Sitting of 5 July 1833

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. OLI-PHANT, an Account of the Sums of Money paid by each Borongh in Scotland to the Convention of Royal Burghs, during the last ten years, and how that Money is Expended by the Convention.—On the Motion of Mr. GALWAY, an Account of the Number of Mail Coach Guards appointed in Ireland, during the last two years.—On the Motion of Mr. SPRING RICE, the Number of Passengers by the Holyhead Packets, for six Months, to the 1st June, 1833, and during the same period in 1832: also the Amount of Duties received on Stage Carriages, from 5th December, 1851, to 5th May, 1832, and the same for the following year.—On the Motion of Mr. O'Dwyer, the Names of the Clerks of the Roads in England and Ireland, their Salaries, and Emoluments.—On the Motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, the Amount raised for the Church, and Poor Rates, and Tithes, by each parish in the City of London, during the last three years.
Bills, Read a first time:—Bank Charter; and Slavery Abolition.—Read a second time:—Public Works; Exchequer Bills.—Read a third time;—Parish Apprentices; Artillery Pensions.
Petitions presented. By Mr. O'FEARALL, from two Places in Ireland, against Tithes.—By Mr. G. W. WOOD, from Owners of Cotton Mills at Prestwick, against the Factories' Regulation Bill.—By Mr. M. ATTWOOD, from the Shipwrights of Whitehaven, against the Privileges of the Isle of Man.—By Lord ASHLEY, from a Number of Places, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill—By Mr. M. ATTWOOD, from Preston-cum-Sutton, in favour of the Lord's Day Observance Bill—By Lord TULLAMORE, from Falmouth and Penryn, against the Notaries Public Bill.

CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND).
The House immediately on meeting at twelve o'clock this clay, resolved itself into a Committee on the Church Temporalities (Ireland) Bill.
The debate on Clause 50 was resumed.
On the question of reducing the incomes of all future Bishops of Derry to 600 l a-year,
Mr. Shawsaid, that he considered it a matter of no great importance whether the future revenue of the bishopric of Derry was 8,000 l. or 6,000 l. a-year. He thought the principle of reducing the incomes of the Bishops to fixed salaries was in itself objectionable, although he would greatly prefer it, as a choice of evils, to a reduction of their numbers, which he could not too much deprecate; however, the Amendment of the hon. Member (Mr. Evans) involved no principle which the clause had not previously contained. It was a mere question of degree, between 8,000 l. and 6,000 l., and therefore he (Mr. Shaw) would not

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oppose it. He certainly had always understood, that whatever was to be the ultimate arrangement with respect to the revenues of the see, the present Bishop had taken it subject to that arrangement. While he could not agree in the extravagant praise which had been lavished on the Bishop of Derry's political creed, at the expense of the rest of the episcopal bench, by the hon. member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell), he had every respect for the personal character of that right reverend Prelate, and would not object to any peculiar advantage the present Bishop might derive from the operation of the Amendment, being only prospective.
Mr. Sheilasked, what was the amount of patronage to be added to the see of Derry in consequence of the other see merging into it. The Government apparently reduced the income of the Bishops, while they doubled their patronage, thereby affording them additional means of providing for their families. He thought the patronage of the suppressed bishoprics ought to be vested in the Crown.
Sir Robert Inglissaid, that much as be was opposed both to the principle as well as the details of the Bill, he was yet bound to state, that his Majesty's Government had shown a very disinterested feeling in one respect. It was evident, that they might if they pleased have transferred the patronage of the suppressed bishoprics to the Crown. Such a course would have rendered the measure so much the worse, that he (Sir Robert Inglis) could not but feel grateful to them for allowing the patronage to remain with the Bishops.
The Amendment was agreed to, and the clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
On the 89th Clause being read,
Mr. Finnproposed, that a clause should be introduced between 88 and 3;), to the effect, that in all cases in which the value of a benefice should amount to the sum of 500 l., the salary of the curate employed by the rector should not be less than 100 l., to be paid out of the said benefice.
Dr. Lushingtonsaid, that in point of practice the adoption of the clause would rather be injurious than otherwise to the class of persons whom it was intended to serve. He apprehended, that as the law stood the Bishop had a power of fixing the remuneration of the curates in his diocese. The rector would decline making any agreement with his curate if the income of his parish did not yield him a sufficient return to pay it; he would drag on in the business
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himself, perhaps with all the disadvantages of old age attending his exertions; and then the Church would be injured by its service not being properly performed, and the curates would be unemployed.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that the opinion of a Gentleman so closely connected with the Established Church as the hon. and learned Gentleman (Dr. Lushington) opposite must be received with respect. But he (Mr. Sheil) submitted to the hon. and learned Gentleman himself whether it might not be, that as objects might be sometimes so close to the eyes as not to be seen, so the hon. and learned Gentleman might be too close to the Church to take so telescopic and comprehensive a view of its interest as others who stood in a position of less proximity. Surely, if a rector received an income of 500 l., an educated Gentleman assisting could not be considered overpaid by a salary of 100 l. Surely 400 l. was quite as ample for the support of the rector as 100 l. for that of the curate. In the Scotch Church there were very few clergymen whose income came up to 400 l. a-year. Indeed he believed, that most Scotch clergymen would consider 400 l. a-year a very peculiar godsend. Now, although he dissented from the doctrines of that Church, he considered its pecuniary condition to be very apostolical. It was to be recollected, too, that the curate could marry; and they bad beard the other day a great panegyric upon the marriage of clergymen, and a censure upon celibacy. There was a long and pathetic expatiation from the other side of the House upon the wants and necessities of Gentlemen of education with large families, and of the most distinguished virtues, in the situation of incumbents; but the compassion of the other side did not extend to the curates. He thought it necessary to compel the rector to give 100 l. a-year out of 500 l. to prevent ecclesiastical pauperism, which was in Ireland a fruitful source of evil.
Mr. Secretary Stanleyopposed the introduction of the clause, as calculated to injure the curates. He thought the subject required to be introduced by a separate Bill, and would therefore state, that it was the intention of Government to introduce a measure next Session for the regulation of non-residents and pluralities, which should be equally applicable to England and Ireland.
Mr. Shamremarked, that if the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Dr. Lushington) was in too close proximity to the

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Church to see its perfections distinetly, the hon. and learned member for Tipperary was at too great a distance from it to sec them at all. As to the proposed clause, he objected to it for the sake of the curates themselves, whom it would materially injure.
Colonel Percevalsuggested, that the minimum of a curate under an incumbent of 500 l. a-year should be 75 l., in the currency of the country.
Mr. Finnsaid, that the amount of property in the possession of the Established Church of Ireland was sufficient to pay for the competent discharge of all its duties. The superior clergy were eulogized on all sides of the House; but he would ask, did they appoint those to benefices who actually wanted them? The curates were as well educated as the rectors, or even the Bishops or Archbishops; yet they had not a tenth of the income of the one, or a hundredth of the income of the other. Besides, competence was not an essential qualification to their appointment to a living; on the contrary, he knew few who had been appointed for other than political reasons, or through the influence of political connection. He also knew, that many curates in Ireland were driven to do things unbecoming their character as clergymen and gentlemen simply to obtain the mere means of existence. In making these observations be was solely influenced by a feeling of justice and charity; and he was well aware that they would petition, individually and generally, but that they were afraid of their diocesan.
Sir Hussey Vivianbelieved, that there were numbers of curates in Ireland in great distress, but that arose from the tithes being paid to lay impropriators in place of the incumbents. He, however, thought the present clause would do them more injury than good.
The Committee divided on the Amendment—Ayes 35; Noes 130; Majority 105.

List of the AYES.

Baldwin, M.

Fitzgerald, T.

Bernard, hon. W. S.

Grattan,

Bellew, R. M.

Gully, J.

Blake, Sir F.

Hall, B.

Browne, D.

Handley,

Browne, J.

Hulse, J.

Chapman, M. L.

Lloyd, J. H.

Chichester, Lord A.

Lynch, J.

Dykes, F. L. B.

Macnamara, F.

Faithful, G.

O'Brien, C.

Fenton

O'Connell, Morgan

Fitzsimon, C.

O'Dwyer, A. C.

Finn, W. F.

Perrin, L.

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Roe, R.

Vigors, N. A.

Sheil, R. L.

Walker,

Stawell, S.

Wallace, R.

Sullivan, R.

White, S.

Turner, W.

Williams,

On Clause 114 being read,
Mr. Shawsaid, the clause had stood 110 in the last copy of the Bill—and he had to move the Amendment of which he had given notice. The power conferred by that clause, of suspending incumbents where service had been intermitted for the last three years, he always regarded as one of the worst features in the Bill; and the reason he had reserved his Amendment for the present stage was, that he so much deprecated the whole of the clause, he would not move an Amendment until he had first taken the sense of the Committee upon omitting the clause altogether. He had already argued the question at much length, and he would not detain the Committee further than to remind them, that in the last thirty years four times as much had been effected in providing for the celebration of divine service according to the forms of the established religion in Ireland as in the preceding century. In 1800, there must have been 700 benefices where service had not been performed for the three years preceding, for there did not exist the means of its performance; since then, 500 churches had been built, and he supposed about 100 places of worship licensed where there were not funds for building a church. This progressive and rapid improvement bad left but about 100 benefices unprovided. The influence of the Protestant established religion was extending itself over the whole country, and, in three years more, if uninterrupted in its course, would perfectly cover it. The Bill before them cut off half of the episcopal bench, under whose au-spices and close personal superintendence the process of advancement was taking place; even the Commissioners who were substituted for them were to be directed, by the clause under consideration, to cut a trench between the cultivated district and that which still remained unimproved, (being in the proportion of but one-seventh to what had been accomplished), and there to stay the benefits and blessings which it was but reasonable to infer would soon have been supplied to every part of Ireland. This was the proposition of those who called themselves the friends of the Church. If such friends had proposed a similar law twenty years ago, it would probably have I kept half instead of the fourteenth of the

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benefices unprovided with places of worship. He did not deny that it was an evil that there should be any benefice having an incumbent and not having service—but the way to remedy the evil was not to take away the incumbent, but to supply the service. He maintained, and he had on the former discussion proved by returns, that where there were churches built and divine worship established, congregations were not wanting. He would move, as an Amendment, "that in case the Commissioners suspend the appointment of a clerk to any benefice where divine service shall have been intermitted for throe years, the emoluments of such benefice during the vacancy shall be applied for the purpose of providing the means of the celebration of divine service within such benefice."
Lord Althorpthought the better way would be to leave the application of such fluids to the discretion of the Commissioners. If the proposition should be adopted, it would tie up the Commissioners to the appropriation of the funds in a specific manner. In cases where no service had been performed for three years the probability, was that it had arisen from there being no Protestants in the parish. In such a case it was too much to apply the funds to the purposes suggested in the Amendment, and the Commissioners were not precluded by the clause as it stood from the application of the funds in the manner suggested in case there were Protestants in the parish.
Mr. Lefroysaid, that the clause provided for the cure of souls, and the noble Lord could not therefore go on the assumption that there were no Protestants in the parish. He would appeal to the noble Lord's candour and fairness whether it was just that the funds arising out of a parish should be applied otherwise than in providing for the spiritual wants of the parishioners. He should support the Amendment, and suggest that the objection of the noble Lord might be met by the addition of the words "except in parishes where there were no Protestants."
Mr. Secretary Stanleythought the Amendment was quite unnecessary. If the want of churches was complained of, the Commissioners were already provided by the Bill, with means to interfere; but the Amendment would tie them down to supply that which was neither wanted nor desired in parishes where there were no Protestant inhabitants.
Mr. Finchsupported the Amendment, and maintained, that as Protestantism was
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increasing in Ireland, churches ought to be provided. He said this from inquiries he had made, the result of which was, that since the year 1807, in the diocese of Cork alone, no less than twenty-six churches had been built. It was notorious, that if a congregation was sought to be collected in this country, the first thing to be done was to build a church for their reception. The church of Rome had already its missions out, endeavouring to proselytize the country, and he should support the Amendment.
Mr. Wardsaid, the hon. Member (Mr. Shaw) boasted much of the new churches and the number of places of worship the Bishops had established. He wished to know if there were Protestants to attend them? for it was easier to build churches than to find congregations for them.
Mr. Dominick Brownesaid, he was satisfied that of late the Protestants had much decreased in Ireland. He admitted, that several hundred new churches had been built, but he was certain that many of those churches had no congregations. He himself knew parishes in Galway and Mayo in which there were only two Protestant families—those of the rector and clerk. He was ready to support the Church as far as the Protestants required it, but would not go one shilling further; and he should therefore oppose the Amendment.
Mr. Shawsaid, that if his hon. friend (Mr. Dominick Browne) had taken as much pains to ascertain the fact as he had, he would have learned that generally in the new churches that had been built there were congregations averaging from three to four hundred. He had, without any returns being moved for, and merely through some friends who were casually in London, ascertained that such was the result in three or four dioceses. He had before stated the minute details of these cases to the House; and in the diocese of Tuam, which his hon. friend ought to know, the establishment of these new places of worship (more frequently in licenced houses than in churches, owing to the poverty of the parishes) had been attended with the most beneficial effects. It was not of new churches but new congregations (which with attention were sure to follow them) that the opponents of the Church were so much afraid.
Mr. O'Connellwas surprised the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Shaw) should go to the Quixotic length he had done. He had first found new churches, and since had found new Protestants, to the amount,

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according to the hon. and learned Gentleman's average, of at least a million. Now that it was found that preaching would not do, it was thought by the hon. member for Stamford that building churches would answer in increasing Protestants. That was indeed "setting traps to catch Popish rats." But would the hon. and learned Gentleman seriously tell the House that Protestantism was increasing in Ireland?—["yes," from Mr. Shaw.] Well then, after that he had done.
Major Macnamarasaid, that he could state that in one district of the county of Clare there was not a Protestant in the whole barony, and much less in any of the parishes in that barony.
Colonel Percevalcould not permit the speech of the hon. member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell) to impose upon the House. He knew little of those parts of Ireland which heretofore returned the hon. and learned Gentleman to that House; but if his statements referred to Dublin, or to those parts of Ireland with which he was acquainted, he must be permitted to say, that they had more of good humour than of fact to recommend them. He could state, that in places where churches had been built since the Union, the average number of Protestants attending exceeded 300. The hon. member for Mayo (Mr. Dominick Browne) took upon himself to answer for Connaught. He (Colonel Perceval) had heard of persons assuming to themselves the right of representing all Ireland, and he supposed that the hon. Gentleman wished it to be imagined that he was the representative of all Connaught. Now he (Colonel Perceval) had the honour of representing zone of the counties in the kingdom of Connaught, and he would inform the hon. Gentleman that he was misinformed with respect to the Protestant population in that district. He could state, that in Sligo every church was attended both by congregations and communicants. In the parish in which he (Colonel Perceval) resided, the church, within his own recollection, had been enlarged, and it was now much too small for the congregation. In all the churches in his neighbourhood, the number of persons attending divine service was much more than the buildings could accommodate.
Amendment negatived. At three o'clock the House adjourned and resumed at live. The Committee was then continued.
On Clause 138 being put,
Lord Althorpsaid, he had an alteration to propose in the terms of this clause. As
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it originally stood, it stated that the Commissioners to be appointed under the Act should inquire respecting, and ascertain the full improved yearly value of the lands and premises cited in the Bill, according to the usual mode of estimating and ascertaining the same. It was further stated the com-missioners were empowered to deduct 4l. per cent from the value of the fee-simple and inheritance of the land referred to, as a kind of bonus to the lessee; but as the valuation was, according to the amendment agreed to the other night, to be taken according to the custom in the respective dioceses, and as this alteration would occasion a diminution in the amount of the valuation, it was thought advisable to leave out the words in the clause which guaranteed the reduction of four per cent in the amount of the value of the fee-simple and inheritance. The valuation not being required according to the original mode, the bonus consequent on that valuation was, of course, judged unnecessary.
Mr. O' Connellsaid, it was perfectly clear that in a great majority of cases the proposed alteration would operate most unjustly. Where ornamental improvements had been made, their value was not to be estimated, but what would be the case with the poorer tenants? Their interests would be calculated upon the full value, and they were to lose the bonus of four per cent because another class of tenants were to have the benefit of the custom. He was opposed to the alteration, because he conceived it was calculated to relieve the wealthy tenants alone, while it placed the poorer class of tenants in a worse situation than before. The clause as it stood had given great satisfaction to the Irish people, and now the government were about as usual to throw cold water on the feeling of satisfaction which they had engendered by the provision as it originally stood.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman showed distinctly that the alteration made in a previous Committee was a wrong one. The Act made the lease perpetual, and that he considered a sufficient bonus in itself. He should be sorry that great dissatisfaction should be felt in Ireland upon the subject as he really felt obliged to persist in deducting the bonus.
Mr. O'Connellasked whether because the House did an act of justice towards one class of tenants they were to do an act of injustice towards another class?
Sir Robert Ingliswas sorry to have differed

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from the first on this clause from his hon. friend (Mr. Shaw), and he thought the bonus ought not to be given.
Mr. Aglionbysaid, that taking away the bonus would be an act of injustice towards the poorer tenantry. All that was required by the clause as it stood was, that the tenants should have the benefit of the existing custom. It was plain that it was the custom in some dioceses to charge for the improvements, and in others not.
Mr. George Youngsupported the clause as it stood, and hoped the noble Lord Would not press the Committee to a division upon the Amendment.
Mr. Shawsaid, there were two distinct questions—first, whether the bonus of four per cent should ever have been given to the tenants; and next, whether, at all events, having been given, it could then be withdrawn, in consequence of what he believed sincerely to have been but an act of strict justice being done to tenants—for he must ever maintain that it was no more than justice that a man should not in a purchase from the Commissioners have to pay over again the value of a building, or ornamental improvement, which had been undertaken upon the faith of the Bishop not valuing it in the calculation of his renewal fine. As to such improvements, he denied that it had been the custom to charge them in any diocese. Whether the noble Lord was right or wrong in first granting the bonus he would not say; but he certainly thought it ought not to be introduced on the ground the noble Lord had put it.
Lord Althorpsaid, he felt the force of the arguments adduced against his Amendment; and as it appeared that it would have the effect of giving a bonus to the richer tenant, which was not given to the poorer, he should withdraw it.
The clause was ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The remainder of the clauses were agreed to—the House resumed, and the Report was received.

FACTORIES REGULATIONS.
The Order of the Day for the Committee on the Factories Regulation Bill, was read.
On the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Lord Althorprose, to call the attention of the House to the situation in which the measure just brought before them stood, and to suggest what appeared to him the most reasonable course to be pursued, in order to arrive at the passing of the measure during
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the present Session in such a manner as might render the adjustment of the important question under discusion satisfactory to all parties interested in its settlement. In the first place, he had to state, that from some delay, for which he was unable to account, the large and voluminous Report which the Commissioners had laid on the Table of the House had not as yet been placed in the hands of Members. That was a circumstance which in itself, unforeseen and unexpected, he thought would go no little way in support of the suggestion it was his intention to offer; for certainly he felt that after having agreed, with mature consideration, not to proceed with the present measure without adequate information, and after having appointed a Commission to institute inquiries with a view of obtaining that information, it would be rather inconsistent in the House, in the face of such resolve, to proceed in legislating in a Committee of the whole House, without having had time to examine, or, indeed, even to read, that Report, and much less the voluminous evidence with which the Commissioners had supplied them, the want of which had caused the postponement of the measure. It was not, however, on such a basis that the course which he meant to suggest was founded. Looking at the nature of the noble Lard's (Ashley's) measure—looking also to the details of that measure, and considering the important effects which their adoption would have on the general manufacturing interests of the country—it did appear to him that it would be most inconvenient, if not very hazardous, to attempt to pass such a bill in the first instance through a Committee of the whole House, and that such a mode of dealing with the question would be most unlikely to lead either to a satisfactory conclusion, or to the passing of the measure under any circumstances during the present Session. Such being his opinion, he had naturally turned to the consideration of what plan it would be advisable to adopt in order to meet both these objects. The result of that consideration was a conviction that there was no other course to be pursued, but to refer the Bill at once for the opinion of a Select Committee, intrusted with such powers and armed with such instructions as, in the opinion of the House, would prevent the occurrence of any material delay in the framing of their decision. If be thought that the adoption of such a course would tend to cause such a delay as would prevent the settlement of

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the question in some shape or other during the present Session, most certainly he would not think of proposing it; but, when he reflected that the Committee would only have to decide upon the Bill with reference to certain specific instructions, he did not think the adoption of his suggestion could be attended with any considerable delay, much less the protraction of legislative interference until the next Session. On looking into the question with reference solely to the noble Lord's Bill he was free to confess that he viewed it with Considerable apprehension. In the first place, he could not look upon it without being strongly impressed with apprehension, that if the Bill should pass the Legislature in its present form, its effects might be found very disastrous in the manufacturing districts. Should its effect be (and he feared it was but too reasonable to apprehend it might be) to increase the power of foreigners to compete in the British market, and so to cause the decline of the manufacturing interests of the country, how, he asked, would it be thought of? Would not, on all hands, a measure attended with such results be denounced? So far from a measure of humanity, it would be one of the greatest acts of cruelty that could be inflicted. It was well known that the population of the manufacturing districts was only supported in consequence of the amount of labour and the success of manufactures; and if any measure should pass Parliament, by which that amount of labour might become diminished or that success impaired, the inevitable result would be the proportionate misery and starvation of such manufacturing population. With regard to the details of the noble Lord's Bill he had likewise a few observations to offer. Generally speaking, he felt called upon to avow that he did not think the measure as it stood was one which ought or could with safety pass the House. He was quite willing to admit that, with the present feeling of the country, and with the excitement which so generally prevailed, it was necessary that Parliament should interfere and legislate to protect children, properly so called, from being treated with undue severity; but when the measure of the noble Lord was considered—when the provisions which he proposed to introduce respecting the age of the children were weighed—he did think, that he (Lord Ashley) was carrying his protection to too great lengths, and that under his provision adults would be unnecessarily deprived
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of making the most of their only property, their labour. That children of nine, ten, or eleven years of age, who had no choice of their own as to the duration of their labour, should meet with protection was a self-evident proposition; but to say that that protection should unnecessarily extend to persons who were adults, and consequently the masters of their own time—and he contended such would be the effect of the noble Lord's Bill—was to broach a proposition to which he hoped Parliament would never assent. Protection should be afforded, but it would only be protection when applied to those who had not the power of deeiding for themselves, and on that principle he was free to confess he did not think that prohibition applicable to the ages to which the noble Lord in his Bill proposed applying it. The alteration which he (Lord Althorp) desired to see in the Bill was the insertion of a clause by which the protection to children, properly so called, would be increased, while adults, who were in a state to decide for themselves, should be left unshackled and unrestricted With that view, should the House decide upon referring the Bill to a Select Committee, instead of pulling it through a Committee of the whole House, he would suggest, that it should be an instruction to such Committee that children who were within their fourteenth year should not be subjected to labour longer than eight hours a-day. With regard to children beyond that age it was not his wish to alter the laws, at all events with regard to children employed in cotton-mills; but it might well be a question, whether the laws by which the labour of children in cotton-mills were at present regulated might not very properly be extended to all factories. He must, however, mention that there was one branch of manufacture in which children were employed in great numbers; he meant the silk manufacture which had not been inquired into. It was, indeed, well known, that the labour in those factories was less severe and less unwholesome than in others; hut still, as they required the assistance of a large number of children, he thought it might be advisable if the Committee were instructed to consider whether protection ought not to be extended to children in silk as well as in other manufactories. In any legislation upon the present subject there was, it was scarcely necessary for him to observe, one great and paramount object to be kept in view—namely, the promotion of education.

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It must be evident that as children in factories were kept constantly employed throughout the day, it was impossible they could acquire education, and it should Le therefore seen that in any measure on the subject, care was taken that an interval at a seasonable period of the day should be reserved for their education. The main difficulty in all such measures as the present was to provide means for carrying the law into effect. It was notorious, that although in cotton-mills laws were in force for restricting the hours of labour, they were seldom, if ever, carried into effect. Now, in the Bill of the noble Lord, there was no provision for that purpose. If a restriction was to be made it should be accompanied with adequate powers to enforce its observance; for unless the law were enforced, those who obeyed it would have to compete at a great disadvantage with those who managed to evade it. It was, therefore, his intention to propose an instruction to the Committee to ascertain the expediency of a system of inspection throughout the mills where child labour was used. He had now, he thought, stated all the objects which a bill having in view fair protection to the children ought to embody; and if the House proceeded to legislate upon those objects he thought they would be doing all that could be expected of them. If they were to go further and declare, as the noble Lord (Ashley) wished, that for the effect of any accident in a mill which caused death the penalty of manslaughter should attach to the masters upon the representation of a Coroner's Jury, they would place the masters in such a situation as could not be tolerated. The noble Lord had gone out of his way in this instance, for, by the law as it stood, any culpable negligence in this respect was a crime. To say, then, that a Coroner should issue his warrant to apprehend a manufacturer, not only did not afford him adequate protection, but was even worse than absurd, for it was unjust. He would not go at any greater length into this question, but would conclude by moving, as an Amendment to the Motion of the noble Lord—" That the said Bill should be referred to a Select Committee, to whom it should be an instruction to make provision, 1st, that no child who had not entered upon its fourteenth year should labour more than eight hours a-day; 2ndly, for securing opportunities of educating the children during the times they were not employed; and 3rdly, that a system of inspection be enforced throughout
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the factories so as to ensure the execution of the above provisions."
On the Question being put,
Lord Ashleyobserved, if there was any inconsistency in bringing on the measure to its present stage without having the Report of the Commissioners in the hands of the House he was not culpable. From day to day had he been put off by the noble Lord, until he found himself placed in that situation that if he did not endeavour to bring the question under discussion, he must give up all hopes of legislating upon it during the present Session. With regard to the proposition of the noble Lord, he had only to observe, that if the noble Lord would affirm at once the preamble of his (Lord Ashley's) Bill, he was at perfect liberty to do what he pleased with it, either in Committee of the whole House or in Committee up-stairs. If the noble Lord, however, refused to do so, he should resist his proposition, for he was convinced if it once reached a Select Committee without an admission of its principle, it would be either detained there till the end of the Session, or sent back so completely altered that he should find himself unable to recognise it. As far as the noble Lord's proposition related to the inspection of the mills with a view of seeing the law enforced, he begged to say, he entirely concurred in it; and if not afraid of giving additional offence to the opponents of his measure, provision for such an inspection would have formed part of his Bill. Nor would he make any objection to that part of the proposition which related to confining the hours of labour for young persons under fourteen years of age to eight hours a-day. There was another part of the noble Lord's proposition which God forbid he should object to; namely, that which went to provide competent education to the children. The great moral defect in the existing condition of society arose from the want of any provision for the education of the lower orders; and he only wished that the noble Lord, availing himself of his influence as Minister of the Crown, would push forward and provide suitable education for all classes of children among the lower orders, whether employed in factories or otherwise. So far he was disposed to concur with the noble Lord; but when the noble Lord went on and spoke in terms of reprehension of the clause relating to accidents occurring through the use of machines, it was imperative on him to raise

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his voice in support of his measure. Had the noble Lord, when he thus spoke in reprehension of the clause relating to machinery offences, read the report of his own Commissioners? If he had he would have found a very stringent, and a very conclusive passage on the subject, recommending the adoption of precisely that punishment on the manufacturer, which the clause so reprehended by the noble Lord went to enact. So convinced was he of its necessity, that so long as he had any thing to do with the Bill, he never would consent to its withdrawal. He confessed he was utterly at a loss to conceive why the noble Lord had not stated the propositions which he had just made on some previous stage of the Bill. The noble Lord certainly might quite as well have stated them on the second reading, and thus have saved the loss of a considerable time, unless indeed his object was to protract all legislation upon the subject to the next Session of Parliament. Why his Bill should have been allowed to arrive at a Committee, and then scouted out of the House like a mad dog, to be cured by a Committee up-stairs, he confessed he did not see. He repeated, however, that if the principle of his Bill was now affirmed, he would have no objection to the proposition of the noble Lord. To the proposition respecting children within their fourteenth year he would make no objection, but he would hold to his own proposition with regard to children beyond that age. There was one point connected, however, with the noble Lord's proposition, which he would be glad to have more definitely explained. Children until they came within their fourteenth year, were to work but eight hours a day. Now did the noble Lord mean that a child on its thirteenth birthday, should only have to work eight hours; but on the day after, when he was in fact but thirteen years and a day old, his labour was to be at the mercy of the manufacturer? In short, were children of thirteen years and a day old to be deprived of the protection of the noble Earl's measure? If such was the intention of the noble Lord, he Lord Ashley) begged to ask him did he bear in mind that a great portion of the children for whom they were about to legislate were females, who, at the very period of their lives that the noble Lord proposed to exempt them from protection, would most stand in need, not only of corporeal rest, but of moral aid? Was the House, he asked, prepared to inflict on young females only thirteen years of age, a period of labour
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varying from twelve to fourteen hours a-day? The whole course of the medical evidence taken by the Commissioners, particularly the evidence of Mr. Elliotson, went to show, that it was absolutely horrifying to impose on young females a period of labour of more than ten hours. In fine, there was no period of a female's life in which she required more care, attention, and protection, than at that very age at which the noble Lord required that that care, attention, and protection, should cease. Indeed, until the House, by a solemn vote, gave proof of the fact, he would not believe that there could be found twenty men who would affirm Such a proposition. Did the noble Lord think that by his proposal he would give satisfaction? Did he for a moment' suppose that he would reconcile conflicting opinions? So far as he could speak, instead of giving satisfaction it would spread throughout the country uncontrollable disgust. [An Hon. Member: Strong language.] Yes, his language was strong, but not stronger than the case deserved. He begged, however, to assure the hon. Member who had been pleased to interrupt him that he would, either in that House or out of it, use such language, when speaking of the present or any other subject, as most pleased him. To resume, however, he begged to say, that if the noble Lord sought to obtain the confidence of the country on the present occasion, the only means was, to discuss the question before the representatives of the people at large, and not to expose it to the secret decision of a chance Committee. Moreover, the opinions of the Report wore not the unanimous sentiments of the Commissioners. How they got blended into two sets was more than he was aware of; but he saw that Mr. Stuart was for eleven hours, Mr. Drinkwater for from eight to ten, and Mr. Power wished a difference to be made between the males and females as to time of working. Some of them had no fear as to foreign competition, others had; but how did this topic get into the body of the report? The idea of thirteen years and one day putting girls out of protection was not to be tolerated; but if a time was to be fixed, let it be eighteen years. Then as to having two sets of workmen, all the evidence declared it to be impracticable, though the Commissioners were in favour of it. They could not be procured by the manufacturer, and the injury to the children and their parents, by the cutting down of wages, would render them more miserable than they were even

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at present. He implored the House to enter upon this subject publicly, and not to allow it to be referred to any private tribunal. There had been quite enough of secrecy in the progress of the Bill already and he did, therefore, protest against its being sent up to a Select Committee.
Mr. Jerviswas of opinion, that the noble Lord (Althorp) had from the outset admitted the principle of the Bill, which was simply the necessity of some legislation, and, therefore, he would suggest to the noble Lord (Ashley), that so far his opposition to the Amendment was unnecessary. He thought if the Bill was at all to be referred to a Select Committee, that it would be much better not to fetter such Committee with instructions, but leave it for them to decide upon a full investigation of the Commissioners' Report and the evidence, what description of measure was called for. He for one begged to say, that if eight hours' labour was to form a principle of the Bill he would not assent to it.
Sir Samuel Whalleyobjected to referring the Bill to a Committee, because he conceived that there was already ample evidence for the House to proceed upon. The late Commission was most uncalled for, and unjustifiable, as a wanton and useless expenditure of public money, without effecting any practical results. This was not a way of dealing with a measure like the present, on which so much popular feeling was interested. And it appeared to him, moreover, that the Commissioners went to their work more as partisans to make out a case for the manufacturers, rather than as searchers out of truth. The manner in which they had conducted their proceedings, too, was most blameworthy—he meant with reference to their unconstitutional and un-British practice of taking evidence with closed doors. He did not believe, that this Bill of the noble Lord would effect the objects he had in view, unless the limitations of labour were altered. Ash was, children might be set to the extreme of work, even on their fourteenth birthday. The hon. Member read extracts from the evidence of the medical Gentlemen consulted on the subject—particularly Dr. Farr—and which stated, that the labour of the slaves in the West Indies was far less, and less injurious, than that of the slaves in the English factories; that the blacks were never severely worked at a premature age, as was the case in the factories—more particularly as regarded young females. This evidence stated, that the labour of the young in the factories—particularly in the case of girls—
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was such as to wear the sufferers to death. Nothing called for legislative interference more than this frightful outrage upon humanity. When the House had voted 20,000,000 l. of money for the emancipation of the slaves, surely it would not hesitate to extend its protection to these poor children, when it had the means of doing so without any expenditure. Laws were passed to protect grouse and pheasants, and hares and other game, and even oysters were not excluded from the protection of the Legislature. He said, then, that, even putting humanity out of the question, it would be expedient, if only in a financial point of view, to prevent avarice from making a sacrifice of human life. The eyes of all foreign nations were directed upon the course which the Legislature would take upon this question, for the cruelties perpetrated in the English factories had rendered us odious to all Europe. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to accede to the proposition of the noble Lord. This was a question which regarded not only the operatives, but in which every man who had at heart the welfare of the country must feel a deep interest. He hoped, therefore, that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would withdraw his opposition, and that the House would at once proceed by going into a Committee on the Bill to remove this slain from the character of the country.
Mr. Wilbrahamsaid, he felt that a case was made out for the interference of the Legislature, and he should be sorry if the Session passed over without the House adopting some measures on the subject. But he should vote for the appointment of a Select Committee, because he had no means of judging of the evidence on the side of the manufacturers. He thought it absolutely necessary that there should be some provision for enforcing the regulations of any Bill that might be passed, for there were already several laws which ought to be carried into effect, but which were totally disregarded for want of means to enforce them. Sir John Hobhouse's Bill for restricting labour to twelve hours, had been carried into effect in Manchester, by a committee of master-manufacturers; but in other places it was evaded. Although there was no more decided advocate than he was, of the interference of the House in favour of the factory children, yet, for the reason he had stated, he thought the question ought to be referred to a Select Committee. If be were a member of that Committee, he should feel it his duty to recommend that

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which he should consider to be for the advantage both of the children and their employers.
Sir Robert Ingliscomplained of the disadvantage under which ninety-nine Members out of 100 laboured, in never having seen even the outside of the volume now before them (the Report of the Commissioners) until that moment. The Report had not yet been delivered to the Members of the House. Copies had only been given to some favoured individuals, and also, he supposed, to his Majesty's Ministers; but with the exception of a copy which he had met an hon. friend of his carrying, like a burthen, in the streets of London, a day or two ago, he had never until that moment seen the Report. And yet it was upon that Report that the House was now called upon to legislate. He must, however, say that the difficulty he felt was considerably reduced by the recollection of the former Report on the factory system. If he knew no more than the evidence of the medical men contained in that Report, he should be quite prepared to say that sixteen or even thirteen hours' labour during the day, was much too great for the human animal at that period of life when it was the object of his noble friend to protect children. As his noble friend was now absent from his seat, he might indulge himself by saying, that, since this question had lost the benefit of Mr. Sadler's able advocacy, it could not possibly have fallen into better hands than those of his noble friend. It was surely not necessary to carry such a question from Committee to Commission, and from Commission back to Committee again. The Bill of his noble friend only said, that no more than a certain quantity of labour should be imposed upon children under a certain age. Could there be a stronger case than that which was supported by the evidence of such names as Bell, Brodie, Roget, and Carlisle, and other medical men of equal eminence, all of whom concurred in declaring, that females, under a given age, were incompetent to perform the quantity of labour now imposed upon them? He did not wish to attack the mill-owners, either as individuals or as a body; but he could not help deeply censuring the system under which so extended a quantity of labour was imposed upon female infants, for such they were, both by law, and, in many cases; in strict phraseology. It was the bounden duty of that House to step forward and say, that henceforward such labours should not be imposed. He was fully prepared
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to enter into this subject, but he hoped it was not necessary. He would say, and he was sure that no Gentleman in that House would contradict him, that females from fourteen to eighteen years of age, ought not to be subjected to the severe labour now imposed upon them. The evidence on the subject was most disheartening and disgusting. Mr. Smith said, that the children were actually worn to death. Without appealing to the feelings of the House, he was sure, that on sober consideration, it would be admitted, that human beings ought not to be sacrificed on a mere calculation of profit and loss, and that this state of things ought not to be continued. He saw no necessity for the question being again sent to a Select Committee, when the evils and abuses of the system were not contradicted.
Lord Morpethsaid, that ever since the conduct of this measure had passed from his hands into those of his noble friend it had been his study to offer no obstruction to its course, in the hope that his noble friend might be blessed with the means of conducting Parliament to such a decision as should secure efficient protection to the children in the factory districts, with the smallest possible injury or interruption to employment and industry. With this view he had voted against the appointment of a Commission, though now, after it had been appointed, and the consequent delay incurred, he should think it very preposterous and stiff-necked not to derive such assistance from its labours as they might fairly seem entitled to afford. What that amount of assistance might be they had at present very inadequate means of deciding, as the Report had not yet reached them. All he could say at present was, that if the Commissioners, after much communication, both with masters and men, felt themselves authorised to recommend for children under a certain age a shorter term of labour than that which both his noble friend and himself would have concurred in suggesting, that was, ten hours, he should feel disposed to accede to it. But then he must add, that he should be sorry to leave all young persons above fourteen years of age wholly without any regulation or protection from excessive working, nay, possibly exposed to the aggravated toil of working through the double set of hours for the younger children. Under these circumstances he thought they might come to some agreement to continue persons between the ages of fourteen and eighteen under the present limitations of Sir John Hobhouse's Bill,

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extending them to every branch of manufacture; or as he (Lord Morpeth) should much prefer, reducing the time of work to eleven hours, which was at present reckoned the ordinary day's work in the woollen districts. Of course there would be still less risk of any had effects when the age was raised, without which he (Lord Morpeth) would never have consented to so long a terra from nine to fourteen. This scheme would have these additional recommendations: it would produce comparatively little disturbance in the most extensive branches of our manufacturing industry; further, while it avoided the vicious principle of interfering with adult labour, it would at the same time indirectly rescue adult labour from the inordinate extension which the practice of working double sets might otherwise impose upon it; and lastly, and perhaps chiefly, it might very easily be combined with a plan of working either a single set or double sets, or a set and a half of the younger children in each day, but of giving them in each case a moderate but certain amount of instruction, which might be attended with effects both to themselves and to society at large, which, with the zealous co-operation of manufacturing capitalists, and under the blessing of God, he could not appreciate too highly or anticipate too warmly. Notwithstanding some painful instances of abuse, he had always protested against the indiscriminate and fierce attacks directed against the manufacturers of England; but he did not conceal from himself, or from them, that they appeared to him to be invested with high responsibilities. The factory system, whatever be its faults, whatever its abuses, had stricken deep root in the country: they must deal with it as they found it; and although domestic manufacture might here and there show symptoms of revival, it had little chance of superseding, to any general extent its active and efficient and thoroughly organised rival. But as the factory system had unquestionably added much to the wealth, population, and importance of the districts in which it had been established, so he believed it might, under judicious and conscientious management, be so conducted as to add in an almost equal degree to the intellectual, moral, and religious improvement of the swarming population which it reared; and therefore he ventured to assume that the opportunities of doing extensive good, and the consequent responsibility, seemed to pertain almost as fully to the owners of large mills and factories in towns
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as to the great landed proprietors of acres and villages, the Lords of Blenheim and of Belvoir. Upon the imperfect data before them the noble Lord said, he had ventured to give them a rough sketch of his own views; he found, that the instructions proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not appear to be at variance with them: they recognised a very large measure of protection for children under fourteen years of age; they did not, he apprehended, preclude the adoption of a less strict limit for young persons above fourteen and below eighteen; above all, they acknowledged the propriety of some scheme of education. As for the form of proceeding, he thought that probably these provisions might be moulded into form with less loss of time in a Select Committee, not empowered to receive evidence, than in a Committee of the whole House. To that point, however, he did not attach much importance; but he was happy to think that, whether in the Committee below or up stairs, the subject would be entertained without any of that virulence and turbulence which he was pained to think had marred and polluted this good and righteous cause elsewhere.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, there ought to be no more delay, and the House ought to get rid of all delusion on the subject. There had been enough of both. What Committee had done last year Commission did now, and yet it was proposed that there should be another Committee, and then no doubt there would be another Commission. And what was it that they were thus delaying about? It was whether a child could work more than a negro in the West-Indies. When they were proposing apprenticeships for the negroes they did not dare to talk of more than ten hours' work, and now they were to debate whether a child was able to work more than a grown negro. The King was bound to protect all his subjects under the age of twenty-one years, and a great officer, the Lord Chancellor, was appointed, to whom that duty was assigned. If the infant had a hundred pounds in 'the world he would be sure of the protection of the Lord Chancellor, who might tear him from his mother's arms for that purpose, as he had torn a Member from that House. But the power of the Lord Chancellor could not be put in motion without money. Here were children who had no Lord Chancellor to protect them. They had no property but their labour, and the House was bound to become the universal Chancellor in their favour. The

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principle was clear, the House was bound to protect the children. It was impossible to look to the first volume of evidence without seeing the fact; then, why not legislate at once? Oh! there might be a counterbalancing evil. If the child's labour were stopped, a yard of calico might not be spun; and if the child were prevented working itself to death, a spinning-jenny would be stopped for an hour. It was not denied that, to a certain extent, the evil complained of did exist. There was human life on the one hand, and were they to calculate on the other how much less cotton would be made if a given number of children were not killed in the year? He said that the protection ought to last until twenty-one, because that was the age which the law had fixed. But, at all events, let them not go below eighteen. The regulations as now proposed would be liable to constant abuse. He recollected a remarkable instance of abuse of a similar regulation. The masters of the Charter Schools in Ireland had been allowed the labour of the children until they were fourteen years of age, when they were to be apprenticed out. There was a lad of the name of Tooke, who was fourteen in 1824, but in 1827 it miraculously happened that he was only eleven, and in 1829 he reached fourteen again. Such things would occur under the regulations now proposed. The House was called upon not to legislate this Session. [No, no!] Why! did Gentlemen recollect that this was the 5th of July, and that the House was working double tides—in the morning and evening? Let them, therefore, get rid of all this hypocrisy, and say that they were determined not to legislate this Session. He wished that the House should go into Committee to night. Let the Chairman, then, report progress, and by Monday every hon. Member who was a friend to humanity would have waded through the voluminous book before them, if further information was necessary.
Mr. Brothertonsaid, that all persons were agreed that some legislation was necessary. That was making a great progress, for twenty years ago not a single master would allow that legislative interference was necessary. Now, the public, the masters, and the working men, all agreed in appealing to Parliament to make regulations for the labour of factories. They had different motives for demanding it. The masters demanded it because they desired to prevent some amongst themselves from working too long. The adults required
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interference, as the only means of preventing them from being overworked; and the public required the interference of the Legislature to protect the children. He thought that there should be some restriction, and that the restriction should establish one uniform system. He knew that some mills were now working for fifteen or sixteen hours a-day; and he knew that infants of a very tender age were so employed. The hon. Member quoted two or three cases, from the evidence of the Commissioners. The ten hours Bill would, he admitted, he a great change from the present system; and he wished, that the protection could be further extended as to age. He wished it extended till the age of twenty-(me. Indeed, unless the labour of the adults was regulated, which was requisite, it was impossible to protect the children. He was anxious to make the Bill effective for its objects. The masters of Manchester, he believed, only wished to labour sixty-nine hours a week, and the noble Lord's Bill proposed fifty-eight. Now, if the parties were brought together he thought they might come to some agreement; and he, therefore, was of opinion, that, in order to make a good Bill, it should be referred to a Select Committee. At the present moment the children were so much part of the machinery, that they must work the whole time the mill worked, or starve, otherwise the masters would not employ them. Their labour, then, was not free labour. They must be there at the time, and they must stay the whole time, without ever going out. Would not the Members of that House feel it a great hardship to be confined there the whole day? He knew what those hardships were, for he had worked in a factory himself till he had reached his sixteenth year. He had worked twelve and fourteen hours a-day, and had undergone all the privations which factory children endured. For these young persons he felt the deepest sympathy; and though he had been raised to the highest honour which man could confer on him—that of sitting in the British House of Commons—he could never forget his former station. He did feel much for the sufferings of these children, and a great disposition to stand by his order; and if he could by his labours ameliorate their condition, he should feel that he had not lived in vain.
Mr. Hyetthoped as no debate had hitherto taken place upon the merits of the measure, that he might be permitted, notwithstanding the prohibition on the part of the

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noble Lord this evening, to make a few observations of a general nature—not so much upon the principle of this measure, (for that was admitted) as upon the machinery by which it was intended to carry that principle into effect—in order to show that the details of this measure were of so complicated a nature that it would be impracticable to render them available for the purpose in view, in a Committee of the whole House, and that they must necessarily be referred to a Select Committee. The noble Lord observed that if the principles of his Bill were admitted, he would waive all objections to its going to a Select Committee; but he was at a loss to know exactly what those principles were. The Bill seemed to him to embrace several principles. First, the principle of regulating the labour of children; next, that of limiting the labour of adults; and, thirdly, that of interfering with the moving power of machinery. If the principle were for the regulation of the labour of children alone—to that principle he should not only make no objection, but give, most willingly, his cordial concurrence to any simple and practical measure likely to be effective for that purpose, but which, at the same time, was not likely to inflict a greater amount of suffering than that which it was calculated to remove. Entertaining that opinion it would have been inconsistent with Parliamentary usage for him to have offered any opposition to the details of this measure in any previous stage, and he had, therefore, abstained from doing so, although it certainly appeared to him, after the most anxious attention which he had been able to give the subject, that there were difficulties arising from the details of this measure which would render its practical effects as regarded the children themselves, a matter of very doubtful issue; or if it succeeded in accomplishing its object through its restrictive and inquisitorial interference with our manufactures, it would strike such a blow at those manufactures as would ultimately and speedily reach, in a still more severe shape, those whose condition the Legislature was benevolently striving to improve. It was to the details of this measure to which he wished to direct the attention of the House, they were of the most varied and complicated description. He was quite aware in the present tone and temper of the country, that even to oppose going into Committee with reference to a measure contemplating objects so benevolent as that of the noble Lord, would be
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thought neither a very gracious nor a very easy task; hut believing that there were provisions in the Bill calculated to produce greater mischief than they could remove, he should certainly not shrink from the duty of thus opposing them. It could not be denied that the measure, if not within these walls, at least out of doors had been pressed forward under the impulse of very strong and warm feelings—with which he was conscious it would be difficult to cope. The hon. member for Marylebone, (Sir S. Whalley) had appealed to the humanity of the House; but notwithstanding that appeal, it was surely not necessary to remind the House, that legislation dictated by feelings and affections, however amiable or benevolent, unless strictly under the control of the reason and the judgment, was not the best means for securing the welfare and happiness of those for whom the feelings were most interested. Admitting the principle of this measure, and that it was desirable to legislate on this subject, if it could be done effectively and beneficially, it was impossible to shut his eyes to the fact, that difficulties met them at the very outset greater and graver than the advocates of the measure seemed to be aware of. If they legislated at all, they ought not to legislate partially; if they legislated for one description of manufacturing labour, they ought to legislate for all. The inconsistency of not doing so, was apparent from the title of the Bill, which was "A Bill to regulate the labour of children and young persons in the wills and factories of the United Kingdom." The preamble went on to state, that "Whereas it is necessary that the hours of labour of children and young persons employed in mills and factories, of whatever description, should be regulated, &; "but so far from endeavouring to effect this sweeping interference with mills and factories of whatever description, it confined itself in its enacting parts to the manufactures alone of cotton, silk, flax, and woollen, although it was perfectly well known that children were employed in almost every branch of manufacturing industry carried on in this country, as for example, paper, glass, porcelain, & & they were employed in much more severe labour and much more unhealthy processes, in every species of manufacture, of iron, tin, copper, brass, and lead, from the digging the ore in the mine, to its final completion in its most finished form. They were exposed to every sort of danger, both the young and the old of both

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sexes. Their toil was without intermission, (at least the labour was without intermission, though by alternate companies), night and day, from first entering the mine, till the completion of the finished article of necessity or luxury. That toil was begun under the scorching heat of the blast furnace or the forge, and ended amidst vapours of the most noxious acids and most deadly poisons. To none of those labourers were the sympathies of this statute to be extended, notwithstanding the large and liberal assertions of its title and preamble. Granting the subject to be in every other respect ripe for legislation, what instruments did this Bill afford for carrying its provisions into effect? It was the parent who made the contract and sanctioned the work of the child; and neither the wisdom of Mr. Sadler, nor the ingenuity of the noble Lord, could find a stronger safeguard for the child than the natural affection of the parent. If the master and parent conspired together, as it was alleged they did, to overwork the child, what contrivance had the ingenuity of the authors of this Bill devised to prevent them? What substitute had it invented for parental affection? What protector and guardian had it found out, who, stimulated by a stronger impulse than the love of the parent, and armed with more than a father's inquisitorial powers, should continually watch over the hours of labour and of rest? The noble Lord was obliged to fall back upon that feeble resource of all impotent legisla-lators, the informer—the casual informer—that venerable parliamentary sinecurist—through whose sluggish inactivity so much legislative mischief had been prevented, and so many menacing and vexatious enactments had slumbered peacefully, little known, in the Statute-Book. The noble Lord had recourse also to the expedient of the time-book—a log-book for the entry of the extraordinary crimes and misdemeanours—made by the provisions of this Bill, and kept for the purposes of self-conviction—a provision, in his humble apprehension, not much in harmony with the spirit of our laws, and which, however excessive might be the pains and penalties attached to it, was by no means more likely to escape evasion, nor to be more effective than the informer himself. Moreover, it was so peculiarly inquisitorial, arbitrary, and obnoxious, that he sincerely believed it would go far to drive the most respectable and humane manufacturers—and he was speaking the sentiments of that respectable and
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humane part of them, against whose manufactories there never had been a shadow of complaint—it would go far to drive the more respectable manufacturers who were anxious to observe the laws of their country, but who would be beaten by those who evade them—it would drive them out of their establishments, which would fall, by degrees, into the hands of the less scrupulous and the less humane. But a third provision appeared to him far more injurious than any other part of the Bill: it limited the moving power of machinery, and consequently all labour, adult as well as Juvenile, dependent upon it. That this restriction was, it was true, to depend upon the condition of a certain negative proof—a proof at all times difficult—but which would, in this case., be perfectly impracticable. This provision would, in some cases where water was the propelling power, restrict ail labour dependent upon it to six or eight hours a-day, and sometimes to less. These restrictions, then, would amount practically to a general limitation of all machinery and manufacturing labour employed in those branches to which the Bill applied. He believed, moreover, that this was not only the expectation but the intention of many of those who, out of doors, had pressed forward this measure to its full extent most vehemently, and who had put forward the sufferings of the children in the most exaggerated shape, to cover their ulterior designs on the general labour of the country. He did not believe, that so extensive an interference with the labour of the country could be contemplated by the noble Lord nor did he wean in any way whatever to in-sinuate that the noble Lord's conduct par-took of the disingenuous character to which he had alluded. He was only afraid, that the noble Lord could not be aware of the real extent of the measure into which he had been hurried, and was not sufficiently acquainted with the great manufacturing system of this country, to authorize him in, introducing a measure so extensive and so important. Was the noble Lord thoroughly acquainted with the vast and complicated nature of the manufacturing system in all its various bearings and relations? Or did the noble Lord think that the manufactures of England were fit matter to be trifled with? Did the noble Lord know how closely our rivals were treading on our heels?'—that if we suffered them to get the start of us, we should toil in vain to regain our lost way? Let us once full behind, and the race would be lost

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for ever! Did the noble Lord know that the Americans were fast encroaching upon our trade in cotton, the Lyonese were surpassing us in silk, and the Belgians and Prussians were coming up to us in the great staple of our woollens? There was another point which perhaps the noble Lord and the House were not acquainted with; the manufacturers of Belgium were looking anxiously to the effect of this particular measure as it would affect adult labour and machinery, expecting to be enabled to compete successfully with us in the markets of Europe. Did the noble Lord ever consider that the manufactures of this country were the bread of millions, and were the animating spirit not merely of our political prosperity, but of our national existence? Had the noble Lord, in the intentness of his contemplation of the actual suffering under his eyes, ever given a single thought to the more remote but more extensive and fatal dangers which must arise from this measure? Had the noble Lord ever reflected, that if our manufacturing system was disjointed, no retracing our steps would avert such a ruin as never yet befel a civilized country? The people of England would not starve; the suspension of our manufactures for a single week would in all probability, drive back this country which had advanced further towards a state of general civilization (through the instrumentality of our commerce and manufactures) than any country since the commencement of the world—into a state of immediate misery and confusion, such as no heart could conceive, and no tongue describe, if we should not ultimately relapse into barbarism. Nothing, he was aware, was more difficult than to put minor and present evils justly into the scale against future and fatal dangers, and to weigh them fairly in the balance of a sober conscience: but if they were to arrive at just conclusions that must be done; and it was no less his duty to look fairly in the face of present ills and compare them against future dangers, than it was the duty of the noble Lord to anticipate future mischief from his endeavours to remedy present suffering. He was ready to admit that there was much evil in our present system—much suffering among children employed in manufactories—and he was prepared by prudent and fair restrictions, to endeavour to lessen it: at the same time it did appear to him that the amount of that suffering had been Very considerably magnified. He alluded
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particularly to the tables which had been published at the end of the volume of evidence taken before Mr. Sadler's Committee last Session. If it were not troubling the House too much, he would beg them to refer, for one moment, to these tables. He was perfectly aware of the difficulty which even those felt, who were most in the habit of addressing the House, in making statements intelligible or interesting which relate to numerical tables, and, he was perfectly sure, that he, who was not in the habit of addressing it, should stand in need of all the indulgence which the House could extend towards him. The tables to which he alluded, showed the comparative estimate of the duration of human life in large manufacturing towns, as compared with certain other places; and he particularly wished to draw the attention of the House to the "Comparative Result" of those tables, which showed in every 10,000 burials the number of deaths under twenty years of age, and of those under forty, for a given number of years, and which, undoubtedly, at first sight, appeared most alarming as against the manufacturing towns. There is a note at the end which saddled the whole evil upon the factory system: It said, "so that about as many have died under twenty, where the factory system extensively prevails, as before their fortieth year elsewhere." But that comparison was not fairly instituted. Was it fair to compare, on the one hand Rutland, a healthy county, Essex, called in the tables a marshy county by which is meant unhealthy, but which he should take an opportunity of showing-was not the case; certain old towns; the Metropolis, which in other respects was a fair subject of comparison, but which, when it was recollected that it contained so large a share of the wealth, and consequent comforts, the largest and best charitable institutions, and the first medical assistance of the country, was scarcely to be admitted as a fair criterion of general longevity; was it fair, he asked, to compare these places, on the one hand, against large and densely-inhabited manufacturing towns, on the other? Every comparison, to be fairly made, should be made between things in every other respect as much as possible, cœteris paribus, with the exception alone of the particular instance from which you intend to draw your inference. Thus, in the present case, it ought to have been made, not between counties and old towns abounding in wealth, &, and our thickly

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inhabited manufacturing towns, but between large densely-packed manufacturing towns, and large densely-packed non-manufacturing towns. Such for instance, as Liverpool, our largest commercial town, which was the fittest subject of comparison for such places as Macclesfield, Wigan, and Bradford. And what, then, was the result? In every 10,000 deaths in Liverpool, under twenty, there are 5,567; in Macclesfield, 5,889; in Bradford, 5,896; and in Wigan, 5,911; and instead of finding a difference against the manufacturing towns of between 2,000 and 2,500, as shown in Mr. Sadler's tables, there was only the much smaller difference of from 300 to 500—a difference which was sufficiently accounted for by evils which every one must admit to exist in our manufacturing establishments, without imputing it to the cruelty and overworking of children, which it was the object of this Bill to counteract. It must be conceded, that the congregating of large masses of people together, and the more frequent exposure of children to some unhealthy processes, and to those contagious disorders to which youth was peculiarly liable, it was unfavourable to the duration of life; but all those circumstances were beyond the scope of legislation. Of those who (in 10,000) die under forty, he found ill Bradford, 7,061; in Liverpool, 7,087; in Wigan, 7,117; in Macclesfield, 7,300; and thus, notwithstanding, it was frequently urged, that people in our great manufacturing towns, rarely reach the age of forty, positively more die under forty in Liverpool than in Bradford. But as this difference was attempted to be placed entirely to the score of the factory system, in order to ascertain whether that were just, he had established a comparison (disembarrassing himself of the accompanying causes of difference arising from the dense population of large towns) between a rural manufacturing district and certain agricultural districts, as much as possible similarly circumstanced. He had taken the district which he had the honour to represent, and where the factory system extensively prevailed, and where, therefore, if the position in the note to which he had alluded were correct, (that as many die under twenty where that system prevailed as under forty where it did not), there ought to be some corresponding majority in the deaths, when that district was compared with agricultural districts in other respects similarly circumstanced, but where the factory system did not prevail. To represent such
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districts, he had taken all the counties of England, and arranged them in the order of the duration of life, placing the most healthy first, and adopting the same formula of calculation as Mr. Sadler. If it should be urged that there were closely inhabited towns in these counties, the same held good in that manufacturing district. He found, then, that the county of Hereford was the most healthy, and came first; it gave, in every 10,000 burials, 3,420 deaths under twenty years of age; and passing down the list through Rutland, Wilts, Westmoreland, Dorset, and Monmouth, the manufacturing district of the county of Gloucester came seventh in the list, and gave 3,951 deaths. But the county of Gloucester itself, in the centre of which this manufacturing district was placed, came thirteenth, and gave 4,077 deaths. It was to be observed, that this was not a comparison between the manufacturing and agricultural population alone, but between the manufacturing part and the whole county including the manufacturing part. So that this county was probably raised higher in the scale than it would otherwise be, by the greater duration of life found in the manufacturing district. Essex, which was represented to be a marshy county, and, therefore, unhealthy, was the twenty-third in order, and gave 4,269 deaths, while the average of all England was 4,514; so that Essex, instead of being an unhealthy county, was healthier than the average of all England by 250 deaths under twenty years of age in every 10,000 burials. There was a difference in favour of this district, in which, "the factory system does prevail," as compared with the average of England, of between 500 and 600. The Isle of Ely was the forty-second and last on the list, a marshy and really unhealthy district, where there die 5,328 under twenty. The same results appeared under forty: Hereford was again first, and gave 4,826 deaths; the same manufacturing district was again the seventh, and gave 5,328; the county of Gloucester had sunk from number thirteen to eighteen, and gave 5,606 deaths, showing a less mortality in the manufacturing district, than in the county in which it was situated by nearly 300 deaths; Essex gave 5,796; all England 5,979; making Essex better than the average of all England by nearly 200, and the manufacturing district better than the average of all England by more than 600. Taking the note to which he had before alluded as

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his example, but reversing the comparison, he found the deaths under forty in the manufacturing district as compared with the deaths under twenty, in the Isle of Ely, to be exactly the same, namely, 5,328 in each case. So that exactly as many die under the ago of twenty in the district where the factory system did not prevail, as under the age of forty in a place where it did. In this manner every sort of evil had been laid at the door of the "factory system; "in truth, the" factory system" had been used to express and designate every sort of abuse. He knew, as well as any one, that there were abuses in the factory system as well as in any other; but it was as unfair to use the phrase of the factory system in this sense as it would be to designate all the atrocious crimes committed in this country by the name of the social system. Feeling that these exaggerations ought to be put in a fair light, he had endeavoured to do so. A stain had been thrown not only upon our manufacturers but upon the country, which he felt it a duty—a duty both to his constituents and to the country in general—to attempt to remove. Upon the whole it appeared to him, that the restrictions which it was proposed to intro-duce, were of such a nature, that it would be exceedingly difficult to understand their effect, if they were discussed in a Committee of the whole House. There were three or four different sorts of manufactures with which the House was to interfere—all of which were conducted in a totally different way, and with respect to the internal regulations of which this House could know very little. That rendered the subject so complicated, that he did not think the inquiry could be proceeded with in any other way than before a Committee up-stairs. The clauses of the Bill were all of so meddling a character, that they were both frivolous and vexatious. There was one which required that hereafter factories should be built on a certain plan, which, according to the text, only meant of a certain height: one required they should be white-washed once a year; and one made accidents from machinery felonies when death ensued, upon the verdict of manslaughter from a coroner's jury—a point upon which he apprehended that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had been entirely misunderstood. He did not understand the noble Lord to object to machinery being properly boxed and guarded, as it had been represented in the course of this debate, but to the impropriety
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of attaching such a punishment as that of manslaughter, for such comparatively small offences as an accident from machinery, when, in fact, the proprietor of the mill might not be to blame at all. Such were the restrictions the House was called upon to impose on this great manufacturing country. He had no doubt that he should be told, that they were necessary to effect the benevolent objects of the promoters of this Bill; but he humbly apprehended, that in their wish to carry into effect these benevolent designs, they had overlooked the magnitude of the consequences—an error, not very unusual with all righters of wrongs and redressers of grievances, from the days of Don Quixote to those of the noble Lord. He must be permitted to observe, notwithstanding the cheer of the noble Lord, that there was a Quixotic spirit abroad at the present day, which, singling out a few of the abuses to which human nature always had been liable, and to which it always would be liable—there was a spirit, he said, of legislative Quixotism abroad, which, singling out some few cases of abuse, rushed on to remedy them with breathless haste, regardless of the dangers it might inflict on those whom it wished to relieve, or on society in general. The noble Lord cheered, and would excuse him if he took the liberty of pointing out one or two particular plagiarisms which had been committed on the volume of Cervantes—the noble Lord would, he was sure, excuse him, if, in the most perfect good humour, though without the slightest intention of treating this great and important subject with unbecoming levity, and only for the purpose of extracting a serious, moral, and useful lesson, he pointed out one or two remarkable coincidences between the adventures of the noble Lord, and of those of his great predecessor of La Mancha. One of the first adventures of the Spanish Knight, was that which originated in his interfering in the relief of a servant boy of about fifteen years of age, for the purpose of preventing the boy from receiving a severe beating from his tyrannical master; but the only effect of the interference was, that the moment Don Quixote had turned his back, the boy received a still more severe infliction. The noble Lord's great original could make no hand of the fulling mills, for his discreet Esquire Sancho, like Mr. Sadler, who came so long after him, fearing the dangers of a tilt at the fulling hammers, tied the legs of Rosinante, and created au exception in their favour; and so it was

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with the noble Lord and Mr. Sadler, who, notwithstanding all the chivalrous spirit of their warfare against mills, thought it right to abstain from any attack upon our fulling mills, and created a precisely similar exception in their favour—" Provided always, 'said the Bill, "that nothing in this Act herein contained shall in any way whatever apply to that process commonly called the fulling of woollens." After all, were they legislating at the right end? Were they to go on in this petty-fogging manner from day to day, adding fetter to fetter, and trammel to trammel, on the industry and the energy, and the enterprise of the country? Were they, in these days of liberty of thought and liberty of action, to recur to the olden time of chartered guilds and exclusive companies, prescribing, if not the modes, at least the hours of manufacture."' There was, indeed, in the present day, a zeal, he might almost say an excessive lust, of legislation, a mania for making little laws for little occasions, when they ought rather to be doing their best to be getting rid of those which were causing the mischief. They ought rather to look at the causes of the disease than at its effects and symptoms—they ought rather to look for general preventions than for particular nostrums—they ought rather mend the general health than botch up in detail a few offensive and irritating sores—let them turn their minds rather to a consideration of their financial difficulties—let them, at proper times and seasons (for he was not anxious to hurry on the country too fast and too far) consider whether these difficulties did not arise from restrictions, rather than increase their number. Let us endeavour to exchange what we manufacture more cheaply than our neighbour for what he produces more cheaply than ourselves. If they attempted that, and succeeded even in but a partial degree, he was disposed to believe that there would be but little need for Commissions of Enquiry, and Factory Bills, and Truck Bills; and if they had attempted it, and succeeded but partially, he believed there would have been but little clamour for Parliamentary Reform, and there would have been no need of Coercion.
Colonel Torrensobjected to the Bill being referred to a Committee up-stairs with such instructions as those recommended by the noble Lord. Parents might be willing to make the sacrifice of the wages attendant on a diminution of the hours of working to ten, but he doubted
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whether they would agree to limit the hours to eight. If the course recommended by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, were adopted, he was sure the beneficial tendency of the Bill would be defeated.
Mr. Humesaid, that though it was an established principle or rule, that any restriction or regulation of labour or wages was mischievous, yet he thought the case of children was an exception to that rule. He had voted for a Commission of Inquiry on the grounds of the complaints as to the allegations preferred against that important interest, the manufacturers of this country; but he was of opinion that now, when so strong a feeling had been raised in the public mind, that the Bill ought to be discussed, clause by clause, in a Committee of the whole House, in order that the public might know all the bearings and principles of the Bill. By sending the Bill to a Committee up-stairs, not one hour would be saved. A Committee had already sat, and a Commission of Inquiry had been issued, and this was the proper time to come to a decision upon the subject. The charges of partiality which had been raised against the Commissioners, who were, no doubt, honorable men, would not be set aside by the secret inquiries of a Committee up-stairs, and therefore the discussion ought to be in this House, so that every man might know the opinions in favour and the opposition offered to every clause of the Bill. Such a course would afford satisfaction to the country, and believing it to be the best for all portions of the community, he should support the motion for going into a Committee of the whole House.
Mr. Matthias Allwoodsaid, he agreed with most of the remarks of the hon. member for Middlesex, with regard to the propriety of going into a Committee of the whole House upon the Bill, although he did not think that Ministers brought forward the Amendment merely for the sake of delay. He also fully appreciated those feelings which animated the hon. member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton), in referring to his own early sufferings—feelings which, in his opinion, and evidently in that of the House, had done the hon. Member the greatest honour. The House had heard a great deal said about the excitement which undoubtedly prevailed among the population of the manufacturing districts; but what was the course proposed by his Majesty's Ministers likely to produce, if not additional excitement? What

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other interpretation could the people, or would they probably, put, upon the sentiments which had dictated the Amendment of the noble Lord, but that the Ministers were unfriendly to the Bill? What necessity was there for a Select Committee? There had already been a Report from a Committee up-stairs. They had the Report of the Factories' Commissioners. The question was not a mere question of the feelings of Englishmen, but a question of the feelings of humanity—a question of the grossest injustice—of utter destruction, inflicted upon the feeble and the unprotected. It was not a question of pounds, shillings, and pence—not a point to be settled on the grounds of mercantile advantage. The Select Committee was to be bound by an instruction with respect to the age to which the protection was to be extended; but was the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, aware, he asked, of the provisions of the Bill of the noble Lord (Ashley)?
Mr. George Woodthought the House ought not hastily to come to a decision upon a subject of so much importance. He rejoiced much at the manner in which the feeling address of the hon. member for Salford had been received by the House; and though his hon. friend had pointed out a middle course to be pursued on this question, yet he feared, from the tone and temper manifested by the advocates of the Bill, there was but little chance that a middle course would be adopted. He, however, hoped the House would not proceed to adjudicate lightly upon this important question. The existing law had not been proved to be ineffective; and until it was shown that the proposed prohibition or restriction would be so, great caution should be used. The hon. Baronet (the member for Oxford) had made a strong appeal to the feelings, by calling upon the House to afford protection to young women under eighteen years of age, by passing this Bill; but he would remind the hon. Baronet, that in such an event as the Bill passing with its present restrictions, females under eighteen would be discharged by the master, and those above eighteen years of age, whether unmarried or married, would be employed; and if the latter were the case, the effect upon the state of society would be most prejudicial.
Lord Stormontcontended, that the effect of the proposition of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would be, if not to throw the Bill out altogether, at
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least to delay it from passing during the present Session, which was near its close. The Session might, perhaps, last two months longer. Hon. Gentlemen were very difficult to please; but even if it did last the period he had mentioned, there would not be sufficient time for passing this measure if it were now sent to a Committee upstairs. He considered this one of the most important measures of the Session, and he should therefore vote for the House going into a Committee.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonwished to recal the attention of the House to the real subject before them. The hon. member for Whitehaven had charged his noble friend with a desire to delay the Bill, but if the hon. Gentleman had only heard his noble friend's statement, he would have seen that there was no foundation whatever for the allegation. The right hon. Gentleman contended, that the Bill in its present shape could not be passed without much discussion and a great waste of time, and that the proposition of his noble friend, instead of impeding, would have the effect of facilitating its progress in such a form as would give general satisfaction to all parties interested in it. The Committee up stairs was not intended to receive evidence, but merely to see whether the protection proposed to be given by this Bill might not be carried even further than it had been carried by the noble Lord. The subject was one of such difficulty and delicacy that it could not properly be discussed by a Committee of the whole House; and hence his noble friend's anxiety to have it sent to a Committee up stairs, where it could receive all the consideration it deserved. For his own part he should like to have the whole subject fully discussed, and he was satisfied if it were completely argued out, the ignorance and delusion that prevailed regarding it would be effectually dissipated. It had been said, the Lord Chancellor was the protector of all infants who have property, and this House was called upon to make itself the protector of all infants who have no property but their labour. He entirely agreed in that sentiment; the House was bound to take under its protection not only infants, but every other of his Majesty's subjects; but protection might sometimes be an injury, as arose from the very protection of the Court of Chancery, where the protection was often very dearly paid for by those parties who were unfortunate enough to obtain it. He felt confident of what would be the result of

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the decision of the House. Although a cry had been got up abroad—although he was one of those who personally had suffered—although his name was mixed with those who were designated as cruel, inhuman, and infant-killers, he treated such paragraphs with the most perfect contempt. He felt satisfied that sooner or later the people would learn who were their true friends. He felt satisfied, that no man would lose by honestly opposing the passing feelings of the people of this country. As he did not value approbation bought by sacrificing what he believed good for them, so he did not value contumely and odium, which would attach but temporarily, for objecting to and opposing measures which he considered improper. On the question of time he felt that there was no difficulty whatever. He was satisfied, that by referring the question up-stairs, they would have the Bill brought in in the state in which it was to be submitted to the House, on which he thought it would be at the present moment spending the time of the House if he followed the noble Lord. The noble Lord very naturally felt anxious that his measure should pass. He had no doubt that the noble Lord conscientiously thought, that the principles of his own Bill were the best. From this he entirely dissented. There was one thing in which he agreed with the noble Lord, namely,—the protection of infant labour to a certain age. He concurred also, in the means, and he was satisfied, that they would obtain the object desired by going into a Committee up stairs. He was satisfied, that there would result from it a measure carrying into effect some portion of the noble Lord's (Lord Ashley's) views, blended, as far as possible, with the proposition of the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, that they had had abundance of evidence and figures. The hon. Member's (Mr. Poulett Thomson's) language was sometimes literal and sometimes figurative; but the whole amounted to this—mammon against mercy. After the eulogium on the humanity of the House pronounced by an hon. Baronet (Sir Samuel Whalley), he trusted that mercy would prevail. He trusted, that it would. But, at any rate, if they were not to be so humane as the hon. Baronet anticipated, he expected they would be, at least, sincere. If they were sincere, how could any man say, that a Committee up stairs could take a book containing 1,500 pages, could analyse and understand it all,
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and compare its contents with another book of 800 pages, and see if they corresponded in their statements—if there was any man in the House who would say that that could be done in less than two or three months, he should begin to think, that some hon. Members were not so sincere as they wished to seem. He would be sincere at any rate. He would say on the part of his constituents, that about 300,000 of the most helpless creatures in the world were holding up their hands for mercy. They implored that House to rescue them from the worst slavery in the world, from the merciless master's frown, and that House should not reject their prayer.
Mr. Sheilreminded the House, that Resolutions on this subject were first introduced into that House by Mr. Sadler years ago, and were supported by an appeal to much evidence. The noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at that time admitted, that it was a fit subject for legislation, but suggested that the Resolutions were not sufficient, and that a Bill ought to be presented. Accordingly a Bill was drawn up and presented, and upon some suggestions was deferred. A great deal of evidence had been since obtained, and as for himself he could truly say, that he was present at the detail of so much misery that it had gone beyond anything he could conjecture or any statement he could make of it. The Parliament was then dissolved, and the matter was brought forward in the new Parliament by the noble Lord (Lord Ashley) who stepped into the honourable station held by Mr. Sadler. When the question was pressed, an application was made for a Commission, and carried by a majority of one. ["More."] One, he believed; but, however, he would not object to add another. It was now nearly two years since the proceeding commenced, and now it was proposed to go before a Select Committee. First, there was the resolutions of Mr. Sadler; then the declaration of the noble Lord (Lord Althorp), that it was a proper matter for legislation; then a Bill was presented; then evidence was heard; then the matter was again brought forward, supported by this new evidence; then there was a Commission; and now, after all, there must be a Select Committee! For what were they to examine the Report of the Commissioners? Why did not the House proceed at once to a Committee of the whole House? The books of the Commissioners contained a great mass of evidence, although it was stated

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that the Commissioners had penned the evidence in a brief compass, and had printed their inferences from it. Was the matter to be left to the Select Committee? If so, it would have a two-fold result; it would, in the first place, be delayed beyond the Session. Would the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, undertake that the Committee should report within a week—within a fortnight then? If this were agreed to, the case would be different. If the Bill did not pass through Parliament, there was another thing to be considered,—the manner in which public opinion would be affected. He admired the lofty intrepidity with which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Poulett Thomson) had spoken of public opinion; but nevertheless public opinion must and would have its way. Had not the West-India question been yielded to public opinion? Had not the twenty millions been given in consequence of public opinion? He would ask, was the Bank Charter left to a Select Committee? No, it was cut short by the noble Lord. Why did they not refer the Irish Church Reform to a Select Committee? No; they were anxious to bring the matter at once to an issue; but the miserable children were to be allowed to perish, while the Committee was sitting up-stairs. Did they expect that the people of England would submit to a measure which combined the baseness of Mammon with the ferocity of Moloch.
Mr. Secretary Stanleysaid, that the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Shell) had led the House to imagine, that they were about to refer the question to a Committee to consider whether they would legislate or not, and upon what principle. It was for neither one nor the other, for both were equally beyond the consideration of a Select Committee. It was only proposed to refer the Bill to a Select Committee to consider its details, and in order to enable Gentlemen to come to the consideration of the question with more knowledge of the real circumstances, with more calmness, more temper, more of dispassionate investigation, than had been shown by the hon. and learned Gentleman, with more deliberation than it was possible for the details of a measure to meet with in a Committee of the whole House. The West-India Company, the East-India Company, the Bank Charter—none of these questions, had yet come to that point at which they referred this to a Committee. They were not on the question
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whether they should bring in a bill or not; but here was a bill requiring amendments, for which they call for a Committee. They could in Committee settle the minute details to be followed up by the House. He could not follow the arguments which had been used by some hon. Members. One hon. Member had talked of sacrificing mercy to Mammon; and the hon. and learned Member had said something about Mammon and Moloch; but the hon. and learned Member was too figurative; his imagination was too fruitful in ideas; for him to follow the argument of the hon. and learned Member. He was asked what was the object of referring the Bill to a Select Committee? It was not to interfere with the principle of the Bill, which was sanctioned, nor to legislate on the Bill, for that was determined upon; but in order that they might deliberate more calmly, and that the Bill might be more speedily and satisfactorily brought to a conclusion, consistent with humanity, mercy, and sound policy.
Mr. Hardythought, that the course proposed, of submitting the matter to the investigation of a Committee up-stairs would impress the country with a belief that it was intended to conceal the delinquencies of the master manufacturers under that covering. For this reason he deprecated that course. He meant not to say anything in disparagement of the Factory Commissioners. He believed them to be on the whole honorable men. But he was of opinion, that they had not chosen a favorable period of the year for the prosecution of their examinations. He knew many (if the Commissioners personally, and was convinced, that they were incapable of unfairness in the prosecution of their inquiries. But, he repeated, they had undertaken them at the wrong period of the year. They went forth in the month of June—the month of all others most calculated to give a favorable coloring to their Report. They instituted their inquiries into the condition of the factory children, he insisted, at a period when that condition was presented under the most favorable appearances—when the factories were newly white washed, and when every thing in the way of comfort that was attainable by the wretched inmates was accomplished. They ought to have gone in the winter season to make their examinations and their inquiries; and then they would have observed the wretched and desolate condition of the poor inmates of the factories,

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exposed to all the inclemencies of the weather-It was not correct to say, that children of fourteen years of age were capable of protecting themselves, when it was well known that their labour was sold, as well as those of a less mature age. For the sake of the Commissioners, he thought, that the investigation ought to be open and fair, and he thought they would come to a conclusion in far less time than if they were above stairs. He agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that they had lost time in this discussion; and if they had referred the Bill to a Committee of the House, the last five hours would have been more profitably occupied in going into the details of the Bill, and some of the material points might have been settled. Knowing the feelings of the country on this subject, he implored the Government to consider well what they were doing, and not interpose any delay to the satisfactory settlement of this question.
Mr. Slaneyrecommended the noble Lord (Lord Ashley) to make some concession in his propositions for the purpose of carrying them into effect. The difference between the two propositions before the House, the one being, that all children under eighteen years of age; should work but ten hours a day, the other that all under fourteen should work but eight, was not so great as to require much time to settle it. But surely the difference between these two propositions could be better settled in a Select Committee than by any other plan of investigation. In case the Motion of the noble Lord (Lord Al-thorp) should be carried he (Mr. Slaney) trusted the noble Lord would be prepared to bring the Bill to a conclusion during the present Session, as might be recommended by the Committee, the appointment of which depended on the vote of the House this night.
Mr. Sinclairwould cordially support the proposition of the noble Mover, and the more so, as, according to the new arrangement of his noble friend opposite, with respect to public business, Committees could only meet two or three days during the week. He hoped, that Parliament would not be prorogued until this most important measure had been finally and satisfactorily adjusted. His Majesty's Ministers would wish the House to continue its labours until the West-India question had been settled; and flu; people of this country, however anxious they might be for the liberation of the negroes from a state
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of misery and degradation, would have great cause for complaint and irritation, if, while Parliament was kept sitting for that purpose (a purpose most laudable in itself), their Representatives did not manifest an equal anxiety to relieve the helpless children of their countrymen from a system of wretchedness and debasement.
The House divided on Lord Althorp's Amendment—Ayes 141; Noes 104: Majority 23. Main Question agreed to.
The House resolved itself into a Committee pro forma, and then resumed. The Committee to sit again.

List of the NOES.

ENGLAND.

Gronow, R. N.

Aglionby, H. A.

Guest, J. J.

Ashley, Lord

Gully, J.

Attwood, M.

Halcombe, J.

Attwood, T.

Halford, H.

Baillie, J. E.

Hall, B.

Barnard, F. G.

Handley, H.

Beauclerk, A. W.

Hardinge, Sir H.

Bell, M.

Hardy, J.

Bewes, J.

Harland, W. C.

Blake, Sir F.

Henniker, Lord

Blunt, Sir C. R.

Hoskins, K.

Brigstock, W. P.

Hope, H. T.

Briscoe, J. L.

Hume, J.

Bruce, Lord E.

Humphery, J.

Bruce, C.

Hutt, W.

Buckingham, J. S.

Ingilby, Sir W.

Bulwer, H. L.

Irton, S.

Burrell, Sir C.

Jermyn, Earl

Buxton, T. F.

Jerniugham, Hon. H.

Calcraft, J. H.

Key, Sir J.

Cayley, E. S.

Lament, Captain N.

Chandos, Marquess of

Langdale, Hon. C.

Chaplin, Colonel T.

Leech, J.

Clayton, Col. W. R.

Lister, E.

Clive, Viscount

Lopez, Sir R.

Cobbett, W.

Lowther, Colonel H.

Cornish, J.

Lyall, G.

Curteis, Captain

Manners, Lord R.

Darlington, Earl of

Nicholl, J.

Dillwyn, L. W.

Norreys, Lord

Dugdale, W. S.

Norton, F.

Eastnor, Viscount

Ossulston, Lord

Estcourt, T. G. V.

Parker, Sir H.

Evans, Colonel

Penleaze, J. S.

Faithful, C.

Paget, F.

Fancourt, Major

Palmer, It,.

Fellowes, H.

Peter, W.

Fellowes, Hon. N.

Poulter, J.

Fielding, J.

Price, R.

Finch, G.

Pryse, P.

Fordwich, Viscount

Robinson, G. R.

Forster, C. S.

Roebuck, J. A.

Gaskell, J. M.

Rotch, B.

Gaskell, D.

Scarlett, Sir J.

Gladstone, W. E.

Scholefield, J.

Gore, M.

Scott, J. W.

Grimston, Viscount

Shawe, R. N.

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Somerset, Lord G.

IRELAND.

Spankie, Sergeant

Baldwin, Dr.

Spry, S. T.

Bateson, Sir R.

Stanley, E.

Bellew, R. M.

Staunton, Sir G. T.

Butler, Hon. P.

Stewart, J.

Chapman, M. L.

Stormont, Viscount

Christmas, J. N.

Thompson, Alderman

Cole, Hon. A.

Throckmorton, R. G.

Corry, Hon. L.

Todd, J. R.

Daly, J.

Tooke, W.

Finn, W. F.

Torrens, R.

Fitzsimon, N.

Townley, R. G.

Galway, J. M.

Townshend, Lord C.

Hayes, Sir E.

Trelawney, W. L. S.

Lefroy, Dr. T.

Tynte, C. T. Kemyss

Lefroy, A.

Tyrell, C.

Lynch, A. H.

Verney, Sir H.

Maxwell, H.

Vernon, Hon. G. J.

Mullins, F. W.

Vincent, Sir F.

Nagle, Sir R.

Walter, J.

O'Brien, C.

Wason, R.

O'Connell, D.

Whalley, Sir S.

O'Connell, M.

Whitmore, T. C.

O'Connell, J.

Williamson, Sir H.

O'Connor, F.

Willoughby, Sir H.

O'Connor, Don

Young, G. F.

O'Dwyer, A.

SCOTLAND.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Agnew, Sir A.

O'Grady, Colonel S.

Dalmeny, Lord

Perceval, Colonel

Gillon, W. D.

Ruthven, E. S.

Hay, Sir John

Ruthven, E.

Maxwell, Sir J.

Shell, R. L.

Pringle, R.

Verner Colonel W.

Sinclair, G.

Vigors, N. C.

Stewart, E.

Walker, C. A.

Wallace, R.

Wallace, T.

Paired off in favour of Lord Ashley's Bill.

Fitzgerald, T.

Lennox, Lord W.

Fitzsimon, C.

Petre, Hon. E.

Hanmer, H.

Tennyson, C.

Harvey, D. W.

Vivian, Sir H.

Hughes, H.

For Lord Althorp's Motion.

Andover, Lord

Molesworth, Sir W.

Bowes, J.

Pelham, Hon. C.

Fazakerly, J. N.

Yelverton, Hon. W. H.

Kerry, Earl of

Marryatt, T.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented By the Marquess of LON DONDERRY, from St. James's, Clerkenwell, for Removing all present Restrictions from Dramatic Representations at the Minor Theatres.—By the Duke of CLEVELAND, from Bath, for Poor Laws to Ireland.

THE THELLUSSON PROPERTY.
Lord Lyndhurstrose for the purpose of moving the Suspension of the two Standing Orders, Nos. 95 and 99, relating to private Bills, in order to introduce the Bill, the outline of which he had last night stated to their Lordships. He thanked his noble friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury) for pointing out to him this course; and he was fully persuaded, that his noble friend was merely induced by a sense of the necessity of adhering to the Standing Orders, when he rose last night to object to the Bill being read a first time.
Lord Wynfordsaid, he could not concur in the propriety of suspending the Standing Orders of the House in the present instance without some reasons being adduced. No facts had yet been stated to the House why these Standing Orders should be suspended. It was unnecessary for him to dilate upon the usefulness of the Standing Orders; they had been adopted and acted upon, and had been found highly advantageous. With regard to the Standing Orders in question, their Lordships were aware that there required, before a private Bill could be presented, a petition to have been previously presented, embodying the facts to be proved, which petition was to be subsequently referred to two of the Judges, and then the Bill, upon the report of the Judges being favourable, was laid before their Lordships for consideration. With

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regard to the will of the testator, he was ready to admit that it sprung from vanity, he being desirous of being the founder of a most wealthy family. Had it not been for that vanity his name would have been buried in oblivion. The House, however, had to take care, in endeavouring to frustrate the intentions of the testator, in carrying into execution that piece of vanity, that injustice was not done to distant parties, who would be hereafter beneficially interested in the property bequeathed by him. It was, therefore, necessary that great caution should be observed. No reason had been assigned to call upon their Lordships to depart from their usual course of proceedings; and in opposing the suspension of the Standing Orders, he begged to add, that he should ask no vote upon it, and that in making the remarks he had, he had done so only from a sense of duty, for he was not unaware of the great hardship which the relations of the testator experienced from the manner in which he had thought fit to leave his property.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, it was not his intention, on the present occasion, to detain their Lordships at any length, especially as there was another important subject to be discussed that evening. In the course of his experience he recollected but one occasion of a case of an analogous nature to the present, in which the Standing Orders had been suspended, and he would proceed to state the circumstances of that case. A Bill was brought into their Lordships' House by the Marquess of Hastings to repeal the provisions of an Act which had been brought into Parliament by that noble Lord's father. It was contended, on that occasion, that the case ought to be sent to the Judges before the Bill could be entertained. The Bill, he ought to state, had reference to Scotch as well as English estates. But here came the question; which Judges were to be consulted?—the Scotch or English? It was said, that the English Judges could not regulate the Scotch property; so neither could the Scotch Judges the English property. It was, however, necessary either to refer to the English or Scotch Judges, or both, it was insisted, in order to have the necessary information upon the subject. He well recollected, however, that the House did him the honour to believe, that he knew something of both English and Scotch law as to the disposition of property
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in both countries, and he was appointed to report upon the case, which was referred to him, to the House. With regard to the proceedings of their Lord-ships on the matter brought before them, as respected Mr. Thellusson's will, he recollected that their Lordships were anxious to set it aside; but they felt that they could not interpose, for the law had given him the power to make his will, which had been decided was a valid testament. And what were their Lordships now required to do, supposing the Bill were introduced? Why neither more nor less than in effect to revoke that will. It was asking the Legislature to destroy a portion of the will at least. There was another reason why the case ought to go before a Judge, that an investigation might be made into all the facts. He (the Earl of Eldon) had never heard a single complaint when he presided in the Court of Chancery as to the costs and charges with respect to the suit, and he was so startled on hearing his noble and learned friend make the representation he had done last night about the costs and charges of the administration of the property of the testator, that he determined to make an inquiry this morning into the subject. He had done so, and the result was, that great misapprehension upon that topic had arisen. If he had seen his noble and learned friend this evening on entering the House, he should have made him acquainted with the result of that inquiry, and should have assured him that he had been misinformed upon the subject of those costs and expenses. Having said thus much, he would only add a wish, that his noble friend near him (the Earl of Shaftesbury), would state what his experience was with regard to suspending the Standing Orders in question.
The Earl of Shaftesbury,having been appealed to, had no difficulty in stating what his experience was upon the subject. He only recollected another instance in addition to that just stated by his noble and learned friend, and that was with respect to a Bill relating to the Sergeant's Inn property, which was introduced during the last Session of Parliament. Now the Judges having property in that Inn, it was considered unnecessary to refer the case to any one in particular, and the Standing Order was accordingly dispensed with. He did not offer a single word on the present occasion with respect

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to the object of the Bill which his noble and learned friend had last night detailed; but How he might be permitted to suggest, that the object might be equally attained by referring the Bill to the Judges, as though the Standing Orders were suspended, provided that object could be legally attained. He must, however, earnestly entreat their Lordships to consider well ere they suspended the Standing Orders, lest, by so doing, a precedent should be established.
The Lord Chancellor, in reply to the observation made by his noble and learned friend, who had asserted, that he had heard no complaints as to the cost and charges of administering the property of the testator during the period that he presided in the Court of Chancery, said, he was not surprised that his noble and learned friend should have heard no such complaint; nor would he even up to the present moment, had he still continued to hold the Great Seal. But it was not the case with him (the Lord Chancellor), nor his noble and learned friend who had immediately preceded him (Lord Lyndhurst), for they had heard complaints of that description. No complaint, however, had reached his noble and learned friend (the Earl of Eldon). It was not likely that any should reach his ears from the Masters'-office for the clear sum of 700 l. or 800 l. a-year was there reaped owing to the existence and continuance of the suit. It was counted upon as a yearly income to that amount in the Masters'-office. Besides this, the other officers in the Court of Chancery, who had as good reasons for their silence, would be naturally as slow to complain. Then it had been argued in that Court, that the accumulation would be immense. Instead, however, of the notion being realized that the property would accumulate to 90,000,000 l. or 100,000,000 l. in the coarse of years—that it would be augmented to an extent, which, by possibility, might be dangerous to the Constitution—the increase had been so small as to be scarcely perceptible; and an extraordinary power was found to exist in a certain Court to retard this perilous accumulation, and render chimerical all the fears entertained of an overthrow, by means of this monstrous fund, of the established order of things. The accumulation of the property would not be checked by the Bill, it would go on to the full as rapidly, or more so, than
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at present. It was clear, thierefore (accumulation being tile testator's object), that 'neither in letter nor in spirit would the will be violated by the measure. He trusted that the House would show itself disposed so far to entertain the Bill as to speed it in its progress. This was a peculiar and single case, which could never again occur; consequently, the present proceeding could not be drawn into a precedent, inasmuch as no ground for its repetition could arise. He could not but think, where a great deal of substantial justice and mercy was to be rendered to an unfortunate family, that it would be a pity to allow mere forms to stand in the way of the proceeding.
The Earl of Mansfieldobserved, that the question was not as to the merits of the Bill, but whether there was anything in its character, or the circumstances connected with it, that formed a justification for suspending those Standing Orders which had been adopted for the protection of the rights of individuals. He confessed that he could see no grounds for doing so. He called upon their Lordships to proceed with caution, and refrain from an infringement on those rules and orders which were intended to guard the rights and property of individuals, and prevent the House from being taken by surprise.
Lord Ellenboroughthought the question was one of the greatest importance; and suggested, that in order to get over the difficulties in the way of their Lordships in granting the sought-for relief, the peculiar circumstances of the case might be embodied in a Resolution, recommending, on account of those peculiar circumstances, the suspension of the Standing Orders. This, he thought, might obviate the objection to the suspending of the Standing Orders, and enable their Lordships to give the relief sought for by the family of Mr. Thellusson.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that the object was to prevent the funds from being unnecessarily wasted, and also to give relief to the family who were in a state of destitution. The costs had already amounted to the enormous sum of 105,000 l. The costs had been averaged by the Accountant-general by taking the average of the last twelve years, and it was not unfair to assume, that they would go on in the same ratio for the future. It was said by his noble and learned friend (Lord Eldon) that no complaint had ever been made

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upon the subject of these costs. Certainly not, for they were only the regular costs; but it was because they were only the regular costs that the necessity became greater for putting an end to them. Making the calculation upon the average he had Stated, the taxed costs for the whole period, from the time the will was made until it should expire would amount to a sum no less than 250,000 l. The course he proposed for adoption was not without precedents. In the case of the Marquess of Hastings all the Standing Orders had been suspended. In the case of Sir J. Soane's Museum Bill the Standing Order for referring the matter to the Judges had been suspended. He held in his hand no less than fifteen cases, which he had lighted upon only that morning, in which most important Standing Orders had been suspended. He would also request their Lordships to recollect that this case could never be made a precedent for others. It was an insulated case. Such a case could never occur again, for an Act of Parliament had been passed to prevent in future such a disposition of the property. It was said, that the object of the Bill was to run counter to the testator's will; but he denied the assertion, the very opposite of which was the fact. By the present mode of administering the property in the Court of Chancery, a certain amount was absorbed yearly. Now, the testator never intended this; he did not mention the Court of Chancery in his will. Surely, then, it was not interfering with the will to say, that the property was no longer to be so administered, that 5,000 l. a year should be so transferred to Masters, Clerks, and Solicitors, when it might be better devoted to the necessities of a family which was suffering great privation and distress. He should move, that the Standing Orders be suspended with the intention of pressing his Motion to a division.
The Duke of Wellingtonmeant to vote for the proposition of his noble and learned friend. It might have been wiser on the part of the family to have made an application in the earlier part of the Session, and, by petitioning, to have proceeded according to the rules and orders of the House; but it was probable that they might not have been able to obtain at an earlier period than the present the requisite signatures to such a petition. To allow, therefore, another Session to pass without
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affording relief to this family, was, what he felt confident, none of their Lordships would wish, and he hoped they would not refuse their sanction to the course proposed to be adopted.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that the only ground stated by the noble Duke for agreeing to the Motion was, the lateness of the Session, which might otherwise prevent this family from obtaining the relief they sought for. He could not think, however anxious he might be to afford relief, that he should be justified on such grounds in consenting to a suspension of the Standing Orders.
Earl Greynever found himself in greater difficulty than upon that occasion. He confessed that he was much struck with the statement of the noble and learned Lord, and he was most anxious to set aside this unjust and cruel will. He had every disposition to give facility to the object in view; but he felt the difficulties in the way of their Lordships very strongly. The merits of the question appeared to him to have nothing to do with the present Motion. The question before their Lordships was simply this—whether the Standing Orders of the House, which had been framed with the view of protecting the property of the kingdom, should be suspended, without a proper and sufficient reason for so doing being assigned. If no sufficient reason could be assigned, standing there as guardians of the property of the country, they would do well to pause before they suspended the Standing Orders of the House. He had heard nothing whatever to show, that the family might not have signed a petition at an earlier period. He felt, therefore, obliged to state, that, with every disposition to give relief to this family, he found the standing orders in his way; and he did not know how their Lordships could get over this difficulty without doing that, which he conceived, would be a dereliction of their duty. He thought the better course to be pursued, in order to relieve their Lordships from this difficulty, would be, for the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his Motion for the present, in order to give an opportunity to the family to present a petition to the House.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that on the previous evening he had stated, that he should be able to present a petition signed by all the adult members of the family, but he was afraid he could not present a petition signed by all the parties concerned. There

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were parties interested as trustees to this property; and he had a letter from one of them—a Mr. Wood, in which he willingly consented, to what he conceived to be a fair and just arrangement. He feared, however, that he could not present to their Lordships any hope of a similar sanction from the others.
The Duke of Hamiltonwas inclined to go as far as possible, in order to give relief to the family, but he had a strong objection to vote for suspending the Standing Orders, which he conceived ought to be held sacred. If the question could be brought forward separated from a violation or suspension of the Standing Orders, he should be ready to give it his best consideration.
The Marquess of Salisburybelieved, that every noble Lord was willing, if possible, to give the desired relief. The whole of the family were petitioners to their Lordships. They had not, he admitted, signed a formal petition, because the law required that such a petition should be signed by the trustees of the property, who were unwilling to sign such a petition. Their Lordships could readily understand, that the trustees, not being members of the family, had an interest in spending large sums in newly furnishing houses that ought to be sold, and also in shooting over certain lands, which interests would induce them to oppose a measure like the present. He should certainly give his vote that the Standing Orders should be suspended. The property, he believed, was managed in a most expensive manner, and an opportunity ought, therefore, to be given for their Lordships to examine evidence at the bar of the House upon the subject.
The Marquess of Lansdownfelt the greatest anxiety to afford relief to the family which was thus suffering under the administration of the law; but still he thought it was the duty of their Lordships, after laying down standing orders for the conduct of business, to adhere to those orders as closely as possible, and to depart from them only where injustice would be done by adhering to them. He could well understand, that the trustees might have reasons for not concurring in the petition, and there might yet be ample reasons why the House should dispense with the signatures of the trustees; but before their Lordships did even that, it was their duty to satisfy themselves, that all the adult members of the family were ready to sign such a petition. He would not object to
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the Motion if their Lordships were in formal possession of that, which they knew already from the statement of the noble and learned Lord. When their Lordships should be in possession of such information, then would be the time, in his opinion, to consider whether they would not waive the signatures of the trustees. His object was, that their Lordships should proceed upon the foundation of an authentic document, and he hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would require that a petition should be presented.
Viscount Melbourneentirely agreed in the proposition, that the Standing Orders should not be suspended unless upon very strong grounds; but he begged to ask their Lordships, if there could be stronger grounds than were laid down in the statement of the noble and learned Lord, for adopting such a course. This was a case which had long been a disgrace and a scandal to the country. The case was one of such a character that he hoped their Lordships would not allow a regard for mere forms to stand in the way of the administration of substantial justice. These forms would not only stand in the way of, but would even defeat justice, if it should be found eventually impossible to comply with the Standing Orders.
The Duke of Buckinghamobjected to forming a new precedent—that of proceeding in such a matter without any previous petition. He had, however, no wish to negative the proposition; but why not amend it I Why not move as an Amendment, that a Committee be appointed to consider whether any grounds could be shown for such a suspension of the Standing Orders? If he were forced to give a vote as the question at present stood, he must vote against suspending the Standing Orders.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that their Lordships were at present not in possession of the sentiments of the family of the testator; and he suggested, therefore, that the noble and learned Lord should abstain from pressing his Motion until a petition from the family should have been presented. If the noble and learned Lord should not adopt this course, he should feel it his duty to vote against the noble Lord's proposition.
Lord Lyndhurst,after what had fallen from the noble Lords, who had spoken in the course of the discussion, would suggest, that the better course to be adopted would be to adjourn the debate until Thursday

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next, in Older to give an opportunity of presenting a petition in the mean time.
The debate adjourned.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER,
The Marquess of Lansdown moved the Order of the Day, for the House to take into consideration the Resolutions agreed to by the House of Commons on the subject of the East-India Company's Charter. The Order was read, and the Resolutions having also been read,
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that he had then to call upon their Lordships to consider of the propriety of concurring; in Resolutions, already agreed to by the House of Commons, upon the subject of the East-India Company's Charter. He was perfectly aware, in offering himself to their Lordships' attention, that, important as the subject certainly was, yet it was one, whether on account of the remoteness of the interests concerned, or whether because of the confidence reposed upon the authorities acting in that quarter of the world, that had not often been brought under their Lordships' consideration; and, whenever it had been so brought under the notice of the House, it had seldom found a willing audience. He persuaded himself, however, that, if ever there was a time when so remote a subject could engage their attention—if ever there was a time when their Lordships might be expected to bear patiently with those who sought to interest them in details concerning such a remote country, consisting, indeed, of the largest territory possessed by any European Power, and inhabited by 100,000,000 of people—that time was the present; when their Lordships were called upon to consider and determine what should be the character of the government, and what the principles of the system, to be established for regulating such a country and such a people. He trusted, therefore, that he should experience the indulgence of their Lordships, while he trespassed on their attention, to explain, though it would be very imperfectly, the principal outlines of that system, which was contained in the Re solutions before them, and which his Majesty's Ministers proposed for the adoption of the Legislature. It was quite unnecessary for him to go into an historical review of the growth and progress of the power and commerce of the East-India Company since its first establishment in
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the sixteenth century, through the successive renewals of its Charter at different intervals; it was sufficient for him to say, that the renewals were at all times the subject of discussion, which brought into active, if not angry collision, all the political and commercial interests involved in the question, and all the diversities of principle which at the different periods had agitated and divided the Legislature. All that was necessary for him to observe on this point was—and it was an observation that applied to all the renewals of the Charter, and all the acts arising out of them—that Parliament had, when called upon to legislate on the subject, however confident it might be in the justice and policy of what it was about to do, never sought to bind posterity, or to perpetuate the principles upon which it acted; but, anticipating the possibility of changes in that empire, as well as in the state of this country, which might lead to the necessity of changes, equally as great, in the Charter, though it could not, by any possibility, anticipate the very extraordinary changes which had come to pass, the Parliament had always renewed the Charter for short periods only, thus, not only inviting, but binding Parliament to a frequent reconsideration of the subject, and of all the principles on which the Charter should be renewed, and the trade and possession of India preserved. He had also to state, that there had been a frequent, if not a perpetual attempt, on the part of individuals, sometimes under the character of merchants, but sometimes under that of interlopers, to share in the profits of the trade; while, on the part of the community, frequent attempts had been made to obtain the repeal of the Charter. Looking at all these circum stances, and at all the knowledge and experience that had been acquired of that part of the world, directed, too, by their improved acquaintance with the best interests of commerce, their Lordships were called on, by these Resolutions, to adopt greater changes than had hitherto been made in the administration of East-Indian affairs. To those changes he was now about to call their attention. The first was, that the trade with China should be entirely open; the second, that the Company should no longer continue that trade as a Company, although they were to be invited to retain the management of the alfairs of India, in the name and on the

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behalf of the Government of this country. He should begin his observations with that part of the subject which related to the trade of China. It was one of the most extraordinary features attending; the history of the East-Indian dominion, that so large a branch of commerce as one involving the interests of 300,000,000 of people (at least such he was informed was the opinion of those who had the best opportunity of knowing China) should be the exclusive possession of one body of merchants; and that so large a population as was contained in India, should be a mere dependency in the hands of one trading Company. That trade, he admitted, had grown and flourished under the superintendence of the Company. It was now nearly a century and a-half since those extensive regions had been discovered to grow that article which was the chief object of our trade with them. It was about that time, in the reign of Charles 2nd, that the well known Mr. Pepys, then Secretary to the Admiralty, mixed his cup of China grain, of which he gave so lively an account in his Memoirs, as a curious experiment. That was the earliest introduction of a herb of which thirty millions of pounds were now imported into this country, which was now the cheap luxury of both rich and poor, and cheaper, he hoped, it would soon be, as it was the chief comfort and refreshment at the fire-side of the humblest cottage in every part of the kingdom. He had said, that this trade had flourished under the Company. He was not desirous of withholding his tribute of praise from the Company's officers, to whom at different times this trade had been much indebted, but he could not go the length of admitting, with some who had taken part in these discussions, that the monopoly of the Company was the only talisman by which the trade could be opened to this country, or that the Company was the only channel by which the growth and produce of that great and fertile empire could be conveyed to that people who were the most desirous to consume, and the most able to purchase the article. Notwithstanding that opinion, which he entertained now, and which he had ventured to form many years ago, in opposition to some of the oldest and greatest authorities, when Chairman of the Committee of Foreign Trade, which investigated at that time the whole of the subject, yet
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not being prepared, from the then state of the Charter, to come forward with any specific recommendation, or any practical law, he had waited with anxiety to see his opinions confirmed by experience, which was the only satisfactory test of their truth. It so happened, that a combination of circumstances had occurred to afford their Lordships the opportunity of judging, not by theories, but by the evidence of facts—from the state of our commerce with Canton—and from the success of those adventurers whom circumstances had brought into those ports, independently of the Company, what was the degree of success with which the trade of China might be carried on if conducted by individuals. It was true, that the incorporated Company had continued to trade thither, but it was also true, that others had gone thither to trade—Europeans, as well as traders from the United Stales of America, and, finally, the private traders of India; and it should be made apparent to their Lordships, that not only one, but all these private traders had carried on their commerce to greater advantage than the East-India Company had been able to do, and that the East-India Company's trade had been a falling trade during the latter part of the time, while that of the persons he had mentioned had been an improving and flourishing trade. Ha hold in his hand a paper which would show the results of the imports of the East-India Company during the first and last years of the period that had elapsed since the last renewal of their Charter. The imports made by the Company into the port of Canton in the years 1813 and 1814, were valued at 5,646,000 dollars. In the years 1831–2, the last during which, under the present Charter, the accounts could be made up—at this time, the value of the imports was taken at 3,691,688 dollars. During the same periods the traders of the United States had imported goods into the port of Canton, to the amount, in the years 1815–16, of 2,527,500 dollars, and in 1831 and 1832, to the amount of 3,050,937 dollars. He was aware that, in the American trade, there had been great fluctuations in the intermediate time, but in the result, and on the whole it had been a gaining trade. He could refer to the evidence of Mr. Bates on this subject, and it would appear, that the American trade had been the means of carrying out a great quantity

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of English manufactures to Canton, a proof, indeed, that the trade with that place, though not carried on by the Company, was the means of administering largely to the employment of the industry of this country. But that was not the only part of this case which was entitled to their Lordships' attention, for during the same time an extensive field of enterprise had been opened under the very eyes of the Company, by the individual merchants of this country, which might be proved on reference to the official account of the imports into China. He would refer to the Company's exports from India, and compare its amount to that of the exports made by individual merchants during the same period. In 1814, the exports of private traders from India into China amounted in value to 6,035,128 dollars—while, in 1831–32, it was more than doubled, for it reached 16,848,553 dollars. To show that the East-India Company's trade with Canton was a losing trade, as well as a declining trade, he should quote a paper, showing how much their profits had diminished between the years 1823 and 1832. In the former year it was 1,117,532 dollars; in the latter it was 683,844. He, therefore, thought it impossible to maintain the argument which had frequently been maintained upon high authority—namely, that the character of the government of China was utterly incompatible with individual enterprise and industry. He believed, that this was one of the many instances which occurred, and which were not confined to Europe and the East, but seemed to be in immediate operation every where, that the maxims of Government in many places seemed to say one thing, while in practice the conduct of Government materially differing from its maxims was another. If their Lordships would consider what was the character of the Chinese people, and the field of commerce in which they were engaged, they would find that whatever was the principle of Government with respect to trade, the disposition to trade was the characteristic of the people, and must be the real wish of the Government. There was little doubt, that if in the Court of the Emperor any one should adopt and express the opinions that the people of the north stood in need of the woollens, or the people of the south required the cottons of England, or that any part of the empire wanted the skins of America, or that the
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people on the other side of the globe were better able to pay for their tea than their own mandarins, there could be little doubt that such opinions once regarded as nothing less than heretical might be prosecuted by a Chinese Attorney General in the courts of the celestial empire, and would no doubt be punished; but he believed it was not less true, that from the highest to the lowest mandarin, all acted as if they felt the persuasion that foreign commerce was necessary to the prosperity of the Chinese empire. The whole of the Eastern Archipelago was in a state of activity by their labours. Mines were worked, pepper was grown, sugar was planted, and the whole of the agriculture of Java was performed by them, and all the products of these various branches of their industry were carried from place to place in Chinese junks, upon as extensive and perfect a system of commerce as ever was developed by any people in the world; and the Chinese government, despotic as it was, did not dare actually to oppose itself to the wishes of the people. When the noble Lord opposite alluded to opium as one of the articles prohibited by the Government, he had, in truth, adverted to a fact confirming the position already laid down; for, in opposition to the nominal prohibition of that drug, there was really a most extensive use of it, and the Chinese government were not able to prohibit it, the prohibition being contrary to the wishes of the Chinese people. It was true that it had been made the subject of consideration, but the Report addressed to the empire, in the very respectful words customary among the people of the East, declared, that "if it pleased the Emperor, he might undoubtedly extinguish the trade of the Europeans, but that such a course would be inconsistent with the tenderness his Majesty had been accustomed to show to foreigners, and that it would be more in accordance with that tenderness to allow them to trade, but to impose a duty upon the articles they imported." That Report was not very far inferior in knowledge of political economy to that which we had shown when twenty years ago we first discovered that a wholesale system of prohibition was injurious, and when we imposed duties on articles in its stead. In the same manner there were laws in China which prohibited the advance of money by Europeans to Chinese; did that law take effect? There

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were papers on their Lordships' Table which proved quite the contrary. It was known that, under the eye of the authorities, there were continually loans made by Europeans to enable the Chinese to trade; and the East-India Company having diminished the amount of their advances, the Americans who had interfered in so many ways, and done so much injury to the Company's trade, had stepped in and made large advances to individuals in China for the purpose of carrying on trade. He thought he had said enough to satisfy their Lordships, looking both to facts and to figures, that it was time that individual enterprise and British trade and commerce should be fully admitted into that great field which they could most usefully cultivate; enlarging the demand for British manufactures in China, and extending that commerce which had rather decayed of late years while exclusively in the hands of the East-India Company. By their large importations the industry of the country would be benefited, and from the competition thus occasioned a great reduction in the price of tea would, he believed, necessarily follow. It might be said, as in fact it had been argued, that the private trade was owing to the protection afforded by the East India Company's Factory; but from a very curious correspondence which had taken place at Canton, it would seem, that the Chinese, at least the Hong merchants, knew very well the nature of the Company, that they expected the intended alteration, and anticipated from it no other difficulty, but that of providing a proper Magistrate to act in the place of the Factory, and decide any disputes which might arise between individuals. To that correspondence, which was to be found in the Report presented to the House of Commons, he should beg to refer their Lordships. That would show, that the Chinese had a full knowledge of our trade, and that, far from desiring the continuance of the present system, they wanted nothing but that which their Lordships must endeavour to provide—namely, the means of regulating and ordering the proceedings among Europeans, so that there might be some responsible authority. In Canton, notwithstanding all that was said of the unwillingness of the Chinese government to give encouragement to commerce, there were facilities for carrying on trade which were scarcely exceeded in the port of London,
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nor even in the port of Liverpool, which, of allothers in the world, was believed to otter the greatest advantages to the influx of foreign trade. Their Lordships, no doubt, would act with due respect to the general principles of commerce, and, adopting them as guides, as well as taking advantage of their experience, they would consult the best interests of the country by adopting the Resolutions now proposed to them, and throw open the China trade, taking only those precautions which would ensure the establishment of an authority before which the disputes of the Europeans and Chinese might be determined. It would appear, as he must further remark, from the papers on the Table of the House, that in the mode of conducting their trade, and sending their remittances—for the Company had imported more from China than they had exported thither—they had been obliged to lean on the aid of private merchants—a fact, which showed in a curious manner, how monopoly was often compelled to depend on free trade for assistance. Having thus spoken on the question of the China trade, he now came to the subject of the East Indies themselves. If the trade in China was, as he had shown it to be, a falling trade, that which had been carried on in the East Indies was a losing trade altogether. A serious apprehension had been entertained, and even stated in Parliament, by a noble friend of his, now, unhappily, lost to that House, but whose memory would be long gratefully esteemed by his fellow-countrymen—he meant Lord Grenville—an apprehension had been entertained, and stated by that noble Lord when the East-India Charter was last renewed, arising out of that anxiety for the interests of the commerce of the country which had always distinguished him, that by the power left under the last Charter to the East-India Company, the interests of the private trader, though to a certain degree consulted, might be and would be defeated altogether. But so powerful was the genius of free trade—so great was the energy of the English merchant—that they had falsified all the predictions of his noble friend, and had compelled the East-India Company to retreat as a trading company before the superior power, activity, and industry of individuals. He would stale as briefly as he could the result of this competition. He had drawn it up in averages of five years, and he knew of

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no other way in which the futility of the attempts of the East India Company to carry on trade as a trading company could be so forcibly exposed as by comparing the amount of their exports to the East, and their imports from the East, with the amount of the exports and imports of the private traders. The average amount of the five years ending 1818, of the value of cottons of every description, printed and plain, exported to the East by the East India Company was 110 l.; the average amount of the cottons exported during the same time by the private trader was 87,168 l. The average amount of the same article for the five years ending in 1823, was by the Company 342 l., by the private trader 217,046 l. In the five years ending with 1828, the average value of the exports of cottons of the Company amounted to 31 l., and of the private traders to 224,381 l. In 1830, the Company exported nothing, and the private traders exported to the value of 185,940 l. Although it was natural to select the article of cotton, as that was a trade in which this country was most deeply interested, yet it must not be imagined that this was all, for he could state the same with respect to other branches of trade, which, though not of equal magnitude, yet were most important. He would take the article of earthenware. In 1830, the Company ex ported 42,000 pieces of earthenware, and the private trader, in the same year, 1,245,860 pieces, showing, that in this trade as in that of cotton, the private traders had been much more extensively employed than the Company. He next came to speak of what the Company had imported from the East, except China, and of what the private traders had imported, and he found that there, although the Company were accustomed to make large purchases, yet the produce was larger on the part of the private trader. In 1814, the exports of cotton wool from their own dominions by the Company amounted to 366,691lbs.; the quantity exported by the private trader amounted to 2,483,627lbs. In 1830, the exports by the Company amounted to 620,330lbs.; by the private trader to 11,892,536lbs. In the same manner the exports from their own dominions of indigo, in 1830, amounted, by the company, to 2,154,341lbs.; and, by the private trader, to 5,772,516lbs. In the year 1814, the export of refined Sugar by the Company was 412,40lcwt.;
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and by the private trader, in the same year, it was only 3,148 cwt.; but, in the year 1830, the export by the company was 158,358 cwt.; and by the private trader, in the same year, 660,729 cwt. He was unwilling to trouble their Lordships by entering more fully into these statements, but he believed that it was impossible for any person to peruse the ample documents on their table, as well as those communicated by the other House, without coming to a distinct and decisive conclusion on the subject. There never was, he believed, a question more thoroughly examined and more developed in all its bearings, more proved by principle and more confirmed by detail, than this of opening the trade to China and India. The Committee of the House of Commons had been assisted in their inquiries by individuals in the service of the Government and of the Company—individuals of as great ability and of as great industry and zeal as could be anywhere found. Those inquiries had been organized and directed by an hon. Gentle man, of whose services the public had been most unhappily deprived—he meant the late Secretary of the Board of Control, Mr. Hyde Villiers, by whose assistance the inquiry of the Committee of the other House of Parliament had been conducted, and who had given them so much and such valuable information, that if anything could add, that circumstance must add much to the regret they must feel at the loss the public had sustained by his death. He begged pardon for this digression. Having stated these general circumstances, he thought that their Lordships would be prepared to come to the conclusion, that the Company could not longer continue as a trading Company with advantage to itself or the country. It had been stated, that the Company could not trade in India, and govern India, without having the assistance of the trade of Canton. That led him to the question, whether they should longer be permitted to trade as a Company to India, however fit it might be that they should continue to administer the government of that country. That one or other of these things should be abandoned, he had no doubt. Though there had been many instances, in barbarous and uncivilized countries, in which Government and trade had been blended in one person, it was impossible that it should be

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so without the character of the Government suffering from the principles of the trader, or the usefulness of the trader being-lost in the authority of the Government. From the circumstances he had stated, it was evident, that there must have been a considerable loss suffered by the Company. From the laudable wish to administer their Government properly, and from the very proper desire to attend to the interests of their subjects, they had, perhaps, gone a little beyond the mark; and out of the perpetual conflict between territory and trade, and out of the difficulties of making up such accounts as should satisfy Parliament or the country, they had been led into the state of things, in which they had found themselves compelled to abandon one trade after another to private individuals, who had at last really made themselves, in fact, masters of the commerce of India. It might, perhaps, be asked, why, if they took their trade away, the territorial Administration should still be vested in the Company, and the reasons for this he was not unprepared to state to their Lordships. When they considered the many and important advantages which had accrued to the people of India, and of this country, from that Administration—when they considered the number of useful and able servants trained up by and now in its service—when they considered the importance, in a part of the world where public opinion was so delicate of maintaining, unimpaired, a body whose utility in intervening between all party conflicts in this country had been so often manifested—when they considered that in that body was vested an immense patronage, which, amidst political changes, neither Government nor Parliament could scramble for—when they considered that in their new and undivided character as Sovereigns alone, the East India Company would be enabled still more than before to maintain and extend the great interests confided to them—and when their Lordships considered that the Company would still be accountable to Parliament for the course they might hereafter adopt—he trusted all would agree with him in the wisdom and propriety of this portion of the plan for the settlement of the question. It was certainly his decided opinion, that when the Company was relieved from its functions as a trading body, which had undoubtedly interfered with its functions as a governing body, it would manage
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even more usefully than before the internal affairs of that great empire, which it had hitherto regulated with so much credit to itself and so much benefit to its subjects. Here he should be disposed to close that part of his observations which had reference to the grounds on which these important arrangements were to be made; but, having stated the grounds, it was now necessary for him to explain the mode in which it was proposed to carry those arrangements into effect. It was proposed that on the trading of the Company ceasing, its territory should be made over to the King's sovereignty, subject to all the Company's liabilities—that the Company should make over to the King's Government all its assets, funds, &, both here and elsewhere, subject, of course, to all the demands now outstanding against them—that, in return for these concessions from the Company and its proprietors the King's Government should take upon itself, on the part of the territory so vested in the Government, to provide for the payment of the dividends now due from it, to the amount of 630,000 l. a-year—that it should also undertake to provide for those demands not chargeable on the assets, but on the territory of the Company—that, besides providing for this annual sum of 630,000 l., Government should provide a further fund of 2,000,000 l. to accumulate for forty years, to pay off that annuity—and that at the end of forty years, the said annuity of 630,000 l. should be redeemable at the rate of 5l. 5s. for every 100 l. Their Lordships must now be informed of the degree in which these assets were likely to be available to the Government, and of the mode by which it was hoped that this arrangement would not be onerous to the Company's territory in India. He hoped that their Lordships would bear with him while he stated how the account stood of the Company's assets, and of the demands made upon them, and also whilst he stated the amount of the territorial revenue, and the chance that there would be a surplus after the annuity of 630,000 l. was paid. Their Lordships would recollect, that the proprietors were to have an annuity of 630,000 l, paid to them out of the territorial revenues, and also a guarantee fund of 2,000,000 l. to accumulate for forty-years. Now, the Company's commercial assets, as stated by them, were valued at 21,645,557 l., including 4,811,000 l. ad

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mitted to be due from territory and independent of their commercial property in India. To this sum was to be added for old claims due from their territory 8,616,113 l., making the total of their nominal assets amount to 30,261,270 l. He had already anticipated one observation which he had intended to make on this subject. There Lordships were well aware that in the estimate of the assets of any individual there could be no certainty that their value founded on their original cost would subsequently be realized. He should be misleading their Lordships and the country, if he were to assert that this large amount of assets would be realized. What deductions must be taken from it was, of course, matter of uncertain speculation. But, on referring to the accounts to enable themselves to form a judgment on the point, their Lordships would see that a variety of deductions must be made, arising from the difficulty of disposing of the property, from the decay to which some of it was liable from the depreciation which was taking place in every species of security, and from the deterioration of many commodities now on hand. Now the assets here, according to the assumed depreciated value, were 12,970,036 l. Besides this there was positively due from territory to commerce 4,811,000 l. That made together a total of 17,781,000 l. Sup-pose this to be realized in cash in May, 1834, at a discount of four per cent for a year and a-half, this will lessen it by 420,000 l. and then there will remain 17,361,000 l. For these assets the territory has to pay the guarantee fund 2,000,000 l., and as compensation to parties, 800,000 l. This reduced 17,361,000 l. to 14,561,000 l. Now, the interest on that sum at five per cent, was 728,077 l. The territory was charged with 718,000 l. in this manner. There was 630,000 l. available for dividends, and 88,000 l. for the payment of the bond debts, making together, as he had said before, 718,000 l. There was, therefore, on this point a surplus of 10,077 l. of the assets above the charge. To this, as it was accumulating for the benefit of territory, should be added the interest of the guarantee fund, at 3½ per cent, amounting to 61,000 l., so that he anticipated that there would be a clear annual surplus of 71,000 l. odd arising from the assets over the charge. Their Lordships would also expect him to show that the territorial revenue of India was
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such as would allow the Government to provide for this additional charge of 630,000 l. without imposing additional taxation. He would not trouble their Lordships by going through the details of the revenue accruing to the three presidencies; he would simply state the result of it on an average of three years, subject to the deductions arising out of the reforms ordered by the Court of Directors, and now he believed, actually in progress. The revenue of the three presidencies, on an average of the three years 1828–9, 1829–30, and 1830–31, are about 18 crores, 51 lacs of rupees. The probable future charge on them would be about 16 crores, 54 lacs. Thus there would be a surplus revenue in India of 1 crore 96 lacs. He could not pass by this part of his statement without expressing on the part of the Government, the great satisfaction, and he might say gratitude, in which he was certain their Lordships would participate which the Government felt to be due to the present Governor General of India, for the unremitting vigilance and energy with which he had carried into effect the regulations in favour of economy transmitted to him by the directors at home. He believed that owing to the exertions of Lord William Bentinck, the administration of our Indian possessions had been maintained unimpaired; and that if it were true, that "peace had its victories not less renowned than war," his Lordship had had a most victorious career in India. He believed that under the auspices of that noble Lord, there had been a safe and effectual reduction made in the expenses of the Indian Government to the amount at which they stood before the Burmese war—a war which had undoubtedly led to an increase of expenditure, but which had now ceased to press upon the revenue. But to return from this digression. From this amount of surplus revenue, namely, 1 crore and 96 lacs, were to be deducted eight lacs for the expense of remittance and other charges. This reduced the surplus to one crore and 88 lacs; but to this again was to be added the balance of three lacs of the Carnatic revenue above the interest payable to the Carnatic creditors, leaving final surplus of one crore and 91 lacs. Now, if this were remitted at 1s. 11 d. the sicca rupee, it would produce 1,838,789 l. From this were to be deducted

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the territorial charges in England, excluding the expenses of St. Helena, which amounted to 1,640,000 l., leaving a final surplus of 198,789 l. No man could arrive at arithmetical preciseness in calculations of this kind. It would be sufficient for him if he could show, that the territorial revenue of India, without any increase of taxation, would be able to meet the annual charge of 630,000 l. to be now sustained by the British Government. He had stated his views of the different parts of this financial arrangement, and of the various grounds on which he ventured to recommend it to their Lordships. But he should be taking a very narrow view of this question, and one utterly inadequate to the great importance of the subject, which involved in it the happiness or misery of 100,000,000 of human beings, were he not to call the attention of their Lordships to the bearing which this question, and to the influence which this arrangement, must exercise upon the future destinies of that vast mass of people. He was sure that their Lordships would feel, as he indeed felt, that their only justification before God and Providence for the great and unprecedented dominion which they exercised in India was in the happiness which they communicated to the subjects under their rule, and in proving to the world at large, and to the inhabitants of Hindoostan, that the inheritance of Akbar (the wisest and most beneficent of Mahometan princes) had not fallen into unworthy or degenerate hands. Hence, it was important that when the dominion of India was transferred from the East India Company to the King's Government, they should have the benefit of the experience of the most enlightened Councillors, not only on the financial condition of our empire in the East, but also on the character of its inhabitants. He stated confidently, after referring to the evidence given by persons eminently calculated to estimate what the character of the people of India was, that they must, as a first step to their improved social condition, be admitted to a larger share in the administration of their local affairs. On that point their Lordships had the testimony of a series of successful experiments, and the evidence of the most unexceptionable witnesses, who had gone at a mature period of their life, and with much natural and acquired knowledge, to visit the East. Among the crowd of witnesses which he
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could call to the improveable condition of the Hindoo character, he would select only two; but those two were well calculated to form a correct judgment, and fortunately contemplated Indian society from very different points of view. Those two witnesses were Sir Thomas Monro and Bishop Heber. He could not conceive any two persons more eminently calculated to form an accurate opinion upon human character, and particularly upon that of the Hindoo tribes. They were both highly distinguished for talent and integrity, yet they were placed in situations from which they might have easily come to the formation of different opinions—one of then" being conversant with the affairs of the East from his childhood, and familiarized by long habit with the working of the system, and the other being a refined Christian philosopher and scholar, going out to the East late in life, and applying in India the knowledge which he had acquired here to form an estimate of the character of its inhabitants. He held in his hand the testimony of each of those able men, as extracted from their different published works, and with the permission of the House he would read a few words from both. Sir T. Monro in speaking of the Hindoo character said:—'Unless we suppose that they are inferior to us in natural talent, which there is no reason to believe, it is much more likely that they will be duly qualified for their employments than Europeans for theirs, because the field of selection is so much greater in the one than in the other. We have a whole nation from which to make our choice of natives, but in order to make choice of Europeans, we have only the small body of the Company's covenanted servants. No conceit more wild and absurd than this was ever engendered in the darkest ages; for what is in every age and every country the great stimulus to the pursuit of knowledge, but the prospect of fame, or wealth, or power; or what is even the use of great attainments, if they are not to be devoted to their noblest purpose, the service of the community, by employing those who possess them according to their respective qualifications in the various duties of the public Administration of the country? Our books alone will do little or nothing; dry simple literature will never improve the character of a nation. To produce this effect, it must

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open the road to wealth, and honour, and public employment. Without the prospect of such reward, no attainments in science will ever raise the character of a people.' That was the sound practical opinion of Sir T. Monro, founded on his experience, acquired in every part of India, in every department of the public service. Bishop Heber, during his extensive journey of charity and religion through India, to which he fell at length a martyr, used these remarkable expressions:—'Of the natural disposition of the Hindoo, I still see abundant reason to think highly, and Mr. Bayley and Mr. Melville both agreed with me, that they are constitutionally kindhearted, industrious, sober, and peaceable; at the same time that they show themselves, on proper occasions, a manly and courageous people.' And again. 'They are decidedly, by nature, a mild, pleasing and intelligent race, sober, parsimonious, and, where an object is held out to them, most industrious and persevering.' Their Lordships were therefore justified in coming to the same conclusion—a conclusion to which, indeed, they must come if they only considered the acts of this people in past ages—if they only looked at the monuments of gratitude and piety which they had erected to their benefactors and friends—for to India, if to any country, the observation of the poet applied—
"Sunt hic etiam sua præmia laudi,
Suntlacrymæ verum, et mentem mortalia tangunt."
But however, much civilization had been obscured in those regions, whatever inroads foreign conquest and domestic superstition had made upon their moral habits, it was undeniable that they had still materials left for improving and ameliorating their condition; and their Lordships would be remiss in the performance of the high duties which devolved upon them if they did not secure to the numerous natives of Hindoostan the ample development of all their mental endowments and moral qualifications. It was a part of the new system which he had to propose to their Lordships, that to every office in India every native, of whatsoever caste, sect, or religion, should be by law equally admissible, and he hoped that Government would seriously endeavour to give the fullest effect to this arrangement, which would be as beneficial to the people themselves as it would be advantageous to the economical reforms which were now in progress in different
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parts of India. There were other changes in the domestic arrangements of India which it was proposed to make on this occasion, and which he would now proceed to explain to the House. Great injury was experienced in India from the variety of laws which prevailed there. Their Lordships would find testimony borne by the Judges of the Supreme Court, and by the local Judges in the interior of the country, to the difficulty which they experienced in administering a system of law made up of patches of Hindoo, Mahometan, and European laws, and of a quantity of local custom, which bade defiance to the most zealous efforts of those whose duty it was to administer full and impartial justice to the people of India. To expect that a code of laws could be framed to meet all the wants of a people so various in origin, habits, and language, would be a hope too sanguine to indulge; but that some assimilation might be made between those conflicting laws, and that it should be settled, where there were two clashing laws, which of them should in future prevail, was a task which Government should attempt to accomplish, and for that purpose it was proposed to appoint a Commission, consisting of individuals best acquainted with the laws, practices, and customs of India. He might be asked whether anything was to be done for the institution of trial by Jury in India; on that point he would not venture to give any confident opinion. That in some places, and to a certain extent, it might be introduced with satisfaction to the people of Hindoostan he was disposed to indulge a hope; and it was a remarkable circumstance in the history of that country belonging to its antiquities, that an institution, analogous not to the trial by Jury as we now have it, but analogous to the trial by Jury as it existed among us in its first elements, the Pronchild long prevailed in Malabar. He hoped that that element might be converted to an important use in the administration of the law in that country; and it was not inconsistent with this view of the question to mention that, in a country resembling India, and indeed forming part of it, he meant Ceylon, the trial by Jury had been introduced by Sir Alexander Johnston with great effect, and that out of it arose the abolition of slavery in that country. Their Lordships would also have to consider the best means of carrying into effect in India the

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measures to which they had already agreed for the other parts of the empire, he meant the best means for the total abolition of slavery. He was aware that slavery in the east varied from slavery in the west, and that the abolition of it in the east might be attended even with greater difficulty than in the west; for slavery in the east was attended with circumstances of caste, &, over which the dominion of law had hitherto been able to exercise but little influence. The abolition of slavery must, therefore, be made with the restrictions and concessions which the importance of the subject demanded, and for that purpose it was proposed to appoint a Commission of Inquiry. He had now gone through most of the proposed changes in the system; but there was another which he must mention, which referred to the better government of the north-western provinces—the newly-acquired territory. It was here necessary that a firm and effectual Government should be established, for, owing to remissness in the administration of justice, caused by the seat of Government being so far removed, much inconvenience and mischief had accrued. The time would more properly arise on the discussion of the Bill for entering into the details on this subject; he confined himself at the present moment to a mere general outline. With the exception of one other point he had now gone through his statement. That point referred to the spiritual welfare of the natives. It had been found impossible for one Bishop to get through the vast duties appertaining to his office, and it was, therefore, proposed that the two Archdeacons should share his labours with him. Government had another intention. It was intended that Europeans should be admitted to all the old settlements of India without licenses; but that licenses should be necessary to admit them to the new settlements. On account of this it was pro-posed to vest greater authority in the Council with respect to the exercise of the law. If Europeans were admitted, and if they flocked to that country, as he hoped they would, the result would be of the greatest advantage to the civilization of the vast population of India. They would introduce into that vast territory all the arts, and all the sciences, and all the advantages attendant on them that could be expected from this country, which was the spot in which all that related to civiliza
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tion was concentrated; and that civilization would be diffused over the whole surface of India. It had been already seen that scarcely was the power of steam developed upon the Thames and upon the Clyde, than it was extended to India, and contributed to animate the waters of the Ganges. When such was the case—when invention" were communicated to so great a distance so speedily—it was natural to presume that the extension of science would be more rapid as the ingress of Europeans was more facilitated. Still it would be necessary, as Europeans were to be admitted to the old settlements without licenses, that they should be liable to some restrictions; and it was for that reason that more power was to be invested in the Government. All those that went to India Could not expect to be as little liable to control as in their own country; they could not expect to live with the indigenous inhabitants of that country as they lived with those of their own country; they could not expect that the native population would conform to their habits; and they should expect to be obliged to conform to the laws that Government should think proper to frame for the control of Europeans, as well as of other nations. He would here close the observations that he had thought lit to make in furtherance of the Resolutions he had introduced. In making those observations he thought himself justified in travelling beyond, perhaps, the sphere he ought to have confined himself to, and for this reason, because he thought that their Lordships would be called upon to examine the whole of what he had alluded to. He was sure that the principles of those Resolutions, if they should be acted upon, would extend and be enlarged beyond bounds that could not be well calculated; and without being at all too sanguine as to the result of the following up those principles, without calculating upon any extension of territory through them, he was confident that the strength of the Government would be increased by the happiness of the people over whom it presided, and by the attachment of those nations to it. It was for this that he would conclude by moving that their Lordships would concur in the Resolutions that had been communicated to them. The noble Marquess, in answer to a question from Lord Ellenborough, begged to remind that noble Lord that what he had

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said of the intention of adding additional power to the government of India referred only to the Supreme Government; that it was not intended to do so to other inferior governments. However, the intention formed no part of the Resolutions; it might be adopted afterwards, as might other changes independent of the Resolutions. But that would form a subject for future consideration and discussion.
The Resolutions having been read,
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, the alteration to be made in the Supreme Government and Councils was a point of the greatest importance, and he was surprised the noble Marquess had not adverted to it before, and had not then fully explained the intentions of his Majesty's Government. Neither the noble Marquess nor the Government was aware, apparently, of the importance of it. It was much more important than those details into which the noble Marquess entered so much at length. He would request their Lordships to allow him to carry back their attention to the points first adverted to by the noble Marquess, and he should be as brief as possible on this part of the subject. When he proposed a Committee to inquire into this subject in the year 1830, he stated to their Lordships that the question with respect to the China trade was entirely one of finance, and their Lordships would have to consider whether the East-India Company could meet the territorial charge without the monopoly of that trade being preserved. If the Company could, the Legislature might deal with that trade as it pleased, if it could not, provision must be made for that charge by some other means. From the moment he entered into that office, which was connected with the government of India, his first object was so to reduce the expenditure of the Indian government as to place the freedom of the China trade completely at the disposal of Parliament. This also had been the earnest desire of his noble predecessor (Lord Melville), as well as of all his colleagues. He thought that in two years more they might have secured that object, and they would, in that event, have been prepared to make the same proposition with respect to the China trade as that now made. He did not, however, then, any more than now, anticipate from the opening of that trade so many advantages as were by some persons so sanguinely anticipated. The great benefit which he
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expected to result would arise from the extension of the circuitous trade through the whole of the East; but he did not expect a great increase in the export of British manufactures to China. The noble Marquess had referred to some official documents on the subject of the East India Company's trade, but the noble Marquess did not seem to be aware that the imports of the Company amounted to 4,500,000 dollars, of which three-fourths were in British manufactures. The imports of America were 20,000,000 of dollars, of which one-eighteenth only was in British manufactures. The importation of goods by America had of late greatly decreased, and he did not, therefore, expect a great increase of trade in consequence of the measure now proposed except in the general circuitous trade of the East. He did not think it would be very desirable or safe that the people of this country should, immediately on opening the trade, send out large quantities of British goods to China. This, however, would not be a matter of much importance, because the advantage would be the same whether the trade was carried on by British capital directly from this country, or circuitously through the whole of the East. There was a considerable trade in opium and in cotton; but with respect to other articles the trade had fallen off, and he certainly apprehended a considerable injury to British interest, should our merchants rush hastily into this trade. He would not enter into the question whether it was important or not that such an establishment as that of the Company should be maintained at Canton. He had never doubted that even trade to China might be carried on by private individuals in the same way as the trade to China was carried on by the Americans. He thought, however, that on opening the trade and in terminating the Company's monopoly, some preparation and prudence were necessary in order to render that a safe measure, and to avoid a crisis in the mercantile world. He saw as yet no plan proposed by Ministers for substituting without risk or inconvenience a private trade for that of the Company. From the sudden cessation of the Company's trade he apprehended great injury at Canton, and considering the quantity of tea at present in store, he was apprehensive that improvident importations on the part of individuals would be attended with great

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loss to themselves, and with considerable diminution in the value of the assets of the Company, now to become the property of the Crown. The great object should have been to open the trade in such a way as was best calculated to prevent such consequences, and to effect it gradually, so as to benefit the private trader without injury to the Company. The noble Marquess had noticed the trade carried on by the Company with India, and had referred to that carried on by individuals, comparing one with the other, and proving that the latter had much increased; but the noble Marquess did not seem to be aware of the small increase in every other branch of traffic except that of cotton. The increase which took place in the importation of all other articles, in fifteen years subsequent to the last renewal of the Charter did not exceed 265,000 l. in value. The increase in the cotton trade to India had, he admitted, been enormous, arising from the great reduction of prices; but while he looked with pleasure to the increase in the export to India of British manufactured cotton, he could not help feeling much regret, taking as he did a warm interest in the welfare of the inhabitants of India, that the increase in British industry had been the ruin of many natives. It was not all gain, it was a gain to British manufacturers, but it was ruin to those of India. He concurred with the noble Marquess in thinking that the government of India might be carried on without any extraordinary assistance from other sources besides the territorial revenue. The statements, however, of the noble Marquess upon this head seemed inconsistent with the Returns from the Company, and from the India Board which had been laid upon the Table. He was of opinion in 1830, and continued still of that opinion, that if the plan which the Government of that day meant to pursue had been followed up no assistance would be necessary. He was prepared still to support that opinion and to co-operate with his Majesty's Government in acting on it; but if it were intended as had been intimated in another place, to limit the control of Government to general matters, laying down principles but leaving the details to subordinate officers, he had no hesitation in saying, that ruin to the finances of India must be the result. He believed, in truth, that the total ruin of their Indian finances would be the consequence, and this country would
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be eventually called upon to contribute large sums to meet the deficiency. Every hope now entertained of the adequacy of the territorial revenue would then be disappointed. He would state the grounds upon which he anticipated, in 1830, a surplus of revenue. [The noble Lord here read an average account of the surplus of the Indian revenue for the three years preceding May, 1824 and 1829. The result of which was, that after deducting the charges upon the revenue, and allowing for the increase in the debt occasioned by the Burmese war, the noble Lord estimated the clear surplus at 150,000 l.; but that he might not be accused of exaggerating the amount, he proposed to take it only at 100,000 l.] He must, however, remind their Lordships that this surplus was calculated on the supposition that it would be possible to reduce all the charges in India to the amount at which they stood in 1824, and from which they ought never to have varied. On the contrary, he thought it possible to reduce the charges even below that amount. Speaking of the revenue of India in 1824, he could not avoid performing a passing act of justice to the Marquess of Hastings. That noble-man had proved himself to be both great in peace and great in war. Whilst he governed India he established the finances of that country on the soundest possible foundation, and he wished to God that that nobleman had continued to govern India to the present day. He believed that this surplus of 100,000 l. would have been greatly increased by the improvement which had taken place in the state both of the ancient and new territories of the Company. There had been, it was true, a great falling-off in the revenue of late, not owing to the distress of the people of India, but to the great increase of cultivation, which reduced the price of produce so much as rendered it impossible to pay the whole money taxes. Besides this, he had in his mind other resources for increasing the surplus revenue of India. One plan was, to introduce into India the principle which had lately been acted upon in this country with respect to the mode of paying the judges. He proposed to give them and all officers of Courts of justice fixed salaries in place of fees and fines; and a Bill for that purpose was brought into the House of Commons by an hon. friend of his, which, however,

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was not proceeded with. He likewise contemplated the reduction of a Judge at Madras, besides the one already reduced. From these resources he calculated that he should have been able to derive an annual sum of 50,000 l. This was a large sum, but their Lordships should recollect that he proposed to get rid of one of the clerks in the Supreme Court at Calcutta, whose pay was greater than that of the Commander-in-chief. This gentleman received between 18,000 l. and 20,000 l. in fees. He had in view other reductions connected with the improvement of the Company's military forces, which, he believed, would have had the effect of removing every grievance at present felt by Europeans and native soldiers. He anticipated from these proposed alterations, besides an increased efficiency in the native army, an improvement in the revenue, in the year 1835, to the extent of 300,000 l. Before he quitted office he had collected all the information necessary to enable him to carry these changes into effect, and he left behind him a minute on the subject, but it had not been acted upon by his Majesty's present Ministers. It was also intended by the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) and himself, to throw on the revenue of India the whole expense of the government of Ceylon, which would have afforded a relief to the finances of this country to the extent of 90,000 l. His Majesty's present Ministers had, however, chosen to pursue a very different course, and had thrown the expense of the government of St. Helena on the finances of this country. The expense of the government of St. Helena and Ceylon together, amounted to 180,000 l., and a burthen to that extent had been thrown on the finances of this country, which would not have been imposed on them by the late Government. By these measures a surplus, amounting, if not to 150,000 l., certainly beyond 100,000 l. would have been secured; but according to the noble Marquess's plan, no surplus was provided, but, on the contrary, there was a deficiency. He could not understand that part of the statement as to surplus revenue made by the noble Marquess. For his own part, he was guided by the estimates laid on that Table, as well as by those of the East-India House. He steered a medium course between the two; and he found that, after calculating by each, there would be a deficit—at least so he anticipated
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—of half-a-million a-year, for by the present plan no reduction whatever could take place. The charges of the civil Government of Bengal were, from 1824 to 1829, about 95,000 l. a-year; now he felt it formerly possible to reduce every rupee of that by the surplus revenue that would have accrued from his plan, because, from his calculation, he would arrive at a surplus of 150,000 l. From that a reduction should be taken in the shape of a payment to the Company for advances made by it in behalf of the territory. The surplus he spoke of was, of course, according to the plan intended by the late Government, of which he formed part. He would now show, that there could no surplus arise out of the plan proposed by the noble Marquess; and he said that confidently, when he considered the increased charges that would follow the Government plan He would presently show their Lordships that the noble Marquess's calculation with respect to the amount of assets was altogether erroneous. The difference between 630,000 l. imposed on the territorial debt of India, and the interest paid off was 163,000 l. The assets, therefore, would only enable the Government to pay off such an amount of the remittable debt as gave an interest of 467,000 l. There was, therefore, a charge of 163,000 l. still to be met. The compensation given to commercial servants of the Company amounted to 56,000 l., and the sum hereafter to be given would amount at least to 150,000 l. It had been calculated at 200,000 l., but he preferred to take the lowest estimate. In addition, the Law Commission, composed of five members, each with a salary of 6,000 l. a-year, would entail an annual expense of 30,000 l. The Slave Commission would cost 30,000 l. more. But this was not the whole of the expenses attached to those Commissions. They were to travel about the country, and must, of course, be accompanied by secretaries, and a numerous establishment of officers. Then there was the Governor of Agra with 10,000 l., and four secretaries with 3,000 l. each; making a total of 22,000 l. The three new Members of Council would occasion a further expense of 30,000 l. and two new Bishops 10,000 l. more. It was impossible not to perceive from the details of the plan that the Governor-General was not intended to be fixed at Calcutta; it was proposed to

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make him a migratory Governor, and the lowest sum for which a Governor-General could travel through the country was 50,000 l. The Marquess of Hastings expended no less than 200,000 l. in the. course of his travelling. But how was it possible for the Governor-General to migrate without a government? If he was to administer the government during his travels, he must carry with him secretaries and an establishment of officers equal to a subordinate Presidency; and then the expense would exceed all calculation. The result was, that instead of a surplus being secured, according to the plan of the late Government, there would be a deficit, and an expense of 546,000 l. was incurred over and above the sum which would have been required if the course which the late Government proposed to follow had been adopted. He begged to suggest to the noble Marquess the propriety of discharging a portion of the non-remittable debt, instead of applying the funds at his disposal to the purpose of paying off the remittable debt. The noble Baron entered again into a variety of financial statements and calculations to justify the remarks he had just made.* The
* We subjoin the document which the noble Lord principally made use of in establishing his financial views:—

Prospective Finance of India.

Average surplus of revenue after paying all charges in India and in England, 1821–2, 1822–3, and in 1823–4

£. 898,000

But the surplus in the last of these years being only 340,000 l., the estimate is founded on that sum

340,000

Improvement of revenue up to 1828–9, as compared with average revenue of 1821–2, 1822–3, and 1823–4

800,000

This, without new charges, would give a prospective surplus of

1,140,000

But since 1823–4, the nett increase of the interest of the debt is

450,000

The advantage to India from the Board's rates of exchange, henceforth to be lost was, in the three years above compared (on the average)

444,000

The charge of the bond debt, henceforth to be thrown upon the territory, is

88,000

Together

982,000

Leaving a surplus of

158,000

The increase of the civil charges of India, from 1823–4 to 1828–9 (exclusively

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noble Marquess had alluded (the noble Lord continued) to the loss which the Company sustained from the mode in which their remittances were now made, which he calculated at 100,000 l. He (Lord Ellenborough) would suggest, though he did it with diffidence, for he was not much versed in such matters, that the best plan to obviate that would be to convert the remittable into an un-remittable debt, which might be done as it had been done before, by giving a trifling bonus. Losses to the amount of 10,000,000 l. had been, within a few years, sustained in Calcutta in consequence of the mode in which business was now conducted. The consequence was, that credit was nearly extinct there. The plan he suggested would be a means of bringing capital into circulation in India, which might be advantageously employed in that trade from which the Company withdrew. The present Government, in the correspondence, took great credit to themselves for the compromise they effected. Without meaning the slightest disrespect to their talents for negotiation, he would take the liberty of saying, that that was not exactly the point upon which they

of all fluctuating changes and interest of debt), is

950,000

Deduct prospective deficit, being the medium between the estimates of the India Board and the Court

500,000

Surplus

450,000

Reductions since 1828–9, supposed to be wholly from civil charges

300,000

Surplus

150,000

Increase of revenue in Bengal, Behar, and Orissa, from 1809 to 1826.

From Land

581,000

From Customs

111,000

From Stamps

200,000

In Seventeen Years

892,000

Per Annum

52,000

The estimated prospective increase of revenue in all the rest of India, per annum

48,000

Together

100,000

Assets

12,702,000

To be repaid by India in 1834–5

2,574,000

To be repaid by India 1835–6

3,348,000

To be repaid by India 1836–7

3,398,000

22,022,000

Deduct guarantee fund

2,000,000

Applicable to payments

20,022,000

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ought to pride themselves. The concession which they flattered themselves they had exacted from the Company was a proposition which had been actually made to the late Government, and all that the present spoke of doing, their predecessors would have actually accomplished; but they would have done it gradually. It would have formed no part of their plan all at once to put an end to the trade with China—they were not altogether without apprehension, that in such an event there might have been produced such a change in the amount of the exports of this country as would have led to a crisis in trade, fraught with danger to the well-being of the commercial and manufacturing communities; and even at present he was by no means free from the apprehension, that the crisis then feared might yet take place. The object of the former Government would have been to induce the Company gradually to withdraw their assets

Charges thereon.

1834–5

3,348,000

1835–6

3,398,000

1836–7

3,198,000

Remittable Loan (payable July 1836)

9,342,100

19,286,100

Which deducted from

20,022,000

Leaves in hand on 1st May 1837

736,000

During 1837–8, will be received 3,198,000 l. in repayment of advances in 1836–7.

Effect of Plan on Finances of India and of England.

By plan of late Government, Ceylon would have been transferred to India

90,000

By plan of present Government, St. Helena is transferred to England

90,000

Loss to English revenues

180,000

Debt imposed on India

630,000

Deduct interest of the remittable loan

467,000

New charge on India

163,000

Add compensations already granted to commercial servants

56,000

Do to be granted (on estimate)-

150,000

Five Law Commissioners

30,000

Five Slavery Commissioners

30,000

Travelling of the two Commissions-

30,000

Three new Members of Council-

30,000

New Government of Agra

22,000

Two new Bishops

10,000

Travelling of Governor-General

50,000

571,000

Deduct St. Helena

90,000

Total new charges

£.481,000

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from the China trade, and otherwise invest them; and that withdrawal, he did suppose, could be effected without loss or risk, provided it proceeded gradually. Had that been done they might have prevented the necessity of throwing upon the territorial revenue the loss arising from the cessation of the trade to China. With reference to one point which had been much insisted on by the noble Marquess, and by many political economists, he meant the injury arising from the union of the two characters in the Company of Sovereign and trader; he must observe, that all those difficulties had been much exaggerated. The Governor-General was not occupied in the course of the year twelve hours by the trading interests of the Company, and the Board of Control had nothing whatever to do with those interests. Those intrusted with the government of India, did not in fact meddle with the trade; and as far as he knew, there had been only one complaint of any misconduct on the part of the Company's officers towards an individual who might be considered as a trading competitor, and in that instance the injury was redressed. No other evil he conceived was done to the Company by its character of a trader in respect to its fitness for Government, than that of being obliged to make remittances which sometimes led to embarrassments, and such embarrassments were likely to be increased by the measures of his Majesty's Ministers. On a subject of such vast extent it was not improbable that he might have omitted perhaps some very important subjects connected with this matter. But he now approached that part of the question which was to him the most interesting, inasmuch as it deeply affected the future happiness of the people of India: be meant the effects of the proposed changes in the Government both in India and in England. And first as to the constitution of the home Government; could any man doubt, that when the East-India Company should be no longer a trading Company, when a large portion of its commerce was taken from it, and all the patronage connected with that trade, that a different class of persons would become proprietors of East India Stock, and that at no distant period these changes would lead to a material alteration in the character of the Court of Directors themselves? Now he was not desirous to see any diminution whatever

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in the real influence of the Court of Directors. He was satisfied that it was necessary to the system by which the Government of India was conducted that the Court of Directors should be composed of persons of high moral character, as well as of property, whose independence, and impartiality should be unimpeachable, and who should be able to deliver free and unbiassed opinions, and whose general conduct should afford t e strongest possible guarantee, that they would consult only the public interest. Their Lordships had some reason to imagine what degree of consideration would be extended by his Majesty's Government to the Court of Directors hereafter when they knew that no correspondence had taken place with that body upon the subject of these changes; and he believed that no persons were more surprised than the Court of Directors of the East-India Company were when those changes had been proposed to Parliament. What he apprehended was, that the constituency would in time be composed of persons wholly connected with India, and the result must be, that the Court of Directors would be similarly composed; and he looked to this as a calamity. He was by no means desirous that India should be wholly governed by persons who had retired from service in India, as he did not think this would benefit the people of that country. The feelings such persons had imbibed in India would predominate in the Court of Directors, and such feelings were not precisely those best fitted to promote the happiness of both countries. On the contrary, he knew, that the great advantage in the practical working of the present system was, that the Court of Directors, being partly composed of persons connected with India, and partly of merchants of the first eminence connected with the trade of this country, and influential members of society, an amalgamation of British and Indian feeling had taken place which had been highly beneficial. What had been the effect of this but a very useful distribution of patronage not confined to the sons of Indians, and imbued with all the prejudices of Indian society. That patronage had been extended to every class of society, and it had been exercised to the greatest benefit of this country and India. But it had been made subject of gratulation by his Majesty's Ministers, that by these arrangements the Court of Directors would
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have an interest which they never had before in the welfare of India, whereas the reverse was the case. Under the existing system, the Court of Directors were interested in maintaining the surplus revenue of India, for out of that the dividends were paid. It certainly had happened, that the revenue fell off in one year, when the Company fell back on the surplus revenue of the former year, and was able to pay the dividend. This was the first of those advantages of the present system, which was not of a visionary character. The Company derived part of its resources from its commerce; those resources enabled it to relieve the pressure upon India, and appear to its subjects in the character of a beneficent master realizing no other advantages from its superiority than those of a reciprocal commercial intercourse. The condition in which the Company would be placed now was in the undignified and not very popular character of mortgagees in possession. The government of India must, as a matter of duty, remit the dividends, cost what it might to the general character of the Company to levy them. He maintained, therefore, that the plan of his Majesty's Ministers placed the Company in a worse position relative to the people of India than heretofore. But, however important might be the changes contemplated in the constitution of the Government at home, he considered them much less injurious than the changes contemplated in the Government abroad. It was with great surprise that he had understood it had been stated, that the alterations in lndia were sup-ported by the authority of every person of weight. Now, he confessed that when he had the honour to preside at the Board of Control, he had always thought that in matters of difficulty he could not act more usefully or safely than by requesting the opinion of Mr. Elphinstone. He believed, that every man, acquainted with India, would agree with him, that the opinion of this Gentleman was most valuable; and he could state, from the opinion of Mr. Elphinstone before the Committee, in answer to questions which were put to him upon almost every point on which alterations were now to be made, that his opinion was adverse to every one of these Resolutions. He staked Mr. Elphinstone's opinion confidently against the joint opinions of every man who had been examined before the Committee of the House of

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Commons; and he thought it better to look to the opinion of a man of a most extensive experience and great ability, rather than to allow it to be outnumbered by the opinions of persons of little or no authority. Now, what was the first proposition of his Majesty's Government? Why, it was, that the Governors should have no Councils. He was well aware, that those councils were productive of delay and of difficulty, but their removal would constitute the Government of India an absolute Government, instead of being a Government of respondits. They had been placed there as a security against the abuse of absolute power; they had been placed there for the benefit and protection of the natives; and in abolishing them they removed the strongest guarantee for the good government of the people of that country. He cared not what theorists would advance on such a subject—they knew not man, or the nature of man, who supposed that absolute power could be exercised beneficially for a people, without being subject to responsibility and to reflection before it acted. But they proposed in this case, to take from the Governor his responsibility, and all necessity for reflection; nay, more than this. What were the future powers of the subordinate Governor to be?—Very small. Would any respectable man take the office? He was to be deprived of the power of legislation! of the power of expending a single shilling! and yet to the man so degraded, they were to leave the whole executive power of the Government, without that control with which the prudence and wisdom of former Parliaments had surrounded it. But what was the excuse for doing away with the Councils? It was said, that the subsidiary governments had been guilty of extravagance; but this was not true. They would see extravagance in Bengal, but not in the presidencies of Madras or Bombay. Look to the presidency of Bombay. Could any man suppose that that Presidency could be ill-governed which had been administered for six years by Sir Thomas Munro, by Mr. Elphinstone, and subsequently by Sir John Malcolm? But it was proposed, that a new government should be established in India, and the Legislature was to be vested in future, not in three (as before), but in six Members of Council in Calcutta, four to be officers of the four presidencies, the fifth to be a philosopher, and the sixth a
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soldier. In what manner could such a council be conducted? When the Government consisted of the Governor and two councillors, having the assistance of the Commander-in-chief, there was a possibility of conducting the Government. When the Commander-in-chief was present, if one individual in three agreed with the Governor, there was a majority in favour of his proposition, and it became the measure of the Government. What could be expected of this Legislature which was to be formed of five lay Members, with the addition of the Commander-in-chief? The philosopher would be at the head of the opposition, and would endeavour to counteract, if he could not be, the Governor General. This might appear unimportant, but their Lordships might depend upon it, if the Government, which must be conducted with rapidity, was to be carried on by double the number of council, it would be a means of producing delay, and carrying confusion into every department. But what must be the consequence of those difficulties which would be experienced by the Governor General? He would leave Calcutta; it was the object of his Majesty's Ministers that he should leave Calcutta occasionally; and, like the ancient Caliphs, give laws from his stirrup, and live in his camp. Then, if the Governor General could find one obsequious man in the whole Council of Calcutta, to accompany him, the signature of that individual would give to whatever he might promulgate, the authority of an act of the Governor General in Council. Here again, the Government deprived him of that advantage which any man would wish to have, of communicating with able men, well acquainted with every part of the country, and of forming upon their opinions, and the facts stated by them, his own judgment of what should be the future measures of his government. With the assistance of this Council, the Governor General was to legislate for the whole of India. Could he legislate for distant places as well as if he were on the spot? Was it possible to legislate for the whole of India, fixed at Calcutta, so satisfactorily as a council living in the country where the laws are to be applied? No, certainly not. Legislation would be much better by a local, than by a distant government. In abolishing the councils of the several presidencies, those presidencies would be deprived of the advantage of having the

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commander of the military force associated with the civil power. The consequence of that might be, a collision of the civil and military authorities. On a former occasion, the consequence was more than collision—it was mutiny and civil war. It was most unwise to dissociate the Commander-in-chief from the civil government. He laid that down as a safe principle; and he was quite sure, if their Lordships legislated otherwise, they would do serious mischief. But the Commander-in-chief would, according to the new plan, be Commander-in-chief of all the forces in India—from which no advantage would be gained in time of war, and great inconvenience would be experienced in the ordinary working of the system in time of peace. The power of legislation, however, was not only to be confined to the Governor General in council at Calcutta; but that power, in their hands, was to be more extensive than had ever yet been exercised. Now, the Governor General could legislate for the natives; hereafter he was to legislate for Europeans. He was to have the power of altering the laws by which the Supreme Court itself was established. Undoubtedly, the events which they had witnessed had made it necessary to define, perhaps to restrict, the jurisdiction of that Court. But it was established in India to protect the natives from the abuse of European power: for that purpose let it be upheld in all its original independence. Restrict its jurisdiction if the House would bring Europeans within its reach, but leave it as former Parliaments had placed it—as the only security which the natives possess against European oppression. The power given to the council, which, in effect, abolished the Supreme Court, astonished him. He did think that the recollection of former days would have so acted upon some of the members of his Majesty's Government, as to have made them desirous of retaining that Court which their ancestors had established; but instead of that, every security which had been hitherto given to the natives against European oppression, was at once to be swept away. Europeans, too, it seemed, were to have the liberty of going into the interior of India. But was it not known that, practically, all men of capital have long had that liberty? He would venture to say, that not a man hitherto in this country that could give a
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colourable pretext for going to India had ever been refused a licence to go there. It was a great mistake to suppose that capitalists went out to India. No British capital went out to India. The capital with which India was worked was capital raised by the civil and military servants of the Crown in that country. Another part of the plan was, to place all persons in India under the same law. He would say at once, that it would be utterly impossible to do that consistent with native usages and prejudices. If they were to alter the laws there so as to induce Europeans to live under them, they must, in doing so, violate all the prejudices and feelings of the natives; and, instead of producing satisfaction, they would excite abhorrence and disgust amongst the natives throughout the whole of India. It appeared, too, that they were to extend those beneficial measures to the slaves in India which were about being so happily settled with regard to the slaves in our West-India colonies. Now, what were called domestic slaves in India were not really slaves, they were called slaves because they had no other name for persons in their condition there; but their condition was that of the mildest state of domestic servitude. There were parts of India, no doubt, where the state of those slaves was of a more severe description,—in Malabar for instance; but then the noble Marquess himself admitted, that their slavery there was a slavery of caste. It would be a violent outrage on the feelings and-prejudices of the natives of India thus to abolish all castes there, and to say, that slavery should no longer exist in that country. The attempt to establish such a state of things would lead most certainly to bloodshed in every part of India. In fact, it was insanity to make the attempt. Where, at all events, was the necessity for stating, in an Act of Parliament that which the Government could do at any time without such authority,—namely, that by the 12th of April, 1837, every slave in India should be free? What was it but, in other words, to say, that there should be insurrection in every part of India? He would recommend their Lordships to attend to the discreet and wise advice of no less an authority than the late Sir T. Monro on that subject [The noble Lord quoted an opinion of Sir T. Monro, to the effect that, by the gradual operation of justice and

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policy, more good would be effected for the slaves in India than by the direct interference of the Government.] That, he observed, was a wise and considerate opinion, and entitled to the greatest weight, coming as it did from a man who was justly venerated as one of the greatest benefactors of the native population in India, and the ablest governor who had ever appeared in that country. He called on their Lordships to pause before they proceeded to do that which would go to shake the very foundation of our power in India, which would go to shake the confidence which every man there entertained in the justice and honour of the English Government, He felt deeply interested in the prosperity of India, and when he was a Minister of the Crown, filling an office peculiarly connected with that country, he had always considered it his paramount duty to do all in his power to promote that prosperity. He was as anxious as any of his Majesty's Ministers could be to raise the moral character of the native population of India. He trusted, that the time would eventually come, though he never expected to see it, when the natives of India could, with advantage to the country, and with honour to themselves, fill even the highest situations there. He looked forward to the arrival of such a period, though he considered it far distant from the present day; and he proposed, by the reduction of taxation, which was the only way to benefit the lower classes in India, to elevate them ultimately in the scale of society, so as to fit them for admission to offices of power and trust. To attempt to precipate the arrival, of such a state of society as that he had been describing was the surest way to defeat the object in view. He never, however, looked forward to a period when all offices in India would be placed in the hands of natives. No man in his senses would propose to place the political and military power in India in the hands of the natives.
The Marquess of Lansdownobserved, that what the Government proposed was, that all offices in India should be by law open to the natives of that country.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, such was precisely the proposition of Government, but our very existence in India depended upon the exclusion of the natives from military and political power in that country. We were there in a situation not of our own
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seeking, in a situation from which we could not recede without producing bloodshed from one end of India to the other. We had won the empire of India by the sword, and we must preserve it by the same means, doing, at the same time, everything that was consistent with our existence there for the good of the people of India. The present was a crude, ill-digested plan, the offspring of unfounded theories, formed by men who knew no-thing of India, and who would learn nothing of India; and who expected that men possessed of all the passions which they themselves possessed, were to be governed like mere ciphers? Was it not folly to propose to give unlimited power to men who would not be called upon to reflect before they acted, and who would be placed in a position where all ultimate responsibility was taken away, as no records or minutes of their proceedings would exist? Such was the power that was proposed to be given to the governors in India. On those grounds he protested against the whole of the plan proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. He called on the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, in accordance with those sentiments which he had expressed twenty years ago on this subject, to join with him (Lord Ellenborough) in asking for time. He asked for no more. He merely asked, for time, in order that the whole of this great question might be well and deeply considered, that they might have the advantage of learning the opinions of men of experience—of men connected with India, and intimately acquainted with its wants and with the feelings of its people on this subject—in fine, he called for time that they might not recklessly risk all that they possessed in India, losing, perhaps, the greatest and most glorious empire that had ever been won by the hands of man, and at the same time losing their characters as statesmen and as benefactors of the people whose dominion would thus irretrievably pass from their hands.
The Earl of Riponcommenced by complimenting the noble Lord upon the eloquence and research displayed in his speech, and then expressed his satisfaction that although Ministers were so obstinately ignorant, and had brought forward such a crude and undigested plan, yet that some part of it met with the approbation of the noble Lord. The noble Lord, with all his diligence of discovery, could have paid

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but little attention to the mass of documents upon the Table, or he would have found that there was no part of the plan which had not received the deliberate sanction of a Committee, and that not a single principle had been adopted that had not the support of some adequate authority. It was satisfactory to find, however, not only that the noble Lord approved of some parts of the plan, but that he actually took credit to himself for having been disposed to originate something similar. Such was the case with the abolition of China monopoly. The noble Lord stated that the late Government were satisfied that the only circumstance that could justify the maintenance of the commercial monopoly of the East-India Company was the necessity of supporting the expenditure of the government of India from other sources than the territorial revenue of that country, and that he wished to reduce the Indian expenditure as much as possible, with a view to render the commercial privileges of the Company ultimately unnecessary as an aid to the Government expenditure. Now, he (the Earl of Ripon) thought that the financial condition of India was at present such as to justify Ministers in their plan, because there were reasonable grounds for expecting a surplus revenue. [The noble Earl here entered into a long detail of figures relating to the revenue and expenditure of the three presidencies, showing, in crores and lacks of rupees, sicca, and others, that there would be an available surplus revenue, after paying all charges, of 198,000 l.] Such being the pecuniary means, which the noble Lord could not dispute, the noble Lord had proceeded to insist that the bargain with the East-India Company was improvident. He contended that it was a compromise between the State and the commerce; and the noble Lord had admitted, that if he had continued in office he should himself have brought it to a compromise. The noble Lord had suggested an application of the funds of the Company to the payment of the unremittable debt, and the conversion of the remittable into an unremittable debt. Undoubtedly, that suggestion was worthy of consideration, but to act upon it, belonged properly to those who would be at the head of the Indian government, and there was nothing whatever in the present plan, to prevent that suggestion from being acted upon. Leaving,
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however, the subject of revenue, he would proceed to refer to a few of the general to pies introduced by the noble Lord in the course of his speech. The noble Lord objected to that part of the plan by which the Company were required to abstain from trade, and appeared to think that it would be better to leave them a discretion to trade or not, as the Company might think proper. Now, he thought, that the history of the Company's commercial operations did not warrant the supposition that, in the event of un-limited competition, they would be able to carry on trade with success. Competition in India had already utterly destroyed all the Company's profits, and they had, therefore, wisely abandoned the attempt to trade. Look at the situation of the China trade, which had ceased to be so advantageous to the Company, in consequence of the facilities they had themselves liberally afforded to private traders. Was it not, therefore, reasonable to suppose, when the trade should be opened generally, that the Company would be unable to carry on commercial operations with advantage? He said, therefore, that it would be more beneficial to the proprietors to be secured the payment of 630,000 l. on the territorial revenues of India than to be left dependent on the fluctuations of commerce. The noble Lord said, that by the separation of their character of governors from their character of traders, the Company would be degraded: rather a singular proposition; but supposing the case to stand as staled by the noble Lord, it should be recollected that the noble Lord's own plan led gradually and eventually to a separation of the commercial and sovereign character of the Company. The noble Lord's own plan, indeed, was much the same as that of the Government, although he attacked then! so violently; for though he said at one time that he would not deprive the Company of the power of trading as a Company, yet he should wish them gradually to withdraw from it. That would only be a postponement of the change; but the change itself was as certain with the noble Lord's plan as with that of the Government. The noble Lord then objected to the putting of the government of India under one Governor General, and giving him the superintendence of the whole dominion; and he called the plan mischievous; but though it was true that

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Mr. Mount Stuart Elphinstone had objected to such a plan, yet it was recommended by the authority, (at least equal) of Sir John Malcohn, Lord William Bentinck, Sir Charles Metcalfe, and the three gentlemen—Messrs. Hill, Bayley, and Bax—to whom the consideration of the subject had been referred. Ail these were persons of great eminence and experience in Indian affairs. Ministers, therefore, were not liable to the sweeping censure cast upon them by the noble Lord. They had not proceeded on the crude and fanciful theories which the noble Lord imagined; they had consulted persons of authority, and had not acted without due inquiry and deliberation. The fourth presidency had been objected to by the noble Lord, but only on account of the expense; but if it should appear to be needful expense, it ought not to form an insuperable obstacle to its formation. That was not a new project, it had been suggesled as early as 1808 by a gentleman of great talent and experience; and to him the reasoning of that gentleman appeared quite conclusive. Many circumstances connected with the geographical position of the north-western provinces of India rendered it necessary to have a vigilant and active government in that quarter, which formed the outwork of our Indian territories, and was the only point where there was a chance of the empire being successfully assailed. The noble Lord seemed to think it absurd to attempt to construct a general code applicable to people so different in manners, habits, and opinions, as those of our Indian territories; and he would admit that nothing could be more unwise than an endeavour to screw all persons within the operation of the same laws; but, nevertheless, there were a great number of general principles applicable to all, and it was desirable to assimilate the law and practice as it regarded them, as much as possible. To that extent only would the labour of the Commissioners go, and when it was recollected that all their recommendations would be referred to the authorities at home, he could not conceive that the Commission was liable, either on the score of principle or practice, to one reasonable objection. The noble Lord in other cases relied on the authority of Mr. Elphinstone, but on this point. Mr. Elphinstone's opinion was decidedly favourable to the Government plan. With respect to the councils in the several pre
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sidencies which the noble Lord supposed were to be abolished, but the noble Lord had not understood the Government plan. The government did not mean to say, that the councils should be altogether abolished but its object was to place the governor of each of the separate presidencies more Immediately under the control of the Governor-General who would be competent with the sanction of the Government at home, to appoint a Council at each Presidency if he thought fit. It was not in-tended, therefore, unconditionally, to abolish the Councils, hut to place them under the power of the Governor General. The noble Lord had treated that part of the plan which went to facilitate the introduction of Europeans into India with contempt. The noble Lord had described it as useless, because there was he said, now no obstacle to respectable European settlers in India. He did not mean to say, that there was any serious legal obstacle, but there were practical difficulties in the way of enterprising men, and he thought it was extremely desirable to facilitate by every possible means the introduction of European skill and capital into our Eastern dominions. He then could not agree with the noble Lord. Convinced of the advantage of introducing European skill and capital in to that country, he apprehended that there was no danger of poor and idle adventurers resorting thither. It was a necessary consequence of the admission of Europeans to place them on the same footing as the natives, and under the same laws, with a view to prevent injustice. On reviewing the whole plan, he conceived himself justified in asserting that Government had not acted hastily or without extensive inquiry, and the advantage of much experience of the practical results of the renewal of the last charter. They had given to the subject the best consideration in their power, and had been actuated by no object other than an endeavour to combine justice to the body of the proprietors constituting the East-India Company in their commercial capacity with the happiness of those 60,000,000 or 70,000,000 of subjects who looked for protection to the British Legislature.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that having been so long a servant of the East-India Company, having served so many years of his life in that country, having witnessed the benefits conferred by the Government now about to be put an end

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to on the people of that country, having seen the operation of that Government at a period of his life when he was capable of judging of its character, having had reason to believe from what he saw then, and from what he had seen since, that that Government was the best administered, the most purely administered Government that ever existed—a Government that provided best for the happiness of the people committed to its charge—with such recollections and opinions deeply and unalterably impressed on his mind, it was impossible that he could be present at a discussion of a question of such a description without arresting their Lordships' attention for a short time whilst he delivered his opinions on the measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. At such a late hour of the night, when their Lordships were necessarily exhausted by the attention they paid to so interesting a topic, he would not follow the noble Marquess (Larsdown) into the consideration of whether a chartered Company which was to carry on the Government and the trade at the same time, was or was not the establishment best calculated to carry on the Government and trade of an Empire like India. That was not the question before their Lordships. When he heard such a discussion he could not but recollect what he had seen in that country; he could not but recal to his mind the history of the East-India Company for the period of the last fifty or sixty years; he could not but recollect the days of its misfortunes; he could not but remember the meridian of its glory, nor could he shut his eyes to the situation in which it stood at the present moment. He would not pretend to say whether there were forty, fifty, sixty, or a hundred millions of people raider the British Government in India (for those extremes of numbers had been taken in the course of the Debate), but he would say, that there was an immense population, and that the revenue amounted to 20,000,000 l. per annum, and that after the Company had been engaged in wars during the whole term, or a greater part of the term, of a century, they had a debt which amounted to only the sum of forty millions sterling. He was willing to acknowledge that even such a debt was not desirable; but still he maintained that it was deceiving the people of England to say, that a Company that had thus conducted its affairs was unlit for the functions
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of Government, or unfit for the management of commerce. This Government, which had been thus administered for so many years, was at last to be put down by the proposed arrangement, and the people of England were to be taught, that it was a Government neither calculated for trade nor for general control. The East-India Company had shown the situation in which they were after all the circumstances of their history. He would admit with the noble Lord who had last spoken, that the Legislature had always retained the power of revising the institutions of the Government of India, and for the carrying on the trade of the Eastern dominions of the Crown; but it was evident that the Legislature had never lost sight of one thing, it had never forgotten that the Company had a Charter to be considered in all future arrangements. The present plan paid no such respect to former stipulations. They reversed the situation of the Company; they altered entirely all the relations in which the trade stood, not only with respect to the East-Indian revenue and finances, but likewise with respect to this country, and to the local interests of great towns, such as London, in which the trade was established. There could be no doubt whatever, that the alterations now to be made in the situation of the Company did very much reduce its power; which however had been reduced for twenty years past. Let their Lordships but look at the state of a Company at the head of a capital of from twelve to fourteen millions. Anybody of persons carrying on a trade with such a capital in this town must have been possessed of enormous patronage, which must have rendered it a great and independent Company, and much more independent than it could ever be again. It would never have the same power in relation to his Majesty's Government that it had had; and what was yet worse, it would not have the same power in relation to its old servants. It was no longer in the same independent, respectable, and influential situation in which it had existed for so long a period. These considerations he deemed to be of extreme importance, and he trusted that they would have their weight upon that House. He would now beg leave to remind their Lordships of one curious part of the proposed transactions. If their Lordships would read the correspondence they would see that the Company

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in future were to be bound, as a matter of course, to sign any despatch which might be sent to them; and this the Company were to do, not directly or by themselves, but by a signing officer to be appointed for them, and for that purpose. He begged to remind the House that the same proposition was made to the Company so far back as the year 1784, when Mr. Pitt had recommended the arrangement, and the Company had not only refused to adopt it, but had successfully resisted the pro-position. Notwithstanding this, upon the present occasion the proposition must be adopted, and the Company would have no option but to be placed in the situation of implicitly obeying whatever his Majesty's Ministers might be pleased to direct. He would put one question of some importance to his Majesty's Ministers. He would ask, was it intended, or was it not, that the Company's trade to China should be finished at the present moment, or was it intended that it should go on until April 1834? This would make a great difference with respect to the finances of the Company. The question would affect a great number of chartered vessels. It was absolutely necessary, as well for the Company as for the private trader, that this matter should be speedily settled. Look at the consequences of this transaction with reference to the city of London itself. The East-India Company was a body trading on a capital of about fourteen millions sterling. Great as was the city of London, in relation to the kingdom, important as it was in relation to the whole trade of the community, would any man venture to say, that the withdrawing of such an immense trading capital from it, would not most seriously affect the inhabitants of the metropolis? The residents of Poplar and of that neighbourhood depended entirely on the business of the East-India Company, and many thousand persons were employed in different grades in the Company's service. It was impossible then to put down this trade without creating the most extraordinary distress, and their Lordships heard of the distresses of the industrious classes every day which were occasioned by such sudden, unexpected and unnecessary destructions of trade, or alterations of the long-established channels of commerce. It was his opinion that the Government ought to have endeavoured to prevail on the Company to continue their trade to China as a Joint-Stock
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Company. The Government ought also to have relaxed the Commutation Act, and adopted other means to induce them to carry on the trade. It was true that the people of this country were desirous of participating in the trade with China, but still they had never expressed a desire that the Company should not likewise participate in that valuable commerce. Had the Company been relieved of the oppression of the Commutation Act, and obtained their fair and just chances of success as free traders, he was confident that neither the Company nor the country would have objected to the proposed arrangement, and that arrangement might have been pressed with advantage to both parties. But the noble Lord who spoke last asked how the Company were to continue to pay their dividends? Why, supposing their trade to have gone on as badly as it could have done, their dividends would have been secured to them by the saving of expense in the Government of India. One of the worst parts of the plan was, that the Company would have to draw their dividends from India. That necessity would tend to increase the sums annually to be brought home in the shape of remittances to such an amount as could not fail to prove vastly inconvenient to commerce. It was, as had been before observed, remittances which principally occasioned inconvenience to commerce. The noble Marquess in opening his case, had dwelt much on the state of the finances of India, and had referred to various documents to show the state of those finances. As unfortunately the papers to which the noble Marquess had so referred were not on the Table of their Lordships' House, it was out of his power to form an opinion of their accuracy, and he had been unable to follow the noble Lords' in their statements, but, from calculations that he had himself made, he was confident the noble Marquess had much underrated the amount of these deficiencies. From his calculations he was ready to contend, that, from the new arrangement about to be made, it would be necessary to remit more than 2,700,000 l. a-year, which would press greatly and injuriously on the trade of that country, particularly if the remittable loan were not paid off. The noble Lord opposite had stated that he, (the Duke of Wellington) had intimated to the Directors, that if they could not carry on the Government

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of India in any other way, they must do so by borrowing. That certainly was not the view which he took of the question. He admitted that borrowing might be resorted to if a necessity existed, but he thought it had been resorted to, to too great an extent already. There was, however, another mode by which the Government could be carried on without borrowing, and that was by a reduction of every expense which was not absolutely necessary. He had already stated he was confident that the arrangements made for carrying-on the Government of India at home were calculated to deteriorate the authority of the East-India Company among their own servants in India; and he felt further bound to tell their Lordships that he considered that if such an arrangement took place it would prove ere long highly detrimental to Great Britain in the legislation of India. He cordially agreed with his noble friend who bad spoken second in the debate of that evening, that the effect of all the arrangements in the Government of India would be found prejudicial to any interests reserved to the Company. The appointment of Councillors by the Court of Directors had been always considered by the East-India Company as one of the means by which they were enabled to exercise a moderate degree of influence over the Governor. These appointments, however, he found were to be no longer made by the Court of Directors; and when, in addition to that circumstance, he found that their appointment was left altogether with the Governor General, the very individual whose proceedings they were originally intended to control, and moreover only to be appointed when such Governor General thought fit, he confessed he felt much alarm for the general success of the Indian Government. From experience he knew the vast importance of having a responsible authority in each of the subordinate Governments, and the necessity that every proceeding relating to such Governments should be put upon record, and therefore he was the more urgent in calling upon his Majesty's Ministers to pause ere they deprived the general Government of India of the check which those Councillors were upon the proceedings of the Governor General. He would also beg to impress on the Government the danger of destroying the principle of "the Governor in Council." All the acts of the Governor General ought to be of the
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Governor in Council; and when he differed from the opinion of the members in Council, he was bound to state his reasons in writing; and if they still differed, he was authorized to act on his own responsibility; but this statement of his reasons brought the whole of his acts under the consideration of the court at home. If, however, the Governor had to appoint his council at will, there would be less chance of their differing, and of course lower opportunities of bringing their acts under the view of the Directors. He must also object to that part of the arrangement which made the other presidencies dependent on that of Bengal. It had been stated in the course of the debate that the Governments of Fort St. George and Bombay bad been the causes of all the extravagances in the general Government of India, and that they ought to be abolished. Government proposed to diminish their authority. It was true that the resources of Bengal were those which kept up the whole machinery of the Government of the country, but he look upon himself to deny—and having served in both the Government of Fort St. George and Bombay he trusted bis denial would have some weight—that anything like extravagance had or indeed could take place in the management of either of those Governments. In proof of that assertion he might mention that, while serving in the Government of Fort St. George, although in command of 60,000 men, he had never incurred the expense of one shilling beyond the regulated expenditure without recording every such expense, and leaving to the Governor to judge whether it was proper or not that such expenditure ought to be incurred. Had he not dune so, he should have been obliged, by the regulations of the Government to meet all the charges for it out of his own pocket. People might talk of the necessity of having checks to expenditure, but he defied any one to point out how a stronger check than that to which he alluded could be imposed. If, then, no proof of extravagance could be made out as against these presidencies, he would strongly advise Ministers to consider well before they decided upon diminishing their authority. The great advantage which they offered was, that if any insurrection took place in their parts of the country, they at once supplied a sufficient force to quell it. Supposing the presidency of Fort Saint George to be abolished, what

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would be the consequence should an insurrection take place within its present district? Why, it would take three months before a competent force could be obtained from Calcutta; and yet it was supposed to be economical to deprive those presidencies of their local authorities, and to establish a despotic power over them in the hands of the Governor-General. It was likewise understood, that the nature of the office of Governor-General was to be entirely changed. On that point, he had only to say, that he had seen a great deal of Governor-Generals, and had also means of judging of the nature and extent of the powers intrusted to them, and the result of his observations was a conviction, that they were vested with as much power as they could desire to have, or could exercise with satisfaction to themselves or those under them. There was another part of the measure, which he felt it his duty to entreat Ministers would consider of before they adopted it; that was, the separation of the province of Bengal from under the immediate care of the Governor-General, giving it a Governor and Presidency of its own. The province of Bengal was the source and spring of the power of India, and should be never lost sight of by the government of that country. As well might the noble Earl think of remaining first Minister of the Crown, without the control over the Treasury department, which he now exercised as its First Lord, as the Governor-General of India think of carrying on his government with a separate power to administer the province of Bengal. Let them look to that province with reference to its trade, to its agriculture, to its population, or to its finances, and they would find it more productive in each of those respects than all the other Presidencies put together. It was, in fact, the source on which the government of India had to rely for every thing, and should not, under any circumstances, be lost sight of. He next came to speak of the power with which it was proposed to intrust the Governor-General of legislating for India. That power he thought would be too extensive to be hastily intrusted to any individual, more particularly as it was to be so exercised, subject only to the control of a Council under the appointment of that individual. The object for which that power was to be intrusted had reference, he believed, to the expected increase in the resort of British subjects to India.
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Now, if there were any one point in which all parties had agreed, and he made this assertion from a perusal of the evidence taken before the Committee which sat to inquire into the subject in both Houses of Parliament, it was, that the natives of India should, as much as possible, be employed in the revenue and judicial establishments of the country. That point was again and again impressed on the attention of Ministers in the evidence of last Session, and so likewise was another point to which he begged to direct attention—namely, that Europeans ought not to be allowed to resort to the Indian territory, as, by doing so, they invariably became an impediment to the employment of natives in judicial relations. He would defy the Governor-General or any other authority, to employ a native in any judicial establishment in which it was possible to employ an European. One thing on which the noble Lords opposite calculated as a result of their plan was, that large capital would be applied in carrying on trade in India. It was true, that large sums had been embarked in the cultivation of indigo and of sugar; but let it not be imagined that all the capital so embarked, was the property of the persons immediately engaged in those speculations. The money was, for the greater part, advanced by the houses of agency in India, and was, in general, the savings of the civil and military servants of the Company, who foolishly placed it in such houses, and were thus, by their misplaced confidence, deprived of the hard earnings of a long service in the country; but noble Lords might depend upon it, that men of large capital would not go out and risk that capital in speculations which would be unsafe—and certainly it would be unsafe to embark large capital in such speculations in India. He must express his regret, that the advice of the late Sir John Malcolm had not been taken, of constituting an independent body in London, representing the interests of India. Such a body would be an effectual check on the acts of Government with respect to India; but he was sorry to see, that, instead of making the only body of men which did represent Indian interests independent, this measure would take from them much of the power and influence which they now possessed.
The Marquess of Lansdown, in reply, begged most positively to deny, that either he or any of his noble colleagues, had declared that the Company had ever shown

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itself unable or unfit to govern India, and the noble Duke in so saying had, unintentionally, no doubt, wholly misrepresented what he had said. So far from having said or thought anything of the kind, he had most fully admitted the great ability of the Company in governing India, and the credit which was due to them in having reared up so many able servants, who had shown so much fitness for governing that country. He had admitted, that under the government of the Company, the condition of the people had been greatly improved, and that they had been made comfortable and happy, to an extent which they had not experienced under any former government. He was anxious to set himself right with the noble Duke and with the House on this point. There was another part of the noble Duke's statement, which he owned had surprised him not a little. The noble Duke had expressed his regret, that the appointment of Members of Council should be taken from the Court of Directors, and vested in the Governor-General. The noble Duke must have seen some very erroneous copy of the Bill, when he stated this to be a part of its provisions, but he was surprised that the noble Baron (Ellenborough), who had seen the Bill, had not set the noble Duke right on this point; for in the Bill it was distinctly stated in two parts of it, that in every government in which a President was to be appointed, the government at home would have the right to appoint the Members of Council. The noble Baron complained of the degradation of the Company; but what was the situation in which the noble Baron would place the Company. The noble Baron proposed, that the Company should continue to trade as a Company, although it was admitted that, both at Canton and in London, their trade for the future was not likely to prove beneficial to themselves. Indeed, it had been distinctly proved, that, for several years past, their trade had been rapidly on the decline. What, then, would be the situation of the Company, if the noble Baron's plan were adopted? Instead of having the lien which it was now proposed to give them on the territory of India, it would have to depend entirely upon the surplus revenue of which the noble Duke had spoken; and if that surplus revenue should not be realized, which the declining state of the trade rendered extremely probable, the Company would have, hereafter, to come to Parliament
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in formâ pauperis, and to beg for the adoption of some measure which should relieve it from the difficulty of its situation. Whether this would be more consistent with the dignity of the Company than the position in which this measure would place them, he must leave it to their Lordships to determine. What was it that Government proposed? A measure which secured to the proprietors the whole of their dividends, independent of Parliament and the Government; which gave to them a lien upon the territory of India; and at the same time constituted in opposition to what the noble Baron had said, a great interest in the proprietors of Indian stocks. By this arrangement, the Company would be left to administer the government of the country solely for the benefit of the country, and not from any more sordid motive—which, notwithstanding every thing that the noble Baron had said, had undoubtedly mixed itself up with the administration of the affairs of India. He was surprised to hear the noble Duke represent these Resolutions as calculated to inflict an unjust loss on the city of London, He had never heard that the city of don had a monopoly of the East-India trade. He admitted, ex necessitate rei, that whilst the East-India Company had a monopoly of the trade lo the east, the tradesmen and shopkeepers of London must have benefited by it; but he had never yet heard that they had an exclusive right to it. That the merchants of Liverpool, the manufacturers of Manchester, the warehousemen of Glasgow, had not a right to share in the advantages of this trade, was an assertion he had never heard doubted. The city of London had made no complaint of this injury, and he had no doubt that the citizens would readily admit that every village, town, and outport in the kingdom, had as equitable a right to a share in this trade as they themselves had. The noble Duke adverted to the injury arising out of the difficulty of remittances from India, which the noble Duke thought had affected the trade of the Company. It appeared that the East-India Company had been obliged to rely hit, herto, and up to this time, upon the assistance of private merchants, in bills, in carrying on the trade to Canton. But, without relying upon that instance, he would, upon general principles, say, that by whomsoever the trade might be carried on—whether by a Company, or by individual merchants—there would arise a

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necessity for the same, number of bills of be obtained in the market; and those bills would be applicable for remittances to the same extent as before, or even to a greater extent. When the noble Baron talked with something like contempt of the application of general principles upon a subject of this kind, he should be reminded that the arguments which he had used upon the subject were precisely, totibus verbis, the same arguments which were used against the admission of the private trader in 1813; and that sneers against the philosopher who advised the introduction of the private trader, were then employed by others from whom the noble Baron seemed to have borrowed them. The noble Baron deprecated theories and theorists, in precisely the same words, and with exactly the same confidence, as his predecessor in 1813, with respect to the success of the private trader in India. The private trader was, however, admitted, and what had been the consequence? Why, that he had completely succeeded and had beaten the Company; notwithstanding the privileges it still retained. While the latter had been declining, the former had gone on progressively increasing; so that the Company had little trade left, the private trader having engrossed it altogether. The noble Duke had alluded to some imputed misconduct of the indigo planters. Now, he denied that misconduct, on the authority of a report of the Magistrates appointed by the East-India Company to inquire into it. Those Magistrates were hostile to the planters, and would have condemned them if they could. But after they had inquired into 437 cases, they slated, that they found the presence and industry of these indigo planters to be beneficial to the country. The noble Duke had expressed also a great deal of apprehension at the proposition for allowing the free access of Europeans into India, who, he says, are not very likely to submit patiently to the control of natives. Upon this point, they had the distinct opinion of persons who had presided over the Local Courts in the distant provinces of India. The noble Duke attached so much importance to this part of the subject, that he must beg leave to trouble their Lordships with a few lines from the authority of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Bengal, who said, 'We leave the European owner, or occupier of lands, or the manufacturer, at great distances from
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Calcutta, amenable only to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, or subject only to the Mofussil Courts, with the limited powers which they at present possess—a system which would tend to such a system of fraud and injustice, and leave the natives so entirely at the mercy of the settlers, that I think it would be an insuperable obstacle to the allowing of Europeans to settle in the interior. I am, therefore, satisfied, that all persons in the interior of the country must be subject to the Courts of the district in which they reside.—The great extension of the British territories since the Charter of 1784, has given to the Court a range of jurisdiction which, at places remote from Calcutta, can only be considered a mockery of justice, if it be not the means of fraud and oppression. There can be no doubt, therefore, that difficulties and inconveniences are constantly arising from the undefined and uncertain state of the Court's jurisdiction, which are alike perplexing and harassing to the suitors, the Judges, and all who are concerned in the administration of justice.' He might add to this the authority of Sir Charles Metcalfe, who had been eulogized in high terms by the noble Baron, but in no higher terms than he deserved, and who had expressed his regret that the Supreme Courts had thrown any obstacles in the way of the settlement of Europeans. Sir Charles said, 'I have long lamented that our countrymen in India are excluded from the possession of land, and other ordinary rights of peaceable subjects. I believe that the existence of these restrictions impede the prosperity of our Indian empire, and of course that their removal would tend to promote it. I am also of opinion that their abolition is necessary for that progressive increase of revenue, without which our income cannot keep pace with the continually increasing expense of our establishment. I am further convinced, that our possession of India must always be precarious, unless we take root, by having an influential portion of the population attached to our Government by common interests and sympathies. Every measure, therefore, which is calculated to facilitate the settlement of our countrymen in India, and to remove the obstructions by which it is impeded, must, I conceive, conduce to the stability of our rule, and to the welfare of the people

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subject to our dominion.' That was the opinion of Sir Charles Metcalfe, who certainly was not one of those persons whom the noble Baron would class as theorists. As to the division of the governments, that did not form part of the present Resolutions, but would become the subject of consideration in a future bill. The necessity of providing a separate government for the north-western provinces was universally admitted. He was inclined to concur in the opinion, that Calcutta should remain the principal seat of government in India, but he saw no inconvenience in forming a fourth presidency. There was no intention to disturb the councils as they existed at present, or the right of the directors to appoint whom they please to those councils; and he fully agreed with the noble Duke, that those councils should be councils of record, and that when any measure of sudden emergency was required, those who dissented from its propriety should state their objections in writing.
Lord Ellenboroughin explanation, said, that unless the speech of the right hon. the President of the Board of Control had been most strangely misrepresented in all the ordinary vehicles of public information, he had stated, that it was his intention to abolish the subordinate councils. He (Lord Ellenborough) saw in this bill that the Governor-General was to have an executive power. By a subsequent clause the directors were to have power to appoint the members of the council, but the clauses which came after that were so worded, as to suit a government either with or without council. Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman had never complained of the received version of his speech as a misrepresentation, and that the Bill had been so worded as to suit a government either with or without council, he had fallen into the error on which the noble Marquess had animadverted.
The Marquess of Lansdowncould undertake to say, without consulting his right hon. friend, that the report of his speech must be incorrect, for it had always been intended that the Court of Directors should have power to appoint the members of council. He would take that opportunity to mention a circumstance which he had forgotten to state before, and that was, that a noble Marquess who had conducted the government of India with no less renown to himself than benefit to the empire, the present Lord High Steward (the Mar
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quess Wellesley) had carefully considered the principles of the plan, and had authorized him to say, that had he been able to attend in his place, which he was prevented from doing by indisposition, he should have expressed his entire concurrence in these Resolutions.
The Resolutions agreed to.