Sitting of 9 May 1832

MINUTES.
Bills brought in, and read first and second time.—Regenes Park Acts Amendment; Labourers Employment.
Petitions presented. By Sir HUGH STEWART, from the County of Tyrone, for Re-enacting the Laws Regulating the Importation of Flax Seed into Ireland.—By the Marquis of CHANDOS, from the Association for Promoting Rational Humanity towards the Animal Creation, to prevent Cruelty to Animals; from Edinburgh and Leith, against the Adulteration of Coffee with Chicoree; from Olney, for a Speedy Consideration of the Poor Laws; from Port Glasgow, for Relief in the Shipping Interests;
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and from Galway, for Preserving the Peculiar Franchise of that Town; also, for the Repeal of the Stamp-duties on the Admission of Freemen to Corporations.—By Sir GEORGE WARRENDER, from H. Stewart, Chairman of a Meeting of the Commissioners of Supply for the County of Lanark, against the Hypothee (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. WILES, from the Members of a Friendly Society, in favour of the Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill.—By Sir EDWARD SUGDEN, from the Attornies of Wilts, against the General Register Bill.—By Mr. ROBERT VERNON SMITH, from Northampton, in favour of the Registration of Births Bill.—By Sir HUGH STEWART, from Camus-juxta, Mourne, and other Places;—by Earl JERMYN, from Ashley, and eleven other Places—against the Ministerial Plan of Education (Ireland).—By the Earl of BELFAST, from the Grand Jury at Carrickfergus, to enable Grand Juries to put up Gates and levy Tolls on such Roads as they may think proper.—By Mr. BRISCOE, from Chowbeat, Tyldesley, and Burnley,—in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill; from Kingston-upon-Thames and Hereford,—for the Abolition of the Punishment of Death for Crimes against Property;—and by Mr. SPRING RICE, from Tullamore,—for the same.

RESIGNATION OF MINISTERS.
Lord Althorp said: I feel it to be my duty to state to the House that, in consequence of what occurred in another place on Monday last, it appeared to his Majesty's Government that it would be quite impossible to carry the Reform Bill in such a manner as they deemed it their duty to carry it in, or without such alterations as would render it inefficient, and inconsistent with the pledges they had given for carrying it forward. Under these circumstances, there remained for them only this alternative—to tender their resignation to his Majesty, or to advise his Majesty to take such measures as would enable them to carry the Reform Bill efficiently, and, in case that advice should not be taken, then to tender their resignations. The latter course we adopted, and I have now to state to the House that we did tender advice such as I have mentioned, which, not being received, we then tendered our resignations, and that his Majesty was graciously pleased to receive them. At present, therefore, we only hold office until our successors are appointed. It is impossible for me, in making this statement, not to express for myself, and I may confidently speak, also, for my colleagues, our sense of the flattering kindness and condescension with which we have been treated by his Majesty ever since we came into office. For myself, I can only say, that the manner in which I have ever been treated by his Majesty has been such as to ensure my warm gratitude to him so long as I shall live. This is all I feel it necessary to state at present, and, I believe, the best mode in which I can now proceed is, to move that the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Scotch Reform Bill be read, for the

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purpose of postponing it. The noble Lord sat down amidst long-continued cheering.
Lord Ebringtonthen rose and said, that he could not refrain, after the confidence which had been reposed by the House in the noble Lord and his colleagues, from expressing the deep regret he felt at the announcement which had then been made, as well as at the failure of the measure which had been carried through that House by so great a majority. Under the circumstances, he should feel it his duty, though he wished the task had fallen upon one better qualified than himself—to give notice that, to-morrow, he would move an Address to his Majesty on the present state of public affairs. Whatever might be the opinions entertained by hon. Members, he was sure that every one who had a seat in that House would feel it his duty to attend; and, in order to that end, he would follow up his first notice with another, viz. that he would move that, the House be called over.
Mr. Gore Langtonsaid, that he must express his deep regret at the defeat of the measure of Reform in the manner in which it had been accomplished, for he was sure that nothing short of the measure which had passed that House would satisfy the country. He trusted that the House would stand by the Bill and not support any Government which was not prepared to carry that Measure, or one equally efficient, into full effect.
Mr. Humesaid, that it was impossible he could abstain from expressing his opinion on the event that had occurred, and on the course which had been pursued by his Majesty's Ministers. He felt hound, in justice, to say, that the noble Lord and his colleagues, placed in the position they had been by the other House, had, as men of honour, no other course left to them to pursue, except the one which they had taken; and, he would further say, that they had acted with honour to themselves, not only in the opinion of that House, but he was also sure in that of the nation; and he must also emphatically state, that, to have the expectations of an united people, in which they were led on from day to day, put an end to, and frustrated in the manner they had been by the other House, was a subject of the deepest regret. He, as a sincere Reformer, could not but deeply deplore that the course of a measure by which the popular expectations seemed
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likely, after long delay and disappointment, to be realized, should have been interrupted and perverted. He did anticipate that the noble Earl who had introduced a measure so consonant to the general wishes and general interest, would have been able, with the support and countenance under which he introduced it, to carry it to a happy and prosperous conclusion. He should await, with anxiety, the result of the Motion of the noble Lord to-morrow. He would again express his approbation of the conduct of Ministers, and his regret at what had occurred; and he hoped and trusted that, every man who had a seat in that House would attend, and be ready to give that opinion firmly and manfully, which the dignity of the House and the peace of the country required.
Lord Althorpsaid, that his noble friend (the member for Devon) had given a notice which he would wish a few moments' time to consider. He would submit, that, in the present state of affairs, and in the present crisis, any course which might throw embarrassment in the way of the formation of a new Administration, ought not to be taken; and he would, therefore, wish that his noble friend would for a short time postpone his notice.
Sir John Newportdiffered from the noble Lord who had just sat down, and earnestly entreated his noble friend, the member for Devonshire, not to withdraw his notice. In times like these it was proper it should be known that what that House had once sanctioned by a majority of votes—what the people believed to be necessary to the well-being of the country—that House was determined to obtain. To the propriety, then, of that part of the noble Lord's notice which related to a motion for an Address to his Majesty, he most heartily assented, but the other part of the noble Lord's notice he thought impracticable; it was impossible that a call of the House could take place at so early a period as to-morrow. Many Members were not within reach of a summons to attend, and, therefore, it would be hard to inflict upon them the penalties which absence would subject them to. He thought, therefore, that the noble Lord should withdraw that part of his notice; but, in the Motion for the Address, he trusted he would persevere. He was sure that every hon. Member within reach would attend freely and honestly to express his opinions upon such an occasion. He knew

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of no circumstances under which such a step was rendered so imperatively necessary. He thought it was proper that the sense of the House should be known before a new Administration was formed.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, that, he felt it his duty to express his ardent desire that the noble member for Devon would persist in his intention. He felt that, if in the present crisis they were not firm—if they were false to their constituents and their own recorded votes—if they did not convey to the Throne the knowledge that they felt the greatest alarm at the formation of any administration which was not based upon the principle of carrying Reform in Parliament, they would expose the country to the risk of the heaviest calamities. He was sure, however, that the House would do its duty, and then he was also sure that the country, though they heard with regret the misfortune that had befallen, would also hear it with calmness. But if the House stood not where it ought tostand—in the front of the battle—then scenes would occur which he shuddered to contemplate. It was idle to suppose that, if the House of Commons did not do their duty—if its Members were such cravens as to allow a Government friendly to the people, and honest in their friendship, to be scattered and put out, in consequence of the proceedings of a majority of the other House of Parliament, they would not be considered, and justly considered, by the nation, as base deserters of their duty. Reform was safe if they did their duty; but if they did not they would be responsible for the scenes which might occur, and which, he was afraid, would be of a nature to appal the stoutest heart.
Mr. O'Connellwould trespass upon the attention of the House but for one moment. Humble individual as he was, he could not abstain from expressing his admiration of the course which Government had pursued. They had acted wisely and well. His hon. friend the member for Middlesex had talked of the expectations of the people of England being frustrated—that he took to be impossible. The people of England had spoken emphatically from one end of the country to the other, and, wherever art opportunity of returning a Reformer occurred, the result proved what were their sentiments on the question of Reform. The only question now was, whether the people would be true to themselves, or whether they would
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suffer an intriguing faction to usurp their rights—the nominees of Peers to fill the places of their real Representatives—the combination of a party to prevent the restoration of their constitutional rights and privileges? The people of England, if true to themselves, would insist upon Reform—the people of Scotland would manfully insist upon it—and they never yet insisted upon having any thing which they did not obtain. With their good broad swords they asserted, maintained, and made national, the creed and the religious form of worship which they loved; with like success, but without the broad sword, he hoped the people of Scotland would now insist upon this Reform of their Representation. He could safely answer for it that the people of Ireland—the universal people of Ireland—would not shrink from the part which belonged to them is demanding, and persisting it the demand for Reform. He hoped the noble Lord would persevere in the motion of which be had given notice. He hoped, too, that this circumstance would mark the debate of the House upon that Motion to-morrow—that no man who voted for Reform would, now that a new Ministry was to be formed, shrink from expressing his honest and unbiassed opinion of the upright and independent conduct of the present Government. He had too high an opinion of the hon. Gentlemen who had voted for that measure to suppose that a skulker or a recreant would be found among them. Let their opinion, then, firmly, but respectfully, reach the Throne; and, in any Address which they might vote, let them inform his Majesty that his truly loyal subjects—those who placed his illustrious family on the Throne of these islands—were the most determined to see the rights of his people restored.
Mr. Jameswished to know from the noble Lord, whether he was then prepared or would be prepared to-morrow to explain the specific grounds, or immediate causes, which led to the resignation of himself and his colleagues?
Lord Althorpdid not feel himself at liberty to state more than he had stated—namely, that Ministers, having proffered their Sovereign an advice which was not adopted, they tendered a resignation of their offices, which was accepted.
Mr. Baringhad intended not to express his sentiments on the present occasion, reserving himself till the noble Lord's

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Motion of to-morrow, but he felt himself compelled to say a few words in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. Members who had just addressed the House. Those hon. Members told them to beware of the perils and agitation which were likely to arise throughout the country from the announcement of the noble Lord opposite; but he would take leave to suggest the propriety of their not being themselves the creators of the perils and agitation which they would fain deprecate. He would not, he repeated, anticipate the discussion of to-morrow further than to observe, that he hoped and expected that the House would entertain that discussion in a tone harmonious with the feelings of the sound and sensible portion of the community—that is, that, while it asserted its own opinions with due regard to its own dignity, it would not be neglectful of what was due to the opinions of the other branch of the Legislature. If they were warned against proving themselves cravens to the public, he would warn them against proving themselves bullies towards the House of Lords. But of this more to-morrow. He then rose for the purpose of suggesting to the noble Lord, whether he was not bound, by usage, to explain the grounds or nature of the advice the non-reception of which by his Majesty had led to the dissolution of Earl Grey's Administration. It was not enough to state that his having tendered an advice which was not adopted led to his resignation; he was bound to state the character of that advice, and the grounds on which it was offered and rejected. He was old enough to remember, that this was the course pursued by Earl Grey himself in 1807, on his resignation of office. On that occasion that noble Earl entered into a very minute statement of all the proceedings connected with his resignation. With regard to the present resignation, they were all completely in the dark as to its causes, save what reached them in the way of public rumour, which in itself was more than usually vague—indeed amounted to nothing more than that his Majesty's advisers thought it fit to tender an advice to the King, which his Majesty did not think it fitting to adopt, and that as a consequence their resignation was tendered and accepted. It was important that they should clearly understand why it was that Ministers had resigned, the rather, as amid the cheers of one side
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of the House, there might be discerned something like a censure on his Majesty for having accepted their resignation. ["No, no."] He was sensible of the impropriety of that House discussing questions involving the personal acts of the Sovereign, but he appealed to them, whether the announcement of the fact of resignation was not accompanied by a sort of complaint ["no, no,"]—at least a statement—which, in the absence of information, left them to believe that the King had rejected an advice which his advisers thought he ought to have adopted. Now, what he and those on the Opposition side of the House wanted to learn from the noble Lord was, the specific character of that advice, and of the grounds on which it was proffered and rejected. He took it for granted, when he saw hon. Members opposite so prompt and zealous in their approval of the conduct of the noble Lord and his colleagues, that they at least were possessed of this information—that they were acquainted with the nature of the advice, and as a consequence knew whether it amounted to an imperative demand for the creation of some sixty or seventy Peers, for the purpose of carrying the Reform Bill, or otherwise. It was important, if such was the case, that the House at large should be made acquainted with the particulars—that it should know whether the advice tendered to the King was not what he could not hesitate to call the most outrageous and unconstitutional which it was possible for Ministers to give. If so, he would then only say, that he very much mistook the feelings of the people of England if a very large majority of them would not be imbued with a strong feeling of gratitude towards his Majesty for so promptly accepting the resignation of those who tendered him such an advice. The Motion for to-morrow, however, of the noble member for Devon would afford them a more convenient occasion for discussing the goodness or badness, in a constitutional sense, of the advice which his Majesty had rejected: at present he would merely urge the necessity of the House being made fully acquainted with all the particulars.
Colonel Daviesagreed with Mr. Baring—with whom, however, he differed as to the merits of the Reform Bill itself—that it was highly expedient that the House should be put in full possession of every information connected with the act which

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had led to the resignation of Lord Althorp and his colleagues—the more so, as it had always been understood that the King had lent them, in their plan of Reform, a most cordial support. As it was, they were completely in the dark as to this most important fact; and were left to guess, among several rumoured versions of the true facts of the case, that which was most probable. It was said by some that Earl Grey had advised the creation of fifty or seventy Peers, according to others one hundred, but that his Majesty objected to the amount. According to other versions, his Majesty did not object to a definite number, but to entrusting the noble Earl with a carte blanche power of creating as many as circumstances might require, and that the noble Earl being refused this unlimited power, resigned. Now, if this carte blanche power was the advice given by Earl Grey to the King, he would not hesitate to declare that it was an advice, or rather demand, which his Majesty ought not to have complied with, and which he was, therefore, right in peremptorily rejecting. It was highly important, he repeated, that the real facts should be made public, in order that it might be clearly seen where the blame lay.
Sir Robert Peeldid not rise to in any wise anticipate the discussion of to-morrow, but merely to express his concurrence with Mr. Baring and Colonel Davies, that it was not only essential to that discussion, but conformable with the uniform usages of the House, that it should be put in full information of the distinct causes which had led to the resignation of Earl Grey's Government. He would not then press Lord Althorp to state what those causes were—the less so, as he was confident the noble Lord would himself, on reflection, see, that in affording the information, he would only be pursuing the usual course of his predecessors under similar circumstances—but would merely suggest to him the propriety of applying to his Majesty for permission to explain in detail the proceedings and their causes which had led to his resignation. This permission it was necessary he should obtain, as otherwise his explanation would be a violation of what was due to his Sovereign, there being evidently no acts more truly personal with respect to the Sovereign than those of the appointment or acceptance of the resignation of his Ministers. He hoped, therefore, the noble Lord would see the expediency
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of his explaining to Parliament and the public the real causes of his resignation.
Mr. Jamesdiffered from Messrs. Baring and Davies as to the character of the advice to the King to create Peers in order to carry the Reform Bill. He, so far from deeming it unwise and unconstitutional, thought the best advice which the Sovereign could receive from his Ministers would be for an unlimited creation of Peers for so nationally beneficial a purpose.
Mr. Duncombetrusted that Lord Ebrington would persevere in his Motion for a call of the House to-morrow, as, besides that there were enough of Members in town to answer the call, it was highly expedient that the people should know who were the waverers, and who were their honest and uncompromising Representatives, which would be evident by comparing a list of those who would vote for the noble Lord's Motion, and those who had with so triumph anta majority, recorded their confidence in Ministers on the former defeat of the Bill by the House of Lords. He did not think that Lord Althorp was called upon to explain more fully the procceedings connected with his resignation than he had done. It was enough for the country to know, that in consequence of what had taken place in the other House of Parliament on Monday last, the noble Lord and his colleagues deemed it their duty to resign. ["No, no."] Well, that in consequence of the adverse vote of their Lordships, that Ministers felt it right to give their advice to their Sovereign to take such steps as would secure the national bill against mutilation, and that his Majesty not acting on that advice, they had no alternative between resigning, or being auxiliaries in the work of slaughter. It was enough for the country to know that they had most honourably preferred the former course; and he trusted, in gratitude, and consistency, and justice, the people would not cease from constitutional agitation, till the power to carry the great measure of national purification into effect was restored to the hands of those who had the magnanimity to stand or fall by it, from the grasp of those who had been enabled—he trusted temporarily—to wrest it from them by means of the grossest hypocrisy and treachery.
Lord Althorp: I wish particularly to say, that, in what I stated to the House at first, I most carefully avoided throwing

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any blame on any one, and especially blame of the nature insinuated by the right hon. Baronet. I hope I so expressed myself as to guard myself from the possibility of any misconstruction. With respect to what the right hon. Baronet has said with regard to further explanations, I can only observe, that I do not feel myself authorized at present to say more than I have said. I wish it to be understood that I do not pledge myself that I shall make any further statement at any future time, but that at present I have stated all I am at present authorized to state. The hon. member for Thetford has stated the case of 1807 as an example for the present occasion. I was then a Member of this House, and I remember that what he states as then taking place is quite true. The noble Earl did make a statement of considerable length as to the causes of the resignation of himself and his colleagues, but the hon. Member will recollect that there were then circumstances which called for a full explanation, but to which there is nothing analogous in the present case. The reports which were then in existence varied much from each other. There were then imputations on the character and conduct of the Ministers, and it was necessary for them to obtain from his Majesty permission to make the statement. Such circumstances do not at present exist, and there is not in the case now, so much of complexity as on that occasion, and, therefore, I do not think myself called on to make a more detailed statement than I have done.
Mr. Macaulay: I should have said nothing, Sir, upon this subject, but for the remarks which have fallen from the hon. member for Thetford; but, in the first place, I wish to confirm my noble friend in his statement, that, in all the observations he made, there was not one single syllable that, in the slightest degree, could be construed as disrespectful to his Majesty; and, as we are on the eve of a discussion of importance, and which is likely to produce considerable agitation in the country, I protest, in the name of every Member of this House, against that unconstitutional doctrine—that doctrine so subversive of the freedom of debate—that the Members of this House, who speak with approbation of the conduct of the Ministers, or who say that they regret that the advice given by the Ministers was not adopted and acted upon, shall be construed to have spoken inconsistently with that affection
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which we all feel for the person, the honour, and the office, of our Sovereign. I claim the freedom of speech for myself and for all the Members of this House collectively—that freedom of speech which you, Sir, on the first day of the meeting of this Parliament, claimed for us from the King; and I demand that any remarks we may make on the change of Administration shall not he construed into the expression of any doubt that our Sovereign, in all the conduct he has pursued, has been actuated by any other motive than the most sincere and single desire to promote the good of his people. I shall now, Sir, say no more, than to entreat my noble friend to persevere in the Motion of which he has given notice.
Mr. Baringdid not feel that what had fallen from him at all warranted the comment of Mr. Macaulay.
Lord Miltonfelt himself bound to protest against the doctrine of Sir Robert Peel, that the acceptance of a Minister's resignation, being a personal act of the Sovereign, could not be discussed in Parliament without the express permission of the King, except at the hazard of violating the prerogative. If the appointment or the resignation of a Minister were a personal act of this nature, there was an end to everything like the responsibility of Ministers to the Legislature. The Constitutional doctrine was, that the Ministers were responsible for every act of the Crown.
Sir Robert Peeldid not mean to say, that the individual accepting office was not responsible to Parliament for his official conduct; but merely that the original act of either appointing or dismissing a Minister was a personal act of the Sovereign, which could not he discussed in detail without his permission.
Mr. Huntwas sure that there could be but one opinion as to the necessity of the ex-Ministers explaining fully every transaction connected with their exit from office. If Lord Grey was never promised the power to create Peers to carry the Reform Bill, it followed that he and his colleagues had for the last twelve months been imposing the grossest delusion upon the people. It was right that this important fact should be satisfactorily determined, and whether the King had at any time consented to perform what he had yesterday refused.
Lord Ebringtonfelt himself compelled

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to persevere in his notice. Under ordinary circumstances he should have felt great alacrity in adopting the suggestion of his noble friend, but, under the extraordinary relations in which that House stood with respect to the Reform Bill and the country, he felt he should be abandoning his duty did he delay his Motion a single hour. It was important in such a national crisis, that the people should know who were their honest and consistent Representatives, and who had proved recreants from their duty. For the same reasons he would persevere in his Motion for a call of the House, so as to guard against backsliders and time-watchers.
Order of the Day read, and measure postponed accordingly.
Also ordered, on the Motion of Lord Ebrington, that the House be called over on the next day.

PRESENTATION OF PETITIONS.
Sir Robert Peelmoved, in pursuance of the notice which he had given previous to the recess, for the appointment of a Committee to frame some regulations to facilitate the presentation of public petitions. He said, that he should suggest that something like the appointment of a Standing Committee should be resolved on, before whom any Member should be at liberty to lay whatever petitions he might be intrusted with; and that this Committee should classify such petitions, setting forth their general prayer, and stating the number of signatures attached to each. He would not, however, propose to take away the right, which every Member at present possessed, of presenting petitions to the whole House, and expressing his opinions on the subject; but he thought it would be advisable to limit each Member to one speech.
Lord Althorpthought some regulation on this subject was necessary, and anticipated that the right hon. Baronet's proposition would be beneficial.

MINUTES.
Bills read a third time.—Friendly Societies, and Barbadoes Provisions.
Petitions presented. By Lord DURHAM, from Durham, for the Abolition of Slavery; and from Yeovil and Perth, in favour of Reform.—By Earl Grey, from Donamaine, for the Abolition of Tithes Ireland.

RESIGNATION OF MINISTERS.
Earl Greypresented Petitions against the existing system of Tithes in Ireland, from Doncaster, Calne, Dumfries, Wigton. He then proceeded, to the following effect:—And now, my Lords, after the proceedings of Monday last, and after the result of that night's debate and decision, your Lordships are probably prepared for the information which I feel it to be my duty to communicate to you. The result of that debate and decision certainly reduced me, in conjunction with my colleagues, to the alternative of either immediately withdrawing ourselves from the service of his Majesty, or of tendering to his Majesty our advice to take such means as appeared to us to be justified by the necessity of the case to ensure the success of the Reform Bill; and, in the event of that advice

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not being received, humbly and respectfully to tender our resignation to his Majesty. The last alternative was that which, after much consideration, we were induced to adopt. We offered to his Majesty the advice which we thought it our duty, under the circumstances of the times, to offer: the alternative was accepted by his Majesty, and he was graciously pleased to accept our resignation; at the same time honouring us with the fullest approbation of our services during the period that we have been in his Majesty's Councils, during which period we have uniformly experienced from his Majesty a support and confidence for which I shall always feel most deeply grateful. My Lords, these are the circumstances under which we now stand. Having tendered to his Majesty our resignations, and those resignations having been accepted, and holding office, therefore, only until our successors are appointed, your Lordships will, I am sure, see the propriety of our not entering into the consideration of any public business on which it is probable a difference of opinion may prevail. Such being the case, it is not my intention to propose to-morrow that we go on with the consideration of the Reform Bill. But there is a measure of great importance, the second reading of which stands for to-night, I mean the Bill for the regulation of the Admiralty and Navy Offices. It is of great moment that this Bill should pass with as little delay as possible, as it has received the sanction of the other House of Parliament, and as the time fixed for its coming into operation is the 14th of May. If, therefore, no material objection exists to that measure, I hope my noble friend behind me will be allowed to proceed with it. If, however, there is any objection to it, or any probability of a difference of opinion respecting it, I propose that the proceeding upon it be deferred to a more convenient opportunity, for, as I have already observed, under the circumstances in which we are placed, I trust your Lordships will concur with me in the propriety of adjourning the consideration of all questions that are likely to produce anything like contest.
Lord Ellenboroughintimated the probability that some debate would arise on the Bill mentioned by the noble Earl, so that it might be expedient to defer the Motion for the second reading.
Earl Greyassented to the postponement.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Admiralty and Navy Offices Bill was accordingly discharged.

REFORM—BIRMINGHAM PETITION.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I hold in my hand a Petition from Dewsbury, signed by above 3,000 persons, who, I am informed, are of the most respectable description, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. I also hold in my hand a petition from the town of Birmingham in favour of Parliamentary Reform. This petition was agreed to at a meeting which was held on the 7th of the present month. A petition proceeding from so large a body of persons appeared to me to be worthy of your Lordships' deepest consideration. I have read the petition attentively, and although it contains opinions in which some of your Lordships may not concur, it is couched in respectful language, and I cannot find in it any statement upon which its reception can be objected to. This petition is the result of a meeting, in numbers unexampled. I have been informed by an individual, on whom I can rely, that in the course of the day above 200,000 persons attended that meeting. For the accuracy of that estimate, of course I cannot myself vouch; but I had it from an individual of great respectability, of great powers of calculation, and who, I am quite confident, is incapable of wilful misrepresentation. I will not trouble your Lordships with entering more fully into this subject; but I beg leave to state that I stand in the same situation as my noble friend, having felt it my duty most respectfully to tender my resignation to his Majesty, in consequence of his Majesty's having declined the advice which we thought it our duty to offer him. In stating this, however, I must add, that to the latest hour of my existence, I shall never cease to entertain the deepest and most heartfelt gratitude for the repeated proofs of confidence which I have received from his Majesty, and for the gracious kindness with which his Majesty has always condescended to treat me. As the petition is signed only by the Chairman of the meeting, it can, in point of form, be received only as the petition of an individual.
At the suggestion of the Earl of Suffolk, the petition was read at length by the Clerk.
The Earl of Suffolk: My Lords, I think that petition does great credit to the people

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of Birmingham. I congratulate myself on changing my place in this House. I congratulate the country on the change; for I am persuaded that in opposition my noble friends near me may be infinitely serviceable. In opposition they were the instruments of giving freedom to the Catholics of Ireland, and to the Dissenters of England. But, above all, I congratulate the people on the firm, but peaceable manner, in which they have shown their determination to obtain Parliamentary Reform. By their temperate and conciliatory conduct, they have won it from their friends; let them proceed in the same course, and they will extort it from their enemies.
The Earl of Plymouthobserved, that at meetings such as that from which the Birmingham petition proceeded, many persons attended, not for the purpose of petitioning, but influenced solely by curiosity. He denied that there was the intense anxiety among the people, on the subject of Reform, which was pretended. He denied the general respectability of the Political Unions; at least of those of which he had any knowledge. With respect to the particular meeting in question, it would not appear surprising that it was so numerous, when it was known that a district of from fourteen to eighteen miles in circumference had been ransacked to collect an assembly for the occasion; and that in some of the Unions it was a rule that any person above twelve years of age was eligible as a member.
The Lord Chancellordid not wish to prolong the conversation on this subject. He would merely observe, that there could be no doubt that there might be some men, women, and children, who were induced to attend the meeting from motives of curiosity; but from the information which he had received, there could also be no doubt that the great body and bulk of the persons who assembled on that occasion were most anxious for the furtherance of the objects for which the meeting was convened. When they were talking of hundreds of thousands, it was a matter of little importance if a few hundreds were liable to the remark of the noble Earl. He was happy, however, that the noble Earl had afforded him an opportunity of stating the loyal and peaceable demeanour of the great meeting in question. There had not been the slightest disturbance.
Petition laid on the Table.

REFORM—COMMITTEE.
Lord Ellen-boroughobserved, that if the Order for proceeding with the Reform Bill in Committee to-morrow were discharged, another day should be fixed for that proceeding.
Earl Greysaid, that he meant only to move to discharge the Order for to-morrow; but he saw no necessity for naming any other day.
The Earl of Carnarvon:The noble Earl has moved that the Order of the Day for proceeding to-morrow with the consideration of the Reform Bill in Committee be discharged. My Lords, I do not think that we shall do our duty to our Sovereign, left by the extraordinary conduct of the noble Earl and his colleagues in a most difficult, if not a most perilous situation, if we permit this order to be so contemptuously discharged, and abandon the measure now, because we expressed our wish—a wish which we share with the great majority of intelligent persons of the country—to proceed with it on the most liberal and conciliatory principles. Because the mode of proceeding which your Lordships have thought proper to adopt with respect to the Bill, is not exactly that of which the noble Lords opposite approve—because the alphabetical arrangement which the noble Lords opposite recommend, your Lordships have not thought it proper to follow—because your Lordships decline to consider schedules A and B until you have considered schedules C and D—such are the only grounds on which the noble Lords opposite have proceeded. My Lords, the noble Lords opposite may act as they think fit: we know the grounds, the slight grounds, which their defeat on Monday evening afforded them for one of the most atrocious propositions with which a subject ever dared to insult the ears of the Sovereign. We have heard, and it was what I naturally expected to hear, that his Majesty, who was among the first to recommend Reform upon broad and constitutional principles, finding himself reduced to the alternative to which his Ministers ventured to reduce him, has acted as became a Sovereign of the House of Brunswick; and by so doing he has established an additional title to the respect and affection of his subjects. But, my Lords, it shall not go forth to the public, because the noble Lords opposite, whatever may be the motives which have influenced them, have determined to abandon the measure, it shall not go forth

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to the public that this House is unwilling to enter into the discussion of its merits. This Bill must be discussed, unless the majorty of your Lordships, which I do not believe, are opposed to that discussion. If, therefore, the Order of the Day for proceeding to-morrow with the consideration of the measure be discharged, I will move, instanter, that it stand for Monday next. Should it be impracticable to bring the subject forward on so early a day, it may easily be postponed; whereas, if it be fixed for too late a day, we cannot advance the period of the discussion. I, therefore, move, that your Lordships proceed with the consideration of the Reform Bill in Committee on Monday next.
Earl Grey: My Lords, I have been too much accustomed to the ill-timed, violent, personal, and I must add, unparliamentary language of the noble Earl who has just sat down, as well as to his personal attacks on myself and my colleagues, to be much affected or even surprised by the very disorderly attack which the noble Earl has considered it necessary to make on this occasion. Nor is it for the defence of myself personally against the imputations which the noble Earl has thought proper to cast upon me, that I again rise to address your Lordships. I trust, my Lords, that it is not necessary for me to do so; that in the estimation of your Lordships and of the public, my character is such, that I may without presumption consider myself as sufficiently shielded against the danger of suffering from such imputations. The noble Earl has been pleased to qualify the advice which I thought it my duty respectfully to tender to my Sovereign, as atrocious and insulting; and there are other noble Lords on that side of the House I perceive, who appear to agree with the noble Earl in that opinion. All I can say is, that I deferred giving that advice until the very last moment: that I did not give it until the necessity of the case, and my sense of public duty, imposed upon me an obligation which appeared to me to be imperative. Whether I was right or wrong, is a question which, whenever the noble Lord opposite may think proper to bring it under discussion before your Lordships, I am prepared to argue and satisfactorily, I trust, to vindicate my conduct to your Lordships and my country. But I appeal confidently to your Lordships and to the country, whether, until that period shall
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arrive, I may not rely upon my character to save me from the imputation of sinister motives with which the noble Earl was pleased most unjustly to charge me. [The Earl of Carnarvon said across the Table that he did not impute sinister motives to the noble Earl]. The feeling which prompts the noble Earl to make his violent addresses to your Lordships, is such as sometimes to render him unconscious of the language he uses. If, however, the noble Earl disclaims the expression which I quoted, of course I cannot wish to tie down the noble Earl to words which he already regrets to have used. I repeat, that the advice which I offered to my Sovereign, when the proper time comes I am prepared to defend; and in the meanwhile I throw myself upon the candour of your Lordships and of the country, and ask if it be possible that I could have been actuated by any other motive than a strict sense of duty? Having as a Minister of the Crown given the advice which I thought it my duty to give, and that advice not having been accepted, I had no alternative but most humbly and respectfully to tender my resignation to his Majesty; which his Majesty with that unwearied goodness he has ever shown me, was graciously pleased to accept. The noble Earl says, that there was no adequate cause for our resignation, that the grounds on which we proceeded were only trifling; that they were only mere matters of form; that the proceeding proposed by the other side-was conciliatory; that, in point of fact, it was only if the discussion of the schedules C and D should or should not precede the discussion of the schedules A and B. If that was really the case, if the question was as unimportant as the noble Earl represents it, then the noble Earl is right, and he is justified in censuring the Ministers; but that was not the case, and in the debate on Monday evening, I distinctly stated to your Lordships the reasons which rendered it evident to me that the question which we were then discussing was of the utmost importance, and that to postpone the consideration of the schedules, taking them out of the order assigned to them, materially affected the principle of the Bill. The main principle of the Bill, that on which my colleagues and I place the greatest stress, is, to relieve the Constitution from the numerous evils which result from the existence of the nomination boroughs. The proposition made to your Lordships on Monday was,

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to postpone the consideration of that subject and make the extent of the disfranchisement depend on the number of towns to be enfranchised, thus making the disfranchisement which we regard as the essential part of the Bill, contingent upon another circumstance. That was a very material change in the character of the measure, and such a change, that it was quite impossible for us, without allowing the nomination boroughs to be part of the Constitution, to accede to it. But, my Lords, that is not all. In what situation was the author of the Bill placed after the question of Monday evening was carried? A noble Lord (Wharncliffe) declared that he was ready to go the whole length of schedule A, and the noble Earl (Harrowby) said in that discussion, that he was disposed to grant a considerable Reform; but I did not hear any other noble Lord on that side of the House, express his willingness to go along with those noble Lords, to agree to the whole of the disfranchisement comprehended in schedule A. But by whom was the proposition of Monday evening made? By a noble and learned Lord, who, in the course of his speech, stated, that he still considered the Bill to be inconsistent with the safety of the Government and subversive of the Constitution. What right had we to suppose that the noble and learned Lord would support the disfranchising portions of the Bill when they came to be considered, if we gave our consent to the postponement? And by whom was the noble and learned Lord's proposition supported? In the first place, by a noble Duke, who has declared that the present state of the Representation is incapable of being amended by human ingenuity or wisdom. By whom else was that proposition supported? By another noble Duke (Newcastle) who has declared himself hostile to any disfranchisement by a noble Baron (Bexley) who expressed his hope that, by adopting the proposition of the noble and learned Lord, their Lordships might entirely avoid the necessity of any disfranchisement. My Lords, under these circumstances, is it not childish to say that the question decided by your Lordships on Monday was merely one of form or precedence? It involves the principle of the Bill, and it was quite impossible that we could, with any consistency, accept that as a boon which would have been at once destructive of our measure and our character. In the
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circumstances in which that decision placed me, I had first to see whether I could obtain the means of insuring the success of the measure; and having failed in that attempt, I had to consider whether it would be consistent with my duty to my Sovereign and to the public, and with the maintenance of my own character and honour, to continue the mere shadow of a Minister, and to have the Reform Bill taken out of my hands, for the purpose of being cut, carved, mutilated, and destroyed, just as its opponents might think proper. My Lords, I am convinced, that in the opinion of all your Lordships, even of those noble Lords who do not approve of the Reform Bill, the course which I have taken will be attributed only to a sense of the duty which I owe to my Sovereign and my country, and a sense of what was due to that personal honour which, I trust, I have never yet forfeited. I stand before the public responsible for my actions. I am ready to meet any charge which may be brought against me, and to vindicate my conduct and my motives whenever the proper occasion may arrive. One word, my Lords, as to what the noble Earl has chosen to call the contemptuous manner in which I have moved to discharge the Order for to-morrow. It is the usual motion on such occasions. It is not for me to appoint any other day. Even the noble Earl finds a difficulty in doing so. For myself, I certainly cannot proceed with the Bill under the circumstances which have occurred. I trust that out of all these unhappy differences, a measure of Reform may eventually arise, extensive, efficient, and beneficial (if not extensive and efficient, it will not be beneficial)—a measure which may be satisfactory to the country, and which may restore the attachment of the people to the institutions of the State. But it is impossible for me to proceed with the measure, subject to the daily alterations which might be forced upon me by a majority, four-fifths of which consist of persons who object to all Reform whatever. To the unjust, the ill-timed, and I will add, the unprovoked attack of the noble Earl, I should, perhaps, not have considered it necessary to make any answer, had I not been desirous to set myself right with your Lordships and with the public, with reference to the motives which have influenced me, and the sense of duty under which I have acted.
The Earl of Carnarvonsaid, that he

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had made no attack upon the noble Earl, but as the noble Earl had made an attack upon him, he was sure that their Lordships would allow him to say a few words in explanation. It still appeared to him, that the other House of Parliament having sent the measure up to them, and their Lordships having determined to take it into consideration, if their Lordships should now determine not to go further, they would appear to dismiss it with contempt. Now he was sure that every Member of that House desired to afford to that measure the most earnest and the most complete attention. With regard to the complaint of the noble Earl, that he (the Earl of Carnarvon) had imputed motives to him, and sinister motives too, he would appeal to their Lordships, whether a single word that had fallen from him could be construed into the meaning of imputing any such motives to the noble Earl. Indeed, after what he had heard to-night, and a few nights ago, he, for one, could not form a conclusion as to what the motives were which had guided the noble Earl in the course which he had pursued. He thought that the noble Earl, when he spoke of the advice which he had tendered to the Sovereign, alluded to that which had been formerly alluded to in that House and elsewhere, namely, the making of such a number of Peers as would destroy the deliberative character and independence of the House of Lords. But though he condemned the giving of such advice, he had never imputed to the noble Earl that in giving it he was actuated by the personal motive of preserving himself and his colleagues in office; and he had never meant to insinuate that in tendering such a tremendous counsel to their Sovereign, they had done so for the purpose of making their way in a House in which they had been already outvoted. If the noble Earl supposed that he imputed any such motive to him in giving that counsel, he had quite misunderstood what had fallen from him, and if any person had imputed such a motive to the noble Earl, the imputation had not come from that side of the House. When he said that it was the most atrocious advice that any Minister had ever given to his Sovereign, the words were spoken in perfect good temper, though, undoubtedly, they were characterised by a warmth which became a friend of the Constitution, and a Member of that House—they emanated from a feeling which he
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should deeply and warmly entertain till the last moment of his existence. If, however, such an atrocious counsel had not been given to the Sovereign, and if it were other considerations that had induced the noble Earl to take the step which he had taken, he humbly begged the noble Earl's pardon for attributing to him such an unconstitutional line of conduct. Perhaps he had already exceeded the limits of an explanation, but he supposed, after the attack which had been made upon him, that he should be allowed to offer a few more observations to their Lordships in his vindication.
Lord Doverrose to order. The noble Earl should confine his observations to that which was immediately before the House, and he had no right to diverge from the strict line of explanation into other and irrelevant topics.
The Earl of Carnarvonwas satisfied that he was perfectly in order, for he meant strictly to confine himself to the subject before the House. He had a Motion before the House, and to that Motion he attached no trivial importance. When he said he had been attacked by the noble Earl, he did conceive that the statement of the noble Earl as to the temper which he (the Earl of Carnarvon) manifested in making that Motion, and the warmth of feeling which he then displayed—a warmth of feeling which, when the Constitution was assailed, any man who loved that Constitution would not fail to evince—constituted an attack upon him. The statement of the noble Earl was, that he (the Earl of Carnarvon) was possibly in such a state of irritation as precluded him from knowing the import of his words. He had spoken not in anger, but in dismay, when he heard such a declaration as that made under such circumstances by the noble Earl to that assembly. If be was not wrong in supposing that such an advice as that he bad already alluded to, had been given to the Sovereign, he would ask their Lordships whether the history of this country supplied an instance in which on such slight and trivial grounds a proceeding so involving the political independence and constitution of that House had been resorted to by any Administration? If such an advice had been given to the Sovereign, it was given in a spirit consistent with the mode of dealing which had been hitherto adopted by his Majesty's Ministers towards their Lordships,—it was

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given by Ministers who meant to deal with their Lordships as abject tools and instruments, precisely as they themselves were dealt with by those whom they could not deny to be their lords and masters. The Motion which he (the Earl of Carnarvon) had made, was made in order to enable every noble Peer in that House to make up his mind as to the course which he should pursue; and though amongst them there might be shades and differences of opinion as to the extent to which Reform was required, there was no difference of opinion on this point,—that, owing to circumstances to which he should not more particularly allude, but which he, for one, must ever deplore, a necessity existed for their conceding some considerable but the safest possible measure of Reform. It was for the purpose of affording to their Lordships an opportunity of proceeding with the consideration of this measure in Committee, and of introducing into it such amendments as they should think fit,—an opportunity that he regretted to find his Majesty's Government refused to give them,—that he had brought forward the Motion now before the House. Under such circumstances, he conceived it his duty to call on their Lordships not to adjourn the consideration of this measure for a long period, but for the shortest possible time. He proposed no unnecessary delay, when he proposed to fix the Committee for Monday next, and there would be no difficulty, should the House not then be in a situation to resume the subject (and there was no reason to think that it would not be so), to postpone the question until the House should be in a situation to resume the consideration of it. His Lordship concluded by moving, that the House do resolve into Committee on Monday—carried.
Their Lordships on the Motion of Earl Grey, adjourned till the 11th.