as a counterpoise against Russia in that quarter of the world. The present condition of affairs in the East was most injurious; it had not the advantage of either peace or war. An expensive squadron was kept afloat, and yet that squadron was not efficient for the purposes of active operation. It would be better for France and England at once to adopt a vigorous course of proceeding, and sustain the balance that was essential to the peace of Europe. He hoped that, under these circumstances, his hon. and learned friend would not press

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his Motion to a division, as the noble Lord had felt it his duty to refuse the information; and be satisfied by knowing that the Motion and the discussions must lead to beneficial effects.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that the noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, would have made a speech much more satisfactory to his mind, if the noble Lord had said, that acting on his own responsibility as a Minister of the Crown, he had thought it his duty to refuse the papers called for, without assigning any other reason for that refusal than, that in his opinion their production would be injurious to the public service. He wished the noble Lord had acted upon the principle of the advice once given by Lord Mansfield to a military governor of one of our West-India Islands, who had to pronounce his judgment on some cases in his character of Chancellor of the Colony—"Give your decision," said the noble Lord, "but by no means trust yourself with explaining the reasons on which you decision is founded." If the noble Lord had taken that advice, and had abstained from giving his reasons for refusing the papers called for by the hon. and learned Member, he would have done much better than by making a speech. The noble Lord had complimented the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech as eloquent, ingenious, and humorous; there was yet another epithet, that he might have bestowed upon it, for he might have called it an unanswered speech. Whether it was unanswerable or not he would not pretend to decide, but certainly it was left unanswered. The noble Lord said, it was not fair to call upon his Majesty's Government to give the House information on these pending negotiations, and produce the last despatch, to see if it were properly answered. But what had been the course taken by the House? Had it pressed for information? He must say, that never had any representative body been left more in the dark than that House on foreign affairs, and never did one show more forbearance. Why, was it not notorious, that the knowledge, imperfect as it was, which we had obtained of these important matters had been gleaned from debates in the French Chamber of Deputies, and from extracts from foreign newspapers? Was this a state in which to leave the representatives of the people of this country on matters in which the
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country was so deeply interested? He would come to the reasons on which the noble Lord had grounded his refusal, and, certainly, he must say, that though he might not, under some circumstances, feel disposed to withhold his assent from the noble Lord's refusal, had he assigned no reason for it beyond the fact, that he did not think it right to grant them; yet when he examined the reasons assigned by the noble Lord, he could, by no means, concur with him, that they were such as would justify the course he had taken. The noble Lord said, first, that in matters which were still pending, it would not be fair to Ministers to call upon them to produce a copy of their last despatches; but, he would ask, was that a correct view of the case as it stood? Were they to wait for the required information till the whole affair should be finally settled? But if that were to be so, how long might they not have to wait before they could form their opinion as to what was going forward! The second objection of the noble Lord was, that such information could not be called for by the House without casting blame on Ministers. This he must beg leave to deny. The Government called on the House to vote the Estimates for our military and maritime force: those Estimates had been already in great part voted, and, surely, it was not unreasonable to say, that the House might ask for some explanation as to our relations with other states, and the relations existing between some of those states, as they might affect us, without meaning thereby to cast any blame on the Government. Could any intention to cast such blame be fairly implied from the very natural desire of that House to know how this country was situated with respect to the chance of that to us most important subject, a foreign European war? The noble Lord maintained, that no papers ought to be given, because negotiations were still in progress. But the noble Lord, surely, could not support that principle. Were the affairs of Holland and Belgium yet settled? And if they were not, what became of the rule, that no papers should be produced till the negotiations were at an end? [Viscount Palmerston: A treaty had been concluded in that case.] Yes, but had that treaty led to the final settlement of the question between those two states? And would the noble Lord say, or had he said, that the House should have no papers on that

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subject until the whole matter should be finally arranged? Were the affairs of Portugal yet settled, or had there been any treaty signed in that case? And yet the noble Lord had not felt it his duty to withhold ample explanations, verbal and documentary. Did that, however, imply any degree of blame on the Government? No, it only showed, that when affairs affecting our relations with other States were trembling in the balance, the representatives of the people should know the exact situation in which the country stood. The noble Lord's third argument was one which, in his opinion, went far to destroy the validity of the two preceding. It was, that explanations had been already made to the Government, which had abated the fears entertained as to the objects of Russia. Why, if that were the case, should the knowledge of such gratifying information be withheld from that House? For see the situation in which that House was placed. It was in possession, no matter how, of the knowledge, that a certain treaty, injurious to England, had been formed between Russia and the Porte; upon that treaty the hon. and learned Member had ventured to put a certain construction; and then, said the noble Lord, "Oh, you are mistaken; the treaty, as appears by an explanation which the Government had had with Russia, is not of the character you assign to it." But what was the character of the treaty the noble Lord did not explain. Surely, if anything could tend to increase the probabilities of peace, a point so heartily to be desired, it would be a knowledge of that explanation which had so happily removed the anxiety and apprehension of his Majesty's Government. As the matter stood, the House had merely a knowledge of the measure which had excited the dissatisfaction and alarms of the noble Lord, and it was left to guess at the character of the satisfactory and soothing explanation. Surely, if the explanations were so satisfactory as to induce the noble Lord to dismiss from his mind all fear and apprehension as to the ultimate intentions of Russia, he must see, that it was his duty, as well in point of policy, as in point of form, to produce them. But then the noble Lord had a fourth reason against granting the information moved for. The noble Lord said, they were to attend to the acts of foreign Powers, and not to their treaties. That was a novel doctrine.
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[Viscount Palmerston had not said, their treaties, but their language.] Well, their language. Now, that might be a very good reason why the angry correspondence should be withheld; but surely it was none why all knowledge of the peace-making explanation should be refused. If the House knew nothing of the treaty which had excited the anxiety and apprehension of his Majesty's Government, and an explanation had occurred with Russia which had allayed that anxiety and apprehension, he would readily admit, that the treaty, the offensive document, ought not to be forthcoming. He would say, "Do not rake up the dying embers of a disagreement which, however much it did threaten, now no longer exists." But the present case was certainly the reverse. The House knew of the exciting cause; and it was to be left to rankle, although an explanation had occurred which ought to render it innoxious. "But then," said the noble Lord, "I think it very likely, that the Treaty of July may never come into operation." Why, the same might be said of almost any offensive and defensive treaty. The noble Lord said, that a casus fœderis might arise, and certainly one might never arise; but if one did arise—if by any circumstances England should be at war with Russia—would not the Dardanelles, under this treaty, be closed against England? The treaty was not made to operate in peace, but in case of war; and if war should arise, why then the noble Lord would, doubtless, come forward in that House, and state, that the Dardanelles were closed, and that he (the noble Lord) had proved a false prophet. Such were the reasons which the noble Lord had given for refusing the information moved for by the hon. and learned Member. How far they were satisfactory it would be for the House to judge; but certainly to him they bore a different character from that intended by the noble Lord. At the same time, though the reasons were so futile, as the noble Lord, on his responsibility as a Minister, had stated to the House, that the information desired could not be granted without prejudice to the public service, he would concede to the Minister that which he could not give up to the orator. He might think the noble Lord a very inconclusive reasoner, but he would show that respect to his dictum as Minister, which he must withhold from his logic. What

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were the merits of the question before the House? What had been the real conduct of Russia with respect to interference for the preservation of Turkey? Upon that point the character of all subsequent proceedings depended. The noble Lord had declared, that he, as a Minister of the Crown, rejoiced that Russia had replied as that Power had done to the application of the Porte for assistance. The first declaration being made, it was useless for the noble Lord to complain of the consequences of Russian interposition. If the position of Europe were such, that in order to protect the independence and integrity of the Turkish empire, no other assistance could be given but that which Russia could afford, and if the noble Lord rejoiced that Russia was able to afford it, he might lament the virtual destruction of Turkish independence, but he had no right to accuse Russia as the cause of it. For they might depend upon it, from the relative position in which Russia and Turkey stood towards each other,—after the recent war between those two Powers—after the condition to which Turkey was reduced by that war—after the long jealousy that had prevailed between the two countries—that the occupation of Constantinople by Russian troops, even for a friendly object, sealed the fate of Turkey as an independent Power. Russia might withdraw her troops, as she had withdrawn them, in punctual fulfilment of her promises; our Government might have perfect confidence in all the declarations of Russia; yet the fact of her having occupied Constantinople, even for the purpose of saving it, was as decisive a blow to Turkish independence, as if the flag of Russia now waved on the seraglio. But, said the noble Lord, the Government could not take any step for the preservation of Turkey; it did not receive any formal application from the Porte for assistance until the August or September; and a great battle was won by Ibrahim Pacha in July. What! were then his Majesty's Government so ignorant of what was passing in the Levant, that they must wait for a formal application from the Porte, before tendering her either advice or assistance? When the noble Lord saw an ally of England falling into such great difficulties, and the maintenance of the independence of that ally was of such vast importance, was it necessary for the
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noble Lord to have a certificate delivered in due form by an ambassador, before he could go to her assistance? No, no, that was not the reason. The noble Lord had given the true reason why no step was taken for the defence of Turkey. All the disposable fleet, the noble Lord said, was occupied: but how occupied? In blockading the Tagus and the Scheldt. That was why assistance could not be given to Turkey, and that was what had made the noble Lord rejoice at the succour afforded to the Porte by Russia. The fleets of England were enforcing the blockade of our allies the Dutch, and maintaining neutrality—they of course practised non-interference—with our allies, the Portuguese, in the Tagus; and, therefore, the noble Lord was thankful to Russia for rescuing Turkey. That being the case, all the rest of the conduct of Russia was natural, and, indeed, almost necessary. The indemnity taken by Russia was moderate, and in accordance with reason, and not to be complained of with justice by the noble Lord. To crown the whole, when the crisis of the fate of the independence of Turkey had arrived, there was no British Ambassador at Constantinople. True there was one charged by his Majesty to fill that office, and to protect the interests of England with the Porte; but winds were unfavourable, and bound him to the port of Naples. Although there was a British man-of-war in waiting, yet such had been the difficulties or the dangers to overcome, that the Ambassador of his Majesty was six months in making his way to Constantinople. Such was the frightful danger of those terrific seas, and of that inhospitable climate, that though the very crisis of the fate of Turkey had arrived, still a British Ambassador, with a British man-of-war waiting his command, could not dare the dangers of the deep. In other times, indeed, far different scenes had been recorded—
"Otium Divos rogat in patenti
Prensus Ægæo, simul atra nubes
Condidit Lunam, neque certa fulgent Sidera nautis."
In the present case, however, the British Ambassador appeared to have prayed for the otium, before he encountered the danger. It might have been expected, that, since the days of Horace, the art of navigation had so far advanced, that it would have been possible for a British

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Ambassador, on board a British man-of-war, in the extreme crisis, in the agony of a friendly empire to which that Ambassador was deputed, to have braved the risk, and made the extraordinary attempt to reach Constantinople, even in the winter. But, after all, the noble Lord had a triumphant answer to all objections. "There exists," says the noble Lord, "the closest alliance between England and France." He could but remark, that whenever the noble Lord was thrown into any difficulty as to any part of our foreign European policy, he at once found a ready means of escape, by congratulating the House upon the close alliance which existed between this country and France. Doubtless, a friendly alliance with France was extremely desirable; but why was it always, upon all occasions, to be adverted to as a compensation for the loss of all other alliances? He was not aware, that the noble Lord would have thought it necessary to introduce any reference to the declarations of the French Ministers in the Chamber of Deputies, when discussing the Treaties between Russia and the Porte. He should have thought, that the noble Lord would rather have discountenanced any allusion to foreign debates, and more especially to those marvellous contradictions of the Due de Broglie, which astounded all Europe. But as he did not think the practice of either attacking or vindicating the ministers of another country for speeches delivered by them, was a practice to be encouraged, he should abstain from all further allusion to the matter. There might, however, be a peculiar reason in this case, for the allusion of the noble Lord to our intimate alliance with France. It was, probably, because that alliance was so intimate, that French example and French policy have controlled our proceedings with respect to Turkish independence. That might be, and most probably was, the real explanation of the course which the British Government had taken. How could France, with justice or honour, hold a high tone towards Russia with respect to the interference of Russia with Turkey? Was it not—he would not say a notorious fact—but was it not the universal impression in all Europe—that Ibrahim Pacha was acting against the Sultan on a secret understanding with France? Was it not the impression of all Europe, that the army of Ibrahim was, in all the prin-
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cipal departments, officered and directed by French officers acting with the consent of France? Was that true, or was it not? He did not mean to say, that there was a formal and recognised alliance between Ibrahim and France, but that France was sanctioning and encouraging the acts of Ibrahim, by means as efficacious as if such an alliance had existed. If that were so, and if England felt herself so bound by her intimate alliance with France, that her hands were tied up—that she was compelled to connive, at least, at an aggression upon Turkey, which France had directly encouraged—then we see in these circumstances reasons for the forbearance of England better—or at least more intelligible—than any that the noble Lord had stated. Could France refuse to Russia the right of occupying the dominions of the Porte after the course which she herself had taken with regard to Algiers? Did not France intend, without reference to England, or to Russia, or to the Porte, to take permanent occupation of Algiers? If France did intend that, contrary to the solemn declaration made by her sovereign, Louis Philippe, on his accession to the throne—if she did intend to appropriate to herself a possession of the Porte, which, though virtually independent, still acknowledged the superiority and sovereignty of the Porte,—and if France had also, either directly or indirectly, encouraged the Pacha in his attack on Turkey,—then Russia had a right to reject the remonstrances of France, and to protect Turkey in spite of France. If, too, Great Britain, was so intimately bound by her boasted alliance with France, as to be forced to support the policy of France, then, though the Ministers did not avow it, he could understand why they were forced to leave to Russia the task of protecting Turkey from the irruption of Ibrahim. These were the grounds upon which, he thought, that we might have expected, and might have foreseen, from the interference of Russia, those consequences which had since ensued. Whether the treaties entered into were pregnant with future danger to this country or not, was a matter he should reserve for future discussion, if an opportunity was afforded him. For the present, he claimed the right to know what were our relations with Russia,—what were our relations with Turkey,—

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what were the treaties which had been entered into between those two Powers which at first gave rise to serious apprehensions on the part of this country,—which apprehensions, the noble Lord said, had been removed by subsequent explanations? This constituted a body of information which the Representatives of the people of England, in the present state of foreign affairs, had a right to require, and which the British Government ought to give by a formal and authorized communication to Parliament, instead of leaving the House of Commons entirely in the dark, or, at least, with no other means of acquiring knowledge, than those which might be imperfectly supplied by foreign newspapers, or the debates in foreign Chambers.
Mr. Secretary Stanleysaid, the right hon. Baronet, while he had professed in the course of his speech an earnest desire that the good understanding which happily existed between England and France should be continued, yet seemed at least to make it a matter of reproach that that subject should have been adverted to by his Majesty's Government with pleasure. He held it to be matter of congratulation that two countries the most powerful, the most enlightened, and, he would add, the most liberal, were engaged in bonds of such close and intimate union, and thus affording the prospect of a continuance of that good feeling which promised not only peace and security to themselves and to Europe, but which promised generally to ensure the maintenance and support of liberal principles. The right hon. Baronet had introduced—he knew not why, except, indeed, for the sake of conveying reflections on the conduct of France—the question of the occupation of Algiers. In what situation Algiers might be placed he knew not, nor would he enter upon the question further than to state, that he believed the possession of Algiers rested precisely in the same position as it did when the right hon. Baronet quitted office. Algiers and France stood in relation to each other precisely in the same position as they did prior to the late Ministers' retiring. And without entering any further into the question, he would express his belief that, if there was any one nation in Europe to which the possession of Algiers would be less advantageous, and its abandonment of greater benefit than another, that nation was France itself. Certain he
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was, that the possession of that settlement by France was not injurious to the interests of England, or the advancement of the civilization of Europe. Now, he was ready to admit to the right hon. Baronet (and he did not think that his noble friend meant to call the fact in question) the kind feeling which that House had uniformly evinced upon all questions connected with our foreign policy. He was ready to admit, that this and other great political questions were surrounded with many difficulties upon their taking office; and those difficulties, he must say, were left them as a happy legacy by their predecessors. There were three great questions to be disposed of; namely, the dispute between Belgium and Holland—the affairs of Portugal—and the state of Turkey. It was urged by the right hon. Baronet, that the state of affairs with respect to two of these countries was anything but satisfactory; and yet that papers had been laid on the Table respecting them without giving or implying any offence to the Government by the motion. This might be true: it was, in fact, true. But did the right hon. Baronet recollect, that the speech of the hon. Member implied a censure on Ministers for their conduct on the occasion in question? "Why," said the hon. and learned Member, "did not Ministers do this, and why did they not do that?—why are we to be left in the dark by having these papers refused to us, when similar papers were granted to the House on former occasions?" But that hon. Member should bear in mind that the periods of the negotiation were different. The affairs between Belgium and Holland were not, it was true, settled at the period alluded to; but the negotiations had reached that point when it was proper that every necessary information should be laid before the House. Then, again, it was urged, that the affairs of Portugal were not settled when papers were laid before the House. This was certainly true. But how stood the fact? We had shown hostility to Don Miguel. Nay, we had sent a hostile fleet to demand of him redress for the injuries inflicted on our trade and commerce in a time of peace, and, in order to justify this conduct, it was necessary to lay before the House the long series of injuries which we had to complain of. Both these events required the production of the papers which had been laid before the House. But, on the present

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occasion, his noble friend's argument was this:—There is nothing parallel in the case of Turkey to those other cases: here there has been no termination of negotiations; on the contrary, they are still pending, and in such a state as would not warrant our laying these papers before the House. It had been urged, that if any angry discussions had taken place—if doubts and difficulties had arisen—if there had been crimination and recrimination on the one part and on the other, then it would be right to refuse the papers. But his noble friend's case was this:—There had been strong objections taken, and remonstrances made, and explanations had been given from time to time, which were more or less satisfactory, but which at length went so far as to remove a portion of the impressions under which those remonstrances were made. Still, however, remonstrances were made, and the negotiations were, in fact, at this moment going on; and his noble friend felt, as a British Minister, that it would be injurious alike to the interests of the Crown and the country, if, pending those negotiations, the papers called for were to be laid before the House. He went further, and, in conjunction with his colleagues, entreated the House to wait a little, and when the proper time came, all the information necessary should be given. The right hon. Baronet had thought proper to go back to the question of interference or non-interference in the year 1831. The right hon. Baronet asked why it was, that Members should wait until they had a formal announcement from Turkey on the subject, knowing, as they must have known, the state of weakness to which that Power was reduced. It was true that Ministers did know her state of weakness, as well as the causes which led to it, although they were not at all responsible for either. But, said the right hon. Baronet, why was it that Ministers, knowing to what she was reduced, did not send our fleets and armies out at once to her relief? or, at least, why did they not tender their advice to the Sultan? Why was it that they had not an Ambassador at the Porte? Could they plead that they were in want of the necessary information on the subject? Why did they not advise and say to the Sultan, "We recommend you to come to terms with your powerful vassal before he becomes too great for you?" He did not wish to meet the right hon. Ba-
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ronet with a retort instead of an argument, or else he might tell him that there was a period, between 1828 and 1829, when advice at least might have been given to Turkey; he might tell him that, before the battle of Varna, and also before the signing of the treaty of Adrianople, a period during which we had no Ambassador at Constantinople, some friendly advice and assistance might have been available; but none was given. It was the signing the treaty of Adrianople which weakened, if not destroyed, the independence of Turkey. His Majesty's Ministers might have erred in not giving advice or assistance to Turkey; but they were justified in not offering, if not compelled to offer, any resistance to the march of Ibrahim Pacha. He maintained that, in policy, we were not called upon to do so. The right hon. Baronet might indulge as he pleased in throwing out insinuations as to the secret assistance afforded by France in fomenting internal disturbances in Turkey; but he boldly asserted, that what stopped the progress of Mehemet Ali was the distinct declaration of France and England, that they would not permit the occupation of Constantinople by his troops. The right hon. Baronet argued, that his noble friend had conceded the whole question when he stated the difficulty which would have attended sending a British squadron to the Dardanelles. Now, what was the state of our affairs at that period? The right hon. Baronet seemed to think it a reproach to his Majesty's Government that the naval peace establishment of the country had been insufficient, at the time alluded to, to enable them to maintain three distinct operations. To those who complained that we had a squadron in the Downs, and another squadron at the mouth of the Tagus, it might well be a valid argument that we had not a fleet at the Dardanelles. But, at a period of profound peace, when we were on terms of perfect friendship with Russia, and reposed confidence in the assurances of that power, his Majesty's Government did not think it necessary, nor had they the means of sending distinct squadrons to the Downs, the Tagus, and the Dardanelles. "But," said the right hon. Baronet, "having permitted the Russian forces to take possession of Constantinople, you have no right to complain that Russia availed herself of the opportunity to enter into a treaty with Turkey, securing to herself advantages which she

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would not otherwise have enjoyed." Now, if the treaty which Russia concluded with Turkey had been of the character supposed by the right hon. Baronet, his Majesty's Government would have had every right to complain. When they were acting in a spirit of perfect confidence towards an ally, that ally would have had no right to conclude a secret treaty—a treaty without their knowledge or concurrence—for the purpose of forwarding his own particular purposes. If such an act had been committed, it would have been a great breach of faith, not at all discreditable to England, but highly discreditable to Russia. But, although the treaty did not bear the character which the right hon. Baronet imputed to it, the British Government thought it right strongly to express their sense of the unsatisfactory nature of some of its provisions, and to require explanations concerning them. With respect to the Dardanelles, the explanations both from Russia and Turkey had gone far to remove the most powerful objection which was supposed to exist against the treaty, namely, that in time of war the Dardanelles were to be shut against some nations, but open to others. Now they had the strongest assurances, both from Turkey and from Russia, that in the passage of the Dardanelles no advantage was to be enjoyed by Russian armed vessels over the armed vessels of any other nation; and that, in time of war, the passage was to be absolutely closed against ships of war of all nations. The right hon. Baronet had spoken of the treaty as if it were one offensive and defensive between Russia and Turkey, and as if Turkey had bound herself to close the Dardanelles whenever she should be required to do so by Russia. But what were in fact the terms of the treaty?—That Russia and Turkey being in perfect amity, in time of peace the Dardanelles were to remain free; but that, in time of war no armed vessel belonging either to Russia, or to any other power, should be allowed to pass. But what was gained by Russia in consequence of this arrangement?—In time of war Turkey was bound by the treaty to close the Dardanelles against the fleets of any and every nation. Before she concluded that treaty, Turkey possessed the power of closing the Dardanelles to both, or to either of two belligerents. By the treaty she was bound to close it to both belligerents. She was bound not to permit the vessels of other
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nations to go up the Dardanelles: she was bound not to permit the vessels of Russia to come out of the Black Sea. He did not mean to say, that this provision might not be in some respects advantageous to Russia. In time of war it might tend to defend Russia from the attack of a hostile fleet. But the offensive supposition entertained in the first instance, that Russia was to call upon Turkey to close the Dardanelles at pleasure against any other vessels but Russian, had been entirely done away by the explanations subsequently given. The right hon. Baronet had asked, what his Majesty's Government had gained by acquiescing in the treaty?—They had never acquiesced in it; they had stated their dissatisfaction with portions of it. It was in his (Mr. Stanley's) power, but as a Minister, he felt that he ought not at present to do so, to detail the satisfactory explanations which had been received on the subject. The plain state of the case was this:—For the purpose of protecting Constantinople against Mehemet Ali, which his Majesty's Government, notwithstanding the right hon. Baronet's supposition, were anxious to do, the Russian force being in readiness, entered Constantinople. Having afforded assistance to the Sultan, and England and France having combined in requiring Mehemet Ali to proceed no further, Russia withdrew from Constantinople. In the meanwhile, however, she had concluded a treaty with Russia; and a portion of that treaty appearing to his Majesty's Government to be very objectionable, remonstrances were made by this country and France, and explanations had been received which, though in a great measure satisfactory, were not wholly at an end. His noble friend, acknowledging the courtesy with which the House had hitherto treated his Majesty's Government on this subject, expressed his confident persuasion that the House would not take any step which might compromise the honour and dignity of the Government, and, therefore, would not call upon his Majesty's Ministers for the premature disclosure of a negotiation which had not yet been completed.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, with respect to the treaty of the 8th of July, the House must come to the conclusion that it was not satisfactory, else why refuse to produce it? At the time when the noble Lord was addressing the House on this

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subject on a former occasion, a treaty had been secretly and surreptitiously entered into between Russia and Turkey, which it was found bore very hard upon the interests of this country, and strongly in favour of Russia, the worst Power in Europe. It appeared to him that, if the treaty was in itself of a suspicious nature, no explanation of these two Powers ought to induce this country to sanction it. He thought that the papers called for ought to be laid on the Table, but if the noble Lord thought otherwise, he for one would not press for their production at present. If the Russian ships of war were to pass the Dardanelles to the exclusion of men of war of other nations, he should like to know what construction was to be put upon that?
Mr. Secretary Stanleyrose to explain. It had been stated in the treaty, that no foreign ships of war were to be allowed to pass the Dardanelles, and upon inquiring whether Russian men of war were included in the words "foreign ships of war," the answer was decidedly the affirmative.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonproceeded—Where, he would ask, was Russia most vulnerable? Certainly in the Black Sea, the great resort of her ships of war. But, in the event of a war, in stepped Turkey, and said, "We'll throw the shield of our mantle around you, and protect you where you are most vulnerable." If it should be the case that the Dardanelles were now rendered impregnable by the aid of Russian engineers, would this not be of itself a violation of the treaty? Would it not amount to an act of cowardice on the part of Russia? But if this were so, if fortifications had been carried on on the land side, as well as on the Straits, it was impossible that any ship could pass without the permission of Russia. It was the duty of this country to guard itself against the domineering power of Russia, who was in fact aiming a vital blow at the existence of every Power in Europe. Nay, not content with this, she contemplated the overthrow of our possessions in the East. By her inroads into Persia (inroads unopposed by us) she had obtained the keys of that empire, as she had recently obtained those of Turkey. The fact was, that the growing power and desire of dominion manifested ought long since to have been put a stop to; and it would have been put a stop to long ago, had England and France acted with the necessary firmness. With respect
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to Ibraham Pacha, we might, he believed, by our fleets have prevented his invasion of Turkey; but as he had no positive information upon this part of the case, he would not attempt to implicate Government upon slight grounds. There was one great difficulty under which a British House of Commons always laboured when they required information to be laid before them. If the negotiation were still pending, they were told that the demand for information was premature, and would, if complied with, be subversive of all the objects which Ministers had in view. But if the negotiation were at an end, then they were told that all was over, and that it would be irritating and productive of unpleasant feeling to rip old matters up again. He wished to say one word or two, to which he begged the attention of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a question of great importance, and one in which the feelings of all classes in this country were interested. He alluded to the case of Poland. He did not ask his Majesty's Ministers to alter the policy they had pursued with respect to that persecuted and unhappy country beyond this. There were at present in these kingdoms numbers of those unfortunate patriots, who had been driven from their native soil by a Prince under whom they lived, under a treaty to which this country gave a guarantee. They were driven by persecution to insurrection and revolt, the treaty was violated and trampled upon, as were the unfortunate Poles who trusted to it. But this was not all; every attempt to extend relief to the sufferers in Poland was severely punished. It was but lately that an Ukase had been published in Russia, by which the father was prohibited from relieving the son, or the wife from assisting her husband or her child; so that this great and glorious band of freemen—men who had displayed courage in the field and wisdom in the council, were made slaves at home, or driven exiles and wanderers abroad. It was for the national honour that his Majesty's Government should take the case of these brave men into their consideration. He did not press for an answer at present to this appeal. He would only add that, as strangers and as brave men in distress, they were entitled to the hospitality of the nation, and deserved whatever assistance we could afford to bestow upon them.
Sir Edward Codringtonsaid, that with

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respect to the battle of Navarino, it was a mistake to suppose that that was the cause of the distress to which Turkey had been reduced. The Emperor of Russia was most anxious that the treaty agreed to by the other Powers should be entered into with Turkey, and had sent an express to his fleet on the subject instead of taking the circuitous route of London. The Russian officers had their master's orders to co-operate with him (Sir Edward Codrington) on this subject, as he was in possession of all the necessary information. But, unfortunately, the change of Government at home prevented the treaty from being entered into; but if it had, then the other Powers would have compelled Russia to abide by it, and there would have been no war between Russia and Turkey. The armies of Russia, and not the fleets of that empire, had done injury by invading Constantinople. With respect to France, he could not agree with the right hon. Baronet, that France had shown a want of sincerity in her proceedings. It was a mistaken notion that France approved of the conduct of the French officers in the service of Mehemet Ali.
The Amendment was negatived without a division.
The House resolved into a Committee of Supply.

SUPPLY—CAPTAIN ROSS.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonrose to bring forward his motion for a grant of 5,000 l. to Captain Ross, in consideration of the services rendered by him to science, and the sufferings he endured in his expedition to discover the north-west passage. He fully agreed with the hon. member for Oldham, that the public money ought not to be given away for mere asking. This he could assure the hon. Member should not he done in the case of Captain Ross, if the House should agree to this vote. Nothing had contributed more to raise the character of this country for naval enterprise and skill than the efforts that had been made for the discovery of the northwest passage. The voyages of Franklin and Parry had placed the discovery more within reach than it ever had been before. Captain Ross certainly had not succeeded in the object of his expedition; but the result of his voyage was so far useful as to show clearly the direction in which a passage was not to be found. Captain Ross himself was unable to meet the ex-
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penses of such an undertaking; but the necessary outlay of the expedition was supplied by the princely munificence of a merchant and citizen of London. Captain Ross sailed in 1829, and was absent four years and a-half. He and his crew sustained hardships unexampled in the annals of the British marine. He ascertained that no passage was to be found as far as latitude 74. This was a most important point to be determined. It must be recollected, that Captain Franklin and Captain Parry had given it as their opinion that a passage was practicable in a certain direction. This Captain Ross made trial of, and ascertained that a passage was not practicable through the inlet mentioned by these navigators. This discovery alone entitled Captain Ross to recompense from the public, because Franklin and Parry having stated that a passage might be found in this direction, it would be the duty of Government to send out an expedition to determine whether such was the case or not. Captain Ross saved the public the expense of this expedition. Only one man of the crew had died from the commencement to the close of his arduous undertaking, though in a climate where the thermometer was occasionally ninety-two degrees below zero. This fact alone sufficiently proved the care and attention of Captain Ross to the health and comfort of his men. The hon. Member read a letter from Sir John Franklin to the nephew of Captain Ross, not knowing the address of the Captain himself, expressing his congratulations on the safe return of the Captain, and his perseverance and ability in the prosecution of the object with which he set out. He ought to mention, that this was not the only service rendered by Captain Ross to the public, for, in 1818, he discovered in Baffin's Bay a most valuable fishery, by which this country had since then been considerably enriched, as could be attested by several hon. Members of that House. The hon. Member concluded by moving the following Resolution:—"That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a sum not exceeding 5,000 l. be granted to his Majesty, in order to enable him to reward Captain Ross, of the royal navy, for the arduous and meritorious services performed by him in his voyage to the Arctic Sea, in the promotion of science and maritime discovery."
Mr. Hutthad formerly presented a Pe-

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tition on this subject, and it was one in which his constituents were deeply interested. He fully concurred in all that had been said by the hon. and learned Member as to the merits of Captain Ross. His country had drawn no less than 2,000,000 l. from the fishery discovered by him on the southern coast of Baffin's Bay. Services of this kind were those that ought to be rewarded with pensions. He had as much dislike as most men to the Pension-list, but there were still some names which it gave him pleasure to see, and he would mention in particular that of Admiral Rodney.
Sir Robert Inglisregretted, that he felt himself called upon to make any opposition to a Motion of this kind, nor should he do so were it not that it involved a principle. He was not satisfied with the part taken by the Government in this business. If Captain Ross were in truth deserving of a reward it was the duty of Government to come forward and propose it. The Motion seemed, as it now stood, to be the act of a private individual. It was true, indeed, that the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) said that the Government concurred in the proposition; but in place of giving to the Crown the grace and favour of such a proposal, the noble Lord admitted a private individual in no way connected with the naval service, to bring it forward. This, however, might be considered a mere matter of form; but it involved an important principle. A person who wore the King's uniform should not apply for reward through a private individual. He should expect his reward from the public at the recommendation of the Sovereign. During the whole time of his absence on this expedition Captain Ross was receiving half-pay as Post Captain in the navy. He must, therefore, be considered as still in the public service. A Motion of this kind should not be thrown out to be scrambled for in the House. It should have been brought forward officially by one of his Majesty's Ministers. The House had no means of knowing what were the merits of Captain Ross, or what he had done. Perhaps his right hon. friend (Sir James Graham), being at the head of the Admiralty, and having, of course, seen his papers, was the only person who could tell what he had done. Reference had been made to a voyage of Captain Ross in 1818. This voyage was
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undertaken, not as a private speculator, but at the King's expense. After that voyage, undertaken in company with Captain Parry, without consulting that officer or without his consent, Captain Ross announced that he had discovered certain mountains, to which he gave the name of the Croker mountains. Now the truth was, that such mountains did not exist, for Captain Parry subsequently sailed over these very mountains, at least over that part where they were said by Captain Ross to be situated. Captain Ross's last visit was as much for the recovery of his own character as for the discovery of the North Pole. He had as yet to learn that Captain Ross had gone westwards by ten degrees, or to the north by five degrees, as far as Captain Parry; and as the latter had received no reward for his services, he could not see what especial claim the former had to a parliamentary grant. He should, therefore, meet the Motion by a direct negative.
Lord Althorpwas inclined to believe that the hon. Baronet correctly explained the motives which induced Captain Ross to undertake his expedition, when he said it was for the recovery of his own reputation, and it was owing to his Majesty's Government entertaining that opinion that they had declined coming forward to propose a grant for the purpose of rewarding him. It might then be asked why in such a case they had recommended the Crown to consent to the presental of Captain Ross's petition? To such a question, supposing it to be asked, he (Lord Althorp) would reply, that, considering the feeling of the country to be in favour of rewarding Captain Ross, his Majesty's Ministers would have been acting a most ungracious part had they, by recommending the Crown not to consent to the presenting, of the Petition, prevented a discussion of the subject in the House of Commons. Although, however, he thought the Government would not have been justified in recommending the grant to the House on the ground that the expedition was not undertaken by order of his Majesty's Government, he was disposed as an individual Member of that House to say that, considering the feelings of the country, they would be perfectly justified in acceding to the Motion; and such being his opinion, he was prepared, in the result of a division, to give it his support.
Sir Edward Codringtonsaid, he would give his cordial support to the Motion.
Mr. O'Connellthought, that the grant proposed was an exceedingly stingy one, and ought to have been much greater.
Mr. Aaron Chapmanwas of opinion that in a commercial point of view Captain Ross's services were well worth the grant proposed. He regretted it was so small in amount.
Mr. George Frederick Youngthought, that the second person in command of the expedition was quite as much entitled to reward as Captain Ross, and with a view of enabling his Majesty to bestow on him such reward, he begged to move as an Amendment that, instead of 5,000 l., a sum of 7,500 l. be granted, on the understanding that the difference should be paid to Commander Ross.
Sir Robert Peelwished the House clearly to ascertain the real grounds on which they were about, as he now believed they were, to bestow a grant upon Captain Ross. Was it in consideration of his services, or out of respect for his character and admiration of that chivalrous spirit he was alleged to have manifested? If in consideration of his services, he thought they should have been previously laid in detail before the House, so that they might know exactly what they were. On the other hand, if the vote was to be agreed to out of respect for the character of Captain Ross, and admiration of his chivalry, he feared there would be many equally strong claims for similar grants. He thought that the seamen and others who had shared the dangers of the expedition with Captain Ross ought to have shared the reward, and in order to have clearly ascertained what those actual services were, he regretted much the hon. and learned Member had not moved for a Committee of Inquiry instead of at once proposing a grant of money. This would have relieved them from the dangerous precedent which he feared they were about establishing by adopting the course proposed by the hon. and learned Member.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that as an individual Member of the House he would support the vote, and he would do so on the ground that every individual composing the expedition, with the single exception of Captain Ross, had already been rewarded for their services by the Admiralty. To the seamen the Admiralty had
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allotted double pay for the whole time they were employed; while every officer, with the single exception of Captain Ross, had received promotion in some shape or other. That the services of Captain Ross did not deserve to pass unrewarded, every one he thought, must admit; and as the Admiralty had no power to bestow such reward, he trusted the House would accede to the Motion.
Mr. Aglionbythought it would be far preferable to refer the matter to a Select Committee. The House would then see for what services they were voting, and would regulate the amount of their vote accordingly.
Sir Henry Hardingeagreed with the hon. and, learned Member, and, as an officer, considered that Captain Ross would be more honoured by having his case brought before a Committee than he would be by any vote or grant they might come to in his favour at that hour, (two o'clock in the morning). As to the men that served under the gallant Captain, they had only had their bare bargain; and he would say in the name of the sailors in his Majesty's service, that these seamen were as well entitled to be rewarded as Captain Ross himself. He thought that his hon. and learned friend who moved the Resolution, would do more justice to Captain Ross, and his officers and crew, by altering his Motion for a grant of 5,000 l. to one referring the matter to a Select Committee. He felt certain, that no Gentleman who might be on that Committee would alter the grant to a less sum than 5,000 l.
Lord Sandonbegged the hon. and learned Gentleman to submit the case to a Select Committee, since in that way he would best consult the feelings of the gallant Captain.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusson, said, that he should be extremely unwilling to resist the inclinations of the House. He was most anxious that the services of Captain Ross should be better understood by the House, though he thought that he had already fully explained to them the great services the gallant Captain had rendered to geographical science in solving one great question that had hitherto been undecided. Under the present circumstances he had no objection to withdraw his Motion in favour of a Committee, and he should, therefore, when the Speaker resumed the Chair, give notice of a Motion

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for having the matter referred to a Select Committee.
The House resumed; the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a third time:—North-American Postage.
Petitions presented. By Lords HOWE, BEXLEY, and WYNFORD, from several Places,—for Protection to the Established Church.—By the same NOBLE LORDS, by Lord GREY, and the Bishop of BATH and WELLS, from several Places,—for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By the Duke of NORFOLK, from the Dissenters of two Places, for Relief.—By the Earl of MORLEY, from the Eastern Division of the County of Cornwall, against Tithes.—By Earl GREY, from the Hand-loom Weavers of Glasgow, &c., for a Board of Trade, and for Relief.—By the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Irvine, &c., against the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Frensham, for Renewing the Labour-Rate Act.—By Earls CAWDOR, GREY, and DURHAM, and by Lord DACRE, from a Number of Places, for Relief to the Dissenters.

APPEALS IN THE HOUSE OF PEERS.
Lord Ellenborough, in rising to move the adjournment of the House, would take the opportunity of asking the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack for some explanation with respect to the very unusual state of the judicial business which was waiting for their Lordships' decision. He believed, that it had been the almost invariable custom to proceed with appeals as soon as Parliament had assembled; forty days, however, had now elapsed, and nothing had, in that respect, been done. The number of appeals at present amounted to 140, a larger arrear than had occurred in any year since 1830. Under these circumstances, he hoped that some satisfactory explanation would be given of this very unusual and very uncommon delay in the judicial business, which was, in his opinion, as improper as it was unusual.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he was exceedingly obliged to the noble Baron for giving him an opportunity of offering to their Lordships an explanation on the point to which the noble Baron had referred. The noble Baron had stated, that no appeals had been heard in the present Session, and that the usual course of that House had been not to let so late a period pass by without attending to that branch of business. Perhaps the noble Baron would pardon him, when he said, that this circumstance did not arise from any want of a disposition on his part, to apply himself to the performance of that particular duty; and, he believed that, after he had explained, the noble Baron would himself admit, that he had not been idle during those forty days to which the noble Baron had referred. He believed, that such would prove to be the fact, if the noble Baron inquired into the subject, provided he made his inquiry in a quarter where any knowledge whatever on this point was to be found, and where those who possessed that knowledge were willing to impart it plainly and fairly. Such, he was certain, would be the result, if application were made in any office where such knowledge existed, and where also a disposition was entertained to tell the noble Baron the truth. He was here supposing, that the parties applied to had both the will and the power to do that which was just and proper, and if they had, then the noble Lord would find, from their statement, that during the whole of those forty days, excepting Sundays, he had been employed, he would boldly venture to say, for a greater number of hours than any one of his predecessors, during a similar period, in the administration of justice, be that predecessor who he might. On that point he challenged comparison, and he demanded inquiry. During those forty days he persisted in getting through most important business in the Court of Chancery, and it was a melancholy, an undeniable truth, that he could not be in two places at once. He had sat in the Court of Chancery, during those forty days, seven, and sometimes (not unfrequently either) eight, hours a-day. He never had sat during that time for so little a space as six hours, except upon two days, when he attended upon his Majesty, and one of those days was, when the Recorder's Report was presented. He never threw away time. He never absented himself from

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his court, except when it was absolutely necessary. Even on her Majesty's birthday he did not make an exception. On that occasion he might, following the example of some of his predecessors, who did not open the court at all on that day, have suspended the performance of his duties. He did no such thing, but sat in the Court of Chancery on that day from ten till two o'clock. With that exception, he had, on every one of those forty days (Sundays excluded), sat never less than six hours, and he had sat sometimes eight hours, and he was never in court one minute later than ten o'clock. On the score, therefore, of a proper and industrious attention to his duties, his conscience entirely acquitted him. He would not trouble their Lordships by recapitulating what he afterwards had to do at night; but, if the noble Baron would move (and he would gladly second the Motion) for a return of the number of cases which he had disposed of in the time mentioned, and for an account of the number of cases in arrear, and now standing over for judgment, then it would be made apparent that his time had not been idly or unprofitably spent. He believed, if such a return were produced, it would be found, that with one exception, all the cases now standing for judgment were those which had been heard during the last week. If the noble Baron would extend his inquiry over the whole period of his holding the seals, and ask for the number of cases which he had tried, and the number of motions which he had despatched in that time, he should feel greatly obliged to him; for he had heard, with much astonishment, that it had been said, that, since he was in office, he had only decided thirty-two cases, while the Vice-Chancellor had got through 900, and the Master of the Rolls had adjudicated in he knew not how many instances. But those who made such charges ought, in the first instance, to apply to persons who knew something of the subject, and who, moreover, were willing to tell, without exaggeration, what they knew. Those who put forward such statements derived their information either from ignorant persons, or from those who were wilfully practising on their credulity. Much was said about the small number of original cases decided in the Court of Chancery; but those who indulged in such observations forgot the number of appeals decided in that Court. Since the
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establishment of the Vice-Chancellor's Court, in 1813, the Court of Chancery had become, in a great measure, a Court of Appeal from other jurisdictions. He was astonished, considering all the circumstances, when it was stated, that he had decided thirty-two cases. If he had been asked the question, he should have been inclined to think that he had not decided half-a-dozen of cases. For there was not a lad who had been six months in a Chancery barrister's office who did not know that the Court of Chancery had become, a Court of Appeals, of re-hearings, and of motions. From the time that Lord Eldon brought in his Bill, he repeated, the Court of Chancery had become a Court of Appeal, of re-hearings, and of motions, and not of original causes. But was the deciding upon appeals nothing? Did their Lordships do any thing else but decide appeals; and was it not just as rational to reproach their Lordships as to reproach him with not hearing original causes? But their Lordships, he must remark too, were enabled, by receiving judicial assistance from various quarters, to go through a considerable number of appeals; but the Court of Chancery had no such resource; and the business of Chancery stood stock still immediately the head of the Court left it, either to hear appeals in that House, or to attend to any other business. It was therefore the bounden duty of whoever held the Great Seal to take care, in the first instance, that the business of the Court of Chancery was not suffered to stand still,—which, after all, was the great point. If he wanted any authority in support of that proposition, he thought the most unquestionable authority would be the advice solemnly tendered in that place by the noble Earl who had so long presided in the Court of Chancery. That noble Earl had emphatically said to his (Lord Brougham's) predecessor, that so long as he was Chancellor, he should, above all things, never forget that the place, more than any other, in which he should be found, t was the Court of Chancery. With respect to his duties in that House, he must say, that other noble Lords had received assistance which had been denied to him. He had the help of a noble and learned Lord (Lord Wynford) which was the more valuable, because it was, on all occasions, tendered to him with the greatest possible kindness and good-will. The assistance of that noble and learned Lord was indeed

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invaluable to any individual who was called upon to pronounce judicial decisions in that House. But, with that exception, he certainly had not received the same assistance of which his predecessors had availed themselves. He recollected when, for nearly half-a-year, the late Chief Baron (Baron Alexander) had sat in that House for the then Chancellor, because his presence was not required in the Court of Exchequer. That, however, no longer was the case; for his noble and learned friend, the present Chief Baron, had stated, that the business of the Court of Exchequer had so greatly increased as to equal that of the Court of King's Bench. That was the fact; and the consequence was, that the business of the Court demanded the undivided attention of the noble and learned Lord. It was all very well to receive assistance from the Court of Exchequer when the Judges of that Court only sat down to get up again, like a covey of partridges in the field, as was the saying in Westminster Hall; but the case was now altered; the business of that Court had been very much extended; and the consequence was, that he could derive no assistance from that source. Again, he remembered that the Master of the Rolls formerly sat in that House for a great part of the Session as Deputy Speaker, and gave his utmost attention to their Lordships' judicial proceedings. That assistance he was deprived of, because the Master of the Rolls no longer confined himself to evening sittings. For the despatch of business in his own Court, that learned individual now sat in the morning, so that he could receive no assistance from him. During one Session, he recollected that Lord Redesdale and Lord Gifford had assisted in deciding appeals in that House; and certainly a great mass of judicial business had been gone through in that Session. At that time the Lord Chancellor was enabled to avail himself of great and powerful assistance, which was not accessible to him, and he had stated very plainly how and why. But, let it not be supposed that, though he was more unfavourably situated than his predecessors, he would ever relax in those attempts which he had made, and which he would still endeavour to make, for the purpose of keeping down the judicial business in that House. He would, with their Lordships' assistance, continue to persevere; and, perhaps, he might be
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permitted to say, that, notwithstanding the disadvantages that were opposed to him, he had, since he took the Great Seal, gone through a very large mass of judicial business in that House. Not certainly in any one year so great a portion of business as had been gone through in the year to which he had already alluded, when Lord Gifford sat as deputy to Lord Eldon; but still, leaving that great year out of the calculation, he would fearlessly state, that in the first year in which he had occupied the woolsack, he had transacted very nearly as much business. There might not have been heard quite the same number of cases, but still, he believed, there was very little difference. He mentioned this as an extraordinary circumstance, because, in the year to which he had alluded, Lord Gifford sat day after day. He was at that time Master of the Rolls; and, as he only sat in the evening, he had nothing else to do in the forepart of the day. In the first year of his holding office, he had heard, in the Court of Chancery, double the number of causes that had been heard in any one preceding year. On that point he challenged investigation. Let the papers be produced, and it would be found, that, of appeals and rehearings, he had disposed of upwards of 100 in that year. In the same year he had decided in that House, without any assistance, except upon two days, when his noble and learned friend sat in his place, a greater portion of business than was ever heard in their Lordships' House, with the exception of that particular year when Lord Gifford gave himself up almost exclusively to the appeals, which were argued before their Lordships. He must say, therefore, that there was no man against whom less cause of complaint existed, with respect to the attentive and sedulous discharge of his duties, than the individual who then addressed their Lordships. With respect to this lapse of forty days, to which the noble Baron had alluded, he must observe, that it would have been attended with the greatest possible inconvenience to the Court of Chancery, not only to those who practised there, but to the suitors before their Lordships' House, if their Lordships had at once gone on hearing causes, instead of postponing those hearings for a short time. He thought he could, in five minutes, prove to any noble Lord, that in proceeding as he had done, he had taken the wiser and the better course. There

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were two branches of judicial business—the one consisted of Scotch appeals, which were generally very intricate; the other consisted of English and Irish appeals. With respect to Scotch appeals, the case stood exactly thus:—He had heard so many Scotch appeals in the last Session, in the Session before, and in the first Session that he held the Great Seal, as rendered it necessary to stop at the end of the Session of 1833. They were getting on too fast with the Appeal-list, and the parties, in many instances, were not ready. Such was the fact. He offered to sit for three or four days, to proceed with these appeals; but the parties were not ready. They were not aware that such great progress had been made; they were, in truth, overtaken, and the consequence was, that, when called on, the parties were not prepared to proceed. Now, it was a question with many judges, whether it was expedient to press so closely upon the Appeal-list; and he would state on what foundation that doubt rested. When a party had lost, his cause in court, he frequently worked himself up into the belief, that that cause was nevertheless a good one; his advocate, of course, would contend that the argument which he had adduced was irresistible, and, in that frame of mind, the first thing that struck the defeated party was to lodge an appeal. The advocate said, "My argument was perfectly right; therefore, I advise you to appeal at once." The client responded, "I am sure what you assert is the fact; and my idea is, that we ought to appeal." Whereon an appeal was rashly proceeded with, and considerable expense was incurred. But it did not follow, that after six or eight months were given to the client to reflect—it did not follow that, after a considerable time was allowed to the counsel to reconsider his opinion, and to consult men learned in the profession on the subject—it did not follow, under these circumstances, that the party would persist in going forward; and, indeed, nothing was more common than for a certain number of appeals to be dropped after a given time. But, if the Court of Appeal pressed forward before the parties had time to cool and come to their senses on the subject, those appeals, that otherwise might have come to nothing, would he forced on, to the great delay of other business, to the great inconvenience of the Court, and to the great expense of par-
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ties, who, if you had not gone on so quick, would not have proceeded further than to lodge an appeal. Therefore, he had purposely abstained from proceeding with the Scotch appeals. Instead of going out of town for a few days, as he had done in the last recess, if he had remained, he could have easily disposed of all those Scotch appeals which he had purposely abstained from taking, and left, with respect to them, no arrear at all; but, for the reason which he had stated, he deemed it advisable not to press them forward. On the 4th of February, the Parliament met, which was not an immaterial circumstance with respect to the hearing of English and Irish appeals. That was out of term, which concluded on the 25th of January. Out of term, the Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor sat in Lincoln's-inn, and the Master of the Rolls in Chancery-lane. These courts absorbed all the Chancery practitioners, to whom the suitors in English and Irish appeals necessarily resorted for assistance. It was physically impossible, with respect, at least, to the leaders in the causes, that their assistance could be obtained in appeal cases at Westminster, when their duties detained them in distant courts. What, then, was the necessary result of the course which had been adopted? Why, it was manifest, that it was a most convenient arrangement, not only for the Bar, but for the suitors, that the latter should have the benefit of the talents and experience of those professional men, whose services they would otherwise be deprived of. It was evidently an advantage that he should go on sitting at Lincoln's-inn without losing one single minute of those forty and odd days, and thus keeping down the Chancery arrear, if such it could be called, for he believed he could dispose of all the causes in a week, and it should be observed, that those which constituted the apparent arrear were the growth of only the last fortnight. He contended, that with respect to the Scotch appeals he had acted wisely in stopping, and not proceeding in too rapid a course. With respect to the English and Irish appeals, he thought it would be much better for the suitors, that some little delay should take place, rather than they should be deprived of the assistance of able men. On the 15th of April next, all the branches of Chancery would be open, and transacting business under the same roof, that of

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Westminster-hall, and the suitors could then avail themselves of the talents of those eminent professional men, of which they would otherwise be deprived. Was not this, he would ask, a fair way of looking at the subject? Was not this the course which the convenience of the suitor made it paramount for him to adopt? He was very sure, that more would ultimately be done by applying themselves, for a certain number of consecutive days, to the hearing of appeals, than if they spread their sittings over several weeks. Suppose they sat one day or two in the course of a week to hear appeals, and continued those sittings during six weeks, would any one believe, that they would get through the same extent of business, as if they took three days in each week in succession, or as if they sat for the entire number of days without intermission? If they sat de die in diem for those six days, they would, he was convinced, despatch, he would not say six times as much business, but he was perfectly sure, that they would get through at least twice as much, and at a far less expense than if their six days' sittings were scattered over six weeks. If he had been aware, that this subject would have been brought forward, he would have collected one or two other facts which would have placed the subject in a still clearer point of view. He should now say one word upon another subject. There were said to be many defects in the system of appeals in that House. One defect of the system especially was, that while the whole of their Lordships were supposed to sit to hear appeals in that House, they did in fact generally devolve the duty on those of their number who happened to be professional men. The consequence of this was, that he, who was the Judge in the Court of Chancery, sat in this House afterwards, and heard the appeal from his own judgment. This was highly inconvenient—it was keeping the word of promise to the ear, but breaking it to the judgment; for the appeal was in reality a re-hearing before the same Judge who had decided in the Court below. To avoid this as much as possible, the noble and learned Earl, who had held the Great Seal for so many years had constantly had recourse to the assistance of a noble Lord who had been Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Lord Redesdale) a Judge scarcely inferior to himself in the extent of his learn-
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ing. In the same manner, he now desired to have the assistance of an Equity Judge. He had had that assistance from his noble and learned friend, (Lord Plunkett) while that noble and learned Lord was in England during the preceding Session; and accordingly, when his noble and learned friend had been here, he had betaken himself to hear English and Irish appeals. It so happened, however, that this year he could not possibly have the assistance of that noble and learned Lord. The instant he had it; and if he had it not soon, he should nor longer delay, but should be obliged to undergo the task of sitting; but he believed, that their Lordships would rather think that he had good reason to wish to postpone the hearing of English and Irish appeals in Equity cases, till he could have the assistance of his noble and learned friend. He was aware, that he had the power to hear them, and to say, as some of his predecessors had done, "I see no reason to change the opinion I entertained in the Court of Chancery; and I affirm the decree with costs." He knew he had such a power; but there were two objections to it: the one was, that justice should be done in such a way, that the suitor ought to be satisfied with it; and the other was, that justice should be done in such wise that the suitor may be satisfied, if it be possible. Under these circumstances he had given notice, that he should not adjourn from the Court of Chancery. He had had a proper and most respectful, but still urgent representation made to him on the subject. He had said, that the vacation would be longer, and that it would be better to sit now than in the vacation; but their answer was, that the course of that Court had been to adjourn at this time; that men made their arrangements upon it; that their health required that there should be some remission of labour; and he felt the force of these arguments, and that he had no right to call on Gentlemen to exhaust themselves; and therefore he had said, that he would make arrangements to preclude the necessity of this sitting. The consequence of this would be, that the Court of Chancery would rise on Thursday before Good Friday, and not sit again till the Monday or Tuesday of the week after next. Their Lordships would adjourn over Good Friday, and sit the whole of the Easter week, a course which they pursued three years

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ago. The consequence of this would be, that sitting during that time, and having an arrangement by which that sitting could be continued during the rest of that period, the whole of the time might be occupied up to the first day of Term. So that before Easter Term, there would have been a greater number of sittings, and a disposal of judicial business in that House, not to mention the Court of Chancery, than there ever had been at any one time before.
Lord Wynfordreferred to the Lord Chancellor's statement respecting the impropriety of pressing too closely upon the appeals, and observed, that on that point he totally dissented from the noble and learned Lord; for he believed, that the principle applicable to the cases of appeals was very different from that supposed by the noble and learned Lord. The great cause of appeals, the great object in view in making them, generally, was the delay that must take place before the judgment could be carried into execution. If that reason were taken away, and it would be taken away by pressing closely upon the list of appeals, there would not be so many of them brought; for the reason of bringing them—the advantage of delay—would then be at an end. He begged to confine his observations, however, to Scotch Appeals only. This remark, however, he would make with regard to the appellant jurisdiction, that however objectionable it might be for a Judge to review his own decision, suitors would go to that House unless they were actually prohibited. They might establish Courts of appellate jurisdiction in Westminster Hall; but so long as that House retained the power of ultimate decision, so long would suitors never be satisfied till they obtained that ultimate decision.
Lord Ellenboroughfelt it would be but just to himself, as well as the noble and learned Lord, to state the impression which the information which he had just conveyed had produced upon him. It struck him, that if the reason assigned by the noble and learned Lord for not hearing appeal cases up to the present period of the Session was a valid one, it must be considered an equally valid reason for his adopting a precisely similar course in all future Sessions. At all events, as far as the English and Irish Appeals were concerned the reason so assigned would hold good, for it was ob-
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vious it would be quite as inconvenient for Counsel to attend English and Irish Appeals before Easter, in all future years, as it was stated by the noble and learned Lord to be in the present. Indeed, if the statement of the noble and learned Lord was to be admitted as a valid explanation of the circumstance, that no appeal case had as yet been heard, he thought that the English and Irish suitors should at once be informed, that in future years no English and Irish Appeals could be heard until after the 15th of April, as by that means they would be saved a great deal of unnecessary anxiety. With respect to Scotch appeals, the case, he apprehended, was nearly similar, and if so, he thought it should likewise be at once intimated to the Scotch solicitors, that in future the House would attend to no Scotch appeal until after Easter. He confessed he was so far satisfied by the noble and learned Lord's statement, as to admit, that it would he inconvenient to proceed with English and Irish appeals, while Counsel were engaged attending the Equity Courts in Lincoln's-inn-Fields; but at the same time he was bound to say he was not altogether so satisfied with the reasons which the noble and learned lord had assigned for not having hitherto heard Scotch appeals. The noble and learned Lord had commented upon the fact, that in some few appeals called on towards the end of the last Session, the solicitors were not prepared to proceed; but, considering the very unusual length of the last Session, he put it to the House to say whether that circumstance was so very surprising? But surely it was not to be fairly inferred, that because in the month of July or August last, owing to peculiar circumstances, those solicitors were unprepared to go on with their causes, they must have been unprepared in the month of February, when the present Session of Parliament commenced. He could, therefore, see no reason why those causes had not been heard by the noble and learned Lord at the usual and fitting period. Again, he confessed he could see no reason why the Scotch lawyers engaged in Scotch causes should not wish to enjoy the Easter recess, as well as their English brethren. The noble and learned Lord bad entered into a very lengthened statement relative to the quantity of business he had gone through since he first got possession of the Seals; but he (Lord

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Ellenborough) was still at a loss to know what observation of his had called for that statement. He never inquired to the noble Lord, that he was an idle man; he never said, that the noble Lord had not been employed in the Court or Chancery during all the time which, in his opinion, ought to have been devoted to the hearing of appeal cases; be never meant to insinuate that the noble Lord had been indulging in relaxation while he ought to have been busy. The utmost he had done, and he would maintain he was perfectly justified in so doing, was to express an opinion, that as the noble Lord, was Speaker of their House they had a fair claim to some portion of his time; and, at the same time, to inquire the reason of his absence, that absence being a total deviation from the usual practice. He knew well, that the noble and learned Lord had been ever since the commencement of the present Session, daily employed in the Court of Chancery; and not only, dint he was employed hearing causes in Court throughout the day, but that he was often obliged to devote his nights in preparing his judgments. He did not in the least doubt the noble and learned Lord's assiduity; but he wished to know, and he would again say he had a right to desire the information, why their Lordships and the suitors of their Lordships' Court were not to derive the benefit of some portion, however small, of that assiduity.
The Lord Chancellorrepeated what he had before stated, that he did not take the noble Lord's interference in this matter in bad part. Indeed, he rather thanked the noble Lord for bringing the subject under their Lordships' notice. He complained not of the noble Lord's manner; there was nothing discourteous about it, inasmuch as he had not meant to insinuate, as he certainly had not openly stated, that he (the Lord Chancellor) was an idle man. But with respect to the Scotch appeals, the noble Baron seemed to have entirely forgotten his (the Lord Chancellor's) statement, when he said, that this was the first time of a Chancellor not sitting in the House of Lords before Easter. He (the Lord Chancellor) had already stated, that in one instance Lord Eldon did not sit judicially in that House once in the whole year, Lord Gifford having attended in his place; and that Lord Lyndhurst was absent for half a-year, during which
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period Sir John Leach, and Chief Baron Alexander sat for the purpose of hearing appeals. He wished their Lordships to bear in mind, that at the time of the absence of the noble and learned Lords just mentioned, the arrears were pressing; and that, at the present moment there were actually no arrears of Scotch appeals. It was a fact, that at the end of last Session he was proceeding with appeals entered at the commencement of the same Session; he was hearing in July appeals entered on the January preceding; and he only stopped for the reason he had already explained. But he was perfectly willing that the Scotch appeals should be proceeded with; and he begged the Scotch suitors and solicitors to attend to what he was about to say. He was now warned, that there was a complaint, that the Scotch appeals were not heard. He would take care, then, that they should be heard, but the parties roust be ready when called upon, and must not quarrel with the Judge that heard them. His noble and learned friend (Lord Wynford), who had just quitted the House, being always prepared and willing to do his duty in that place, would be ready to hear them; and the Scotch suitors, who complained that the appeals were not heard before Easter, might be assured that they would henceforward be brought on. But he was not bound to have arrears in the Court of Chancery for their pleasure; and he would not. They must rest satisfied with such judicial assistance as his noble and learned friend, the late Chief Justice of the Common Pleas would give them, no doubt, with perfect alacrity; and he hoped they would, as he knew they ought to receive it with thankfulness. Here, then, was an end of that complaint. Was he to be told that he was bound to give up the business of the Court of Chancery for the purpose of hearing Scotch appeals? He denied that he was. It was enough for him, being importuned on the subject, to say, that the business should be done in his absence. This promise he now gave; the appeals should be heard; but he did not bind himself to hear them. Let the parties look to that. He knew it would be exceedingly convenient for some persons if he were to sit in that House hearing Scotch appeals, and allow the business of the Court of Chancery to get into arrear. Then the complaint would be, that the Court of Chancery was

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neglected, for the purpose of despatching Scotch appeals in the House of Lords. This was not altogether an imaginary charge; it was one which had already been made against him. It had been said, that the Scotch business gave him no trouble; that he could hear Scotch appeals easily; but that it was much more laborious and difficult for him to dispose of English suits in the Court of Chancery; and that, therefore, he preferred sitting in the House of Lords to decide the Scotch appeals. He was determined, that that charge should not be brought against him again; and, though by taking the Scotch business himself, he might put an end to all complaints about arrears, raised in many instances by parties irritated because their own cases were not taken out of the proper turn, he still should not do so, either to gratify them or those other parties who wished for nothing better than an opportunity of attacking him, as formerly, for neglecting his duties in the Court of Chancery, and who hated nothing so much as the disagreeable fact—the non-existence of arrears.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that as the noble and learned Lord had thrown out an obscure intimation, somewhat in the nature of a menace, of the course to be adopted with respect to Scotch business, it would be very important that the parties interested in Scotch appeals should distinctly understand what the noble and learned Lord's intentions were. Did he mean to hear the Scotch appeals presented this year at the end of the Session, if it should be sufficiently prolonged, or before Easter in the next year?
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he should answer the noble Lord's inquiry shortly, plainly, and distinctly. He had said nothing about the end of the Session, but he intended to do exactly what his predecessors hail done before him, and what one of them had preached by way of advice, and practised by way of example—namely, to sit in the Court of Chancery, and not in the House of Lords, and to leave his noble and learned friend to hear appeals presented to their Lordships.
Lord Ellenboroughthought it was impossible to give the Scotch suitors a more indistinct answer.
The Lord Chancellor: They will understand it well enough.
The Conversation was dropped.