Sitting of 28 June 1832

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a third time:—Union of Parishes (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By Mr. EWART, from Dudley; and by Mr. BLAMIRE, from Bainbridge and Broughton,—for a Revision of the Criminal Code, and Abolishing the Punishment of Death.—By Sir ANDREW AGNEW, from Lambeth; and by Mr. G. DUDLEY RYDER, from Chichester and Campden,—for a better observance of the Lord's Day; and by the latter HON. MEMBER, from four Places, against Political Unions, and the Irish Reform Mr. JAMES E. GORDON, from Ballinrobe, against the Ministerial Plan of Education (Ireland).By Mr. O'CONNELL, from the Lambeth Political Union, against the Privileges of Parliament Bill; and from three Places in Ireland, for the Abolition of Tithes.—By Mr. WARBURTON, from Mr. Smith Hall, against Restrictions on the Press in New South Wales.

CASE OF THE BOY SCOTT.
Mr. O'Connellbegged to call the attention of the hon. Under-Secretary for the Home Department to an account which appeared in The Times of Tuesday, of a transaction which had taken place at the Thames Police Office. A man named William Stitch had been brought before the Magistrates, on a charge of flogging a boy, named John Scott, and never had there been an instance of greater brutality exhibited, than that which the account in The Times purported to give. The boy's person had been examined, and the Magistrates expressed their horror at what they saw, and a certificate was handed to the Magistrates, of this tenor:—'I certify that I have this day, June 23, examined John Scott, and I find his back, sides,
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shoulders, and arms, much bruised and wounded, from severe flogging with a rope. The appearances are such as could only have been inflicted by severe and most brutal means.—J. SHERWIN, Surgeon, Greenwich.' Now, if this report were true, and that the Magistrates had not apprised the lad that the proper means of proceeding were not criminally but by action, they had not done well; for, by not giving him this information, the boy lost all right of action at law, inasmuch as the certificate of the Magistrate, of the infliction of a fine of 5l. and costs, which had taken place in this instance, could be pleaded under the Statute in bar to any action for the same assault. More-over, the 5l. penalty did not go to the party injured, but to the county-rates. If, then, it were true that the magistrates had neglected to give the boy this information, and leave him his option, they had been, in his (Mr. O'Connell's) opinion, guilty of a gross dereliction of their duty, for this was the case of a boy of only fourteen years of age, and totally ignorant of his rights under the law. He wished to know, as he had given the hon. Gentleman notice of this question, whether any inquiry had been made into the facts of this case.
Mr. Lambregretted, that owing to an accident, he had not been able to communicate with the Magistrates who were present. However, he had seen some of those who were present, and bating for some small exaggeration of expression, he did not believe that the brutality of the case had been overstated. But, if the matter were properly considered, it would, he thought, be seen that the Magistrates were chargeable, not from any misconduct on their part, but from the defect of the law. This was a very poor boy, without any parent or friend, save a mother in a miserable state of poverty; and, in all probability, the Magistrates had, for this reason, imposed the highest penalty it was in their power to inflict, for fear that otherwise this crime might altogether escape with impunity. Supposing, for instance, that they had bound over the boy and his mother to prosecute, it was more than probable that they would never appear at the Quarter Sessions, and, instead of paying a penalty of 5l., the criminal might not suffer any punishment at all. He agreed with the hon. member for Kerry, that the magistrates ought to have informed the boy of the law, and he hoped they had

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done so; but of that he could not assert any thing, as he did not know what their conduct in this respect had been. They seemed, however, to have done all that was in their power, and finding that the boy was an apprentice, they had given directions that he should on no account go back to the same vessel, but that the officers should look out for another to place him on board of. If the hon. Gentleman was not satisfied with this explanation, he should make further inquiry.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that his attention had been drawn to the case by a highly respectable professional man, who had declared, were it not for this penalty, the boy should have the means of obtaining adequate remuneration for his sufferings. The course which he (Mr. O'Connell) intended to pursue, should he have a seat in the House in a future Session, would be, to bring in a bill to take away the power of pleading the Magistrates' certificate in bar of a civil action, but leaving it in full force so as to prevent a double prosecution.
Subject dropped.

COLONY OF NEW SOUTH WALES.
Mr. Henry Lytton Bulwerpresented the Petition of the Free Inhabitants of New South Wales, for the introduction into that colony of Trial by Jury, and for a Representative Assembly.
Ordered to be printed.
The hon. Member proceeded to bring under the notice of the House a Motion on the subject, and said, notwithstanding the support which he received from the petition which he had just laid upon the Table, he confessed that he felt considerable reluctance in first undertaking to bring forward the present Motion. It was so natural for hon. Gentlemen to imagine, that a young man would enter the House with all that fervour and eagerness of imagination, which would at once induce him to grasp at every theory that proffered freedom, without considering the relative nature of that word, its varying and doubtful signification—dependant on time—on circumstances—on the local and social position of the people to whom it might be applied; he was so fully sensible that a youthful inexperience might naturally and fairly be identified with a kind of visionary enthusiasm, that he felt anxious, a little for his own sake, but more particularly for the sake of the colonists, that their case should be in the
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hands of one possessing a longer standing in the House, and a more established character. But as he went further into the case, and he had spared no pains to do so, he felt so strengthened at every step by practical and important facts, by sound and indisputable authority, that all his hesitation ceased, feeling perfectly confident that, if the House would but indulge him with some portion of its attention, he should be able to convince it, that there never was a request made to it, founded on more legitimate ground, supported by more solid and sober argument, than that of the New South Wales petitioners. He stopped for a moment to notice a prejudice which existed to a limited, but still to a certain extent, in respect to the colony in question. Having first been occupied solely by a few convicts, the idea arising from former associations was almost involuntarily present to the minds of many when they heard it spoken of. A name was frequently of much importance; and, notwithstanding the many attempts which had been made by the colonists themselves to cover their former history under the various and somewhat magnificent appellations of New South Wales, Australia, and Australasia, the more homely name of Botany still stuck to them, and to it was attached the notion of a small penal settlement, exclusively inhabited by thieves and pickpockets. In order at once to remove this prejudice—in order to convince the House that the colony of New South Wales was fairly worthy of their consideration, as well as fully justified in its present petition, he would mention a few statistical details, to which he earnestly intreated hon. Gentlemen's attention:—There were grown in New South Wales, hemp, flax, tobacco, and sugar. Its principal exports were, timber, wool, and whale-oil; more particularly the two latter. Of wool, then, there were exported in 1822, 172,880lbs.; and in 1829, 1,005,883lbs; being six times as much as in the former period. So in the whale fishery; in 1825 it employed three vessels; and in 1831 it employed twenty-five vessels; having increased in six years to eight times the number.

The Imports in 1828 were

£570,000

And in 1829

601,000

Increase

£31,000

The Exports in 1828 were

90,050

And in 1829

161,716

£71,666

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An increase of more than one-half. The number of ships entering Port Jackson alone in 1829, were 161, of 37,342 tons burden. The Revenue up to the 1st of January, 1829, as given in the Appendix to the Report on Australian Colonies, was 102,577 l. 14 s. 2¾3d.

£

s.

d.

Balance in Treasury

11,216

8

3¾

Fixed Revenue

82,456

1

6¾

Incidental ditto

8,905

4

4½

£102,577

14

2¾

Of which above 80,000 l. was taxation. In regard to the population, there seemed a most singular uncertainty. According to the returns of 1828, the amount was 36,598. Out of this population, 15,666 were convicts; leaving 20,930 free inhabitants. But by referring to the population returns of preceding years, it was found that in 1824, the population was 33,595; so that the whole population had only increased by about 3,000 in the five years. Now the population in those five years had, according to our lists of the persons transported, been increased by convicts alone, 10,005. To make, therefore, the census of 1828 correct, the free inhabitants must have decreased in these five years by about 7,000, a proposition perfectly absurd. In the year 1828, Mr. Huskisson stated the total population to be 49,000; it could not have suddenly decreased between the return and this assertion by 13,000. Take, then, this calculation of Mr. Huskisson as correct, since, in regard to the number of convicts stated, namely, 15,666, there could not be any error, the free population would then have amounted to 33,334. The colonists themselves stated it much higher. Instead, then, of this colony being an insignificant and guilty spot, without wealth, capability, or importance, and inhabited only by a few outcasts of society, it possessed vast and daily increasing resources; it contained a large population of free Englishmen; the products of every country in the world, within the temperate and torrid zone, might be cultivated there; the stream of our stifled and dammed-up state of civilization might be profitably directed thither, whilst with these real and immediate advantages, was connected the magnificent idea, that through this colony we possessed the means of spreading the British language, and for a while the British empire, to as wide an extent to the East, as our colonies
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had carried it to the West. But it was not only on account of these circumstances, interesting as they were, that he had come forward as the advocate of the colonists of New South Wales. Stories had reached this country of the most atrocious acts of injustice and misrule. They had heard of persons illegally transported, who had been solemnly acquitted by a Court of Justice. Tales, however monstrous they might appear, of the application of the torture, had reached our ears. It would be unjust to believe them on ex parte evidence; but when he heard them talked of in society, mentioned in that House, promulgated everywhere by public rumour, he did feel the deepest disgust and abhorrence, not that any person should have committed such misdeeds, for he could not as yet believe that they had been committed, but that any person within the limits of the British dominions should have possessed a power which could render it possible for him to be accused of having committed them. Wherever extraordinary power was given, an extraordinary temptation would exist to misconduct; and no such power, therefore, ought ever to be given, except where there was to the full as strong a proof of its necessity, as there was a probability of its abuse. Now, according to the present system, the governor of New South Wales had the power of levying taxes on the importation of all goods—of disposing of the whole revenue of the colony; the distribution of convict labour, so important in such a colony, was subject to his decision; he could accord a pardon for all offences; he had assumed the right of suspending all public functionaries from their employments; he could actually enforce laws which the Judges might declare repugnant to the laws of England, and dispose of places to more than the amount of 20,000 l. a year. The only control to this authority—if control it could be called—was a Council sitting with closed doors, and consisting of fifteen members, eight of whom sat ex officio, while seven were named by the Government here, according to the recommendation of the Governor in the colony. With this extraordinary authority was coupled an almost equally extraordinary facility for abusing it with impunity. If any free colonist was anxious to petition the Government at home, he had to send his petition through the Governor, who subjoined his answer and defence, which

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the petitioner had no opportunity of seeing. Now, when hon. Gentlemen considered the advantages, not only of having the last word, but of knowing also the person and the tone and language which would suit the person to be addressed, they would see it could be little less than a miracle which could make a petitioner successful. At all events, during the time which it was necessary to wait for an answer, almost twelve months, he remained exposed to the full weight of the Governor's displeasure, who might force his cattle to perish from drought—who could deprive hint of the labour of his servants, or withdraw from him any official post or advantage of which he might be possessed. It was as some check to a power of this description that the colony petitioned for Legislative Assemblies and Trial by Jury. In regard to Trial by Jury under the existing system, the Court in all civil cases consisted of a Judge and two Magistrates, from which either of the parties might appeal to a Civil Jury, which the Judge might either grant or refuse; but in all criminal cases the Jury consisted of seven military officers, practically chosen by the Governor, and paid by the Governor while employed in this kind of service. By a regulation of the late Colonial Secretary, it had been determined, that, in all cases where the Governor was directly concerned, that there a civil Jury should be granted; but it was needless to point out the difficulty of deciding upon such cases, since it might frequently happen, that the Governor was deeply concerned in a case in which he did not appear by name. But this was a question, not between the Governor and the accused, but between the law and the free colonist, who demanded as an Englishman, as his hereditary right, that ancient institution, so peculiarly his own as to have been called the characteristic of the British race, distinguishing them from every other branch of the human species; and why was he refused this? Did other colonies, possessing a similar population, not enjoy it? There were twelve colonies—Jamaica, the Bahamas, Barbadoes, St. Vincent, Grenada, Tobago, Dominica, Montserrat, Nevis, St. Kitts, Tortola, and Antigua, with only one-quarter of the number of free inhabitants of New South Wales, which possessed both Legislative Assemblies and Trial by Jury. Was there anything so extraordinary, then, in the state of society in New South Wales as to render it neces-
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sary to make it an exception to the general rule? It might be said, that if you grant the privilege of being a Juror to a free colonist, you cannot withhold it from an emancipist, and that an emancipist would not be a proper person to sit in judgment upon a free colonist; but the number of emancipists possessing the property necessary for the qualification of a Juryman was small in proportion to the other free inhabitants; so that no evil of any consequence could result from this; and, indeed, in those cases where Trial by Jury was allowed, and where colonists and emancipists sit together, no objection was made. This, in fact, seemed a good method of uniting and amalgamating the two classes. But, if any objection existed as to an emancipist sitting as Juryman upon a free colonist, was there no objection to an officer in the army, a man nicely sensitive on all points of honour and character, sitting in judgment on an emancipist or a convict? Would not all the habits and dispositions of this officer induce him to regard the individual before him—an individual who had once been convicted of crime—with disgust and abhorrence. Would he not condemn him at once by his feelings, before his reason had time to pass a sentence? As to the practical working of the present system, it appeared from documents he held in his hand, that while the law had become more severe by the facility with which conviction was procured, a corresponding increase had taken place in crime:—There were

130 Convictions in 1820

136 Convictions in 1822

217 Convictions in 1828

266 Convictions in 1829

278 Convictions in 1830

'Nor is it easy to conjecture,' said a gentleman learned in the law, and long resident in New South Wales, 'what will be the result of this almost geometrical progression in the rigour of punishments and continued contemporaneous increase of crime. Pending the process which has actually taken place in New South Wales in three years, murders, which were seven in number in 1828, increased to eleven in 1830; unnatural crimes increased at the rate of 150 percent; and rapes at the rate of 300 per cent during the same period of time'. In proof of what he had said, as to the impropriety of officers sitting in judgment on convicts and emancipists, he had a letter in the hand-writing

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of the foreman of a Jury, found in the Jury-box, of which he could not avoid reading the last sentence:—"Seven officers to be kept kicking their heels in a Court, doing nothing for five or six hours, about the damned rascally convicts." This was the spirit with which the foreman of this military Jury had been sitting in judgment on the life of a fellow-creature. But, even supposing the ends of justice were equally answered, were the forms of justice to be considered nothing? They were everything to men distant from their country. These forms spoke to them of the history of their forefathers—of that which was still passing near their ancient homes—of the early habits and recollections of their youth—of the antique liberty and of all those things which had descended to them—and which Justice, arrayed in such forms as these, had, through various storms and revolutions of the State, triumphantly defended. Now, what was the class of persons wanted in the colony? Not wealthy men, in that situation of society which rendered it impossible for them to be dragged into a Court of Justice. What the colony wanted was the poor mechanic—the poor husbandman, whom suspicion and poverty might place, even when innocent, in this situation. If such a person as this were to land at Sydney and to go into a Court of Justice, he would see the Judge sitting upon the Bench arrayed in his ordinary robes; the prisoner would be at the bar, the Counsel in attendance; everything would wear the solemn and citizen-like appearance he had been accustomed to in his native country, till his eye fell upon the Jury-box. The very appearance of the military uniform, so odious to Englishmen when displayed on civil occasions—the notion which, whether justly or unjustly, prevailed in respect to military men—their recklessness and levity, their want of seriousness and of religion—the idea arising from their profession, that they were careless of the spilling of human blood—these things, and the thoughts arising from these things, would shock and startle him when he saw seven officers sitting in judgment, with their swords beside them, on the life of a fellow-citizen. The Englishman who saw this, and who felt that he might be placed in the situation of the prisoner at the bar would not think his life safe under such a system. He would either immediately quit the colony, or, if he could
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not do this, he would enter into immediate hostility against a Government which sanctioned acts so contrary to his habits and feelings. At all events, would it not be wise to be consistent? If it was intended to keep New South Wales as a penal settlement, to restrain or drive back the tide of emigration we had been directing thither, our policy would be intelligible, if it were nothing better. But was it right, could it be right, when we were actually giving a premium to emigration, and doubting whether we should send out any more convicts there at all, to adhere pertinaciously to a system so hostile and odious to free settlers? But what the House would most look to would be, the practicability of the measure he was advocating, and the authorities in support of it. In 1811, before the Transportation Committee, then sitting—
'Governor Hunter, formerly Governor of this colony, says, there are many respectable families gone from England, which induced me to recommend to Government to make a change in the mode of trial in the Courts there, and to introduce the Trial by Jury there; there are so many decent people there now, they may change their Juries as often as they please; there are a great many decent people there who are fit to serve on Juries.'
Again—'Were there a sufficient number of such people in the colony before you left it?—There were.
And did that number appear to you to be annually increasing?—Yes; I thought so.
Mr. J. Palmer, Commissary-General: Is it the wish of the inhabitants to have a Jury instituted?—Yes; of every one.
Did it appear to you that there was a sufficient number of respectable inhabitants to establish a Trial by Jury?—Yes, there are a great number of free settlers now.
Is that respectable part of the society increasing?—Yes, there are a great many families and children.
Governor Bligh (1808): Did it appear to you that there were a number of settlers sufficient in the colony to furnish Juries?—Yes.
And of characters sufficiently good to enable you to place reliance upon them?—Yes; and I think their decisions would have been fairer than those that took place without them.'

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In confirmation of these various authorities the Committee stated, that it was their opinion 'that the manner of administering criminal justice may be altered with great advantage to the colony. It is not to be expected that its inhabitants should view otherwise than with jealousy and discontent, a system which resembles rather a court-martial than the mode of trial the advantages of which they have been accustomed to see and to enjoy in their own country.'* * * 'A numerous class of respectable persons is now formed within the settlement, amply sufficient to warrant the establishment of that Trial by Jury, for which they were anxiously wishing.' Nor were these his only authorities: when he looked to this House, he found in 1823, that—'Sir Thomas Denman contended against the policy of appointing officers in the army and navy to decide questions on which property, liberty, and even life might depend. He would give the colonists the advantage of Jury Trial, as in England.' * On the words a "Jury of twelve men, duly qualified to serve," being proposed in lieu of officers in the army and navy, a division took place: among the minority were Denman, D. Gilbert, J. C. Hobhouse, D. Ricardo, T. S. Rice, J. Scarlett, W. Wilberforce, Mackintosh. There was one gentleman whom he had still to speak of—a gentleman whom the colonists could never think of but with gratitude, whom he could never speak of but with reverence—a gentleman whom he could never more see in his place—whose splendid eloquence, whose generous spirit, whose extended and philosophic views, would long be in the remembrance of those who heard him. It was four years ago since the late member for Knaresborough had presented a petition, nearly similar to that which he had that evening presented, and if he had had no other authority, this authority alone he should have considered sufficient on a legislative and colonial question. Thus far, then, he had shown that twelve other colonies possessed both Trial by Jury and legislative assemblies, for which New South Wales was then petitioning. While, as far as the former was concerned, he had the authority of the Committee on Transportation, in 1811, among whom were the names of Sir S. Romilly, Mr. Abercromby, Mr. Secretary Ryder, Mr. Brand, Lord Grenville,
* Hansard (new series) vol. ix. p. 1452.
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Mr. Goulburn, Sir Robert Peel, and Mr. Horner. In 1823, he had also the authority of Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Spring Rice, Sir John Cam Hob-house, Mr. D. Gilbert, Sir Thomas Denman, and Sir James Mackintosh; so also that of Admiral Hunter, Admiral Bligh, Sir Thomas Brisbane, the two Judges (Forbes and Stephen), Governor Macquarrie, all of whom had lived and held situations in this colony. He had all these authorities against New South Wales being made an exception to the other colonies he had mentioned; while, more than all this there existed the authority of an increase of crime to the amount of 100, 130, and 300 per cent against the present system; there he should leave the question as far as it concerned Trial by Jury. The second part of this subject which he had now to introduce to the House, and on which the petitioners hardly set less value than on that in which he trusted he had succeeded, was, the grant of a legislative assembly; or, at all events, the recognition in that colony of the principles of Representation. At the distance at which Members were divided by an immensity of ocean from this colony, perplexed by a variety of testimony, most difficult, indeed, was it to determine whether, in any degree, and if so, in what degree, the prayer of the petitioners ought to be complied with. No one, he thought, would dispute the general proposition, which he would not take up the time of the House by expatiating upon. No one would dispute the general policy of diminishing the distance between ourselves and our colonies by an approachment of laws and of customs which proceeded from laws, by the establishment of that connection, the closest we could invent—a similarity of habits and of thought, proceeding from a similarity of institutions. But, in fairly confessing that he was not one of those who contended that any rule, however excellent in general, admitted of a blind universality of practice, he still did contend, that if a rule were generally applicable, it would not he with him to show the propriety of its present application, but with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Howick) to convince the House that it could not safely and properly be applied in this instance. What were the principles on which Representation rested? Population and taxation. Here was a colony unrepresented, possessing a popula-

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tion four times more numerous than the whole population taken together of twelve colonies which had legislative assemblies. Here was a colony with a revenue of above 100,000 l. per year, and which actually yielded in taxes more than the United States of America did prior to their revolution. But the noble Lord might say, that the state of society was very peculiar in that colony. This he granted, and he said, from this very circumstance, that it was peculiarly objectionable to send out a Governor from this country with arbitrary power over a curiously amalgamated population, with the singular combination of which, uniting the most singular combination of passions and feelings it was possible to conceive, he must be totally and wholly unacquainted; but a powerful government was required for the preservation of property in a country, a great proportion of the population of which were professionally thieves. This he granted also, and he said, that a powerful government for the preservation of property was a government in which the great bulk of persons possessing property was enlisted; that, in short, from all that could be said on this subject, he would appeal to the petition he had laid upon the Table, and would say, that as every government must be unwise, so every government must be weak, against which was arrayed so numerous and respectable a portion of its subjects as those whose names were affixed to that petition. After what he had stated, he did think that those who opposed the measure ought rather to prove that it was not possible, than that he should be called upon to prove its practicability. This he would do, however. According to the returns made in 1827 of those persons then qualified to serve on Grand and Petty Juries at Quarter Sessions, it appeared that

Sydney had

406

Paramatta

220

Newcastle

131

Windsor

268

Liverpool

74

1,099

In these five districts, then, there was a respectable constituency of 1,100—of whom he understood from gentlemen acquainted with them, there were about 120 emancipists. He believed, moreover, that hon. Members would find among this number upwards of 100 who possessed
1100
more than 500 l. per ann., in which number twenty might be emancipists. From these persons surely a respectable body might be chosen, nor could the emancipists, in so small a proportion in the electing body and the body to be elected, obtain a share in the Legislature improper to assign them. Their influence, indeed, would become much less when the remaining districts were included of Hunter's River, Bathurst, Campbell Town, Argyll, which were composed almost entirely of free settlers. Here, then, were all the elements, he repeated, which could possibly be desired for Representation. But if there might be some difficulties, some inconveniences in working out the change he suggested, was there no spot nor blemish in the present system? Had that been immaculate from all inconveniences and evils? Had there been no barbarous enactments against the Press, to which the Government here was obliged to refuse its sanction? No unjust prosecutions against the Press, which, though supported by a military tribunal, had been reversed by a civil Jury? Was it a fact—he asked for information—that Mr. Hall was actually in prison for five sentences which had been passed upon him by the military court at the same time that he received damages for these very sentences by a civil Jury? Had convicts never been illegally and violently withdrawn from the persons to whom they had been assigned contrary to the solemn opinion of the Judges? Had lands been distributed without favour; or was it a fact, that in the grant of lands in Elizabeth Cove, fifty-four acres, comprising the whole bay frontage, and six times as much as any accorded to any other individuals, were given to one person. Were these things true? But supposing them to be exaggerated and misrepresented—and it was fair, perhaps, at this moment, so to suppose them—was there no evil, no inconvenience, in Members being daily assailed here by the most incredible stories proceeding from the most credible authorities, without the possibility, by referring to the general acts of a popularly elected assembly in the colony, to know whether such stories were really the complaints of much oppressed persons, or the wicked inventions of malicious accusers. He could assure the House that he felt the difficulty in his own person of the situation in which this circumstance had placed him. But even on the

1101
grounds of economy alone, setting aside, for the moment, every other argument—he conceived on the grounds of economy alone, that a change in the government of New South Wales was loudly called for. By a Parliamentary Return, No. 587, of 1830, it appeared that no less than 10,962 l. 2s. 6d. was received by military men, either by way of pension, or for performing civil duties, in addition to their regimental pay. It also appeared from the same documents, that 750 l. a-year pension was granted to the Colonial Secretary, in addition to 2,000 l. per annum, and other perquisites, which pension, though received for services here, was paid out of the colonial revenue. The commissariat expenses, he was confidently assured, had alone increased in salaries to clerks from 5,000 l. per ann. since the time when both Sydney and Van Diemen's Land were united, to 10,000 l.a-year for the former colony alone, in the space of less than five years. The police establishment increased in the space of four years—namely, from 1825 to 1828, more than double—being in 1825, 8,945 l. 8s. 2d.; and in 1828, 20,556 l. 8s. 2½d.; while the population according to the Parliamentary Returns, at least, was increased from 1824 to 1829 by only 3,000 individuals, but these were the details which the hon. member for Middlesex would, in all probability, expatiate upon. He had most sincerely to apologize for the length of time he had occupied the House. But he felt that he had been speaking not only for a specific case, but against a general system. There was hardly any writer on colonial policy who had not deeply lamented the unfortunate jealousy we had ever shown in giving those civil advantages to our colonies of which we were so justly proud ourselves. During the short time he had been in that House, he had heard more frequent propositions made to withdraw commercial advantages and protections from our colonies, to which he was perhaps not opposed, than for giving them legislative improvements; the House had frequently complained of their cost; it would have done better by allowing them the management of their own resources. If the House meant the colonies to pay for themselves, it must allow them to govern themselves; it must get rid of that Downing-street Administration, so ably satirized by Swift, in his picture of a tailor measuring a man in the moon by
1102
the aid of a telescope. It had been by the long train of evils, a wrong sytem of governing our colonies had engendered, that the commencement of a belief had been induced—which was of the most serious nature—namely, that we might as well be without any colonies at all. It was on this account—on this account alone—that he thought the House was bound to give attention to such subjects as that now before them. But if such attention was demanded from all, more particularly might it be demanded from those who, like himself, had been the advocates of a measure, which, whatever might be its advantages—and great, he believed its advantages would be—would have the immediate effect of removing from the House many of those Gentlemen who had been the most talented and able supporters of the colonies. Most frankly, then, did he say, that it was incumbent on himself and all Reformers to show that their protestations had not been mere vulgar verbiage—to prove that they had really and sincerely believed that which they had so loudly asserted—namely, that public sympathy would supply the place of private interest, and that every British subject, in the most remote corner of our possessions, would find a ready defender in a Member of Parliament, fairly and freely chosen by the people of great Britain. "And now again to apologize (said the hon. Member) for the length of my intrusion, may I be allowed to recall the attention of the House to the course of argument I have attempted to pursue? I have shown that this colony is of the utmost interest, and that it would possess, under a good system of Government, all the qualities which could invite to emigration; secondly, that the present government is a bad one, full of extravagances and abuses, and calculated from its arbitrary nature to be odious to free settlers. As a change, then, and improvement of this system, I have supported the prayer of the Petition for some species of Representative Assembly, and the full extension of Trial by Jury. In regard to the first, a Legislative Assembly, I have shown, that on the two principles on which Representation rests—taxation and population—New South Wales is eminently entitled to it. I have proved, moreover, that the colony possesses the materials for such an institution both as to an electing and to be elected body. I hope I have shown, in short, that no great practical in-

1103
conveniences lay in its way, and that great practical evils result from the want of it—an enormous expenditure, and a variety of complaints, of which it is impossible to decide upon the justice, when there is no respectable body by whom they might be publicly discussed in the colony itself. In regard to the second object of the petition, Trial by Jury, I think that I have proved, not only that New South Wales affords a most singular exception to our other colonies in this particular, but, that the first practical authorities who have visited this colony, as well as the most able Gentlemen in this House, have declared, that they saw no reason for keeping it as such an exception. In 1811, the Transportation Committee, with Sir S. Romilly—in 1823 many Gentlemen opposite, among whom was the present Attorney-General—were of my present opinion. So that instead of being rash or presumptuous in my desires, I am only asking in 1832 for what it was considered by many of sober judgment, and high authority, wise and prudent to concede in 1823 and in 1812. While, as a still further and stronger evidence against the existing system, I can show by an enormous increase of convictions, and a proportionate increase of crime, that it is the more completely inefficient, the more rigidly it is enforced. Now surely, Sir, there is here a great moral and legislative lesson. In that colony, which is unrepresented, we find the severest taxation; in that colony which is without Trial by Jury, the most terrible increase in crime. We are now enlarging the basis of Representation in this country to its widest extent: shall we at the same time repudiate from our colonies its very first principles? We have lately been declaring by the Jury Consolidation Act, that no officer in the army or navy can act as a Juryman in England. Shall we now determine that only officers in the army or navy shall act as Jurymen in New South Wales? Let me entreat the noble Lord, whose name is another term for liberty in this country, to extend its synonymous signification to other and more distant shores. Let me entreat him not only to use those talents for debate which I know are his; let me entreat him also to have recourse to that spirit of conciliation so necessary to a Statesman and a Legislator. Let me entreat him, in short, not to refuse the prayer of the petitioners, unless he can give a strong proof of the
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unreasonableness of their demands, as I trust, perhaps improperly, they have given of their policy and their justice. The hon. Member concluded by moving an Address to his Majesty to give the colony of New South Wales a Legislative Assembly and the Trial by Jury.
Mr. Robinsonseconded the Motion. After the statement which had been made by his hon. friend, the onus probandi lay on the noble Lord to show that there was something peculiar in the colony of New South Wales, which rendered it necessary to continue in that colony a system so opposite to the Constitution, so arbitrary, and so liable to abuse. The only difference between New South Wales and other colonies was, that it was originally a penal colony; but the question was, whether a change had not taken place in the circumstances of the colony since its establishment, which warranted the improvements recommended by his hon. friend? With respect to one of them—the Trial by Jury—he could see no reason whatever for entertaining the slightest doubt that its adoption would, in every respect, be highly beneficial; for—
Lord Howickbegged to be permitted to observe, that within the last four days, despatches had been received from the Governor of New South Wales, by which it appeared, that in pursuance of authority which he had received from his Majesty's Government, previous to his leaving this country, he had announced to the colony that Juries would shortly be established in criminal cases. He stated this for the information of the hon. member for Worcester; and he had not stated it during the speech of the hon. member for Coventry, because he knew that that hon. Member was aware of the fact.
Mr. Robinsonstill thought, that means should be taken to assimilate the institutions of the colony of New South Wales, in all respects, as far as it was practicable, to the institutions of our other colonies. He allowed that he did not believe that representative bodies, like those in the West-India colonies, were as yet altogether fit for New South Wales; but, he thought that the time had arrived when that colony ought to possess something like a representative body. At all events, he protested against the injustice and inexpediency of considering New South Wales in the light of a penal colony longer than circumstances might render necessary.
Lord Howickcongratulated the House, that the observations which he should feel it necessary to make upon this subject would occupy but a very few minutes. The chief point urged by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Address was, in point of fact, as he (Lord Howick) had incidentally intimated, already practically settled. Previous to the appointment of the new governor of New South Wales, inquiries had been instituted, and witnesses examined, as to the practicability of allowing the Trial by Jury in that colony. The opinions given, and the evidence elicited upon that point, were, however, of so very contradictory and conflicting a nature, that it was found impossible to come to any clear or definite conclusion upon the question in this country. On the appointment of the new Governor, therefore, he was authorized, immediately on his arrival in the colony, to take the subject into his consideration, and to report his opinion upon it. Acting upon that authority, the Governor instituted an inquiry into the subject, and the result of that inquiry was such as to lead him to make it known to the inhabitants of the colony, that the Government at home would extend to them the boon that they required, and that, from the beginning of the next year, they might expect the system of Trial by Jury to be acted upon. That being the case, he (Lord Howick) hoped that the hon. Member would not think it necessary to press his Motion upon a point which was, in fact, already decided upon. The second point urged by the hon. Gentleman was of rather an extraordinary character. The hon. Gentleman called upon the House to recommend to his Majesty to grant to the colony of New South Wales, not a representative assembly, but something like a representation. Now he (Lord Howick) certainly did not know what he was to understand by the expression "something like a representative assembly." If direct representation were not given, he could not understand what possible benefit could be derived from the semblance of a representation. He begged, however, to disclaim any hostility towards the representative system. On the contrary, he was convinced that the most permanent and the happiest state of society, that in which civilization and refinement were capable of being carried to the highest point, was a state that was founded on a
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system of representation. He begged also to disclaim the other supposition of the hon. Gentleman, that his Majesty's Government were jealous of the colonies, and were indisposed to extend to the colonies the privileges enjoyed by the mother country. If this were really the case, the present would be a peculiarly ill-timed moment for manifesting such a feeling; having ourselves just acquired so many valuable rights. None could be more fully impressed than his Majesty's Government were with the truth, that it ought to be their object to make the colonies great and flourishing communities, with whom the mother country could carry on an extensive and valuable trade. They were anxious to spread the English name and race as extensively as possible over the whole world. In the case of New South Wales, however, there were some difficulties. The hon. Gentleman must know that there existed in that country a strong animosity between those classes of the inhabitants who had been sent thither for their offences, and those classes who had voluntarily gone thither. A constant struggle—exhibiting itself, among other ways, in admission to, or exclusion from, dinners, balls, &c.—was going on between those who had been once convicts, or who were the descendants of convicts, and those who were wholly untainted. Of whom was the proposed representative body to be composed? The hon. Member had given no decided opinion on the point; but he (Lord Howick) collected from what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman, that he was inclined to communicate the elective and the representative franchise to the emancipists; and to give them, in all respects, an equality of civil rights with the free settlers. That was a startling proposition; and, if it were adopted, it would give to the emancipists a paramount influence in the legislature of the colony. The hon. Gentleman, perhaps, was not aware of the great difference which existed between the numbers of the free settlers and free children born in the colony, and the numbers of emancipated convicts. According to the last census, which was taken in the year 1828, it appeared, that at that time, the number of free settlers, and free children born in the colony, being males, and above the age of twelve years, was 4,484; whilst, on the other hand, the number of the emancipists was 6,137; and the number of convicts,

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many of whose terms of servitude had since expired, was 14,155. Besides this, during the years 1829 and 1830, no less than 6,839 other convicts had been transported to that colony. It was idle to suppose that the emancipated convict was debarred from gaining influence or power. To show how rapidly many of them became persons of importance, he would mention only one fact. The first letter that came into his hands, after he became connected with the government of the colonies, was one from a person named Girard, containing a complaint against General Darling, the Governor, for having ill-used him with respect to a contract. Upon inquiry as to who this Mr. Girard was, it appeared, that he had been a very respectable pickpocket in London, who was transported in the year 1811 for stealing a watch, and who, in 1829, had become the great contractor for the colony. This person was one of that class who, if the hon. Gentleman's proposition were acceded to, would certainly gain the upper hand in the government of the colony. He left it to the House to say, whether it would consent to transfer the welfare, the prosperity, and the happiness of the colony to the keeping of persons who had been expatriated for offences against the laws at home. If they were, one thing he would answer for it was, that whatever body controlled the representative assembly, would soon assume the government of the whole colony. It must inevitably be so, because, at such a distance, it would be impossible for the Government at home to render effectual assistance to its representative there. But perhaps the hon. Member, after all, did not mean to give representation to the emancipists; if so, he could assure the hon. Member that the petitioners would thank him but little for the pains which he had taken. There was a strong objection to giving representation exclusively to the free settlers, because, whatever respect he might have for them, he would not give any one class, particularly the least numerous, power over the other. He contended, that the great desire of the colonists for Juries justified their appointment. The hon. Member had talked of the severity of the Juries; but he had always understood, that a Jury had nothing to do with severity or clemency, but merely to deal with the fact. He viewed with horror the increase of crime to which the hon. Member had adverted, but he
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attributed that increase to the great number of male convicts who had been sent out, and not to the want of a representative government, or the severity of the military Juries. It was partly to be expected from the number of convicts—the refuse of society—and principally males, which had been continually sent out. Measures had been taken to diminish crime, and one of those measures was, to send out 600 females. Free settlers had also been encouraged. Allusion had been made to the revenue of the colony. In 1830 it was 107,873 l., and out of this sum no less than 76,000 l. was paid on spirits imported or distilled in the colony, and on tobacco. The tax on tobacco was 9,000 l., which was injudiciously imposed, at the request of the colonists themselves. In New South Wales the crying evil was, the consumption of spirituous liquors, and it had hitherto been the policy of the Government to make spirits as expensive as could be done, without giving rise to illicit distillation, or smuggling into the colony. Again, there was 5,100 l. reserved for fees for grants, and the other taxes were for licenses for cutting timber on the Crown lands, and for other purposes. The hon. Member, then, could not show any great legislative abuse, as connected with the revenue of the colony, and on that ground could make out no case to induce the House to assent to his Motion. The hon. Member, however, left out of consideration several important circumstances; he forgot that there was a Legislative Council of seven of the most respectable inhabitants of the colony—he forgot that every law passed by this Council must be published in The Gazette some time before it could be brought into operation, and that, as the Press was free to the fullest extent, any objectionable measure was liable to the most severe censure. Again, it must not escape recollection, that the authorities at home would instantly, on receiving intelligence of its enactment, disallow any improper law, and that, at the same time, every case of grievance was instantly attended to. The hon. Gentleman, indeed, chiefly complained of the want of Juries in criminal cases, and did not so much rely upon the claim of the colonies for a representative assembly. One of the arguments he urged for the latter was, that there was a system of favouritism prevailing in the colony. But surely the hon. Gentleman must be aware, that as long as

1109
there was an executive government, there must exist something of this, at least in appearance. The hon. Member said, that the Government possessed considerable power in consequence of being able to deprive an obnoxious settler of his convict-servants; but if the Governor did not possess the power of removing a convict-servant, great abuses would arise. It was obvious, that if this were riot the case, the rich thief would send money to the colony to purchase his freedom. As long as the old system existed, it was necessary that this power should continue, but a change had been made in the system, which might, to some extent, at least, lead to a change in this power. But then the hon. Member said, there had been partiality in the administration of the government. Why, if that charge were just, it was no fit foundation for the desires of the hon. Member. But it was not just. Before he sat down, he (Lord Howick) begged to observe, that for many of the most serious charges which had been brought against the late Governor Darling, subsequent inquiry had proved that there was not a shadow of foundation. It was now evident, that the whole of the virulence and calumny with which that gallant Officer had been assailed, arose from a suspicion in the minds of the colonists, of his having acted upon a system of favouritism, particularly in the distribution of convicts. It was not unnatural that such a suspicion should have existed, where the demand for convicts, whose labour was extremely valuable, so much exceeded the supply of which the Governor had to dispose. He believed, however, that General Darling had endeavoured, to the best of his abilities, to act honourably and fairly to all. The Government had now done away with grants of land. A free sale by public competition was adopted, and there could no longer be a charge of favouritism. With respect to the distribution of convicts, that point was not so easily arranged. Some steps, however, had been taken, and they were calculated to prevent the imputation of favouritism. Then the hon. Member had given another reason why a legislative assembly should be given to the colony, and that reason was, the impossibility of the truth of charges being arrived at in this country. That was a most extraordinary reason. In the colony there was a free Press, and it was fully used; and he was decidedly of opinion,
1110
that the merits of cases were now truly known. He, therefore, must oppose the Motion as unnecessary.
Mr. Warburtonwas glad to hear that a change of system was to take place in the administration of justice in New South Wales. It certainly was quite time that a change of some kind should be adopted. In his opinion, a change in the system of government was equally necessary, and for that reason he was favourable to the establishment of a representative assembly, as in the other colonies. He did not mean to bring any charge against the Governor; but the whole system was bad, and gave rise to oppression which he was sure no Government at home could sanction. One individual (Mr. Hall) had had eight prosecutions ex officio against him in one year, and had had the assigned servants of the Crown taken from him on account of his opposition to the government there. These were petty vexations, to which no individual should be subjected, or could be subjected under a representative system. He was glad to hear the admission of the noble Lord, that a representative government must be given to the colony of New South Wales, sooner or later, and he thought that the sooner it was given the better it would be for the colony. If that system were adopted, the petty piques and complaints of personal injuries, which naturally resulted from the existing mode of government, would be put an end to.
Mr. Dixonsaid, that it was the curse of this, as of all other colonies, that instead of having its interests judged of by persons residing in it, and of course acquainted with those interests, representations were sent home, by Governors and other parties, which representations were, to say the least of them, at all times partial, and often interested. The necessity of a local legislature, he thought, was well illustrated in the absence of all control over the public accounts, and the frequency of the abuses which could not fail to be the consequence of such a system. At present there was no proper control over the expenditure of the colonies, which could not be the case if the colonies had each a resident legislature. He adopted the general principle, that populations so large should not be taxed without their own consent. If there had been a local legislature existing in New South Wales, no such appointment as that recently made—he meant that of the resident of New South Zealand, who was to

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be compensated out of the revenues of the colony, would have taken place. He must also express his regret, that the noble Lord should have declared an opinion, that the charges against the late Governor Darling, which, it was to be recollected, were about to undergo inquiry, were unfounded. What, he begged to ask, would those who had come from New South Wales, merely to obtain justice from the British Government, say, when they heard that a noble Lord, a member of that Government, had, in his place, expressed an opinion that General Darling had been grossly calumniated? This was at once pronouncing a verdict against the complainants, and in favour of the officer against whom the complaints were made, without any investigation. He could not do otherwise than characterize such conduct in the noble Lord as extremely injudicious, and even unjust.
Mr. Stanleysaid, it was not his intention to have spoken, if it had not been for the last observation of the hon. member for Glasgow, for he was by no means competent to say, whether the charges against General Darling were true or false. He should, however, contend, that his noble friend (Lord Howick) had not, in what he had said, gone one inch beyond the fair protection which Government was bound to afford its officers, pending the investigation of charges against them. The noble Lord had only spoken of the charges which had been investigated, but, at the same time, said, that there were some charges which had not been gone into.
Mr. O'Connellwas not in the House during the speech of the noble Lord, but if, as he had been informed, the noble Lord had applied the term "virulent persecution" to the charges brought against General Darling, be thought it was pronouncing an opinion prematurely on any of those charges which had not yet been examined. He, of course, had no personal knowledge of the charges made against General Darling. All that he heard came to him on the authority of others, but if the one-tenth part of the allegations which had reached him against General Darling could be proved, it would be sufficient to expose him to the most severe censure. If the First Minister of this country(and he was sure that no man could be named who would be less likely to be guilty of such conduct than the noble Earl who now held that office) could have acted, in this country, as General Darling
1112
had done towards a man named M'Hue, after he had been discharged on a Habeas Corpus, by the Chief Justice of the colony, the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench would deserve to be deprived of his office, if, within twenty-four hours, he did not commit the person so acting to the custody of his Marshal, for a gross contempt of Court. Then again there was the conduct of General Darling with regard to the prosecutions of the Press. There was no surer test of tyranny than a disposition to prosecute the Press on all occasions. He would not go into the case of Mr. Hall, another opportunity would be afforded for that. He thought, indeed, it was too late in the present session to bring the case of General Darling before the House, but he pledged himself, that if no other Member did, he would do so in the course of the next Session, should he have a seat in Parliament; and if only a small part of the allegations which he had received against him could be proved, he would be able to establish such a case against him as would make Verres appear innocent as a child in the comparison. He was glad that General Darling was no longer the Governor of the colony. He rejoiced that the Government had sent out a person who had twice honourably distinguished himself in situations of difficulty, and whose appointment gave the happiest promise to the colony. In his opinion, the present Government could not have done a more wise thing than to appoint General Burke, whose conduct at the Cape of Good Hope and in Ireland had entitled him to the highest praise. The colonists claimed seven, but if four out of the legislative council were in future to be elected by the people, and if the doors of the legislative council were thrown open, as were the doors of that House to the Press, he had no doubt that these changes would be productive of the happiest effect. It was impossible that large bodies of Englishmen should be assembled together in a colony, and not be discontented if they were not able to correct on the spot the faults of the government, instead of being obliged to send to the most distant part of the earth to obtain redress.
Lord Howickdenied that he had made the conduct of General Darling the subject of praise, nor had he attacked those who complained against him. He had cautiously abstained from saying a word one way or the other. He must, however,

1113
observe, that, some time since, he had stated in that House that a charge of murder had been made against General Darling—that that charge had been investigated, and the counsel for the prosecution had thrown up his case, and said he would have nothing more to do with it. He had a right, therefore, to say that General Darling had been basely calumniated, and he repeated the expression. He was the more confident in doing so, as the report of what had then passed in the House had gone out to the colony, and had never been in the slightest degree contradicted.
Mr. Dixonwas glad to hear that the noble Lord had avoided both praise and censure, but with respect to the case particularly mentioned, the noble Lord must know, that the question of the murder still formed a part of the charges at this moment lying before the Colonial Office.
Mr. Huntsaid, that the conduct of General Darling could not be made the subject of praise, at all events, though it was always the case, that when any man, even down to a Gaoler, was charged with cruelty, he was sure to find defenders in that House. He was glad to hear that the colonists were to have Jury Trial, and he hoped that the Juries would be fairly chosen. When that step was taken he should expect that a representative assembly would be granted, though the noble Lord was at present not inclined to grant one.
Mr. Burgewould support the Motion before the House upon many grounds, but upon none more strongly than the experience which the country had had, that the colonies possessing legislative assemblies were invariably better and more economically governed than those which were not possessed of such an institution. The expenditure of all colonies which had any thing like a free legislative assembly had been uniformly found less than the expenditure of the colonies that were denominated Crown colonies. He thought that every argument which had been used by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Howick) was particularly fallacious; for if his Majesty's Ministers were not prepared to give the colony a legislative assembly, in the full and free acceptation of the term, they might at least, try the experiment upon a confined or partial scale. They might, for instance, introduce into the existing executive council two or more Members, freely elected by the people, as a modification of that assembly. The experiment
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might certainly be made with some limitation of numbers, or with some modification of the franchise; and, now that the subject had been so often discussed, the people of this country had a right to expect that a reforming Ministry would make such a concession to the colonists of so rising and prosperous a settlement. He conceived that, after what had occurred, Ministers could scarcely have resorted to a worse argument to get rid of the Motion, than that the bad government of the colony would find a sufficient correction in the Press, which had already been established in New South Wales.
Mr. Slaneydid not intend to enter upon the subject before the House, but he could not suffer the discussion to close without pointing out the strange and extraordinary inconsistency in the conduct of the hon. Member who had just sat down. The hon. Member had just advocated the granting of a legislative assembly to the colony of New South Wales, and so anxious was he that the people of that colony should possess the rights and privileges of a free constituency, that he would consent even to an incipient approach to it, upon a scale however small. He only begged the hon. Member to consider how he could reconcile this love of a free legislative assembly in a colony, when he had recently stood forward as the unflinching opponent of every extension of elective rights or legislative privileges among the people at home. He would maintain that the people of England ought, upon a subject like the present, to place implicit confidence in the Government, as Ministers had afforded such substantial proof of their desire to extend and secure popular rights and privileges wherever it was practicable. Their conduct with respect to Juries in New South Wales was an earnest that they wished to benefit that colony, by emancipating it as soon as the state of its society and population would render such a course safe and eligible.
Mr. Henry Lytton Bulwerreplied. He would consent to withdraw so much of his Motion as related to the Jury system in the colony of New South Wales. Upon this point he was satisfied by what had been said by the noble Lord; but, upon all the other points, what the noble Lord had advanced had confirmed him in the opinions which he had formed upon the subject, before he had brought it under the notice of the House. He should now alter his

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original intentions, and move "that an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to cause measures to be taken in order to give to the free inhabitants of New South Wales a system of legislative representation, such as the present condition and circumstances of that colony may seem to require."
The House divided:—Ayes 26; Noes 66—Majority 40.

POLAND.
Lord Ebringtonrose to present a Petition, coming from Polish refugees resident in London, praying the House to address the Crown, in order to obtain its interference in the affairs of Poland.
Sir Charles Wetherellobjected to the reception of the petition, on the ground of irregularity.
The Speakersaid, that the House might receive the petitions of foreigners residing in this country, when the subject of their complaints originated in the acts of British authorities; but he was of opinion that such a petition as that brought forward by the noble Lord could not be received.
Lord Ebringtondeferred to the rules of the House, and withdrew the petition. The noble Lord then presented petitions, of a similar character, from Sidmouth, Crediton, and another place in Devonshire.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonhad once more to solicit the indulgence of the House, whilst he called its attention to the State of Poland, and to the claims which that brave and oppressed nation had on the justice, good faith, and honour of the Government of this country. When he had last an opportunity of addressing the House on this deeply interesting subject, he was told that he had come late; and that reproach was not without foundation, at least he did not feel himself free from blame, for having omitted to take a part in the discussion on the affairs of Poland, which was at an earlier period opened to the House by the hon. and gallant member for Rye, who was the first to raise his voice in this House in favour of the oppressed. But, if he was silent upon that occasion, it was not from want of feeling the deepest sympathy for the misfortunes, and indignation at the wrongs, which had been heaped upon that heroic people, in contempt of every principle of justice and humanity, and in violation of the faith of treaties, and of the acknowledged public law of Europe. He abstained, as did
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many other Members of this House, from urging upon Ministers, at that moment, the claims of injured Poland, and calling upon them to interfere on her behalf, as well from the confidence which they reposed in Government, as from a fear of embarrassing it in its course. But he was satisfied that this latter consideration had been pushed too far. If they were satisfied that the Government meant fairly towards Poland, surely the opinions, and sentiments, and feelings of the House, which had been of late so unanimously expressed in favour of that cause, could not embarrass the Government; but must, on the contrary, give it support, and strength, and encouragement, to proceed in the right path. If he had believed that Government had been wanting in its efforts to obtain justice for Poland—if he had believed that those efforts had not only been ineffectual at the time, but were to cease, and were not to be continued or renewed in a sincere and honest spirit, and with a firmness which the occasion called for—his Motion would not have been of that limited nature which appeared on the Notice-books. He should not only have called for papers, to establish a case of oppression and of breach of treaty and public faith on the part of Russia, but he should have demanded of this Government to show what it had done to obtain reparation for Poland, and to save from destruction a land whose destinies had awakened so deep and general an interest throughout the civilized world. He should have deemed it necessary to ascertain, whether the Government of this free country had kept that high ground of national honour and of public faith, from which he trusted she never would depart whilst she existed as a state. He was so sensible of the indulgence which the House had been pleased already to extend to him, when he formerly addressed it on the same subject, that he would endeavour to spare it as much as possible on this occasion. Indeed, the lateness of the hour, added to his indisposition, would make it a matter of as much inconvenience to himself, as it would be to the House, that he should address it at any length; and he would therefore, endeavour, as much as possible, to avoid repetition, or a reference to any documents which were not essential to substantiate the case which he had undertaken to make out on behalf of the Poles, which was this—that national rights, which were secured

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to them by a solemn treaty, had been violated by the emperor of Russia; and that those rights having been guaranteed to the Poles by a treaty, to which Great Britain was a party, she was bound, in good faith and in honour, to see to the maintenance of that treaty, and of the provisions which it contained in favour of Poland. He admitted that he must establish the double proposition, and that, unless he did so, he had no right to expect that he should carry along with him the assent and concurrence of the House. The foundation of his case was the Treaty of Vienna, in the preparing and settling of the provisions of which, as far as respected Poland, Great Britain, through her Minister, took an anxious and prominent part, from the commencement to the conclusion of the proceedings of the Congress. Lord Castlereagh, in the first instance, demanded the restoration of Ancient Poland, and declared that it was England's wish that an independent power should be established in Poland, under a distinct dynasty, in order to interpose something between the three great Powers of the North. Austria seemed willing to accede to the proposal, at the expense even of sacrifices to be made by her; but Russia not only opposed the re-establishment of Poland under a distinct dynasty, but insisted that the duchy of Warsaw should be added to, and become an integral part of her dominion. Lord Castlereagh, on the part of England, rejected the demand, and declared, that in preference to such an arrangement, it would be better to fall back on the provision of the treaty of Ruchenbach, and that the duchy of Warsaw should he divided among the three Powers, Russia, Prussia, and Austria, conformably to the second article of that treaty. Austria acquiesced in this proposal, in preference to delivering over the duchy of Warsaw to be added to and become au integral part of the dominions of Russia, the further aggrandisement of which it was one of the great objects of the Congress of Vienna to prevent. Could it be doubted, that this arrangement would have been less unfavourable to the European system than that which was proposed by Russia, and positively rejected by great Britain as well as Austria, but which Nicholas, by a stroke of his imperial pen, now attempted in defiance of the other Powers, and of the solemn stipulations of Russia, to force on submissive
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Europe, as a part of its public law? It was clear that the stipulations of the first article of the Treaty of Vienna, were the result of long and anxious deliberation, and at last of compromise, among the Powers who were parties to the act of the Congress of Vienna, including Great Britain, whose Minister took the lead in every consultation respecting the settlement of Poland under that treaty. What then, were the stipulations of that treaty? The House, would, he hoped bear with him, whilst he cited the words of the first article, on which everything might be said to depend. They were these—'The Duchy of Warsaw with the exception of the provinces which have been otherwise disposed of, in the following articles, is re-united to the empire of Russia. It shall be irrevocably bound to it by its constitution, and be possessed by his Majesty, the emperor of all the Russias, his heirs and successors in perpetuity. His imperial Majesty reserves to himself to give to this State, enjoying a distinct administration, the territorial extension which he shall deem fit; he will take with his other titles that of "Czar, king of Poland," according to the customary formula used for his other possessions. Then came the stipulations in favour of the Polish provinces, distinct from the Duchy of Warsaw, as follows—'The Polish subjects of Russia, Austria, and Prussia shall enjoy a representative and national institution, regulated according to the mode of political existence which each of the governments to which they belong shall judge useful and fitting to grant them.' As he scarcely touched on the part of this case which respects the Polish provinces, distinct from the Duchy of Warsaw, when he had last the honour of addressing the House, and as the points were necessarily and inseparably connected with each other, he would commence with a few observations on the provisions here made in favour of the Polish provinces, which, besides those subject to Austria and Prussia, consisted of Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and the Ukraine, provinces of great extent, and containing a population exceeding 8,000,000. These provinces, in the whole, or in part, it was once the intention of Alexander to have added to the kingdom of Poland; but, so much was the kingdom considered to be a creation of the Congress of Vienna, that it was thought necessary to reserve to the

1119
Emperor Alexander a power of adding to that kingdom; and the territorial extension contemplated by the Treaty of Vienna was to be found in the Polish provinces subject to Russia, to which, in the mean time, a Representation and national institutions were to be given. It might be observed here, that the giving of a Representation and national institutions to those provinces was an express stipulation of the Treaty of Vienna, binding on the emperor of Russia, and matter of compact between him and the other powers, parties to the treaty of Vienna, and which they had a right to see, and ought to have seen, carried into effect on the part of that prince. But, so far from this being the case, it appeared that, although some most imperfect institutions had been given by Austria to the province of Gallicia, and by Prussia to the Duchy of Posen, not only had no national institutions or Representation of any kind been given to the other parts, but their ancient institutions, which, to a certain degree, afforded protection to liberty and life, had been wrested from them. The law of Poland, with the tribunals in which it was administered, had been suppressed, and the inhabitants of the provinces had been left, without defence or protection of any kind, to the mercy of the Imperial Ukase. The system of persecution and oppression which had been exercised in the Polish provinces, had not been less atrocious than that of which the unhappy kingdom had been the victim. The subject however, which was first in order, and which must form the main subject of the night's deliberation—was the provision by which the Duchy of Warsaw was erected into a kingdom, and was conferred upon the emperor of Russia, subject to certain conditions, upon which, and which only, he received the sovereignty of Poland from the hands of the Congress of Vienna, and upon which conditions alone he had a right to hold that sovereignty for a single day. What, then, were the terms and conditions of the treaty in behalf of the Poles? It had been said, that they were vague If the House would be pleased to listen to him for a few minutes, he would undertake to show that the terms of the treaty were clear, definite, and precise; and that there was nothing in them vague or ambiguous, or that would admit of any mistake in respect of their meaning by any one who would give them a moment of fair and unprejudiced consideration. The
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House would be pleased to remark the difference in the provisions of the treaty which respect the Polish provinces, which were before subject to Russia, and those which respect the kingdom of Poland conferred upon that State. By the treaty itself the Polish provinces were to have a Representation and national institutions; but the Duchy of Warsaw, erected into a kingdom, was to have not merely a Representation, not merely national institutions, but a constitution by which the new kingdom was to be irrevocably hound, and without which constitution it was not, and could not be, bound to the emperor of Russia. It was the condition, the indispensable condition, of rule over that country by the emperor of Russia—the constitutional king of Poland—Poland, not a province, like those that were to have a Representation and national institutions, but a kingdom and a state enjoying a distinct administration, to which the emperor must give such territorial extension as he might judge fit. If the new state were not to be bound to the emperor of Russia by its Constitution, by what tie was it to be bound?—Not by divine right—not by hereditary descent, certainly, and as certainly not by conquest, although this right was put forth in the manifesto which speaks of Poland as having been conquered in 1815 by the victorious arms of Russia. Victorious arms of Russia? Where was there any account of these victories to be found? It was true, indeed, that after the retreat of Napoleon, the troops of Russia overran Poland, and Warsaw was taken possession of without firing a shot. The Russians entered Warsaw at one gate, whilst Poniatowsky, and Schwartzenburgh, with his Austrians, left it at another. The boasted conquest of Poland was no more than the unopposed occupation of that country by the troops of Russia. Poland was held to be at the disposal of the Congress of Vienna; it was, in fact, disposed of by the Powers who were assembled at that Congress. It was made over to the emperor of Russia—not to form an integral part of his dominions—not to be, at his will, converted into a province of Russia; it would have been easy to have given Poland to him free from all conditions, but it was given to him expressly on a condition, by which it was to be irrevocably bound to his empire—namely, its constitution. What was there vague or uncertain in

1121
the terms of this provision? But if the terms were vague or uncertain, who so fit to explain and clear them up as the emperor Alexander himself? Let the House then hear him, as to the terms on which he considered that he held the sovereignty of Poland. Alexander gave a constitution—a free constitution—to Poland. In his speech on the opening of the Diet, in March, 1818, he said—'Your restoration is defined by solemn treaties: it is sanctioned by the constitutional Charter. The inviolability of those external engagements, and of the fundamental law, assures henceforward to Poland an honourable rank among the nations of Europe.' Could it then be said, that the provisions of the Treaty of Vienna in respect of Poland and its constitution were vague and uncertain? They were neither vague nor uncertain; but, if they were, Alexander himself had sufficiently defined their meaning. The rank of Poland among the nations of Europe was secured to it by the inviolability of its constitutional Charter, and the solemn obligations of a treaty with foreign powers. Such was Alexander's own construction of the Treaty of Vienna, and of the rights which it conferred upon Poland. Alexander gave to Poland its constitution; and the emperor Nicholas, at his accession, swore to maintain and preserve it. In his proclamation on that occasion, Nicholas said—'we declare to you, that the institution which he (Alexander) gave to you shall remain without any change; I, therefore, promise, and swear before God, that I will observe the Constitutional Act, and that I will bestow all my care in maintaining the observance of it.' Surely no Prince was ever bound by a more solemn or sacred engagement to observe and protect the constitutional liberties of the people than that which bound the emperor of Russia to the subjects of the kingdom of Poland. The obligation was reciprocal. The Emperor reigned by the Charter, and he swore to its observance. On the observance of the Charter by the prince rested his right to the allegiance of the subject; and the subject accordingly swore fidelity, not to his King alone, but to his King and the constitutional Charter. But how was the constitutional Charter observed or maintained by Nicholas, or even by Alexander? The government of Poland was by both of these princes delivered over to the arbitrary will of the
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Grand Duke Constantine. He had, on a former occasion, imperfectly and inadequately described the atrocities committed by the orders of that prince, and he would not tire or disgust the House by a repetition of the description. Suffice it to say, that there was not one article of the constitution that was not grossly, openly, and shamefully violated. That constitution provided that a Diet should assemble every two years; five years were suffered to elapse, and no Diet was assembled. That constitution provided, that taxes should not be imposed on the people of Poland without the consent of their representatives, and that a budget should be submitted to the Diet every fourth year: yet taxes were imposed without the consent of those representatives, and no budget for fifteen years was ever submitted to, deliberated upon, or voted by, the Diet. By the same constitution the proceedings of the Diet were to be public. By an ordinance of the emperor Alexander, the publicity of its debates was prevented and prohibited. Personal liberty was provided for by the Charter; but personal liberty had no protection; it was constantly violated by the simple order of the Grand Duke. If a member of the Diet expressed himself in a manner that did not please that personage, he was seized by his order, and imprisoned during his pleasure. The constitution provided, that within three days every man who was arrested should know the charge against him, and should be brought before the proper authority, and, if not made good against him, within that period, he should be discharged. After the accession of Nicholas, the insurrection of St. Petersburg was made the pretext for numerous arrests for alleged state offences. How long were such prisoners detained without being brought before the proper authorities? For three days? No, for eighteen months. The prisons were filled with victims, who were assailed, during that time, by the agents and spies of Constantine, who endeavoured, by every art, to entrap them into the confession of imaginary crimes. Many sunk under the barbarous and cruel treatment they received; others fell by their own hands. After a period of eighteen months the survivors were brought to trial before the High Court of Justice, and were acquitted, as it were, in a mass, no suspicion of a state offence appearing against them;

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yet many of those unfortunate beings, instead of being liberated, were hurried off to Russian fortresses, and confined in dungeons, and had never since been seen or heard of. The National Tribunal, which had nobly and courageously done that duty which the oath imposed upon the Judges, was reprimanded by order of the Grand Duke, for conduct which was interpreted into an offence against the state. No one had attempted to deny that the constitution of Poland, before the insurrection broke out, had been violated in every one of its leading provisions, and that it was, in fact, wholly subverted and destroyed by the authority of the King, who had sworn to preserve and maintain it. The appeal to arms was justified in the eyes of God and man; if not, there never was a justification of resistance against oppression, and this country had lived for 150 years under an usurpation. On what ground was James 2nd declared to have forfeited all right to the allegiance of his subjects? On the ground that he had violated the fundamental law, and broken the solemn compact between him and them. The Prince of Orange came in upon that declaration, and the House of Brunswick held the Crown of these realms upon the same and no other title. But even if he were to admit, that the insurrection of Poland was a rebellion not to be justified, it could not be a reason for taking away the liberties of a whole nation. The Emperor Nicholas himself did not charge the Polish nation with rebellion—he stated it to have been the work of a faction, who had seduced a portion of his subjects from their allegiance. He had already admitted that those who took part in the insurrection exposed themselves to the consequences of its failure; but the constitution of Poland, and the rights of the people, continued as before. But he had laboured this case too much. The difficulty, indeed, was to suggest arguments to be answered; for those who supported the cause of the Poles, found no opponent in the field. There was only one publication which he had met with, which had ventured to defend the conduct of the emperor of Russia in issuing the manifesto, and the organic statute of the 26th of February, by which the constitution of Poland, and its political existence as a state, were sought to be annihilated. He alluded to an article in the Allgemeine Zeitung, of the 2nd of May last, and
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which article was stated therein to have been sent for insertion, by authority; he presumed, it came from the court of Russia. The writer did not deign to justify the emperor of Russia from the charge of having violated the constitution of Poland—he did not even deny the fact that the constitution was violated by the emperor of Russia; but he denied that the grant of a constitution was a condition on which Alexander held the crown of Poland. He denied, also, that either France or England contributed to the grant of a constitution to Poland, and stated it to be a perversion of the truth to ascribe to those powers the part of mediators on that occasion. He added that the Poles were indebted for their constitution to the Emperor Alexander, who generously granted it upon the entreaties and representations of the Poles themselves. The world had heard of treaties and other transactions being void by reason of the force or terror employed to procure the acquiescence of the parties to them; but this writer seemed to think that the more voluntary and generous the act, the less binding on the party. Alexander freely and voluntarily gave a constitution to Poland, and because the gift was free and voluntary, it was a gift, it was contended, which he had a right to revoke and take away. The charge, observe, was not merely that Nicholas, by the Ukase issued since the insurrection was put down, had taken away from the Polish nation their constitution; but that, by his acts, and those of Alexander, before the issuing of the Ukase, and before the breaking out of the insurrection, the constitution of Poland was, in fact, destroyed. This was not denied by the writer in the Allgemeine Zeitung, and was, indeed, of no consequence to his reasoning, and did not at all affect it, for his reasoning amounted to this, that the constitution of Poland proceeding from the generosity and magnanimity of the Emperor, was binding on the Poles who received it, but not on the Prince who gave it, or on the Prince who swore solemnly to maintain it. He agreed, however, with the writer that France and England did not act the part of mediators, for they were contracting parties on that occasion. The writer further said, that the powers at the Congress could not guarantee a constitution which was not granted till eight months after the Congress broke up. What!

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could there be no guarantee that a thing should be done, as well as that a thing that was done, should continue to exist? If Alexander was to give the constitution, according to the intent and meaning of the provision of the Treaty of Vienna, the constitution, when given, was to become the "tie" by which Poland was to be bound to Russia, and became, in fact, a part of, and was, as it were, incorporated into the very treaty itself. But there was another view which might be taken of this question. The writer of the article referred to, seemed to think that Poland had no constitution till one was granted to her by Alexander; or, at least, that she had no right to a free constitution at the time of that grant, and that, but for the generosity of Alexander, she never would have obtained one. But let it be remembered, that before the Treaty of Vienna, the Duchy of Warsaw was an independent state, subject to the king of Saxony as Grand Duke, and whose title was acknowledged by the Treaty of Tilsit. Poland had then, as she had always had, a free constitution; and the constitution which she enjoyed under the king of Saxony, had never been abrogated or taken away. It continued lawfully to exist, notwithstanding the provisional occupation of Poland by the Russians, up to, and at the time of, the Treaty of Vienna. That treaty spoke of Poland being bound by its constitution to the empire of Russia, speaking, as some have contended, of the constitution of the Duchy of Warsaw, and speaking of it as a constitution then existing. It spoke also of Poland, as a state then "enjoying" a distinct administration. It could not be denied that there was considerable force in the reasoning; but he used it only to show, that if Alexander did not bind himself to grant a constitution to the Duchy of Warsaw erected into a kingdom, he took upon him the government of that state, with the constitution which it then had—a constitution as free as that which he afterwards gave to Poland, and on the model of which the latter appears to have been framed. So that, in any way, it could not be denied that Poland was to have the benefit of a free constitution, and that the emperor of Russia, in becoming king of Poland, ascended the throne of a constitutional monarchy, and that, the imperial will could never convert the kingdom of Poland into a Russian province. Yet a
1126
Russian province, the imperial will had declared that Poland should in future be, and that her political existence and nationality were at an end. The writer in the Allgemeine Zeitung, or rather, the court of Russia, considered that the organic statute was a sufficient substitute for the constitution of Poland. He would not waste the time of the House by showing that the constitution of Poland had been taken away; and that nothing in the shape of national guarantee for liberty, public or private, had been substituted in its room. The power to make laws, and to raise taxes in Poland, had been transferred to the Russian Council of State; and the Diet of Poland, as well as the national army, had ceased to exist. This last was, perhaps, the point which went deepest into the hearts of the Poles. Alexander knew well what was the feeling of a Polish army, and what might be expected from their valour and heroism, which had shone forth in a hundred battles, whilst that feeling was respected. By an article of the constitution, "the army was to preserve the colour of its uniform, its particular customs, and all the badges of its nationality." By the Ukase, the Pole was to mingle in the same rank with the Russian—he was to become a Russian soldier; his uniform was to be Russian; his national colours, and all the badges of his nationality, were taken away from him. The white eagle was struck down; but he trusted only for a season! "May we see it again raised," said the hon. Member, "and, when occasion calls for it, winging its course to victory, in a just and righteous cause!" He feared he had exhausted the patience of the House, as he had his own strength, in dilating on this painful and heart-rending subject; but he craved the indulgence of the House for a very little longer, whilst he stated a few facts illustrative of the present unhappy and mosdistressing state of that devoted country and its inhabitants. Not only had the constitution and nationality of Poland been taken away, but means had been taken to destroy the very germ of her institutions. Her schools of instruction (all but the very lowest) had been abolished; her Universities shut up; her cabinets and collections carried away; her military schools emptied; whilst thousands of Poles, citizens of all ages, who had taken part in the revolution, or who were charged with having done so, were

1127
dragged into Siberia, to labour in the mines, or to undergo whatever other mercy their oppressors might have in store for them. The last accounts from the frontiers of Siberia stated, that along the whole line of road, columns of Polish subjects and Polish soldiers, were met as in procession, ten-and-ten, linked together by bars of iron. It was calculated that 80,000 Poles had been sent to Siberia, and the most distant parts of the Russian empire. In contempt of the amnesty granted to the military, they had been compelled, without exception, officers and men, to serve in the Russian armies, as private soldiers, or, at most, as officers of the very lowest grade, and were sent to distant and desert countries, probably never to return. Out of twenty-two Polish Generals included in the amnesty, but who were sent away, notwithstanding, to distant parts of the Russian empire, only four had yet been suffered to return to their homes. Children had been carried away by thousands—he said by thousands!—under the colour or pretence of an Imperial Ukase, which declared, that all infants who had neither father nor mother, belonged to the state, and that he, the Emperor, as father of the country, named himself their guardian. It was in vain to protest that these orphans had friends, protectors, relations, who were willing to take charge of them—nay, in whose charge they actually were—and that they were in want of nothing—such remonstrances were unheeded; and the young and innocent victims were torn away from the soil which had given them birth, to be brought up in distant parts of Russia, in another religion, and with other manners, with a view, as was pretended, of good towards the Polish children, but with the sole view, as he believed, of making them Muscovites, slaves, and enemies of Poland. The abuse to which the execution of the Imperial Ukase was liable, was sufficiently obvious; and it was said not to be confined to orphans, but to be extended to the children of the absent, including almost all those who had taken part, and had survived the revolutionary war. There was one case of more than ordinary severity, of which most hon. Members must have heard, but which he would take the liberty of shortly stating to the House. It was the case of Prince Roman Sangousko, a Pole of high birth, who joined the national army of Poland early in the
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revolution, and was taken prisoner, tried, and condemned to be degraded from the rank of noble, and to banishment and confiscation. He had served in the kingdom of Poland, and was taken prisoner there, but his chief estates were situated in the province of Lithuania, and he was condemned as a Lithuanian subject of the Emperor, and his estate in that province confiscated. This sentence was submitted to the Emperor, and it was laid before him on the festival day of his patron saint, with a view to propitiate his clemency and mercy. Of what he was about to state, he wished he could question the authenticity. Would it be believed, that in place of giving way to a feeling of mercy towards the unfortunate Prince, he wrote, with his own hand, and added to the sentence of banishment to Siberia, these words—"To be sent on foot;" and this dreadful sentence had been carried rigourously into execution. The mother of the Prince repaired to St. Petersburg, to implore from the Emperor, not pardon for her son, but pity, and a mitigation of his physical sufferings. It was insinuated that some mitigation might take place; but upon certain conditions—the Prince was expected to declare that he was drawn into rebellion from despair, occasioned by the death of his wife, or that he had been induced to take part in it by the injunctions of his mother, which accompanied her blessing. The Prince declined to receive a mitigation of his sentence on either of those conditions. He said, that he had acted on his own judgment, and a sense of duty which he owed his country, and that he was ready to abide the consequences of his act. The heart of a generous Prince would have been touched by this noble sentiment; but the sentence on Prince Sangousko was carried into rigorous execution, and his broken-hearted mother had not been able, to this day, to ascertain what colony in Siberia had been assigned to her unfortunate and gallant son, as the scene of his misery and degradation. The Prince left behind him a daughter of the age of eight years, who was under the care of her grandfather, the father of the Prince, one of the surviving fellow-soldiers of Kosciusko, who was allowed to occupy, under surveillance, one of the estates in Volhynia. A party of military entered the house of this aged Prince, with the intent, as it was supposed, of carrying away the infant. The old man

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seized the infant in his arms, and threatened to plunge a poignard into her breast, rather than deliver her up. This resolute conduct struck dismay into the hearts of the party, and time was gained to save the child, and convey her to the Austrian territory. It would be easy to multiply cases of oppression in the dominions of the emperor of Russia, wherever Poles were to be found. But cases of oppression were not confined to his own territories: by virtue of the supremacy which he assumed in Europe, he, or his ministers acting for him, called upon independent Governments, by base compliances, to aid him in his course of persecution. The case of M. Thours appeared to have been one of that description. It took place in the dominions of the king of Hanover. Were the minister of the king of Hanover in the House, he should demand of him an explanation of this transaction. It was this: M. Thours was employed officially in some capacity in the Diet of Poland, and was supposed to have in his possession certain papers implicating many Poles in the transactions of that period. The Russian minister at Dresden demanded that this person should be arrested, and that his papers should he seized; and it had been stated that this demand was complied with—that Thours was arrested in the Hanoverian dominions; and though he was not detained as a prisoner, yet his papers were taken from him and delivered up to the Russian minister at Dresden. This proceeding was defended in some newspapers, on the ground that every state belonging to the Germanic Confederation was bound by treaty to deliver up criminals. But this defence would not hold good in the present case, because Thours was not a criminal, nor was he considered or treated as such. He was not detained in custody; but his confidential papers were seized and taken from him. The supremacy asserted by Russia, and the tone of dictation assumed by her in every public transaction, sufficiently disclosed her views of attaining general domination throughout Europe. Her system of aggrandizement was pursued with a steady and successful policy, beyond any example in modern history. It was said, that the extent of her dominion was her weakness—that it must fall to pieces by its own weight. So it was said of the Roman empire; but let it be remembered that Britain succumbed to
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the Roman power, after it had been declared by Augustus that the strength of the empire depended on the confinement, not the extension, of its limits. The aggrandizement of Russia, and the increase of her power, ought to be a cause of the most watchful and unceasing jealousy to the other powers of Europe. She set at naught the faith of treaties, and the right of independent nations. By her Ukase she annuls treaties, and changes the public law of Europe—her present attempt was to destroy the political existence of a European kingdom, to the establishment and formation of which this country was a party. It imported the honour and character of Great Britain that Poland should not be abandoned; and, whatever might be the result of the attempts to save her, should they prove, in the end, unsuccessful, Britain could never acquiesce; but must, on the contrary, enter the most solemn protest against an act so unjust and so atrocious as the extinction of the political existence and nationality of Poland. He sought not, at the present moment, for the disclosure of any matters relating to negotiations, either pending, or about to be carried on between this country and Russia, in respect to Poland; but he begged leave to move for copies of the Manifesto of the emperor of Russia of the 26th of February last, and of the Organic Statute to which it referred; and also for a copy or extract from the Despatch of the British Minister at St. Petersburg, communicating the same to his Majesty's Government.
Lord Sandonseconded the Motion, He cordially concurred in all which had fallen from his hon. friend, who had so completely exhausted the subject, that he should have said nothing were he not anxious to support the prayer of a petition which had been intrusted to him by a numerous and respectable body of men in the city of Bristol. He regretted that they were tied down to express their grief and sorrow, being unable to take a more active part in obtaining redress. He must say, that he was not prepared to assert that England should go to war for such a purpose as that of compelling Russia to do justice to Poland; but there was nothing to prevent England from setting herself free from the reproach of being indifferent to liberty—of raising her voice in support of the rights of that most deeply-injured nation, Under the

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Treaty of Vienna, she posessed the most perfect right to do so; and he hoped that that right would be speedily exercised. It was in the highest degree chimerical to expect that the Russians and the Poles would ever amalgamate or form one people—no matter how often the attempt might be made, it could not but end in failure and disappointment. There was one important consideration to which he wished particularly to call the attention of the House; it was, that the conduct of Russia had completely put an end to the arrangement made at the Congress of Vienna; and it was open to the Powers of Europe to make what settlement of the pending question the present circumstances might demand. He hoped that the time was not distant when the Crown of Poland would be declared independent, and when that country would be placed in such a situation as to enable her to fulfil her duties amongst the great family of the States of Europe. In the consideration of such a question as that, he had the satisfaction to think, that there did not exist a second opinion, either in that House or in the nation at large. It had been contended, on the part of the emperor of Russia, that the Poles had forfeited their right to a free constitution, as well might it be said, that the people of Scotland, after the events of 1745, had forfeited all right to personal or political liberty.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that if it were his intention to object to the present Motion, he should feel it his duty to enter into the subject somewhat in detail, and to discuss the question at full length; but that would be unnecessary, as he was prepared to accede to the production of the papers. And as his hon. and learned friend had had the good taste and judgment to say that, neither by his arguments, nor by the Motion with which he intended to conclude, did he mean to drive his Majesty's Government into any defence or explanation of the conduct which they had pursued in reference to the affairs of Poland, he should avail himself of what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend, and beg the House to excuse him from entering into any discussion or explanation of the conduct pursued by Government in those transactions. He was sure there was no person who must not see that, with reference to all the interests concerned, and on every ac-
1132
count, he should best discharge his duty by not entering into any statement of that nature. At the same time, he was bound in justice to add, that the Government of this country was not blind to the rights conferred upon us by the Treaty of Vienna. No man could entertain a doubt that Great Britain possessed a full right to express a decided opinion upon the performance or the non-performance of the stipulations contained in that treaty. Nevertheless, it could not be denied that England lay under no peculiar obligation, individually, and independently of the other contracting parties, to adopt measures of direct interference by force. For the reasons, then, which he had already stated, he took for granted that the House would not expect him to explain at length the communications which had taken place between his Majesty's Government and their agents at foreign Courts, upon the subject of Poland. The hon. and learned Gentleman, in the course of his speech had adverted to the severities practised by the Russian government towards the Poles, and expressed an apprehension that other and still more objectionable severities were likely to take place. He (Lord Palmerston) should not at that moment, enter into details, but he thought every man who heard him must feel that it was the interest of Russia to take a very different course, and to attach the people of Poland to her government, not more by the justice of her policy, than by the concession of those institutions which were known to be the most agreeable to their feelings. No man who heard him could doubt that it was the policy of the Russian government to win the attachment of the people for the sovereign appointed to rule over them; and he must say, that any idea of exterminating a whole people, in the manner represented by the hon. and learned Gentleman, seemed to him so improbable, that he really could not understand on what grounds the supposition rested; and, at all events, he was confident it would be found not to be correct. With respect to the case of Thours, which had been alluded to by the hon. and learned Gentleman, he felt it necessary to state, that he understood Thours to be a subject either of Prussia or of Saxony, and therefore the Hanoverian government, in arresting him, was merely performing a duty, which according to the constitution of Germany,

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it was not able to refuse. He did not conceive it to be his duty to make any further observations; and the more so, as he had already said he did not intend to refuse the papers which were moved for. If, however, any observations were made in the course of the evening, which required explanation on his part, he trusted the House would extend to him its indulgence, and permit him to say a few words in reply.
Lord Morpeth: Rising, as I do, to speak in behalf of Poland, I am, perhaps, in some measure differently situated from others who take the same view, because I am not without some personal predilection for Russia. It was my fortune to receive in that country much kindness and hospitality. I saw there much to amuse and interest me. I saw a good deal to admire and to like. I contracted a considerable kindness of feeling towards Russia. I have taken opportunities of expressing it, when the occasion allowed, in this House. I rejoiced most cordially over the joint glories of Navarino. I grudged not the trophies of Varna and Shumna. I had no wish to foresee in the chastisers of barbarous and infidel Turkey the oppressors of civilized and Christian Poland. Again, I conceived a very high opinion of the personal character of the Emperor. I know that his brow had not grown pale before the most imminent and critical peril that ever fronted a sovereign upon his entrance to dominion; and I remarked an attention and devotion to the business of his station, highly creditable to a person of any rank, much more so to the ruler of half the Continent. I say thus much to prove that I am not naturally indisposed, but quite the reverse, to Russia and her rulers; of course, in their maxims of policy and habits of government there must be many things not congenial to British feeling; but I hear of no country which has a wider field before her than Russia, if she had her true interests, and studied her real glory, for developing all her gigantic scale of resources, for extending gradually the soft and high influences of civilization, industry, and art, over her boundless and untried regions, for raising herself and benefitting the world. But I must arraign her policy, when she chooses that the sceptre she might wield with so much advantage to mankind, should be a weapon of aggression and a rod of iron. I must question her right to hold Poland
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on any other tenure but an independent nation, which she is bound to see righteously, lawfully and constitutionally governed. I will not enter into the delicate and intricate question of the precise meaning of the several treaties. Such as they are, I trust that my noble friend, acting, I hope, in conjunction with the other nations of Europe, will exact their faithful fulfilment, dealing impartially between the powerful and the weak. Neither do I feel willing to dwell upon those painful details of vengeance and suffering by which our minds are now so often harassed, without those better opportunities which others must possess of verifying their exact authenticity. I cannot, however, but remark, if all, or much of what we hear is true—and much, alas! we know must be—if the design is on foot, and in active progress, to annihilate the Polish nation, name, constitution, language—all but her immortal memory—and this, the land of the Casimers and Sigismunds, of Sobieski and Kosciusko—the land that first resisted the torrent of Mahomedan invasion, and secured the liberties and religion of Europe; if her princes, and nobles, anti senators are consigned to the dungeons, the mines, the graves of Siberia; if her noble ladies travel to the foot of the throne—and I am told their very presence has struck a chill into the festivities of the capital—and sue not for pardon, but. for pity upon those whose fault it was to act with conscientious and heroic, though perhaps despairing devotion, in the cause of their country, while they thought they had one; and that suit is denied them if, while in confiscation and exile, they teach the course of her Czartoriskys and her Sangouskos, her rising and spirited youth are daily drafted to swell the ranks of the Russian armies, and prepare new Te Deums for future triumphs over the freedom of the world; if, further—oh, crowning horror!—let it be well attested before we credit it—children are carried off to lose the memory of their noble country on the frozen banks of the Obe, or among the mountainous steeps of Caucasus; if these things be, we may, without much compromising' ourselves, say, that a case is made out for the energetic intervention of England and of Europe; we may, without much presuming, add, that whatever becomes of that intervention, great room is left for the righteous retribution of Heaven.
Sir George Warrenderwas anxious to look at the question divested of all personal feelings, but he still could not altogether get rid of the impression produced on him by the statements of the hon. and learned member for Kirkcudbright (Mr. Fergusson). He looked, however, with confidence to the exertions of the Government, and he derived much consolation from the knowledge that they possessed a Secretary of State disposed to act on true British principles. In the year 1793, Earl Grey, on this very question of Poland, moved a Resolution to the effect, that the general principles on which the security of nations rested, were wounded through the side of Poland. If the principles on which the security of nations rests were wounded through the side of Poland, then how much more were they wounded now, when, as they had heard to-night, a solemn treaty with the Powers of Europe had been grossly violated? He derived consolation, however, from the fact, that the person nearly connected with the noble Premier from whom this resolution emanated, was about to proceed to St. Petersburg; and he felt confident, from the reputation of the noble Ambassador, that the honour and interests of England, as well as the wishes of her people, would be consulted in the remonstrances which his instructions would call on him to put forth. He was confident that the people of England would view with the greatest dissatisfaction any approach towards the policy of the school of Castlereagh; for, although other subjects had diverted their attention for some time past, he could assure the Government, that there existed throughout the country the greatest regret for the fate of Poland, and the warmest sympathy for her brave and suffering people.
Lord Ebringtoncould not avoid saying a few words on behalf of a people whose patience, under the most grinding oppression, could only be equalled by the almost superhuman bravery with which they had contended against the power of their oppressors. Independent, however, of all considerations of humanity, there were considerations of policy which could not well be overlooked. Was it to be supposed that if the present aggression of Russia was suffered to pass unnoticed—if the perfidy of which she had been guilty to the country she was called to rule over, on conditions, every one of which she had violated, was suffered to go without punishment—there
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would be any permanent security for the peace of any of the neighbouring States? Could Austria or Prussia look with any confidence to a permanent peace, or to the security of their possessions, unless a check was given to the exorbitant pretensions of Russia? Allusion had been made to the Treaty of Vienna: he was one of those who thought the Treaty of Vienna the consummation of the combined efforts of the greater Powers against the weaker, and that the stipulations of the treaty were intended for the aggrandisement of the greater Powers at the expense of the lesser. On this account he had always looked at it with regret; but he confessed he felt gratified to learn that a British Minister at that time had laboured to restore Poland to her rank among nations. He was happy to have such an opportunity to do justice to the character of the Minister who at that time represented England at the Congress, and to learn that he, as well as the representative of the descendants of Maria Teresa, was anxious to preserve the integrity of that kingdom which had formed the barrier of Christendom against the utmost power of its Mahomedan assailants. If the present aggression was acquiesced in, he saw, however, no hopes of permanent peace; and it was, therefore, with no slight satisfaction that he viewed the appointment of a dear friend of his, and a near relation of the Premier, to the embassy to St. Petersburg. This appointment gave him confidence as to the result, and would infuse fresh courage in the hearts of the friends of freedom. He was as anxious as any man to avoid plunging his country into the horrors of war. He was anxious to avoid anything which could have the effect of precipitating the country into war, but he was satisfied, that firmness at the present moment was the best method of avoiding contests hereafter. Should they, however, be compelled to draw the sword in order to preserve the rights of nature, he hoped it would be in conjunction with their free neighbour and ally of France, and in support of free principles and free constitutions.
Mr. O'Connellwas almost afraid to trust himself to speak as he felt on this subject, in such a place, and among those by whom he was surrounded. They had been told of the violation of the rights of Poland, by the violation of the terms of the Treaty of Vienna, The rights of Po-

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land depended not on the Treaty of Vienna; and those who assumed at that Conference the power of disposing of that territory, had no more right to do so than a band of robbers at any time possessed to parcel out the spoil they obtained in their excursions in search of plunder. Poland was no conquered country. It had been run over by the troops of France, and by the troops of Russia, and of Austria, but it was not conquered; and as to its rights, they existed before the spoliation of 1772, or the division of 1791, and were not to be taken away or disposed of by any treaty which the Congress of Vienna might have thought proper to enter into. They had heard that night of the atrocities perpetrated by Russia. Wives were separated from their husbands—all the ties of humanity were severed, and 100,000 children had been sent into the interior of Russia, to forget their language, their kindred, and their country. The noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) had spoken of the gratification he felt in being known to the emperor of Russia, and in having visited his Court. For his (Mr. O'Connell's) part, he should be ashamed of such an acquaintance. If the emperor of Russia had been a smaller and more insignificant person, it would have been considered a disgrace to hold any communication with him; but because he had a horde of 300,000, or 400,000 barbarians at his back, was that a reason why mankind should not treat him as he deserved, and execrate him on account of his crimes? The miscreant conqueror had violated the treaty which placed Poland in his hands, in a manner such as no treaty was ever violated before. The miscreant barbarian had violated all compact—had trampled on all rights; and was this Attila—this scourge of God—to found a new claim to the kingdom of Poland, because barbarian force had crowned his perfidy and infamy with success? Look at the history of Poland from 1770, and say of what crime Attila, the scourge of God was guilty, of which the Russians had not been guilty in Poland. The debt with which this country was loaded had, it was said, prevented her taking that station amongst the nations of Europe which she ought to have taken; but he did not despair of England yet, for the effect of the Reform Bill would be, to give the democratic principle in this country an impulse it had not yet received, and that spirit, urged on by the sympathy the people had for liberty,
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would press upon the Government of this country—would press, too, upon the stock-jobbing government of France—and compel the unpopular monarch there (whom he took to be as great a traitor to the cause of liberty as any man could be) to sympathise with the feelings of the people of France, and encourage the people of Germany, who were not disposed to be much longer the mere passive instruments of their rulers, to range themselves along with every rational government, and insist upon justice being done to Poland. The same democratic spirit would enable all free governments to show to Russia, that if she persevered longer in the career of crime, the universal voice of Europe, and the arm of Europe would be too strong for her. It was a question not of argument but of natural feeling. No country had been so ill treated as Poland. On no country had such barbarities been exercised. The conduct of Russia was most atrocious, and the amount of her crimes daily increasing. He trusted, however, that the day was not far distant when the nationality of Poland should be once more restored.
Mr. Schonswarexpressed his abhorrence at the atrocities which had been perpetrated against Poland. He could personally confirm the statements made in the House that night, by the testimony of persons who had lately arrived from that unhappy country. He hoped it was not yet too late for the intervention of this country, and he trusted to the spirit of the people, backed by that House, to save the people of Poland from utter extinction.
Colonel Evanssaid, he fully agreed with the hon. Member (Sir George Warrender) in the tribute of respect which he had paid to the noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs. That noble Lord, although only in a few words, had admitted the right of our demanding an explanation from Russia; and that very admission was tantamount to this, that if the explanations were not satisfactory, some other course would be adopted to vindicate the honour and consistency of this country. He was glad that this subject had been brought forward by the learned Gentleman (Mr. Cutlar Fergusson), and it must rejoice every friend to liberty and humanity to hear the denunciations which were uttered against the conduct of Russia. He hoped the House would not be satisfied with denunciations, but that they would act with the courage

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that became a free and generous people. He should not shrink from a war, if a war became necessary, although he was glad that the peace of Europe had hitherto been preserved. If, however, as a sad alternative, war should become necessary, both England and France were bound to enter into it. Russia was really at the mercy of France and England. Her new acquisitions in Asia and elsewhere could soon be wrested from her, and by-and-by she might be reduced to her proper dimensions. If the negotiations were to terminate in hostility between Russia, and France and England on the other side, the cause of liberty could have nothing to fear from the power of the Autocrat or his allies.
Mr. Gally Knightfelt under great obligation to the hon. member for Kirkcudbright, for bringing the subject of Poland again before the House; because he thought the House would be wanting to itself if it did not express an opinion upon this important subject—if it testified neither sympathy with the calamities, nor interest in the fate, of a nation, of which it appeared to be the destiny to offer to successive generations, the sad, but illustrious, spectacle of unsuccessful valour, and unrewarded virtue—of which it appeared to be the destiny to be always the victim of oppression, and always the admiration of the world. On the occasion of the last unhappy struggle, however much our feelings might have sided with Poland, it must be admitted, that it was a contest which belonged to Russia and Poland alone. The patriots, who appealed to the sword, took the chances of war; and, however much we might have admired the gallantry of their defence, and however much we might have wished that that defence might have proved successful—no ground existed on which it would have been justifiable for other nations to have recourse to military interference. But the war party of Paris had much to answer for. He feared they encouraged the patriots to expose themselves to an overwhelming force, by pledges of assistance which they had no power of redeeming, and by promises which no Minister could have attempted to fulfil. And now all was over. Colossal force had again prevailed. Poland had become the theatre of another tragedy. The curtain had dropped again upon a scene of anguish and of death; and weeping Fame could only record the struggles of the deserving, and blend in future eulogies the name of
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Czartorisky with that of Kosciusko. And here we might have expected that all would have been concluded, and that Russia, having vindicated her authority, would have proceeded to extract the germs of future disquiet, by removing the causes of just dissatisfaction. But what had been the case? The Russian Ukase of February dissipated all these dreams of mercy. Instead of being treated with lenity, Poland was deprived of her very existence as a nation; Poland was blotted out from the map of Europe, and lost amongst the provinces of an interminable empire. Under these circumstances, it became the duty of that House to express its dismay and consternation at the blow which had been inflicted on Poland, and to appeal to the faith of that treaty, which, if it had been observed to the letter in rivetting the chains of Italy, should, at least, be observed in securing the conditions which were obtained for Poland; and it would be strange indeed if the House were to hesitate in adopting this course on this particular day, when a Convention had been laid on its Table, securing to Russia advantages, at the expense of this country, in consideration of her firm adherence to the very treaty in question. England was especially bound to appeal; for what was the situation in which England stood when the Treaty of Vienna was framed? Was it not the most splendid position which this or any other country ever attained?—a position purchased by more than twenty years' struggle—by more than twenty years' magnanimity; purchased with a prodigality of treasure, purchased with the blood of the best and the clearest of her sons; a position which made England, for a moment, the permitted umpire and arbitress of the destiny of nations, and enabled her to "order peace, or war, her own majestic way." How far she made the best use of that golden opportunity he would not then stop to inquire; but, at least, he would say, that England, having thus presided over the formation of the Treaty of Vienna, was bound by all the ties of honour and good faith to protest against the violation of that treaty, when its violation was an inroad upon the happiness and independence of a nation. The Treaty of Vienna expressly mentioned, that Poland was to possess a constitution; and, in conformity with this stipulation, the Emperor Alexander erected Poland into a separate kingdom—gave her a charter, re-establish-

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ed the Diet, promised that Poles alone should be employed in the government of their country, and confirmed to Poland such other privileges and immunities as were necessary to her happiness and the preservation of her nationality. What, then, became of the maintenance of this part of the Treaty of Vienna, when the constitution of Poland was absolutely and entirely taken away—when the Charter was revoked—when the Diet was abolished—when strangers were to govern the land, and when Poland was made an integral part of the Russian empire. He acknowledged that Poland had been in a state of insurrection; but, when he acknowledged this, he must be permitted to say, that this insurrection was caused by repeated violations of the charter, and a series of unmerited wrongs. He acknowledged that Poland had been in a state of insurrection; but had not the penalty been abundantly paid? Could a whole nation be rightfully deprived of its constitution because a part of it had resisted? Confiscation, the scaffold, and the deserts of Siberia, had punished the act of disobedience; but were generations yet unborn to suffer for the error of their fathers? Were those who guaranteed the Treaty of Vienna to be for ever deprived of the redeeming part of their bargain? Insurrection was transitory—the penalty should be transitory also. A nation was eternal, and so were its rights. This was not the way for Russia to make Poland an useful part of her empire. The pen of autocracy might efface a name from the map, but the power of autocracy could not annihilate a country—could not teach the Poles to forget they once were a nation, or crush the recollections and the virtues which ages had confirmed. Not all the power of all the Russias would ever be able to Russianize Poland. If patriotism was the pride of the prosperous, it was the last support of the miserable—that consolation to which they clung the more, the more they were oppressed. If Greece, after centuries of Turkish tyranny, was again springing into life, could Russia hope ever to destroy Poland? No! she might make Poland a heap of ashes, but the embers would still be glowing beneath—she might stifle the very groans of her victims, but, though their curses might not be loud, they would be deep. All the kindly feelings of their hearts—all lofty aspirations—all the tender affections—ambition, duty, love—all would be lost, absorbed, in one
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wild, burning, thought, and that would be—revenge! Think of a gallant nation reduced to this extremity. Think of Poland reduced to this. Vengeance her only hope—hugged to her heart as a miser hugs his gold—transmitted, a fatal secret, from father to son—whispered in confidential meetings, acknowledged by conventional signs—always suspected, always existing—never discovered, till at last revealed in flame and in blood. Such a state of perpetual disquiet, such a source of lasting weakness would Russia prepare for herself if she persevered in her present severities; but, if generosity and sound policy re-assumed their sway in her councils, Poland might yet become the brightest gem in the Imperial crown. Something must be left to generous natures, something on which their feelings could repose; especially the feelings of those who had seen brighter days. Kindness might win where force could not subdue: let Russia reflect on this—let her see her own interest in its true point of view—let her pause—let her reconsider. Poland might yet be saved, and Europe satisfied.
Mr. Pigottsaid, that the destruction of Poland was chiefly attributable to the culpable apathy of England and France in 1792. The annihilation of Poland then took place. He regretted it as much as any man in this House; and he hoped this Government would not pledge itself to pay any money on the Russian loan until the Treaty of Vienna was fully carried into effect.
Mr. Ruthvenwas happy to hear, that the name of England had acquired a better character at the Treaty of Vienna than the world was inclined to attribute to the noble Lord who was our Ambassador on that occasion. He deprecated the barbarous atrocities of Russia, and thanked God the people of England and the Members of this House had spoken out so boldly upon the subject. The money of England should not be sent to the emperor of Russia, to pay those troops who had sacrificed the people, the nation, the laws, the language, and best institutions of Poland. The resources of this country should not be directed to the support of a despotism which the people of England abhorred.
Sir Robert Inglisexpressed his surprise at the language which had been held in that House towards the emperor of Russia. He was surprised that the right hon. Secretary opposite, and the other members of

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his Majesty's Government should have suffered seven Members to proceed with such language ["hear!" and "suffered,"]—he meant, without its being noticed. He considered such language to be a most improper use of the freedom of debate in that House. Such language was highly improper in relation to a private individual; but when a sovereign—one, too, with whom this country was in alliance—was termed a miscreant conqueror; when the hon. and learned Gentleman used such language as that—
Mr. Cutlar Fergusson: I did not say so.
Sir Robert Inglisdid not mean that hon. Gentleman, but another hon. and learned Member, who was then absent (the member for Kerry), he could not withhold his surprise that no comment was made by any member of his Majesty's Government He was not to be understood as giving any opinion for or against the Motion. He had an opinion, which he should reserve; but he must observe, that if such language were used in that House, there could be very little prospect of maintaining peace.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that no person could regret more than he did the expressions which had been uttered by the hon. member for Kerry. He had, however, previously spoken; and he did not conceive himself responsible for the language of hon. Members. He did not feel himself justified in interrupting the hon. Member, so long as he did not intrude upon the order of the House.
Mr. Beaumontwas surprised that the noble Lord should disapprove of the expressions which had been made use of towards the emperor of Russia. For his part, he was delighted with them. He entirely concurred with the hon. Member, that the emperor of Russia was a micreant. As a country gentleman, the Representative of a very large county, he would repeat those words. He relied on the spirit which would be evinced by the people of England, under a Reformed Parliament. They would speak in a voice that could not be mistaken.
Mr. Humeagreed with the hon. Gentleman who spoke last. An hon. Member complained that the emperor of Russia was called a miscreant; why, he would call him a monster in human form. If he knew language by which he could more strongly express his detestation, he would use it. He wondered that the hon. member for the University of Oxford should
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venture in that House to address a Minister of the Crown, and ask him why he suffered such language to be used there. Why it was not in his power to prevent it.
Sir Robert Inglis: I said, "without noticing it."
Mr. Hume: I ask, what were the words to which the hon. Member alluded.
Sir Robert Inglis: I stated the words, "miscreant conqueror."
Mr. Humewould repeat those words. They were too weak to express his feelings of detestation at the barbarities which had been exercised towards Poland. He would ask, were the accounts of the conduct of Russia untruly or unfairly stated? If anything stated by his hon. friend, the member for Kerry, was untrue, let any Member stand up in his place and deny it. If true, he asked any man possessing the feelings of a Briton, whether such language was not weak when compared to such atrocity? He had that day attended a large meeting of his fellow-countrymen, where the strongest sympathy was expressed towards unhappy Poland, and he was convinced that the whole nation participated in that sympathy.
Mr. Wysesaid, that this was not the first time that he had heard great tenderness recommended towards the emperor of Russia, who was, perhaps, the most questionable sovereign in Europe. Liberty of speech on such subjects as these was highly desirable; and it was an idle thing to suppose that it was possible, by diplomacy or cunning, to check the just indignation of the people of this country. He felt much pride in believing that, by such debates as these, they were raising a moral barrier against the inroads of Russian despotism, and he was, therefore, grieved to find that there was one man in that House who thought proper to deprecate such a discussion. The hon. Gentleman then went on to contend, that the constitution that had been given to Poland, pursuant to the Congress of Vienna had been violated in every respect; and in the place of liberty, oppression and despotism had been dealt out to them. It was sufficient to show what was the tendency of Russian policy towards Poland, by stating the one fact, that in spite of all remonstrance—in spite of all petitioning—Constantine had still been allowed to tyrannize over Poland, until at last the Poles had nothing left but the last appeal to the sword; and nobly had they made that appeal. Though the

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noble attempt of the Poles had failed, yet he did not despair: the force of moral influence would do much; and success must finally attend their cause, when it was known that the united voice of England was in favour of that magnanimous but unfortunate people.
Mr. Baringsaid, that although the hon. Member who had just sat down thought proper to reprimand his hon. friend, the member for Oxford, for complaining of the strong language used by the hon. and learned member for Kerry, yet he (Mr. Baring) thought, that the tone of moderation and good taste with which the hon. Member himself always addressed the House, was at least a tacit reflection upon the language complained of. He concurred entirely with his hon. friend, the member for Oxford that it was not necessary to go into a discussion of the feelings of any Gentleman who might allow himself to use expressions of that description; but he must still maintain, that the old practice of that House had been, when speaking of the Sovereigns and other great Powers of Europe, especially those in alliance with this country, to do so with a decency and propriety of language. This practice had, at least, the utility that it tended to maintain the peace of the world; for it was a fact, that conflicts between nation and nation often originated from irritations of that description, and for the many years he had sat in that House, such expressions were not suffered to pass by without comment. Undoubtedly it showed that the great progress of civilization, of which the world so much boasted, had not operated there. When speaking thus of Sovereigns, he would not exclude from the same rule the President of the United Sates; in fact, the more that free governments were established in the world, the more sensitive they were to allusions of that kind, which were calculated on all occasions to rouse an unfriendly spirit amongst nations. Therefore he held the interference of his hon. friend was most useful, in bringing them back to the old rules of the House. He rose principally to express his opinion on that subject. The question of Poland, which had been raised by the hon. member for Kirkcudbright, as the hon. member for Kerry had said, was more a matter of feeling than of interest to this country; as a matter of feeling it was of great importance, but as a matter of national interest, he did not
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regard it of any great consequence; nor did he think the Russian power to be so threatening to the peace of the world as had been described. From considerations of humanity he could not suppose a case more affecting than that which Poland presented; and he admitted to the fullest extent the title of that nation to the sympathy of the world. Without looking into the question of the nature of the rebellion—and a more righteous rebellion never manifested itself in any country—he would merely notice the character of the government imposed upon Poland. What was that government? The empire of Russia had rejected the lawful heir, as being unfit to reign over that nation; and yet Poland—unhappy Poland—was the unfortunate victim over which that man was appointed to reign. Though he had himself condemned the use of strong language, yet he did not know in what terms to describe the character of that individual, whom all Europe, though at that period more peculiarly enamoured with the doctrines of legitimacy, still universally condemned. No person who heard what passed in Poland but knew that the greatest provocation had been given to the people of that country. At the same time he must add, that this country was not called upon, and would not be justified in attempting to redress the wrongs of other countries, nor could we be expected under any circumstances to sally forth to redress the injuries sustained by them. He, however, hoped that the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department would use his influence, in conjunction with the parties to the Treaty of Vienna, to enforce with temperance, and at the same time with firmness, the stipulations of that agreement. The hon. Member concluded by observing, that those who voted for the payment of 5,000,000 l. to Russia, on the score of policy could not justify that vote but by admitting the necessity of a conciliatory policy.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that the member for Thetford would have them "mince their words, and mollify damnation with a phrase." He was right; but he should make allowance for others, who himself had had sometimes occasion for indulgence towards his vocabulary; and it would not be amiss for him to consider a man as pardonable for speaking of a miscreant on his throne, as for speaking of his fellow-citizens (a portion of the English people) as "blackguards in the streets." The hon. member for Oxford had been the first to

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find fault with this fervour in favour of the Poles. But was he not the man who had introduced the case of the Vaudois into that House? What were the bursts of eloquence that emanated from the hon. Baronet on that occasion? In what terms did he not denounce the oppression with which his fellow-religionists were treated? But this evening how soft, mellifluous, and gentle, had he become! His words had fallen like drops of honey from his lips in speaking of the emperor of all the Russias. The member for Thetford, however, had not followed his example. It was true, that he had no objection to pay reverence to an Emperor, perhaps on the principle that others were ready to "respect the Devil for his burning throne." But, nevertheless, he ventured to condemn the conduct of Nicholas, and would not trust himself with writing Constantine's epitaph. For his part, he (Mr. Sheil) would not call Nicholas a miscreant; because, when he saw a man delegating his brother, into whom the spirit of Nero must have transmigrated—if there was a metempsychosis among despots, to tread the heart of Poland out—when he saw him betraying a nation of heroes into submission, and then transporting them to Siberia, shaving off the grey hair of nobles with the blood of Europe's saviours in their veins; degrading and enslaving women, sparing neither age nor sex, and thrusting the hand of a ruthless and Herod-like infanticide into the cradle of Polish childhood. When he saw him acting thus, and leaving himself nothing to add to damnation, he would not call him "miscreant," because the word was too poor and incommensurate with his depravity, but exclaim, "Oh, thou art worse than words can give thee out."
Mr. Maurice O'Connellexpressed a hope that the hon. Baronet would explain away the terms that he had used towards the hon. and learned member for Kerry, which in his (Mr. M. O'Connell's) opinion, were highly unparliamentary. Did the hon. member for Oxford mean to say, that the hon. and learned member for Kerry would not say in the presence of the Ambassadors what he had said in that House? He remembered to have read the strong language used by Mr. Canning, in relation to the President of the United States of America, and that was quite as bad as any that had fallen from the hon. member for Kerry.
Sir Robert Inglisdid mean that the
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language used by the hon. member for Kerry was very improper. The hon. and learned Member had applied the word miscreant to an absent person, and such language was, in his opinion, unbecoming in any hon. Member; he merely stated his view of the matter without meaning to give any offence to any hon. Member.
Sir Robert Peelcould not help expressing his satisfaction that the Motion shortly to be put from the Chair was of a character so different from the tone of this debate. It pledged the House to no particular line of conduct, but called for that information, the possession of which, in an official shape, was necessary to enable it to form a judgment, and he must say, he wished many Members had waited for that information before they had expressed such decisive opinions. It was well for hon. Gentlemen to say that now was the time for France and England to unite, in order to compel the other Powers of Europe to adopt a certain line of policy; but the House must be sensible, that there was a moral obligation imposed upon a great country like this, to weigh well, before enteringin to it, the justice of a war, the probability of its success, and all its possible consequences. It was our duty, no doubt, also to consider what were our engagements to other countries, and no fear of war should prevent us from fulfilling those engagements; but, before they lightly determined on war, and undertook to predict its success and limit its consequences, let them well consider the position in which the country stood, and what it was bound in good faith to do. The hon. and learned Mover had, therefore, pursued the proper course, by calling, in the first instance, for information. He considered it important that no obligation contracted under the Treaty of Vienna ought to be kept out of view; but there was another document required in order to supply all the means for judging of this question—he meant the constitution granted to Poland by Alexander, the production of which he would suggest as an addition to this Motion. He should not have done this, had the noble Lord objected to the Motion as interfering with pending negotiations. The hon. and learned Gentleman had fortified his claim to the sympathy of Parliament and the country, by referring to the severities which had been inflicted by Russia subsequently to the insurrection. He was the last person

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to vindicate the infliction of those severities—that is to say, if it were clearly ascertained that they had been inflicted He could only consider them impolitic in the extreme, for he did not understand how the affections of any country could be conciliated by such a course of proceeding He doubted its justice as well as its policy; but, before he joined in the indignation which had been expressed, he wished to be quite certain that the allegations were true, and would suspend his judgment till he was satisfied upon that point. H had too often known accusations brought against persons in that House prove, on inquiry, to be erroneous, to give hasty credit to those preferred against persons at a distance, and living under another government. Statements had been even made of transactions taking place in the very streets of London, published in all the newspapers, and noticed in Parliament as undoubted facts, and then, the very next day, they had been contradicted, in the most positive manner, by the heads of public departments, and declared to b without the shadow of a foundation. If it were true, as had been asserted, that hundreds of young children had been daily removed from Poland—nay, if an number, however limited, had been torn from their parents, for the purpose of being transferred to a foreign land, it would be not only impossible to attempt a vindication of such proceedings, but impossible to avoid participating in the indignation which had been expressed. With respect to the language which had been applied to the emperor of Russia, he cordially concurred with his hon. friends, the member for the University of Oxford, and the member for Thetford, in deprecating such language. He must protest against the emperor of Russia—a foreign sovereign with whom the country was in alliance—being called a miscreant, and the king of France denounced as a stock jobbing sovereign and a traitor. The hon. member for Middlesex said, that the protests of his hon. friends and himself were attempts to interdict the freedom of speech. They were the very reverse: they were in themselves the exercise of that freedom. A Member might, if he thought fit, use such language, but other Members had as clear a right to enter their protest against it. He would venture to say, that the gallant Poles, the objects of their sympathy never indulged in such expressions: they
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felt the hand of oppression, and resorted to the most vigorous means of redress, and their dignified remonstrances excited more sympathy throughout Europe than if they had exhausted the whole vocabulary of Billingsgate for the purpose of abusing their opponents. He did not deny the right of the hon. member for Middlesex to apply these indecorous expressions of abuse, or the right of the member for Louth to abstain from using them, on the ground that, even with his copious command of language, he could find none adequate to express his feelings; but he doubted whether it were politic to rally round the Emperor of a powerful country the proud and independent feelings of his own subjects, through indignation at the insults offered to their Sovereign. Did hon. Members imagine that a continual tone of insult in the French Chambers, applied to King William 4th, would tend to conciliate the feelings of England, or obtain from England the redress of any wrong of which France might have to complain? Would not every man in the nation feel that his independence was insulted, if the sovereign, who was his organ of communication with foreign countries, was continually loaded by foreigners with opprobrious epithets? So far from such a mode of expressing their sentiments advancing the object in view, it must inevitably retard it, first by diminishing respect for their character, and next by making it almost impossible to yield to menace and insult that which might, readily be conceded to moderate and decorous remonstrance. We had had experience in the history of our own times, that, national disputes might be embittered by the incautious use of insulting language. The learned Gentleman who spoke last, justified the use of violent expressions by the example of Mr. Canning in our disputes with the United States. He doubted whether Mr. Canning himself, if he were now alive, would admit the justification. If the learned Gentleman would refer to an earlier period of our controversies with the United States, he might learn, that a whole nation resented the insulting tone assumed by Mr. Wedderburn towards Franklin. In short, all experience proved the policy of abstaining from the use of such language. Such, too, had been the usual practice of the House, and, when that practice had been violated, some Members of the House had always expressed their dissent from, and regret at,

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the violation. He did not think, then, that the noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, could possibly have said less than he did in deprecation of the course that had been pursued. If the anticipations of hon. Gentlemen were, that a Reformed Parliament would be infinitely more abusive, he hoped the Members of a Reformed Parliament would follow the example of that hon. Member, who, in the course of the debate, had quoted the sentence of Bacon with respect to strawberry-beds. He was led to expect from the hon. Member himself some strong expression that would deeply embitter the animosities of the debate, but when the hon. Gentleman calmly referred to Lord Bacon's excellent chapter on gardens, and said that the victories of the Russians over the Poles would be like trampling upon strawberry-beds, he felt greatly relieved. The hon. Member would probably himself be in a Reformed Parliament, and he trusted he would set the example of inflicting censure in language so figurative, and so void of offence, that no foreign Power would probably understand, and certainly would never resent it. No man would more strenuously remonstrate against an infraction of public faith than he would; but there was no man who had a more cordial abhorrence of war, and no one who felt more strongly the public calamity which war would inflict upon the whole world, than himself; and he thought it would be prudent, if, before indulging their sympathies and feeling, they saw a clear case made out as to the extent of the obligations imposed upon this country, as to the chances of success, and the probability of aiding those who might be the objects of the national sympathy. It was impossible to avoid expressing admiration of the Poles; but, knowing what he did of the personal character of the Emperor Nicholas—understanding what had been his uniform conduct with respect to his own subjects—hearing the testimony in his favour of the noble Lord opposite, which he was sorry to find him disposed so hastily to retract—he could not credit, without full proof, the infliction of severities which would not only be unjust, but most impolitic. Upon this, then, as upon all other occasions, he entreated those who might be in a Reformed House of Commons, to consider well before they entered into any precipitate resolution likely to involve this
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country in war; but, if they should come to such a resolution, the more temperate the language in which it was couched, the more credit would the world give them for intending to abide by it.
Motion agreed to.

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of the Earl of MORLEY, an Account of the Highest and Lowest Price at which, according to the Official Returns published in the London Gazette, Wheat has been sold in each of the twenty-four years, from June, 1808, to June, 1832, inclusive, stating the difference or fluctuation between the Highest and Lowest Prices in each year; the Average of Fluctuation in each three years, and the Average Price of each year as taken from the weekly Returns.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of LEINSTER, from Clog-been and Shanraham, for a Revision of the Criminal Code.—By the Earl of RADNOR, from Monaghan, for as extensive and efficient a Reform for Ireland as has been granted to England.—By the Marquess of SLIGO, from two Places in Ireland,—in favour of the Ministerial Plan of Education (Ireland).—By Lord KING, from five Places in Ireland, for the Abolition of Tithes, Church Rates, and Vestry Taxes.

TITHES (IRELAND), SECOND REPORT.
The Marquess of Lansdownlaid on the Table the Second Report of the Select Committee on Tithes in Ireland, accompanied with minutes of the Evidence taken before it. The noble Marquess said, that as Bills would be immediately introduced in the other House of Parliament on this important subject, he should content himself at present with moving, that the Report which he had now presented, and the evidence which accompanied it, should be read.
The Report read.
The Marquess of Lansdown moved, that the Report and the minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee be printed.
Lord Carberyexpressed a hope that this Report would be taken into consideration, and a discussion had upon it, before the Bills alluded to came up from the other House.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that this Report was so similar to the second Report of the Tithe Committee in the House of Commons, that it would appear that both Reports were the manufacture of the same hand. As far as he understood those

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Reports, he was ready to say, that he would give them, generally speaking, his support, as he felt that the measures which they recommended, and which were about to be founded upon them, would be calculated to allay disturbance in Ireland, and to give satisfaction both to the clergy and laity there. He had only to regret that this Report came at such a late period of the Session, and that it had not accompanied the first Report from this Committee, to which was to be attributed a great portion of the evils that now afflicted Ireland on the subject of tithes. That first Report, in recommending the extinction of tithes in that country, had since completely carried into effect that recommendation.
The Marquess of Westmeathwarned his Majesty's Ministers not to nail their colours to the mast on the question of tithes, for he could state, from his own practical knowledge, that the popular feeling in Ireland had become quite fanatical on that subject.
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that the similarity of the two Reports, to which the noble Earl had alluded, had naturally arisen from the circumstance of the Committees of both Houses having fully investigated the subject, in the same spirit, and with the same determination to arrive at those conclusions which the facts laid before them would warrant. The thorough sifting to which this important matter had been subjected, was the cause of the delay that had occurred in the presentation of this Report. He should have been as glad as the noble Earl if this Report could have accompanied the first Report on this subject, but when their Lordships reflected on the deliberate consideration which the Committee had to give to this subject, and on the time which they had to devote to the investigation and comparison of the several statements laid before them, and when their Lordships were informed, that it was only on the last day of the sitting of the Committee that some valuable statements, which would materially influence their Lordships' judgment in the question, had been obtained, their Lordships would see that it would have been impossible for the Committee, on a subject of such magnitude and importance, to come to a definitive Report at an earlier period; and though he admitted that it was most desirable that they should legislate with rapidity on this subject, they
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should not legislate on it at the expense of justice and discretion.
The Duke of Cumberlandwished to know, if the Bills of which the noble Marquess had spoken would be introduced this Session?
The Marquess of Lansdown: Yes, immediately.
The Earl of Wicklowwished to know, whether the three bills recommended in the Report would be all brought forward this Session?
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that they would be all introduced in the other House of Parliament.
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that if such a system as this should be established in Ireland, a long time would not elapse before it would be demanded also in England. Such important measures as the noble Marquess had alluded to, ought not to be brought forward at such a late period of the Session, when it would be utterly impossible to have a proper discussion upon them. If those Bills should be introduced in the other House, they could not be before that House until the end of July, when most of their Lordships would be out of town. He understood that the notice for their introduction in the other House had been just postponed till this day week, and that at a period of the Session when a week was worth a month. It was impossible for their Lordships to get through, properly, the great mass of business which was thus rolled in on them towards the termination of a Session, and one cause of which was, that so few measures originated in that House.
Earl Greysaid, that one cause of the load of business which came before their Lordships at the end of a Session, and to which the noble Earl had alluded, was, that many bills, such as Money Bills, could only originate in the other House of Parliament. The great accumulation of business which pressed on their Lordships towards the end of a Session was to be lamented, and should be avoided if possible; but it had always been so, and its being so now was not attributable to any want of diligence on the part of the other House of Parliament. During the present Session, for five out of six days in the week the House of Commons had sat, on an average, from five o'clock in the day until two o'clock in the morning, and it was impossible for it to get through more business than it did. He regretted that

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such an important subject as this should come before their Lordships at such a late period of the Session, but the pressing nature of the case was such, that it was absolutely indispensable for their Lordships to apply their minds to it, in order to put this unfortunate subject on a better footing if possible. With regard to the postponement of the introduction of the Bills in the other House until next week, that postponement was not attributable to the right hon. Gentleman who was to introduce them, but it was forced upon him by those who objected to the introduction of the measures, until the evidence was printed, and in the hands of the Members. It was impossible to refuse such a request, and that was the cause of the postponement of the Bills until this day week. As soon as they were introduced, he could assure their Lordships that they would be passed through the other House with all possible expedition, consistent with that careful consideration which was due to such an important subject. His Majesty's Ministers could not answer for the delays which might be interposed to the progress of the measure by those who were opposed to it, but, on their parts, no diligence should be wanting to push it through Parliament, and bring the subject to a conclusion. He was ready to admit, that there never was an important subject brought before Parliament which was accompanied with greater difficulties, but he trusted that the discussions on it would be conducted with no party feeling or spirit, but solely with a view to the settling of a question, until the settlement of which was effected, the prosperity and happiness of that interesting portion of his Majesty's dominions, which he believed was capable of a greater degree of prosperity than any other part of them, could never be established upon anything like a permanent footing.
Lord Carberyrepeated his anxious hope, that they should have a discussion on this subject before the Bills came up from the House of Commons.
Lord Ellenboroughconcurred in the opinion just expressed by his noble friend. When those bills should come before that House, it would be impossible to obtain such an attendance of their Lordships as there ought to be on such an important subject. It would be in accordance both with precedent and reason, for his Majesty's Ministers, on such an important subject, to propose resolutions to the
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House, confirmatory of the Report now presented, and in that way a discussion would he had on the subject at once.
The Earl of Wicklow, thought that the second Bill of the three Bills recommended in the Report might originate in that House, and that thus the progress of the measures would be considerably facilitated.
Lord Bexleysuggested, that the deductions which it was proposed by the Report to make from the incomes of the clergy, equivalent to the expense now incurred by them in the collection of their tithes, should be appropriated to the increase of the value of small livings, and to the building of churches in Ireland.
The Report and the evidence ordered to be printed.

RUSSIAN-DUTCH LOAN—CONVENTION WITH RUSSIA.
Earl Grey presented to the House, by his Majesty's command, a copy of the Convention between his Majesty and the Emperor of all the Russias, and moved that it be printed.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that the noble Earl had departed from the usual practice of laying such documents simultaneously before both Houses, for a copy of this treaty had been yesterday laid before the House of Commons. He perceived from that copy, that this convention was signed on the 16th of November, 1831, and that by the first article of it, his Majesty engaged to recommend to his Parliament to enable him to make the payments guaranteed by the convention of 1815. When he recurred to the date of the convention, and when he recollected the arguments which had been made use of by his Majesty's Government, to justify the payment of these monies without the sanction of Parliament, he thought that there must be some mistake as to its date, and that it should be the 16th of June instead of the 16th of November, 1831. He would offer no opinion as to this convention now, as, seeing that his Majesty engaged to apply to Parliament to enable him to fulfil the engagements it contained, he presumed that the noble Earl would, at some time, and in some manner, call upon the House to do so, and that then they would be enabled to discuss the subject of this treaty. He observed that in this convention the two Powers referred to the convention of the 19th of May, 1815, and to an additional article connected with that convention. He believed that

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there was an additional article to the treaty of the 15th of May, which had never yet been laid before Parliament. Now, as the contents of that article might form part of the justification of his Majesty's Ministers for entering into this convention, he supposed the noble Earl would have no objection to the production of that document.
Earl Greysaid, that with respect to the first point alluded to by the noble Earl, that of informality in not laying the paper before the two Houses on the same day, he had only to state, that he was on his way yesterday to that House, for the purpose of laying the papers before their Lordships, when he was met by several noble Lords, who informed him that the House had already adjourned. With respect to the other question of the noble Earl, he was not aware that he could, at that moment, give him any information. As to the additional article of May 15, he did not know that it had not been laid before Parliament. If it had not been produced, he supposed that some reason existed for adopting that course. For his own part, he was not aware of any objection to a compliance with the suggestion of the noble Earl. He hoped, however, that the noble Earl would not press for a positive answer, until he (Earl Grey) had an opportunity of making some inquiry on the subject.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR SCOTLAND—FIRST READING.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he should, without any observation, call the attention of their Lordships to the Scotch Reform Bill, which had that evening been brought up from the other House. He should move "That the Bill be now read a first time." It might then be printed, preparatory to the Second Reading,—Bill read first time

SCHOOLS OF ANATOMY.
The Earl of Radnorpresented a Petition from William Cobbett, against the Anatomy Bill. The petitioner, in an elaborate essay, opposed the measure, and contended, that a due degree of anatomical knowledge could be procured without resorting to the provisions contained in this Bill.
The Earl of Malmesburyobserved, that this Bill pressed hardly upon the poor, who would be most affected by its operation. The body of a poor man who died in the hospital, in consequence of an accident, might, if not claimed within a certain time, be made use of in the dissecting-
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room. Perhaps the individual himself might not care if his body were so treated; but he begged of their Lordships to look a little further, and consider what might be the feelings of his family. Individuals, perfect strangers in town, frequently sought for employment in the metropolis. They might, while employed by a builder, or any other tradesman, meet with accidents productive of death. Some time might elapse before their relatives were apprized of their fate, and then they would be horror-struck when they found that their bodies were consigned to the dissecting-room. If something could be done to obviate the objections that could fairly be raised against this measure, and, at the same time, to furnish an adequate number of bodies for the purposes of dissection, it would give him very great satisfaction.
The Earl of Mintosaid, that the poor were more concerned than any other portion of the community in the dissemination of surgical knowledge. In his opinion, therefore, no such inconveniences as those which had been adverted to by his noble friend ought to be allowed to stand in the way of this measure. In consequence of the extreme scarcity of subjects, those who were employed to supply the surgeons had, in many instances, been guilty of the most frightful crimes. One man, who had been executed at Edinburgh, confessed to the murder of between twenty-five and thirty persons; another individual, who had more recently undergone the sentence of the law, confessed to two murders. He also admitted two cases in which murder had been attempted, but the attempt had failed; and, on the morning of his execution, he was on the point of confessing another murder, when he was interrupted in his recital.
Lord Wynfordsaid, he had been informed by a highly respectable practitioner, that a full supply of subjects could be obtained without resorting to the provisions of this Bill.
The Earl of Mintoadmitted that it would be an improvement, if the provisions of the Bill could be so framed as not to point out so distinctly as it did, that its operation had reference to a particular class.
Petition laid on the Table.

VACATION OF SEATS IN PARLIAMENT.
The Marquess of Northampton, in postponing, sine die, the second read-

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ing of the Bill to prevent Members of the House of Commons from vacating their seats on accepting office, said, that he was not one of those who entertained the opinion, that the subject to which the Bill referred was one with which their Lordships had no right to interfere. In bringing the question forward he had not been actuated by any party spirit. He was not impelled by a desire to serve any party; his motives were purely of a public nature. His reason for now moving the postponement of the Bill was, because, as they had arrived at so late a period of the Session, he feared that it would not be possible to carry the measure through. If some individual of greater influence than himself did not take up the subject, he would himself, at a future period, again bring it forward.
The order for the second reading of the Bill discharged.