Sitting of 15 April 1834

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. WALTER, Colonel POWELL, and Mr. OSWALD, from several Places,—in favour of the Lord's Day Observance Bill.—By Mr. DOBBIN, from Armagh, for the Repeal of the Union, and the Abolition of Tithes.—By Mr. OSWALD, from New Cumnock, for Amending the Laws relating to Road Assessments; from New Milns, for the Repeal of the Corn Laws; from the Hand-Loom Weavers of several Places, for a Board of Trade, and for Relief; and from Ayr, and other Places,—for a Better System of Church Patronage in Scotland,—By Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, from Sunder-

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land, against the Reciprocity of Duties Act.—By the same, and by Colonel POWELL, l from several Dissenting Congregations,—for Relief to the Dissenters—By Mr. B. HANDLEY and Alderman THOMPSON, from the Merchant Seamen of Boston and Sunderland,—to be Exempted from the Payment of Sixpence to Greenwich Hospital.

THE CANADAS.
Mr. Roebuckspoke to the following effect:—I rise, Sir, to move that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the political condition of the Canadas, and my excuse (if excuse be needed) for pressing forward the Motion at the present time, is the extreme emergency of the matter; the critical and extraordinary position of the colonies to which the Motion relates. And in order to induce the House to accede to my request for this Committee of Inquiry, it will be my business, in the observations with which I shall accompany it, to prove the following, among other things:—first, That the provinces are at this moment in a state nearly approaching to open revolt; that Lower Canada particularly' as far as words can go, is actually in a state of revolution; the House of Assembly (their House of Commons) having formally seceded from all communication with the Executive, and also having expressly declared their intention to impeach the present governor, Lord Aylmer.—Secondly, I shall endeavour, also, to show, that this present disturbed state of these countries is the result of a long series of continuous bad government, and that the actual outbreaking of the people at the present moment springs immediately from the extremely rash and petulant behaviour of the present Secretary of the Colonies—who, unfortunately for this country, after having successfully fanned Ireland into a flame, has employed the same qualities to the same end in our Transatlantic possessions.—Thirdly, My last object, after having pointed out the evil, will be to suggest the remedy, and to this end I shall endeavour to explain why I desire a Committee of Inquiry. Before I enter upon this arduous undertaking, the House will, perhaps, permit me to allude very briefly (and I assure them that I do so with great reluctance) to the position in which I personally stand as regarding the present question. It may naturally be asked, why I should particularly interest myself in this matter, and whether I can bring to the discussion any peculiar information. I will answer both questions at once. The knowledge that I have upon this matter is greatly the result of personal experience. Many years spent in habits of great intimacy with the
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people of those countries, have made me intimately acquainted with their history, their feelings, their character, and their desires. The things that I shall describe I have seen, and I now come forward as a witness in this case, and humbly, yet firmly, claim for my testimony that respect which the House is accustomed to pay to the evidence of all percipient witnesses. The same intercourse which has enabled me to speak of this people's affairs as one personally cognizant of them, has made me also feel a deep interest in their welfare. This may, perhaps, be sufficient to account for and excuse my thus prominently standing forward in their defence. I shall soon show, however, that, as a Representative of the English people, the importance of this subject ought to claim my attention, even had I not those personal considerations to which I have alluded. Although in what I shall immediately advance I shall speak as of my own knowledge, and on my own experience, I shall not fail, nevertheless, to corroborate my own testimony by that of others; and I do hope that the evidence I shall adduce, and the documents on which I shall rest my assertions, will gain for my observations the kind and attentive consideration of the House. Without further preface I shall proceed to discuss the matter in hand. I must observe, however, before I enter upon the descriptions with which I shall be obliged to trouble the House, that my remarks will, for the most part, apply to both provinces, though my illustrations, for the purpose of avoiding confusion, will be drawn chiefly, if not exclusively, from one,—namely, Lower Canada. In order to make any one competent to decide upon the resolution now before the House, it is necessary to give some description, however brief, of the Government to which it relates. Every one tolerably acquainted with the history of our colonies knows, that the constitution or form of government now enjoyed by the Canadas was conferred on them by 31 George 3rd, c. 31. The province of Quebec was by that Act divided into the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada; and, in imitation of the form existing in England, a triple power was created in each province, consisting—first, of the governor, who was supposed to be analogous to the King here; second, the Legislative Council, supposed to be analogous to the House of Lords; and, third, the House of Assembly, analogous to our own House of Commons. It is necessary that I should say a few words upon each

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of these three estates. The governor, be it remembered, is a person sent from England—is removable by the will of the King—and, while in Canada he is a portion of sovereignty, he is but the immediate servant of the Government here. He then, it is clear, bears little or no analogy to the King of England. He is an officer chosen by the Executive, and responsible to the people of England. Next comes the Legislative Council. These Councillors are appointed by the King, and for life. There is no landed aristocracy in Canada; and certainly the Legislative Council, even if we were to concede that such an aristocracy existed, cannot be said to represent it. They are usually old official persons appointed to the office of Councillor, as a reward for service, or for certain other purposes to which I shall immediately advert. Lastly, the House of Assembly does really represent the people, at least in Lower Canada. There may be some doubts as to the completeness and purity of the representation in the Upper Province. Such, then, is the Legislative Body. The Administrative or Executive consists—first, of the Governor; and second, a Council, called the Executive Council. Now, one of the grand causes of all the bad government that has so long tormented these provinces is the composition of this Council, and that of the Legislative Council. These bodies hitherto have been two in name, but one in fact; the persons composing the one being the majority in the other; so that the persons composing the Executive Council could at any time put a stop to all the proceedings of Government, and forward to the utmost the sinister interests which they and their dependents wish to forward, If the House feel at all desirous of understanding the political condition of these provinces, it is absolutely necessary for them to obtain a very definite conception of the character of this Executive Council, and their dependents and connections. As the Governors sent from England go to the colonies only for a short period, and also exceedingly ignorant of everything connected with the business they are about to undertake, it is necessary that there should be always some persons existing, ready and able to instruct their ignorance: these persons are the Executive Council. They live always in the colony, and form the necessary link between succeeding governors. To persons thus serviceable rewards are necessarily given, which rewards consist of various places, money, or money's-worth,
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paid out of the provincial funds. Besides, these people form a special society, and surround and hem in the governor, so that no one not of their tribe or party can reach him. They actually govern the country—dispose of all its places of profit and distinction, and not only rule, but insult the people. Being thus really independent of all control, their insolence, rapacity, and corruption, know no bounds; and if, at any time, the Governor, or even the Home Government does aught to offend their high mightinesses, they rebel, and treat with scorn and contumely the commands sent from England. While such is the nature and conduct of this petty and vulgar oligarchy, I beseech the House to consider the peculiar position of the people over whom they domineer. This people are in habits of daily—nay, hourly—intercourse with the Republicans of the United States of America. They are accustomed to behold across the frontier a great people—not more instructed, not more desirous of good government than themselves, self-governed—governed by thoroughly democratic institutions; and what is the result? A state of unexampled prosperity—quiet, rapid, and unceasing improvement. Laws and institutions that continue in their action as regular as a piece of physical machinery. They see cheap Government, and yet perfect protection—they see the governing body having interests identical with the people, and possessed of their ever-advancing spirit of improvement, aiding all enterprise,—in fact, performing the true functions of a Government,—not contented with protecting to its uttermost, property, person, and reputation to all its citizens, but assisting in all those great undertakings which are best forwarded by the combined efforts of a whole people. With such a sight before them, it is not wonderful that the Canadian people have imbibed the free spirit of America, and that they bear with impatience the insolence, the ignorance, the incapacity, and the vice of a nest of wretched officials, who, under the fostering domination of England, have constituted themselves an aristocracy, with all the vices of such a body, without one of the redeeming qualities which are supposed to lessen the mischiefs which are the natural attendants of all aristocracies. It is of a people thus high-spirited, pestered and stung to madness by this pestilent brood, that I am now about to speak. Some years after the Constitution had been conferred upon them, and also after repeated solicitation, the two

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provinces were permitted to provide for their own expenses, and consequently to rule the expenditure of the Government. Those who had refused the request of the people to be allowed to provide for their own expenditure, well knew, that the control of the people would be a very different thing from that of the Government of England. The one was near, deeply interested in saving every farthing; the other was distant, and, amid the many millions of their expenditure, were not likely to be very solicitous respecting the small sums comprising the outlay of Canada. Therefore, when the people did at length obtain the control they so long had desired, a war began between the official persons on the one side, and the people by their representatives on the other,—the one party desirous of having the supervision of the people reduced to nothing; the other determined to maintain and exercise that supervision to the utmost. It is curious to see what various forms during the last twenty years the desire of the official tribe to be freed from supervision has taken, and in how many various ways they have attempted to compass their end, and in all of these, be it remembered, they have been regularly supported by the Government at home. The House of Assembly, acting on behalf of the people, have been driven to various devices to maintain their very necessary, and legitimate control. Having the administrative body utterly opposed to them, and knowing that that administrative body could govern the determinations of one body of the Legislature—namely, the Legislative Council, and also the Governor in his legislative capacity, it behoved them to be extremely wary and stedfast in all their proceedings. One great point was, to ensure their being regularly convoked, and permitted, when called together, to interfere with the affairs of Government. How was this to be accomplished? In England, the House of Commons is necessarily convoked yearly, to vote certain expenses, and to pass certain annual enactments. The Executive has no funds at its disposal, and is utterly dependent on Parliament. It has been very properly the aim of the House of Assembly to approximate its own condition, and that of the Executive of Canada, to this wholesome state. To this end, as they have no Mutiny Bill to pass annually, and as their chief expenses are comprised in their Civil List, they have very wisely determined to pass the Estimates of the Civil List yearly. It is quite astonishing
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to learn what an outcry this determination raised amid the official tribe. Disloyalty, disrespect to his Majesty, and every evil quality that could possibly be found for the occasion, were attributed to the House of Assembly. And what in reality did it all mean? Simply this. The official tribe saw, that by this means an annual supervision was ensured, and they were sorely vexed thereat. What ought to have been the conduct of the Home Government on this matter? They ought, at once, to have acceded to the desires of the people, to have taken the Civil List yearly, and have aided the people to the utmost in maintaining that necessary supervision which they so ardently desired. Did the Government do this? No such thing. They waged war with the people by three successive Governors on this matter. The Duke of Richmond, Sir Peregrine Maitland, Lord Dalhousie—all fought this mean battle for the official tribe of hirelings who thus made a cat's paw of his Majesty's Government; and at this moment the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies is willing and endeavouring, to continue this mischievous and degrading warfare. To this there was added another source of contention. The people's representatives, still desirous of complete control over the expenditure, determined to vote their money by items—so much to this functionary, so much to that; a very wise precaution, and one almost universally adopted by the English House of Commons. As usual, the tribe of employés set up a howl. This was destructive of the prerogative—making the King (always the King, about whom they care in reality as much as they do for the Emperor of China) a cipher. This was dreadful, unbearable, republican, and cheap. The Governors joined with the officials, and the Government at home joined with the Governors. The whole business of the State was completely stopped, and confusion, and every description of ill-feeling between the people and the provincial Government necessarily followed. And who, I beg to ask, was in the wrong? Can we hesitate a moment in declaring the conduct of the Assembly in the highest degree wise and circumspect, while that of the provisional Government was corrupt and vicious—that of the Home Government the very acée of folly. As a specimen of the mode in which the Governors sent from England have sought, under the direction of the Executive Council, to foster good-will towards this country and its

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dominions, I will state one or two instances of their dealing with the representatives of the people. The House will be able to appreciate from these the manner in which the present heated condition of the popular mind in these provinces has been brought about. During the administration of Sir James Craig, certain members of the Assembly offended the Governor by things said in the House, in their character of representatives. The Governor dealt in a summary fashion with these disagreeable legislators. He arrested five of them, and put them into the common gaol at Quebec; and one, who was afterwards a Judge, he confined a whole year. They were eventually turned out of prison, unable to learn what was their offence, or to obtain a trial. What, I ask, must have been the condition of the administration of justice—what the independence and uprightness of the Judges, in a country wherein such things were permitted? This was one class of acts. I will now mention another. For many years the Representatives of the people had endeavoured to obtain from the Executive an account of the monies in the possession of the Receiver-General of the province. Now, I ask this House—I ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite—whether this demand ought not to have been immediately complied with? Whether the conduct of the Executive, in refusing such accounts, in evading the demands of the Assembly, were not in the highest degree censurable, and evincing a corrupt and vicious system of administration? This demand, wise, necessary, and important, as it was, was steadily refused by the Executive; and by none more steadily than that immaculate person Lord Dalhousie. What was the result? The Assembly, after repeated refusals, evasions, and deception on the part of the Executive, determined to lay on no more taxes, and thus drive the Governor to draw upon the Receiver-General. The result but too truly verified their worst anticipations. The Governor thus compelled, and no longer able to shelter the Receiver-General, Sir John Caldwell, did draw upon him; and then it was discovered that this servant of the Crown had disposed of 100,000 l. of the people's money, and was a bankrupt. Was this bankrupt brought to account? Was he punished? No such thing. He still possesses the property acquired by the money of the people; and is, moreover, a Legislative Councillor, and has lately been active in abusing that very nation
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whom he had before so unmercifully robbed. During the whole administration of Lord Dalhousie the war between the Executive and the Representatives of the people was carried on with bitter animosity, and every device, legal and illegal, was attempted to, obtain a revenue independent of the control of the House of Assembly. It happens, that many sources of revenue exist which are supposed not to be within the dominion of the House, although the people of Canada do, in reality, furnish that revenue. For example, certain dues are levied at the port of Quebec under Acts of the Imperial Legislature; these are entirely withdrawn from the supervision of the House. Again, the estates of the Jesuits have become the property of the Crown; these also are withdrawn from the supervision of the House; and lately an attempt has been made to acquire a revenue by the sale of waste lands; and all this to the end of escaping from the control of the people's Representatives. Can we wonder that the people are irritated by this mode of proceeding? Can we wonder that they are exceedingly jealous of all attempts of this description? What would this House say, if it should perceive the Privy Council and the Crown endeavouring to find ways of taxing the people without their consent or control? I ask the House, and I appeal to the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies, whether we should not be justified in resisting every such attempt, and in punishing all advised it? I have already observed, that the war between the two parties has manifested itself in various shapes; all these, however, it is impossible for me now to describe. All that I am now desirous of effecting is, to create a complete and vivid conception of the sort of feeling existing among the colonists. I want to make this House understand that this war of many years has embittered the whole public mind—that it has broadly divided the country into two hostile, nay deadly hostile, sections—that on the one side a small band of persons in office, using and abusing the name of England, have fought the fight of corruption; while, on the other, the whole people, by their Representatives, have steadfastly insisted on the right to control all expense, and, in fact, to govern the country. I wish, I say, to make the House to understand, that for years this unhappy country has been in a state of trouble and combustion, created and continued by this small band of

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official persons, who, unfortunately, by means of the Legislative Council, and by the assistance of the home Government, have been able to keep in check the great body of the nation, with their Representatives at their head. Chance unfortunately threw in the way of the unprincipled tribe of official persons another means of dividing the people, and, thereby, of strengthening their own pernicious power. In Lower Canada, the immense majority of the people are of French extraction; they speak the French language, and are of the Catholic persuasion. Incessant have been the efforts of the party which I have so often characterised, to make this difference of language and religion the means of discord and hatred among the people. In order to strengthen their own hands, they have endeavoured to create an English, as opposed to the French party, and, in private, as well as public life—in the Legislature—aye, and even in the Courts of Justice, they have endeavoured to introduce this cause of jarring discord—of vulgar, and, therefore, bitter animosity! Now, in the discharge of a great duty, with a deep feeling of the responsibility under which I am acting, do I solemnly charge the Executive for the last twenty years with disgracefully and most corruptly endeavouring to create and perpetuate national and religious hatred among a large body of his Majesty's subjects, and, for their private and paltry purposes, of stirring up and maintaining amongst those who ought to be brethren, something nearly approximating to the direful calamities of a civil war. I shall be glad to learn the mode in which any one will defend, or even extenuate this disgraceful proceeding. Such, Sir, then, is the state, which, indeed, I have been able but very imperfectly to describe, of the popular mind in Canada, when the right hon. Gentleman opposite became Secretary for the Colonies. It did so happen, however, that the Earl of Ripon, during the last five months of his Administration as Colonial Secretary, had begun to be sensible of the real condition of the colony, and had begun partially to act in a way to conciliate the people. Hopes were thus raised among the Canadian people, that the evils under which they had so long suffered were about to be removed; and, although they had much fault to find with every branch of their Executive, from the highest to the lowest, they began to believe that, at length, the Government in England was really
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beginning to understand their condition, and to be possessed of a wish to relieve it. It was upon a people thus excited by long-continued oppression, and lately-created hope, that the right hon. Gentleman was about to exercise his control and guidance. Now, before I begin to describe what he has done, let me ask, what course any man really cognizant of the condition of the people, and possessing the calm temper and sound knowledge which should distinguish a statesman, would have pursued in so peculiarly critical and delicate a position? I think, Sir, above all things, having become thoroughly possessed of the true condition of the people; having learned their ways of feeling, their hopes, their wishes; and, having found how excited, and naturally excitable they were,—I say, above all things, he would have abstained from all language that was likely to irritate or disgust them. Knowing, that a people imbued with democratic feelings are not to be driven but led to an object, he would in all cases have endeavoured to make "persuasion do the work of fear." Knowing, that this people are in habits of daily intercourse with the United States, and naturally led to compare their own condition with that of their happy neighbours, he would, if desirous of maintaining the supremacy of England, have done nothing which should have led that people to envy the position of the Americans, either as regards the more material matters of Government, or even the deportment of their Governors. Whatever might be the bearing of rulers in Europe, he would have been fully sensible, that in America there must be no petulance, no passion, no threats, no blustering. He would, therefore, have afforded in his own person an example of calm decorum and benevolent consideration respecting the wishes and the feelings of the people. I fear, Sir, the conduct of the right hon. Secretary bears little resemblance to that which I have here been describing. He has assumed a dictatorial tone and manner; he has arrogated to himself the situation of a master; and has dealt with a jealous and high-spirited people as if they were willing to wait upon his nod, and bow down in abject submission before his supreme decrees. He has insulted the people's Representatives—he has threatened them with coercion—he has thrust upon them his determination of maintaining monarchical dominion—and has insisted so firmly upon maintaining the

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King's prerogatives untouched, that he has seriously endangered them all, and has really rendered it doubtful whether the power of England can be maintained even a few years longer. I may be asked, Sir, for a proof of these assertions; the proof is at hand,—the opinion of the people themselves speaking through their Representatives. Let no one say, that the opinion expressed by the House of Assembly is not sufficient upon this point. It was the business of the right hon. Gentleman so to have conducted himself as to win the favourable regards of the people over whom he governed. The fact, that so far from gaining their good regards, he has raised them in formal and openly declared hostility to himself, and the Executive under him, is damning proof of his insufficiency for the task he has undertaken. This House is doubtless by this time aware that the House of Assembly in Lower Canada has formally seceded from all communication with the Executive; that they have passed a vote of determination to impeach Lord Aylmer, the Governor-General, acting under the command of the right hon. Secretary; and that they have expunged from their journals the despatches of the right hon. Secretary, as being of a nature so insulting and derogatory to their own dignity and honour, as to be unfit to remain upon their records. They came to these Resolutions: 'That, in the midst of these disorders and sufferings, this House, and the people whom it represents, had always cherished the hope, and expressed their faith, that his Majesty's Government in England did not knowingly and wilfully participate in the political immorality of its colonial agents and officers; and that it is with astonishment and grief that they have seen in the extract from the despatches of the Colonial Secretary, communicated to this House by the Governor-in-Chief, during the present Session, that one at least of the Members of his Majesty's Government entertains towards them feelings of prejudice and animosity, and inclines to favour plans of oppression and revenge, ill-adapted to change a system of abuses, the continuance of which would altogether discourage the people, extinguish in them the legitimate hope of happiness which, as British subjects, they entertained, and would leave them only the hard alternative of submitting to an ignominious bondage, or of seeing those ties endangered which united them to the mothercountry.' Such is the language held by
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this body of representatives—and such I take to be sufficient proof, even of itself of the extreme rashness and inconsiderateness of the right hon. Secretary. But it may be asked, what were the circumstances which have led to this deplorable result? I will briefly state them; and begging the House to bear in mind the excited state of the people, and their peculiar political and geographical position, I have little doubt but that it will be immediately seen, that the course pursued was eminently qualified to lead to such a disastrous conclusion. Before I mention the circumstances which, under the direction of the right hon. Secretary, have produced these results, I must allude to a circumstance which occurred the year before last; and which, though in no way attributable to the right hon. Gentleman's government, still serves to exasperate the people, and to sharpen all their jealousies. During an election for the city of Montreal, a riot took place, and three unoffending Canadians, persons totally unconnected with any of the election proceedings, were shot by the military. Now, such a circumstance might produce little sensation in Ireland; but in any of the quiet and well-regulated communities of America it was calculated to excite feelings of the deepest sorrow and alarm. The people, generally, are very nearly connected by relationship; they are all of a happy and comfortable condition; they are grave, sedate, and live a peculiarly quiet and well-regulated life. Such an event, therefore, caused regret, and spread consternation through every part of the province. It is not now my intention to express any opinion as to the case in question; that is, whether the officers and soldiers were or were not guilty of murder; but I am exceedingly desirous of calling the attention of the House to the events which succeeded this calamitous occurrence, and entreating them to observe how well calculated they were to disgust and excite the people. Certain of the officers commanding were deemed culprits by the great body of the people; and it was necessary to have them brought to trial. In that country the Attorney-General, and Solicitor-General act as public prosecutors, and have or claim an exclusive privilege of prosecuting all offences committed against the Crown. But in this case it was notorious, that the law officers were sent from Quebec to shield the officers, to use their legal skill in extricating them from the difficulty in which they were placed. Those persons

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who deemed the officers guilty, sought to have an advocate to aid the prosecution, besides the law officers, thus believed to be partial; this was refused; and it is now said by this disappointed people (with how much justice it is not for me now to say), that the military officers were, by the favour of the law officers, saved even from trial. The Grand Jury (which it is asserted was packed) ignored the bills; and then the Governor, in direct opposition to the feelings of the people, issued a general order, praising the officers and the soldiers who had thus killed the unoffending passengers. The public mind was wrought into a flame by this proceeding; and the House of Assembly spent much time last Session in prosecuting a very minute investigation of the matter, and the publication of the evidence laid before them did not a little tend to heighten the exasperation of the people, and to sharpen their jealous feelings against the Executive and the Judiciary. While the public were thus in a state of fermentation from these various causes, the right hon. Secretary came into office. The first matter in which he has given such bitter offence to the people of the province, is that relating to the Address of the House of Assembly, respecting the Legislative Council. Every person who has reflected on the composition of this Council must at once admit, that it is in the highest degree mischievous and absurd in its present constitution. For this there might be cited many authorities, and among these the opinion of a Committee of this House, appointed to inquire into the state of the province. There is also another authority, who uses these words respecting the Legislative Council. 'How ill that Council had discharged that office, they might judge from the papers before them. The members of that Council, upon every occasion, had enrolled themselves on the side of the Government, and against the people; they stood as an important screen between the Government and the people; they neither repelled the people on the one side, nor impelled the executive on the other; but while they enabled the one to maintain the war against the other, they were the means of keeping up a continual system of jarring and contention between the Government and the people. This Council was the root of all the evils which had taken place in the administration there during the last ten or fifteen years.'*
* Hansard (new series) xix. p. 337.
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These words, perhaps, the House may know were spoken by the right hon. Secretary in 1828, while he was on this side of the House. But I will not press this opinion. I certainly do not attach much weight to it; and I dare say the right hon. Secretary has seen reason on this occasion, as on many others, to repent the rash and careless expressions he has used. He must bear in mind, however, that the world out of doors are not always in a position so well to appreciate the worth of his opinions. The people, unfortunately may suppose expressions to be the result of deep consideration, and to proceed from a desire to promote the great interests of the people, which are, in fact, but hasty talk; and for the purpose of disturbing an existing Ministry. The people, dazzled by his position, and his name, would fancy, that then his opinions were of worth, as resulting from a deep conviction of the mischievous effects of the institution in question, while he, himself, would hold them at nought, deeming them either the rash expression of an inconsiderate youth, or the common places of a ready partisan. With the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, I am content to dismiss this his opinion, as not worthy regard. But, nevertheless, he must not be surprised, if the world then misled, should now charge him with tergiversation—with advocating one set of opinions when out of place, and another when admitted to office. It did so happen, however, that the persons best able to form a correct judgment coincided in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman. They also saw, that the Legislative Council was the bad and mischievous part of the Constitution; and seeing this, and actually feeling its evil effects, the House of Assembly sought to effect some change in the composition of this mischievous body; and in so doing, be it remembered, they but followed the suggestions of the Committee appointed by this House in 1828. But now, Sir, it may be objected by the right hon. Secretary, that there was no need to seek for any alteration in that body, as the Government had already, in compliance with the opinion of the Committee, essentially altered the composition of the Legislative Council, by promoting to it various persons resident in the colony. I, however, will anticipate this objection, by asserting that this change was one in name merely, and not for the better. The evils complained of in the composition of the Legislative Council were, that, as now

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constituted, that body had interests diametrically opposed to the interests of the people—that neither by birth, by predilections, nor by property were they connected with the people of the country, and the object of the House of Assembly was to make them so. The Government, it is true, had promoted certain persons to the Legislative Council; but the determinations of that body they well knew, would be precisely the same as before. But what they knew the people also knew—and knowing were disgusted; they saw that a trick was played upon them. These people are a practical and sagacious—they are a downright and plain straightforward people—not to be duped by such a vulgar artifice. I will trouble the House with the opinion of the House of Assembly as to the supposed ameliorations of the Legislative Council. [The hon. Member read certain Resolutions of the House of Assembly in which they condemned in very strong terms the Legislative Council, as composed at present.] In accordance with the opinions expressed in this last Resolution, the House of Assembly proposed to the right hon. Secretary, through the Governor, that in order to learn what really were the wishes of the people, a body of persons should be called together, after having been elected by the people, in order simply to determine this single matter—namely, what alteration they desired in the Legislative Council. This plan was proposed—first, to learn distinctly the opinions of the people—it having been asserted by a certain party in the country, that the body of the people desired no change; second, to ensure a quiet and deliberate consideration of a very grave matter. For, as the Representatives in this case would be charged with one matter alone, and acting under a very serious responsibility, it was believed, that they would be the more likely to give it a singular and complete attention. Now, this body thus proposed to be called together by one person or other was unfortunately termed a Convention. The right hon. Secretary immediately called it a National Convention, and straightway there danced before his imagination the recollection of the French Revolution and the disastrous year of 93—and Gensonné, Gaudet, and Louort, Robespierre, Danton, and the revolutionary leaders and deeds of that day all rushed upon his mind, and, in an agony of terror and indignation, he penned the following pithy despatch to Lord Aylmer respecting the
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proposal of the House of Assembly.
I have also laid before the King the addresses of the House of Assembly. I cannot pass over this document without observation. The object of this address is to pray his Majesty to sanction a national convention of the people of Canada, for the purpose of superseding the legislative authorities, and taking into their consideration in which of two modes the constitution of Lower Canada shall be altogether destroyed; whether by the introduction of the elective principle, or by the entire abolition of the Legislative Council. On the mode proposed, his Majesty is willing to put no harsher construction than that of extreme inconsiderateness; to the object sought to be obtained his Majesty can never be advised to assent, as deeming it inconsistent with the very existence of monarchical institutions. To every measure which may secure the independence, and raise the character of the Legislative. Council, his Majesty will be most ready to assent. In 1828, a Committee of the House of Commons carefully investigated the grievances alleged by the inhabitants of the Canadas, and amongst them the constitution of the Legislative Council was a matter of serious deliberation. The Committee reported that one of the most important subjects to which their inquiries had been directed, was the state of the Legislative Council in both the Canadas, and the manner in which those Assemblies had answered the purposes for which they were instituted The Committee strongly recommended that a more independent character should be given to those bodies; that the majority of their members should not consist of persons holding offices at the pleasure of the Crown; and that any other measures that might tend to connect more intimately that branch of the Constitution with the interests of the colonies, would be attended with the greatest advantage.
With respect to the Judges, with the exception only of the Chief Justice, whose presence on particular occasions might be necessary, the Committee entertained no doubt, that they had better not be involved in the political business of the House. An examination of the constitution of the body at that period and the present, will sufficiently shew in what spirit his Majesty's Government have laboured to accomplish the wishes of Parliament. The House of Assembly state correctly, that it has often been avowed, that the people of Canada could see nothing in the institutions of neighbouring countries to which they should look with envy. I have yet to learn that his Majesty's subjects in Canada entertain such sentiments at present, or that they desire to copy in a monarchical government all the institutions of a republic, or to have the mockery of an executive, absolutely dependent for its existence upon a popular body usurping the whole authority

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of the State. I am not prepared to advise his Majesty to recommend to Parliament so serious a step as the repeal of the Act of 1791, whereby the institutions of this country were conferred separately upon the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. Serious as are the difficulties by which your Lordship's administration is beset, they are yet not such as to induce me to despair of the practical working of the British Constitution; but should events unhappily force upon Parliament the exercise of its supreme authority to compose the internal dissensions of the colonies, it would be my object and my duty, as a servant of the Crown, to submit to Parliament such modifications of the charter of the Canadas as should tend, not to the introduction of institutions inconsistent with monarchical government, but to maintaining and strengthening the connexion with the mother-country, by a close adherence to the spirit of the British Constitution, and by preserving, in their proper place, and within their due limits, the mutual rights and privileges of all classes of his Majesty's subjects.
I would now beg the House to weigh this matter rather more carefully than the right hon. Gentleman has done, and endeavour to learn how Monarchy and Monarchical Institutions are to be destroyed by the simple, and I think, extremely proper method suggested by the House of Assembly. It appears that the House of Commons, itself supposed to be a democratic body, proposes that alterations should be made in a particular portion of the provincial Government—what alterations it did not, however, specify. Well, then, in order to learn what those alterations should be, the House of Assembly proposes that a body of persons should be elected by those most interested in the matter, and by those certainly best able to judge of the wants and wishes of the people; viz. the people themselves, in order to suggest the requisite changes. What is there in this subversive of Monarchy? It was not sought to make this body a Sovereign Legislative Assembly—it was not intended to supersede the King, Lords, and Commons; but it was intended to give the Imperial Legislature the best means of learning the wishes of the people and their actual wants in the matter of Government. This, I again assert, was a wise and considerate proceeding, and in no way deserving the rebuke and reproaches which the right hon. Secretary too rashly hazarded. But let us suppose for a moment that this plan was not a wise one. What shall we think of the tone and manner of the despatch which condemned it? Had the
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right hon. Secretary considered for a moment he must have been aware that the people of Canada were not copying revolutionary France, but quiet and well-governe America. He would have remembered, that every day almost in the United States bodies are thus chosen to determine particular questions, and the people of Canada sought only to follow a plan which, on the opposite frontiers, they saw pursued by the most sagacious and best governed people on the earth. Would he not (if acting wisely and calmly), even if he differed from the House of Assembly, have expressed in very temperate language his dissent—have stated quietly his reasons for dissent—have pointed out some other, and what to him appeared a wiser plan? But he did none of these things. He at once, and without disguise, accuses a whole body of representatives, who had been acting in the solemn discharge of a sacred duty, with desiring to overthrow the Constitution of their country. He accuses them of wishing to introduce republican measures, as if by that epithet he at once condemned the plan proposed, and then, without further ado, he violently threatens them with a second edition of Ms Irish Coercion Bill. It is idle to mince the matter. We know very well what that round-about phrase was intended to signify. It meant threats—threats of changing their form of government—threats of taking away power from the popular branch of the Legislature;—and why was all this angry language used? Simply because the House of Assembly had proposed a mode of learning the people's wishes and wants which was distasteful to the right hon. Secretary. Now, Sir, what was the answer of the House of Assembly to this rash and inconsiderate menace. Just what any one acquainted with the people would have expected—just what any high-spirited body would have given; and, for my part, had they given any other, they would have had my contempt, and not, as now, my sympathy. It was this:
That this House, and the people whom it represents, do not wish or intend to convey any threat; but that, relying as they do on the principles of law and justice, they are and ought to be politically strong enough not to be exposed to receive insult from any man whomsoever, or bound to suffer it in silence; that the style of the said extracts from the despatches of the Colonial Secretary, as communicated to this House, is insulting and

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inconsiderate to such a degree, that no legally-constituted body, although its functions were infinitely subordinate to those of Legislation, could or ought to tolerate them: that no similar example can be found even in the despatches of those of his predecessors in office, least favourable to the rights of the colonies: that the tenor of the said despatches is incompatible with the rights and privileges of this House, which ought not to be called in question or defined by the Colonial Secretary, but which, as occasion may require, will be successfully promulgated and enforced by this House.
That with regard to the following expressions in one of the said despatches, "should events unhappily force upon Parliament the exercise or his supreme authority to compose the internal dissension of the Colonies, it would be my object and my duty, as a servant of the Crown, to submit to Parliament, such modifications of the charter of the Canadas as should, tend, not to the introduction of institutions inconsistent with Monarchical Government, but to maintaining and strengthening the connexion with the mother-country by a close adherence to the spirit of the British Constitution, and by preserving in their proper place, and within their due limits, the mutual rights and privileges of all classes of his Majesty's subjects;" if they are to be understood as containing a threat to introduce into the constitution and other modifications than such as are asked for by the majority of the people of this province, whose sentiments cannot be legitimately expressed by any other authority than its representatives, this House would esteem itself wanting in candour to the people of England, if it hesitated to call their attention to the fact, that in less than twenty years the population of the United States of America will be as much greater than that of Great Britain, as that of British America will be greater than that of the former English colonies, when the latter deemed that the time was come to decide that the inappreciable advantage of governing themselves, instead of being governed, ought to engage them to repudiate a system of colonial government, which was, generally speaking, much better than that of British America now is.
But, says the right hon. Secretary, they had a republican intent in view; they desired to destroy the Monarchical character of the Constitution, by proposing to make the Legislative Council elective by the people. To make it, in fact, similar to those Republican Senates which are to be found in the Constitution of the United States. Let us learn what is the worth of all this outcry. I would observe, however, for myself, by way of preliminary remark, that I do not advocate an elective Council—a double Chamber appears to me a
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clumsy contrivance—a mode of increasing the defects always attendant on legislative bodies, by multiplying the number of the persons composing them. The Council, in my eyes, is a nuisance; and my way of getting rid of a nuisance, is simply to abate it—in other words, to clear it away entirely. I would utterly abolish the Legislative Council, and set up nothing in its stead, leaving the Government composed of the Governor and the House of Assembly. It appears, however, that certain persons proposed to have an elective Council, and here-upon the fright arises respecting Monarchy. Let me ask of the right hon. Gentleman, if Monarchy is supposed to be of such a nature as necessarily to entail a nuisance on the people? Is a badly-constituted second branch of the Legislature necessary to the maintenance of Monarchy? because, if it be so, I will meet the right hon. Secretary at once, and declare, that the more rapidly the one and the other are got rid of the better. If we cannot maintain our dominion over our colonies without also maintaining a scourge, our dominion is a curse; and if the people be wise, they will cast us and the Legislative Council off at the same time. But, Sir, there is, I assert, no such necessity. I assume, that the Government of England has no intentions hostile to the interest of the people of the colony. I assume, also, that the House of Assembly will know, and will endeavour to attain, what is most conducive to the welfare of their constituents; therefore, I say, it follows necessarily, that the wishes of the English Government, and those of the House of Assembly, will be identical. That, to bolster up a good dominion, such a mischievous institution as the Legislative Council is utterly unnecessary; that it is useful only to bad purposes, and an incumbrance even when it acts most wisely. Does any one believe, that our dominion over the Canadas is maintained by some score of mischief-making old men, collected together, and called a Legislative Council? The Governor is not strengthened by them;—he would not be weaker in reality were they abolished to-morrow. How, then, I should like to know, is this body necessary to monarchy? But it may be said, allow two bodies of the Legislature to be chosen by the people, and you make the people paramount. I ask, in answer to this,—do you desire things different from what the people desire? If you do, you seek to establish bad government. If you do, you make bad government and Monarchy in

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this case identical. I, having a better opinion of the intentions of the English Government, suppose it to wish what the people wish, and, so wishing, that it would act in harmony with the people's Representatives, whether sitting in two Chambers or one. Therefore, I say, this supposed proposal of an Elective Council is, in no ways, opposed to monarchical institutions; and that it only seeks to establish a good for a pernicious institution. The right hon. Secretary, however, was not content with thus declaring war against the Assembly generally. He took care to quarrel with them in a matter peculiarly relating to their own privileges. The House of Assembly is fond of imitating the proceedings of this House; and, in order to ensure the purity and independence of the Members, it was determined to take a precaution which this House has established. In the year 1680, this House passed the following Resolution:—'That no Member of this House shall accept of any office or place of profit from the Crown without the leave of this House, or of any promise of any such office or place of profit during such time as he shall continue a Member of this House. Resolved, that all offenders herein shall be expelled this House.' The House of Assembly, in imitation of this, resolved, that all Members accepting place should vacate their seats, thereby making their constitution, in this particular, similar to our own. Some time since, Mr. Mondelet, being a Member, did accept of office; and the House declared, that he thereby vacated his seat, and called upon the Governor to issue a new writ for the county of Montreal. The Governor refused, and reported his refusal to the right hon. Secretary, who thereupon sent him a despatch, approving of his refusal to affix his name to the new writ for Montreal. [The hon. Member read the despatch.] It is quite evident, that the right hon. Secretary was egregiously in error, when he asserted, that the House of Commons never arrogated to itself this power. I have quoted this instance; and this proof of his own fallibility will, I hope, lead him to judge of others in future with something more of mildness. The tone of this despatch, like the one I have already read, is, in the highest degree, unworthy of any one claiming the character of a statesman. This sneering comparison of the knowledge and prudence of the House of Commons, and of the House of Assembly, was more
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fitted for the flippant critique of a review, than the grave document of a responsible Officer; and this comparison, too, is made in favour of a body who passed, nemine contradicente, the resolution I have above quoted, who expelled Wilkes, and who, twelve years afterwards, expunged the record of that expulsion from their Journals. Surely, surely the right hon. Secretary must study a little more carefully the history of his country, and learn to be less hasty and positive in assertion, when he finds that he has thus grossly erred. But what said the Assembly to this? Their answer was directly in the teeth of the right hon. Gentleman's assertions. [The hon. Member quoted some other resolutions of the House of Assembly.] The result, then, of all this imprudence on the part of the right hon. Gentleman is, that the province now is, in reality, without a Government. The three bodies of the Legislature are at open war, and no communication exists between them. In the Executive the Governor is powerless, for no monies have been granted; and besides, the Governor has utterly lost the confidence of the people. In addition to this, the Judiciary is vehemently suspected by the whole province; so that, in fact, the administration of justice may be said to be at a stand. And now, Sir, I ask, amid all this confusion, what is to be done? The right hon. Secretary has refused the plan proposed by the House of Assembly; and by his proceedings generally, he and his officer, the Governor, have put the country into a flame. A revolution (I will not hide it from the House) is at hand; and here comes the question,—what ought this House to do? Is it not, I ask, high time that we should carefully investigate the matter, and afford the people some means of redress—the Executive some means of exculpation? Is it not the height of madness to allow the confusion to continue, without inquiring whether the House is inclined to agree with the opinions which I have expressed respecting the conduct of the Home and Colonial Governments? I think, then, I have made out a sufficient case for the House to grant me the Committee which I ask. I have shown, beyond all doubt, that, whether wisely or unwisely, I shall not now ask, the provinces are in a state nearly approaching to revolution. I have explained, that the cause of this great excitement was a belief existing in the minds of the people of the colonies that their Government is a bad one. I have shown how

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necessarily they must be led to make comparisons between their own condition and the happy state of the American Republics; and that, therefore, it is highly necessary, if we desire to retain a peaceable dominion, that we should give the colonists every opportunity of expressing their complaints, and of seeking redress for their supposed grievances, through the ready intervention of the Imperial Legislature. On these grounds, I say, Sir, if we be governed by the dictates of a sound and benevolent policy, we shall unhesitatingly grant the Committee which I ask for, and allow the people to bring their complaints before us in a direct and straightforward manner. I hope, therefore, whatever else the right hon. Secretary may say on this occasion, he will not oppose the Resolution with which I intend to conclude. Before closing the observations which I have deemed it my duty to make, I would solemnly appeal to the prudence of the right hon. Gentleman, whose opinions will, I know, guide the determination of this House. I would beseech him to pause and reflect upon the consequences that will follow any rash declaration of hostility; and would earnestly entreat of him to listen to the dictates rather of a calm and sane policy, than the rash impulses of an impetuous temper. Let him recollect, that the great Republic of America, with her swarming citizens,—adventurous, wary, and sagacious,—is the close neighbour of our Canadian subjects; that thirteen millions of enthusiastic Republicans will watch with intense interest, and with selfish views, any dispute that takes place between the colonies and the mother country. Let him also be certain, that, if any rupture takes place between us, the colonists will ask, and will indubitably receive, assistance from their all-powerful neighbours. And on what terms will that assistance be granted? But on one only:—that the Canadians become part of the great Federal Republic. And when this event shall take place, who is there that, on surveying the vast possessions of this already but too formidable power, but will tremble for the fate of England. From the North Pole to the Sea of Mexico,—from the Atlantic to the Pacific,—will her gigantic territories extend. With a coast unequalled in the whole habitable globe,—with wise and beneficent institutions,—with a well-instructed and sagacious people, where shall we fix the limits of her power?—where find a check to her over-whelming force? The fleets of England
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will dwindle into insignificance,—her naval supremacy will shrink into obedient servitude to her Transatlantic offspring. The day is not far distant which will see this prophecy fulfilled, if we rashly drive into rebellion the provinces of Canada. If we yield to their wishes, on the other hand, we may bind them to us by the gentle, but firm bonds of friendship,—we may foster them by time into an opposing power to the giant strength of America, and may erect in the more northern territories of that happy Continent a rival to the United States in force, in commerce, and in happiness. Gentle treatment—wise conciliation—will effect this. Any rash and impetuous contempt of their desires will revive the disastrous days of 1774; and the colonies now, as then, will, with arms in their hands, at once and for ever, proclaim themselves independent of our dominion. Woe to that Minister who leads us to this result! The hon. Member concluded by moving "The appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the means of remedying the evils which exist in the form of the Governments now existing in Upper and Lower Canada."
Mr. Stanleysaid, he must offer his thanks to the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down, first for the advice which the hon. and learned Gentleman had tendered to him—advice which be received in the spirit of kindness—and in the next place for having, by the present motion, afforded him an opportunity to explain and bring under the consideration of the House not only the constitution, but also the present state of the province of Lower Canada. He knew not what was the object of the alteration which the hon. and learned Gentleman had made from the terms in which his Motion had originally been announced to those with which the hon. and learned Gentleman had just concluded his speech; but the House would not fail to observe, that the distinction was by no means immaterial: it was one question to discuss and consider the constitution of a Colony, and another to inquire into its present state and condition. He confessed, though he had listened with great attention to the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman, it was with no small difficulty that he had followed the hon. and learned gentleman through the complicated dates, terms, facts, and circumstances, which almost rendered the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement unintelligible to persons unacquainted with the

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subject-matter sought to be inquired into; but he (Mr. Stanley) begged the House to observe, that the hon. and learned Gentleman, on a general principle (which, however, he did not avow), called upon the Legislature of this country to enter into the consideration of the existing constitution of two colonial provinces, while the whole of the hon. and learned Gentleman's facts and allegations referred to one single province; nay more, the hon. and learned Gentleman had entirely omitted to inform the House that, in the other province, the Governor, the executive Council, and the Legislative Council, were united in the bonds of most perfect good feeling and unanimity, notwithstanding the strenuous efforts which had been essayed to disturb the harmony which had prevailed for a long period amongst these three branches of the local government of Upper Canada. It would be his duty to endeavour to supply this omission on the part of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He would first state, that not very long since a gentleman of the name of Mackenzie came over to this country from Upper Canada to complain to his Majesty's Government of certain grievances alleged by him to exist in that province. That complaint had been inquired into with the deepest anxiety by the noble Earl who was his predecessor in the office he had now the honour to fill, with a view to equal and impartial justice. His noble friend had called upon the Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada to take the best mode to meet the alleged grievances; and what was the answer of the House of Assembly—a body whose independence and freedom of action had not been and he presumed would not be, disputed by the hon. and learned Gentleman, himself an advocate for freedom, and who, he was satisfied, would not quarrel with the terms of the answer which he felt bound to read to the House? His noble friend, in his despatch to Upper Canada, had stated that Mr. Mackenzie had concluded his paper containing a statement of the grievances of which he complained, and from which he had anticipated no other result (if not removed or remedied) than bloodshed, civil war, and a dissolution of the connexion between this country and the province of Upper Canada. His noble friend added, that he himself would not consent to the adoption of the opinions of Mr. Mackenzie, but, on the contrary, would reject the supposition, that any doubt could be
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entertained that the people of Upper Canada would ever violate their sworn fidelity to their Monarch, and desolate their country by bloody rebellion. In answer to the communication of his noble friend, the House of Assembly stated:
We, his Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of Upper Canada, in Provincial Parliament assembled, return our thanks, for your Excellency's Message of the 12th day of January last, transmitting a despatch of the right hon. the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in answer to certain letters and documents addressed to his Lordship, for the purpose of proving that the people of this happy and prosperous colony are oppressed and burdened with grievances, and have become so discontented, that there is danger of revolt and bloodshed, unless those alleged burdens and grievances are removed and redressed.
We most readily concede that the noble Secretary of State was actuated by the best motives in framing the despatch in question; but we cannot refrain from expressing our great regret that it did not occur to his Lordship, that allegations thus deeply affecting the character of his Majesty's subjects of Upper Canada rested on no better testimony than that of an individual who had been twice expelled this House, and who, in consequence of his having fabricated and reiterated libels of the grossest description, had been declared unfit and unworthy a seat in the Assembly during the present Parliament. If this fact had occurred to his Lordship, it is reasonable to suppose, that he would not have felt himself at liberty to recognize the author of this additional calumny on the people of this province, as the agent, or as speaking the sentiments of any portion of the loyal inhabitants of the province of Upper Canada, and would therefore have considered it utterly unnecessary to enter into so elaborate an examination or refutation of anything advanced by him.
The House of Assembly are unwilling to occupy your Excellency's time or attention by commenting on the details of the dispatch, or on the different matters referred to in it, as constituting grounds of complaint on the part of a few of the people of this province; they will merely remark, that the remedy for any ills alleged to exist is placed in the hands and is within the constitutional power, of the Legislature of the colony; and the noble Secretary of State does the people of this province but justice in believing, that there are no people on earth who are less likely to yield to the unmanly weakness of despairing of the public good, and of betraying their most sacred duties in a pusillanimous spirit. Acting upon principles and feelings diametrically opposite to those imputed to them, we are confident, that they will take care to exercise their rights as freemen and British sub-

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jects, in such a manner as will insure the election of representatives who will maintain our excellent constitution, guard our rights, and, with the concurrence of the other branches of the Legislature, adopt such measures as may appear necessary for removing any just ground of complaint.
This was the Address of the House of Assembly of Upper Canada on this occasion. This was the way in which they spoke of that Constitution and that system of government which the hon. Member had thought fit to come down to that House to vilify and abuse. This was the language of the representatives of that Colony which the hon. Member would lead the House of Commons to consider as disaffected and discontented. This was the language of an Assembly elected in the freest and most impartial manner—chosen by a constituency composed of 40 s. freeholders and of persons in free possession of houses of the value of 5l., or renting houses of the value of 10 l. Yet this was the way in which the representatives of Canada spoke of the Constitution and of the happiness they enjoyed under it. He would next beg to remind the House, that, in the year 1828, a Committee of the House of Commons had been appointed to inquire into the government of Canada. The hon. Gentleman, in his review of circumstances since 1810, had thought fit to pass over that Committee without ever deigning to mention it, or to inform the House that such a Committee had sat at all. [Mr. Roebuck: The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken. I noticed the proceedings of that Committee] He was not even aware, that the hon. Gentleman had mentioned it. At all events the mention of it was so slight that it had altogether escaped his (Mr. Stanley's) observation. That Committee, in their Report, state that they "are desirous of recording the principle which, in their judgment, should be applied in any alterations in the constitutions of the Canadas which were imparted to them under the formal Act of the British Legislature of 1791. That principle is, to limit the alterations which it may be desirable to make by any future British Act, as far as possible, to such points as, from the relation between the mother country, and the Canadas, can only be disposed of by the paramount authority of the British Legislature; and they are of opinion, that all other changes should, if possible, be carried into effect by the Local Legislatures themselves, in amicable communication with the Local Government." He cordially em-
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braced that opinion. He joined the Committee in thinking that as little intervention as possible should take place on the part of the Government of the mother country, and he was surprised that the hon. Gentleman would propose an intervention on the part of this country, in the affairs of a colony which enjoyed freer institutions than almost any other country on the face of the globe, and the Legislative Assembly of which, chosen by the free voice of the people, had declared their satisfaction with the Government and the present system of affairs. He was peculiarly surprised that the hon. Gentleman should have chosen the present period to bring forward this Motion, when the general election in Canada was about to come on, and the people would have an opportunity of showing, by the choice or rejection of their present Representatives, whether or not they continued to enjoy that satisfaction which they had formerly expressed. He would take the allegations of the hon. and learned Member as he had made them, though the case of the two colonies was essentially different. In the one the Constitution was not complained of in any degree; in the other a party was strongly opposed to it. In Upper Canada there were no complaints, nor grounds of complaint but, he must admit, that the case was different in the Lower Province. In tracing the hon. and learned Gentleman through his several allegations and complaints, he would endeavour to trespass on the time of the House as shortly as the nature of the subject would admit, consistently with giving a full explanation of the points which the hon. and learned Gentleman had mooted. The first point mentioned by the hon. and learned Gentleman was the difference between the Constitution of Upper and Lower Canada. In the one, he admitted, that there was no matter for complaint, but, in the other, there was. The first point of complaint was the Constitution of the Executive, and next of the Legislative Council. The duties of the Executive Council were to advise with the Governor on the affairs of the colony; to pass the Government accounts as far as regarded the Treasury, and other matters connected with the Government; but, said the hon. Gentleman, the Executive Council interferes with the duties of the Legislative Council. This was a fallacy which ran through his whole argument. He told them of an act of abuse committed by Sir James Craig in 1810,

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which he willingly admitted to have been unconstitutional, and of other acts previous to 1828; but the hon. and learned Gentleman said nothing of the recommendations of the Committee of 1828; nor did he once tell the House that the Government had ever since acted in the closest manner on the recommendations of the Committee, and had used every exertion to do away with every cause of grievance. In the Amendment which he should conclude, by moving to the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, he meant to propose, that the Committee to be appointed should be confined in their inquiries to the state of Lower Canada. He proposed, that the Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of the Lower Province, because the Government of that colony was on its trial both here and in Canada. It was necessary that the members of that Government should have an opportunity of defending themselves from the accusations brought against them by the hon. and learned Member. He knew, that it would be impossible for the House to go into a consideration of the multifarious subjects which such an inquiry would embrace, still he invited—nay, more—demanded an inquiry, in order that the hon. Member should substantiate the charges brought against the Government, or the Government have an opportunity of refuting them; and he (Mr. Stanley) pledged himself to show before the Committee, that the Government, in all they had done, had acted in strict accordance with the recommendations of the Committee of 1828, and that their conduct throughout, since that period, had been marked by a spirit of conciliation and concession. With regard to the Legislative and Executive Councils, the hon. Member said, that the Executive Council swayed the opinions of the Legislative Council, and actually governed it; that it was the centre of a small body of place-men, who were entirely under the influence of the Government; and that the principal portion of the members of the Executive Council were members of the Legislative Assembly. Now, what was the fact? Why, that in the Executive Council of Upper Canada there were thirty-two members, of whom only six were members of the Legislative Council. As to Lower Canada, the Executive Council of that province consisted of thirty-seven members, three only of whom were in the Legislative Council. These were facts which he should be able to show satisfactorily to the House, and of which he could produce the most undeniable evidence
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before the Committee. The hon. Member had accused him of having altered the opinions which he had expressed in 1828, on the subject of the Constitution of the Legislative Council; but such was not the fact. He had then declared, and he now repeated, that a Legislative Council, constituted as the Legislative Council of Lower Canada then was, and depending, as the members then were, on the Crown, and subject to the influence of the Government, such a Legislative Council he had declared to be a grievance, and he still continued to be of that opinion. He would strengthen what he then said by some extracts from the Report of the Committee of 1828, in regard to the Government of Lower Canada; but, before doing so, he would beg to draw the attention of the House to a part of the evidence taken before that Committee. The House was aware, that in 1828, a petition, signed by 87,000 of the inhabitants of Lower Canada, living under the French law, was sent to the British House of Commons, in which complaints were made of arbitrary acts on the part of the Governor of the Province, and of many abuses. This petition was intrusted to the care of three gentlemen, Mr. Neilson, Mr. Viger, and Mr. Cuvillier, members of the Assembly of Lower Canada, who had been deputed to this country for the purpose of seeking redress of the injuries complained of by them. Now, it was remarkable, that Resolutions passed by the Assembly to which the hon. and learned Gentleman had referred, were opposed by Messrs. Neilson and Cuvillier, who could not be supposed to be opposed to the popular party. Mr. Neilson moved an Amendment, admitting some evils, but expressing satisfaction at the course pursued by the Government, and calling on the House to co-operate strenuously with the Governor for the redress of real and practical grievances. That was the language used by Mr. Neilson, in speaking to the fifth of the ninety-six Resolutions then adopted; and he complained, that his recommendation was not followed, but that, on the contrary, resolutions were agreed to, which condemned the Government. To show what Mr. Neilson's opinion was, in respect to the Constitution of the Legislative Council, he would quote that Gentleman's evidence before a Committee of the House of Commons. He stated:—
There are two modes in winch the Composition of the Legislative Council might be bettered: the one which, I believe, the majority of the people in Lower Canada have in view,

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is, by the exercise of the prerogative, appointing men who are independent of the Executive, and, in fact, who are able to live by their own means. That has appeared to us to be the most consistent with the Constitution under which we live. If that were found to be impracticable, the other mode would be to make the Legislative Council elective, by electors of a higher qualification, and fixing a qualification in property for the persons that might sit in the Council. I should conceive that the latter mode would be safe enough for all parties; still it seems to be a deviation from the Constitution under which we live.
You conceive, then, that the fault of the Legislative Council is not in the original constitution of the body, but in the manner in which the choice of councillors has been exercised?—Certainly; that may, perhaps, be unavoidable; because it is impossible that the Government here should see in the colony, excepting by the means of the people that are in the colony; they must take the recommendations that are sent from the colony; and if they are men that are not independent, and not suited altogether to act an independent part in the Council, of course they must appoint them notwithstanding, for they do not know that it is otherwise.
When you say that those alterations would improve the Constitution of the Legislative Council, do you use the word 'improve,' in this sense, that they would constitute a body which would agree with the lower House in their views, instead of agreeing with the Governor, as it now does, in his views?—I should suppose that it would be compelled to agree with neither one nor the other. At present, we suppose that it is absolutely compelled to agree with the Governor. Then it would be an independent body, that would keep the balance between the two, and give a certain stability to the existing laws and institutions.
It never was imagined (the witness continued), by us, at least, that the Legislative Council was to be otherwise than a body originating, in some measure, from the Crown.
He then recommended that—
The Judges ought to be excluded from the Legislative Council; for it unavoidably mixes them up with politics, and they become, instead of Judges, in some measure political partizans.
And, in reply to other questions, Mr. Neilson continued—
If the Chief Justice is to be everything as he is at present, a Member of the Legislative Council, Chairman of the Executive Council, presiding in the Court of Appeals, and taking an active part in all the public business of the province, he must be almost incapable of avoiding, when he is upon the Bench, feeling a certain bias: it is believed, too, that such a bias exists; for instance, when a prosecution is advised, it must be sanctioned in the Council in order to allow the expenses; the Executive
798
Council has, of course, advised the prosecution, and the Chief Justice is the Judge to sit on the Bench, and try it, and he is in danger of being biassed. In truth, people do conceive that there is a bias at present in matters where the Crown is concerned.
If the Chief Justice, or any Judge, were not to be active politicians, there would be no harm in their being anywhere; but the society being small, they become active politicians.
Is it not by being Executive Councillors that they get mixed up with politics?—Yes, that is the great evil of their being Legislative Councillors, but in the Legislative Council, in the passing of Bills, they take an active part; they are for or opposed to the Bill; and it has been frequently found, that they interpret in their Courts, according to the interpretation in the Council.
He continues—
Would you think it desirable that a provision of this sort should be made, that not above a certain proportion of the Legislative Council should consist of persons in the pay and employment of Government?—Certainly, I should say so, that would be a proper rule for the Government to act upon.
Mr. Neilson, therefore, did not object to the Legislative Council, but he wished that it should be kept distinct from the Executive Council. Mr. Cuvillier used still stronger language than Mr. Neilson in regard to the exclusion of the Judges. In the evidence given before the Committee, there was this passage:—
"Do the petitioners whom you represent complain of the composition of the Legislative Council?—They do.
"Of what do they complain?—They complain that the majority of the Members of the Legislative Council are persons holding places of profit during pleasure, and, in consequence of that, they are not considered independent of the Crown.
How do they propose to remedy it?—I do not know that their opinion has been taken upon that particular point. I can only give it as my opinion to the Committee, that if it were not expedient to make the Legislative Council elective, certainly the Judges ought to be excluded from that body, and also the Collectors and Receivers of Revenue, and the Auditors of Accounts. If, on the other hand, the Legislative Council were to be elective, a certain qualification, of course, would be requisite in the Electors, and a certain qualification for the Members; but, decidedly, certain descriptions of persons ought not to be elected in the Council, for instance, Collectors and Receivers of the Revenue."
Now this was not the Report of the Committee of the House of Commons, but the language of the Representatives of the

799
popular portion of the House of Assembly of Lower Canada. The Committee of this House, at the same time, strongly recommended, that "a more independent character should be given to the Legislative Councils in both the Canadas; that the majority of the Members should not consist of persons holding offices at the pleasure of the Crown; and that any other measures that might tend to connect more intimately this branch of the Constitution with the interests of the Colonies would be attended with the greatest advantage. With respect to the Judges, with the exception of the Chief Justice, whose presence on particular occasions might be necessary, your Committee entertain no doubt that they had better not be involved in the political business of the House. Upon similar grounds it appears to your Committee, that it is not desirable that Judges should hold seats in the Executive Council." These were the recommendations of the Committee of the House of Commons. To show how they had been acted on, with the exception of the Chief Justice, none of the Judges now occupied seats in the Council; and not only in this particular, but in all other respects, it would be found, that the recommendations of the Committee had been complied with in a spirit of good faith. In 1828, the Legislative Council consisted of twenty-seven Members, of whom eighteen held offices under the Crown, and eight were of French Canadian birth. But what was the state of the Legislative Council at the present time? Its character for independence was infinitely greater now than it was then in both Upper and Lower Canada; for, as he had before stated, all the Judges were withdrawn from it, with the exception of the Chief Justice. Since 1828, the number of the members of the Legislative Council was increased from twenty-seven to thirty-five, and of these only seven were connected with the Crown; so that now no fewer than twenty-seven members of that body were wholly independent of the Government. If the fact should be disputed, he was ready to prove it by positive evidence. He would furnish a list of the names of the parties, as his desire was, that the matter should be sifted from the bottom. He repeated, that the Government here must have been grossly deceived,—a circumstance he did not believe, if the fact were not as he had stated, that twenty-seven out of the thirty-five members who constituted the Legislative Assembly held no offices whatever under the Government, or at the pleasure
800
of the Crown. With respect to the national origin of the members of which the hon. Member complained, he found that she Assembly was composed, at the different periods, as follows:—

1828.

1833.

Anglo-Americans

3

5

English

6

7

Irish

2

1

Scotch

9

8

French Canadians

6

11

But it must be remembered, that the complaint was, that the French Canadians were excluded, whereas it was a fact that, since 1828, the number of them had been nearly doubled. This was the spirit in which the Government carried into execution the recommendations of the Committee; and to show that they still continued to carry them through with the same spirit, he would read an extract from a despatch of Lord Aylmer, dated 1831, and addressed to the noble Lord who filled the office which he (Mr. Stanley) had the honour of now filling. Lord Aylmer forwarded a list of eleven names for appointment to seats in the Legislative Council; and it would be found that every one of them was independent of the Government, with the exception of one gentleman, a French Canadian, who held the nominal office of Provincial Aide-de-Camp to the Governor. Lord Aylmer said, 'These gentlemen if appointed, will increase the number of the Legislative Council to thirty-five, including the Speaker, and without counting the three Puisne Judges of the district of Quebec (Messrs. Kerr, Tashereau, and Bowen), who no longer attend the meetings, or take part in the deliberations of that body. In the accompanying list your Lordship will observe, that of the eleven gentlemen now recommended to be appointed Legislative Councillors, eight are of French extraction, four are Members of the House of Assembly; and they are totally independent of the Local Government of the province, with one exception, as appears by the accompanying list, and the circumstances attending which are therein stated. Of the thirty-five Members of which the Legislative Council will consist in the event of these gentlemen being appointed, fifteen will be found of French extraction.' Subsequent additions had been made in the same spirit, and the result was, that instead of the Government having a majority of six in the Legislative Council, who were removable at pleasure, as in 1828, the whole thirty-five Members were now independent, and beyond the control

801
of the Government. This showed, that the Government had substantially and honestly adopted the recommendations of the Committee of 1828. The hon. Gentleman had stated, that he had departed from the principles laid down by the Committee, but he had now read that which appeared in the evidence before the Committee of the House, and the Report made thereon; and he was prepared to show, that his whole proceedings had been consistent with the recommendations of the Report. The hon. Member asked, whether his despatches were written in a spirit which showed good-will to the Assembly; the hon. and learned Gentleman might think not; but the course which it had been his painful duty to pursue from the period of his accepting the Seals of the Colonial Office was only in unison with that which the noble Lord who preceded him, at last, and with the greatest reluctance, felt himself bound to adopt. The Government of this country had been most anxious to maintain harmony between the Crown and the House of Assembly, but it had unhappily devolved upon him, in the exercise of his duty, to endeavour to put down the monstrous pretensions to which the House of Assembly laid claim—pretensions which, if admitted, would at once have subverted the Constitution of Lower Canada. He would beg to call the attention of the House to the situation of the province at the time he accepted the office of Colonial Secretary. While he fully concurred with the views which his noble friend had taken, and while he was prepared to defend the policy on which he had acted—while he was ready to admit his own responsibility as a member of the Government during the time his noble friend held the Colonial Seals, for any one and for all the acts which had proceeded from the Colonial Office, he was not prepared to submit to an invidious distinction between himself and his predecessor. There was another point in the speech of the hon. Member—he trusted the House would bear with him, though he was aware how difficult it was to command its attention on such a subject—there was another point to which he would beg to refer—namely, one of finance. The House of Assembly claimed the uncontrolled direction of the revenues raised in the province, and he admitted the general principle which that claim involved. But he was borne out by the opinion of the House of Commons in 1828; and at any rate he had right reason to justify him in
802
thinking that the Executive Officers and the Judges ought to be rendered independent of the caprices of a popular Assembly. He believed, too, that the House of Commons would join with him in saying, that these Officers should not be dependent on an annual grant of money. If there were any one thing more calculated than another to uphold and secure, not only the liberty, but the happiness of the people, it was to be found in maintaining the Judicial Bench independent of the Crown on the one hand, and of the people on the other. ["Hear, Hear," from Mr. Roebuck.] He was glad to hear the hon. Gentleman admit that fact, because when that was granted, all that he contended for must follow. The hon. and learned Gentleman however had omitted to state, that in 1774, the Act called the Quebec Act was passed, under which certain duties were leviable by his Majesty, without any control. In the year 1778, a Declaratory Act was passed by the Legislature, by which the duties levied in the province were made applicable only to colonial purposes. In 1791, a division—a most unfortunate division, in his opinion—was made of that portion of the dominions of the British Crown into the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada; the upper province being peopled by English and American settlers, while the lower was almost entirely occupied by the descendants of the French colonists. A separate Government, and, of course, a separate Legislative Council, were granted to both provinces, while, at the same time, the free enjoyment of the laws under which they had up to that time lived was guaranteed to all, although the basis of the laws which the French so much regarded was the feudal tenure in its most unmitigated and worst form. It was declared, that they should have the unrestrained use of their own language, their own religion, their own laws; and, on the part of the English Government, that engagement had been zealously, sedulously, anxiously, adhered to. A way was indeed thrown open for those who chose to avail themselves of it, to enable them to hold lands in free and common soccage. At this period the amount of the revenue coming into the Crown from the casual and territorial duties rendered it unnecessary to apply to the House of Assembly for any sums in aid of the local expenditure; and that continued so till 1818, when an application was found necessary. The House of Assembly at first complied with the requisition, and

803
granted an additional sum of money, without any stipulations as to its disposal; but, after some time, they claimed—and he thought that the claim was a fair one—they claimed a superintendence over the revenues collected within the province. Things went on in this state for a few years; concessions being made sometimes on one side, and sometimes on the other, till at last the Governor of the province authorized the Receiver to take any sum out of the chest of the province on an order signed by him, without waiting for the sanction of the House of Assembly for its appropriation. That was a step which never should meet with his approbation; and it was at this proceeding that the censure of the Select Committee of the House of Commons in 1828 was levelled. To show the spirit by which the House of Assembly was actuated, he would then mention one circumstance. The Legislature broke up last year at an early period, leaving the quarantine establishments in a state of great distress, when the Cholera was raging with unexampled fury, and famine was partially ravaging the country. Under these circumstances, the Governor, chiefly from his own resources, had advanced 7,000 l. to provide for the pressing wants which such a calamity occasioned; and when he applied the next Session, in full confidence that the House of Assembly would reimburse him for what he had thus humanely advanced, he was met by a taunt against the misappropriation of the money. The House would observe, that not one farthing of this 7,000 l. had been expended in paying the salaries of any members of the Executive, or of the Judges, but it had been all laid out in alleviating, at a time of great national suffering, the distresses of the sick population. Admitting the control of the House of Assembly over the taxes levied by their authority, there still remained the duties levied and appropriated under the 14th George 3rd: and on this point the opinion of the Select Committee of the House of Commons, to which he had before referred, was this:—'That from the opinion given by the law-officers of the Crown, your Committee must conclude, that the legal right of appropriating the revenues arising from the Act of 1774, is vested in the Crown; but the real interest of the province would be best promoted, by placing the receipts and expenditure of the whole public revenue under the superintendence and control of the House of Assembly. Your Commit-
804
tee, while recommending such a concession on behalf of the Crown, are strongly impressed with the advantage of rendering the Governor, the members of the Executive Council, and the Judges, independent of the annual votes of the House of Assembly for their respective salaries.' In pursuance of that proposal, his noble friend (Lord Aylmer) had proceeded to his appointment, and, relying upon the good faith of the House of Assembly of Lower Canada, had surrendered all the revenues of the province into their hands, fully expecting to receive that fair and honourable treatment which such confidence deserved. In this confidence, however, he had been disappointed: he had been met only with revilings and refusal. It was not lightly, nor upon insufficient authority, that he now brought forward this charge against the House of Assembly, for he held in his hand the resolution of the Assembly in 1828, to the effect that it would be expedient to render the Governor, Judges, and other Executive functionaries, independent of that House for the payment of their yearly salaries. On the passing of this Resolution, Government had proceeded in a sort of medium course, and, by a temporary arrangement, deducted the salaries of its officers from the original Crown-dues. But the House of Assembly then persisted in including their amount in the general Estimate of the Civil-list. On this, his noble friend and predecessor offered to take 35,000 l. in consideration of their expenses, provided the Legislative Assembly would consent to make a permanent provision to that extent. This, however, was refused. It was in 1831 that his noble friend made this proposal to the Assembly of Lower Canada, and at the same time made proposals of a similar nature to the Assembly of the Upper Province. From the latter Assembly he received in reply an Address of Thanks, for the kind manner in which his Majesty had met their wishes in that particular, and they offered to secure a permanent Civil-list for the maintenance of his Majesty's Government and the Judicial Authorities. Upon the strength of these assurances, his noble friend had brought a Bill into Parliament in conformity with the plans they proposed, placing full dependence upon the word and honour of the House of Assembly, that they would forthwith make the Judges independent of the annual vote of the Assembly. But how did the event turn out? Had the Assembly made any such perma-

805
neat provision? No. They pretended to pass an Act regulating the condition of those officers, and, amongst other things, enacted that they should hold their offices for life; but they had not fixed what salaries they were to receive. They pretended to establish the independence of the executive officers of the Crown; but they at the same time assumed to themselves a right of impeachment over all the high officers of the State. The Legislative Assembly passed that Bill; but it was afterwards declared to be inadmissible to the Royal sanction, not by him (Mr. Stanley), but by his noble predecessor who was then in office. His noble friend had signified his dissent to that measure, and at the same time stated, that his Majesty would for the future provide for the salaries of his judicial functionaries out of the revenues already in the hands of the Government. The House of Assembly in various other ways, continued to assume a right of interference in the executive powers of the Crown, as in the appointment of officers, and other similar matters, with which they had no right to concern themselves. If the executive powers of the State were thus to be made continually dependent upon the control of a popular Assembly, instead of the discretion of those intrusted with the duties of Government, it would be better to hand over the whole of those executive powers at once into their hands. He was sorry to trouble the House with so many details, but he must state one or two particulars to illustrate the conduct of the Assembly. It so happened, that the district of Gaspe, one of the few places in Lower Canada where English influence rather predominated, had been some time ago represented by a gentleman of the name of Christie, who had been indiscreet enough to displease by some publication, the party paramount in the House of Assembly, and on his appearing to take his seat there, it was determined that he was not a fit person to sit with them. He was re-elected, and five or six times in succession, no longer entering into any discussion on the point of his qualification, they expelled him after each re-election. Now, in this instance, whatever might be the private opinion of individuals, so strongly did the Government feel that they could not interfere with the privileges of the House of Assembly, that not the least hesitation was manifested at issuing the respective writs which the Assembly in this instance ordered. With regard to M. Mondelet, be had accepted
806
the honorary appointment of a Councillor, for which he received no emolument whatever. There was no law subsisting in the colony which required the vacating of a seat in the Legislature on accepting an appointment. They, however, determined that all persons who for the future should accept offices of emolument under the Crown should vacate their seats in the Legislature; they sent this Bill to the other branch, and passed a Resolution, that even before it received the Royal Assent, it should have the force of law in the colony. Now, M. Mondelet did not come within the provisions of this enactment, either in the letter or in the spirit, yet the Speaker was ordered to issue his writ for a new election, in consequence of M. Mondelet's having accepted a place of profit under the Crown. He spoke under correction, but he spoke on very high authority, when he said, that the House of Commons knew its own privileges and the rights of others too well to arrogate to itself the power of making laws without the consent of the other branches of the Legislature; and if the Great Seal was ordered to be affixed to any such illegal enactment, the Chancellor of Great Britain, whose office the Governor of Lower Canada filled, would not permit that order to be executed. He really hardly knew how to follow the hon. Gentleman through the many points his speech presented; but he would touch on what the hon. member was pleased to call the massacre at Montreal. Now, this formidable phrase meant, in fact, nothing more than an election disturbance, in which two or three persons were unfortunately killed. The Grand Jury, whose functions had been but recently modelled, and modelled after the Grand Juries in England—by the way, great praise had been bestowed by the Judges on the manner in which the very perplexing provisions of the act to establish Grand Juries in Canada had been met—ignored the bill preferred against the individuals who were charged with the murder, and an address, signed by 7,700 persons, out of a population of about 21,000 inhabitants, expressed the high sense which those who had signed the address entertained of the temper with which these election proceedings were conducted. The House of Assembly instituted an inquiry into the circumstances; they summoned witnesses; they examined papers; and finding they could at that time make nothing of it, adjourned the inquiry to the next Session. It was then resumed, and

807
made the pretext for postponing the writ for this the most important city in Lower Canada, and the principal mart of commerce was kept for a year and a-half without a representative, the assembly alleging that it was not proper to issue a writ for the city during its then riotous state. He believed, that in doing this, the Assembly had only in view the exclusion of British influence. He was glad, that in Upper Canada at least, there existed no difference in their language, their religion, and their laws, and though there were certainly some variations in opinion entertained on what engendered the most vehement feelings of antipathy—religion, they had not risen to anything like animosity. He would beg to refer to part of the evidence delivered before the Committee of 1828, by a gentleman whose opinions, from his practical knowledge of the Canadas, were entitled to the greatest weight—he meant his right hon. friend, the Secretary at War. His right hon. friend stated, that the great object of the French colonists was, to maintain themselves in the condition in which they had up to the present time remained, and that if he were in their situation he might reasonably form the same wishes, but that these objects could only be effected at the expense of sacrificing British interests, and of retarding all improvement. There was no person more studiously desirous than he was to preserve the engagements which this country had entered into with the Canadians, and maintain them in the free exercise of their religion; but, at the same time, they had a duty to perform in promoting the influx of British capital and protecting British settlers going into the province. This was a struggle which had long been going on between the British in habitants and French seigneurs; the latter being apprehensive of danger to their feudal tenures. That, at some future period, the two provinces would be reunited he had not the least doubt, but at the present time he felt an unwillingness to recommend to Parliament this step, and he had stated in his despatch, that he was averse from interfering in any manner with the charter, though he had little doubt that, ultimately that would be necessary, as the only means of restoring harmony between all parties. Their great grievance was the Canada Tenures Act. The allotments of land in the back settlements were granted out by that in free and common soccage, and were intended to be subject to the English laws of property,
808
without interfering with the rights of the seigneurs over land already appropriated. Difficulties had arisen as to the interpretation of passages in the Act of Parliament of 1791, which it was found could not be dealt with by the Canada authorities; and Parliament, as it was justified in doing, stepped in to interpret its own Act. The Crown, which was in the place of seigneur paramount of the whole province, offered all the seigneurs the choice of holding in free and common soccage, instead of by feudal tenure, and this without levying any fine, provided only they would deal in like manner with all persons who held under them. It was voluntary on their part; but only two or three had taken advantage of it, while half the seigneuries lay waste and unoccupied. But how that law could injure the seigneurs, as it did not interfere with them, he could not understand. It was idle to suppose, that the interest of the French inhabitants could be affected by such a course of proceeding. On the contrary, the Canada Tenures Bill was calculated most materially to benefit the province and the great mass of the inhabitants who were French Canadians. He would now address himself to the cases in which complaints respecting the conduct of the Government had been made; and he challenged a rigorous investigation into the facts and circumstances of each case. The first was the seminary of Montreal, the rights of which, he begged to say, were held in considerable doubt. This seminary was originally attached to that of St. Sulpice, at Paris. It now exercised the functions, and enjoyed the privileges, of seigneur of Montreal, amongst which was the power of imposing taxes and duties. The House would immediately perceive how excessively onerous this must be in a large commercial town like Montreal. He believed he was correct in stating, that a tax, amounting to one-fifth on every mutation of property, was levied there. The Law Officers of the Crown had given an opinion against the fact of those rights being vested in the seminary. The rights and revenues had been originally granted for the conversion of the infidels; now they were turned to the purposes of education. An adjustment of the claims of the seminary had been proposed; and what, he asked, were the terms offered by the Government? It proposed to grant to the seminary the whole amount of its annual revenues, taking an average of the receipts for the last ten years; and, moreover, they

809
further pledged themselves, that, if any surplus arose from the revenues, upon the payment of this annual allowance they would place that surplus in the hands of the House of Assembly for purposes of education. Next, as to the complaint, that the Legislative Council was not made elective, he contended that, in a country where the mass of the population were French Canadians, while almost all the property, with the exception of the land, was in the hands of the British inhabitants, and when the House of Assembly, from a jealousy of their own laws and privileges, showed an aversion to the settlement of British capital in the province, and threw continual obstacles in the way; if they were to make the Legislative Council elective, it could have no other effect than that of not only abrogating the power of the Government and of the Executive, but, moreover, the rights of British subjects, which he, for one, was not prepared to surrender to any means of intimidation which any body of men could employ. He would meet their efforts, however, with constitutional resistance, by keeping in the hands of the Government the influence over a body which, while it could not interfere with the functions or privileges of the House of Assembly, would yet act as a shield to all classes of his Majesty's subjects; and would, without reference to the popularity of their proceeding at the moment, see that all were protected, let the assault come from whatsoever quarter it might. The last charge was, that they had not admitted a fair proportion of French Canadians to public offices. It was alleged, that, out of 214 public functionaries, only forty-seven were French Canadians. Now, it was the very nature of a colony that, in order to preserve the connexion between it and the mother country entire, many officers should be brought from the latter. How were the facts of the case? Of the 214, 125 were of British origin, and born in these countries, and eighty-one were born in the Canadas; and of those eighty-one so born in the Canadas, thirty-one were of British parentage, and fifty of French Canadian parentage. This was the fair way to take the proportion of the French Canadians employed by Government, not as compared with those sent from the mother country, and with the British-born Canadians, but simply and solely with the latter. It was true that, of nine Judges three only were French Canadians; but when the hon. Member said, that the
810
Judges, like the Legislative Council, were not connected with the colony, he said that which was altogether incorrect. There was not one of these Judges from this country. They were all gentlemen from the bar of Canada, who had adopted Canada as their own, and had raised themselves to the bench by successful professional exertion. He was satisfied to rest the defence of the Government—not of himself alone, but of his predecessor—upon the statements he had that night made. He was desirous of having them subjected to the most rigorous investigation, limiting it, however, strictly to the subjects which had been made the foundation of charges against them. He would freely give any despatch he had written, together with the answer he had received; and he hoped the documents he would so cheerfully furnish, would not alone be examined, but re-examined, and cross-examined. The Government was on its trial; and he hoped it would have a full, fair, and impartial one. There was another question to which he would briefly refer, and that was a financial one. He had to state, that he should feel himself compelled to come before them in consequence of the violation of the implied pledge of the Legislative Assembly, with his noble friend, when he brought in his Bill, in 1831, which conferred on the Assembly the power of voting its own supplies. It was then understood, that the Assembly would provide permanently for the maintenance of the judicial establishment in the colony. That they had failed to do; and as it was not to be tolerated that the Judges should be left dependent upon the annual grants of a popular Assembly, he should feel it his duty to propose a Bill for suspending the Act in question until the Legislative Assembly had redeemed their pledge, and made a fitting permanent provision for the judicial establishment. He trusted, in asking this, he was not going too far, when he was, at the same time, ready to make the stipulation, that, after the condition had been complied with, the whole of the revenues should be given over to the authority of the Provincial Assembly. He would not dwell upon the topics insisted upon, or the expressions used in the recent Resolutions of the Legislative Assembly. Great praise was conferred upon two hon. Members of that House,—the hon. member for Dublin, and the hon. member for Middlesex,—praise which, he doubted not, was most sweet to their ears: they were described as

811
the champions of the rights and liberties of their respective countries, even in the worst days of Tory Government; and applauded, as sharing the liberal and enlightened feelings of the Legislative Assembly of Lower Canada. After professing their attachment to Great Britain, the Assembly proceeded to talk about the institutions of America, and to indulge in the expression of such extreme opinions, conveyed in such objectionable language, that he would not trust himself with any comment upon them, lest perchance he might lose his temper, against which the hon. Member had so courteously and so kindly cautioned him. In conclusion, then, he would move, as an Amendment upon the Motion of the hon. Member, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire and report, whether the grievances complained of in 1828, by certain inhabitants of Lower Canada, had been redressed, and also whether the recommendation of a Committee of that House, to whom the question of these grievances was referred, had been complied with on the part of the Government; also to inquire into other grievances now set forth in the Resolutions of the House of Assembly in Lower Canada, and report thereupon to the House."
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that, from the aspect things had assumed, he would advise his friend to withdraw his Motion and allow the amendment to succeed, placing the inquiry upon the responsibility of the Government, as he was sure it would be of great use to those colonies. He would not enter into details, but merely express his opinion that to take into consideration the vital interests of our colonies would, even as a precedent (putting out of the question the positive and practical good effected), tend to strengthen the social link between the mother country and her dependencies. A reciprocity of confidence, of justice and support—and these were great things—would be promoted. With respect to the legislation, he (Mr. O'Connell) thought the decision of the Upper House in the colonies worth nothing. The Resolution alluded to was carried by a simple majority of three. Surely a decision of such an assembly, adopted by so small a majority could not, in common fairness, be considered as representing the opinion of the whole colony. It was one thing to say, that there was a majority of the Assembly, and another thing to presume, that those persons would be again elected by their constituents.
812
Let the real condition of Lower Canada be looked to. There were 550,000 native Canadians, and only 75,000 British. Unquestionably the great preponderance of the native population would, as it ought, produce a feeling favourable to the interests of the people, and in some degree unfavourable to the British interest. Again, the difference of religion (and here the balance was struck in favour of the natives against the British) must have naturally operated as another cause of discontent, especially if religion were made one of the instruments of domination. Again, not more than one out of three Justices were landlords, and of the Judges not one-third were landlords. It appeared, too, from the list which he held in his hand, that the majority of the Legislative Council were public tenants under the control of the Crown, or adventurers who had no stake in the colony. It was a monstrous anomaly to invest the Crown with the appointment of the Legislative Council, which was only the creature of its own will. A body to legislate for the good of the people should be elected by the people. The example of the United States was enough to teach the Canadians, as it ought to teach all who valued a pure, salutary, and practical system of representation, that the dominion of a foreign Government was not one of the wisest or the best instruments to be used in promoting the prosperity of any people, and that a free and effective election of public functionaries by the people who paid them was the best mode of carrying the public business to a successful issue. Then, as to the ministers of religion, he was sure, that the Canadians would sooner die than submit to have their Catholic clergy degraded. That was the reason why the English law as to property was opposed. It would deprive the Catholic clergy of every foot of ground. Then again with respect to voting the supplies, why should not the assembly have the control of every item of the expenditure? That assembly had made no grant to the Judges, because if it did that, it might not be called together at all. As to the case of murder in Montreal, these two facts were plain—the Government had undertaken the prosecution, and there had been no trial. The blood that had been shed was yet unatoned for. Such being the case, the Legislative Assembly had a perfect right, it was their duty, to adopt the course they had pursued. But it was said by the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies that the inhabitants of Lower

813
Canada were opposed to improvement. By that he supposed it was meant that they would follow their own judgment which they had a perfect right to do. Was not the property in the province their property? Assuredly it was; and they had a right not merely to appoint the Legislative Assembly, but also the Legislative Council. That concession ought, in good policy and sound justice, to be made to them. The Crown would still possess ample authority; and, in fact, the only authority it could possess in accordance with its best interest and the peace and prosperity of the colony. The concession of the Committee of Inquiry rendered it unnecessary for him to go any further into the question; but he could not resume his seat without protesting against any project for a legislative union between the two provinces. Such a measure must produce the worst results, and excite disturbances not to be quieted but by the alienation of the Colonies. Let the Government act wisely, and give to the Canadians the appointment of the Legislative Council, as well as of the Legislative Assembly, and the present difficulties would be overcome.
Mr. Humesaid, the triumph for Lower Canada, which had been achieved through the Motion of his hon. friend the member for Bath, in the concession of the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry, would have induced him to refrain from addressing the House upon the question, had not the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies particularly alluded to him in the course of his speech. He would tell the right hon. Gentleman that he would much rather be considered as the protector of a distant people than the oppressor of our own subjects. He would tell the right hon. Gentleman that since he had presided in the Colonial Office, discontent had prevailed in the colonies at the insults and injuries they had received, and they had been induced to study seriously how they could best protect themselves. Much had been said of the spirit which prevailed in Lower Canada; it was said that it was averse to the British connection; and in support of that assertion reference was made to the majorities in favour of the similar measures adopted by Government in Upper Canada. He would tell the right hon. Gentleman, and those who credited such representations that the majorities favourable to the recent measures of Government in Upper Canada were obtained by corruption and bribery. But, notwithstanding the most gross and exten-
814
sive corruption in Upper Canada, the majorities for the Government measures had been trifling, while in Lower Canada, the votes had been two to one against them. Had the right hon. Gentleman pursued the course taken by his predecessor, Lord Goderich, the state of affairs at the present moment would have been very different from what it was. When Lord Goderich found that the Attorney and Solicitor General had misconducted themselves, he at once suspended them, and his conduct drew forth the gratitude of the colony; but the right hon. Gentleman, as soon as he entered upon office, appointed one of these Gentlemen to a superior office in Nova Scotia, and sent the other back to Upper Canada, as if to exhibit a triumph over that portion of the people who had required his removal. To make a colony beneficial, the mother country must carry with it the hearts of the people, and that could never be the case in Canada while the Crown pretended to a revenue independent of the Legislature. Would the people of this country endure any such pretension? What would be said if the Crown in the United Kingdom should claim a revenue independent of Parliament? He, therefore, disapproved of the conduct sanctioned by the right hon. Gentleman with respect to the reserved revenue. The Crown ought at once to have conceded all right to that revenue. But the effect of the two systems was best seen in its results. Lord Goderich had been thanked throughout the colony, and the right hon. Gentleman had been censured, and in as severe terms as language could apply. He would not then read the Resolutions adopted, but it was evident from them that the Legislative Assembly, as existing, was an alien to the sympathies of the people. He was glad there was to be a Committee of Inquiry, but he should regard that Committee as worthless if it were not impartially selected. That was a point of great importance, for if it were composed of Members not ready and anxious to go fully into the question it would give no satisfaction. It was impossible to keep up an aristocracy in the colonies as had been proposed by Sir George Murray. The contiguity to the United States rendered any such scheme impracticable, and it must be abandoned. He was astonished that Government had not long since seen the impossibility of preserving its authority in the colonies unless they were allowed the entire control of their own finances. The right hon. Gen-

815
tleman had declared his anxiety to do justice to the Canadians, and the right hon. Gentleman was pleased with his own exertions in that behalf; but there was not one soul in the colonies who did not condemn them. The persons principally to be affected by the inquiry were at a distance and without Representatives in that House, and that was another reason why the Committee should be impartial and efficient.
Viscount Howickrose rather to correct some errors into which hon. Members had fallen than to discuss the question at large. Indeed, as a Committee of Inquiry was to be appointed, such a discussion at that moment would be ill-timed. The two hon. Members who had spoken last had stated the great point in dispute to be whether or not the colony should be permitted to exercise a full and efficient control over the public purse. He was most decidedly of opinion that it should; but that, in fact, was not the question; and he must do the Government of the Duke of Wellington the justice to state, that it was not the question even while that Government was in existence. That Government and the present had fully admitted that right, and had acted up to that admission. The chief point now in dispute was whether or not the salaries of the Judges should be permanently fixed; in fact, whether or not the Judges should be independent of the Assembly, in as far as remuneration was concerned. The hon. and learned member for Dublin had complained that the Roman Catholic clergy in Lower Canada were hardly dealt by. The hon. and learned Member must have been entirely misinformed. Ever since the conquest the utmost care had been taken to prevent the possibility of any such complaint being made with justice; and he was quite sure that if the hon. and learned Gentleman would inquire fully into the matter he would find the real state of the case to be that the Roman Catholic clergy regarded the party of Mr. Papineau as far less favourable to them than the other. The hon. and learned Member again had completely misconceived the case when he stated that the Government had denied the right of the Legislative Assembly to expel its Members. The fact was the reverse. In the one province, Mr. M'Kenzie, and in the other Mr. Christie, had been expelled, and the Government, however wrong it might have thought the expulsion in each case, did not at all question the right, although it questioned the manner in which
816
it was exercised, and issued the writ as requested. The case, however, of Mr. Mondelet was very different. He, in fact, was not expelled, and, therefore, the Governor refused the writ. The circumstances were these:—A Bill was in progress rendering an acceptance of office a disqualification for a seat in the Assembly. Mr. Mondelet accepted a mere honorary office, and the Legislative Assembly having passed a Resolution to the effect proposed in the Bill, applied for a new writ, on the ground that Mr. Mondelet had vacated his seat. Of course the Governor refused the writ, for Mr. Mondelet had not been expelled; and to have allowed a simple Resolution of the Legislative Assembly the force of law would have been to have given that body the entire power of the Legislature. He regretted deeply that the affairs of Lower Canada had come to the present pass. Ever since he had had a seat in that House he had taken a great interest in the subject; and when he sat on the other side of the House he had, with his right hon. friend (Mr. Stanley) and Mr. Huskisson, strongly opposed the plan of Sir George Murray for retaining a part of the reserved revenue as a provision for a Civil-list. He had considered that it was much better for the Crown to concede its rights, than to come into conflict with the Assembly, for he had then a full conviction that the Assembly would permanently provide for the salaries of the municipal and judicial officers, and he was now extremely sorry to find that expectation had not been realized. With respect to what had passed during the last twelve months he could not, of course, pretend to any knowledge, but he did know that even when he left office the aspect of affairs was very threatening. In the appointment of the Committee he rejoiced, for he hoped and believed that it would lead to some plan which would effect an amicable adjustment of the difficulties. He also hoped that the Members on the other side who possessed, unquestionably, great influence in Lower Canada would exercise that influence rather to soothe than to exasperate.
Mr. Patrick Stewartrejoiced that the subject had been brought forward, for he was convinced that if peace were to be restored in Canada it must be by instituting an inquiry into the complaints. After the great colonial measure of last Session he thought the House might well be bold in colonial improvement. He was also glad of the distinction which had been kept in

817
view between the two provinces. Indeed, when he read the notice of Motion as given by the hon. member for Bath, it excited his astonishment, for although he knew that that hon. Member was connected by descent and residence with Canada he could not conceive how he could make out a case of inquiry as applicable to both provinces. There was but one mode, in his opinion, of remedying the evils now disturbing Lower Canada, and that remedy was a legislative union between the two provinces. He was convinced that nothing but a restoration of the old bond of union would overcome the difficulties which were now so severely felt. He approved of the conduct of Government with reference to the reserved revenue. The understanding three years ago was, that the Civil-list should be permanently voted; and yet no permanent provision had been made even for the Judges. Inquiry, however, was absolutely necessary for the satisfaction of all parties, and he, therefore, rejoiced to find that a Committee was to be appointed.
Mr. Roebuckcontended, that if there had been any breach of good faith it rested with the Government, and not with the House of Assembly. As a proof of the violence that had been offered to the popular feeling, he would only direct the attention of the House to the attempts which had been made by the Legislative Council to nurse an English party into existence in opposition to the French inhabitants, and to the attempts which had been made by the Judges to suppress the use of the French language in the Courts of Law. They did not succeed, indeed, because the people resisted those attempts. Could it be said that nothing had been done to excite the people's jealousy, while unjust distinctions were kept up; and attempts were made to establish a Protestant Church—the greater part of the population being Catholic? How could it be expected that people would contentedly see efforts made to set up a Church for which they were to pay, in which they felt no interest, if they did not entertain towards it a decided hostility? There ought to be no distinction of a religious description—no distinction of classes of the people; and till this was obtained, he hoped that the exertions which had been made to get such distinctions abolished would be continued. Again, he contended that the colony had a complete right to control the expenditure of every farthing of money, for all the revenue of the colony came from their labour and from
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no other source. He begged leave to withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.
Mr. Secretary Stanley Mr. Secretary Stanley moved for the appointment of a Committee, to inquire how far the grievances complained of by the inhabitants of Lower Canada in 1828 had been redressed.
Committee appointed accordingly.

COMMUTATION OF TITHES (ENGLAND.)
Lord Althorprose to bring forward his Motion on the subject of Tithes. The noble Lord observed, that, as he should have to occupy the attention of the House for some time in the explanation of his details, he would not detain them by any prefatory remarks. The question of tithes was, certainly, one of the greatest importance to all connected with the landed interest; and though there might be much difference of opinion as to the actual right to tithe, he thought there could be none as to this,—that, whoever else might have the actual right to tithe, that right did not reside in the present landowners of the country. He might assume, therefore, that the opinion of the House would be the same; and, without going to abstract rights, he might assert, that as long as the Established Church required the aid of tithes, that Church had a claim to them prior to all others. He repeated, whatever opinions might be entertained on the abstract right, there was no one who would maintain that the right belonged to the owners of the soil.—The noble Lord here observed that his right hon. friend (Mr. Secretary Stanley) had just reminded him, that he was proceeding in rather an irregular course; for that the proper mode would be to move the subject in a Committee of the whole House. He had to apologise for his omission in this respect, for which he admitted he could not plead ignorance of the usual forms; but he would state—what was the fact, that he had forgotten it at the moment, owing to the unexpected length to which the previous debate had extended. He would now move the Order of the Day, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the Resolutions of which he had given notice.
The Order of the Day was read, and the House went into Committee.
Lord Althorpthen resumed: He was saying, that, whatever opinions might be held as to the abstract right to tithes,

819
there could, he thought, be no difference as to the question, that they did not belong to the owners of the land. Another position, of the truth of which he was satisfied from all the inquiries he had made on the subject was, that, in the present state of the country, the revenues of the Established Church in this kingdom were not larger than that establishment required for its proper maintenance. There might be, and no doubt there were, differences of opinion as to the mode in which the revenues of the Established Church should be applied; but he thought it would be admitted, that the amount of those revenues was not greater than the establishment called for. As to the policy of a Church Establishment, he would not enter into any argument, for he presumed, that the great majority of those whom he then addressed concurred with him in thinking, that an Established Church, as connected with the State ought to exist. He assumed that position, therefore, as one which would be admitted by the majority of the House. He had already said, that the landowners had no right to the tithes. They had purchased or inherited their property, subject to the payment of tithe; and whether members of the Established Church, or Dissenters from it, the same rule applied,—that they had purchased or inherited the nine-tenths of their property, the remaining tenth belonging to the Church. They could not, therefore, complain of that tenth going to other hands, for they had inherited, or made their purchases, subject to that condition. Indeed, he believed, that even the Dissenters made no complaint on the ground of the tenth. In dealing, then, with this tenth, and in any regulation as to the mode in which it was to be collected, it would be admitted, that, if the Legislature appropriated it in its present shape, they were bound to give a fair equivalent to those from whom the Legislature took the property. He knew it might be said, that if a fair equivalent were given for the tithe, it would be no relief to the occupiers of land. From this opinion he differed, for there was in the mode of collection a source of irritation, which would be got rid of in the plan which he was about to propose. The tithe-payer and the tithe-owner were now frequently brought into unpleasant collision, which might be avoided by a new mode of paying the tithes. This would also be a relief to owners and to occupiers
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of land; for it was well known that the occupiers of land, whose capital was expended in the cultivation of the soil, were often losers when the tithe was drawn in kind. An exchange of the mode of payment would, therefore, be a great relief to those classes. In many cases a composition for tithe had been entered into; but this was as he had been informed from many quarters, not entered into on equal terms between the parties; for, if the tithe were, drawn in kind, there was a loss to the occupier, and the amount of composition for such tithe was often greater than the occupier ought, in justice, to be called upon to pay. The plan which he was about to propose would give relief to the occupier of the soil, and be of use to the labourer, by giving to the latter more employment; for it was well known, that, in most instances, an increased quantity of labour would be employed on land, if it were not for the certainty, that, in proportion to the productiveness of that land, there would be more tithe to pay. The commutation of tithe, then, would be an advantage, not only to the occupiers of land, but also to the labourers, who would thus get increased employment. But when he spoke of commutation, he did not mean to say, that a full equivalent should be given equal to the full legal right of the Church to the tithe. He believed it would be difficult to ascertain that, and impossible to exact it. He would take, as the basis of commutation, the customary payment. That, he thought, would be a fair basis for the commutation for no one now took what was the legal right. Many circumstances increased or diminished the value of the tithe,—such as the distance from a market-town, the difference of soil, and the expense of cultivation; so that it was a matter of great difficulty to ascertain what was the value of the legal right. The best way, as he had stated to the House last year, was to take the customary value. He must here observe, that he still adhered to the principle of the measure which he had brought forward last year; but, while he adhered to the general principle, he would admit, that some of the details were open to strong objections; for that measure gave an advantage to those who had exacted the full amount of their tithe, in giving them more than was strictly their due, while it would have inflicted an injury on those who had been liberal to

821
their tithe-payers. Another objection to the plan of last year was, that it fixed a never-varying standard, according to the present value of the tithes, which was not fair to the owner of the land, when the value of the land altered against him. He thought, therefore, that the principle of a corn-rent should be abandoned. That principle was just while only the change in the value of money was contemplated; but it was not just if the value of the land itself underwent alterations; for these reasons he had determined to abandon both the principles of taking the value of individual parishes, and subjecting the land to a corn-rent in lieu of tithes. The principle which he meant to propose was, that tithe should bear a fixed proportion to the rent of land,—that was, that if the rent rose, the tithe should rise; and if the rent fell, the tithe should fall in the same proportion. He meant the real value of land, not the rent paid by the occupier, which might be open to fraud. He would also propose, that the tithe should be paid by the owner, and not by the occupier of land. He would add, that in few instances only an actual valuation of land would be necessary. The actual rent would, in most cases, be sufficient and satisfactory to both parties. He was aware that some objections would be made to this principle. It was true, also, that rent and tithe did not depend on the same principle; and, therefore, in some instances, the tithe ought not to depend on the rent. There was, also, a distinction to be made between arable and pasture lands. The tithe was considerably higher on the former, in proportion to the value of the land, than on the latter; but he thought there would not be much practical difficulty in arranging that; for they had a guide in a principle adopted in most enclosure bills, in which, when land was given in lieu of tithes, a larger amount was given for arable, and a smaller for grass land. But there was another distinction which presented a greater difficulty. It was, that where the rent was low, the tithe bore a greater proportion to its amount than where it was high;—that was to say, that where the expense of cultivation was great, and the produce little, the rent, compared to that expense, was necessarily small, while it was necessarily large upon land that yielded more at a less cost. The tithe, however, if the produce were the same in quantity, would
822
be the same in both cases; and would be consequently great in proportion to the less rent, and small in proportion to the greater rent. If, therefore, they endeavoured to have the tithe apportioned to the rent, according to the present amount of tithe, they would have to give a large amount of tithe where the rent was low, and a less where it was high; but it would be difficult to make any scale of this kind in an Act of Parliament. In fact, an attempt to accomplish that would so complicate the measure as to render it impossible of execution. He was aware it might be said, that the effect of the Bill apparently would be, to give advantage to the proprietors of the poorer soils; but he trusted that, when the whole of the provisions of the Bill were in the hands of hon. Members, they would not make that an objection. Before he proceeded further, it would be necessary for him to define what arable land meant, and in what senses he used the words arable and pasture when he sought to establish a distinction between them. He should not consider any land arable unless it had been broken up at some time within the preceding five years. It was probably known to many hon. Members then present, that he had circulated various inquiries on the subject of tithes, with a view to the present measure; he was perfectly ready to admit, that he had no right whatever to make those inquiries, but he had circulated them, knowing that people generally were very desirous for a commutation of tithes, and they might therefore be not indisposed to furnish the information he desired. That they would furnish such information he fully expected, and in that expectation he had not been disappointed. The answers to his queries had certainly supplied him with a great number of facts, though the information thus received rather enabled him to ascertain what he could not do, than afforded him any assistance in judging of what he could. The answers did not furnish him with the means of forming any scale for the apportionment of tithe to rent, founded upon the amount of rent actually payable; one fact, however, those answers placed beyond all question was, that the proportions subsisting between rent and tithes were most various, and that any attempt to apply the same rule in all cases could not fail to operate most unequally. The effect of a rule sup-

823
posed to be generally equitable would in some cases amount, as he had ascertained, to nothing less than an increase upon the existing tithes, equal, perhaps, to twenty-five per cent, while in others it would prove a diminution to that extent. He was, therefore, satisfied, that, it would be impossible to establish one unvarying rule for the whole country. He wished, therefore, to establish different proportions in different districts, and by grouping together those districts which were alike, and separating those which were dissimilar, ascertaining the average proportions in each, the object he had in view would be, he thought, fully accomplished. The course he proposed to adopt was, to fix a different proportion for each of the different counties of England and Wales, and the manner in which that object was sought to be effected he should endeavour to explain as clearly as he could; but he trusted that the House would extend to him no small share on that occasion of the indulgence which he was in the habit of experiencing at their hands, for the question was one of difficulty and complication, and, therefore, one which he found it not easy to lay before them as satisfactorily and as plainly as he could have wished. It was intended, under the Bill which he proposed to introduce, that an actual valuation of the land should take place in all the parishes in England and Wales, but that separate valuators should be appointed for each county, the object of such valuations being to ascertain the value of the land, both arable and pasture; at the same time the valuators should ascertain the payment on account of tithes during the last five years. When the land had been valued, and the amount of tithes ascertained (distinguishing the lay impropriations from the tithes payable to ecclesiastical persons), the sums were to be laid before the Court of Quarter Sessions, and by that tribunal the proportion subsisting between the rent and the tithes was to be ascertained, and likewise it would be the duty of the same Court of Quarter Sessions to determine what proportion of the burthen should be borne by arable, and what borne by pasture land, so as to preserve the relative pressure upon each in a condition as little altered as possible from its present state, and at the same time to maintain a proportion between rent and tithes as nearly similar as might be to the
824
previously existing proportion between them, the whole being calculated on the average of the county at large, and not confined to particular parishes. He could not conceal from himself that the whole of the plan might at first view appear exceedingly complex, but he looked forward with perfect confidence to its eventually allowing great facility of operation. The hon. Gentleman opposite, the member for Essex, when the same subject was under discussion last year, inquired how the tithe of hops was to be regulated? He was prepared, so far as the present plan was concerned, to give an answer to that question; and it would be, that hop gardens were to be considered as arable lands, but were to be subject to an additional payment of 10 s. an acre. Having made that one remark, he should now proceed with the remaining parts of the proposed measure, requesting the House to bear in mind, that the intended valuation was not to be considered final: on the contrary, he intended to allow an appeal to a barrister appointed for the purpose of reconsidering any decision which might occasion sufficient dissatisfaction to bring forth an appeal. He had now stated the general principle of his plan of commutation; and he begged to remind the House, that one of the objections to the Bill of last year was obviated by the present plan; for it was alleged against the former measure, that while it would confer an advantage on the harsh and severe collector of tithes, who exacted the uttermost farthing, it would deal unfairly with those whose mode of enforcing their rights was more lenient. Now, with that species of inequality his present measure would entirely do away; for no man would be enabled to derive benefit from the severity of his exactions, inasmuch as the calculations would be made upon whole counties; and thus the enforcement of extreme rights in one quarter would be countervailed by the leniency to be found in others, and equal justice dispensed. He was not insensible to the difficulties likely to arise from moduses and customary payments; but, he trusted, that when the Bill came to be examined, it would be found, that it did not interfere with the present existing rights under moduses. It would not be easy for him then to explain the manner in which that object was attained; but he was persuaded that the Bill would fully accomplish it,

825
and he requested, that hon. Members would suspend their judgment on the point until the Bill, in a printed form, came into their hands; he should, however, make this remark on the subject of moduses,—that he thought it would be inexpedient to introduce them into the general calculations for counties, but to let each individual modus stand as a separate case, without diminishing the whole amount for the county; and accordingly the Bill so provided. Thus was another of the difficulties of last year removed. The present measure would be likewise relieved from the disadvantages of a fixed annual payment of a specific amount, for that species of payment created a mode of dealing with tithes which he conceived to be most objectionable, for eventually any such fixed annual payment might absorb the whole value of the land; and he believed, that the plan which he then had in view was the only measure yet proposed which could be considered as guarding effectually against the total absorption of the value of the land by the introduction of a scale which should always maintain between the rent and the tithe a certain unvarying proportion. He felt, that the plan he was then laying before the House was still liable to the objection, that it did not purify the tithe system from its tendency to check the investment of capital in the improvement of land; but though he did not directly declare that tithes were to remain stationary, while land went on indefinitely improving, yet in effect he hoped to be able to obviate every thing material that might be found in the very plausible objection to which he was then alluding. If he did not in so many words declare, that the further employment of capital was to be tithe-free, he should, at least, afford every motive and facility for preventing its injurious operation upon the investment of capital, by giving to tithe-payers an easy and equitable mode of redemption. He would give to the owner of the land, whether he paid his tithe to the clergy or to the lay impropriator, the right of redeeming the tithe at a certain number of years' purchase. He proposed, that the payment for that redemption should be twenty-five years' purchase—a rate which he thought would be considered fair, as the owner of the tithe might invest the money at four per cent, while the land-owner would secure to himself the full
826
prospective advantage of any amount of capital which he might think proper to invest in the improvement of his property. The sum which might so be paid under that plan of redemption on account of clerical tithes would clearly be clerical property, and might, of course, without the least objection, be placed at the disposal of a clerical Commission. He should, therefore, propose that in every diocess, the Bishop, with such other Commissioners as he might nominate, should receive the amount paid for the redemption of tithes, and invest the same in land, or other securities for the future advantage of the incumbents of those livings whence the tithes were derived. In order further to facilitate redemption, he proposed, that when the payers of tithes did not find it convenient to discharge the whole sum at once, they might be at liberty to render it an incumbrance on their properties in the nature of a mortgage, but without giving the mortgagee the power of foreclosure—that it should be, in effect, a mortgage, bearing interest at the rate of four per cent, but redeemable at the option of the borrower. He could not deny, that there might be some difficulty as respected the redemption of lay impropriations, but he did not despair of getting over even that; at all events, this plan might be adopted, and he intended to propose it,—namely, that in such cases the payer of the tithe should lodge his redemption money in the Court of Exchequer, to be drawn thence by the person who should prove himself entitled thereto. Doubtless, that plan involved some legal expenses, but he did not see how difficulties of that nature could be obviated without incurring some expenses. He begged to assure the House, that he felt very sensibly the patience and indulgence with which they had listened to him, for he feared that he had but very imperfectly laid before them the features of his plan. He was aware that there must be considerable complication and difficulty in ascertaining the value of the tithe, but this once done, he felt assured, that there would be nothing to interfere with the simple and effective working of the measure. He requested it to be remembered, that the principle of declaring, that tithe should bear a certain proportion to rent was not new; it had been acted upon in Scotland, and there it had been adopted long on a principle far less advantageous to the landowner than that

827
which he proposed. It was well known that the great feudal proprietors had there possessed themselves of the greater part of the tithes of the lay impropriators, to whom one-fifth of the rent was payable. These tithes were allowed to be redeemed at the rate of nine years' purchase, subject, however, to a right on the part of the clergy of receiving the whole amount of theirs. It might, perhaps, be said, that the plan he had now propounded would not effect much change; to that he begged to reply, that he should feel much disappointed if the effect of it were not to lead to an extensive redemption of tithes; and should that anticipation be realized, as he had no doubt it would, then should he be enabled to contrast the altered condition of that description of property with its present state, and refer to the change as one well deserving to be called important and advantageous. He should move a resolution to the effect—first, that it was the opinion of the Committee, that it would be expedient that tithes should be commuted for a payment bearing a certain proportion to the rents; and secondly, that the payers of such tithes should be at liberty to redeem them at the rate of twenty-five years' purchase. The House would observe, that, however anxiously he might desire to relieve the class of religionists, called Quakers, from the bur-then of paying that against which they felt conscientious scruples, yet he had not been able to accomplish it in the present measure. He should have been glad to have removed the difficulty; but he could not see how he could have avoided making the commutation compulsory, and the redemption voluntary; and unless the redemption had been compulsory, it would have been impossible to relieve them without committing injustice. The House would also observe, that he had said nothing with respect to glebe lands. It might be, he thought, highly desirable to give ecclesiastical persons the power of leasing equitably for a longer period than their own incumbency; but he thought it could not with convenience be introduced into the present measure, however properly it might be made part of another. The noble Lord concluded by moving:—"That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the collection of tithes in England and Wales shall cease and determine. That, instead of tithes, the owners of tithe land shall pay a fixed proportion to
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the annual value thereof to the tithe owner; and that such proportion shall be ascertained in the several counties. Secondly—That all parties liable to such tithe may redeem the same by the payment of a sum of money equal to twenty-five years' purchase."
Mr. Baringinquired if the income of the Clergy was to be subject to Poor-rates?
Lord Althorpreplied, that the rent was a payment minus the Poor-rates, and that inasmuch as the commuted payment for tithe would be calculated on the rent, it would be obviously unjust to reduce it still further by a rate to the poor, for that would be making the Clergy pay the rate twice over.
Mr. Baringwas not surprised that the noble Lord found great difficulties in the way of settling so complicated a question—a question, which either directly or indirectly, involved the interests of all classes in the State—nor could he wonder that, under such circumstances, the noble Lord was not enabled to bring forward a measure, in the first instance, clear and satisfactory. As far as he was concerned, he wished to postpone forming any opinion on the noble Lord's Bill until he had seen what it really was. It might not be difficult to point out objections to any plan that might be submitted; but feeling as every body must feel, the extreme importance of settling this question, he hoped that hon. Gentlemen would not be very nice in looking at a measure, which whether they regarded it in a moral point of view, or in reference to its religious operation, or to its probable results on the agricultural interests of the country, was of the utmost importance. The noble Lord had stated, and he perfectly agreed with him, that the property of the Church, notwithstanding the prejudice that had gone abroad on that subject, was not more than enough for her decent and proper maintenance. Whatever opinions existed as to the propriety of its division, or of the amount of what were called the sinecures of the Church, it was fully agreed that the total amount was not more than was sufficient for the purpose. He was not aware whether there were any returns before Parliament which set forth the Revenues. It would, however, be highly desirable that such a Return should be made, not that it would at all affect the decision of the question, for even if it

829
were shown that a surplus existed, the landowner would still be bound to pay the tithe. The measure now proposed varied materially from that of last year, and certainly differed from what he expected after what appeared to be the general impression of the members of the Agricultural Committee of last year. The impression of that Committee, or at least the impression upon his mind was, that a valuation should be taken of the tithe in each parish, and that commutation should take place on the footing of such valuation, with such deductions as it might be deemed consistent with the interests of the Church to admit of. He hoped the noble Lord would look thoroughly into the measure, and weigh well all its details. He should not object to the Resolutions, pro formâ, but protested against being considered as bound or pledged by them. He regretted, too, that the measure was brought forward so late in the Session, as they had but a very short time to consider a measure of such great importance, more especially one which would be likely to occupy some considerable time in the other House, where the Clergy were more particularly represented.
Mr. Greeneconsidered that in agreeing to, the House should not be held concluded by, the Resolutions. The plan required much consideration, for in many instances they would find as much difference between one parish and another as between one county and another. He should be obliged to the noble Lord to state how he would arrange as to the proportion of payments to the lay Rector and to the Vicar. He was sorry, that he was called on, without due consideration, to affirm these Resolutions. He would much rather that the Bill should have been introduced in the first instance; and he certainly should not feel himself precluded from taking any course which it might hereafter appear to him expedient to adopt.
Lord Althorpsaid, it had been his object to avoid entering into details which could not yet be conveniently discussed, but which would be found to be provided for by his Bill. The Resolutions would not pledge any hon. Member to the Bill, nor even to its principles. With regard to the specific question of the hon. Member, he would say, that, upon ascertaining the amount of tithes paid, nothing could be more easy than to ascertain what propor-
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tion was paid to the Rector and what to the Vicar, and the proportions would of course be observed in the commutation.
Mr. Harveyfeared, that the noble Lord had contrived to complicate the excellent principle of his Bill with provisions of a very doubtful nature. The noble Lord had, he thought, involved himself in difficulties in consequence of his having had recourse to voluntary communications, whereas, if he had trusted to his own business-like mind, the measure which he had produced would have been much clearer and more satisfactory. What a complicated and expensive machinery was proposed by the Bill! They were to have valuers of counties, and valuers of parishes, and Barristers as arbitrators, and what not! If the noble Lord wished to arrive at the value of the tithes, whether of a given property, or of a whole county, or of a parish, let him apply to any auctioneer whose name figured in the columns of a newspaper, and he would put him in a mode of ascertaining the value of the tithes, great or small, arable or pasture, and the required number of years' purchase, in a very satisfactory manner, without any such complicated system of valuation. He apprehended that this Bill would be shipwrecked by its honesty. It did not recommend itself to any one branch of the community. The landlord would gain little by it. Few Gentlemen would be disposed to buy the right to tithes fixed at their full value, and estimated at twenty-five years' purchase. The community would gain no benefit, for it was not even intimated that they would get any surplus. The noble Lord took frequent occasion to repeat what had been so often said, that the tithes of the country were not more than sufficient for the maintenance of the National Church. Now, this was matter of opinion only. But why should it remain matter of opinion? Why should it not be matter of fact? A Commission had for some time been sitting, which Commission had acted in a spirit of great intelligence. They had framed a series of questions; and he never read any questions more searching than those which they had propounded. They were under four heads, directed to Bishops, Rectors, Corporations sole, and Deans and Chapters. There were from sixteen to twenty-five questions; and if honest returns had been made to them, the noble Lord must have in his posses-

831
sion a body of evidence not only highly valuable, but which would at once prove his assertion if it were correct, and improve the generally prevailing opinion that the Revenues of the National Church (the property of which was not then under discussion) were much more than was sufficient for its maintenance. Why should they at once close public expectation on this point? He hoped that this important question would remain no longer matter of speculation, but that the House and the country would be supplied with the information which would at once set it at rest. The noble Lord had truly said, that this was a matter in which the Dissenters took none other than a common interest, whether tithe-owners or tithe-payers; but he was apprehensive that when the Bill came to be more fully examined by those whom it affected, it would not be considered one of its recommendations that it protected the collection of the Revenues of the Church to their full and extreme value.
Sir Robert Peeldid not understand what power the noble Lord had to release him from the obligation he should incur, provided he assented to the Resolutions. The noble Lord proposed, that, in lieu of tithes, the owners of tithe-able land should pay a fixed proportion of the annual value of all land throughout the several counties, and that the said proportion should be ascertained by striking an average from the parishes of each county. How could the noble Lord say, that if he voted for that Resolution, he was not as much bound by it as by any other Resolution to which he gave his assent? By affirming it, he expressed his approbation of the principles contained in it—namely, that a commutation of tithes ought to take place, calculated according to the proportionate value which rent and tithe bear to each other, and also that the redemption of tithe should be permitted at twenty-five years' purchase. If this Resolution were not intended to bind the House, why insert in it any details at all? He would propose, as an Amendment, that, instead of the noble Lord's proposition, a simple Resolution be adopted, declaring it expedient that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the purpose of effecting a commutation of tithe in England and Wales on a fair and equitable principle. What was gained by affirming this Resolution as a matter of detail? But, independent of this objec-
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tion, the noble Lord had drawn up his Resolution so vaguely, that in point of fact, it would accomplish nothing at all. The noble Lord proposed, that the proportionate value of tithe to land should be ascertained in the different counties of England and Wales: the noble Lord also proposed, that a county should be a distinct territory with respect to tithes, and having ascertained the proportionate value that tithe bears to rent on the average in each county, the noble Lord proposed that that average should be applied to every parish and every estate throughout the county. Yet this principle, which the noble Lord was desirous of establishing, was in no way affirmed by the Resolution before the Committee. Why, then, enter into details at all in this Resolution, unless it was meant to be contended, that the Resolutions passed by the House of Commons were to be considered mere waste paper? If the noble Lord said, the House was not bound by this Resolution, he said what was not the fact. The noble Lord had thought proper, after six months' consideration, to abandon the Bill introduced last Session for the purpose of facilitating the commutation of tithes; and could the noble Lord, with any decency, call on him to give his assent at once to the principles of this Resolution? Before any one could feel justified in affirming this Resolution, there were several points that required much consideration. In the first place, what connexion was there between the payment of tithe and the territorial division of this kingdom into counties. He would venture to assert, that the practice as to the payment of tithe would be found to vary not only in different counties, but in different parishes in the same county. In some counties the proportion which tithe bears to the value of the land, or the rent of it, was much greater than in others. In Devonshire and Kent, for instance, the proportion which tithe bears to the value of land was much larger than in any other counties in England; but the effect of the noble Lord's plan would be to affix the proportion in those counties for ever. The noble Lord had slightly touched on moduses, and he could easily understand that, with respect to fixed payments, such as modus or composition, it might be possible to make some satisfactory arrangement. The noble Lord, however, had said nothing as to the distinction between great and small tithes. Was the land now

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subject to small tithes within a particular county, to pay its contribution hereafter, on the average of the land, subject to great tithes? Take the case of two adjoining parishes—the one subject to the payment of great tithes, the other to the payment of small tithes,—in what way would those two parishes hereafter contribute to the tithe-owner? Again, how did the noble Lord propose to deal with those cases where the title to tithe might be contested? Suppose a question to arise as to whether milk be subject to tithe, in what way would it be decided? The noble Lord said, that the sum the clergy were hereafter to receive, should not be subject to Poor-rates; at the same time it might be invested in the purchase of land, and on the same principle the land purchased for the Church ought also to be exempted from the payment of Poor-rates. Under these circumstances would there not be great difficulty in regulating the purchases; for it would be the interest of the Church to buy the land subject to the heaviest Poor-rates; and would there not be a difficulty in giving to the Church the possession of land now subject to Poor-rates, but which, on being transferred to the Church, would be exempted from Poor-rates? These were points which ought to be cleared up before any hon. Member was called on to affirm the principles contained in the Resolutions. He agreed with his hon. friend, the member for Essex, that it did not become the House to be too critical in examining the plan of the noble Lord, or to reject it at once, because it might appear complicated; but let not the noble Lord bind any man by a Resolution proposed to the House of Commons, for the first time, at nearly the hour of midnight; let there be a short interval to consider the principles contained in the Resolution. He heartily wished, that the proposition of the noble Lord might be received with satisfaction out of doors; but while he was anxious to come to a settlement of the question as speedily as possible, they should strive to the uttermost to prevent the arrangement being productive of any new mischiefs. He thought, that the noble Lord had a great deal too much under-rated the value of a voluntary settlement; and if it were once affirmed that there should be within each county an ecclesiastical corporation, with a Bishop at the head of it, to receive money as an equivalent for tithe, that would give great facili-
834
ties for a voluntary commutation of tithe, between the tithe-payer and the tithe-owner. If the Government would only assure parties, that they should not be subject to any expensive litigation,—if they appointed persons of honour and character as fair arbitrators, who should deal not with counties but with individual parishes, and attempt to effect an amicable arrangement; giving the power of redemption at a certain number of years, the precise term to be left to the parties themselves; the Bishop taking care to watch over the interests of the Church, the incumbent and the tithe-payer taking care of their own interest,—there would be facilities for a voluntary arrangement, which would tend more to a final settlement of this great question, than the Bill which the noble Lord intended to introduce. It was not his wish to say anything to prejudice the proposition of the noble Lord; all he asked was, not to be required to give his assent to the Resolutions before he had been allowed time to consider them.
Lord Althorpsaid, if the forms of the House would have allowed him, he would have been happy to have brought in the Bill at once; but it was necessary to propose in Committee the resolution on which his Bill was to be founded. With regard to the great and small tithes, a similar arrangement might be made with regard to them as that to which he had already alluded, with regard to moduses and fixed payments. A deduction pro tanto would be made from the proportion due from the land liable to small tithes. He would have no objection to re-consider that part of his proposition which went to exempt land, the property of the Church, from the payment of Poor-rates; and also to adopt words in his resolutions of a more general nature than those in which they were at present couched. The noble Lord proposed the following Resolution, in lieu of those he had at first moved:—"That it is expedient to effect the commutation of Tithes, and to abolish the payment of Tithes in kind throughout England and Wales; and, in lieu thereof, to substitute another payment to be made to the parties entitled to Tithes, and that the power of redemption should be granted to the payer of Tithes, at a certain number of years' purchase."
Sir Robert Inglisexpressed his satisfaction at the readiness of the noble Lord to alter the wording of the Resolution; and

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that the ill-omened words of the Irish Bill of last year, "that the payment of Tithes should cease and determine," were not employed upon this occasion. He would not oppose the Resolution, reserving to himself, at the same time, perfect liberty to deal, according to the best of his judgment, with any measure which the noble Lord might bring in, founded on his Resolution.
Mr. Humefelt confident, that the proposition of the noble Lord would not give satisfaction, either in or out of the House. The principle acted upon in Scotland was far preferable to the one now proposed, for there the tithe was an invariable rent. By the measure now proposed, if a man laid out 5l. or 10 l. an acre on the improvement of his land, the tax substituted for Tithe would increase with the improvement. This would be very unfair. The machinery proposed for carrying the measure into execution was unnecessarily complicated for so very simple an operation. In Belgium and in France, every acre was valued according to its quality; and sometimes there was a double valuation even on the same field, if it was of different qualities, and the valuation embraced five different qualities. A piece of land might consist of clay and loam. It would he unjust to call upon a man to pay more for that part of it on the improvement of which he had expended money. Before any proposition of this kind was brought forward, they ought to have the documents and returns before them. He would not at present consent to any thing more than some such proposition as that suggested by the right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth. When the House was enabled to come to a more correct judgment, by having all the necessary documents before them, the noble Lord himself, or some other hon. Member, might then introduce a Tithe Bill different from this.
Lord Althorpsaid, the hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood his statement. No such difficulty as that mentioned could arise; for, if a man laid out money on the improvement of land, he would, under the proposed measure, be at liberty to redeem the tithe, according to the rate of payment previous to the improvement. Suppose a person laid out 10,000 l. on improvement, he might redeem the tithe of the land so improved for the same amount it would previously have cost.
Mr. Humewould put the case of the market gardeners residing in the neighbourhood of London, from whom he had a Petition to present, in favour of Tithe commutation, and praying that, in future, the charge for Tithes should be an invariable one. Suppose the landlord of such tenants as these refused to agree to a commutation, how were they to be compensated for the money they might expend in improvement?
Mr. Estcourtthought it would be advisable to adopt a more simple Resolution than that proposed by the noble Lord. It appeared to him, that voluntary commutation would be the more desirable course. There were circumstances connected with the payment of tithes in some places, of which the noble Lord did not seem to be aware, and for which no provision had been thought of. There were districts, for instance, in some parishes, that were subject to vicarial tithes when sown with corn, while other parts of the same parish were exempt. He would suggest to the noble Lord, that, in any measure which might be introduced, it would be desirable to recognise the principle of voluntary commutation.
Lord Althorpsaid, that, after consultation with the best-informed persons, and after anxious consideration of the subject, they came to the conclusion, that the best course would be to settle the whole question at once. With respect to the case of the market-gardeners, mentioned by the hon. member for Middlesex, he could not see any difficulty in it; because, if the landlords did not redeem the tithe, the occupier would, of course, take that into consideration in his agreement for rent.
Sir Robert Peelwould suggest to the noble Lord, whether it would not be possible that some new principle of voluntary arrangement might be introduced. Unless it were previously determined by which party the expenses attending such an arrangement were to be paid, it would not make much progress. In so important a business as this, however, it would be no difficult matter to provide some means of preventing the inconvenience. If Commissioners were appointed, with power to call before them the parties interested, they might enable them to enter into voluntary arrangements for commutation, with a power of future redemption. It appeared to him, that a great progress might be made in commutation in this

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way, if a majority of parishioners should agree to it. The decision of that majority might be made binding on the rest of the parishioners, particularly if the minority was a small one. Did the noble Lord hope that he would be able to pass any Bill in the present Session? Last Session he seemed to be of opinion, that he would be able to get through a similar measure, but he did not. Now, if he could not carry it through in the present Session, he would recommend, that another year should not be allowed to pass without trying what might be done by voluntary arrangements.
Dr. Lushingtonsaid, the member for Colchester, and also the hon. member for Middlesex, expressed regret that this discussion was entered upon before ample information had been before the House. He also regretted it as much as those hon. Members did, so as far as regarded the Diocesans, the Prebends, and Canons. Whatever information could be expected by them had been already sent in. They had also obtained from the rest of the clergy as much information as there was any reason to believe could be obtained from them. It might appear strange, therefore, that these Returns were not sooner digested by the Commissioners. When the Returns were examined, it was found that, however desirous the Clergy might have been to give information, there were many cases in which the queries put to them were entirely misunderstood. The consequence was, that the Returns so made were in such a state as rendered it impossible to digest them in a satisfactory way. It became necessary, therefore, to obtain other and more correct information, and accordingly these Returns were sent back to the diocesans, for the purpose of having them corrected. He must admit, however, that the Commissioners did not certainly proceed with that expedition which he could wish as one of them. The Returns remained still in the hands of the Bishops. Having said thus much on this part of the subject, he could not sit down without saying, that he entertained the opinion expressed by the noble Lord. He felt confident, that when the whole amount of the revenue now received by the clergy of this country became known, it would be found that it was no more than was absolutely necessary to support them in anything like decent independence. If the income now arising from the
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Bishoprics, from Deans and Chapters, was taken from them, and applied in equalizing the revenue of the parochial clergy, the amount to each would not exceed what might be considered a just and fair reward for their services. He trusted, that before long, information would be in such a form before the House, as would enable them to form a correct judgment upon this point, and induce the House to come to the same conclusion. It would be premature now to enter into any discussion of the measure proposed: but he could not help at least congratulating the House on the uniform opinion that seemed to prevail, that a commutation had now at length become necessary. Two years back, there could scarcely be found in that House as many even as forty Members who could be brought to concur on any such principle. Now, however, the opinion on the subject there seemed to be as general as it was out of doors. He concurred fully in the observation of the hon. member for Essex, who expressed a hope that the measure would be effectual, though it was one of very considerable difficulty. He had for many years given much attention to the subject of tithes, and he knew from experience, that the better a man was acquainted with the subject, the more he knew of the history of tithes, the more strongly he would be convinced of the difficulty of so managing as to do equal justice. With respect to the actual valuation, let the estimated amount be taken, both in England and Wales; and the sum would be found of no mean importance to the settlement of the present question. He certainly agreed with many of the observations that had fallen from the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), and particularly with that which went to show, that a system of amicable commutation was good; and he thought that clauses to that effect might be introduced, so as to make it form part of the present measure. There were, however, many difficulties on this point, which made him still think, that compulsion would be, in many cases, necessary. If they could bring about a voluntary commutation on the part of the incumbents and tithe-payers, a great and salutary object would be effected. It would be highly advantageous both to the parishioners and clergy, and would create a mutual good feeling, besides conferring invaluable benefits on all the parishes

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where this voluntary system of commutation might be introduced. He therefore hoped that his noble friend (Lord Althorp) would introduce clauses into his Bill to effect so very desirable an end. Still, all the objections that could be made, when compared to this great measure, were completely insignificant, and, with skill and some trouble, he did not despair to see them got rid of.
Mr. Parrottthought, that the tithe owner ought not to be exempted from the payment of rates and taxes, and that a reduction ought to be made on the collection of small tithes as well as on great. With respect to a fixed commutation, he considered the suggestions of the noble Lord better than those of the hon. member for Middlesex. A fixed commutation could only be carried into effect in a country where the state of the cultivation of land was pretty nearly equal.
Colonel Woodwas decidedly of opinion, that the question could not be satisfactorily settled, without having recourse to parochial valuations. Some parishes had been lately valued in consequence of inclosures. The tithes in upwards of 2,300 parishes had been valued under Inclosure Acts, and in consequence, about one-sixth of the whole parishes of the country had commuted their tithes. Small tithes chiefly existed in parishes; and it was these tithes that were a perpetual source of angry feeling between the clergy and their flocks. He therefore considered that a county valuation was not sufficient to arrange the question. He would not at present enter into the details of the measure. The landlords of England were deeply interested in it, and he was glad that his Majesty's Government had taken up the important subject. The suggestion of the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) was valuable, since a great deal of good might be done by a voluntary composition of tithes.
Mr. Blamirewished to know, whether there entered into the noble Lord's plan any provisions to settle the present disputes about tithes, which existed between several parties?
Mr. Fryersaid, that it was impossible that any one could disagree with the present Resolution. He begged leave to read the Resolution, and would ask, what possible objection there could be made to it. He really could not see any occasion for all the debate which had taken place,
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and he thought, that the Resolution might be left to the consideration of the House, when the proposed Bill was brought before it? With respect to voluntary composition, if it had been adopted, tithes would have been long ago of themselves extinguished. But behind this question stood the lay impropriators. They wanted compulsion, but the clergy wanted none, as was proved by the petition from Stafford, presented that day to the House. The clergy were not, as usually represented, rapacious and seeking for filthy lucre. Though he was a Radical, he was willing to see the Church supported. The clergy were disinterested; it was the lay impropriators who were the men that exacted "more than the pound of flesh." The clergy would consent to commutation, and he considered, that the clergy ought not for tithes to distrain upon the tenant, but go to the landlord, and make him bring tithes to the Church-door, or oblige him to sell his land. This was a doctrine that sounded well. He was sorry, however, to say, that he did not agree with the clergy upon some points, and particularly upon that which related to Church-rates. He concluded by repeating, that they all ought to agree to the Resolution before the House, and that a Bill, or two Bills, ought to be brought in, founded upon it, which would tend to make the clergy happy and contented.
Mr. Finchdid not think, that there existed a general desire for the commutation of tithes, and, therefore, the plan of a voluntary composition could not succeed in large portions of the country where commutation was not desired, and where tithe was levied on an equitable system. With respect to that part of the measure which mentioned a twenty-five years' purchase, he thought it highly objectionable; and there were other details which would fall heavily on several counties.
Sir Thomas Fremantlethought, that the plan would not prove satisfactory in individual parishes, nor generally. To make commutation satisfactory in the different parishes the situation of each parish should be considered, and the plan framed so as to suit each separately. That the time granted for voluntary arrangements should be extended, was highly desirable; but if it was to be followed up by compulsion it would fail in its effect. He regretted that part of the plan which would throw odium on the Magistrates

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by fixing on them the arrangement of the value of tithes at the Quarter Sessions. He should like to know what was to be done in case of the rise of rent in land. Was it necessary that there should be a new valuation? In this respect he saw a great difficulty in ascertaining the amount of tithes.
Lord Althorp:The composition would be made according to a fair valuation, and in all cases in which the tithe-owner did not think there was a fair valuation of the land he might demand a new and fair valuation to be made, but at his own expense.
Sir Robert Peelwould suppose, that a rapid rise took place in the value of land in consequence of the neighbourhood of an extending town or the construction of a railway. He would suppose, that an acre of land now valued at 40 s. was raised in value to 40 l. for building on, or other purposes—would tithes increase in the same proportion?
Lord Althorp:Rent was not a fair test of the value of land, and, in such cases as that just mentioned tithe should undergo a new valuation.
Sir Henry Willoughbywould deny the connection which there was supposed to be between tithe and rent; for it was clear that land might pay tithe which never paid rent. It was well known that in several parts of England the land would only pay the burthens. [Sir Robert Peel: and vice versâ.] Just so; but this did not shake his doubts as to making rent the basis of any arrangement for the commutation of tithes. He would not agree in the justice of those sweeping anathemas which had been uttered by the hon. member for Wolverhampton (Mr. Fryer) against the lay-impropriators who had bought their present rights in an open market and at a fair price, in the same way that every other species of property had been purchased. He wished the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) would not forget the mode which he (Sir Henry Willoughby) had often recommended—that of commuting tithe for land. Being aware of the necessity of some measure, he would not object to the Resolution before the House as it was now shaped.
Mr. Rolfe:The hon. Baronet who had last spoken said, that no plan would prove satisfactory unless it embraced several modes of commutation. He so far agreed with the hon. Baronet, and it
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was for that very reason he felt disposed to support the noble Lord's measure. As he understood the noble Lord, it would afford every facility that could be suggested to a fair commutation. It also embraced within its scope every possible mode of commutation. It proposed to commute the tithe first of all into an annual sum proportioned to the rent or its ascertained value, either between the parties themselves or by Government, if they could not agree; and if the landholder chose, he might either redeem the tithe or the annual sum into which it was converted. There was necessarily some complication in the statement of the noble Lord, but when the measure was fully canvassed and understood, he had no doubt it would meet the sanction of the House and the general approbation of the country.
Mr. Frankland Lewishad but one observation to offer to the House. However feasible it might be in theory, he felt sure that in practice it would not turn out that poor lands paid more tithes than rich. In Wales poor lands paid less in proportion than the richer lands paid. There was a reduction in the amount of tithes on rich lands, and a sure increase on poor lands. He had long wished for some arrangement with respect to tithes, and he sincerely wished success to the measure of the noble Lord; but, at the same time, he could not disguise from his own mind that it would be attended with a variety of difficulties in its working.
Mr. Jervisobserved, that no notice was taken in the noble Lord's plan of tithes upon wages, upon eggs, pigs, and other things, which pressed very severely upon the poor. He thought that these things ought to be included in any measure on the subject. He had one objection to the mode of taking averages. A parish, or even a field, might be in two different counties, and the tenants might be obliged to pay one sum for one corner of a field so situated, and a different sum for another corner. A fluctuating system of tithes would check the improvement of land, by preventing the investment of money. To the measure itself, however, he gave his cordial assent.
The Resolution last moved was agreed to and reported, and leave given to bring in a Bill founded on the same.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord KING, from five Places in Ireland, for the Repeal of the Union, and against Tithes.—By the Duke of GORDON, from several Places, against any Alteration in the Corn Laws.—By the same, and the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Linlithgow, &c.,—for a different System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By the Marquess of STAFFORD, Lords ROLLE, WYNFORD, and DACRE, from several Places,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Lords KENYON and ROLLE, from Dartmouth, &c.,—for Protection to the Established Church.—By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Kirkford and Ifield, for Extending and Renewing the Labour-Rate Act.—By the Earl of TANKERVILLE, and Lords ELLENBOROUGH, KING, DACRE, and SUFFIELD, from a Number of Dissenting Congregations,—for Relief to the Dissenters.

SALE OF BEER ACT.
Lord Wynfordpresented a Petition from Yatton, complaining of the evils occasioned by the multiplication of beer shops, and praying for the repeal of the Beer Bill. He was anxious to know what the Government intended to do on the subject.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he had received so many applications of the same kind, as that which the noble and learned Lord had now made, not one-twentieth of which he could answer, that he conceived it necessary to state shortly his opinion on the subject. The reason why those persons were now disposed to take an anxious interest in this question arose from the circumstance of many of them being Magistrates, and most of them country gentlemen. The subject was certainly one of importance, and deserved to be considered. The plan which he had originally proposed to the House of Commons, with reference to beer-shops, had been most materially altered. The measure, as first introduced by him, proceeded on the principle, that beer should not be consumed on the premises. That measure did not succeed; and the House of Commons, disappointed in that respect, had addressed themselves to the consideration of a larger measure. A Committee was appointed, at the head of which was the late Mr. Calcraft. That Committee collected much evidence, and a great deal of valuable information; and it

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finally came to the conclusion to recommend the introduction of that Bill, which was ultimately carried. That Bill, which contained a provision allowing beer to be consumed on the premises, though it was moved that such provision should be struck out, was passed into a law. He thought at the time, that it would encourage or open the door to practices of a very injurious description. Nevertheless, after consulting Mr. Goulburn, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Calcraft, who were intimately acquainted with the subject, he was led to think that the Committee had come to a sound conclusion. No doubt could, however, be now entertained that considerable abuse had grown up under the system. One great cause which he believed had led the House of Commons to agree to the Bill was, that it was expected that it would tend to check the evils attendant on the then existing system of licensing public-houses. It was affirmed that licenses were granted, refused, or taken away, in many instances, rather with reference to personal feeling and interest, than to the good or bad conduct of the individual applying; and it was anticipated that that evil would be corrected. The result of the measure, however, had been to excite very numerous complaints—complaints that were not confined to one class of the community, but which came from the middle classes as well as from the country gentlemen and magistrates. He, however, was of opinion, that no precipitate measure should be adopted, but that a little further time should be given, to see if a remedy could not be found for those causes of complaint, and to ascertain correctly whether the existing Bill were so extremely pernicious in its effects as it had been represented to be. He knew that many classes of society cried out against beer-shops; but, in condemning them, one part of the question had been overlooked. Did those beer-shops do any mischief in cities, in great towns, or in towns even of moderate extent? He doubted it very much, unless they selected some town in which every second house was already an ale-house, some instances of which might be found in remote parts of the country. He did not think that any mischief was likely to result to a town where there were ten houses in which ale and spirits were retailed, if two houses were added where ale only was consumed. There was, however, a class of houses which the Magistrates and country gentlemen strongly pointed at, and with respect
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to which, as their information and experience were very large and extensive, their representations ought to be particularly attended to. He alluded to those beer-houses which were opened on the edges of commons, and in lonely and remote country places, where no such establishments were ever known before. He believed, that the number of such houses erected under the Act was very considerable, and he could not help thinking, that the whole measure had got a bad name in consequence of that part of it which encouraged the establishment of beer-houses in solitary and lonely places, where depredations might be secretly planned. It might be necessary, therefore, to resist the establishment of beer-houses in solitary and unfrequented places; although, with respect even to them, there might have been exaggeration. He was, however, disposed to believe, that to a certain degree the charge against those houses, and consequently against the measure, was well founded. He should now merely throw out the suggestion whether a modification of the kind to which he had alluded would not be proper—whether an effective visitation of those houses should not be provided for, at the same time that a due limitation should be preserved with respect to the power to be exercised by those to whom the visiting power was intrusted,
Lord Suffieldhad been intrusted with a petition, signed by all the Magistrates of the quarter sessions of the county of Norfolk, against the Beer Bill; and he must then say, that it was impossible for him to find language sufficiently strong to describe the extent of the evils, and the ramifications of the evils, which this measure had produced, and was producing in the rural districts.
Lord Kenyonsaid, he had expected that some measure would before this have been brought forward to correct this great and crying evil by the noble Viscount opposite. As the noble Viscount had not brought in any Bill, and as no other noble Lord had given any hopes of introducing a measure for the amelioration of the system, he would give notice, that if the subject were not taken up in that House by some one else, he would himself bring forward a motion relative to it. The policy on which the Sale of Beer Act proceeded, was to give the best article to the working classes, at the most reasonable rate. Now, he contended, that the proposed benefit might be gained, and all the evils be removed, if the hours during which it would be legal to serve

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individuals were placed under severe restrictions.
The Bishop of Londonhoped, that when their Lordships endeavoured to correct the evils resulting from the number of beer-shops, they would also turn their attention to the mischiefs arising from gin-shops, the multiplication of which had tended greatly to the increase of crime and immorality.
Lord Ellenboroughexpressed a hope, after what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, that either he or the noble Viscount (the Secretary of State) would turn their attention to this subject. It was one which he thought ought to be left in the hands of his Majesty's Government.
Viscount Melbournesaid, his Majesty's Government were most anxious to remedy any mischief that was alleged to have grown out of the present system. It was, however, a most difficult subject to deal with. He could not see how any effectual remedy could be proposed, short of the repeal of the present Bill, and a return to the old licensing system, which had been so much complained of. It was very difficult in this, as well as in other cases,—not to enact penalties that (was easy enough,) but to render those penalties effectual. With respect to the suggestion of his noble and learned friend, he feared that much difficulty would be experienced in discriminating between beer-houses in towns and villages, and in unfrequented places, so as to prevent them from being established in improper situations. From the information which he had received, he was inclined very much to doubt whether the evils complained of went to the extent which had been represented. The increase of intoxication was one source of complaint; but certainly it had increased much more in cities, where the Beer Bill had comparatively little effect than in small towns and villages; and he saw not how the evil could be checked, unless a great change for the better was effected in the morals of the people.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that the observations which had been made by the noble Viscount, convinced him the more, that some modification at least should be made in this measure. The mischief which it had produced was so great, as made it the bounden duty of Parliament to take the subject up. If the system were not effectually altered, it would utterly destroy the virtue and morality of the whole people. A discretion should be given to the Magistrates with respect to the establishment of
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beer-houses, directing them in their duties, at the same time, by the words of the Act of Parliament, so as to prevent any abuse of their power.
Petition laid upon the Table.

TRIAL OF OFFENDERS (LONDON.)
The Lord Chancellor, in moving the Second Reading of the Trial of Offenders in London and Middlesex Bill, observed that there was no necessity for him to make any observations on this occasion, as he only wished to move a Clause which would be open to consideration hereafter. That Clause would go to prevent the inconvenience which might arise, as to laying the venue, in consequence of the commission of offences in different counties. It was proposed that those parts of Kent, Essex, and Surrey, which the Bill comprised, together with Middlesex, should, for the purposes of this Act, form a metropolitan county, by which means one venue would do for all. He would take that opportunity of mentioning an alteration which he was inclined to propose to Parliament, and which would tend to equalize the business in Westminster-hall. It referred to the proceedings in the Court of Common Pleas, and he felt that it was due to his noble and learned friend (Lord Wynford) to say, that he, together with Sergeant Lens and Sergeant Shepherd, had always been of opinion, that such an alteration as he contemplated should take place. The proposition was, that all counsel whatever should be allowed to practise in the Court of Common Pleas, as well when the Court sat in Banco as at Nisi Prius; and that, as an equivalent, the sergeants should be allowed to hold briefs alone, and to open a case, which they could not do at present.
Lord Wynfordsaid, that he approved of the suggestion of his noble and learned friend, which he had no doubt would confer a great benefit on the public.
Bill read a second time.