Sitting of 19 February 1834

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Bankrupts Estates; Roman Catholic Marriages (Scotland).—Read a second time:—Transfer of Aids Exchequer 14,000,000 l. Bill.
Petitions presented. By Mr. WARBURTON, from the Obstetric Society of London, to include the Practice of Midwifery in any Laws to be enacted for the Improvement. of the Medical Profession.—By Mr. FITZISRON, from Lush and Rush, for a Repeal of the Union.—By Mr. GUEST, from the Baptists in Glamorganshire, for Relief.—By Mr. SINCLAIR, from Bower, for an Alteration in the System of Lay Patronage in Scotland.—By Captain YORKE, from the Clergy of the Archdeaconry of Ely, for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day; and also for upholding the National Religious Establishment—By Mr. HODGES, from several Places in Kent, for the Repeal of the Malt Tax, and the Abolition of Tithes in England and Ireland.—By Mr. PALMER, from several Places, for the Repeal of the Malt Tax; and by Mr. RUTHVEN, from Knockbreda, for the Abolition of Tithes.

AGRICULTURE—MALT TAX.
Lord Hennikerpresented a petition, signed by 1,600 of the inhabitants of the hundred of Hoxne, praying, that the Malt-tax might be repealed. They complained of the great agricultural distress of the country, which they attributed, in a great measure, to the Malt-tax, and other taxes bearing on agriculture. He fully concurred in the statement of the agricultural distress, and in the general prayer of the petition.
Mr. Sinclairsaid, that the rent of land was everywhere falling, and, notwithstanding the reduction of rent, the prosperity of the farmers was not on the increase. It would astonish the agriculturists of Scotland not a little, when they found those classes who were declared to be in a state of prosperity, were receiving that relief from taxation which was withheld from another class who were said not to be in a flourishing condition.
Captain Yorkewould be very happy to give relief of any description; but he looked with great suspicion upon the repeal of the Malt-tax, as a mode of giving relief to the agriculturists. He questioned much whether, in the end, it would give relief, as he felt that, if the
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Malt-tax were repealed, there must be some other tax placed upon property in general in its stead. There had been for some time a powerful party in that House who were looking for an opportunity to advance their own interests—he meant the manufacturers—who would have this argument against the agriculturists—namely, that as soon as the Malt-tax was taken off, it would be a reason for importing corn duty free. For this reason he questioned, whether the repeal of the Malt-tax would give substantial relief to the agricultural interests.
Mr. Ruthvenwas aware of the great distress that prevailed in the agricultural class; it was communicated to the House by the Speech of his Majesty; but there was no use in suggesting remedies by taking off the Malt, or Window, or House-taxes; the great debt of the nation should be reduced; the interest of that enormous debt should be lowered; for otherwise nothing could avert the general calamity that was impending over the country.
Mr. Hardywas of opinion, that the Malt-tax should be repealed, and an additional tax laid on spirituous liquors—the consumption of which was so general, and the bad effects of which were so universally felt. It was for the interest and happiness of the manufacturing classes, that the Malt-tax should be repealed, as then they could brew their own beer.
Mr. Brothertonsaid, he would vote for an alteration in the Corn-laws. It would tend to the prosperity of the landed and manufacturing interests. At present, the landowners enjoyed a monopoly which was injurious to the rest of the community; and, as long as that was continued, he should object to the repeal of the Malt-tax; though, if the agricultural interest were wise, it would give up its monopoly and encourage manufactures, as the surest method to increase the value of land.
Lord William Lennox, said the hon. member for Salford had talked of the agricultural interests holding a monopoly. He knew of none that they possessed. It was admitted, on all sides, that they were greatly distressed; and yet a few hon. Members talked of their burthens being lighter than those of the manufacturing interests. Had hon. Members ever looked into the Poor-rates? If they had, they would see how the landed interest was taxed. He would prove, that the agricul-

551
tural districts, paid more than double the amounts of Poor-rates paid by the manufacturing districts. By a calculation he was about to submit to the House, it would know how to value the statements

Principally Agricultural.

Population.

Total Expenditure, Poor Rates.

About average cost per head.

1821.

1831.

1821.

1831.

1821.

1831.

£.

£.

£.

s.

d.

£.

s.

d.

Norfolk

344,368

390,054

267,869

358,227

0

15

6

0

18

4

Suffolk

270,542

269,304

244,801

313,405

0

18

1

1

1

2

Essex

289,424

317,233

288,911

324,421

0

19

10

1

0

5

Sussex

233,019

272,328

276,499

328,709

1

3

8

1

4

2

Principally Manufacturing.

Lancaster

1,052,859

1,336,854

288,688

421,770

0

5

6

0

6

3

Staffordshire

345,895

410,485

151,177

179,036

0

8

8

0

8

8

Warwickshire

274,392

336,988

164,799

210,502

0

12

0

0

12

6

York, West Riding.

801,274

976,415

330,510

376,092

0

8

3

0

7

8

England

11,261,437

13,089,358

6,674,938

8,316,651

0

11

10

0

12

8

He hoped the House would see, from that statement, the fallacy of the assertion, that agriculture was not more burthened than manufactures. He would not, upon that occasion, enter into the question of the Corn-laws, further than to say, that he was opposed to any alteration in the present system.
Mr. Edward Ruthvensaid, that, in Ireland, the interests of the occupiers of the soil, and of the owners of the soil, were two very different things. The owner of the soil, in that country, took from the occupier every fraction that the soil produced, except a bare sustenance. The occupier made nothing by his labour but the food he consumed; not so in England, where the occupier or farmer required more than food and sustenance for his family. He was quite satisfied, that so long as landlords kept up the present high rates of land, the people would be in poverty and distress.
Mr. Feargus O'Connorrepresented a large agricultural county in Ireland, and therefore wished to show the distinction between these two classes in the two countries. In England, as soon as any portion of the fair profits of the occupier were taken away, he began to complain; but in Ireland the agriculturist never complained until all was gone. This was neither an agricultural, nor a manufacturing question. The two interests must stand or fall together. The noble Lord, when he brought forward his budget the other night, had played them a pretty trick. He took off 1,200,000 l., and laid on 600,000 l., and
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of those who declared that the farmer was not so badly off as the manufacturer. His Lordship then made the following statement:—
put it as a bone of contention to set the agricultural and manufacturing interests a fighting. Were he an English Member, and an Englishman, he would vote for a total repeal of the Corn-laws; but he was not prepared to do so as an Irish Member, representing a great agricultural county, because there was a great difference between the landlords of the two countries.
Sir Charles Burrellcould assure hon. Members, that the reduction of rents throughout England upon the Poor-lands had been above one-half. He thought it right to state this plainly and fairly. He was sure that it had been more than that upon his own land, and upon that of most of his neighbours. It was right that this should be stated, because misrepresentations had gone abroad. When the trading interests were distressed, they obtained relief in various ways from the Government; and he thought there should be no unkind feeling on their part towards the landed interest, who were their best customers.
Mr. Potterwas quite sure that the manufacturing and commercial interests were opposed to monopolies; and that in general they were the advocates of free trade. Honourable Gentlemen from the agricultural districts complained of the great pressure of the poor-rates; but he could not help thinking a good deal of it was occasioned by mismanagement. In Manchester the poor-rate, for the last seven years, had not averaged more than 3s. 6d. in the pound. Employment was, no doubt, more abundant in manufactur-

553
ing districts; but a much better system was pursued in them than in the farming districts. In the latter, the industrious and independent labourer was put on a footing with the idle and dissipated one, which produced the worst consequences.
Mr. Finchconceived it to be a great absurdity to say, that the interests of the manufacturer and the agriculturist were different. He was persuaded, in his own mind, that a repeal of the Corn-laws would be very injurious to the manufacturing interest. The exportation of English manufactures would not only be greatly diminished, but the price would be very materially affected. Something, in his opinion, ought to be done to relieve the distress of the agriculturists. They had suffered very severe losses, which had occasioned a destruction of capital that was almost incredible; and to suppose, in their present state, they could compete with the Northern countries of Europe, where their productions were untaxed, would be to suppose the greatest of all absurdities. This effect, however, would be produced by a repeal of the Corn-laws—it would throw immense tracts of land, not only in this country, but more particularly in Ireland, out of cultivation. Whether the House should feel disposed to repeal the Malt-duty or not, something must be done to relieve the agriculturists from the burthens by which they were now oppressed.
Mr. Charles A. Walkeradmitted, that absenteeism was a great curse to Ireland, but, at the same time, he must say, that many of the absentee landlords of that country were as merciful to their tenants as the residents. He admitted that the absentee landlords did great injury by spending their property in another country, but, with respect to the aristocracy of Ireland, he must be allowed to say, that they were not tyrants over their peasantry. The tyrants were not the aristocracy or the gentlemen, but the middlemen, who took the land from the landlord. Last year there was a kind of set made against the landlords and landed interest of Ireland. They were now saddling the landlords with the county cess, with tithes, and poor-rates, and threatened them with a repeal of the Corn-laws. There must be a reduction of rent if the Corn-laws were repealed, and in that case the landlords of Ireland would receive nothing.
Petition to lie on the Table.
Mr. Hodgespresented a petition from Leeds, Kent, praying for a repeal of the Malt-tax. In his opinion, there could be no more substantial relief to the agriculturists than the repeal of the Malt-tax. With regard to the observation, that the rent ought to be reduced as a means of relief, it was a matter of notoriety, that, on all the middling land of England, the rent had already fallen, and, in a short time, he feared a similar fall would extend over the whole country.
Mr. Andrew Johnstonthought it would be a very proper measure to lay an additional duty upon spirits. He had reason to believe that a proposition would be made from Scotland for an increase of the duty upon spirits. The returns from the police would show to what a lamentable extent demoralization prevailed there in consequence of the consumption of ardent spirits. A proposition would be brought forward, for raising the duty on spirits in Scotland to that of England.
Mr. Stricklandsaid, he should hear a proposition for the increase of taxes with pain. All the country were looking for a reduction of taxation; and any argument, drawn from what he could not help calling spurious morality, was a very bad one. There was no greater fallacy than to say that, by placing a tax on the spirits and food of the people, their condition could be improved. They would not, by that, be improved, either in their habits or virtuous principles; but, increase their education, and the effect would be immediate on both. They would become soon sensible of their own bad habits, and the dreadful effects of ardent spirits on their health. Instruction was the quickest mode of bettering a people, because it made them susceptible of good feeling, and taught them to appreciate the advantages of virtuous habits. To increase taxation could never alleviate the people's distress. He most heartily concurred with the hon. Gentleman who wished for a repeal of the Malt-tax, for he knew that the agriculturists were in a state of great distress, and he should be most happy to hear that the state of the revenue allowed of the repeal of that lax. The Corn-laws had brought the trade of this country to an unnatural state, and if they were revised, that would afford the greatest relief to the people at large. With regard to the question of reducing the rentals, hon. Members must

555
surely be aware, that since the peace, rents were reduced one-half.
Mr. Hardyfully concurred in the observations made by the hon. Member (Mr. Johnston) in favour of increasing the tax on spirits. Some speculative evils might be imagined from the increase of taxation, perhaps, but they bore no comparison with the overwhelming evils that daily afflicted the country from the use of that "liquid fire" which the people were in the habit of drinking. He was an advocate for education certainly; but every improvement that could be made in the morality of the people should be effected, independently of improving their education. It was not to be supposed that there were not different modes of increasing the comfort and bettering the habit of a people as well as teaching them writing and arithmetic. Do away with the gin-shops, and it would have the most salutary effects on the minds of the people.
Petition laid on the Table.

EQUITABLE APPORTIONMENTS.
Mr. Poulter: Sir, in rising to move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the provisions of the Statute 11 Geo. 2, c. 19, sect. 15 and to apply the principle of equitable apportionment to all property which consists in periodical and fixed money-payments, such as rents, rent-charges, annuities, and dividends of all kinds, where the party dies before the day of payment, it is more difficult to assign a cause why so obvious and just a principle should have been so long neglected, than to suggest a reason-able ground for the proposed Legislative enactment. In all subjects relating to the payment of public officers, the principle has been fully admitted and acted upon, and though formerly the Judges were dependent for their salaries on the event of their living to the day of payment, that defect has been remedied by Act of Parliament. If a rule is so equitable, that it has been introduced, without exception, into all subjects of modern creation and of public institution, why should it be any longer excluded from matters of property? The evil has its origin in nothing but an old technical rule of the common law, originating in feudal times, that rent is indivisible, and must go entirely to the person entitled on the day it becomes due; so that, if a party has a life-interest in a rent of any amount whatever, and
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the rent be reserved annually, though he lives 364 days of the year and then dies, his representatives are entitled to nothing. This old and injurious rule has found its way into all periodical payments whatever, and they are governed, to this day, by what I must call an ancient and inveterate absurdity. It may be said, that most limited interests are created by the act of a grantor, and that the evil may be prevented by his special disposition; but, in truth, it is rarely anticipated, and, therefore, not provided for. It is in practice a casus omissus. Though the case of proprietor's is not the same as that of public officers, it is less different than would at first sight appear. Public officers are recompensed for personal services. Proprietors are also paid in respect of some supposed meritorious consideration. Rent is the compensation for the enjoyment of land; and why should it not be in all cases precisely apportioned to, and concurrent with, the degree and duration of that enjoyment? It seems most equitable, that a person under whom the occupation of land is enjoyed, should receive the compensation for it, up to the time of his death. A party entitled to a life or limited interest in dividends from Government or other funds, represents, for that period, the person who originally advanced a sum in gross, either to the nation, or some public body. That sum must be taken to have produced a general benefit to the nation, or other public interest. As long as the party lives, he is to be considered as the person from whom that benefit was derived. Why, then, should not the dividend, which is the compensation for the sum in gross, be divisible and apportioned? Why, if a party die on the 4th of July, should his representatives lose entirely that dividend, which is nothing but the return made by the nation for the use of money which has, or must be supposed to have, conferred a benefit on the State between the 5th of January and the 5th of July? It would have been extremely difficult, if not impracticable, to apply the principle of apportionment to tithes; but the measure I propose to introduce will have the most beneficial operation on the approaching Bill for the commutation of tithes, and especially on the interests of the poorer clergy. The incumbent of a benefice, entitled to a rent-charge in lieu of tithes, may happen to die just before the rent is payable; he has performed every-

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duty, and incurred every incumbrance and expense incident to a large portion of the year, without being entitled to any part of that rent which is about to become due. It is most desirable to prevent the occurrence of a manifest injustice, which is involved in the emolument not being inseparably attached to the proportion and extent of service performed. The evil sought to be remedied is not succeeded by any corresponding evil. The general good obtained, is an unmixed good. All the habits of mankind—all the reasonable wants of society—all the interests of families are consulted by this measure. An establishment is maintained—a family is provided for, in the hope and expectation of an approaching benefit and receipt. Large expenses are incurred. Before the arrival of the important day, the owner of the life-interest is suddenly taken away; by death. What an additional calamity is inflicted at such a moment by the severe loss of means now become still more essential! Does the effect of such a Bill merely transfer disappointment from-one to another? It does no such thing. The person receiving a benefit by the present state of the law, has not the slightest hope of it—he has not calculated for any such event—by him it is wholly unsuspected and unlooked for. It is quite unnecessary to state instances of hardship—they are without number. I will now, therefore, conclude, by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to the above effect.
Leave granted to bring in the Bill.

COUNTY CORONERS.
Mr. Crippsmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law regulating County Coroners (England). The subject which he introduced to the House had been already brought under its notice; and he thought it was one well entitled to the consideration of the Legislature. The contests at Coroners' elections, the feuds and bad feeling they produced, and the ruinous expense with which they were often attended, were evils that called for the interposition of Parliament. At present the election was vested in the voters of the county at large, though the duties of the officer might be confined to a particular district. It was highly desirable that the election of a judicial functionary like a Coroner should not be carried by means that tended to produce discord and immorality. He would propose that the
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Magistrates should divide the counties into certain districts, and that each district should have its own Coroner, who should be elected by the voters residing in that particular district. He would not have a whole county made a scene of turmoil on account of a Coroner's election. He would also apply a remedy to the difficulties now experienced in collecting Jurors and witnesses, for he would grant the power of inflicting a fine of 40 s. on each Juror and witness for non-attendance. The Amendments he meant to introduce were designed to remove the opposition which the Bill would probably meet with if left in its former state in the Upper House.
Mr. Warburtonregretted that the hon. Member had confined himself merely to the election of Coroners. He (Mr. Warburton) should feel it his duty to give notice of the introduction of a declaratory clause, to the effect that the Coroner's Court was an open Court. At present the general opinion was, that it was an open Court; but it would be very desirable that a declaratory clause to that effect should be introduced into the Bill.
Mr. Stricklandconcurred in the necessity of introducing such a Bill as that of which the hon. member for Cirencester had given notice. It was perfectly true that, at present, when the Coroner was elected by the whole county, any person seeking that office was put to an enormous expense. It was said, that, occasionally, so large a sum as 100,000 l. was expended to procure a seat in that House, and he could assure hon. Members that a sum comparatively as large was occasionally expended at the election of a county Coroner. No person could for a moment doubt the propriety of having a Coroner's Court an open Court. He believed, in fact, that it was legally so, and that those who closed the doors against the public upon an inquest, did so unadvisedly and without authority. However, if there was any doubt upon the subject, it would be well that a declaratory clause should be introduced into the Bill, of which the hon. Member had given notice. He regretted that the hon. Member had not also included the subject of Coroner's fees. He was very anxious that a satisfactory clause upon this subject should be introduced into the Bill. At present, a Coroner was entitled only to the sum of 1l. for attending an inquest, and not unfrequently he

559
was obliged to hire a room at a great expense. In fact, by the present law, the Coroners of counties could not pay their expenses, and they were thus placed in a disadvantageous position. He, however, certainly did not wish to increase the county rates; and he would suggest that this matter should be referred to a Select Committee.
Sir Matthew White Ridleywas disposed to support the principle of the measure. But it had been strongly urged by many Coroners that additional remuneration should be given them for their trouble. There could be no doubt, certainly, that at present plenty of candidates were to be found to fill up the vacancies as they occurred, and, therefore, there might not appear any grounds for a Motion to increase the allowances. Seeing, however, that Coroners were allowed only 9d. a mile, and 2s. per day, under any circumstances, he thought the system required revision. He protested he could view the Coroner's Court, not as a final, but as a preliminary Court only, in respect to examination, and he feared if it were declared an open Court great injury might arise in cases of murder, where the perpetrators might escape punishment, from the fact of evidence being published before it was put in a proper train. In short, the ends of justice might often be defeated.
Leave given. Bill brought in and read a first time.