Sitting of 18 February 1833

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, all Sums rated by the Commissioners of Sewers, in the South and East Division of the County of Middlesex, from the 31st of December, 1830, to August, 1832.—On the Motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, Accounts relative to Distillation, in Great Britain and Ireland.—On the Motion of Mr. O'CONELL, the Number of Churches in each Benefice in Ireland, and the Number of Persons charged with Criminal Offences, committed to the different Gaols in England and Wales.—On the Motion of Sir THOMAS FREEMANTLR, the Number of Prisoners indicted and tried at the last Michaelmas and Epiphany Quarter Sessions, for each County in England and Wales; for Offences which, prior to the Acts 2nd and 3rd, William 14th, cap. 34, 62, and 123, would have been Capital Felonies.—On the Motion of Mr. WOLRYCHE WHITMORE, an Account of the price of Corn, Grain, and Flour, and of the quantities imported of each sort into Great Britain, in the year ending 5th January, 1833.—On the Motion of Mr. SHAW, the Number of Offences, against the Law committed in Ireland during the years 1831 and 1832.—On the Motion of Mr. SPRINO RICE, a comparative Abstract of the two last Population Returns made in Ireland.
Petitions presented. By Mr. EWART, from Liverpool, for a National Plan of Education.—By Mr. MORGAN O'CONNELL, from Navan, for a Repeal of the Union with Ireland.—By Colonel LEITH HAY, from Elgin and Banff; by Mr. ANDREW JOHNSTON, from Dundee; and by Mr. DUNCOMBE, from Askham-Richard,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Mr. GODSON, from Kidderminster; and by Sir JOHN KEY, from the City of London,—against the Assessed Taxes.—By Lord ASHLEY, from Idle,—in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill.—By Mr. DUNCOMBE, from the Bailiffs and Burgesses of Sear-borough, complaining of certain Allegations contained in a Petition presented to that House by an HON. BARONET.—By Mr. HARLAND, from Durham, against Slavery; and by Mr. STRICKLAND, from the Protestant Dissenters of Eccleshill, Yorkshire, to the same effect.'—By Mr. W. WILLIAMS, from several Places in the County of Monmouth, for the Abolition of Tithes.—By Mr. O'CONNELL, from the Roman Catholic Clergymen of Navan, against the proposed Coercive Measure against Ireland; and from the National Political Union of Ireland, against the Vestry Act,—By Mr. MATTHEW HILL, from Robert Franks,—for an Inquiry into the Merchant Tailors' Company By Mr. FENTON, from Rochdale, for the Abolition of the Protestant Hierarchy in Ireland.,

REPEAL OF TAXATION.
Mr. Fryerpresented a Petition from the town of Wolverhampton, praying for the Repeal of the Assessed Taxes, in the prayer of which Petition he entirely concurred. He was sorry, that in answer to the question put to him last week upon the subject, the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) signified his inability to state whether there would be any reduction of the taxes until the expiration of the present quarter. In his opinion, the noble Lord and his colleagues should have, in the first place, effected considerable retrenchment, and a large reduction of the public expenditure, before they met the present House of Commons. He thought that not only the Assessed Taxes, but the duties upon malt, upon hops, soap, cotton, and wool, should be at once repealed. He

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did not mean, that those taxes should be taken off without supplying their places. The fundholder, for instance, should be taxed, he would tax him to the amount of 6s. 8d. in the pound. He would tell his Majesty's Ministers, that if they went on in the old way the voice of the country would not be with them, and of this he was certain, that the Reform Bill would be a complete mockery, unless the reductions he had mentioned should at once take place. The distress of the country was infinitely increased by the wicked, abominable, and infamous tax upon bread—a tax which was maintained to support the monopoly of the landholders against the people. That and many others might be reckoned amongst the blessed consequences of the working of that infamous and iniquitous measure, Peel's Bill. If he had heard the least promise of retrenchment—if he had seen the least prospect of good from his Majesty's Ministers, he would not have said a word upon this subject; but it was because he was sorry to find that there was little or nothing to be expected from them, that he had felt it his duty to state his sentiments thus plainly and unequivocally.

TAXED CARTS.
Sir Hyde Parker presented a Petition from the inhabitants of the hundred of Berbergh, Suffolk, complaining of having, in consequence of the last Act on the subject, which professed to be a mitigation of the tax on taxed carts, been taxed for the first time, and praying for a repeal of the tax altogether.
Mr. Humeobserved, that when the Bill of last Session was in progress in the House, he had expressed his opinion that some such consequence would result from it. A number of surcharges had been made, and numerous complaints had been communicated to him, of which he had given information to the Treasury. The effect of the Bill was to tax many individuals who had not been taxed before. They were, in most instances, persons eminently entitled to relief; but it was impossible to relieve them as the Act stood.
Lord Althorpsaid, the case was this. The Bill of last Session took the half of the old tax off from carts which were used by their owners, for the mixed purpose of the conveyance of themselves and their families, and the conveyance of goods to and from market. Formerly, if a cart
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were employed for anything but the carrying of goods to and from market, the owner was liable to a heavy tax; but there were several parts of England where the tax had been customarily evaded. In those places, the Act of last Session, instead of operating as a relief, had a directly contrary effect; for the officers of the revenue had, upon its passing, immediately called upon the parties for the half-duty, which they certainly felt to be a hardship. In other parts of the country where the old law had been strictly obeyed, the new measure operated as a relief.
Mr. Baringsaid, that although the measure of last Session had been intended as an act of grace, in practice it had in various cases operated injuriously. He hoped the petitioners would have some relief.
Mr. Spring Riceobserved, that the Act of last Session had operated as a greater relief than had been stated; for the employment of the cart under the old law for anything but the conveyance of goods had sometimes occasioned the Horse Duty to be levied on the horse, and the Manservant Duty on the driver, making a charge of 11 l. instead of 1l. 10 s. The Bill of last Session had but two clauses—the one reducing the tax on carts used for the double purpose of market and family conveyance, from '3l. 5s. to 11. 12 s. 6d.; the other containing all the previous exemptions.
Petition to lie on the Table.

SUPPLY—STAMP DUTIES.
Lord Althorpmoved the Order of the Day, for receiving the Report of the Committee of Supply.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, he proposed to submit to the House—as that, he believed, was the proper time for so doing—certain Resolutions which he had prepared respecting the grievances of the people, more especially relating to the undue pressure of taxation upon them. He would not attempt to tell them of what their ancestors did to obtain a redress of grievances before they granted supplies—he would not enter upon that—it was antiquated, and it was out of the question just then; but it was his duty, aye, he said it was his duty not to suffer that House of Commons to grant any supplies until he had been permitted to state certain grievances under which the people of this

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kingdom laboured, and until he had been permitted to show, as he would very clearly show, that the nobility, and clergy, and landed gentry of England, Scotland, and Ireland, were the most unjust body of men that ever lived on the face of the earth.—[Laughter and partial cheers.] They might laugh; oh yes, they might laugh; it was very well to laugh with the people's money in their pockets. "Laugh (said he), while you may: and laugh, when I have done, if you can." They might laugh for a time, if they only permitted him to state, and he would do it very shortly, a little part of the grievances of the people; and if when he had done they could feel satisfied, they might laugh still. In order that he might not be mistaken in his statements—for it was very necessary, indeed, not to be guilty of errors in such important matters, and in order that they might be more impressed upon hon. Members of that House—he had been very particular in preparing his facts, and had put them down on paper. He should not occupy them with trifling matters. The chief points on which he intended to engage their attention were comprised in two Acts of Parliament—the Stamp Duties' Act and the Auction Duties' Act. If ever partiality, injustice, and cruelty had been exercised towards any people, greater than was visible in those Acts, he would be content to forfeit any pretensions he might have to the possession of common sense. The 55th George 3rd, repealing other Acts previously enacted, made certain provisions, and fixed certain duties—exactions on stamps—and they would find, if they attended to his statement, that the nobility, clergy, and landed proprietors had taken care every where to be almost wholly excused from the burthen which fell with a most heavy hand on the middle and working classes, increasing in proportion as it reached the poorest. Men might laugh—let them laugh—but was that the way to conciliate the people? The hon. Secretary for Ireland said, the other night, that the Government must be feared before it was loved. That was his philosophy; but it was different from the philosophy of some men, and very different from his (Mr. Cobbett's). Hatred generally accompanied fear, except with regard to certain objects; and the experience of all told them the love always preceded the fear. His Majesty's Ministers,
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however, did not approve of that philosophy, and so acted in opposition to it; they wished to be feared before they were loved, and they would soon see how it would end. However, he was going to lay a statement before them which was not much calculated to excite the love of the middle and working classes towards those who called themselves the higher orders. What he referred to was cap. 184 of the 55th of Geo. 3rd, which was passed on the 11th of July, 1815, for the purpose of imposing certain duties on stamps, amounting annually, in the aggregate, to 7,000,000 l. and upwards, and, including the cost of collection, to about 8,000,000 l., of which the nobility, clergy, and gentry paid hardly anything. The utmost care was taken in preparing the Act, that the higher classes, as they were insolently styled, should have to contribute but a very small share; and it had been managed so as to make the tax heavier and heavier, as the payer became more and more poor and needy, on the poor and needy; so that the rate per cent of the duty charged upon the respective sums increased in accordance with the decreasing amount of the property. If it had been made out for the express purpose of degrading the industrious and working people—if it had been prepared with the specific intention of ruining the small proprietors—if it had begun, "Whereas, it is expedient, that the number of persons most deeply interested in the welfare of the kingdom should be diminished—that the little proprietors should be ruined or made to detest the larger ones, be it therefore enacted," &c. &c., it could not have been more efficiently framed for the purpose; and it had fully answered its purpose; for, in this whole world, there was not a body of men more cordially detested. Again, he said it was well for them to laugh—oh, it was very well, for they had the money in their pockets. Now by this Act various duties on legacies and on property coming by intestate succession were imposed, beginning at one per cent, and going on to ten per cent, but all freehold property was wholly exempted; and, therefore, from this tax, which was on an average three per cent on all other property in the kingdom, the estates of the nobility and landed gentry were free, while, if the father, the mother, the child of the fundholder, the tradesman, farmer, or other person bequeathed

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property, that property, if by will, bore a legacy duty of from one to ten per cent. Thus a brother, who had a thousand pounds left him by a brother, had thirty pounds to pay, and a distant relation of the deceased had, on a legacy of the same amount, to pay 100 l. This too, while freehold property was exempted! Yes, they must recollect this was while the rich man was let off free. Now where was the justice of this? Could the landowners of England—could these men look the rest of the people in the face while such a law was allowed to remain on the Statute-book? On what ground was this monstrous injustice committed? Would any Gentleman tell him? Why, it was on the ground of power—the framers of this Act had the power, and, therefore, they committed this very great iniquity. And they would continue such acts as long as they had the power to try the people of this country by courts-martial. And now for the probates of wills and letters of administration. He would beg the House to mark the scandalousness of this provision. By this very wicked act, if the deceased left property above the value of twenty pounds, his successors had to pay a stamp duty of ten shillings—that was to say, at the rate of two pounds per cent on the value of the property; but if the party dying left by will any sum from 30,000 l. to 500,000 l., the duty was only one pound ten shillings per cent, and in this case all freehold property was again exempted. They might laugh—let them laugh. But would the nation laugh, would the people laugh? A certain hon. Baronet, not then in his place, challenged him the other night to bring forward his plans, and had challenged him to bring forward what the hon. Baronet called his (Mr. Cobbett's) magnificent plans for alleviating the miseries of the people. He must say, that he had no grand plans—he had no magnificent plans, except the magnificent one of making certain people pay up their arrears, and do justice to the country. He asked justice for the people, and for himself amongst the rest. Why, if justice had been done when that hon. Baronet came to his estates, thirty years ago, 60,000 l, would have been paid by him to the country for probate and intestate succession duty; if the hon. Baronet had been taxed as he knew pretty well his children would be, that sum would long since have been
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applied to public uses. That hon. Gentleman had charged him—and very wrongfully so—with having exaggerated; he did not exaggerate at all. These exactions—these monstrous and cruel disproportions between the rich and the poor—were intolerable, and must, in the end, be productive of fearful results. They made the people vindictive, and must finally induce them to detest their wealthier neighbours. He would proceed to conveyances. The duty upon a thing of five pounds value, and under twenty pounds, was ten shillings; and the duty on a thing of a 100,000 l., or any sum above that, was a 1,000 l. so that in the latter case it was less than ten shillings per cent on the value of the thing conveyed, and in the former case, if of five pounds value, it was 200 s. per cent on the value of the thing conveyed. Thus the poor man paid twenty times as much tax as the rich man on precisely the same sort of property; and the weight of the duty went on increasing from ten shillings per cent to 200 s. per cent, exactly in the proportion that the value became smaller and smaller in amount. Thus the poor were taxed, while the rich went scot free. They might laugh—with their pockets full of the people's money they could laugh. Who passed that Act of Parliament? They were the worthy nobility and gentry of this boasted free country. And yet they found fault with the Jacobins, as they called them, for not adoring the privileged orders. In leases, where the yearly rent was five pounds, the stamp duty was one pound, or twenty per cent; but where the yearly rent was a 1,000 l., the stamp duty was ten pounds, or one per cent—and thus this tax went on from 400 l. a-year rental to 5l. a-year rental, getting heavier and heavier, but increasing in the small rentals in a disproportionate degree This was a monstrous injustice! What would be said of it? Oh, 'twas not known—it was done in a hurry—late, perhaps, at night. Then they ought not to work by night—let them work by day, and do their business properly and carefully as it ought to be done. In the case of mortgages and bonds, and securities of every description, if, for instance, the amount of the mortgage were 25 l., the stamp would be 1l. or 80 s. percent; but if the amount of the mortgage were 20,000 l., the stamp would be 20 l., or 2s. per cent, the poor man thus paying forty times as much tax as the

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rich man. The stamp in this case was no more if the amount of the mortgage were 100,000 l.; which compelled the poor man to pay 200 times as much as the rich one—the tax increasing in weight as the taxed person became poor. Why! were they honest men that passed such a law as this? Were they not persons professing themselves to be gentlemen—persons of high blood—men of lofty minds as they called themselves? Was not this monstrous injustice done by those who called themselves "the education of the country?" There was magnificence—there was justice! In respect to annuities, if the annuity were for 10 l. or under, the stamp was 1l.; and so, in due proportion, an annuity of 2,000 l. ought to pay a stamp duty of 200 l.; but, instead of that, it paid only 25 l.; and if the annuity were for 10,000 l. or any greater amount, it still paid 25 l. only—the same shameful disproportion as before detailed being observable throughout. And yet this was passed in England—the land of charity—of justice—of benevolence! Call this charity—call this justice, indeed! Why, the clergy of England ought to have preached against it constantly and devoutly for the last seventeen years from their pulpits. That was what they ought to have done. Then they would have been of some use. Then the good people of Rochdale would not have petitioned, as they had that night, for the total abolition of the Protestant hierarchy. With regard to promissory notes and bills of exchange. If not exceeding two months after date, and for the sum of 40 l. or not exceeding five guineas, the stamp was Is.; and in the same proportion the stamp on 3,000 l. ought to be 28 l. 11 s; but it paid only 15 s. whilst for any higher sum the stamp was no more than 1l. 5s., instead of being, on 10,000 l. 95 l 4s. Thus, in the former case, the poor man paid nearly 1l. per cent, and the rich man 3d. per cent, and so on. In bills of a longer date than two months, the partiality was still greater, weighing still more heavily on the needy man. It is curious to observe here, what a fellow-feeling these high-blooded lawgivers have everywhere had for the rich; for the bulky Jews, or pretended Christians like Jews—no matter how blasphemous; no matter how base the origin; no matter how infamous the means by which they have raked the money together; if they have but great heaps of money, they are
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sure to be favoured by this aristocracy. How could such monstrous injustice be enacted? At first he was disposed to put it to the account of night-work—of inebriety—for he could hardly think, that noblemen and gentlemen would be guilty of such unworthy leaning to their own interests. In the case of insurance of lives, where the sum insured amounted to less than 500 l., the stamp was 1l.; if to 500 l., to 2l.; if to 5,000 l. or upwards, 5l.—so that the man who insured 10,000 l. paid only 1s. per cent, while he who insured for less than 500 l. paid 6s. 6d. per cent—the man of scanty means paying nearly seven times as much as the man of wealth. As to receipts. If the sum were for 2l. the stamp was 2d., if for a 1,000 l., 10 s., when in due proportion it ought to be 8l. 6s. 8d. The poor man here paid more than sixteen times as much tax as the rich man, and if the sum went on to a 100,000 l., or a 1,000,000 l., the stamp was still only 10 s. For any sum, too, expressed to be in full of all demands, whether for 2l. or a 1,000,000 l. the stamp was always 10 s. So that it might be fairly said, that the poor man in such a case paid a thousand times as much as the rich one. Next came the subject of appraisements. Here those who had the insolence to call themselves the higher orders had again the advantage, and they knew well how to keep it. No people surpassed them in that; and it appeared to him that this high-blooded nobility and their clergy surpassed even the Jews in greediness and low cunning. The stamps on appraisements offered them another advantage. They could not miss that. The stamp on an appraisement not amounting to 50 l., was 2s. 6d. If the things appraised amounted to 500 l. in value, the stamp duty was 15 s.; but if they amounted to more than 500 l., as they frequently did to 5,000 l. and sometimes even to 500,000 l.,—nay, if they exceeded that—though the amount was a 1,000,000 l. of money or more—the stamp duty was but 1l. They heard that, and could they know that such had been the fact? He hoped that they who had heard this statement had not participated in making the law, and he hoped they would not participate in keeping it in force. What! make the poor tradesman pay, as in this instance he did, nearly forty times as much on the sale of his furniture, as the nobleman did on the sale of

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his estate?—while the tax on corn, too, was kept up to maintain the high value of his estate at the same time. He now came to another part of the subject. He did intend—and his hon. colleague knew that such had been his intention—to make this representation privately to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he had seen any marks of an intention on the part of the Government to do anything for the people, he should not have moved this resolution. But he saw no such intention. On the contrary, he saw an intention to keep in force all the bad measures, and not to take off one farthing of the taxes; and therefore it was, that he made this exhibition of these crying wrongs, inflicted on the people by this unjust and mean nobility, clergy, and landed gentry. He saw in the Ministry a resolution—a determination—to carry through and enforce every measure, even at the point of the bayonet; and therefore he brought this matter under the consideration of the House. He now came to a part of this abominable Act—and, till he did come to it, he almost believed that a great part of those who passed it did not know what they were doing. He saw an hon. Gentleman take up the book, to see if his Statements were correct. The hon. Gentleman would find nothing in it contrary to what he had stated. But, however, as it was terribly wicked to be out one word in quoting an Act of Parliament, he would read the part. Till he came to that part of the Act, he thought they had overlooked the nature of the Act they were passing; yet still it was very strange that, by accident, they should make laws for the rich, and against the poor in every instance. He was glad, however, to say, that there was one part where they were perfectly impartial. In that part, the taxation went on decreasing in degree, from the rich down to the poor. What was that part? It was in the duty upon indentures—on apprentices' indentures, in which case all the parties were tradesmen—there were no sons of noblemen, nor sons of baronets, nor of ministers of State, nor of parsons, who were apprentices. "Oh! certainly; do take care not to let the poor pay as much as the rich." That was in apprenticeships where the amount of duty went on regularly increasing with the amount of the premium, till it reached 1,000 l., and they supposed, of course, that there would not be any premium above 1,000 l. They
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were just in that case, and he had to thank them for being so. But why did they not observe the same rule in other cases, where they themselves were concerned? They did not, in cases where they were to be affected, as the owners of estates. They showed there, at least, that they understood something about Cocker, as an hon. Baronet had told his fellow-parishioners. An hon. Gentleman, in presenting a petition from Wolverhampton against the Assessed-taxes, had called that a tax of wicked partiality. They had shown that partiality in this Act. At last, after laying taxes on every body else, there was one matter of relationship which they had not forgotten, which they had put at the end of the Act, and which was a total exemption from the operation of the Act, upon all bonds contracts, mortgages, conveyances, deeds, and instruments whatever, exempted from the Stamp-duty. "And for what, think you? Why, for building, repairing, or purchasing, houses or other buildings. And for whom, think you? Why, for the beneficed clergy!" Would the Reformed Parliament sanction that? Would they? Would they? Then, if they did, let them go afterwards, if they dared, and look their constituents in the face. He should now go to another part of the Act, and there he should show them the ingenuity used in framing it. It was said, that the country Gentlemen were lubberly jolterhead fellows; but see how careful they were here! They looked after the timber and underwood—their lands and tenements—so closely, that one might think they were tied to the trade of a grazier, or butcher, or timber dealer. An auction duty of 7d. in the pound was imposed on the amount of the sale of any "freehold, customary copyhold, or leasehold lands, tenements, houses, or hereditaments, and any shares in the capital or joint stock of any corporation, or chartered company, and of any annuity or sums of money chartered thereon; and of any ships or vessels, and of any reversionary interest in the public funds, and of any plate or jewels." Tradesmen had no plate and jewels; and so plate and jewels were to pay 7d. in the pound on their value; but, in all other things, tradesmen and farmers, reduced by poverty to Sell their furniture—these people, who could least afford it, were to pay 1s. in the pound; while the "careless and generous" nobleman who made the laws, was to

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pay, if he sold his property, 7d. in the pound—all the rest of the people were to pay 1s. But was that all? Far from it. There was a duty of only 2d, in the pound (value) on wool sold at any auction, provided it was so sold for the benefit of the growers or first purchasers; but if it came from Hampshire to London, and sold, or was carried thence down to Yorkshire, and then sold, it became liable to an auction duty of 1s. in the pound. Every thing was thus basely partial in this law—everything in it was mean and dirty! And was this the work of the high-blooded nobility? That was not all; no, nor half; for there was, besides what he had already mentioned, a total exemption from auction duty of several other things, which he should now mention—" all goods distrained for rent, or for non-payment of tithes." Aye, aye, goods so distrained belonged to the lord or the parson; the tax must not touch them. There might be a tax on the farmer, who was obliged to sell his stock; but not on the lord, when the lord took that stock for rent. In the next place, he called on them to mark the atrocity of this—yes, the atrocity—for it was impossible to use words strong enough to characterize it. All sales by auction for letting of lands and tenements, for lives or years, to be created by the person on whose account such auction should be held, were exempted from the auction duty. So were all sales of woods, coppices, produce of mines or quarries, or materials for working the same; or on the sale of any cattle, and live or dead stock, or unmanufactured produce of land, so long as such sale of woods, coppices, produce of mines or quarries, cattle, corn, stock, or produce of land be made, whilst they continue on the lands producing the same, and are sold for the benefit of the owner of such lands, or proprietor of such mines, or their agent. Did they mean to sit there, and represent that such laws ought still to continue in force? Were they the friends of the people, if they could bring themselves to declare that they would not look into this matter? Such were the facts of the case. Comment or advert on them he should not; for it would be impossible to make any observations stronger than were the facts themselves. What ought the House to do, then, if this state of facts were true? Hon. Gentlemen would have time to look into these acts, and see whether he was not right. There
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ought to be a Committee of the House to take into consideration these grievances—they ought to tell the people that at least they would look into these grievances. Let them tell the people so now. He would try them now. He should conclude with moving a series of resolutions, of which this was the last—" That on the 1st of March, this House will take into consideration the nature, tendency, and effect of the several Acts of Parliament which impose taxes on stamps, and on things sold by auction." All he asked, then, was to take these things into consideration. He would divide the House On the Motion—he certainly would do that and let the people see how many there were who were for taking these things into consideration. He did not want them to pledge themselves now, that they would repeal, or even modify these taxes; he only wanted them to say that they would take the matter into consideration. They must be satisfied that these laws were unjust—that they were most cruelly oppressive—that the rich, the noble, the landed, had long had the benefit of these laws, to the injury of the industrious classes; and that if that had not been the case, not one half of what we were now paying in taxes would have been necessary. That was capable of proof; Cocker would tell them that. There had been a proposition by one of the Ministers to take thirty per cent from the fundholders; but there would have been no need of that, if they who had so long had the benefit of these unjust laws had been pressed to pay up their arrears of taxes. If any noble Lord or hon. Baronet had escaped paying taxes, that, in thirty years, amounted to 60,000 l., the people had suffered from that; for the Government had borrowed that amount of money, which it need not have done if the taxes had been fairly levied on the noble Lord or the hon. Baronet. If an hon. Baronet made a sale of coppice and underwood to the amount of 10,000 l., on which he ought to have paid a duty, as poorer people paid it on the sale of their property, and he did not pay it, why, he got money into his pocket which ought not to have been there, but which ought to have been paid into the Treasury in due time. If that had been done, there would not have been any project to take thirty per cent without indemnification from the fundholder, while pensions, places, emoluments,

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and the whole mass of plunder remained as they were. The hon. Member concluded by moving the following resolutions:—
Resolved—That, by the Act of Parliament, passed on the 11th of July, 1815, being chapter 184 of the fifty-fifth of George 3rd, imposing certain duties on stamps, amounting annually, in the aggregate, to upwards of seven millions a-year, the utmost care has been taken to exempt the nobility and great landed proprietors from bearing any but a very small share of the burthen; and further, to make the tax heavier and heavier in proportion to the smallness of the amount of property on which it is levied; so that each tax goes on, pressing heavier and heavier, from the very rich down to the very poor, as will clearly appear by a reference to the letter of the said Act.
That, by this Act, various duties on legacies, and on property coming by intestate succession, are imposed, applicable to different degrees of relationship between the legatees and the successors, and the deceased; beginning at one per cent, and going on to ten per cent but that, from these duties all freehold property is wholly exempt, and, therefore, from this tax, which is, on an average, about three per cent, on all other property in the kingdom left by will, or coming by intestate succession; the estates of the nobility and landed gentry (including the advowsons and lay-tithes) are exempted; while the father, the mother, the child of the fund-holder, the tradesman, the farmer, or other person bequeathing personal property, has one per cent to pay on the amount of the legacy or intestate succession, while a brother who has had 1,000 l. left him by a brother, has 30 l. to pay on this duty, and while a distant relation of the deceased has, on a legacy of the same amount, to pay 100 l.
That, in regard to probates of wills and letters of administration, if the deceased leave property above the value of 20 l., his successors have to pay a stamp duty of 10 s.—that is to say, at the rate of 2l. per cent on the value of the property; but that, if the party dying leave by will any sum from 30,000 l. to 500,000 l., the duty is only 11. 10 s. per cent.; and that, in this case again, all freehold property is exempted.
That, in the case of conveyances of all sorts, the duty upon a thing of 5l., or on anything under 20 l. value is 10 s.; and the duty upon a thing of 200,000 l. value, or any sum above that, is a 1,000 l.: so that, in the latter case, it may be less than 10 s. per cent on the value of the thing conveyed; and in the former case, if of 5l. value, it is 200 s. per cent on the value of the thing conveyed; and thus, in this case, the poor man pays twenty times as much tax as the rich man on precisely the same sort of property, and under the same Act of Parliament; and that, as the Act will show, the weight of the duty goes on increasing from
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10 s. per cent to 200 s. per cent, exactly in the proportion that the value of the property becomes smaller and smaller in amount.
That, in the case of leases of lands, tenements, &c., where the yearly rent is 5l. the, stamp duty is 1l., or twenty per cent; but where the yearly rent is 1,000 l. or any sum above that, the stamp duty is 10 l., or one per cent.; and that tax goes on, from 400 l. a-year rental to 5l. a-year rental, getting heavier and heavier, but increasing in the small rentals in a most disproportionate degree.
That, in the case of mortgages, bonds, and securities of every description, if the amount of the mortgage, for instance, be 25 l., the amount of the stamp is 1l., or 80 s. per cent.; but if the amount of the mortgage be 20,000 l the amount of the stamp is 20 l., or 2s. per cent: that, in this case, the poor man pays forty times as much tax as the rich man; and that the stamp is no more if the amount of the mortgage be 100,000 l: so that, in a case like this, the poor man pays two hundred times as much tax as the rich man; and that, in this case, also, the tax goes on increasing in weight as the taxed person becomes poor.
That, in the case of annuities, if the annuity be for 10 l., or under, the amount of the stamp is 1l.; and that, in due proportion, an annuity of 2,000 l. ought to pay a stamp duty of 200 l.; but, instead of that, it pays a stamp duty of only 25 l.; and if the annuity be for 10,000 l., or any greater amount, it still pays a stamp of only 25 l.; so that here the poor man pays forty or fifty times as much tax as the rich man; and that, in this case also, the tax goes on getting heavier and heavier as the parties become more and more poor.
That, in the case of promissory notes and bills of exchange, not exceeding two months after date, if the sum be 40 s. or above 40 s. and not exceeding 5l. 5s. the stamp is 1s.; and, in the same proportion, the stamp on 3,000 l. ought to be 28 l. 11 s.; but that it pays only 15 s.; and that for any higher sum the stamp is no more than 1l. 5s. instead of being, on 10,000 l., 95 l. 4s,; and that, therefore, in the former case, while the poor man pays nearly one pound per cent., the rich man pays sixpence per cent.; and, in the latter case, while the poor man pays nearly one pound per cent.; the rich man pays 3d. per cent.; and that, therefore, in the first case, the poor man pays forty times as much as the rich man; and, in the latter case, nearly eighty times as much as the rich man: and here, as in all the former cases, the tax becomes heavier and heavier, as the tax-payer becomes poorer and poorer; and that in bills of a longer date than two months, the partiality is still greater, and weighs still more heavily on the needy man.
That, in the case of insurance of lives, where the sum insured amounts to less than 500 l. the stamp is 1l.: that, if it amount to 500 l,

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the stamp is 2l.; that, if it amount to 5,000 l., or upwards, the stamp is 5l.; so that the man who insures 10,000 l. pays only one shilling per cent.; while he who insures for less than 500 l., and suppose that to be 300 l. pays six shillings and eight pence per cent; and thus the man of scanty means pays nearly seven times as much as the man of wealth.
That, in the case of receipts, if the sum be 2l., the stamp is 2d., if the sum be 1,000 l, the stamp is 10 s; when, in due proportion, it ought to be 4l, 3s. 4d., that thus the poor man pays more than eight times as much tax as the rich man: and, if the sum go on increasing to 100,000 l. or 1,000,000 l. still the stamp is only 10 s.; and that for any sum expressed to be in full of all demands, whether it be for 2l., or 1,000,000 l., the stamp is always 10 s.; so that, in this case, it may be fairly said, that the poor man pays a thousand times as much tax as the rich.
That, in the case of appraisements not exceeding the value of 50 l. in the value of the thing appraised, the stamp is 2s. 6d.; that, if the thing appraised exceeds 500 l. in value, though it amount to a million of money or more, the stamp is but 1l.; so that here the tax falls almost wholly on persons in the middle rank of life, and the estates of the nobility and landed gentry are all nearly exempt; that an estate of the value of 100,000 l. ought to pay an appraisement stamp of 250 l., instead of the 1l. which it now pays; so that here the people in the middle rank of life pay, in many cases, two hundred and fifty times as much as the rich.
That, with regard to apprenticeships, the parents of a poor boy, who give no premium at all with him, have 2l. to pay for the indentures and the counterpart; that in this case, however, where nobody but tradesmen are concerned, the stamp goes on gradually and fairly from 30 l. to 1,000 l.; a premium under 30 l. paying 1l. stamp, and 1,000 l. paying 60 l. stamp; because, in this case, the nobility, clergy, and landed gentry are not concerned; and here we observe, that, while the poor boy's parents are thus taxed, the duties on settlements made by the rich pay only a 25 s. stamp on 1,000 l.
That there is a total exemption from this stamp-tax for all bonds, contracts, mortgages, conveyances, deeds, and instruments for making provisions for building, repairing, or purchasing houses and other buildings for the beneficed clergy on their benefices.
That, by several Acts of Parliament, ending with 55 George 3rd., chapter 142, which Acts impose duties on things sold by auction, a duty of 7d. in the pound is imposed, in Great Britain, on the amount of the sale of any interest in possession or reversion, in any freehold, customary, copyhold, or leasehold lands, tenements, houses, or hereditaments, and on any share or shares in the capital or joint stock of any corporation or chartered
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company, and of any annuities or sums of money charged thereon, and of any ships and vessels, and of any reversionary interest in the public funds, or of any plate or jewels; but that, on all sales of furniture, fixtures, pictures, books, horses, and carriages, and all other goods and chattels whatever, there is a duty of 1s. in the pound: while on wool, sold for the benefit of the land-owner or his tenant, or the first purchaser, the duty is only 2d. in the pound; and that, from this duty, all sales of goods distrained for rent or tithes, and all sales of leases of lands or tenements, and all sales of woods, coppices, cattle, live or dead stock, and all unmanufactured produce of land, and of all produce of mines, when the sales are made on the lands or at the mines are wholly exempted, as well as all the produce of quarries, or of implements used in quarries, mines, or farms; and that thug, while every product of the hand of man has to bear this tax in almost a double degree compared with lands and tenements themselves, the produce of the land bears no part of this tax, which is thus shifted from the shoulders of the great and the rich, and made to fall almost exclusively on the middle and working classes of society.
That, on the first day of March next, this House will take into its consideration the nature, tendency, and effects, of the several Acts of Parliament, which impose taxes on stamps and on things sold by auction.
Mr. Baldwinseconded the Motion, which he thought was practically directed to obtain an advantage for the people. He trusted that the Government would direct their attention to these matters, and use their utmost endeavours to reduce some of the taxes that pressed heavily on manufacturing industry, among the chief of which he mentioned the duty on glass.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the cases alluded to by the hon. member for Oldham as cases of inequality in the Stamp-laws, and the duty on auctions, arose, in some measure from the Stamp-duties being divided into different classes; so that the proportion of one duty to another was not so accurately marked as it might have been. He admitted that when the property came to equal a large amount, the Stamp-duty was not so high as it would have been if the rate of increase from the lowest sums had been regularly continued. They were regular to a certain extent. The hon. Gentleman would find that, in every case of taxation, for instance, in the Assessed-taxes, when the amount became considerable, the per centage on which the taxes had been calculated

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was diminished. As to what had been said about the duty on the transfer of freeholds, the hon. Member should recollect that the expense of conveying freehold property was greater than on the transfer of personal property. That was one of the reasons on which the amount of duty was small. Another ground was, that if the Legacy-duty on the landed property of the country was considerable, the whole of that property, in a little more than a century, would get into the hands of the Government. He was not answerable for Acts of Parliament passed in the year 1815; but he believed that what he had stated was then, and had been since, the reason given for the enactments in question. With respect to the Stamp-duties, ever since he had been in office, he had wished to bring them altogether under the consideration of Parliament. The bills on the subject were prepared; but he would leave hon. Members to guess how much was to be done, when he told them that 240 Acts required to be consolidated. There were eleven Acts to be passed; and he appealed to any hon. Member, especially if that hon. Member had had a seat in the last Parliament, whether, in the state of things that had existed within the last two years, it would have been an easy matter to pass eleven Bills through Parliament? He was not now under the same difficulties, and either himself or some other person connected with the Government would be prepared to bring the subject of the Stamp-duties under consideration. The hon. Member would then have the opportunity of discussing the difference of the scale of duties. He agreed, in some measure, with the hon. Member, that some of the duties on the lower sums were too high, and that some alteration was necessary. But he did not think, that such an alteration as the hon. Member seemed to want ought to be made; nor did he believe that the hon. Member himself, on a fuller consideration of the matter, and after hearing all that could be said, would entertain exactly his present opinions. He (Lord Althorp) should object to agreeing to the present Resolution, taking as it did the House by surprise: but he hoped and trusted that at another time, and in a more regular manner, the subject would come fairly under the consideration of the House. With respect to the matter mentioned by the hon. seconder, the
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member for Cork, as to the taking off the Glass-duty, he had no hesitation in declaring that his wish had been, to take off the duty on that manufacture; but he was bound to say, that after the taxes which had been repealed, and considering the situation in which we now stood, he could not make any promise as to the removal of that duty. The hon. Member for Oldham had represented that the Stamp-duties pressed on the poorest classes of the people. On the poor, but not on the poorest, he admitted that they did [An Hon. Member said across the Table: Indirectly they press upon the poorest.] Why, it was impossible to invent any tax that directly or indirectly would not, press upon every class in the community. All must have that effect. He confessed, that if he had his choice there were others which bore more directly on the industry and comforts of the poor, that he should prefer seeing taken off. He did not suppose, if he went over the statement of the hon. member for Oldham, he should not find it correct as to the facts stated; but he must say, that he did not agree with that hon. Member in his inferences. It might be true, that the effect of these taxes was what the hon. Member had described it; but he could not agree that they had been imposed in an unequal manner with the view and intention of relieving the rich and pressing on the poor. If that was their effect it was most unfortunate; but he must think that the hon. Member had in some degree exaggerated the inequality and its consequences.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, it seemed to him that the case had been made stronger by the observations of the noble Lord than it had been left by the statement of the hon. member for Oldham; for the statement of the noble Lord had, in effect, shown that there were other taxes in which the same inequality existed. That inequality did oppress the poor. He could not agree with the noble Lord that the poorest class were not oppressed by these taxes, for every man who wanted to rent a tenement of 5l. a-year—and wretched indeed must he be who in England did not rent a tenement as good as that—every such man was oppressed by these taxes. Every lease of such a tenement—[An Hon. Member said, that leases were never granted of such tenements]. Indeed! then, what security could such

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tenants have, that they would not be turned out at a moment's notice? But, at least, the poorest classes were directly oppressed by another branch of the Stamp laws, to which they must contribute if they wanted time to raise a sum, or to give security for a fellow-labourer, the tax pressed on them at once and directly. He hoped that the noble Lord would consent to a Committee; for to come and tell them that there were eleven Acts of Parliament, and that they should be brought in at some other time, was not affording that practical relief which the people of England were entitled to expect. All that was wanted was, a just apportionment of these taxes, and he did not yield to the objection to increasing the taxes on property. He wished, that the Motion had been drawn up in such a shape that they could divide the House upon it. He should suggest to the hon. member for Oldham to withdraw this Resolution, and bring it forward in another shape, and upon notice, so that every Member would be fully prepared to go into the subject.
Mr. Humealso recommended the hon. member for Oldham to pursue that course.
Mr. Harveycould not agree with the suggestion just thrown out for the adoption of the hon. member for Oldham, without at the same time taking the opportunity of saying, that during the six years he had sat in that House he had never heard a statement, and a motion in connection with it, so straightforward and practically useful as that submitted by the hon. member for Oldham. The hon. member had gone to the root of the evil, and in plain, unpretending language, advocated the interests of that class of the community which had heretofore scarcely found an advocate in that House. All civilized society depended on this great principle—that, however unequal the condition of parties might be, there should, at least, be equal law and justice for all. The hon. Member had proved that this was not the case. His Motion would work great good amongst the people. Unless Ministers were prepared to review the whole system of taxation, they must resort to the same measures of coercion in this country which they wished to apply to Ireland. When the hon. Member's resolutions should be read in every cottage, as he trusted they would. Ministers would find it impossible to stop the current of indignation which
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they would excite. The hon. Gentleman concluded by saying, that he was satisfied the House required a stimulus to the performance of its duty.
Mr. Robinsonthought it would be more easy to find objections in point of form to the Motion of the hon. member for Oldham, than to answer it in substance. He had called the attention of the House to this subject on several former occasions, and he was glad it was now again brought forward. He rose, from a sense of imperative duty, to inform the noble Lord, who was not blameable for this measure, that the species of answer given to the Motion would be anything but satisfactory to the country. In point of fact, these taxes pressed in the inverse ratio of the amount of property. The whole was founded on a most grievously unjust and impolitic system. He was surprised when he heard the noble Lord (whose acuteness he well knew) state that these taxes did not oppress the poor. He wished to suggest that, instead of having a Committee on the Stamp Acts, they should have a Committee upon the taxes generally. He asked the hon. Member for Oldham not to embarrass the proceedings of the House, by pressing his Motion to a division tonight. The reason for objecting to a Property-tax was quite evident, namely, that at present property was exempted, and those who owned it, would not, therefore, willingly consent to the impost.
Mr. Cobbettobserved, that he should be guided in his course by that which he thought most conducive to the good of the country, without much regard to the convenience of the House, and none to the consideration of what might be for or against his own character. That mode which seemed most likely to lead to a beneficial result he should adopt. He wished to make two or three remarks on what had fallen from the noble Lord.
The Speakerintimated that the present was not the fit occasion, according to the forms of the House.
Mr. Faithfullhoped that the Motion would not be withdrawn, and contended that, even though it might be tinged with irregularity, the Reformed House of Commons would not allow itself to be bound hand and foot by technicalities. He especially entreated the Solicitor General to proceed with his undertaking, the object of which was, to break up the monopoly of the law, and to restore the reign of

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reason and common sense, in the transfer of property. He trusted that the House, in its very commencement, would take such a course as would induce the people to place confidence in a Reformed Parliament, which alone could prevent anarchy and confusion.
Mr. Warburtoncalled the attention of the hon. member for Oldham to the fact, that the House was only about to proceed pro forma, as regarded the supplies. He concurred in the principle of the Resolutions; and if they were now withdrawn, printed, and brought forward on a future day, he had no doubt they would receive fuller and more satisfactory attention than if they were now pressed to a division. By such a course many votes would be gained to them.
An Hon. Membersuggested, that they should be separated, and that the proposal for inquiry should stand by itself.
Mr. Lloydrecommended the adoption of the suggestion of the hon. member for Middlesex.
Mr. Ruthvendeclared that, although he approved of the principle of the Resolutions, he would not thus hastily and prematurely vote for them.
Mr. Cobbettwithdrew his Resolutions.
The Report of the Committee of Supply brought up.

COERCIVE LAWS FOR IRELAND.
On the question that the Resolution granting 3,000,000 l. for the service of the year be read a second time,
Mr. O'Connellrose to address the House. Often as he had endeavoured to direct its sympathies towards the wrongs of his country, unhappy, ill-fated Ireland, he never felt so painfully anxious as at that moment. He would most carefully avoid all vehemence of expression—indeed he felt far too deeply to vent his feeling in mere vituperation. He had, on a former occasion, made use of the terms brutal and sanguinary" in reference to the Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne; that Address having since obtained the sanction of that House, he would no longer apply to it the language of reproach. His present object was far other than attempting to characterize by strong language the proceedings of Ministers towards Ireland, No; the injuries were so deep, that to denounce them in mere abusive language would deprive grief of its dignity. He could wish to
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address the House in reference to the threatened measures of Ministers so as to be known to belong to the country menaced, by his accent. He would speak, as he most certainly should feel it his duty to do, if Ministers threatened to deprive the people of England or of Scotland of the benefit of the laws, substituting in their stead the most iron and remorseless despotism. He would speak as he should feel if the liberties of Englishmen were threatened with destruction, as he should feel if outlawry were declared against the whole people of Scotland—as if either were about to be handed over, like his unhappy countrymen, to the tender mercies of two or three English military officers, provided they "have been two years in the service, and have attained the age of twenty-one." In this comparatively tranquil temper would he address them, hoping to obtain the ear, in pointing out in their true features, in all their hideous deformity, the measures with which his country was threatened by the King's Ministers—measures to which a free-born Englishman must feel that death would be preferable, depriving him, as they would, of all the rights of one not born in the veriest slavery. Yes, though an Irishman—a mere Irishman—the iron of despotism had not so eaten into his soul, that he did not bitterly hate slavery, and dearly love liberty. As a lover of liberty he denounced the cruelty—the madness—the wickedness—of the policy pursued so long towards Ireland, and which it was now endeavoured to crown by a measure depriving it altogether of the protection of the British laws. He had been taunted by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland and another hon. Member, and the taunt had been loudly cheered, with having, by his speeches and writings, instigated meetings in Ireland, from the personal consequences of which he had ever shrunk. Never was there assertion more destitute of foundation in fact, and he had a right to expect that such would be the understanding of the House. All the great anti-tithe meetings were held, not only without his suggestion, but when he was actually absent from Ireland. Indeed, were he not absent from Ireland at the time, the more than probability was, that these meetings would not have been held at all, and, so far was he from being the originator of them that he would have undertaken to prove before the Committee

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of Inquiry which he demanded the first night of the debate on the Address, that the suggestion of anti-tithe meetings originated wholly and exclusively from a friend of Lord Anglesey, and one who had received many marks of his favour. Then as to his shrinking from attending these meetings—no matter whence they had originated—why, the fact was, that he was in this country, full 300 miles from the nearest of them, and the Castle circular prohibiting them, after the issue of which not one was held, was in full operation before he left England on his return to Ireland. That showed the truth of the right hon. Secretary's taunt, and he mentioned the facts only as an appeal to the humanity of those who were so ready with their cheers whenever he was the object of calumny: but enough of self. He had said, be wished to invite their attention to the mad and wicked measures of coercion with which they were threatened in his unfortunate country. And, good Heavens! what a pretext was put forward by the individual who, in another place, was represented to have originated them. Was there a case made out with even the semblance of plausibility? Were they reasons worthy of a statesman to whom the destinies of a great people were intrusted? Reasons, did he say? Why, the drivellings of old doating senility—the ravings of antiquated womanhood—were more dignified than those gossiping stories so garrulously put forth as reasons for the measure he alluded to. They were told that the Ministers stood so well with that House that they could count on a strong majority; so undoubting was the confidence in the uprightness of their intentions that Ministers, who had already done so much for Ireland, would not seek for such extraordinary powers but with a view to effecting more good for that country. He could wish to see their claim to despotic power rested on their past doings towards Ireland. Let the House see what they had done. They had proposed two good measures—one of church Reform, and one respecting Corporations. He was ready to admit, that so far as the abolition of the Church-cess went—the first of their measures was a boon to Ireland, but no further; besides that its beneficent operations would be wholly prospective, it relieved no other existing burthen connected with the monstrous Church Establishment, and it left the tithe-war where it now was—in
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all its ignominious glory. It was true that he had met the announcement of the measure cheerily; he was not disposed to retract a letter of his approbation of it" general tendency; it was too seldom that such opportunities of hailing measures of kindness towards Ireland were afforded him. He repeated, that the abolition of the Vestry-cess would be a boon to Ireland. He would go further, and say, that it would be a boon to a greater extent than the noble Lord (Althorp) himself had stated. The noble Lord had valued that cess at from 60,000 l. to 70,000 l. per annum, it was more; it was nearer to 80,000 l., and was certainly 70,000 l. But how could the noble Lord, with such a fact staring him in the face, have rated the entire Church property in Ireland, with its thousands of acres, and its rents, and its tithes, so low as from 700,000 l. to 800,000 l. per annum? What, only ten times more than the Vestry-cess? The supposition was absurd; so much so, that he need only thus point it out to prove its base delusion. But no other burthen or grievance would be relieved by the proposed Church Reform, and the war against the poor man's pigs and his tenth potatoe would not be even suspended by it. Then why, it might be asked, did he the other evening so warmly approve of it? Because it established a good principle—because it admitted what had been so often denied in that House and elsewhere, that the Irish Church Establishment was far too massive and costly for the wants, ay, the spiritual wants, of its members—according to the noble Lord, at least twice too large. Hitherto the monstrous abuses of that Establishment were bolstered up by the assertion of the spiritual wants of its members—that is, that the tithes and Church cesses and Episcopal rentals were justifiably collected, in order to reward those who ministered to those spiritual wants for their labours. But the noble Lord's measure recognized an admirable principle, from which he could not shrink—namely, that where there were no spiritual wants, there was to be no spiritual receiver of tithes and Church rentals, and he, therefore, hailed it with satisfaction; indeed, Ministers had already acted on that principle themselves: they had kept the vacant bishopric of Water-ford just like a dummy hand in whist, not filled up by any actual person, and yet open to an occupant. Of course the spiritual

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wants of the bishopric were not very pressing, otherwise they would not thus have made a dummy of it: and as there were no spiritual wants, of course there was no spiritual administrant to be rewarded. On this excellent principle of—no work no pay—the noble Lord promised them ten other dummies in the Irish Church; and thus the properly of these ten do-nothings would be available to the purposes of the State. To say otherwise, and to maintain that the overplus Church property should be applied only to ecclesiastical purposes, was a fantastical assertion which every honest and intelligent man in either country would scout with scorn. Having made the admission of these excellent principles of Church Reform, they might invest their Ecclesiastical Commissioners with as many cobweb forms and injunctions as they pleased, that admission could not be eluded, and the measure would produce much more benefit (and he was anxious that this should be understood elsewhere) than might be apparent on the face of it. But if prospective benefits might arise from the measure, it did pot afford any present relief to the distresses of Ireland. Would the wretched peasant have one potatoe more to eat, or would a day's more employment be given to the starving labourers of the present generation. Was there anything to mitigate existing suffering, or to conciliate towards a government the affections of a population driven to extremities by its misconduct? He entreated the noble Lord to look at the present turbulent state of Ireland. He would not enter into the measure of Corporate Reform for Ireland, though he was quite ready to give Ministers full credit for intended benefits. No man should find him stingy in his praise of anything which would promote his country's good. Before he proceeded further, he thought it but due to the right hon. Secretary for Ireland to declare, that he had heard his declarations the other evening of regard for Ireland with heartfelt satisfaction. He gave him full credit for their sincerity; indeed, the right hon. Gentleman's expressions were music to his soul," and he begged the right hon. Gentleman to understand, that he should deeply regret if any expression directed against the statesman should have, for a moment, sounded like a want of courtesy, to the Gentleman. It was also but justice to the right hon. Gentleman to mention,
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that the right hon. Gentleman had clearly fixed the responsibility of the policy pursued towards Ireland on the government of which he was only a Member, and that his colleagues were as responsible as he was; indeed, judging by what had since taken place elsewhere, more so. That declaration was but justice to the right hon. Gentleman, whom in future he would not hold more responsible for the acts of the King's Government than his colleagues. But to return to the measures of coercion with which Ministers threatened Ireland. The House might, perhaps, laugh at what he was about to calmly state concerning those measures, nevertheless he would not hesitate to declare, that he hoped to see the day when the head of the Government which had dared to bring forward such an outrageous violation of all law and justice would be made to answer for his conduct to the justly indignant Commons of the United Empire. It was for that House that evening to tell the Minister who had thus insulted a Reformed Parliament—and in a voice, too, that could not be mistaken--that a Reformed Parliament would not sanction the suspension of all law, and would indignantly spurn coercion where a peaceable and constitutional remedy was practicable. Such was the object he then proposed to himself, for he was much more anxious to elicit the sentiments of the English and Scotch Members respecting the proposed despotic policy towards Ireland of Ministers than express his own. He had been taunted there and elsewhere with thwarting the views of Ministers by premature and uncalled-for objections. He ought to have awaited, it was said, the promulgation of their measures, confident that a Reformed Parliament and an enlightened Press would not sanction any measure of unnecessary severity and unaccompanied by measures conciliatory and remedial of the grievances of Ireland. He was not angry that he had been thus taunted; indeed, he hailed it as a pledge that he should be supported on the present occasion. The supporters of the Address had distinctly stated, that by voting for it they were far from pledging themselves to unconstitutional measures of coercion. No, they were not pledges for drum-head courts-martial, for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus, for the Insurrection Act, and the other mild and constitutional measures of conciliation and remedy promised them by Ministers, Those who, in a spirit of loyally,

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which even in its excess was to be respected, had voted for the Address did not pledge themselves to the measures of Ministers; and if they did not violently oppose the Ministers, they, at all events, had then the opportunity of calling upon them to halt in their mad and wicked career, by telling the noble head of the Government, that it was not so certain a matter that the people of England, speaking through their Representatives, would aid him in coercing Ireland into a state of utter degradation and slavery. They might tell the noble Lord to stay his despotic proceedings, because they were, moreover, quite opposed to the declarations of his colleagues [No], No? Pray did the House forget the recent speech of the right hon. Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. S. Rice) when, after proving, in an elaborate speech, that Ireland was the most prosperous and flourishing country in the world, he ended with the "lame, and impotent conclusion," of an admission, that its population was in a state of the utmost poverty and wretchedness? The right hon. Gentleman on that occasion taunted him (Mr. O'Connell) with having on former occasions praised the Whigs, and yet now denounced them. But where was the inconsistency? Did it follow, that they should hold up to praise the feebleness of eighty, for the firmness displayed by the same man at forty. Because he had justly praised Ministers for their excellent Reform Bill—was he, therefore, not to reproach them for their atrocious policy towards Ireland? The right hon. Gentleman taunted him—and that was what he wished to direct the attention of the House to—with having, without any proof or foundation whatever, thus denounced their policy towards Ireland as atrocious—asking him, with a tone of triumph, was such an epithet applicable to men who had not done away with Trial by Jury in Ireland, or who had not suspended the Habeas Corpus Act? Pray how would the right hon. Gentleman himself answer the questions now? He, a member of the Government, and as such received by the House as expressing its views and intentions, thus a very few days ago told them, that they whose ranks he had joined were incapable of such monstrous propositions; and yet—but all in good time—was it, he would ask, fair to the House, in Ministers who cheered their right hon. colleague, to thus permit him to deceive the House
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into a belief that no such coercion was intended? Was there no friendly hand to pull him back when he was thus committing himself and the Government?—no colleague to set the right hon. Gentleman right when he was denouncing him as a calumniator, for charging Ministers with designing measures which the right hon. Gentleman himself must now support? It was true, he (Mr. O'Connell) had more than once taunted the Whigs as the worst enemies of his country, and for doing so had been blamed by the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) among others, for ripping up old stories of national wrong, the very antiquity of which proved their inapplicability to the present state of public affairs. But he would ask, if he found the deeds of the present rulers of Ireland not only as mischievous and unjust, and as fatal to its welfare as any of bygone times, while they were supported by falsehood more glaring, were the Whigs of the present day to escape the reproach of the crimes of their predecessors? He owed it to the several hon. and ingenuous persons who, though lovers of liberty themselves, yet respected the character of Whig, to remind the House of the great debt of gratitude which Ireland owed to that party. When he told them that the grossest violation of a solemn compact in history—the violation of the treaty of Limerick—was the act of the Whigs, those Gentlemen might, perhaps, be less ardent in their admiration and less certain in their confidence. Yes that, the blackest spot in the annals of English rule in Ireland—the violation of the Treaty of Limerick—a black spot yet unwashed, was an eternal record of Whig perfidy. The Irish army in Limerick was numerous, confident, and well equipped, when that treaty, which pledged the Whig King, and his Whig Ministers, to granting equal laws and liberties to his Catholic subjects, was signed. Scarcely was the seal annexed when a strong French force arrived almost under the walls of the town. What did the Irish army do under these unexpectedly favourable circumstances? Why, unlike their Whig opponents, like men of honour, they had plighted their word, they refused the succour of France, they abided by their treaty. And what was their reward?—the most shameless violation of the treaty, in the first instance by William himself, and the still more atrocious "No Popery" Acts of the Whigs of the days

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of the Marlborough victories—the Waterloos of that time when the Whigs were, not merely strong, they were rampant in power—those "No Popery" Acts were all violations of the Treaty of Limerick. Well, but all this was obsolete. Be it so; let them come down to modern times, to the very Whigs now in office. In 1807 the Whigs were in office—certainly for a very short period; but, short as it was, long enough to inflict irreparable injury in Ireland—they then fabricated the Insurrection Act for Ireland, which was carried into operation by their Tory successors, with the entire assent of its original parents. In most meet sequence with this mild and conciliatory measure, the same party, and almost the very same men, now came forward with a measure, compared with which, in atrocity and despotism, all their preceding acts sink into insignificance, a measure which unites all the harshest features of all former tyrannies with some peculiarly their own, containing, among its minor provisions, the curfew tyranny of the Normans, and the suspension of the Habeas Corpus of the Tory misrule, and their own Insurrection Act and Martial-law, along with the rather novel propositions of unlimited imprisonment, by persons entirely irresponsible to any legal tribunal, with a total abolition of the right of petition, making the chartered right of every British subject a mere dead letter, so that no man in Ireland should in future dare to complain of any grievance, there being no tribunal to appeal to, no Parliament for the oppressed Irish to look to for protection, and the unhappy complainant being liable to imprisonment and loss of freedom, property, and perhaps life, at the suspicion or caprice of the Irish Government. These were parts of the accumulation of favours which the Whigs were about to confer on Ireland. Now, let it be understood, that if that atrocious measure passed into a law, the people of Ireland would be liable to loss of property and personal freedom—might be imprisoned at the mere pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant or the Irish Secretary, without any redress whatever, if imprisoned unjustly, for merely meeting together to petition for redress for their grievances. Nay, it depended on the mere caprice of the Irish authorities, and this to religious minds was well worthy of consideration, to pronounce a strictly religious meeting as incurring the censures of this
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law. But even these provisions were not all; there was one, if possible, still more atrocious behind—he meant the Bill for changing the venue.
Mr. Wynnrose to order. He begged to submit to the Speaker, whether it was within the rules of debate, that any hon. Member should discuss measures not yet before the House, and which were in progress in another place. While the hon. Gentleman was discussing general topics relating to Ireland, he did not interrupt him; but now he was entering upon the specific provisions of a particular Bill, he felt it his duty to interpose and to appeal to the Chair. The Bill to which the hon. Member referred, might perhaps never come before the House of Commons.
Mr. O'Connell: I have been given to understand that the King's Ministers have certain measures to propose; and before agreeing to any supply, I am anxious to ascertain the nature of those measures. I have not specified a single provision of those measures.
The Speaker: That which the right hon. Gentleman, who spoke last but one, has stated upon the subject of order is perfectly correct, and completely in accordance with the rules and practice of this House; but the difficulty I have is in determining whether or not the principles he laid down are strictly applicable to the mode in which the hon. and learned member for Dublin has brought the intentions—or supposed intentions—of his Majesty's Government under consideration. It is, I must assume, a matter beyond all question, that nothing is more disorderly or inconvenient, than that details should be brought under the consideration of this House, of a measure presumed to have been introduced into the other House of Parliament. The rule of order is perfectly distinct and indisputable; but the great difficulty I have experienced, and which must always be felt, is in drawing the exact line between a general discussion with respect to the intentions, real or supposed, of the King's Government, and the discussion of the details of a measure which public notoriety had declared to have been under the consideration of the House of Lords. There cannot, and there never has been, the slightest doubt of the accuracy with which the right hon. Gentleman has stated the rule of order; and the effect of that statement will I trust, be to prevent the hon. and learned Gentleman

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being off his guard in any further observation or inquiry he may address to the advisers of the Crown.
Mr. O'Connellthen continued to the following effect—the exceedingly courteous manner in which the opinion of the Chair is always announced in this House would, of itself, make me most anxious to avoid any topic that could in the slightest degree render it necessary for you, Sir, to advert to any course which I might be pursuing in any other terms than those of concurrence and approbation; but I really think that I shall not have any difficulty in reconciling the observations and inquiries which I have made, and those which I intend to make, with the rules and practice of this House. I rise to put some questions to the members of his Majesty's Government, respecting a measure which I understand they have in contemplation, and which measure they will not be able to carry into effect if the present vote of supply be refused. The Finance Minister of the Crown comes forward to demand a vote of 3,000,000 l., and thereupon I rise to speak to his general and particular policy; I am sorry that one member of that Government happens now to be absent—I mean the member for the prosperous town of Leeds—for I might in that case have had an opportunity of meeting, with some effect, the taunt which I suffered at his hands the other night, on the subject of a Repeal of the Union. I understand, that it is the intention of the Government to submit to this House a measure for changing the venue in Ireland. Now, when the hon. and learned Gentleman asked which was the mode best calculated to promote the ends of justice, and to secure to a man the benefits of a fair trial—which would be better for him, to be tried by a jury of prejudiced persons, or by twelve honest enlightened Englishmen;—when he aked that question, and in effect answered it for himself—I should have liked to inquire of him whether a native of the South would stand any chance of justice at all if tried by a jury of Orangemen in the North? That, in fact, was his argument; but I do not adopt the calumnies against the Orangemen of the North. But I take the hon. and learned Gentleman at his word, and if he looks upon a prejudiced Orange tribunal as most dangerous to justice, what does he say to changing the venue? I tell that hon. and learned Gentleman,
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and I tell his Majesty's Government, that the rebellion in Massachusetts, or rather, I should say, the revolution there, had its origin in a much slighter cause than that which now aggrieves the Irish people. I call it a revolution, and even had it not been successful, I should not have termed it a rebellion. It is not every struggle that deserves to be called a rebellion; if the right of the suffering parties be clear—if the oppression practised upon them be more than human nature can endure, who will call their just resistance a rebellion? What drew down the revolutionary war which separated America from England—what but the refusal to accord to the Americans any other than a trial by Englishmen? Something infinitely worse, however, is intended for the Irish than even the transmission of the Catholics of the South to be tried by the prejudiced Orangemen of the North. If such a course of policy be attempted, I hope most confidently that it will be instantly and signally defeated, I do hope and expect that it will be at once repudiated by the high-minded Re-formers of England. I ask, will such a policy be sanctioned by this House, composed as it now is, of a great body of enlightened Reformers, I ask you, the Reformers of England, will you say, that the Trial by Jury is to become dead letter, and that the Writ of Habeas Corpus is to cease—that the single declaration of one man is sufficient for the imprisonment of the Irish people—that we, the Irish, are to hold our liberties at the will and pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant, and that his single dictum is sufficient to put a whole district out of the pale of the law? The hon. member for Oldham, with the straight-forward good sense which marks everything that falls from him, declines to call this measure a suspension of the Habeas Corpus; he prefers using terms which have nothing of art in them, and he tells us plainly that which every man must understand, and which correctly describes the literal fact, namely, that this is neither more nor less than a power of indefinite imprisonment—an absolute power of imprisonment; and even when you do bring the Irish to trial, by what sort of tribunal is their guilt or innocence to be ascertained? Forsooth, by five military officers, who have been two years in the service, and have attained the age of 21.
Mr. Sheil: A majority of the five will be sufficient to find an Irishman guilty.
Mr. O'Connell,Ay, the majority of five. Three military officers, who have been two years in the service, and have attained the age of twenty-one, will be sufficient to decide on the lives, liberties, and properties, of Irishmen.
Mr. Stanleyrose to order. We find one hon. and learned Gentleman correcting another, in order that he might be most minute and correct as to the details of the measure submitted to the consideration of the other House; it is therefore a farce and an absurdity to say, that the hon. and learned member for Dublin is avoiding the details of the measure now before the other House; but he goes on and perseveres in the discussion of those details; knowing, at the same time, that his Majesty's Government cannot join issue with him upon any one of these details.,
Mr. O'Connell: The right hon. Gentleman says, that he and his colleagues cannot answer me; and by way of establishing that position, he treats me to an instalment of a reply. I confess I am utterly unable to comprehend what there is to prevent the right hon. Gentleman from following me through the whole course of the observations which I have been making. I attribute to his Majesty's Ministers certain designs, and I tell them that I will vote against going into a Committee of Supply, until I have expressed my opinions and feelings as to what those designs are said to be, and until I have ascertained precisely their scope and tendency Oh! give us some fair play. What; will you not only oppress the unfortunate Irish themselves, but silence their chosen though talentless advocate? Am I thus to be put down, and replied to by instalments?
The Speaker: I had hoped that I succeeded in making myself understood. I took the liberty of saying, that nothing could be more inconsistent with order, or more inconvenient in practice, than the discussion of measures pending before the other House of Parliament; and I said this the rather, because, at the moment, the hon. and learned Gentleman, the member for Dublin, was, if not discussing, at least touching very closely upon subjects actually under the consideration of the House of Lords; since then he has gone much further, and entered into a discussion of the merits of an intended tribunal, and arguing with respect to the
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numbers, ages, and other qualifications of the Judges of whom that tribunal was to be composed.
Mr. O'Connell: I am desirous of not transgressing order; and I really think, if what I have said, and what I intend to say, be viewed in its true light, no hon. Member will say, that it is out of order: and I am sure it is because I have not succeeded in making the form in which I pursue the object I aim at apparent, that I am thus supposed to be out of order. I do attribute certain designs—not to the right hon. Secretary for Ireland—because, for form sake, we will put him out of view; but I do attribute to the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, certain intentions with respect to Ireland—it may be that I calumniate him. If so, nothing can be easier for him than to wipe out any stain upon his character which such an imputation may affix. I attribute to him the design of placing the lives and liberties of his Majesty's subjects at the disposal of a majority of five officers of the line, not one of whom may be more than three-and-twenty years of age. I attribute to him the design of placing the lives and liberties of his Majesty's subjects in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant and three such officers. There is no obligation upon the noble Lord to sit silent: he may in a moment fling from him the imputation, and cast it to the winds, I say, I understand that he intends to propose and support a measure in this House, which hesitate not to describe as the most appaling instance of cold, heartless despotism—of a tyrannous determination to crush the freedom of a people, really unoffending—that the history of mankind can furnish. America revolted for less cause; for still a Trial by jury was allowed to the Americans, but it is denied to the Irish; they may be convicted and condemned by three ensigns or lieutenants, as the case may be. Need I suggest to the House that the members of the military profession, above all others in the community, are open to the influence of apprehension and the hope of reward; by apprehension, of course, I do not mean mere physical cowardice, but an apprehension of the displeasure of their superiors, and the hope of promotion in their profession. These judges, as they are called, are emphatically not independent. They may lose their offices—I say they may. The right to dismiss a military officer is a

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part of the prerogative of the Crown. Not only may the refractory be dismissed, but the supple and complying may be rewarded with the Government of round towers, and I know not what—yes, these are the tribunals to which I understand it is the intention of the noble Lord to propose that the people of Ireland should be subjected, and a tribunal, too, which shall possess the power to punish witnesses if they do not give testimony. I am old enough to remember the dreadful events of the year 1798; I remember that, in that year, an unfortunate man, named Grady, was brought before a Court-martial—I remember, too, that at the time to which I am calling attention, the great Catholic counties were every one of them quiet, and Kerry was so perfectly undisturbed that there was not a soldier in the whole county. In that county but one solitary outrage took place, and that was occasioned thus—there were a few ill-advised individuals who thought it a good measure to place a quantity of arms and ammunition in the barracks at Tralee, and the custody of them was confided to three drunken yeomen; some persons came from the county of Limerick, overpowered this slender guard, and carried off the arms; some persons, charged with this offence, were brought before a Court-martial, and tried. The witness Grady, when they were first taken into custody, said, he thought he knew one of them; he was not bound over, but he was compelled to attend the trial, and when he was then examined, and called upon to identify one of them, he expressed some doubts, and could not positively declare that he was one of the party—the unfortunate man was sent out, and endured 100 lashes—he was then called in, and required to identify the prisoner; this he was unable to do, and a second time he was sent out, and again received 100 lashes—again was he called in, and once more interrogated—again he declared that conscientiously he could not identify the prisoner, and a third time was he sent out to be flogged; but before the 300 lashes were inflicted, he fainted, and so ended the prosecution. Are we to have Courts-martial again in Ireland? are all the oppressive acts of all their predecessors to be revived by the present Administration? and are they to superinduce Courts-martial upon those? And, in addition to Courts-martial, are they to give the right of punishing
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witnesses? Are they further to improve upon that, by removing all legal responsibility? And is all this to be sanctioned by a body of enlightened Englishmen, assembled in the nineteenth century? We, the Irish Members, stood by your English Reformers during the long and arduous struggle for an improvement in the constitution of this House, and will you desert us now that the liberties of our country are at stake? I will not enter further into these details; why need I? If there be a lover of liberty in this House—if there be a single free spirit within these walls—I have said enough to prove all that my cause requires, and words can do no more. What do I require? Let the breasts of English Reformers respond to that interrogatory. What I say is, let no one man have the power of outlawing my country. Let the liberties of Irishmen not depend upon the results of talebearing. I demand inquiry—let me be confronted face to face with the calumniators of my country—let me have an inquiry at that bar—and let there be an end to the system in Ireland which gives the class of persons ostensibly employed to put down disturbances a direct interest in promoting and exciting them. Do not place the Irish in a worse condition than the negro slaves of the West Indies, who, happily for themselves, do not feel the degradation of their condition. Give me an inquiry in the face of day, and I pledge myself to show the real causes of discontent, and the sources of disturbance. Not only are the Irish people to be deprived of the other rights to which I have called attention, but they are to lose the right of petition—you impose upon them the most grievous penalties, and you tell them they shall not even complain. It was a refusal of the right to petition that drove the House of Stuart from the Throne of these realms—other causes might have contributed, but Englishmen would not endure a refusal of the right to petition. The last of the Stuarts infringed the religious freedom of the country. I agree with him in religious doctrines and discipline; but I reject, abhor, and despise him as a politician; and I maintain that his intolerance proves him never to have understood or felt the influence of that holy religion of which he was a professor. He infringed the right of petition, and that formed a ground for the Revolution; and that Revolution constitutes the title-

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deed of the present Monarch of England to his Throne; and a better title to it a Monarch could not have, though there has since been added to that title whatever advantage mere hereditary right could bestow. Now, I beg permission to put this question—Is not the right of petition as dear to Irishmen as ever it was to Englishmen? Is it not more necessary for us than ever it was for you? Have we not greater and more intolerable grievances to complain of? In poverty and misery, ought not the voice of Irish complaint to be heard? By saying to the wretched: you shall not tell your tale of woe, you take from him his last resource, and you impose upon suffering humanity its last horrible aggravation. I have been told that predial insurrection has been the consequence of political agitation. I say, that directly the reverse is the fact. Again I would repeat the challenge for inquiry, for I hesitate not to affirm, that every species of calumny I could disprove. I say further, that predial agitation has not been found to exist in any quarter where it has not arisen from local oppression. Take up any case of predial agitation that you think proper, and you will find it commencing with the usual crimes—the same quantity of murders committed; but the question for an enlightened and Reformed Parliament to determine is, how far Ministers were instrumental in keeping it on foot? I lately read in a newspaper one of the greatest falsehoods—and that is a bold word—that ever appeared in a public print. It stated, that the county of Cork is at this moment disturbed. There never was anything more untrue. It is equally untrue that the King's County, Clare, or Galway, are disturbed; neither is Mayo, Sligo, or any part of the North disturbed. In Louth a predial insurrection was recently stopped, but not by the interference of Government. I am sorry the member for Worcester is not now in his place, for I am sure, if he were, I should induce him to feel, that he had not done justice to Ireland, in voting impliedly for the coercion of Ireland, by supporting the Address; and I the more regret it, when I remember that there is no Member in this House whose support of Ministers is more independent, or whose opposition to them partakes less of a factious character. It does not become me to speak in public of anything that I myself
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may have done; but if I had the member for Worcester in private, I think I should succeed in convincing him, that I have succeeded more effectually than any other individual in preventing predial insurrection. So anxiously and earnestly did I engage in that work in the year 1822, that an address of mine appeared so useful to the humane and gallant officer who commanded the forces stationed at Cork, where the disturbances chiefly prevailed—I allude to Sir John Lambert—that, out of his own pocket, he defrayed the expense of printing and circulating 36,000 copies of that Address. I claim, then, to be most successful in preventing predial insurrection; and I will prove that assertion, if you will grant me an inquiry at the bar of this House. As to any disturbances that may exist at present, I maintain that they are confined chiefly to the county of Kilkenny. If any outrages have been committed in Wexford, I have every reason to believe that they have been committed by strangers. They have begun with one or two barbarous murders as usual [A laugh]. Do I palliate or deny the existence of crime? I do no such thing; but I differwith some hon. Members as to the causes. But that laugh proves, in an eminent degree, how ignorant this assembly is of the real state of Ireland; and if no other reason could be discovered, that laugh itself would prove the most powerful argument in favour of a Repeal of the Legislative Union; for it proves a perfect absence of knowledge with respect to Ireland, and a complete incapacity to legislate for that country. Once for all, I beg to repeat my protest against this system of Martial-law. I tell the House that Special Commissions would accomplish all that could be required—all that any man could demand. Special Commissions never have failed; or, if one failed, the second always succeeded. Two years ago, in Clare, the insurgents were complete masters of the country, but two Special Commissions put an end to the whole disturbance. If Government would only issue a permanent Commission of that kind, all difficulty would disappear. In Cork, two Commissions succeeded; in Limerick, two were attended with the same results; and so, likewise, in Clare and Galway. I will prove, too, at the bar, if permitted, that there would not be the slightest difficulty in obtaining honest and independent Jurors; there

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is but one instance of a Juror having been at all inconvenienced, even in consequence of any verdict he might have given; and that, Gentlemen, was the agent of an absentee landlord, and, therefore, not likely to be popular on other accounts, for everything harsh the absentee leaves to his agent, and everything gracious he assumes to himself. As to witnesses, the greatest misrepresentation has gone abroad with respect to them. I know one instance in the county of Clare where a witness attends mass and markets and every public place, though he gave testimony against the persons concerned in twelve assassinations. When a county happens to be disturbed, what does the Government usually do? They increase the police force. That may be a very wise and prudent precaution; but it would be much more judicious to increase the military force, for, by increasing the police, you give an influential class a direct interest in promoting disturbance. The hon. and learned Gentleman then read a letter from the reverend Mr. Fahy, of Tullough, describing the efforts made by spies in the pay of some persons not known, to seduce the people from peaceable habits, and prevail upon them to take unlawful oaths. One of those persons, the letter stated, was arrested, and the peasantry found the greatest difficulty in prevailing on the police to remove them to the County gaol. The acts of the police are arbitrary, and their authority is all-powerful, as may be proved by their conduct in the case of Paddy M' Hugh. His father is suspected by them—they enter the house of the son, a respectable person, and a freeholder—a rusty gun-barrel is found, and the police drag him, without remorse, nine miles from his dwelling, and lodge him in the jail of Tullough. In this instance, neither the house nor the gunbarrel belonged to the father. No Magistrate is consulted—no committal is signed. Why should there? It would be loss of time—unnecessary—the police are all and everything—their authority is sovereign! I remonstrated with them in this case, and promised that I would bring the affair before a Reformed House of Commons, where I could prove that this same prisoner—or rather this victim of police outrage—deserved to be remunerated by the present Government, if it wished to reward those who laboured for the pacification of Ireland. During the reign of Terry-Altism, this maltreated
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individual risked the loss of his life in defending his father, who refused to take unlawful oaths. I could bring before this House many more examples of loyalty given by men who are now to be put under Martial-law. I am ready to produce, at the bar of this House, evidence that will show whether the coercive measures proposed by Government be expedient or not. And I say to you, when I am prepared with such evidence, can you, ought you, to legislate for a country or a people without the most deliberate inquiry into it and them? What; are the people of a whole country to be outlawed upon the mere ipse dixit of a Minister? Their crime—see what it is—they interfere with the acts of a bad Government by petitions, and they are guilty of the most heinous of offences—political agitation. Oh, what folly in Ministers! They do not wish for a Repeal of the Union, yet nothing shows more the infallible necessity of that Repeal than their measures. They are contributing more to hasten a Repeal of the Union than all the agitators put together. And why should it not be so? Let us reverse the case. Suppose an Irish Parliament legislating for the English people, and passing such laws for them, as the English Government are now endeavouring to pass for the Irish, what would be the consequence? Birmingham would rise and send her determined thousands to remonstrate at the very doors of their senate-house; Sheffield would instantly give proofs of the spirit of her inhabitants; and the very stones of London would "rise and mutiny," until the spark that animated them was extinguished in blood. Englishmen would never allow themselves to be debased by such a measure; then why should Irishmen? For my own part, I have been accused of intentions that I never dreamt of; and if I feared calumny, I should long since have quitted the arena of politics. I care not bow much I am calumniated, when the vials of defamation are poured upon me on account of my exertions in behalf of my country. I deserve not calumny, and the English people will see that I do not, when I say, in my justification—if justification in my case be necessary—that I have ever been, and still am, most attached to a British connexion. Such an avowal may be turned against me in Ireland, but I risk everything rather than abandon truth.

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Yes, as long as I saw the utility of the connexion—and an immense utility may exist—I should prefer seeing this House doing justice to my countrymen rather than it should be done by a local Legislature. I repeat that this avowal is likely to be turned against me in Ireland, but I adhere to it, for it is my decided opinion. If I thought that the machinery of the present Government would work well for Ireland, there never lived a man more ready to facilitate its movements than I am. The only reason I have for being a repealer is the injustice of the present Government towards my country. That Government must be unjust so long as it lacks proper and impartial information; and this House must legislate, as it were, hood-winked, until the necessary inquiries are made by it. I have been accused of selfish motives when I agitated, and cried out for a repeal. I can be liable to no such accusation now, when I declare that this projected measure of his Majesty's Government is more conducive to a Repeal of the Union than all my agitation, though it were a hundred-fold greater. You may put down meetings, repress associations, smother public harangues; but tell me how can you gag private conversation and private communication, which, when resorted to, must be still more dangerous than open proceedings? The truth is—and I will out with it—that Ministers, in wishing to pass this Act of Parliament, have an after-thought. It is not directed against those who are repealers, for nothing can be less calculated to prevent Repeal. I'll tell you what it is directed against—and I only tell you what I in my conscience believe—its direction, its real intention, is to enforce the collection and payment of tithes. When this Act of Parliament shall have passed, let any parish resist the payment of tithes, and let, in that parish, by any—the clearest accident—be burned a corn-stack or a hay-stack, and then will it be seen to what the accident is attributable. Woe to such a parish, and woe to the man in it that dares refuse tithes! For them there will be no other mercy than the tender pity of dragoons and marines. Let the Reformers of England mind what I have just said; they will find the truth of my words—this measure is intended to effect the payment of tithes, and nothing else. When I say this, I know that I am only widening the accusations of selfish-
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ness with which I am constantly taunted; but I will again tell my accusers that I solemnly protest against every shade of midnight crime—that I detest and abhor as much—most probably more than they do—the very mention of murder and blood. I stand here the sincere but humble advocate of my country; and I am most ready to adopt any additional enactment with respect to it, provided it can be shown that such enactment will prevent the crimes complained of—will punish the guilty, without making the innocent suffer. I am for preserving the Constitution; for I wish that Ministers would have recourse to no means but constitutional ones; and I offer them—if my profession gives me any superiority over laymen—I repeat, I here publicly offer them, to the full extent, ray services and cordial co-operation. I suggest that constitutional law should be adhered to—that criminals or those supposed to be so, should be brought before a Jury of their countrymen—and that the Judges of the land should try them, and that they should not be subjected to the sentence of military officers. For the crimes of a few, why should a whole country be put under Martial-law? The only persons Government have to fear—and the only persons I fear—are White-boys and White feet. They, and such as they, are the only portion of the Irish who are enemies to the amelioration of their country; they alone oppose resistance to the execution of the laws; and it is against them alone, and not against the innocent, that severe measures should be directed. It is a calumny—a deep, false, and foul calumny—to dare aver, that the political agitators of Ireland are in any way connected with those infringers of the law. I have now, I perceive, trespassed for a long time upon the patience of the House, but I make no apology for having done so, since my voice has been lifted up in the pure cause of freedom and of constitutional liberty. I have a few remarks more to make—a few questions to put to Ministers. Why do you want extraordinary measures? Have you not already a watchful and most subservient police? Have you not reporters and short-hand writers in your pay? Do they not attend every meeting? Does not every word that is uttered reach you? Are not all public proceedings detailed in the newspapers? Have you not in your power, at your beck—a ready machinery to detect all that may be libellous

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and dangerous to you; and will not that machinery enable you to put a stop to all that you may object to? Why, then, demand coercive powers? You have Juries which try and punish. Ah! but your excuse is, that then there would be witnesses! You want none—you want no witnesses—no Juries:—Yes, you do; you want those Juries which will convict without testimony. I again beseech the House to demand that information be given it. I entreat it not to be biassed or led away by idle tales, or by the authority of any set of men, Ministers though they should be. I supplicate the House to insist upon a full, ample, and detailed inquiry into Irish affairs; for it is only after such inquiry that crime can be met with punishment—that it can be effectually obviated—and that relief can be afforded to the grievances which exist. But, no; you are called upon to legislate without having obtained any certain and satisfactory information. Well, you grant the powers that are asked of you. Will those powers—will Martial-law, think you, tend to relieve the peasant, or render him more tractable? Will they tend to do away with the evils of absenteeism? Will they make the landlord exact less—will they render him less grinding? To these questions I distinctly answer, no. On the contrary, this is the very process—this savagery of legal war, if I may use the expression is the very way to make the evils complained of increase to the most aggravated height. Let those measures be adopted—let tyranny be exercised, and to the troops of the Government that exercises it, will be presented the same image that struck Ludlow when he marched for three days through the now fertile and populous county of Louth—an image of desolation—not a vestige of cultivation—not a trace of human being! But this image will not be confined to one county; it will meet your troops at every step in their progress through the nation. I once more implore Englishmen to have recourse to inquiry, and not to find my countrymen guilty on the strength of the mere assertions of Government. I solicit inquiry; and if the result of it should be unfavourable to us—if Englishmen should think we ought to be governed by such measures as those now proposed, why then I shall be the first to say: let Ireland submit. She will submit, if she be found guilty; for never was a nation so willing to acknowledge
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her errors, and stoop to the penance that may be imposed for her faults. She has always given proofs of this spirit, though she has been told by Sir John Davis and Lord Redesdale, that with respect to her inhabitants, there was always one law for the poor and another for the rich. In the face of a Reformed Parliament I call upon its English Members to justify the expectations that not only the nation but the whole of Europe have in them. I call upon them not to give their sanction to these measures—not to condemn unheard, and confound every civil and political right. Before they act unjustly towards Ireland, I bid them be cautious, and reflect upon the monetary and commercial system of their country. I bid them, think upon the powers of Europe. Let injustice be done to Ireland, and you will see what weight England will have in the congress of nations! Let insurrection and rebellion be created in Ireland, and you will soon seethe value of your three per cents upon the Stock Exchange! Be unjust to Ireland, and your measures of economy will go for nought. You must have an increased standing army—you will have thousands of other mercenaries under various denominations, to support, and the taxation you complain of must be kept up, if not increased. Besides which, you will have its moral consequences—you will be accused in the face of Europe of ingratitude; and it will be said, that Ireland hates you, as she ought, if you sanction such measures to be passed against her. England, your country, is at this moment powerful, for she is compact, and as it were coiled up. If she is so, she owes it in a great part to Irishmen, who aided her in her political agony, saved her from the weakness resulting from the distraction of party; and restored her to the vigour that, when contented, she possesses. I sit down with the hope that the glad tidings will ere long reach my country, that independent Englishmen and Scotchmen will prove, by their resistance to the passing of those measures, that they prefer the inviolability of the Constitution to all other considerations. Their vote upon this occasion will not only preserve the Constitution, but render the Union of the two countries durable. I mean, if that vote be, as I trust it will be, against the enactment now projected by Government. May they, in the event of their resistance to injustice, ingratitude, and oppression,

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have their reward. There is one that I can promise them—their names, how uncouth soever their sound, will be re-echoed in the vallies of ray country, and, at the mention of them, blessings will be poured upon the heads of those to whom they belong.
Lord Althorpwas quite assured, that the House did not expect, that he would follow, in detail, the hon. and learned Gentleman, who had just sat down. He did not mean to do so; nor to discuss, for the present, any of the hon. and learned Member's arguments. But he could not help saying, that the hon. and learned Member had, in the most unusual manner possible, dragged in the discussion of the measures that Government contemplated towards Ireland. He would not follow the example of irregularity set by the hon. and learned Member, and would defer speaking upon the measure until it was brought before the House, when it would be seen whether the statements on each side were founded in fact or not. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated, at some length, the great evils that would attend the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; but when the measure was regularly before the House, the House would decide whether its temporary suspension was not preferable to the continuance of the evils with which Ireland was afflicted. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said, that there was no relation between predial and political agitation, and he referred to the state of Ireland in the years 1821 and 1824. He (Lord Althorp) should be prepared to prove, that there existed a close connexion between them, and that crimes were as great now as they were then, and consequently required the same remedies. It might be of some injury to his Majesty's Government to allow the statements of the hon. and learned Member to go forth without contradiction. He would not now disprove those statements one by one; but he would publicly enter his protest against their general veracity, solely with the view that Government might not be injured by them. If the duty devolved upon him to bring forward those measures in that House, he would not do so unless he found himself prepared to show that there were sufficient grounds for their adoption.
Mr. Fergus O'Connorcould not bring himself to assent to the temporary suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, nor to
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the introduction into Ireland of the Insurrection Act; and he joined with the hon. member for Dublin in imploring the House to refuse their sanction to such violent and extreme measures, and not to condemn Ireland to bloodshed and to every species of extemporaneous tyranny, without being heard in her own behalf. He had the honour to represent one of the largest counties in Ireland; and it had been asserted within the walls of that House, that the disturbances in the county which he represented (Cork) were carried to such an extent as to demand for their suppression the immediate application of those violent remedies which the measure in question contained. Now, he was perfectly cognizant of the state of the county of Cork, and he utterly denied the existence of any such disturbances as had been described, for there had not been a single case of outrage within the last five months in the county of Cork, with the exception of that to which the hon. member for the University of Dublin had referred; and he asked, was that isolated instance of disorder to be made the excuse for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and the institution of military tribunals in that country? Let him also refer to evidence in this case, which would be the more acceptable to the Ministers, inasmuch as he who furnished it was one of their own officers, and, at all events, would be acquitted by them of any desire to give a partial colouring to facts against them. He was acquainted with one of the assistant barristers for the county of Cork, and that gentleman assured him, not long since, that not one of the cases which had come before him in his public capacity for the last several months was in any way connected with political outrages. Were there not also many other Gentlemen present in that House who were able to state what the condition of the county of Cork had been for the last five months, and now was; and, in the face of such evidence, were the inhabitants of that county to be subjected to military force, and the arbitrary proceedings of irresponsible Courts-martial? And as to the chance of fair treatment which the people would have from these Courts-martial, he would venture to say, although the hon. member for Dublin was interrupted when he hinted at the possibility that the Crown would exert the power it possessed

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of suspending those officers who did not act in these Courts-martial, in accordance with the wishes of the Ministers—he would, he repeated, venture to say, that the year 1798 was not so far gone by but that the memories of many were impressed with the recollection of certain men, who, in the execution of the arbitrary powers in trusted to them, went far beyond the limits of their just authority, and who, notwithstanding, now filled situations of great emolument and honour in the public service. With whom did the military officers, serving in Ireland, associate, but the Magistrates? And would they not thus imbibe a tinge of those feelings which impelled those functionaries in the performance of their duties, and which disqualified them for executing the trust to be given to military officers by the proposed Bill? Were not the Ministers acting most ungratefully to thoseby whom they had been constantly supported during their struggle for the Reform Bill? Were not the members for Ireland their faithful adherents during the two Sessions which had been occupied by that measure? And did the Ministers think of suppressing the tithe meetings until after the Reform Bill was passed? Indeed, he might truly ask, if such measures as were now in contemplation for Ireland, were to be proposed for England or Scotland, would not they, their countrymen and fellow-subjects, be the first to assist them in struggling against such arbitrary proceedings? To whom were the provisions of the Bill to be confided? Who was to have the execution of them? Were they not to be intrusted, in reality, to the Magistrates? And who, of all the public functionaries in that country, had so far forgotten humanity and compassion as that body? He spoke generally, and he spoke too, with a knowledge of facts which bore him out in his assertion. He knew of instances where fines of 5s. had been doubled, and where people, on their refusal to pay fines of 10 s., had been sent to gaol. All he asked for his countrymen was, a fair and full hearing, and that whilst justice was constantly talked of, some would be granted them—some compassion at least for their miseries, be awarded them by the House of Commons. He was there, the Representative of 800,000 of their fellow-subjects, and he entreated the House not to suffer him to ask in vain for a redress of the grievances
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endured by his constituents. Was the military flag to fly over the judgment seat? Were the epaulettes and scarlet to usurp the ermine? Had there been a Mr. Grey, or a Mr. Brougham, in that House, would they not have defended his country from these outrages? Let it be remembered that Ireland contained 8,000,000 of people; and let Ministers reflect that, although they might destroy many thousands, yet there would be other thousands who would survive, and those would ever hold in remembrance the unnecessary and cruel effusion of blood that the measures now about to be enforced would cause, and which might have been avoided did there exist amongst the Ministry that spirit of humanity and justice which was ever the best guarantee for a nation's fidelity.
Colonel Conollyfelt himself imperatively called upon, in consequence of the assertions which had been made in the course of the present discussion, to state, to the extent of his knowledge what the real condition of Ireland was, and also the opinion he entertained of the measures about to be adopted to remedy that condition. The hon. and learned member for Dublin had exerted his customary eloquence in the taunts which he had indulged in, whilst characterising the conduct of Ministers towards Ireland; but he must acknowledge, that he did not think the taunts of the hon. and learned Member were, in the present instance, merited. He had ever deprecated having resort to such strong and forcible measures, as the Bill against which the arguments he had been listening to were directed was intended to introduce into Ireland; but he must acknowledge that a dire and stern necessity called for the instant adoption of such severe measures in this case. He sincerely deplored the situation in which the country to which he belonged was placed; but he could not silently stand by, and hear it said, that Ireland was in a state of tranquillity. His testimony, therefore, with respect to the present condition of Ireland, was, that the measures which he understood from report to be in contemplation. were absolutely and imperiously called for; that order should be restored, and that peaceable and well-disposed persons in that country should be delivered from a force which was infinitely more tyrannical than any power which could be delegated by the House to the authorities in Ireland.

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He could not pretend to know, at present, the extent to which the contemplated measures went, that were to be proposed to Parliament; but he did know to some extent the evils to which they were intended to put an end; and, he must declare, that the tyranny exerted over the opinions and minds of the better-disposed classes of the people in Ireland, was unexampled in any former period of history, however disturbed. He would assert, on his own knowledge, that there was no man in the provinces of Leinster or Munster, who could venture to express an opinion inimical or hostile to those of the organized disturbers of the public peace, by whom he was on all sides surrounded; nor could he exercise an opinion or agency, without incurring the most awful responsibility. He maintained his assertion, and would abide by its truth. He himself resided within ten miles of Dublin, and he had not very long since received a threatening declaration, that his house would be burnt over his head, because he had parted with a steward. The hon and learned member for Dublin had declared, in the course of his speech that evening, that he had never been within some hundred miles of any tithe meeting in Ireland, and that he had never presided at any such meeting. Now, he had in his possession, as a Magistrate, sworn declarations, wherein it was stated, that the hon. and learned member for Dublin had been the chief person at a tithe meeting at Leixlip, and wherein the declarator swore, that the hon. and learned Member, after exhorting the people over whom he presided as chairman not to pay one shilling of tithes, had walked off with 50 l. of their money in his pocket, which was subscribed for him. Were not such acts gross impositions upon the excitable and inflammable people of whom his auditors were composed? Here was a man, who, by playing with the passions of the people, was driving them to violations of the law, holding out to them impunity to crimes; and could he be said to have any humanity in his breast, and to be actuated by a regard for the happiness and welfare of the wretched and misguided people whom he thus misled? It was painful to him, to speak in the manner he did of his fellow-countrymen, but it was his duty to them which prompted him; and, if his voice could in any way be serviceable to his country, it was by disabusing the House, and by correcting
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the false and erroneous impressions which many persons attempted to give of the actual condition of Ireland. He would yield to no man who heard him in humane and liberal sentiments towards Ireland; but, notwithstanding he had been threatened to have his house burnt over his head, he would openly declare, that he approved, to the extent of his knowledge of them, of the measures which Ministers intended to resort to for the purpose of quelling the disturbances, and of restoring order and tranquillity; and he only regretted that the lives and property of the peaceable residents in Ireland had not been protected by the introduction of such measures at a much earlier period of the commencement of these disorders. He would not now enter upon any discussion of the nature of those remedies which were to be applied, but he wonld say, that every person of respectability in Ireland had been long in a discontented and dejected state, owing to the long continuance of the threats to which they were exposed; and that the measure was hailed by their friends as the only thing calculated to cheer them, and inspire them with hopes for the future; and, however much he might regret the departure of Ministers on the present occasion from the strict line of the Constitution, yet, in the circumstances under which they did so, they were fully borne out; and as far as he could, from the imperfect knowledge he possessed of their intentions, he approved of the measure, and would testify that it was imperiously called for, in order that life and property might be protected, as at present no security existed for either in Ireland.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that the gallant Officer who had stated with great distinctness that he supported the entire of the measures which were said to be in the contemplation of Ministers, had displayed a not unnatural predilection for that species of tribunal, which, it was rumoured, they were about to erect in Ireland, to supersede its ordinary judicature. The House would be competent to judge, from the emotions which the gallant officer had just displayed, how far he was likely to prove a calm, and dispassionate, and impartial Judge, if he were to be appointed one of the triumvirate of officers, who were to have the liberty or the exile of the people of Ireland in their possession. The descriptions of the gallant Officer were very vivid, but still there was in them a

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want of good drawing. He had spread his colours too broadly; but when his picture was examined in detail, it was found, that there was only one prominent feature in it. Everybody who knew, must admire the magnificence of the gallant Officer's splendid mansion in Ireland. It was no small portion of his (Mr. Sheil's) reminiscences, and, it so happened, that it formed no small portion of the gallant Officer's own. He was sure that the House would perceive that he had said nothing to the discredit of the gallant Officer; but he thought that the House would not forget, that the gallant Officer, in describing the disturbed state of Ireland, had limited himself to one fact, and that was, that he had been threatened to have his house burned over his head, merely because he had ventured to dismiss his steward. Now, when Gentlemen came forward, not merely to cast vituperation upon his hon. and learned friend, Mr. O'Connell, but also to present themselves as the advocates of peculiar principles, it would be better for them to go into more details than those into which the gallant Officer had entered. As the gallant Officer had stated that the whole of the south of Ireland was in a state of disturbance, it would not have been objectionable if he, who was member for Donegal in the north of Ireland, and lived in the county of Kildare, had stated some few items in proof of it, instead of expatiating generally on the lamentable condition of Ireland, respecting which, in a moral point of view, little doubt, he believed, was entertained. He could not forbear from offering his humble but sincere encomium to the gallant officer, for the impartiality with which he had conferred his support upon this measure, which, it was rumoured, but he could not believe the rumour, was in the contemplation of his Majesty's Ministers. It was rumoured, that the measure was not to be limited to one class of persons, or to one class of opinions; but that it was to extend to certain societies which prevailed in the county of Donegal, and which were said to be patronized by the gallant Officer. Unquestionably, therefore, the gallant Officer was entitled to their panegyric for his fairness, as he was now giving his approbation to a mass of measures, which were calculated to bring not only himself, but his friends, under the lash of this forcible, and he (Mr. Sheil) would add, oppressive law. He perceived
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—nobody Could help perceiving—that there was on the part of the House, a strong disinclination, founded on the sense of its inconvenience, to enter into the discussion of a subject which was not then regularly before it, and for which there would be many ampler opportunities of discussion. From the manner in which the suggestion of the noble Lord opposite was received by the House, he would not detain them longer by dwelling upon topics which had been so ably and so copiously discussed by his hon. and learned friend, the member for Dublin; because, independently of all other considerations, it would be most injudicious on his part to discuss this subject now at any length. He thought, however, that it would not be unimportant that one or two facts, which had come within his own knowledge, should be stated as to the condition of Ireland, in order that the blow, struck by the Legislature at the vitality of freedom, should not be struck in the dark. He abstained from going into a discussion of the rumoured measure clause by clause; but he felt that he should be justified in stating—nay, that he was compelled by his duty to state, one or two facts which required grave consideration by all those who were called upon to pass a measure of severity, unparalleled in the annals of legislation. The first fact was this:—It was not true—and he made this assertion without meaning offence to any man; those who thought differently might be misinformed, or might be acting upon impressions, which, though erroneous, they might believe to be correct;—but it was not true, that, in the south of Ireland, the administration of justice had not been effectual and complete. He did not intend to limit himself to vague asseverations like the gallant Officer—on the contrary, he would come at once to details. There were, in several counties of Ireland, various prosecutions recently instituted against the combinators against tithes. Those persons were charged with an offence, the trial of which was one that excited the deep sympathy of the great mass of the population, it had been alleged, that on these prosecutions the attendance of witnesses could not be obtained, and that jurors could not be procured. Now, he could from his own personal knowledge, declare, that both witnesses and jurors attended in considerable numbers. Were there acquittals of the defendants on those prosecutions?

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Let those who had heard that a system of terrorism prevailed in Ireland, which prevented witnesses either from coming forward, or from speaking the truth when they did come forward, and which prevented jurors from performing their duty according to the dictates of their consciences and the solemnity of their oaths—let those persons know, that in all those prosecutions, conviction was obtained against the defendants. Government obtained verdicts in the provinces; it obtained them in Dublin, not once only, but twice, for the alleged tithe combination at Bornabreena; it obtained them also in Kerry; it obtained them also in Cork, where the juries were Catholic; it was equally successful in Limerick; it was equally successful in Clonmel. He had heard, in another place, a person of great eminence, whose past life of public virtue would not, he trusted, form a singular contrast with his present proceedings,—he had heard that person, whose name however he would not mention, allude to those very tithe prosecutions as grounds for this measure of unexampled severity. Now, on this subject, he spoke from his own personal knowledge. There were three trials of this kind at the late assizes for Clonmel. He was on one of them, as counsel for the defendant. A vast array of Crown counsel was drawn up against him. Let such English gentlemen as had heard that witnesses could not be induced to attend, and that jurors could not be induced to pronounce verdicts against defendants in such cases, attend to the facts which he was about to recite. In all those three cases, convictions were obtained by the Crown. The defendants were convicted, sentenced, and carried off to gaol as prisoners, and there he believed some of them remained now, contributing the evidence of their pallid faces to the necessity of the abolition of the Trial by Jury, and the establishment of martial law. It had been said, that the administration of justice in Ireland was so imperfect, that the ordinary tribunals must be set aside, and that courts-martial must be established in their stead. The facts which he had just mentioned would enable the House to judge whether this was not the grossest delusion ever attempted to be practised on the credulity of Englishmen. He would then pass to another series of facts, for it was right that the House, and the people of Ireland, and the people of England too,
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should be made aware of the sentiments entertained by his Majesty's present Ministers as to the impolicy and injustice of these measures of coercion. He had been speaking all along of these measures of coercion, as measures which were only rumoured to be in the contemplation of Ministers. That they were really in their contemplation was a vile calumny, a "mere invention of their enemies," for it was impossible that men who had expressed themselves so strongly as they had done against the injustice and impolicy of mere Insurrection Acts could ever contemplate a measure which far exceeded in severity any Insurrection Act that had ever been passed. The history of the different Insurrection Acts might be very shortly told. In the year 1801, the late Lord Castlereagh first proposed the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and the substitution of courts-martial for the ordinary judicial tribunals in Ireland. He proposed it only for three months—" My wish is that this Bill should be only for three months, in order that Parliament should have time to go into an inquiry, in case it should be necessary to have the measure further extended." Who was it resisted that proposition at that period, when Ireland was looking to France for redress, not merely on account of the stinging anguish of her own wrongs, but on account of the magnificent spectacle of power which France then exhibited to the world? Mr. Grey insisted that it was a monstrous and unexampled violation of the Constitution to have measures of such a description as the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and the infliction of martial law upon so large a component part of the empire as Ireland passed without the slightest inquiry as to their necessity. But Earl Grey was said to insist that inquiry may be dispensed with, when, if rumour is to be credited, he is about to introduce a measure before which the Castlereagh code sinks into insignificance and evinces a regard for freedom. In 1807, Sir Arthur Wellesley introduced for the first time the Insurrection Act, having modelled it on a sanguinary statute passed by the Irish Parliament in 1796. Mr. Grattan expressed his concern that a bill of that nature should be necessary, and by so doing lost much of his former popularity. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day declared that it was against a French party, which was then popular in Ireland, that Mr. Grattan had

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directed the Insurrection Act. At that time the main body of the present Ministry put in their veto not only against the establishment of martial law in Ireland, but also against the unconstitutional suppression of the right of petition. In 1810 Mr. Wellesley Pole moved the re-enactment of the Insurrection Act; and again, in 1814, the same measure was re-proposed by the right hon. member for Tamworth. He begged the particular attention of the House to what he was next going to say, as it touched not only Ireland, but the present Ministers to the core. The right hon. Baronet, the member for Tamworth, on the 23rd of June, 1814, stated that 'there were combinations in Ireland, whose objects were to overthrow the existing Government, and to intimidate witnesses and jurors from acting independently and honestly in discharge of their respective duties in courts of justice.'* On the 8th of July in the same year, the right hon. Baronet brought in a bill to provide for restoring and preserving of peace in such parts of Ireland as were disturbed by unlawful combinations or conspiracies. In doing so, he read a letter, 'which had been put into his hand by an hon. Baronet, the member for the Queen's County, which stated that the Caravats were levying contributions from the little farmers every night, and seizing arms and ammunition wherever they could be found.'† He also described the outrages committed by the Carders, explaining that the operation of carding was performed with a wool card, with which the flesh was literally torn from the bones of the unfortunate creatures who happened to be exposed to the torture.'‡ That measure, so introduced, was opposed by a majority of the present Ministers. The state of things which that measure was intended to remedy was horrible; but was it exceeded by the savageness which is used as a pretext for the present measure? Certainly not. If the House wanted to know the efficacy of that measure, they might read it in the infamous burning of Wild Goose Lodge, when nineteen persons perished in the flames. In the year 1822, Lord Wellesley called for the renewal of this Insurrection Act, under circumstances which surpassed, in the number and diversity
* Hansard, xxviii. p. 164
†Ibid p. 648
‡Ibid p. 649
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of crimes, anything that Was now suggested by Gentlemen on the other side. For what did his despatches state? That the south of Ireland was in actual rebellion—that the peasantry in the county of Cork were in arms—that they had posted themselves on the hills—that they had fought a battle with the King's troops at M'Croom—that murder stalked abroad by day, and that conflagration blazed in all directions by night. You would rather have supposed that Lord Wellesley was describing a country in a state of war after an actual campaign, than a country in which no hostile force had recently shown itself. What, on that occasion, was the language used by those hon. Gentlemen who now formed part of his Majesty's Government? First, he would beg leave to call the attention of the hon. member for Cambridge to the sentiments which he then expressed. Mr. Spring Rice said, that it was quite unwarrantable to have recourse to coercion without previous inquiry. How could the noble Lord rely so much upon the efficacy of laws which, having been already tried, had proved totally ineffectual to the restoration of tranquillity in Ireland? Lord Bacon had observed that to allay sedition you must expel the matter of it. But he was sorry to say, that no measures were taken to expel the matter of sedition in Ireland."* He (Mr. Shell) wished to call the particular attention of the House to what followed next, as it came from a man whom he really believed to be a genuine lover of his native country—Ireland. "What must Englishmen," continued Mr. Spring Rice, "and particularly the English Members of that House, think of the constituted tribunal invested with such extraordinary power as to be able to transport their fellow-subjects for seven years to Botany-bay without any reference of the case to the consideration of a jury."† Again Mr. Spring Rice proceeded as follows:—" As to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, he would appeal to any English Gentleman who heard him, whether he would agree to the enactment of such a measure for any part of England upon such documents as had been produced by the noble Marquess? He called, then, upon the members for England to deal with Ireland as they would with their own country."
* Hansard (new series) vi. p. 122.
†Ibid. p. 123.

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"He called upon them, nay, he implored the English Members, not to allow the constitution to be unnecessarily violated or suspended with respect to Ireland; for if they did, they must prepare their minds for the consequences."* This was the adjuration uttered from this side of the House, of which the member for Cambridge was then an ornament and he (Mr. Sheil) would adopt the same language of emphatic entreaty, and implore them to deal towards Ireland as if she were truly incorporated with this great country. For God's sake do not tell us one day that Ireland is like Yorkshire, and another act towards us a part which would make the blood of every Briton boil if it were applied to himself. But to go on. What said Lord Ebrington? "That there was not a single sentence of the communication of the Lord Lieutenant which could be construed into a call for any extraordinary powers, much less for such frightful and oppressive measure."† What, too, said Sir F. Burdett? 'Of all the topics introduced into the royal Speech, the most prominent and pressing; was certainly the state of Ireland. It was impossible to look at the condition of that unfortunate island without the deepest commiseration: a kind, and industrious, and a generous people had been driven to despair; and surely it was fit, on an occasion like the present, that something else should be held out to them than the sword. Their sufferings were grievous in the extreme; in some cases it had been seen they were so severe that the inhabitants preferred death in any shape to living under such complicated miseries. Perhaps the noble Marquess opposite would again employ his old assertion, about a transition from war to peace; but was not much of what was now endured in Ireland to be attributed to a transition from a state of independence to what was miscalled a state of Union? The gentlemen of Ireland and the people at large had been cajoled and hoaxed into a belief that the Union was to be complete and beneficial; yet it had turned out a mere parchment Union, by which Ireland had been so reduced to the last extremity of distress as to cause a danger even of permanent separation. Ministers had not made a single attempt
* Hansard (new series) vi, p. 126.
†Ibid. 138.
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to carry into effect any of the idle promises by which the Irish nation had been duped into a consent to its own destruction and debasement.' The House was here informed of the instrument by which the wound was inflicted; but where was the balm? The hon. and learned Gentleman then proceeded to read on:—" What were the views of Government upon this important subject? It was clear, that something ought to be done without a moment's delay; and it was equally clear that conciliation, as well as force, ought to be employed. There were three especial and striking grievances that affected Ireland. The first was the scandalous pretence on religious grounds for excluding men from their equal and just civil rights. This free and unlimited participation had been proposed at the time of the Union. This was an obvious and practical evil, and unless the meetings of this House were mere! matters of senseless form, it was bound to afford a speedy remedy—a remedy at all times within its power. The next grievance was the manner and mode of the tithing system. In the year 1782 what was the situation of Ireland? If she was then distressed, at least she had an ear I bound to listen to the public voice: she had a Parliament, and under that Parliament, though calumniated, she had enjoyed a surplus revenue of about a million sterling."* What did Mr. Brougham—now Lord Brougham and Vaux—say? 'He would seriously ask whether Gentlemen perceived the extent of the power which they were thus intrusting to the hands of others? They gave to Magistrates a right to enter into the most retired and delicate part of any dwelling-house, and, after a reasonable time, if refused admittance, a power to force the chambers even of females; and should any person be found absent upon this domiciliary visit, without reason being assigned, he was liable to seven years transportation. And all this they did without the interference of a grand jury—without the petty jury, by verdict—without allowing the aggrieved party any satisfactory appeal.'† And this is the man who calls on us now to do the very self-same thing—nay, more, to vote not only for the statute which he thus reprobated as an outrage to all humanity and
*Hansard (new series) vi. p. 29 & 30.
†Hansard (new series) vi. p. 141

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all law, but with a super-addition that renders the former act merciful by comparison, and makes us desire as a boon the solitary blessings of the Insurrection Act. He had not yet done with the Ministers. There was another before him—the great champion of Reform, who had been so often gloriously defeated in its cause, and had at length won a victory which would be remembered to all after time. In 1824, the renewal of the Insurrection Act was proposed. What said Lord John Russell? He said:—" If we were told that in Austria, Russia, or Prussia, a law was in operation by which the people were confined without light in their houses for twelve out of twenty-four hours, should we hesitate to pronounce such a law arbitrary and absurd?"* And yet the Act which was arbitrary and absurd in 1824, the noble Paymaster of the Forces feels no compunction in supporting in 1833. So much for Ireland. Turn now to England; and see whether any Minister ever acted, or dared to intimate that he would act, such a part as you are about to perform towards your miserable and helpless dependent. In 1819, Lancashire was in a condition represented to be most awful. Hundreds of thousands were said to be in arms, and the town of Manchester was then in a state almost of volcanic eruption. Whynot, then, treat Ireland as Lancashire had been dealt with, and not trample upon her rights and liberties with the giant strength that England possessed? And what was it that the Government had acted in 1819 with regard to Lancashire, with respect to the condition of which county at that time he proposed to read a document which had been issued, bearing the name of Stanley—a document upon which the Six Acts were founded; but still there was an inquiry, for although the facts were notorious, yet, where the rights of Englishmen were concerned, it was not dared to trespass on the Constitution without inquiry; not, so, however, now, when Ireland, her liberties, trial by jury, the name of liberty, and the peasant's home were concerned. That document was to be found in Hansard's Debates, in the 41st volume. It was read before a secret Committee—the secret Committee, which it was found necessary to appoint before ever a motion was made to sacrifice any portion of the liberties of Englishmen. The document he was about to
* Hansard, (new series) xi. 1327.
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quote, was written by Lord Stanley, on Sept. 6,1819. Lord Stanley says, after describing the training and drilling: 'One of the most powerful, to which the disaffected have resorted, is a system of intimidation, which prevails to a most serious and alarming extent; not only have threats to persons and property been made use of, and put into execution, but even combinations have been formed to discountenance and to ruin those publicans and shopkeepers who have come forward in support of the civic power. To such an extent does this prevail, that individuals who are well disposed, have been deterred from expressing the sentiments which they really entertain, and from giving information which may lead to the detection of the offenders. The object of the lower classes, in general, is no other than to reverse the orders of society, which have been so long established, and to divide among themselves the landed property of the country. In one populous district no warrant for ordinary offences, or other legal process, can be executed; the payment of taxes has ceased; and the landlords are threatened with the discontinuance of their rents."* This document is signed "Stanley." It presents an appalling picture of the condition of a large portion of the north of England at that peculiar moment when public credit had received a great shock, and the fabric of the State trembled at the concussion. If this had been read as relating to Ireland, it would have been met with cries of "Hear." But in this instance the Habeas Corpus Act was not suspended—Trial by Jury was not abolished, nor Courts-martial raised in the stead of Courts of Justice. What course was proposed by Ministers? Inquiry was first resorted to; evidence was laid before a Select Committee, and the case having been considered in detail, the House proceeded to pass the Six Acts. Did they subvert the tribunals of the country, and raise a new military judicature on their ruins? Did they change the venue? Did they trample on the right of petition? Did they strangle all discussion? No! But they did introduce one clause, which they drew from the Irish Insurrection Act, which gave a right to a magistrate to break open a man's house to search for arms. He begged the House to hear—
* Hansard; xli. p. 267.

913
not a mere speech—not a flourish of opposition rhetoric—not a declamatory ebullition—but a solemn protest, entered on the Journals of the House of Lords, and thus embodied in the records of the country. The following was the protest:—'Because this law is in its very nature peculiarly liable to abuse; interest, credulity, malevolence, revenge, party violence, and indiscreet zeal, may equally, with a sense of duty, contribute to call it into action; and the powers given for its execution of breaking, either by day or night, into any house or place where information may have been received that arms are kept for illegal purposes, must unavoidably expose the persons and property of his Majesty's subjects to injury and violence that cannot be sufficiently guarded against by the provisions made in the Bill for that purpose. This is not a mere apprehension—experience proves that such effects may be expected from it; for in Ireland, it is well known, nothing more contributed to irritate the people, and to provoke acts of private resentment and revenge, than the abuses which took place, particularly the insults which were offered to women in the exercise of a similar power.'* Such was the protest upon the Journals of the House of Lords at this peculiar and most alarming juncture, and the first name signed to it was now the greatest in the present epoch of the Constitution—no other than Grey. The name so fraught with honour, so encompassed with fame, was sufficient; and wherefore should he waste time in denunciations of this measure, when that single name, attached to this recorded anathema against oppression, spoke with an eloquence as potent as it was brief, and swelled emotions in every man's bosom, and recalled recollections to every man's mind, which the noblest oratory and the most elaborate sanative would fail to produce. He had quoted many documents, but he could not deny himself the gratification of referring to one with which he should conclude. He had already stated that Lord Castlereagh, in 1801, had proposed Martial-law, and a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Lord Castlereagh had started a Reformer, and, as Curran used to say, came into the Irish House of Commons, "cantering on a grievance." He was originally almost a Republican.
* Hansard, xli. p. 755.
914
And it was said, that Mr. Grey in his reply to Lord Castlereagh, adverted to his early Jacobinism in these remarkable words:—'There were Ministers who, when out of place, were factious, who started questions to mislead the people, who lured them into schemes of Reform to overthrow an Administration, and then not only abandoned the people, but accused their old abettors of treason, for they had taught them so to do. If Jacobinism was licentious out of place, in place it was tyrannical, and filled the country with terror and coercion. It was the parent of Reform when out, and of despotism when in.'* Mr. Grey then demanded inquiry, and repudiated the doctrine, that a measure of severity ought to be adopted, because it was to be confided to hands so lenient as those of Lord Cornwallis. And where was the man who would now tell the House of Commons that despotism was to be established in Ireland, because a kind, generous-hearted man was to be its trustee? Was not this a most fatal doctrine? How long was he to continue the depository of the trust? The Viceroy might be changed, but the statute would remain, and whipping, and laceration, and torture, and all the horrible train of calamities that attend the exercise of military authority might, here after, follow this frightful measure—this system of tribunals in scarlet, and justice in regimentals. He should not accuse this Government, or any man connected with this Government, of any disposition to cruelty and actual oppression; but how could they guarantee the contingencies of the future? Their theory might become another's practice. They were to fabricate the law sword that Lord Anglesey might keep it in the scabbard; but hereafter another hand might draw it forth and steep it to the hilt in blood. It might be thought that these observations ought to have been reserved for the transmission of the Bill from another place. No, for it was of importance that at once, before any further progress in this enterprise of oppression had been made, the House, the Commons of England, the people of England, the Ministers themselves, should see what they were about to do. Behold the mass of ponderous manacles you prepare for Ire land! Examine every chain—weigh every link—and then you will, as we do, tremble
* Hansard, (Parl. Hist.) xxxv. p. 1023.

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at their imposition! You will shrink from the degrading office of fastening and rivetting them upon us. The Insurrection Act, Martial-law, suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, abolition of Juries, change of venue, extinction of the right of petition—discussion at an end—the incarceration of the peasantry in their foul and loathsome hovels, the denial to them of the very air of Heaven—the sacrilege to be perpetrated in the sanctity of their houses—their privacy violated—their wives and children dragged at the dead of the night, by a ferocious police, from their wretched shelter—complete, absolute, unqualified despotism established—liberty annihilated in substance, and not even its shadow left behind! Good Heaven! was all this necessary? Bad as the condition of Ireland is alleged to be, was all this unparalleled oppression, unexampled in the history of this nation, and unsurpassed in that of any other, indispensable for what was called the repose of Ireland? Nay, forbear, relent, we are at your feet—we are prostrate before you—your pride must needs be satisfied—give way to your better and nobler feelings, and remember that the assertion of the liberty of others is the noblest office you can perform, after the vindication of your own. He entreated the House to look to the manacles prepared, and consider well, whether the arras of Ireland were fitted to the imposition of so atrocious an encumbrance.
Mr. O'Connellrose to address a few words to the House with reference to an attack which he understood had been made upon him in his absence, and be now was anxious to defend himself from the allegations which had been stated—namely, that he had attended a tithe meeting; he, on the contrary, had never attended a tithe meeting. The hon. member for Donegal (Colonel Conolly) had stated, that he (Mr. O'Connell) had attended a meeting at Leixlip, but the hon member had not stated that it was a parish Meeting; but he alleged that it had been sworn in information before himself, that he (Mr. O'Connell) had directed the people not to pay tithes, and that, of a sum of money which had then been collected, he (Mr. O'Connell) had himself taken 501. If such had been sworn before the hon. Member, he had been guilty of the greatest dereliction of duty in not having sent forward such informations, and also, by such neglect, also, of an act of great injustice
916
towards him (Mr. O'Connell), because, if such had come to his knowledge, or if such were in existence, and the hon. Member would send them to him, he would not only indict the party for wilful and corrupt perjury, but he would also indict for subornation of perjury, every man who had the least participation in the procuring of so gross and abominable a perjury.
Colonel Conollysaid, that he had stated that a meeting, at which the hon. and learned Gentleman had attended, had been held at the house of a tenant of his (Colonel Conolly's) own—a man of the name of Herbert, and that there a collection had been made under the head of the O'Connell rent for that Gentleman; and that it had been sworn before him (Colonel Conolly), that the amount collected on that day amounted to 50 l. and upwards.,
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that if it was sworn that he had been at Leixlip on that or any such occasion, he did not hesitate to say, that it was a gross perjury. He well remembered having attended an antiunion meeting at Leixlip, but as to the story of money being collected at that meeting, or at any at which he had been present, no greater falsehood had ever been stated, either on a man's word or on his oath.
Colonel Conolly, had understoood that, on the occasion to which he had referred, that a scaffold had been erected for the reception of the hon. and learned Gentleman, but that he himself was not in the country at the time. He had, however, seen the spot on which it stood; and he could add, that the unfortunate individual whom he had named (Herbert) had actually solicited the rector of the parish to impound his cattle for the tithe, because he (Colonel Conolly) had declared that he would not receive the rent until the tithe were paid.
Mr. Stanleyagreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman who had so recently sat down, that it was inconvenient at present to enter into the details, or to canvass a measure not now before the House; but he supposed, from the tenor of the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, that having prepared himself for the present occasion, he felt it would be a great tax upon his patience to abstain from the argument until the question properly came before the House. He (Mr. Stanley) should not follow the example of the hon.

917
and learned Gentleman, in discussing a subject that might or might not be brought before this House of Parliament; nor should he have risen at all upon the present occasion, though desirous to meet the arguments advanced by the hon. and learned Gentleman, if it had not been that he wished to save the time of the House by entering shortly into an explanation of some of the facts to which the hon. and learned Gentleman had alluded, and with reference to which he had given a notice of a motion for the production of papers. To that motion it was not his (Mr. Stanley's) intention to offer any opposition—namely, the papers with reference to the legal proceedings at Clonmel, but he proposed to make an addition to those returns to which the hon. and learned Gentleman, he thought, would not object. The hon. and learned Gentleman had brought the transactions at Clonmel forward with a view to prove that the law was enforced, and that justice was administered without difficulty; that both ready witnesses and prosecutors were to be found, and that, as was most true, convictions had been obtained in every case. True it was, that convictions had been had, but the hon. and learned Gentleman stood forward now, and taunted the Government with desiring jurors to stand by, when only by the exercise of that prerogative fair and impartial justice could be done. The hon. and learned Gentleman had himself been present upon the occasion to which he had adverted, and he (Mr. Stanley) had not; and he therefore regretted the absence from the present Parliament of his hon. and learned friend, the Solicitor General for Ireland, because he had been taunted with having, in open Court, given directions to the Crown solicitors to set aside all persons on the Jury panel being Catholics. To that statement he, on the part of his hon. and learned friend, now gave the most decided negative, but, on the contrary, the instructions of the hon. and learned Gentleman had been, to set aside no man on account of his religion. No doubt a great majority of those who had been set aside were Catholics, but still there had been on Juries many individuals of that persuasion; but the difficulty had been to procure jurors, who, being free from danger or intimidation, would faithfully discharge their duty in the jury box. But the hon. and learned Gentleman had contended that there existed no difficulty
918
in procuring witnesses to prosecute, that there had been no intimidation, and that no particular agitation, provocation, or excitement prevailed amongst the people. What, however, had been the state of the country in October, 1832, with regard to the peculiar question of tithes? Why, meetings had been held in every part of the country, calling upon the people not only to resist the payment of tithes, but also to combine together for that purpose. And for such a combination three indictments at Clonmel had been preferred, besides another for the murder of a clergyman, but still it was insisted that there existed nothing bearing the semblance of intimidation. He, however, would read to the House a document which he held in his hand, published by the Clonmel Independent Club. It was a resolution passed and published by that society to the effect that they pledged themselves in the face of the country, individually and collectively, that they would not directly or indirectly, either publicly or privately, hold any intercourse with persons who should purchase stock or goods seized for tithes, church-rate, or vestry cess, and exposed to sale to support a pampered church establishment. Yet it was insisted that there had been no intimidation; of that he would leave the House to judge, and he would remind the House of the manner in which the system had been found to work, though it had been urged that jurors had freely and readily given their attendance. First, with regard to intimidation. The first case tried at Clonmel was that of Mr. Pennefather, a Protestant, and, what might still more surprise the House, the son of a Protestant clergyman. This gentleman was indicted for a combination against tithes, and the reverend Mr. Gould, one of the witnesses, residing in the neighbourhood of Borrisokane, and in the country where no intimidation prevailed, was obliged to be brought by a circuitous route, and under a strong escort, such was the danger of his life, to give his testimony, and, at the very period his brother was lying in his bed labouring under the effects of a murderous assault which had been made upon him, because he had become the purchaser of property which had been seized for tithes. Again, it had been said that the system of intimidation had not operated upon jurors in Ireland. In the case he had just mentioned thirty-five individuals had, it was true, been set aside by the

919
Crown; of course twelve had been sworn upon the Jury, but out of 205 names called, no less than 175 did not answer. A conviction, however, in this case took place, and the next indictment was against Griffin Dwyer and other parties, for the same offence, in which case one was acquitted.
Mr. Sheilintimated that two of the parties had been acquitted.
Mr. Stanley: The others, however, had been found guilty, but in that instance on the panel being called, thirty-seven persons were set aside, and 172 did not answer to their names. The third indictment was against a person of the name of Mulcahill, in which thirty individuals, summoned as jurors, were set aside by the Crown; yet before that number was set aside, and before the twelve sworn on the Jury could be found, no less than 244 names were called from the panel. He would now take another case which followed those to which he had adverted, premising that according to the system complained of, and which he did not deny—namely, that the first named on the panel (and who were usually the most respectable) did not generally answer to their names when called. And here he must state, that among those who had so been set aside by the Crown in the cases he had mentioned had been three gentlemen who, like the hon. Gentleman opposite, had attended meetings to oppose the payment of tithes, and had in other respects been active in resisting the system, but nevertheless had shown no reluctance to come into the jury-box to try parties charged with the very offence of which they had been guilty, or, in other words, to judge their own case. One person certainly appeared subsequently, but not in the jury-box, but at the bar, and pleaded guilty to an indictment charging him with the same offence of which he had been previously called to decide the guilt or innocence of other parties. Under such circumstances, it was the bounden duty of the officers of the Crown to exercise the prerogative with which the law had invested them. The Government, however, had again been taunted with having set aside Roman Catholics. In this respect he would refer to the case of the indictment of certain parties charged with the murder of the reverend Mr. Going, tried on the same occasion to which the hon. and learned Gentleman had referred. This
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was not a question of tithes, but a prosecution for a most deliberate and barbarous murder. Before the Jury was formed, 288 names were called over from the panel. Of these fifty-three were set aside by the Crown, and twenty-six by the prisoners, while others were excused from attendances, upon statement then made. The Jury, however, was eventually composed of four Protestants, and eight Roman Catholics.
Mr. Sheilwas understood to intimate across the Table, that the parties were acquitted.
Mr. Stanleydid not complain that the parties were acquitted: the proof of their identity had failed, and how, he begged to inquire, had the evidence failed? Why, because the son-in-law of the murdered man sent word that his own life was in danger if he appeared to give evidence against the parties charged with the murder of his relative. Could it then be said that intimidation did not exist, or that justice could be administered, when it was found that one man, to give evidence, was carried to the court under the protection of a military escort, lest his life should be taken; while another lay confined to his bed from the effects of wounds inflicted in a murderous assault; and a third declaring the dread he felt that his own life would be sacrificed if he aided in the conviction of parties charged with the murder of his father-in-law, because, as he said, "I know that I am a dead man if I appear in court." Set the whole transactions at Clonmel, and the oppressions, as they had been termed, of his hon. and learned friend the Solicitor General for Ireland, before England, Ireland, and the world, and then let the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite tell the House that in Ireland the law can run a free, fair, and impartial course.
Mr. Ronaynecould assure the House that the alarming picture drawn by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland of the state of that country was nothing different from its state during the last sixteen years. The right hon. Secretary had stated nothing that had not happened at every assizes in Ireland for the last sixteen years. He never yet was present at any assizes at which from 50 to 150 names were not called over before a Jury was empanelled. He was glad the right hon. Gentleman had introduced the subject of tithes. In Ireland there was a general

921
feeling against tithes, and if there were not, the Irish would not deserve the name of men. The oppressions of that country were without a parallel in the history of the ancient or modern world. An enormous revenue was collected there from the whole people to support a clergy whose religious faith was that of only one-sixteenth of the whole population. If that were the case in England, if the Catholics of Lancashire, for instance, claimed the religious ascendancy and civil supremacy over all the rest of England, would it be tolerated? He would not ask the Scotch Members whether their countrymen would endure such treatment. The noble struggles of their ancestors for liberty forbad the question. Ministers might desolate Ireland, and put down the people by the strong arm of despotic power, but they would not reconcile them to their system of tyranny and injustice. A facetious countryman of his had compared the people of Ireland to the geese in France, who were tortured in order that their livers might be enlarged from the agony of their sufferings, for the gourmands of that country to devour. So in Ireland were the people tortured to gratify the palates of the Bishops and inferior ministers of the Protestant Church. The coercion proposed for Ireland was solely to keep up the system of tithes, which would ever be received as a badge of national degradation, and a type of conquest.
Mr. Callaghanfelt it due to the constituency he had the honour to represent, to offer a few observations with reference to the measures of coercion proposed by the Government with regard to Ireland. He was in Ireland when the King's Speech, and the debate which ensued, had reached that country, and he must say, that every loyal man was astonished to find that his Majesty's Ministers had given such a description of Ireland as the facts did not warrant. It had been stated, that in Cork neither life nor property was secure; that the operation of the law had been defeated; that jurors could not be obtained, and that all justice was suspended. Nothing could be more incorrect than that picture of the district with which he was connected; and he must say, that the Ministers were not in possession of such facts as could warrant them in taking such a proceeding as it was rumoured was proposed. He could not but regret that clergymen should be now making false
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representations as to their incomes and the situation in which they stood. The clergyman of the parish in which he himself resided had stated that he had not received his tithes, but he (Mr. Callaghan) knew that he could have done so if he had so thought fit, but he preferred to come to the Government and the House to excite the commiseration of English Members, and to induce them to join with his Majesty's Ministers in depriving Irishmen of their rights and liberties. What would such a measure be but one of deprivation of liberties, by withholding the right of trial by jury, a right which, he trusted, they never would be deprived of, notwithstanding the observations of his Majesty's Ministers on the present occasion? The Government was acting under deficient information. When Lord Castlereagh had come to Parliament for the Six Acts, he came armed with documents to defend his proposition, but no such information had been now afforded to the House. The information of his Majesty's Ministers was false and delusive, and particularly as regarded the county with which he was connected. The jurors in that district had ever been ready to discharge their duties, and he had seen them adopt the doctrine of the Judge when it was not law. He had himself been present on a recent occasion when the Jury inquired of the Judge what was the law on the case, and were answered that the law was not written, but was before all ages, and had become the common law of the land. Now he (Mr. Callaghan) should like every man to know the law he was charged with having offended. The object of his Majesty's Government, in the present measure, was to prevent the Repeal of the Union. It was impossible that any country, treated as Ireland had been, could be quiet. So long as Whigs and Tories combined against it, and so long; as it was unable to look to the laws of England for protection, Ireland could not expect justice. She would not endure coercion, and the attempt would estrange every man in it from the Government. The measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers was not calculated to promote the peace of the country.
Mr. O'Dwyersaid, that the right hon. Gentleman had asserted that Juries in Ireland had been prevented from doing their duty, and witnesses from giving evidence; but in the course of his speech,

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with every disposition to support this assertion by facts, he had not produced a single fact to sustain his allegation. In every case to which the right hon. Gentleman had adverted there had been a conviction for the Crown. But the right hon. Gentleman had been guilty of an anachronism, which ought not to pass without notice. He had spoken of the murder of Mr. Going. Hon. Members might think that this was a recent affair, and connected with the opposition to the clergy. What would be their surprise when they heard that it occurred ten years ago? But there had been convictions, and witnesses did come forward. Had the right hon. Gentleman ventured to assert that any one of the witnesses at the Clonmel assizes had met with the slightest molestation? He did not find any cheer from the other side of the House to strengthen the right hon. Gentleman's statement. If the right hon. Gentleman Could have ventured to state that a single witness had been waylaid, the House would have rung with cheers. Yet the right hon. Gentleman called for new powers to repress intimidation, and protect witnesses. With every disposition to evade the facts of the subject, the right hon. Gentleman bad pleaded the present state of the country as the justification of the measure, which was an abrogation of the Constitution on the pretext of preserving peace. He would call the attention of the House to the Speech of his Majesty at the opening of last Session:—" The scenes of violence and outrage which have occurred in the city of Bristol, and in some other places, have caused me the deepest affliction. The authority of the laws must be vindicated by the punishment of offences which have produced so extensive a loss of life." But what said the Speech further?—"Sincerely attached to our free Constitution, I never can sanction any interference with the legitimate exercise of those rights which secure to my people the privilege of discussing and making known their grievances."* The King's Ministers did not advise his Majesty on that occasion to deliver a Speech like that, the result of which was to entail such distress upon his (Mr. O'Dwyer's) country; and he could tell them why—the people of England would not permit them; they did
* Hansard, (third series) ix. p. 4.
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not dare to do it. He declared that he would avail himself to the utmost of all the rights and privileges he possessed as a Member of that House, to delay the passing of a measure which, come when it might, would be the overthrow of the Constitution.
Mr. Edward Stewartobserved, that the Government had to-night been attacked with all the usual virulence from the other side, and with more than the usual unfairness. It was the general feeling amongst Englishmen not to strike a roan who could not strike again, yet his Majesty's Ministers were attacked when they were precluded from entering into a premature discussion. He had heard the powers asked for by Ministers condemned as an attack upon the liberties of Ireland. Ha hated oppression as much as any man, but he was prepared to maintain that liberty could exist only where the Jaw was paramount. Could it then be said, that liberty existed in Ireland, when armed parties were assembled at night by the ringing of bells, the lighting of fires, and other means, for the purpose of committing acts of lawless violence? If any one violated any of the laws they prescribed, it was at the risk of forfeiting his property or his life. This might be called anarchy, or disturbance, or insurrection, or rebellion; but, in his opinion, the most appropriate epithet that could be applied to it would be that of tyranny—the tyranny of the daring depredator and of the midnight assassin. He admitted that Ministers were bound to redress the grievances of Ireland, and the first that required redress was the want of law. He believed it was necessary to have recourse to strong and to extraordinary powers. He believed also that those powers should be full and ample; and, if it was requisite to suspend the Constitution for a time, the more decided manner in which it was done the better—provided the suspension was prolonged only so long as the disturbances continued.
Mr. Maurice O'Connellthought, from part of the speech of the hon. Member who spoke last, that he had been an Irish Member whom he had not known; he had, however, represented his Majesty's Ministers in that House as tongue-tied babies. He said, too, that that alone was constitutional liberty where the laws were paramount; and it was because liberty existed only where the laws were paramount that they, the Irish Members,

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opposed this measure. With respect to the statement of the right hon. Secretary as to the number of persons whose names had been called over at the Clonmel assizes, and who did not appear, it had been the practice to summon on the long panel three times as many Jurors as were likely to attend, and it was well known that for 2s. or 2s. 6d. the summons would not be delivered. The right hon. Gentleman should have slated how many were actually summoned, and whether any of the persons who had been called on the first list were called on the second.
An Hon. Memberdeclared that the south of Ireland was in a perfect state of peace, and that there had been no difficulty there in obtaining convictions, no intimidation of witnesses or Jurors. For what purpose were the oppressive measures proposed by his Majesty's Government intended? For the preservation of the system of tithes. Of this, however, he was convinced, that as long as the tithe system was continued, and as long as the tithes were levied in the present mode, so long would the Irish people be in a state of dissatisfaction. He had himself been a Catholic, he then became a Protestant, and afterwards a Presbyterian. But while he was a Protestant he never had had an opportunity of entering a church, he had never seen a clergyman, he had never been able to go to prayers. Why should tithe be paid by those who, as in his case, had derived no benefit from it? There never was a country so injured as that he came from. From the moment at which he heard of the measures which his Majesty's Government intended to introduce, he had not had a single night's rest. They pretended to call their measures measures of security and protection. He could call them nothing but measures of degradation and humiliation.
An Hon. Memberprofessed to entertain the best feelings toward Ireland, and had even heard with great regret the attacks which had been levelled in succession at the Lord Lieutenant, the Judges, the Clergy, and the Police. Those attacks argued badly for the persons by whom they were made, as they showed that they suffered with difficulty any kind of Government. At the same time he was very ready to allow, that if his Majesty's Government had managed the powers already intrusted to them with discretion and vigour, no additional
926
powers would have been necessary. He would also say, that a call for extraordinary powers came with a very bad grace from the present Ministers, since it was well known that, for the last fifty years, no Government in this country had been so strong. An indisputable proof of that strength had been shown in their having had the power to destroy the very House of Commons which placed them on the Treasury Benches, in their having had the power to control the House of Peers—in their having obtained an authority from the highest personage in the land, which they used for unconstitutional purposes [order]. He repeated it, that they had obtained an authority from the highest personage in the land, which they had used for unconstitutional purposes. From such Ministers a call for additional power came with a very bad grace. At the same time, looking at the state of Ireland, contemplating the midnight murders, the mid-day assassinations, the destruction of property of every description ill that unhappy country, he ad-milted that very strong measures were necessary to restore it to tranquillity. Ministers charged the other side of the House with agitation. But did he not see on the Treasury Bench a noble Lord who had himself unfurled the standard of agitation—who had spoken of the conduct of the Parisians in the revolution of July, and of the tricoloured flag with respect? Did he not see behind the Treasury Bench an hon. Baronet who, when he was on the other side of the House, was constantly bringing forward motions of agitation? How could his Majesty's Government complain of agitation, when, by their mismanagement, they had allowed the great agitator to escape after conviction? He would support his Majesty's Government on the measures alluded to, but he begged them not to suppose that they had his confidence.
Mr. Humewished his Majesty's Ministers joy of their supporter whom they had just heard. He entered his protest against the doctrine of the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman, that the time chosen for this discussion was inconvenient and improper. This was the very time for such a discussion. When the House of Commons were called upon to vote away the public money, that was the time at which to consider whether those who were to have the management of the

927
grant were entitled to confidence. He must say, that he never witnessed a more humiliating spectacle than the situation of the hon. Gentlemen opposite. No men in England ever stood in so disgraceful a position. Having changed sides in the House, there was only one man on that side who had not changed his opinion, and who still maintained the sentiments which he had always professed. The present was not an Irish question alone—it was one of immense importance to the people of this country. He was convinced that nothing could thoroughly remedy the existing evils in Ireland, but the destruction of that which had ever been the curse of Ireland; and that the entire removal of the Church Establishment in that country was indispensable to the restoration of its tranquillity. What had been said by an hon. Member was perfectly true—namely, that the people of England were now called upon to wage war with the people of Ireland for the sake of the Church Establishment. For that purpose Parliament was required to place 8,000,000 of people under military rule, and out of the protection of the law. He asked the people of England to look to themselves. The proposed measure was calculated to keep up the Estimates. Not a single man of our large military establishments could be reduced with such a measure in prospect. The Government would want all the force they could procure. The opinions which he was now expressing were not the opinions of yesterday. He had stated them when the subject was less a matter of importance to England. He had then declared that the Irish had always been kept in the condition of a conquered people; that civil war had been promoted—that civil rights had been denied; and all for the maintenance of that which was the great blot in the institutions of Ireland—the Church Establishment.
Lord John Russellhad not intended to address the House; but in consequence of the extraordinary and very violent attacks which had been made upon his Majesty's Ministers by the hon. member for Middlesex, he begged leave to say a few words. The hon. member for Middlesex talked of the change of opinion which had taken place on the Ministerial side of the House. He for one, on his own part, and he was sure that he might also answer for his hon. friends near him, was not conscious of
928
any change of opinion. No man, when he pretended to consistency, did more than state that the line of conduct which he pursued was consistent with regard to the object he had in view. The hon. member for Middlesex said, the object which he had in view was the total destruction of the Church Establishment of Ireland. That was an object which neither he (Lord John Russell) nor his noble friend near him ever had in view. What right then had the hon. member for Middlesex to call them inconsistent? In the course of the debate an hon. Member had done him the honour to refer to a former speech of his, in which he had characterized the Insurrection Act at that time proposed as a measure of oppression and injustice, leading the House to suppose that his former and his present opinions were directly at variance one with another. Probably such a change might be taken as a specimen of the manner in which accusations were supported. But if that hon. Member had referred to the beginning of the speech, he would find that he (Lord John Russell) had said, that there were circumstances in which he should consider the Insurrection Act in Ireland necessary. As a proof of this, he had then adduced facts that the Insurrection Act had been introduced several times, and he had never opposed it. But on the occasion to which the hon. Gentleman had alluded, he had maintained that, according to the evidence before the House, the Insurrection Act was not necessary; and being an enemy to any measure of extraordinary vigour, unless justified by necessity, he on that occasion, opposed it. Was it then to be maintained, that because he opposed the introduction of the Insurrection Act on that occasion, he was precluded from supporting it on an occasion when the circumstances of the case were entirely different? Although, in 1824, he opposed a measure because he considered it unnecessary, he was surely not liable to the charge of inconsistency, if, in 1833, and under very different circumstances, he supported the same measure, considering it to be, as his noble friend had termed it, the least of two evils—a measure which, while it caused a temporary suspension of liberty, was calculated to restore that public peace which was the foundation of all liberty. Whenever he had been the advocate for religious liberty with reference either to this country or to Ireland, he meant a religious

929
liberty equal to all. He never meant that any portion of the people should be deprived, for the sake of any other portion, of the power of acting according to their own discretion; he never meant that the Protestant who, in his conscience, thought it his duty to pay tithes to the Protestant Clergyman, ought to have his life threatened, and his house burned, for his opinion. Without inconsistency, therefore, he might support the measures now proposed with respect to Ireland. He wholly denied, that the argument of the hon. member for Middlesex had the slightest basis; and he hoped that that hon. Gentleman would not again indulge in a strain so unbecoming to him, but would confine himself to these economical speculations so peculiarly suited to the character of his mind. When the hon. Member attempted these new flights, it reminded him of one of the heroes in the "Dunciad," who, having—
"———climbed a stranded lighter's height, Shot to the black abyss, and plunged downright. The serious judgment all the crowd admire; Who, but to sink the deeper, rose the higher."
Mr. Finnobserved, that he was astonished at the noble Lord who had opposed the Insurrection Act in 1824, because there was no evidence of its necessity; yet now, without a tittle of evidence whatever, the noble Lord was, it seems, prepared to approve, not only of the Insurrection Act, but of measures of still greater severity. He would, as a Catholic, frankly declare it as his opinion, that tithes had long constituted a serious nuisance in the long catalogue of Irish grievances, and that the conduct of those clergymen and magistrates who were in the receipt of them had (and who could wonder at it?) earned for themselves the execration of the people of that country. The gentry had been, for a series of years, in the constant habit of going about in the Irish towns and villages, insulting the religion to which the greater portion of the people belonged, and abusing the priesthood to which those people were naturally and fondly attached. The only matter for surprise was, that the people of Ireland had so long and so patiently endured the monstrous and intolerable burthen of the tithe system. They had been finally provoked to resistance, and now fault was found with them because they took the right hon. Secretary opposite at his word; and when he spoke of the "extinction of
930
tithes," in their dull Hibernian intellects, they assumed that he meant that tithes were to be put an end to altogether. He would state to the House, for he had the fact from several gentlemen of respectability and local information on the subject, that the impression was, at the time, general in Kilkenny, and various other places in Ireland, that the present Government viewed the anti-tithe meetings which were so universally held, with a favourable eye, as being calculated to afford them a justification for bringing forward their contemplated measure of Church Reform. They were told, that these measures of coercion were intended to put down murders and robberies in Ireland. If that indeed were their object, upon the cordial assistance of no Members could his Majesty's Ministers calculate with more certainty than upon that of the hon. friends who sat around him. But that was not the main object of the measures in question—their main object was, to put down public opinion in Ireland, and to extort tithes at the point of the bayonet. For three centuries they had endeavoured, and endeavoured in vain, to extinguish the Catholic religion in that country—they were now about to enter upon a similar crusade to put down public opinion there; but he would tell them beforehand, that equal success would await their efforts. They would, forsooth, stifle by force the public sentiment as to the repeal of the Union! Their very attempt to do so would only excite a more general feeling in favour of that measure, for it was in human nature to resist coercion, and to spurn at oppression. It was, to say the least of it, mere drivelling policy to resort to force and violence—to the brutal arguments of overpowering despotism, with the view to crush the opinions of a whole people. He would tell them that the police of Ireland were not to be trusted; they lived upon the distresses and disturbances of the country. He felt it his duty to express his execration of the measures of coercion that were now brought forward by the Government. Such measures were calculated to wrench asunder the last link by which Ireland was morally connected with this country. The Irish had no inducement to remain connected with England save to enjoy equally with Englishmen that liberty which they possessed, but which they selfishly cherished for themselves alone, while they would seem to think that the Irish were unworthy

931
to partake of its blessings. The Irish Members had been taunted with the corruption and the profligacy of the Irish Parliament. It was English gold and English policy that had steeped that assembly in corruption. From 1782 till 1792, the brief but glorious interval of the independence of the Irish legislature, no country in Europe made so rapid a progress in arts and arms, in commerce and manufactures, in everything that betokened civilization and attended upon prosperity, as Ireland had done. But England, by a corrupt and crooked policy, once more regained the ascendant, and the result was that Ireland was trampled under foot, and her national independence utterly extinguished. He would tell the representatives of England, that the Irish people would continue connected with them upon equal terms, and upon no other. They would grant to them no exclusive rights of supremacy and dominion. The people of Ireland must have fair play; they must have equal rights with their fellow-subjects in England. They would never endure that the people of England should continue to play the imperious master, while they should be the obedient slave; that England should rejoice in the plenitude of constitutional freedom, while Ireland should be sunk in the depths of miserable servitude. If Parliaments should go on legislating in the manner that it was proposed now to legislate with regard to Ireland, he feared that that wish which at present generally prevailed in that country for a Repeal of the Union would be merged in a sentiment of deep and deadly hatred towards England, which would be looked upon as an overbearing tyrant and oppressive taskmaster, and that at no distant day the melancholy result would be witnessed in the total dissolution of the empire.
Report of the Committee of Supply agreed to.

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a third time:—Regulation of Lunatics.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of CAWDOR, from Haverford West, against Slavery; and from Tenby, against the Corporation System.—By a NOBLE LORD, from Wisbeach, Isle of Ely, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath By the Duke of RICHMOND, from St. Peter's, Derby, to the same effect.

STATE OF IRELAND (RETURNS).
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he was about to move for some returns, but if the noble Lord opposite had any objection to their being produced, he would not press his Motion. A return had been laid on their Lordships' Table that morning, made by the Chief Constable of Ireland, of all outrages committed within their bailiwicks during the months of March, April, May, and June, 1832. He wished to move that a similar return be laid before their Lordships, made up to the latest period.
Earl Greysaid, that he could see no objection to the return being made, but, under the present system of intimidation which he had described a few nights ago, many persons who had suffered from those outrages preferred to suffer in silence, instead of making it known, on account of the risk they would have run. He certainly should object to those returns if he were to understand that the noble Baron considered the production of them necessary before their Lordships could proceed with the Bill which was discussed on Friday. He hoped, however, that the noble Lord had no intention to delay that Bill by the present Motion.
Lord Ellenboroughhad no intention whatever of impeding the progress of the Bill introduced by the noble Earl. The returns which he moved for were all the evidence upon which their Lordships could agree to such a Bill as that was; therefore he regretted that his Majesty's Ministers had not thought it their duty to lay the Bill on the Table on the first day of the Session, or that they had not, at all events, laid the evidence upon which they had introduced such a measure before their Lordships at that early period. A measure of that importance ought not to be passed without the fullest consideration. If there was no objection to his Motion, he would then move it.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he had not the slightest objection to the production of the information required by the noble Baron. The noble Baron would see, however, that in the present state of Ireland it would require some consideration as to giving the names of those individuals upon whom outrages had been committed. It would be necessary not only to omit names, but localities, in order that persons might not be pointed out for further vengeance. At the same time, he must say, that the return would not answer the object of the noble Baron.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, there would be no difficulty in the case, for he did not wish for names; all that he called for was a statement of facts. The noble Lord could not, he thought, have made himself acquainted with the returns already on the Table, or he would have known that they contained much useful information without the names of any of the parties.
The Marquess of Westmeathsaid, that of his own knowledge he could bear testimony to the statement of the noble Earl (Grey), that at present such a return as was

835
called for could not with safety be made; and it must be very inaccurate.
Earl Greyhad thought that the notoriety of the facts which he had detailed the other night would have induced any noble Lord to concede the measure which he had introduced. He had really thought, that when evils had arrived at such a pitch, so that no longer a hope could be entertained that the powers of the law could be enforced—he did not imagine that any person, least of all those who had been most anxious for such measures, would have stated any objections to them. He hoped that the measure would not be delayed, and he trusted that if the noble Lord's object was to delay the Bill, nobody would concur with him; nor would they, he (Earl Grey) hoped, consider it necessary to have the information to justify the Bill. Under the circumstances which he had the other evening detailed, his Majesty's Ministers felt it necessary to introduce a measure which they believed would be most effectual, and he trusted that it would be of the shortest possible duration. He had imagined, from the general assurance given a few nights ago, that the principle of the Bill was acceded to, and he trusted that the noble Lord would not object to the Bill passing before the returns could be produced.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he had already stated, that he had no intention to retard the progress of the Bill upon the Table; but he did much regret, that the noble Earl had not laid all the information which he possessed before the House at the first meeting of Parliament, and which had induced Ministers to bring in the Bill. The noble Earl had misunderstood him if the noble Earl imagined that the observations he had made applied to the noble Earl. They applied to the noble Viscount (Viscount Melbourne). He (Lord Ellenborough) had asserted that the noble Viscount could not have read the papers on the Table if he thought the production of the further report on that principle could injure any one. He was still of opinion that the information sought for by those returns ought to be produced. He did full justice to the noble Earl for the feelings which must have actuated him in proposing such a measure. He had no doubt, that the noble Earl must have suffered acute pain in producing that measure he must have forgotten all the feelings of his former life if he did not suffer pain in producing such a measure of severity. Those very feelings of patriotism by
836
which the noble Earl was actuated had induced him to come forward to their Lordships with the Bill, notwithstanding the pain which it gave him—a Bill similar in principle to one which the noble Earl had formerly opposed, because the noble Earl now thought the passing of the measure was essential to the peace and security of Ireland. He hoped, therefore, that it would not be said, that he had not done full justice to the noble Earl for the principles which actuated him in bringing forward the Bill. In conclusion he would beg leave to move for Copies of the monthly Returns of the chief constables of police in Ireland, of outrages committed in their respective baronies, since the month of June, 1832, in continuation of the Returns ordered to be printed on the 16th of July last.
Motion agreed to.

EXPENSE OF PRINTING.
Lord Teynhammoved that the Report which had been brought up from the Commons together with the evidence, relative to the employment of children in factories should be printed. He would also give notice, that on the 1st of next month he would introduce a Bill, the object of which would be, to have inspectors and guardians appointed of the children employed in factories, justice calling aloud upon the House for some measure to prevent a continuation of the present demoralizing and injurious effect of the system.
Lord Ellenboroughdid not rise to oppose the printing of the Report moved by the noble Lord, but he rose for the purpose of calling their Lordships' attention to the subject of printing reports and evidence generally. He was exceedingly anxious to have the evidence of the Select Committee of the other House of Parliament on a most important subject—the charter of the East-India Company—laid upon the Table and printed, but he was deterred from doing so on account of the vast expense of printing it. When he mentioned that the evidence occupied no fewer than thirteen folio volumes their Lordships need not be told that the expense of printing must be enormous. This had induced him not to move for the information. He begged to suggest to noble Lords the propriety of considering the expense thus incurred; and he thought it would be well to see whether by some arrangement the double expense of printing reports might not be avoided. He thought that some plan might be

837
devised that the information thus possessed might be communicated to each House as required, and the double expense of printing done away with.
Earl Greyagreed with the noble Baron who had just spoken, that the expenses of printing such a report as that mentioned by him would be enormous. With respect to the suggestion made by the noble Baron as to each House furnishing reports to the other, he begged to state, that the subject had been under the consideration of a noble friend in the other House of Parliament, and that Ministers would be very glad if a plan could be devised to save the expenses incurred by printing double reports.
Motion agreed to.
Earl Greymoved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the

SUPPRESSION OF DISTURBANCES (IRELAND.)
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, he felt it was impossible for him to allow this Bill to pass without making a few observations—though it was far from his intention to throw any impediment in its way. Indeed, after the melancholy, though not too highly-coloured picture laid before their Lordships by the noble Earl a few evenings back, he felt himself bound to give his support to a measure which had for its object the relief of his native country from that state of degradation to which it was reduced, and which rendered it a disgrace to civilized nations—a situation which would appear horrid even to the eyes of the brute savages of the Sandwich or the Friendly Islands. He and those on his side of the House had frequently urged this dreadful state of the country upon the consideration of Ministers; he and those on that side of the House had repeatedly urged them to take some measures for restoring tranquillity—not as the noble Lord had done, by introducing strong measures, but by vindicating the law—by affording protection to the well-disposed portion of the community—and by declaring their determination to support them against every attempt at outrage. He had called on his Majesty's Government to afford such protection during the last Session, but in vain. It was a subject, therefore, not certainly of much gratification, but of extreme surprise, to hear the new tone which his Majesty's Ministers now assumed—to see the new system which was about to be pursued—the new light which had so suddenly broken in upon them. During the past
838
year—indeed during the last Session of Parliament—crimes occurred of equal atrocity, though, perhaps they were not so frequent as those detailed by the noble Earl—for it was the nature of crime, when unchecked, to advance with rapid strides. Crime, however, was equally atrocious—the state of the country was repeatedly pressed on the Ministers—they refused to take any steps. The Magistrates in Ireland were left paralyzed and exposed to every possible risk from those against whom they had to contend—deserted and unprotected by the Government. This, too, at a time when it was alleged that they had power sufficient—the first legal authority in that House declaring it to be his advised opinion, that the Government already possessed power as great, or greater than that which they now sought at the hands of Parliament—no less a power, namely, than that of suspending, by the authority, of the Lord Lieutenant himself, the Habeas Corpus Act. The authority of the law, however, was not vindicated—and not only were the perpetrators of these crimes not punished, but they were decked out in silk trappings, favoured with patents of precedency, and elevated to high rank and place. But it was then deemed necessary by the Government to conciliate the breakers of the law in Ireland, for the sake of passing a measure which they were ready enough to support, inasmuch as it would tend to consolidate their power, and weaken that of the Government. But as soon as that measure was passed through the Legislature, the aid of the Irish Agitators was no longer necessary—the Ministry became independent of and cashiered their allies, and, having served its turn, down went the scaffolding of priests and demagogues, by means of which the building had originally been erected. He believed, however, that the Ministers intended well on the present occasion. The present Government, indeed, possessed very little power in Ireland; and it was very natural, therefore, that they should seek to strengthen their influence in that country. He would ask that House merely to refer to the Irish elections. In almost every case, the contests took place between the extreme Radicals and the Conservatives. The Whigs were completely scouted from the field of contest. It was necessary, there fore, for the Government to consult one of these contending parties, and strengthen itself by an alliance with their interests. No better mode could have been adopted to

839
gain the support of the Conservative party than by the introduction of measures tending to tranquillize Ireland. His Majesty's Ministers well knew that they who had ever opposed them would readily give them their support to such measures. They knew that no party feeling was entertained on that side of the House. As the Ministers had arranged their plans, however, it appeared that they hoped to conciliate one party by the introduction of one set of measures, into that House, and the other party by the adoption of another set into the other House. Of the working of such a system as this it was easy to predict the consequences. What must their Lordships think when they saw the first Minister of the Crown coming into that House with such a measure as that introduced by the noble Earl—a measure calculated to tranquillize Ireland, and relieve that country from its distresses—whilst the leading Minister in the other House was introducing measures and broaching doctrines which it was impossible to contemplate without the most serious alarm? A measure, however, founded on such doctrines had not yet reached the Upper House, and it was to be hoped it never would. He could not contemplate without horror the spirit, the animus which could dictate to the Government to lay its sacrilegious hands on the venerable pile of the Church of England. It was impossible to think of such a measure without believing that it was intended to destroy that branch of the Church of England, which extended itself into Ireland for the purpose of creating in its place some flimsy fanciful structure, calculated only to gratify the eyes of the agitators and demagogues of the present day. No doubt their Lordships would be told, as they had already been, that it was necessary to introduce some measure of conciliation, in company with their measure of coercion; but no sooner would Ministers carry into effect some other measure of conciliation, than the agitators would find some new class of property of which they would demand the sacrifice, and some new set of men to immolate. Nothing could be more dangerous than proceedings of this description. They operated as a premium on dissatisfaction and turbulence—a premium, too, for those who required nothing to stimulate them in their course of agitation. He thought the system a bad one. They ought rather to uphold the authority of the law, in the first instance, and then let conciliation follow in such a manner as that
840
it might be received as the voluntary act of a beneficent Legislature, rather than as a forced concession, unwillingly wrung from them. He thought the principal cause of the measures which the Government was bringing forward was the agitation of the proposition for a Repeal of the Union. Much more importance was, in his opinion, attached to that subject than it really deserved. If it was apprehended that that question had taken such deep root amongst the Irish people, and if it could be proved that a large number of the Irish population were looking forward with eagerness to a measure which should separate the two countries, to the destruction of both, then he thought that Government was bound to take much more rigorous measures to put it down, and the agitation of that question should be deemed the greatest offence which the eye of the law recognized; but he did not believe that such an impression was general in Ireland. At first view, indeed, when he observed that nearly forty Members pledged to the Repeal of the Union were returned to the House of Commons, it did appear as if a large portion of the constituency had adopted that question; but it should be remembered, that more than half of those who voted were not of the description of people to whom the representation naturally belonged. The Repeal of the Union was, in fact, but the watchword of a faction—the Repeal of the Act of Settlement, or any other cry, would serve the purpose as well. The wonder was, that such a large portion of the constituency had been found to support Gentlemen opposed to that measure, in spite of the threats held out to them. In his opinion, there was never a question which had so little to recommend itself to Parliament. It was impossible not to consider into whose hands the powers of this Bill were to be placed. It was a curious fact, that there was but one point upon which all parties in Ireland were agreed. It was, in condemning the conduct of the Lord Lieutenant. He entertained the highest opinion of the noble Marquess at the head of the Irish Government, and he thought the noble Marquess had been unjustly treated. He believed there existed not one individual more disposed to further the tranquillity of Ireland than the noble Marquess—he believed that the errors of that Government were not to be attributed to him. One of the great evils arose from the noble Marquess not having sufficient authority. He (the Earl of Wicklow)

841
would contend that it was a great misfortune for the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to have a Secretary who was a Cabinet Minister. He was inclined to think that a person going there clothed with such authority was apt to assume a spirit of dictation, inconsistent with the duty of a Secretary. He did not blame the right hon. Gentleman who now held that office it was an ambition worthy of him but when that right hon. Gentleman first went as Irish Secretary to that country, he was not a Cabinet Minister, and when he was appointed a Cabinet Minister, nobody thought he would ever have returned to that country as Secretary. He had no intention of blaming the right hon. Gentleman but the fact of his being a Cabinet Minister had caused serious evils to the country. Indeed, from the time of his accession to the Cabinet, he had taken care to spend very little time in Ireland. If he was promoted to some higher situation, and a person with less talent and more experience were appointed Secretary, then the noble Marquess would exercise those powers which properly belonged to his office with credit to himself. He placed much confidence in his manliness, humanity, and prudence. He would behave with vigour when necessary, and forbear to exercise the great powers confided to him, unless when they were absolutely required. He would give no opposition to the measure.
Viscount Melbournerejoiced that it was the intention of the noble Earl, who had just sat down, to offer no opposition to the Bill upon the Table, inasmuch as he was thereby relieved from the necessity of arguing the question at length with the noble Earl. But some remarks of so much asperity and bitterness—conceived, indeed, in a spirit quite unsuited to the occasion—had fallen from the noble Earl, that it was quite impossible for him to permit the Bill to pass without making a few observations in reply. The noble Lord had asserted, that there was a culpable neglect on the part of the Government—that they showed a reluctance to use the ordinary powers of law to repress disturbance—and that those powers, exerted in due time, and with proper energy, would have effected the pacification of the country. This charge he pronounced utterly without foundation. Without intending any offence, he would still boldly deny, that on the part of either the English or Irish Government, had there been any want of energy or firmness.
842
It was true, he was aware, and he admitted the fact, that the present application for additional powers had been so long delayed, as to render harsher measures necessary than might have been originally employed. But, admitting this, he begged leave to state the cause of the delay. It was because Government hoped that, considering the time and circumstances of the country, the powers of the Common Law, wielded with the energy which he contended had been displayed in its application, would have repressed disturbance. And he would maintain, that it was better, situated as affairs were then, to bear with even certain evils, than prematurely exert those powers to which they had even now recourse with the strongest regret and reluctance. For a considerable period even after the prorogation of Parliament, there did appear a prospect of preserving order without appealing to Parliament. A sanguine hope had been entertained, that a prospect existed of repressing outrage and restoring general tranquillity by the ordinary powers of law. For a time this flattering prospect continued; but at length it became totally clouded, and gave place to a scene of disturbance, disorder, and murder, that imperiously demanded the powers to which their Lordships' sanction was now required. But the noble Lord had charged the Government with looking for the support of the persons who instigated those crimes, and supporting those individuals in return. This charge he met by a flat denial. In language as respectful to the noble Lord and the House as he could employ, he asserted that the fact was not so. The Government never was influenced by any such sinister motive. But his Majesty's Ministers, had introduced measures of conciliation, remedies of old acknowledged grievances. He admitted that they had done so, and in his opinion they behaved with wise, sound, humane, policy. The noble Lord, indeed, thought that the disturbances should have been repressed in the first place, and that the remedy of grievances should follow. But their Lordships would probably feel that the very circumstances which now called for vigorous measures had in part proceeded from such policy. Similar language and conduct was used to meet the measures proposed by that great, prudent, and eloquent statesman, Mr. Grattan, in 1786 and 1787 on the very subject of those tithes which created so much disunion at present. It was to the principle which then prevailed, of putting down disturbances by coercive measures alone, that the evils,

843
the disorder, and disturbances of the country were to be attributed. He had therefore no hesitation in admitting, that the necessary measures of coercion were to be accompanied by others of concession and salutary improvement. He should be glad to find the noble Lord's view of the state of the "Repeal" question well founded; that it had made little progress in the feelings, and no impression on the understanding of the people of this country he was satisfied, but he was not convinced that the impression on the mind of Ireland was feeble and transitory. When certain proceedings of the public called the attention of the Government to that question, it was the duty of the Government to declare at once their opinion of such a measure, and call upon the House to maintain the Union strictly and entirely. The noble Lord, though he had been willing in some respects, to do justice to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, had cast some censure on him. He (Viscount Melbourne) was certain that the general feeling of the House was one of confidence in the noble Marquess, and joy that there was at the head of the Irish Government an individual so well qualified to exercise the great powers that would be placed in his hands. But if any errors had been committed, they certainly did not arise from the cause assigned by the noble Lord. The whole of that statement was entirely without foundation. Nothing of the sort stated had occurred.
The Earl of Longfordwas of opinion, in opposition to the noble Peer who had just addressed the House, that the Marquess of Anglesey deserved censure, and that it was the duty of their Lordships to express their opinions. For several years that noble Marquess had misgoverned Ireland, and by his conduct and exhortation increased agitation in it. He knew, to be sure, that the noble Marquess meant only constitutional and legal agitation; but the noble Marquess's advice ought nevertheless to have incapacitated him for any share in the government of Ireland. Although he had seen agitation pursued every day, and spreading through the country, he had so much forgotten justice and prudence, as to publish a letter, which filled the Protestants with consternation, and redoubled the efforts of the agitators. He (Lord Longford) therefore thought him an improper man to govern Ireland. In private life he believed he was a good man, and he was ready to acknowledge his immense military talents but he was not a person to be intrusted
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with the reins of power. The Protestants of Ireland were in a state of constant anxiety. They had been violently convulsed by the conduct pursued some time since by the noble Marquess. They were perfectly aware that the ordinary powers of the law were not sufficient to quell outrage, and if Lord Anglesey, after spending the two last years in Ireland, was of a different opinion, he was unfit for the situation he held. These remarks he had not uttered with any tinge of personal asperity; but when his country was at stake, it became necessary to speak with truth and plainness.
The Earl of Rodenagreed in what had fallen from the noble Viscount. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships, that on the first day of the Session, after the noble Earl on the opposite side of the House had stated what were the intentions of Government with respect to Ireland, that he had taken the opportunity of saying that, if the measures which the noble Earl had stated were best calculated to effect the object which he had in view were brought forward, they should have his support. He had carefully examined the Bill which the noble Lord had now moved should be read a second time. He found in it some things which required alteration, but, upon the whole, he could not help bearing his testimony, that the noble Earl had redeemed his pledge upon the subject and he thought the noble Earl entitled to the praise of every good subject, for coming forward as he had, with great pain to himself, and submitting such measures to the consideration of Parliament. Their Lordships would give him leave to say, as an individual connected with Ireland, that any thing short of this measure would have been altogether ineffectual. Therefore it was, that he thought every credit was due to the noble Earl, and he should be the first person in the House to bear his humble testimony to the noble Earl's conduct. He must, however, say, that he was sorry that what had taken place in the House during the last Session of Parliament, and which many of their Lordships might bear in mind—he alluded to a motion of his own—had not been more considered and more inquired into than it was. He had taken upon himself to say, at the time he submitted that measure to their Lordships notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble Viscount as to the situation of Ireland at that time, and as to the common law of the laud being able to meet the difficulties

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then existing—he bad taken the liberty of presenting the opinions of men well known and much respected, stating that it was impossible to meet the difficulties, or give security and peace to the lives and property of his Majesty's subjects. But notwithstanding these repeated declarations, his Majesty's Ministers seemed unwilling to inquire into them, and he was now glad to see that they took shame to themselves for not having, at an early period, introduced measures which would have prevented serious evils, and preserved many valuable lives, which had since then been sacrificed—the victims of assassination. He knew himself one who, at that period, was in being, and had since fallen a victim to the assassin, whilst merely following his own duty as a clergyman of the Established Church. He, therefore, felt strong upon this point, and he must say, that it was little consolation to those who had these things to lament, that the Government took shame to themselves that they had not, at an early period, taken the state of Ireland into serious consideration. If they did not, he lamented it; he was sure they ought, when it was considered what were the offences which had been produced by their apathy and inattention. The noble Viscount had taken credit to himself for a vigorous exertion of the law at that period. For himself, he (Earl Roden) could never hear any individual talk of a vigorous exertion of the law, without remembering the case of Captain Graham, which made the Magistrates of Ireland feel that it was utterly impossible for them to act as they ought and would have done. That case was a blot upon the character of the Government of Ireland, which they never would be able to wipe out. It was the greatest act of injustice, and the greatest lot that could possibly stain their characters. As to the Bill now before their Lordships, he trusted that it would be carried by Ministers—he sincerely trusted that they would not in this instance give way to clamour; he trusted that when the Bill. came into another place it would not be mutilated, and have those points which were strongest cut off, and rendered altogether nugatory. He trusted that the Government would show that they were decided, and that they would not rest till they had restored to a loyal people peace, tranquillity, and security for property. The noble Earl in his impressive speech had Stated that it was a source of gratification [Earl Grey—I did not say gratification.]
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He understood the noble Earl to express that sentiment at reflecting that these evils were not confined to one party, but were equally attributable to both parties. If the noble Earl meant that the Protestant peasantry of Ireland, or any individual of the Protestant religion in Ireland, had been engaged in these acts of insubordination, he would take the liberty of stating that there had not been one.
Earl Grey—I said that both parties were equally the objects of attack.
The Earl of Rodenwould assert that no Protestant Dissenter in Ireland favoured these deplorable proceedings. He believed that some of the Roman Catholic farmers and some of the Roman Catholic people, who were favourable to the state of things as they were, and who were opposed to the Repeal of the Union, had fallen under the rod of persecution. But looking to the whole system, it appeared to him to be a systematic attack upon the property of Protestant gentlemen—a guerilla warfare against the property of the Church—an attempt to overturn the Protestant religion. Yes, he would say, that it was a conspiracy—a Jesuitical and subtile conspiracy—against the Protestant religion. The main object of those individuals who were engaged in this insubordination—high and low—he excepted none of them—was to extirpate Protestantism. He should be guilty of a dereliction of duty if he was not to declare that to that conspiracy many well-meaning individuals had fallen victims. Day after day the conspiracy was unfolding itself in those acts to which the noble Earl had referred. Reference had been made to a measure which he could not look to without considering it as being the door through which all the present miseries of Ireland had entered. He alluded to the Catholic Relief Bill, as it was called, of 1829. The noble Earl, in bringing forward the present measure, had said, that he was disappointed by the fruits which the Bill of 1829 had produced. He believed that the noble Earl was disappointed as well as his friend, the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington), who had made a similar declaration. Such a declaration afforded, however, but poor consolation to those who prognosticated the evils that the measure would produce. He had conscientiously opposed that measure on political as well as on religious grounds, because he felt that from it would flow all the evils now complained of. That being the case, the question was, whether they were not to unite with the Government

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however different on some points their opinions might be, for the purpose of removing those evils. It was because that was the object of the noble Earl's Bill that it had his sincere and anxious support. One word as to the power to be given to the Lord Lieutenant of the country. He had always had the greatest private regard for the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; he had known him long, though he had differed from him politically. "I think" said the noble Earl, "his politics extremely prejudicial to the best interests of the country, but I trust that, in the discharge of the duties connected with this Bill, he will show, what I am sure is the object of his heart, a desire to uphold the laws of the land to give peace and protection, and put down insubordination, wherever it may be. As a resident landlord of Ireland, I shall offer my support to the noble Marquess in the district with which I am connected." He would not then refer to another measure, the Church Reform Bill, which had been introduced elsewhere. He should, when it came into that House, have an opportunity of discussing its provisions. At present he should only say, that he could not contemplate it otherwise than a measure having for its object the spoliation of the Church of Ireland; and that point once effected, the same principle would be speedily extended to the Church of England. The ruin of the Church establishment in both countries would, he was convinced, be the result of that measure.
The Marquess of Clanricardesaid, it was erroneous and unjust to argue against emancipation, from the disappointment felt by the noble Duke opposite, or other individuals who had changed their opinions. Some hopes which he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had formed were disappointed, but he could yet declare, that in the main and great features of its advantages which had been stated to the Legislature, it had not failed. In fact, the great consideration was not so much the utility of the measure, as the evils of refusing it. If the full advantage it promised had not been reaped, that arose from the length of time the measure had been delayed, all the suggestions of wisdom and prudence having been too long rejected. As to the efficiency of the existing laws to crush disturbance, he could declare, that about fifteen months ago, the county with which he was connected was in a state of extreme disturbance, but, by a vigorous use of the common law, it was restored to as great a state of tranquillity as any part
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of the country. It was singular that the sole ground for impeaching the fitness of Lord Anglesey to command Ireland should be his having written, on a particular occasion, a letter, in which objections were taken to one sentence. But if one letter were to be a ground for declaring incapacity it would apply not to the noble Marquess, or persons on that side of the House alone. The noble Duke (Wellington) had been the author of a letter, which he afterwards declared might as well not have been written. If this was the case with so eminent an individual, it was not quite fair to bear hard on the noble Marquess. As to the idea of excluding Lord Anglesey from his Majesty's service on account of that letter, never was any thing more ridiculous. There was no one who could be employed in Ireland with more benefit to the State; no one in whose courage, talent, and humanity more confidence could be reposed. As to the distinction drawn that night between Catholics and Protestants, he hoped to God that those names would never again be heard in Parliament, and that all exertions would be devoted to the restoration of general peace. The Bill would restrain, he believed, even those to whom it did not immediately apply. The bigots of all parties would be restrained and prevented from sowing dissension and strife, stirring up envy, hatred, malice, and all uncharitable-ness. The Bill went to improve the law of the land, and on that ground he gave it his cordial support. If he believed that it was intended to serve any party or factious purpose, he would meet it with his determined opposition.
The Earl of Longfordexplained. He believed that the letter alluded to as written by a noble Marquess (Anglesey) was written when that noble Marquess was in office. The particular word mentioned was not a hasty word, but a word deliberately chosen and repeated. The noble Marquess (Clanricarde) had not only defended the noble Marquess (Anglesey), but he had attacked a large body of men. The noble Marquess had attacked the Protestants of Ireland, and particularly the Orangemen; but he could tell the noble Marquess that but for the Orangemen in 1798 his property would not have been saved. [The noble Earl was reminded by Earl Grey that this was not explanation, and he proceeded no further.]
The Duke of Wellingtonwished to call their Lordships' attention to the true circumstances of the case. His Majesty's Government had brought in this Bill, and

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if his Majesty's Government could carry it through, it would be a good measure. It appeared to him, therefore, wise in their Lordships not to look back into past transactions, and not to inquire into the influence of the character and conduct of individuals in bringing about the state of things which at present existed. That state of things was such that the remedy of this measure was necessary. If it were not necessary it ought not to pass. He begged to remind his noble friend (the Earl of Longford) that if the recall of the Lord Lieutenant, or the recall of any other officer, would render the measure unnecessary, it ought not to be adopted. The truth, however, was, that the measure was most necessary. It would put arms into the hands of those who supported the Government, and put down those who opposed it. They ought not, therefore, he repeated, to recur to what the Lord Lieutenant had done or said; they ought not to look back, but only to look at the present state of things, and see what existed. They ought not to look back with a view of casting reflections either on one side or the other. On that ground he supported the Government. He believed the measure to be essentially necessary. On that ground alone he gave it his support. He wished that the measure had been brought forward before; but he was glad that it was now brought forward. On a former occasion he had been disposed to believe that certain parts of it might be made much better than at present. There were some parts of it which he believed would be difficult of execution, while they were anomalous in relation to that profession to which he belonged. He had since examined the Bill, as was his duty to do, and had some amendments which he wished to propose, in respect to the formation of Courts-martial under the Bill. He intended at the proper time, in the Committee to propose these amendments, and if the noble Earl would in the mean time consider them The noble Duke handed some papers across to Earl Grey, he should be much obliged. His object was to put these Courts-martial on the foundation of its being the duty of the officers to form these Courts-martial. No doubt it was part of his Majesty's prerogative to order Courts-martial, and by virtue of that prerogative he could empower the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to order Courts-martial to try offences in Ireland, but he wished the officers to know that such was the case, so that they should know it was a matter of duty and not of choice. He
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thought that there were some other deficiencies in the Bill. The noble Earl had not, he thought, in some other parts of the Bill, taken sufficient power to put down the evils which exist. At the proper time he would state what amendments he thought necessary, and if the Government should think proper to adopt the Amendments he meant to propose in the Committee, he had no doubt that they would improve the Bill. Again he would repeat that the measure was calculated to do good. If it were carried into execution in the same spirit in which it was passed through that House, he had no doubt that it would have the effect of insuring the protection of his Majesty's subjects.
Earl Greywould say first, with reference to the Amendment which the noble Duke thought would render the measure more effectual, that he returned his thanks to the noble Duke for the candid manner in which he endeavoured to improve the provisions of the Bill which he thought necessary. He could assure the noble Duke and the House, that he would consider the Amendments in the same spirit in which they were proposed; as it was his most anxious wish to forward a measure so important. But it was in the Committee, and not in that stage of the Bill, that he must consider and discuss the many hints which noble Lords had thrown out. He could only say, that the Bill had been most carefully considered, and particularly in reference to the formation of Courts-martial. If the suggestions of the noble Duke could render it more efficacious, he should be most ready to adopt them. He rejoiced that he had not risen before the noble Duke, who had so ably and clearly stated the proper objects for their Lordships' consideration, or he might have been tempted to say something, by the very unreasonable remarks which had been introduced. He agreed with the noble Duke at the unseasonableness of those observations and must again thank him for the handsome manner in which he had recalled the attention of the House to the grounds of passing this Bill. He agreed with the noble Duke that they ought to apply themselves only to the circumstances of the present time; and resting on those circumstances, to prove from them the necessity of passing the Bill for the good of the country. That was the sole object which ought to be kept in view, without making any reference to party feelings. He would not say more on the subject of the introduction of the Bill, which was a measure of painful necessity, and he had hoped as such, that it

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might have passed through their Lordships' House without exciting any of those party-feelings which were frequently mixed up in their discussions, but which were unsuitable to a measure calculated only to provide for the public security—to preserve the public peace—to assure the authority of the law—and to maintain the power of the Government so that it might insure the protection of the people and the liberties of the subject; if indeed, the power of the Government and the liberties of the people were not the same in effect and what destroyed the one must destroy the other. He did hope, he said, that a measure of this nature would have been discussed with entire deliberation and without that mixture of party zeal which, whenever it mingled in their discussions, was painful to witness, and injurious to their own high privileges. A measure of this kind ought to be discussed with that calmness which was due to the people whose rights were to be suspended, and due to that necessity of supporting the authority of the law which was the only condition which could justify a Bill of this description. He trusted such remarks would not again be made. He would not say one word in reply to the insinuations which had been thrown out against him self, as if all that had been done had been done for his own personal advantage, and not from a sense of public duty. He appealed to the House and the country to look at a long life spent in the public service, and let that decide whether he, and those who acted with him, were not above the reach of such imputations. He would say no more, except again to express his satisfaction at the tone and manner in which the noble Duke had recommended them to consider the subject fairly and dispassionately, to lay aside every consideration but those which the public good required, and in canvassing the provision of the Bill, to consider only the necessity which demanded such a measure. It was only by following the recommendation of the noble Duke, that the Bill could be properly discussed. He would not say more, but that in the Committee he should be happy of the assistance of the noble Duke to make the Bill effective for its purposes, so as to make its duration as short as possible, in the hope that by it public peace in Ireland and the authority of the law would be restored.
Bill read a second time.