Sitting of 7 July 1834

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Four Courts, Dublin; and Turnpike Acts Continuance (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By Mr. WILLIAM DUNCOMBE, Mr. MILES, Mr. WILBRAHAM, and Earl JERMYN, from Spilsby, and other Places,—for Support to the Church of England.—By Mr. PELHAM, from Horncastle, against the Church Rates Bill.—By Mr. MILES, from Congressbury; and by Mr. F. PALMER, from Reading,—against the Amendment of the Sale of Beer Act.—By Mr. DUGDALE, from Tamworth, for the issue of 1l. Notes.—By Mr. DUGDALE, Mr. PELHAM, Mr. WILLIAM DUNCOMBE, Lord ROBERT MANNERS, and Mr. HALFORD, from several Places,—for Relief to the Agriculturists—By Mr. H. MAXWELL, and Mr. LEFROY, from several Places in Ireland,—in favour of the Established Church of Ireland.—By Mr. R. STEUART, from Haddington, against the Bankrupts (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. DAVENPORT, from Wesleyans at Burslem, for Relief to the Dissenters, and for a General Registration; and by Mr. PELHAM, from Manufacturers at Cleckeaton, for the Repeal of Duty on Olive Oil; and from Lincoln, for the Removal of all Restrictions on Silver payments.

SUPPRESSION OF DISTURBANCES— (IRELAND).
Lord Althorpbrought up documents indorsed "Papers relating to the state of Ireland." In moving, that they be printed, his Lordship said, that it was due to his right hon. friend, the Secretary for Ireland, (Mr. Littleton), to state, that in the communication he had had with the hon. and learned member for Dublin, (Mr. O'Connell) he had good grounds for saying, that the question regarding the insertion of certain clauses in the Coercion Bill was still under the consideration of the Cabinet. He had also good grounds for expressing his hope, that those clauses would not be inserted in it; but he had no reason whatever to state, and he (Lord Althorp) believed the hon. Member had not stated, that the opinion of Ministers had been made up for

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the omission of those clauses; because he had had no communication with his noble friend at the head of the Government, and had no reason to believe, that his noble friend had a doubt as to the necessity of them. With respect to the communication itself, he should not be inclined himself to say, that there was any indiscretion on the part of the Secretary for Ireland in informing the hon. and learned member for Dublin, that the question was not decided, and in cautioning him not to commit himself until he knew what was the intention of Government. As to any further communication between them, upon that he (Lord Althorp) would make no observation. His right hon. friend (Mr. Littleton) had said what he thought necessary on the subject, and he should, therefore, add nothing. It was likewise due to his right hon. friend to mention, that on Saturday he tendered the resignation of his office; but he still held it at the request of Lord Grey. Ministers were, of course, anxious that he should continue in the situation he occupied; they valued the assistance he had given much too highly to be willing to lose it. He moved, that the papers be printed.
Mr. Humewas extremely happy to hear, that his right hon. friend the Secretary for Ireland had been warranted in what he had said. He was not present at the time, for the matter was concluded just after he entered the House; but he was perfectly confident that his right hon. friend would stand clear in the eyes of Parliament and of the country. He was sure that his right hon. friend had intended it as an act of kindness towards the hon. and learned member for Dublin, meaning, if possible, to allay the irritation of his mind at the renewal of the Coercion Bill. He must say, however, that he regretted that any Cabinet should exist apparently so indecisive and so uncertain as to the course it meant to adopt, as to place a member of the Government in the situation in which his right hon. friend had been placed a few nights ago. He had heard with great surprise, that the renewal of the Coercion Bill was the measure of one individual in the Government, who would have resigned his situation in the Councils of his Majesty had the other members of the Cabinet not concurred with him. This might or might not be true; but he had heard, that it was entirely the act of Lord Grey, and he had
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alluded to the report in order to give the noble Lord opposite an opportunity of contradicting it if it were unfounded. He referred merely to the current opinion out of doors. He regretted, that Ministers went on from day to day finding time to introduce Coercion Bills, but not to fulfil any of their pledges. He would now repeat the question he had asked five times before, whether the Local Courts Bill was, or was not, to be brought forward in the present Session? That among many other measures really beneficial, was likely to be passed by, for the only measure which Ministers seemed disposed to carry through was the Coercion Bill. As far as he could see, it was the only measure, and it was so contrary to every principle on which the House ought to act, that he believed no man would have consented to support the present Government if he had not felt. confident, that, instead of such a measure, plans calculated to allay irritation and excitement, and to render the presence of so large a number of military in Ireland unnecessary, would have been adopted. Ireland ought not to be treated as a conquered country, but as a part of the empire having equal laws and equal privileges with the other parts of the empire. He hoped that the papers just laid upon the Table would make out sufficient grounds on which to rest the renewal of the Coercion Bill, at a time when it was anticipated by many that the first measure of the kind would also have been the last.
Lord Althorp: As to the rumour that the noble Earl at the head of the Government had alone been in favour of the Coercion Bill, such statements could only be matters of mere surmise, inasmuch as the individual opinions of members of the Cabinet were, of course, never divulged: it would, therefore, be quite inconsistent with his duty to give the House any information upon the point. When the subject came under discussion, Government would be bound to give adequate reasons, or the House would not adopt the Bill. He could not admit, that the only measure Ministers had endeavoured to carry, with regard to Ireland, was the Coercion Bill, and hon. Members present must be aware that others had been pressed forward. He was sorry to be obliged to answer, that it would not be possible to bring in the Local Courts Bill this Session.
Mr. Robinsonwould not make any

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commentary on what passed on the former night, but certain it was, that at one time the Government of Ireland was adverse to the renewal of the Coercion Bill. The noble Lord at the head of affairs had, however, stated, that it was brought in with the perfect concurrence of the noble Marquess; and he called upon Government, therefore, to state what had induced Lord Wellesley to change his opinion. Much stress had been laid by Ministers last year upon the opinion of Lord Anglesey, and he wished to know why a similar reliance was not to be placed on the opinion of Lord Wellesley? He wished to know whether it was true, that no longer ago than June last Lord Wellesley was adverse to the renewal of the Coercion Bill, though he had seen reason since to change his opinion?
Lord Althorpreplied, that it was certainly true, that discussion on the subject had taken place with the Irish Government; but he was now perfectly prepared to state, that the Coercion Bill was brought in with the entire concurrence of Lord Wellesley.
Mr. O'Connell: One thing was manifest—that the documents upon the Table ought not to be treated lightly, but deliberately. If the liberties of the Irish people were of any value to the House or to any portion of it, it would destroy the possibility of making a flippant observation upon a partial and particular view, without regarding the bearings of the whole case. He would not enter into bygone topics; his statement a few days ago did not, in fact, differ from that of the right hon. Gentleman, and they were both before the public. How far the statements made to him were correct, was now beyond controversy; and he would not allude to them further than to say, that they demonstrated that, up to a certain day, the Irish Government was decidedly hostile to certain clauses of the Bill, and that some members of the Cabinet were opposed to their renewal. The documents were now upon the Table: whether they were the same as had been presented to the other House, he did not know; but if they were the same, they would establish that, on the 18th of April, Lord Wellesley called for the Bill—anxiously solicited for it—although on the 20th of June, he objected to its renewal. He was now again it favour of it; and it was material to know what had induced him so rapidly to Change
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his opinion. On the 18th of April, he was for the Bill; on the 20th of June he was against it; and on the 5th or 7th of July he was once more in favour of it. Ought not this vacillation to be explained? With what indignation must the people of Ireland hear the echo of the cheers that resounded, when it was asserted, that Ministers had done nothing for Ireland but coerce her! Were the liberties of that country of so little value? Were the Irish such degraded slaves—were they so fallen below compassion, that though England and Scotland had their constitutional rights, Ireland was to have none? She was to have no liberty; she was only to have the Coercion Bill—the detested Coercion Bill! Were not the people of Ireland entitled to have the question considered, before the Coercion Bill was renewed? He turned to every part of the House, and appealed against this species of Administration. Was Ireland to be the laughing-stock of all Europe, and were the natives of that country to be dealt with as Ministers would not deal with the negro-slaves of the West Indies? They had not sent for one man to tell him one thing, and for another man to tell him another. He would not say that; but he would say, that they thought the liberties of Ireland of so little value, that they would give no explanation to justify their measures. In order to put the matter to the test, he meant to conclude with a Motion, that the papers just laid upon the Table he referred to a Select Committee. Would the House consent to adopt the Coercion Bill without, previous inquiry? Were Ministers to have it merely for asking? One of the principal newspaper supporters of Ministers —who supported them because they were well paid for it—on the very day of the last discussion on this measure, had taunted the people of France that they had relinquished the power of meeting, without even the show of resistance. Were not the people of Ireland to be permitted to establish that there was no ground for the renewal? He would endeavour to obtain some satisfactory evidence, if it could be procured, and not allow the House to act upon the information and letters of some paltry thief-takers and police officers. If he could not procure this, he would show the species of anti-Irish majority that existed in this House, which supported the Minister in doing

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nothing for Ireland. What had he done for Ireland in the present Session? What had he attempted? The Secretary for Ireland, on a former night, had talked of four measures; but as to the Reform Bill, Ireland had been insulted by the difference made in favour of England and Scotland, and to her detriment. The striking off of ten Bishops was nothing, and because it was nothing, he had voted against it. In the Vestry-cess, there was an abatement of 35,000 l. a-year—a mighty boon! but all that could be granted to Ireland. What had been done about tithes? The Bill was brought in in February, altered in March, and in June it was so utter a nondescript, that the Secretary at War was obliged to receive two or three promptings before he could speak of it. The much boasted Commission had not yet gone to the spot where its inquiries were to begin; but eight or ten Commissioners had been appointed, and that was all, and seemed to be thought enough. Yet the noble Lord talked of what had been done for Ireland this year. It was turning Ireland into contempt—it was laughing Ireland to scorn, when the noble Lord thus ventured to indulge himself. Ministers would think of nothing but Coercion—nothing but Coercion and delusion for Ireland. The people of Ireland could not fail to know it: they saw people keep their places, whether they were against or in favour of Coercion; and, in fact, that it was treated by Ministers as a matter of small moment. He hoped, however, that the House would not so treat it, and that it would not hesitate in acceding to his Motion for a Committee. He wanted no delay; he was ready to proceed instantly—to work day and night, but it was too late for Ministers to complain of delay when they had postponed the Bill till July. If the House had one particle of feeling for Ireland—one particle of that feeling so much vaunted, and which had been resounded from one end of the country to the other, if it had the slightest disposition to do justice to Ireland, Whig, Tory, Conservative, and Radical would all join in supporting the Motion for Inquiry. He called upon them all to demand evidence before they convicted his country. The least they could do would be to give Ireland a trial before they passed sentence upon her by passing the Coercion Bill.
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It was not enough for Ministers to throw their papers upon the Table. How, or when, or by whom they were concocted, he knew not; but he did know that they had changed their intentions, and that those who were once and recently opposed to it, were now in favour of the Bill. What new and strange events had occurred to produce this calamitous change? This of itself was worth inquiry, and he moved therefore "that the documents just presented be referred to a Select Committee, and that they report their opinion thereupon to the House."
Lord Althorpobserved, that the remark of the hon. member for Middlesex, that Ministers had done nothing, was not meant by him to apply particularly to Ireland. He (Lord Althorp) had not said, and had not intended to say, that any measures had been applied specifically to Ireland. With regard to the Motion, it was not his design to concede what was required since the papers upon the Table were such as Government thought would justify the course they proposed to pursue. lf, on consideration, it should appear to the House, that the documents did not warrant the renewal of the Coercion Bill, it would be rejected. Upon that test, Ministers were disposed to rest the measure, and, in justification of the renewal of the Coercion Bill, they laid the papers before the House. As to what might have occurred since the 18th of April, the proper time for stating the grounds of any change of opinion would be when the measure came regularly before the House: it would then be shown, that Ministers had not acted in the inconsistent manner which had been supposed. They had most cautiously and anxiously looked at the whole subject; they had duly considered every doubt suggested as to the extent of the measure, in order to ascertain if that extent were necessary; and he was sure, that the country would not blame them for hesitating as long as there was reason for hesitation.
Mr. Henry Grattansaid, that whatever uncertainty might have prevailed amongst the Ministers, certain it was, that the measure contemplated to be again renewed was most unconstitutional in its character and object; and he would venture to say, that in the annals of Parliamentary history, there was not an instance in which the liberties of a whole country were

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treated in so cavalier a mode as it was proposed to deal with the subject on the present occasion. Before the liberties and rights of the people of Ireland were again to he trampled upon, it would be but common justice that the documents brought up by the noble Lord, and on which he would seek to justify the course of policy the Government were pursuing, should be referred to a Select or even a Secret Committee. Why should the noble Lord object to the Motion of the hon. and learned member for Dublin; or why should he refuse to state his reasons for denying this Committee? Would the noble Lord elsewhere, or the noble Lord opposite, attempt to justify thus the taking away the liberties of a people without their being heard—without trial and without inquiry? What were the facts which furnished the only argument in favour of the Bill of last year? Why, the then existing state of agitation in that country; but the argument on that ground must now entirely fall. No plan could have been adopted by the Government better calculated to increase those dissensions which so long disturbed the peace and tranquillity of Ireland, than their present attempt to truckle to both parties. He knew, that in Ireland there were some men who now speculated upon the Prospects of civil commotion; but the people of Ireland would not be entrapped into any seditious proceeding, though he could tell the noble Lord what every man of spirit in that country would do—namely, that which he himself would do in the language of Lord Anglesey, he would "wait awhile." He concurred in the sentiment expressed by the right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth on a former occasion, that it would be much better for the two countries to be separated if they could not be kept united in the same bonds of liberty. He would add, that if the bonds of liberty were not to unite both nations, he, for one, should cry out, not for repeal, but for separation. The noble Lord opposite could not think, that the speeches emanating, from the Russell family could be thrown away upon a nation which had given birth to men whose blood was as pure as that of those whose ancestors had signed the Magna Charta, and who would deprecate and condemn that Act which would deprive a nation of its liberties at the will of one executive officer of the Government. Such, however, was the pre-
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sent instance of legislation, and than this there never was a more monstrous system of tyranny attempted to be practised in any country. But the people of Ireland, and the Representatives of that people, were told to be satisfied. He for one was not satisfied, and he should be a tyrant and a coward himself if he participated in the satisfaction to which he, in common with the Irish people, had been invited. The course proposed by the Government was most inconsistent, for it was clear, that the noble Lord who presided over Irish affairs had respectively been for, against, and now again was in favour of the re-enactment of the measure of last year, and it was equally clear, that the Cabinet had been, and was divided in its views. He then would ask, why the Legislature was not furnished with, or ought to be allowed the opportunity of obtaining for itself such information as would justify, or otherwise, the re-adoption of the measure upon which such varieties of opinion, and so many difficulties, had manifestly arisen. Upon the information of the noble Lord, the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, he entertained great doubts. The information had been obtained from police officers, for the noble Lord had never been further than the county of Wicklow since his appointment. The noble Lord knew personally nothing of the state of the country, and with respect to the sources from which the noble Lord's information was derived, he could state, that it had been his lot to examine many of the police officers in the county of Monaghan, and he had no reluctance in stating that he would not believe them upon their oaths. That they were undeserving of credit he should be able to prove when the debate upon the Bill came regularly before the House. He could also prove, that they had not possessed the courage to enforce the orders which were contained in the letters transmitted to them by the right hon. Gentleman (the late Secretary for the Colonies), at the time that right hon. Gentleman had filled the office of Secretary for Ireland. Was it to be supposed, that the Representatives of the Irish people could look patiently on and see measures involving the liberties of their country justified upon information acquired from such a source? Would it not be better to send the Irish Members back to tell their constituents that they had been sent to London to witness a complete farce in legislation? That would

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be to speak the truth. What had been as yet done for Ireland? Look at the number of petitions with reference to tithes which, up to the 2nd of May, had been presented to the House; and what had been the answer? The appointment of a Commission constituted of individuals who knew nothing of Ireland —Chancery Barristers who walked about Westminster-hall. All the information and the whole of the evidence which could be acquired was already upon the Table of the House, and the issuing of the Commission was designed merely to blind the people, and to shelter the Government—a Government which had not the courage to proceed with the 147th clause of the Church Temporalities' Bill of last year; but upon which it would now seem the Cabinet was divided. This it was, that was calculated to bring Ireland, not to civil convulsion—no, she was "waiting awhile"—but to make the people of that country deride the councils of the English Government, and to teach her that a united Legislature was incompatible with the freedom of Ireland. He was for connexion, but not for such a connexion as was now held, for it was that of slavery. There was a species of insanity in thus legislating for Ireland, leading to a political plunder of Ireland's liberties, and a provocative to rebellion. He called upon hon. Members to refer to the Irish Statute-book framed by English legislation, and a bloody book it would be found. The laws therein contained, were ample, if bloody and coercive laws could accomplish such an object, for the punishment of any violence or outrage that might from time to time ensue; and what more could be either wanted or desired, unless it was contemplated to take away the liberties of Ireland by force? It was true, that the Government had 23,000 of military, backed by 6,000 police, in Ireland; and to their reliance on the bayonets of the soldiery might be attributed their recurrence to the principles which had cashiered the right hon. Gentleman, the late Secretary for the Colonies. If they renewed the provisions of the Coercion Bill, they would only place another blot on the escutcheon of England. But had not the Government some secret motive in passing this Bill? He firmly believed that they had, and that their object was to render it ancillary to the collection of tithes. So strong was his aversion to the course pursued by his Majesty's Ministers, that he should not
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only persist in moving a call of the House whenever this measure was brought forward, but would take every other means in his power to oppose a proposition which, so help him God, he considered injurious to the connection between the two countries.
Mr. Feargus O'Connorsaid, that some portion of the House had indulged in laughter at the excitement of his hon. friend the member for Meath; but he believed with him, that if a similar course were attempted with respect to England that was now enforced towards Ireland, the House would present a scene of far greater excitement. When he was fool enough to assist the Government through thick and thin with their Reform Bill, though he was warned at the time, that if that measure was not accompanied by some alterations in the Act of Union, the very first thing the Reformed Parliament would do, would be to pass some Gagging Bill for Ireland, what was the result?— the Coercion Bill. Let them not—let the Government not dare to talk to him about their remedial measures, their conciliatory measures, their tithe-extinction measures. Where were they all? They were useless, they were worse than useless—they were base delusions, and they operated as such upon the people of Ireland; and when they produced their natural effect, that of enraging that already-oppressed people, they must appease them, forsooth, with a Coercion Bill. The whole people of Ireland cried out, "Give us food!" and Ministers gave them the Coercion Bill—a Bill which was a violation of every principle of the Constitution, which was agreed to as a momentary violation, which was to be withdrawn, and which, nevertheless, the Government were now, it appeared, resolved to carry in all its original rigour. Let them try to do so. Let them make their attempt, and he, on his part, would raise such a cry in Ireland as would turn them out of their seats. Let him remind his countrymen of the words of the inspired bard:—
Then onward the green banner rearing,
Let's flesh ev'ry sword to the hilt;
On our side is virtue and Erin,
On their's is the Saxon and guilt!
Let them reflect upon this warning. Let the Government reflect upon it; and let them be cautious not to pass beyond those boundaries which human nature had fixed for the endurance of wrong.
Mr. Elliceadmitted, that there was some justification for the warmth which had been manifested in the course of the present discussion on the part of the Irish Members, but he did not mean to imitate it. He, however, could not understand what object could be gained or attained by referring the papers which had been laid on the Table by his noble friend to a Select Committee, which could not be obtained by the printing of those documents as proposed by his noble friend. The case of the Government depended upon the information contained in those papers, which, when printed, might be considered by every hon. Member before the measure came on for discussion. If the information therein contained should not then be found sufficient to justify the re-enactment of the Bill now before the other House of Parliament, then would be the proper time for the House to express an opinion upon it. By such a course, he could not but think that the House would act better for the country to which the Act was intended to be applied, than if it were now to send the documents to a Committee up-stairs, who could report their opinion only upon the matter contained in the papers themselves. All that the Government could desire was, that the whole matter should be taken into the full, fair, and calm consideration of the House—that the papers should be duly weighed and considered by every hon. Member, and that then would be the proper time for the House to declare, whether or not the measure was justified. He should avoid entering into any justification of the conduct of the Government, or to allude to the speeches which had been made on the other side of the House, as it would only add to the irritation which already prevailed. He, however, must entreat the House to accede to the Motion of his noble friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and to allow the papers to be printed.
Mr. Humethought, that the right hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the House, had not heard the declaration of the hon. member for Meath (Mr. Henry Grattan), that he was prepared to bring evidence of the first character to disprove the Reports which had issued from Inspectors and other officers of the police. It would be impossible for the hon. Member to do that, if the papers containing those Reports were merely printed and laid upon the Table of the
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House. There was a want of information in the present instance, and he put it to his right hon. friend (Mr. Ellice), whether he had ever known any Tory Administration to which he had ever been opposed, come down with a measure calculated as the Bill was, to suspend the liberties of the subjects of a portion of the realm, without affording a green-bag full of information? He (Mr. Hume) complained, that no green-bag had been produced in the present case. If such a measure were necessary, it was but reasonable that the information on which it was founded should have been submitted to the Legislature long before the 7th of July—a most advanced period of the present Session. He should be glad to know, what there was in the present question that a different course than ordinary should be pursued. It was not unreasonable that the Irish Members should desire to know on what grounds the measures affecting the dearest interests of their country were to be supported, and especially when the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, had admitted, that those grounds were in some instances very slight. The course pursued in this instance was much worse even than any course the Tories ever pursued; the Tories had never started such a measure, without at least some species of inquiry, although such inquiry might have been a mere mockery. In this case, however, it was especially the duty of the Government to go into an investigation, in order at least to show, that they were not despots. It was also called for, inasmuch as 1,000,000 l. sterling was necessary to maintain the force which was required to keep Ireland tranquil, merely because justice was not done to that country by the British Legislature. The Coercion Bill had been sought last year in order to afford time for the Government to design measures for the removal of grievances; but the failure of that measure had been foretold by every hon. Member who had opened his mouth against it, until the Government should take off the existing pressures upon Ireland. If ever the Government had been desirous to show, that they took an interest in the welfare of the country, now was the time; and they could not better evince that feeling than by consenting to send the representations contained in the documents laid on the Table to a Committee upstairs, and thereby allow hon. Members

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an opportunity of disproving the allegations on which the Bill was founded. He trusted his Majesty's Government would not refuse to accede to this initiatory step towards the settlement of peace and tranquillity in Ireland. To accomplish this desirable end only required the nod of assent by the Minister in that House, and without it, he must admit, it was in the power of hon. Members to crush Ireland by those very majorities with which the Ministers was supported. He should certainly support the Motion of his hon. and learned friend, the member for Dublin.
Mr. O'Reillysaid, that after the conduct which the noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government had pursued in respect to this Bill, he could not place much confidence in the opinion that noble Lord now entertained. As to the authenticity of the Reports of the police of Ireland, he could only say, that in 1821 and 1822 it had been declined to be acted upon by the right hon. Gentleman now presiding over the India Board, when the renewal of the Insurrection Act had been required from him at the time he filled the office of Secretary for Ireland. He (Mr. O'Reilly) had submitted to the right hon. Gentleman, now the member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) documents which proved the organization of a complete scheme for the disturbance of the county of Cavan, in order to induce the Government to renew the Insurrection Act, and to secure the calling out of the Yeomanry to be placed upon full-pay. Those documents were now in the Castle of Dublin, and showed the spirit in which information was sent to those charged with the Government of Ireland. He had the letter of the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Control, refusing to act upon the information in this respect, though without any new evidence to inform his mind, the then Lord Lieutenant (the Marquess Wellesley) called for the renewal of the Insurrection Act—a measure which had thus been declined by the then Secretary for Ireland and his predecessor in that office. It was, however, at length given up, as he trusted the Coercion Bill would, after the experience which the last two years had afforded. He concurred with the hon. and learned member for Dublin in desiring, that the documents upon which the renewal of the Coercion Bill was to be
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justified, should be referred to a Committee, because it would afford him (Mr. O'Reilly) an opportunity of examining both the right hon. Gentlemen to whom he alluded—of calling for those documents to which he referred; and also of examining the right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth, who had permitted the Insurrection Act to die. It was true, that the state of agitation had been the only argument in favour of the Bill, but it was impossible for the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, or any other individual, to afford one tittle of evidence to show, that agitation had been kept up in Ireland to such an extent as to justify the re-enactment of such a Bill. He admitted that crimes were perpetrated in Ireland, but they originated in very different causes from political agitation. He had himself never joined in agitation since the suppression of the old Catholic Association. Yes, he had agitated the Tithe Question, as he was reminded by the hon. and learned member for Dublin, but he had not taken a part in the Repeal agitation. He, however, had never understood the extinction of tithes to mean the transfer of tithes into the pockets of the landlords; and though he might have agitated the Tithe Question, he had never written letters, and allowed others to suffer for publishing them. He had ever been ready to take his share of the consequences of his own acts, and had been willing to endure his portion of blame. He should certainly vote for the Motion of the hon. and learned member for Dublin, because that, in addition to what he had already stated, would afford him the opportunity of examining the present Attorney-General for Ireland with reference to some information furnished to that functionary by Mr. Warburton, an Officer of Police in Ireland. The fact was, that when the police did their duty, they did not get credit for it, because they sometimes overstepped the boundaries which the law prescribed for their regulation. He hoped to see the time when Ireland would not be governed by a Lord Lieutenant who was unable to supply Parliament with the information it required, but governed by a Secretary, who, standing on the floor of that House, could lay before its Members such statements as were found necessary.
Mr. Charles Grantsaid, that as the hon. and learned Gentleman had alluded to him personally, he would trouble the

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House with a few words. The hon. Gentleman only did him justice in supposing, that in giving his voice in favour of a renewal of the Coercion Bill, he must be influenced by a strong and paramount conviction of its necessity. The hon. Member had been somewhat incorrect in his dates in what he had said as to his conduct in Parliament. It was in 1819, and the commencement of 1820, that disturbances broke out in Galway, and during that winter strong efforts were made to induce him to propose the renewal of the Insurrection Act, which he resisted. In 1820, the Question came before the House, and the House gave its opinion, and the Question was set at rest. The hon. Member appeared to have forgotten that he had left Ireland in 1821, when the Question about the renewal of the Insurrection Act again came forward. It was discussed in March and April, having been brought forward late in February, when he was no longer a member of the Government. Acting, then, in his individual capacity, when he could not be supposed to be in any degree influenced by the Government, what was its course? Upon consideration of the papers laid before Parliament, he did feel himself called upon to vote for the measure notwithstanding his previous impressions. He acceded to the revival of the Insurrection Act, because he was convinced, that great as were the evils which it inflicted, those which it prevented would be still greater if left unchecked. He did, therefore, concur in the measure, and not by a silent vote. His was the same course which he asked the House to take now. Here were the papers before them, and if, upon examining them, the case should not, in their opinion, bear out the renewal of the Bill, let them not pass it. But he asked them also not to adopt a course which would prevent the papers from being printed upon which the House must ultimately come to a decision before they had examined the papers placed before them.
Sir Robert Peelfound himself called upon very unexpectedly to give a vote upon a very important question. He had not the least expectation that the papers were to be presented to-day, and, therefore, the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman which stood upon the presentation of the papers, had altogether taken him by surprise. Unprepared, however, as he was, he was unwilling to evade the
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difficulty; he should vote against the appointment of a Committee, and state his reasons for doing so. He voted for the measure last year from a deep general conviction that some such measure was necessary, and he had no reason to believe that such a change had taken place in the state of Ireland as to warrant the removal of the measure. If he voted for referring the subject to a Select Committee on the 7th of July, to make the inquiry effectual, they must summon persons from the distant counties of Ireland. But to commence such an inquiry on the 7th of July, would be tantamount to practically rejecting the Bill. He believed, however, that the Bill, or some Bill of the kind, was necessary. While, therefore, he could not, on the one hand, consent to the adoption of such a Bill without having an opportunity of reading the papers upon which the provisions were founded; yet he confessed, that on the other hand, he could not consent to a proposition which would be tantamount to the rejection of a legislative enactment which, upon the whole, he believed to be necessary for ensuring the peace in Ireland. It was the duty of his Majesty's Government, at a much earlier period this Session, to have declared their intention with respect to the re-enacting this Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman said, that it was not his fault that this Motion was made on the 7th of July. It might be so; but as its adoption would be to postpone the measure, he could not assent to it. He must also say, that the explanations required from his Majesty's Government were those which a Select Committee could not give. The Government ought not to leave the House in doubt as to what were the opinions of the executive government in Ireland, who would be responsible for the execution of the law. What he saw in the papers before him left him no reason to doubt that it had been the opinion of the Marquess Wellesley at no distant period, that the renewal of the Coercion Act in its integrity was necessary to the security of life and ensuring the supremacy of the law. On the 15th of April, 1834, he found in the copies of the despatches printed on their Table the following words:—'These disturbances have been in every instance excited and inflamed by the agitation of the combined projects for the abolition of tithes, and the destruction of the Union with Great Britain. I cannot employ

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words of sufficient strength to express my solicitude that his Majesty's Government should fix the deepest attention on the intimate connection marked by the strongest characters, in all these transactions between the system of agitation and its inevitable consequence, the system of combination, leading to violence and outrage; they are, inseparably, cause and effect. Nor can I (after the most attentive consideration of the dreadful scenes passing under my view), by any effort of my understanding, separate one from the other in that unbroken chain of indissoluble connection.' If he searched through the English language—and the Marquess Wellesley had once been a great master of that language—it would be impossible to find stronger words than those in which that noble Lord had expressed his opinion, that predial violence was inseparably connected with political agitation. He would look at another of the documents, being the answer to the two questions put to the inspectors of police, as to whether the state of their districts demanded the renewal of the Act, and if any amendment would be required on its renewal. The answer of the inspectors was unanimous as to the necessity of the renewal; and one of them (Mr. Warburton) stated, that no amendment at all was necessary. In this, he said, all the inspectors were unanimous, and Lord Wellesley, on the 18th of April, in his despatch to the Government, added these words:—
My Lord—I have the honour to enclose, for the consideration of his Majesty's Government, the replies of the provincial inspectors to a question which I proposed to them respecting the renewal of the Act for the more effectual Suppression of Local Disturbances in Ireland, which, if not renewed, will expire in the month of August, 1834.
Your Lordship will observe that their opinion is unanimously and powerfully given in favour of the renewal of that Act.
It is superfluous for me to add my entire approbation of the opinions which they have expressed, and my most anxious desire that the Act may be renewed.
He knew something of Lord Wellesley: he had had the honour and satisfaction of serving under him in an official situation, where he stood upon close and intimate connection with him, when Lord Wellesley was Lord-lieutenant, and he was Chief Secretary for Ireland; and no man could have had better means of
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judging whether his opinion on such a subject was likely to be lightly formed and lightly changed. Being aware that Lord Wellesley was very careful in forming, and firm in retaining, his opinion, he must say, that he never heard anything with greater surprise than the statement which had been made as to the change of the noble Lord's views, in the month of June. That he who wrote those letters of the 15th and 18th of April, could on the 18th of June have written another, recommending a totally different course upon the same question, was utterly beyond his power of comprehension. For Lord Wellesley to take such a course, when one recalled to mind the energy and firmness of his policy in India! He should deeply regret indeed, that the closing scenes of the career of such a statesman should be marked by such vacillation and indecision. For the honour of Lord Wellesley explanation was due. As that noble Lord was intrusted with the responsible government of Ireland and the guardianship of her peace, they had a right to know why it was that they found him involved in these contradictions, which he (Sir Robert Peel) was unwilling to believe were his own. There were reasons, also, of a higher consideration, which demanded that such imputations upon a public functionary should be removed or explained. If, on the 18th of June, Lord Wellesley had come to the opinion that it was possible to separate political agitation from predial violence, after having declared in language so strong on the 18th of April, that they were inseparably connected, Parliament ought to know the grounds upon which that change of opinion had been come to. For although Lord Wellesley might be prepared to take the responsibility of governing Ireland without the Coercion Act, the House should, at least, know the grounds upon which he had come to his Resolution, before they reposed confidence in a judgment which, upon the face of such transactions, appeared to be so unstable. He would say to the Government at home, that they took upon themselves a heavy responsibility for their part in the proceeding. What! when they found the Lord-lieutenant urging the renewal of the Act in the latter end of April, not in common terms, but searching the language to find terms to express his strong desire for the adoption of that measure—what prevented the Ministers from

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giving notice of their intention to Parliament until the 2nd of July? What had passed between them and the Irish Government during that interval? Had not the House a right to some explanations upon this head? With such an opinion entertained by the head of the Irish Government, such a course as that which had been pursued towards him must naturally have the effect of paralysing all government in that country, and divesting it of the energy indispensably required by the circumstances of the times. He felt these considerations powerfully urging him to call for investigation, if the necessary information should be withheld from the House; but he differed from the hon. and learned Member as to the propriety of appointing a Select Committee; and no temporary advantage should induce him to support a proposition that in his deliberate judgment could lead to no good result. At the same time he admitted the justice of the hon. and learned Gentleman's complaints of the treatment he had personally received, and not one word should the hon. and learned Gentleman hear from him in abatement of the just indignation which he had expressed. What was the situation in which the hon. and learned Gentleman stood towards the Government? On the first day of the Session the Government put words into the King's mouth, which he would take the liberty to read to the House. The King was made to say:—'To the practices which have been used to produce disaffection to the State, and mutual distrust and animosity between the people of the two countries, is chiefly to be attributed the spirit of in- subordination, which, though for the present in a great degree controlled by the power of the law, has been but too perceptible in many instances. To none more than to the deluded instruments of the agitation thus perniciously excited, is the continuance of such a spirit productive of the most ruinous consequences; and the united and vigorous exertions of the loyal and well-affected, in aid of the Government, are imperiously required to put an end to a system of excitement and violence, which, while it continues, is destructive of the peace of society, and, if successful, must inevitably prove fatal to the power and safety of the United Kingdom.' These were the words of his Majesty's Ministers. They advised the King to speak to them; and who could
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doubt, that they were pointed at the hon. and learned Member? He thought it at the time derogatory to the dignity of the Crown, and calculated unduly to raise that individual into importance. Were the Ministers who put that speech into the mouth of the King, who said, that "To the practices which have been used to produce disaffection to the State, and mutual distrust and animosity between the people of the two countries, is chiefly to be attributed the spirit of insubordination,"—were these Ministers the same who now saw no connection between political agitation, and the "spirit of insubordination?" If so, what must be the feelings of those loyal and well-affected persons in Ireland whose united and vigorous exertions the Government had imperiously invoked on the first day of the Session, when they found on the 20th of June the same hon. and learned Gentleman who had been then pointed out to them as an object of royal disapprobation selected to receive the confidential communications of the same Government! And what must be the feelings of the hon. and learned Gentleman himself, when he found that the communication made to him to conciliate his support had only the effect of misleading him! When it was found that the Lord-lieutenant on the one side, and the loyal and well-affected people on the other side all concurred with the opinion not long ago expressed by the Ministers, that this measure was necessary; and when it was afterwards found that this united opinion was riot to be acted upon, he would put it to any Gentleman conversant with the affairs of Ireland or of any other country to say, whether any Government could expect to secure to itself the co-operation of the loyal and well-affected, or the respect and confidence of any portion of the population in that part of the empire?
Mr. Littletonhaving found himself, upon a former occasion, under the necessity of making an unqualified admission of the indiscretion he had committed, he felt himself relieved from the duty of replying to that portion of the right hon. Baronet's speech which related to the communication he had made to the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite. Having done that, he was called upon to say no more upon the subject, and he should say no more upon it either then, or at any other time. The right hon. Baronet had

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inveighed in strong terms against the injustice and impropriety of the Government having delayed the proposal of the measure so long. With all respect he differed from the right hon. Baronet. He thought it was the duty of the Government, acting under a natural and constitutional reluctance to the bringing forward any such measure, to obtain the longest possible retrospect of the operation of the Act before they decided on its renewal. This was a principle which, he contended, entitled them rather to the approbation of the House than to its censure. With respect to the necessity of the Marquess Wellesley explaining his sentiments, he could only say, that he sent him (Mr. Littleton) the dispatches laid upon the Table of the House, and that he did about the middle of last month, after two months had elapsed from the time when those dispatches were written, and after there had been a considerable abatement of the meetings in Ireland, submit to the noble Marquess, as a confidential friend, and as the Secretary for Ireland, to consider how far that portion of the Bill which was directed against public meetings would be necessary. A correspondence had ensued, and there was much discussion between the Members of the Government here and the noble Marquess, and the result was, that it was agreed upon, that the renewal of this measure, as proposed in the other House, was desirable.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that the date of the 18th of April was important to be borne in mind as the period at which the Lord-lieutenant had recommended the renewal of the Coercion Bill. The question was, did the Lord-lieutenant change his mind before the Government resolved on renewing the Bill? They relied on the opinion of the Lord-lieutenant in favour of coercion. Did they refuse to act upon his opinion when it was against its continuance? It was evident there was something kept back. There were other documents which must be produced before the House could proceed with the measure. They had some data, but they wanted other data before they could possibly judge of the necessity for renewing the Act. What was the admission made by the right hon. Gentleman? Why, that the Lord-lieutenant had undergone a complete change of opinion in a very short time. Was that true, or was it not true?
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If not, then the right hon. Gentleman had mistaken—for he could never attribute any intentional misrepresentation of anything—he had mistaken the opinions of the noble Marquess. All the House had to form its opinion by was the letter of the 18th of April, and that recommended the renewal of the Bill with the Court-martial clause. But the Ministers had brought in a Bill and left that out. They were therefore, in any case, not acting upon the advice and opinion of the noble Marquess. The right hon. Baronet objected to the Motion because it was too late to appoint a Select Committee. What! was any time too late to have a full investigation as to the necessity of such an Act before it was passed? The right hon. Baronet was, of course, free to blame what he conceived would be a defeat of a measure which he conceived necessary; but would he tell them that upon such despatches as had been produced, the House would be justified in renewing the Coercion Act? If so, why did not the Government make up their minds to do it on the 18th of April? Were they not asked again and again in the other House whether it was their intention to renew it or not, and did not the hon. and learned member for the University of Dublin repeat the question in that House until the noble Lord opposite thought it had been pushed to an unwarrantable length? He could scarcely believe, that the members of the present Government had consented to the Bill. He saw before him the right hon. and learned member for Edinburgh, whose opinion the House had heard upon this Bill long before he was in office. He opposed such a Bill in 1822, and again in 1833. He confessed he was very solicitous of knowing on what ground it was, that that right hon. Gentleman would justify his support of it now; and that support given without inquiry. It was said, the object of the Bill was to put down agitation. Why, there was none. No meetings had taken place, and scarcely any disturbance. What were the grounds then? None, as would be shown if they went into evidence before a Committee. It was said, they would have no more information before the Committee than in the House. He denied it. They might demand more, and have all the correspondence placed before them.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that the hon. and learned Member seemed to insist, and not

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unnaturally, he admitted, on the fact of the letter of the Marquess Wellesley of the 18th of April making no exception to the Court-martial clause in the renewal. That arose purely from the Marquess Wellesley never having considered that provision as any part of the measure. It had never been acted upon, and the noble Lord looked upon it as a dead letter.
Mr. O'Connell: Good God! was it referred to the opinion of a man to decide whether they should have this Act renewed who had never thought the Court-martial clause worth his attention at all? Were they then to suffer such an infringement of their liberties because this nobleman could not suffer the idea to disturb his semi-regal thoughts? The Government must produce the whole evidence upon this matter, and let the House see how it stood. There was the letter of the 18th of April before them; they wanted the next of the 20th of June, and Ministers were afraid to produce it. Would that House submit to such treatment? They had not time enough to consider the Bill, but they had their majority ready to carry it through—a majority of reformed Members—not the virtual, but the actual Representatives of the people. He trusted the House would not concede what was recommended by the right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth. What would they gain by it? Nothing. On the contrary, they would save time by appointing a Committee to make the necessary investigation. Did the right hon. Gentleman think, that they who opposed the Bill would not discuss it word for word, and sentence by sentence. Should he not have to deal with every line of the Bill, and to submit a distinct Motion upon the tergiversations and the practices which had been resorted to to carry it? Did they think, that he should allow any means of opposition to escape, or that any other of those who represented the feeling of the people of his country would? No man who would could ever again deserve the confidence of the people of Ireland, and be would never again recommend them to it. Oh! were these the measures they were to receive at the hands of men who professed so much—who called themselves the descendants of the old Whigs, the friends of liberty, the defenders of freedom, the enemies of tyranny—who talked of having civil freedom engraved on their standard and equal rights for their prin-
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ciples? Yes, they had it for themselves; but they had it not for Ireland. What became now of the six hours' speech? If it had been six-and-thirty hours he would meet it now with the one fact of this Bill, and there was its answer. Oh! he should be the basest of slaves if ever he submitted to that Union. This measure no longer left a question of the Repeal of the Union. To obtain a separation of the two countries was now the duty of every Irishman, and he would employ all the constitutional means at his command to have it repealed. Their speeches would no longer prevail. He would tell them, that they might make up their fabricated Returns, they might marshal their columns of false figures—he would put the one fact of the renewal of this Bill without inquiry before the nation, and what would all their statements be worth? What country had ever cursed another as England had cursed Ireland? What country ever inflicted upon another so many evils? For the last seven hundred years she had pursued one course of robbery, burning, murder, and blood. Talk of the cruelties of Russia towards Poland! They were nothing compared to the horrors which England had perpetrated upon his country. Why did he speak this now? Because they were still going on in the same career. Yes, their hands were still stained with blood; but there was not the boldness of spoliation in their acts; they only sought now to perpetuate the degradation of his country. Much good might it do them with it. Did they think it would last? He would tell them, that it would not. If England were to go to war, but she dared not go to war, for Ireland would then be her bitterest foe, and join her arms to those of the enemy. And could any one say to Ireland, that she ought not to be the foe of England, when she was goaded to it by such treatment as she had all along received at the hands of this country? On the 20th of June she was told that she was not to be governed by coercion, and now on the 7th of July, because the Premier chose it, and the House of Commons were afraid to resist him—because they were afraid to break up the Parliament, and ashamed to go back to their constituents, though they were not ashamed to be bandied as he then bandied them, and would continue to bandy them—now, forsooth, coercion was to be enforced in all its rigorous

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provisions! All he wanted of the Government now was, to allow an examination to be had into their conduct in this strange affair. If they were right in what they had done, they would surely have nothing to fear from inquiry. But the fact unfortunately was, that the Government had fallen into the hands of a military police establishment, who lived on disorder and confusion, and got their monthly pay during the continuance of disturbances. These were the witnesses upon whose authority the Government now proposed to act, and those witnesses were false. The assertion of the Lord-lieutenant also, that predial disturbances were fomented by political agitation, was false. It really was too bad to have the destinies of a great people depend upon the misrepresentations of such a will-o'-the-wisp, such a creature whom he would not degrade himself by describing in his full colours. The Government appreciated his worth pretty well; they would not admit him into their Cabinet; but he was good enough for Ireland. Well, how stood the history of this affair? On the 18th of April it appeared, the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland was for the renewal of the Coercion Act, Court-martial clauses and all; on the 20th of June, he was of a different opinion, and the Court-martial clauses were to be given up; and now, on the 7th of July, the House was called upon, upon the authority of the same Lord-lieutenant, to retain those very clauses. But he (Mr. O'Connell) proclaimed it openly and unhesitatingly that those Court-martial clauses had not been given up out of respect to the Marquess Wellesley, but in a spirit of miserable truckling of one part of the Administration to another. When the hon. and learned member for Edinburgh joined the Government, it was that these clauses were sacrificed. The hon. and learned Member had undergone the ordeal of a re-election, and he might have been entertained there with a Dudley fête. The hon. and learned Member knew that amongst the constituency of Edinburgh there were a hundred Irish voters. [The Attorney General: Yes, but they all voted against me.] And they did right. They did right to vote against the prosecutor of the True Sun: and one who was an officer of the Crown under the former Coercion Bill. Many Scotchmen also would have been found to vote against him, had they
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known him as the agent of the Polonius Lord-lieutenant of Ireland. But he would not even yet despair. He had a fair reliance on the good sense and power of the instructed part of the people of Ireland. They would wait their time, which sooner or later must come; and he was happy meantime to tell them that the county of Wexford was not altogether lost to the good cause. The repealer, though not personally very popular, had gained the day. In conclusion, he would only once more appeal to the honesty and good sense of the Government and of the House. Would they grant the inquiry he asked for? Would they give him an opportunity of falsifying the interested witnesses who had so long misled them? By so doing they might give some satisfaction to his abused and suffering countrymen, but do what they could they could not crush the spirit of liberty which reigned amongst them.
Mr. Abercrombysaid, that when the proper time came he should hold himself prepared to give the reasons why he thought the re-enactment of the Coercion Act necessary for Ireland. At the present moment he would only offer a few words in remark upon one or two observations of the hon. and learned member for Dublin. That hon. and learned Member had spoken of the Court-martial clauses of the Bill as if it had been proposed by Government to withdraw those clauses in order to conciliate the opinions of the hon. and learned member for Kircud-bright and himself on the occasion of their accepting office. Now such was not the case. Those clauses were never submitted either to his hon. and learned friend or himself, and could not, therefore, have met with their dissent. He certainly understood that those clauses had been previously withdrawn by the Government. It appeared that his right hon. friend the Secretary for Ireland had been for some time carrying on a correspondence with the Lord-lieutenant upon the provisions of the Bill, in the course of which some variance of opinion had manifested itself; but he believed, that in the end they had come to a full understanding and agreement upon the subject. As to the delay in bringing this measure forward, which had been alluded to as a ground for complaint, for his own part he could not but think that his Majesty's Ministers had acted a wise, a

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just, and humane part towards the people of Ireland in not pressing this measure forward as long as any the slightest ground existed to hope that the re-enactment of a measure so at variance with all the constitutional principles of the State might be unnecessary. They had now, however, produced papers before the House containing evidence of the necessity for such an enactment. It was for the House to consider whether that evidence was sufficient to justify such a measure of coercion; if they did not think it sufficient let them act upon that opinion, and refuse to re-enact the Bill. But at any rate do not let them appoint a Committee which could be productive of no good result in itself, and would effectually prevent the possibility of legislating at all upon the subject during the present Session.
Lord John Russellobserved, that if anybody thought this Bill ought to he renewed without the clauses against political agitation, he considered that the particular tone of the hon. and learned Gentleman that night should undeceive him. When the hon. and learned Member was so vehement against Government for renewing this Act, he begged the House to consider what it was that hon. and learned Gentleman had agreed to in the Act of last year. He was willing to permit the peasantry of Ireland to be compelled, in certain districts, to remain inside their houses at night, and to answer when their names were called over by a policeman. This it would not be denied, was a great infringement of the liberties of the subject. And he really considered it as no further infringement of those liberties to say, that in a country where people were not allowed to be out at night, no person should have the opportunity or the power of exciting them to acts of outrage. He, for one, was not disposed to propose a Bill which should strike merely at the lower classes, and not affect those who excited them and influenced them to acts of outrage. With respect to the law itself there would be plenty of time to discuss it. As regarded the Committee, called for by the hon. and learned Gentleman, it must be for one of two purposes—to ascertain whether the accounts of predial outrage were well founded—a fact which the hon. and learned Gentleman never doubted before, or else to inquire if such a thing as po-
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litical agitation had been and was again to be apprehended. Neither could that be necessary; the facts were before the world; it was notorious that agitation had gone on in Dublin and elsewhere, and who could doubt that it would be renewed? With respect to the observation made by the hon. and learned Gentleman as to the return of the repeal candidate for Wexford, he begged to say, that he was glad the Repealer had succeeded, because it took away from the hon. and learned Gentleman his only ground of complaint against his right hon. friend.
Mr. O'Connellbegged to say a few words in explanation of what had fallen from the noble Lord who had just sat down. The noble Lord had stated, that he (Mr. O'Connell) had last year admitted the necessity and propriety of keeping the peasantry within their homes after nightfall, and placing them under the surveillance of the police. Now he had admitted no such thing. He certainly did give his consent to a clause in the Coercion Bill by which in any district which had been duly proclaimed as a disturbed one, no man was allowed to be out of his house without some lawful business; but that was a very different thing to shutting everybody up in his house, as had been alleged by the noble Lord.
Lord Stormontwished to put a straightforward question to his Majesty's Ministers, to which he expected to receive an equally candid and straightforward answer. He wished to inquire what were the sentiments of the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland on the 20th of June? The House had already been informed what were his Excellency's opinions on the 18th of April, and on the 7th of July. At those two dates his Excellency's sentiments were the same, but they appeared to differ from those he entertained at the intermediate date of the 20th of June. He wished, therefore, to ask, for the sake of the reputation of his Majesty's Government—ay, he repeated it, for the sake of the reputation of the Government, for, though that might be a subject of great ridicule to those Members opposite, it was not so to the country at large, who too well knew that when the government of any state lost its reputation it lost its moral strength, and that state must fall. He thought it right that the country should be informed what it was, that had occurred to induce lord Wellesley to change his

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sentiments, first between the 18th of April and the 20th of June, and again between the 20th of June and the present date, the 7th of July. He thought, that in justice to all parties all letters and papers tending to throw any light upon this curious question should be produced.
Mr. Robinsonsaid, that if the present question was one of a personal nature between the right hon. Secretary for Ireland and the hon. and learned member for Dublin, and he was almost afraid that it was not much else, he should have very little difficulty in making up his mind how to act. He had never yet acted in concert with the hon. and learned member for Dublin, but on the present occasion he must say, that he felt very much inclined to vote with him. It was very true, as had been urged by hon. Members opposite, that it would be a considerable inconvenience to appoint a Committee of Inquiry at so late a period of the Session. But it was not the fault of the hon. and learned member for Dublin, nor was it the fault of the House, that the question had not been brought on earlier. He must say, that from a full consideration of the importance of the question on which they were called to legislate, he should most sincerely vote for the adoption of the Amendment of the hon. and learned member for Dublin, unless his Majesty's Ministers could immediately show some reason why the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland should have changed his opinion in the way he appeared to have done about the 20th of June, or consent to lay before the House such papers as could best illustrate this singular inconsistency. It had been pretended that these papers were of a private nature; but he could not understand what was meant by private correspondence between public functionaries, and upon momentous public questions; at least he could not see why such private correspondence should be brought forward at all to influence the Legislature in their decision upon such questions.
Lord Althorpin reply to the question of the noble Lord (Lord Stormont) on the opposite side of the House as to what were the opinions of the Marquess Wellesley on the 20th of June, in respect to the Court-martial clauses of the present Act, and what had occurred to induce his Excellency to change those opinions, said, that the fact was, that a discussion
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had been entered into upon the subject of those clauses between the right hon. Secretary for Ireland and his Excellency, in the course of which his Excellency might have made use of expressions such as would justify the right hon. Secretary, with his own previously conceived notions, in conceiving his Excellency favourable to the milder course of omitting the clauses in question. For his own part he was not prepared to say, that on a perusal of the correspondence of the date referred to he should have formed a similar notion of the sentiments of Lord Wellesley. In fact he did not think that any person reading that correspondence could interpret it in that way. The hon. member for Worcester said, that there ought to be no private correspondence between public functionaries and upon public matters. But it would be perfectly impossible to carry on any Government without such confidential communication, and it would be quite impossible, consistent with their public duty, to lay such correspondence on the Table of the House of Commons any time it might be called for.
Sir Robert Peelfelt himself impressed with the necessity of making a few observations if only out of justice to Lord Wellesley, who was mixed up in their disputes. If correspondence on public matters could always be suppressed by simply endorsing them with the word "private," here would be a very simple way of at once avoiding all inquiry. He trusted in the present case that in justice to the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland his Majesty's Ministers would see the necessity for the production of the correspondence which had been demanded. He had just sent for the printed paper relative to Kilmainham hospital, and he there found copies of letters which bore every internal evidence of having originally been of a private nature. There was one for instance, ending "In haste, ever, my dear Ellice, very truly yours." Now that was very like a friendly private letter. There was another equally free, beginning "Dear Ellice," yet all these letters had been produced without the slightest hesitation.
Mr. Ellicebegged to explain, that all the letters in question had been published with consent of the parties.
Sir Robert Peelexclaimed, "That will quite satisfy me!" He had read what the noble Marquess had written on the 18th of April. He had heard what the

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noble Marquess's opinion was upon the 7th of July; but he was told that on the 20th of June the noble Marquess held a different opinion. They had Lord Wellesley's opinion in favour of the renewal of the Act. They asked for his opinion against it! Would they refer to the Marquess Wellesley, and ask him if he had any objection to the production of that part of his correspondence with the right hon. Secretary which might bear upon this point?
Mr. Ellicehad only made the statement respecting the published letters as a justification of himself.
Sir George Murrayobserved, that the matter became more and more obscure, the more that was said about it by the Government, and the more reason there was for inquiry. One thing he could say, and that with perfect truth, and it was—that if this Bill were for Scotland, as it was for Ireland, nothing would ever induce him to vote for it without inquiry. Certain of the Members of the Government, indeed, had taken credit to themselves because they so long delayed the Motion upon the Coercion Bill, and because no announcement of its renewal had been given, except in the private communication by the right hon. Gentleman to the hon. and learned Gentleman to the effect, that the anxious desire of Government was, if possible, to spare the people of Ireland the infliction of this measure; but see the predicament into which the Administration had brought the House and the people of Ireland by not giving any intimation of their intention to renew the Bill until it was too late for preliminary inquiry as to the fact whether there was a necessity for the renewal or not. Under all the circumstances of the case, he felt bound to follow the example of his right hon. friend, the member for Tamworth; because he saw perfectly that if the Committee of Inquiry were granted, it would be impossible that that measure, or any such measure, could be renewed before the end of the Session. But in so doing, he reserved to himself the right of condemning any portion of the measure which he did not think necessary.
Mr. O'Dwyerremarked, that the right hon. Baronet, it appeared, was willing to let that be done by Ireland which he would resist to the utmost, if it were directed against Scotland. The right hon. Baronet was content to sacrifice Ireland
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rather than put hon. Members to the inconvenience of remaining for some time longer in town, though he would be willing to stay for months or years if the interests or the liberties of Scotland were at stake! The Government wanted to put down the question of Repeal, but that was not to be done by unconstitutional legislation.
Mr. Gillonagreed with the premises of the right hon. Baronet; but he differed from him as to the conclusion at which he had arrived, and he hoped the right hon. Baronet would reconsider it. He trusted that the right hon. Baronet would be induced to regard our fellow-subjects of Ireland in the same light that he did his own countrymen.
Sir George Murrayexplained, that he had not objected to the Committee of Inquiry on account of the inconvenience to hon. Members remaining in town longer than they otherwise might, but there was no time for the inquiry the hon. and learned Gentleman called for before the Coercion Act would expire.
Mr. Ronaynesaid, it was quite clear from what had fallen from certain Ministers that night, that the Coercion Bill was required by the Government, not so much for the purpose of suppressing agrarian disturbances, as putting down political agitation.
Mr. A. Lefroysaid, that he felt impelled by a conscientious sense of duty to support the re-enactment of the Coercion Bill; but he entirely concurred in the censures which had been passed upon his Majesty's Government.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, that Ministers proposed the re-enactment of this odious measure by way of compensating the Conservatives for the protection which they afforded them.
Mr. William Rochesaid, that the renewal of the Bill was a wanton and uncalled-for act of oppression.
The House divided on the Amendment—Ayes 73; Noes 156; Majority 83. The original Motion was agreed to.

List of the AYES.

ENGLAND.

Clay, W.

Aglionby, H. A.

Dashwood, G. H.

Attwood, T.

Duncombe, T.

Bewes, T.

Fancourt, Major

Blackburne, J.

Grote, G.

Brotherton, J.

Guest, J. J.

Buckingham, J. S.

Gully, J.

Buller, C.

Hall, B.

Bulwer, H. L.

Hardy, J.

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Hawkins, J. H.

Chapman, M. L.

Hurst, R. H.

Dobbin, L.

James, W.

Evans, G.

Jervis, J.

Fitzsimon, C.

Langton, Col. G.

Grattan, H.

Palmer, General

Grattan, J.

Parrott, J.

Jacob, E.

Potter, R.

Lynch, H.

Richards, J.

Martin, T. B.

Rippon, C.

Mullins, F. W.

Robinson, G. R.

Nagle, Sir R.

Romilly, J.

O'Connell, Maurice

Scholefield, J.

O'Connell, Morgan

Staveley, T. K.

O'Connell, J.

Thompson, Ald.

O'Connor, F.

Turner, W.

O'Dwyer, A. C.

Walter, J.

O'Reilly, W.

Warburton, H.

Ronayne, D.

Wason, R.

Ruthven, E.

Whalley, Sir S.

Ruthven, E. S.

Williams, Colonel

Roche, D.

SCOTLAND.

Roche, W.

Ewing, J.

Sheil, R. L.

Gillon, W. D.

Sullivan, R.

Wallace, R.

Vigors, N. A.

IRELAND.

Walker, C. A.

Barry, G. S.

Wallace, T.

Bellew, R. M.

Blake, M.

TELLERS.

Browne, D.

O'Connell, D.

Callaghan, D.

Home, J.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
On the Order of the Day being moved for bringing up the Report on the Church Temporalities (Ireland) Act,
The Marquess of Chandosrose to move as an Amendment, a Resolution on the distressed state of the agricultural interest. He had, he said, a number of petitions from Buckinghamshire on the subject of Agricultural Distress, which he should defer presenting until another opportunity. He should, perhaps, apologise to the House for again occupying their attention upon the subject of agricultural distress. But the importance of the question would, he hoped, be a sufficient justification for again introducing the present subject, and at so late a period of the Session. The smallness of the majority against his Motion upon a former occasion inspired him with confident hopes that the decision upon the present Motion would lead to a result beneficial to the agricultural interests. He was convinced, that the Government would feel themselves called upon to grant some relief—particularly as the subject had been adverted to in his Majesty's Speech at the opening of the Session. In reply to a question asked some time ago, the noble Lend opposite declared, that nothing could
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be done for the relief of the agricultural classes more than was already done. That declaration, he confessed, excited his regret and his surprise, after the declaration in his Majesty's Speech, and it constituted another reason for his again bringing the subject under the consideration of Parliament. When he last addressed the House upon this subject, he had to congratulate himself on having the assistance of a right hon. Baronet in the Cabinet, whose secession since had left him almost without hope that the agricultural interests had any supporters in the Ministry. When pressed to give relief to the agricultural classes, the noble Lord opposite said, that there were too measures of relief which would be submitted to the Houses in the course of the Session. The noble Lord alluded to the Poor-laws Amendment Bill, and to the Tithe Commutation Act. One of these Bills the noble Lord had certainly passed through the House, and, without at present entering into any discussion as to whether or not that Bill would ultimately afford such relief to the agricultural classes, he should simply observe, that even the relief contemplated by the noble Lord could not be afforded for some years—until after the Bill had come into full and efficient operation. Why, the very first effect of that Bill upon the farmer would be, to call for an additional outlay of money for the purpose of building workhouses. Could that be regarded as a measure of relief? Then with respect to the Tithe Commutation Bill. That Bill had been by some extraordinary arrangement, given up by the noble Lord. When he saw other classes of the people relieved from taxation, he thought it too bad, that the Session should be allowed to come to a close without some relief being afforded to the agricultural classes. The noble Lord said, he had no surplus of revenue to justify him in a reduction of taxes upon the agricultural classes. Had not the noble Lord consented to vote away large sums of money to purposes infinitely less important? Had not the noble Lord consented to grant money to the Poles—to the Danish claimants—to the Irish Church, and to Greenwich Hospital. It would not do, he could assure hon. Members, to pass this subject over as one of any secondary importance. True, a Committee had been appointed to inquire into local taxation, and he did not mean to deny, that

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relief might be given by the labours of that Committee. But as their report was not as yet before the House, it was obvious that any measure of relief must be distant, if it were afforded at all. He would not then enter into a detail of the distress which existed through the country. These details must be still fresh in the minds of hon. Members—for they were recently submitted to their consideration. He would only ask any hon. Member who heard him to look abroad amongst the agricultural classes, and judge for himself if distress did not exist, and to a very alarming extent, amongst the agricultural classes. Nor was that distress likely to be relieved by the drought of the present season. Relief, he thought, ought to be afforded to the agriculturists, not only from those taxes which pressed upon the farmer, but those which pressed upon the country at large. He had had an opportunity of ascertaining the opinions of many different classes upon this question, and all concurred in hoping, that the Session would not be allowed to pass over without some relief being afforded to the agriculturists. The noble Lord was about to give the farmers and labourers of England a Bill, which by many was regarded as a measure of considerable harshness; and he would implore the noble Lord not to allow the winter to pass without giving some relief to those upon whom the peace and quietness of the country so much depended. He could tell the noble Lord, that it would be impossible to maintain peace under the new Poor Act, unless the farmers were placed in a condition to enable them to employ the labourers. He would submit the case to the House, and he was sure he would have in favour of his Motion, if not a majority, at least such a minority as would show the Noble Lord that before long he would be compelled to afford relief to the agricultural classes. The noble Marquess concluded by moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, expressing the deep regret the House felt at the continuance of the distressed state of agriculture, to which the attention of the House had been called by his Majesty's gracious Speech at the opening of the Session, and humbly representing to his Majesty the anxious desire of the House to have the attention of his Majesty's Government particularly directed to the subject, with a view to the
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removal of some of the pressure as to land by lightening the general and local taxation peculiarly affecting it."
Mr. Robert Palmerseconded the Motion. He felt quite convinced that all who were connected with or friendly to agriculture would be strongly impressed with a sense of deep obligation to the noble Marquess for the untiring perseverance and great ability with which he advocated the just interests of the farmer. Representing, as he did, a large agricultural constituency, he was naturally anxious to second the Motion, and also to support it by his voice as well as he was able. So universal was the admission of the distress under which the agriculturist suffered that it must be unnecessary for him to trouble the House with proofs of that fact. That distress had been for the first time, in as far as his experience went, fairly and fully admitted by the Government in the speech delivered by his Majesty at the commencement of the Session. The declaration contained in that Speech, was regarded by the agricultural body at large as an evidence, a promise that the Government intended to afford some considerable relief to the suffering body. He knew that in many parts of the country meetings had been devised for the purpose of petitioning the Crown and the Parliament for relief, and that those meetings had been foregone in consequence of the impression effected by the King's Speech. When that Speech went abroad it was generally hoped, expected, and believed that the Government would afford some positive and considerable relief to the farmer. He was sorry to say, however, that those hopes had been disappointed, and that in consequence great dissatisfaction had arisen in many parts of the country. The noble Lord had, on a previous occasion, admitted the distress of the farmer, and expressed his regret at not being able to relieve it by any large reduction of taxation. But the noble Lord had added, that he had measures to propose which would afford material relief; and that he considered the farmer must be relieved rather through an abatement of local taxation than through that of general taxation. One of the projected measures alluded to by the noble Lord was the commutation of tithes. He certainly thought, that if the commutation of tithes was arranged upon a fair basis, it would be a great advantage

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to the agriculturist; and therefore he regretted much that no such settlement had been come to. The subject had now been under discussion for two Sessions, and it was most desirable that it should be settled. Indeed, while left in its present state, it had a very injurious effect, for it was impossible for parties wishing to sell land, or parties wishing to buy, to conduct their transactions with anything like certainty and satisfaction. He hoped, therefore, that in the next Session, at all events, the present state of doubt would be put an end to. Another measure which the noble Lord had alluded to as one of anticipated relief to the agriculturist was the Poor-law Amendment Bill. That measure had now passed that House; and, although he was perfectly ready to give the Government credit for good intentions, he could not help feeling great difficulty and doubt as to the practical working of that measure. He thought so much would depend upon the persons who would have authority to put the machinery into action, that every one must entertain great doubt as to the success of the scheme. The greatest virtue, as the case appeared to him, that those who would have to put the Act into force could practise would be forbearance, for without that, and without they sought assistance and advice at the hands of the local authorities, their interference would be most injurious. Another point to which the noble Lord had adverted as one upon which relief might be afforded to the agriculturist was the county rates. Upon that subject he feared that no satisfactory result could be anticipated from the inquiries of the Committee this Session. There was yet one point to which he wished particularly to advert, and that was the conduct of the Government with respect to the Corn-laws. The cultivators of the soil did not feel any confidence from the course taken by the Government that the Corn-laws would not be assailed, and with the countenance of the Government, in the next Session of Parliament; for, although the Government had voted against the Motion of the hon. member for Middlesex, still the opposition was so slight that it gave reason to believe it promised no very long endurance. He could not say, that if, in the next Session of Parliament the Government should be induced to admit foreign corn, upon the principle which the
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noble Lord (Lord Althorp) and some others contended for, that it would be a benefit to the agriculturist—it would speedily be found that the complaints of the farmer would be more general and more pressing than ever. He should be most happy to hear from the noble Lord, that his Majesty's Government were prepared at once to afford substantial relief to the agriculturists; but failing that, an assurance that at the earliest practicable period assistance should be afforded would be received with satisfaction and with gratitude.
Lord Althorphad no intention to complain, admitting as he did that the distress of the landed interest still continued that the subject had upon the present occasion been introduced by the noble Lord to the attention of the House; in making the motion, however, the noble Lord, aware of the difficulty there was of shaping it so as to secure the support of those who on a variety of topics held somewhat conflicting sentiments, had adopted a most prudent course, by submitting it in as general terms as possible; at the same time, that was a mode of procedure to which he, in his experience on the other side of the House, had not unfrequently had recourse, and he was therefore ready to admit its perfect fairness and justice. But it was also easy for him to call upon those who supported this Motion to point out in what way they expected the relief which they demanded could be given. For his own part, he confessed it was extremely difficult, looking at the general taxation of the country, to discover those taxes which peculiarly pressed on the landed interest. He had formerly, as the House was aware stated his intention to apply himself to the examination of all those burthens which peculiarly affected that class; and, having done so, he would state to the House some of those points on which he meant to give relief, although he very much feared it might, in a pecuniary point of view, from the difficulty to which he referred, appear to many of a trifling amount. He was inclined to think, as he had stated more than once, that the severe pressure on the landed interest arose from local more than from general taxation; and that they would obtain relief, not only from the Amendment of the Poor-laws, but also from the commutation of tithes. The noble Marquess

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complained that he had abandoned the Tithe Commutation Bill; but any hon. Gentleman who looked at the period when he did give it up must be satisfied, that he had been induced to do so only from the extremely slight chance of being able to carry it in the present Session. That was a measure to which he had more applied his individual attention before the sitting of Parliament than to any other subject which had been introduced to the consideration of the House—indeed, if he might be allowed to say so, it was peculiarly his own measure; and if he had thought there was a probability of being able to bring it to a successful issue before the Session terminated, he should have been most unwilling to abandon it. The discussions' in Committee on the Poor-law Amendment Bill had extended to so much greater length than he had anticipated (although he did not complain of the attention which had been thus occupied, having endeavoured to make as much progress as they could), that it was impossible to go on as he wished with the other measures. He did not agree with the noble Lord, or with the hon. Gentleman who had seconded his motion, in thinking that the Poor-law Amendment Bill, if passed into a law, would have little effect in relieving agriculture. He knew that in those parishes where an improved system had been adopted, relief had followed, and therefore he believed that immediate advantage and relief would result from the general adoption of that measure. Allusion had been made to the Committee on County-rates; and he was inclined to think, from what he had seen of its proceedings, that considerable advantage might be derived from some of the suggestions which had been thrown out. The recommendation particularly in relation to criminal prosecutions and the mode of charging their expenses, would be a decided improvement; it was founded in justice; and he believed considerable relief would result from its adoption to the landed interest. At the same time it would be necessary, if that recommendation should be adopted to devise a system of efficient checks in order to carry it into convenient operation, and that he feared was impossible, at this advanced period of the Session. He had been taunted, and he thought not very fairly, with the grants of money which
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at different times had been made; but the noble Lord was quite aware that they had been forced upon Government, and in several instances in opposition to his expressed inclination and vote. As far as the terms of the Address were concerned, he was quite ready to agree to it; but the speech by which it was introduced, and the criticisms by which it was accompanied, were certainly by no means so friendly, and as the noble Lord considered it as holding out an immediate prospect of considerable relief, he was not prepared to consent to it. The noble Lord had alluded to the surplus revenue likely to be in hand at the end of the present quarter; at the present moment, however, he could not, until the accounts were made up, state any thing very explicitly, beyond holding out a prospect that a surplus at the end of the financial year, in April, would be found. This being only the first quarter, and the accounts not being completed, it would be rash to calculate on a much greater increase. But as far as that surplus extended he hoped the House would do him the justice to believe that he would not scruple to reduce the taxation of the country. When, however, he came to apply himself to those burthens which peculiarly pressed on the agricultural population, he had, as before stated, found considerable difficulty. The first burthen which he proposed to remove was the Window-tax on farm-houses below a certain amount. [The Marquess of Chandos: What amount?] He was not prepared to enter into the details of his financial arrangement, his object at present was only to refer to the principles of the relief which he proposed for the agricultural interest. The details would more conveniently be entered into on another occasion. Another species of relief to rural parishes, and in reality, he thought, to the farmer, was to allow boys under fifteen years of age to be employed as household servants without being taxed as servants. That, as he had stated, would afford great relief to parishes by enabling them to employ those who otherwise would remain out of work, and the advantage would also extend in a considerable degree to the farmer. He should also propose, that husbandry horses occasionally employed in other occupations should be relieved from the tax after a certain time, that farmers below a certain amount should be allowed to use horses

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employed in agriculture as riding horses, and that they should have the power of occasionally letting for hire their horses, without being subject to the usual tax. He also proposed to take away the taxes on horses employed by shepherds, and on shepherds' dogs. He had stated, that he quite admitted the existence of agricultural distress, and that the duty of Parliament and the Government was to apply themselves to give as much relief as possible, and accordingly he was prepared to face the question of local taxation, to which that distress was principally owing, as liberally as he could without imposing unnecessary burthens on the public purse. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Palmer) had complained of the conduct of the Government with respect to the Corn-laws, but every Cabinet Minister had in fact voted against the Motion for the repeal brought forward by the hon. member for Middlesex, for, looking at the state of the agricultural interest, and considering the consequences which would ensue from such a measure being only carried through that House, he had, notwithstanding his theoretical opinions on the subject, felt himself bound to vote so. He thought after the division which had taken place on that occasion, although it had been said, the object of the Reform Bill would be to entirely destroy all care for the landed interests of the country, the hon. Gentleman had no reason to complain of the state in which the Corn-law Question now stood. At all events, those who held the opinion, that it was for their advantage that the law should continue as it now stood, although he did not think they were altogether right in their opinion, had no ground of complaint against the course which Ministers on the occasion alluded to had adopted. In conclusion, the noble Lord declared his determination to oppose the Motion.
Mr. Heathcoteapproved of the recommendations of the County-rate Committee, and trusted, that if the proposed changes were not made this Session, they would be completed next. With respect to the Corn-laws, he did not think the allusions to them judicious. As the subject had been introduced, he must say, that he thought too low a ground had been taken. The Corn-laws were supported by the judgment of a large majority in that House, and by a larger majority out of it. In the county which he had the honour to represent, he knew that Agricultural
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Associations were generally formed, and that they had come to a determination to maintain the protection now received. As he was anxious to support the agricultural body, he should vote with the noble Marquess.
Mr. Humeexpressed his joy at finding a fixed ground taken for the landed interest, by the hon. Member who had just addressed the House. The hon. Member appeared to think, that the people were favourable to the Corn-laws. That was a question which would soon be tried. The hon. Member too rejoiced in Agricultural Associations, and yet, when the labouring classes formed Unions, they were exclaimed against. The Corn-laws were an odious monopoly. He contended, that the land paid no taxes at all. They made the public pay 6d. for a loaf, which ought to cost only 4d., and out of the surplus, they paid what they called, exclusive taxes. The noble Lord spoke of reducing the local taxation of counties; but he begged on the part of the boroughs and towns of England to put in a claim for some portion of that reduction. Local taxation might not press to an equal extent on the borough population, as on the agricultural community, but still the former was not devoid of all claim on the noble Lord's kindly intentions. The great evil of the county local taxation originated in the gross mismanagement of those to whom its levying was intrusted. At present, he did not hesitate to say, no kind of check, or control over its levy, or indeed in its expenditure, was exercised. The Government some time ago gave hope, that the subject would receive their attention, but as yet no steps were taken to place it on a better or more satisfactory footing. He would recommend the Government not to interfere at all with it, but leave it to the country gentlemen themselves, the parties naturally most interested in the proper management of the local taxes, to make the requisite reduction in the expenditure, and to arrange a proper system of control over the collection. Of one thing, he was sure, if the Government attempted to exonerate the counties from local taxation, they would find it impossible to avoid coming before Parliament for grants of the public money. The noble Lord had been at some trouble to account for his having voted against, and spoken in favour of the Motion which he submitted to the House on the present

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subject, but he feared, beyond himself, the noble Lord had failed in attaining his object. All he had to say upon the point was, that if in future, instead of speaking for, and voting against him, the noble Lord would vote for, and speak against him, which he might do as often as he pleased, he would never think of upbraiding him with the apparent inconsistency of the proceeding. Upon the subject of the Corn-laws, he did hope the House of Commons would, during the next Session, see the necessity of doing justice to the people. If his Majesty's Ministers would only give him, and those with whom he coincided, fair play, he was confident a majority of that House would be found favourable to a free trade in corn; a measure which would do more for the real advancement of the agricultural interests, than all the financial projects the noble Lord had just announced.
Mr. Cayley, in commencing his observations, said he was very sorry to differ with his noble friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. member for Middlesex had attacked the Agricultural Associations, and had adverted to the Unions. But he would beg leave to ask, whether a great distinction was not to be drawn between those Associations which met for the purpose of petitioning Parliament peaceably on the subject of their distress, and those Unions which paraded the streets in formidable array. The agricultural interest, he maintained, was taxed by low prices. And the hon. Gentleman proceeded to read a Letter which had been written by an operative of Manchester, which said, that the anti-Corn-law men dared not call a meeting in that town, because they knew that if they did, they would be defeated—that the operatives there were not to be gulled; and that they knew, if such tax were taken off, they (the operatives) would derive no benefit, as the money would go into the pockets of the master-manufacturers, instead of their own. To show the animus which directed certain persons, the hon. Member said, that that very morning they had a witness before the Committee on the band-loom weavers, who, having expressed a wish, that the Corn-laws should be done away, was asked, whether, in such an event, he might not be as much prejudiced in respect to his home custom, as he would be benefited by foreign trade in corn? To this, he replied, that certainly the feeling was,
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that such was the agricultural strength in the House of Commons and the House of Lords, that the operatives confidently expected the result would be, that the agriculturists would complain of the reduction of the interest of the National Debt. He thanked the noble Lord for his intention to take off the duty on shepherds' dogs, because it was a vexatious tax. He believed, that nothing but relief from taxation would be of use, and he hoped that local taxation would be reduced. He would also call the attention of the noble Lord to the tax on memorials for registration, in the counties of York and Middlesex. There was a strong impression abroad, that foreign corn was smuggled into this country through Jersey and Guernsey, and that it was smuggled in through certain channels, from the United States, &c.; and he wished his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Trade, would look to this matter. It had been urged, as an objection to the Resolution of the noble Lord, that it would lead to no practicable result; but he thought its effect would be, to show that that House were resolved, at all hazards, to protect the agricultural interest, it would give great satisfaction to the country. Low prices, were the cause of the pressure—a fact which was stated in a petition which he had hoped to have presented to the House. The agricultural interest wanted higher prices; and the two alternatives left were, either to elevate prices, or to effect a reduction of taxation. He knew this was an unpopular doctrine—and that there was only one doctrine more so, and that was, political economy. The hon. Gentleman here referred to some of the evidence given before the Agricultural Committee, to show, that that interest required relief. If the labourers expected relief from any other source than that of the capital of their employers, they were mistaken. He thought, that an increased silver currency, and allowing the issue of paper 1l. notes, managed under proper restrictions and safeguards, would be an advantage to the country. He prayed the noble Lord to do something efficient for the landed interest, for otherwise, he believed, that disaffection would rise up in this country, and that the Government would be vested in other hands than those in which it was now placed, because they would lose their seats from disappointing the hopes of the landed interest.
Mr. Baringthought the agriculturists of the country owed a deep debt of gratitude to the noble Marquess for again bringing under discussion the condition of their interests, endeavouring once more to extract from Government some promise of relief. The distress of the farming population had now continued for a longer period than distress had ever previously been endured, and it became in consequence the more necessary that the attention of the Legislature should be earnestly and forcibly directed to it. Than the degree of relief just promised by the noble Lord, nothing could be more unsatisfactory, nay, nothing could be more insulting. The distressed condition of the agricultural interest at the commencement of the present Session had been deemed of such importance as to be worthy of mention in the Speech from the Throne; and, notwithstanding that circumstance, and notwithstanding the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was, up to the present time, unable to say, that the condition of that interest was improved, or improving, it appeared that all which they had to expect from his Majesty's Ministers, was the repeal of the tax on shepherds' dogs. Undoubtedly the relief which the noble Lord proposed giving was something; but it could not for a moment be expected to satisfy the farmers, who, more especially since the recognition of agricultural distress both in the Speech from the Throne, and in the speeches at various times made by Ministers, very naturally expected that some portion of the noble Lord's financial savings would have been appropriated to their relief. The noble Lord repeatedly promised, that as soon as the finances of the country permitted it, the agricultural interests should be relieved, but unfortunately when the proper time for carrying the promise into effect arrived, either from forgetfulness, or from a desire to stop the mouths of some more clamorous claimants, the noble Lord invariably passed over the agriculturists, and turned his savings into different channels. Whether the noble Lord was or was not sensible of this breach of promise, he could not positively say; but it would appear that the noble Lord was sensible of it, for, although the proper period had long since elapsed—up to the present hour the noble Lord had shirked—he (Mr. Baring) could not use a more appropriate term—making any exposition respecting the taxation of the country,
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and, apparently fearful lest some financial statement should be required of him before the surplus revenue was exhausted, he had commissioned the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, to announce the intended reduction of several taxes. Now, he thought the agricultural interests had great reason to complain of such treatment. Every practicable reduction in taxation, ought, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, to have been applied to those taxes which pressed on the farming population; and when the Bill embodying the Resolution agreed to the other night was brought in, he would certainly give it every opposition in his power. Than the Resolution for the reduction of taxation, to which he alluded, anything more futile in itself—or directed to more useless objects—could not, in his opinion, have been framed; and he confidently expected the public would, ere long, be of the same opinion. When the great mass of the agricultural population were in a state bordering on starvation, the attention of his Majesty's Ministers was directed to the reduction of the duties on the dry fruits imported into the country. When the great interest of agriculture was threatened with a ruin which it could only escape by a speedy, nay, he would say, an immediate reduction of taxation, down came his Majesty's Ministers to Parliament and proposed, that the duties on currants, raisins, and olive oil, should be reduced. If he (Mr. Baring) were called on to select out of the whole list of Customs duties the reduction of which would give the least possible relief to the public, he declared on his honour, he would have named those selected by the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade. With the exception of the duty on oil used in manufactures, not one of those proposed to be reduced would benefit the community. With that sole exception they belonged exclusively to articles of luxury, alone consumed by the wealthier classes. Whenever the Bill came before the House, he repeated he would give it every opposition in his power, and he would, at the same time, attempt to show that the regulation which would allow of the exportation of British coal to countries competing in manufactures with England was not only ill-advised, but extremely dangerous. He would be prepared to contend, that the selection announced by the right hon. Gentleman was, under all

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the circumstances, the most wanton and absurd that could possibly have been made. To the speech the noble Lord had made that evening, he had listened with the greatest attention. All he would say of it was, that it was perfectly in character with its predecessors on the same subject. Although the noble Lord did not vote against the agricultural interests, he took good care on every possible occasion to do them as much injury as he possibly could by the speeches with which his votes were accompanied. On no occasion did the noble Lord omit to say, how very little the agricultural interest was in his opinion entitled to protection. Taking this circumstance into consideration, and also taking into consideration the fact that it was in the power of the Government by the exercise of its influence in that House to command a majority on any question brought before it, he thought it was not surprising that the landed interest of the country should look with jealousy and mistrust, as well on the Ministry who could so far control the action of the House of Commons, as on the House of Commons which permitted itself to be so blindly led by the Ministry. How far the noble Lord conscientiously discharged his duty in so frequently availing himself of his chance power to meet every question with a prepared majority of two to one he left it to himself to determine. It was undoubtedly true, as stated by the hon. Member who spoke last, that the great difficulty under which the farmer laboured, was insufficiency of prices. He could not, however, agree with him in opinion, that the farmer would be benefited by such a change in the currency as would make him receive for a quarter of corn eighty pieces of silver, each of the value of sixpence, instead of receiving for the same quantity, as at present, forty pieces, value one shilling each. The increase in the supply of corn from Ireland, and the price at which the growers of corn there were able, owing to the cheapness of labour and the absence of poor-rates, to send it into the market, had tended much to increase the distress of the English farmer. The hon. member for Middlesex had complained of the farmers forming associations; but in his humble opinion, nothing could be more harmless than those very associations. The topics discussed at their meetings related exclusively to agricultural pursuits; and
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if the hon. Member would trust himself at one of them, he would soon be convinced of their superiority in every respect over the meetings of town societies. They had at all events one merit at least in his eyes, on no occasion was treason or doctrines tending to the injury of any other class in the community ever broached among their members. Allusion had been made to the price of French corn in contrast with that of English growth; but he cautioned the House against being led away by the argument which was founded on the difference. The public papers were teeming with articles founded on this comparison; but he knew well from what party such articles sprung. They originated entirely with those who sought to disturb the existing laws; but who, in their eagerness to attain their object, never thought it worth while inquiring how far the arguments they used were based on a solid or defensible foundation. The difference between the prices of French and English corn he took to be very trifling, all things considered. In the northern parts of France—at Rouen and at Havre—the average price of corn was 40 s. per quarter, while in England it was 47 s. or 48 s.; but when it was taken into consideration that the taxation of the latter country was nearly double that of the former, it must appear that prices were not as high in England as in France. In France, moreover, the prices were constantly fluctuating, while in England they remained for the most part constant. The great misfortune attending the taxation of the farmer was, that his taxes were for the most part of a character not immediately reducible by Parliament. Nearly all the high roads of the country, the maintenance of the police, the execution of criminal justice, the support of the Church, were charged upon the farmers. The Parliamentary taxes were small in amount as compared to the local taxes, and yet the farmer contributed quite as much to the State, if not more than his town neighbour. It was urged, that the price of bread ought to be made as low as possible. He thought so too; but still he would caution the House not to reduce its present amount in compliance with the demands of those who, as soon as they obtained their professed object, would turn their combination to secure a participation in luxuries not necessary for their comfort or station. While on the subject of the Corn-laws,

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he would take the opportunity to observe, there was a subject connected with them well worthy of more attention than his Majesty's Government seemed disposed to afford it: he meant the general belief that foreign corn was surreptitiously imported in large quantities as the produce of Canada and the Channel Islands. Although the right hon. Gentleman denied, that there was any ground for the rumour, he felt called upon to say he believed the fact was as stated. Indeed, if proof were wanting of the fact, at all events as far as the Isle of Man was concerned, it was to be found in the circumstance, that several establishments in that island, which, a few years ago, were worth nothing, had of late years become extremely wealthy. It might be true, that no very great amount of corn found its way surreptitiously into England; but if only a single quarter made its way in such a manner it spoke very much against the system, and demanded the serious attention of the proper authorities. As far, at all events, as the Isle of Man was concerned, he repeated, the case was capable of proof, and he submitted that a restriction should be imposed either on foreign corn imported into that island, or on all corn exported from it to England. He was not just then prepared to say how far the islands of Guernsey and Jersey were chargeable with the surreptitious introduction of foreign corn; but he believed it was an ascertained fact, that both those Islands sent into England the whole amount of their produce, and depended upon the foreign markets for a supply for home consumption. Such a proceeding might not be illegal; but it certainly was in direct contravention of the spirit and intention of the Corn-laws. The intention of the law in sanctioning the introduction of the Channel Island produce was to afford a market for the excess of produce over the home consumption, not that the entire produce should be exported to England, and that the home consumption of those Islands should be supplied by the foreign market. With regard to Canada, a similar cause of complaint existed. In the year 1828, Canada did not send more than 4,000 or 5,000 quarters of corn to Great Britain, while at present it contributed no less than 100,000 quarters. Such an increase could only be accounted for by what in his own mind he was satisfied was the fact; namely, that the United
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States supplied by far the greatest portion of it. Surely, however, such was not the intention of the Corn-laws in sanctioning the introduction of Canadian grain? The agriculturists had a right to look with jealousy towards a Government that could permit such a system, and was formed upon a theory correspondent with it. It was impossible for men to divest themselves of the notion that this subject could not be looked after very closely by those who did not approve of protecting duties. He had many doubts if any pains were taken in Canada to prevent the corn coming from the United States being shipped for England. It was impossible to provide against this course of trade, unless the bonding system were to be introduced into Canada. Where there was a boundary of 1,200 miles it was impossible to prevent such a violation of the law. If it were really the intention of Parliament that no protection should be afforded to the agricultural interest, let Parliament at once say so; but if the law said the reverse, it was the duty of the Government to see, that the law was respected and duly enforced. In the Isle of Man, in the Channel Islands, the Isles of Guernsey and Jersey, and in the colony of Canada, would be found a case in point. The noble Lord had brought in a Bill last year on the subject of Commutation of Tithes which had died a natural death, and he had brought in another this year which would meet with the same fate; and therefore he would say, that the noble Lord had raised expectations throughout the country that he had not realized. The noble Lord thought to meet all difficulties by his Bill for the alteration of the Poor-laws. He agreed with the noble Lord that that great measure, however it might ultimately work for the general good, could not have an immediately beneficial effect. It could not, in the first instance, effect a reduction of rates, for at its commencement it would impose upon every parish the necessity of a considerable outlay. The noble Lord was mistaken with reference to this Bill. The noble Lord had said, that the system which his Bill was to introduce had been partially tried, and that it had been found to work well in small parishes; but the noble Lord ought to reflect that when it came to be applied to the whole of England it would prove impracticable. If the system had been applied in one single

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parish what had been its effect? It had made the poor shift for themselves, and had obliged them to move into other parishes; but if the Bill were to be tried universally throughout England, it would be impossible for the poor to move from parish to parish, or to provide for themselves. It was, therefore, fallacious to argue that because the system worked well in an isolated parish, it was applicable to the country at large. After the manner in which agricultural distress had been introduced into the speech at the opening of the Session, he conceived that the House might do great good in sending up the proposed Address to the Crown. It would show his Majesty who, in his Speech, had met the House with an expression of his sense of the distresses under which the agricultural interests laboured, that nothing had been done to relieve those distresses, and he thought it would only be becoming in the House to express to his Majesty a hope that these distresses might yet be remedied.
Mr. Fryerreprobated the course pursued. Nothing could be done to benefit the country unless they left the tiller of the soil a fair proportion of its produce. If the tiller of the land improved the land, it was but fair that he should have the reward. Agriculture was not flourishing. The capital of the farmer had diminished, and the labourers could not be employed. What was the reason of this? This was the question. Ay, the question. Why was it so? Why was it so? Why, because the farmers' contract had been made in paper-money, which had been altered in value by a certain Bill. The landlords had kept the farmers to their bargains. ["No, no!"] He said, yes, yes. He maintained that they had. They puffed themselves off for reducing rent this per cent, or that per cent; but this was only to prevent their being obliged to rescind the contracts. The Corn-laws were not repealed only because rent must be kept up; but what had the people to do with rents? The people had nothing to do with rents, mortgages, and debts; no, nothing to do with the national debt. The national debt belonged to the landlords, and the people had no right to be called upon to pay it. The landlords deceived the tenants by holding out to them that the Corn-laws would keep up the price of corn to 80 s. a quarter. Every thing had been taken away
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from the working classes, in order to give to the drones. Then came the remedy to reduce tithes; but the House had rejected this, and yet when the proposition was made to rob the poor by the Poor Law Bill, the House received it with acclamation. The Lord Chancellor said to the nobility take care of your estates. He said to the nobility pass the Poor Law Bill, and they would lose their estates and their lives. The poor in open day would set ricks on lire in sight of each other. The people were ripe for rebellion; they were ripe for incendiarism. What should he say to the people? Some hon. Member said 'Coercion; they would not submit to Coercion; they would fight against it. There would be a Revolution; there was 16,000,000 l. in the savings' banks, and a demand for gold would cause a stoppage of payments." There was but one way for the House to proceed—to throw overboard the agricultural interests; he meant the landowners. The House had to look to the people, and not to any partial interest. The only way to make the agriculturists again prosper was to make them independent of the landlords. Whether they repealed the Poor-laws or not, nothing would save the owners of poor lands. The Corn-law was a wicked Bill. It was an offence against God and man; a crime which ought to be punished.
Mr. Gisbornehad always pressed upon Government the necessity of removing those taxes which pressed upon the land. The landed interest had been enamoured of its burthens, whilst they were a plea for claiming protection. Now they wished to get rid of their burthens, he should like to know if they would be equally willing to get rid of the protection? He recollected the speech which had been made by the right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth, upon the subject of agricultural distress. He had represented himself as taking a walk with the farmer, and in which their attention was called to all subjects around them, and upon an investigation, in the course of their discussion, it was proved, that there was not one article, which the farmer consumed from the manufacturer, that was not more highly protected than agricultural produce. He (Mr. Gisborne) contended, that the smuggler was the great benefiter of mankind. He was the only corrector of absurd and injurious commercial protection.
Mr. Hawessaid, that if an answer were

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wanted to the speeches at present delivered by some Members of the House, all that was necessary was to refer to the speeches of the same hon. Members previous to the year 1828, which generally contained a complete answer to their arguments. Thus he found, that on the 25th of April, 1828, an hon. Member, now a great landed proprietor, and the Representative of a large agricultural constituency, but then a great merchant, and the Representative of the borough of Callington, was represented to have said, in speaking of the provinces of Holland, 'They were still populous, and had once been extremely opulent and powerful as a manufacturing nation; nor let hon. Gentlemen ever forget, that from that opulence and power, they had declined absolutely from levying enormous duties upon the corn consumed by their subjects. The same fate, resulting from the same cause, as irresistibly awaited this country as one day succeeded another. As to the talk about high prices, the danger of our present system arose, not from positive, but from relative prices. He owned he was amazed at the course which so many Gentlemen had pursued upon this question. How was it possible that any men, having the powers of reasoning or reflection, could come down to that House, day after day, and talk about protection to corn, protection to wool, protection to oak bark—the difference meanwhile in the price of bread between Great Britain and the Continent being, as the difference in favour of the latter, between 25 s. and 64 s. How is it possible, that they should expect we could go on exporting manufactures, as we now did, to the amount of between 50,000,000 l. and 60,000,000 l. a-year, there being this frightful disproportion between the relative prices of corn among ourselves and our continental neighbours.'* If he, connected as he was with manufactures, were to make such an observation, it might possibly be attributed to interested motives; but in supporting such doctrines, he could protect himself under the distinguished sanction of the hon. member for Essex. The hon. Member went on to say, 'Heartily did he wish, that 'some man among them, with honesty in 'his heart, would come down and tell 'them plainly, it was their duty to consider, 'not how they might get in their own
*Hansard (new series) xiv. p. 154.
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proper rents for that particular year or so, but how the country was to subsist with its establishments for the next twenty or fifty years. But, on the contrary, he declared with pain, that whenever the Corn Question came on for discussion, it was argued by them on the most selfish and narrow-minded principles, that any Legislature ever condescended to listen to.'* He fully agreed with the hon. Member, that the country was sacrificed to selfish and narrow-minded views; and he would say no more than that he opposed the doctrines of the hon. member for Essex by those of the hon. member for Callington.
Mr. Baringexplained, that the speech alluded to had been made by him, not in opposition to a protecting duty, but in resistance of a demand to augment the then rate of protection. He did not now possess a single acre of land that he had not possessed in 1828, and therefore he could have no interested motives for the view he had just taken of the subject.
Mr. William Petersaid, that though he did not believe that the agricultural distress was either so overwhelming, or so universal as had been described by the noble Marquess, still he feared that it did prevail in many parts of the kingdom, and to a considerable degree. Widely as Gentlemen might differ about cause and remedy, there could be little doubt, he regretted to say, as to the existence of the fact. Various causes had been assigned for it. In some of the petitions then lying on the Table, it had been ascribed to free trade—to the system of bonding and ware-housing foreign corn without payment of duty—and to the great importation of cattle and grain from Ireland. In other petitions, with more reason, the causes stated were taxes, tithes, poor-rates, and currency; and some of these, more especially taxes, currency, and mal-administration of the Poor-laws, might, without doubt, have been, more or less, accessory to the evil. But there was likewise another cause—one which he had not yet heard assigned, but which had much to do with the present distressed state of the agriculturists—he meant a bad system of husbandry—a reluctance on the part of farmers to adopt improvements and to keep pace with the times. No doubt but agriculture had everywhere more or less improved,
*Hansard new series) xiv. p. 154

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but not in proportion to the improvements which had taken place in other arts. What would have been the situation of our miners and our manufacturers, had they advanced no faster? Why, instead of being in their present comparatively flourishing condition—instead of enjoying, as they did, the markets of the world—they would have been, he did not hesitate to say, in even a worse state than any of the agriculturists. He was confirmed in this view of the case by what he had himself seen in different parts of the country. He had seen lands enjoying every natural advantage—a good soil—a good climate—a good situation—and yet with all around, landlords, tenants, and labourers—all discontented, all impoverished and wretched. Again, he had seen other lands, possessed of few or none of these advantages, where the picture was altogether the reverse, where the landlords were receiving their full rents, the tenants growing rich, and the labourers employed and happy. He had visited one large district in particular, the soil of which was naturally poor, and fifty years ago did not average to its proprietor 5s. an acre, but which now returned more than 20 s. an acre. And yet there was not a single complaint. The landlord, the occupiers, and labourers, were all equally satisfied and happy. The former stated, that there was not a shilling of his rents in arrear; the latter said, that although they had heard of distress in some parts of England, they knew nothing of the kind in their neighbourhood. Now, to what was this striking and extraordinary difference in different parts of the same island to be attributed? Why, chiefly, to the difference of the mode of husbandry. In the one case, there had been introduced a new and improved system; in the other, all the vices of the old system were still allowed to prevail. In the one, by improved machinery, and more skilful labour, they had not only reduced the expense of cultiva-vation, but they had multiplied their produce, increasing it two, three, and in some cases, even fourfold; in the other, they had improved little, or not at all, but had gone plodding on in the ways of their fathers—enemies to all change—trembling at every breath of innovation. This alone would, in a great degree, account for the different condition of the agriculturists in different parts of the kingdom. And if Gentlemen would but refer to the evi-
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dence given before the Agricultural Committee last year, they would find that the greatest distress uniformly prevailed in those districts where there had been least improvement in husbandry. With respect to the prices of agricultural produce, Gentlemen had no right to complain. Wool and cattle sold well. It was true that corn had been low; but he did not see how its price was to be raised except by severer monopolies, which no free country—and especially a manufacturing and commercial one—would be found quietly to submit to. There were already complaints enough against the Corn-laws, without rendering them still more obnoxious to the people. But though the price of corn could not be augmented, the quantity might. By a better system of agriculture than that which prevailed throughout three parts of the kingdom, the land, he was confident, might be made to produce two or three bushels, where it now returned only one; and thus would the farmer be enabled, by the increased quantity, to compensate himself, in some degree for the diminished value of his produce. But whilst he thus contended, that much of the distress was to be imputed to the fault of the agriculturists themselves, he was not insensible to the hardships of their situation, and to the difficulties with which they had, in many instances, to struggle. There were local and general burthens to a fearful amount—there was the interest of an immense Debt—a Debt rendered doubly grievous by the alterations which had taken place in the value of the currency. All these, no doubt, pressed heavily upon national industry, and contributed more or less, to the distress under which agriculture, in many parts of the kingdom, had been so long labouring. But whilst he admitted and deplored these evils, he did not see things in that gloomy and desponding view which had been taken by one of the hon. members for North Yorkshire (Mr. Cayley). However grievous our burthens, however aggravated the sufferings of the people as described by that hon. Gentleman and other Members in the course of the debate, he (Mr. William Peter) was not amongst those who would ever despair of the fortunes of his country. Had any one, in the reign of Queen Anne or George 1st, or even fifty years ago, ventured to foretel the present state of affairs, had any one spoken

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of the burthens, of the 800,000,000 l. of Debt which we were destined to endure—how would his prophecies have been derided!—how would he have been taunted with the utter impracticability of the thing, with the impossibility of the people ever being able to sustain one-half of the burthen! Fortunately, however, our resources had gone on increasing with our wants. The progress of invention—the improvements in machinery—the discoveries in the arts—the increase of production,—had, in most instances, kept pace with the demand, and enabled us to meet and bear up against the increased difficulties of our situation. But he trusted that the time was not far distant when we should see those difficulties greatly mitigated and reduced—when with a wise and economical administration of affairs at home, and a free and enlightened system of commercial policy abroad, we should behold this country, so long the foremost in military valour and renown, equally distinguished for the internal condition, for the comfort, the moral intelligence, and contentment of its population. When he considered the intimate connexion between agriculture, and commerce, and manufactures, and when he saw the vast fields which were opening on our industry and speculations in all quarters of the globe; when he looked at South America, rescued from the dark thraldom of ages—emerging from intestine war—and settling down into just and tranquil Government;—when he looked at the vast regions of the East—at countries with such population, with such extent of coast, and with such resources, as India and China—when he saw these vast, these boundless regions, unbarring their golden portals to the spirit of British Enterprise—opening their harbours to our ships—and their markets to our manufactures—he would say, that however grievous our existing burthens, however difficult, in many respects, our present situation—we could not, we ought not to, despair of the fortunes of our country. With respect to the propositions of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Chandos) they were so vague and indefinite, and so little calculated to promote the object which the noble Marquess professed to have in view, that, even if he had not heard the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he should vote against them. He saw no practical benefit or result to which the proposed
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address could possibly lead. There were two sets of theorists on the subject of agricultural distress, both of whom he thought equally erroneous. There were some political economists, who thought to relieve the agriculturist by throwing all inferior soils out of cultivation; there were others again, the anti-economists, as they styled themselves, who called for new Corn-laws and severer monopolies, in order to keep those soils in cultivation. With both these sets of speculatists he ventured to disagree. He thought them both equally mistaken. He thought, that with a gradual diminution of general and local taxation, with a better administration of the Poor-laws, with a fair commutation of tithes, and above all, with an improved system of husbandry, he thought, that agriculture might again lift up her head, and that few soils would be found, which might not, under such circumstances, be made capable of yielding a due and grateful return to the capital, the industry, and the skill of their cultivators.
Major Handleysaid, that he should be surprised if the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) entertained the opinions which he expressed. If he did entertain such opinions, the agriculturists were insulted with a cruel mockery when a sentence was inserted in the King's Speech expressing his anxious wish to relieve them from distress. He had seen the observation made in a certain periodical, that the King's Speech was like the Royal touch in the King's Evil, namely, a panacea, and the insertion of a few words in it was sufficient to remove distress. Probably the noble Lord entertained this opinion. The noble Lord promised in the early part of the Session that some relief should be afforded by the remission of taxes pressing heavily on the agricultural interests, and that relief would also be afforded by the change in the Poor-laws and by the commutation of tithes. What relief had been afforded to that interest by the remission of taxes? The effect which would be produced by the alterations in the Poor-laws was doubtful; certainly any relief from that source would not be immediate. The commutation of tithes was likely to afford relief, but that had been thrown overboard, and there was no probability of its being carried into effect. The noble Lord might afford relief in some respect, namely, by putting a stop to the present system of

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surcharges. This evil prevailed to a great and most vexatious extent in his part of the country. He recollected that in his county (Lincolnshire) an innkeeper bought an old carriage of a gentleman, which he used as a postchaise. He forgot to erase the armorial bearings, and the consequence was, that he was surcharged for armorial bearings. He should support the Motion.
Mr. Methuenfelt anxious as the Representative of a large agricultural county to state the reason why he could not support the Motion. He was on all occasions anxious to promote the benefit and advantage of his constituents; but he could not support this Motion because it was in a great measure a party question.—["No, no."] Hon. Gentlemen might say "No;" they were right if they believed he was in error, but it was his conscientious belief, and on that account he should oppose the Motion.
Mr. William Duncombethought, that the imputation cast upon his noble friend (the Marquess of Chandos), and those who supported the Motion, were the most unjust that could be uttered. [Mr. Methuen had not imputed motives to any hon. Member.] He understood the hon. Gentleman to charge the noble Marquess with having brought forward the Motion for party purposes, and of course all, according to the hon. Member, who voted for the Motion were actuated by the same views. He (Mr. Duncombe) rose to deny the truth of any such imputations—and to say, that the charge was most unjust; and he was convinced that if there was one man more than another who was actuated by high and pure motives in his public conduct it was the noble Marquess. His noble friend had not brought forward the Motion to benefit the landlords, but the farmers, and he deserved the thanks of the country for his conduct. He thought the repeal of the Malt-tax was well worthy the consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The noble Lord had given the House to understand that he was favourable to the repeal of the Corn-laws; but would the noble Lord vote for the repeal of the Corn-laws, as long as the agricultural portion of the country was so much more heavily taxed than the other classes? The whole amount from the Malt-tax that went into the Exchequer was 5,000,000 l., and at the same time not less than 12,000,000 l. was taken from the pockets of the people.
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Taking into consideration the vexatious interference in the manufacture, the repeal of that tax was both politic and just. It could not be repealed during the present year, but he trusted that another year would not pass over without something being done. If they consented to repeal the duty on the importation of corn they must, as a matter of justice, repeal the Malt-tax. Until he saw a disposition on the part of the Government to relieve the agricultural interests from taxes pressing so heavily on them, he should oppose all change in the Corn-laws.
Sir Robert Pricedid not suppose, that the Motion had been brought forward with any party feelings, but he did not think that any advantage would attend their agreeing to it at the present time. At that late period of the Session it was utterly impossible to repeal any taxes, either local or general; but he thought that it was most satisfactory that his noble friend (Lord Althorp) had promised to consider the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, and see whether he could not grant some relief. Under these circumstances it was hard to press him. He would not go the length of saying, that this was a party question, or brought forward for any party purposes, but he must say, that he looked upon it as an ad captandum question, in order that certain individuals might have to say, "See how the noble Lord and his political friends have voted in favour of the agricultural interest, and see how that vote was negatived by the Ministerial side of the House." On these grounds he could not support the Amendment, and still less as he believed that it could not produce any practical result.
Mr. Waltersaid, that having voted against a previous Motion of the noble Lord's of a somewhat similar tendency, he hoped he might be permitted to explain his reason for voting in favour of the present proposition. It was simply because the present Resolution was more definite and specific in its nature. It proposed to diminish agricultural and, he hoped he might add, every other species of distress, where it existed, by the diminution of taxation. With respect to general taxation, he had no doubt but that it might be materially reduced if the House, in compliance with the call and the necessities of the country, would undertake the task in a more energetic and decisive

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manner than it had hitherto done. He was less sanguine about local taxation, though many schemes had been suggested on that head; but he had seen none yet which promised much relief to the ratepayer: nor did he apprehend that any general relief could be procured by a mere transfer of local taxation to general taxation. This would not be a diminution of burthens but a shifting of burthens. He also considered that there were too many projects afloat for taking off minor taxation, and clapping the charge upon the Consolidated Fund.
Mr. Plumptresaid, that he would vote for the Amendment of the noble Lord; for unless the House upheld the agricultural interest, it must go to ruin.
Major Keppelsaid, that in voting against the Amendment of the noble Marquess, he must protest against its being supposed that he was at all inimical to the agricultural interest. No man was more anxious for the promotion of that interest than he was, but he did not think that the present. Motion could affect it practically in any way. He acknowledged the great distress of the agriculturists, and had anxiously hoped to have heard some remedy suggested; he had heard none. The speeches in favour of the Motion were as vague and delusive as the Motion itself.
Mr. Hodgessaid, that at this time he thought the Motion ill-advised, as he considered it improper to disarrange the financial operations of the year, and on that account he would oppose it; but he hoped that before next Session the Government would take into its consideration the necessity of affording some relief to the country by a diminution of the duty on malt.
The Marquess of Chandossaid, that at that hour, and after the discussion which the subject had undergone, he did not feel it necessary to trespass on the indulgence of the House by any reply to the remarks of those hon. Members who had taken a different view of the question from himself, but he must beg leave to deprecate the notion that he had brought forward this proposition from any party motives. He had not on the present, or on any occasion, introduced the subject from party motives.
The House divided on the Amendment moved by the Marquess of Chandos— Ayes 174; Noes 190: Majority 16.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Goring, H. D.

Agnew, Sir A.

Grimston, Lord

Arbuthnot, Hon. H.

Guise, Sir B. W.

Archdall, M.

Halford, H.

Ashley, Lord

Hall, B.

Astley, Sir J.

Hallyburton, D. G.

Attwood, M.

Handley, B.

Attwood, T.

Handley, H.

Balfour, J.

Handley, W. F.

Bankes, W. J.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Barnard, E. G.

Hanmer, Col.

Baring, A.

Hardinge, Sir H.

Baring, H. B.

Hawkes, E.

Barry, G. S.

Hay, Sir J.

Beauclerk, Major

Hayes, Sir E.

Bell, M.

Heathecote, G. J.

Bernard, W. S.

Henniker, Lord

Blackstone, W. S.

Herbert, Hon. S.

Blake, J.

Herries, J. C.

Bruce, Lord E.

Hill, Sir R.

Bruce, C. L. C.

Hope, H. T.

Brudenell, Lord

Hotham, Lord

Buckingham, J. S.

Houldsworth, T.

Bulwer, H. L.

Hume, J.

Burton, H.

Hurst, R. H.

Calcraft, G.

Inglis, Sir R.

Calvert, N.

Irton, S.

Campbell, Sir H.

Jermyn, Earl

Campbell, Sir J.

Jervis, J.

Cartwright, W. R.

Jolliffe, H.

Cayley, E. S.

Jones, Captain

Cayley, Sir G.

Kennedy, J.

Chapman, A.

Kerrison, Sir E.

Christmas, W.

Lefroy, A.

Clayton, Col. W. R.

Lefroy, T.

Clive, Hon. R.

Lemon, Sir C.

Cole, Hon. A. H.

Lennard, Sir T. B.

Cole, Viscount

Lennox, Lord W.

Corry, Hon. H. L.

Lincoln, Earl of

Curteis, H. B.

Lowther, Hon. Col.

Curteis, Capt. E. B.

Macnamara, Major

Dare, R. W. H.

Manners, Lord R.

Darlington, Earl of

Martin, T. B.

Denison, W. J.

Maxwell, H.

Dillwyn, L.

Maxwell, J. W.

Duffield, T.

Murray, Sir G.

Dugdale, W. S.

Nagle, Sir R.

Duncombe, W.

Neale, Sir H.

Dundas, Capt.

Norreys, Lord

Durham, Sir P. H.

O'Connell, Daniel

Eastnor, Viscount

O'Connell, John

Egerton, W. T.

O'Connell, M.

Ferguson, Capt.

O'Connor, F.

Finch, G.

Palmer, C. F.

Fitzsimon, C.

Parker, Sir H.

Foley, E. T.

Patten, J. W.

Forester, H. C.

Peel, Rt. Hon. Sir R.

Fox, S. L.

Penruddocke, J. H.

Freemantle, Sir T.

Perceval, A.

Fryer, R.

Philips, M.

Gaskell, H.

Pigott, R.

Gillon, W. D.

Plumptre, J. P.

Gladstone, T.

Pollock, F.

Gladstone, W. E.

Poulter, J.

Gordon, Hon. W.

Price, R.

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Rae, Sir W.

Vernon, G. H.

Reid, Sir R. J.

Vigors, N. A.

Rickford, W.

Villiers, Viscount

Rider, T.

Vincent, Sir F.

Roche, W.

Vyvyan, Sir R.

Ross, C.

Wall, C. B.

Ruthven, E. S.

Walsh, Sir J. B.

Ruthven, E.

Walter, J.

Sanford, E. A.

Watkins, L. V.

Scarlett, Sir J.

Welby, G. E.

Shawe, R. N.

Whitmore, T. C.

Simeon, Sir R. G.

Wilks, J.

Sinclair, C.

Williams, Col.

Spry, S. T.

Windham, W. H.

Stanley, E.

Winnington, Captain

Stewart, Sir H.

Wynn, C. W.

Stormont, Viscount

Young, J.

Talbot, C. R. M.

TELLERS.

Talbot, James

Chandos, Marquess of

Thompson, Alderman

Palmer, R.

Thompson, P. B. R.

PAIRED OFF.

Tower, C. T.

Burrell, Sir C.

Townshend, Lord C.

Daly, J.

Trelawney, Sir W. S.

Dick, Q.

Trevor, Hon. G.

Fleetwood, H.

Tyrell, C.

Hope, Hon. Sir A.

Tyrell, Sir J.

Ossulston, Lord

Verner, Col. W.

Smith, T.

Verney, Sir H.

Wood, Colonel T.

CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND).
The Original Question, "That the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Church Temporalities (Ireland) Act, be now read," was agreed to, and the Resolution reported as follows:—
Resolved,—That it is the opinion of this Committee, that any defect which may arise in the funds accruing to the Commissioners of his Majesty's Woods, Forests, Laud Revenues, Works, and Buildings, under the provisions of any Act which may be passed during the present Session of Parliament, and applicable to the payments to be made under such Act, to the parties now entitled to tithe compositions in Ireland, shall be advanced and made good out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom; and that so much of the money so advanced as shall be applicable to any payments to be made to ecclesiastical persons, shall be repaid out of the monies arising to the credit of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland, in the Perpetuity Purchase Fund account, to be kept by the said Ecclesiastical Commissioners, pursuant to the provisions of an Act passed in the last Session of Parliament, intituled "An Act to alter and amend the laws relating to the Temporalities of the Church of Ireland."
On the Question that the Resolution be read a second time,
Mr. Humesaid, that he should oppose the Motion for agreeing to the Resolution; and he thought that every hon. Member who voted for the last Motion, for an Address to the Crown praying for a general reduction of the taxation of the country, was bound to support him in this instance. The landed interest, as well as every other class of persons in the community, would be greatly relieved by a general reduction of taxation, for taxation affected all interests alike. The Government had no right to call upon the people of this country to contribute to the support of a sinecure Church Establishment; and he repeated, that those who supported the last Motion were bound to vote with him on the present occasion. He hoped the House would not consent to make any such grant out of the Consolidated Fund for any such purpose as that to which this money was to be applied.
An Hon. Memberdenied that the Motion of the noble Marquess meant a reduction of taxation generally.
Mr. Humeinsisted that it did.
The Hon. Memberasserted that it did not. The reduction of taxation proposed by the noble Marquess had reference only to the landed interest, and, therefore, the word "general" was a humbug.
Mr. Curteissaid, that for his part he never would, and he was satisfied his constituents never would, consent to pay any portion of the Irish tithes. He was bound to give such a proposition every possible opposition, and he must say, that he thought it most unjustifiable to call on the people of England to pay any portion of a burthen which ought to any exclusively on the landlords of Ireland.
The House divided—Ayes 181; Noes 106: Majority 75.
The Resolution agreed to, and the Committee on the Tithes Bill (Ireland) directed to make provision accordingly.

LORD'S DAY OBSERVANCE (No. 2).
Mr. Poulter Mr. Poulter moved the third reading of the Lord's Day Bill (No. 2).
Mr. O'Dwyerobjected to the third reading of this Bill being brought on at that late hour (half-past two).
Mr. Tookealso objected to proceeding with the Bill at so late an hour.
Mr. Poultersaid, he should persist in his Motion.
Mr. Tooke Mr. Tooke moved, that the third reading be adjourned to Monday next.
The House divided on this Motion—Ayes 39; Noes 19: Majority 20.
The third reading was then fixed for the ensuing Monday.

List of the NOES.

Baines, E.

Littleton, Rt. Hn. E. J.

Baring, F.

Pease, J.

Brotherton, J.

Perceval, Colonel

Ewing, J.

Plumptre, J. P.

Forster, C. S.

Sandon, Lord

Hardy, J.

Sheppard, T.

Harland, W. C.

Vyvyan, Sir R.

Hughes, W. H.

Williams, W. A.

Inglis, Sir R.

TELLERS.

Jerningham, Hon. H.

Cayley, E.

Langdon, Hon. C.

Poulter, J.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Insolvent Debtors (Ireland); Courts of Equity.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of WELLINGTON, Lord ROLLE, the Bishop of CARLISLE, the Duke of BUCKINGHAM, Lord KENYON, the Bishop of LONDON, the Earl of HAREWOOD, and Lord STRADBROKE, from a Number of Places,—for Protection to the Established Church.—By the Bishop of LONDON and Lord KENYON, from the Poulterers of London; and from the Wesleyans of Bolton-le-Moor,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By the Duke of HAMILTON, from Arran, for Protection to the Church—By the Earl of ABINGDON and the Earl of HAREWOOD, from Places in Berkshire and Yorkshire,— against the Admission of Dissenters to the Universities; also by the Bishop of CARLISLE, the Duke of BUCKINGHAM, the Bishop of EXETER, and Lord KENYON, from a Number of Places,—to the same effect.—By the Earl of DURHAM, and Lord DENMAN, from Dissenters at Castle Cary and St. George's in the East, and other Places,—in favour of the Dissenters.

CHURCH COMMISSION (IRELAND).
The Earl of Wicklowpresented a Petition, very numerously signed, from the Protestant inhabitants of the parish of Kilbucar, in the county of Westmeath, praying for the revocation of the Irish Ecclesiastical Commission. The petitioners declared, that they viewed this measure with deep apprehension, and that the whole Protestant population of Ireland were greatly alarmed at it. They were the more astonished at such a measure having been adopted, since it had been stated by two influential Members of his Majesty's Government that opinions were divided on the subject.
Earl Greydid not know where this information came from, but of this he was certain, that no person could, consistently with his duty, disclose any circumstances that had occurred in the Cabinet. A communication had, at an early period, been received from the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, and in consequence the subject had been taken into consideration. He did not mean to deny, that the individuals alluded to, had a right to offer objections to the step proposed to be taken, if they thought proper; but he must say, that it was irregular to state what had taken place in the Cabinet.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that what he had said in explanation on a former occasion, in consequence of what fell from his noble friend opposite, was not stated without the express sanction of his

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Sovereign. In cases of that sort, when the honour of an individual was concerned, he was anxious for the House to know that he had not stated anything without that sanction. In consequence of despatches from the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, recommending that a Commission should issue, the subject was taken into consideration, and from that time till he left the Cabinet, he heard nothing further about it. That, he believed, was exactly what took place.
Earl Greysaid, his noble friend's declaration, that he had received his Majesty's permission to state what he had done, was perfectly correct; but as he had received no such permission, he could not, consistently with his obligation as a Cabinet Minister, disclose what passed on the occasion referred to. He was sure, that his noble friend meant to state correctly what had happened, and he (Earl Grey) did not feel it necessary to say more than this—namely, that the question was, at a very early period indeed, brought under the consideration of the King's Ministers, despatches having been received with reference to the subject from the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, and it was again taken up, and most maturely considered, before the measure was decided on.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Lord Wharncliffehaving presented a petition from the Liverpool Guardian Society for protection to trade, took the opportunity of adverting to the state of the public business in that House. They had now arrived at the 7th of July, and, as yet, very little had been done. He had hoped, that the business would have been so managed between the two Houses, that all the Bills of consequence would not have been put off till a period which rendered it quite impossible to proceed with them in that deliberate manner which measures of importance required. Very many important questions were yet to be brought under their consideration, and now they had arrived at the 7th of July. Any one of the subjects to which he had alluded would take a very considerable time to deal with it properly. In that House, they at present had the Poor-laws' Bill, which would require most laborious investigation. Then there were in the House of Commons the Irish Tithes' Bill, the Church Temporalities' Bill, the General Registry Bill, the Church-rates Bill, the Bill relative to the imprisonment
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for debt, and several Bills for altering the Criminal Law of the country, such as the Capital Punishment Bill, and the Punishment of Death Bill. There were also the Bill for the Registration of Votes and the Bribery Bill. All these subjects were of sufficient importance to call for the most serious consideration; and yet, at so late a period, how would it be in their Lordships power to bestow that necessary consideration on them? He could, for his own part, see nothing in the mode of doing business in the other House of Parliament to lead him to believe that the country would be satisfied if those measures were passed without due notice being taken of them in that House. That several of these measures would be beneficial, he did not mean to deny; and in the principle of some of them he concurred; but he hoped, that their Lordships would not agree to one of them as a mere matter of course, and he was convinced, that if this House did its duty, many of these Bills would not be passed this Session, on account of the shortness of time. With respect to the Poor-laws Bill, he did not believe there was one class of persons in the country who properly understood it, or who were aware of the consequences that were likely to arise from it. Should these measures be introduced this Session, he should be obliged to oppose several of them, on account of the shortness of the time allowed for their consideration.
Earl Greyadmitted, that the measures alluded to by the noble Lord were very important. It must, however, be confessed that no time had been wasted by the other House of Parliament. They had sat, throughout the Session, from 12 o'clock in the morning until a very late hour at night; and therefore any delay that had taken place was not to be imputed to them. Some of those Bills were of such a nature that he trusted their Lordships would pass them in the present Session, and more particularly that of which it would be his duty to propose the second reading to-morrow. The noble Lord said, that the country was not aware of the principles and provisions of that Bill. That he did not think was the case. When he considered the time that had elapsed since the Report of the Poor-law Commissioners was laid before Parliament—the time that had been taken in discussing the measure in another place, and the constant communication of those discussions to the public—when he recollected that no pains had been spared, not

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to inform the public, but to excite the feelings and prejudices of the public against the measure—when he considered these different points, he could not think, that the public, and particularly that portion of the public who were most seriously interested in the Administration of the Poor-laws, were not aware, not only of the principles and objects of the Bill, but even of its minute details. With respect to the other Bills, a list of which the noble Lord had given, he felt that it would be hardly possible to expect some of them to be passed in the present Session. Amongst those Bills there were two for effecting alterations in the Criminal-law of the country. Those were the Capital Punishments Bill, and the Punishment of Death Bill. There was also a Bill granting counsel to prisoners in cases of felony, and also a Bill for altering the law with respect to imprisonment for debt. Of these measures he did not wish to give any opinion. He certainly was not for a general and indiscriminate rejection of these Bills; but he felt that they were subjects that ought to be extremely well considered. Alterations of so important a nature ought not to be made on the mere suggestions of individuals, but should be founded on the mature judgment of persons competent to decide on their propriety. He therefore should wish, with the noble Lord, that those Bills should lie over to another Session. There was another reason why it would be desirable to defer proceeding with those measures, and that was because, in his opinion, it was necessary before such alterations were effected, that something should be done with respect to a system of secondary punishments, to which subject the noble Lord had already turned his attention. Till some particular system could be laid down with reference to secondary punishments, he thought it would be better that such alterations should lie over. There were, however, several measures of very great importance, to which he hoped the House would pay due attention, and pass them in the present Session.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, the measures respecting the alteration of the Criminal-law, to which reference had been made, were unquestionably of the utmost importance. But there was one Bill, which respected imprisonment for debt, that it would, in his opinion, be impossible for their Lordships to pass in the present Session. Indeed, he doubted whether the other House could agree to it in this Session of Parliament; but he was certain
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that it was hopeless to expect that their Lordships would make so great a change in the law without very mature consideration. At the same time, he thought the object of the Bill was most beneficial. Here he begged leave to state, on behalf of his hon. and learned friend (the Attorney General) in whose hands the measure was, and in answer to complaints made out of doors—in answer to attacks that had been most ignorantly and unnecessarily launched at him, that his hon. and learned friend could not possibly have brought forward this Bill one day sooner. Those who had attacked his hon. and learned friend had gone so far as to state, that though at the time his hon. and learned friend was out of Parliament, yet he had previously been in Parliament long enough to have carried the Bill half a dozen times over. Now, how stood the fact? Parliament met on the 4th of February, and on the 20th his hon. and learned friend, having accepted the situation of Attorney General, of course vacated his seat. So that, according to those persons, there was time enough between the 4th and 20th of February to carry a measure of this complicated and difficult nature. He had introduced it the moment he had taken his seat, and it was no fault of his that the measure was not more forward. As to the Bills relating to the alterations in the Criminal-law, he agreed with his noble friend, that it was of the greatest importance that the subject should be taken up on a more systematic principle than had heretofore been the case. He could not help hoping, that the Criminal-law Commissioners, several of whom were deeply versed in this matter, and who combined sound practical knowledge with a perfect acquaintance with jurisprudence, would have their attention drawn to this subject during the ensuing vacation, and that before the next Session of Parliament they would produce a Report with reference to it. In that Report they would be able to direct the attention of Parliament to those changes that it would be proper to make, as well as to those points where change would be necessary. This would enable Parliament to legislate with much better effect. Wish respect to any delay which had taken place in the other House, it could not be attributed to any deficiency of assiduity. During the whole Session, they had sat in the morning from twelve till three; and their evening sittings extended frequently till four or five o'clock the ensuing morning. For his own part,

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he did not know, if they were to carry the measure to which allusion had been more particularly made, how they could possibly have done more than they had done. This was not the first time complaints had been made similar to that advanced by the noble Lord. Every Session since he had sat there, and indeed long before either the noble Lord or himself had a seat in that House, the delay of business had been a regular source of complaint. Indeed, a late noble friend of his, the Duke of Norfolk, annually made a complaint on the subject, nearly in the same words as were used by the noble Lord, and standing also in nearly the same place which the noble Lord now occupied. The Woolsack was at that time occupied by Lord Thurlow, and when the noble Duke made his complaint it was generally received with a rebuke by the Lord Chancellor. Lord Thurlow said, that they in that House had no right to know, that the end of the Session was approaching. That was a matter that concerned the Royal breast alone; and he understood from his noble friend near him (Lord Holland) that the noble Lord, his predecessor on the Woolsack, had upon one occasion called the noble Duke, to order when making his complaint. Let, therefore, the noble Lord who now complained congratulate himself that he lived in so mild a reign. He was not called to order; he was suffered to make his remarks; and it was very proper that the noble Lord should do so. He thought that what was complained of was a great evil, because in consequence of measures being introduced very late in the Session, many of them did not receive that sifting examination which the House was competent to bestow on them.
The Duke of Cumberlandrequested to be informed as to the course intended to be taken with the Non-Residence and Pluralities Bills.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he had formerly stated, that if he found that a sufficient opportunity was not given to the clergy in the country to understand that Bill which more immediately affected their interests than it affected the interests of the right reverend Prelates in that House—if he found that, as a measure of justice towards those meritorious and laborious men, the working clergy, further time should be given them for examining the details of the measure—he would willingly afford them that opportunity by letting the
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Bill lie over; indeed, he was ready, if necessary, to take that course, not with respect to one of those Bills, as had been incorrectly stated, but with reference to both of them, for it would be absurd to postpone one without postponing the other.
Lord Suffieldobserved, that when it was known that crime had greatly increased, and when the Government either had not the opportunity or the inclination to take up the subject of the Criminal-law, it was a little too much to say, that no individual in either House of Parliament should stand forward to effect such alterations in the law as the public safety and security required. He meant not to impugn the conduct of his Majesty's Government, but it was a little too much to say, that if they would not do that which was right, therefore no one else should do it. The measure that related to capital punishment had been much discussed in the House of Commons. Great alterations had been suggested in it, some of them by a Law Officer of the Crown, and if that did not afford a reason why Ministers should not oppose it when it came into that House, then he despaired of finding a more conclusive one.
The subject was dropped.

SUPPRESSION OF DISTURBANCES (IRELAND).
On the Order of the Day for going into a Committee on the Suppression of Disturbances (Ireland) Bill being read,
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, he would take that opportunity, as he did not mean to propose any Amendment, to make one or two observations. On the evening when the noble Earl brought forward this Bill, he felt some surprise that the noble Earl had not alluded to the improvement in the Juries of that country to which it related. He had removed an odious clause (the Court-martial clause), for such he always considered it—a clause which nothing but the actual and urgent necessity of the case could justify. Now, when the noble Earl stated, that he had made that alteration, he expressed his surprise, that the noble Earl had not given the House any information to enable them to understand distinctly why he had taken that course. He had stated his satisfaction at the alteration, but he wished to know distinctly the grounds on which it had been made. In looking at the voluminous documents that had been laid on their Lordships' Table, he found, that neither the

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Lord Lieutenant, nor the Judges of Assize, nor the Lieutenants of counties, nor the Assistant Barristers, nor the Magistrates, had given any information which could enable the House to understand on what precise grounds the alteration had been made. He hoped that information existed which could be alleged in justification of the change, and if the noble Earl stated, that he was in possession of such information, he should be satisfied, although it were not adduced. Last Session, simultaneously with the Coercion Bill, the noble Earl brought forward a measure for changing the venue for one year, and he had suggested to the noble Earl the propriety of continuing that Bill for five years. The noble Earl said, he thought it better to pass the Change of Venue Bill for one year in the first instance, as an accompanying measure to the Coercion Bill, but it would be open to any noble Lord to call for the renewal of it this Session, if it were considered desirable. Their Lordships were about to dispense with that part of the measure (the Court-martial clauses) which was last year considered so necessary; they were about to leave cases for trial in the hands of the Courts of Law, as usual; and he wished to learn from the noble Earl, whether, under such circumstances, he considered it necessary to propose the renewal of the Change of Venue Bill.
Earl Greysaid, it was true, that the ground on which the extraordinary power of trying offences by Courts-martial was called for, consisted partly in the intimidation which prevented Juries from discharging their duty; and he was certainly liable to blame for omitting, through a defect of memory, to explain the grounds on which it was intended not only to leave out that clause, but to abstain from a renewal of the Change of Venue Bill. There were certainly no papers formally applicable to the point, among those laid before Parliament; but he could assure the noble Earl and the House, that the Government were not inattentive to the matter, and that they saw reason to be satisfied, that the powers conferred by the Protection Act might be left to the ordinary tribunals of the country. It was under this impression, and acting on the information that had reached them on the subject, that Ministers recommended the omission of the Courts-martial clauses. Among other authorities he might refer to that of Lord Oxmantown, as proposing, that offences should be disposed of by the ordinary tribunals. From the general in-
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formation which reached them, and acting on the notoriety of the fact, that Juries did not hesitate to discharge their duty, Government had brought forward the Bill as it now stood. A noble Lord on the cross-benches stated, that the conduct of the Juries at the last spring Assizes had satisfied him, that the trial of offences might safely be left to the Courts of Common-law. The Change of Venue Bill was founded on the same apprehension which gave rise to the Courts-martial clauses—namely, that Juries would not venture to do their duty; but the grounds of that apprehension being now removed, there did not appear to be any sufficient reason for re-enacting the Change of Venue Bill any more than the Courts-martial clauses. Whether, in the present improved condition of Ireland, they would renew the Change of Venue Bill, it was for their Lordships to consider; but he was inclined to think that Parliament should do what it could to avoid a recurrence to such a measure. He did not at present propose to renew that Bill, but if it should appear necessary to do so, in consequence of any change of circumstances, he would not shrink from his duty.
The Duke of Buckinghamexpressed the deep regret which he felt at finding himself again obliged to concur in a Bill so much opposed to and so destructive of the best principles of the Constitution. He had stated last year, that not being able to place confidence in the Ministry of the day, be nevertheless felt bound to assent to their unconstitutional Coercion Bill, because he thought that the safety of the country required such a measure. If he felt a degree of difficulty then with respect to the Bill, it was doubled and trebled now, when the Administration was placed in hands in which he could see no security whatever for the safety of any of our establishments. He might here observe, that whatever difference might have arisen between some of the Ministers on the subject, the Marquess Wellesley (as appeared from the papers on the Table) had never ceased to express his anxiety for the renewal of the present measure. In agreeing to the Bill, he felt that Ireland was severely punished for having listened to the appeals made to her passions, and attended to the cries "to agitate," which had proceeded from various quarters the highest as well as the lowest.
Earl Greysaid, that the noble Duke acknowledged that the state of Ireland was such as to make the re-enactment of a

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severe law—such he must admit the present Bill to be—absolutely necessary; but, although he acknowledged this to be a very severe law, he did not wish to hazard the excitement of an unnecessary degree of feeling against it by describing the measure, with the noble Duke, as a violation and destruction of the Constitution. He acknowledged the Bill, however, to be one of great severity, beyond the principles and ordinary practice of the Constitution, and such as could he justified only by a peculiar and urgent state of things. On this ground the noble Duke himself concurred in the measure, although he felt disposed to place less confidence now than ever in Ministers. He did not expect the noble Duke's approbation. He felt satisfied that the noble Duke consented to strengthen the hands of Ministers with powers which he admitted to be necessary, although they excited his disgust. As to the use that Ministers would make of those powers, he appealed to the use that they had already made of them, and he asked, whether the powers of this unhappy law, so he would term it, had not been exercised with the greatest moderation, though with all necessary firmness? Could there be any doubt that Ministers would act in future as they had done heretofore? But there seemed to be some strange disquiet in the noble Duke's mind, the source of which he did not well understand, for, dreading the designs of Ministers against existing establishments, the noble Duke appeared to have a latent fear, that the present measure might be turned against them, in what manner, however, was not very intelligible. The noble Duke talked of appeals in favour of agitation from quarters high and low. It was to prevent agitation and its consequences, which he (Earl Grey) had always opposed, that the present law was proposed. Of the noble Duke's confidence, he was unhappily deprived, and must bear the loss as he might; but he should persevere in doing to the utmost of his ability, and in the best way be could, his duty to his Sovereign and his country.
The House went into Committee on the Bill, the Clauses of which were agreed to.
The House resumed.

BODIES OF CRIMINALS.
Lord Suffield, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that its object was to abolish the practice of hanging criminals in chains —a practice unsuited to the present state of public feeling. Indeed, he was at a
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loss to find any reason for continuing such a practice, the only effect of which was, that of scaring children, and brutalizing the minds of the people. It could produce no good moral effect whatever. The object of the Bill was to repeal so much of the law as gave the option to Judges in England and Ireland to hang the bodies of certain criminals in chains, and to direct, instead, that they should be buried within the precincts of the prison. If there must be vengeance on the judgments of the law, surely burying the bodies within the precincts of the prison was carrying that vengeance as far as it ought to be pursued. The noble Lord concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill, which was agreed to.