Sitting of 29 June 1832

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. Toast WOOD, the Rules by which the different Overseers in England levy the Assessments for the Poor, and the Amount of the Assessments.—On the Motion of Mr. BRISCOE, Copies of all the Sentences awarded in the different Courts in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, since 1823.
Bills. Read a second time:—Forgery; Taxed Carts.
Petitions presented. By Mr. BAILLIE, from Bristol, against the General Inclosure Bill; and in favour of the Vagrants (Scotland and Ireland) Removal Bill; and by Mr. BRISCOE, from Lambeth, in favour of the same Bill.—By Mr. SADLER, from Tottingdon and Castleford, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill.—By Mr. STRICKLAND,

1159
from Kendal, against the General Register Bill.—By Mr. BRISCOE, from the Prisoners confined for Debt an the King's Bench Prison, for the better Managing that Establishment; and from Camberwell, for a better Observance of the Sabbath—By Lord KILLEEN, from five Places in Ireland, against Tithes; from Youghall, for Abolishing the Punishment of Death; and from the Wolverhampton Political Union, for an efficient Reform for Ireland.

TITHES (IRELAND)—CALL OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, in answer to a question, he should be exceedingly happy if he could, consistently with his sense of duty, comply with the request to withhold enforcing his call of the House, of which he had given notice for Thursday next. The question then to be discussed (the Tithe Question) was one which was of so much importance, that he should not be acting properly if he did not enforce the call. He was exceedingly sorry to give trouble to any hon. Member, but he considered it his imperative duty to act as he had done. The intention of amalgamating tithes with the rent was, in his opinion, merely a bonus to the people of Ireland to withhold the payment of their rents. Whatever might now be done with respect to that question, tithes would never again be paid in Ireland. He felt very sorry that he was obliged to trouble a House which had already declared that it did not represent the people; but the question was one of very great importance, and he should be under the necessity of taking the sense of the House upon every question that was put from the Chair. The Government would have acted much better had they deferred these bills till another Session of Parliament.
Sir Matthew White Ridleywas sorry to hear what had fallen from the hon. member for Kerry. He could not agree with him in the opinion which he had formed with regard to the tithe commutation. He knew, from great personal experience in England, that where landlords had entered into an arrangement with the clergyman, by which tithes and rent were all paid as rent, there neither was difficulty in getting the rent, nor were there any complaints of the plan; but, on the contrary, it was very much approved of in the north. He hoped the hon. Member would reconsider his intention, and not give the House the unnecessary trouble of dividing upon every question from the Chair.
Sir Charles Wetherellwas decidedly against the bringing in these Bills at the present late period of the Session. They might lengthen it to an indefinite period.
Mr. Shawwas afraid, as the hon.
1160
and learned member for Kerry (Mr. O'Connell) said, that, whatever plan Government might now propose with regard to tithes, they would never be paid in Ireland. In the hon. and learned Member's opinion, they were already extinct, and he (Mr. Shaw) was much afraid rents would soon follow the same course. He had read in The Dublin Evening Mail, an account of a meeting of 100,000 people, who assembled to carry in procession to the grave two coffins, on which were inscribed Tithes, and Rent. At the interment of these two coffins a Catholic priest presided, and the mob after burying both tithes and rent, defaced several monuments and cut down trees. They must look, he was afraid, for a repetition of such scenes. He trusted, however, that the hon. Secretary for Ireland would persevere with his plan, in order that the clergy might be enabled to live. They were now living merely upon the bounty of their friends, and as they had had their hopes raised by the promises held out by that hon. Gentleman, he sincerely trusted that they would not now have to complain of the right hon. Gentleman deserting them. He begged to ask the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, whether it was the intention of the Government to press on the measures of which he had given notice with respect to tithes; for he could not help fearing lest the right hon. Gentleman might be overborne by the threats or the solicitations of the hon. member for Kerry, and induced to postpone them.
Mr. Stanleysaid, he would not, nor would it then be proper, to enter into the general question; but, in answer to the hon. and learned Recorder's question, he would state, that undoubtedly it was not the intention of his Majesty's Government to postpone these measures, as they were of too great importance, both to the clergy and to the people of Ireland, to allow them to stand over until another Session. At the same time, although it was their intention to introduce three distinct measures, it did not follow that they should all be passed into a law before the prorogation. The first Bill, however, at least, if not the first and second, would be carried through Parliament. The first, independently of anything else, would be a material improvement on the present system, without which the ulterior part of the plan could not be carried into effect.
Mr. Leadercould see no benefit which

1161
would result from going into the consideration of these measures at a late period of the Session, as they must necessarily be left incomplete.
Mr. O'Connellwas really glad to hear that only one of the Bills was to be carried through this Session. He begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman the nature of the first Bill. If only one of the Bills was to be passed, he would not persevere in the Call of the House which he had given notice of for Thursday.
Mr. Stanleysaid, he would on Thursday move for leave to lay on the Table three distinct Bills. The first was, to make certain amendments in the existing system of composition, rendering it both permanent and compulsory, to which it was the intention of the Government to attach a clause which would render the landlord, not the tenant, liable. The object of the second was, to vest the Church revenues in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; and of the third, the redemption of tithes by a land tax.
Lord Killeenagreed with the hon. and learned member for Kerry, in thinking that the plan adopted by Government was not a wise one, as it would create great jealousy in Ireland, but he acquitted Ministers of any intention to cause such a feeling.
Mr. Goulburnsuggested, that it was, at all events, fitting some support should be secured for the clergy, until this question was finally decided. Otherwise, from the present state of things in Ireland, the incumbents and the whole body of the clergy would be left without any means of existence.
Mr. O'Connelldid not often agree with the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last, but he did in this instance. Supposing that the Government were ever so right, and the people quite wrong, still the sentiment against the payment of tithe was now almost unanimous in Ireland, and so strong, that even those who were desirous to pay them, dare not, from the fear of that civil excommunication which would be the result of such payment. Under these circumstances, the contest being now kept up would only tend to deprive the clergy of every thing, for out of their livings they would get nothing.
Mr. Stanleyrose to order, and complained of Mr. O'Connell going into details, and entering upon the general subject.
The Speakerdecided that there was no breach of order.
Mr. O'Connellwould give one instance with respect to a living which had been lately divided, leaving all the duty and all the Protestants to one clergyman, with 100 l. a-year, while another was to have 900 l. a-year, without either a church or a Protestant in his parish.
Sir Charles Wetherellrepeated the suggestion made by Mr. Goulburn, and said, that it was too late to consider the whole of this subject in the present Session.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, that the right hon. Secretary's proposition, in making a compulsory composition, was deceptive, and. he hoped it would be postponed, for he was confident it would give great dissatisfaction in Ireland.
Subject dropped.

PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND).
Mr. Stanley, in rising to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee, on the Reform of Parliament (Ireland) Bill, wished to make one observation on the Bill relative to Party Processions in Ireland. Having ascertained, not without feelings of regret, that it was the fixed determination of many Irish Members to fight this Bill in all its stages, and take every mode of impeding its progress which the forms of that House sanctioned, he had ceased to hope that he should be able to get it through the House this Session. He, in saying this, did not mean to be understood as despairing of the success of the Bill, when again introduced, or as having abandoned his opinion. Since, however, these hon. Members had thus resolved to oppose a Bill which it was intended should have strengthened the arm of the civil power and the Magistracy in Ireland, he would remind them, that upon them would rest the responsibility of refusing that aid at a time which imperiously called for the assistance of the Legislature. Taking into consideration the state of excitement in which that country was now plunged, that responsibility was increased by the circumstance of the near approach to party anniversaries; and the fate of the 12th of July next might be involved in the resolution come to by these hon. Gentlemen. The events of that day, if disastrous, must be controlled and decided altogether by the common law, as it stood now. He earnestly entreated, therefore, the hon. Members who opposed this Bill, and who

1163
possessed influence with either of the opposite political parties in Ireland, to contribute by every effort in their power, to the maintenance of peace and the support of the law; and more particularly did he make that appeal to the hon. member for Sligo, who the other night had stated that he possessed the means of influence, if he were disposed to exert them. With this explanation for not proceeding at present with the measure, he should now move the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Reform of Parliament (Ireland) Bill.
Colonel Percevalsaid, that having been alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, who had endeavoured to throw upon him (Colonel Perceval) the responsibility of all that might take place on the ensuing 12th of July, he felt bound to rise (contrary to his intention) on the present occasion. He himself had only become an Orangeman (for such he was ready to admit himself to be) within a very short period, and he also admitted, that he had on a former occasion expressed his opinion, that the law, as it now stood, was sufficient to prevent these processions. He must at the same time say, that the language which had been applied by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland—namely that the opposition to the measure was that of the bigotted partisans of an expiring faction—was such as ought not to have been used in reference to a body comprising the wealth, rank, talent, intelligence, and loyalty of Ireland. He had (he admitted) on a former occasion endeavoured to ward off the pointed insult which had been thus offered to the body, because he did not know to what extent or results these insults, if acted upon, might lead. He had endeavoured, as he should still endeavour, to prevent the processions from taking place.
Mr. Lefroywas not surprised at the anxiety which the right hon. Gentleman had just displayed to shift the responsibility from the shoulders of the Government to those of the Protestant gentry of Ireland; he, however, cast back on the Ministers all that responsibility, for they alone were answerable for the consequences that might ensue on the failure of this Bill. Either this Bill was of importance, or it was not; and if the Government really thought it of importance, why had not the right hon. Gentleman brought it forward sufficiently early in the
1164
Session to insure its being passed before the 12th of July?
Mr. O'Connell: I am desirous that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government should take a lesson from what is occurring at the present moment; for they may learn from it in how very different a spirit those who belong to the popular party receive a concession from those who are represented by the two hon. Gentlemen who have just preceded me. Instead of expressing any pleasure at the concession—instead of thanking the Government for it—instead of being gratified that their wishes are likely to be carried into effect, they have received the boon with taunts and have returned insult for concession. Their business ought to be to pour oil on the troubled sea of public opinion; but, instead of that, they are blowing the waves into additional fury. I, however, am determined to do my duty; and I here promise to address the Catholic population of the North of Ireland in the strongest terms, for the purpose of persuading them to go cut of the way of those processions, so that, if possible, no blood may be shed; and I also implore the Gentlemen on the other side, to come forward, and by their solicitations and advice to do all in their power to prevent mischief on the 12th of July. I implore them to show by their conduct that they know how to deserve this concession that the Government has made. Setting aside political differences, I know that there is not one Protestant gentleman in Ireland who would not deeply lament the circumstance of one single life being lost owing to these processions; there is not one of them who would not shrink with horror from such a supposition; there is not one of them in whose breast the spirit of humanity does not exist—and I, therefore, implore them, one and all, to use their best exertions to prevent these processions, from which so much danger is apprehended.
Lord Althorpsaid, that it was only late in the present Session that the Government had become aware of the extent to which it was proposed these processions in Ireland on the ensuing anniversary should reach, and to that might be attributed the lateness of the period at which the Bill had been introduced; and, though the hon. member for Sligo might do his best to prevent their taking place, he feared the hon. Gentleman would not succeed. Now, if the hon. Gentle-

1165
man thought these processions dangerous to the peace of Ireland, it surprised him that the hon. Gentleman should oppose this measure. He well knew that it had been the constant complaint in this House, that the law was insufficient to suppress these processions, and he must say, that he thought the Bill proposed was a most desirable measure to effect that object. It was a Bill that ought to be passed, and he expected that it would be so at a later period of the Session, when it could not be urged as a pretext for opposition to it, that it went to operate against particular parties on a particular occasion.
Mr. Goulburnfelt it clue to the hon. member for Sligo to say, that he had ever found him ready, during the period of his (Mr. Goulburn's) connexion with Ireland, to prevent these processions, and he could not but deprecate the allusion to that hon. Gentleman, as responsible for the transactions of the ensuing 12th of July. He could not but recommend all parties to use their best and most active exertions for the prevention of the processions, from which so much evil was dreaded. His hon. friend, the member for Sligo, had signified last night, in private conversation, that all the influence he possessed should be employed to prevent these processions on the 12th of July. He could also assert, that during the time when he was in Ireland there was no Gentleman who exerted himself more than the hon. member for Sligo, to preserve tranquillity.
Mr. Shawsaid, his opposition to the Bill was entirely founded upon its partiality and not upon its principle. He believed he was not alone in entertaining a fixed hostility to the Bill on that account. He most sincerely concurred with hon. Members in the recommendation to all persons of influence to use it discreetly in repressing all demonstration of party feeling, which might end possibly in the effusion of human blood.
Sir Robert Peelregretted exceedingly to hear it stated, that there was any prospect of the public peace being broken in Ireland on the 12th of July, but he trusted that those who possessed influence in Ireland, by their station or their property, would not only individually exert themselves, but meet for the purpose of issuing unanimous exhortations to the Protestants of Ireland—to prove that this law was not necessary, and to induce them voluntarily to abandon that which would necessarily
1166
give pain to others of the community. That would be a real triumph, to dispense with the necessity for this law altogether, and he felt confident that every Protestant gentleman would be ready to do all in his power to prevent a collision, or the possibility of one single life being lost. With respect to the Bill itself, he certainly was prepared to support its principles; but, nevertheless, he should have wished to see certain modifications introduced; for instance, he would much rather that a general power should have been vested in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant, in case of the public peace being endangered, than that this power should be left in the hands of individual Magistrates. He perfectly agreed with the hon. and learned member for Kerry, that if life were lost in the processions, those who took part in the processions ought deeply to lament it. He was averse to all displays of physical force in civil life. He did not impute bad motives to those who assembled in processions; but, when thousands of persons met in arms, they set a bad example to others who might not be so well disposed as themselves. The Legislature having removed all disabilities in Ireland, the object of all Irishmen ought to be, to put an end to those dissentious which the existence of unequal rights had been calculated to excite, and to place that country in the state of tranquillity from which alone private safety and public prosperity could flow.
Sir Frederick Trenchwas glad to find, that the hon. and learned member for Kerry was ready to assist in allaying agitation; and he was equally glad to find that the Government now thought that party processions were dangerous. Such had not been the case some months back, when Viscount Melbourne sanctioned art insulting procession of the trades in this metropolis. The Government had come in at the eleventh hour, and had opened its eyes to the dangers of such processions.
Sir Robert Bateson, from the communications he had received from the county he had the honour to represent, was prepared to say, that the irritating language with which this measure had been introduced, would produce a re-action amongst the Orangemen in that county, and it would not be possible for the Magistrates to prevent the processions on the ensuing anniversary. This arose from the insult which they felt had been levelled at them; and he ventured to say, that had not Govern-

1167
ment introduced this Bill, the Magistrates would much more easily have restrained the processions. It was, then, too much to charge his hon. friend, the member for Sligo, with the responsibility of the transactions of the 12th of July, when, that responsibility was created by the Government itself. In consequence of the hon. and learned member for Kerry saying he would use his powerful influence on the one side, he trusted the spirit of conciliation would prevail on the other, and that no collision would take place between any parties on the approaching 12th of July.
Mr. Anthony Lefroysaid, if the right hon. Secretary failed in this, as he had in various other measures, the responsibility must rest with the right hon. Gentleman himself, and not with any party in the House.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR IRELAND—COMMITTEE—FOURTH DAY.
Question put "that the Speaker do leave the Chair."
Mr. O'Connellsuggested, that as it had been agreed on the part of Government to introduce certain alterations into the registration clauses, it would be as well to have the Bill committed to-night, pro formâ, for the purpose of having the amendments printed, and with a view to take the whole, and he hoped conclusive, discussion, on Monday.
Mr. Stanleysaid, the alterations were neither so numerous nor material as to render it necessary to recommit the Bill; he, therefore, thought it better to proceed with the Committee.
House went into Committee.
The Chairman having put the question on that part of the 4th clause which renders the payment of Grand Jury and Municipal cesses, rates, and taxes, a condition of registration,
Mr. O'Connellrose to move, that the words requiring, that not more than half a-year's cess and taxes be due at the time of registration be omitted. Such assessments were frequently matter of dispute, and the provision would hold out to Corporations an additional inducement to spend other people's money, at the same time that it armed them with an oppressive power of enforcing excessive and arbitrary assessments. The Corporation of Cork, for example, spent 70,000 l. a-year of the people's money, and they would be encouraged to double their expenses if this
1168
clause, indirectly enforcing the payment, were allowed to remain unaltered. The clause would actually place the people at the mercy of the Corporations. He should move the omission of the words rendering the payment of Grand Jury and Municipal assessments a necessary qualification for registration.
Mr. Stanleydenied, that there existed sufficient grounds for the alteration proposed by the hon. and learned Member. The restrictions adopted in Ireland, with a view to prove the solvency of voters, were less than in England, and the obstacles to registration fewer. In fact, in Ireland it was not necessary, as in England, that the person claiming to be registered, should have occupied his house more than a twelvemonth. In Ireland six months residence before the time of registration was all that was required, which was a great advantage.
Mr. Lefroythought the hon. and learned Member's objection to the clause perfectly unfounded. He would rather propose as an amendment, to substitute twelve calender months for six, as in the English Bill.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, the Irish voter stood in a more favourable situation than the English voter. He thought it by no means desirable to do away with this condition of registration; if it were abolished, they would have in many towns in Ireland, what would amount to Universal Suffrage. Corporations had no direct power of taxation: it was true they might obliquely tax through the instrumentality of Grand Juries, but to effect that, there must be a regular presentment, and fiat by a Judge, so that there existed sufficient obstacles against the abuses which the learned Member appeared to apprehend—add to which, the assessments were trifling in amount.
Mr. O'Connellwas aware Corporations could not legally impose assessments; but means might be found to lay on rates illegally, and the non-payment of such illegal rates would prevent registration.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, the words of the clause were, "cesses, rates, and taxes, due and payable," and the plain meaning of the expressions was "legally due."
Mr. O'Connellwas satisfied to let the clause stand, if the word "legally" were introduced.
Agreed to, and the clause amended accordingly.
Mr. Shawwished to introduce the word "rent" into the clause, with a view to

1169
render the payment of rent a condition of registration.
Mr. Sheilmoved, that the words after the word "all" in the clause he omitted. His object, he said, was, to guard against useless litigation, and prevent bribery, by letting the 10 l. voters exercise their franchise, independent of the fact of their having paid municipal taxes. By the clause as it stood, they could not vote, unless they proved that they had paid "all municipal taxes;" and unless those taxes be specified, there would be no end to the disputes as to the taxes which were or were not municipal; and in the smaller boroughs Dungarvan, for example, with its 167 voters, there would be great temptations to bribery on the part of the candidate.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, no difficulty was imposed on the Irish voter which was not imposed on the English voter. The proof of having paid the municipal taxes would be the same in both cases. He should oppose the Amendment.
The Committee divided on the Amendment:—Ayes 21; Noes 59—Majority 38.
Clause agreed to.

List of the AYES.

Blackney, W.

O'Connell, D.

Browne, D.

O'Connor, Don

Chapman, M. L.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Godson, R.

Parnell, Sir H.

Grattan, H.

Ruthven, E. S.

Grattan, J.

Tomes, J.

Hume, J.

Walker, C. A.

Hunt, H.

Wallace, T.

Hort, Sir J. W.

Warburton, H.

Jephson, C. D. O.

Leader, N. P.

TELLER

Mullins, F. W.

Sheil, R. L.

On the fifth clause being read,
Mr. Dawsonmoved, that persons possessing freeholds of 40 s. in boroughs, and in cities that were counties of towns, should not have the liberty of voting as freeholders for the counties in which those towns and cities were situated. This alteration would but slightly affect any towns that were not counties of themselves, except those of Dungarvan and Mallow. The injustice, therefore, if there was any in the proposition, would be but small, while he thought it would be an act of justice to the counties, and would be but a fair set-off to the disfranchisement which had taken place with regard to non-resident voters in boroughs. If these voters were not disfranchised, he could tell the House, that fictitious votes would
1170
be easily created for the purposes of county elections. An instance of this was to be found in the town of Galway, where by one lease there were 200 freehold tenants created. The lease was a lease of what was stated to be 200 acres of ground, but it was so rocky and so stony, that when one of these 200 persons was asked if he thought his share was fairly worth 40 s. a-year, he said, he believed that his share of ground that could be applied to tillage, would not be sufficient to form him a grave. There was another instance of the creation of fictitious freeholders in the same place, where Mr. Blake had, by a joint lease, created a number of tenants of some land of his, adjoining his residence, and had registered these tenants as freeholders. Of course there was not one of these persons who would not vote exactly as Mr. Blake might desire. In this manner there were no less than 921 persons in Galway who were what he might call fictitious freeholders. The whole constituency there was not more than 1,600, composed of 40 s. freeholders and 10 l. householders. From this statement it was plain that nomination boroughs were not entirely destroyed. If the hon. member for Mayo pleased—and he was sure the hon. Member would not please to do so—but if he did, he might make Galway as close a nomination borough as ever Old Sarum or Gatton had been; and yet, at this moment, Galway was about to receive the privilege of returning two Members to Parliament. Under these circumstances he should move, that the end of clause 5, by which the 40 s. freeholders in towns were to have the right of voting in counties, should be omitted.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he should oppose the proposition. He believed, that instead of the system being what the right hon. Gentleman had represented it to be, those instances which he had quoted were—if the right hon. Gentleman was not misinformed as to them; instances of abuse and exceptions to the system. If the right hon. Gentleman sought to get rid of the possibility of these abuses, and would propose a clause to destroy these votes if they were created, or to take away all the means of creating them, he (Mr. Rice) should most heartily support the proposition. He believed, however, that even that would be unnecessary; for there had been a Bill passed by an hon. friend of his, some years since, by which such a

1171
creation of votes was rendered illegal; and if a clear case of that sort were brought before him, he should know how to deal with it. The abolition of 40 s. freeholders in counties had been the condition of granting Catholic Emancipation, and it ought not to be forgotten, that if this measure were extended to towns, it would abolish 1,000 electors in Cork, and more than 900 in Galway. The whole principle of the Bill before the House was to save existing rights, whereas the Amendment had for its object to destroy them. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dawson) on the strong and sudden horror he felt at the existence of nomination boroughs.
Mr. Dawsonbegged to remind his hon. friend, that he had given up the rotten borough system ever since the first introduction of the Reform Bill.
Mr. Dominick Browneconcurred in all the observations which had been made by the right hon. member for Harwich (Mr. Dawson), respecting the unsoundness of the constituency of the town of Galway. He was sorry to say, that the independent electors of that town were swamped by the lowest rabble that existed on the face of the earth: but it was but fair to state, that these fictitious votes had been created as a balance to the non-resident freemen. As the franchise of the non-resident freemen was now taken away, he thought it high time to exclude the 40 s. freeholders in towns from the right of voting.
Mr. Dawsonexpressed his willingness to withdraw the Amendment provided some provision was introduced into the Bill for the purpose of guarding against the creation of fictitious votes.
Mr. O'Connelldid not consider such a clause necessary, because the Bill expressly declared, that only those legally entitled could vote. In Galway he knew the grossest frauds were practised, but he thought they might be put down by extending the Act introduced by the hon. member for Mayo to towns as well as counties. He was as much against fictitious votes as any man, and was ready to support any motion which would do away with them without injuring the bona fide voter. No one could complain of the 40 s. freeholder in many parts of Ireland. The hon. member for Limerick knew, that many of them refused 5l. each, which they could have received from another, and voted for him without any remuneration.
Mr. Stanleythought it desirable to make a broad distinction between bona fide and fictitious voters; but he did not well see how the distinction was to be drawn. He had, therefore, thought it preferable to incur the inconvenience of allowing even fictitious voters to exercise the elective franchise during the lives of the present possessors, than to run the risk of taking away the right from bona fide proprietors. Still, if any provision should be proposed with the view of drawing a distinction between these two kinds of voters, he should be most happy to give it his fullest attention.
Sir John Bourkewould be glad to see the whole of the 40 s. freeholders registered anew; and he thought, that after what had passed in that House, Magistrates would be upon their guard against permitting the registration of fictitious votes.
Mr. Lefroywas in favour of the Amendment. It had been so amply proved by the hon. member for Kerry, and other Gentlemen, that the 40 s. freeholders could not be independent, that he thought it was as gross an abuse to preserve them in towns as in counties.
Mr. Dawsonsaid, that after the proofs that had been adduced of the fictitiousness of the votes in question, he felt persuaded that the right hon. Secretary could not fairly object to giving those freeholders the opportunity of proving their competency to exercise the elective right.
Mr. Stanleywas of opinion, that the manner in which the clause had been framed was sufficient to prevent the abuses anticipated by the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Dawsonwould withdraw his Motion; but hoped that the Solicitor General for Ireland would take the subject into consideration.
Amendment withdrawn—Clause agreed to.
House resumed, Committee to sit again.

LOAN TO WEST-INDIA COLONISTS.
Lord Althorpthen adverted to the circumstance, that he had given notice that, in a Committee of Supply, he should submit a Resolution respecting the losses lately sustained by the West-India proprietors. It was rather irregular that he should have given that notice with reference to a Committee of Supply. He should have given the notice to move the Resolution in a Committee of the whole House; but as the difference was merely formal, he

1173
trusted that no objection would now be made to proceeding with his proposition. The object of the Resolution was, to afford relief to those who had suffered from the insurrection and the hurricanes in Jamaica, Barbadoes, St. Vincent, and St. Lucia.
Question put, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House.
Mr. Herriessaid, he wished to know from the noble Lord opposite, what course his Majesty's Government intended to pursue with respect to the Russian-Dutch Loan?
Lord Althorpreplied, that he was not prepared to give an answer to the question; but of this the right hon. Gentleman and the House might rest assured, that nothing would be done on the subject without due notice.
The House resolved itself into a Committee.
Lord Althorpdid not think it would be necessary for him to trouble the House at any length on the Motion he was about to submit. The House was aware that property to a considerable amount had been destroyed at Jamaica during the late insurrection; and that the hurricane which had visited the Islands of Barbadoes, St. Vincent, and St. Lucia, had produced most destructive consequences. The sum of 100,000 l. had already been voted to the sufferers by the hurricane, and, when moving that grant, he had stated that it would only afford partial relief, and that Government might probably deem it necessary to call on the House to vote a further sum, to be granted by way of loan. From what occurred on this subject on a former occasion, he did not think that there would be any opposition to the vote he was about to propose, so far as it went to relieve the sufferers by the hurricane; but he apprehended that there might be some objection with respect to the vote for the relief of those whose property was destroyed by the insurrection of Jamaica. That was a calamity which could not be considered as a dispensation of Providence, but was an act arising from the wickedness of man, and, therefore, stood upon ground different from the vote he had formerly proposed. A vote for the relief of those whose property was destroyed during the insurrection, however, was not entirely novel. There was a precedent in 1795, when the Government of that day came forward with a proposition
1174
similar to that which he was now about to submit. It might be thought by some persons, that the colonists were not wholly blameless in what had taken place in Jamaica; but, upon a calm review of the whole of the transactions, he thought it would be difficult for any man to believe, that the insurrection had occurred in consequence of any intentional misconduct on the part of the colonists. If there had been any fault, it amounted to no more than unintentional indiscretion, which certainly would not justify the House in withholding relief in their present situation. He did not now propose any grant of money to the colonists, but merely a loan (to be raised by the issue of Exchequer-bills), the repayment of which would be secured by mortgages upon the properties of the persons to whom the money was advanced. Without going into any details as to the mode in which it was proposed to distribute the loan, he might shortly state, that it was intended to appoint a Commission to ascertain who the persons were that ought to receive assistance, and to consider the nature and value of the security they had to offer. When loans had been made upon similar occasions, he believed that the public had not suffered, and he had great confidence, from the arrangements which would be made on this occasion, that no part of the loan would be eventually lost to the public. The amount which it was now proposed to advance was 1,000,000 l., to be divided between Jamaica and the other islands. With respect to Jamaica, it was only intended to enable parties to re-erect those buildings which had been destroyed during the insurrection, and which were necessary for carrying on the business of the colony. The loss of the buildings destroyed in Jamaica had been estimated at above 830,000. It was proposed, therefore, that half the loan, or 500,000 l., should be advanced to Jamaica, and this proportion had been resolved upon, after taking into consideration, that a sum of 100,000 l. had already been granted to the sufferers in the other islands. The noble Lord concluded by moving a Resolution, to the effect, that it was the opinion of the Committee, that his Majesty should be enabled to direct that Exchequer-bills should be issued to an amount not exceeding 1,000,000 l.; to be applied, by way of loan, upon due security for the repayment thereof, to persons connected

1175
with the islands of Jamaica, Barbadoes, St. Vincent, and St. Lucia, in consequence of the losses they had suffered by the Insurrection in Jamaica, and the hurricane which had visited the other islands.
Mr. Baringsaid, in the present state of West-India property, great caution would be requisite about the securities to be given for the proposed loan to prevent the transaction being rendered the subject of jobbing.
Mr. Humesaid, that the public were entitled to have a secondary security upon the property which the colonists had in this country. He was satisfied that, unless different measures were adopted with respect to the West-India colonies, they would soon not be worth the 1,000,000 l. which it was proposed to advance to them. He felt a great objection to lending the public money without obtaining the best security.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonhad at all times been of opinion, that the prosperity of the colonies in the West Indies was intimately connected with the prosperity of the mother country; and he, therefore, looked with pleasure at the intention of the Government to do something to relieve the planters in their present state of distress. He feared, however, that the grant would prove very inadequate to the objects in view, and that great impediments would lie in the way of the benefits expected from the claims of prior mortgagees. It was important to know if the Government proposed that their advances, as mortgagees, should be preferred to all others?
Lord Althorp, in reply to the question of the worthy Alderman, said, that the Government. certainly intended their advances to be repaid in preference to all others; and he apprehended, indeed, that none would apply for any portion of the loan who had not obtained the consent of the other mortgagees to postpone their claims.
Mr. Huntsaid, the people of Bristol had as valid a claim to have their losses made good as the West-Indians had; and he thought they could offer much better security. The grant, he admitted, was one of benevolence and justice; but still he thought that money should not be voted for such purposes, unless the people at home were to have their claims considered in the same manner.
Mr. Warburtondid not object to the Motion, but he reserved his observations
1176
on the policy of the grant until the Bill was before the House.
Lord Sandoncould not allow the Resolution to pass without expressing his gratitude to the Government for the boon they had conferred on the West Indies. The interests of the colonies were the interests of the mother country, and the people of Liverpool were as much benefitted by the prosperity of the West Indies, as the West-Indians themselves. He trusted, however, that the grant thus made with so much readiness and kindness to the colonists, would have the effect of engendering better feelings, and that both parties would henceforward regard each other as engaged in the preservation of the national welfare, and on the production of reciprocal advantages.
Mr. Burgealso felt gratitude to the Government for this advance to the colonies in the hour of necessity. With regard to the doubts expressed by an hon. Member, of the power of Jamaica to return the 500,000 l. which was to be its portion of the loan, he would only refer to the account of the imports from that island, which showed that more than a fifth of the sugar, and more than a half of the ruin brought into this country were the produce of that island, while out of 43,000,000 l. pounds of coffee received from all the world, Jamaica produced 16,000,000. Of the whole of the exports to the colonies, amounting to 5,000,000 l. and odd, 2,908,533 l. official value went to Jamaica, and, therefore, some idea might be formed of its importance to the mother country. He feared, however, that the grant would afford only partial relief; although he was grateful for even that, in the present condition of the planters.
Dr. Lushingtoncould not consent to vote so large a sum of money, without some evidence being laid on the Table with respect to the necessity of the case, and the merits of the claimants. All he knew was, that the West-Indian Legislative assemblies had declared, that the whole of the mischief proceeded from the arbitrary and unconstitutional character of the proceedings of the Government; and he wished now to know, if the noble Lord intended the present grant of money to be an answer to the charge thus brought against him and the Government? He did not mean to say, that the West Indians had entered on that course which ended in the burning of their property, with a

1177
wish that it should be so destroyed; but this he would say, that they had been repeatedly warned of the consequences of the career they were pursuing; and as they had not taken the warning, he was not prepared to grant money to repair their losses, unless they pledged themselves to adopt such a course as would prevent a recurrence of a similar catastrophe. Supposing a new rebellion broke out, and that it was attended with similar results, were the Government prepared to move for a new grant for losses sustained through the obstinacy of the West-Indians, in placing themselves in opposition to the wishes of the Legislature. He did not mean to divide the Committee on the Motion, but he gave the money with reluctance, and entered his protest against the vote.
Colonel Daviessaid, that the greater portion of the West-Indian estates were so deeply mortgaged, that the present grant could only bolster them up for a short time, and the distress would then be as great as ever. The planters could give no security for the money, or security of such a nature as to render it necessary for the Government to examine very strictly into its sufficiency, if their intentions were ever to enforce the repayment of the loan.
Mr. Godsonregretted to hear from the hon. and learned member for Ilchester, language which was calculated to irritate the minds of all parties concerned in the West-India colonies. He considered the loan to be nothing more than the repayment to the planters of a portion of the property of which they had been, for the space of fifteen years, annually robbed: for in no other light could he look upon the breach of faith with respect to the non-reduction of the war-duties on their produce. Those planters had been contributors to the State of no less than 5,000,000 l. annually for a long series of years, and now the country would fain turn round and refuse them an assistance of 500,000 l., to keep, not only the planter, but his slaves, from starving.
Mr. Fowell Buxtonconcurred entirely in the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Bridport. He could not go into the question of this loan at present; but he trusted his forbearance would not preclude him from expressing his opinions at a future and more suitable opportunity.
Sir James Scarlettsaid, that the reso-
1178
lution was calculated to conciliate the minds of the colonists, and to remove their painful impression, that the present Government was hostile to their interests—an impression which he believed was unfounded, as it was impossible any Government could entertain such sentiments towards so important a branch of the foreign possessions of the kingdom under their control.
Mr. Burgewould not be provoked, by any thing which had fallen from the hon. and learned member for Ilchester, to utter a single syllable which should savour of any thing but gratitude to Government, for the timely aid it had determined to afford to these valuable colonies of the British empire.
Mr. Fowell Buxtonwished to know, whether this sum of money was intended to be applied to make good the whole of the property destroyed on that occasion; for, if so, there were no more flagrant instances of wanton aggression and destruction of property, than those of the whites upon the property and chapels of those innocent, amiable, and virtuous men, the Missionaries.
Lord Althorpagreed with the last speaker, that the outrages committed on the meeting-houses of the Missionaries were wanton, destructive, and disgraceful. A strong representation had been made by this Government to the colonial legislature of Jamaica, as to the immediate necessity of making compensation to the full amount of the injuries these meritorious parties had sustained. What attention might be paid to that recommendation, he was not prepared to say, but if it should be neglected, it would remain with Government to see that justice was done between the parties.
Resolution agreed to—The House resumed.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the motion of Sir James Graham, the House went into a Committee of Supply.
Sir James Graham moved the following Resolutions which were agreed to:—
52,000 l. for defraying the charges for new works at Crenmill:
60,000 l. for defraying the charges for new works for the Victualling Department:
42,269 l. for the salaries of officers and expenses of the Admiralty Office.
On moving 45,635 l. for salaries and contingent expenses of the Navy Office,
Mr. Humecomplained of the appointment of an officer (Captain Symonds) to be Surveyor of the Navy, when there were pupils who had been educated at the School of Naval Architecture, at a considerable expense, who were passed over. It was naturally a subject of great regret to these young men, that, after sixteen years' service, the door of promotion was shut against them.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that what had fallen from him on a former occasion, in reference to this matter, had been misunderstood. These gentlemen were, under the Order in Council, eligible to the various offices connected with the navy, such as Master Shipwright, Shipwright's Assistant, and other situations; and there was scarcely any one of them at present who did not hold some office of trust. All he had to say now was, to repeat what he had stated on a former occasion, that there was not one of those gentlemen at present who was sufficiently qualified, from length of service, to fill the office of Surveyor to the Navy.
Sir Byam Martinsaid, that in his opinion, Captain Symonds was altogether unfit for the situation of Surveyor of the Navy, to which he had been appointed by the right hon. Baronet.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that in appointing Captain Symonds to that office, he had acted in accordance with the best naval advice, and he was persuaded that he was more competent than any other gentleman that could be selected to fill it. He was satisfied too, that when he met the gallant Admiral to discuss the next naval Estimates, the gallant Admiral would be of his opinion.
Sir George Cockburnsaid, that there was not a better officer in existence than Captain Symonds, but he was not convinced that a practical seaman was the best sort of person to make Surveyor of the Navy. Sir Robert Seppings, whom Captain Symonds had displaced, was a most distinguished shipwright, and had rendered the most valuable services to his country. It was quite unnecessary to displace such a man to make room for Captain Symonds.
Sir George Warrenderconcurred in the praise bestowed on the services of Sir Robert Seppings, and said, that, without criticising the appointment of Captain Symonds, he had heard with regret and surprise, the right hon. Baronet state, that
1180
there was not one of the gentlemen in the School of Naval Architecture qualified to fill that situation.
Lord Ingestresaid, that the appointment of Captain Symonds was a slur upon a body of gentlemen, every one of whom he could state, from his own knowledge, was competent to fill any of the civil appointments connected with the navy.
Vote agreed to—The House resumed.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Division of Counties and Boundaries; Trespasses (Scotland.)
Petitions presented. By the Earl of RADNOR, from Clonmel, for an efficient Reform to Ireland.—By Earl GREY, for the Alteration of a Clause in the Scotch Reform Bill.—By the Earl of ROSEBERRY, from Newport, for equal Privileges with Barnstaple.—By Lord KING, from Warwick, in favour of the Vote by Ballot.

DISTURBANCES IN THE COLLIERIES.
Lord Wharnclifferose, pursuant to notice, to present a Petition from certain Owners and Lessees of Collieries in the neighbourhood of the rivers Tyne and Weare, which petition related to the present state of those collieries. He was anxious that the public should know the cause of the dispute which unhappily existed between the workmen and the coal-owners. In doing this, he should be obliged to expl in, in some degree, the connexion which subsisted between the pit-men and the owners of mines. It was necessary that he should do this, in order that their Lordships should correctly understand the situation in which the parties respectively stood. It was customary, in that trade, for the pitmen, in the month of April, to engage with the owners of the pits for one year, on certain specified terms. Part of those terms was, to supply a house to the workman during the time he was so employed. In the month of April, 1831, at the time of binding for the ensuing year, a considerable increase of wages was demanded by the colliers. That increase was at first refused, because it was considered to be much greater than the trade could bear. After a certain time, however, the owners gave way to the demand of the colliers, and agreed to allow the increase of wages to the extent then called for. This went on till the month of November, 1831; and, that being the time when the demand for coals was greater than in any other period of the year, the pitmen, acting under what is called "The Union," refused to work for more than a certain number of hours, which number was settled by "The Union." The owners, naturally unwilling to submit to such a system of dictation, dis-

1153
charged the refractory colliers, and obtained assistance, and procured the aid of a number of men, to work their collieries, from the lead mines and elsewhere. The men who were thus employed to supersede the refractory colliers, were then out of work. This proceedine led to outrage on the part of the men who were discharged. The first outrage was committed at Morlage, in the county of Durham, where the refractory colliers endeavoured to prevent the working of the engines which raised the water out of the pits. At this time the workmen hired from other quarters were occupied in the colliery; and, if those misguided workmen had not been prevented, by the timely arrival of the military, from carrying their horrible purpose into execution, all those who were then employed in the colliery, would inevitably have been drowned. This melancholy catastrophe was, however, happily prevented. When the binding time came round again, the owners, seeing that, if they left the settlement of these matters to the colliers and their supposed friends, they must be ruined; perceiving that if they gave way still further, as was demanded of them, the pitmen would work or play just as they were directed by "The Union;" the proprietors, thus situated, determined to make a stand against further encroachments. They offered the workmen the same terms as they had done in the preceding year; and, to show that the offer was not much less than those individuals demanded, he begged to state what that offer was. They were offered 15 s. a week, play or work; that was, whether the demand for coals was great or small. Coals were also to be supplied to them, and medical assistance was to be afforded, if they were afflicted with illness. The fact was, that if, on a press of demand, they worked eight hours, they might earn from 4s. to 6s. a day. In the south of England their Lordships all knew that labourers were working, during a longer time, for infinitely less. The owners, determined to emancipate themselves from this system of tyranny, in the first place came to a resolution, that the overlookers of the pitmen—that those who were employed to see that the pit-men did their duty fairly, and to whom, in fact, their interests were intrusted—should not belong to any of those "Unions" with which the men had become connected. The workmen demurred to this determination, and
1154
the consequence was, that many individuals connected with the Tyne and Wear collieries refused to work, and they were supported in their idleness out of the funds of the Union Society. This did not pass quietly. The owners, as they were bound to do, for the sake of themselves and families, looked out for other servants. They applied, in the first instance, to persons who had been thrown out of work by the bad state of the lead mines; and they also employed a number of colliers from Darlington, and other distant places. The result of this proceeding had already been the loss of two lives. A man employed at one of those collieries from which this petition came, having refused to belong to "The Union," was shot dead in open daylight. This occurred in the month of April. In the beginning of the present month, a Magistrate of Sunderland, who had been active in affording protection to those strangers who came to work in these denounced collieries, was dragged from his horse, and beaten so savagely about the head, that he had since died, in consequence of the cruel treatment which he had experienced. Yesterday, he was sorry to state, an account of another outrage had reached town. It was at first said that the life of the individual attacked had been sacrificed. He was, however, happy to say, that such was not the fact. The man who in this instance was assailed, was passing by a very public place near the town of Shields. He was suddenly, even in that public place, furiously attacked, and cruelly beaten. He had stated these facts, in order that his Majesty's Ministers might be fully aware of the present situation of that part of the country to which he referred. Every correctly judging man must see, that this was not a mere dispute between the coal owners and those whom they employed about the amount of wages. No; it was an attempt—and a just one—on the part of the owners and lessees of collieries to set their faces against this system of intimidation, which was ruinous not only to their interests, but to the interests of those who blindly supported it. If such a system were sanctioned, if it were not put down effectually, no man could embark in the coal-trade, and the public in general must ultimately suffer. If the masters were not allowed to do that which they thought best, both for their own interests and for those of the workmen (for,

1155
be it remembered, that those interests were inseparably united); if they were to be placed under the control, the despotic control, of those Unions, then he would say, that no trade could be carried on, in any part of the country, where such a system was suffered to prevail. The petitioners wished their Lordships to appoint a Committee, to inquire fully into this subject. How far it might be advisable to take such a step, it was not for him to say; but he could not help observing, that it would afford great satisfaction to that part of the country from which the petition emanated, if his Majesty's Government would give their attention to this subject, for the purpose, if possible, of organizing a more powerful and efficient police force. The constabulary force, as it was at present constituted, was not sufficient for effectual exertion in times of great exigency and great excitement. A more efficient police ought to be established to afford protection and assistance to the well-disposed, whenever acts of outrage and insubordination occurred. As to the employment of the military on occasions of this kind, he knew that of late years an opinion had gone forth, that they ought not to act except in the presence of a Magistrate. Now, he believed the law to be, that in case of any flagrant and decided violation of the peace, a military officer, whose duty it was to preserve the peace as far as he could, had a right to interfere, though no magistrate might happen to be present. In his opinion, a soldier was as much bound to give his assistance in putting down outrage and riot, as any other citizen in the country. Having said thus much, he would recommend the petition to the serious consideration of their Lordships; and he should move that it be read at length.
The Petition having been read,
Viscount Melbournesaid, that from all the information which he had received on this subject, he was sorry that he was compelled to confirm the statements of the noble Lord. The observations which the noble Lord had made to the House were undoubtedly founded on fact. Concessions had been made by the owners and lessees of coal-mines to the workmen employed by them, but those concessions had only given rise to more exorbitant and unreasonable demands. It was impossible not to concur in the truth of the statements contained in the petition; and
1156
certainly, the interest of those who now applied to the House ought not to be allowed to be sacrificed, in the manner which had been described, by the conduct of those who ought to be actuated by very different feelings. He could not avoid expressing his deep and serious regret at that system of combination and of intimidation which at present existed throughout the country. It reared its front in so audacious, open, and violent a manner, throughout the manufacturing districts, as was truly alarming. And what was the effect of that pernicious system? It was injurious to the manufacturers, it was injurious to the trade and commerce of the country generally; but it was more particularly and decidedly injurious to the interests of the misguided workmen them selves. Those individuals attempted to do that which practical men knew could not be effected; they endeavoured to regulate that which could not be regulated; they wished to settle the rate of wages upon one particular footing, when every person who thought on the subject must see, that the rate of wages must be regulated by the quantity of labour in the market, and by the demand which existed for it. To suppose that a permanent rate of wages could, under all circumstances, be secured to those individuals, was downright folly. Yet that principle had been promulgated, and the passions of those people had, in consequence, been inflamed; their feelings had been excited; and, strange to say, many of them suffered themselves to be impoverished—for what? Why, to support the idle and the profligate, who refused to work on the terms which were proffered to them. They sought an object which they never could attain; and, even if they were successful, the extravagant rise of wages could be but temporary. But, even supposing that it would be permanent, it could scarcely compensate the losses of those who had taken an active part in this proceeding. He entirely agreed with his noble friend in the opinion, that such a system was calculated to impoverish every part of the country in which it prevailed. He was very sorry to find, that this pernicious system was rapidly communicated from one part of the country to another. His noble friend must be aware—more, perhaps, than any other man—that the old Combination laws, which were repealed in 1824, had a very salutary effect in putting down con-

1157
spiracies of this description. The subject was a highly important one, and he could assure his noble friend, that every attention would be paid by his Majesty's Government to the statements contained in the petition. No effort should be spared by his Majesty's Government to correct the evils and abuses which grew out of this system of combination. He believed that, in the places more particularly alluded to, there was a sufficient military force to prevent violence and outrage. With respect to the proposition for enlarging the police force, he believed that no difficulty existed to prevent the establishment of such an efficient force, so far as respected the procuring individuals who would be willing to serve in it. The great difficulty, he believed, would be, to find persons willing to bear the additional expense which would be attendant on it. If his Majesty's Ministers were convinced that the inhabitants of the north of England were ready to assent to such a plan, they would at once concur in the measure. He would, however, recommend, that in any such proceeding, due attention should be paid to the discretion, opinion, and recommendation of Magistrates, who were on the immediate spot.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, the noble Viscount had observed, that Ministers feared, if they proposed a new system of police for those districts which were mentioned in the petition, that the inhabitants would be unwilling to bear the expense. Now, a former Administration, in proposing the metropolitan police system, had not been deterred by any such considerations. They acted entirely on the necessity of the case. A notification, on the subject of a general system of police, had been made at the commencement of the session. In the Speech delivered by his Majesty at the opening of the Session, an allusion was made to this very point; and they had no right to suppose that the subject would have been introduced in the King's Speech unless Ministers had considered of it, and were ready to come forward with some specific proposition. Not a word, however, had they heard on the subject since. In his mind, they had not acted as they ought to have done, when, through the medium of his Majesty's speech, they called the attention of the House to this subject, without having themselves, in the first instance, maturely considered all its bearings. Ministers would not, he contended, be
1158
fulfilling their duty, if they did not bring forward a measure for the preservation of the peace in all large towns, and more especially in those great and populous districts where the public tranquillity had been recently violated.
Viscount Melbournegave to the last Administration full credit for their exertions in forming an efficient metropolitan police, but he was sure that the noble Lord himself must see the very great difficulty that was connected with a plan having for its object the formation of a general police for the whole country.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that every disposition was felt by his Majesty's Ministers to redeem the pledge on the subject of a general system of police, which had been given at the commencement of the Session. A measure of that nature had been, and still was, under consideration; but the difficulties and objections that were opposed to it, many of them of a local nature, were infinitely greater than noble Lords seemed to suppose.
Lord Wynfordsaid, he was sure that the present Ministers could never suffer corporation privileges to stand in the way of the preservation of peace and tranquillity, for which corporations were established.
Lord Ellenboroughhoped, whatever measure was introduced, that this pervading principle should not be lost sight of—namely, that the police appointments should rest on the responsibility of his Majesty's Government.
Lord Hollandwas of opinion, that the suggestion of the noble Lord was not intended to facilitate the carrying any new measure speedily into effect.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that unless his suggestions were acted on, any measure of police would be nugatory.
Petition laid on the Table.