Sitting of 15 August 1832

MINUTES.
Petition presented. By Mr. Hunt, from the Political Union at Gateshead, for the Discharge of the Soldier Somerville.

FORGERY.
Lord Althorpmoved, in the first place, that their Lordships' Amendments to the Forgery Bill be agreed to. the Amendments, he observed, which their Lordships had made, related to the crimes of forging wills, and of forging powers of attorney for the transfer of stock. He confessed,
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that when the measure was before that House, he was an advocate for the total abolition of the punishment of death ill all cases of forgery. On reflection, however, he thought perhaps, that it might be better not to abolish all the capital cases of forgery at once, and he regarded the extent to which the Lords allowed the measure to go as a very great point gained, for amongst the variety of cases, only two were excepted. It had been asked of him by an hon. Member, who had just taken his seat, whether any representation had been made to him on the subject of the present Bill by the Bank of England? In reply to that he had only to say, that he had had a conversation with the Governor of the Bank, but he had not received any formal communication whatever. Thus much, however, he thought himself fully warranted in stating, namely, that the wish of the Bank of England certainly was, to retain the punishment of death in all cases where powers of attorney were forged for the transfer of stock. The noble Lord concluded by moving that the Amendments be agreed to.
Sir Edward Sugdendid not rise for the purpose of objecting to or opposing the Amendments made by the other House of Parliament, because he, for one, though he should be glad if the punishment of death could with propriety be done away with in cases of forgery, would at once acknowledge that he concurred in the Amendments which had been made in the other House of Parliament; and he could have wished that the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not given way to his humanity. There was one point to which he could not help adverting, and that was the forgery of wills. In these instances professional men possessed the most unlimited confidence of the parties making them. The opportunities which they possessed of committing frauds were far beyond that which could by possibility be possessed by any other class of persons; and in no other country besides England was such unbounded confidence placed in any body of men, as was placed in England, in men of the profession of the law. He therefore would say, let them see how this Bill, with the Amendments made by the House of Lords, would work; though, on the other hand, it might be necessary to extend the capital punishment in cases of gross breaches of private confidence.
Mr. Warburtonwas truly sorry that the Lords had thought proper to make the Amendments, which had been sent down

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to the House of Commons, but he hoped, nevertheless, that the Bill would be permitted to pass. The noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), had said, that he had received a remonstrance from the Directors of the Bank of England, on the subject of the abolition of death in all cases of forgery. He hoped that no objection would be made to that remonstrance being laid on the Table.
Lord Althorp: That remonstrance was only verbally made.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that he hoped that the noble Lord would not only state what were the terms of the remonstrance, but also what were the reasons upon which that remonstrance had been founded.
Lord Althorp: The statement upon which the objections of the Governors of the Bank of England were founded, was, that a great number of clerks were employed in the Bank of England, who, from the very nature of their employment, must be fully acquainted with the specific amount of stock, standing in each person's name. Now, all persons claiming dividends on stock, or principal so invested, were compelled to state to the uttermost farthing what amount they claimed for, and also to give the exact particulars, as to the profession, residence, &c., of each person, in whoso name the stock stood; hence it must be obvious that those persons who were clerks in the Bank of England had facilities put in their way for forgery which no other men possessed; and that, therefore, it was absolutely necessary to render the punishment in cases of forgery of powers of attorney the most severe which the law could inflict. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Edward Sugden) was quite mistaken in supposing that the reason why he had been anxious to abolish the punishment of death, arose from a morbid and over tender passion of humanity. The view which he had taken of the subject was simply this, that more good would be produced by the infliction of a secondary punishment, where the punishment was certain to be carried into effect, than by enacting a capital punishment for an offence when, under such a penalty, few men could be found to prosecute, and Juries were reluctant to convict. He felt more for the persons who suffered from the practices of those who committed forgeries, than he did for those who committed the crime. With respect to those objections, which were always, he thought, admissible in all other cases, he really thought that, in the case of the Bank of England, an exception
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to a general rule might be pleaded with great fairness. In the case of an individual the case was very different, and he must confess that, after every possible consideration of the question, he had great doubts as to the correctness of the opinions which he had at first entertained. He certainly felt it to be most inexpedient to reject this Bill; but he had more doubts as to the necessity of inflicting death in the case of forgery of wills, than he had of its infliction in cases of forgery of powers of attorney.
Mr. Humethought that the statement of the noble Lord showed a very good reason why the Bank of England should be the only exception to a general rule. But the reason why he admitted the necessity of abolishing the punishment of death, was his conviction that the severity of the law as it now stood, always, or at least generally, had the effect of permitting the culprit to go free. On this ground, then, he considered it was much to be lamented, that these Amendments had been made by the House of Lords. He had no hesitation in saying that it would be much better to reject the Bill altogether, than assent to them without some understanding as to their operation. He had stated to the noble Lord, that, up to the present period, particularly within the last two years and a half, the public feeling was and had been so strong on this point, that he much doubted whether or not the Amendments would be beneficial in their operation. He, therefore, felt it would be most advisable to allow the law to remain in its present state, and to reject this Bill, inasmuch as it might tend to make the infliction of the severest penalty of the law imperative upon persons now under sentence of death for certain offences, but whose sentence, as the law now stood, might be commuted. The noble Lord must be aware that there were many persons now under sentence of death, audit would indeed be hard to apply to their case that which might in many respects be considered an ex post facto law. But as he could not believe that the present Act would be interpreted to the prejudice of such unfortunate persons, he, in common with the noble Lord, felt disposed rather to agree in the Amendments sent up from the Lords than reject the Bill, because some improvement in the criminal law had certainly been obtained, though the two exceptions were made in respect to the punishment of death, in the cases of forgeries of wills and powers of attorney. He would however, again repeat his hope, that the present Bill would not affect persons now

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under sentence of death. He was satisfied that if the Legislature wished the laws to be properly enforced, it was their duty to see that the infliction of the sentence should be rendered certain; and it was upon that ground he argued, that when it lessened the punishment, but made its infliction sure, it best protected property. It must be evident that, under the existing system, the penalty as by law established, was so frightfully severe that few persons were to be found to enforce the punishment prescribed: and this feeling of repugnance to the law pervaded the judgments of those who ought not to entertain compassion in such cases. He had thought it right to state his views in connexion with this subject, and he hoped that, early next Session, some measures would be taken to revise the criminal law still further. By rendering punishment more certain, more good would be done to prevent crime, than the enactment of a multitude of new laws. Before he had come into the House, he had felt determined to take the sense of the House upon the propriety of rejecting the Amendments, but upon hearing the explanation of the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), he had been induced to waive in some degree his objections, because the Bill, with the alterations made in it by the Lords, was calculated to achieve a very great improvement in the existing law.
Mr. Wilkssaid, he hoped that in expressing his concurrence with what had fallen from his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, it would not be supposed that either he or his hon. friend acquiesced in the law as amended by the alterations made by the Lords. He considered that those alterations were only calculated to be temporary, and, under that feeling alone, he was induced to agree to the Bill as amended.
Mr. Huntsaid, he was very sorry that his Majesty's Attorney General was not present, and ready to defend his Bill. He had given him great credit upon his introducing the measure, for his laudable exertions in the cause of humanity; and he much regretted that that hon. and learned Gentleman, and other Members of the House of Commons were so ready to register the edicts of the House of Lords. It appeared to him, that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had altered his opinion very readily; not, perhaps, his own personal, but his political opinion; and it was quite clear, that if the House did not assent to these Amendments, the Bill must be lost. It was quite clear that the House had only
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to send a popular measure up to the House of Lords, and it followed as a matter of course, that they returned such measures with amendments, which served to make them most unpopular. The hon. member for Middlesex bad said, that he had been of opinion that it would be much better that the Bill should be thrown out, and in that first opinion of the hon. Member, he sincerely concurred; but he would not put the House to the trouble of dividing upon the question, inasmuch as he well knew that he should be unsuccessful in the attempt to reject the Bill; but he wished it to be clearly understood that he protested against the Amendments which had been made in the House of Lords. He thought it most preposterous that they should call themselves Representatives of the people, while they assented to the alterations which had been made, upon the plea that if they did not do so the Bill must be thrown out, because it had only reached its last stage at an advanced period of the Session. He begged to call the attention of the House to another Bill which had been lately passed. By the law as it stood previously, it was enacted that persons convicted of certain offences should be transported for various periods; but by the Amendments which had been made in the House of Lords, the sentence was made transportation for life, and it had been made imperative on the Judges to pass sentence accordingly, no discretion being left in the hands of the Judge.
The Attorney Generalsaid, he thought that the hon. Member for Preston might feel satisfied that he had done some good by not dividing the House upon this occasion; for whatever opinion might be entertained as to the amendments which had been made, it was quite clear that the Lords had taken away the punishment of death for forgery, except in two cases—those of forgery of a will, and of a power of attorney. He rejoiced at so much having been achieved, though he should have been better satisfied had the Lords given their sanction to the abolition of the punishment of death in all cases; and he would confess that he could not exactly distinguish the principle upon which the amendments had been made, because the arguments which had been urged on both points, would apply with equal, if not greater force to bills of exchange. Undoubtedly as to the forgery of wills, professional men had a great deal of confidence reposed in them, and that was a reason for punishing that species of forgery very

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severely. With regard to another Bill alluded to by the hon. member for Preston, he must say that he rejoiced it had become the law of the land, because he was sure it had effected a most important improvement in our criminal law.
Mr. Hunthad no objection to hang all lawyers who might be guilty of a breach of trust.
Amendments agreed to.

COMPOSITION OF TITHES (IRELAND).
Lord Althorp moved, that the Amendments made by the Lords in this Bill be agreed to.
Mr. Ruthvenagain protested against this Bill, and he also took that opportunity to protest against the doctrine lately attributed to the Lord Chancellor, that the Habeas Corpus Act could be suspended in Ireland at the mere dictum of the executive, and without application to Parliament on the subject. Such a doctrine, he said, was at variance with constitutional law, common law, and common sense. It was a doctrine, too, to which the expressed opinion of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was directly opposed. The hon. Member also condemned, in strong terms, the language attributed to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland at the late interview of his Excellency with the Cork deputation, on which occasion his Excellency was represented to have said, "One of those parties I have put down, and you want to mount and bestride them; but that shall not be, for I will master you both." He thought that such language was not the fittest that could be employed by the King's representative in Ireland.
Amendments agreed to.

AFFRAY AT CLITHERO.
Sir EdwardSugden said, he was sure that every hon. Member who was present at the discussion on this subject on a former evening, would remember that he (Sir Edward Sugden) then deplored as deeply as any one could, the violence which had been resorted to against the people, and that he regretted the necessity, if such there was, of the cavalry acting, in that instance, against the people. Hon. Members would perhaps recollect, that he went on to say, that this outrage was obviously a premeditated one, and that while what had occurred was to be regretted, it was, perhaps, to be considered as a happy termination to what might have been a still greater evil, and a more fearful outrage. Now, in
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an article in an evening paper, to which his attention had been that day called, his sentiments on this subject had been grossly misrepresented. It was there stated, that he viewed the cutting down of the people as a matter of indifference—that he hailed the termination of this affair as a happy one; and it was finally asked whether the House could have heard such sentiments without disgust? Now this he must say, on his own part, that he had not given expression to sentiments on that occasion that any one Member of that House would have been ashamed to utter. He had expressed his regret at what had occurred, and he had also expressed his opinion, that probably what had then taken place had prevented the occurrence of a still greater evil.
Mr. Humewished to know from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, whether one of the results of the inquiry on this subject was, that the military had been called in without the sanction of the bailiff of Clithero, and against his protest on the subject, and whether they had not proceeded to act before the Riot Act was read?
Mr. Lambsaid, that the protest of the bailiff of Clithero against the introduction of the military was made when he was only acquainted with a part of the outrage that had been committed; at that period the bailiff certainly thought that there was no necessity to send for the military, and he accordingly proceeded to stop them on their inarch to the town; on his way, however, he was convinced, from communications which reached him relative to the progress of the riot, of the propriety and necessity of calling in the military for the purpose of suppressing it. There was, in fact, no regular protest made by the bailiff against calling out the military, and the moment he was convinced of the propriety of such a step he acceded to it. With regard to the second question which had been put by the hon. Gentleman, he was ready to say that there was no doubt that the troops had entered the town before the Riot Act had been read; but no attempt was made on their part to disperse the crowd until the Riot Act had been read, not once only, but five times. The inquiry, as far as it had gone, had shown that the troops had acted with great forbearance, and under circumstances of great provocation, and he did not think that any blame attached to the Magistrates for their conduct in this instance.
Mr. Humewished to know whether the hon. Gentleman had any further information

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to communicate as to the reasons which the Magistrates assigned for calling out the troops, and whether he would state that any further steps would be taken to prosecute the inquiry on this subject?
Mr. Lambsaid, that there was such a mass of contradictory evidence on both sides on this subject, that he was not at present prepared to say what further steps would be taken towards the prosecution of an inquiry into the matter.
Mr. Huntsaid, that he had heard a very different version of this affair from that which had been given of it in that House. He would say, that if the elections of the people of England were hereafter to be carried on contrary to law, at the point of the bayonet, and under the surveillance of a military force, it was high time for the people of England to do that which The Times had recommended them to do last Christmas—namely, to arm themselves, in order to protect themselves against the aggressions of the borough mongers. Having been an eye-witness of the Manchester massacre, he would state that the grossest falsehoods had been uttered in that House on that subject, in order to screen the military, and it was not at all improbable that the same was the case in this instance. As to inquiries, all inquiries on the part of Government were mere farces, for they were only inquiries on one side of the question.
General Phippssaid, that the military had conducted themselves in this instance in the most exemplary manner.
Lord Althorp: I agree with the hon. member for Preston, in hoping that it may not be necessary to call in the military at any of the approaching elections, because it is unusual, and even contrary to law to call them in at the time of an election taking place; but if a riot takes place, it may become necessary to call them in, though this would only be justifiable in such a case. The hon. member for Preston says, that he hopes the people will arm for the purpose of resisting the aggression of the military. I hope that the law will always have power enough in this country to protect the people of England without their having to take the law in their own hands. I am satisfied that the advice given by the hon. Gentleman would produce the most serious evils. If the military act improperly, and the King's subjects are injured, the law is open to them; and I can assure the hon. Gentleman and the House, that the Government will not
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be slow to protect the people if they are improperly attacked. But if the people are thus called on to take the law in their own hands in a moment of irritation, and when no one can form a cool judgment, I am afraid that such a course will tend to produce the greatest calamities to the country. The doctrine of the hon. Gentleman, therefore, is one which I feel it necessary to protest against in the strongest manner. The hon. Gentleman, no doubt, thinks that inquiry in this case ought to be made: that inquiry has been made: but then he tells us, that if we do institute an inquiry, such an inquiry as that he does not care one farthing for, and that that is not what he wants.
Mr. Huntbegged to say, that he did not advise the people to arm. He had merely asked the question whether the time had not arrived when the advice given by The Times last winter for the purpose of carrying the Reform Bill—namely, that the people of England should arm themselves, to protect themselves against the aggressions of the borough-mongers—should be adopted by the people of this country? The noble Lord attributed to him different words, though perhaps not a different meaning.

QUALIFICATION UNDER THE REFORM ACT.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition from the Reform Association of Manchester, complaining of the cumbrous machinery, and the many inconvenient provisions of the Reform Bill. They prayed, that the whole of the Bill, with the exception of the disfranchising clauses, might be repealed. If some remedy was not applied before the next general election, to remove the objectionable provisions, it would be fatal to the peace of the country. This petition came from those very persons from whom the member for Westminster (Sir John Hobhouse) presented a petition, upon a former occasion, in support of the Bill.
Lord Althorpsaid, that he would take that opportunity to make a few observations in reference to what had fallen from the hon. and gallant member for Rye, on a former evening, with regard to the disqualifying effect of the Reform Bill, in Manchester and other places. Before doing so, however, he begged to remark, with respect to the present petition, that as it went to the extent of calling for the repeal of the whole of the Reform Bill, with the exception of the disfranchising clause, it would, should its prayer, by any possibility, be

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granted, go to deprive Manchester, and other large manufacturing towns, of Representatives. He, therefore, thought, that such a petition was entitled to no attention. His hon. and gallant friend (the member for Rye) stated, on a former evening, that the effect of the Reform Bill, unless some alteration should be made as to the payment of the rates, would be, that in Manchester there would be only 758 persons entitled to vote; that in Salford there would be only forty; in Bolton only 84; in Blackburn only 78; in Warrington 40; in Oldham 40; in Rochdale 38, &c. Now, he (Lord Althorp), in consequence of that statement, had received a communication from a most respectable gentleman in Manchester, well known to him, and who had ample opportunities of being accurately informed on the subject, and that gentleman's statement was, that instead of 758 voters, there would be, in the township of Manchester alone, 4,400 persons qualified to vote, and that the entire number of voters for the borough of Manchester would amount to from 7,000 to 8,000; that, in Salford there would be from 1,100 to 1,200 voters; that in Bolton, instead of only eighty-four, there would be 1,000 voters, there not being above ten persons there, who would be entitled to a vote under the Bill, disqualified from the non-payment of the rates, and that in Blackburn there would be 1,000 voters instead of seventy-eight. The information with regard to Blackburn came from a gentleman who had already actually canvassed 800 out of the 1,000 voters in that borough. He had not received any information with respect to Warrington, but, from the statement to which he had adverted, he felt warranted in saying, that the lowest number of voters in any of the boroughs that had been alluded to by his hon. and gallant friend, would be upwards of 700, which was, by no means, an inconsiderable constituency. He knew not on what grounds his hon. friend had made the statement in question; but it certainly was a most incorrect one. He could state that, at Preston there would be from 6,000 to 7,000 persons qualified to vote. He (Lord Althorp) felt happy in being able to make this statement, as he certainly confessed, that at the time his hon. and gallant friend made the statement to which he had alluded, he felt considerable apprehension lest the disqualifying effect which he attributed to the Reform Bill should proceed to the extent he represented. That statement, he was glad to find, was,
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as far as Lancashire was concerned, greatly exaggerated; and he hoped that the same would be found to be the case throughout the country.
Mr. Macaulayhad that morning had an opportunity of conversing with a gentleman from Yorkshire, who had told him that no inconvenience, such as that described by the gallant Officer, had been felt about Leeds, for that there the generality of the rates and taxes had been paid up, and he believed that the same statement might be made with respect to all the manufacturing towns in Yorkshire.
Colonel Evanswas very glad to hear the statement that had just been made by the noble Lord; and, in fact, if the noble Lord had not made that statement, he (Colonel Evans) should have risen for the same purpose, because he himself had received letters confirming the account just given by the noble Lord. In the reports that had been given of his former speech on this subject, it had been made to appear as if he had positively stated that the numbers in these different towns were such as had been just recounted by his noble friend. But the fact was, that he had only stated a supposititious case. He had said, "taking the standard of the parish of St. James in London, and reckoning the towns in Lancashire by the same rule, the effect will be so and so." He must, however, again repeat his belief, that it would be found that great disfranchisement would prevail at the time of registration in the metropolitan districts.
Mr. Duncombe: The noble Lord, on a former occasion, stated, that any scot-and-lot voter who had paid his rates up to the day of registration would be entitled to vote. I wish to ask him whether he meant the rates due to 5th April, or the rates due to the day of the registration?
Lord Althorp: I really think that these questions would be more fairly addressed to a lawyer than to me; but I apprehend that the law formerly was, that all rates must be paid by the scot-and-lot voters up to the day of the election; and all that is done by the present Bill is to put the day of registration vice the day of election. Therefore, where a voter claims under the old law, all rates must be paid up to the day of registration; and this would have been the case if we had adopted the proposition of giving all scot-and-lot voters, throughout the kingdom, the elective franchise.
Mr. Duncombe: Then I am able to state that not one elector in the parish of

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St. George, Westminster, will be entitled to vote. They have paid their rates up to 25th March; but, if required to pay them up to the day of registration, not one will be able to do that; indeed, I believe that it is already too late now to take such a step. I had an opportunity this morning of ascertaining that not one of the. 5,144 rate-payers in St. George's has qualified according to the opinion just delivered by the noble Lord; while, on the other hand, 4,180 of them have paid their rates up to Lady-last. And now the simple question is—Can they vote?
Lord Althorp: I omitted just now to state what I have already frequently stated, that those only are disqualified who refuse to pay when the demand is made on them. That is the old law of scot and lot voting; and that is equally applicable under the present Act, Besides, if they have all paid up to Lady-day, such as occupy 10 l. houses will be able to vote on that claim.
Mr. Duncombe: No, no!
Mr. Wilks: The noble Lord does not appear to be aware that subsequent rates have been made.
Mr. Duncombe: I understand that only twenty-two out of the whole parish have paid the last rate.
Sir John Hobhouse: When the collectors of the taxes give in their accounts to the Public Treasury, they are obliged to make affidavit that they have made the demand on all the rate-payers; so that it is impossible that any can escape that way.
Lord Althorp: My right hon. friend I having so long been a Member for a scot-and-lot borough, I am surprised that he is not aware that payment of taxes is not necessary to entitle a scot-and-lot elector to vote.
Sir George Warrenderwished to ask whether the Government would allow the register to be postponed? He understood the Paymaster of the Forces to have intimated that, in all probability, no new election would take place before December, in order to admit of the registration being perfectly completed. He, therefore, wished to ask the noble Lord whether there was any chance of a general election before the register was complete?
Lord Althorp: I think that it is quite impossible for a Minister of the Crown, consistently with his duty, to give an answer to that question. I, certainly, did state, on a former occasion, that there would be a great inconvenience in a general election taking place before the register
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was complete. I am willing to repeat that statement; but I think that I should be guilty of a dereliction of duty, were I to give any pledge as to the dissolution of Parliament; and I must, therefore, decline giving any answer to the hon. Baronet.
Sir Edward Sugdenapprehended that there was no danger of a general election, until the new bill had come into complete operation, and until after they had the benefit of the registration. Indeed, it would be the greatest calamity to the country if a dissolution should take place before that period. He was quite satisfied from the statement of the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) on a former evening, that there would be no dissolution until then, unless a great public necessity called for it. He, for one, always thought that this Bill imposed too many restrictions on the right of voting. He had endeavoured, when the measure was before the House to do away with some of them—such, for instance, as the payment of a shilling for registering; and he was sure that their existence would be productive of much dissatisfaction throughout the country.
Lord Althorpsaid, the reason for this part of the Bill, requiring the payment of a shilling on registration, was a very general complaint, that if the expense were thrown on the poor-rates, it would fall as well upon those who had no vote as those who had. He confesssd that, at first, he felt great objection to it. Country gentlemen complained that the burthen would press hard upon the payers of poor-rates if the expenses were charged upon that fund, and it was upon this consideration that it had been resolved that the payment of 1s. should rest with the party obtaining political privilege. It, certainly, was but a small payment, and those who objected to such a payment could not care much about the possession of that privilege which it was intended to secure; probably they did not want to have a vote at all. If the regulation respecting the payment of 1s. had been productive of so much evil as hon. Gentlemen represented, he, certainly, should deeply regret it; but still, the balance of inconvenience would have been the other way, had the other suggestion been adopted.
Mr. Humeadmitted that he had not foreseen the inconvenience or evil of the regulation for the payment of 1s. for registration. But the clause respecting the payment of rates and taxes was that which had been productive of the most mischief. Ministers had been warned of this effect of

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the clause by an hon. friend near him, who pointed it out as a fruitful source of bribery. He had himself seen letters, offering votes, upon the condition of the taxes of the voters being paid; and this proposition arose out of the distress of the voter, rather than any other feeling. The class now most distressed in the country was the class of tradesmen. He hoped that when the Bill came under consideration again, this provision of it would be duly modified. He was certain it would never give satisfaction until the qualification by payment of rates was changed, and he hoped that change would soon be effected.
Lord Althorpcould not help expressing his surprise at hearing the hon. member for Preston cheer the hon. member for Middlesex in the concluding sentences of his speech; for, if he was not very much mistaken, that hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hunt) had himself brought forward a motion to exclude all who had not paid their rates from voting.
Mr. Huntobserved, that this was the second time the noble Lord had tried to put him in the wrong. The noble Lord was, however, himself in the wrong. The motion he had made, and to which the noble Lord had referred, was not one of an excluding nature, but the contrary. The object of his motion had been to include in the right of voting all who paid scot and lot. He thanked the noble Lord for his kind intentions, but he guessed he had taken nothing by his motion. He (Mr. Hunt) hoped this tax qualification of voters would be altered. As to the effect of the clauses of this Bill, that effect would not be determined by the opinions of hon. Members in that House, but by the opinions of Barristers out of it; and if the Barristers did their duty, he affirmed that the greater part of Manchester would be disfranchised.
Sir John Hobhousewished his noble friend (Lord Althorp) would answer the question of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Duncombe), according to whose account a whole parish in Westminster would be disfranchised, by a mistake respecting the period up to which it was requisite their rates should be paid. The inhabitants of the parish in question had paid their rates up to the 25th of March, and the question was, whether they ought to have paid them to April? He hoped his noble friend would be able to give some satisfactory answer upon this point.
Sir EdwardSugden hoped that the noble Lord would give no answer to the question put to him. The interpretation of the Bill
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did not now belong to that House; it was in other hands, and must take its course as all other Acts did. However respectable the opinions of Members of that House, they would not in fact alter the true legal construction of any part of the Act. It was, therefore, most advisable, as well with reference to the respect due to the House itself as to the opinions of those who would have to decide upon the strict legal bearing of the Act in all its parts, without regarding the opinions of any, that they should abstain from uttering dicta which could not be availing.
Mr. Crippswished to be informed whether the old right of voting would be altered by the present Bill.
Lord Althorpcould not determine upon the legal effect of any particular clauses. His own opinion was favourable to the right.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, it appeared by the noble Lord's statement that the only way to obtain an opinion upon the meaning of any of the clauses was for the unfortunate candidate to come to that House and to have an Election Committee ballotted for. They were told not to give an opinion upon the subject. But, when he saw such a place as the city of Westminster nearly disfranchised by this Bill, he could not refrain from giving it as his opinion that it would be much better to have a short Session before dissolution than to go to an election with so imperfect and mischievous a measure. In the parish of St. Clement Danes, he understood, a great doubt existed about the franchise. The rate, it appeared, had been made up to June 2,5, and it was not called for from the inhabitants till the 2nd of August. Now the question was, whether the whole of that parish was disfranchised or not? The noble Lord (Lord Althorp) told them that the rate must have been demanded before the voter could be disqualified. But there were decisions of Committees of that House directly to the contrary effect. How were they to determine with such contradictory decisions before them.?
Sir George Warrenderthought it pretty clear, from the present discussion, that the Bill was good only for one party in the State, and that party was the lawyers. One man, it appeared, would be disfranchised because he did not choose to pay 1s.; another, because he did not pay his rates when they were demanded; and a third, because he did not pay rates before they were due, and before any application had been made to him for them. Thus was this incongruous

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and inconsistent Bill, fit for nothing but to furnish a rich harvest to be reaped by the lawyers.
The Attorney Generalstrongly condemned the system of asking and discussing questions upon points of law in that House. There were thirty or forty Gentlemen, each coming from a different place, and with different local circumstances as the foundation of his question, and each expecting to get an answer satisfactory and conclusive. He had always said, he would not answer any question which he had not on black and white, with the circumstances fully before him. He had given the same answer to his right hon. friends near him. For his own part he did not anticipate that there would be those difficulties in the way of the voter under this Bill which some imagined there would be; but he was quite sure that opinions hastily given, various and contradictory, such as were uttered in discussions of the kind then going on, and which by some means found their way out of doors, could only be productive of mischief.
Mr. Humethought his hon. and learned friend forgot that they sat in that House to correct the law. It was their duty to change the law if it was not adequate to its purposes; and if they were not to be permitted to discuss the state of the law, how could they discharge that part of their duty? As to the Reform Act, if it were to be allowed to go to the country in its present state, so far from there being any tribunal for interpreting its meaning hereafter, he did not believe there would be Members enough to form even one Election Committee. He had risen to mention a report he had heard very much to the credit of the right hon. Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Stanley), namely, that he had summoned all the practising barristers to Dublin to consult upon the Bill, and come to some understanding upon its provisions, in order that there might be but one interpretation of it extant in the elections. He hoped this report was true, for it was a most discreet and useful step.
Colonel Torrenssaid, that from his information it did not appear that there would be those obstructions to the voters, which were anticipated from the defective wording of the Bill.
Mr. Harveydid not think it just to require any pledge from Government respecting the re-assembling of Parliament, until they had seen the Returns from different parts of the country. If they then found that the constituency generally was much narrowed, Parliament, no doubt, ought to
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be called upon to apply a remedy. But if the inconvenience existed in one or two places, the mere result of accident, then he thought it would be unreasonable to put hon. Members to so much inconvenience.
Petition ordered to be printed.

PUNISHMENT OF BLASPHEMERS.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition, signed by 200 inhabitants of the city of London, expressive of the "disgust and indignation" which they felt at the sentence passed upon two individuals, Mr. Twort and Mr. Ward, for the declaration of their religious opinions, and praying that the House would interfere to obtain their liberation from prison. He (Mr. Hunt) had always understood that the Attorney General was opposed to prosecutions and punishments for opinion merely, and he was therefore the more surprised at the sentence.
Mr. Humeexpressed his thorough disgust at the daily prosecutions going on against men for their opinions. Every man in this country had civil rights, and the right to express his opinion was one of his rights. To give a man eighteen months' imprisonment for such an offence was an utter disgrace to any civilized country. He held religious liberty to be a civil right, and a man was therefore free to adopt whatever religious opinions he might choose. When the Whigs were out of office they were as much opposed as any one to such prosecutions. Why, then, did they tolerate and encourage them now? They complained of the conduct of the despots of Frankfort; but if such a line of conduct were permitted in this country, they would themselves de-I serve to be enrolled amongst the foreign despots. He could imagine nothing more atrocious than the punishment of these men.
The Attorney Generalcomplained that the hon. member for Middlesex did not know the nature of the offence for which these men had been punished. He assumed that it was merely fur giving utterance to blasphemous opinions.
Mr. Hume: It is so in the Petition.
The Attorney General: It was not upon what the convicted individuals alleged, that the hon. Member was entitled to turn round and condemn those who had been instrumental in bringing about the conviction. The fact was, that the individuals in question had been guilty of a gross assault upon a respectable divine, upon the morning of the day appointed for a general fast; and, further, of disturbing a congregation. It

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was not, therefore, as assumed by the hon. member for Preston, for a mere difference of opinion, that these men had been punished.
Mr. Humesaid, he did not mean to palliate an assault; but even assaults ought to be kept on their proper footing as to punishment, and surely, to justify eighteen months' imprisonment, the assault should have been of a very serious nature.
Mr. Huntsaid, he understood that the Clergyman to whom the hon. and learned Gentleman referred had disgraced himself, and commenced the disturbance by attempting to pull down the placards carried by the men, and in the course of the struggle, he got a blow or a scratch. The petition was signed by 200 individuals, and was entitled to the attention of the House.
Mr. Percevalcould not sit in that House and hear any man defend such conduct as these convicted men had been guilty of, without raising his voice to denounce such defenders of iniquity and blasphemy. It was disgraceful to any man calling himself a Christian to rise in that assembly as the avowed protector of the foulest, the grossest, the most wicked and filthy attacks upon Christianity. He said it was disgraceful (turning to Mr. Hunt who sat immediately behind him) to that House, and to the character of the community, that men could be found there the willing instruments of blasphemers, the conduit-pipes of the vilest blasphemy.
Mr. Huntrose to order. He begged to know from the Chair whether it was consistent with the Orders of that House that his conduct was to be stigmatized as "disgraceful" because he had presented a petition.
The Speakersaid, he was sure the hon. Member (Mr. Perceval) could not have intended to apply such language to any Member of the House.
Mr. Percevalexplained. What he had meant to say was, that when a man was brought before the laws of his country, and made amenable to punishment for the dreadful offence of blaspheming his God and his Saviour, any Member of that House who reverenced his God, and if he did not reverence him his conduct was the more disgraceful, was bound to inquire into the circumstances of the case before he attacked the Government and the law in favour of such a man—before he made himself the vehicle of such improper and unjust attacks. If a man did not do that, but came forward voluntarily, and
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without inquiry, the self-elected defender of foul, beastly, and horrible blasphemies, then he said his conduct as a man and a Christian was disgraceful. He was not alluding to any particular individual, but laying down a rule for the general guidance of the Members of that House. Before all it was their duty to reverence God; and they who did not do so would be overtaken in their course of sin. But let the Government of the country look to those irreverent and blasphemous publications which were abroad, sapping the morals and principles of society, depraving the minds of the multitude; and working mischief with a horrible tide, which was overbearing all the barriers of decency and religion. These things were working in an, under-current, not apparent to that House, not visible on the surface, not likely to come to the ears of those who did not diligently seek to know them, but as surely sapping and undermining the foundation of—
Mr. Huntrose, and, interrupting the hon. Member in the middle of his sentence, moved, that the House be counted.
House counted out.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Civil List Payments; Russian-Dutch Loan; Stage Coach Duties; Greek Convention; Party Processions (Ireland); Forgery; Juries (India).
Petitions presented. By the Earl of Rosslyn, from Servants of the East India Company, against the Juries (India) Bill.

PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND).
Viscount Melbournemoved the Order of the Day, for the third Reading of the Party Processions' (Ireland) Bill.
The Duke of Wellingtonmoved the insertion of the words "and other" after the word "religious," and before the words "differences and distinctions," wherever those words occur in the Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
Bill read a third time and passed.

WEST INDIES RELIEF.
Viscount Goderichmoved the third Reading of the West India Colonies Relief.
The Duke of Wellingtonasked the noble Lord, whether it was intended that the grant to the islands of Demerara, Barbadoes, Essequibo, and Berbice, should terminate with the Session, or should be continued by an annual bill.
Viscount Goderichsaid, that the grant had been given for one year only in the first instance. The Government had thought it their duty to apply for means to give that relief under these circumstances. His Majesty had authority over these islands which he did not possess over some of the other colonies, which had domestic legislatures; and in the exercise of that authority
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certain Orders in Council had been issued, restricting the labour of the slaves, and regulating in particular, the treatment of that part of the population. By those regulations, additional cost was thrown upon production: and therefore, especially as those islands were suffering from other causes in common with the rest of the West Indies, and were therefore the less able to meet any additional cost on produce at present, it was thought advisable to give them some assistance. But as the grant was intended, as he had said, to meet the additional cost which it was supposed the Orders in Council would cause, if the Orders were not adopted, the occasion of the grant would not exist.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that all he wished to know was, whether the grant would be continued annually so long as the Orders in Council continued to be enforced.
Viscount Goderichreplied, that the Government could not pledge itself upon the subject. Whether the grant should be continued or not would depend upon the effect which the operation of the Orders in Council might have upon the cost of production. The Government, therefore, could come to no opinion further than respected the present year.
Read a third time and passed.

CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.
Earl Greymoved the Order of the Day, for the third Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, and that the Bill be read a third time.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that, although he was aware of the inconvenience to which he might put their Lordships by calling their attention at this stage of the Bill to a subject which was closely connected with it, and although he was sorry that he had not been able to do so earlier in the Session, yet, late as it was, and inconvenient as it might be to their Lordships, he could not, considering the situation in which he had stood in connexion with the Councils of his Majesty, reconcile it to his sense of duty to allow their Lordships to separate without making some comments and remarks on the extraordinary state in which the finances of the country at present were. The present was the only opportunity upon which he could with propriety make any observations on the subject; and, therefore, he was convinced that their Lordships would allow him briefly to occupy their time. When he addressed their Lordships upon a former occasion upon this subject, he had the misfortune to differ in opinion with the

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noble Earl, at the head of his Majesty's Government, and from his Majesty's Chancellor of the Exchequer in another place. At that period, he stated the income of the country to be, 47,250,000 l.; and the expenditure 47,239,000 l., leaving a surplus of 11,000 l. only. This was the whole surplus applicable to any exigency which might arise, as stated by him in October last. In the first Budget of 1831, in February, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated the revenue to be 47,250,000 l., and estimated the charge, which had not then been voted, at 46,850,000 l., leaving an apparent surplus of 300,000 l. In the second Budget, for they had two Budgets that year, the noble Earl, and his noble colleague in the other House, estimated the revenue at 47,250,000 l., and the expenditure at no more than 46,756,000 l. They founded their estimate of the expenditure for the whole year, not upon the only legitimate ground, the Parliamentary Estimates, but upon the actual expenditure in the quarters which had already elapsed, and accordingly they got upon paper a surplus of 493,000 l., taking the average payments to be the same for the quarters which were to follow as for those which had gone by. But the result, unfortunately, more than realized his anticipations. It turned out that there was not a surplus, either of 493,000 l., or of 300,000 l., or of 11,000 l., but a very considerable deficiency. In three months after the noble Earl had indulged, in that House, the most flattering expectations, they were proved to the whole country to have been utterly unfunded. In January, 1832, the revenue received in the year, from January 1831, was 46,424,000 l., and the actual charge in the same period was 47,123,000 l., leaving a deficiency in the year ending in January 1832, of 699,000 l. The deficiency of revenue as compared with the estimate made in October, was 825,556 l. The excess of charge beyond the estimate of October, was 493,479 l. So that the state of affairs in January was worse than it had been estimated in October by the sum of 1,319,035 l. In such a state of things it was manifestly impossible that the public could have any confidence in the condition of the finances. On the 5th of April, 1832, it appeared by the public accounts, that the revenue from the 5th of April, 1831, had produced 46,618,015 l. The actual charge in this year, from April to April, was 47,858,488 l. The revenue at this period was worse than the produce of the year from January to
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January, by 194,000 l.; and comparing it with the estimate of October, it was less by 510,000 l., while the charge was greater than the same estimate by 730,000 l. The actual deficiency of revenue to meet the actual charge at this period, was then shown to be 1,240,000 l. In July again they had the statement of the year's accounts from July 183 to July 1832. The revenue at this period was 46,296,521 l., and the actual charge 47,559,078 l. The deficiency at this period was, therefore, 1,262,557 l. Having stated the condition of the finances at the various periods which he had mentioned, he at length came to the Budget of 1832. According to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the revenue of the present year was calculated at 46,470,000 l., and the estimated charge was 45,696,000 l., leaving a surplus, according to the statement, of 773,000 l. It was fair to state that this surplus did appear upon the Estimates, and was not calculated upon the same erroneous principles as before. The Estimates were less for the year 1832 than for the year 1831, by the sum of 2,162,000 l. Then with respect to this reduction, and to the comparison of the two years, as to their income and expenditure, he had some observations to make. The abolition of the coast blockade, heretofore provided for in the Navy Estimates, occasioned a reduction of 160,000 l., but this must necessarily be attended by some expense to the Board of Customs for the means of preventing smuggling; and, as for this new expense, which could scarcely fall short of 80,000 l., no provision had been made, he must consider the reductions fallacious to the extent, on this account, of 80,000 l. There was likewise another omission in the Miscellaneous Estimates—that of the expense of building a new Custom House at Liverpool, which would be 50,000 l., and which would be provided for out of the revenue of the Customs. Thus, in these two items alone, the apparent reduction was fallacious to the extent of 130,000 l. He likewise considered that the Government had fallen into a great miscalculation as to the probable produce of the wine duties. It appeared with respect to the French wines, that, although there had been a great reduction of the duty, there had also been a great reduction of consumption. Nor was this all. There had been a still greater reduction of the consumption of other descriptions of wines, in consequence of the duty having been decreased. In the last year there was a comparative decrease

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under this head, of 154,000 l. There could be no doubt but that this was the first instance of any Administration in this country leaving themselves without any provision for contingencies, or any unusual efforts which might become necessary, except that of drawing in advance upon the revenue of the succeeding quarter. No provision was made for any extraordinary emergency, but that of anticipating the growing produce of the quarter. He could not think, looking to the present posture of the Government, that this was a situation in which the country ought to be placed. He must give the noble Earl at the head of the Government credit for the intention to cover the essential expenditure of the year. But the fact was, that many of the reductions were applicable to the army and other essential services of the country, which, although not estimated this year, must be provided for in future years. One of the objects in which a saving had been effected was the training of the militia. The saving under this head was 1,90,000 l., and could not recur in future years. Another saving was in the freight of transports and the provision of troops, when it was necessary, to remove them from one part of the world to another. Circumstances might admit of this in the present year, because there were no garrisons to relieve, but it was not possible that it could occur in every future year. This saving, therefore, was applicable to this year only, and it was to the extent of 45,000 l. Another item of reduction was in the purchase of timber for the navy, which amounted to the very considerable sum of 400,000 l. It was evident that the magazines of this country must be kept up, and all that was really done by this apparent saving was to throw the burthen to this extent upon future years. With a view to secure an adequate supply, and to the proper seasoning of stores, and with a view to the probability that it might become necessary for his Majesty's service to make some great exertion, it was impossible that less than double the amount of the estimate of this year would suffice. He thought, therefore, that the reductions were not only temporary, but effected at the sacrifice of an important part of his Majesty's service. He contended that it was the duty of the Government to look to other objects of more importance than the mere balance of income and expenditure. It was necessary to look to what was likely or possible to happen in the circumstances of this country. Would any man say that the Government, with
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respect to its finances, was left in the situation in which it ought to be? The finances of the country were unprovided for, although his Majesty's Ministers knew that the Session would be of a Reformed Parliament, and no man could tell what the decision of such a Parliament might be on any question; more especially on a question of finance. It was the duty of the Ministers in all circumstances, at the same time that they avoided every unnecessary expenditure, to place the finances in a state in which they might be adequate to any emergency which might arise. In the present state of the foreign relations of the country, it was possible that an occasion might arrive, in which his Majesty might be compelled to make an extraordinary exertion, and to call forth all the resources of the empire. But in consequence of the state in which the finances of the country were now placed, his Majesty would, in such a case as he had supposed, be put to the greatest difficulty in the management of his financial resources, so long as the necessity for exertion might continue. Let his Majesty's Ministers look to the condition of Ireland. Could any man conjecture how embarrassing the affairs of that country might become? Let them look to his Majesty's foreign relations—let them look particularly to the Peninsula. They would sec that, in every one of these particulars, his Majesty might, much sooner than any of their Lordships perhaps expected, be called on to make exertions for which all the resources of the empire would be necessary. The present, therefore, was not a time to curtail the finances. He could not help assuring their Lordships that, in his opinion, the country was in a state which demanded their most serious attention. It was not his intention, at that period of the Session, to enter into any discussion which could give rise to an angry debate; and, although he had his own opinion on the subject to which he was about to advert, he would admit that, no doubt, his Majesty's Ministers had done what they believed to be their duty, when they allowed that to proceed which was now going on in Portugal. For his part, he thought it was their duty to prevent the collision of the two opinions which distracted every part of Europe. It was more especially their duty to prevent that collision in a country the interests of which were so nearly connected with those of England as Portugal. But he would admit, that his Majesty's Ministers thought that they were preventing the collision by what

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they had done. Let them look, however, to that country, and see what was doing there. Although a prince (Don Pedro) had invaded that country under the most favourable circumstances, and with a considerable force, still he had made no acquisitions beyond the town in which he landed. Neither armies, nor provinces, nor even a single town, as far as he had heard, or even so much as one man, had gone over to Don Pedro. His Majesty's Ministers might suppose that the prince's adversary was a usurper, and that his Government was so tyrannical and unjust, that the people were desirous to get rid of him; but, whatever the Ministers might suppose, he was sure that they would best consult the interest of England by putting an end to the conflict of opinions in Portugal. What was the actual state of things at present in that country? The military movements had been all in favour of the invader, and yet he had been unable to advance further than the town in which he landed. That did not show that the country was favourable to the enterprise; and, therefore, he (the Duke of Wellington) thought it would be right to put a stop to the revolutionary war. It was quite obvious, from the present state of things, that the invader could not succeed otherwise than by force of arms. Don Pedro had under his direction a band of brave and honourable and enterprising men, and as good soldiers as any in the world. He might say that he knew them to be as he described. That army was formed out of numbers of military adventurers: and plenty of them there were to be found in every part of the world; but, be the composition of Don Pedro's army what it might, they must hold Portugal against the people. It was, then, by means of these brave men, but, at the same time, military adventurers, that the prince was to succeed. By means of the aid of these persons he was to take possession of Portugal, contrary to the wishes of the people. With all his advantages, however, the invader had as yet made no advance; and, from that fact, he believed that Don Pedro could never govern Portugal without the continuance of foreign military support. And was it to be supposed, that such a military force would not spread revolutionary warfare into Spain? Perhaps there were associations in his mind, which made him feel more strongly on this subject than other men. Certainly he could not look without anxiety to the state of things which had lasted so long in Portugal, and to the
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prospects arising from that slate, especially to this country, which might find itself called on to interfere in the warfare. When he looked to these things, he could not help pressing upon his Majesty's Government to consider well the state of their financial resources. He had stated, that he should endeavour to avoid anything that could give rise to angry feelings; but he could not refrain from adverting to the position in which the British fleet stood at present in that part of the world; for it was a subject of the greatest anxiety to all those who regarded the honour of this country, and who felt that the fleet was placed there in a very doubtful neutrality, if not of actual hostility. The fleet was placed there for the purpose of protecting his Majesty's subjects in the first instance; and, in the second, to prevent other persons from interfering in the war. Now, on all former occasions, when this country was placed in a similar condition in respect to Portugal, it had been usual to take measures to enable British subjects to quit the country, if they thought proper, when it was likely to be the seat of war, and if they did not choose to avail themselves of the proposed security, they were told, that they must incur all the risks arising out of the disturbed state of the country. In the present case, however, the fleet was left there for the protection of those who chose to stay. At the head of that fleet was an Admiral, in whom he (the Duke of Wellington) could say the Government might safely place every confidence, as no man would discharge with more propriety the arduous duties of the station in which he was placed. Novi, the situation of an Englishman resident in Portugal was this:—if he felt himself aggrieved by any of the authorities, and could not obtain redress, he could call upon his Conservador; and, if that person could not obtain redress for him, then the Admiral could only do so by an act of hostility. Was it possible, then, that the fleet should not be looked upon as an enemy by the Portuguese government? Was it possible, then, that the presence of the fleet should not have an effect upon the war, prejudicial to the actual government? But what was more—there was a blockade of the port of Lisbon, by the fleet of the invader, and also by the British fleet; and the fleet of Don Pedro, with British colours flying, had pursued and taken a Portuguese vessel. What was the situation of the British Admiral when that was done? Was he not bound to protect the fleet which carried British

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colours in his presence, or chastise those who, without any such right, dared to wage war under them in his presence? And how was that Admiral placed, by these circumstances, in respect to the government of Portugal? Was he any longer neutral? There was another point to which he wished to bring the attention of the House. There was at present, on a diplomatic mission to Portugal, an English nobleman, having the rank of a Brigadier-general in Portugal. Now, what were the functions of that officer? To command any brigade to which he might be ordered. See, then, the consequence of our sending to Portugal, as the representative of the British Government, an officer who was a Brigadier-general in that country. He was liable to be appointed to the command of a Portuguese brigade. But he was the representative of this Government, and he was, moreover, intrusted with the question of peace or war, in the event of a particular contingency. Never before had there been an instance of an officer being sent, intrusted with the prerogative of the Crown on the great question of peace or war, to the Government under which he held such a commission, and at a time when a revolutionary war was going on. He was quite sure that this nobleman would discharge the duties of his important trust faithfully, and with the greatest discretion, and neither he nor the Admiral would involve the country in an unnecessary war. But he would say, that such was not the condition in which this country ought to stand with Portugal in reference to war; and especially to such a war as would arise—if there should be any. He believed that the topics to which he had adverted were closely connected with the question before the House, which was one of finance; and he had thought it his duty to bring them, on that occasion, under the consideration of the House.
Earl Greysaid, that he had not expected that the noble Duke would have availed himself of the present occasion, the last stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill, in which it was not usual to take any discussion, and almost at the last hour of the Session, to raise an extensive discussion on the financial state, and on the foreign policy, of the country. He must say, that the course pursued by the noble Duke was attended with some inconvenience. It was inconvenient on this particular occasion, upon which it was not expected to arise; and was inconvenient generally, because, as the statement of his noble friend (the
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Chancellor of the Exchequer) had given general satisfaction in the other House, and had been but little excepted to by those who were the most disposed to canvass his arrangement—it was not expected to be discussed anew. He (Earl Grey) had discharged the details of the question from his mind, and had put aside the papers which were necessary to enable him to meet the present discussion. To prepare himself he had had but the last two days of the Session, during which he had a great many other things to think of, which could not be postponed. He came, therefore, with some disadvantage to the discussion—as one who, moreover, was not very conversant with financial statements, and who had to contend with those who placed all the details of the calculation in points of comparison, on which he (Earl Grey) had not before examined them. Certainly, too, he had not expected that a long discussion upon foreign affairs would have been mixed up with the question upon the Bill. The noble Duke had argued, that the finances of the country were embarrassed, and that an occasion might shortly arise for great financial exertion, and that, consequently, his Majesty might be placed in circumstances of the greatest difficulty. The noble Duke had complained that there was a great deficiency in the revenue, as compared with the expenditure for the current year; and he had referred to what occurred in the List year, to show that the calculations and expectations of his Majesty's Ministers had failed then, and were not to be expected to succeed in this year. He admitted, that he had last year anticipated a surplus of between 300,000 l. and 400,000 l., and in that expectation he had been disappointed. He lamented, as much as the noble Duke could lament, that there did now exist a large deficiency. In the anxiety of the Government to relieve the industrious classes, they had taken off' taxes which were supposed to press heavily on those least able to bear them, and they had hoped that the revenue would derive increase from other sources, which would make up for the reductions. Now the cause of the disappointment was, that they had calculated upon meeting with no opposition respecting the taxes which they proposed to substitute for those that were reduced; and every one who remembered what took place respecting the timber duties would see that they had reason to expect that they would not have been opposed. When they found the deficiency, of which

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the noble Duke had said so much, they had to consider the means by which it could be made up. He would go the whole length with the noble Duke, in admitting that it was not enough to secure a bare surplus, much less to be exposed to the possibility of a deficiency. He agreed with the noble Duke, that if an occasion of great exertion should occur, it ought not to be met by the imposition of new taxes, but that a surplus should previously have been secured to provide for the emergency. When the deficiency was found, then his Majesty's Ministers had to meet it in one of two ways—to impose new taxes, or to reduce the expenditure. Having given the alternative their best consideration, they thought it was their duty to reduce the expenditure, and in this way overcome the difficulty. In that course they were encouraged by circumstances which had arisen, giving reason to hope that there would be, in the revenue itself, an improvement to compensate for the deficiency, without having recourse to the imposition of new burthens upon the country. Reductions were accordingly effected to the amount mentioned by the noble Duke, namely, upwards of 2,000,000 l., encouraged as Ministers were by the expectation that the revenue would increase in other ways. That reduction the noble Duke thought would not prove so satisfactory to the people as some imagined. He (Earl Grey) believed the country was satisfied with it. The general result of the expenditure for the year—without at that moment going into details—was, 46,470,000 l., whilst the revenue only amounted to 45,660,000 l., thus leaving a deficiency on the year of 814,000 l. Now, if that sum of 814,000 l. were deducted from the general deficiency of the two years united, which amounted to 1,240,400 l., it would leave 426,400 l. In order to supply this, which was the best course to adopt, to have recourse to taxation, or diminish the expenditure? He thought that there could be but one answer to that question. It had been generally allowed, in the view which his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken in his financial statement, even by those who were opposed to his propositions, or who were not disposed to look upon them favourably, that he had not been sanguine. It had been generally admitted, that he had rather underrated than overrated the probable effects which would flow from the course recommended. All admitted that his noble friend had acted with great candour. He concealed nothing, but brought
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forward the whole financial question fairly, in order that it might be seen what the expectations were with respect to the revenue, and the grounds upon which these expectations were founded. In that statement his noble friend had calculated the loss to the revenue on corn as likely to amount to, 500,000 l., for the prospect there was of an abundant harvest would render it probable that no importation would take place, and consequently there would be no duty paid. He rejoiced, in common with every one, at the prospect which now existed of a most abundant harvest; he was, however, of opinion that some importation would take place, notwithstanding. But supposing there should be no importation of corn because of the harvest being so abundant, there would, necessarily, be an increase of the comforts of the people, and other articles would be consumed, by which the revenue would he increased. In making this estimate, his noble friend could not be accused of erring. Supposing it should turn out that he was wrong in that calculation—on the sanguine side, and thus making the revenue appear larger than it would otherwise be—from the improvement which had taken place in the revenue, he thought that, by the end of the year, nearly the whole of the present deficiency would be made up. He had the satisfaction of stating to the House, and he was sure it would be so received by their Lordships, that there was a general increase in the revenue now, and the deficiency which had arisen from particular circumstances, to which he would advert presently, was diminished, and would continue to diminish. He had in his hand an account of the revenue of the last two years, from which it appeared that the decrease was considerable in the last year compared with the former period. In 1831, the amount of the revenue was 48,573,049 l., and the revenue of 1832, was 46,189,574 l., being a decrease of 2,383,475 l. Now, by the last half-year's account, ending 5th July, 1832, the state of the revenue was 21,084,856 l; and for the half-year ending July 5th, 1831, the revenue was 21,188,929 l., so that there was only a difference between those two periods of 104,073 l., whilst the difference between the whole year amounted to the sum he had stated, namely, 2,383,475 l. He, therefore, did feel justified in what he had asserted, as to the improvement in the revenue, and he looked with confidence to that view being realised. He thought that their Lordships would also concur with him

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in that opinion. He did not take that gloomy view of the state of the country which many persons did. He believed that the country had means in it, which would overcome all the difficulties which had been pressing upon it; but, at the same time, if the deficiency of the revenue should continue, it would be their Lordships' duty to provide for it. Their Lordships were well aware that, within the last three years, and that period embraced a portion of the administration of the noble Duke, a large yearly deduction in taxes had been made. Deduction in taxation, to the extent of 4,780,000 l. had been carried into execution, which had furnished relief to the country. He looked with confidence to the deficiency being got over in another year, without the imposition of any fresh burthens. Feeling, however, as he did, that it was necessary to support the power of the country, and to provide against every contingency, and being convinced that the people were of the same opinion, he would admit, that if his Majesty's Ministers should be disappointed of their just expectations, then it would be necessary to provide for the deficiency by applying to some means of increasing the revenue. But he could not take the desponding view of the finances of the country which the noble Duke had taken; nor could he think with him, that we were not in a situation to make any exertion which the honour of the nation might require. In the last year, the prevalence of a pestilential disease had had a most serious effect upon the trade and commerce of the country. The unsettled state of Europe, also, had contributed much to the interruption of foreign trade; and we had not yet recovered from the agitation which the delay and uncertainty of the Reform Bill had occasioned; an uncertainty by which all the commercial transactions of the country had been, to a great extent, interrupted and deranged. All those impediments to prosperity were now in a fair way of removal, and he had, consequently, the best hopes for the revenue of the current year. There was, however, a deficiency at present, and the question was, what were the best means of making up for it? Great reductions had taken place in every department of the public service. Some of those, the noble Duke contended, were only temporary. He had said, for instance, that the suspension of the training of the militia had afforded no real saving—that the training must be resumed—and that an expense would be thereby occasioned, which would more than
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counterbalance the saving at first apparently effected. But that would depend altogether upon circumstances; and he (Earl Grey) trusted, that the apprehensions of the noble Duke, on that score, were groundless. He (the Duke of Wellington) had also argued, that the diminution of expenditure in the transport of troops for the present year would only throw the expense of two years upon the next. But he was not aware that the usual relief of troops upon the various stations had not taken place, with the single exception of the 9th regiment, which was continued in Ireland on account of circumstances which had occurred there, to render necessary the detention of that regiment beyond the period at which it ought to have been removed. The saving in the navy amounted to 9,94,300 l. The noble Duke Considered that saving, also, to be not only temporary, but injudicious. But the fact was, that in every article there was, at present, a considerable increase of quantity in the naval stores, as compared with what was upon hands at any corresponding period of the noble Duke's Administration. There was, therefore, no reason for supposing, that the saving of this year would fall upon the next. However, to return to the subject, a deficiency was found, and to meet it, the Government had determined upon a considerable reduction; and in the three great heads of expenditure, namely, army, navy, and ordnance departments, considerable reductions had been made. The expense of the army, for 1831, was 7,551,024 l.; that of the present year, the estimate was 7,087,682 l., being a decrease of 463,342 l. This, the noble Duke had stated, was only a temporary or ephemeral saving, arising from the militia not having been called out for training, and that the expenditure must be increased in another year. That would, of course, depend upon circumstances, and he (Earl Grey) entertained hopes, that such a course would be unnecessary in the ensuing year. It had also been said, that part of this saving had arisen from the not providing and transporting troops for foreign service, and that this must necessarily be done in another year. Now, he was not aware, that the ordinary reliefs to troops on foreign service had this year been withheld, for, with the exception of the 9th regiment, which had been retained in Ireland under peculiar circumstances, he believed the reliefs had taken place, as usual. In the navy, also, a saving had been effected. The Navy Estimates for the last year had been 5,882,835 l., while those for

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the present year were 4,848,635 l., showing a saving of 934,200 l. The noble Duke had stated, that this saving had been effected, but would only be temporary, and was, in some degree, an inexpedient measure. The noble Duke had, also, alluded to the grant for the new Custom-house at Liverpool, and to a point connected with the abolition of the coast blockade. With regard to the two last points, he (Earl Grey) was not enabled distinctly to state the circumstances connected with them; but, with regard to the first point, namely, that the saving had been effected by a diminution of the stores, he was prepared to say, that there was in the dock-yards a considerable increase now upon the stock in December, 1830. A reduction had also been made in the Ordnance department, which, added to the reduction in the navy, made a reduction of 1,511,798 l. At the same time, he must also observe, that though, in addition to this, a reduction in the Army Estimates had been made, to the amount he had mentioned, yet there had been made an addition of 7,000 men to the numbers that were serving in that force at the time the noble Duke left office. In the miscellaneous service for the year 1832, there was also a saving of 991,000 l.; and in the three pension lists for England, Ireland, and Scotland, there was now a saving of 2,000 l. per annum, exclusive of about 6,000 l. per annum from cases that had fallen off; and, eventually, these pension lists, which had amounted to 140,000 l. per annum, would be reduced to 75,000 l. per annum, leaving an eventual saving of 65,000 l. per annum. He believed, therefore, there was no reason to apprehend what the noble Duke so much feared; and he felt assured that no inconvenience would arise from leaving a deficiency of 300,000 l. unprovided for. The prospects of the country gave every hope of an improvement in the revenue. Taking, as he had done, this most unfavourable view of the prospects as to the revenue, he confidently now left himself in the hands of their Lordships and the country. He thought it was not necessary for him to to make any further statement on the finances of the country, and he should have rejoiced if his task had here terminated. But, although inconvenient as it might be, and unprepared, as he was, from the limited notice which the noble Duke had given on Monday, compared with the subject upon which he had entered at such length in his speech, yet he could not allow those observations, which the noble Duke had urged, as
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to the policy adopted by Ministers respecting Portugal, to go entirely without answer. No one felt more than he did, the interest which this country had in the prosperity of Portugal. No one more than he desired that the differences which distracted that country should be speedily and satisfactorily terminated. But, in the first place, he should call upon their Lordships, in justice, to acquit the present Government of any share in bringing about the present state of things there. When the Ministers came into office, they found upon the throne of Portugal a prince, who had been characterized by the late Government as an usurper; and, in a speech of the late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, had been accused of things, perhaps, worse than usurpation. It was not in their time that he was allowed—even with the British army in the country—to usurp that sovereignty which, by the recognition of the English Government, was the right of another. That was the moment, in his humble judgment, when both justice and policy required the interference of Great Britain. In this state of things the late Government withdrew their Ambassador from Portugal, not having acknowledged Don Miguel, but, on the contrary, having repeatedly recognised the title of his niece. A noble Lord opposite seemed to dissent; but when the present Ministers came into office, they found several documents, in which Donna Maria was entitled "Her Most Faithful Majesty," by the late Secretary of State. When Ministers came into office, they found some negotiations going on respecting Don Miguel, and, on the fulfilment of certain conditions, it would seem that it was the intention of the Ministry of the noble Duke to recognise him, upon certain conditions.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas here understood to express his dissent to this statement. There were no conditions whatever stipulated.
Earl Grey,the condition he understood was, if any amnesty was granted. That was stated in the speech delivered from the Throne in November 2nd, 1830, in which he found this passage. "I have not yet accredited my Ambassador to the Court of Lisbon; but the Portuguese government having determined to perform a great act of justice and humanity by the grant of a general amnesty, I think that the time may shortly arrive when the interests of my subjects will demand a renewal of those relations which had so long existed between

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the two countries."* It was obvious, continued the noble Earl, from that paragraph in the King's Speech, that if the amnesty (lid not take place then, recognition would not follow. This he considered a condition, in the fair and usual meaning of that word. But the amnesty was not granted, and the prisons were crowded with victims of as cruel acts of tyranny as ever were committed. He regretted, as much as the noble Duke could, the civil war which now existed in Portugal; but, under all the circumstances of the case, neither sound policy nor necessity made it the duty of the Government to send an army to prevent Donna Maria, whom England had recognized, from taking possession of the throne, and displacing the prince whom the British Government had designated a usurper. As to the probable success of Don Pedro, he could not pretend to say but that the noble Duke was correct in his conjectures; for he could not pretend to as correct a judgment respecting the event of military movements. If the military means of the duke of Braganza were not sufficient—if the people were attached to the present Government—if the king de facto really had an army to repel the invasion, and to maintain himself upon the throne—there could not be a question as to the line of conduct which the British Government ought to pursue. Still, as he (Earl Grey) knew the system of terror which prevailed in Portugal under the present Government, he was not surprised that there had not been a greater manifestation than there had been in favour of Don Pedro. Under those circumstances, a more strict neutrality could not by possibility have been maintained than the present Government had invariably observed. The noble Duke had said, however, that their neutrality approached to actual hostility; and why? "They had sent ships into the Tagus to protect the property of the English residents in Lisbon; and when representations were made, that the continuance of the troops sent to Portugal by the late Government would be considered a declaration of war against the government de facto, those troops were withdrawn. But the treatment of British subjects which followed, rendered it necessary to increase the force in the Tagus. But the fleet had another object, besides the protection of British subjects, which was, to enforce the neutrality of other Powers. The British Government felt that it was
* Hansard, (third series') vol. i, p, 9,
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bound to be neutral, but to be neutral no longer than other Powers observed the same neutrality; and he would say, that if Spain had advanced an army to the assistance of Don Miguel, the neutrality of Great Britain would have been at an end. The noble Duke did no more than justice to the commander of the fleet in the commendations which he had bestowed on him. No man could have acted with more perfect discretion and propriety than the gallant Admiral since his appointment to that station. But he (Earl Grey) could not admit, that because Admiral Parker commanded a fleet in the Tagus for the protection of British subjects, and to prevent the interference of other Power's in the internal connexions of Portugal, he was therefore bound to the protection of any vessels which might improperly assume the British flag. Nothing had been done by the British fleet which could be construed into a departure from strict neutrality. But the noble Duke had found a still stronger objection to the appointment of an English nobleman as Envoy to the Portuguese government, he being a Brigadier-general in Portugal. Whatever technical objection the noble Duke, in the exorcise of his ingenuity and experience, might make to the appointment, he (Earl Grey) could sec nothing in it that could appear to be hostile to the Portuguese government. Lord William Russell had no military duty to perform in Portugal for the British Government. He was sent there to watch the passing events—not to take any part in them. He was in constant correspondence with the Government at home, and the most perfect understanding subsisted between him and the Spanish Ambassador. But the noble Duke complained that Lord William Russell was intrusted with the power of peace and war. He (Earl Grey) was not aware that his power was so extensive. He had been intrusted with but one power, with which the noble Duke himself had been at one time invested; and that was to do a certain thing under a certain contingency. But it appeared that the noble Duke apprehended serious consequences, from the fact that Admiral Sartorius and other officers of the fleet of Don Pedro had ventured to raise British colours, from which the noble Duke inferred that the honour of the British flag required the interference of Admiral Parker to protect those vessels from the ships of war of Don Miguel.
The Duke of Wellington: I did not say so.
Earl Grey: If the noble Duke did not

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say so, what did he say? There could be no apprehension that the British Admiral would be placed in such difficulty, or in any difficulty, by the improper conduct of the Terceira Admiral. It was quite true that some vessels under Admiral Sartorius did, on one occasion, hoist the British flag; but Admiral Parker sent word to the Commander of Don Pedro's fleet, that he would not permit any of those ships to make use of British colours. He had detained the House longer than he intended, upon a discussion into which he had been drawn unexpectedly, and at great inconvenience to himself. At another time he might be disposed to say more upon the subject, but in the present circumstances, he felt that it would be to overstep the strict line of his duty to go further into the subject. But thus much he must say, that on coming into office, his Majesty's Ministers found the state of Portugal and the relations of Great Britain with that country to be such, that on the one hand they could not pledge themselves to support the princess whose rights their predecessors had acknowledged, and on the other hand, they could do nothing that might cause the enterprise of her friends to miscarry.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that after what had fallen from the noble Earl opposite, he could not refrain from making a few observations in reply. He could not but take notice of the haste with which the Bill had been hurried through the House, and that was the reason why he had not been able to give a longer notice of his intention to introduce this discussion. This Bill had been read only a first time on Friday last, and had not given him time for delay. He did not think that he had introduced this subject irregularly, because, as it seemed to him, the finances of the country were most properly discussed in a debate on a Bill of this kind. The noble Earl had himself thought soon a former occasion, and had introduced a discussion not only on the public finances, but on other topics not so closely connected with the Bill. The noble Earl had told them that the Government did not consider themselves called on to lay on fresh taxes in order to make up the present deficiency in the public revenue. He did not want the Government to lay on fresh taxes. All he had said was, that there was a deficiency of 1,263,000 l., and that that deficiency ought to be made up by some means, by the issue of Exchequer Bills, or by some other measure that would prevent any ill effect from the
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deficiency. A Finance Minister ought certainly to provide some remedy for such a deficiency. With respect to the question of Portugal, he had only wished to state his opinions in a manner which should create the least possible irritation, for he wished to create none, nor did he wish his observations to give rise to any untimely discussion. He was sorry that he had produced any irritation whatever in the mind of the noble Earl, and he certainly should not have made any further observations, but that the noble Earl had thrown reflections on the Government to which he had had the honour to belong: so that he trusted their Lordships would pardon him for detaining them a few moments, while he made some answer to those reflections. The noble Earl had stated, that that Government had been the cause of the usurpation of Don Miguel. Now that was a mistake in point of time; for it would be found that Don Miguel had been in Portugal when the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Goderich) was at the head of the Government. It was true that he (the Duke of Wellington) was in office, when Don Miguel assumed the government of Portugal. The noble Earl said, that at that time the British army was there, and might have prevented the usurpation. That was a mistake; the British army had been withdrawn before the usurpation. It was true that, before the army was withdrawn, Miguel had dissolved the chambers, and had given indications that it was not his intention to carry into effect the Constitution of the country; but he had given no indications of a resolution to usurp the Sovereign power; and when he did, what he did was done by a Decree of the Cortes; so that we should have had no right to interfere, even had we been able to do so; but he denied that we were able, for the army was withdrawn; and even if it had not been withdrawn, what was its force? Why it only amounted to 5,000 men, which would not have been enough to control Don Miguel. He denied, therefore, that the late Government had been the cause of the usurpation. When Don Miguel did usurp the sovereign authority, the late Government did all they could; they discontinued all diplomatic relations with Portugal, and ordered the Minister there to return home. The noble Earl had said that the state of things just mentioned existed when he came into office; and that the late Government had been willing to recognise Don Miguel provided he would

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grant a general amnesty. It would have been fair had the noble Earl stated what had previously occurred. The first thing the late Government did was to advise a reconciliation between the two branches of the House of Braganza, and they referred the matter to Brazil. The Emperor of Brazil was willing enough that they should go to war for him, but he would not go to war, because in fact, he had no resources of his own to do so. What, then, became their duty; Their duty was, if possible, to place Portugal in the society of nations if they could, and to endeavour to induce Don Miguel to do that which would have the effect of attaining that object. For that purpose they called on Don Miguel to reconcile the country to him by some act of grace towards those who had been connected with the former Government of the country. But it was not true that they had wanted to impose any condition with respect to that act of grace. The principle on which they acted was, to induce Don Miguel to give an act of amnesty without any condition whatever, because it was their wish not to interfere in any manner whatever with the government of Portugal; and it would have been interfering, had they made any condition. If Don Miguel had granted the amnesty, undoubtedly he would have been recognised; and when that paragraph was inserted in his Majesty's Speech on the subject, they had every reason to expect that that would be the case. From what had happened since, he had no hesitation in saying that he did wish to recognize that Prince, in order to remove Portugal from the unfortunate situation in which she stood—not because he was averse to the claim of right of the Princess, nor because he wished by any act of his to decide upon that claim; but because he wanted to establish a relation with the King de facto, so as to enable him to carry on the Government of the country with advantage to that country and to the security and friendship of the nations around her. If he had continued in office, he should, he believed, have effected that object; but it was not effected before he left office because the amnesty was not given. The noble Earl had said, that the way in which the present contest must end would be decided by the question whether the prince now on the throne, should be able to maintain himself. He did not see how any prince should be able to maintain himself against such a pressure as an invading army on his frontier and a fleet in the
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Tagus. The noble Earl had said that the late Government had left the affair of Portugal in a difficult and delicate state, and that the present Ministers had so found it when they came into office. That was true; but since then he, and his noble friends who acted with him, had often pressed the noble Earl to recognize Don Miguel. The emperor of Brazil had it not in his power to make war for the benefit of his daughter; he did not possess the means. She could then only hope to be restored by revolutionary means, which could be employed by those bands of adventurers that were paid by God knows whom, and that were ready to act at the desire of any one against a prince who had been placed on the throne by the Cortes, and who was maintained there, as he believed, by the good will and affection of his subjects. He had a great deal to say on the question of the neutrality of this Government, but he should not do so now, as he did not wish to create any additional irritation. He should only observe, that he could not concur with what the noble Earl had stated as to the neutrality that had been observed in this contest. He should not, however, enter into the question at the present moment. The noble Earl had misunderstood him, in supposing that he feared Admiral Parker would interfere for the assistance of Sartorius. He did not fear any such thing. What he complained of was, that Sartorius had used British colours, when engaged in the service of Don Pedro, blockading the Tagus. The noble Earl had removed the impression he had had on that subject, by stating the remonstrance made by Admiral Parker, and with that part of the explanation given by the noble Earl he was perfectly satisfied. All the imputations which he had feared could be cast upon the Government or the Admiral were gone; but it seemed that he was correct in the fact that British colours had been improperly hoisted. All that was probably owing to the unfortunate situation in which we were placed, in being there with a fleet at the time that war was carrying on. Another point on which he had been misunderstood was on the fact, that the transports and the steam-boats attached to Don Pedro's expedition were all English. He had put the case, that Don Miguel's ships should take one of these transports or steam-boats, which all bore English colours; and he wished to know whether the noble Earl considered it the duty of Admiral Parker to interpose to protect these ships?

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If the noble Earl so considered it, then he must ask whether that was not such an interference as put an end to all neutrality? And supposing that question to be answered in the affirmative, he would then put the question, whether such things would be done in a case where France or America were the belligerents? Another point to which he wished to call the noble Earl's attention was that of the blockade. The strangest thing of all was that this blockade was not a complete blockade, but that there was a daily communication between the Admiral outside and the General within. Why the moment that such a communication took place it vitiated the blockade; for the noble Earl must know, that if anybody violated the blockade there was an end of it altogether. Now he understood that it had been violated, and it appeared that American vessels had gone in. With regard to the appointment of brigadier-general Russell, he must say that he did not recollect any other instance of such an appointment where the person appointed held military rank in the country.
Earl Greyobserved that he was not aware he had shown any degree of irritation whatever. He certainly felt none; and the noble Duke, he believed, was mistaken in thinking that he had exhibited any. He himself had been mistaken by the noble Duke. He had not said that the late Government had been the cause of the usurpation; he had only said, that on entering office the present Government had found things in a very difficult state, and that in what they had done they had acted on the principles he had stated. He must, however, differ from the noble Duke as to the right possessed by this country to interfere at the time of the usurpation He thought that the Government of this country had, at that time, a right to interfere, after the invitation given to Don Miguel to come here—after his visit here—and after he had been sent over on an understanding of a most positive kind, that he should not usurp the power of his niece; his direct violation of that understanding did give to the Government of this country a right to interfere. It was another question whether such an interference was required by policy. The noble Duke then said that the British army was withdrawn at the time that the usurpation took place. But it was there when the conduct of Don Miguel had been such that the British Minister in Portugal thought himself called on to prevent the payment of that money
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which had been raised in this country as a loan, under the sanction of the British Government. Surely the "indications" of his intentions must have been pretty clear, when a British Minister felt compelled to resort to such a measure. He was glad to find that the noble Duke was perfectly satisfied with the explanation as to Admiral Parker's conduct upon the hoisting of the British flag by Admiral Sartorius. As to the statement that it was used by the rest of the vessels attached to Don Pedro's expedition, he believed that the noble Duke was mistaken on that point, for that statement was positively denied. Supposing, however, for the purpose of the question put by the noble Duke, that the statement was correct, his answer was this: if he knew anything of the principles of the law of nations, there could be no doubt on the matter. If British ships engaged in the service of any foreign prince, they forfeited all claim to the protection of this country. So that, if any of the sailors, soldiers, or others of the forces of Don Pedro, were captured while in his service, they would have no right to expect the power of this country to be employed for their protection. He stated this, as the principle of neutrality which this Government recognised—as that which had hitherto been adopted—and as that which he wished every one to be fully aware would be strictly observed.
Bill read a third time.

CHANCERY REFORM.
The Lord Chancellor.—I rise to redeem the promise which I made some time since, to state before the close of the present Session of Parliament, certain changes that I intend to propose, with the view of improving the administration of justice. By making this statement at the present moment, I afford the House and the public an opportunity of considering my propositions during the recess. Some of the changes which I propose to effect are comprised in the provisions of the Bill which I recently presented to this House, and therefore with respect to them it will be unnecessary for me to trouble your Lordships with a single observation. The plan which I have now to detail to your Lordships will, in the first place, provide for the abolition of the Report-office, by which a considerable saving will be effected. In the next place, it will provide for the regulation and change of the Registrar's-office, and in this department, also, a considerable saving will take place. My measure will then provide for changes

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in that great and most important department of the Court of Chancery,—I mean the Master's-office, to which I have on so many former occasions directed the attention of the House. I wish your Lordships to understand, that I consider the saving which will be effected by these changes, as the least important result which may be anticipated from them. It is right, however, that I should state what the amount of that saving will he. By the abolition of the Report-office, there will be a reduction of 4,000 l.; by the changes in the Registrar's-office, a saving of 14,000 l. will be effected; and by the alterations in the Master's-office, a reduction of 13,000 l. will be made, producing a total saving of 31,000 l. a year. This reduction, however, is, as I before observed, of infinitely less importance than the very great improvement which I humbly think will take place, more particularly in the Master's-office, by the changes in question. I have before stated, that these changes appear to me to be recommended on the grounds of expediency and necessity, and therefore I will not trouble your Lordships with a repetition of my observations upon that point, but will shortly state the nature of the changes themselves. By my plan, the worst branch of the system in the Master's department, which pays the Master by fees on work done, will be entirely abolished—I mean the copy money, which gives an interest to those persons belonging to the department to increase unduly,—and I may say, vexatiously—the expense of the suitors;—the expense being increased in an infinitely greater proportion than the sums actually raised by this bad mode of paying judicial persons. I also propose to abolish altogether that still worse system of abuse grafted on the former bad one,—I mean the payment of gratuities, the legality of which is only unquestionable because it has grown into a habit, which seems to have become permanent in that office. These changes will be important, considered with reference to economy, but incalculably more so when viewed as improvements in the administration of justice in this particular department. The Master will, in future, be paid by a salary instead of fees, by which a saving of at least 13,000 l. will be made. There are some other changes proposed to be made in this department, to which I will not now allude, as I do not wish to enter into much detail on the present occasion. I have, for reasons already given, abstained from dealing with the Six Clerks'
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department, and that of the Subpœna-office, by the present measure. Those departments, together with one or two other branches of the system, will be more conveniently introduced into one or two other measures, which will be rendered necessary by the act which has this day received the royal assent. In addition to what I have already stated, I shall feel it my duty to submit to Parliament an important proposition, which, I trust, will be carried into effect—I mean the constitution of a Court of Appeal in Chancery. I propose that this Court shall he constituted of the heads of the equity jurisdiction in this country. This will be a great improvement upon the present system, by which a single head of a branch of equity constitutes a court of appeal from another branch. In addition to the three heads of the equity Courts, I will place in the Court of Appeal the Chief Baron of the Court of Exchequer. I must mention, that the judge whose decision is appealed against, will, during the hearing of the case affecting his judgment, be excluded from this Court. The appeal to this Court will not be peremptory, but by way of election; for the suitor may either come to the High Court of Parliament, or to the Court of Appeal; but it is part of my plan, that from that Court an appeal shall not come to Parliament in the last resort, unless there should exist a diversity of opinion amongst the judges. I likewise mean to add a provision, which I cannot help feeling to be of eminent importance, not only to the administration of justice, but to the proceedings of this House in the appellate jurisdiction. I mean to propose that your Lordships shall have the power (there is some doubt whether you have it not at the present moment,—if you have, my proviso will have only a declaratory effect; and if not, it will confer the power upon you by positive enactment) of calling on the judges in equity, as you now call on the judges in law, for the purpose of helping your Lordships to come to a correct decision in cases of appeal. I am perfectly aware, that if this proposal were to stop here, though a great improvement would be made, it would be felt that enough would not' have been done, for it is my fixed and deliberate opinion, by which I am desirous of being understood, to abide firmly, in spite of objections to which I understand that opinion has been exposed from quarters which are entitled to great respect, that a very great change indeed is absolutely necessary in the constitution of

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the high office which I undeservedly have the honour to fill. I think that we cannot much longer remain in this country with that great—I will not say that gross and grievous, but only with that great, signal, and striking anomaly, that the highest Judge in civil matters in the country, is a Minister of the Crown, and is removable at the pleasure of the Crown,—that to him is intrusted, sitting alone, and without control, the disposal of property of an immense amount, and of rights and interests still more dear to the parties than any rights of property however important. The Lord Chancellor is all this while removable at the pleasure of the Crown, and is also, whether he will or not, a political, as well as a judicial character. I am sure that it is only necessary to glance at this subject, in order to fill your Lordships' minds with the ideas which at present press upon mine. I am morally certain that much longer this anomaly cannot last. What, then, it will be asked, is to be done with this high office and this great public functionary? I propose merely to separate the great branch of the Lord Chancellor's judicial functions—I mean that branch in which he sits and acts as a judge alone.—from his political functions, and from the functions which he discharges as Speaker of this House, and from his function of adviser of the Crown, and also from that other function incident to the Speakership of this House—I mean the judicial function—not exercised by the Lord Chancellor alone, but in conjunction with, and if need be, under the control and superintendence of coadjutors of a judicial character. If these functions be no longer united—if the Lord Chancellor shall sit in this House under precisely the same circumstances as the other Judges, and in the Privy Council also—when that important branch of jurisdiction shall be new-modeled by Parliament, as by an Act passed this Session it is pledged to be, so as to be rendered a useful and efficient court, the great anomaly of which I complain will be removed, without any increase of patronage, and without a single shilling of additional burthen to the public; for my opinion is, that the provision which has been made by Parliament for the sustentation of the office of Keeper of the Great Seal is abundantly sufficient, if well applied, to maintain in due dignity the Lord Chancellor, both as an officer of State, and as a Judge irre-moveable at the pleasure of the Crown. In effecting the changes which I have described
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to your Lordships, it may be necessary to new-model the salaries of some of the judicial officers of this country, and to diminish their amount in some cases; but I should not be doing justice to a most useful and learned Judge, and, above all, to the office which he fills, if I did not say, that the keeping up of the salary of the Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas, so much higher than that of the Master of the Rolls, is, in my opinion, only tolerated by Parliament, on the supposition that the Master of the Rolls, who ranks higher in his profession than the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, has the advantage of a residence, which the latter does not possess. I owe it to my learned friend, who fills the office of Master of the Rolls, to state that, with his usual disinterestedness, he has abandoned the advantage of his residence, by giving it up to the public service, for which sacrifice no compensation (most improperly as I think) has been granted, and consequently there exists an inequality between his remuneration and that of the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, who is his inferior in rank, and by no possibility his superior in usefulness. I have at present merely glanced at this subject, which will come before your Lordships more fully upon a future occasion. I may as well observe here, that I alone am answerable for the measures which I am now suggesting, and that I must not be understood to speak in the name of my colleagues. The opinions which I have expressed in this House, and more fully elsewhere, not only remain unaltered, but the experience which I have had in office has incalculably increased their force. Before I conclude my address, I trust that I may be allowed to allude to a change which has been introduced on one or two occasions, not in this House, nor by any persons conversant with the finance department of the Court of Chancery, respecting the Suitors' Fund. Some persons, from the greatest ignorance on this subject, have stated that this fund has been dealt with, not by the Court of Chancery, but by the Parliament in an unfair manner. It has been dealt with as unfairly by the one as by the other. The only difference between the two cases is, that it has not been dealt with by the Court at all, because the Court cannot touch it to the extent of a single penny; but a part of it has been dealt with by Parliament in a usual and a fair manner. What, by a vague and general expression, is called the Suitors' Fund is composed of several branches. I will shortly

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and succinctly explain the nature of this fund. The suitors in Chancery are entitled to immense sums of money, amounting to several millions, which are, from time to time, paid into the hands of the Accountant-general, and entered to the credit of their respective suits. At any time during the progress of a suit, application can be made by the parties, to have these sums, thus paid into the Accountant-general's hands, invested in the public funds. It is at their option to do this, and it is their own fault if they omit it. The parties who are entitled to the principal, are also entitled to the dividends, and these continue to be carried to their credit, and added to the principal. This great bulk of the Suitors' Fund Parliament can not touch. There is another fund—the floating balance of cash in the Accountant-general's hand, called the Dead Fund, and so called only because it yields no interest. This balance remains in the hands of the Accountant-general, because no application is made to have it invested in the funds, so as to yield interest. This fund has from time to time been dealt with by Parliament for instance. Parliament has, by act, occasionally ordered a part of it to be applied in a particular manner. Your lordships will perceive that this cash balance is precisely of the same nature as a banker's balance. The Court of Chancery is to a certain degree a banker. The Court always has sufficient money to pay the suitors the uttermost farthing on demand; but as no hanker is expected to keep the whole of his balance in his shop every day and every hour, for the chance of his customers calling for it, so neither is the Court of Chancery bound to keep the whole of the fund in question in its hands, for the chance of being called upon to pay it. The banker always finds funds for the payment of every draught presented to him, and the Court of Chancery finds funds to satisfy every demand which may be made upon it. Parliament has, in several instances, directed a portion of this unappropriated fund to be invested in the public securities, so as to bear interest, which interest has, from time to time, been applied to various purposes, and sometimes to the payment of salaries. To this interest no individual has any claim. There may, by possibility—by a bare possibility—be a claim to the principal, for this fund is composed of small sums, which once belonged to persons who have ceased to exist. But if all the dead were to rise up and claim their money, they could be paid to half a farthing out of the principal. Their
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claim, however, must be confined to the principal. Claim on the interest they have none, for it was their own fault, and their own fault alone, that they did not have the principal invested in the public funds. The interest forms a surplus fund called the Interest Fund, on which no party can ever have any claim. This fund has been, from time to time invested in the public securities, and the interest goes on accumulating, and the Interest Fund is also, in common parlance, called the Suitors' Fund. This fund now amounts to 600,000 l., for it has been swelled by the accumulation of the interest of interest of interest; and of this sum Parliament has an undoubted right to dispose of every farthing. The Dead Fund amounts to somewhat about 1,000,000 l. It is just possible, but it is a possibility which man's mind can hardly conceive, that the whole or the greater part of this sum may be claimed. The fund, however, remains sacred; Parliament has never appropriated more than the interest. I need not detain the House longer upon this point. It is only necessary to state thus much, in order to sweep away—I hope, for ever—the charge that Parliament had done any thing which it had not a right to do with the Suitors' Fund. As I am on the subject of Law Reforms, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to state the results which have occurred during the last six or seven months, from the very great improvements which your Lordships adopted in the law of this country, in relation to the administration of bankupts' effects. The measure to which I allude has established a balance in the way of saving, after the payment of all the salaries of all the officers, including ten Commissioners (four of whom are Judges of the Court of Review), registrars, and clerks, of 36,000 l. a year. The saving of expenses, however, is the least part of the benefit which has resulted from the change in question. The system has worked excellently in other respects. In one particular, and in one particular only, have I been disappointed, and, I may add, agreeably so. Your Lordships may recollect that I always contended that a smaller number of Commissioners than ten appointed by the new Act, would be sufficient to perform the business which had theretofore been done by seventy. As far as experience has hitherto gone, I think I am entitled to say that I was right in my opinion; and, though by struggling with my learned coadjutors, who assisted me in preparing the Bill, I was enabled to get

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the number of Commissioners and Judges reduced from fourteen to ten, I feel confident that we should not have furnished too little judicial assistance to the administration of affairs in bankruptcy, if we had carried the reduction still further. This remark does not apply to the Commissioners who, ordinarily and with so much advantage, work the commissions, but to the Court of Review, which, in my opinion, is considerably underworked, and I look forward with great satisfaction to the prospect of being enabled, at an early period of the next Session of Parliament, to throw on the learned and excellent persons who constitute that Court, and who are so well able to bear it, a very considerable, and, I hope, a very useful addition to their judicial labours by connecting their jurisdiction with that of the Insolvent Debtors' Court. By that arrangement, the duty imposed on these learned persons will not be too onerous, whilst the country will gain incalculably by having a greater number of circuits performed by the Insolvent Debtors' Court in all parts of the country, instead of, as at present, only four times during the year. I will take the liberty of stating one or two facts, to illustrate the working of the new system, which are so interesting in themselves, that I am sure I need not apologize to your Lordships for mentioning them. In two months, in 1831, the number of dividend meetings was 149 (this was the average number): yet, in the two months preceding the period when they came into operation—namely, November and December, 1831, on the prospect of a better mode of doing business, there were no less than 631 meetings of this description. Persons were all setting their houses in order, in the expectation that a more scrutinizing and efficient system would be adopted than that which has hitherto prevailed. I will show the House what effect has been produced by the exertions of the official assignees, whose appointment was a part of the system, the expediency of which was so much doubted by many persons, for whose wisdom and practical information I feel the greatest respect. A Commissioner having looked into the arrear accounts of an old assignee, found that there was a considerable sum due, and with the assistance, of an official assignee, he actually got funds into his possession to the amount of more than 51,355 l. This was done by one Commissioner only. I could state other facts, which must strike your Lordships with equal force, and satisfy you of
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the success which has attended the working of the new system. In the bankruptcy of James Rose, a decree of the Court of Chancery, in 1823, directed the sum of 5,213 l. to be paid to the assignees who never applied for it. The matter slept and was totally forgotten, until the official assignee discovered some trace of the transaction in the old assignee's books, and recovered the money. The system pursued by the accountants, under the old system, is illustrated by the fact which I will now mention to your Lordships: Robert Wilkinson, an accountant, became a bankrupt in April last. His accounts, on being investigated by an official assignee, show that he had assets of different bankrupts' estates in his hands at the time of his bankruptcy, amounting to 7,000 l. This item also appeared in his balance sheet—" profits including professional earnings as accountant and balance remaining, after declaring final dividends—38,000 l." I will detain your Lordships only by stating one or two other facts. A commission was issued against Hurst and Robinson in 1826. The official assignee, when appointed, found 11,012 l. 11 s. 10 d. lying dead in a banker's hands, and 2,191 l. in their hands, which he immediately recovered, and vested in Exchequer-bills, for the benefit of the creditors. A person, named Applegath, became a bankrupt in 1826, and the solicitor had absconded with his books, yet the official assignee succeeded in fixing the old assignees with various sums amounting to 5,000 l., which were totally overlooked upon several audits had before the old Commissioners. In 1817, Hadley became a bankrupt, and his father proved a debt of 7,000 l., and got himself appointed assignee. No assets were produced, nor any dividend paid. The father had died, but the official assignee detected so many of his frauds, that his executors consented to abandon his proof of the debt, and paid back the 7,000 l., by which means the creditors obtained 20 s. in the pound. This is a remarkable illustration of the benefits resulting from the new system. There are several other cases of this character, some equally strong and applicable, others, of course, somewhat less so, but all converging towards that point, which most strikingly illustrates the salutary tendency of the system of official assignees, and which most strikingly testifies the general satisfaction—I will not say universal, but the general satisfaction—which its workings have already afforded the trading interest of the city of London. Nor is

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the source of this satisfaction confined to the mere saving of money; the beneficial operation of the system extends to the saving of time. For example, more progress was made in the matter of Duckett's bankruptcy in four months, under the official assignees, than was made in eleven months, in the case of Fry and Co., and twelve months in the case of Marsh and Co.; and before twelve months, a final settlement will be effected in the case of Duckett, while four or five years have elapsed without a final settlement of the two others. I cannot avoid, now that I am touching upon the official assignees, to bear testimony to the cordial support and zealous co-operation with which gentlemen, connected with the city of London, have assisted my views—opposed as they were in some cases to their long standing prejudices—in others, to their interests, as bankers and merchants. When I mention the fact, that three or four of the most respectable bankers in London have assisted, not only In the choosing of eligible persons to act as official assignees, but have actually assisted in carrying the system into effect, at a personal sacrifice, in one instance, of not less than 2,000 l. a-year (the profit on balances and sums which otherwise would have been deposited in his hands), your Lordships will admit that too much praise cannot be bestowed upon those gentlemen for their patriotism and liberality, and honourable disregard of mere self-aggrandizement. I will conclude with repeating, that the zeal and ability, and consequent public advantage, of the bankers and merchants of London, and of the Judges and official assignees in the Bankruptey Courts, are justly entitled to my warmest commendations, und to the gratitude of the public. His Lordship concluded by laying on the Table, a bill for effecting certain reforms in the Court of Chancery, which was read a first time.