Sitting of 12 August 1833

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, a Copy of the Regulations and Bye Laws of the College of Physicians of London and of other Papers concerning; that Establishment; the same of the College of Physicians of Edinburgh, of Glasgow, and of Dublin—On the Motion of Mr. LITTLETON, an Abstract of the Amount of the Gross and Net Incomes of Parochial Benefices in Ireland.
Bills. Read a third time:—Court of Exchequer; Uniformity of Process; Commissioners of Lunacy; Disembodied Militia—Head a second time:—Forgery of Stamps.
Petitions presented. By Sir ROBERT INGLIS, from Weymouth and Melcombe Regis, against the Notaries Public Bill—By Lord EBRINGTON, from Parkham, for rendering the use of the Imperial Measure inoperative.—By Mr. MARK PHILIPS, from the Lace Manufacturers of Derby, against the Factories Regulation Bill.—By the SOLICITOR GENERAL, from the Inhabitants of Dudley, for the Privilege of Electing their own Magistrates.—By Mr. CHARLES BULLER, from Great Wigston, for an Amended System of Poor Laws.

FACTORIES' REGULATION.
On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the House went into Committee on the Factories' Regulation Bill.
On the 6th Clause relating to the quantity of time to be allowed for persons working twelve hours a day to take their meals.
Mr. Goring Mr. Goring moved as an Amendment, that an hour and a-half for meals be deducted from the said twelve hours.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, if the Amendment were carried the hours of labour would be only ten and a half per day, and he was sure that that was not the wish of the House. Respecting a similar clause in Sir John Hobhouse's Bill, some doubts had been
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entertained, although legally speaking, there was no doubt at all; and it was his (Mr. Poulett Thomson's) intention to add after the words hour and a half, "exclusive of the twelve hours for work."
Mr. Plumtreregretted, that the question of the morals of the rising generation was not suffciently considered in this Bill. He should support the Amendment.
Mr. Edward Stanleysaid, the Bill, so far from neglecting the morals of the children, went very far to improve them. He thought the Amendment would be productive of the most injurious consequences, and he should oppose it.
Sir Alexander Hopebegged to say, for the honour of many masters in his neighbourhood, that they, had not waited for a compulsory clause, having engaged schoolmasters at their own expense to educate the children employed in the factories.
Mr. Cobbettapproved of the Amendment of the hon. member for Shoreham, and only wished that hon. Members could see the children dragged weeping through the snow to their work—the child and the mother both weeping—the child at being forced, and the mother at being obliged to force it.
Mr. George Woodbegged to say, that the Amendment did not apply to such cases as the hon. member for Oldham mentioned.
The Committee divided on the Amendment: Ayes 17; Noes 53—Majority 36.

List of the AYES.

Bewes, T.

O'Dwyer, A. C.

Brotherton, J.

O'Reilly, W.

Cayley, E.S.

Plumtre, J. P.

Cobbett, W.

Poulter, J. S.

Evans, Colonel

Sinclair, G.

Fielden, J.

Torrens, Colonel

Gaskell, J. M.

Walter, J.

Hardy, J.

TELLER.

Henniker, Lord

Goring, H. D.

Lennox, Lord W.

Clause agreed to.
On Clause 8th enacting that children under thirteen years of age shall not work more than eight hours a-day being read.
Sir Henry Willoughbysaid, the suggestion framed on the Report of the central Commissioners, with respect to double relays of children, was in the teeth of the great mass of evidence collected by those Commissioners who had gone through the country. Commissioners, masters of mills, managers, impartial witnesses, parents, and operatives, all wonderfully coincided

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in declaring; such a system ineffectual and impracticable. There were various errors and discrepancies in the Report of the central Commissioners, and perhaps there never was in the whole range of Parliamentary inquiry an enactment framed more clearly and more decidedly against the evidence to support it than that of the relays. The great objection to relays was the deficiency of supply, and the necessary fall in wages, what they gained in time being lost in diet and clothing. The clause would operate greatly to the prejudice of the children, and have a tendency to drive the factories into crowded and unhealthy places. He was anxious to ask the noble Lord (Lord Althorp), what guarantee could be given that children who worked only eight hours in factories would not work elsewhere? The evidence showed, that pin-heading was a tedious, laborious, and monotonous employ, but parents hired out their children at 15 d. to head a pound of pins. Such a course might be pursued, and after eight hours' labour in a factory a child might be let out for hire to head pins. Believing the clause to be ineffectual and impracticable, he should vote against it.
Lord Althorpalways had entertained very great doubts whether the Bill would increase the comforts of the labourers. The country had decided, that they ought to protect the children from over-work, and on that ground he had taken up the Bill, when the noble Lord opposite (Lord Ashley) abandoned it. He agreed with the hon. Baronet who had just spoken, that there was great difficulty about the relays, and that it would not be beneficial to the children; but he had always thought Parliament could not legislate on this subject without incurring the risk of producing mischief.
Sir Henry Parnelladvised the House to take some time to reconsider this subject, that the clause might not be allowed to come into operation until the subject could be brought before the House again next Session. With that view he should move, as an Amendment, to insert in the clause instead of the words "1st of January, 1834," the "1st of July, 1834."
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, it was his intention to move an Amendment, to the effect, that the operation of the clause should be postponed till six months after the passing of this Act, instead of the 1st
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of January, 1834, This would have a much bettor effect than the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet. If, however, his object were really to defeat the clause altogether, it would be much better to propose it directly. He considered the measure to be an evil forced on the Government and the House; he looked upon its operation as very doubtful indeed; but the public and the operatives themselves had declared in favour of a legislative interference on the subject of a restriction in the hours of infant labour in factories, and leaving the question open for agitation till another Session of Parliament would be productive of the greatest possible evil to the trade itself and to the public.
Colonel Torrenswould support the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet. In the manufacturing districts the impression was general, that the Ten Hours' Bill was required; and they were determined to have it. He denied, that the passing of this Bill would satisfy the operatives or the country.
Mr. George Woodwished, that instead of the clause commencing at nine years of age, it should commence at eight, by which means twenty-five per cent more labour would be obtained. He intended, after the present Amendment was disposed of, to move, as an Amendment, which was perfectly in accordance with the marginal note to the clause, that the Bill be brought into operation as regarded children of eleven years of age at one period, twelve years at another period, and thirteen years at another period.
The Committee divided on the Amendment—Ayes 18; Noes 64: Majority 46.
Mr. George Woodmoved, that the words "within the factories or mills" be left out. The object of the clause was, that the children should not take their meals upon the premises, in order that fraud might be avoided; but he did not think it was to be apprehended.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonfeared by the Amendment the law would be evaded, as it would be difficult to obtain information of what went on within side the mills; for the parties who would be likely to complain would be under the control of those against whom the complaints should be made. It would be impossible to say, whilst the children were within the mill, whether they were employed all the time or not.
The Committee divided—Ayes 42; Noes 44: Majority 2.
House resumed—Committee to sit again.

THE DUDLEY MAGISTRATES.
Mr. Littletonsaid, he had a Petition to present from Mr. Molyneux, a Magistrate for the counties of Stafford and Worcester, and also for the town of Dudley, in which he carried on the business of a banker, complaining of a statement made by the hon. and learned Solicitor General—the effect of which was, that the Magistrates of Dudley were such, as in their absence he did not like to describe, that the people did not appoint them, had no control over them, and therefore they gave little satisfaction to the people, but were in truth political partisans. The statement thus said to have been made by the hon. and learned Gentleman had been posted up in the town, and had, of course, excited considerable attention. There were four gentlemen who filled the office of Magistrates in the town of Dudley, and he (Mr. Littleton) begged leave to state, that having long had the pleasure of knowing each of these gentlemen who acted for that part of the county of Stafford, he could positively declare, that there could not be found men of greater honour and respectability in every way. As to the charge of their being political partisans, and, as the statement intimated, partisans of a kind not accordant with the feelings of the people of Dudley, the hon. and learned Gentleman must be in error in some degree; for he (Mr. Littleton) could only say, that he thought them the reverse, for they gave him their best support during the late election. The petition prayed for an investigation into the subject.
The Solicitor Generalasked for the indulgence of the House while he made a few observations upon the matter of this petition, and, in making them, he should do what he could to avoid touching on a breach of privilege. He certainly should not oppose the prayer of the petition for an investigation, and the result of it, he was sure, would show, that the Magistracy of that part of the country was in an unsatisfactory state. He begged, however, at the same time, to declare, that he had made no personal imputations on any of these gentlemen. He had not charged them with misconduct, nor did he charge them now. All he had said was—and to
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that statement he still adhered—that the present state of the Magistracy in that part of the country was unsatisfactory; and that, with a view to render it otherwise, there must be a change in the local administration of the law there. To show the House that he had cast no imputations of personal misconduct on the Magistrates, he begged to be allowed to read some extracts from a letter which he had addressed to them.—'The conduct of every public functionary in this kingdom, and his fitness for his office, may be made the subject of fair criticism and comment. My own conduct, as a law officer of the Crown, has been severely blamed by individuals both in and out of Parliament, without feeling myself at all aggrieved. In my observations on the Dudley Magistrates, I did not impute any misconduct to them, although I regretted, and do regret, the state of the Magistracy in that part of the country. I believe it is notorious, that they are all zealous, active, political partisans, and all of one party. Justice may be very purely administered by them, but, according to my own observation, it is not administered to the satisfaction of the public, and serious discontents do prevail. Another ground of dissatisfaction, often stated to me is, that though very respectable in their private characters, they are all engaged in trade, and are, therefore, disqualified to adjudicate on certain statutes, and may be considered not altogether free from prejudice upon other matters that may come before them. In the discharge of my public duty I therefore pointed out the present unsatisfactory state of the Magistracy in Dudley as a reason for granting charters to the new boroughs. I had no intention to give any personal offence, and I am sorry if I have wounded the feelings of any individual.' He could only add, to show that his opinion of the necessity of alteration in the Magistracy of Dudley was borne out, a petition which he held in his hand, signed by between 300 and 400 respectable inhabitants of that town, and containing allegations that, in every respect, bore him out in what he said on the subject. He had heard nothing that induced him to alter the opinion he had formed, and he was happy to hear, that, in the course of next Session, a Bill would be brought in, by which towns like Dudley, containing a large and industrious

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population, would be enabled to elect their own Magistrates; to be no longer, as now, under the dominion of a party; but to be able to secure to themselves a satisfactory administration of justice.
Sir Oswald Mosleybegged to bear his testimony to the good character of the Dudley Magistracy. He was Chairman of the Quarter Sessions there, and consequently had often met them in Court, and more respectable individuals he did not believe to exist.
Sir Francis Burdettdid not understand from what had passed, that there was any imputation cast on the character of these gentlemen; but it was well known, that it had been long matter of complaint, that the Magistracy of the country had strong political partialities and political feelings, so that, though they might not be suspected of partiality in the ordinary administration of justice, it was notorious that the system was not as satisfactory as it ought to be. This, at least, was clear, that the subject was one well deserving the attentive consideration of the House, especially as it related to the administration of the laws by men who were in situations and circumstances that rendered them less responsible than others were. There was a great deal in the laws of this country upon subjects connected with the present that required amendment. He had often been struck with this, and the opinion he had formed had been enforced by what he had seen in the papers this morning. A trial had taken place at Lewes, and a man of good character had there been found guilty of sheep-stealing. It seemed, that there was in that county a custom, that when two lambs were dropped by one ewe, the shepherd was to have one of them. As this event did not probably often take place, the loss to the master was not very considerable, and, at any rate, it appeared to him, that there was no harm in the custom. But notwithstanding this, a man of good character was condemned for the offence of sheep-stealing, when it appeared that he had only taken that which was permitted by custom, and the man was to be transported for life. He had taken this opportunity of mentioning this circumstance, and hoped that this really innocent and honest man would not suffer the shame of being transported.
Mr. Cobbettsaid, that if the custom was what the hon. Baronet supposed—
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namely, that of every two lambs dropped by a ewe at one time, the shepherd was to have one, he would soon have a flock of his own. The hon. Baronet was under a mistake as to the custom. The fact was, that sometimes there was a bargain made to let the shepherd have one lamb out of every three produced at one time; but this shepherd had gone further than that custom, and had violated the law. With respect to the matter of the Dudley Magistrates, he knew this, that early this Session he had presented petitions from the inhabitants of Dudley, complaining of great partiality in the conduct of the Magistrates, and alleging, that in one case there had been an absolute refusal of justice. He cordially agreed with the prayer of the petition, and hoped there would be an investigation.
Petition to lie on the Table.

NATIONAL GALLERY—BUCKINGHAM PALACE.
Mr. Humewished to put a question to the noble Lord opposite of some importance. The sum of 50,000 l. had been voted last Session towards building a National Gallery, and he wished to know whether anything had been done in the expenditure of the money? He had understood, that the estimate originally delivered was for only 32,000 l., that then it was raised to 40,000 l., and subsequently to 50,000 l.; but that at present difficulties had been found in finishing it at 76,000 l. He should be glad to know whether Ministers had come to any and what determination upon the subject.
Lord Duncannonreplied, that the hon. Member was quite correct in his information. The sum of 50,000 l. had been voted by Parliament last Session; since that time, alterations had been suggested, which had increased the estimate. Complaints had been made against the proposed line, interfering as it would with the view of St. Martin's Church, so that with the alterations the Gallery would cost more by about 4,000 l. than the largest sum mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. As such was the case, a new, more convenient, and more practicable plan had been proposed for the reception and exhibition of the national pictures; it was, that they should be placed in the Banquetting-house at Whitehall, in that part of the building now employed as a chapel for soldiers. It was a very fine room, and,

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at a comparatively small cost, would do full justice to the pictures, while recompence could be made to the architect intended to have been employed. To convert the chapel into a Gallery, with apartments for a keeper of the pictures, and to erect a new chapel for the soldiers, would not cost more than 25,000 l. or 26,000 l., and the saving to the public would on the whole be little less than 100,000 l. by letting the proposed site for buildings which would in no respect interfere with the front of St. Martin's Church.
Mr. Humewas anxious to obtain further information regarding another building. He had observed a great deal of scaffolding about Buckingham Palace; had any increased expense been incurred there, or was it intended to complete the whole on the scale and plan already submitted to the House?
Lord Duncannoncould answer the hon. Member exactly on that subject. He was aware, no doubt, that 75,000 l. had been voted to complete the building under the recommendation of a Committee. It had been stated on that occasion, that as soon as the building was finished, it would be necessary to come to Parliament for a sum for fittings, fixtures, and decorations, and a very large amount had been named for the furniture and fixtures. He had the satisfaction to be able to state, that notwithstanding some changes made in the finishing of the building, it would be completed within the 75,000 l. voted. The hon. Member had seen a good deal of scaffolding on the side of Pimlico—it arose from Government having failed in purchasing at any price which could be justified, that part of Pimlico which was required. It had, therefore, been necessary to make offices on that side of the palace; they were of stone, in order that they might have a handsome appearance, and they had been carried further in order to give the public the accommodation of a wider turning than before existed. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman meant to allude also to a scaffold in front of the palace; that was connected with what was called the marble arch, and he was happy to say, that it had been paid for before the repairs of the palace were entered upon. Parliament would have to provide in some way for fixtures, furniture, and decorations, and he (Lord Duncannon) thought, that he should be warranted in asking a grant for the purpose even in the present
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Session; if not, between this date and the next meeting of the House, the works must be suspended that would otherwise be entirely finished. It had been proposed, that the sum required for furniture, fittings, fixtures, and decorations should be taken out of the land revenues of the Crown, and for that purpose a Bill would be necessary. If it would be any satisfaction to the House to hear his opinion as to the amount, he had taken some trouble to be able to state, that 50,000 l. would probably be sufficient. It was the express and gracious wish of his Majesty, that no more gilding and decoration should be introduced than was necessary, and he was also anxious that the furniture should not be of the expensive and extravagant description originally contemplated.
Sir Robert Inglisreminded the House, that the intended gallery was for sculptures as well as for paintings. Another point was whether at Whitehall a good light could be obtained for the pictures. He was quite aware, that the public feeling could not in any degree be outraged by converting the chapel into a gallery, as it had never been consecrated. This fact, however, was not universally known. He expressed his regret, that when the new room for the King's Library was built, the notion of a National Gallery had not been entertained.
Lord Duncannonremarked, that a gallery for pictures only, and not for statues, was originally contemplated. As to the second point of the hon. Baronet, he could state, that the chapel in Whitehall had been examined by competent persons, who had assured him that it was peculiarly adapted for the reception of the national pictures, the light would be extremely good, by placing them upon screens between the windows. It was undoubtedly true, that the building had never been consecrated; and when the project was mentioned to his Majesty, he was pleased to express his entire approbation of it. As to the extent to which Ministers were pledged, he must say, that he thought they were pledged to the architect to the extent of the grant already made for this object by Parliament. That individual had been directed to prepare a plan upon the scale of 50,000 l., and tenders had been received for the contract. After the grant of 50,000 l. had been made, two or three persons of science were

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appointed to look over the plan, and some alterations had been suggested by them, one of which was the change of the line of the building, and another increasing its elevation. Of course these alterations would increase the expense, and it was supposed, that if 62,000 l. in the whole could be procured from Parliament, tenders and contracts might be made, and the work be commenced. Afterwards, when it was found that not less than 75,000 l. would be sufficient, the work was at once stopped.
Mr. Warburtonwished to impress upon Government, that whatever site was selected, it ought to be capable of extension; and he ventured to doubt whether the gallery at Whitehall would be capable of extension. It might be suited for a temporary deposit of the pictures, but not for a permanent gallery. Individuals might, and no doubt would, make valuable bequests and donations to the gallery, and there ought to be room to add pictures as they were obtained. He begged the noble Lord to state what, from first to last, the marble arch at Buckingham Palace had cost the country.
Lord Duncannonsaid, that the point, whether the gallery at Whitehall could not be extended, had been considered; and it was thought that it might. As to the last question put by the hon. Gentleman, he (Lord Duncannon) doubted whether it would be any satisfaction to him to know the whole cost of the marble arch. It had certainly been very expensive, and a proposal had been made to pull it down; but it was thought, that that would be a fresh source of charge, and that the best mode would be to finish it merely as it stood at present. Originally it had been designed to make it much higher, but it was considered that in that case it would overbear the palace. He had the pleasure of assuring the hon. Member and the House, that the marble arch had been entirely paid for, though it had already cost 70,000 l.

TITHE ARREARS (IRELAND).
Mr. Littletonmoved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Arrears of Tithes (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. Wilksput it to the right hon. Gentleman whether he would proceed with a measure of this kind without further estimates as to the sums which were to be supplied. This Bill was to grant an advance of
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1,000,000 l. of the public money to the clergy of Ireland, who could not collect their tithes. Surely they ought to have some correct estimate before them, in order to justify them in voting so large a sum.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that there were two points in which this grant was to be looked at—first, one of regret, that a sum of this amount was to be screwed out of the pockets of the people—and next, of satisfaction that the people of England must now see, that if the Government would force a religious establishment upon the majority of the people of Ireland, they (the English people) would have to pay for it. We had before to pay for this establishment directly and indirectly; but the measure now before the House asked for direct payment from this country; and for his own part, in order to spare the shedding of blood, if the establishment were to be kept up at all, he preferred the direct mode of paying; but he hoped the people of England would consider well that this was the effect of continuing to force a religion upon a people which they did not like.
Mr. Littletonhoped, as the question now before the House was only for reading the Order of the Day, that hon. Members would not go into the discussion. He hoped they would allow the Order of the Day to be read, and the discussion to come on in its proper place, when he should be able to satisfy the House that, though a million was nominally to be voted, the whole of that sum would not be required.
Mr. Humehad every objection to allow the Bill to advance even so far as the reading the Order of the Day. The proposition which it involved was most monstrous; that a grant of 1,000,000 l.—for he could not view it in any other light—was to be made from the pockets of the people of England to keep up an establishment which the majority of the people of Ireland did not want, but which was even far greater than was necessary, for those for whom it was more immediately intended. If such a measure as this was now necessary, he would say that Ministers ought to be impeached for their conduct in the last Session in bringing forward a grant of a large sum to be paid in lieu of tithes. What had they done? They stated that if that sum were advanced, and if the claims of the clergy were transferred to

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the King and collected in his name, there could be no difficulty about the collection, and that the money then advanced would be easily repaid. The King was thus made a sort of general tithe-proctor, and to be enabled to use the military force of the land in the collection of those transferred arrears. He knew, and he stated at the time, that the project would not succeed; and how, he would ask, had it turned out, after this advance of 100,000 l.? The Government proceeded to the collection, and out of the sum of 104,000 l. they collected only 12,000 l., and that, too, it should not be forgotten at an expense of 28,000 l. To get even that sum they were obliged to increase the military force of Ireland to a considerable extent. He had stated at the time that if, instead of sending over five battalions, they were to send over fifty battalions of troops, the effect would be the same; the people of Ireland would not pay while under the indignant feeling that a religious establishment had been forced upon them, and he was sure that that feeling was continued up to the present hour. Yet now Ministers came with this proposition for granting a million of money instead of tithes, which they ought to know it would be impossible to collect. He would ask was it decent to force on a discussion so important as the present, when the Bill itself had been in the hands of Members only that morning? He hoped that Ministers would consent to put it off till to-morrow, in order to give time for its better consideration. He had read the Bill three times over, and he had asked the opinions of others upon it, and he protested that he did not understand it himself, nor had he met any one who did. It was his intention to move a call of the House for to-morrow, in order to get as large an attendance as possible, for he was sure it would not give satisfaction to the constituency, if a measure so important as this was passed in a House of only eighty or ninety Members out of 658. It was monstrous that such a proposition should be made at all after what had taken place last year. How was the money then voted to be repaid? He would contend that Ministers should be made to repay it if they could. It was his intention to have proposed to refer the matter to a Committee up-stairs, in order to have it considered whether there was good security for the money to be advanced. He should have no objection to consent to the Bill,
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provided the repayment of the money was to be secured on the temporalities of the Irish Church. But no such security was offered; the whole was to fall upon the people of England, and this, too, at a time when they were crying out under the pressure of taxation and praying for relief, and when they were told that the Government could not afford to remit any of those taxes of which the people complained most loudly. He understood that the proposition was to be, that from November next the tithes were to be collected from the landlords where there were only yearly tenants, and from the tenants where the land was held by lease, and that the collection was to extend to the arrears of three years. Was this fair to the landlord or the tenant, or would the people of Ireland submit to it? It was said that the people of Ireland would be quiet after this. They might indeed well be quiet if their tithes and their taxes were paid by the people of England; but if the money now advanced were to be repaid, and to be collected from the landlords and tenants of Ireland, would they consent to pay for an establishment which they did not want, and which they felt was forced upon them? The Irish landlords said "Show us what this is for, let us see an estimate of what is actually wanted for your establishment; let us have some evidence of your disposition to bring down the expense of that establishment to the wants of the country, and then we shall be content to pay a statutable cess; but until then we will not pay it." He would ask whether, after paying for a military establishment of more than 20,000 men, they were now to pay 1,000,000 l. from the pockets of the people of England to keep up that rotten establishment? Were they prepared to go on paying this sum of 1,000,000 l. from year to year? He was sure that if the present House did it, the people of England would, when the opportunity offered, mark their sense of the conduct of those who dared to dispose of the public money in such a manner. He would say, then, let the Church establishment in Ireland be reduced to its proper limits, and if there were any deficiency in the amount of tithe, or difficulty in its collection, as no doubt there would, let that deficiency be made up out of the temporalities of that overgrown establishment, and thus the matter would be set right; for he had no hesitation in saying that if the noble Lord

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(Lord Althorp) would give up the Church property, and come to the House with an estimate of the expenses which the Protestant establishment in Ireland really required, and no more, the House would have no objection to assent to it. He for one would be ready to give it his hearty concurrence; but it was too bad, that after the whole of that immense property accruing to the Church in Ireland had been swallowed up, the Government should come to the people of this country and ask for a million of money to make up the deficiency of the tithes in Ireland. The people in this country would not be satisfied with such an application of their money, and he was sure that the people of Ireland would not consent to repay the money when advanced. The attempt to collect it from them would, he was sure, be attended with more discontent, and probably disturbance. The people of a country were never discontented without a good cause, and he was convinced that in the measure then before the House such cause would soon be afforded. If the Government had acted with firmness, and not yielded to the advice of the Tories—if they had acted independently, they would not be in the difficulty in which they were now placed. If they had appropriated the revenue which would accrue from the proposed change with respect to the Irish Bishops to the purpose of making good any deficiency in the tithe, the case would be different. He repeated, that he should have no objection to the Bill, and he was sure the public would have no objection to it, provided the money thus advanced were to be secured upon the property of the Irish Church. He should like to have a lien upon that property. He thought they ought not to advance one step until such security was given. He hoped that his right hon. friend would allow twenty-four hours at least for the better consideration of the Bill.
Mr. Littletonobserved, that the hon. member for Middlesex begged delay—delay even to the moderate extent of twenty-four hours, and to that request he should not perhaps have been disposed to refuse his consent, had it not been accompanied by a speech, the character of which was anything but moderate. That speech compelled him, however reluctantly, to enter somewhat into the details of the question. He thought that on a former occasion, he had laid before the House
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details amply sufficient to satisfy every hon. Member, and to supersede altogether the necessity of again troubling the House. The hon. member for Middlesex had complained that sufficient information had not been laid before the House. Now he was at a loss to see what information could be required beyond that which was contained in the estimate, and the papers by which it was accompanied. The hon. Member had fallen into a grand error if he supposed that the money required was only for the compensation of the clergy; it was no such thing; it was for the lay impropriators. The question resolved itself into this, would the Parliament, or would they not, support property in Ireland, and yield it the necessary protection, not merely the property of the Church, but property generally? He felt it would not be necessary for him to detail minutely what had been the nature of the extensive attacks made upon property in general in Ireland, but the hon. Member had in some degree driven him to say something. Since the commencement of the present Session, there had been as many as 210 applications to the Irish Government for military assistance to aid in the collection of the tithe. The right hon. Gentleman then went into the particulars of the affray at Middleton, in the county of Cork, and into several of the cases that occurred in Kilkenny and other parts of Ireland. He had no difficulty in saying, that if the present Bill were not passed, war, in its most alarming form, must be the immediate consequence, and the most grievous sufferings to individuals of all classes must ensue. Such was the state of things at the present moment in Ireland, that, within the last three or four days, a process server was in such imminent danger of being assassinated, that' had he not been lodged in the county gaol as a place of security, no power in that country could have saved him. As to the amount which formed the principal object of the Bill, it certainly was a million, but he did not think that so much would be necessary. He entertained very little doubt that not above 600,000 l. or 700,000 l. would be required. The tithes of a single year did not exceed 670,000 l. The hon. member for Middlesex asked for security to guarantee the repayment of the million now proposed to be granted. He thought, that the Bill offered abundantly good security for that purpose, and he was

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sure the House would, in that opinion at least, agree with him, and not with the hon. Member. He would repeat, that unless they were prepared to agree to the present measure, they must be prepared for bloodshed—for civil war, with all its aggravations—during the whole time from the rising of Parliament until its re-assemblage. Supposing, then, that the Bill should prove unsuccessful with the House—an event he could not contemplate without the deepest apprehension—he must then prepare for the painful duty of using those powers which resided in the Executive for the repression of disorder. The duty would be most distressing, but it was one from which he should not shrink. He should be prepared to direct the whole force of the constabulary body, and even of the army, against the resistance which had been raised to the levy of tithes, for with them was bound up the whole property of the country—all must share the same fate.
Mr. Harveywas of opinion, that the measure before the House would act as an encouragement to resistance in all similar cases—that it would give some satisfaction to the Irish people he had no doubt, for, of course, no people could be dissatisfied when others come forward to pay their debts for them; but it was a measure every way worthy of the Government, which professed to reform the Church by perpetuating every one of its abuses. They talked of the Church Establishment in Ireland; and how had they dealt with it, and in what manner had they gone about reforming it? By fixing and perpetuating an income for its use of one million and a-half—an establishment not of the slightest advantage to more than half a million of the inhabitants. What would be the next application to Parliament? Why, when landlords found that their rents were failing, they had nothing to do but come to the House, and state, that an unconquerable combination againstrents had been formed, that nothing could at present be obtained from their tenants, and that they must request of Parliament to recognize—such would be the delicate phrase—a loan for five years to meet the emergency. But had all that come upon them as a matter of surprise? Had Government no intimation of the approaching storm? Were there no symptoms to warn them of the danger of endeavouring to oppress nine-
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tenths of a nation for the advantage of the remaining tenth? If they went on with Bills such as that, they might rest assured that they would have nothing but complaints of the non-performance of contracts—the case of tithes was nothing but the non-performance of a contract. If the clergy of Ireland were in distress, why did they not apply to those who were the same cloth? The Established Church was the United Church of England and of Ireland, and there was a large fund in this country applicable to any of the purposes of religion—he alluded to Queen Anne's bounty. It might be said, that that fund, though it amounted to 1,500,000 l., was not applicable to any but defined purposes, and could not be diverted from these. Perhaps the House would recollect that it was only two Sessions ago when 60,000 l. of that fund was taken for the improvement of the Archiepiscopal Palace on the opposite side of the river. The fund might be diverted into such channels as that, and in order that the turrets and the battlements of Lambeth might overawe that House. The sum in question was to be repaid by the Bishop. Let the Irish clergy go to the same fund, and then there would be some chance of any advance that might be made being repaid; the trustees would probably take care of that. He objected to the proposed grant of 1,000,000 l., which was to come from the pockets of an over-burthened people, in payment of the arrears of a clergy the most richly endowed, and the greatest paupers in labour in the world. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to have screwed his courage up to the point of vindicating Christianity by depopulating mankind; but if the right hon. Secretary continued long in office, he would see the tithe-payers of England imitating the non-tithe-payers of Ireland, and the latter imitating and extending their own examples by resistance to rents. When such a crisis should arrive, how would the present Government, if still in office, act? Of course it would proceed as it now did, in that manner, which of all others, was most satisfactory to debtors, by giving them the money which they refused to pay. Such a principle carried with it not only an invitation, but a reward for resistance, and struck at the root of all property. He objected to the present mode of dealing with the Irish Church, as

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being not only bad in itself, but bad as an example to England, and tending to shut out those hopes of reform in the establishment which the people of this country entertained. The revenues of the English Church did not exceed 4,000,000 l., and the number of persons in communion with it might be taken at 7,000,000 or 8,000,000. Now, if a revenue of 1,500,000 l. were not too much for the Irish Church with its congregation of half a million of people, it followed that the present income of the English Church was by no means too great, and thus all hope of Church Reform was put an end to, not only in Ireland but in England. Parliament was expected to wind up all by calling on the people of England to subscribe a million of money to pay the deficiencies of tithes in Ireland. It really appeared to him, that it would be impossible for the greatest enemy of Government, with the most malignant heart, and by an exercise of the most perverted ingenuity, to devise a plan more fatal to the expectations of the people, or the character of the Government, seeing that it was directly at variance with the principles on which they had hitherto professed to act.
Mr. Shawsaid, there were three points in the speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Harvey). He stated a principle in which he (Mr. Shaw) entirely concurred. He entered into a calculation of figures which he (Mr. Shaw) would prove to be completely erroneous; and then the hon. Member indulged in some eloquent declamation against the Irish Church, which appeared to him (Mr. Shaw) to be altogether inapplicable to the question then before the House. The principle in which he agreed with the hon. Member was, that the whole course adopted by the present Government, in respect of the clergy of the Established Church was holding out a bounty to insubordination, and affording an example of successful resistance to a legal demand which no doubt would be followed in other cases. With regard to the assertion of the hon. Member, that the property of the Irish Church amounted to one million and a half he was grossly mistaken; he had exaggerated its value more than double; and the fact was, that, instead of 1,500,000 l., the whole annual income of the Irish Church was not 700,000 l. The matter was reducible to a certainty
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from official documents before the House. The clerical tithes very little exceeded 500,000 l. The joint incomes of the Bishops were calculated at 130,000 l., and the glebe lands amounted to about 20,000 l.; so that he had left a considerable margin for the hon. Member's fancy, when he denied that the entire property was the half of what the hon. Member had stated. Then nothing could be more foreign to the present subject, than whether or not the real and permanent interests of the Established Church in Ireland were to be supported or not; for he (Mr. Shaw) fully coincided in opinion with the hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Warburton), and those other opponents of the Church, that these annual grants and temporary expedients being substituted for the long established and legal rights of the Church had a far different tendency than to its ultimate advantage; and this led him to give to the hon. member for Boston (Mr. Wilks) the answer to the question which he had asked his Majesty's Government, and which they had declined to give, but which was nevertheless the true one. The hon. Member had inquired, what was the ground of their applying to the country for 1,000,000 l.?—why they did not lay something in the nature of an estimate before the House? He would tell the hon. Member the real, general, and what must be the principal, item in their estimate—and it was this: that, in the month of June last, when the influence of the law had been in some degree restored in Ireland, and the Government had tardily entered upon the duty of vindicating its desecrated authority, the clergy, like every other class of the King's subjects, began to feel the effect, and were recovering, by legal means, their long and unjustly withheld rights; the tithe was being gradually and regularly paid; when suddenly the Government, which had the week before been proceeding with all the vigour of the offended law, relaxed every effort, and proclaimed, from one end of the country to the other, that all proceedings against lithe defaulters should cease—that they would withdraw all assistance from those who were on the point of establishing their just claims against those who had been leagued in an unlawful combination against them; and the consequence was, that in proportion to their obedience to the law were those who obeyed it made to suffer; and in exact

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proportion to their resistance to it were the most refractory rewarded. The Government, but more particularly the noble Lord (Lord Althorp), at the same time, undertaking to pay to the clergy the tithes of the present and the last two years: thus, in his (Mr. Shaw's) mind, producing a great evil, and providing a very insufficient remedy. However, such was the ground of the present measure. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Littleton) denied, that the law could have been enforced—but the very case of Midleton, to which he referred, proved the very reverse; for though those at Midleton, who were, be it observed, merely serving processes, were driven back the first day, in some manner which he certainly had never heard satisfactorily accounted for—yet, on the matter being followed up with vigour on a succeeding day, the object was accomplished, and the law maintained. As to the numerous other cases cited by the right hon. Gentleman, most of them occurred before the period he alluded to; and outrage was giving place to some return of order, when the extraordinary change was made in the conduct of the Government; but even supposing it to be as stated by the right hon. Gentleman, was not yielding to the lawless opposition he described falling into the error which he himself deprecated, and which the hon. member for Colchester so well described, of sanctioning insurrection, and encouraging violence? He was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say, at length, that supposing the Bill to be rejected, the Government must again resort to all the means they had before taken, and so suddenly relinquished, of enforcing the just demands of the clergy against whom this organized combination had been entered into, should even bloodshed and confusion be the consequence. But under what great disadvantages would they recur to it after having shown so much timidity and indecision before playing this see-saw game—one time too relaxed, and then necessarily too severe. Ireland would be sacrificed to this miserable and temporising policy. A little firmness in due season would have saved all the necessity for the undue and unconstitutional harshness which must now be used. It was owing to that system, as well as to the provision in the Bill of last year, which the Government would introduce in spite of the remonstrances
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against it—that no costs should be recoverable against a party, however vexatious in his opposition—that the Government had not recovered more of the tithes of 1831—but the show of determination with which they commenced had the effect of causing the tithes of other years to be paid to the clergy, who could recover costs against contumacious defendants. The question now was, whether the Government, having caused the mischief, as he sincerely believed from all the information he had received on the subject—and having reduced that most ill-treated body of the Irish clergy to the utmost destitution—and left them no other redress but that promised by the noble Lord, the House would refuse to give them relief. For his own part he felt no gratitude was due to the noble Lord for the proposal; on the contrary, he considered that it would inflict a lasting infamy on the interests of the establishment, and entail on the country the evil results of a successful resistance to a lawful right. If the whole sum were granted (to say nothing of the exorbitant and unjustifiable deductions) it would be no equivalent for the ill-advised interruption of its recovery by the ordinary and accustomed remedies known to the law, and the influence of which would have incidentally benefitted the whole state of society. Sooner or later the question must be decided, whether the authority of the law, or of those who systematically opposed it, was to be permanent in Ireland; but now he must give his reluctant support to the only measure of relief which the weakness of the Government had left open; and after the manner in which the noble Lord had committed himself on the subject—the noble Lord could not deny it—he would say, without hesitation, that, as a man of honour, the noble Lord must resign his office if the House rejected the Bill. He repudiated the notion of the grant being a boon to the Church; he denied that it was even an act of common justice to the clergy, who had been deceived by the Government; but the Government could not now desert them in the difficulties which the Government had occasioned, without a violation of every principle of honour and good faith.
Mr. O'Ferrallregretted to hear from the right hon. Secretary, that, in the event of

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the Bill not being carried, there must be a renewal of the scenes of last year he believed that the people of England would rather risk the loss of the whole sum than contemplate a revival of those scenes. For his own part he should support the measure, not only with a view to avoid such a crisis, but because, it having been admitted, that the Protestant Church of Ireland was imposed upon that country by England, and that its maintenance was necessary to uphold the union of the two countries, he thought it only fair that this country should pay for it. This he must state, that great danger would arise from placing the landlord in the place now occupied by the clergyman. He (Mr. O'Ferrall) had only left Ireland on Friday last. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman had then arrived there, and he (Mr. O'Ferrall) had a conversation with several landlords on the subject, who unanimously expressed an opinion as to the danger of mixing up tithe with rent. The question here was, whether 20,000,000 l. might not be lost in attempting to recover 1,000,000 l. The attempt, besides, after renewing the scenes of disorder and bloodshed that had been witnessed in Ireland, might prove to be a fruitless one.
Lord Ebringtonsaid, that he would very briefly state the reasons which induced him to support this measure. He would not support this Bill if he thought that it went to give, as some hon. Members had said, a premium to violence and insubordination in Ireland, neither would he give it his support if he imagined that it would have the effect which the hon. member for Middlesex seemed to wish for, namely, that of sweeping away the Church of Ireland altogether.
Mr. Humesaid, that what he had stated was, that he thought Parliament should in the first instance proceed to consider the question of the reduction of the Church Establishment of Ireland.
Lord Ebringtonsaid, that while he was one of those who thought that that Establishment was much greater than it ought to be, yet he must say that several measures had been brought forward this session by his Majesty's Government to reduce it, and establish it upon a better footing, and he considered the present measure as one amongst the number. He would not support this measure if he thought that it meant, as some hon. Members had said it did, that this should be considered as
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a tax imposed upon the people of England, for there lief of those persons who had resisted the payment of tithes in Ireland. He had heard what had fallen from the hon. member for Kildare with great regret, the more especially, as on the occasion when his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, originally broached the present proposition of the Government, that hon. member, if he remembered rightly, stated, on behalf of the landlords of Ireland, that they would willingly undertake the burthen which it was proposed to throw upon them for the sake of pacifying the country, and of putting an end to the conflict that existed there with regard to the collection of tithes. By this measure relief would be afforded to the clergy of Ireland. A great inducement was also held out by it to the Irish landlords and their tenants to relieve their country from the distracted state in which it was at present, owing to the collection of tithes. He trusted, that the spirit of liberality with which this was now granted by the people of England would be met with a corresponding spirit of liberality on the part of the Irish landlords and the people of Ireland, and that the people of this country would not ultimately have to complain of a want of good faith with respect to the repayment of this loan.
Mr. O'Ferrall, in explanation, begged to say, that the statement to which the noble Lord had alluded had been made in the last Session in a discussion on the measure with regard to tithes, then brought forward by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. On that occasion, when some Protestant landlords, members of that House, protested against having such a burthen thrown on them, he (Mr. O'Ferrall) said, that the Catholic landlords would not refuse to take such a burthen on themselves, if they thought that in doing so they would rescue their country from the disturbed and distracted state into which it was plunged. That was what he said then; he said the same now.
Mr. Warresaid, that feeling it to be his duty on this occasion to dissent from the proposition made by his Majesty's Government, he was anxious, in a few words, to explain the reasons which induced him to do so. From the first moment that this proposition had been made he could not avoid regarding it with a degree of suspicion, and after looking

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carefully through the Bill, he could not find any provisions in it that could prevent this loan from being converted, as no doubt it would be converted, into a gift. Now, for his part, he could not consent to put in jeopardy so large a sum as was proposed to be granted by this measure. If he thought, that there was the least chance that this Bill would produce ultimate tranquillity in Ireland, he would not oppose it; but viewing it as he did, seeing that there was no probability of its producing permanent security—seeing that the sum was one that should not be given as a grant, in order to be converted into a gift—and being certain, that if it should be now voted, the burthen would ultimately fall upon those who should not bear it, namely, the people of England, he should oppose the present measure.
Mr. Aglionbysaid, that he could not allow this Bill to pass a single stage without expressing the strongest opposition both to its principle and its details. This measure offered a premium to the violators of the law, and instead of being one that could be described as intended for the protection of property, it was a direct spoliation of, and attack upon, property. He trusted, that the House would not sanction such a measure. Parliament ought to have taken steps long ago to reduce the Church Establishment of Ireland, and, until that was done, there would be no chance of the restoration of tranquillity in that country.
Lord Althorpwas anxious to state to the House the circumstances under which this question was now being discussed. It had been said, that his Majesty's Ministers had, by different measures in the course of the present Session, endeavoured to settle the question of tithes in Ireland, and a measure, the Coercion Bill, which had been passed at the commencement of the Session, had been quoted as one of those measures. He was aware, that during the progress of that measure through the House, several of those Gentlemen who opposed it had, amongst other objections to it, repeatedly asserted, that it would be employed for the purpose of enforcing the payment of tithes in Ireland. To that assertion his Majesty's Ministers had over and over again given the most unqualified contradiction, and in order the still more completely to convince the House that the Coercion Bill was not intended for the purpose of enforcing the
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collection of tithes, he (Lord Althorp) recollected that, upon one occasion, in the course of those discussions, he stated in his place in that House, that it was the intention of Government to submit a proposition to the House that would render the future collection of tithes in Ireland unnecessary. It was too much then to assert, as some hon. Members now asserted, that the Coercion Bill had failed in enforcing the collection of tithes. It was never intended for any such purpose. If his Majesty's Ministers had thought proper to break faith with the country and with Parliament, the collection of tithes might be secured under that Bill; but if they had done so, they would have committed the grossest breach of faith towards the people of England that could have been committed. The effect of the Coercion Bill had been the suppression of outrage, and the restoration of peace and tranquillity in Ireland, as had been anticipated by Government when it was brought forward; but no sooner had that effect taken place, than they found that generally all over the country processes were set on foot for the payment of tithes, and it was plain, that advantage would be taken of the Coercive measure for the purpose of enforcing such payment. Now, the Government had pledged itself that the coercive measure should not be employed for that purpose, and he did not deny, that one of the objects of the Government in bringing forward the present measure was, that the issuing of processes for the collection of tithes in Ireland should cease. The Government had redeemed its pledge to the House and the country in bringing forward this measure, and the question was, whether proper security was not afforded for the repayment of the money which the House was called upon now to advance. He did not ask the House to assent to this proposition, except upon that condition. With regard to the details of the measure, and the means by which it was proposed to carry the objects which it had in view into effect—in the first place, it was proposed to advance a certain sum to the clergy of Ireland, who in receiving it, would become debtors to the Crown for the amount. It might then be asked, what were the means by which it was proposed to secure the repayment of this sum? It was proposed, that the money so advanced should be paid out of the tithe composition money. Thus to

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the clergy would be afforded a less onerous and difficult mode than they at present possessed of recovering their dues, while ample security was given for the money so advanced by the Government. But it might be said, that the measure he had alluded to would not succeed. It was possible that the measure for the composition, or rather, as it might be more properly termed, the measure for the permanent commutation of tithes in Ireland, might fail, and that the clergy would receive nothing under it. No Gentleman in that House, however hostile he might be to the Church Establishment, or to the system of tithes in Ireland, had ever said, that the present incumbents should not be paid their incomes. He was therefore justified in saying, that it was the unanimous opinion of the House and of Parliament that the present existing incumbents should be paid their incomes. Now that being the case, it being acknowledged by all that no matter what arrangement might be made prospectively with regard to the Church Establishment in Ireland, the living incumbents had undoubted claims to their incomes. This sum would be advanced upon the security of those incomes, and would, in fact, be advanced to the clergy of Ireland as a lien on their incomes, payable by the people of Ireland. The security was as good and as certain as could be had for the repayment of any loan. Government would not be justified in proposing this advance as a grant; it was only justified in proposing it under the provisions for repayment contained in the Bill. He was willing to acknowledge, that the Government was bound in honour to the clergy of Ireland, whom they had prevented from proceeding with the enforcement of their claims under the existing law to bring forward the present measure. They had brought it forward, and they should feel it their duty to carry it through Parliament.
Sir Robert Inglissaid, that however he might differ from the noble Lord with respect to the principles of this measure, under the circumstances of the case he felt it his duty to give it his support. The question in this instance regarded not the expediency or inexpediency of a Church Establishment in Ireland; but the question, as had been properly stated by the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies, was, whether law and property should be upheld in Ireland? The hon. member
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for Cockermouth was altogether wrong in attributing the disturbed state of Ireland to the existence of the Church Establishment in that country. With the exception of the Munster insurrection, about fifty years ago, there had not been a single disturbance or general insurrection in Ireland which had been characterised by a resistance to the payment of tithes, until a very recent period. The House should not forget, that the present measure went to secure the recovery of their property to laymen as well as to clergymen. It was not fair, therefore, to say, that this advance was made for the support of the Church Establishment of Ireland. It would be quite inconsistent with the duty of the noble Lord not to bring this measure forward, and it would be inconsistent with his (Sir Robert Inglis's) duty not to give it an unqualified support.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, that, upon principle, he felt it his duty to oppose the measure now before the House. He could not give his vote for a proposition which would prove only a temporary expedient for continuing a Church Establishment in contravention of the feelings of the vast majority of the people of Ireland.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that he had as yet never taken any part in the discussions upon this Bill, but he owed it to the House and to himself to give some explanation of the vote which it was his intention to give. He found those hon. Gentlemen who might fairly be presumed to represent the extreme opinions prevailing in Ireland differed materially concerning the measure now under the consideration of the House. The hon. and learned member for Dublin had expressed himself willing to support this vote, because it was a grant from England in aid of the distresses prevailing in Ireland. The hon. and learned member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Shaw), although he did not altogether support the vote upon these grounds, yet he had expressed the strongest doubts as to the repayment of these monies, in case, by the decision of the House, it should be granted. He must say, that however painful it might be to him to differ from those with whom he had been accustomed to act, yet, if this measure should be passed on such grounds, he should not hesitate to sacrifice his personal feelings, and give his vote and raise his voice against the proposed grant. Nothing would be more improper or more at

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variance with his own feelings, and also contrary to what was due to his constituents and his own character, than to vote away the money of the people of England for the support of a Church Establishment in Ireland, without the chance of repayment to this country, as had been thrown out in the course of the present debate. But he should ground his vote upon the present occasion upon the assurance of his noble friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and of the Government generally, that the money should not be so taken from the people of England without means being resorted to for the collection of the debt owing to the Irish Church from those from whom it was due. If he was not assured of the security of the repayment in this respect, he should most unquestionably vote against this grant. He must also remark, in reference to what had been urged in the course of the present debate, that in his judgment tithes which were not collected for the purposes of the Church should not go into the pockets of the landlords, but, on the contrary, should when so collected, be applied to the purposes of the State. He never would consent that such property should be alienated from state purposes for the benefit of the landlords in Ireland. Relying, however, as he did, that means were provided for the repayment of this grant, he should give his vote in support of it. He should do so under the full conviction, that it was merely a loan to Ireland; if he could imagine it was designed as a gift, he should be the first man in the House to oppose its being made.
Colonel Torrensobserved, that Mr. Pitt, in his speeches upon the Roman Catholic question, had opposed the maintenance of a Church Establishment in Ireland, and the same feeling had been expressed by Dr. Paley. He should give his vote for the present measure. It had been said, that it was possible to put an extinguisher upon the demand for Church Reform, but he would remind the House, that the Dissenters having attained a pro-eminent weight in this country, they had heretofore directed their attention to the great question of slave emancipation; but that question having now been put an end to, they would at once apply their attention to a full and efficient Church Reform, both in Ireland and this country. He (Colonel Torrens) relied upon the
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liberal opinions expressed by the right hon. Gentleman, the present Secretary for Ireland; and, convinced, as he was, that no Ministry would long exist which should refuse such a Church Reform, he should give his most cordial support to the present Motion for a grant, and with the full persuasion that the grant was a loan, and not a gift, and that if the Church property in Ireland should be found insufficient for this purpose, the loan should be fixed upon the whole property of Ireland. He was also fully satisfied, that the people of England would not accede on other terms to so profligate a waste of the public money.
Mr. O'Reillywas of opinion, that some gratitude was owing to the Government for bringing forward a measure well calculated to put an end to a system which had already given rise to and occasioned so much bloodshed in Ireland. He protested strongly against the supposition which had been much promulgated, that a wish prevailed to put the tithes in the pockets of the landlords. The tithe system was not new to the House or the country; history presented the same story for the last hundred years. He should not vote for the measure, on the grounds that the grant would never be recovered; on the contrary, he was satisfied, that Church property in Ireland afforded an ample and a full security. He also would, as a Roman Catholic, say, that the Roman Catholics had no wish to resist the payment of that which was legally due, or to uphold a resistance to tithes because they were paid to a Protestant clergy. He was most ready to deprecate the tithe system, established as it had been by the Roman Catholics themselves. He only hoped, that there would not be left in the tithe owner the power of keeping up the excited feeling which it was the object and design of the present measure to allay.
Sir Samuel Whalleyrose to oppose the measure. Great as were the difficulties which surrounded the Government regarding the situation of the clergy, he could not but oppose it. He was surprised, that the hon. member for Oxford had been able so soon to overcome the difficulties which he himself had raised. He thought, that the hon. Member had forgot, that this measure would be a blow, not only to Church property, but to property of every description both in England and

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Ireland. For these reasons he should think it his duty to give this measure, in all its stages, his most decided opposition.
Mr. Edward J. Stanleysaid, that he never could consent to such an appropriation of the money of the people of England, unless he felt fully satisfied that the proposed grant would be repaid. If some easy means were not secured for the ensuring the recovery of these advances, or, in other words, that the repayment of the loan should not be secured, he would himself move the introduction of a clause into the Bill, to the effect that the first deductions from the sale of church lands should be appropriated to the repayment of the present proposed loan of one million.
Mr. Dominick Browneunderstood the opinion of the Government to be, that the Church-property in Ireland should be diminished, and given to the State, for the purposes of assisting the Roman Catholics and the Protestant Dissenters of this country; and he must assure his Majesty's Government, that they would find it to be their duty, early in the next Session of Parliament, to bring forward a measure of that kind. The Government could not be aware what was the opinion of the majority of the House relative to Church-property; but he sincerely hoped, that majority would be in favour of taking away at least one half million of that property; and he further trusted, that in the next Session his Majesty's Ministers would come forward with a measure for that purpose. He could say, that unless this were done, the proposed loan would never be repaid. He would put it to the English, Irish, and Scotch Members of the House, whether it was worth while to ensure the peace of Ireland for four or five years longer, by the advance of 1,000,000 l. as proposed. If, however, that grant was not now made, the peace of that country could not be maintained.
Mr. Philip Howardfelt that, however deplorable the system of tithes in Ireland might be, it was the duty of Government to enforce it, so long as it existed, in the way least onerous and irritating to the people. The present Bill went to vindicate the rights of property, lay, as well as clerical; it would, he trusted, afford that calm and breathing time requisite to prepare the way for improved arrangements and a better system—a truce preparatory to a lasting peace. The prophe-
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cies of those who asserted that the loan would turn out to be a gift, would not, he thought, be verified, as Government had ample security for its repayment. But, be that as it might, consistently with maintaining public tranquillity, they had no other course left to pursue.
The Order of the Day read.
Mr. Littleton Mr. Littleton moved, that the Bill be read a second time.
Mr. Humeobjected to keeping up a Church Establishment, which was the cause of continued dissension in the country, and to support which establishment this grant was now sought. The admission of the right hon. Gentleman opposite was, that he would place himself at the head of the troops, in order to enforce the payment of the arrears. The admissions which had been made equally proved that all the disturbances arose from the Church Establishment; nay, even the noble Lord had admitted, that such was the feeling of resistance, that he had taken upon himself to forbid all legal process for the collection of tithes. What was this but a confession, that the people of Ireland had so great an abhorrence of tithes that not even the powers of the Act of last year, nor the unconstitutional measure of the present Session, with all the aid of military force which this country could command, could not carry the payments into effect. The right hon. Secretary for the Colonies would not deny, that when hs asked last year for the powers which he obtained, that he fully anticipated to be able to vindicate the law. The result, however, had been otherwise; and every month's experience must have taught him that all these powers against the majority of a nation availed him nothing. He (Mr. Hume) was surprised, after this experience, that the Government did not take a lesson, and at once submit to the House the question, whether, by Martial Law should be enforced an establishment which breathed peace and goodwill towards all mankind. It was time now the Church should be so modified as to meet the views and feelings of the majority of the people. The present grant was unwise, and such as no reasonable man could recommend; and feeling satisfied that it never could be repaid, he felt it due to the people of England, who were crying out for relief from taxation; and seeing also that an objection prevailed that this grant should meet the least

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delay, be should move, that the Bill be read a second time this day three months.
Mr. Cobbettadmitted, that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, could not do less than bring forward the measure now before the House, but, if the noble Lord had gone a little further, and said this Bill was the first instalment towards paying the Irish clergy their salaries, in order that tithes should no longer be collected, the noble Lord should have had his support. The noble Lord, however, did not go that length, and he felt convinced that Ireland would never be at peace, until there was an entire and complete cessation from the collection of tithes. If peace could be restored, he was sure that his constituents, and indeed the people of England, would be glad to make any sacrifice; for when millions were granted to the West Indies, in order to settle quietly the question of slavery, 1,000,000 l. would not be grudged to Ireland—a country which England ought to estimate 10,000,000 times more dearly than the colonies. It had been clear to the understanding of every man, that so soon as the Catholic Emancipation Bill passed, the Church Establishment could not be continued in Ireland; and unless he had some promise that tithes would not continue to be exacted, he should support the Amendment of the hon. member for Middlesex.
Mr. Perrinsupported the Bill. It could not be denied, that the present incumbents must be supported, and it was equally plain that, in Ireland, the tithe composition measure could not efficiently be carried into effect.
Mr. Halcombesaid, that, on this occasion, he felt it his duty to offer a few remarks to the House, and he regretted he should be now met, as on all former occasions (humble and young a Member as he was), by such cries as he now experienced, and amidst which he recognized the voice of the hon. member for North Wiltshire.
Mr. Methuenrose to order. He understood, according to the rules of the House, any hon. Member was at liberty to say "Hear, hear!" to any observations which might fall, and until he (Mr. Methuen) heard from the Speaker that such was disorderly, he should not yield in the course he should pursue.
Mr. Halcombesaid, that the voice of the hon. member for North Wiltshire
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was perfectly familiar to him on these occasions, though he had not turned his eye to the situation which the hon. Member occupied. He was sure the hon. Member had pursued his course with the same good humour as he (Mr. Halcombe) alluded to it. He felt it his duty to vote for extending relief to the clergy of Ireland, and therefore supported the Bill.
The House divided on the Amendment—Ayes 53; Noes 109: Majority 56,
Bill read a second time.

List of the AYES.

ENGLAND.

Scholefield, J.

Attwood, T.

Shawe, R. N.

Beauclerk, Major

Strutt, E.

Benett, J.

Thicknesse, R.

Bewes, T.

Thompson, Alderman

Blamire, W.

Todd, R.

Brotherton, J.

Tooke, W.

Buller, C.

Tynte, C. J.

Cayley, E.

Walter, J.

Clay, W.

Warre, J. A.

Cobbett, W.

Whalley, Sir S.

Cornish, J.

Wilks, J.

Dykes, F. L.

Williams, W. A.

Evans, Colonel

SCOTLAND.

Ewart, W.

Gordon, Captain

Fielden, J.

Parnell, Sir H.

Hall, B.

Pringle, R.

Hardy, J;

Sinclair, G.

Harland, W.

Wallace, R.

Harvey, D. W.

IRELAND.

Hawkins, J. H.

Blake, M.

Hodges, T. L.

O'Dwyer, A. C.

Kennedy, J.

Ruthven, E. S.

Methuen, P.

Ruthven, E.

Potter, R.

Talbot, J.

Rickford, W.

Vigors, N. A.

Rider, T.

TELLERS.

Robinson, G. R.

Aglionby, H. A.

Romilly, J.

Hume, J.

List of the NOES.

ENGLAND.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Althorp, Lord

Fenton, Captain

Baring, F.

Fitzroy, Lord C.

Barnard, E. G.

Fox, Colonel

Bentinck, Lord G.

Graham, Right Hon. Sir J.

Bernal, R.

Briggs, R.

Gordon, R.

Bruce, Lord E.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Burrell, Sir C.

Halcombe, J.

Buxton, T. F.

Heathcote, J.

Byng, Sir J.

Home, Sir W.

Campbell, Sir J.

Howard, P. H.

Carter, J. B.

Hyett, W. H.

Chapman, A.

Inglis, Sir R.

Childers, J. W.

Labouchere, H.

Codrington, Sir E.

Langton J. H.

Duncannon, Lord

Littleton, Rt. Hon. E.

Dundas, Sir R.

Lumley, Lord

Ebrington, Lord

Lushington, Dr.

Egerton, W. T.

Lyall, G.

Ellice, Right Hon. E.

Maberly, Colonel

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Macaulay, T. B.

Vernon, Hon. G. S.

Mangles, J.

Ward, H. G.

Marshall, J.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Marjoribanks, S.

Wilmot, Sir J. E.

Moreton, Hon. A. H.

Young, G. F.

Morpeth, Lord

SCOTLAND.

Mosley, Sir O.

Dalmeny, Lord

Nicholl, J.

Elliott, Hon. Capt.

Ord, W. H.

Ewing, J.

Palmerston, Lord

Grant, Right Hon. C.

Peter, W.

Haliburton, Hon. D. G.

Pinney, W.

Hay, Colonel L.

Price, Sir R.

Jeffrey, Right Hon. F.

Pryme, G.

Kennedy T. F.

Rice, Hon. T. S.

Mackenzie, J. A.

Ryle, J.

Macleod, M.

Sandon, Lord

Murray, J. A.

Scrope, P.

IRELAND.

Sebright, Sir J.

Browne, D.

Sheppard, T.

Cole, Hon. A.

Skipwith, Sir J.

Evans, G.

Spankie, Sergeant

Fitzgerald, T.

Spencer, Captain

French, T.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. E. G.

Hayes, Sir E.

Stanley, Hon. H.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Stanley, J.

Jones, Capt.

Stewart, P. M.

Lamb, Hon. G.

Stuart, Lord D.

Mullins, F. W.

Talmash, A. G.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Tancred, H. W.

O'Reilly, W.

Thomson, Rt. Hon.

Perrin, Sergeant C. P.

Shaw, F.

Torrens, Colonel

Sullivan, R.

Townley, R. G.

Walker, C. A.

Townshend, Lord C. J.

TELLERS.

Tracy, C. H.

Smith, V.

Troubridge, Sir T.

Wood, C.

Verney, Sir H.

BANK CHARTER, BILL.
Report brought up. On Question that it be read,
Mr. G. Woodmoved, that the legal tender clause be omitted.
Mr. Humesupported the Motion. He conceived the clause in question calculated to cause a depreciation of the currency. He was sorry to find that on this subject, the Ministers had abandoned their former principles. He thought the public interest sacrificed by the Bill, and that of the Bank alone consulted.
Lord Althorpdenied that a depreciation of the currency would be the consequence of the adoption of the measure.
Mr. Mark Philipssaid, that when he saw the avidity with which the clause in question had been hailed by those who were desirous of altering the standard of the currency of the country, he could not but regret its introduction into the Bill. He should very much regret to see the Bank of England assume the functions of the whole circulation of the country. He was opposed to the clause,
Colonel Torrenscontended, that no depreciation would be caused in the London district; and, in the rest of the country, the only depreciation would be caused by the expense merely of carriage—so small a depreciation that it might be rated at zero.
Motion negatived.
Lord Althorpthen moved an additional clause, to the effect that all Bills of Exchange, Bank-Post-Bills, and Promissory Notes issued from the branch banks of the Bank of England out of London should be payable only at the places from which they should be issued.
Clause agreed to.

CHINA TRADE BILL.
Mr. Charles Grant Mr. Charles Grant moved the third reading of the above Bill.
Sir Robert Inglisobserved, that it would have been better to allow the trade to remain for some time longer in the hands of the Company, or at least to have allowed them to participate in it along with the private traders. He doubted whether the agents or consuls appointed by the Bill would be recognised by the China government, and believed it would have been better to have had some previous communication with that power.
Mr. Humesaid, that he should give his support to the Bill. He thought, that there was no fear of collision between our seamen and the Chinese.
Lord Sandoninquired when the China trade would be thrown open?
Mr. Charles Grantsaid, that the East-India Company's privileges would not expire until April, 1834; and that, therefore, they would not give up any of their commercial advantages until then.
The Bill read a third time.
Mr. George F. Young Mr. George F. Young moved, that the following clause be added as a rider to the Bill:—" And be it enacted, that the expenses of the establishment by this Act authorized to be maintained within the said dominions, shall be defrayed in like manner as the expenses of British consular establishments in other parts of the world are defrayed, under the authority of an Act passed in the fifth year of the reign of his late Majesty King George 4th., entitled An Act to regulate the payment of salaries and allowances to British Consuls at foreign ports, and the disbursements at such ports for certain public purposes,' and subject in all respects to

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the provisoes and regulations in the said Act made and provided."
Mr. Chapmanseconded the Amendment.
Mr. Robert Grantopposed it.
Amendment negatived; the Bill passed.

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of the Earl of HADDINGTON, a Copy of the Warrant for a Poll Election in the Burgh of Dundee, in 1830.
Bills. Read a second time;—Thames Tunnel; Woolwich Lands.
Petitions presentcd. By the Earl of ROSSLYN, from three Places, for Alterations in the Burgh Magistrates (Scotland) Bill.—By the Marquees of LANSDOWN, from Chard, for a Measure to lessen the Expense of Suing for a Debt under 20 l.—By the Earl of HAARROWBY, from Sculcoates, against the Scotch and Irish Vagrants Bill.

SLAVERY—PETITION.
The Duke of Wellingtonpresented a Petition from the proprietors of estates in Jamaica, complaining

503
of the losses to which they should be exposed by the Bill in progress in their Lordships' House; and praying to be heard by Counsel against the same. The noble Duke moved, that the petitioners be heard by Counsel.
The Earl of Ripondid not think that the delay which an acquiescence in the noble Duke's Motion must occasion would be compensated by any adequate advantage. To the principle of the Bill in question, their Lordships had already agreed, and an opportunity would soon arrive for examining and considering its details.
The Duke of Wellingtonmust remonstrate against the haste with which the measure was pressed forward. The other evening he had in vain urged the noble Earl to consent to a delay of twenty-four hours, in consequence of the unavoidable absence from town of a noble friend of his who was deeply interested in the Bill. Under these circumstances he really thought it was not too much to ask that the petitioners, who had so much at stake upon the question, should be heard by Counsel.
The Earl of Rosslynobserved, that although the Resolutions, when discussed, did not contain any specific period for the apprenticeships, it was generally understood that that period was to be twelve years. Such was the understanding communicated to the West Indies, and to that understanding it had been believed his Majesty's Government would have adhered. A modification of this part of the Bill had, however, taken place in the House of Commons. It was true, that the Resolution did not bind Parliament; but so great a departure from it demanded serious consideration.
The Motion, that the petitioners be heard by Counsel, negatived.

MINISTERIAL PLAN FOR THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Abolition of Slavery Bill having been read,
The Earl of Ripon The Earl of Ripon moved, that the Bill be read a second time.
After a short pause, during which the Lord Chancellor rose to put the question,
The Earl of Belmoreasked if the noble Earl meant to move the second reading of the Bill without offering any observations whatever in explanation of its principles? Such a course was certainly most unusual.
The Earl of Ripondid not see any
504
necessity for troubling the House with any observations upon the present occasion. The principle of the Bill had been admitted by the adoption of the Resolutions; and he should be taking up the time of the House most unnecessarily were he to offer any statements in explanation of it.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, the custom of the House had always been, that on the second reading of a Bill its proposer should state generally the principles on which it was founded, as well as the purport of its details, and he was, therefore, somewhat surprised at the course the noble Earl seemed resolved upon pursuing with regard to the present Bill. He certainly had expected some statement from the noble Earl explanatory of the important details of the measure, and he submitted that it was in courtesy due to their Lordships to give them such an explanation. If the noble Earl was resolved to make no statement, their Lordships of course had no alternative but to discuss the Bill on their own interpretation of its details; but if they were to be treated with that decorum to which they were entitled, they ought at least to be informed what were the motives which induced the Government to insert many provisions in the Bill at direct variance with the spirit of the Resolutions.
Earl Greyadmitted, that the general custom was, on the second reading of a Bill, to offer a statement of its general purport, and explain briefly the nature of its details. The present Bill, however, came before the House under extraordinary circumstances, inasmuch as its general principles had not only been discussed, but assented to before its introduction. With respect to the alterations which had been made in it since the Resolutions were discussed, he thought the Committee was the fitting stage for their consideration, and that his noble friend would only unnecessarily take up their Lordships' time by then alluding to them.
The Duke of Wellingtonobserved that, in the first two pages of the Bill, there were three or four provisions making a complete alteration in the principles of the measure as they were explained by the noble Earl who introduced the Resolutions to their Lordships' notice. In the first place, the period of apprenticeship had been shortened from twelve years to six years in some cases, and four years in Others. Now, that in itself was a most

505
serious alteration. In the next place, the commencement of the period of apprenticeship was changed from August, 1834, to January, 1834. Then in the Bill there were three descriptions of apprenticeship, while in the Resolution only one was contemplated. There was likewise in the Bill a total alteration in the laws respecting slaves, not in any way alluded to when the Resolutions were before the House. These were great alterations, and he asked the House if they did not involve such a change in the measure as to require, at least, a short statement from the noble Earl? He had no hesitation in saying, their Lordships would not be treated with that respect which they had a right to demand if the noble Earl persisted in moving the second reading without offering any explanation of the motives which led to the alterations he had mentioned.
Lord Colvillewas prepared to object in toto to the principles of the Bill, which he thought had not been introduced from necessity, but in compliance with a delusion too successfully practised as well on the Government as on the country at large. He regretted much the absence of a noble friend of his, who, he was sure, could have given their Lordships a great deal of information regarding the likely results of the measure, many of the details of which he looked upon with considerable alarm. For his part, he did not consider himself pledged by the Resolutions to assent to the present Bill; and as he differed altogether from the principles on which it was founded, he should be quite ready, should a division take place, to vote against it.
The Earl of Ripondid not mean to contend that the noble Duke had pledged himself personally, or that their Lordships had pledged themselves to the passing of this Bill, by having agreed to the Resolutions, though certainly it would be a most unusual thing to reject the Bill on the second reading, under such circumstances. With regard to the alterations which it was stated had been made in the Bill, there certainly were alterations, but none of them were of such a nature as to affect the original principles on which the Bill was founded, and which were embraced by the Resolutions. The first alteration to which the noble Duke referred was the alteration in the length of the period of apprenticeship. It was perfectly true, that in stating to their Lordships the
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nature of the measure, and the intentions of his Majesty's Government, he stated the Bill would contain, as it did contain, a provision for a period of twelve years' apprenticeship. That proposition was made, and it was discussed, as every one knew, in the other House of Parliament. The result of that discussion, however, was such as to make it evident, that so long a terra as twelve years was not likely to be conceded. His Majesty's Government had stated their reasons for thinking as he did, that period the best; but they yielded to the general opinion of the House of Commons in favour of a shorter time. Still, it did not appear to him that the change, which was only a matter of detail, was such as to induce their Lordships to refuse to proceed to the second reading of this measure. Another alteration to which the noble Duke objected, was the distinction made between prædial or prædial unattached, and non-prædial slaves. He would not at that period positively state that he had explained that part of the plan to their Lordships, but it certainly was part of the original plan, and involved nothing inconsistent with the principles of the Bill, or the intentions of his Majesty's Government. The classification proposed was the most convenient mode of dispensing to these persons the advantages which it was the object of the Bill to bestow upon them. The noble Duke had also complained of the alteration in the time which it was originally fixed that this enactment should come into operation. A change had certainly taken place, but it would be much more convenient to explain the reasons for that change when considering the details in Committee. He did not understand how that change could be deemed at all inconsistent with the Resolutions. Originally it was intended that on the 1st of November, 1833, the power of punishing slaves should be taken away from the masters, and vested solely in the Magistrates; and that on the 1st of August, 1834, the period of apprenticeship should commence. The Gentlemen, however, who represented the interests of the planters in this country, themselves objected to the arrangement, stating, that the intervening period would be found productive of much inconvenience, and that it would be a great improvement if the apprenticeship and the withdrawal of the power of punishment from the hands of the planters were to

507
commence together, for which reason the dates were altered to the 1st of June, 1834. It was not for him then to contend whether this were a wise or an unwise alteration—all that was needful for him to remark was, that it did not affect the principle of the Bill, which was that of ultimate emancipation, preceded by a probationary state of apprenticeship. With respect to other alterations, he thought they would be best discussed in Committee. He had already made a full statement when the principle of the Bill was admitted, and he thought the course which he proposed to adopt was the most convenient, and one which could not justly be deemed disrespectful to the House.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, he would not enter on the question of respect to the House, but it was quite clear, that if the noble Earl was determined not to make his speech, their Lordships could not compel him. The House had been occupied some time in listening to a discussion, which was doubtless very interesting, but the discussion which ought to have taken place was, whether it would be advisable to read the Bill a second time. It was the usual course for some member of his Majesty's Government to enter into an explanation of a Bill on the second reading. Their Lordships did not know what the measure before them was; they knew the Resolutions which they had agreed to; but of the measure by which those Resolutions were to be carried into effect by the Bill now before them, they were, or must be presumed to be, ignorant. All they knew was, that it was a very different measure from that which they had reason to expect when they agreed to the Resolutions. It was said the details might be settled in Committee, but the propriety of the Bill could not be ascertained by a separate examination of each clause in Committee, but by a general consideration of its details, and of the adaptation of its machinery to its object. He thought it much better, that the noble Earl should give his explanation in the present stage of the Bill.
The Earl of Belmorewould endeavour briefly to state his objections to the Bill: and he hoped that, in doing so, their Lordships would acquit him of any desire to sanction a system of slavery with his approbation. On the contrary, he would not prolong its continuance in our colonial possessions one moment beyond the
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period when a state of society so uncongenial to our habits and our feelings could be safely dispensed with. He concurred with those who desired its immediate abolition, if that abolition could be carried into effect with safety to our commerce, and with advantage to our colonies, and with a probability of increasing the industry, civilization, and social order of the negroes themselves. But great as was his desire to expedite the period when such a system might be dispensed with, from a firm conviction that our colonies would not prosper except from the application of the capital and industry of an increasing free population, he begged, however, to disclaim any participation in the belief of those statements of cruelty practised by the masters towards the slaves, which had so unjustly been propagated in this country, for the purpose of exciting an unjust prejudice against those whose capital and industry had so materially promoted the prosperity of this nation. No doubt the power given to the planters had been, in some instances, abused; and such instances had come under his own knowledge; but these were merely exceptions. These statements had, however, served their purpose; and, instead of coming to consider this Bill calmly and deliberately, they were told that such was the feeling prevailing amongst the people of this country, that emancipation must, at whatever hazard, be immediately conceded. Certainly, the course pursued by the noble Lord who recently held the office of Colonial Secretary, was by no means calculated to allay excitement; and the demand for emancipation had, since his taking office, increased ten-fold. He was willing to believe, however, that the noble Lord saw many of the objections which related to the plan, and that he yielded to what he believed to be a measure of expediency. It was, however, incumbent on the noble Lord to show that the measure was practicable, and that its details could be carried into execution, consistently with the safety and advantage of our colonial possessions, or the commercial interests of this country. This, however, was a point to which he found the advocates of negro emancipation seldom adverted; and he had not heard from any one, that this measure was expected to confer a benefit on any one interest in the empire. The fact that compensation was given, proved

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the contrary. The planters had reluctantly, on payment of twenty millions, given their consent to a measure which they believed to be fraught with ruin and destruction, and which would affect the safety of our colonies, and materially injure our commercial prosperity. The people of this country, too, had been required to purchase the measure at a very large price—that measure, too, would injure our commerce, at a time when all the interests of the country were complaining of depression. What, he should like to know, would be gained by the measure, in the way of cultivating the islands by productive negro labour?—Nothing. Nothing, in short, would be gained by the Bill but the affirmation of an abstract principle. He had examined the plan proposed by the noble Lord for free cultivation in the colony of British Guiana—he had examined the mode proposed by the noble Lord, for continuing productive labour there—and their Lordships would find, on reference to it, that it was founded on a system of coercion, infinitely more severe in a practical point of view, than that under which the slaves now lived, and which, in his opinion, was utterly inconsistent with a state of freedom. There was this fundamental error in the noble Lord's plan, that the means proposed for coercing labour were opposed to an increase of the population, which, in his opinion, was the only natural and safe mode of effecting a change from slavery to freedom, if such a system as this were necessary to enforce free productive labour, how was productive labour to be expected from the slaves, if emancipated in the mode proposed? Such a plan would be merely changing the name of slavery, and nothing more. It might be said, that this measure of the noble Lord had been rather unceremoniously set aside by the right hon. Gentleman who succeeded him; but he complained that the plan was still adhered to, whilst the right hon. Gentleman had not thought fit to give any details of the manner in which he proposed to carry it into execution. In truth, as to all that related to the trade of the country, in connection with this subject, their Lordships were called upon to legislate in the dark. The measure might meet the concurrence of the local Legislatures, the twenty-millions might be paid and distributed, the machinery might be put into operation, and
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yet, after all, the measure might be found wholly inoperative. He was sure, let them do what they would, that they could never get the negroes to work for wages; and, in confirmation of this opinion, he would appeal to the noble Earl opposite. The noble Earl had himself suggested a tax of 40 s. an acre on land cultivated for articles of subsistence, while land cultivated for superfluities was allowed to go tax free, in order to induce the negroes, by the constraint of necessity, to work. The noble Earl was persuaded—and he thought rightly persuaded—that unless there were some system of coercion—unless the necessity arising from misery and want were created—that the negroes would not work. He did not say this from supposing that there was any peculiarity in the negroes, but from supposing that they were like other men. He would not say that they were lazy—they were rather indolent than idle. He had no doubt that the negroes would work for their subsistence—they would do that from their natural instinct, like the Europeans. But they did not like work any more than the Europeans; and he was convinced, should this Bill become law, that it would baffle all the efforts of subsequent legislation to prevent the negro men from making slaves of the negro women. He did not attribute this to any peculiarity of character in the negroes, for he thought Europeans would be likely to act in a similar manner. If it were possible that the 300,000 slaves now in Jamaica could be deported, and their places be supplied by 300,000 European labourers, he did not believe, that the latter would work for wages any more than the former; and the more industrious they were, the less they would be likely to work for wages. They would all prefer to work for themselves; and they would, in such a place as Jamaica, find means to do that. Jamaica was 170 miles long, by forty-five broad, and its population did not exceed 400,000. There were about 40,000 Europeans, about 40,000 free blacks and people of colour, and about 300,000 slaves. But that island was capable of containing a much greater population. He believed, that at the time it was discovered, it was supposed to have contained 1,000,000 inhabitants; and he had no doubt that, under proper regulations, the island might at no distant period, if its resources were developed,

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possess 3,000,000 inhabitants. Under those circumstances, with so much room, and with a great facility of obtaining food, would not, under any system, the free labourers rather occupy and cultivate the soil on their own account, than work for wages? At present, two-thirds of Jamaica were wood and bush; and how could it be imagined that the slaves, when liberated, would work for others rather than for themselves? They would work, he believed, to obtain subsistence for themselves, and even to obtain comforts. Jamaica abounded in means of support; cattle were plentiful, the rivers teemed with fish, and the negroes had plenty of swine and poultry, though they liked the former much better than the latter. There was not enough of them to make a competition for land; rent, therefore, would be nominal. Their Lordships knew, that high rents were in Europe the result only of the density of the population. It was said by those who certainly did not know much on the subject, that it was not so easy to obtain subsistence in Jamaica, and that the labour of the slaves for twenty-six days in the year barely sufficed to maintain themselves. On the contrary, the labour of the slaves on those days not only sufficed to maintain themselves, but to provide subsistence for most of the inhabitants of the towns on the island. He was convinced that at least nine-tenths of the inhabitants of the towns in Jamaica were provided with subsistence by what the negroes brought to market. He would mention another fact of importance. Their Lordships knew that there was a rebellion in one part of the island; for nearly two months that part of the island was crowded with troops, and though the country suffered from a state of warfare, and there was, of course, much destruction, yet, during all that time, and till the termination of the rebellion, there was no scarcity of food, notwithstanding the additional number of mouths they had to feed. These were then an abundance of proofs, that the twenty-six days' labour of the slaves, sufficed to subsist themselves and the great majority of the inhabitants of the towns in the island. The noble Earl then referred to the evidence of Mr. Shaud, to show that the negroes might obtain other things at a small cost. That gentleman said, that the expense of each slave for European stores was 1l. 17 s. perhead, Looking to their wages
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at present, a mistake was made, he thought, by not including in what was now given, the profit of the master. It should be remembered, that slaves were now let out by their masters; and Mr. Thorpe stated, that 2s. 6d. was the hire of a slave's labour for the day. Looking, then, at what was now the wages of a slave, and the little cost at which they could obtain clothes and all such allowances, he could not conceive what inducement they would find to work for wages. If the negroes were emancipated, unless under some of those restrictions formerly proposed by the noble Earl (Earl Ripon), he was sure that they would not work for hire. One of the arguments in favour of the measure was, that if the slaves were not emancipated, they would emancipate themselves; but that, he thought, was an unfounded apprehension, for the slaves were the feeblest of all possible creatures. They were powerful, he admitted, for mischief, but were easily checked and controlled, He also admitted, that at the last insurrection in Jamaica, they had done a great deal of mischief; but they would not have done that, had they not been abominably and cruelly deceived into supposing that the authorities of the island would not oppose their outrages. Before the troops could be collected, they had done much mischief, but they had not succeeded in any other object. He looked upon the opinion that they could make a successful attempt at insurrection to be most preposterous. Nothing was so feeble as the negroes; and it was quite impossible that they should ever be able to emancipate themselves by force. Proceeding to look at the Bill itself, he must maintain, that no state of society ever existed like that which the Bill would make, should it pass into a law. The noble Earl referred in particular to the 17th clause, as destroying all authority of the masters over their apprentices and servants; and the state of society which that would produce he could not imagine. The masters would have no control over their servants, but that which would be supplied by a stipendiary Magistrate and a Court of Justice. He appealed to their Lordships, whether they could carry on the business of their own families if they had no other control over their servants than that of the Magistrate? Their Lordships could remonstrate with their servants if they neglected their duty, and might discharge them; but the master

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in Jamaica could not do that. He must appeal to the stipendiary Magistrate. Not one of their Lordships, he was sure, could endure to live in a state of society where they must submit to such evils; and he was sure that every person who could, would escape from the colonies. He repeated, that the masters in the colonies would be unable to discharge their apprentices or servants—they could only appeal to the stipendiary Magistrate, and after he had punished the servant, the master and the servant must return home to their several occupations. The same regulation would apply to persons engaged in agriculture; and he wished to know how the farmers of this country would like it if they could get no redress for the negligence of their ploughmen or waggoners, without applying to the Magistrates? He saw that, by another part of the Bill, it was expected that the stipendiary Magistrates should be half-pay officers; and could it be expected, that they should be good judges of the making of cane holes? Those who were acquainted with the agriculture of the island were to be carefully excluded from these offices. The stipendiary Magistrates were all to be strangers; they were to know nothing of the colony, in order that they might be impartial; and how were they to judge, if the labour had been effectually performed in the cultivation of sugar? These were only a few of the objections which he had to the Bill; and he must declare that it appeared to him doubtful whether it would not in its consequences render emancipation equally injurious to the planters and the slaves, to the colonies and the United Kingdom. He was ready to admit, that slavery was itself injurious; that while it existed, the resources of the colonies could not be developed. He had stated that before, and he adhered to his opinion. He would not yield to any member of the Government, nor to any member of the Anti-slavery Society, in a desire to promote emancipation, consistently with justice, and with the welfare of the masters and the slaves. He believed, too, that it would be consistent with many improvements; but emancipation by the Legislature was impracticable, and ought not to be attempted. He passed by the flagrant usurpation by such a measure of the rights of those colonies which possessed Legislatures, and the constitutions of which
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had been as solemnly recognised as any rights ever ceded by the Crown. He admitted, indeed, the power of the Government to over-rule those Legislatures; but it was only the power of might against right; it was strength against weakness, and a strength we should not dare to use, if those colonies were situated on the American continent, instead of lying off its shores. Their Lordships might yet live to rue the effects of that Bill on the colonies; and that time would come, when the great Power in the neighbourhood of which the colonies were situated, and which was aware of their value, should be engaged in hostility with us, and being sensible of the errors of our policy, should be able, as she was not ill-disposed, to profit by them.
Lord Suffieldsupported the Bill, but stated that he objected to the 20,000,000 l. being given as compensation, because he was sure that it was more than the planters ought to get, and more than they would have accepted if they had been pressed. The noble Lord also stated, that he should object in the Committee to the clause settling the salaries, as we understood, of the stipendiary Magistrates, and to the clause relative to the Mauritius. With reference to the opinion of the noble Earl who had just taken his seat, that the negroes would not work for wages, he reminded their Lordships of the colony of Liberia, when, of 142 colonists in 1828, only twenty were, at the end of one week, a charge to the United Stales government. The noble Lord also referred to the evidence of Admiral Fleming and other persons, to show that the negroes worked in the Caraccas, in Cuba, and other places for hire. In Jamaica, he knew, on good authority, that the negroes hired each other, and he knew (hat the rate of their wages was fifteen-pence a-day. With respect to the cruelties of the system, of course the noble Earl, from his official situation, would be the last person to hear of them. As to having no control over their servants, he would ask, what control had their Lordships over their servants? Did the noble Earl want to introduce the whip into our families, for his argument went to that? What control was there here but that of the Magistrates? He should give his strenuous support to the Bill.
The Earl of Riponthought, that a great many of the observations which had fallen

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from the noble Earl opposite went to confirm the principle of the Bill, and particularly that portion of it which involved the ultimate abolition of slavery. The noble Earl objected to the existence of slavery, and had expressed his opinion that the resources of the island of Jamaica never could be fully developed while the system of slavery lasted. He (the Earl of Ripon) could not well imagine any state of society more calling for change than that which had been described by the noble Earl as inconsistent with the principles of the British Constitution, repugnant to all feelings of humanity, and an obvious and direct drawback on the development of the resources of the colonies. The noble Earl had alluded to exaggerated statements circulated in this country respecting the state of slavery in the West Indies, and had implied that Ministers had been influenced by those misrepresentations. That he denied. He, as well as the Government of which he was a member, had always looked at this question as a practical question; they were desirous of seeing it settled in such a way as would prove beneficial to the colonies themselves, and prevent it being a source of perpetual agitation. The noble Earl had stated, that the negroes were incapable of carrying insurrection to a successful termination. That might be the case; but it should be recollected, that the insurrections in which they had hitherto been engaged had been put down, not by the unassisted efforts of the slave owners, but by means of the naval and military forces of this country. However, powerless the negroes might be to effect a Revolution, it must be confessed that the present state of society in the colonies was full of insecurity and danger, and would remain so as long as there existed the elements out of which even an attempt at rebellion could be formed. It was admitted on all hands, that the colonies were precisely in that condition, and he therefore was of opinion, that the West-India proprietors would consider their interest benefited, if some means were adopted whereby the present state of circumstances might be changed. Their Lordships were told, that the very discussion of this question was replete with danger; but to that statement he must reply, that it was the business and duty of Government to meet and overcome that danger. The noble Earl had alluded to a plan of emancipa-
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tion which he (the Earl of Ripon) had submitted to the West-India proprietors, in which he proposed to accompany the state of freedom by coercive laws; and the noble Earl observed, that the existence of those laws with a state of freedom was an anomaly. He admitted that it was an anomaly; but then it should be recollected, that they were dealing with an anomalous state of society. He would not follow the noble Earl through the comments which he had been pleased to make on his (the Earl of Ripon's) proposition. It would be sufficient for him to say, that he had proposed it to the West-India proprietors as a mode by which, with their concurrence, the great object the Government had, at heart might be effected. They, however, did not take the same view of the matter; they objected both to the principle and the details of the plan; and it therefore became his duty to consider whether it would be advisable for the Government to persist in that particular scheme, or make some other arrangement, which would as effectually serve their purpose, and at the same time be free from those objections urged by the West-India body against the first proposition. It did not fall to his lot to communicate with the proprietors of colonial property on the subject of the plan now submitted to Parliament; but he most entirely concurred in the substitution which had been made, as his only object, throughout the whole business, had been to adopt the best and most satisfactory means of setting this question at rest; and he was convinced, that its settlement never would be effected, except by the direct interference of the Government and Parliament. He had always been of opinion, from the moment Parliament abolished the Slave-trade, that the abolition of slavery had become merely a question of time. But if the arguments of the noble Earl were to carry any weight with them, it would be difficult to conceive when the fit time for emancipation could arrive; for though a certain portion of the noble Earl's speech seemed to be directed against the maintenance of a permanent system of slavery, he argued at the same time that the negroes were idle, and would not work unless by compulsion. But he must contend that the negroes were influenced by the same motives as all other men, and the tendency of all the evidence which had been given on the subject was to

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prove that they were disposed not only to work for the necessaries, but even for the comforts and luxuries of life. The noble Earl had expressed an objection to that part of the Bill which allowed corporal punishment to be inflicted only in pursuance of the sentence of a Magistrate, and he had asked their Lordships how they would like to have offences committed by their domestic servants decided upon by a Magistrate. Surely the noble Earl did not mean to say, that he wished masters in England to possess the power of corporally punishing their domestic servants. The noble Earl should bear in mind that the cases of cruelty which had created the strongest impression in this country were exactly those in which the unlimited power of punishment possessed by the slave-owner, had been exercised against domestic slaves. It therefore appeared to him, that nothing was so desirable, when a change was made in the relative condition of these parties, as that the power of inflicting corporal punishment should be taken from the masters, and placed in other hands. With respect to the general question, he thought there could be no difference of opinion as to the impossibility, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, of standing still. Their Lordships could not shut their eyes to the state in which this question stood. It might be said, that all the difficulty with which this subject was surrounded had arisen from the unreasonable warmth and zeal by which the question had been taken up by a body of persons in this country. It might also be said, that too much facility had been given by Government to the operation of those feelings; but, in point of fact, those feelings had existed for a great length of time, and produced a wonderful impression; and what their Lordships had to deal with was, the question as it presented itself under existing circumstances. He did not think that the Government could be justly charged with having any share in creating those circumstances, for it was impossible that the question could be long discussed by the country without Parliament being called upon to endeavour, once for all, to settle it. He was not unaware that its settlement was a matter of difficulty; but, though he had heard of various schemes of emancipation, he had never seen any more calculated than the present to bring about a satisfactory and safe settlement.
The Duke of Wellingtonfully agreed, that it had now become impossible for this matter to stand still, whatever might be the mode adopted of forwarding it. He must observe, however, that the manner in which Government had taken the lead in putting forward this abolition measure, had exhibited the most unequivocal contempt of the rights of private property. He denied, however, that there existed any necessity for framing the measure in its present shape, or any shape like it. The proper way would have been to induce the Colonial Legislature, to take means for improving the social and moral condition of the slaves, so as to bring them to such a state in which it would be safe and advantageous for all parties concerned, to do away with slavery altogether. Without this discipline, it would be fatal to all parties to emancipate the negroes. As to the proposed alteration of the relative positions of the colonists and their negroes, were they likely to have fewer rebellions when the parties were called master and apprentice, instead of master and slave? There would, on the contrary, he believed, be more than ever; and, indeed, before long matters he was afraid, would come to such a pass in the colonies, as to reduce us to the necessity of destroying the black population. Then there was another provision in the Bill which would very materially be objected to by the proprietors: for they were not to be allowed the power of dismissing their apprentices on any grounds, even though the latter should be quite worn out and unserviceable; and not only were they not allowed to get rid of them till the end of those six years, but they were obliged to maintain them. Ministers had only provided 100 Magistrates for the whole nineteen colonies, but they would And that such would be the disorder produced by this Bill, that they would require 100 for Jamaica alone. As he had said before, such a hazardous measure as the emancipation of the negroes ought to be very gradual in its operation. The first point should be to conciliate the colonists, so as to ensure their co-operation. Nothing should be done hastily in a matter which involved such immense public and private interests, and in which the negroes themselves were so deeply concerned. It was absurd to expect that the negroes, in such a climate as that of the West-Indies, would work as regular agriculturists, unless they were obliged to work; the

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proprietors in the United States, in Colombia, in Guyana, would bear ready testimony to the truth of that proposition. Instead of this arbitrary Bill, the measure ought to have been commenced by Resolutions, recommending' to the Colonial Legislature certain acts to be done, and promising compensation for all losses sustained by the operation of such Acts. That might have ensured the co-operation of the local Legislature, without Which nothing could be effectually done; and he was sure, that those Legislatures would never concur in such a harsh and violent measure as the present; which was moreover a measure quite different from the one formerly proposed by the noble Lord—and essentially different in several of its most important points. In the apprentice clause, for instance; the Bill would have the effect of making an extensive and dangerous alteration in the existing law, for whereas at present, although a slave accompanying his master to England would be free while in this country, yet, on his return to the colonies, he would again be a slave; this Bill rendered the fact of his being once free sufficient to make him free for life. He repeated that the proper course would be to suggest certain things, and promise certain compensation to the colonists, and leave to their judgment, (which on such matters must surely be better than that of the Government at home), to use the best means for carrying such measures into effect, and to distribute properly the compensation money. The colonists generally would take care of its impartial distribution. Here, too, he must object to the present plan, that instead of raising the proposed sum at once, and either handing it over to the Colonial Legislature, or putting it out to interest on their account, the compensation money was not to be got together till the termination of the apprenticeship. The proper way would be when the average rate per head was fixed, and the total amount ascertained, to transmit such amount to the authorities to be distributed by them, when the wishes of Government had been carried into effect. By the change now proposed as to the time of the labour of the negroes, the proprietors would lose one-fourth of the amount of produce now obtained from their estates, and they would in justice be entitled to compensation for that loss. The produce at present amounted to 12,000,000 l. sterling,
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and by this change it would be reduced by the sum of 3,000,000 l. sterling. The difference in the amount of the value of the labour of the negro was equivalent to the whole amount of the rent; so that the loss would be very considerable. Was the taking away so much the sort of protection which that House and the Government ought to give to the planters? Had not the planter been suffciently interfered with already? Had not the Government allowed, and indeed encouraged men to go among the slaves, and leach with the utmost freedom all sorts of doctrines? The provisions of the 52nd George 3rd, c. 155, carried toleration to its fullest extent. It had certainly been passed in a very liberal spirit, but he doubted whether it could be called the work of prudent Statesmen. Nothing could be a matter of greater delicacy than the licensing of sectarian instructors under this Act. Did the House imagine that they could ever establish the negroes as a part of society in the islands of the West Indies? Let them refer to the opinions of some of the wisest and best men in America, in those States in which slavery had been abolished, and they would find, that when by law the negroes had been made fellow citizens with the Americans, it had been found necessary to begin colonization in order to remove them from the States, with the citizens of which, it was impossible they should ever perfectly amalgamate. The noble Duke here read the opinion of General Harper on this subject, who had declared his firm conviction, that there never could be an intimate union between the two races; that they never would look on each other as fellow-citizens in the cordial manner in which different classes of men living in the same country, and subject to the same laws, should do; and that the colonization of the negroes was, therefore, necessary for their advantage, as well as for that of the Americans themselves. Again, he called on the House to look at the details of this Bill, many of which were such an interference with the right of internal legislation possessed by the colonies, that it was not surprising they should object to it. The Bill, in fact, was a renewal of the attempt at internal taxation, which he imagined had been abandoned a long time ago. Looking at all these circumstances, he entreated the Government to revise the measure, and to take out of it those harsh

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parts which he regretted to see introduced with respect to the colonies, and to take away those clauses which it was impossible that any Legislatures in the colonies could agree to.
The Lord Chancellorwas a little surprised by the charge of the noble Duke, that the present was a precipitate and uncalled-for measure, for which Ministers only should be responsible, as they only had a hand or felt an interest in its enactment. Never was a charge more unfounded; for, be the measure in principle right or be it wrong, or let the probable consequences of its provisions be what they might, he maintained that it was not volunteered by Ministers—that they had not led the way in proposing its adoption—that it was no precipitate and ill-advised scheme of their own crude fancies—but one loudly demanded by the all but unanimous voice of the people of England—one based on the rooted opinion, and conviction, and most ardent feeling of the community at large—a measure, moreover, which was not attributable so much to either the mother country, or Parliament, or the Government, as to the ill-advised conduct of the Local Legislatures themselves, who had, after long delay, made it the duty of the Government and the Parliament of the mother country to interfere, and endeavour to accomplish that great and most meritorious object which the best and ablest men in the empire had, for the last quarter of a century, more particularly for the last twelve or fifteen years, earnestly advocated; and which public opinion was now set so strongly in favour of, that no government, however anxious to delay or frustrate the attainment of that object, could any longer help lending its aid to accomplish. He had himself been for some time deeply impressed with the conviction that the period was arrived beyond which Parliament could no longer refuse its aid in accomplishing the anxiously sought wishes of the people; and that the longer the delay the greater was the danger. The noble Duke objected to the present Bill, because it would, according to him, be an assertion of the right of the Imperial Parliament to legislate for the internal affairs of the colonies. He was surprised that the noble Duke should again dish up this thirty-times refuted assertion. The very statute, the 18th of George 3rd, to which the noble Duke referred, as en-
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suring the colonies the exclusive right, of internal legislation, actually retained the right and that, too, while it renounced the right to impose taxes upon the colonies. That Statute recited, 'That the taxation by the Parliament of Great Britain, for the purpose of raising a revenue in the colonies of North America had occasioned great uneasiness and disorder among his Majesty's faithful subjects, who might nevertheless be disposed to acknowledge the justice of contributing to the common defence of the Empire, provided such contributions were raised by the assembly of each province. In order to remove the said uneasiness, &c. it was expedient to declare that the King and Parliament of Great Brtiain will not impose any duty, &c. for the purpose of raising a revenue in any of the colonies &c. Be it therefore, enacted that from and after the passing of this Act, the King and Parliament will not impose any duty tax, or assessment what ever, payable in any of his Majesty's colonies, provinces, and plantations in North America, and the West Indies, except only such duties as it may be expedient to impose for the regulation of commerce, the nett produce of such duties to be always paid, and applied to, and for the use of the colony, in which the same shall be levied, in such manner as other duties collected by the authority of the respective general courts or general assemblies of such colonies provinces, or plantations, are ordinarily paid and applied.' The right, therefore, to interfere in the internal affairs of the colonies was never abandoned; the exercise of that right being merely suspended in the particular case of taxation, and that suspension, too, was voluntary, on grounds of temporary expediency. That was the view taken theoretically by Mr. Burke, and practically asserted by Mr. Secretary Dundas. All Mr. Burke's speeches bore testimony to his sincerity, for to that and to his views on this point he sacrificed his seat at Bristol. With respect to the noble Duke's remarks, as to the improbability of free negroes working, if it were the nature of the negro, under existing circumstances, to find a delight in cultivating his ground, after his day's work for his master was at an end, surely he would not so alter his nature as to refuse voluntary work when this new arrangement came into operation. The noble

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Duke had objected to the apprenticeship clause; but power was given to the local Legislatures to enact regulations for the government of apprentices, and it was better left to the local Legislatures to provide for the details, which required local knowledge, than to do so by that Bill. With respect to the change of plan between the resolutions and the Bill, although he (the Lord Chancellor) denied that there was any real discrepancy between the resolutions and the Bill, but between the statements that accompanied the resolutions and the plan in the Bill; the change was effected by the House of Commons, who thought it expedient to reduce the term of twelve years to seven, when they were increasing the amount of the gift from 15,000,000 l. to 20,000,000 l. If they had reduced it to five years, he (the Lord Chancellor) should not have broken his heart, either on account of the masters or on account of the slaves. To suppose that the apprenticeship would last seven years was out of all reason. He did not think it would last five. The first persons to desire an alteration would be the local Legislatures, which would reduce the seven years to a shorter period. The noble Duke had instituted a comparison between the emancipation of the Catholics in Ireland and that of the slaves in the West Indies; but the cases were totally different. There was not an Act in the Statute-book to show that we had no right to make a law to bind Jamaica. The noble Duke had objected to the mode of the distribution of the money, and had said, that the simplest mode was to distribute it according to the number of slaves in each colony; but he (the Lord Chancellor) doubted if there were any two colonies in which the value of the slaves was the same; it varied from 15 l. or 20 l. to 45 l.; so that the mode of paying per capita would not be just in any one colony, and in no one case would the colony have what it ought to have. A more simple and just mode could not be devised than that of taking the combined ratio of number and value, by which justice was done to all. The case of Demerara was undoubtedly a special one; there the slaves were more severely taxed than in other colonies, and it was one of the worst traits of the system that the better the country for the master, the worse for the slave. Whole myriads of wretched creatures had been swept away on the discovery of a
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new island, or a virgin soil. That there was a deficiency of population in the colonies was undeniable; since the abominable African slave-trade had been abolished, the mortality of the slaves had been great and their numbers had diminished. This did not falsify the predictions of the abolitionists of the trade that there would be a sufficient number of hands to cultivate the soil, for those predictions were founded on the expectation that the colonists would do their duty to the slaves and to themselves, and that the local Legislatures would take steps to encourage breeding, the only mode of doing which was increasing the comforts of the slaves. It had been supposed by the noble Duke that there would be a falling-off in the quantity of sugar in consequence of this measure; he had at first supposed that nobody would work at all, and that we should have no sugar. If he (the Lord Chancellor) had that apprehension—if he believed that there was something in the nature of sugar cultivation so pernicious that no one would be induced by any kind of temptation, or by any species of motive, to devote himself to it as a labourer, and that nothing but the scourge, the fetter, and the lash could make a man labour at this kind of toil, what an argument was this against the continuance of slavery for one hour longer. And did not those who urged this consideration see that it would be one of the most flagrant of human enormities that sugar cultivation should be continued on such terms as these? The noble Duke said, that the quantity of sugar would be reduced from 12,000,000 l. to 9,000,000 l., and that the revenue would be proportionably reduced; but we were obliged at present, in order to keep out East-India sugar, to give a protecting duty to West-India sugar. We had only, therefore, to let in East-India sugar, and the damage would be repaired; we should raise a revenue of 9,000,000 l. from West-India sugar, and 3,000,000 l. from East-India. The Chancellor of the Exchequer would care no more whether the revenue came from East-India or West-India sugar, than ancient Tyre did as to the source from whence her wealth came. The noble Duke had dwelt upon the clause respecting the licensing of teachers. The delicate nature of the authority to be intrusted to Magistrates, in the exercise of the powers of the Act 52nd George

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3rd, was a reason why there should be a careful selection of the persons to whom those powers were to be confided. If it was found in the Committee that the authority might be safely extended, he should have no objection to extend it. What he wanted to guard against was this—that if the power was confided to resident Justices, with insular prejudices, he doubted whether one dozen of slave teachers would be appointed by the resident Magistracy. He wanted to supply a sufficient number of preachers and teachers for the slaves; and to secure sectarian teachers against persecution, by placing the power in the hands of those who would exercise a sound discretion, without prejudice or hostility, or a dogged determination that no sectarian should teach a slave. Evidence of the fact was wanting that any of these conscientious men had abused the liberty afforded them to raise disaffection. He did not believe that a tittle of evidence to prove such an assertion existed, and he had read all the evidence, which amounted to nothing. If he were asked for a reason why sectarian preachers should be permitted, he answered, that the only chance, the only possibility of teaching the slaves, was to be found in the zeal and congenial habits of those sectarian preachers. Send a man from Oxford or Cambridge to a colonial parish—why, they might as well be sent to a workshop in Birmingham or a spinning manufactory at Manchester; they would be just as fit for one as for the other. It was from the zeal and habits of these sectaries that we were to look for a progress in this great work. The noble and learned Lord concluded with saying, that after the exertions of more than a quarter of a century, it was no little gratification to him, and no little consolation for many disappointments and disquietudes, to have lived to see this great and good work brought so near to a consummation.
Lord Wynforddefended the colonial clergy against the remarks of the noble and learned Lord. If the clergy of the colonies were like those of England, they were ever ready to visit the humblest cottages of the poor. There was not the least pretence for saying that the cause of Christianity would not be as well served by them as by any sectarians whatever. His noble and learned friend had no pretence for saying, that the Colonial Legislatures were at all to blame, or were
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not ready and willing to adjust tin; great question, which could not be adjusted without their assistance. He objected to that clause in the Bill which removes the power of granting licenses to sectarian preachers from the Quarter Sessions to stipendiary Magistrates. This mark of degradation—for he could consider it only in that light—placed upon the colonial Magistrates, could only tend to keep alive those feelings of irritation which it was for the interest of all parties should be allowed to subside as soon as possible. It was not pretended that the Magistrates at the Quarter Sessions had ever abused the powers with which they were invested by refusing to license preachers, except on the ground of immorality. In the present measure all that was in the character of a boon appeared to come from England, whilst all the coercive regulations, which were likely to excite odium, were thrown upon the Local Legislatures. With respect to the mode of distributing the money, he contended, that a distribution per capita would be the only fair mode of dispensing the grant made to the planters. There appeared reason to apprehend that the effect of the measure would be to diminish the produce of sugar; and if that should be the case, the people of this country would bitterly repent that the Bill had been passed in such haste. The negroes, when freed from coercion, would acquire vices which not all the zeal of the clergy of the Church of England or of any other Church would be able to eradicate. With respect; to the system of apprenticeship, he thought it would not last one year; the negroes would in that time cast off the remaining restraints imposed upon them. It was absurd to suppose that the predial negroes would consent to remain in a state of apprenticeship when other negroes were liberated. He concluded by stating, that he would not oppose the second reading of the Bill.
Viscount St. Vincentsaid, that the principle of the Bill proceeded upon an unwarrantable distrust of the Colonial Legislatures. This pervaded every part of the Bill, and in his humble opinion, it would endanger its adoption by the colonies. On the other hand, there was nothing which implied a doubt, that the Colonial Legislatures would execute all the unamiable duties which were imposed upon them by the measure. The Bill appeared to him defective in this respect, that while it

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provided that the masters should find food, clothing-, and lodging for the negroes, it contained no provisions by which the performance of the negroes' duties to the masters could be enforced. After expressing his belief that the Colonial Assemblies would have acted upon the Resolutions of Parliament, if no attempt had been made to interfere with what they considered their peculiar privileges, the noble Earl concluded by saying, that he was so overcome by fatigue, having travelled 150 miles that day in order to be present at the discussion, that he would defer what further observations he had to make till another occasion.
Lord Cliffordthought, that as no one seemed disposed to object to the second reading of the Bill, the discussion might with propriety terminate.
Bill read a second time.