Sitting of 16 April 1834

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. EWART, from Liverpool, for preventing the Importation of Stripped Tobacco from the United States.—By Lords MORPETH and SANDON, Colonel EDWARDS, and Messrs. TODD, JERNINGHAM, LOCKE, JOHNSTONE, FINCH, and BAINES, from a Number of Places,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Lord LUMLEY, from the Members of the Animals' Friends Society, for the Protection of the Dumb Creation.—By Mr. EVANS, from Lusk, for an Inquiry into the State of the Irish Fisheries; and from Nethercross, against the Tithes (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. POTTER, from a Society at Manchester, for Alterations in the High Ways Bill.—By Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE, from the Fish Curers of Fife, for Relieving Vessels from paying Light-House Duties more than once in the Season.—By the same, and Admiral ADAMS, from four Places,—for the Repeal of the Reciprocity of Duties Act; also from three Places, for the Repeal of the Stamp Duty on Receipts—By Lord LUMLEY and Admiral ADAMS, from the Hand-Loom Weavers of Blackrod and Alloa,—for Relief.—By Mr. HUTT, from Kingston-upon-Hull, against the General Register Bill.—By Mr. RIGBY WASON, from Ipswich, for an Alteration in Municipal Corporations.—By Mr. O'CONNELL, from Youghal, for the Repeal of the Union.—By Lord DALMENY, Admiral ADAMS, and Messrs. JOHNSTONE and GASKELL, from several Places,—for an Alteration in the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By Lords MORPETH, LUMLEY, and JOHN RUSSELL, Sir RALPH LOPEZ, and Messrs. GUEST, EWART, LAMRTON, and TYNTE, from a Number of Places, and Dissenting Congregations,—for Relief to the Dissenters.

THE DORCHESTER LABOURERS.
Mr. Hutthad a Petition, signed by upwards of
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7,000 members of the Grand National Trades' Union of Kingston-upon-Hull, imploring his Majesty's Government to remit the punishment inflicted upon the six labourers tried and convicted at the last Dorchester Assizes. He (Mr. Hutt) was not the advocate of the Trades' Unions. He thought them most mischievous in their operation, both towards society at large, and those who became members of such bodies. But that was entirely distinct from the question at present before them. The question was, whether his Majesty's Government, having inflicted the severest penalty the law allowed, for an offence which these people were ignorant they were committing, had not transgressed the bounds of justice and humanity? He had himself been a member of a secret society, and had taken a secret oath. He was aware at the time that he was infringing the law; but when he had heard that it had only been acted upon once in a period of forty years, he conceived that it was obsolete, and that a fine of sixpence would be a sufficient penalty for transgressing such a statute. He hoped it would be clearly understood, that these individuals had not been punished for taking a secret oath, but for having been members of the Trades' Unions. He deplored the conduct of his Majesty's Government towards these men, because there was every reason to hope that these Unions were falling to pieces, and would, if not for this step, ere now, have been totally annihilated. The law, he admitted, should be vindicated, but that vindication should have been tempered with justice, humanity, and discretion.
Mr. Feargus O'Connorbegged to offer a few observations upon the law of the case, although, in doing so, he might, perhaps, be charged with impertinence in placing his opinion in opposition to that of hon. Gentlemen who had yesterday alluded to the Act of Parliament under which these unfortunate men had been tried. It appeared that they had been tried under the 37th Geo. 3rd; and it appeared, also, by a reference to that Act, that it was directed against persons who might attempt to seduce sailors and soldiers from their allegiance. The 52nd Geo. 3rd had been passed for the purpose of explaining the Act, and it was injustice to those men to indict them antler the former, when the latter was in existence. He did not hesitate to say,

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that, if they had been indicted under the 52nd of Geo. 3rd, it could not have been made out that the law had been in the slightest degree infringed. It was plain, from the nature of the oath, and the punishment inflicted, that the crime of these unfortunate men had no reference to the Act under which they had been tried. The hon. and learned Gentleman, the member for Knaresborough, when he had alluded to the Act yesterday, had certainly not read or not considered it properly. These unfortunate men had been most unfairly dealt with. Who, he would ask, had brought forward these Unions, who should really be in their place at that moment? Those persons who had created and used them for their own purposes. It might not be the fashion to speak in that manner, or perhaps it might excite laughter; but he thought that Earl Grey, Lord Brougham, the noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, and the right hon. the Secretary for the Colonies, should be on board the hulks in place of those unfortunate men, for they had been the prime movers and actors in all the transactions which had for their object the promotion of political change by means of unions of the working classes. They were, in short, accessories before the fact, as far as the Dorchester Unionists were concerned. With respect to the Trades' Unions, what was it, he would ask, which caused them to adopt the title of Political Unions? Why, nothing but the imbecile and truckling conduct of the present Whig Government. He was the last man in the world to commend the conduct of those who were guilty; but there could be no doubt, that the unfortunate Dorchester labourers had erred without a knowledge of the law; and such being the case, he considered the sentence a most severe, a most unjust one. Were the present Ministers determined, in spite of every thing they had seen and heard, still to stand between the people and the Throne, cutting off the royal clemency for those who had transgressed the law, because they were not acquainted with it? The Government were actually intimidated by that which had raised themselves into power, and thought themselves justified in pursuing so severe a course, for the purpose of putting an end to the very power they had themselves raised. Would the Government listen to reason? Would they still go on hurrying the people from
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their allegiance? If they did, all he could say was, their perverseness and folly would almost make rebellion a virtue. For his own part, he had no hesitation in saying, they would go on as long as they could find gentlemen to cheer them; but, if they did, they must remember that the cheer would soon be drowned by the condemnation of the people. That House was the place to which the people looked for relief, but relief could never be afforded as long as an imbecile and truckling Ministry sat on the other side of the House. He trusted the Government would adopt a different line of conduct, for they might be assured, if they did not, when convulsion came, they would be taught what it was to stand between his Majesty and his subjects.
Mr. Wasonhad no doubt of the legality of the sentence passed on those unhappy men. The right hon. Baronet, the member for Cumberland, said, that two days had been spent in considering their case; but then the object of inquiry was not whether the sentence was severe, but upon a doubt raised by the counsel, whether the law applied to their case. Every one knew, that when it became the duty of a judge to pronounce sentence of transportation for any crime, it could not be for a less term than seven years; and he was sure, that if such a term as three years could be given to those men for a punishment, the learned judge would have willingly limited their sufferings to that period. Let no doubt be entertained, then, of the legality of the sentence. At the same time, he thought that the Government should have interposed its authority to mitigate the heavy sentence of those men, and make their punishment more proportionate to their crime.
Mr. Rotchdid not consider himself called upon to answer the observations of the hon. Member, as the Act upon which he had relied was an Act subsequent to the Act upon which those persons had been convicted. It was impossible, that the persons in question could have been indicted under the 52nd Geo. 3rd, for it did not apply to their case. He must leave the hon. and learned Member, therefore, to make out a better case. When he quoted this Act on which he (Mr. Rotch) had given his opinion, he would then meet him.
Mr. Feargus O'Connor, in explanation, observed, that he had not plied upon the

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Act to which the hon. Member had alluded. What he had said was, that it was most unjust to indict a person under an Act, when there was a subsequent Act passed to explain it.
Colonel Evanswas of opinion, that the learned judge was not amenable to censure. The whole affair rested with his Majesty's Government. The question was one of great importance to the peace of the country; for it involved the Government as a conflicting party with all the workmen of the country. If the Under Secretary of the Home-Office were present to hear the statements, the noble Lord might, perhaps, give some satisfactory explanation, which was much needed. No person was more adverse than he was to Trades' Unions; he would not defend them, because he considered that industry was a description of property, which ought to be held the most sacred, and left the most free. He was most anxious to extend protection to every individual labourer; and such protection was quite inconsistent with any undue means of intimidation. He thought that his Majesty's Government were right in inflicting some punishment on those men, but it should have been a much lighter one.
The Petition to lie on the Table.

LORDSHIP OF THE TREASURY.
Colonel Evans, in rising to present a petition respectably signed by the Mayor, and others of Hastings, stated, that he should avail himself of this opportunity to put a question to the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Warre), whom he had apprised of his intention to do so. The question was in itself of importance, but infinitely more so, as connected with other matters, to which he should allude. The cause of his taking this matter up, was, that he had been politically, and he might say closely, connected with that part of the county of Sussex, had the pleasure of being acquainted with many of the most respectable and influential of the electors of Hastings, and could not therefore decline to comply with their wishes, in which great numbers concurred, to make this inquiry of the hon. Member for that borough. The question was certainly rather a peculiar one, that of asking a Gentleman if he meant to resign his seat; but then, as he should show, the grounds on which he should do so were even yet more unprecedented, and perfectly justi-
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fied this step. It was in their recollection the first practical evidence of the loss of the confidence of the public by Government was on the occasion of the Admiralty Board. An hon. Member of the House was appointed a Lord of the Admiralty, who accordingly accepted the Chiltern Hundreds, in the full expectation, no doubt, of being re-elected by his constituents. But the important town of Gloucester did not fulfil those expectations. On the contrary, though his family were powerful and esteemed in the neighbourhood, and possessed indeed the most commanding influence in the county, and though he had previously triumphed as an avowed supporter of Ministers, so altered was the opinion of the electors regarding the Ministry, that they now refused to ratify the appointment conferred on him by those Ministers, and supplanted him, by his previously unsuccessful opponent. Accordingly, that office at the Admiralty had remained to this time without a seat in Parliament. Need he mention Westminster and Marylebone, as confirmatory of the displeasure of the public, with the half-and-half unsatisfactory policy pursued by those in power. Again the highly important office of Attorney General became vacant. A similar result was the consequence. In one respect this was satisfactory. It was a further and a very powerful proof of the state of the public mind, and of what Ministers must expect, unless they adhered more faithfully to their former pledges. So far as the Attorney-General individually, however, as a Member of that House, and a useful Law Reformer, was concerned, he much regretted the exclusion of the learned Gentleman; and he would take the opportunity, on that point, of asking a question of the noble Lord opposite, (whose presence at this time as a Cabinet Minister was quite novel and refreshing,) as to whether the Bills of Reform in certain branches of the law, commenced by the Attorney General while he had a seat in the House, were to be abandoned or carried forward by the Government. Much solicitude was entertained out of doors on this point. He should now come more directly to the case referred to. Several months since, a vacancy had occurred in one of the Lordships of the Treasury. Warned by the difficulties alluded to, the Administration, appeared all this time to have failed in obtaining the acceptance of

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this honourable and lucrative office, by any Member of the House. At length the hon. Gentleman opposite appeared to have been prevailed on to entertain the question of accepting this office; but with a condition certainly unusual. The office was previously filled by a Member from the northern division of the empire. It had been contended by the friends of Government, that such a selection was essential for the interests of Scotland. The selection, therefore, of' the hon. Gentleman, was a departure from that rule, as the hon. Member (Mr. Warre) represented, it might be said, the extreme South. But, here, in candour, he was bound to exonerate the Government from all blame—for the hon. Gentleman had proved most satisfactorily, by the condition which he annexed to his acceptance of the office, that he was by no means devoid of that prudence, caution, and wariness which characterised the natives of Scotland. Therefore, next to a Scotchman, the Government acted judiciously in selecting him to look after the fiscal interests of Scotland. He mentioned this with every feeling of high respect for the hon. Gentleman, who very prudently declined the office, when he found, upon inquiry at Hastings, that it was more than likely he should be ousted from his seat. No Government was ever before so situated as the present. It was clear, by these several instances, that they were not proceeding in unison with the sentiments of the constituencies by which they had been previously returned to this House. Both by the theory and practice of the Constitution, the Commons should represent the sentiments, at least of the electors, if not of the people generally. As Ministers could not go on without a majority of the Commons in their favour,—so, consequently, they should, in political conduct, assimilate with the House, and through the House, with the electors. This obviously now was not the case. Finally, the hon. Gentleman having, by a proceeding totally novel, ascertained that those who sent him to the House no longer approved of his public conduct, he denied, that the former supporters of the hon. Gentleman had now a just claim, in order to be more consistently represented, to invite the hon. Gentleman to give way to a candidate who would represent the opinions of the majority of the electors of Hastings.
Mr. Warresaid, it was perfectly true, that an offer had been made him of a seat at the Treasury Board; and, upon that being done, he had acted as he thought it was right to do—communicated it to his friends and supporters, thinking that they had a perfect right to see the position in which he stood; and he was sure, that the gallant Colonel was too well aware of what the place which was offered him was, to suppose that he was actuated in what he had done by any improper considerations. He did not consider it necessary to give any other answer to the observations of the gallant Colonel; what he had done was perfectly well known; he did not repent of it; and by the course he had adopted, he was ready to abide. With respect to the statement of the gallant Colonel, that he had lost his supporters, all he had to say was, that it was as easy to make assertions of that description on the one side as on the other. The town had been placarded, as was usual on all elections; and if the gallant Colonel could draw any inference from that, he was most welcome to do so. He would again repeat, that what he had done he should not repent of, and intended to abide by.
Lord John Russelldid not mean to enter into all the topics that the gallant Colonel had adverted to; but there were one or two points which he felt bound to notice. First, with respect to the course Government intended to pursue with respect to certain bills for the reform of the law; the two principal measures were those which the Attorney-General, when he was a Member of the House, had been pledged to—namely, the Local Courts Bill and the Imprisonment for Debt Bill. With regard to those two measures, it was the fixed intention of his Majesty's Government to carry them through in the present Session. The gallant Colonel had also entered into a discussion with respect to elections, and had taken an opportunity of saying, that in almost every instance of Members of that House taking place under the present Government they lost their seats. That, he was ready to admit, to a certain extent was true; but still the cause of that was very soon explained. The members of former Cabinets had a ready course to regain entrance to the House through a constituency of but few individuals. That, however, was not the case since the passing of the Reform Bill;

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and the present Ministers, almost to a man, represented large constituencies. What had, therefore, taken place was not to be wondered at. At the time of the discussion of the Reform Bill, he foresaw that such might be the case, even though the Government enjoyed the full share of the confidence of the people which it ought to have, and in that he was not mistaken. With respect to the two instances in which they had failed at elections, those of Gloucester and Dudley, he thought that the fair inference to be drawn from the result of those elections was, that Government had been going too rapidly on in the way of innovation, and the people, in order to put a stop to such things, had sent Conservatives into Parliament.
Colonel Evanscould not but give great credit to the noble Lord for the very ingenious manner in which he had accounted for the several failures gentlemen taking office under Government had experienced in endeavouring to obtain a seat in that House.
Petition laid on the Table.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Archbishop of YORK, from two Places, and by the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Axminster,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.

PROGRESS OF EDUCATION.
The Lord Chancellorrose to move for a Return connected with a very important subject—a subject which was at present occupying, to a great extent, the attention of the country. That Return would throw a very great light on the state of education at the present moment, which, as connected with the morals of the people, must be viewed with a considerable degree of interest. He had stated to many who had addressed him on the subject, his reason for hesitating before he brought in a Bill for adopting a general system of education. He had said, when reference had been made to Scotland, that whereas the Bill of Charles 1st (the Parish-School Bill), although it had worked most beneficially for the people of Scotland, because it was adapted to their peculiar situation, yet, did not appear to be equally applicable to the people of this country, their situation being extremely dissimilar. Indeed, when the subject was examined (and it had been examined by a Committee of which he was Chairman), it was found that nothing could be more different from the situation of Scotland when that measure passed into a law, than the situation of England at the present moment. It was not, therefore, right to argue, that because such a measure had effected good in Scotland, the principle should be now adopted with respect to England. The great difference was this—that at the time when the Bill was passed there were no schools in Scotland. Therefore, the best plan that could be devised to remedy that evil was, the plan which could most speedily be carried into effect, and the consequence was, that a school, with a small garden, was established in every parish, which was supported by particular funds. But, if they proceeded in like manner to plant schools in this country, a rate for their maintenance would be necessary. The people of Scotland, at the time the Bill was passed, had no experience of rates; but in this country they had sufficient experience of rates and of schools also. If in England the Legislature said, "Let there be a school in every parish," it would tend, he was convinced, to put an end to
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the present means of education derived from voluntary contributions, which were now paid to a very large amount. If, having paid the usual subscription, the collector called on the individual the next day, and said, "I come to collect the school-rate," he would, most probably, come to this conclusion—"I shall pay the rate, I think that is enough; but I will get rid of the voluntary subscription." At the same time, he was ready to admit, that voluntary means alone were not altogether to be trusted to provide for the purposes of general education. He had admitted the fact in that place, on a former occasion, when he was censured for abstaining from the general establishment of parish schools on the Scotch plan. He had on principle refused to adopt that course. But though, in his mind, there was a very great risk in adopting the compulsory system, still it appeared to him, that there was a much greater risk in doing nothing at all; and it was a very gross mistake to suppose, because that particular door, a general compulsory system, was not open, that therefore no door was open by which provision might be made to remove the lamentable want of education which prevailed, especially in the great towns, where it was more observable than even in the country parts. He had, however, ample reason to believe, that in the interval between 1818 and 1828, when the Test and Corporation Acts were removed, a great increase in the amount of education, and that, too, of a most beneficial description, had taken place. In 1828, when those Acts were repealed, it was found necessary to consider whether the Dissenters, who, in consequence of the restrictions imposed on them under the law, were not willing to avail themselves of many institutions for education, would do so when the Test and Corporation Acts had ceased, and they had, to a certain degree, arrived at the privileges of Churchmen. The result of those inquiries was, that though the objections of the Dissenters were lessened, they had by no means ceased. He had thought it expedient, however, to ascertain by private inquiries, whether there had been an increase or decrease of education during those ten years? He had, with that view, addressed a circular to the clergymen of between 500 and 600 parishes, taking them in various parts of the kingdom, and requesting the necessary information. He had received about 500 an-

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swers, and the result was, that the number of schools in those parishes, from which he had received replies, had been doubled; and the number of scholars more than doubled. In those 500 or 600 parishes of England and Wales, there were, at the commencement of the ten years, 1,400 schools, which had increased to 2,800; at the beginning of the period between 5,000 and 6,000 scholars were educated at those day-schools, which number had, at the expiration of the ten years, increased to 12,000. This, he conceived, was a most satisfactory Return. Those, however, who were friendly to parish schools, had thought fit to attack this statement in those periodical publications which were devoted to their opinions. They charged him with exaggeration, with having selected the parishes, and with not having stated the case fairly. They observed, that there were 13,000 parishes in England and Wales, and they argued, that while an increase of education might have taken place in the 500 parishes to which the Return referred, yet, that the course of education might have been retarded, or suspended altogether, in other places. Now, there was something so exceedingly improbable in supposing that education should go on prosperously in 500 parishes, and that in all the rest it should fall back, that the proposition really did not call for an answer. It did, however, so happen that the Return made to Lord Kerry's Motion in the House of Commons, entirely confirmed his view of the subject. That Return afforded a comparative view of the state of education in two districts in 1818, when the Education Committee was sitting, and in 1833, when Lord Kerry made his Motion. The county of Bedford and the town of Manchester were the districts chosen, and they were chosen because Bedford was an agricultural county, and Manchester was a great manufacturing town. The whole county of Bedford had, in the year 1818, 136 day-schools of all sorts; it had now 244: the number of scholars in 1818 was 3,980; it was now 5,633: being an increase, in the means of education in that county, of as five to three. It had not, indeed, doubled; but it amounted to more than five to three. So that his calculation, of which complaint had been made, was very near the mark. In 1818, the Sunday-schools in the county of Bedford were attended by 4,738 scholars; that number was now in-
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creased to 15,234: being more than three to one—indeed, considerably more than treble. It would thus appear, that education in the county of Bedford, taking Sunday-schools and day-schools, had more than increased two to one. With respect to Manchester, that great, and wealthy, and enlightened, and ingenious town, education had there increased in a much greater proportion than in the county of Bedford. In 1818 it possessed (not including Salford) only fifty day-schools, which were attended by 2,628 scholars. By the great exertions however—and they were as meritorious as they were great—of the enlightened leading inhabitants, instead of fifty day-schools, there were 216; which were attended by 10,000 and odd children. So that in Manchester the increase in the day-schools was more than four to one. Now, if other places had increased in anything like the same proportion, he thought it would be found—and he had no doubt it would—that the calculation which he had made with reference to 500 parishes was greatly underrated. That, he believed, would be the result, when the whole Return was laid before their Lordships. The Sunday-schools in Manchester had increased in the same ratio as the similar schools had done in the county of Bedford. In 1818 the number of scholars was 8,000; in 1833, no less than 24,400. This result was most satisfactory; and, when its importance was considered, did it not show that it might be very imprudent to run the risk of doing away with the system of voluntary contribution by imposing a school-rate? A rate to the amount, as had been calculated, of 1,200,000 a-year, would not effect the object of general education. It would not be enough that a large sum of money was granted. Something else would be necessary. They might plant schools—they might water the plant which they had put into the ground—they might be assisted by funds compulsorily obtained—but did it follow that the plant, or the school, would take root? What he meant by taking root, was, that individuals should nourish it, and should feel a strong desire to send their children to be educated at schools thus supported. Was there any certainty that such would be the case? And should the contrary happen, what was the use of a rate?—what was the use of paying a salary to a master, when no one attended the school? It had

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been asserted, that the people in this country did not feel the same thirst for education that was cherished in other parts of the empire. He understood that in Ireland, when schools were opened, the children of the poor people were immediately sent there. That such was the case in Scotland he knew. Now, if there was a backwardness in that respect amongst the people of England, the voluntary system offered a far greater chance of removing it than one of a compulsory kind. Those who subscribed voluntarily to a school naturally took an interest in it. They watched over it, they superintended it, and they endeavoured to induce the poor to send their children thither. But if a compulsory system were adopted, all that beneficial superintendence would cease. He did not say, that children would not be sent at all to those schools, but he believed, that they would not attend in such large numbers. With respect to aiding and assisting voluntary contributions, one course, he thought, might be advantageously taken. It was within the power of Government to adopt it; and he rejoiced to see that, to a certain extent, the plan to which he alluded had been pursued, according to the recommendation of the Education Committee in 1818, who had stated at length, the grounds on which their opinion was formed. The proposition was, to advance a sum of money to encourage those to proceed who were willing to advance the money in the formation of schools by voluntary subscription. This had been tried on a very small scale; and such advantages had been found to result from it as had induced the other House of Parliament, most wisely in his opinion, to apply a further sum of money to the same end. What he adverted to was, voting only small sums, say 20,000 l., to enable such persons as wished, by voluntary contribution, to found schools to overcome the first impediment—that of securing school-houses. Such a sum had been voted, and he would undertake to say, that never was 20,000 l. better laid out. There was no fear whatever that Parliament would ever repent of that vote. It was clear, that Parliament had not done so, since 20,000 l. more had been voted still further to carry on the plan. What was the effect of this measure? Why, that not less than from 40,000 l. to 50,000 l. had been voluntarily subscribed, in addition to the aid granted
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by Government. The consequence was, that, in one year, means of education were suddenly called into existence sufficient for the instruction of 30,000 children, which was equal to a population of 500,000 souls. This statement had reference to two of the three ridings of the great county of York. There was in the system of education proffered to the poor in this country, a deficiency which was greatly to be lamented. As it was "not all gold that glittered," so neither was it all education that outwardly looked like it. There was a serious lack of really useful education. Many children might darken the school-house door,—they might talk and buzz there all the day,—they might depart to their homes in the evening; and yet, during their attendance, so little might be taught them, that it would not be improper to say, that their time was all but lost. It was, to be sure, better that they should attend, as they were thus kept out of mischief, than be doing wrong elsewhere; and that, perhaps, was the most favourable view that could be adopted. This was an undeniable fact; and the defect was entirely owing to the great want of improvement in the general system of education, and especially in the deficiency of cheap seminaries, where those who meant to become school-masters themselves might be properly instructed. This was a point to which he anxiously hoped and trusted the attention of the Legislature would be speedily called, and that the other House of Parliament, jealous and properly watchful over the public purse as it was, would take care to provide for this great, glaring, and universally acknowledged defect; and, with that object, would add to the 20,000 l. already voted, 20,000 l. more, towards the establishment of seminaries, or normal schools, for the education of those who would afterwards be called to preside over inferior schools themselves. It was not to be supposed that education could be placed on a very secure or solid foundation, in a country containing a population of 14,000,000 or 15,000,000, when the system depended so much upon casual aid. Probably, however, the Legislature—for the attention of the country had, of late, been strongly directed to this point—would take up the subject, and place the system of education on a more solid basis. The voluntary principle should, however, always be adhered to,—nothing like compulsion should enter into the system, In

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Prussia the contrary course was pursued. Education was forced under the rigour of military punishment—under the dread of the serjeant—under the fear of the corporal. Now, he did not think, that any one measure could be devised by the mind of man, so admirably calculated to make a system of education unpopular, as that of compelling people to send their children to school. He was, therefore, decidedly adverse to the introduction of a compulsory system in any sense whatever, either by forcing parents to send their children to school under certain penalties, or depriving them of certain privileges if they refused to let them attend. A knowledge of the benefits that were to be derived from education—a knowledge of its great usefulness in every rank and condition of life—ought to be the great incitement to seek it; and every effort ought to be made to disseminate that leading principle, in order that all might profit by it. As to another species of compulsion—that of a rate—he would not consent to it; for he would never sanction any proposition which coupled the word "education," with the word "rate." The best course to pursue, instead of introducing any bill, was to try a little more experience on the subject. By instituting small seminaries, by founding normal schools for the education of schoolmasters, aided by the liberality of Parliament, he thought much might be done; and he had great hopes that this Session would not be suffered to pass without some attempt being made to take up these matters in an enlightened spirit. Such an attempt would, he was sure, be successful, and receive general approbation. He should next call their Lordships' attention to those funds which which were already applicable to the purposes of education, and to other purposes, but which had not been advantageously administered, and had, in many instances, been grossly misappropriated. The returns under Mr. Gilbert's Act, in 1805, gave the amount of those funds at 310,000 l. The returns, however, which had since been made, and which were now on their Lordships' table, showed how greatly the amount given under Mr. Gilbert's Act was underrated. It was found, notwithstanding the under-lettings,—notwithstanding the various modes in which these revenues were prevented from reaching their proper destination—that the charitable funds connected with the counties of York, Cum-
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berland, Surrey, Bedford, and a number of others, to the amount of fourteen or fifteen, whose population exceeded 7,000,000 (being half the population of England and Wales)—it was shown, that the total charitable funds of these counties, which, under Mr. Gilbert's Act, were returned at 150,000 l., did, in fact, amount to 428,000 l. This would give, for the whole country, an amount of between 800,000 l. and 900,000 l. a-year—a magnificent sum to be applied to charitable purposes! But, he was convinced, that if those bequests were justly and fairly managed, they would amount to 1,500,000 l. annually, and would be more than sufficient to supply all the expense of a national education. There was another part of this interesting subject on which he would make a few observations. He had said before, and he repeated now, that it was not every one who founded a school or an hospital who ought to be called charitable. He knew, that he had been blamed for using that language; it was, however, language that he had held in that House, that he had held elsewhere, and that he would always hold, because he knew that it was just, and did not warrant the unkind interpretations that had been put upon it. He would boldly assert, that there were no greater nuisances in this country than some of the institutions called charities. He wished he could say of them, that they were innocent—that they did no harm or good—that they were mere nonentities, neither producing benefit, nor generating evil. Unfortunately, he could say no such thing. Many of them, he affirmed, were positive nuisances—many of them were of such a description, that the law ought not to allow them; and many of them, in their origin, were of such a kind as the law did not allow. As an instance, he would point their Lordships' attention to that splendid building the Foundling Hospital, with its now large revenue, which would, by the improvements that were daily taking place in the neighbourhood, amount, in the course of time, to 150,000 l. a-year. It was not a foundling hospital, though it was so designated, nor had it been so for half a century past. Why was the alteration made? Because it was a nuisance,—because it produced the most mischievous effects: the desertion and the abandonment of children, were its immediate fruits. In consequence of that establishment,

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children had been brought into existence who otherwise would not have seen the light. Seeing that the institution offered a premium for vice, the governors had made a rule, which, for half a century, had made this institution anything but a foundling hospital. They came to a resolution, "that in future no child shall be, on any account, admitted into this hospital until its parents are examined." Now this might be, and undoubtedly was, a very safe and beneficial provision; but it altogether altered the original object of the institution, which was for foundlings properly so called, and not for those whose mothers and fathers were known. Again, the Small-pox Hospital, before the discovery of vaccination, must be considered by the law a nuisance. Indeed, the late Lord Ellenborough, speaking on this subject, said, "These splendid towers must all come to the ground, notwithstanding the intention of the testator, if it were found to propagate and perpetuate, instead of curing, repelling, and preventing disease." That establishment had since been converted into a fever hospital, and partly into an institution for vaccination. These were extreme cases; but while he alluded to them, let it not be supposed that he did not highly admire institutions which might be termed real charities. Too much praise could not be given to those persons who established charities for the cure of diseases, for the alleviation of accidents, for the watching over of insanity, for the softening down of those bodily and mental evils to which the human frame was subject, and which no human foresight could avert. It was pleasing to see such charities beneficially endowed; they were worthy of private munificence. But this could not be said of institutions which encouraged people to be extravagant, in the hope of ultimately receiving relief, or which induced improvident marriages—marriages entered into as none should be entered into—before the parties were able to provide for their offspring. Having thus expressed his opinion with respect to things miscalled charities, he had no hesitation in declaring it to be his intention, if those who were at the head of them adhered with the same crassid ignorance of what ought to be done to the course which had so long been followed—if they displayed the same dogged feeling in resistance to all improvement—if, instead of applying the funds committed to their
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charge to those purposes that would be useful and beneficial to the community, they chose to expend them on that which was prejudicial and baneful to the community—if they continued in that course, he should then be disposed to listen to the suggestions which had been made by individuals in Parliament and out of it, and to view those persons as not any longer entitled to act upon their own false principles, converting that to public mischief which ought to be devoted to public benefit. If they did not mend their ways—if they did not apply in a better manner the funds which the munificence of former times had supplied for charitable purposes, he should call on Parliament to look on those estates as placed peculiarly under their care, and to see that the trust was more beneficially and more safely executed than it had been. It was sufficient for him to give this general notice. He knew that, unless in their public capacity, the trustees could not be called to account; but it was sufficient for him to give this general notice, knowing that the parties had the means in their own hands of preventing any parliamentary interference, by shaping their conduct according to existing circumstances. That was what was done in the case of the Foundling Hospital, and the same course was adopted, to a certain degree, by the trustees of the Small-pox Hospital. They ought to prevent the interference of the Legislature by removing the cause of complaint; if not, it was the duty of Parliament no longer to abstain from that proper and necessary interference which the interests of the public required. He should now conclude by moving "for a Return of the charities in the following counties," with the list of which he would not trouble their Lordships.
The Earl of Malmesburywas strongly in favour of Sunday-schools. He entirely agreed with the noble and learned Lord in his objection to a compulsory rate. He did not, however, coincide with him in the propriety of establishing Normal-schools. They were not necessary, because those who founded charity-schools always selected proper masters.
Lord Wynfordwas sorry that a subject of so much importance as the present had been brought before the House without notice. The speech of his noble and learned friend, when it went before the public, was calculated to produce an im-

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pression which ought not to be produced, and which, moreover, would not be produced if noble Lords were prepared with the information to answer it which was in existence. He admitted, that if any of the property which had been left by the donors of charitable institutions had been misapplied so as to become a nuisance instead of a benefit to the community, the House had then a right to interfere with it; but if that property was administered conformably to the intentions of the donors, then the House had no right to interfere, and the trustees would be guilty of a breach of trust if they did not protest against such interference. His noble and learned friend, acting on a mere ex-parte statement, had charged certain trustees with a neglect of duty. He could not reconcile a charge founded on such partial premises with his notions of justice, and he was sure that the Legislature would not take the measures which his noble and learned friend had intimated his intention to recommend without an inquiry by Select Committees of both Houses, if not an inquiry at the Bar of that House. For the great mass of benefit which the country had derived from the diffusion of education, it was indebted to no other class of men save that much calumniated order, the clergy of the Church of England. Any interference with the system which was now adopted through their instrumentality would be productive of more evil than good to the community. The only fault which now attached to the schools which the clergy had established in their respective parishes was, that the children were not kept at them long enough. That, however, was the fault of the parents of the children, or rather it was the result of their poverty and not the fault of the clergy who superintended such schools. Improve, exclaimed the noble Lord, the condition of the poor, give them sufficient wages to maintain themselves and their families in comfort and respectability, and you will have no reason to complain that they do not keep their children long enough at schools. But, as things were now administered, no sooner was a child able to earn something for his parents, than he was taken from school, and his education was altogether neglected. He insisted that wherever schools had been established, there had been no difficulty in providing schoolmasters for them competent to afford all the information
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required by the children. He denied the right of Parliament to pass a law imposing a rate for the purposes of education. Such a rate was very different from the rate imposed for the maintenance of the poor. The maintenance of the poor by a compulsory fund was justified by the necessity of the case, but no such necessity existed with regard to education. On whom, too, would such a rate fall? On the landed interest, which they had recently been told was in a condition of great and long-continued depression. In conclusion he would again say, that if the trustees of any fund destined for education had abused their trust they might be corrected; but he was for not forming an opinion without information, still less could he consent to act in the dark.
The Lord Chancellorwished to say one word only in explanation. The information of which he had availed himself was obtained from the Reports of the Commissioners appointed by Act of Parliament to examine into the state of charitable institutions—Commissioners who had examined both sides, and had had a full hearing of the trustees themselves. There were cases mentioned in those Reports in which trustees had wished to employ the money committed to their charge in a more beneficial manner than that which the donor had contemplated, but had found themselves prevented by the existing state of the law from making the improvements which they desired. For instance, in the manufacturing districts of Yorkshire, at Wakefield—no, he believed it was at Leeds—a revenue of 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. a-year was now devoted to the maintenance of a grammar-school. Now, according to the construction put by the law on the term "grammar-school," it was a school in which Greek and Latin and Hebrew, one or all of them, was to be taught, but not ciphering or arithmetic; and yet there could be no doubt that in such a district the latter branch of information was more necessary than the former. Now in such a school, unless you taught Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, it was doubtful whether you had any right to apply the funds of the school to the teaching of arithmetic. Certainly, until the funds were provided for the teaching of the former, you had no right to teach the latter. The trustees had been asked in one or two such cases whether they would teach the last, and their answer had been,

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that they did not feel themselves authorized to move against the intentions of the donors, and that they, therefore, preferred to leave things as they were. With regard to the obligations which the country owed to the clergy of the Established Church, he preferred considering those obligations in the light in which they had been viewed by a noble Earl on a former night, to considering them in the light in which they had been viewed that night by his noble and learned friend. Judging from the speech of his noble and learned friend, the world might suppose, that all the benefits now derived from the more general diffusion of the benefits of education were owing to the exertions of the clergy of the Church of England. God forbid, that he should either say or do anything to diminish the debt of gratitude due to that venerable body for teaching, preaching, and successfully exerting their money and their time in promoting the planting of schools, and in advancing the education of the people. He would be the last man in the world to whisper a doubt respecting the great merits in this respect of that learned, pious, and enlightened body; still he would say, that there were other parties to whom some portion of credit was also due for having co-operated, and not without effect, in the same great and glorious cause. In consequence of the exertions made, he would not say by that much-calumniated, but by that little-eulogised Committee of the lower House, which sat in 1818 upon the subject of education, and of which he had had the honour of being Chairman—he hoped that he might be permitted to arrogate to that Committee the credit of some of the beneficial effects which by its labours, had since been produced; for he might, without exaggeration, assert that the benefits of education were diffused twice as far now as they were then. In that Committee, quorum pars minima fuerat, he had given full credit to the clergy of the Church of England for the exertions which they had made in different parts of the country. There was likewise another cause which had been productive of great benefit to the further diffusion of education. What did his noble and learned friend think of the exertions made by the sects of the country? What did he think of the invaluable labours of the enlightened and pious clergy of the different congregations of Dissenters? They had been great
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coadjutors with the Committee of 1818 in increasing the education of the people; they had spent their money, and their hard-earned money, willingly in that cause; and they ought to have the more credit for spending it, for they had less to spend. When a rich clergyman of the Church, with an income of 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. a-year, spent his 40 l. a-year in promoting education in his parish, the Dissenting clergyman, with an income of barely 100 l., was often spending his 3l. or 4l. a-year on the same object. He gave the Dissenting clergymen, under such circumstances, as much credit for spending their mite as he gave to the Church of England for spending its million. He thought that the exertions of the one ought not to be passed over in silence, whilst they were straining their throats and making the walls echo with the praises of the other. There was one little chronological fact forgotten by those who overlooked the merits of the Dissenters. They were the first in the field, they set the example. Dr. Bell and Joseph Lancaster were used as the champions on each side of this question. Dr. Bell created the schools which were now called the national schools; Mr. Lancaster the schools which were now called the British and Foreign schools. There was a controversy as to whether Dr. Bell imported or Mr. Lancaster invented, the Madras system of education, by mutual instruction and by writing in the sand; but there was no controversy, there was not even a doubt as to this point, that if Dr. Bell was the inventor of the system, it was, as far as he was concerned, a hidden invention, which had never shed a blessing on mankind, and that Joseph Lancaster was the first person who practically taught schools in England upon that plan. Joseph Lancaster imported it; and the importer of an invention was, as his noble and learned friend knew, entitled by law to be considered the inventor and to take out a patent for it. He therefore, gave his praise as a patent to the importer, but in so doing he had no wish to withhold his praise from the inventor. He spoke from having a full knowledge of these matters for he had taken an active though humble part in them. He had moved the first Resolution which embodied the School Society, and expressed the object it was to have in view. Originally that Society consisted chiefly of

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Dissenters but, among the distinguished personages who gave the Society their support the late Duke of Kent stood prominent—a name never to be mentioned without honour, where education or charity was spoken of. Then there was the name of the Duke of Sussex, not to be held in less distinction. There was the Duke of Bedford, the late Lord Somerville, a Presbyterian by-the-by, but all the rest were Baptists, Quakers, Moravians, Unitarians—all manners of sects, but scarcely one churchman. One thing that association did—it produced action on the part of the Church, and then the Church kept pace with the Dissenters. The Dissenters having begun in 1810, and having continued during the year 1811, induced the Church late in the year 1812 to come forward also and to found the national society. If gratitude were to be measured by priority, the Dissenters, who began the system, were certainly entitled to the larger share. He was not, however, prepared on that account to assert, that if the Dissenters had not founded a single school, had not taught a single boy, and had not founded any society, the Church would not have done that which everybody knew it subsequently had done. When the Dissenters had evidently succeeded, and it was morally certain, that the people would be taught, though it was uncertain how, then, to his infinite delight, he had seen the clergy of the Church step forward to take a share in this holy task. He would mention another debt of gratitude which was due to the same venerable body. The institution of infant schools was admitted to have been of great benefit to the cause of education. A few persons, of whom be was one, met together in the year 1818, and after some deliberation planted an infant school in the city of Westminster, not more than a quarter of a mile from the place in which he was then speaking. They carried it on successfully for two or three years, and of the eight persons who, during that period, had the superintendence of it, he believed that only himself and the Marquess of Lansdown were churchmen. They had no connexion whatever with the clergy of the Church. One or two Dissenting clergymen assisted, and to his great delight, the scheme met with complete success. Other schools on a similar principle were established in other parts of the country, and in three or
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four years afterwards he was gratified to find, that the clergy of the Church of England followed—no, he would not say followed, for he meant nothing disparaging to that venerable body—were not behind the rest, but came forward willingly and overtook them, and were not deterred by a consideration which might have influenced weaker minds and more groveling dispositions—he meant the fear of imitating other men, and of acting upon the example set them by the Dissenters. They gallantly neglected all such considerations, they boldly started in pursuit, they were stimulated by the ambition of making themselves useful, and they propagated infant schools with as much success as the Dissenters had propagated them previously. There was also another mode in which the clergy of the Establishment had greatly benefited the progress of education. In the year 1827 some of his friends and himself had formed the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge. That Society, beside other useful results which it had accomplished, had brought down the price of books one-third, to the delight of every class in the community, save one, and that one was the class professionally engaged in the sale of books. It was said, that the Society was a monopolist of books, and that it was impossible for individuals to compete with it. Now, if it were a monopoly, there was this difference between it and other monopolies. The objection to other monopolies was, that they tended to raise the price of the articles which they monopolized—the objection to this monopoly was that it had lowered that price. When that Society was originally formed, he had said in private, that if it succeeded, their excellent friends, the clergy of the Church, would immediately afterwards act upon the same plan, and so it turned out even as he had predicted, for they had scarcely published the Penny Magazine one week, when the Saturday Magazine was brought forward as its rival. God forbid that he should say one word of disparagement of the Church on that account. No; he was too much delighted with the co-operation of the Establishment to breathe the slightest whisper against it; but the fact was, that the date and the chronology were not in favour of the clergymen of the Establishment, and they proved beyond all dispute that the Church acted after the Dissenters in point

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of time, though they did in substance exactly the same as the Dissenters. They nobly came forward in establishing schools, in planting infant schools, and in spreading cheap literature, but he repeated that, in point of time, they came forward after the Dissenters had begun, continued and succeeded, in all those three different objects. If the clergy of the Church were not entitled to a monopoly of the gratitude of the country, they were at least entitled to a great share of it, for those good objects would not have been obtained to more than half the present extent, if the Dissenters had not had the honour and benefit of the assistance of the clergy of the Church.
Lord Wynfordcontended that before the Dissenters had performed any of these splendid services, respecting which his noble and learned friend had vaunted so largely, the clergy of the Church of England had sedulously promoted the cause of education in their respective parishes by promoting the formation of parish schools. Before any of these Dissenting associations were in existence, there had existed in the Church the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel.