Sitting of 15 May 1832

Preamble
MINUTES. New Writ ordered. In the room of Lord TUFTON, now Earl of THANET, for Appleby.
Bills. Read a second time. On the Motion of Lord DUNCANNON, Crown Lands (Ireland.)—Committed. On the Motion of Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON, Juries (India); and Insolvent Debtors (India.)

PUBLIC FEELING—THE MINISTRY.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanpresented a Petition from the parish of St. Bride, in favour of the Reform Bill, and which also prayed that the House would withhold Supplies until that Bill was passed into a law. He took advantage of that opportunity to allude to a matter which had occurred last Sunday at St. Bride's Church. A charity sermon was to be preached there by the Bishop of Litchfield, and he was sorry to say, that he understood a great deal of disorder and much improper behaviour had occurred. As that had been imputed to the cause of Reform, he begged to say, that the imputation, so far as the parishioners (who were all Reformers) were concerned, was utterly without foundation. None of the parishioners had any share whatever in it. A great part of the rioters were boys, and a person who had been taken into custody was not only not an inhabitant of the parish, but he was not an inhabitant of the ty.
Mr. Lyttletonexpressed the greatest satisfaction at the statement just made by the hon. Alderman, in vindication of his constituents from the charge of having

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made this shameful attack on the Bishop of Litchfield. He (Mr. Lyttleton) lived in the diocese of that right rev. Prelate, and he could positively assert, that no man was more distinguished for charity, liberality, and munificence, than was the Bishop of Litchfield, who was also a model of unaffected piety. There was not an individual in the House of Lords of the right rev. Prelate's Order, who was less disposed to be guilty of political intrigue, or who valued his seat in that House less than he did for the political power it conferred. He did not believe there was a better man on the face of the earth.
Mr. Humewas anxious to state his opinion, that the course taken by the Journals, and by some persons out of doors, on this subject was extremely improper. If the persons who committed this outrage were Reformers, they had disgraced themselves, and those who wished to see the institutions of the country renovated ought not to countenance the manner in which the Bishop had been treated. At the same time he was bound to say, that some allowance ought to be made for those who possessed feelings as warm as his own on the subject of Reform, and who had not the same means that he had of expressing those feelings. He hoped that what had now been said would prevent the recurrence of such scenes in future.
Sir Edward Sugdenthought, that when the hon. member for Middlesex was speaking on the subject he ought to have gone a little further, and to have advised, not only people to abstain from such outrages, but Gentlemen from using that inflammatory language which led to these outrages. If Gentlemen would point out the means by which the spirit of the law could be violated while its letter was adhered to, of course the people would follow those means, and the fault was, if possible, greater in the one than in the other.
Mr. Harveysaid, it might be consistent with the principles and wishes of the hon. and learned Gentleman to express a hope that Gentlemen would abstain from expressing their opinions, but he also ought to go further than he had done, and call on certain other people to abstain from acting in a manner calculated to inflame the temper of the people. A great deal was required before their temper became inflamed, for this contest showed the good temper they possessed, and he had no hesitation in asserting, that but for the acts to which he had alluded, whatever might be the lan-
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guage of demagogues, however they might desire and attempt to stir up the people, they would desire and attempt in vain. It was because the people had had so much real ground for anger, that any of them had been led, in a hasty moment, to trespass over the peaceful threshold of propriety. But, while he agreed with all that hon. Members had said in expressing their hopes that such conduct should never be repeated, he must be allowed to say, that he trusted this example of what people might be driven to would not be without its effects. If the right rev. Prelate merited, as there could be no doubt he did, the very high eulogium so warmly passed on him by the hon. member for Staffordshire, it was clear that what he had done to excite the ill-will of the people must be owing, not to himself, but to his political situation. The remedy for that was, to deprive the Spiritual Peers of their political power, and to put them into that situation in which, instead of being likely to draw down on themselves popular dislike, they would be able to afford in their conduct the example of what they preached, and to exhibit to the world no other picture but that of the spotless tendency of their lives.
Mr. George Bankesthought that all the observations of the hon. member for Colchester proceeded upon the mistaken assumption, that the congregation had risen against their pastor. Now, that supposition was at utter variance with the statement of the hon. Alderman. He did not think that many persons would be found to agree with the hon. Member, that the House of Peers should be diminished in the manner he proposed. He should take that opportunity of making a remark upon another subject—he was sorry that the hon. member for Middlesex, in postponing his motion for a Call of the House, should have said that he would not postpone it after to-morrow, unless that House had some information that Earl Grey was recalled to the Government. The hon. Member ought to have abstained from making such remarks, whatever might be his private feelings on the occasion.
Mr. Gillonwas as anxious as any man for the purgation of the House of Lords, but he must say, that they disgraced the name of Reformers who had made the Church the scene of their insults to one of its dignified members.
Mr. Alderman Hughestook the opportunity which the presenting of this petition afforded him, to notice a report that had

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appeared in the papers, and that must have been furnished by some hon. Member, as the discussion took place before the doors were opened to strangers. The report he alluded to was, that on that part of the London Petition which related to the stopping of the Supplies, he had said he should vote against it. He had never said any such thing. What he had said was, that he feared a Resolution worded so generally as that which had been recommended, might bind them to refuse Supplies to any Government, and that in that manner, they might have pledged themselves to withhold Supplies from the Government that had brought in the Reform Bill.
Colonel Daviescoincided with the prayer of the petition that had just been presented. He could assure those who had thought him lukewarm in the cause of Reform, that they were utterly mistaken; for the hesitation he had felt as to some parts of the Bill proceeded from a fear, that some of the details would not carry into effect the principles of it. If the Duke of Wellington had formed a Government hostile to the Bill, he for one should have been ready to withhold Supplies from that Government till a full and efficient measure of Reform had received the Royal Assent. He had been misunderstood the other day, when he was supposed to have said that he felt strong objections to the creation of Peers in order to carry that measure. To effect such an object, he should have been ready to assent to the creation of 100 Peers, had such a creation been necessary.
Petition laid on the Table, and to be printed.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanthen presented a Petition from the town of Liverpool, which he had been honoured with through one of its Members, and which prayed, that whatever new Government might be formed, the House would refuse Supplies, not only till the Government had given a pledge to bring in a measure of Reform as extensive in every respect as that of Earl Grey's, but till that pledge had been fully redeemed.
Mr. Ewartexpressed his obligations to the hon. Alderman for having presented this petition, and then declared his cordial concurrence with it. He begged to inform the House that it had been agreed to at the largest Reform Meeting ever held at Liverpool. The demand for Reform was not recent in that town. The first time he had stood a candidate there, he had been called on to pledge himself to advocate an
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extensive measure of Reform. The inhabitants of Liverpool never thought the franchise of their own town sufficiently extensive, and he expressed his opinion that, with a properly extended franchise, there would be a constituency of between 18,000 and 20,000 respectable voters.
Mr. Humesaid, that every one was desirous that the agitation into which the country had been thrown should cease as speedily as possible, and, under that feeling he had stated, that if, when they met this day, he found such circumstances to exist as would ensure the success of the Reform Bill, he should not say one word that could possibly add to the already existing agitation. He had in his possession fourteen petitions, that had been agreed to at different meetings held within three hours after the news of the proceedings unfavourable to Reform had reached them. He should, with the view he had mentioned, withhold these petitions this day, and, the more especially as a report was abroad that Earl Grey had seen his Majesty. If that was true, he had some hope that a conciliation would take place, and he, therefore, suggested to hon. Members who, like himself, had petitions in favour of Reform, and for withholding Supplies, not to present them at present, in order not to increase the agitation which he believed it would be found had already produced its effect.
Sir Edward Sugdendid not know whether the hon. member for Middlesex was to be considered the organ of the Government ["No," from Mr. Hume] which was now about to resume its place; but it was impossible to avoid remarking the tone of moderation which the hon. Member now assumed. When he thought he had every thing his own way, he could condescend to be amiable and kind; he would not embarrass the Government—he would not have his Majesty's name lightly treated—but when the question seemed likely to be decided the other way, how changed was his language. He was not one of those who found fault with the strong expression of strong feeling, and, therefore, he did not quarrel with it when employed by those who desired to support his Majesty's present Government; but he must say, that in the debates that had recently taken place, there had been a violence of deportment among some of the Members of that House, and some, too, of those who had filled seats in his Majesty's councils, which he thought did not become such persons. While they

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still enjoyed a share of his Majesty's favour, whilst his Majesty continued to be guided by Whig advisers, he was spoken of with every possible tenderness and respect, and they were his very loyal subjects; but he lost all their favour if he withdrew his countenance from them for a moment.
Mr. Humeshould be sorry, on this occasion, to introduce anything with which his Majesty's name was connected. In what he had observed he only meant to say, that if there was an alteration in the Ministry, he was most anxious to calm that agitation which all knew to exist, and which the hon. and learned Gentleman seemed so much to desire should continue.
Mr. Baringrose to state, which he intended to have done at an earlier period, that the communications with the Duke of Wellington for the formation of a new Administration were entirely at an end. After having made that statement, he had no other observations to offer, but to express his ardent and sincere hope, that the state of things, to the administration of which the Government were about to return, would terminate in some arrangement for the benefit and for the peace of the country. Whether it was or not desirable for the Members to forbear further discussions till his Majesty's Government were prepared to make their communications to that House, he would not undertake to determine, nor would he say whether the recent nature of what had passed would enable them to do so at once; but he was sure the House would see how much any arrangements would be impeded by the continuance of those warm discussions. He wished to take that opportunity of correcting a misapprehension which an hon. Gentleman had last night fallen into, when he said that it was understood the Duke of Wellington had accepted office. He had not done so. Matters had not come to that point. He had only entered into communication with his Majesty as to certain measures that might be necessary under the peculiar circumstances of the moment.
Lord Althorpsaid, Sir, had not the hon. Gentleman anticipated me, it was my intention, as soon as I had taken my seat, to rise for the purpose of informing the House, that Earl Grey has received a communication from his Majesty this day, and, therefore, I intend to suggest to the House the propriety of adjourning over to-morrow, and I shall presently take an opportunity of moving that this House at its rising do adjourn over to-morrow. I entirely concur
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with what the hon. Gentleman has stated that it will be most desirable, under the present circumstances of the country, that hon. Gentlemen should abstain from continuing discussions, which, if they have any effect at all, will not have that of allaying the feelings of excitement that now exist.
Lord Porchesterwished to be allowed to say, that what a noble relative of his had said in the other House of Parliament had been misapprehended. He had the authority of his noble relative for stating, that his noble relative had never said that a Government had been formed—the words he had used were, that the Government was in the act of formation.
Petition to be printed.

OFFICERS OF THE GOVERNMENT—EXPLANATION.
Lord Althorp moved that this House at its rising do adjourn to Thursday next.
Mr. Humewished, before the vote for the adjournment was agreed to, to take that opportunity of throwing out a suggestion of his own, which arose from the interruption they had already experienced to the attainment of their wishes, and from the excitement that had in consequence taken place. He trusted that whatever arrangement was now made would be a final arrangement, so that the people might be satisfied that this measure would be carried into effect. He said this, for he had for months been apprehensive of that which had now taken place, from the circumstance of individuals remaining in office who, he trusted, would now no longer be allowed to remain in situations where they might exert an influence hostile to this measure. He threw out this suggestion only as a private individual; and he did so not only for the sake of the honour of the Administration, but for the peace of the country.
Mr. Tennisonsaid, he could have wished that his hon. friend (the member for Middlesex) had abstained from the observations he had just made. He had understood his hon. friend in particular to recommend that every thing should be avoided likely to excite irritation, yet he now touched on topics which must create unpleasant feelings in a high quarter. Nothing could be so painful to him, and, also, he was confident to his noble and right hon. friend, near him, and to the country, as that the event which had just been announced should be considered as placing his majesty in a state of submission and subjection to any party. He

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trusted that, before a few days had elapsed, those who had regretted that the advice tendered to him by the Government for an extensive creation of Peers had not been adopted by the King would be grateful to his Majesty for having declined to administer such a shock to the Constitution, for a shock it would undoubtedly have been. Although he as a thorough Reformer would not have hesitated to give that advice to the King had he been a Cabinet Minister, in case no other means of effecting an extensive Reform offered themselves; yet, if it should turn out that his Majesty, who was undoubtedly bound to ascertain that no other means did exist before he resorted to such a course, had discovered those means, and that without any shock to the institutions of the country, an extensive and perhaps a more beneficial and popular Reform would be the result of such modifications as might now be introduced, he repeated that the country, and his Majesty's Ministers amongst the rest, would be deeply grateful to him for the sound discretion with which he had rejected their counsel. No man could doubt the paternal wishes of his Majesty to do all in his power to meet the wishes of the people, but, if possible, without doing any violence by means of his prerogative to the institutions of the country, and he was, therefore, pained lest the observations of his hon. friend (Mr. Hume), intimating a hope that Peers might still be created, and that other measures might be taken, should give that impression that the Reformers were now acting as if they had obtained a victory over the opinions and feelings of the King.
Mr. Ruthvenwas rejoiced at the communication that had been made, tending as he thought it must do, to allay the agitation into which the public mind had been thrown.
Colonel Sibthorptrusted there would be no further discussion at present on either side of the House.
Mr. Hodgesexpressed a similar wish, and contented himself with declaring his gratification at what he had just heard.
Sir Henry Hardingebegged to call the attention of the hon. and learned member for Calne to a paragraph in The Times of this morning. The hon. and learned Member, in his speech last night, had called him (Sir Henry Hardinge) gallant friend—a courtesy which he had reciprocated. He wished now to ask the hon. and learned Member whether the expressions he had made use of were those which were attri-
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buted to him in The Times. The words were these:—"The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that the use of swaggering expressions in that place was a very equivocal proof of spirit as well as of sense. "That sentence seemed to be an attack upon him (Sir H. Hardinge). He had, at the time it was uttered, a different impression of it; and therefore it was, that now, in the most courteous manner, he requested to know from the hon. and learned Gentleman whether he had applied those words to him?
Mr. Macaulaythought it was almost unnecessary for him to say a word on the subject, as he spoke in the presence of those who had heard him make use of the expression. He did not intend to use them in an offensive manner to the right hon. Gentleman; and to have used them in the manner which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose would have been absurd indeed. He had, seeing that the right hon. Gentleman was much excited, employed these expressions with a view to calm him; and had said, that he (Mr. Macaulay) was not the man to swagger there, and that to swagger there was but an equivocal proof of spirit and sense.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that certainly that was the sense in which he had understood the hon. and learned Member.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that the explanation of the hon. and learned Member was perfectly satisfactory to him, and he hoped that the House would not think he had done wrong in soliciting it. With regard to any supposed warmth, he must be allowed to say that considering the relation in which he stood, and had stood for the last twenty or twenty-five years, towards the noble Duke, whom Englishmen of every party must reverence, some latitude might fairly be allowed. It was very far from his intention, in vindicating the noble Duke, by any warmth he showed, to abridge the freedom of discussion; and that noble Duke was the last man who would wish that any attempts of his friends should interfere with that freedom. When, however, an insult was hypothetically offered, during the absence of the party insulted, it was natural that his friends who were present should evince some warmth; he, therefore, hoped to stand excused, as it certainly had not been his intention to take any tone in the debate that was unpleasant.
Motion agreed to.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord DURHAM, from Stirling, in favour of Parliamentary Reform.—By the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, from Relclare, and other Places in Ireland, in favour of the Ministerial Plan of Education (Ireland.)

MINISTERIAL PLAN OF EDUCATION (IRELAND).
The Bishop of Kilmore presented a Petition from the clergy of his diocese, against the National Education System in Ireland.
Lord Kingwas convinced, that after the present week, they would hear no more of these anti-national education petitions, as they were part of a conspiracy, based in political fraud and delusion, against Earl

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Grey's Administration; the main plot of which, he was happy to say, had wholly failed. The Pharisaic originators of those petitions had not stopped at what he supposed he must call pious frauds, in order to array the best feelings of the religious portion of the community against the present Government. They told the people, that the main object of Ministers in introducing the national education system into Ireland was, to "deprive the Protestant children of their right to peruse the Sacred Volume," though they well knew that, so far from that being the fact, not less than two days each week were wholly devoted to scriptural instruction and unrestricted scriptural reading.
The Earl of Rodendenied that the opposition of the clergy, and other well-meaning individuals, to the Irish national education system had any political origin. There was nothing like a plot against the Government, and the petitions would, he believed, be yet more numerous than at present, consequent upon a conviction, sanctioned by God's word, that that system was Anti-Christian in principle, inasmuch as it went to mutilate the Holy Volume. The opposition solely arose from a feeling on the part of the people of England against what they considered an unscriptural and unchristian system of education.
Lord Kingbelieved, that there was something political in the opposition, and that it did not arise altogether from such worthy motives as the noble Earl set up, on behalf of all the petitioners who came before the House. But, some how or other, it was a curious phenomenon in the proceedings of the "saints," that though their spiritual visions were, it must be presumed, ever fixed upon the "kingdom come," they seemed also to have an eye upon this "sublunary world below." In opposing, for instance, what the noble Earl designated the Anti-Christian education system of the Whigs, they contrived to make the opposition auxiliary—impotently so, he was happy to find—to the restoration of the Tories.
The Earl of Winchilseaagreed with his noble friend (the Earl of Roden), when he stated that these petitions had not originated in political feeling. He denied, too, that the House would hear no more of these petitions after this week. A feeling upon this question, of a nature far more powerful than that which prevailed upon the Catholic Question, would be excited throughout the country. It was the duty of a Christian Legislature, in a Christian
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country, to connect that religion which they believed to be the pure religion with the education of the people. In the attempt, therefore, to bring that Legislature to a sense of their sacred duty, there was nothing of political hostility—nothing of a worldly character; and, for one, he never would cease from bringing the question in its true light before the people of England, and before that House. As for the unbecoming sneer of the noble Baron, respecting the views and feelings of those he was pleased to style "saints," he would only observe, that that noble Baron never possessed, and was incapable of appreciating the feelings of such persons. That noble Baron never spoke upon any sacred subject, except in such a tone as must excite the scorn and indignation of every Christian man. The noble Earl, with great energy, said he would repeat the words—the scorn and indignation of every Christian man.
Lord Kingsaid, the noble Earl had no right to assume, that because he had over and over denounced the abuses of the Church Establishment and the tithe system, that he was, therefore, unmindful or indifferent to the uses of religion. But this was ever the way with the monopolists of religion: venture to question the immaculate perfection of the tithe system, or the holding of Church pluralities, or the advantages of overpaying a Bishop for doing little, while the working clergy hardly obtained the means of subsistence, and, as a matter of course, you are denounced as the enemy of every thing sacred and orthodox. He defied the noble Earl to cite a single expression of his whole life at all reflecting upon religion, apart from its abuses.
Petition laid on the Table.

MINISTERIAL APPOINTMENTS.
Earl Grey: As there is no other important business before your Lordships, I move that this House do adjourn over till Thursday. I do so in consequence of a communication which I have this day had from his Majesty.
Lord Kenyonwished to know whether the House and the public were to understand from the noble Earl's declaration, that he and his colleagues were to be restored to their official stations?
Earl Greywas sure that the House would see, that it would be indiscreet in him to offer any further explanation, under the circumstances in which he then stood. He had stated that he had had a communication from his Majesty: of course their Lordships understood that that communica-

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tion could only refer to the affairs of the State, so far as they were affected by the resignation of himself and his colleagues. It had, besides, been made to him so recently, that it would be impossible to afford further information, or to say more than this, that nothing decisive had ensued, and that it was not in his power to state what it was plain the noble Baron was so anxious to extort—namely, that it was decided that the present Government should retain office. He was not then authorized to state more, and therefore proposed that they should adjourn over to-morrow, in order to afford time for the completion of some arrangements.
Lord Kenyonwas quite satisfied with the noble Earl's second statement, and felt it would be unreasonable, in the present stage of the proceedings, to press him further.
Earl Greywas persuaded that his first explanation was to the full as explicit as his second—both amounting only to this—that he had had a communication from his Majesty, which had as yet led to no decided consequences.
The Lord Chancellorrose to prevent any misunderstanding on the part of the noble Baron (Kenyon) as to there being any difference between his noble friend's first and second explanations, and to prevent a repetition of such irregular questions as that put by him to his noble friend. It was highly irregular to ask a Minister the precise character of any confidential communication which he might have had from his Sovereign; and though his noble friends and colleagues had tendered a resignation of their respective offices to his Majesty, which his Majesty had been graciously pleased to accept, still he stood there as a servant of the Crown, to whom all communications from the Crown must necessarily be confidential. His noble friend, therefore, was not at liberty to state more than the fact that he had had a communication from his Majesty; and he was at a loss to know by what subtilty of interpretation the noble Baron could persuade himself that he had obtained more information from the second explanation of his noble friend than from the first. He had listened attentively to both, and could state, that if he knew no more of the communication than it was fair to presume the noble Baron and the House generally knew, he should not have been better acquainted with its purport by the second statement than by the first statement of his noble friend; and he was convinced that the first
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simple declaration, that he had had a communication from the Crown, derived no increase of strength or explicitness from the second. As his noble friend had stated, every noble Lord must have understood the communication to refer to the state of public affairs. Further than this it would be improper to state—that it had led to no positive consequences, and might have no consequences.
The Marquis of Salisburydiffered from the noble and learned Lord as to the perfect identity of the noble Earl's two statements. This important fact was elicited from the second explanation, which the first by no means imported—namely, that it was by no means a decided consequence of the King's communication that the noble Earl and his colleagues would be restored to office.
Motion agreed to, and House adjourned to Thursday.