Sitting of 28 February 1834

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Illegal Securities—Read a second time:—North American Postage; Marine Mutiny.—Committed:—Smuggling Act Amendment;
Petitions presented. By Mr. ROCHE, from Borer, for the Abolition of Tithes.—By Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL, from Romney Marsh, for the Abolition of the Horse Tax.—By Mr. HEATHCOTE, and Lord CAVENDISH, from several Places, for Extending the Term of the Labourers' Employment Act.—By Messrs. CAYLEY, PEASE, LOCK, MANGLES, WILKS, RUSSELL, WARD, and BENETT, and by Sir GEORGE SKIPWITH, Sir CHARLES COCKERELL, and Colonel DAVIES, from a Number of Places, for Relief to the Dissenters.—By Mr. ROEBUCK, from Bath, for Corporation Reform.—By Mr. WARD, from Westminster, for an Inquiry into the State of the Sewers in the Metropolis By Mr. BLACKBURN, Mr. SINCLAIR, and Mr. ANDREW JOHNSTON, for an Alteration in the System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By Messrs. SHEIL, F. O'CONNOR, FITZGERALD, and FITZSIMON, and by Colonel BITLER, from several Places, for the Abolition of Tithes By Lord ACHESON, Colonel BUTLER, and Messrs. SHEIL, F. O'CONNOR, FINN, and C. FITZSIMON,—for the Repeal of the Union.—By Mr. BLAKE, from certain Prisoners in the Town of Galway, against Imprisonment for Debt.—By Mr. BLACKBURN, from Hayley and Clent, for the Repeal of the Sale of Beer Act.—By Lord CAVENDISH, from three Places, for the Abolition of Tithes.—By Mr. HOLDSWORTH, and Mr. Ross, from two Places, against any Measures tending to weaken the Efficiency of the Church of England.—By Messrs. LYALL and BROTHERTON, from Carnarvon, and St. Peter's, Cornhill, for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Mr. WALLACE, from Greenock, for making Steam Vessels pay an equitable portion of Lighthouse Duties.—By Mr. CHRISTMAS, from Waterford, that Vessels trading to and from that Port may not be subject to Compulsory Charges for Pilotage, &c.

SUGAR DUTIES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,
Lord Althorpsaid, that in rising to propose the continuance of the Sugar Duties agreeably to the notice he had given, it would not he necessary for him to trouble the Committee with any details. It was not his intention to suggest any alteration in those duties; taking into consideration the general pressure of taxation, he did not think that any reduction of them would be expedient, nor would it he wise to introduce any change in the proportions in which they were levied. The great measure of last year which was yet only in the in-
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fancy of its operation seemed to render it peculiarly improper to deprive the planters of the West Indies of any advantage they at present enjoyed. To do that might endanger the success of the experiment, which there was now every reason to hope would succeed to the utmost extent of the most sanguine expectations. He should merely move, therefore, the continuance of the Sugar Duties; but to do that he should propose that the renewal should not extend to the 5th of April, which would be four quarters, but to the 5th of July as formerly, which would be five. The change in this respect had been made at a time when it was thought the duties might perhaps he reduced, and they were, therefore, only taken for three-quarters of a year. The 5th of July was, on other accounts, the most convenient period, at which these duties should terminate. He would mention one. It was desirable to vote the estimate before the ways and means, and, acting on that principle, it might happen that the sugar duties, if taken only till next April, might lapse before the House could pass an Act to renew them. As he did not, however, anticipate that any objection would be made to his Motion, he should content himself with moving, "that towards raising; the supply, the several duties on sugar and molasses imposed by the Act 1 William 4th, and the bounties thereon, should be further continued.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonhad hoped that after 20,000,000 l. had been given to the West-Indian Proprietors last year, something should be done for the East India colonists this year. It seemed to him that no opportunity could have been more favourable for equalizing the duties on East and West-India sugar than the present, for the duties upon the sugars respectively produced in the East and West Indies were now most unjustly disproportioned. They ought to have been equalized some time ago. The East-Indians had as fair a claim upon the justice of Parliament, as the West-Indians, and had as good a right to expect that their interests should be consulted. He had expected that a petition would this day have been laid before the House from a great and influential body connected with the trade of the East Indies, but in truth their claim did not require to be enforced, since it was self-evident. He did not mean to divide the House, nor to make any specific proposition upon the subject, but he was certain that the planters of India would not be satisfied until they were put upon

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the same footing as the planters of the most favoured part of the King's dominions. It was very well to talk of reciprocity, but there was no reciprocity towards the merchants of India. Their cottons and woollens were taxed to four times the amount paid by the cottons and woollens in England when imported into India, and the result was, that thousands and tens of thousands of inhabitants of Hindostan had been thrown out of employ by the destruction of the trade. In one district half a million of people had been deprived of the means of subsistence. Parliament never considered what could be done for them, but what could be done for our own manufacturers. The East Indian Colonists had been much injured and aggrieved by the favouritism shown to the West Indian Colonists. While England had been enriched by the produce of India, the latter country had been impoverished by the narrow policy adopted towards it by England. He trusted, however, that the noble Lord would at least give the East Indians some assurance, that at some definite and not far distant time, what he might call the scandalous partiality shown to the West Indies would he put an end to.
Mr. Ewartthought the policy adopted by Government towards the East Indies most unwise and unjust. That country had for many years groaned under the cruel oppression of the East-India Company; and if the present proposition were adopted, it would not have much less reason to complain of the system of legislation adopted towards it by the English Government. It was time, however, to redress the wrongs of that much-injured country, for it cried aloud for redress, and it would make its cries heard. It had been truly said by the hon. Member, that the manufactures of India had been superseded by the manufactures of Manchester. The East Indians had a particular right to complain of the gross favouritism which was apparent in the different amount of duties charged upon their exports and the West-Indian exports. While West Indian sugar was only charged with a duty of 24 s. per cwt., East-Indian sugar was charged 32 s. The duty on West-India coffee was but 6d. a pound, while 9d. was charged on East-India coffee. North American tobacco was charged only 2s. 9d. a pound duty, while the duty on East India tobacco was 3s. Pimento pepper was charged 1s. per pound, while Indian and all other peppers were charged 1s. 3d. He was sorry that the present proposition had
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been brought forward so suddenly as to prevent the possibility of having previously laid before the House the immense number of petitions which he was sure would have poured in against the proposition, had it been anticipated. He trusted, however, that the House would show itself as just to the East-Indian colonists as to the other colonists. A discriminating policy with reference to our colonies would not only be injurious to the colonists themselves, but to England.
Mr. Warburtonregretted the course taken by Ministers on this occasion, not only on account of the injustice done to the East Indians, but of the injury it would occasion to England itself. According to the report made by that distinguished chemist, Dr. Ure, there was no longer any doubt that the West Indians received a bonus of 5s. per cwt. on all sugar refined for exportation, which, taking the total of the sugar so refined, would be found to amount to several hundreds of thousands of pounds. This was one of the subjects which, whenever the House appointed a Committee to inquire into the general system of taxation, could not fail to come under consideration. He thought, however, the present an appropriate time for discussing the whole subject of the sugar duties, for the West Indians, who had hitherto been accustomed to urge their distresses as a reason why the advantage enjoyed by them should not be altered, had now not only received a bonus of so enormous a sum as 20,000,000 l. but had obtained permission to refine their sugar, as well British as foreign, in bond. He would ask the right hon. Vice President of the Board of Trade whether any step, and what, was in contemplation by Government in consequence of the Report made by Dr. Ure.
Mr. Huttthought it a mistaken principle to attempt to govern a people by laws measured by the latitude and longitude in which they might live. The Colonists, whether East or West Indian, were subjects of the King just as the inhabitants of this country, and they were justly entitled to the same consideration with ourselves. If, however, Government persisted in neglecting so great a nation as the East Indian, they must not wonder at any ill effects which might result.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that with reference to the experiments of Dr. Ure, he had stated, when the subject was under discussion last year, that the results should be laid before the House, which had since been

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done; and though the hon. member for Bridport had overstated the bonus paid on every cwt. so reputed, yet he (Mr. Poulett Thomson) thought that a bonus of 4s. might be named as the correct sum. The loss to the revenue (though owing to the decreased export, it did not amount to so much last year) he estimated at 700,000 l. owing to the increased price. He had investigated the subject, and had endeavoured to devise a plan whereby to remedy these losses; nor did he despair of doing so. At present, however, he concurred with his noble friend in thinking, that it would not be advisable to make any alteration in these duties, till the result of the West-India Act of last Session was seen. The equalization of the duties was only a question of time; and when the difficulties which he mentioned were removed, the subject would be open to consideration.
Mr. Ruddell Toddsaid, that equal justice ought to be done to the East Indians and to other Colonists. If, however, the noble Lord would say he intended, within a certain definite time, to do this justice to the East Indians, this would be some satisfaction to them who were at any rate entitled to hear some reasons for the present proceedings, and some defined hopes of speedy justice.
Lord Althorpwas well aware of what was due to the East Indians, and was inclined to give them that due, and all that they required was time to see the working of the Act passed last Session with reference to the West-Indian Colonists. He thought it would not be advisable to increase the pressure on the latter Colonies till the effects of that measure were seen. He repeated that the present proposition was merely for a temporary purpose, and he hoped the House would agree to it.
Sir Robert Peelhoped, that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ewart) would persevere in his intention of submitting the present highly important subject to the grave consideration of the House, in order that they might clearly understand the situation of the parties interested in its adjustment. As far as he could comprehend its bearings, an act of greater injustice towards the natives of India could not be done than to continue upon their produce the unequal rate of duty at present levied. Although an attempt to establish discriminating duties between two countries might not by the one aggrieved be considered as an open declaration of war, yet it would not fail to
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make that country regard the attempt as a marked indication of hostility. The House might at all events depend upon it there was a growing intelligence in the natives of India that could not fail to make them feel most keenly the degree of favour shown to the West-India colonists in comparison with that extended to them. It ought, however, clearly to be understood whether the present rate of duty on East-India produce was to be considered permanent or not. He was disposed to agree with the noble Lord in thinking it might be inexpedient at the present moment to add to the difficulties of the West-India planter by proposing any change, but he at the same time thought that those whose capital was invested in East-India securities had a right to know whether the present unequal rate of duty on the produce of that country was to kept up.
Lord Althorphad already stated that it was solely in consequence of the position of West-Indian affairs at the present moment he was withheld from proposing an alteration in reference to the proportions in which the sugar duties were levied; and he did not hesitate to say, that as soon as the success of the measure of last Session was established, it would be most unjust to allow the present unequal rate of duty on East-India, as compared with West-India, produce to continue.
Colonel Daviessaid, that the West Indians would be very little benefited by anything that had been done, if the restrictions at present placed on their exports and imports were not taken off. The bonus of five per cent on refined sugar was not given to the planters, who derived no advantage from it, but to the refiner. As to the injury done to the Indians, it was well known that the government of the Company was equal and mild compared with that of the native chiefs.
Mr. Patrick Stewartbegged to remind the House that the East-India sugar-grower was enabled, owing to the low rate of labour in India, to send his produce into the market on far more advantageous terms than the West-India planter. He contended that there ought to be no further reduction of duties upon East-India sugars. He was ready to acknowledge that the West-India Colonies had met with very fair and just treatment from that House in the last Session, and he wished to see ultimately a fair competition between the Colonies; for he was willing to confess, that it was only in point of time and circum-

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stance that the West Indians could claim the renewal of what they had asked for. The mother country ought to know no distinctions between her colonies, except those which had arisen from circumstances for which she was herself responsible.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonhoped that Ministers would act impartially, and hold out fair hopes to the people of India. The recent regulations with respect to the settling of Europeans in India would have no beneficial effect unless they were accompanied by a more liberal policy with respect to the trade with those regions. The people of India would soon grow impatient of speaking to that House through the medium of humble petitions, and would feel that they were entitled to be heard in defence of their rights.
Mr. Wolryche Whitmorewould trespass on the House but briefly, as another occasion would be presented in the course of the Session in which the present subject could be more deliberately treated. He hoped that the time was not distant when Ministers would themselves bring forward the subject. Unless the produce of India were admitted into the home market, no advantages could be derived from the measures of last year. India opened an infinite field for the sale of the manufactures of this country, and he trusted that the policy of free trade would make these advantages available. The duties upon foreign sugars were now completely prohibitory, and the sugars of the West Indies and the East Indies alone came into our markets. Alterations of the duties must be made, for the West Indies would shortly be unable to afford a sufficient supply. The country would not have been satisfied to vote 20,000,000 l. last Session in aid of the West Indians had it not been under the impression that the duties would be equalized. In point of fact the West Indians now derived an advantage from England of 1,500,000 l. a year, 800,000 l. being the interest of the 20,000,000 l., and 700,000 l. being received for bounties upon exportation.
Mr. Secretary Stanleywas happy to perceive that there was a uniformity of opinion amongst all the hon. Members who had addressed the House upon the subject before them. All seemed to agree as to the necessity of adjusting and assimilating the duties at no distant period. There were two points which urged themselves upon the consideration of the House. The first was, the impolicy, if not the inexpediency, of affording protection to any one
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colony in particular, to the disadvantage or injury of the others. And it would, in the next place, be highly improper and inexpedient, in the present state of things, consequent upon the alterations made in the condition of the slave population of the West Indies by the Act of the last Session, to make any further experiments until the working of that measure had been fairly tried. In compassing that measure Government had many difficulties to contend with. They had to bring public opinion over to a measure involving a certain loss, and they had to contend with strong prejudices, to provide against numerous, and in some instances, perhaps, unforeseen dangers, and to wrestle with difficulties that at first sight appeared all but insurmountable. But by the liberality of Parliament adopting a course as wise as it was prudent, the dangers and difficulties were overcome. The result had proved that the measure was wise and prudent, even though accompanied with an expense of twenty millions. The success of the experiment had fully justified it, and time had given assurance that there was no danger of those fearful insurrections—those tremendous convulsions, and dreadful disturbances which some had foreboded, and which even the most sanguine could scarcely assure themselves would not occur. The prospect of success from the measure was daily augmenting, the hopes growing more healthy, the fears diminishing, and it would, therefore at present, be highly impolitic to mar a measure which had so happily begun. Any alteration now would be exceedingly premature—it would be but the letting loose of fresh elements of discord where strife had but just subsided. His noble friend had fairly stated, that time was the ground of his objection. He would make the same remark. In his official capacity he disclaimed the intention of favouring any one particular colony to the exclusion of others; but in taking the subject of the equalization of the duties under their consideration, the House was bound to remember, that the West Indies were subject to restrictions from which the East were free. Before proceeding with the equalization, the West Indies had a claim on the Government to relax the restrictions which pressed upon them, and assuredly, previously to an attempt to equalise the duties, it would be imprudent and unadvised in the highest degree to endanger the success of the late attempt by a disturbing force. The House was further

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bound to give to the West Indian interests full, fair, and timely notice of the intention to equalize the duties, that preparations might be made accordingly. Certainly an intimation would be given by the discussion of that evening. The feeling which every gentleman had expressed upon the subject of freedom of trade, and, more significant than ail, the strong hint conveyed by the decided opinion expressed by the right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth, against any protection being afforded—would give sufficient notice to those parties in the West Indies who were concerned in this matter, that they must not expect a continuance of these duties in their favour. All he asked of the House was, not to be premature—not, at a moment of great difficulty and delicacy, to interpose additional obstacles to the settlement of the most important question ever discussed, but fairly to avow the principles upon which they desired to act. Let them not, like his hon. friend, the member for Lancaster, profess such notions as waiting till the price of labour bad equalized itself in the West and East Indies; but, giving the West-India trader the protection which he had a right to claim—giving to a new state of society the means of settling itself—giving to this country the means of judging of the effect of the recent measures, and the probability of future cultivation—giving time for the settlement of these countervailing forces, admit the principle upon which Government ought to proceed, so as to lean towards placing on an equal footing the rival productions of the two countries. He hoped the House would not only not show a continued desire to make alterations which it was inexpedient to make, but would not ask him to pledge himself (which it was impossible he should do) to a fixed or definite period when alterations should take place. Admit, he said, the broad principle—watch the course of events—see how soon in this, as in every thing else, you can bring your theories into practice, but do not bring them into practice unless you are satisfied there are no obstacles which would interpose between them and their proper working, He trusted that the House would pursue this prudent course—he trusted that, giving free scope to the feeling pervading the country, and reflected upon the House, they would not act with precipitation, but, nevertheless, pursue steadily and cautiously, a course which justice and expediency alike demanded from
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a nation so extensive, and with such extensive commercial transactions as those of this great empire.
Mr. Baringsaid, as the sugar from the East and West Indies came into competition in the foreign market, it mattered little in that respect what duty was paid. He agreed with the suggestion not to interfere with the subject during the present year; what struck him as most difficult in equalising the duty between East and West India sugar was, that we were dealing with two articles of a different quality—one was in a state more advanced to refined sugar than the other. He entirely concurred in the principle that these two interests should ultimately be placed on exactly the same footing, and he trusted that ultimately the matter would be so arranged. Whilst he was on his legs, he wished to advert to a subject to which his attention had been directed by accounts in the public papers. It was true that we had proceeded triumphantly in putting a stop to the existence of slavery in our own colonies, but, if the accounts in the newspapers were true, and he had no reason to doubt their accuracy, the foreign slave-trade was at present going on to an extent which it was fearful for any friend of humanity to contemplate. He had seen in the course of last week descriptions in the public papers, as to the accuracy of which, perhaps, the right hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty would be able officially to inform the House. It was stated that one vessel had been captured by our cruisers with 400 or 500 human beings on board, and another vessel of only seventy-five tons burthen, with 200 slave children on board. If this were the case (and the statement in the public papers was confirmed by private information), those two countries, Spain and Portugal, whom we had paid, and paid largely, to bring into a course of common feeling and common humanity, had shown a disposition to avoid the performance of their engagements, and were carrying on this traffic to an extent, and with a degree of horrible inhumanity, of which he was sure the people of this country were not aware. Having made a sacrifice of 20,000,000 l. to put an end to this trade, and having paid other countries to follow our example, the Government were bound to state what information they had upon this subject, and what steps they might have taken to make other powers observe their engagements.
Sir James Grahamhad the greatest

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pleasure in assuring the Committee, and his hon. friend in particular, that this subject of the suppression of the foreign slave trade had not been overlooked by his Majesty's Government, for they had felt, in common with him, that there was well-founded reason to apprehend that, amidst the great advantages to result from the measure taken by the House, in the course of last Session, it might also have an effect upon the foreign slave trade. They certainly had information that with respect to Cuba, particular attempts had been made to increase the traffic in slaves. The Admiral commanding in the West Indies had positive orders to surround, with the whole of his force, the island of Cuba, and to intercept in its return any vessel which had been sent for a cargo of slaves. More than that, his Majesty's Government had sent to the West Indies a steam-vessel of great power, as likely to be most effectual for the suppression of the trade. They had not only sent a steam-vessel, but they had also stationed steam-vessels on the coast of Africa. He was happy to inform the hon. Member that, in concert with the Brazilian government, effectual measures had been taken for the suppression of the slave trade throughout the whole of that country—effectual, inasmuch as one of the captures to which the hon. Member referred, had taken place by vessels so stationed. The hon. Gentleman would not forget the arrangement recently made between this Government and France, whereby a reciprocal right of search had been conceded, and already the effect of it had been the almost entire extinction of the slave-trade, as carried on by France along the coasts of Africa. He was persuaded that the effect would not be limited to the coasts of Africa, but that an effectual and reciprocal right of search would be established throughout the whole of the West-India Islands. The interests of the West Indians were involved in this question of slavery. He might add that, what had already been done by Government was but an assurance that they would still further increase their exertions.
Dr. Lushingtonsaid, that the entire suppression of the slave-trade could never be effected by any effort, however strenuous, exercised on the part of the British Government, only because, in his judgment, the treaties entered into with foreign powers were still so defective and illusory that it was utterly impossible to effect a complete destruction of the trade, by simply
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adhering to the powers at present conferred by foreign governments. The great and serious defect, with respect to the slave-trade carried on by France was, that the treaty confined the right of search to certain parts of the coast of Africa, whereas, in truth and in fact, a considerable portion of the trade was carried on at a part of the coast to which the treaty did not apply at all. The treaty must be revised, and France called upon to co-operate with us in every part of the coast where the traffic was still carried on. He regretted that at the treaties with Spain and Portugal, in 1808, in which we had made such great sacrifices to rescue the Peninsula from French domination, means had not been taken to secure those conditions which we were entitled to demand relative to this trade. No language could exaggerate the atrocities of this traffic—no words could describe the degree of human suffering of which it was productive, or the state of degradation to which mankind was reduced when influenced by motives of lucre to commit such barbarities. Having made these observations, he should now say a few words upon the question under consideration. He had been called the enemy of the West-India interests. He now stood forward as their advocate. He apprehended that the question before the House admitted of little doubt. Unless extraordinary circumstances interfered, there could be no question that India had a right to have its products admitted into this country, at the same rate of duty as those of the West Indies. As a general proposition, it was impossible to doubt this; but he said that at this particular crisis—at the precise time and hour when not merely the commercial prosperity of the West Indies, but the very existence of those colonies, and the lives and happiness of their inhabitants depended upon the success of one of the greatest experiments that had ever been made in the transition from slavery to liberty—with all the difficulties intervening which had been portrayed with so much eloquence last year by those who doubted the expediency of the manumission of the slaves, at such a juncture to diminish in the slightest degree the motives of the West-India planters to carry that object into effect, or to reduce their hopes of its beneficial results, would be not merely an act injurious to them, but would be to make a trial, with respect to the future condition of the manumitted slaves, the most dangerous that any nation had ever adopted. How did the case stand

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at present? On our hopes of the industry of the liberated slaves, and of the prudent management of the planters in exciting that industry depended, not only the welfare of those colonies and their numerous inhabitants, but also the conduct of all other nations towards their slaves. To the chance, or rather, he hoped, the certain prospect of their witnessing the success of our extraordinary effort, and seeing the advantage of abolishing slavery and employing free labour, he looked for their being induced to follow the example which the British nation had so nobly set them, by redeeming from slavery not less than 2,000,000 of individuals. Therefore, until this crisis was passed, and until the time was arrived, which he hoped was not far distant, when the prosperity of the West Indies should be placed upon a secure basis, he, for one, would take from them not the slightest advantage, not one atom of the benefits which, right or wrong, they now enjoyed, in order to enable them to weather the storm, and finally to accomplish their own safety and regeneration.
Mr. Ewart Gladstoneimplored the House not to take any hasty step, which might add to the dangers by which the colonies were already surrounded. Within the last few days he had received letters from one of those islands which had hitherto been most peaceful, stating that the negroes had risen and attacked, and beaten the whites and committed numerous acts of violence.
Mr. Lyallsaid, that at this time, when we were entering upon a new system with regard to India, it was important that Parliament should turn its attention to the conditions upon which the manufactures of that great empire were to be received into this country, and our manufactures admitted in India. It was important that we should declare, and the declaration could not be made too soon—that our relations of commerce, and all our intercourse should be founded upon those principles of justice, without which it would be impossible to conduct the affairs of our eastern possessions satisfactorily or safely. Let it not he forgotten, that notwithstanding the advantages which we derived from our commerce with India, we received from that country a tribute of 3,000,000 l. or 4,000,000 l. annually, for which it derived in return nothing whatever, He trusted that when the question, of which the hon. member for Liverpool had given notice, should be brought forward, all these points would be
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taken under the consideration of the House, and that they would be dealt with in a spirit of justice and sound policy.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, the hon. and learned member for the Tower Hamlets had made allusion to the United States of America. He (Mr. Cobbett) admitted it was good to set an example of humanity, but not to show such a degree of anxiety as almost to force other people to follow it. He did not like the allusion to the United States in the hon. and learned Member's speech. There were 2,000,000 of slaves in the United States who could not he emancipated—the thing was impossible. He was sorry that anything should be said in the House which would tend to make the people of the United States believe that what had been done was for the purpose of throwing them into confusion, and creating discontent amongst their slaves, and he regretted that anything should be said which could have that tendency. However, as we had set the United States the example of abolishing slavery, they seemed determined in return to abolish paper-money, and that would be an ample compensation.
The Resolution was agreed to, and the House resumed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Feargus O'Connorrose to bring forward the Motion, of which he had given notice, relative to the non-attendance of his Majesty's Ministers, during the early sittings of the House. He complained of the inconvenience and loss of time that resulted from their absence, and the consequent difficulty that was thrown in the way of the public business, of which no part was more important than the petitions of the people. The hon. Gentleman reminded the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) that he had given a pledge, when the present arrangement was first proposed, that one or other of the Ministers should be present during the early sitting, and appealed to him whether he meant to redeem that pledge, or whether it was to be thrown into the general receptacle of unredeemed pledges? He knew the noble Lord would smile the House out of countenance, and that he would have no opportunity, or, if he had an opportunity, would not be able to efface the impression of that smile; but he called upon hon. Members for ever to hold their tongues as to the absence of Ministers, unless they supported him now. He should never bring the question for-

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ward again, but should count the House every day when it was necessary. On a late occasion, when there were but twenty-four Members present, he moved that the House should he counted, and that moment in rushed eighty-one Members from the Committee-rooms. He would continue to do so, and would fill the House every day from the Committee rooms. The hon. Member moved the following resolution:—"That, by not attending at the morning sittings of the House of Commons, his Majesty's Ministers have not conformed to the pledge given by them in the last Session of Parliament; and also that this Mouse deems it essential, as much from a sense of justice to the people as of respect to their Representatives, that some member of his Majesty's Government should attend during the presentation of the petitions of his Majesty's loyal subjects"
Lord Althorpsaid, he had undoubtedly made the promise stated by the hon. Member, and he might appeal to the House whether he had not, at the commencement of last Session, endeavoured to fulfil it. He had attended at the morning sittings for some time; but he fairly admitted, that he found it impossible to continue it. The bodily exertion was too much. This was not the first time the matter had been discussed. He had, when it was before alluded to, explained the circumstances of the ease; and he certainly understood it to be the general impression of the Gentlemen who spoke on that occasion, that they did not expect him to continue an exertion which he had found prejudicial to his health, and to his ability to attend to the public business. He admitted, that, when any question was to be brought forward relating to a department with which any particular member of the Government was connected, the presence of that individual member of the Government would be of great use, and would save considerable time; but the chances were, that, if notice were not given of the question to be brought forward, a satisfactory answer could not be given. He could state, on his own part, and he was sure he might say, also, on the part of his colleagues, that, whenever any Gentleman had a petition to present, to which he wished to call the attention of any member of the Administration, it should always meet with due attention. He did not believe that any hon. Member had hitherto made any such application, and failed of receiving that attention to which he was entitled. Undoubtedly, if it were
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the wish of the House to compel the attendance of his Majesty's Ministers during the early sittings, it would be their duty to comply; but he confessed, he did not think it would be for the advantage of the public service, as it would make them less able to do their duty at other times. He should leave it to the House to decide whether it would adopt the Resolution or not.
Mr. O' Connellcould not attribute any blame, personally, to the noble Lord; but thought it very desirable that Ministers should be present during the reception of petitions. He had presented many petitions, which he would have wished the noble Lord to have heard, and would have given him notice accordingly, but for the uncertainty as to the time when he might be able to bring them on. Really something ought to be done. The House ought to deliberate, and form some plan for altering the hours of sitting. That House was the only House that did business by night. They should sit in the day; the day should be devoted to business, and the night to repose. The protracted sittings of that House were ruinous to the health of Members, and of no real advantage to the public. When he first came into that House, and he was but a young Member, it sat only four days a-week; now it sat five days, and had sometimes sat six. By a plan which he could propose, their sittings might be confined to three days in the week. The House originally met at seven in the morning, subsequently at nine, then at one in the afternoon; and thus these bad habits had gradually crept upon them. The House ought not to sit after nine o'clock in the evening. No business could be well done after that hour. Speech-making might go on very well, but no real business could be done. After the explanation which had been given, he recommended his hon. friend to withdraw his Motion, and he hoped that either he or some other Member would bring forward a distinct proposition to alter the hours of that House. Thirty or forty Members combining together could certainly compel early adjournments of the House, but that would be a very disagreeable alternative to resort to.
Mr. Humeput it to the consideration of the House, whether any animal strength could carry them through the present hours of sitting. They began in the morning, and went on until two of the morning following. He thought, that they should

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always adjourn at ten o'clock, or, at a events, that no new matter should be entered upon after eleven o'clock at night. If such a rule as this were to be adopted, hon. Members would soon learn to accommodate themselves to it, and the business of the country would be more properly conducted. He hoped the House would consider the propriety of always adjourning at ten o'clock.
Mr. FeargusO'Connor withdrew his Motion.

THE NATIONAL DKBT—CURRENCY.
Mr. Ruthven, pursuant to notice, rose to move the following Resolution, "That it is expedient to take into consideration the state of the Currency, and the National Debt; so that such modifications may be made of the public burthens of the Country, as may enable the people to sustain the Charges and Establishments necessary for the Public Service." He thought no subject of greater importance could be brought before the House. The Army Estimates were much greater now than they were in the olden and better times, before the change had taken place in the currency, which had, while it left the nominal burthens the same, nearly doubled their actual weight. The National Debt, too, had attained its present enormous amount under a depreciated currency, and it was paid in full weight. Whenever anything was said respecting the National Debt or the Currency, there was always an attempt to get up an alarm, and to raise an outcry about the national faith. The object of his Motion was to afford an opportunity of answering some of the very unfounded charges and insinuations which had been thrown out against certain persons on this subject. He alluded particularly to some expressions and sentiments which had fallen from the right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth. When a proposition with reference to the National Debt was made by his hon. colleague a few nights since, the right hon. Baronet threw himself into a great passion, and expressed himself in terms not of the most temperate description. How great then was his surprise, with the right hon. Baronet's denunciation ringing in his ears, to find the right hon. Baronet thus expressing himself in the debate of last night. He said, 'In his opinion, the agricultural interest would have a much better chance of obtaining relief by maintaining public credit, than by pressing for such a reduction of the revenue as would endanger it.
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So far as personal motives could weigh with any man, it must be with him a primary object to protect the agricultural interest; but looking at the present price of the funds, considering the chance there was that an early and legitimate reduction of the public burthens would take place by diminishing the interest on those funds, his fixed and deliberate opinion was, that public credit should not be endangered or lessened by any rash and precipitate attempt to obtain the repeal of the tax in question. He had been astonished to hear no reference made by the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to the state of the four per cents in his financial statement.'* Where was the consistency here? Neither was the reduction of the interest of the National Debt forgotten by the hon. member for Essex, who, speaking of the contingencies of the Stocks, said, "With a moderate support of public credit there would at the present moment be no such thing in existence as a three and a-half per cent stock. It would have been reduced to two and a-half, and then they would have been enabled to reduce the taxes on wine, spirits, tea, and all other articles of consumption." Well then, the proposition for reducing some part of the burthens of this heavy debt was not so peculiar as might have been imagined. The greater part of this enormous Debt of 800,000,000 l., too, was contracted in one currency, whilst the interest was paid in another, which was most unjust. Justice to the public and the nation at large, called on them to consider whether they could not come to some equitable arrangement, so as to secure to one party the permanent payment of a proper and fair interest; and to the other, relief from the unjust burthen imposed upon them by the obligation of paying the interest of the Debt in a currency different to that in which it was contracted. At no great distance of time, some financial operation of this kind must inevitably take place, and the sooner they fairly met the difficulty the better. The hon. Member concluded by moving the Resolution.
Lord Althorpexpressed his conviction, that the House did not expect him to enter largely into the subject touched upon by the hon. Gentleman. Never, indeed, had so large a question been introduced by so small a speech. He regretted that the hon. Gentleman had not more fully ex-
*Hansard (third series) xxi. p. 897.

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plained the object he had in view. As it was, it would be troubling the House in vain were he to enter into any lengthened disquisition on the subject.
Mr. O'Connellhoped his hon. colleague would not press his Motion.
Mr. Humeobserved, that the hon. Mover did not seem to have been well understood. The argument of his hon. friend was, that as there had been a great change in the standard, that change ought to be made applicable to the army expenditure. He hoped, however, that his hon. friend would not press the Motion on the present occasion.
Resolution negatived without a division.

MILITARY EXPENDITURE—CASE OF MR. BURGESS.
On the Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, Colonel Davies rose, in pursuance of notice which he had given to move, as an Amendment to the Motion for a Committee of Supply, that a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the Military Establishment and Expenditure of the country; but, as he understood from his right hon. friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, that the Government would have no objection to the appointment of such a Committee, he should not trouble the House with any remarks. He intended to move, that the whole of the Establishments of the country should be referred to a Committee; but as he found such a liberal disposition on the part of the Government, he would be content with a Committee, for the limited purpose he had stated, as he had no wish to create embarrassment. The chief part of our Military Expenditure was occasioned by our colonies, in which it was necessary to keep large bodies of troops, and that required a large military force at home to relieve the troops in the colonies.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, that as the military expenditure of the colonies was now under the consideration of the House, he would call its attention to the case of Mr. Burgess, who had presented a petition to it last Session. On that occasion the noble Lord opposite—acting, no doubt, upon information which he believed to be true—had made certain allegations to the House, accusing Mr. Burgess of insanity. Now, he had received from Mr. Burgess proofs of his sanity, sobriety and respectability. Mr. Burgess was not a native of Canada, but of Dorsetshire. He offered to dis-
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prove all the charges which had been preferred against him. He wished that the papers which Mr. Burgess had placed in his hands, should be referred to the Committee which the hon. member for Worcester had just moved for, and that they should be there submitted to examination. Mr. Burgess said, he was sure that he could state facts which would bring back into the Treasury 300,000 l. or 400,000 l. which had been squandered improperly in Canada.
Mr. Secretary Stanleycould only speak of the subject which had been adverted to by the hon. member for Oldham, from recollection, for the official papers relating to it from the Ordnance department were only laid upon the table at the end of last Session. His recollection of the matter was, that Mr. Burgess had been employed on the Rideau canal. Some disputes respecting accounts had arisen between Mr. Burgess and the Ordnance Department. Mr. Burgess claiming a very considerable sum as his due, and the Ordnance Department conceiving that he was, on the contrary, in their debt, an investigation before a board of military officers was set on foot spontaneously by the Ordnance Department, who promised to bear all the expense of the inquiry; but, during its progress, Burgess and some of his witnesses disappeared, and the accounts, consequently, remained unsettled up to this period. Mr. Burgess, it had been since ascertained, was at present in the United States. In the course of the inquiry, a medical certificate was brought forward, which he was ready to produce, if required, that Mr. Burgess had laboured under the influence of insanity from drinking ardent spirits. Of this fact he (Mr. Stanley) believed he could bring positive proof. Into the question of the military expenditure of the colonies generally, he would not at present enter, because he did not believe the discussion would lead to any satisfactory result; but he could assure the gallant Colonel (Davies), that he (Mr. Stanley), in common with the rest of his Majesty's Government, would give the gallant Officer every assistance in his power to elucidate the whole of the accounts and the whole military expenditure of the colonies, and he thought he should be able to show the Committee that the expenses were not only not extravagant, but that, as far as the military service was

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concerned, a considerable reduction had taken place, He hoped the gallant Colonel would, therefore, for the present, withdraw his Motion, and allow the House to go into Committee upon the Army Estimates, for the purpose of facilitating business, on the understanding that no opposition would be made to his Motion after the other business was disposed of.
The Motion withdrawn.
On the Speaker putting the question, that he now leave the Chair,
Mr. Cobbettsaid, Sir, I hope yon will not leave it to-night. [Loud laughter]. I think it monstrous to vote away 6,000,000 l. of the public money at this hour of the night, nine o'clock.
The Speakerobserved, that he was surprised the hon. Member should complain of the lateness of the hour, when he had mainly contributed to render it so.
Mr. Cobbettagain rose, and was about to address the House, when
The Speakersaid, the hon. Member had already spoken on the subject.
The House went into a Committee of—

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. Ellicesaid, that he would follow the advice of the hon. member for Middlesex, and proceed at once to the business before the House by the shortest possible process; nor should he waste the time of the House, he thought, in introducing it by the very few observations which he conceived necessary for the explanation of the Army Estimates of the present year. The shortest process, he fancied, would be at once to institute a comparison between the present and the Estimates of last year. He would, in the outset, take some credit to the Government, while he congratulated the House on the altered circumstances of the country, which had enabled him to propose a very considerable reduction in the amount of the military force. The present, he believed, would be the least Estimates which had been proposed to the House since the Union with Ireland. It was intended to reduce the military force of the country by about 8,000 men, so that the whole amount of the army would be gradually reduced to 70,355 men. This reduction was to be effected by the mode recommended in the Committee of last year—viz. by not filling up the vacancies as they occurred in the army. This reduction, however, included but three officers,
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and he was sure the hon. member for Middlesex would be satisfied it would be the best economy so to reduce the army as to leave the country prepared for any sudden emergency at the least possible expense. It was on this principle that he had acted in endeavouring gradually to reduce the number of men without interfering with the establishments of the different regiments. Of the three officers he had alluded to, one was the colonel of the Ceylon Regiment, whose reduction had been recommended by the Committee of last year, and the other two were second majors of cavalry. The reductions were, in the cavalry, 580 men; in the infantry, 6,640; and, in the Foot Guards, 540; by which a saving would accrue to the country of 123,142 l. per annum. This saving arose principally from the reduction in the number of men in the colonial regiments, and by not filling up casualties as they occurred, and by reducing the sum formerly allowed for the table of the Guard at St. James's. Another item in the Estimates he would allude to, on which there was a considerable saving, was the Staff of the Army, the expense of which was lessened about 2,000 l.; though he was aware that the charges for this department appeared increased on the Estimates in consequence of the transference of some garrison appointments to the Staff Estimates. The next item in which reductions had been effected, was that of the Public Departments, which was to the amount of 4,314 l. A considerable saving had also been effected in the expenses attendant on the Royal Military Asylum, the funds of which were appropriated to the education of the children of soldiers in this country and in Ireland. A much better system had been adopted in this establishment with regard to the filling up of vacancies, and the result was, that a considerable saving had been effected in the money voted by Parliament last year. The next item to which he would allude, was the volunteer corps. The hon. and learned member for Dublin had asked a question with regard to this subject, and he believed he could now give a satisfactory answer to it. In consequence of what, passed last year, he had pressed on the Irish Government the expediency of doing away with an expense which did not appear of utility to the country. The Irish yeomanry had not, it seemed, been called out for the last two or three years,

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and it appeared to him, therefore, impossible to admit that account into the Estimates. A reduction of expense had already been effected by not calling out the English yeomanry except on permanent duty. In consequence of this practice, a saving of 3s. 6d. a day per man had been effected. The saving altogether, in both the English and Irish yeomanry corps, would be about 20,000 l. These were the principal heads in the Estimates on which he thought it necessary to call the attention of the House. In the expense for non-effective men there was also a considerable reduction, but he would not fatigue the House by entering into details, it would suffice to observe, that it amounted to 104,000 l. The total decrease of expense, therefore, would be about 299,000 l., including the sum of 30,000 l. in Exchequer fees, for which the Government did not take credit. What he had done in the way of reduction, he had intirely clone in obedience to the recommendation of the Committee of Inquiry into the expenses of all the higher departments of the army. He could assure the House, that no charge had been made in the present Estimates—not one shilling expended—for which bonâ fide service was not to be performed. An alteration had been made in the present Estimates with respect to the colonial regiments and the emoluments of the different officers, agreeably to the recommendation of the Committee of last year. On the recommendation of that Committee the colonelship of the Ceylon Regiment had been abolished, and the garrison establishments placed on a different footing. An alteration, too, had been made in the garrison Estimates. A distinction was made between garrisons which had effective duty, and garrisons where there was none, and the former was added to the staff, so that they might come every year under the control of the House; and if, at any time, their duties were not deemed necessary, the House might resolve on their reduction. The Committee would find the particular charges for the garrison expenses added to the staff and contingency charges. One garrison had already been abolished, that of Annapolis, and its duties transferred to the chief garrison in Nova Scotia. Another alteration was with respect to the Guards. In former Estimates there had always been a vote for recruiting and hospital expenses, which provided for 464 non-effective men on the establishment.
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For this he had thought it better to substitute a vote enabling the Guards to manage their own recruiting and hospital expenses, which amounted to 8,780 l. He should not disguise from the House, that all these allowances found their way, sooner or later, to the stock-purse of the regiment. He admitted, that it was objectionable, and believing that every officer should be well paid, and that the House and the country so wished it, he thought it much better that such charges should not be placed under fictitious heads. Therefore, he was anxious to form for the Guards a regulation in lieu of that which had been so long established; and if he had not, at present, wholly succeeded, he could assure the Committee it was no fault of his. If the House would give him the same credit which was extended to him last year, and leave the matter as it at present stood in his hands, he would earnestly endeavour by next year to place the matter on a more intelligible and less offensive basis. And he could assure the Committee, that however anxious they were for alterations in this and other points, they could not go at a more rapid pace than he was disposed to do. He wished here to say a few words as to the allowances of the Guards. The regiments of Guards cost, in fact, no more than the effective force of the line—the men had certainly a penny a day more; but this, from living in the metropolis, and one thing or another, did not occasion the expenditure on them of one shilling more than what was called for by the necessities of an equal number of men from other corps. [Mr. Hume was understood to express some surprise.] If the hon. member for Middlesex doubted what he said, he assured him he was able and willing to convince him by a reference to documents. The next point recommended by the Committee of last year, which he had endeavoured to effect, was the making of certain reductions in the allowances to certain general officers. To this recommendation, however, the Committee had annexed conditions with which he had found it impossible to comply. The circumstances, he believed, would be found a sufficient justification for the continuation of the allowances. The ages of the officers in question averaged above sixty-five years, and their power of selling their regimental commissions would have been a very bad bargain for the Govern-

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ment. He, therefore, though reluctantly felt obliged not to make up the payments to those general officers to 400 l. a year each, but thought it better to leave the matter to the liberality of the House, rather than bring it forward formally in the Committee. He should be most happy to have it in his power to remedy the omission. Another recommendation of the Committee which he had not been able to accomplish was an effective reduction in the amount of the staff and head-quarters; but he hoped the Committee would abstain from discussing this subject until the vote came, in due course, before the House. He should then, he thought, be able to show how it was he had not been able to follow up the recommendation of the Committee on that point. He believed, he had now enumerated all the recommendations of the Committee of last year. Those which were practicable it had given him great pleasure to carry into effect, and, he trusted, in regard to those which he had not fulfilled, he should be able to give satisfactory reasons for his non-compliance. In bringing forward the Estimates of last year, he had made certain promises to the House, in reference to remedying some of the charges. He had fulfilled these as far as the Irish yeomanry and the Exchequer fees were concerned. The charge in the Estimates for Kilmainham Hospital was made with the view of facilitating the settling of the accounts of that establishment, but measures had been taken for transferring all the in-pensioners to the superintendence of the Board of Ordnance in Ireland, while the out-pensioners would be transferred to that of Chelsea Hospital, which, through the liberality of the country, was enabled to maintain 85,000 pensioners. It was well known, that soldiers in general preferred being out-pensioners to living in the hospital. They liked to enjoy their pensions with their families in the country. He was well aware that a strong disposition naturally prevailed amongst the members from Ireland against the doing away with any establishment in that country that might be useful, or to which the people of Ireland were attached. Now, he did not propose to do away with the establishment of Kilmainham Hospital, he only proposed to transfer it to an establishment already in existence at Island-bridge, close by it, so as to lessen
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considerably the amount of the expense required for maintaining it. It would there exist at a far diminished expense, and if it should be found necessary hereafter at any time to renew the more expensive establishment at Kilmainham Hospital, it would be in a situation fit, at once, to be brought back there. The way in which he proposed to effect this arrangement was, to transfer the establishment at Kilmainham Hospital to the Artillery and Engineer department at Island-bridge, where, as every one who knew the nature of that department would acknowledge, it would be maintained in the same orderly and efficient state; and if the service of the State, or a war should hereafter render it necessary to renew the establishment at Kilmainham Hospital, the establishment existing at Island-bridge would, at once, enable the Government of the country to do so. He calculated that, by this arrangement, no less a saving than 12,000 l. a-year would be effected, without any detriment whatever to the public service. An impression had gone abroad, that, in regard to the Royal Military School in the Phœnix-park, some injustice had been done to Ireland. He could assure hon. Gentlemen opposite, that the same rule had been applied to the school at Chelsea, as to the school at Dublin, and he would pledge himself that no advantage whatever should be given to the one over the other. He had included the reductions which he had just mentioned in the course of his statement last Session, and he conceived, therefore, that the Committee would allow that he had a right to claim credit for having carried them into effect. He had now to state to the Committee, that a Commission was issued previous to the present Session of Parliament, which had been long pressed on the Government of the country, and for the carrying of which important object into effect they were particularly indebted to the efforts of his noble friend, the Postmaster-General, and his noble friend, the Paymaster of the Forces. The Commission to which he was alluding, was a Commission issued for the purpose of reporting upon the expediency of consolidating the Civil Departments of the Army. That Commission had not been idle since its appointment; a great deal of evidence had been taken by it, and considerable progress had been made by it towards bringing its labours to a successful con-

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clusion. He conceived, that the consolidations which he had already stated to the Committee as having been made in the Estimates for the present year were, in themselves, all decided steps towards carrying into effect the principle of consolidation. He thought, that he might how state to the Committee those consolidations which, in pursuance of the recommendations of the Commission, he trusted to be able to accomplish. Before mentioning the first of these measures, he begged to say, that he was well aware, that he was anticipating a portion of the report of the Commissioners, but, he conceived, that on a subject of this kind it was, of course, more convenient to state to the House the grounds on which intended alterations were to be made. Some little time must be given to the Commission to carry the objects which it had in view into effect,—to put an end to various abuses, without pressing too much upon it in the present Session. All of them could easily suggest fine plans of consolidation; but all those upon whom the responsibility of carrying them into effect devolved, knew, that, what with the business of Parliament, and what with the ordinary routine of office, if such things were to be carried into effect, in a businesslike manner, and so as to do credit to those who effected them, great attention and great industry must be applied. He thought he might state, that the Commissioners had made up their minds to carry into effect the following arrangements in the course of the present year. In the first instance, it was proposed to abolish the Board of Control of Army Accounts; seeing that, since the late war, the duties of that Board, there being no Foreign Boards, no Commissariat abroad to Control, and for many other reasons, had been greatly diminished in amount, he saw no difficulty in transferring the remaining duties which appertained to it to the office which he at present filled. It was next proposed to take to the War-office the whole charge of the half-pay of the Ordnance, and the whole of the allowances to the widows and families of officers connected therewith, so that the department, in addition to the other duties of the War-office, might be managed in one office. There was, in his opinion, nothing to prevent the whole of that business being transacted in the War-office, with very little addition to the
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labour there at present, and without any additional expense. The arrangement was, therefore, one which, while it would be productive of no inconsiderable saving of the public money, would, in no degree, detract from the efficiency of the department. That, it appeared to him, was the true way to proceed in carrying into effect the principles of consolidation and economy. The next arrangement which he proposed was this,—namely, to transfer the whole of the Commissariat to the War-office. He did not mean to say, that this arrangement was, at present, absolutely determined upon. It was an arrangement, however, under consideration, and he had no doubt it would be effected. He proposed, then, to transfer the Commissariat from the Treasury to the War Office, leaving still to the Treasury the payment of all monies for the military chest of the colonies, and leaving to the Treasury besides that effective control which it should always possess over every department of the State where the payment of money was concerned. He reckoned with confidence on having this arrangement carried into effect in the course of the present year. He need not say, that the Commissariat department in a time of peace was not of that extensive nature to prevent the duties of it being entirely transacted in the War-office, and in that way, while public economy would be consulted, a complication of business in various offices, and a great waste of time consequent thereon, would be completely obviated. Let them take as an instance of the present complicated mode of passing accounts, the passing of the accounts of some offices in Jamaica. They are first sent to the War-office, whence they are transmitted to the Treasury, who, knowing nothing of them, refer them to the controller of accounts, whence they are actually sent back to the War-office. Lately, in the matter of an account of only 5l. or 6l., he had consumed a quire of foolscap in communications backwards and forwards on the subject. The proposed arrangement, therefore, would do away with all that unnecessary trouble, whilst it would be productive of greater simplicity and economy. In addition to the arrangements which he had just mentioned, he had to state that an arrangement was in contemplation (indeed, it was one that had been often much pressed on Government) to limit the present allowance of half-pay

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to officers who had already entered the service, and to exclude from it those who might hereafter enter the army. He only mentioned the subject as one which had been very much pressed upon the attention of Government. He thought that some arrangement of the kind might be made without infringing upon the equitable considerations due to the parties more immediately concerned, and he knew that if such an arrangement could be effected, it would tend to relieve the public in future from an enormous charge. He would not go into the various details connected with those subjects which he had stated to the Committee. They would be conveniently and properly discussed when the different estimates to which they related came before the Committee. He had contented himself on the present occasion with merely making a general statement of what had been done, and of what it was intended to do, in the department over which he had the honour to preside. He trusted that, after what he had stated, it would be acknowledged that he had fully redeemed the promises which he had made last year, and he hoped that, under such circumstances he might now take credit for the reductions which he had mentioned as in contemplation at present. Having performed what he had promised last year, it was not too much to ask of the House to give him credit for that which he promised to carry into effect in the course of the ensuing year. Some Gentlemen, in considering the Estimates, were in the habit, not of considering what should he a fitting expenditure for the army of this country in the present day, but for comparing that expenditure with the expenditure for the army in, according to their opinion, the golden period of 1792. The hon. member for Oldham, for instance, had asked him whether he intended to compare the present Estimates with those at the conclusion of the last peace? Now, probably, that hon. Member would find in the long-run that he (Mr. Ellice) did not differ so much as he might imagine with him on this subject. Now, in comparing the Estimates of the present year with those for 1792, it would be found that, though the effective force in 1792 was much more limited than at present, yet the charge for it was nearly as great. The actual charge for the existing effective force this year was 2,839,000 l. But if the same amount of forces were
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paid at the rate of 1792, the establishment at present would cost much more than they did. The estimate for 1792 was 1,473,000 l. for England, and 452,000 l. for Ireland, making nearly 2,000,000 l. for a much less numerous force. He agreed with the hon. Member that the increased charge in the Estimates had arisen from an obvious cause, but it was one beyond cure; it had arisen from the additional allowances made to the men in the course of the war, in order to keep pace with the depreciation then in progress in the currency. The fact was, that if such an increase had not then been made to the soldier's allowances, he would not have been, in consequence of the great and then every day augmenting depreciation of the currency, able, out of his pay, to provide his subsistence. The cause, therefore, of the increased charge was, as he had said, already apparent, but it was a cause beyond cure. He did not suppose that any gentleman would propose to remedy it, for it could only be remedied in one way. He had certainly received suggestions from different parts of the country, to reduce the charge by reducing the pay of the soldiers; but he was sure that no Gentleman in that House would do so. [Mr. Cobbett: I would.] He would only say, in reply to that assertion, that he would not be the person to do it. But with regard to the higher ranks in the army, their pay and allowances had not been proportionably increased, because there was not the same reason for increasing them. He might state what he had stated to the House last year, that the pay and emoluments of colonels in the army were at the same rate now that they were at the time of the battle of Minden. If the hon. Gentleman could find out any mode of diminishing the charge beyond that effected by the hand of time, he (Mr. Ellice) must confess his inability to discover it. While we had at present a more effective army, and one larger in amount than in 1792, it only cost us, exclusive of the increased allowances he had mentioned, what the army did in 1792; and it was therefore plain that we had since that period got rid of some unnecessary expenses in the army, and that the general management of it was better and more economical. If the present estimate were compared with the estimate for 1792, it would be seen that the number of men employed for the defence of the old colo-

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nies was not now quite so much as at that period, notwithstanding that those colonies had, of course, since that period, greatly increased in population. So far from there having been an increase in the amount of men, in our old colonies, there had been a decrease in every one of them, with the exception of New South Wales. Not only had the force been diminished in the old colonies, but the staff had also been diminished. If, then, they took into account the number of colonies which we had acquired by conquests during the war, containing a population as great, if not greater, than that of the old colonies, it would be seen that, according to the scale of the year 1792, we had a much smaller force now in the colonies than at that period. The number of men employed in the old colonies in 1792 was 16,888, and the force employed in the colonies since conquered, being about equal to the old colonies in population was 16,199. Out of the reduced vote which he meant to propose upwards of 30,000 would be wanted for the colonies. He was only anxious for inquiry to be made into all those points; indeed, into every matter connected with the military expenditure of the country. He was most ready to go with his gallant friend opposite into an inquiry into all the facts connected with the pay of the higher officers of the army, and into every other branch of the military expenditure of the country, with a view to introduce every possible economy consistent with the due maintenance of the public service. He had already stated to the House that the present estimate was lower than any since the meeting of the Imperial Parliament. Though there were 9,000 or 10,000 men more in it than the lowest limit in 1822–23, yet the present estimate was less by 338,000 l. than that of 1822, and less by 314,000 l. than that of 1823. That reduction, however, had principally taken place in consequence of the falling off of what was called "the dead weight" of the army. The present estimate was, he repeated, lower than any that had been presented since the union. It was lower than the estimate for the year 1830, with the same numerical amount of effective force. In saying-those things, he was sure that it was unnecessary for him to claim at the hands of the House that credit for the army for its present effective state of discipline which it so eminently deserved. He could declare that
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during the year that he had now held the office of Secretary at War, not one complaint had been made to him from any part of the country as to want of subordination, or the display of undisciplined conduct on the part of the army. He believed he would be borne out in what he stated by hon. Members from all parts of the three kingdoms, and he was satisfied that when the House considered the arduous and difficult service to which the troops in many instances were exposed—their being sent to different and unhealthy climates—the officers often consigned to an exile of twenty years under the burning sun of India—he was sure, he said, that when the House took all these circumstances into account, any hon. Gentleman, whatever might be his sense of economy, would not propose any reductions in allowances so hardly earned. Let them but look to the dreary prospect in times of peace before those officers who had nothing but their pay to live on, absolutely without a hope of promotion, and employed in a service infinitely more harassing than the service of other countries in time of war (for the English service was more severe in times of peace, on account of our colonies, than that of any other European country in time of war),—in a service, too, destitute of the glory that accompanied the hardships of war—a service, in a word, cheerless, harassing, and severe;—when they looked at those things, he was sure that there was no Gentleman in that House that would say that the officers or soldiers of the army were overpaid. That, then, being the case, he should like to know where those millions were to come from, that some persons were so fond of stating could be saved from the Army Estimates of the country. He was sure his hon. friend opposite, the member for Middlesex, would give him credit for sincerity in his endeavours to effect every possible reduction in the military expenditure of the country—he had proved it by redeeming the pledges he had made to the House; but this he would say, that never would he attempt to reduce a single shilling of that expenditure by committing an act of injustice to the officers or soldiers of the army. That was a species of economy that he should never practise. Suppose his hon. friend opposite should propose to reduce the number of men to the amount it was in 1822. His hon. friend must know that a forced reduc-

975
tion of that description, supposing it expedient on other grounds, would not be in itself an entire saving. Before he came down to the House, he had made out a comparative statement of the effects produced by the sudden reduction in 1822. There was certainly a considerable reduction made in that year in the effective force of the country, reducing it even 10,000 men below the number asked for in the estimate of this year. But what was the consequence? Why, that the "dead weight," which, in 1820, was 2,700,000 l., in 1822 was 2,800,000 l., and in 1823, was 2,900,000 l. while in the present year its amount was only 2,500,000 l. Even, supposing the sudden reduction then effected to have been expedient, it was objectionable on the score of economy. It appeared to him, that the wiser, the better, and the more economical way was to wait the fullness of time, which would continue in its inevitable progress making those reductions it had already made in the dead weight of the country. Suppose that a portion of the effective force should be now reduced, and that any circumstances at the end of the year should render it necessary to increase the military force of the country; hon. Gentlemen would find that it would be extremely difficult without calling out the militia, to provide the force required, while the expense of the operation would exceed any saving that the temporary reduction of a number of good and effective troops might have produced. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving "that a number of land forces not exceeding 88,952, of whom 7684 were to be reduced in the course of the year, be maintained for the service of the country for the year ending 31st of March, 1835."
Mr. Humehad heard with the greatest satisfaction the speech of the right hon. the Secretary at War; and he must in candour state, that, during his whole Parliamentary life, a more explicit, a more open, and more manly exposition, never fell from a public servant of the Crown. No estimate could be more fairly and candidly explained. The opening statements could not be quarrelled with. The details were given in a manner that must have shown they were given with a view to avoid anything like obscurity or misconception. He should give the right hon. Secretary full credit for his desire to reduce the national bur-
976
thens, and if he had the sole direction of his department, he would be perfectly satisfied. He was bound to state, that the promises of last year were honestly fulfilled. He could not quarrel with his right hon. friend. Many reductions were made which, but for him, he was quite sure, would not have been attempted. Having thus discharged his duty towards the right hon. Gentleman, he had another duty to perform to the House. He had never advocated the propriety of destroying any party, for the purpose of carrying a measure which was thought essential; he should be sorry to sacrifice an individual interest. Such would not be economy; he should deprecate it. With regard to the reduction made in 1822, to which his right hon. friend had alluded, no reduction had ever been made more hastily. It arose from a vote suddenly passed by that House. All reductions had been refused throughout that year, when, just at the close of the Session, he carried an Address to his Majesty for a reduction in the army, and in ten days afterwards the amount was diminished by 10,000 men. That was not the way to proceed. Two years after, the veteran battalions were reduced. The next year they were recalled into active service, and shortly afterwards again reduced, the officers retiring on full pay. Was this the boasted economy of the governments that had ruled England? By such measures the dead weight was increased, and the country made to endure the present weight of taxation. The House could not, however, recall the past; they could only adequately provide for the future. Let hon. Members, then, determine now what was best to be done. Every hon. Gentleman who had a seat in that House, unless, indeed, he represented a most limited constituency, was pledged to lessen the public charges. From statements before him, it appeared that the sum levied on the empire amounted to 50,000,000 l., of which 46,170,000 l. found its way into the Exchequer. The taxation of the country, therefore, amounted to 50,000,000 l. He fully concurred in the justice of the question of the hon. member for Dublin. Was the country prepared to keep up such an enormous amount of taxation, under the present circumstances of the times? The right hon. Secretary had said he could not save the nation 2,600,000 l., because the amount,

977
in 1822, was so great. He denied the position. We should legislate for the present, not in reference to the past. He would maintain that, our military expenditure might be reduced by diminishing the number of men, for it was only by reducing expenditure that he would propose to remit the taxes that pressed so heavily on the country. It was said, that those were the lowest estimates that had been presented since the Union. He was prepared to show that, under the present vote, they were higher than in 1822 or 1823; for, while the expenditure under that vote, in the present estimate, was 3,000,000 l., it was only 2,500,000 l. in 1822, and 2,300,000 l. in 1823. He was ready to admit, however, that the present estimates, as a whole, were lower than those of the years just mentioned, by 15,000 l. But that was a small sum. There was no getting the Ministers to reduce the expenditure, unless the House applied some gentle force to them. His right hon. friend had talked of those who wished for reductions to the amount of millions; he believed that, in so speaking, he alluded to him. Now, seven years ago, he was considered as a man fit for Bedlam, because he proposed to take off 7,000,000 l. of taxes, and yet that amount of taxes had been since reduced. He was glad to see his right hon. friend acting on principles which he had always advocated, and in which advocacy he had generally found a supporter in his right hon. friend. He was glad to see his right hon. friend now carrying those principles and views into effect, which he had advocated before he was Secretary at War. He did not doubt but that if the right hon. baronet, the late member for Westminster, was now present, he would bear honest testimony to the correctness of what he had stated. When he said, that the expense of the army had been carried to an undue extent, he did not speak without full consideration; nor were his sentiments at variance with the sentiments of many hon. Members. He also maintained, that, although the late Duke of York was a most excellent officer, and beloved by the army, over whose interests he had presided, and essentially promoted—promoted, it was true, at the public expense—yet he objected to such powers as had been concentrated in that illustrious personage, being vested in a prince of the blood royal, or in any officer
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whatever. In the Committee alluded to, it had been proved that the Secretary at War was not the officer possessing power, nor invested with that influence which would make his office a responsible situation. If the Secretary at War were placed in a responsible situation with reference to the Legislature, those reforms in the military department, which were immediately necessary, would be carried into effect. When, however, he saw the opposition manifested by the Government to such a reduction in the military establishment as the state of the country required, he felt it his duty, though hon. Members on the other side of the House might differ from him, and exercise, as they had a right to do, their own discretion, to lay before the Committee and the Government the course which appeared to him to be the best to be pursued consistent with the interests of the country. The estimated number of the effective force, subject to a gradual diminution, was 89,419 men, and all that was now proposed was to reduce that number by about 8,000 men. The Committee ought to bear in mind, that the effective strength of the army, under the administration of the Duke of Wellington, and at the time the present Government came into office, was 81,164 men. So that, after four years of a Reform Administration had passed, that Administration was only able to bring the army back to the strength in which they found it. What was at present the relative situation of the country, in comparison with what it had been at the time Earl Grey became Prime Minister, to justify this state of things? Much had been stated as to the acts of the present Government in pamphlets and reports; but, in the first year of their Administration, they had increased the estimates one million, and had taken two years to come back to the position in which they were on their accession to power. He had ever held, that the force increased had been so unnecessarily, and the proposition now was, to reduce, by stopping the recruiting for the military service, the strength from 89,000 to 81,268 men. This reduction even would not, at the end of the year, bring the strength of the army so low as it was when the Duke of Wellington left office, and which, at that period, amounted to 81,164 men. With regard to the expense attending this unnecessary force, he must remind the Committee of its amount, in former years, as

979
compared with the vote proposed in the present estimates, amounting to no less than 3,056,873 l. In the years 1822, 1823, and 1824, the expense of the army was as follows:—In 1822, 2,500,000 l.; in 1823, 2,500,000 l.; and, in 1824, 2,700,000 l.; and, in the year 1830, the amount was 3,015,000 l. The question he put to the Committee was, whether the country was prepared to keep up so large a military establishment as was proposed? and if so, for what purpose such an establishment could be wanted? There existed no necessity for such a force being kept up, while the expense arising from the number of useless officers at present attached to each corps was unnecessarily great. A comparison with the military strength of the country in the year 1792 showed that the present strength was uncalled for and unnecessary. He admitted, that the military service abroad was, as had been urged by the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, severe, and that the colonial service was, from the nature of the climate, and other causes, oppressive both to officers and men; but he was prepared to show, that the number of troops kept in the colonies was not at all necessary, neither was it requisite that a force of 23,000 men should be maintained in Ireland. In the Ionian Islands a force of from 3,000 to 5,000 strong had been kept up for the last twenty years, though, by the stipulations entered into between those islands and this country, the former undertook to pay for all above a certain number. The Government of this country had, by disarming the inhabitants, who were otherwise well able to protect themselves, rendered it necessary to send British troops to protect them, at the expense of the British public. He contended, that if this country could not intrust the inhabitants of these islands with arms to defend and protect themselves, such a possession was not worth keeping, when the expense was considered. In North America, the force amounted to between 4,000 and 5,000 men, when he had reason to believe that from 400 to 500 men would be sufficient, provided that the inhabitants were treated by the Government of this country as freemen, and not interfered with by orders and counter-orders issued from Downing-street. He also believed, that in the Mauritius a force of 500 men would be sufficient, for
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he understood that a statement had been made to the Government, that if a Legislative Assembly was granted to that colony, the colonists would not only pay the troops, but also liberate the slaves. He was prepared to prove at the bar of the House, that such an offer had been made to the Government of this country. With respect to the force maintained in Ireland, why should 23,000 soldiers, exclusive of artillery, and an extensive armed police force, be there required, when, in the years 1788, 1789, and 1790, the whole military force did not amount to more than from 8,000 to 9,000 men? Rather than such a force should be kept up in Ireland at so enormous an expense, he would bring away all the parsons, and consent to a vote for their maintenance during the rest of their lives. He called upon the Committee to agree with him in refusing its consent to the maintenance of so large a force, as the only means of compelling the Government to reduce the army. He admitted the question was not merely important to the country, but was also a Cabinet question; and he would, therefore, call in aid of his position with respect to it the opinions which had been expressed by the Committee appointed by the House at the instance of the Government in 1822. He need not, in reference to the resolutions of that Committee, say more, than to hope it would be borne in mind, that there was then a most efficient opposition to a Tory Government—an opposition which compelled a reduction in the military establishment of the country below the present force of nearly 10,000 men. That reduction had been so effected by a resolution adopted by the House; and he trusted that a Reformed Parliament would seethe necessity of carrying into effect, on this occasion, the resolution for a reduction in the force which an Unreformed House had adopted. Even the Committee appointed under the Castlereagh Administration had recommended a reduction of the army in times of peace, and the resolution which had been proposed by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in July last, recommending such a reduction in the expenditure of every department of the State as was consistent with the public interests, fortified him in his position; so, also, the recommendation of the Committee, in 1828, of which the right hon. Baronet, the member for Dundee, was chairman. On these grounds he

981
contended, that the forces in the colonies ought to be reduced to a number consistent with the average in the three years, 1822 to 1824. Besides, the Horse and Life Guards might very properly be reduced, though he had no objection that some of those troops should be retained for a little parade and show. These regiments, had, however, increased in a most unnecessary degree. The strength of the Life Guards in the year 1792 was but 41, while it was now upwards of 974; and that of the Horse Guards, in 1792 was 271 men, and in the present year, 437 men; making a total of 1,311 rank and file. There was, besides, an excess upon the number of men in the Dragoon regiments, compared with the year 1792, of upwards of 3,000 rank and file, and in the Foot Guards of 1,504. For these three excesses no excuse had been offered; nor did he know any reason which could be assigned against their reduction. In addition to these, there could be well spared from the strength in the colonies not less than 9,000 men; and it would, therefore, be a very moderate reduction if the Committee should agree with him in what he asked—namely, to bring the effective strength of the army to that of the years 1822 and 1824. If that were not acceded to, he was at a loss to know in what way a reduction in the expenditure of the country could be effected. The Reformed Parliament would but ill discharge its duty, if it refused to accede to the proposition which it was his intention to make—namely, a reduction of 9,000 men from the amount calculated to remain of effective troops—81,000; which would still leave a force of upwards of 72,000—a force greater than that maintained during the year 1823. In making this reduction, he would not discharge from the service a single man without a pension, unless he should desire it; but, as he understood, that not less than 10,000 men were at present desirous to leave the service, on merely obtaining their discharge, no expense would be entailed upon the country by an addition to the Pension-list from the reduction which he proposed. He felt bound to repeat the expression of his satisfaction at the statement with which the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of War had opened the Estimates; but, as the question rested with the House of Commons, he hoped an opinion would be expressed upon the subject, as had been before done by an unre-
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formed Parliament. The hon. Member concluded, by moving, as an amendment, "that the number of land forces for the year, including the allowance for casualties, which would reduce the army to 72,268 men before the end of the year, be 79,952 men.
Mr. Secretary Stanleyfelt satisfied, from what he had observed during the course of the clear address of his right hon. friend, the Secretary at War, and the speech of the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Committee would be of opinion that the proposed reduction was not only unnecessary, but would be, in its effects, most mischievous. He could not refrain, however, from expressing his opinion, that, as the hon. member for Middlesex had raised no objection to the military establishment of the country, but merely to the number of men constituting the forces, that the hon. Member's real objection amounted to this—that let the Government bring forward what Estimates they pleased—let the Government effect what reductions were practicable, the hon. Gentleman would oppose them; for, it appeared to be part of the business and the profession of the hon. Gentleman to compete with the Government in economy. Though there was a diminution in the present Estimates from those of last year of little less than 300,000 l., and though a greater force was proposed to be maintained at this diminution of expense, the hon. Gentleman had asked if this was the boasted economy of the present Government. It was true, it was only proposed to reduce the force to the strength maintained in 1830; but, he must remind the hon. Gentleman, that the aggregate expense in that year was 3,688,000 l., while, in the year 1834, it amounted only to 3,308,000 l. ["No, no," from Mr. Hume.] He knew not whether the hon. Member was better in formed than the War-office Department, from whose documents he was speaking. [Mr. Hume took his information from the Estimates.] The total amount of the Army Estimates for the year 1830 amounted to 6,123,000 l., while those for the year 1834 amounted to 5,772,000 l. The hon. Member had adopted, as his two favourite periods, the year 1792, and 1822 to 1824. He would admit that, on the amount of the colonial force must depend, in a great measure, the amount of the strength of the whole army. Now, the colony of New South Wales—he was aware that these details were dry and dull, but, as

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the hon. Gentleman had gone into a statement of figures, it was necessary to follow his example—the colony of New South Wales, in the year 1792, contained a population of 6,600, and 420 men were stationed there for their protection. Now, when the Committee considered the nature of the population in that colony, and the necessity of affording the settlers due protection, and when it was considered that that population was now increased sixfold, he thought the Committee would be of opinion that a force of 2,217 men was not too large to be maintained there. In this instance, indeed, there was an increase of nearly 1,800 men, but the peculiar circumstances in which the colony was placed, justified the augmented amount. Then there were the Windward and Leeward Islands. In 1792 there were 3,200 troops stationed in the former; in 1834, 3,075. At the former period, in the island of Jamaica, the number of troops employed was 2,680; at the present time, 4,018. It was not necessary for him to explain to hon. Members the reason of this increase, and he would, therefore, pass on to Canada, where, in 1792, with a population of 185,000, 2,800 men were employed. In 1834, the population amounted to 750,000, but the troops maintained there were only 2,575. In Nova Scotia, during the former period, the number of men was 2,490, at present but 2,360; and, in Gibraltar, it was found, that, in place of 3,600 men who garrisoned that fortress in 1792, 2,575 were now sufficient for that purpose. Thus the Committee would see, and the hon. Member would also see, that there was an increase of the military establishments kept on foot in the colonies, on comparing together the two periods, in two colonies only, Jamaica and New South Wales. In the case of the latter colony, he could not agree with the hon. Member in thinking that, because the number of inhabitants had increased, the protection afforded them ought to be diminished. In that point, at least, he must venture to differ from him. Then, as to the comparative expense of the two periods referred to, the hon. Member had said, that the economy of 1792 was better than that practised in 1834. The expenses of the staff in 1792 were nearly 34,000 l. and in 1822, 46,329 l.; while the staff expenses for 1834 amounted to 29,957 l.; being 4,310 l. below 1792, and 16,402 l. below the economical year 1822, The number of troops in the new
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colonies altogether amounted to 16,927 men—the same number that was maintained in the old. He would not, however, trouble the House by giving them more figures, as he felt assured, that it was quite satisfied with the statements laid before them by his right hon. friend. He had hoped that the hon. Member would have spared Ministers the opposition which the hon. Member generally made it his business to offer; but events proved that he was mistaken. While he was on this subject, he would beg to call the attention of the hon. and gallant Colonel opposite (Colonel Evans) to the fact, that the question of the force at present kept up in the Ionian Islands had been mixed up with the subject before the House. He thought it a question well deserving inquiry, and a proposition for the reduction of the number of troops maintained there was under the consideration of Government. He, therefore, begged the hon. and gallant Member would recollect, that the amount of military force kept up in the colonies, and in the Ionian Islands, were two totally distinct things. In the whole of our colonies there were only 33,500 men; and he was sure, that if hon. Members would take time to reflect, they would find that it would be extremely unsafe to effect any reduction in that portion of our military force. His right hon. friend near him had made no exaggeration in his statement of the sufferings endured by the British soldier in time of peace; ten years was the lowest term for which a regiment remained abroad, and the state of the army was such, that in three or four years more it would devolve upon the same regiment to go again abroad. The hon. Member had complained of a slight increase in the number of the Horse-Guards, and had said, they were maintained only for show and for the purpose of occasionally assisting to preserve the peace. But, in a country like this, with an immense Metropolis, and thickly studded with large manufacturing towns, where so vast a mass of property was to be protected, that increase of which the hon. Member complained was a most salutary precaution. The military arm of the State ought to be reserved for those cases of necessity which sometimes unhappily occurred; but, however greatly he might regret having to call out its strength, it was, at least, in a country so densely peopled, a matter of satisfaction that there was such a force to fall back upon, in the event of the civil

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power proving insufficient. Having said thus much, he would come to the state of Ireland. In the present situation of that country, it would be impossible to make any further reduction in the military force kept up there; a large reduction had been made this year; and, he hoped, that as the country became tranquillized, further reduction would be practicable. But, to be safe, reductions must be gradual. They ought not to be made in the spirit of the reductions forced upon the Government in the year 1822. "Then," said the hon. Member, "we had a good Opposition, a good, steady Opposition; the Government wanted to continue the military establishment of the country on the same footing, but I proposed the reduction of 10,000 men, and we carried it." The number was thus reduced to 68,984; but did it remain so? [Mr. Hume: It might.] In the very next year the army was increased to 74,857, and, in the year following, to 85,519. Nor was this all the benefit which the country reaped by the hon. Member's legislation. He succeeded, indeed, in reducing the number of effective men, but he also succeeded in increasing the number of non-effectives, and an additional expense of 100,000 l. was yearly entailed on the country by this precipitous measure. "Look," said the hon. Member, "to the blessings I brought upon you in the year 1822." He would say the same thing with the hon. Member; he also would bid the Committee look back, and then say what they thought of the results of this hasty, ill-advised, and rash reduction. In conclusion, he would beg the Committee not to sanction, by their support, a plan so precipitate, and, as he thought, imprudent.
Colonel Evanscontended, that if the military force kept up in the colonies was based upon population, there was no reason why the colonies should have 33,000 men to protect them, when 22,000 were found enough for Ireland. He particularly wished to know, also, why garrisons were maintained in islands, as if we had no navy? With respect to Ireland, he thought, that if the Coercion Bill were worth anything, it ought to have enabled the Government to dispense with keeping up so large a force there. The noble Lord, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in 1822, had said, that our colonies were to be considered as valuable either for commercial purposes, or for keeping up
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our military strength; but he (Colonel Evans) did not exactly see how colonies could add to our military strength, when forces were employed in the colonies, which other parts of the empire might need. He wished to make an observation or two relating to the chaplaincy of Chelsea Hospital. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had, it was said, the intention of appointing a gentleman of the name of Gleig to this situation, and he was induced to refer to this on dit, in consequence of seeing that gentleman's name mentioned in a very disagreeable manner. He had known him in the army, when he was but seventeen or eighteen years old, and having enjoyed the advantage of his acquaintance, he had had the opportunity of seeing him discharge the duties of his parish in the country, and he was bound to say, that a more exemplary character never lived. He had been charged with the editorship of a violent political paper; but he neither was at that time, nor had been at any time, the editor of any paper whatever.
Major Beauclerkwas convinced, that the statement which had that evening been laid before the House would give more satisfaction to the country than any act which had proceeded from the Government for a long time. He had not been a flatterer of the Government, and would not give them his support on the present question, unless he believed they were acting on sound principles; and really when he found his hon. friend the member for Middlesex coming forward with a proposal for the immediate reduction of 9,000 men, he could not go so far as his hon. friend. The consequence would be, that the young men would leave the army, and the old would remain in it, and in a year or two they would be obliged to give pensions to the old men, who would be disabled from further service. The conduct of Ministers on this occasion had been throughout manly, open, and fair, though, if no further progress were made next year, he should be as ready to oppose Ministers as he was now to tender them his support.
Sir Henry Hardingedid not think it his duty as a public man to cripple the efficiency of the army by unnecessary reductions. His Majesty's Ministers were, in his opinion, the best judges of what the number of the army should be, as the proper consideration of the question de-

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pended on so many circumstances, and required so much patient and laborious investigation, that few but themselves could form any tolerable decision. At present we had reached the minimum of reduction. He would venture to say, that it would be found on experiment impossible to carry reduction further. Of his personal knowledge the 83rd regiment had come from India, after a stay of twenty-four years in that country, in 1829, and was now about to proceed to Canada; and three other regiments, after a like period of service, and a like stay abroad, were, in the course of the year, to be again embarked for a foreign destination. Why, there was no service in the world like it, ancient or modern. A popular assembly like that was not the best calculated to enter into these inquiries, and the best way would be for the House to give their confidence to Ministers—not, to be sure, a reckless confidence, and to look to their superior information for a proper estimate of the necessities of the empire. The hon. and gallant Member read an extract of a letter from the Duke of York, stating, that, in 1822, he had mentioned to Ministers the ineffective state of the army in consequence of the reduction suddenly forced on the Crown, and that Lord Londonderry replied, that if the experiment succeeded, the revenues of the State would be improved; if not, the country would gain experience, and thus either way would be beneficial, and must carry conviction along with it. That experiment was a signal failure, and it was found necessary in the following year to increase the army considerably, and, in 1824, the augmentation was confirmed in that House by a majority of 102 votes to 10, one of which was given by the hon. member for Middlesex. In the year 1825, a further addition was made to the army of 12,000, and the hon. Member, in his opposition to this, found himself in a minority of 5 to 106—move than 20 to 1. At that late hour he would not fatigue the House by entering any further into detail. He would observe only, that there was a charge of 20,000 l. less for the effective service in 1830 than in this year. In the instance of the land-forces there had been an increase of 29,740 l.; in the volunteer corps, of 21,000 l. On the other hand, there had been a saving in other parts of the Estimate. There had been on the whole an augmentation of 50,000 l.; and
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a diminution of 27,000 l. So that, in point of fact, there was in this year a charge of about 23,000 l. more on the effective service than in 1830. The right hon. Secretary for the Colonies had stated, that a reduction had taken place in the Staff. He begged to remind him, that all the reductions at home in the Staff had taken place in the years 1828, 1829, and 1830, and were therefore to be put to the credit of the late Administration. He was rather inclined to think indeed that at home the Estimate had been raised; and he knew of no reduction of the Staff which had taken place in the colonies, excepting only in the Ionian Islands. With respect to the Estimate as a whole, it appeared to be 318,000 l. lower than it was in 1830; but the diminution was caused by reductions upon the non-effective service, through the falling in of pensions and of half-pay. The Ministry had made of real reduction, if he might be allowed the words, a diminution only of 30,000 l. in an expenditure of 3,000,000 l., and they felt that, without prejudice to the army they could go no further. He should not enter into details at present. On a future occasion, there were points to which he would beg to call the attention of the right hon. Secretary. He should have to ask him a question respecting the pensioners—a question which he had more than once asked during the last two or three years. He alluded to the practice of buying up pensions, which he considered to be a most cruel and discreditable one. When they came to this subject, he had no doubt the right hon. Secretary would be ready to give him all the information he desired. He should also have to call the attention of the right hon. Secretary to a passage in page 76 of the Estimates, which, if not in itself deception, was yet calculated to convey an erroneous impression to the House. It was there set forth, that there was a saving to the amount of 61,000 l., whereas in reality, there was only a reduction of 19,000 l. This arose from the right hon. Secretary's having taken larger credit for this year than was usual. He recommended the right hon. Gentleman to adopt the same plan in drawing up his Estimates as was pursued in the Ordnance Department, wherein the vote was always distinguished from the charge. He must inform the hon. member for Middlesex, that the Commander-in-Chief was not in the habit of in-

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terfering with the Secretary-at-War in the discharge of his proper duties. He appealed to the Committee it it were not the fact, that the charge, although made, was not proved? There were some other things, which, as a military man, he might be expected to notice. Allusion had been made to the Life-Guards. It was true that reproaches had been formerly cast upon the Life-Guards, and not without justice; but since they had been first sent out on foreign service they had become a most distinguished corps. They had fairly fought their way to the increase of strength which they had received. As to the Foot-Guards, in which he once had himself the honour to serve, every man of proper feeling must applaud the conduct and appearance of that corps, and see that no better or more disciplined corps could be, nor one in better harmony with the feelings of an independent people. It might be well to state also, that the amount of the establishment of Guards was smaller in 1834 than it had been in 1792. In conclusion, the right hon. Gentleman repeated his belief, that while the Government had done all that could be expected from them in the way of reduction with respect to the effective service, the fact was, that little had been left for them to accomplish.
Colonel Damescould not support his hon. friend's Amendment, which he hoped would be withdrawn.
Mr. Gisbornealso declined supporting the Amendment, though he disputed the doctrines put forth by the Secretary for the Colonies. The speech of the hon. Secretary-at-War had convinced him of the inexpediency of acceding to his hon. friend's Amendment.
The Committee divided on Mr. Hume's Amendment: Ayes 46; Noes 282—Majority 236.

List of the AYES.

ENGLISH.

Jervis, J.

Aglionby, H. A.

Kennedy, J.

Baines, E.

Lister, C.

Brocklehurst, J.

Lloyd, J. H.

Brotherton, J.

Parrott, J.

Clay, W.

Potter, R.

Evans, Colonel

Romilly, E.

Ewart, W.

Scholefield, J.

Faithfull, G.

Scrope, P.

Fellowes, Hon. N.

Strutt, E.

Fellowes, W. A.

Trelawney, W. L. S.

Fielden, J.

Turner, W.

Grote, G.

Whalley, Sir S.

Humphery, J.

Wood, Alderman

Ingilby, Sir W.

Williams, Colonel

990

SCOTCH.

O'Connell, Maurice

Gillon, W. D.

O'Connell, M.

Parnell, Sir II.

O'Connell, J.

IRISH.

O'Connor, Feargus

Blake, M.

O'Dwyer, A. C.

Evans, George

Ruthven, E. S.

Finn, W. F.

Ruthven, E.

Jacob, E.

Vigors, N. A.

Lalor, P.

TELLER.

O'Connell, Daniel

Hume, J.

Preamble
MINUTES.] Bills. Read a second time—Exchequer Bills Transfer of Aids.
Petitions presented. By the Bishop of BATH and WELLS, from several Places, for Protection to the Established Church.—By the Earls of SEFTON, UXBRIDGE, and FITZWILLIAM, Lord HOLLAND, and the Marquess of LANSDOWN, from a Number of Places,—for Relief to the Dissenters.—By the Bishop of LICHFIELD and COVENTRY, and the Bishop of BATH and WELLS, from several Places,—for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Viscount MELBOURNE, from two Places, for the Abolition of the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland—By Earl FITZWILLIAM, from the Chamber of Commerce in Edinburgh, for the Abolition of the Com Laws.—By the Earl of DURHAM, from Ardquir, for the Abolition of Tithes in Ireland.