Sitting of 11 August 1832

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of Lord SAN-DON, an Account of the Exports of Cotton in all Shapes, during the six Months ending July 5th, 1832; and Copies of the Reports of the Commissioners of Emigration, since the last Session of Parliament.
Bills. Head a third time:—Chancery Sinecures; Stage Coach Duties; West-India Island Relief.
Petitions presented. By Mr. WARBURTON, from the Halifax Political Union, and by Mr. WALKER, from five Places in Ireland, against Tithes.—By Mr. SAOLER, from Spenny-thorne and Wensley,—in favour of the Employment of Agricultural Labourers Bill; from York, against the Ministerial Plan of Education (Ireland); from Shilton and Ansley, for an Inquiry into the Distressed State of the Ribbon Trade; and from Ainsworth, Chesterfield, and, Hulme, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill—By Mr. Walker, from New Ross, for an alteration of the Limits of that Borough.—By Mr. EWART, from three Places in Ireland, and by Mr. WALKER, from Wexford, against the Punishment of Death for Forgery.—By Mr. JERNINGHAM, from Knottingley, and Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, from Kingston-upon-Hull, for the better Observance of the Sabbath,—By Mr. SPRING RICE, from Antrim, against the Roman Catholic Marriages Bill.

STAGE COACHES BILL.
Mr. Spring Rice, in moving the third reading of the Stage Coach Bill, took the opportunity of informing his hon. friend, the member for Glasgow, that his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had consented to his suggestion, in totally exempting steam carriages from any toll on the ordinary roads. This was not much, but it would be found advantageous in promoting those ingenious and useful inventions.
Mr. Dixonexpressed his thanks to the noble Lord for his kindness in this respect.
Lord Althorphoped, that those machines would answer the expectations of those who had invented them.
Bill to be read a third time.

CASE OF WILLIAM POPJOY.
Mr. Duncombesaid, he had to present a Petition from an individual named William Popjoy, claiming some compensation for his services, in having been the means of saving the lives of forty-five individuals, who had been put on shore on a desert island in the South Seas, by the convicts who had piratically seized the brig Cyprus, which was

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conveying' them from Hobart Town to Macquarie Harbour, Van Dieman's Land. He also claimed compensation for having been employed as a witness against some of the pirates, who were convicted on his evidence: he likewise prayed that some arrears of pay, which were due to him while serving on board a man of war, should be given to him. The circumstances of the petitioner's case, the hon. Member observed, were such as entitled his prayer to the favourable consideration of Government. He had, when a boy, been put on board the Nimrod man of war; at the age of twelve he deserted from that ship, and soon afterwards was tried as an accessory in the stealing of a horse. The party who was the chief criminal, and who had induced the boy to take a part in the transaction, escaped, but Popjoy was found guilty, and sentenced to fourteen years' transportation, Of these he spent thirteen years in Hobart town. Before his time expired, the Cyprus brig was taken up to convey certain convicts from Hobart Town to Macquarie Harbour. Captain Harris of the brig, asked that Popjoy should be permitted to go with him, as he understood he was a good sailor. He consented to go. On the passage the convicts rose upon the crew and troops, in whose charge they were, and succeeded in getting possession of the vessel, which they took to some part of India, having first put Lieutenant Carew, the military officer in command, and some of the crew, and some women and children (in all forty-five persons), on shore On a small desert island. Popjoy, who had been solicited by the convicts to join them, and refused, was amongst the number so put on shore, and to his skill and intrepidity it was that the lives of the whole were preserved; but for the timely aid which he had been the means of procuring for them, they must have all perished for want of food. The island on which they landed was twenty miles distance from any place from which succour could be obtained. In order to reach the place from which relief could be expected, Popjoy constructed a small canoe of wicker-work, over which he fastened some pieces of tarpauling, smeared with boiled soap. In this frail vessel he and another put to sea, and though they had a distance of twenty miles to go in a tempestuous sea, they succeeded, though in hourly peril of their lives, in reaching their destination. As soon as they reached, assistance was
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afforded, and the remainder of the party were rescued from their distressing situation. These were circumstances which, he thought, established a fair claim on the part of this man to some remuneration from Government. Besides this, he had several testimonials from different individuals of his good conduct, and also of his activity and zeal on board the Cyprus. An instance of this kind he felt it necessary to state. On her way out of port the Cyprus was compelled by foul winds to bring up, and during the gale she parted from her anchors. Captain Harris, understanding that Popjoy was an expert diver, asked Lieutenant Carews permission to have his irons taken off, that he might assist in getting them up. Lieutenant Carew would allow them to be taken off one leg only, and with the two irons on one leg he was allowed to dive for the anchors (a fact that did not speak much for the humanity of the Captain or Lieutenant Carew), and by fastening a rope to each of them, they were recovered. Lieutenant Carew was afterwards tried for suffering the vessel to be taken, and sentenced to be cashiered, but was after wards restored upon the evidence of Popjoy. Taking the whole circumstances of the case, he thought there was quite enough in it to give a fair claim to this man for some compensation from Government.
Sir James Graham said, that the present case had been brought under the consideration of the Admiralty, and they, considering that Popjoy was not only a convict, but had a certain mark attached to his name in the books of the Admiralty which they could not but regard as coming within an order that it would be highly inexpedient for them to rescind; and feeling that, consistently with such an order, they could not give him any reward, they found it impossible to do otherwise than dismiss his application. They were quite ready to admit his gallant conduct; and they regretted that the regulations of the Admiralty would not allow of their giving him those substantial marks of their approbation which they wished. The present was a case which, though it could not be entertained by the Admiralty, was well worthy the consideration of the Treasury.
Petition laid on the Table.

ELECTORS OF WESTMINSTER.
Sir John Hothousesaid, he had then a Petition to present from a numerous body of his

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constituents, who held a meeting last night at the Crown and Anchor Tavern. He feared that his noble friend would think his worthy constituents very persevering in not being satisfied with the explanation of the operation of the Reform Bill, which his noble friend had already given. They contended, and, he thought, upon very strong grounds, that the effect of the Bill in its present form would be, to disfranchise a very large proportion of those who had hitherto had votes in the city of Westminster; it must therefore give rise to great and extensive discontent. Through several Parliaments he had had the honour of sitting as the Representative of a city which contained no fewer than 18,500 electors; should he be returned to the next Parliament it would only be as the Representative of the comparatively small number of 4,000. In the parish of St. John, out of 1,791 electors, not more than 554 had paid, which left 1,237 without votes. In St. Paul's, out of 549, only 298 had paid, and 251 had not. In St. Ann's, out of 1,403, only 535 had paid, leaving 868 without votes. In St. James's, out of 3,032, only 891 had paid, leaving 2,141. These four parishes yielded a total of no more than 2,268. In the parish of St. Margaret from 600 to 700 voters would be disfranchised, and he feared that the great parish of St. George, which included Pimlico and Chelsea, would be in a similar situation, as well as St. Clement Danes. The electors of Westminster, he was sure the noble Lord would agree with him, would be amongst the last to make any complaint against the Reform Bill, had they not been driven to do so by the situation in which it placed them; and they not only entertained apprehensions for themselves, but for the electors of the whole country, nearly one-fourth of whom would be disfranchished by the new Bill. That surely was an injustice which the promoters of the measure never contemplated, and he therefore trusted that some mode might be devised for remedying the evil.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the new right of voting, as far as scot and lot boroughs were concerned, did not do more than alter the time at which the rates were to be paid up. Formerly, in all scot and lot places, the rates must have been paid before the election; the only difference now was, that they must be paid at the time of registration. The old test of qualification
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had been retained in the new Bill, and he confessed he saw no reason sufficient to make a change necessary; and if the electors found themselves, as they said, disfranchised, they had only to attribute the circumstance to the fact of their not having paid up their rates in due time; for they certainly would have nothing to complain of, in any instance, where it could be shown that the rates had not been demanded. Suppose a dissolution of Parliament had taken place, and that the day of election happened to be fixed for that upon which the payment of rates had been fixed, would not the electors have been placed in that situation of which they now so loudly complained? He confessed he did hoar with great surprise the statement which his right hon. friend had just made, for he was utterly unable to understand how so large a proportion of the electors of Westminster could be disfranchised. He could not conceive how in the wealthy parish of St. James's there could be 2,000 householders who had not paid up their taxes; and he was sure that upon inquiry it would turn out that there had been much misapprehension and exaggeration.
Colonel Evansthought, that the noble Lord took too favourable a view as to the number of persons who would be entitled to vote, and that they had been over-rated even by the right hon. Baronet himself. According to the view which he (Colonel Evans) took of it, he would contend that according to the old right, there was scarcely an elector in Westminster who would be entitled to vote—and there were very few, indeed, who would be entitled to vote under the new Bill. He did hope, therefore, that the noble Lord would not allow a new Parliament to meet until this question was set at rest, and until what he called the evil of it was remedied. The people would think that they were taken by surprise, and that it was the intention of Government to limit rather than to extend the franchise.
Lord Althorprepeated, that if rates were not demanded of those who heretofore had the right of scot and lot voting, they could not be disqualified by the nonpayment, and therefore every elector could qualify up to the day of registration. He had no wish to limit the franchise or to disqualify any elector by the operation of this Bill. He might, it was possible, lose the confidence of the people by a misap-

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prehension in this respect; but if that should happen (which he should exceedingly regret), it would still be a satisfaction to him to reflect that be was a member of the Government who carried the Reform Bill. But he had little fear of losing the public confidence on any matter connected with that measure.
Colonel Evanssaid, that the noble Lord might be mistaken in laying that flattering unction to his soul; for though he gave him full credit for his intention to extend the franchise, the people might not be satisfied when they found that no means were taken to remedy that part of the Bill which would operate to the limitation rather than the extension of the right of voting.
Mr. Hughes Hughessaid, that there seemed to him to be an erroneous opinion as to the power of altering and amending the Reform Bill in the present Session. That power, he conceived, fully existed according to the forms of the House; for, by a clause in the Boundary Bill, it was enacted, that that Bill, when it did pass, should be taken as part and parcel of the Reform Bill, as much as if it had been embodied in it; and by a subsequent clause in that Bill it was enacted, that it might be altered and amended in the present Session. He had consulted several eminent lawyers on the subject, who all gave it as their opinion that the Bill might be altered and amended in this Session.
Lord Althorpapprehended that the technical ground which the hon. member had taken would not do, but he (Lord Althorp) had not gone upon any technical ground in the measure which he had proposed to bring in on this subject. He had withdrawn that measure, because, if it were opposed, there would not have been time to pass it before the 20th of August, the period to which he had proposed to extend the payments; besides, he did not feel disposed to press a matter for discussion in so thin an attendance when opposition was offered to it.
Mr. Warburtonexpressed a hope that if the Bill was to be amended, it should not be by a Parliament which still included schedule A. He regretted very much that the operation of any clause of the Bill should tend to limit the franchise in any part of the kingdom; but still he would rather have it amended by a Reformed Parliament.
Mr. Hudson Gurneydid not think that
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the noble Lord could at all be blamed for the operation of this clause, nor for his desire not to bring the subject again under discussion in the present Parliament. At the same time he should feel no objection to the introduction of a bill to remedy any defect that might be found in the Bill.
Sir Charles Forbeswas not surprised that many of the electors had neglected to pay their rates when they had been advised by several hon. Members not to do so. He had heard it said, that the hon. member for Middlesex had advised several persons not to pay their rates, and the hon. Member himself had not denied the fact. If electors, therefore, had chosen to disqualify themselves, they must take the consequences.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid, that the statement of his noble friend as to the scot and lot right of voting, ought to be satisfactory to those who had heretofore exercised that right, namely, that payment of all rates demanded up to the day of registration would be sufficient. He thought that there was something in the point alluded to by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Hughes Hughes), as to the power of altering and amending the Bill in the present Session; but even if that ground did not exist, he saw no reason why the Bill should not be amended in the present Session if necessity required it. There was no act to prevent such an alteration, even though a clause had not been introduced to declare that it might be so amended. The only practical objection that could be made to such Amendment would be, that many Members had gone away who probably would have remained had they thought that the Bill was to be altered; but that objection could not well apply to this case, as no alteration of the Bill itself was contemplated, but merely an extension of the time at which voters might qualify. They had recently heard much of pledges, but it appeared to him that the public had a right to expect that the pledges which that House had made to give them an efficient measure of Reform should be redeemed, and that if the measure was found to be less efficient than was intended, the defect should be remedied before it was too late.
Petition read.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that, as he viewed the clause relating to the payment of rates, he feared that the electors of Westminster were put in a much worse

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situation than they were before. At all events, a vast number of them had got into a predicament from which they could not easily extricate themselves, and, therefore, he was anxious that, if the difficulty which they apprehended existed, it might be removed.
Mr. Hudson Gurney, in explanation, observed, that what he stated was, that the noble Lord was not to blame for the defect of the Bill as it stood; but so far was he from opposing the remedy for that defect, that he would have no objection to the introduction of a bill for that purpose, which should go through all its stages in one day.
Petition to be printed.

BANK OF ENGLAND.
Lord Althorpmoved that the Secret Committee appointed to inquire into the affairs of the Bank of England should have leave to report the minutes of evidence taken before them.
Agreed to.
The noble Lord brought up the Minutes of Evidence, which he moved should be printed.
Mr. Sadlerasked whether the Minutes contained the whole of the evidence taken by the Committee?
Lord Althorpsaid, that they did contain the whole of the evidence with the exception of some small part which referred to the private affairs of individuals who had been examined. Indeed, the whole of the omissions consisted of two questions which had been asked of one witness, and which related to his private affairs.
In answer to another question by an hon. Member,
The noble Lord stated, that all the documents produced before the Committee were given in the Minutes, with the exception of those which were repetitions.
Mr. Hughes Hughes wishedto ask the noble Lord whether he had the sanction of the witnesses to the publication of their evidence? The reason why he asked the question was, that he was the other day in company with a gentleman who had been examined before the Committee, and who stated, that considering it a committee of secresy, he had given evidence which he should not wish to have done if he had thought it would be published.
Lord Althorpfelt the difficulty to which the hon. Member alluded, and to obviate any objection on that ground, the question
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was put by the Chairman of the Committee to every witness examined, whether he had any objection to the publication of his evidence, or whether there was any part of it which he would wish to have omitted. The answer from every one of them was, that they had no objection, except in the case of the two questions to which he had before alluded.
Mr. Sadlerwished to know, whether those omitted questions related to any important public matter.
Mr. Hudson Gurneydid not think the question a fair one, considering that this was a Secret Committee.
Lord Althorprepeated, that the matters related to the private affairs of the individual under examination, and which were given in illustration of the general question. The noble Lord added, that he should not do justice to the witnesses if he did not say that the whole of their evidence was given with the utmost candour and fairness.
Evidence to be printed.

ADJOURNMENT—AFFRAY AT CLITHERO.
Lord Althorpmoved, that the House at its rising do adjourn to Wednesday next.
Sir John Byngwished to take that opportunity of setting himself right with the House, with respect to an allusion made to him in The Times of that day. In an article in that paper, he had been alluded to respecting some remarks which he had made on the previous evening, on the disturbances at Clithero, and it was put, in ferentially, that though he might object to a massacre of the people by the troops in a narrow space, he would not have the same objection in a more extended sphere. To the House, and to those who knew him, he trusted it was unnecessary to say, that such an imputation was wholly unfounded. He did not charge the paper in question with any intention of maligning him, for he believed that it was made under a total misapprehension of what he did say. What he said was, that he regretted extremely the calling in of the troops until all means had been resorted to which could render their presence unnecessary. He meant to cast no blame upon the Magistrates in this case, but to express his regret generally, that military aid should be called in until every other means of quelling the disturbance had been found ineffectual, And his regret

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was the greater in this instance, because from his knowledge of the place, he was aware, that being narrow and confined, the cavalry, when called in, must almost necessarily be brought into collision with the people, a collision which might be avoided if they had a more enlarged sphere to act in. But he never meant, and never said, that it would be desirable to call in the military into any place where their presence could possibly be dispensed with. He knew that when the military were called in to act in confined and narrow spaces, in which, as he had said, they must be brought at the first moment into almost personal contact with the parties, upon whose proceedings they were intended to be a check, they ran the risk of hearing irritating language, and sometimes of being assailed by missiles, which might, for the moment, disturb that good temper and good feeling with which British soldiers were in the habit of performing their duty. But from all this they would be removed if they could be drawn up in such open space, where their presence would have all the effect of intimidation without any of the danger of immediate contact. He stated this as a general remark, and as what he meant to convey in what he had said on the occasion in question; but he supposed that the misapprehension arose from his imperfect mode of expressing himself, rather than from any wish to misstate anything that had fallen from him. It would, however, be in the recollection of any hon. Members who had attended to him, that he had distinctly expressed his regret, that the military should have been called in until every other means had been tried to preserve tranquillity by the civil power. He had admitted that Magistrates were placed in a difficult situation, but that did not alter his general remark, that the military ought to be called in only in the last resource, and that even then, if possible, they should be so placed as to display their power without using it. He was sure that the imputation cast upon him arose from a misapprehension of what he did say, but still, as it had been made, he felt it necessary to set himself right on the subject.
Motion agreed to.

MINUTES.
Bills. Received the Royal Assent by Commission:—Speaker's Retirement; Public Accounts; Revenue Accounts (Scotland); and the Lunatics.—Read a second time;—Consolidated Fund; Assessed Taxes; Composition; Lord chancellor's Salary; Land Revenues (Scotland); Bribery at Elections.—Read a third time:—Special Constables (Ireland); Speaker's Retirement; Land Tax Commissioners Names.