Sitting of 8 August 1832

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Chancery Sinecures.—Read a third time:—Speaker's Retirement; Land Tax Commissioners Names; Special Constables (Ireland.)
Petitions presented. By Mr. SADLER, from Weston and Ipswich, and by Sir FRANCIS BURDETT, from Disley, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill.—By Mr. SADLER, from Neath, against the Punishment of Death for Forgery.—By Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, from the Eastern parts of the Metropolis, for the better Observance of the Sabbath Day.—By Sir FRANCIS BLAKE, from Berwick-upon-Tweed, for the Abolition of Slavery—By Mr. BARNETT, from Maidstone, for further Consideration of Private Somerville's Case.

CASE OF ALEXANDER SOMERVILLE.
Mr. Henry Lytton Bulwerpresented a numerously-signed Petition from Coventry, praying for the immediate discharge of Somerville from the Scotch Greys. The hon. Member hoped, as the Court of Inquiry had terminated, that the evidence would be made public, and that Somerville would be immediately discharged.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, the proceedings before the Court of Inquiry had been laid before the King to-day, and as soon as his pleasure was made known, he should be happy to afford every information upon the subject. With respect to the discharge of Somerville, he had made an application to the proper quarter, for that did not depend upon him, nor was it in his power to grant a discharge. The answer, however, which he had received gave him reason to believe the discharge would soon be made out, and nothing that had occurred since had given him reason to alter that opinion.
Colonel Sibthorphad served for nine years in the Scotch Greys, and he knew that the officers were on all occasions disposed to act most kindly towards the privates. He knew, from experience, that it was extremely painful to be obliged to
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punish soldiers but it was necessary to preserve order and regularity in the army, and to hold a power over the army which was never enforced except in cases of absolute necessity. He deprecated all such complaints as these, as chiefly coming from those who had but little desire to see order and regularity in the army.
Mr. Henry Lytton Bulwerknew that many other armies were kept in good order without corporal punishment, and he saw no reason why our army should not be as well regulated without flogging.
Sir Charles Burrell said, it was a mistake to suppose that no soldier after flogging became a good and useful member of society. He had known many instances to the contrary during the time he was in the army; in one instance a drummer was flogged, and afterwards behaved so well that he became a Serjeant; and after leaving the army, he was elected to be Governor of Lewes House of Correction.

MAGISTRATES OF NOTTING HAMSHIRE.
Mr. Evelyn Denisonwished to ask a question of the Under Secretary for the Home Department, relative to the inquiry into the charges made against the gaoler and some Magistrates of the county of Nottingham. It would be recollected that the hon. Member for Preston had presented a petition against the authorities connected with the county gaol. In consequence, directions had been given by the Government to the Magistrates to institute an inquiry, which the Magistrates at first refused to enter upon. The question he now, however, had to put, was, whether the documents forwarded to Government had satisfied them that the charges were unfounded, and whether the refutation given had not been quite satisfactory? One of the charges made was, that a man had been confined for five days without water, while the fact was, that he had been confined in a yard in which there was a pump, to which he had unrestrained access. The only fact proved against the gaoler was, that he had been rather too indulgent, as he allowed this prisoner fire, which he would have to pay for himself.
Mr. Lambsaid, that the facts had been stated so clearly by the hon. Gentleman, that he had scarcely any thing to add. It was true, that the Magistrates had, at the commencement, shown some reluctance to enter upon an inquiry in which some parties might urge that they were inter-

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ested and into charges which he (Mr. Lamb) begged to say that he had never believed one word of. The Home-Office naturally wished the Magistrates of the county to make the inquiry, as the Home Secretary could not think of intimating any distrust of a body of men so respectable. The magistrates appointed a committee of five of their body, who were not in any way interested in the charges made, and they had taken the evidence of prisoners and others; and he had no hesitation in saying, that the statement laid before the Home department was a complete refutation of the false and slanderous charges made against the gaoler, and his only regret was, that the law did not afford any adequate redress against the originators of such a slander.

SPEAKER'S RETIREMENT BILL.
On the Motion of Mr. Spring Rice, the Speaker's Retirement Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Speakerhaving put the preamble of the Bill declaring, that it was in consequence of the high and eminent services of the Right Hon. Charles Manners Sutton, and the question having been carried by an unanimous "aye,"
The Speakersaid, "Before this Bill leaves the House, I trust the House will permit me again to express my most respectful and humble acknowledgments for this distinguished mark of their liberality and kindness."
Mr. Lambmoved that the Speaker's address be entered on the Journals.—Ordered.

CONSOLIDATED FUND—HALF-PAY.
Mr. Spring Ricemoved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Consolidated Fund Bill, for the purpose of moving an alteration in the appropriation clause, of which his right hon. friend the Secretary at War had given notice.
The House in Committee.
Mr. Humewould make one observation, which was, that, although this was not the opportunity for any individual to come forward with such remarks as he might think fit to make upon the expenditure sanctioned during the Session, he (Mr. Hume) availed himself of it, in order to declare, that there were many votes in which he had concurred during the Session, in order to save the time of the House,
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and allow the great measure of Reform to be brought to a' successful termination. He must at the same time distinctly say, that the expenditure of the country had not been brought down to the standard upon which, in his estimation, it ought to rest. It was, however, but justice to the Government to say, that many minor expenses had been extinguished, and many details laid before Parliament, which had heretofore been kept out of sight; as well as, also, that a measure was now before Parliament which would ensure a fair publication of the accounts of the country. The civil list had been placed on an intelligible footing; but he did not approve of all that had occurred with respect to the pension list; at the same time that there was this advantage gained—that all these branches were now subject to the revision of the Legislature. The votes for the army he could not but think too great, and totally disproportioned to the necessities of the country; and, considered in conjunction with the expenses of the ordnance, that must accompany such an establishment, no doubt existed in his mind of the necessity of a reduction. Indeed, all the reduction of clerks and minor offices were of little importance, as compared with this grand expense, and there was no hope of efficient reduction, so as to relieve the people, without lessening the Estimates for the army and navy. The militia had cost the country 4,500,000 l. since the peace, and was useless. So also was the yeomanry, and it would be disgraceful if, in a country rich beyond precedent, as this was, persons could not be found to preserve its peace without pay and emoluments. He therefore anticipated, that in the next Session, and with a Reformed Parliament, reductions might be effected so as to bring down the expenditure from 45,000,000 l. to 40,000,000 l. 5,000,000 l. might appear a large reduction, but when he looked to the variety and extent of our establishments, both at home and in the colonies, he had no doubt that when they were properly scrutinised this object would be effected, and a relief to the amount of 5,000,000 l. of taxation thus given. The right hon. Secretary for the Treasury deserved very great credit for the clearness he had already introduced into the public accounts, and he hoped for still further improvements, particularly with respect to the expense of collecting the revenue, which was now

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kept out of sight, but which, in point of fact, made the sums paid by the people amount to 49,000,000 l., instead of 45,000,000 l. The reductions in the Admiralty department were also deserving of commendation, and a saving of 500,000 l. had been effected in the purchase of timber. If the process of keeping the ships high and dry at Woolwich, now in progress, answered, he hoped the result would be an immense saving, instead of the expenditure of 29,000,000 l. since the peace for the navy—a sum which would, at the present prices, purchase our whole navy. He wished always to assist and support the navy as the best and most efficient arm of this country. The miscellaneous expenses amounted to 2,000,000 l., and, in those items, connected with Ireland in particular, he trusted to see very great reductions. The hon. Gentleman, in conclusion, repeated his declaration that his assent to many votes in this Session were not to be held as binding upon him on future occasions.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the hon. member for Middlesex had only exercised his parliamentary right in making the explanations he had given, more especially as the hon. Gentleman had frequently intimated that he waived many objections in order to facilitate the progress of the measure of Reform. Still he must be permitted to say, that much had been done by the present Government in the way of reduction. In the ordinary expenses of the navy alone, there had been effected a saving of 250,000 l. Upon the actual Estimates of the year there had been a reduction of not less than two millions. If the abstract amount of the income which went to pay the interest on the debt and the dead weight were taken into consideration, it would be seen that but comparatively a small sum remained open to be dealt with by Parliament in the way of reduction, and two millions reduced from such a sum was a great step indeed. He did not mean to say that it was to be a final step. He had also to remind the House that more had been done this year in reducing salaries than had been done during the three years preceding the accession to office of the present Ministry. He admitted that more yet remained to be done—a great deal more; but still the Government was entitled to credit for what it had already effected. He appealed to
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the hon. member for Middlesex as to whether Government had not also brought forward in the public accounts sums which had never been brought forward before; amongst which he might name 20,000 l. towards the Greek loan.
Mr. Courtenaydiffered from the hon. member for Middlesex in almost every word that he had uttered, except in his praise of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Spring Rice), whose industry and exertions were in the highest degree laudable. He should not then enter into the subject, as he should have another opportunity, but merely begged to ask a question as to the decrease of two millions of expenditure alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman. He wished to know whether the saving was effected as comparing this year with the last, or both years with those during the time of the late Government?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he meant decidedly that the saving was effected as comparing this year with the last.
Mr. Courtenay: Then it was not a saving as compared with the two last years.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, there could no blame be attached to the Gentlemen who usually sat upon his side of the House, for every proposition that came from the other side—the Reforming side—was sure to be carried. He quite agreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that all pensions to idle people ought to be abolished, and he, for one, would support such a proposition. There were, also, many of the high officers of the State whose salaries ought to be reduced; for instance, there was the First Lord of the Admiralty—to him he would allow 3,000 l. a year, thereby saving 2,000 l., which would be made up in patronage and honour; if the right hon. Baronet would not accept that sum, he (Colonel Sibthorp) would lake the office, and transact the business for nothing. Much had been spoken of savings; he, however, could not find them out, and when he had a return, which he was about to move for, of the expense of the wonderful Bill of Reform, as it was called, but which ought to be called the detestable and damnable bill, then the country would see what saving Government had made. It appeared that Parliament was to be dismissed with the consolation that there was already a deficiency in the revenue of 700,000 l., and the probability of a further deficiency of 400,000 l. next year, but which deficiency he, in his conscience

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believed, he could show would be at least 2,000,000 l. He, however, hoped Ministers would be able to face the country, and prove to him that his conjectures were wrong.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that he had given notice of his intention to propose an alteration of one clause of the Appropriation Act; he would not, however, do it then, but on the bringing up of the Report. It was, however, designed to permit officers on half-pay to hold civil appointments without forfeiting their half-pay. The right hon. Baronet stated the several changes which had taken place upon this subject from the year 1810, and observed, that the only exception had been made with respect to those officers who held the office of barrack-masters on foreign stations. As a general principle, it was laid down by the Finance Committee, that the half-pay was given as a retaining fee; but that could never be true in the case of the sick, the infirm, and the aged, nor for those who had been excepted by the Act of 1811. It was morally impossible that any thing like a majority of the officers on half-pay could be called into actual service, the number being now about 7,000. The Report of the Finance Committee of 1828 went upon figures, which certainly appeared rather astounding. According to it, there were 404 officers of the army on half-pay, holding civil offices to the amount of 41,000 l. a-year, and they had gone upon an inference which the Return proved to be unjust, namely, that the whole of this sum would be saved by the new regulation. The amount received by navy half-pay officers holding civil offices was 32,000 l. a-year, and the Committee assumed that a savins to the amount of 73,000 l. a-year could be effected; but the result had been rather the reverse. Officers upon half-pay would not give up that half-pay unless the salaries of the civil appointments were large, and many preferred remaining upon half-pay to making the exchange; so that, in fact, the expense was greater, as both services were separately paid. The present First Lord of the Admiralty, as a member of the Finance Committee of 1828, had been a strenuous advocate for the regulation it suggested: but his experience since he came into office had convinced him that he had formerly been mistaken, and that, practically, an injury was done by the change of system. The Finance
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Committee, it appeared, had proceeded upon wrong data, and that body had no right to assume what the result showed to be totally unfounded. Barrack-masters and officers serving in the police in Ireland, for which they were eminently fitted, must be deducted from the amount given for the army, and thus there would only remain 20,000 l. to be accounted for; but it was a great fallacy to suppose, that even getting rid of that would produce a reduction of expenditure. By the Return it appeared that in the course of four years, only twenty-one out of 404 half-pay officers were appointed to civil situations, as no more could be found who would give up their half-pay. Of 291 so situated at the commencement of the present year, 181 were of the lowest scale of officers; 106 holding civil appointments under 150 l. a-year, and none above 250 l. The gross amount of their several salaries was not more than double, instead of being four times the amount of their half-pay, as was inferred by the Finance Committee. Contending, then, that the Committee had gone on fallacious grounds, and also considering that half-pay officers were the best and most proper persons to till certain situations, he did not think they ought to be shut out. He should propose that this change should take place from the 1st of January next—that the appointment of military officers to civil situations should be with the sanction of the Treasury and the Secretary at War, and in order to give Parliament a proper control over such appointments, he would further propose, that a return should be annually laid before the House of the number of officers holding civil situations, and the amount of salary attached to those situations.
Mr. Humeobjected to the intended change, which in his opinion was an innovation upon the principle on which the array had been regulated by the 59th Geo. 3rd, which had been departed from from 1820 to 1828, and restored by the Finance Committee in the latter year. The right hon. Baronet was wrong in supposing that the principle which he was now about to do away with, originated with the Committee of 1828. The fact was, that by the 59th Geo. 3rd, officers in the army or navy were prevented from receiving their half-pay while holding civil appointments of a certain value. The Committee of 1828 had no wish to bar the admission of naval or military officers to civil appoint-

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ments, but it recommended that, when holding such appointments, they should no longer be a burthen to the country by the amount of their half-pay. The right hon. Baronet had taken too narrow a view of the subject, which would lead again to that confusion of accounts which of late years had been avoided. He maintained that the principle on which the Finance Committee had proceeded was perfectly correct, and that it was unfit and inexpedient that any half-pay officer should, at the same time, receive pay as a civil servant. The moment an officer accepted a civil appointment he ought to be no longer a burthen to the array. He should, therefore, oppose the bringing up of the clause.
Mr. Weylandsupported the Resolution. In his opinion all civil offices should be open to officers on half-pay, for that half-pay was the reward of past services, not a retaining fee for future services. He even disapproved of the regulation for taking away half-pay from those officers who were in holy orders.
Sir Adolphus Dalrytnplewas of opinion that the Finance Committee had been wholly mistaken in the view it took of the subject. He had, previous to this time, endeavoured to induce the Government to consent to such a change as that, and he was grateful for it now that it was proposed.
Colonel Sibthorpcordially agreed with the change proposed by the Secretary at War, and hoped to be able to concur with him in future more frequently.
Mr. Humewished it to be understood that he had no desire whatever to bar naval and military officers from holding civil appointments, as he thought them fully qualified for such appointments, indeed, he should wish to see officers selected for such appointments, in order that their half-pay might be saved to the country, which was the intention of the Finance Committee in its recommendation in 1828.
Mr. Weylandwished to throw out a suggestion for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. He was of opinion that officers who had served ten years, and were entitled to receive half-pay, should be allowed to retain their half-pay though they entered holy orders. He wished a clause of that kind introduced.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that there would be a strong objection to such a clause, inasmuch as those officers who took holy orders would not be available for the public service. Many cases had occurred, with
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reference to the subject of half-pay, involving circumstances so piteous, to which, if he had followed the dictates of his own feelings, instead of performing the strict duty of a public officer, he must have given way. The effect of this clause would he hoped, be, to lessen the number of such cases in future. The question between him and the hon. member for Middlesex was a question of economy. He could assure his hon. friend, that his efforts had been devoted to promote economy, while he did justice to all parties. The regulation could introduce no confusion into the public accounts: but it would be a measure of economy. He hoped that the country, though he had been accused of sacrificing economy and not doing justice, would give him credit for his motives. When this subject was clearly understood, the country would see that the change was not an infringement of public economy, and that it would not introduce confusion into the public accounts; but that it was calculated to restore to the King's service a right, of which it should never have been deprived.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that this clause had his approbation. He had not heard his right hon. friend's speech, but he concluded that his right hon. friend meant it to be with certain reservations. He certainly consented to the regulation with reservations. One of these reservations was, that the maximum of reward should not exceed the civil remuneration, including the half-pay; and that it might be checked, he certainly should recommend that the return of all those officers holding civil situations, and the amount of their half-pay and other emoluments, should be annually laid on the Table of the House. It was on that condition that he assented to it.
Clause agreed to—House resumed.

CROWN COLONIES (WEST INDIA) RELIEF BILL.
The Order of the Day, for receiving the Report of the Committee on the Relief of the Crown Colonies (West India) Bill, was read. The Report was received; and the Resolution, enabling his Majesty to apply 58,000 l out of the Consolidated Fund, for the relief of the Crown colonies, was read a first time.
On the question that the Resolution should be read a second time,
Mr. Humeinquired, whether there was any information before the House which

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would enable them to ascertain whether any of the Crown colonies had really adopted the Orders in Council?
Lord Howicksaid, that there was no information but what was then at the Bar of the House, and which, in the course of the evening, would be laid before it.
Mr. Burgeexpressed his regret that the House had not earlier information on this most important subject. He should take a future opportunity of explaining the grounds upon which the legislative colonies refused to adopt the Order in Council.
Mr. Courtenaysaid, the King had, by his Royal prerogative, sent forth these Orders in Council for the government of the colonies. That his Majesty had a right to do; but he contended, that it was most unjust to make the people of England pay for carrying those orders into effect. He objected to the haste with which this proceeding was pressed forward. The present Parliament was said not to represent people of intelligence and information; but it was said that a Reformed Parliament, which would soon assemble, would represent all the intelligence and information of the country. Why, then, he would ask, could they not wait for that Reformed Parliament, and leave to them the consideration of this question? He objected to the mode in which, as he had heard, Ministers meant to carry this measure. They intended to tack it to another, which, although it related to the West Indies, had no connexion whatever with the particular subject of the proposed grant; and, by that means, they hoped to prevent the other House of Parliament from exercising that proper interference, which otherwise they would most probably do.
Mr. Irvingsaid, that as to the Orders in Council, he had well considered them, and he had no hesitation in offering his opinion upon them. To him they appeared exceedingly objectionable, and he entirely condemned them. With respect to the reward to be given to those colonies which obeyed these Orders in Council, he was certain, that while it would entail a large expense on this country, it would not be productive of beneficial consequences. The hon. Member expressed his doubt as to the right of the Crown, by its prerogative, to enforce these orders. He then adverted to the wretched state to which, under regulations formerly agreed to, the island of St. Lucia was reduced; and concluded by observing, that though the measure about
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to be proposed was conceived in a good spirit, he was far from believing that it would be acceptable to the colonies.
Lord Howicksaid, that as the Order in Council had been attacked by the hon. Member, he would trouble the House with a very few observations upon a subject which had been already so fully and completely discussed. Measures of a similar description for the amelioration of the condition of the slaves had been brought into operation in Trinidad and St. Lucia in 1824 and 1825, and they had there produced the most salutary effects towards attaining the object which they had in view. It was upon the satisfactory and successful operation of those measures that the Order in Council of 1831 was founded, and it was in accordance principally with their provisions that that order was framed. Yet, such was the measure which had excited the indignation and provoked the attack of the hon. Member. He was astonished to hear the hon. Member question the prerogative of the Crown in enforcing the Order in Council in the Crown colonies. The hon. Member in doing so, had especially referred to British Guiana. Now it so happened, that since the capitulation of British Guiana, not a year had elapsed in which some Order in Council had not been introduced there, and enforced by the Crown. The hon. Member was misinformed, too, when he stated that the Government were ready to submit the question as to the prerogative of the Crown to the decision of a Court of Law, by having it tried by what was called a feigned issue. It was only a fortnight ago, that he had, by the direction of Lord Goderich, addressed a letter to the persons connected with the Crown colonies, informing them that his Majesty's Government would not submit that question to a feigned issue, as they had no doubt whatever with regard to the prerogative of the Crown on the subject, but that the parties themselves might, of course, if they pleased, appeal to a Court of Law on the subject. As the hon. Member's speech embraced no special details, he was not called upon to give any special answer to it, and he should not at present trouble the House with any further observations.
Sir Adolphus Dalrympleobjected to the late period of the Session at which this important subject had been brought before Parliament. The objections which were raised against the Orders Council did not

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relate to it, so far as it went to ameliorate the condition of the slaves, but contemplated only those mischievous and obnoxious parts of it, which, while they would not be productive of benefit to the slaves, would be most injurious to the interests and properties of the planters.
Mr. Burgesaid, that the noble Lord had betrayed his ignorance of the constitutional law relative to the colonies, when he insisted on the prerogative of the Crown to enforce the Order in Council in the Crown colonies. So far from the power of the Crown being undoubted on that point, some of the first law authorities best acquainted with the subject were at variance with the noble Lord; and it was a fact, that when the Judges in Trinidad were called upon to enforce the Order in Council, the whole of them left the Court, with the exception of the Chief Justice.
Lord Althorpremarked, that the object of the Orders in Council was, to improve the condition of the slave population of the colonies, without effecting any injury to the interests of the planters. He did not see that any argument had been used on the other side to induce the House to refuse its acquiescence to these Resolutions.
Lord Sandonsaid, that as he had already so fully stated to the House his reasons for pursuing the conduct he had followed with reference to this subject, he should not now trouble the House, nor should he further oppose this vote, though the noble Lord opposite had not afforded that information which might have been expected from him.
Mr. Fowell Buxtonobserved, that the Orders in Council were intended to benefit the slave population, without having any reference to the planters themselves. He hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would avail themselves of the opportunity afforded them in the approaching recess, in devising some measure for the utter extinction of the abominable system of negro slavery.
Mr. Ewartsupported most cordially the Orders in Council, under the consideration that they were a progressive measure towards a general relief of the slave population of the West-India colonies.
Mr. Fanecondemned the entire policy of his Majesty's Government with regard to the colonies, as absurd and impolitic. It had been justly called a money-scattering Government. First it made the country pay money to Russia, then to Greece,
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and now to the colonies, for complying with the views of the Ministers. The Orders in Council were impracticable, and had been found to be so, and he could not but think that it was most ridiculous that this House should now be called upon to support and recognize measures which, it was indisputable, were absurd and impracticable.
Mr. Humecould not hesitate in thinking that the conduct of the Government of this country, with reference to the colonies, had been, and was, most absurd. Indeed, it appeared that, according to the system which had been pursued, scarcely one Order in Council had been issued, and had arrived in the colony to which it was directed, when, without time being allowed to that colony to adopt it, however willing it might be to do so, another Order in Council followed, which went to mitigate or modify its predecessor. He maintained, that the prerogative of the Crown should only be exercised for the benefit of the public, and he was prepared to contend, that it was not in the power of the Crown to interfere with those rights which England possessed by any Order in Council; and, on the same principle, he was of opinion, that it was improper in such a way to interfere with the colonies. He held it to be a great thwarting of the Crown colonies so to interfere, or that they should not be maintained in that system or constitution which had been established in the year 1763 by the Orders in Council of that date, and by which it had been ordained, that every colony subject to the Crown of England should not only govern themselves, but have also the power of taxing themselves. These rights ought to have been preserved, instead of the colonies being made subject to the arbitrary issuing of Orders in Council. The suspension of these rights of taxing themselves for their own purposes was, in his judgment, a direct infringement on the rights of the subject, and to such an infringement he was, of course, decidedly opposed. He did not doubt but that his Majesty's Government meant and intended that the colonies should be properly governed, but, at the same time, he did not hesitate to say, that their efforts towards this object had failed of success. In the Mauritius, the refusal to receive a certain individual sent out as judge in that colony, and even the Orders in Council themselves had almost occasioned an insurrection in

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that colony. In short, the system which had been pursued could only tend to the weakening, and not to the improvement, of either this country or her colonies. He was prepared to question whether this country was pursuing a right course, in now, at the eleventh hour, sanctioning that which most certainly was a doubtful line of policy, and one, also, which it was proper, nay, incumbent upon that House to view and examine with a scrutinizing eye. He more particularly objected to the period when the subject had been brought forward—a measure, fraught as it was with importance—at a time, and with an assemblage of Members in the House, when the progress of pressing public business might be interfered with in a manner extremely unpleasant. He, therefore, would anxiously suggest the postponement of the consideration of the present subject, until it was satisfactorily known in what manner the Orders in Council had been received in the colonies. Such information was not now before the House—nay, he held in his hand the protest of the residents in Trinidad, and also of the colonists in Demerara, declaring that they could not and would not concur in the carrying those Orders into effect. He should also be glad to know from the noble Lord, who had attempted to answer the questions which had arisen in this respect, whether the accounts from St. Lucia or the Mauritius tended to show that they would support this project. The Government had not as yet been able to produce one tittle of evidence to show that these Orders in Council had been carried into effect in any one of the colonies, and therefore they were now asking from the House that money which they could not apply. On the whole, it appeared to him that the measure was premature in the extreme, and he therefore hoped the noble Lord opposite would wait until he had information of the practical results arising from the receipt by the colonies of these Orders in Council. When this information had been received, he should be ready to assist the noble Lord in carrying those Orders into effect, or to accomplish an amelioration of the condition of the slave population. With respect to that subject, he hesitated not to call upon the hon. member for Weymouth (Mr. Powell Buxton) to come forward with some measure, and suggest to the Government some plan, which would accomplish that object. How-
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ever, the planters had as much right to complain of the loss of property which was as much their own as the property of any individual in this portion of his Majesty's dominions. When any plan to accomplish the abolition of slavery was brought forward, then, he would say, let the Government take 57,000 l. a-year, or thrice that sum, for the purposes of compensation. He could not but think the present was an ill-timed proposition, which, under the popular cry, tended rather to stop than to forward the object which every man in the country had in view, and therefore it was, that he hoped the noble Lord opposite would suspend his proceedings, until the House was in possession of that information which alone could enable it to legislate with satisfaction on this important subject.
Mr. Sadlerwas ready to applaud his Majesty's Government for the line of conduct which they had in this instance pursued with reference to the slave population of the colonies; at the same time he regretted that they had not directed their attention to another system of slavery which prevailed. However great the sufferings of the slaves in the colonies might be, admitting all the statements which had been made upon the subject to be true, yet he would submit to the Government, and the noble Lord opposite, that the condition of the children labouring in factories in this country was one equally deserving of attention. He thought he was justified in embracing the present fitting opportunity of bringing before the Government of the country the condition of the white, the infant slaves of this country, who laboured fifteen hours a day, and that, too, in a manner which had excited the sympathies of the people of this country. The only apology which he could offer for bringing this subject forward on the present occasion, was the very argument which had been used with reference to the defence of the West-Indian policy—namely, that competition was to account for all the atrocities of the system. He entertained a hope that, while the Government were about to confer liberty on slaves, they would confer an equal boon upon the labourers of the mother country.
Mr. Weyland thought theSession should not be allowed to pass without making some provision as to infant labour. He was convinced, that if the money now proposed to be granted would tend to

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ameliorate the condition of the slaves, the people of England would not regret it. He was quite ready, from the disposition which had been manifested on this subject by his Majesty's Ministers, to place implicit confidence in them, for he saw that they were determined to accomplish an amelioration of the condition of the slave population, and to effect the eventual abolition of slavery.
Resolution read a second time and agreed to; and the question having been put, that it be an instruction to the Committee to provide for carrying the Resolution into effect,
Mr. Courtenaywished to know whether the conduct of the colonies was or was not a general combination against the law? If it were, they were paying some of the colonists merely for not entering into an illegal act. He knew that an attempt had been made to put this grant of money on the ground of a compensation for injuries sustained. All he could say on that head was, that if the Order in Council was justifiable, it should be proceeded upon without any compensation at all; and if it was not justifiable, it ought never to have been enforced. His voice should be given against the instruction.
The Instruction agreed to.

CIVIL LIST.
The House went into Committee on the Civil List Payments' Bill.
Mr. Courtenaywas sorry to take up the time of the House again, but he was desirous of making one or two observations on the Bill. This was a Bill for providing for a very small part of the charges formerly included in the Civil List; all not relating to the household being provided for by a grant to the King, a charge on the Consolidated Fund, and the annual votes of a Committee of Supply. The object of the Bill was to give this House an increased control over this expenditure. He had always objected to the separation of those of the civil government from the other expenses of the Crown; but he would not then enter into that part of the subject. What he meant to contend for was, that the House ought not to leave the Crown without the means—Parliament sitting or not sitting—of paying the great officers of State, and conducting the civil government. The effect of the arrangement under the Bill would be, that, with the exception of the
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Lord Lieutenant, who represented his Majesty in Ireland, and the Ministers at the several foreign courts, his Majesty would not pay, in future, any civil officer. It appeared to him, that this was in opposition to all the principles of the Constitution. It was, perhaps, right that the King should not pay the Commander-in-chief of the army, or the Master-general of the Ordnance, because the Constitution did not contemplate the existence of a permanent army, but it was right that he should pay all the permanent officers of the Government. With respect to the navy, that was also dependent on the House. He thought that the Bill was the first stage of a very republican proceeding. He knew it was unavailing to oppose this arrangement, but still he could not refrain from protesting against it. The noble Lord acknowledged that he had fallen into various anomalies in making this arrangement. The most ridiculous mistakes, in fact, had been made. He did not accuse the noble Lord of being a republican, but he repeated, that in his opinion, this was a very republican proceeding. In recurring to history, to see what the practice had been upon this matter, he had avoided referring to a Tory historian, being aware of his own Tory predilections (which, however, he trusted, he should never be ashamed of). He had referred, therefore, to the historian who came over with King William, a Presbyterian Whig (the worst of all Whigs), and nevertheless a Bishop of the English Church; he meant, of course, Bishop Burnet. He begged the attention of the House, for one minute, to what this prelate said of certain debates concerning the settlement of the revenue in the first year of King William's reign. 'By a long course, and the practice of some ages, the customs had been granted to our kings for life; so the king expected that the like regard should be shown for him. But men's minds were much divided in that matter. Some Whigs who, by a long opposition and jealousy of the Government, had wrought themselves into such republican principles that they could not easily come off from them, set it up as a maxim not to grant any revenue, but from year to year; or, at most, for a short terra of years. This they thought would render the Crown precarious, and oblige our kings to such a popular method of government as should merit the constant renewal of that grant;

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and they hoped that so uncertain a tenure might more easily bring about an entire change of government'. He was sure that the noble Lord opposite, did not make this change in the same spirit; but he must not be surprised if those who were not disposed to place implicit confidence in the Government, were very jealous of such a proceeding. Having entered his protest against the Bill, he should not occupy the attention of the House any further. He sincerely prayed that he might be mistaken, and that he should die, as he was born, under a monarchy.
Lord Althorpsaid, undoubtedly, although the salaries of the Ministers of the Crown were voted annually in this House, it never entered into his imagination that that was considered a "republican" proceeding, as the right hon. Gentleman termed it. He looked at this merely as a question of economy; and thought it desirable that the salaries of the Ministers of State should continue under the control and inspection of Parliament, rendered liable to such alterations as changes in the circumstances of the country might from time to time require. The House of Commons had so much power in the State, that no Administration could continue to exist contrary to the wishes of the House. He thought, therefore, whatever the theoretical deductions from this Bill might be, that it could not have the practical effect which his right hon. friend anticipated. He had already stated to the House the principle on which it proceeded. The expenses of the State, as a State, should be voted by a Committee of Supply, with perhaps one or two exceptions. The House generally concurred with him in this view, and therefore, he would not trouble it any further.
Mr. Humeremarked that, as the Judges were paid fixed salaries, it would be now desirable to know what reason there was for continuing the fees still payable in the different courts, which must evidently tend to the interruption of justice. Cheap justice was never so desirable as at this moment.
Lord Althorpsaid, he was not convinced that it was desirable to abolish all fees, though it was desirable to abolish such as were objectionable and onerous to the subject in obtaining justice in Courts of Law.
Mr. Humehoped the matter would be referred to the Judges of the different
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Courts, and that they would be required to return such public fees as it might be consistent and convenient hereafter to abrogate altogether.
Clauses agreed to, and the House resumed.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR'S SALARY BILL.
Lord Althorpmoved the Reading of the Order of the Day for the House to go into Committee on the Lord Chancellor's Salary Bill.
On the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. Sadlersaid, that though it was very possible his observations on this subject might lay him open to remarks which would not be at ail agreeable, still he thought his duty and his regard for consistency called on him to express his sentiments, and that in justice to his own opinions he could not adopt any other course. When the right hon. Baronet opposite was out of office, and proposed certain Resolutions relating to the salaries of the higher officers of State, he (Mr. Sadler) had supported those Resolutions, as he had done all recommendations that had for their effect to diminish the public burthens. He saw no reason to depart from that principle of conduct on the present occasion. He thought that the office, the salary of which was now under consideration, was one that ought to be maintained with becoming dignity, and certainly he should not stand forward to refuse the necessary allowance for that purpose. He must, however, say, that he objected to granting the salary now required. It had been found necessary to diminish the duties which the Chancellor was called on to perform, and he had been accordingly relieved from a part of his labours. Those labours were thrown upon the shoulders of others, but those who were called on to perform them received a compensation from the public purse. That fact ought to be taken into consideration in settling the amount of this salary. It was alleged that much valuable patronage had been taken away from the Lord Chancellor. That might be; but still, in his opinion, enough remained to satisfy any reasonable person. It had been stated, in 1824, that the average income of the Lord Chancellor amounted to 12,000 l. a-year—a sum which was occasionally much increased by the emoluments derived from his acting in the Court of Bankruptcy when bankruptcies

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occurred in great numbers; but surely a time of more than ordinary distress, which produced an increase of the emoluments of the Chancellor's office, ought not to be taken as the standard by which the usual profits of that office ought to be ascertained. The circumstances of the time, the alteration in the value of money, were things that showed the salary ought not to be kept at the same amount as before. In February, 1822, Mr. Brougham proposed a resolution, declaring, 'That it is the bounden duty of this House, well considering the pressure of public burthens upon all, but especially the agricultural classes, to obtain for the suffering people of these realms such a reduction of the taxes as may be suited to the change in the value of money, and may afford an immediate relief to the distresses of the country.'* In his speech on that occasion the present Lord Chancellor said—'That the only measure of mitigating the great evil which at present oppressed society, was to reduce by every expedient the burthens of taxation. This was to be done by real and efficient retrenchment, not by lopping off the salaries of petty clerks, and by little jobs of that kind, such as consolidating a few clerkships in one, to serve the dependant of some great man. It was not by petty unjust savings of this kind that real retrenchment was to be effected, but by beginning at the highest and going down to the lowest salaries, till every class of the State was included. He hoped they would not be any longer told that public men were not to be borne hard upon, when it was the fact that they were the only class that had not suffered enormously. He would not say whether they ought to be reduced fifteen or twenty per cent but they ought to be reduced in such a proportion as would be likely to give efficient relief to the suffering classes of the community.'† At that time the Home Secretary stated, that the salary of the Lord Chancellor did not exceed on the average 12,000 l. a-year. It was with surprise, after all this, that he heard such a sum as 14,000 l. a-year proposed for the salary of the present Lord Chancellor. He was fully convinced that there was no individual who was less influenced by a love of sordid gain than the
* Hansard, (new series) vol. vi. p. 259.
† Ibid. p. 255.
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noble and learned Lord, and he was sure that the present proposal was not submitted to the House in that spirit. Indeed, he believed that the noble and learned Lord would not have fixed the salary at so high a sum, had the settling of its amount been left to him. Still, however, he believed that the sum itself would be thought extravagant by the people, and he, therefore, called on that House to do what public duty required in reducing the amount of it.
Lord Althorpmust say, that he was himself a little surprised when he heard the hon. Member talk of surprise on being informed of the amount of the salary now proposed. One of the first acts of the present Government had been to refer to a Committee the salaries of the higher officers of the State, and that Committee received instructions to declare in what manner and by what amount they could be reduced. When was it that this surprise had come upon the hon. Member? That Committee had recommended the sum of 14,000 l. a-year as the amount to be fixed for the salary of the Lord Chancellor, so that that sum was not now proposed for the first time to take the hon. Member by surprise. He had no doubt that the country would approve of the present proposal, which, so far from being an increase of the salary of the Lord Chancellor, was a positive reduction. In the year in which the present Lord Chancellor had been paid according to the old system, his income had amounted to 14,600 l., after all deductions had been made; but the income was generally higher, and in several instances it had exceeded 18,000 l. or 20,000 l. a-year. It was said that the sum which ought to be taken as the proper standard for the amount of a salary was that at which the services of a man fit to fill the office could be obtained. Taking that as the rule, he did not think the present amount too high; for at a less sum it would be impossible to hope to obtain in this office the services of a leading man at the bar, who could never return to the practice of his profession, and who must take the chances of a short tenure of office. He should now only say one word as to the retiring pension. He thought that that pension ought not to take effect till all the sinecure offices attached to the Great Seal were abolished, and when the proper time came, he should propose a clause to that effect.
Mr. Humesaid, it was certainly true that the sum of 14,000 l. a-year had been recommended by a large majority of the Committee to which the noble Lord had referred—by a majority in fact of fourteen to two. He was, however, one of the two, and he still preserved his opinion. It was true, also, that when Lord Eldon was Chancellor, the emoluments of the office had exceeded 17,000 l., 18,000 l., and even 20,000 l. a-year; but the Committee did not found their calculations on that income. They took the income of Lord Lyndhurst, which had averaged 14,000 l. and a few hundreds a-year. But part of that salary had arisen from the fees in Bankruptcy. Now the Bankruptcy jurisdiction had been taken from the Lord Chancellor, and along with the fees went the labour. It therefore did not appear to him fair that the Chancellor should receive the full amount of fees which he would have received had the duties of the Bankruptcy jurisdiction been continued. This was the only office that had not been reduced: and, he thought, it ought not longer to form the exception. He wished too, that the duties might be further diminished, and that the Speakership of the House of Lords should be divided from the Chancellorship, and that a portion of the salary should be reduced on that account. He should be ready to support any proposition for reducing the salary to 12,000 l. a-year.
The House went into Committee.
Mr. Sadlermoved, as an Amendment, a reduction of 2,000 l. a-year on the Chancellor's salary.
On the Amendment the Committee divided; Ayes 6; Noes 52—Majority 46.
The other Clauses agreed to, and the House resumed.

GREEK LOAN CONVENTION.
Lord Althorpmoved the Second Reading of the Greek Loan Convention Bill.
Mr. Bestwished to observe, that the noble Secretary of State, on a former occasion, had said that he entertained great hopes, that although this country entered into this guarantee, it would not ultimately be called upon to pay the whole of this money; but the noble Lord did not very satisfactorily explain the grounds of his opinion. He (Mr. Best) was, on the contrary, much afraid, that we should be required to pay the whole sum without the least prospect of its being repaid. Greece was at this moment in a state of
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anarchy, and how the noble Lord could entertain any hope that a country, in such a situation, would be able, in the course of a year or two, to pay even the interest of this money seemed incomprehensible. The hon. member for Middlesex had given notice of a motion for a Return of the sums which had been already advanced by this country to Greece; that Return had not yet been produced, but he presumed it was intended to repay that sum out of the first instalment of this loan. There would also be a sum of money paid to Turkey on account of the new territory annexed to Greece by the extension of the new boundary line. The amount of this sum had not been stated; perhaps the noble Lord would inform the House what it was. Besides these two charges, there would be other charges to be defrayed; for instance, for erecting fortifications on the new frontiers; whether ultimately to be demolished, as in the case of the fortifications erected at so much expense to this country on the Belgian frontiers, was not ascertained. These several charges would completely absorb the whole of this money. To judge by these protocols, it was expected by Greece that the greater part of this money should be employed in putting that country into a state of defence, and relieving it for a time from the pressure of taxation; but if the money was to be applied to the discharge of former advances, how would it be possible so to benefit Greece, as to enable her to meet hereafter the interest of this loan. Besides, there was another charge imposed upon this money—namely, the relief proposed to be afforded to the refugee Greeks who should have returned to their native country in a state of destitution. When all these charges were defrayed, what residue could there possibly be to be applied for the improvement of the country? Thus were they now called upon to vote, under the delusive form of a guarantee, an actual grant of 800,000 l. to Greece—and for what? It had not been shown to be for the interest of this country that we should shackle ourselves with such a charge. It had been said, that we were interested in establishing the independence of Greece, in order that the piratical system, so prejudicial to our commerce, might be put down; but there were surely other modes by which piracy might be suppressed in the Mediterranean, which would be much less expensive to this

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country. He could not, therefore, consent, to this money being advanced, unless the noble Lord could state some more specific reasons than had yet been given, and could show that this country was more strongly interested in this arrangement than she now appeared to be. There was one other point in this arrangement which required further explanation—namely, as to the choice of Prince Otho for the sovereign of Greece. He did not mean to draw any comparison between that Prince and Prince Leopold, with regard to their personal merits; but there was one circumstance which demanded particular consideration, and which constituted a very serious objection to the choice now made, and that was, that Prince Otho was a minor; and there was no provision made to prevent any future sovereign of that country being also a minor. But, in the present state of anarchy in Greece, what was likely to be the consequence of a disputed succession. Even in old and firm established governments, many inconveniences arose from the minority of the sovereign; how much more must that inconvenience be felt in so new and unsettled a country as Greece. Under all these circumstances, he hoped that the noble Lord would postpone this question to a time when it could be better discussed. He lamented to see the House so thin, and regretted that a question of this sort should be introduced at such a period of the Session, and at such an hour. It was a circumstance almost unexampled in legislation. If this money were paid away under these circumstances, he should be almost inclined to despair of any future retrenchment in the expenditure of the public money; and feeling that they had no sufficient grounds for proceeding with this measure, he would conclude by moving, that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Sir Francis Vincentseconded the Amendment, because he thought the Convention would prove onerous to this country, and that it was not calculated to secure the object which it had in view.
Colonel Evanssaid, he understood that the bargain contained in this Convention was almost confirmed before the present Government came into office; and, therefore, it might, perhaps, amount to a breach of faith, if the terms of the bargain were now infringed. He was, therefore, quite prepared to support the Bill.
Mr. Humesaid, this was an act of the
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Holy Alliance, of which we had the honour to be one. The speculation now, with respect to Greece, was to send them a king, for which they had never asked. It would be better to leave them to select one for themselves, or allow them to be without a king altogether. To him it seemed a most Quixotic arrangement, and one to which our Government had been seduced by the wiles and artifices of Russia.
Mr. Ruthvenconsidered the guarantee the same thing as absolutely giving the money; and he thought that this country had already sufficient loans of its own at home, without meddling with any foreign one. He should, therefore, oppose the Bill.
Mr. Courtenayshould not divide with his hon. friend. He had made an attempt the other night to get a short postponement, and though he had failed in that, he could not vote against the measure altogether. He concurred in thinking that we had gone too far in this matter to recede. He could not admit that the late Government was pledged to this particular guarantee to prince Otho; but certainly the transaction, beginning with Mr. Canning, and continued by the Duke of Wellington, had gone too far to admit of its being now broken off, though that arrangement was made by them—not with Greece itself, but with Prince Leopold. In voting for the Bill, he felt that he was voting away 800,000 l.; for he could not understand how they could ever get the money back. The only ground upon which his noble friend built any hope was, that we might realize a revenue from Greece, because the revenues of the Ionian islands had been augmented. But how were those islands governed? Ministers did not send out a boy to govern them; but a man—a very full grown man. The noble person destined to take the throne, if he might so express himself, of those islands, had royal blood in his veins, of a much more ancient house than the house of Bavaria. Let that noble person go to Greece, and be the king of that country, instead of the youth Otho, and there would be greater security for the money being repaid.
Viscount Palmerstonknew, that we might have found in this country candidates for the throne of Greece, with royal blood in their veins, and knew that it was not necessary to have gone far, not further,

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indeed, than the opposite bench, to have found a person not only with royal, but with imperial blood in his veins; and he could not help expressing some surprise that his right hon. friend, who was himself descended from a Greek emperor, should show so little sympathy for the Greeks of the present day; and that he should have opposed himself to any proposition for their advantage. When he was required to state the amount of the Greek revenue, he begged to say, that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whoever he might be, was called upon to anticipate the amount of revenue of this country even for one year only, he always expressed, with some degree of hesitation and doubt, his anticipations of the next year's income; and to call, therefore, upon him, to act the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Greece, and to anticipate what would be the revenue of that country, not for the next year only, but for the next six years, was to require him to undertake a task somewhat difficult, and one which, with all deference, he must decline, seeing that the ablest financiers could not perform it in the best regulated states. His firm conviction, however, was, that the revenue of Greece, under a stable Government, would be amply sufficient to meet the demands upon it, and he believed, that the whole of the loan would not ultimately be required to be raised. At the same time, he would not ask the House to come to this vote upon any such supposition; because the engagement went to the full amount of the loan. One hon. Gentleman had asked, what was the amount of the compensation to be paid to Turkey on account of the cession of territory consequent upon the extension of the northern frontier of Greece: the total amount, he believed, would not exceed 500,000 l.: it had not been officially stated by our ambassador at Constantinople, but he believed that was the sum agreed upon between the ministers of the Three Powers and the court of the Sultan. That sum would amount to very little more than half of the first instalment out of the three which were to be paid. The first instalment would be 800,000 l. (the whole amount of the loan being 2,400,000 l.) he, therefore, did not anticipate that more than the first and second instalments would for some time be required. The hon. Gentleman said, that he did not see the value of these frontiers; and he observed, that we had already been at very
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great expense in providing a frontier and erecting a barrier for Belgium, a great part of which we were now going to demolish; and so here he insinuated, we were also incurring great expense for the purpose of erecting a barrier for Greece, which, he meant to infer, we should, at some future time, find it necessary in like manner to demolish. But the hon. Gentleman forgot, that in this instance, nature had made the barrier, having heaved up a large and lofty chain of mountains, more effectual than any fortifications of art, and the time was not likely to come when we should be called upon to pull down that chain of mountains. If the hon. Gentleman would only consult the map, and look at the nature of the country, he would find that the acquisition of the two districts which this new line of frontier gave to Greece, was of the utmost importance to that country. The people of those two districts, Arcanania and Ætolia, were essentially Greek. They were that part of the Greek nation which never, even in the most prosperous time of Turkish power, submitted to its domination. They formed the most warlike portion of the Greek forces, and to have placed them under the dominion of the Turks, would, in the first place, have been impossible; and if possible, would have been a cruel act. A nominal transfer would not have been followed by submission; a continual mountain warfare would have been kept up by the people against the Turks; and so far from such an arrangement effecting the pacification of Greece, it would have sown the seeds of perpetual discord in that country. It was, therefore, not only an act of justice to attach those districts to Greece, but it was most essential to the attainment of the object for which our interference originally took place. But, said the hon. Gentleman, what interest had England in this matter? Why should we interfere about Greece? And that opinion, he was sorry to say, had been expressed by the hon. member for Middlesex also, who had described our proceedings with respect to Greece, as a Quixotic interference, uncalled for by the interests of this country. That was easily said in the year 1832, when the Greeks had been emancipated from Turkish slavery by the arms of the Three Powers concerned in this Convention; but if that language had been held some years ago, when the Greeks were struggling for their independence,

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and when the whole of Europe was warmly interested in their fate, and when there was hardly a man who did not sympathize with their sufferings, and demonstrate his sympathy by that most indisputable of all proofs, subscribing his money—if such language as had fallen from the hon. member for Middlesex, had been then uttered by any man, that hon. Member would have been the first to reprobate it with his utmost indignation. It was only necessary to look back at the state of the question, when our interference began, to see that then it was the general opinion, that Europe had an interest in the emancipation of Greece. But taking the most vulgar view of the matter, one solely of profit and loss, was it not notorious, that our commerce was experiencing continual interruption, and exposed to most serious excesses, from the system of piracy which arose from the struggle, and from the want of a settled government in Greece? And would the hon. Gentleman say that this was not a matter of very serious importance to this country? But he could not so narrow his views as to judge of a great political question by looking at the two sides of a money account, or even to estimate the merits of the arrangement by the question whether this country might or might not ultimately have to pay part of the interest of this loan. He could not think that England, in restoring that nation, be it ever so barbarous now, and be the people as full of faults as possible (and it was very natural that they should be so, seeing that they had lain for centuries in abject slavery, under a Government not remarkable for intellectual attainments, or amiable deportment towards its dependents)—be the people ever so barbarous now, he could not conceive that England in restoring them to a state of independence, by which their native home again became the seat of civilization, and a living member of the nations of Europe—he could not conceive, that England in doing that, served no interest of her own. The interests of civilization, the interests of commerce, and the interests of political independence, were all the interests of England, and all had been signally promoted by the emancipation of Greece. But, he said further, that we had no choice; at least, the only choice was this—whether we would assist to free Greece in conjunction with Russia and France, or allow Russia to make the country depend-
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ent on her. He asked whether we ought to have left Russia to settle this question single-handed? If she, unaided, had rescued Greece from the dominion of Turkey, would she not have acquired a paramount claim to the eternal gratitude of the Greeks; and would she not thus have established an influence which would have made Greece practically a Russian province? He did not think that those Gentlemen who had dissented from this vote would have been prepared to approve of such a result; and if not, then the only course left was the course we had followed. First, we united with Russia; and then we got France, the other great maritime power of Europe, to join us. It was, therefore, both for the honour and for the permanent and well-understood interests of this country, that England should have contributed to rescue Greece from the dominion of the Turks, and to restore her to her rank among the civilized nations of Europe. But the hon. Gentleman said, "You have given her a boy for a Sovereign; and have not established the Salic law;" and, said the hon. Gentleman, speaking in a country in which in all human probability the next reign would be that of a queen—"It would be impossible Greece could prosper, if at any time the throne should devolve upon a female." He was astonished at this objection. Looking at times past, and remembering that some of the most glorious periods of our annals had been the reigns of females, he was utterly surprised to hear such an objection. The hon. Gentleman said, "I do not object to a male filling the throne of Greece; but if a female should ever reign, then there must be a disputed succession." He did not exactly understand the logic of that argument, nor could he perceive what was the necessary connexion between a disputed succession and a female reign. He admitted that an objection might arise from the youth of the prince chosen for the throne of Greece. It would certainly have been desirable to have selected a prince of such an age as would have enabled him at once to assume the reins of Government at the moment of his arrival. But, after having endeavoured in vain to find such a person, with the other requisite recommendations, the Three Powers ultimately felt that, taking all things together, there was no choice so much to be preferred, as that of Prince Otho, It was, in the first place, desirable

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that the person chosen should belong to a reigning house; without any prejudice in favour of particular families; because it was desirable that the sovereign of Greece should be connected with some family reigning over a state of some political consequence in Europe. In the next place, the person to be selected should be one who would be able to bring with him adequate means for consolidating the Greek throne; such as pecuniary resources, able councillors, and a small body of troops. In the first place, then, prince Otho belonged to a royal family, the most considerable of the second order of the states of Europe: next, he belonged to a country of free institutions, and that was important. At least he should not have wished the person destined to reign over Greece, to come from a country of despotic institutions, and who necessarily would have carried with him (especially if he had arrived at man's estate) ideas, as to the forms and principles of government, inconsistent with those entertained by the nation over whom he was destined to reign. Then, further, Prince Otho went accompanied by three persons, whose names he did not feel at liberty to mention, though he believed they were already fixed upon, of great eminence and talent, of much experience in public affairs, and peculiarly well qualified to administer the affairs of Greece and to establish order in that country. For these reasons he thought that the choice made of prince Otho was, under all the circumstances, the best that could be made: particularly as the king of Bavaria, from the commencement of the Greek revolution, had manifested great sympathy for the Greeks. Many Bavarians had given distinguished assistance to them, and thus a connexion had already been established between the Greek nation and Bavaria. But the hon. member for Middlesex said, he should wish the choice to have been left to the people of Greece, and he seemed to think that the Greeks would be better without any king at all. To suppose that, in a nation so divided by party-differences as Greece unquestionably was, after achieving its independence by individual exertions, rather than by union under one leading chief—to suppose that, in a nation so circumstanced, the people should agree to elect one of themselves to be their king, was to suppose that which was almost impossible. Such a consent could hardly be looked for in
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any country, but least of all in Greece. But so far from their not wishing to have Prince Otho for their king, he could assure the hon. Member, that there had been received from all parts of Greece thanks to the Three Powers for having selected Prince Otho; and addresses to Prince Otho himself, from most of the principal Greeks, expressing their satisfaction at the selection, and requesting him to proceed to their country with the least possible delay. Greece now felt, that peace and prosperity could only be obtained upon the arrival of her king. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Best) thought that Prince Otho anticipated a speedy return to Bavaria, because the prince had retained his present appanage. Now that appanage was retained expressly with the view to relieve the revenues of Greece for the present from the burthen of wholly supporting the king; and as to the expense of Prince Otho's court, he could assure the hon. Member, that, so far from being established upon a scale of splendid magnificence, it would be framed with the utmost moderation, and the greatest attention to economy. With regard to the original Greek loan, he begged to say, that nothing could be more true, than what was stated by his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, that almost the only chance the creditors of that loan had of recovering their money, was by Greece becoming permanently an independent state; and if this could not be done without raising this new loan, then no persons were more deeply interested in carrying the present arrangements into effect, than those who advanced the former loan. There would be no prospect of their ever recovering their money if, by the failure of the present arrangements, Greece were to relapse under the dominion of the Turks, or remain in her present state of anarchy. It had been said, that this was a new arrangement made by the present Ministry; but, far from that, he could not repeat too positively that the papers laid before the House by the last Government in 1830, showed most clearly that this was an engagement, previously entered into by the Three Powers by a protocol, which was a binding diplomatic instrument, and that this protocol was formally communicated by them to the government of Greece, which government acknowledged with thankfulness, as a proof that the Three Powers took an

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interest in the welfare of Greece, not only by sending it a king, but also by affording it the means of establishing him on his throne. But he had further proof of the position he was now arguing, besides the fact of this communication to the Greek government; though this he considered conclusive. If the engagement had been made with Prince Leopold personally, why should it have been formally communicated to the government of Greece at Napulia? If it were a personal engagement with Prince Leopold, why should these words appear, namely, "The Three Powers guarantee to the new state?"—to the "new state," be it observed, and not to "Prince Leopold." But what happened subsequently? The government of Greece applied to the Three Powers to make a pecuniary advance; and the Government of England did make an advance to Greece of 20,000 l., which was to be repaid out of the loan when made. That was an answer to the hon. Gentleman who asked what money had been advanced to Greece; there was an advance of 20,000 l. in 1830, which would be repaid out of the first instalment raised by the Greek government; therefore, so far from this vote having the effect of producing any expense to the public, he might be wrong, but he was convinced that we should not be called upon to pay any portion of the interest; it would actually enable us to get back the 20,000 l. already advanced. It had been said, that we were undertaking this guarantee wholly to please Russia, and that, in the Greek arrangement, we were following blindly the policy, and doing the work, of the Holy Alliance. If he had any understanding of the meaning of that name "Holy Alliance," it was an engagement between sovereigns to dispose of nations without their consent, and intended to prevent the establishment of free institutions. Nothing could be more entirely different from the objects of the Holy Alliance than the engagement of the Three Powers to establish the independence of Greece. It was an engagement entered into to support the Greeks, then in a state of slavery, and while the Turks were waging against them a war of extermination—a war in which the utmost bravery, and the sacrifice of everything which made life valuable, were insufficient to enable the Greeks to contend successfully against their opponents;—it was an engagement to rescue a
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country long covered with darkness and immersed in barbarism, and to give it a new existence among the civilized nations of the world; it was an engagement for converting that country, which had for centuries been a political blank, into what he hoped it would some day become, a centre of civilization, a scat of commerce, a land of happiness and well-regulated freedom. He therefore thought that it was impossible to state two objects more entirely different from each other than the purposes for which the Holy Alliance, as it was called, was supposed to have been instituted, and the purposes of the Greek Treaty of 1826. However indisposed the House might be, to enter into guarantees of this kind, and however he might dislike and disapprove of such engagements in the abstract, yet he did trust that this was a case which the House would think ought to be made an exception to the general rule. That Parliament was bound by the engagement which the Crown had made, he would not say, for the very proposition which he was making was founded on the assumption that Parliament was free to adopt or to refuse it; but, in point of honour and good feeling, he trusted, the House would think that it ought to enable the Crown to conclude a transaction in which we had been honourably engaged for several years; while a regard for our national character, as well as for our commercial and political interests, ought to lead us to complete the settlement, which, in conjunction with the other Powers, we had honourably undertaken.
Bill read a second time.

PARTY PROCESSIONS' (IRELAND) BILL.
On the Motion of Mr. Stanley, the House resolved itself into Committee on the Party Processions' (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. Shawprotested against proceeding with the Bill at that time of the Session, when so many Irish Members were out of town, relying on the Bill not being brought forward this Session.
Mr. Stanleyexpressed his determination to proceed with the Bill. If the Irish Members conceived the Bill was not to come on, the misapprehension was their own. There was no understanding that the Bill should be dropped.
Mr. Shawmoved that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
On this question the Committee divided: Ayes 4; Noes 38—Majority 34.
The Committee subsequently divided several times on similar Motions, or Motions intended to prevent the progress of the Bill, but finally the Bill went through the Committee, and the House resumed.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Revenue Accounts (Scotland); Public Accounts; Speaker's Salary; Aberdeen College; Glass Duties.—Read a third time;—Bills of Exchange; Sugar Duties; Exchequer Bills.
Petitions presented. By Lord REDESDALE, from Hoxton and Whitechapel, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill.