Sitting of 10 April 1832

MINUTES.
Bills brought in. By Mr. KENYON, for Encouraging and Facilitating the Employment of Labourers in Agriculture.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. BURGE, Copies of all Communications made to the Government by Lord Belmore, relative to the Rebellion in Jamaica, received subsequently to those already presented to the House:—On the Motion of Mr. SPRING RICE, of the Sums charged by the Excise under 4 Gm. 4th, cap. 94, for Spirits produced, being short of the Charge by Gravity, of Worts, Attenution, or Charge from the Low Wines in Ireland; and if any, or what part of these Charges remain unpaid, by whom, and Sums by each, at 5th April, 1832; of the Sums, if any remaining unpaid to Excise in Ireland and Scotland, for additional Duties of 2d. and 4d. per Gallon on Spirits, under 1 William 4th, cap. 49, by whom, and Sums by each, at 5th April, 1832:—On the Motion of Mr. James E. GORDON, of the Number of Applications to the Board of Education in Ireland for New Schools on their System, or on behalf of Schools already Established, and the Number of Applications complied with, the Place where situated, the Number of Scholars, &c.:—On the Motion of Mr. SHAW, of any Treasury Minute made in pursuance of 1 William 4th, determining the Remuneration to be made for the renewal of Commissions of the Peace in Ireland; of all Pensions paid to the Officers of the Chancery Court Ireland, the Amount of Stamp Duties called the Chancery Fund, and all Orders and Regulations made for the practice of that Court, from May, 1819, to January, 1832, distinguishing each year:—On the Motion of Mr. LAMBERT, of all Sums received by the Board of First Fruits in Ireland from the Union of St. Mary New Ross, during the last twenty years, distinguishing the Amount received in each year.
Petitions presented. By Mr. LAMBERT, from the Inhabitants of Killigney, Chaple, and Rower:—By Mr. WISE, from the Landholders and Inhabitants of Killsheelan, Killaloan, Tipperary, Killenaule, Borris, Multyfarnham, Leary, Laeken Street, Tacamslaine, Enniscorthy, Templeshannon, Gorey, Kilkevan, Clone, Barony of Forth, Barrow, Ballynaslaney, Edermine, Clonmore, Kilrush, Taghmere, Carnew, Lea, Syddam, Mitchelstown, Killeavey, Ennisworth, and Cruisetown, for the Abolition of

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Tithes in Ireland:—By Mr. WYSE, from the Inhabitants of Enniscorthy, and Templeshannon, to Suspend the Bill on the Irish Tithes until after the Reform Bills are passed:—By Lord KILLEEN, from the Inhabitants of Dunsany, Killeen, and Waterford, for an increased Number of Representatives for Ireland; and from Carrabrown, for Equalizing Civil Rights in Galway:—By Mr. FYSHE PALMER, from Reading and Leighton Buzzard, in favour of the Factories Bill:—By Lord GEORGE LENNOX, from Wisborough Green, Sussex, for a more equitable mode of Apportioning Labours among the Occupiers of Land; and for Levying a Rate upon those refusing to find Employment for their due proportion of Labourers:—By Mr. CHAPMAN, from Bally-James-Duff, against the New System of Education in Ireland.

GRAVESEND PIER.
Mr. Calvertpresented a Petition from the shipowners and others interested in the free navigation of the river Thames, against the Gravesend Pier Bill. The petitioners complained of the great injury which would arise to the navigation by the erection of the pier, which was proposed to extend 215 feet into the bed of the river, and that a great injustice would be done to the watermen of Gravesend, 1,200 of whom would be thrown out of employment. The petitioners concluded by praying that the Bill might not pass into a law.
Laid on the Table.
The Order of the Day for the third reading of this Bill having been read,
Mr. Hodgesmoved, that the Bill be now read a third time. He supported the Bill, as a great convenience to the public, who, in a short space of time, would have the pier free from all tolls. With respect to the alleged injury to the navigation of the river, he could only say, that the plan had been investigated by the officers of the Board of Admiralty, the Custom House, Trinity House, and the Corporation of the city of London, and the select Committee had been informed by those several officers that the plan was neither objectionable, nor could any inconvenience arise from it. The inconvenience of the present pier was sufficiently proved by the fact that 40,000 persons had landed at a temporary pier at Northfleet, one mile from Gravesend, during the last year. He begged hon. Members to reflect that Gravesend was the Brighton of the lower orders of the metropolis, of whom 120,000 visited it during the last year, and, therefore, the subject was well worthy the consideration of the House.
Sir Byam Martinobjected to the Bill, under the conviction that the navigation of the river would be injured, for he knew that erections of this description tended
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much to create dangerous shoals. He should, therefore, move, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a third time this day six months.
Sir Robert Inglissaid, he had some reason to believe the hon. and gallant Admiral's remark was correct, and, therefore, he felt bound to support the Amendment.
Mr. Hodgesobserved, that the gallant Admiral's objection, would, in this instance, be obviated by the manner in which the work in question would be constructed.
Mr. Briscoesupported the Bill. He had been on the Committee, and, he considered the intended pier of so much importance to the people who resorted to Gravesend from town, that he would give the Bill his fullest concurrence.
Mr. Wilksconcurred in what had been advanced in support of the Bill. The public would by it be relieved from the exorbitant demands of the Gravesend watermen for landing passengers, although, he considered, that the Bill ought not to compel persons who did not land at the jetty to pay the dues for the pier.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that unless a provision was introduced into the Bill, to give the public the option of choosing their landing place, he should support the Amendment.
Mr. Hodgessaid, the payment of the pier dues would be only compulsory on those who passed from steam vessels, regularly employed in the conveyance of passengers. There was no such obligation on other vessels.
Mr. Huntsaid, it appeared from the hon. Member's statement, that those who travelled by hired vessels, were to pay the pier dues while those who sailed in their own were to be exempt. This was hardly fair, particularly when it was said it would throw several hundred watermen out of employment, whose charge for landing passengers was now 4d., while the pier dues were 3d., and this it seemed was to be paid whether they used the pier or not. A division took place on the Amendment: Ayes 26; Noes 41—Majority 15.
The Bill read a third time.
Two clauses having been added on the Motion of Mr. Hodges by way of rider,
Mr. Humethen moved an Amendment on one of the clauses, to the effect that passengers might have the option of landing either above or below the pier without

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being liable to the dues, which ought only to be payable by those actually making use of the pier.
The House divided on the Amendment; Ayes 45; Noes 21—Majority 24.
The Bill, with the Amendment, passed.

MR. HUTCHINSON'S CLAIMS.
Mr. William Broughammoved for a Select Committee to take into consideration the claim of Mr. Bury Hutchinson on the East-India Company. The hon. Member said, this was one of those cases in which a private individual with the knowledge and concurrence of the Indian Government, made a loan to one of the native princes of that country. The uncle of the petitioner, Mr. John Hutchinson, in 1784, when the Rajah of Travancore was under considerable pecuniary embarrassments, lent him a sum of money, to enable him to fulfil certain engagements into which he had entered with the East-India Company. That loan, however, was made with the concurrence and assent of the then Governor General, and had subsequently, been sanctioned by succeeding Governors General. The loan also was made before the passing of the 37th of George 3rd, which prohibited all private loans to the native princes of India. Therefore, the transaction was entirely free from any imputation of illegality, the loan having been made in 1784, and that Act not having passed till 1797. Up to the year 1795, no portion of the nine lacs of rupees, which was the amount of Mr. Hutchinson's loan, had been repaid. In that year, however, the government of India paid to Mr. Hutchinson, four lacs out of certain balances that were due from them to the Rajah. This was clearly, sufficient to show that Mr. Hutchinson's debt had been recognized by the East India Company. In the year 1797, Mr. Hutchinson died, and shortly after the Rajah died too, being succeeded by his nephew. Under these circumstances, it became necessary, that an inquiry should be made into the conditions of the loan, in order that it might be seen whether it was advisable that the Rajah's territory should be taxed for its payment. For this purpose certain persons were appointed on behalf of the Rajah, and a gentleman was appointed on the part of Mr. Hutchinson's brother, in whom the property of the loan vested on the death of Mr. Hutchinson. These
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gentlemen reported that there remained due to Mr. Hutchinson 490,000 rupees—another corroboration of the correctness of the original loan of nine lacs. Between the year 1795 and 1800, a part of the debt, to nearly the amount of three lacs, was paid off; so that here was a third acknowledgment of the legality of the debt. In consequence of two lacs still being owing, Mr. Hutchinson sent a remonstrance to the Indian government, which induced the Marquis of Wellesley, then Governor General, to cause an inquiry to be made, the result of which was, that in 1804, the original debt was fully recognized, and it was stated that seven lacs, out of the nine, had been paid. This fully corresponded with Mr. Hutchinson's demand, and the Marquis of Wellesley consequently instructed the Resident at Travancore to assist Mr. Hutchinson in recovering the remainder. After this, no more difficulty was apprehended, but, it appeared, however, that the Company, by its private direction to the Resident, undermined the intentions of the Governor General, and Mr. Hutchinson sought in vain for his money from 1804 to 1806. In that year another inquiry took place, but again the Company interfered to prevent the payment. Lord Minto then took the matter up, but in September 1808, the Directors of the East-India Company wrote a letter, prohibiting the Rajah and and the Resident from recognizing the debt, by which a complete extinguisher was put on Mr. Hutchinson's claim. From the year 1809 to 1824, Mr. Hutchinson wearied the Company with letter on letter, application on application, and remonstrance on remonstrance, entreating them, at least, to explain why they objected to the order of their own Governor General. The Company's only answer, however, was, that they had not obtained a satisfactory account from Travancore; and yet during this very time, the revenues of Travancore were in the hands of the East-India Company, owing to the Rajah's tribute to them being in arrear. The revenue of Travancore amounted to thirty lacs a year; out of this the Company paid themselves, and set apart a portion for the maintenance of the young Rajah; after which there were twenty lacs remaining for the liquidation of the debts of the state; and yet, in spite of this, Mr. Hutchinson's claim still remained unpaid. In 1824 Mr. Hutchinson applied to the Board of Con-

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trol, which made a report thereon; and the consequence was, that the Company sent a despatch to India, recommending that their own prohibitory edict of 1808 should be repealed, and that Mr. Hutchinson should be allowed to recover. The Company, however, took care to accompany this despatch with such instructions to their resident as rendered it impossible for Mr. Hutchinson to obtain payment; for in that despatch they spoke of his demand as a pretended debt, and forbade their Resident to afford any assistance. It was, therefore, not possible for Mr. Hutchinson to obtain justice on such instructions as those? It very naturally was convenient to the Rajah not to admit the debt; and there was a direct inducement held out to him to say, "I know nothing of it, except that it is a pretended debt, and entirely without foundation." These, were the short circumstances of the case; and, he thought they were fully borne out by the documents he held in his hand, and, he therefore, begged leave to move that they be referred to a Select Committee.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonsaid, he had last Session presented a petition from Mr. Hutchinson on the subject of this claim, and, he was, therefore, well able to say that the statement of the hon. and learned Member, was fully borne out by the facts of the case, as founded in documents which had been exhibited to him. It was also most important that the question should be taken into consideration without delay, as it rested in a great degree on the testimony of persons now living, but who were of a very great age, he, therefore, begged leave to second the Motion.
Sir John Malcolmsaid, he had no intention to oppose this petition, but he rose to protest against the mode in which it was desired to introduce it. He had little further knowledge of the merits of Mr. Hutchinson's claim, than what had been just now stated by the hon. and learned Member by whom the case was opened, and from that, there certainly appeared grounds for investigation; but the question was, should a claim from India, relative to a large money concern, which took place forty-seven years ago, between a Company's servant and the Rajah of Travancore, be sent to a Committee up stairs, without even the notice of the Indian minister, or any one responsible for the good administration of Indian affairs? A bill, not unlike the present, relative to a concern of
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more than fifty years' date (he alluded to the loan to the Rajah of Nozeed) was introduced in a similar manner to this House, and was now in progress through the House of Lords. If this course of proceeding was permitted, the House would have five hundred claims, of the same character to investigate, and the result might be as injurious to the finances as to the reputation of the Indian government. On this ground he entreated the attention of Ministers to the subject, and the proceedings were important, because the information in the hands of Government, connected with the Indian records could alone enable the House to judge whether a Committee should be granted or not. Without this, such Committees would be very incompetent to the task assigned them, and they could not have the means of deciding the merits of complicated concerns of such remote dates, and the items of which embraced such a variety of matter; nor, generally speaking, could they have that knowledge which was necessary to decide upon such questions. He did not impugn their desire to do justice; but the mode in which such petitions from a remote country like India, were investigated in a Committee, was not, in his opinion the best, for doing justice to both parties. In presenting such claims to the attention of the House, the person intrusted with them naturally tried to impress the House with a favourable opinion of their merits. In the present instance, it was asserted, by the hon. and learned Member, that Mr. Bury Hutchinson's loan to the Rajah was sanctioned, on its occurrence, by the Governor General, but he had seen no proof of that, and he had some reason to believe, that the first notice taken of it was by Mr. Duncan, the Governor of Bombay, eleven years after the money was said to have been advanced. What other authorities had sanctioned it, he had no means of knowing, but it was assumed that the Court of Directors had acted throughout in an unjust and oppressive manner, and, it was declared, they had carried on a private correspondence with the Resident at Travancore, which, if proved, amounted to a plot against the claimant. He never could believe, they had been guilty of such acts, although, he begged to state, that he was fully convinced the hon. and learned Member, considered himself authorized to make the statement from the documents

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which had been laid before him. The fact, however, could not be so, for the Residents at native courts, had no means of corresponding directly with the Court of Directors, all their communications went through the Governors of the different presidencies to which they were attached. Again the hon. and learned Member, had laid much stress upon the fact of the money having been lent before the 37th of George the 3rd which prohibited such transactions, but, it must be remembered, that the Company in the exercise of their sovereign authority in India, had directed their servants not to make loans to the native princes long before 1784, when this money was advanced.
Sir Charles Forbessaid, that ever since he had first heard of this case, he had always thought, that, of all the cruel acts of the government of India, this was one of the worst. It so happened, that he had been in India from almost the very commencement of this transaction, or at least as far back as forty-three years; so that he might take it upon himself to say, that he knew something about the matter. It was quite true, that the loan made by Mr. Hutchinson to the Rajah was a benefit to the East-India Company; and the arrear of tribute was entirely owing to the Company's own conduct; for, in the first instance, they agreed to take the Rajah's subsidy in pepper; but when Buonaparte interfered with the trade of all Europe, the Company became frightened, and sent out orders that no more pepper should be taken, but money in its place. The Rajah's answer to this was, "I cannot pay in money, for I have none;" and thus a large arrear of subsidy became due, which ultimately led to the Company taking possession of his territory. With respect to what had fallen from his hon. and gallant friend, he should be extremely glad if Ministers would give themselves the trouble to look into this case; and he could affirm, moreover, that nothing was more desired by Mr. Hutchinson than that its merits should be sifted by competent men of business. His hon. and gallant friend did not make a very handsome argument for the Court of Directors, when he said, that nothing could be more inconvenient than for that House to give its sanction to the admission of such claims as this. Why, such a declaration might be set up by any man who refused to pay his just debts. But with respect to this particular case, he would
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venture to say, that there never was one which more strongly called for the interference of Parliament; for Mr. Hutchinson now had no other means by which he could obtain justice. It should be remembered also, that this Rajah was once an independent prince, and would still, probably, have continued so, if he had not unfortunately applied to the East-India Company for protection against Tippoo Sahib. The Company prevented that Sultan from devouring the Rajah, in order that they might feast upon him themselves. It was an actual fact, that, though they withdrew the troops granted for his protection, they refused to give up one single farthing of the subsidy. The revenues of Travancore amounted to forty lacs of rupees: the expenses of the State, including the subsidy, to thirty-seven; so that there were three lacs to spare, out of which Mr. Hutchinson might be paid. But, in addition to this, the debt was contracted before the Rajah's debt to the Indian government, and, therefore, it clearly had a claim to prior settlement. No doubt, as his hon. and gallant friend had observed, these claims were very inconvenient; and he remembered that Mr. Canning, when he thought that he was going out as Governor General, wanted to carry an Act in his pocket to bar all claims whatever. He (Sir Charles Forbes), however, would sit down, saying, that when a man could get redress no where else, it was the peculiar business of that House to afford it him.
Mr. William Broughamsaid, the hon. and gallant Officer had told the House, that if they entertained the case before them, it would open the door to many other applications of a similar character; he, therefore, wished to remark, that he had no doubt each case would be judged of according to its individual merits; and if another transaction as strong as the present should be introduced to their notice, all he could say was, he should be ready to advocate an inquiry into its circumstances.
Sir John Malcolmbegged, in explanation, to be permitted to say, that he had never made use of the word "inconvenient," nor did at all wish to discourage individuals from prosecuting what they considered fair claims. As for his having not made a very good argument in favour of the Court of Directors, as alluded to by his hon. friend, the member for Malmes-

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bury, all he meant to convey by his statement was, his anxiety to see justice done them, by having such claims properly investigated; and he must again express his surprise there was no Member connected with the Indian government present to take a part in the proceedings.
Mr. Humesaid, he felt himself compelled to reiterate the complaint of the hon. and gallant Member. It was quite an anomaly in the proceedings of the House, that, when a petition of so much importance as this of Mr. Bury Hutchinson was brought forward, there should be no one on the part of Government competent to give any explanation. It certainly plainly showed, that one-half, at least, of the Members of the India Board might be dispensed with. He did not know whether there could be any objection to the present appointment of a Committee, and he should wish to be informed what was the intention of Government with respect to other petitioners who had similar claims to the one in question to bring forward?
Lord Althorpobserved, that he was not aware that there could be any objection to the present Motion being agreed to. As to the question of his hon. friend, he could, at present, give no answer to it.
The Motion agreed to, and Committee appointed.

EXCHEQUER COURT (SCOTLAND).
The Lord Advocatemoved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Scotch Courts Compensation Bill.
Mr. Goulburnwished that the Committee might be deferred, as there were so few Members present to take a part in the proceedings.
Mr. Dawsonobjected to a Motion of so much importance as the present, which gave away a sum of 2,000 l. per annum of the public money, being brought forward when the House was so thinly attended. He believed there were not more than twenty-two members then present, although there was a much greater number drawn from curiosity to an adjoining spot, and who, no doubt, would readily attend, on a message being sent to them from the Treasury benches. He deprecated this system of voting upon questions, without hearing any portion of the argument urged against them. He put it ad verecundiam to the shame and the sense of decency of the learned Lord, whether this measure for granting 2,000 l. to Mr. Abercromby,
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out of the public money, after serving only two years as Chief Baron of the Exchequer—one of the grossest jobs which ever came before Parliament—was fit for discussion in such a House?
Mr. Humeconcurred in all that had been said by the right hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House, with reference to the manner of voting; but he was surprised to hear that right hon. Gentleman complain of it, as it was no novelty: and he must have known that a similar reprehensible system prevailed when he was connected with the Treasury. At the same time, he could not but admire the new-born ardour of the right hon. Gentleman in the cause of economy. He (Mr. Hume) had formerly objected to the measure; but, after attending to the arguments addressed to the Committee, he was now equally ready to support it; and he hoped the learned Lord would go into his explanation, to show, to the satisfaction of the House and the country, that the measure would be beneficial to the public, without injuring the cause of justice. It might be a job, certainly, but it was to get rid of a much greater job of the Right hon. Gentleman, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, and his colleagues, who gave Mr. Abercromby 4,000 l. per annum for life, for doing almost nothing.
Mr. John Campbell: So far from the country losing 2,000 l. a-year, as the right hon. Gentleman, the member for Harwich (Mr. Dawson) seemed to insinuate, by this Bill, the fact was, the public would gain that sum, for Mr. Abercromby was at present receiving 4,000 l. a-year.
Sir Chares Forbessaid, he would take that opportunity to observe, that Government were hound, when they increased the duties of the Judges of the Court of Session, to make an increase in their salaries. The allowances to the English Judges had been increased, but the same justice was not dealt out to the Scotch. He was sure they performed equally as onerous duties; and he, therefore, exhorted the Scotch Members to stand up for their country, and not suffer the injustice to continue.
Mr. Dawsonfelt very much surprised at the course pursued by the hon. member for Middlesex, who had observed, that he had been convinced in the Committee, that the amount of 2,000 l. a-year ought to be given to Mr. Abercromby. The

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proceedings in that Committee had had a very different effect upon him. But the question now was with respect to the propriety of voting money in so thin a House. In former days, the hon. Member would have made an immense outcry at the very proposition; but he appeared now to have overcome all his scruples, and was ready to support anything Ministers proposed. There might have been some excuse for such a course when the Reform Bill was in the House; but that measure had now passed, and it seemed to have carried the hon. Member's economy with it; for he was now earnest in upholding all the jobs of Government.
Mr. Humesaid, it had already been shown to every hon. Member in the House, that this, at all events, was but a little job, rendered necessary by the great job of the right hon. Member and his friends. With regard to the reflections of the right hon. Member as to his conduct, considering the quarter from whence they proceeded, he trusted the House would not expect him to notice them.
Mr. Dixonsaid, after all, he thought the 2,000 l. a-year might have been saved by appointing Mr. Abercromby to some other office; for a man of his distinguished talent was equal to any other duties in the public service.
The House in Committee.
The Lord Advocatesaid, he had listened with surprise to the objections made to this Bill:—First, that it was an extravagant and improvident waste of the public money; and secondly, that it was a job. With respect to the first, it was a grant which could not be made except on a contingency of saving at least double the amount; and as to its being a job, it was an extraordinary job which exchanged a sinbcure salary of 4,000 l. for a sinecure salary of 2,000 l. The principle of the Bill was, that the Court of Exchequer in Scotland should be prospectively abolished, because there was no business in that Court; and if so, the House had a right to abolish it, but not to take away the salary of those who held offices in it for life. The Bill, therefore, made a tender of these annuities as a consideration for the voluntary surrender of the salaries, and thus effected an immediate reduction. When a superior Judge received a life-interest, was it consistent with justice to take that interest from him? All that the Legislature had ever presumed to do was,
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to declare it should not be renewed at the expiration of the existing life. If any Gentleman objected to the amount of the bribe, he might propose its reduction hereafter; but he believed many would think it not enough. It was perfectly within the power of the learned personages of the Court not to take the hint offered to them by the Bill, and refuse to retire: he (the Lord Advocate) should not blame them. How any person could consider this arrangement as an improvident grant of the public money, or as a job, which bought off 4,000 l. by 2,000 l., he was at a loss to conceive. He looked upon it as a device skilfully contrived to economize the public money, and to accelerate the diminution of expenditure. The learned Lord then moved his Resolution for granting to the Lord Chief Baron the sum of 2,000 l. per annum on the resignation of his office, 1,500 l. to such of the two other Barons as should first retire, and 600 l. to the Judge of the Court of Session, who should execute the duties of the Court of Exchequer, after their retirement.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that the learned Lord had defended this grant on the plea that Mr. Abercromby had been appointed to an office which had no duty attached to it. But the learned Lord and his colleagues had made no objection to that appointment; on the contrary, the present Lord Chancellor had declared that it was an appointment which did credit to the Government, and had applauded and approved it. But his (Mr. Goulburn's) objections were unanswered. It would have been better to transfer business to a Court that was little occupied, than to abolish it. But when the new Bankruptcy Court was established, why was not Mr. Abercromby appointed to the Chief Justiceship of that Court, which was placed on an equality with the other Judges, and which his experience as a Commissioner of Bankrupts, and as Chancery Barrister qualified him for? Instead of which, a pension of 2,000 l. a-year was to be given to him, which was a real loss to the country. Notice of this was given to the Gentlemen opposite at the time; but, notwithstanding their great zeal for economy, they refused to listen to the argument.
Lord Althorpsaid, there was a question of much greater importance than the saving of 2,000 l. in the appointment of a Judge, namely, whether the individual was qualified. The right hon. Gentleman

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must be aware, that when Mr. Abercromby was appointed Chief Baron, he asked whether it was intended to add any Nisi Prius business to the Court, because, if so, he was not competent to discharge its duties. Now, in the Bankruptcy Court, Nisi Prius business would come, and, therefore, by his own admission, Mr. Abercromby was not competent to preside in it. It had been said, that they (Ministers) had approved, when on the other side, of the appointment. Undoubtedly they thought it creditable to the Government to make such a selection. The present Bill would not preclude the appointment of Mr. Abercromby to any office for which he was competent, when his pension would merge in the salary. With regard to the hard terms which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dawson) had applied to this arrangement, he was so much in the habit of using strong terms, that they made but little impression. He could not see that the application of the term job, in its usual acceptation to this arrangement, was at all warranted; but, he supposed, in the right hon. Gentleman's understanding of it, it meant the saving to the public of 2,000 l. a-year.
Mr. Dawsonreplied. The noble Lord opposite had attacked his (Mr. Dawson's) phraseology; but he begged to say he should continue to use, with respect to public matters, such language, whether strong or mild, as nature dictated to him. Mr. Abercromby had it not in his power to urge that he had left, two years ago, a lucrative profession to accept this office, and it would, therefore, have been but right for an economical Whig Administration, as they called themselves, to have put it to the honour and feeling of Mr. Abercromby to give up the salary as well as the pension. At least, if they wished to abolish the Court of Exchequer in Scotland, they might have appointed him to the then vacant office of Chief Commissioner of the Bankruptcy Court. He did not hesitate to say this proposed compensation was a job; and the defence used, that Mr. Abercromby could not fill the last-named office because he was not competent to charge a Jury, was a mere quibble, because the Court of Exchequer, in which he had presided, was also a Jury Court. The noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Exchequer was perfectly callous to any proposition of retrenchment emanating from his side of the House:
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every suggestion emanating from that quarter he considered as originating in a faction. Mr. Abercromby was not more than fifty years of age, and, in the ordinary course of nature, might expect to hold his pension for twenty years. Here, therefore, was 40,000 l. of the public money disposed of, exclusive of interest, for two years' service in the Court of Exchequer. He regretted he had not the talents of the First Lord of the Admiralty for calculations of this kind. He remembered when the right hon. Bart. moved for a return of the sums received by the Members of the Privy Council, how ingeniously he heaped sum upon sum; if he would but indulge in the same calculations upon this case, he had no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman could show how much Mr. Abercromby had to receive for every time he put on his gown and wig at simple and compound interest. He had been accused of using strong language, but he had only followed the example of the right hon. Baronet, who had, upon that occasion, held up every Privy Councillor as a "bird of prey." He hoped Mr. Abercromby, by refusing the pension, would not allow such a name to be fixed upon him. After all, he had no scruple in repeating, that this was a job, as well as the Court of Bankruptcy itself, to which it was proposed to transfer Mr. Abercromby. He had opposed the establishment of that Court, and, therefore, he was glad to find its proceedings were about to come before the House, when an opportunity would be afforded to again discuss that subject.
Lord Althorp, in answer to the observation that the Government ought to have offered Mr. Abercromby another situation in the stead of that they sought to abolish, begged to say Mr. Abercromby was offered a situation much more lucrative than the proposed compensation, and which Mr. Abercromby refused.
Mr. Goulburncould easily imagine, that an individual who had filled a high judicial situation would not consent to accept a subordinate office, whatever might be the emoluments of that station. The Chief Commissionership of the Bankruptcy Court, one of equal rank with that from which he was to be removed, ought to have been offered to Mr. Abercromby.
Mr. Cutler Fergussonsaid, the only question before the Committee was, whether, in case it should be hereafter de-

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cided that the Court of Exchequer ought to be abolished, Mr. Abercromby should receive compensation. He would not enter now into any consideration of the propriety of abolishing his office; but, as Mr. Abercromby held it for life, and could not be removed from it but by his own default, the compensation of half his salary was not more than he could reasonably expect to obtain. As to this being a job, he did not see how the interest of Mr. Abercromby was advanced thereby. It was allowed he held an appointment which almost amounted to a sinecure, with 4,000 l. a-year, and he gave it up for a pension of 2,000 l. a-year; and, if it was indeed true, that the Court of Exchequer might be dispensed with, it was unfortunate that it was not discovered two years ago, when the Government appointed Mr. Abercromby to the office he now held. At the same time, be felt bound to say, that he thought the Government, relying upon the Report of the Committee of 1825, made the appointment, believing it would be useful to the public. He must take the opportunity to call the attention of the Committee to the present condition of the learned persons who filled the situation of Judges of the Supreme Court of Scotland. The salaries of these Judges had generally been raised when those of the Judges of England had been increased though not in so great a degree. In 1819, the salaries of the English Judges were increased; in 1820, so were those of the Scotch. The Act which so raised them recited, that it had been usual to raise the salaries of the Judges of the two countries at the same time; and so strong was the feeling of Parliament upon the subject, that it was provided in that Bill, that the increase in the salaries of the Scotch Judges should date back from the period when that of the English Judges took place. In 1825 the salaries of the English Judges were again raised, and the right hon. member for Tamworth, he trusted, would allow that it was in contemplation also to raise the salaries of the Scotch Judges, and that it was only delayed till certain alterations in the Scotch Court were effected. Two years afterwards, a Bill was brought in to regulate the business of the Court of Session, by which the number of Judges was reduced; subsequently its business was increased by the addition of that of the Consistorial and Admiralty Courts, which
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were suppressed; but the salaries of the Judges were not increased, although a Bill for that purpose was brought in. A period of five years had now elapsed, without justice having been done to those learned and meritorious individuals. He was certain, that, had the question related to the Judges of England, no such delay would have taken place. But the fact was, that the business of Scotland was not attended to in that House. The Judges of England had their salaries fixed, in 1825, at 5,500 l. a-year, a sum which had been more recently reduced to 5,000 l. He asked the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was unreasonable that the salaries of the Scotch Judges should be raised to half that sum? Their conduct had been most exemplary; for they had taken the additional duty thrown upon them with cheerfulness, and without offering a word about further remuneration; but surely that was only an additional reason to consider their case—he would not say with favour, for he wanted none—but with justice; and he trusted the noble Lord would give some intimation that it was his intention to render them justice. Such an intimation would give great satisfaction to all gentlemen of property in Scotland—to all interested in the administration of justice—to the whole people of that country. It should be recollected, that the emoluments which were made at the Bar, were far greater than those assigned to the Judges.
Sir Robert Peelhad no hesitation in saying that, had he remained in office, pursuant to the pledge given by the late Government, he should have felt it his duty to bring before the House of Commons a proposition for the increase of the salaries of the Scotch Judges. Indeed, a proposition to that effect had been made, but was withdrawn in consequence of the opposition it met with from several hon. Members, and the late Government had not an opportunity of again bringing it forward before their removal from office. He certainly did think that 2,000 l. a-year was not sufficient for the becoming maintenance of the judicial dignity in Scotland. The public were interested in the proper maintenance of these dignities, and that the proper forms of ceremony should be sustained, not to gratify personal vanity but to raise a proper respect for the high station. Whenever the proposition might

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be brought forward, it should have his warmest support. It was manifest that there was nothing like justice in granting a retiring Chief Baron, who had had nothing to do, 2,000 l. per annum, and that 2,000 l. was to be considered sufficient remuneration for a Judge actively discharging the high duties of his office.
Mr. Humeconcurred in the sentiment that the Scotch Judges and their present condition were well deserving of the attention of the Government. But he thought if there was one class of men in England who were overpaid it was the Judges of the land, of whom the puisne Judges received more than the salary of the President of the United States of America, while the Chief Justice received upwards of 10,000 l. per annum. These salaries ought to be decreased, and those of the Scotch Judges increased: for it was monstrous that a Master in Chancery should have above 3,000 l. per annum, a Register of Deeds in Ireland 1,500 l. per annum, while the Scotch Judges had but 2,000 l. a-year.
Sir Willam Raesaid, that he would never have introduced the measure which it had been his duty to promote two years ago, by which offices in Scotland to the amount of 22,000 l. per annum were abolished, and the duties of the Scotch Judges increased, had it not been in the anticipation of the fulfilment of the pledge that they should be proportionably compensated. The proposed compensation to Mr. Abercromby for the loss of a situation in which he had undoubtedly a vested right, he (Sir William Rae) should feel it his duty to support.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonsaid, the hon. member for Middlesex had compared the Judge's salaries with that of the President of the United States, and had said they were much over-paid. But the comparison was of no use, unless it was considered whether proper persons to perform the duties could be had for less money, and, he apprehended that was not the case even in England, and in Scotland it was notorious no first rate advocate would give up his practice at the Bar for the sake of a Judgeship.
Mr. Stricklandsaid, that taking the relative population of England and Scotland the latter was not entitled to more than three Judges, in proportion to the number of people in both countries, whereas there was thirteen in the Court of Session, and
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three in the Court of Exchequer. Whenever therefore, they again heard of an increase of the salaries of the Scotch Judges, he hoped it would be taken as an earnest that their numbers were to be reduced.
Sir George Clerksaid, that the duties imposed on the Judges of the Court of Session were as great as those imposed on the Judges of any other Court; and, considering the high station they filled, the salaries were inadequate to support these gentlemen with becoming dignity. In Scotland a general feeling prevailed that their salaries ought to be advanced in a similar proportion to that recently allowed to the English Judges.
Mr. Huntsaid, he was heartily opposed to this sum of 2,000 l. being taken out of the pockets of the people, who he was sure would be indignant at the attempt. He should, therefore, oppose the grant. It was a strange system of retrenchment, to give a sum of 2,000 l. as a retiring allowance to a Judge who for two years had held a sinecure, while the active Judges only received the same sum. The people would think so, if it came to their knowledge, which he doubted, for he was certain a portion of the public Press would not publish much of that which fell from him and other hon. Members sitting on his side of the House. He would move that the amount of the proposed compensation should be reduced form 2,000 l. to 1,000 l.
Mr. John Campbellhad heard no argument used against the Resolution before the House. Mr. Abercromby had consented to receive half the salary as a retiring compensation, and he saw no reason to object to it, particularly when Mr. Jervis, Mr. Cashberd, and the other Welsh Judges had received the full retiring allowance.
The Attorney Generalconsidered that no reasonable objection had been or could be offered to the Resolution before the House. He must corroborate the statement of his hon. and learned friend who had just spoken with respect to the Welsh Judges, and he begged to mention two exceptions only, Mr. Clarke and Mr. Serjeant Goulburn, who had not received the retiring allowance, because both those gentlemen had accepted the office after it was in contemplation to abolish the Welsh Judgeships, a fact which was communicated to them, and also that they would not be entitled to retiring compensation. In addition to the offer of the situation of

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Accountant General of the Court of Chancery, alluded to by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a communication had taken place with respect to the Court of Bankruptcy, which was declined by Mr. Abercromby, who alleged he did not feel himself competent to discharge the duties of a Jury Court.
The Resolutions agreed to, the House resumed.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the LORD CHANCELLOR, from the Gentry, Yeomanry, and others of Thorney, in the Isle of Ely; Noblemen, Gentlemen, Freeholders, Justices of the Peace, Commissioners of Supply, Heritors, and others of the County of Roxburgh; Heritors and Householders of Cromarty, Inhabitants of Wells, Great Driffield, Mansfield, Neelston, Lockwennock, and Wigton. By the Earl of CAMPERDOWN, from the Inhabitants of Kelsyth, Colessie, and Balmerino. By the Earl of ALBEMARLE, from the Inhabitants of Misterton; and by the Marquis of DOWNSHIRE, from the Inhabitants of Drumgath, in favour of Reform:—By the Duke of RUTLAND, from the Mayor and Corporation of Leicester, calling on the House, before they passed any Reform Bill, to give it a calm and dispassionate consideration; and from the Inhabitants of Kentford, Denham, Dalham, Ashley, Gazelly, and Leicester; and by the Earl of KINNOUL from the Presbytery of Dunblane and Auchterarder, against the New Plan of Education in Ireland:—By the Earl of RADNOR, from the Operative Cotton Spinners of Carlisle, in favour of the Bill for Limiting the Hours of Labour in Factories.

BOROUGH OF ARUNDEL.
Lord Wynfordpresented a Petition from the Members of the Corporation of Arundel, to which he was anxious to call the attention of their Lordships. Their Lordships were aware that Commissioners had been appointed to regulate the limits of boroughs in certain cases. The petitioners complained of the arrangement of those Commissioners by which the town of Little Hampton was included in, and was henceforth to form a part of, the borough of Arundel, so that the inhabitants of the former were to have equal right of voting with those of the latter; and the ground on which they rested their objection was, that the greater part of Little Hampton being the property of a Peer of the realm, the voters from it would turn the whole district into a close borough. He (Lord Wynford) was no enemy to what were called close boroughs, but he would say, that if they were abolished on the one side, they ought to be so equally on the other. The petitioners stated, that there were twenty places much nearer to Arundel than Little Hampton, and, from situation and other causes, equally entitled to share in its franchise; but all these the Commissioners had passed over, and gone four miles out of their way to include that place. In these places the noble Duke in question had no property, but nearly the whole of the town and neighbourhood of Little Hampton was his; so that he would have an overwhelming influence, if that town were included in the borough. So strongly did he (Lord Wynford) feel the impropriety of this decision of the Commissioners—so much was he impressed with the facts stated in the petition, and other facts which had come to his knowledge on this subject—that he now gave notice, that if the Reform Bill should be read a second time, he would on Tuesday next move, that before it proceeded any further, the Reports of those Commissioners be referred to a Committee, with power to examine as to the grounds of their decision, in order that equal justice might be done to boroughs in the south as well as in the north; and to see that no unfair distinction was made between Whig and Tory influence.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that, when the Bill should be in Committee, he thought he should be able to satisfy the noble and learned Lord, that the decision of the Commissioners in unit-

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ing Little Hampton with Arundel would not have the effect which he anticipated. In the noble and learned Lord's anxiety to prevent what he seemed to fear would be the overwhelming influence of a Peer in Parliament in the borough as it was proposed to be in future constituted, he had wholly overlooked the sort of influence exercised in the borough by those very parties from whom the petition came. This petition was from the Corporation, who were no doubt extremely unwilling to lose the power and influence which they now possessed in the return of the Members for the borough. The persons who got up the petition were seven resident gentlemen belonging to the Corporation, who felt that, if this Bill should pass, the influence which they now possessed would be shared amongst the inhabitants of Little Hampton and Arundel generally. They were, therefore, very naturally opposed to any extension of the franchise either to Little Hampton or to any other place. For his own part, if it could be made apparent that any arrangement as to the franchise would have the effect of making the place a close borough, he would oppose it. He pledged himself, and he was sure his noble colleagues would give him credit for the statement, that he would not be satisfied to have one close borough left. He would, therefore, not stop short at the number of fifty-six in schedule A, but would go on to sixty or sixty-three, if that number of close boroughs should be shown to exist. He could by no means believe that the objection to the extension of the franchise to Little Hampton was well founded. That place was the port of Arundel. The whole trade of the latter place was carried on through it, and it was, therefore, very natural that the Commissioners should make a selection of a place so intimately connected with the borough, to be included in the extension of its franchise. But it was said, that the town of Little Hampton was the property of a noble Duke (the Duke of Norfolk). It was not exclusively his property. It was true, that the noble Duke was owner of many of the houses there, but they were let on long building leases, so that the noble Duke could not possess that influence which the noble and learned Lord seemed to apprehend. However, when they should come to the question as to that borough in the Committee, if the noble and learned Lord should make out a
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case against the borough as one which would still be under undue influence, and would move that it be transferred to schedule A, he would pledge himself to second the motion.
Lord Wynfordsaid, he was not sufficiently acquainted with the place to know whether the noble Duke was correct or not in his statement as to the influence of those whom he described as the resident electors; but he thought that all who knew the borough of Arundel were aware that the influence in the return of its Members did not belong to the Corporation, but to a very different party. The noble Duke had not, in his opinion, given anything like a satisfactory answer to the objection—that the town of Little Hampton, which was distant four miles from Arundel, should be selected as a proper place for the extension of the franchise of the borough, while twenty places of equal importance, which were much nearer, were overlooked. The noble Duke had said, that the land belonging to the Duke of Norfolk was let out on building leases. It was a fact, that leases of seventy years were given, but it was also a fact that the noble Duke in question was also the owner of much uncovered ground there, by building on which he might so extend his influence as to overwhelm all the other voters. But he would ask, when the noble Duke talked of long building leases having been granted, whether it was not a fact that there was a clause in each of those leases by which the transfer of them was prohibited, unless with the consent of the noble owner of the soil? If that were the case, could it be denied for a moment that the noble Duke would, by this extension of the franchise to Little Hampton, become possessed of such an overwhelming influence as would give him entire dominion over the return for the borough? He owned he was not convinced of the fitness of the extension of the franchise to this port by what had fallen from the noble Duke. Little Hampton, it seemed, was the port of Arundel, and the site of its Custom-house; but what necessary connexion was there between the owners of ships and the franchise? Others, who resided nearer to Arundel, were as much entitled to the franchise as the ship-owners of the port of Little Hampton; and, as to the Custom-house, he saw no claim on that ground, for no Custom-house officer could vote at all. On the whole, he must say, he had heard nothing

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from the noble Duke which at all altered his opinion. He had waited with impatience to hear some explanation on the subject from the noble Duke, but he had heard nothing which satisfied him.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, he would not follow the noble and learned Lord into this rather irregular conversation, but would content himself with repeating, that, if the noble and learned Lord should be of opinion that the borough would be under undue influence, let him move that it be placed in schedule A, and he would support the motion.
Lord Wynfordwould not adopt the suggestion of the noble Duke, by moving that the borough be placed in schedule A. He thought the only fair and impartial course would be to draw a circle round the borough, and let all places within that circle be equally included. This would be a much more impartial course than that of selecting a town four miles off, and leaving the intermediate places excluded.
The Earl of Falmouthsaid, that he had hitherto remained silent on this subject, but he could not refrain from offering a few words, to express his astonishment at the great change which the opinions of the noble Duke had undergone within a short time on this important question of Reform. He remembered well, that when, in the year 1829, a noble Earl (the Earl of Winchilsea), indignant at the decision of Parliament with respect to the Catholic Question, had declared himself a Reformer, the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond), who agreed with the noble Earl on the subject of the Catholic Question, took care not to have it inferred, that, because he concurred with the noble Earl in the one point, he also agreed with him in the other, and he distinctly disclaimed being considered as a Reformer. Then came the companion of the Catholic Relief Bill—the bill for disfranchising the 40 s. freeholders in Ireland—and he well remembered the earnestness with which the noble Duke denounced that measure. He also remembered the protest which the noble Duke had aftewards placed on the Journals, and that it was, if possible, still stronger in its denunciation of the principle of the disfranchising bill than the opinions he expressed in his speech on that occasion. He would not now do more than invite the attention of their
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Lordships to the speech and the protest of the noble Duke on that occasion, and to contrast them with the new-born zeal which he now evinced on the question of Reform. He did not mean to deny the sincerity of the opinions which the noble Duke now avowed, but, having noticed that important change which had taken place in them within so short a time, he could not refrain from inviting the attention of their Lordships to the great contrast between the noble Duke's opinions as to disfranchisement then and at the present time.
The Duke of Richmondregretted that the noble Earl had not deferred these remarks on his conduct, until a time, when, according to the forms of the House, he could rise to defend himself. After having already risen twice on the same question, he could not now, without the indulgence of their Lordships, proceed to make those observations which the remarks of the noble Earl called for. If, however, their Lordships gave him permission, he would address himself to what he must consider a most unjustifiable attack upon him. The noble Earl had charged him with having changed his opinion on the question of Reform. If he were only now a Reformer never having been so before, he might use the language which many of their Lordships had addressed to the House, and defend himself by stating that the times had changed, and that that which might not have been necessary some time ago was now become essential. If he looked to the speeches of those who were never before Reformers, but who now wished to be thought so to some extent, he should find it admitted by the great majority that the time was now arrived when some general measure of Reform was necessary. As to the circumstances that took place at the period to which the noble Earl (the Earl of Falmouth) had alluded, he begged leave to remind their Lordships that a noble Earl (the Earl of Winchilsea) had declared that the Catholic Bill having been passed, he considered a Reform of Parliament necessary. The noble Earl said, that he would even go further, and if a motion were made that the right rev. the Bench of Bishops should no longer have a seat in that House, he would support it. Hearing these strong sentiments from the noble Earl, he had then stated, that, however much he concurred with the noble Earl on the subject

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of the Catholic Question, nothing should induce him to vote for Reform, because the House of Commons had passed the Catholic Bill. He had not the paper by him in which his opinions on that occasion were stated, for he certainly had not expected to be called on his legs in this manner to defend himself. The noble Lords opposite fancied that their opponents had been too tame yesterday, and, acting on the forbearance shown, they now came forward with charges of inconsistency. It was objected to him that he had opposed the disfranchisement of the 40 s. freeholders in Ireland. He had so; but what then? If he were inconsistent in having then opposed disfranchisement, and in supporting it now, what became of those noble Lords on the opposite side who voted for that measure, and who now opposed this Bill? Why was disfranchisement to be supported then, and to be opposed now? Why was the principle of vested rights to be held sacred when it applied to St. Mawe's, and Gatton, and Old Sarum, and to be set at nought when it affected the franchises of 250,000 freeholders? He would beg to call the recollection of their Lordships to what he had said on the occasion of the disfranchisement of the 40 s. freeholders. It was true, that he had strenuously opposed that measure; but he said that, if that bill passed, a year would not elapse without some general measure of Reform being called for. He begged to deny that he was inconsistent in having opposed that measure, and in supporting the present, for he defied the noble Earl—he defied any man—to say that he ever spoke against Reform. On the contrary, since he had a seat in Parliament, it was to him a matter of surprise how any man could get up and defend the system of nomination boroughs.
The Earl of Falmouthwished merely to observe, in reply to the noble Duke's remark with regard to the 40 s. freeholders, that he had not voted on that occasion to which the noble Duke had alluded, and, therefore, was free from any charge of inconsistency on that head, however the noble Duke himself might be affected by the charge.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, that, when he saw the noble Duke with whom he had acted in opposing the 40 s. Freeholder Disfranchisement Bill, which he had ever considered as one of the grossest spo-
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liations that had ever been attempted—when he saw that noble Duke now defending his consistency in supporting another attempt at spoliation, he wished to ask was there not a great difference in the two cases? He would ask him whether the passing of the Catholic Relief Bill was not supported on the understanding that it was to be accompanied, or followed, immediately by the 40 s. Freeholder Disfranchisement Bill? and was not the Catholic Bill considered, at the time, to be a full compensation for any loss which might be sustained by the disfranchisement measure? Did the 40 s. freeholders themselves complain of the measure as an act of injustice, or rather did they not gladly receive the one as a compensation for the other? But let him ask the noble Duke, did any thing like the same circumstances exist with respect to those whom it was now proposed to disfranchise? If he saw the expediency of the proposed measure, he might concur in it; but no expediency could justify such a robbery as had then been committed. Such was, in effect, the language of the noble Duke, in his address to the House on that occasion; but, in the protest which the noble Duke had entered upon the journals, his language was still stronger. Indeed, to such a length did the noble Duke carry his opinion about the invasion of vested rights in that protest, that, though he (the noble Marquis) had come down to the House for the purpose of joining in it, he found it went to such a length in that respect, that even he, concurring as he did in many of the noble Duke's objections to the measure, could not consent to affix his name to it. But the noble Duke, who was so tender with respect to the franchise of the 40 s. freeholder had no such scruples with respect to the franchises of the freemen of Arundel and other boroughs, which, without mercy, he would consign to schedule A. He had no doubt of the noble Duke's sincerity in the opinions he now entertained, for he presumed he would not be sitting where he was if he did not enter cordially into the opinions of his colleagues; but he owned he should like to hear from the noble Duke the grounds of the distinction which he now made between the Irish 40 s. freeholders and the freemen of the borough of Arundel. It was singular that the noble Duke should have so different an opinion on that subject which all his colleagues had supported.

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However noble Lords might have changed their opinions on the principle of expediency, he had not changed his, and he could not express too strongly his feelings in favour of claims which, it appeared, the noble Duke was prepared to throw overboard.
The Marquis of Cleveland: My Lords, after what has fallen from some of the noble Lords opposite, and from my noble friend near me, in this conversation—for I cannot call it discussion—I cannot allow the subject to drop without adding a few words. As the subject of nomination boroughs has been mentioned, I may say that there are few individuals who have had a greater interest in that description of borough than he who now has the honour to address your Lordships. My interests in such boroughs has been as great as those of any other noble Lord, and greater than those of most others; but I may appeal to those who have known what my political life has been, whether I have not been, throughout the whole of that life, a stedfast Reformer. Ever since I have had a seat in Parliament, and more particularly ever since I have had the honour of a seat in this House, which I have now had from a date so far back as the year 1792, I have been a steady supporter of the cause of Reform, and, at the same time, an anxious acquirer of parliamentary influence. From the period which I have mentioned, though I was then young in age, and scarcely advanced beyond the threshold of political existence, I saw those who were in the same rank in life with myself, and in possession of the same means, busily engaged in appropriating to themselves all the parliamentary influence which they could possibly acquire. I, too, endeavoured to obtain similar influence from a conviction that it was necessary to counteract the influence of intriguing and designing men. I state this frankly and broadly to your Lordships, and I am happy to have this opportunity of doing so. I saw the individuals to whom I have alluded regularly engaged in supporting measures which I deemed detrimental to the best interests of my country. From the year 1792, when a mad crusade was preached against the liberties of mankind, and when an unjust and unnecessary war was on the point of commencing for the restoration of the Bourbons to the throne of France, which they have again lost, by their imbecility, bigotry, and oppression—from the year 1792, I date
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the origin of all the great misfortunes of the country. That is my humble opinion, be it right or be it wrong; I think that to that period the origin of our enormous debt, our heavy taxation, our immense establishments—in a word, the origin of all that creates and aggravates our present distress—may be clearly and distinctly traced. At that period I first entertained the thought of acquiring that parliamentary influence which I was afterwards so successful in acquiring. Enjoying, then, as I do, considerable borough property, I differ widely from those noble Lords who call this Bill, which aims at its destruction, a Bill of robbery and spoliation. I conceive that the desire of acquiring property of this description arises from two motives—either from the desire of obtaining and exercising parliamentary influence, or from the desire, of which I am sure that your Lordships could not support the bare idea—I mean the desire of deriving pecuniary advantage from the sale of seats. This latter motive is so indefensible, both in practice and in theory, that I am convinced that it is unnecessary for me to urge a single reason in proof of its impropriety. As to the former motive, the desire of acquiring parliamentary influence, I have only to say, that if it be a crime, I must plead guilty to the commission of it. I did seek parliamentary influence, and that, too, with great anxiety; but I sought it with a view of counteracting the measures of men, whom from that day to this I have continually, and without any exception, opposed to the uttermost. A noble Baron (Lord Ellenborough), who spoke with great ability yesterday, in reply to my noble friend near me (Earl Grey), took occasion, in the course of his observations, to assert, that the Whigs had gone over in a body, or, at least, with the exception of a very small portion of them, to support the Administration of a right hon. Statesman, whose loss I sincerely deplore—I mean the late Mr. Canning. I frankly avow that I was one of those Whigs who supported the Administration of Mr. Canning. I do not regret, I am not ashamed of, that circumstance. I gave my support to Mr. Canning on principle, because I thought that, when that illustrious individual stepped into office over the wreck of the preceding arbitrary Administration, the dawn of liberal principles was beginning to shine again upon the country. In consequence of that impression I did sup-

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port Mr. Canning. When his death took place, and the noble Duke succeeded to the helm of state, which was then vacant, I was proud to give the same support to the Administration of the noble Duke. I thought that the noble Duke had conferred such essential benefits upon the country by many of the great political measures which he had brought forward, that it was the duty of every man who loved his country to continue him in office. I need not enumerate to your Lordships the benefits which the noble Duke has conferred upon the country, for they are recorded in the hearts of his countrymen, and can never be forgotten. I know that the noble Duke will admit to me, that when I told him that I intended to support his Administration, I also told him that I should, upon all occasions, when it was mooted, support the cause of Parliamentary Reform; and, on that occasion—for the noble Duke had granted me a conference—the noble Duke told me as candidly that he would oppose it. I have always, upon every occasion, voted in favour of Reform; and, as long as my life lasts, I shall continue to vote in the same manner. I, therefore, beard with feelings of inexpressible satisfaction that my noble friend before me, who has honoured me with his friendship for so many years, was appointed to the head of affairs in this country; for I knew that under his auspices the cause of Reform must go on prospering and to prosper. With these feelings, then, upon my mind, I cannot refrain from congratulating your Lordships that this Bill is again laid upon your Table, from which I hope that it will not be withdrawn, until it shall receive, unshorn and unmutilated the Royal Assent. I beg leave also to offer to my noble friend at the head of the Government, and to my other noble friends who are his colleagues in the Administration, my grateful thanks for this Bill, which I look upon as the only means of rescuing the country from the abyss of misery into which the measures of former Ministers have unfortunately plunged it. It has been said that your Lordships should reject this Bill, because it is the offspring of popular clamour. My Lords, I deny the fact. The Bill is not the offspring of popular clamour: on the contrary, it is the foster-child of public opinion; and, though to popular clamour I attach but little weight, God forbid that I should not attend to public opinon. I likewise deny
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that there is any reaction with respect to this Bill, unless it be a reaction in its favour among the noble Lords on the other side of the House. If there be a reaction on that side of the House, it is one of the most desirable events that can happen to the country.
Lord Howard of Effinghamsaid, that he could not agree with the noble Earl who had risen on the other side of the House (the Earl of Falmouth), in thinking that there was any thing extraordinary in the circumstance of any noble Lord supporting Reform now, who had opposed it three years ago. The circumstances of the country, and, indeed, of the world, were so changed in the last two years, that the question appeared at present in a very different light from that in which it had ever been previously exhibited. If the noble Earl meant to deny that proposition, he must be blind to the changes which had been occurring almost daily in Europe. There had been a Revolution in France; there had been a Revolution in Belgium: and the changes which had occurred in those countries had produced a corresponding change in this. As long as the nomination boroughs were the objects of popular acquiescence, so long they might hold good; but, as soon as popular opinion directed itself against them, they must totter to their fall. Property in them there was none—at least none that was legal; and, therefore, the destruction of it could not be justly entitled a spoliation. He would conclude by stating it to be his opinion, that the decisive expression of popular opinion was a fair and legitimate reason for consenting to this measure of Reform.
The Earl of Falmouthobserved, that, in the remarks which he had offered to the House, he had not meant any thing personal to any of their Lordships.
The Marquis of Londonderryrose to notice the very extraordinary speech which had just been delivered by the noble Marquis, who had volunteered explanations wholly uncalled for. It was a strange exposition of the political power which the noble Marquis had acquired, and of the mode in which he, who professed himself to be a steady Reformer, had exercised it. It was to him (the Marquis of Londonderry) very remarkable, that with all those liberal principles which the noble Marquis declared influenced him, that he should have been the con-

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stant and undeviating supporter of every Administration which had been in power for this many a-year. The noble Marquis then went on as follows—"If I were a Reformer, I should say that I did not want a proof of the necessity of destroying all borough property, after the monstrous case which the noble Marquis has this evening made out against himself. The appearance which the noble Marquis has cut before us his fellow Peers, is in my mind passing strange. He has formally come down to us for the purpose of stating his own disinterestedness, and of declaring his intention to sacrifice his borough property on the altar of patriotism. I don't mean to say, that the noble Marquis has not a patriotic object in view; I dare say he has: but if I were in possession of large borough property, which unfortunately I am not, and if I wished to make the most of it when the Reform question was before the House, I should certainly come forward like the noble Marquis and declare my intention of supporting this Bill. And I'll tell your Lordships why I would do this. If the Bill passes, and a noble proprietor parts with his boroughs, it is very easy to suppose that the noble Earl who dispenses the favour of the Crown, may act in some such way as this—for instance, a Viscount may be created an Earl, an Earl a Marquis, and so on to the highest station in the Peerage. It is possible that in some such way, if the Bill passes, the noble proprietors of boroughs may get a compensation for the property which they professed to sacrifice; but if we reject the Bill, as I hope, and trust, and believe that we shall, the noble Marquis will still retain his boroughs, and I do not despair of seeing him still seated on that side of the House in full possession of them, even though another noble Peer should then be Prime Minister. I think that if this Bill passes, I shall have greater parliamentary interest than I have at present, owing to my connexion with several large commercial towns: but I am not an individual to be influenced by such a consideration. The noble Marquis, however, is connected with the county of Durham; and when I look to that county, I see, that, if he has no other reward, he will have his reward there from the great preponderance of new boroughs created within its limits. I have great esteem and respect for the noble Marquis: but if this Bill goes into the Committee—where it
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never shall go if I can prevent it—I shall have great pleasure in discussing with him the propriety of giving so many additional Members to the county of Durham, which I pronounce the most gross of all the Whig jobs in this disgraceful Whig-jobbing Bill."
The Marquis of Cleveland: I rise once more to address your Lordships in consequence of the gross personal attack which the noble Marquis has just made upon me. I am averse to continue a conversation which is at all times irregular, and which, on the present occasion, ought on every account to have been avoided. When there is such an important question as that now on the orders of the day standing for discussion, we are improperly trespassing on the time of the House—and, I may also add, on the time of the public—when we indulge in these petty, and puerile imputations one against the other. At the same time, in consequence of the petulant remarks of the noble Marquis, in vindication of my own conduct, and in total contrariety of the assertions of the noble Marquis, I must stand forward for a few minutes in defence of my political character. With respect to any favours, grants, places, allowances, or honours, I disclaim before your Lordships, and before my country, any idea or conception that any will be conferred on me. I flatter myself that I am as independent a man in every respect as any one of your Lordships. I am independent in every respect—ay, as independent as the noble Marquis is, or as any of the noble Lords by whom he is supported. With respect to the support which I have given to Parliamentary Reform, I have acted independently, looking neither to the right nor to the left for compensation or reward, but keeping one object always distinctly in view—the advantage of my country. I am not obliged either to one Government or to another. I have not been the supporter of all Governments indiscriminately. In contradiction to the assertion of the noble Marquis, I beg leave to state, that I have been for many, very many years, a constant opponent of the Government. From the year 1792 down to the year 1827 I felt it my duty to act in constant opposition to the Government of the day. I am not accustomed to public speaking, and therefore may not address your Lordships as clearly as I wish. The noble Marquis may not have apprehended what I intended to say. I will, therefore, in contradiction to

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the noble Marquis, who asserts that I have been the supporter of all the Governments under which I have lived, repeat that I have had the misfortune—for such the noble Marquis will consider it—to be in constant opposition to every Administration from 1792 to 1827, and that is no small interval in a man's life. I took my political principles early in life from my noble friend now before me. On these principles I acted with undeviating constancy, for more than a quarter of a century, through good report and through bad report. When Mr. Canning became Premier, I thought that the dawn of liberal principles was bursting upon us, and I therefore considered it my duty to support his Government. In the interval between 1827 and 1832 I supported the Governments of the Duke of Wellington and of my noble friend the present Premier, and as I have before stated the ground on which I supported them, I will not fatigue the House by restating them now. With regard to the influence which the noble Marquis asserts I shall possess in the county of Durham I beg leave to add a few words.—[Cries of "spoke, spoke," "Question, question."] I am sorry to detain your Lordships from the debate of the evening, which I admit is of far greater consequence than my character, or even that of the noble Marquis. But as I have been personally attacked, I trust to the candour of your Lordships to hear me in reply. As I seldom trespass upon your attention, I might claim your attention on this occasion. All that I have to say is, that I never have made any use of that influence to induce any Administration to bestow on me either place, government, or pension—that I never asked a favour of a Minister which induced him to leave, among his memoranda, the celebrated inscription of "This is too bad." I assure your Lordships that when I had the honour of being promoted by his late Majesty to my present rank, the honour was unasked and unsolicited by me. I sit on this bench behind my noble friends on this side of the House, because I look upon them as the statesmen best qualified to bring the nation through the difficulties under which it has long been labouring, and because I believe them to have the good of their country at heart. I support them independently and disinterestedly, and I shall continue to give them that support until I find them unworthy of it.
The Marquis of Londonderry: One word in explanation. I can assure the noble Marquis that I meant no personal attack upon him. He opened his views respecting the exercise of parliamentary influence, and I made, as I had an undeniable right to make, my comments upon them. I did not speak of the whole political life of the noble Marquis. I spoke only of his political conduct during the last seven years. In that time there have been four different Governments; their opinions have been wide as the Poles asunder; and yet the noble Marquis has supported them, one and all.
The Duke of Wellingtondid not rise to prolong a conversation which in every respect was irregular, and which could not in any way promote the business of the House. He only rose to say, in reply to the call of the noble Marquis opposite, that it was perfectly true, that he (the Duke of Wellington) had had the honour of the noble Marquis's support and assistance whilst in the Administration, and that nothing ever passed between them which was not highly honourable to the public and private character of the noble Marquis. He had no recollection of the particular conversation to which the noble Marquis had referred, though he had no doubt that it must have occurred; for in all the transactions which he had with the noble Marquis, he had found the conduct of the noble Marquis to be at once fair, candid, and manly.
Earl Greysaid, he understood the question before their Lordships was, whether a petition from Arundel respecting certain boundaries to be fixed by a bill not yet on the Table should be brought up or not. He had listened with the deepest regret for more than three-quarters of an hour to the turn which this discussion had taken, during all which time, however, he had not been fortunate enough to hear one word relating to the question really before their Lordships. On the contrary, he had heard nothing save that which appeared to him a most extraordinary fact—namely, that this petition had been made the peg on which to hang a debate full of acrimonious personalities and imputations as to the motives of the different Peers who had taken a prominent part in supporting and attacking the Reform Bill. It was not consistent either with the orders of the House or with the advantages of the public, that the motives of their Lordships should be

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thus scrutinized and discussed. He wished their Lordships to consider whether this was the occasion on which a discussion of this angry and personal nature could be prosecuted with advantage, if indeed such an occasion could ever be found. For what was the question which stood for their Lordships' consideration? A great question of constitutional policy, in which it was possible, though he hoped that it was not probable, that their decision might not be in accordance with that of the people. On such a question he should think that it would be the wish, as well as the interest of their Lordships, that the decision should be devoid of every thing that savoured of personal irritation. And yet what was it that he had heard that evening, save crimination and recrimination, bandied from one side of the House to the other? So that it would appear that none of their Lordships would vote except from some personal motives. ["No," from the Earl of Falmouth.] The noble Earl said no: but what could be the object of the noble Earl's attack on his noble friend (the Duke of Richmond), if it were not to throw some imputation on his personal motives? [The Earl of Falmouth: "No, no."] No! what, then, was the object of his attack? Why was it made? A discussion had arisen injurious to the character of the House, and inconsistent with the calm and dispassionate consideration which it was their duty to apply to the grave and important subject which awaited their decision. He had hoped most earnestly and sincerely that their Lordships would have approached this subject without extracting from it the bitterness of useless personality. Why such an abortive produce should be forced from it now, he would not take upon him to inquire; but he must be permitted to say, that he held as highly objectionable a discussion of this nature preceding so momentous a question as that which they were assembled to determine—a discussion tending to impute to public persons in that House motives not consistent with the interests of the community, nor advantageous to their Lordships. He felt himself called upon to say thus much, which, as the discussion was likely to cease, was perhaps unnecessary. He must at the same time declare his feeling of the independent conduct of the noble Duke who had been made the subject of uncalled-for observations. While he stated that
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no one could display more true independence of character than that noble Duke, he trusted that this mode of introducing irrelevant topics would not be persevered in.
The Earl of Falmouthwas not sure that he had committed a breach of regularity, for he had risen merely to remark upon the change of opinion which the noble Duke entertained, and not by any means to attribute motives to the noble Duke. For the noble Duke he entertained every respect, and should be ashamed to attribute to him any thing inconsistent with a course of uprightness and honour. He begged to disavow the use of observations more than were warranted by a wish to explain what he had before said; and even if he had trespassed a little on this score, he conceived that the last Member of that House by whom he should have been rebuked was the noble Earl who last addressed the House, to whose character and abilities so much and such frequent indulgence had been conceded in the way of explanation.
Petition laid on the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR ENGLAND—SECOND READING—SECOND DAY.
The Order of the Day being read for resuming the debate on the Reform Bill,
The Earl of Shrewsburyrose, and spoke to the following effect:—It is impossible for me, my Lords, to suffer this stage of so important a measure to pass without making a few observations upon it. Amidst the variety of conflicting arguments which are urged for and against any measure which is brought forward, it is something at least to acknowledge that it is expedient to yield to necessity. The noble Duke opposite, whose opinions must always be received with respect, has acknowledged that principle in a former measure of great and vital importance; and I think, therefore, that he ought to be the last man in your Lordships' House to vote that it is dishonourable or unbecoming in us to yield to agitation. The misfortune is, that agitation, hitherto, has been the sole remedy for the grievances of the people. But, if the noble and gallant Duke opposite yielded to agitation in 1829, so will he do well in yielding to agitation now; and so will every man in your Lordships' House do well in yielding that to agitation which should long since have been conceded to entreaty. But, my

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Lords, I say that policy and justice combine to sanction the irresistible demands of the people. Agitation is undoubtedly an evil; it is a dangerous means of obtaining justice; and this is the reason why I desire to see the present system altered, and the grievances of the country redressed by the great influence of a real and effective representation of the people. It appears to me, my Lords, that the Constitution of this country has never yet been anything but a beautiful theory, subject to perpetual contradiction in practice. I do not see, so far as I can collect from the history of this nation, that we have ever yet been free from the evils which are incident to other societies and to other forms of Government. We have been perpetually engaged in most wasteful and unjust wars—wars in which the true interests of the country have had but little share, and which have encumbered us with 800,000,000 l. of debt. We have been afflicted from time to time with tyranny, with anarchy, with civil war, with rebellion and revolution. We have felt at times commercial embarrassments to a degree unknown in other countries. We have a poor and unemployed population—a population starving in the midst of plenty. Of late years crime has been increased, both in atrocity and in frequency, to an extent beyond all precedent. We know, from the history of the country, that there have been times when the management of public affairs has been marked by the most profligate corruption in every department of the State; and the observation which I am now about to make applies to all periods,—namely, that we have always had a Government supporting itself by patronage, and keeping up a large army of occupation, and a numerous catalogue of useless and burthen some offices. We have seen this system pursued, until the people, driven to desperation by their evils and their sufferings, have risen with one accord, determined to emancipate themselves from a state of oppression which they could endure no longer. We shall now, I trust, see—and, in my opinion, it will be for the first time—we shall see this Constitution, which we have always been too fond of boasting of, become worthy of the praises which are bestowed upon it. This Bill will give it fair play—it will develope all its parts; and, while it calls forth the powers of the different parts, will give a freedom and activity to the
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whole, producing an energy and activity which have hitherto been unknown, and for ever annihilating that deadly monopoly, created by what I must call—although it is a strong phrase—an oppressive oligarchy which has ruled this country for so many years, and usurped every privilege and every prerogative of the different branches of the State, the independence of the Legislature, and the liberties of the people. This system, my Lords, carries the seeds of dissolution within itself and tends to compromise the existence of your own body. Your extravagance—your disregard of the interests of the country—your absolute tyranny over the people of Ireland—the bitter fruits of which you are now reaping—all these things are exposed in their true light, until, in my opinion, we now stand for judgment before the people. The judgment has been pronounced, and our only hope of pardon is, to sue for it in this act of justice. Pass this Bill, my Lords, and all your power will be restored—not the power which you have hitherto possessed of doing mischief—and the miserable condition of the country affords indisputable proofs of the extent to which you have availed yourselves of that prerogative—but the power of doing good, by co-operating with the people for the benefit of all, and the regeneration of the empire. But if we continue legislating for ourselves alone, seeking to promote our own interests at the expense of the interests of the country, the consequences of that vicious course will recoil upon ourselves. The sooner such Legislation ceases the better. If we wish to preserve our privileges we must proceed upon a good and sound view, and not upon any extravagant ideas of the stable and imperishable nature of those distinctions. We must right the people or the people will right themselves, and this irritating contest in which we have been engaged will have its issue in some dreadful and terrible national disaster. My Lords, after the speech which was made last night by a right reverend Prelate, in opposition to this Bill, I would beg leave to address one word to that portion of the House of which the right reverend Prelate forms a part. If the clergy know their own interest—and it is generally supposed that they do—I am sure that they ought to be the first to stand forward and do their duty to the country and the people. Hitherto they have too often

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shown themselves indifferent to the public good. They have been but too often the willing agents of every system of tyranny and persecution. They have been the promoters of that extravagance and spoliation with which this country has been afflicted at the hands of ambitious and self-interested men. But, my Lords, the time has now arrived—the opportunity is now come—when it will be seen whether they are capable of appreciating the spirit of the times, and of endeavouring, as far as lies in their power, to remedy the evils which they have had too large a share in producing. I would also take the liberty of addressing a few words to those noble Lords who intend to vote for the second reading of the Bill, with a view to bring it into a snare, in which they will be able readily to defeat it. My Lords, it appears to me that it would be much better that they should oppose the Bill in limine—that they should manfully stand forward in support of their own opinions, fight the battle boldly, and desist from that desultory warfare which they are about to wage against the measure; for, I believe that such a course will bring it into a snare from which the Government will not easily be able to extricate it. My Lords, the Minister, be he who he may, must, under the existing circumstances of the country—indeed I may say under all circumstances—he must command a majority in this House, or he has no alternative but to resign. In the present state of things I cannot look at that alternative without alarm; for, my Lords, I think that the resignation of the noble Earl now at the head of his Majesty's Government will not only be the death-blow of all the well-earned fame of a long political life, but in my opinion it will be the signal for anarchy and confusion in the country. The Minister, as I already said, must command a Majority in this House—not, as heretofore, by the interested means of corrupt and ruinous abuse of the public resources—not by keeping up a disproportionate number of offices in the army and navy, with an enormous civil patronage—not by translating a right reverend Prelate from a poorer to a richer see, or by advancing noble Lords from a lower to a higher degree of the Peerage—not by reinforcing this House with every man who has voted for a certain number of years in support of the Minister—not by sinecures or pen-
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sions, nor by giving large emoluments for small services; but by honestly and steadily pursuing the interests of the country, and suffering themselves to be guided by public opinion; for, in general, public opinion will be seen to be right. If we do not allow him to carry on the Government of the country on these principles, I see no other consequence but that your Lordships' House must be filled with men of different principles. I shall not detain your Lordships much longer. I shall merely express my opinion upon one point. It may be founded on erroneous views, but I will not blink the matter. It appears to me, my Lords, that if the House of Commons be Reformed, this House must also be Reformed, for otherwise there will be a constant collision between the two Houses, and no practical Government can be carried on.
The Earl of Limericksaid, that, of all the extraordinary speeches he had ever heard, he must say the speech made by the noble Earl who had just sat down, was the most extraordinary. He himself had been a sincere friend of Catholic Emancipation, but little had he expected, as one of the first fruits of it to have heard a noble Lord, who occupied a seat in that House in consequence of the passing of that Bill, get up and pronounce a violent phillippic, not only against existing Peers, but also against all Peers who had existed for the last century. The noble Earl had condemned the working of the Constitution as administered by men under whose Government this unfortunate country, England, had arrived at the proudest condition which any country had ever reached. He had arraigned the conduct of England, who stood alone against the world in arms, and asserted her liberty and her independence. The noble Earl said, that we had spent 800,000,000 l. of money. But he had omitted to state for what purpose that expense had been incurred. Was it not to preserve England and all Europe from the tyranny of one who otherwise would have reduced the whole into a mere province of his empire? He was rather surprised at one part of the noble Earl's speech. The noble Earl had made use of an unfortunate expression in repeating the word agitation; he had asserted, "That agitation had hitherto been the sole remedy for the grievances of the people." Did the noble Earl, by that expression mean to encourage the present

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violent proceedings in Ireland? He had been the advocate of emancipation—desirous of setting free the Catholics of Ireland, who made every possible profession—who took oaths and made declarations—who assumed the guise and manner of liberality; and what was now the result? He would venture to assert that there was not one of those oaths, not one of those declarations, which had not been falsified. He lamented, and with sorrow lamented, the course he had pursued on the Catholic Question, and he thought it manly even now to come forward and avow his regret. Ireland was now disturbed by an alarming and well-organized system of intimidation, carried on by a party whose first object was the overthrow of the Established Churches of England and Ireland; for, although the noble Earl (the Earl of Shrewsbury), perhaps, was not aware of it, the two Churches of England and Ireland were knit together, and one could not fall without bringing down the other.
The Earl of Shrewsburysaid, his argument appeared to have been misapprehended.
The Earl of Limericksaid, the noble Earl would have an opportunity of explaining hereafter, but he must be aware that when he started such doctrines as he had done with respect to the Established Church, the discussion in which such doctrines were propounded could not easily be carried on with all that moderation which it was admitted was so desirable in discussing the Bill now on the Table. The people of Ireland had other tutors besides the noble Earl, and he hoped they did not act in concert, but the remarks the noble Earl had indulged in coincided very materially with those made use of by such persons as avowed their present object to be, to overturn the Established Church in Ireland, but the two Churches of this country and Ireland were knit together, and one could not fall without the other. A paper which he had received that morning contained a speech made by the principle agitator in Ireland, in which he said, that it would be requisite to allot the number of Protestant Ministers that might be necessary for the service of the few Protestants in the country. He further said, that if the Reform Bill should pass—and he had no doubt that it would—the infusion of new blood into the Legislature would enable the Irish to obtain their favourite advocates, and their favourite ob-
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jects. Their Lordships were told by the noble Earl, that England had tyrannized over Ireland, and that they were now reaping the bitter fruits of it. Had England, who had thrown open her ports to Ireland, who, by admitting her produce on equal footing with her own, had enabled her to advance in comfort and riches deserved this remark? Again agitation had been stated by the noble Earl to be the powerful lever by which she was to obtain her rights. What had it already produced but insubordination, sedition, and nearly rebellion? By agitation a contemptible knot of low people had been enabled to convulse Ireland, and to dictate to England a measure which had shaken England to its centre, and had mainly contributed to produce the melancholy crisis in which they were now involved. The petitions of the great majority had been disregarded, and England had ceased to be a Protestant country. "Such a number of clergymen only should be allotted as were sufficient for the small number of Protestants, and, as they diminished, so should the number of their Ministers." So spoke one of their agitators. Was this the return that England was to receive from Ireland for the benefits she had conferred, after relieving Ireland from her debt—after relieving her from almost all internal taxation—after placing Ireland, as to her commerce, on exactly the same footing as England? Ireland had few manufactures, and yet by the great encouragement given to her agriculture, by throwing open the ports of England to her commerce, she was rapidly improving, and would attain soon a high state of prosperity, if her turbulent and seditious agitators would permit her to be tranquil. He had heard much of the Irish nation, but he did not conceive that such a nation existed. In Ireland there were three classes: first, the settlers from Scotland, an industrious, gallant, and religious people; next, the settlers from England possessed of a vast proportion of the property, intelligence and liberality of the country from whence they came, and attached, from interest as well as affection, to that country. To that class he had the honor to belong, and he was determined to adhere to England with the utmost fidelity. The third class were the descendants of the old Irish, numerous, indeed, but possessed of little of the real property of the country, sunk in the most degrading superstition, and completely under the

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control of a bigoted priesthood, drawn almost solely from the lowest peasantry, and educated in a college, which it would be well for the interests of Ireland if it never had existed, and which now, when Protestant establishments were suppressed, ought also to be abolished. He made these remarks in connexion with the Bill then before the House, for when he translated the meaning of the language uttered by the great agitator, which he had just quoted, he was convinced that the result of its passing would be, to return such Representatives to Parliament as would accomplish the two great objects the agitators had at heart, which were the destruction of the Protestant Church in Ireland, and the separation of Ireland from Great Britain. On these grounds he was prepared to vote for the Amendment.
The Earl of Mansfieldspoke as follows:—My Lords—Having addressed your Lordships at great length in the last Session, I am very unwilling to obtrude myself on the present occasion, more especially as the difficulty of finding new topics or arguments, which have not been used, has been greatly increased by the luminous speech of my noble friend, the noble Baron who moved the Amendment. The first question which I proposed to myself was, is there any alteration in this Bill which affects the principle to which I objected when the former Bill was submitted to your consideration?—and that question having been answered in the negative, the line of conduct which I ought to take appeared to me clear and distinct. But when I found that some noble Lords, who had so eloquently opposed the second reading of the former Bill, intended to carry this to the Committee (of which intention the public had been for some time aware), I thought it my duty to reconsider my objections, to examine whether there had been anything unfounded or exaggerated in my apprehensions; and I can with great truth assure your Lordships, that if I had been convinced that I had been in error, I would frankly have avowed it; I would not have been deterred by the fear of having inconsistency imputed to me though I might have trespassed on your Lordships' indulgence, while I stated the course of reasoning by which that change had been effected. If, however, the change had not been the result of conviction; if, after having declared my determination to defend the Constitution
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against attacks, (not against improvement—that is a mistake—) but against direct attacks, I had yielded to threats from fear of dangers, the existence of which I do not deny, or to the more specious argument as to the hopelessness of resistance; then I believe I should not have had the front to have addressed you. I should have given a silent vote; I could not even have been encouraged by example, or by the commendations which might have been bestowed upon this prudent, timely, submission. I have said, if I could have been convinced of my former error; for it was with astonishment that I heard a noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) declare, on a former evening, that, in consequence of the alteration which had been made in the provisions of this Bill, his objections to its principles were in some degree removed. I had the advantage of hearing the same noble Earl address the House last Session, in a speech which I assisted in circulating, because I considered it to contain the best exposition of the defects of the measure. From what has recently passed, however, I now suppose that I must have entirely mistaken the nature of the noble Earl's objections. It is unfortunate that the arguments which the noble Earl then so eloquently addressed to the House appeared to have made a more durable impression on the minds of the House than on his own. The noble Earl, however, must be the best judge whether the alterations which have been made in the Bill are such as ought to remove his objections to its principle. A noble friend of mine (the Earl of Haddington) last night gave another reason for supporting the second reading of the Bill—a reason to which I am at any time little disposed to yield—namely, expediency. For my part I am confirmed in my opinion of the propriety of opposing the second reading by the observations which fell from a noble Baron (Lord Wharncliffe) on a former evening. That noble Baron said, that the details of the Bill are objectionable, but that he thought its principle, after all, the one upon which all Bills for the Reform of the Representation must be grounded. If this be the case, then, I must object to all. I agree with the noble Earl at the head of the Government in thinking, that much would be gained should the Bill pass the second reading. It would, in fact, be saying, that the ancient Constitution of Parliament must be changed, leaving it to the

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Committee to find a substitute by which that Constitution might be replaced. The noble Earl, when he addressed the House last night, seemed to think that the principle of the Bill was generally, if not universally, admitted. As I do not wish to affect singularity, I have taken the trouble to consult some of my friends for whose opinions I entertain a very high respect, and am happy to find that they, like myself, are opposed to the principle of this Bill. It is my humble opinion that there is no necessity for Reform arising out of any defects in the state of the Representation. I may be told, as I have been before, both in this House and elsewhere, that this is to deprive the people of all hope. I can only say, such is not my intention, neither, as I conceive, would this be the effect of your Lordships' vote, to which, and not to the opinions of any individual, importance would be attached. But of this opinion, with your Lordships' indulgence, I will give some explanation. If we see (for I am happy to say that I need not employ the singular number), if we see that the people have been persuaded that their comfort and happiness would be materially increased by a change in the Representation, and that that change, though necessary, meets with continued, and, as they think, unjustifiable, resistance, may we not be permitted to express a doubt as to the existence of that necessity? for, if it did exist, no man would be more ready to admit that Parliament should immediately take the subject into consideration, and, if possible, should not separate without applying a remedy. For my own part, my Lords, I am not, from prejudice, opposed to all change, but require that there should be a hope that the change will be attended by real, not speculative, advantages; and of the reality, I say on behalf of your Lordships, you must be the judges; otherwise, in what consist your legislative functions? It is one thing to admit the possibility of improvement, and another to admit the existence of an evil to which an immediate remedy must be applied; and, if I were to say (which is my belief), that the country could go on increasing in wealth and prosperity as it has done since 1792, the people enjoy national liberty under excellent laws, fairly administered, although certain anomalies, to which allusion has been made, were suffered to exist, I should only be taking that ground which,
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by the admission of Reformers themselves, has been allowed to be good for those who adhere to the system under which they have enjoyed practical advantages, and reject theories, which cannot be founded on experience. But I do not push the argument so far. I think your Lordships should consider any plan, and even adopt it, if it were not objectionable, but, in my opinion, no Reform can be desirable, if it be founded on injustice. And an attempt should be made to persuade the people that the evil of delay would be preferable to the danger of falling into irretrievable errors by inconsiderate, and, I must say, nothwithstanding all the discussion which has taken place on the Bill, precipitate Legislation. In advocating the necessity of delay, I think I shall have the support of all the boroughs, which, by the first Bill, were to have lost their franchise, but are now to have one Member, and of those other boroughs, which, by the former Bills, would have been partially or wholly disfranchised, but are now to retain both their Representatives. The measure before the House is the third Bill on this subject which has been presented to Parliament. Is it better or worse than its predecessor? I must give Ministers the credit of supposing that it is better, although I beg to remind the House, that one of the threats held out to induce us to agree to the former Bill was, that if it should be rejected, a worse would be proposed in its place. If the present Bill, however, be better than that which preceded it, the country is indebted for the improvement to the wise interposition of this House, and, therefore, we may hope (though I confess that I am not sanguine) that, in the event of the rejection of the present Bill, another still less objectionable will be submitted to our consideration. But are we the only persons who doubted the necessity of Reform? In 1830 a motion was made in the House of Commons for leave to bring in a Bill for Reform of Parliament, which was negatived, as well as an amendment which called upon that House to resolve that Reform was expedient. The House could not have resolved that that which was necessary was inexpedient. Are not those who oppose Reform to take advantage of the decision to which the House of Commons came upon that occasion? If the necessity for Reform exist at the pre-

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sent moment, it must have arisen from circumstances, which have occurred since February, 1830. What were those circumstances? The noble Earl (the Earl of Shrewsbury) seems to think, that we have forgotten the events which took place in France and Belgium. In my opinion they have contributed to place us in our present predicament. It is admitted on all hands, that these events, operating upon congregated masses of the electors, threw the country into a ferment, and it is in such times that the wish for Reform has invariably been expressed. Then, my Lords, followed the change of Administration. The noble Earl and his friends succeeded to office. The noble Secretary of State for the Home Department last night asked, how Ministers could possibly refrain from redeeming the pledges which they gave, to bring forward a measure of Reform? Ministers must be the best judges of the obligations which they have imposed upon themselves; but every one must allow, that they have chosen a most unfavourable moment for obtaining a calm and temperate discussion of the question. It must, in justice, be acknowledged that the noble Earl has redeemed his pledge. Unfortunately, however, it sometimes happens, that men who have been long in opposition give pledges and promises to which a more extended meaning is attached than they themselves intended, and which, when they afterwards come to be placed in office, they find it equally irksome to perform, and difficult to evade. I fear that the noble Earl, when he was proceeding with perfect good faith to redeem his pledge, listened to the advice of those who entertained more extensive views of innovation; and the consequence was, the adoption of a plan in conformity with those suggestions. My noble friend near me (the Duke of Wellington) gave a simple but admirable description of the scheme which was then submitted to Parliament, when he said, that it effected a great and important alteration in the Representation of England, that it produced a change almost amounting to revolution in the Representation of Scotland, and in Ireland it destroyed what had been considered by Parliament the only safe-guard of Protestant ascendancy. Much has been said of the excitement which prevails relative to the question of Reform, and I cannot help observing, that the Ministers seem desirous
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of directing that excitement in their own favour. In times of excitement the cry for Reform has always been heard, but, under the sanction of Ministers, it is certainly more general on the present occasion than it has ever been before. I must contend that the conduct of Ministers has not been, like that of others, distinguished by prudence. Men in their situation know that there is inflammable matter in the mass of the people, and have, therefore, abstained from applying the torch. The noble Earl has stated, that the wealth and property of the country are in favour of the measure. Now, it is my conviction, after attentive inquiry, that the great mass of the property of the country is opposed to this Bill, and particularly to such of its provisions as recommend it to those who have a numerical superiority. But the advocates of Reform have now taken a new ground. They say, "we will no longer discuss the necessity of Reform, arising from defects of the Constitution, because that is a point upon which we cannot agree. You must admit a necessity arising from the state of the public mind." I interpret this proposition in the following way:—"We have excited—we have deluded the people—we have placed the country and your Lordships in a predicament from which you cannot be extricated, unless you consent to a measure of which you cannot approve." The force of this reasoning I can by no means approve, although it has been urged by a noble friend of mine (the Earl of Haddington), for whom. I entertain a high respect. Let us suppose that the general wish of the people was for moderate Reform, and that they conceived it was to be found in the provisions of this Bill—you must act as you would do on other occasions. If the wish of the people were for the declaration of an unjust war—the continuance of peace incompatible with the honour and security of the country—if their clamour were directed against some obnoxious but innocent individuals, would you, in the first case, deviate from a prudent policy, or, in the latter, allow the even course of justice to be diverted? Certainly not: it is not for me to prescribe what your conduct should be—of this you must be the better judges; but it certainly appears to me that, if this Bill be objectionable, you must reject it. (Once for all let me be understood as assuming that postponement is equivalent to rejection): The

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rejection will be simple—it will not be accompanied by any explanation, but the motives by which you have been actuated will be conveyed to the public—it will be known that, without giving any declaration as to Reform, you had perceived that there was delusion as to the benefits which were to flow from this Bill, and in its principle something incurably vicious. As to the delusion, there exists a strong feeling against the nomination boroughs; and, no doubt, the people will experience some gratification from the extension of the elective franchise; but that which is generally hoped from the Bill is, relief from taxes, either by a general diminution of imposts, or by the transfer of the taxes to that class of persons in which the majority of the people are not included. Your Lordships all know that it is a fallacy to expect any result of this nature; but, at the same time, I must add, that greater pains are taken to expose this delusion on this side of the House than on the other. But, if there be delusion in the public mind, what are the objects avowed by the most eloquent Reformers? I should think they were calculated to excite just alarm. The first object is, to render the House of Commons more democratic; the second, to prevent Representatives from being independent of the electors; and, last, to prevent Ministers from being—as it is contended they now are—independent of the control of Parliament. With respect to the first, I think that the House of Commons already is, both in Constitution and conduct, democratic enough. I have observed in the House of Commons a disposition to encroach on the functions of the other branch of the Legislature—to push its inquisitorial functions to an inconvenient extent—to interfere with the right of the Crown, and with the Executive; and also I see something in its conduct which you might expect from an assembly under the influence of the people. It further appears to me, that what is called the democratic party is still gaining ground. To be sure the persons composing the party have not as yet succeeded in persuading the House of Commons to confiscate the property of the Church—to pay the Church like the army, and the army as little as possible, and to reduce the King to the situation of the President of the United States. Under a Reformed Parliament, however, all this may be accomplished; and, when I express a doubt,
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I beg your Lordships to observe that the most zealous and candid Reformers express none. In fact, the real power is at this moment vested in the House of Commons if it choose to exert it—it has the command of the public purse—it can control the King in the choice of his Ministers. By the constituency which this Bill provides—by the Representatives which these constituents will return—an impulsion will be given to that wish which pervades all legislative assemblies, of obtaining superiority; while, on the other hand, you destroy that influence by which alone the propensity could be restrained. As to independence of the Representatives, it is certainly true that there is a portion of the Members who are indifferent to the frowns and smiles of their constituents; but that does not apply to the greater number; and in times of excitement, that will be evident. At the last election, many Members who had performed their public duty honourably and conscientiously, and had shown the greatest attention to the local interests of their constituents, were rejected, on account of their political conduct; whilst other persons, not more estimable, were preferred, because they gave pledges, and rendered themselves delegates. It is somewhat extraordinary that your Lordships should be told that the House of Commons has passed a Bill of Reform, in compliance with the wishes of its constituents; whilst, in the same breath, it is asserted, that Reform is necessary, because, under the present system, it is impossible that the sense of the people can be represented in Parliament. Now, with respect to the last of the reasons in favour of the necessity of Reform, I stand here in the presence of existing Ministers, and of noble Lords who have filled the highest offices in the State, and I ask them on either side, whether they ever found themselves independent of the control of Parliament? I believe those noble individuals must, on many occasions, have found the House of Commons interfere with some of their schemes of public improvement. If this control were the object, it was certainly very patriotic in Ministers to forge fetters for themselves, unless, indeed, they thought that their tenure of office was insecure, and, therefore, provided them for their successors. I hope your Lordships will allow me to compare the opinions of some of those persons who are usually quoted as advocates of Reform

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with those expressed by Ministers; your Lordships should hear what Lord Chatham said on the subject; but I will premise that Lord Chatham was at the time in opposition, and when a person is opposing a Government his zeal for Reform is generally more violent than on other occasions, and he may not, therefore, always express himself with the greatest moderation. Lord Chatham is reported to have said—for I do not quote from authentic documents—"That there was great difference between the theory and the practice of the Constitution: and that it was necessary to reconcile them." This is exactly the language of the Reformers of the present day. Lord Chatham proceeded to say:—"According to the theory of the Constitution, there should be a constant connexion between the Representatives and the electors. Will any man say that this connexion now exists? But be ware of having recourse to violent expedients." Speaking of boroughs, he applies a term which his Majesty's Ministers would think sufficiently contumelious; he says, "They are the rotten parts of the Constitution, but, like the evils of the body, we must bear them with patience, we must carry them about with us; the limb may be mortified, but amputation would be death." This eminent statesman proposed to infuse new vigour into the Representative system by giving additional Members to counties. Mr. Pitt, who adopted Lord Chatham's sentiments, proposed two plans of Reform, and a third after he was in office. The speech of Mr. Pitt made on the last occasion proved that he entertained a strong opinion as to the necessity of Reform. His plan consisted of enfranchisement and disfranchisement. He proposed to give the right of voting for counties to copyholders; that thirty-six boroughs, which he assumed to have fallen into decay, should be disfranchised, and the seventy-two Members distributed among the counties and the metropolis as Parliament might direct. That, as in the lapse of time, other boroughs would fall into decay, they should be disfranchised and the right of returning Members be transferred to populous towns. But provided that no borough should be disfranchised, and no large town acquire the right of voting, but with its own consent, anticipating what was possible, that some populous towns would not consider the right of returning Members as an advantage, and knowing that these rights were
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a valuable inheritance which would not be gratuitously surrendered—he proposed to establish a fund out of which they should be acquired by purchase. I shall pronounce no opinion upon the merits of this plan, but must be allowed to say, that, if persons so distinguished for vigour of mind as Lord Chatham and Mr. Pitt, and zealous in the cause of Reform, proceeded with so much caution, so much respect for vested rights, no Minister could have been ashamed to follow their example. Then came the more extensive schemes of Reform proposed by Mr. Flood, followed by those of the noble Earl: and here I would ask your Lordships' permission to read a quotation from a speech of Mr. Fox, although I think it probable that an ingenious attempt may be made to turn the argument against myself. Mr. Fox, speaking of the plan brought forward by Mr. Flood, which he describes, says, he prefers that of his hon. friend:—"My hon. friend's plan, built upon this idea, is an improvement of it, since it is not an attempt even to vary the form and outline, much less to new model the Representation of the people. It keeps every thing in its place, it neither varies the number nor changes the name, nor diverts the course of any part of our system. It corrects without a change, it extends without destruction of any established right, it restores simply what has been injured by abuse, and reinstates what time has mouldered away. No man, can have a right to complain of genuine property assailed; no habit—even no mode of thinking—no prejudice, will be wounded; it traces back the path of the Constitution from which we have wandered, but it runs out into no new direction." I will not inquire whether the plan of the noble Lord, which is not now before us, deserved that eulogium; perhaps I may think partiality for his hon. friend had affected Mr. Fox's judgment; but I think that I am entitled to say, that, for a plan to be desirable in his opinion, it must be so distinguished. Now, I would ask the noble Lords whether that be the character of the Bill? They would not even assert it; indeed I believe the authors would not like to be deprived of the merit of invention. But I would request those noble Lords who are inclined to moderate or to extensive Reform, to apply this test to any plan which may be recommended for their adoption. I oppose this Bill, and no alteration which it can receive in the Com-

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mittee will remove my objections. I continue to think that, if the rights of boroughs be thus arbitrarily taken away, there can be no security for any property held by charter from the Crown—that property of every description would be endangered, and other rights between which and property a distinction is drawn, though the union of rights and property can not be dissolved. The preamble of the Bill declares, that it is expedient to deprive certain boroughs of their right of sending Members to Parliament. Now, the infirmity of my mind is such that I can not attach any meaning to rights of which the holders can be deprived, without proved delinquency, or without compensation, voluntarily received or forced upon them by the necessities of the State. Indeed I believe the greatest tyrant never committed an act of such injustice, without an attempt at palliation, either by pretending a doubt as to the existence of the right, or imputing some delinquency to his victim. It is well known that there are rights of property connected with the franchise of boroughs which have been the subject of sale. Would any man have purchased property of that description if he had not conceived it would be safe? On a former occasion I admitted that rights could, in cases of emergency, be reassumed by the Legislature, and I quoted the case of heritable jurisdictions in Scotland. These jurisdictions were quite incompatible with good government; they must have been very obnoxious to the Parliament of England, where the traces of such feudal jurisdiction had long disappeared. In fact, they had been usurped and several Sovereigns, particularly James 6th, attempted to regain them. Now, the preamble of that Bill states, that it is for remedying the inconveniences which have arisen, and may arise, from the multiplicity and extent of heritable jurisdictions, for making satisfaction to the proprietors thereof, for restoring to the Crown the power of jurisdiction, originally and properly belonging thereto according to the Constitution. Here, then, is a case in which rights, odious in themselves, which were notoriously held by prescription, and on a title originally defective, are distinctly acknowledged, and satisfaction made to the proprietors thereof. This Act passed shortly after the Union. I will appeal to any of the noble Lords connected with Scotland, and ask, whether the beginning of improvement
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in that country has not been attributed to that Act, and I confess I never heard the least complaint that these rights had been recovered by purchase. I now come nearer to the present time—to the Speech from the Throne in October, 1831. His Majesty, after recommending the subject of Reform to the consideration of Parliament, proceeded to express a wish for its settlement by the adoption of such improvements in the Representation as may be found necessary for securing to his people the full enjoyment of their rights—which, in combination with those of the other orders in the State are essential to the support of a free constitution. My Lords, that is, constitutionally speaking, the speech of his Majesty's Ministers. Was it, then, the intention of those Ministers that the rights of the whole people should be maintained, but, that the rights of the individuals of which that people was composed should be trampled under foot? I will not say, that this was their intention, but I appeal to the candour of your Lordships, and ask, whether their arguments would not give the words that interpretation? I beg leave here to state, that, in adverting to the different plans of Reform, I am not pretending to give an opinion on their merits. The intention of my humble efforts is, merely to protect rights from aggression, not to point out any manner in which those rights should be acquired; that is a point to be decided according to the pleasure of Parliament; all I am contending for is justice. But, My Lords, if all close boroughs could be disfranchised, would it be of any advantage to the state? I think not; and for many of the reasons which were so ably stated by the noble Earl; but, indeed, to what topic connected with the Bill did he not advert—what did he not illustrate? Here, my Lords, I must advert to some subjects which have been treated of by the noble Earl near me, more particularly with respect to the advantage it is that sons of Peers should find seats in the other House in which they might acquire the facility of public speaking, and prepare themselves for public business, and for the functions which they have to perform in this House. This is not only a great advantage to individuals—and no man can appreciate that advantage more than the humble individual who addresses you, and who has cause to regret that he never enjoyed it—but, it is a benefit to the

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State, for the reasons which have been so well assigned by the noble Earl, that I would not do him the injustice to repeat them. The number of great statesmen and great orators who have represented these close boroughs is, in my mind, a great mitigation of that vice, if vice it be, of our Constitution. But at present there is a consideration which presses upon us still more. The interests of the empire are not confined to Great Britain alone. We have extensive colonial and foreign possessions, the interests of which, as well as others within the realm, are not directly represented. Whenever discussions arise on such subjects as the state of the West Indies, the renewal of the charter of the East-India Company, or of the Bank-charter, will it not be but fair that those interests should be indirectly Represented? Will it not be advantageous to the House of Commons that it should contain within itself men of experience and information to guide its decisions? My Lords, it would be perfectly impossible for many of these gentlemen to present themselves to a numerous constituency, such as will be created by this Bill, and who will probably be clamorous for the abolition of all monopolies and restrictions, though, as experience has proved, they might ascribe their subsequent distress to the removal of those restrictions. They would require pledges which it would be impossible to give, and what would happen? Those candidates would be preferred who would give the greatest promise of indiscriminate abolition. And here, my Lords, I wish to be understood, not to give any opinion as to the continuance of these monopolies, but simply to express my belief that, in Parliament, as constituted at present, information and evidence would influence decision, but that, in a Reformed Parliament, these cases would be prejudged. My Lords, as to another difficulty, it will not be very easy, especially if any individual Minister should have become unpopular, to procure the return of Ministers to Parliament. Perhaps (as nothing is impossible now) it may be in contemplation to adopt the French system, and to allow the Minister to support his measures in the House of Commons, but not to vote unless he be a Member. And, as some persons have thought that the Peerage might be held ex officio, and with the office resignable or resumable by the crown, perhaps we may have the honour
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of seeing some of those individuals take their seats in your Lordships' House. But, my Lords, it has often been assumed, and not so often contradicted as it ought to have been, that the Representatives of close boroughs are invariably the tools of the Ministry. Now, my Lords, this is notoriously not the fact, and we have seen several instances in which public men have been rejected by the constituents both of counties and towns on account of their political principles who have not disdained to re-enter the House of Parliament by the "narrow portal," as I think it was called, of a close borough, and have these re-asserted these opinions which they honestly entertained—opinions which had been objectionable to their constituents, not because they were slavish and submissive to the Crown, but because they were too licentious in the cause of liberty itself. My Lords, if there be no limited constituencies, what is a public man to do? Is he either to deceive his constituents or to retract his opinions? My Lords, there is another course which I am afraid he will be likely to pursue, he will follow the impulsion given him by public clamour, which, on many occasions, would not be the public opinion. And, My Lords, in my fancy, I could conceive a public man of splendid talents, who, in his early youth, had formed plans of the most extensive Reform, which, in his maturer age, he had thought it wise to correct as unsafe or impracticable, who afterwards might be called to the councils of his sovereign, and then urged by the voice of the people, which would be echoed by such Representatives as this Bill will give, goaded by a licentious but powerful Press, he might be driven forward in a course of wild innovation with a celerity the least proportioned to his opinions, or his wishes. Perhaps, too, at the close of his public life, he would experience regrets not the less painful because studiously concealed, that his ambition had been gratified, but that he had sacrificed the public weal to a transient popularity, and that the impartial historian would not associate his name with the growing glory and prosperity of his country, but rather ascribe to him, and to the measures which he had proposed the beginning of her decadence. Under the present Constitution of Parliament, in that predicament, no man, except voluntarily, can be placed. For, my Lords, whatever may be the difference of opinions

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on political subjects, or our feelings of party, that Minister could have recourse to a great portion of the House of Commons, and to a majority of this House who, forgetting all party differences, would support him in a resistance to measures tending to that very anarchy which, according to the statement of their supporters, must be the inevitable consequence of their rejection. My Lords, I have hitherto spoken of this Bill as calculated to render the House of Commons more democratical; but this is doubtful; and out of this House it has been offered to us as a consolation to diminish our opposition to it, that under its operation that House will be more aristocratic. I certainly shall not go into the details of this Bill, neither do I profess to understand the rules which have been laid down, and which appear to be not, as in other cases, rules by which an arrangement is to be governed, but as points from which to take a departure, according to the inclination of the authors of the scheme. And when it is seen that, in the Bill which is extending franchise, the number of electors in some towns will be diminished, a suspicion arises that, though close boroughs are to be abolished, something analogous is to be substituted, and that both in town and in the division of counties, individuals will obtain an influence equivalent to nomination, with this difference, that, as it is hoped the influence will be transferred from the opponents to the supporters of his Majesty's Ministers; and I think that the admissions of some persons high in office have confirmed that suspicion, that, in the instance of Whitehaven, the rules of the Bill had been departed from, in order to neutralize the influence of Tory Peers in the neighbourhood. Nor will it be removed by the declaration of the noble Marquis (the Marquis of Cleveland) that though he voted for the disfranchisement of close boroughs, he had the wish—I do not think he said the hope—that he might retain his parliamentary influence. Lastly, as to the question which is constantly proposed to us wherever we go, and which is the theme of general conversation—if the Lords reject this Bill, what is to follow? My Lords, I would state with great submission, that it appears to me that you have only to examine the Bill before you, and if it be objectionable, reject it. I cannot think that any apprehension of danger can justify a dereliction of duty. That rejec-
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tion cannot be accompanied, in my humble opinion—ought not to be followed—by any declaration of your readiness to agree to a plan of moderate Reform: to these words no definite meaning is attached. Such declarations and pledges on the part of individuals are inconvenient, in public assemblies they are dangerous, because they are liable to misinterpretation. What, then, my Lords, would follow? I attach but little importance to those threats which have been so plentifully held out by the Press, in language most gross, libellous towards individuals, but libellous—worse than libellous, almost treasonable—towards the Sovereign, and libellous towards the whole body of your Lordships, whose constitution and existence has been threatened with destructions: libels they are, indeed, of the grossest description—but although brought under the notice of his Majesty's Attorney General, they have had the good fortune to escape his censure, except when his fiscal sensibilities were awakened by an evasion of the Stamp duty. If the present Bill were rejected, disturbances there might be—a resistance even to the payment of taxes; I know not to what excesses the follies and vices of men might lead them. In the metropolis, violence of an inferior description, the demolition of windows (which I cannot think are better protected than they were last year, now that it is known that the proprietors cannot obtain any relief from the hundred). These are trifles compared with insurrections breaking out in different parts of the country; but, my Lords, I have but one opinion as to insurrections in this, or any other country—they would never have any permanent success, if the Government would do its duty. Now, my Lords, when some of these dangers were anticipated in the last Session, I expressed a confidence in his Majesty's Ministers, which, I am sorry to say, is much impaired. However, I should hope that the lamentable outrages which have taken place at Bristol and Nottingham will have opened their eyes, and that they will see that it is not enough to express a hope that the laws will be obeyed, when persons, certainly not their accredited agents, but their supporters, and admirers of Reform, instigate the people to fury, and (contrary to all sense and reason, I will admit) persuade them that acts of violence, though they cannot be abetted by the King and his Ministers, will yet be viewed

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with lenity. It may appear extraordinary that so gross a delusion should have prevailed, but I speak in the presence of many noble Lords whose local knowledge must have convinced them of the fact. It, is a delusion propagated by political associations, which the Ministers know to be illegal, and with the dangerous character of which they have been made acquainted by a communication from a quarter (the Duke of Wellington) from which such an act of patriotism was to be expected, and which, I hope, will be an example to all persons in opposition. The question of Reform stands now on particular grounds. It is not only urged on your Lordships by the voice of the people, but by two decisions of the House of Commons; and it was also recommended to your consideration in a Speech from the Throne, which, as I before stated, is, constitutionally speaking, the Speech of his Majesty's Ministers, though there can be no doubt that an impression has been made on the public mind that that Speech expresses the sentiments of the highest personage in the State, though I am perfectly prepared to do my duty in giving my vote for the rejection of the present measure, I cannot deceive myself by supposing that that rejection will be a settlement of the question. The people, some of whom are favourable to this Bill, others inclined to a moderate Reform, and many who see the injury which has been inflicted on commerce and trade, deeply deplore the agitation of this question; all concur in one opinion that it cannot be settled except by a legislative enactment. I should be happy to think that a legislative enactment of the nature of the Bill now before the House would settle the question, but I feel convinced, from the arbitrary mode in which the Bill abrogates all constitutional and prescriptive rights, and creates others, that the agitation of the question of Reform will not cease on the passing of the present measure. I agree with those who think it most desirable that the question should be settled; but it cannot be settled by the passing of a Bill which will lead to endless disputes. The settlement of the question can only be brought about by a measure which will satisfy the people. What that measure shall be it is impossible for me to attempt to say; neither does it appear to me to be the duty of your Lordships to propose any; we have only to consider the present Bill. By that Bill, or one of
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equal efficiency, his Majesty's Ministers have declared that they will stand or fall; and if they abide by that declaration, thy must be answerable for the consequences in which not only they themselves, but we, shall be involved. But, if after this Bill shall have been rejected (as I trust it will be), they will wisely, not weakly, not dishonourably, profit by the delay thus afforded them, and, in another Session bring forward a more moderate measure, or as the extensive scheme they have in contemplation involves the actual revision of the articles which bind Scotland and Ireland to England, if they will follow the example of those Ministers who brought about the Union with Scotland, and advise the Crown to appoint a Commission, to which it might be referred, to report what changes could be safely introduced, with a due regard to all the interests of the three component parts of the British empire—then, my Lords, I should entertain the hope that some measure, divested of those objections which have twice caused the rejection of the Reform Bill by this House, might be proposed. But, my Lords, if any measure equally efficient, or, as I should say, equally unjust, were again presented to your Lordships, I trust that you will never allow the rights of the meanest individual in this country, of which you are the guardians and protectors, to be thus arbitrarily torn away from them. For if you do, depend upon it, my Lords, that, at no great distance of time, your own rights will be the object of aggression, and you will become the unpitied victims of that system of spoliation which you will yourselves have sanctioned.
Lord Colvillerejoiced that his noble friend (the Earl of Limerick) had undertaken the task of showing the fallacy of the remarks of the noble Earl (the Earl of Shrewsbury), who preceded with regard to the situation of Ireland as connected with this country. He had always dreaded that Catholic Emancipation would produce such fruits as they had seen a small display of in the course of the debate, and he had therefore, opposed it. But they had now again before them a measure which was consequent upon agitation, although it was brought forward under the specious name of Reform. This was the second Bill introduced by that name, which would be equally as mischievous and dangerous as the former, to the institutions under which this country had so long

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flourished. He owed it to himself, and to the noble body who had returned him as one of their Representatives to that House in five successive Parliaments to speak his sentiments distinctly on so important a subject, deeply as he lamented his inability to convey them in language so forcible as to make any impression, particularly after the speeches of the noble Baron (Ellenborough), and that of his noble friend (the Earl of Mansfield), who had just sat down, nor could he refrain from tendering his humble thanks to those two noble Lords who had so ably expressed sentiments, in most of which he fully participated though he was unable to give them utterance, in a manner worthy of notice, after them. He was free to say in plain terms, however, that he regarded the Bill with the most unqualified disapprobation; and if the Motion before the House should proceed to a division, he should feel bound to give his vote against it. He had voted against the last Bill conscientiously, but not without regret, and had hoped that the next measure brought forward by Ministers would have been of a less objectionable character than the last. But the present Bill he considered to be as bad, if not worse than the former. He fully adopted and cherished the opinions of his late lamented friend Mr. Canning, on this subject, and he would beg leave to read a part of one of his speeches as the foundation on which his present opposition rested. The right hon. Gentleman had been eulogizing the great and successful efforts made by this country during the late war, and added—'Amidst the devastations alike of all that was most stately, and all that was most humble, one edifice alone stood firm and erect, affording at once a refuge to the fallen, and a succour to those who stood. Well! was that unassailable bulwark distinguished for its superior size and dimensions by the greater number of its garrison, or by its position? Certainly not. In all these, many which had fallen were greatly superior—but it was a fortress so happily put together, so strongly connected in all its parts—so wonderfully combining all the means of internal security and external defence, that its gallant garrison was able to defy the power which had laid waste the civilized world. That fortress was our country, and the secret of all its strength and greatness—the sacred cement which binds
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together that impregnable work—is the British Constitution. To that Constitution the people of England are, I trust, all equally attached and devoted, however, as freemen, we may sometimes honestly differ on the best mode of practically applying it in the detailed administration of public concerns. But after it has withstood so many storms—after it has enabled us to overcome so many dangers and difficulties from within—and to repel so many assaults from without—I cannot believe that a sober and reflecting people will easily be seduced to attempt any great and undefined change in the structure of the fabric itself. When men deal in loose and general declamation on such a subject—when they glibly talk of the most difficult and fearful question which human ingenuity can conceive, and the most intricate which human wisdom can investigate—the formation of a new, or the remodelling of the old Constitution in any country, as of a plain self-evident proposition, I own that I feel very little respect for their understanding; or, if I am compelled to acknowledge their intelligence, I can only do so at the price of assuming (what I fear is too often the case) that they themselves have very little respect for the understandings of those to whom they addressed such observations. Least of all would they be applicable to our own Constitution, the work of the accumulated experience of ages, favoured by choice and circumstances, and progressively improved and matured by the cautious wisdom of all the great legislators and statesmen who have served and adorned this happy country.' He never could give his consent to the Bill as it stood at present, and as he was hopeless of any amendments being adopted in Committee which would render it unobjectionable in his judgment, he thought that the best course he could take was, to say "not-content" to the second reading.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that no man could be more sensible than he was of the disadvantages under which he then rose to address their Lordships at that period of the debate, while the voice of a noble Earl (Mansfield) must be still almost sounding in their ears—conveying to their Lordships at once the ablest arguments, combined with the brightest specimens of eloquence, which it had been for some time his fortune to have heard,

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There were many parts of the noble Earl's speech in which he fully concurred, and many parts in which he did not concur; but he should not attempt to answer the noble Earl further than to say, that that which they chiefly differed upon was the existence of boroughs of a certain description, and the principle of disfranchisement. The noble Earl had an insurmountable objection to all disfranchisement, and differed from him also in conceiving that their Lordships might, without any disastrous consequences, again refuse to read the Reform Bill a second time. The noble Earl had taunted him with having changed his opinions on the present measure, and, in doing so, was only adding the sanction of his name to taunts and insinuations dealt in elsewhere. He did not expect this from the noble Earl, because he had flattered himself that he had guarded himself against the possibility of misrepresentation, when explaining, a few evenings back, the grounds on which he should feel it to be his duty to give a vote on the present occasion different from that given by him when the Bill was formerly before their Lordships. But that had not turned out to be the case; for he had been called upon, not, he presumed, to answer the defenders of the measure, or the opponents of the measure, but to answer himself. His only hope, he would confess, in addressing their Lordships on the present occasion, was, that he should be able to persuade them of the honesty of his intention, and that he was still animated by the same object as when he was last addressing them, although it was true that he was pursuing the end by different means. He was not ignorant of the obloquy which his course was sure to call upon him; knowing full well, that, in times of excitement like the present, be the course pursued what it would, it was certain to call down the censure of those who followed an opposite one; and, above all, knowing full well, that those who, like himself, were pursuing a middle course between two antagonist parties, were sure to win the angry reprobation of both. He expected that such would be his fate, and he was not deceived. He had been attacked by both sides of the House: he had been denounced as a "deserter" to his party, and a "treacherous friend." He had, nevertheless, sat silent, but would now say briefly, in answer to this last ungracious accusation, that it
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struck him that, as no man could be with justice arraigned as a deserter to a party in which he had never enlisted himself, or arraigned as a treacherous friend, where he had never pledged friendship; so neither accusation could, with justice, be applied to him, who had not enlisted himself, nor pledged himself to any party, or particular line of policy whatever. His speech against the Bill, when it was, on a former occasion, under their consideration, had been quoted against his proposed line of proceeding on the present occasion, by the noble Earl to-night, and a noble Marquis on a former evening, principally with a view to show that he was then endeavouring to effect what he had formerly declared was an impossibility,—namely, effect such alterations in the provisions of the Bill as would render it unprejudicial to existing institutions, without at the same time destroying its essential principles. Now, without arguing the question whether possibility or impossibility in politics was not a relative term contingent altogether on circumstances, he would ask any man who had heard his speech, and had taken the trouble of noticing the views which he then took of its subject matter, if that speech was the speech of a man determined to resist, under all circumstances whatever, the consideration of a measure of Parliamentary Reform? He denied that it could be so interpreted; at least, if it could, he would say, that never did words more misrepresent the sentiments they were intended to convey, for never was any thought further from his mind than an unqualified resistance to all Reform. Indeed, the thought or opinion which more than another he was anxious to express was, that they should never again treat the present Bill as they had treated the last. "I wished," continued the noble Earl, "to impress upon your Lordships' minds, that though we had then acted rightly in rejecting the Bill, we should not be warranted to do so again. This will do once, but must not be repeated. We cannot hope to again successfully resist a measure which the House of Commons has sanctioned for a second time by a large majority, and in favour of which the people of England had expressed a decided opinion. It was because I felt this, that I had prepared a resolution of which many noble Lords are aware as well as of the reasons which induced me not to bring it forward, by which the

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House would pledge itself, in the then next session, to take into its serious consideration some plan for extending the franchise to his Majesty's subjects, and for correcting the abuses which had crept into the representative branch of the Constitution." He was on the point of moving this Resolution, when he was persuaded by some noble friends, that to do so then would cause more harm than good—that it would be better to wait till the excitement of the public mind had been somewhat allayed, before a more moderate measure of Reform than that brought forward by Ministers should be submitted to Parliament. He yielded to the suggestion, hoping that the interval between the two sessions would afford the public and their Lordships time to maturely consider the real merits of the question, and that the result would be, that both would see, that the plan of Ministers, if adopted, would prove injurious to all existing interests. He regretted to say, that he had been disappointed in his expectations, and that the delay had not produced the beneficial effects which he had hoped for. There was sufficient time for a reaction in the public mind with respect to the Ministerial Bill to have taken place, but it could not be denied, that, though strong as had been the objections urged in that House and elsewhere against that Bill, no such reaction had taken place. He still thought, however, that the delay had produced much good. It must not be supposed from this, as a noble Lord had wrongly insinuated, that he thought that the changes which had been effected in the Bill, in consequence of that delay, had entirely, to his mind, removed all the objections which he had expressed against the former measure. By no means; though many of his objections had been removed, many remained, which he should ever feel to be insurmountable, so far as the principles of the Bill were concerned. But still, he repeated, the delay had produced good, and had produced great and most important changes in the minds of the opponents, as well as the advocates of Reform. When the Bill was formerly under their consideration, there were, to all practical purposes, two parties in the State with respect to Parliamentary Reform—those who went the lengths of Ministers, and those who objected to every measure implying extensive alterations in the existing system. Since that time the second party had dis-
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appeared, and the country was divided into those who insisted upon a sweeping measure, and those who were not repugnant to the passing of a moderate one. Then the temper of the two parties had experienced an equally extensive change—on the one hand leading to a diminution of the dangers of rejecting the Bill—on the other hand seriously aggravating them. On a former occasion he had stated that there was danger in their either rejecting or adopting the scheme of Ministers. He repeated the declaration then—with this addition, that it appeared to hint that after the changes which had been effected in the Bill, and after the important fact that its main principles had been twice adopted by the House of Commons with increased majorities, it would then be safer to let the Bill go into Committee, than, as on the former occasion, refuse to consider it in its present form. It was not enough for noble Lords to point out the obvious dangers of passing the Bill—and of their magnitude, no man could be more sensible than he was—unless they, at the same time, were prepared to show that the opposite danger of rejecting it was of far less moment. And this task no noble Lord had as yet ventured to perform. When he stated that the opinions of those out of doors who had hitherto been totally opposed to a measure like the present, had changed very much within the last twelve months, he stated what the facts daily occurring before their eyes more than confirmed. Where, he would ask, were the petitions against all Reform? Some noble Lords had presented what were called petitions "against the Bill," and even these were few and far between; but did any of them protest against any change in our representative system? on the contrary, did they not all demand a "prompt and vigorous correction of the abuses" which had been allowed too long to impede the working of the Constitution? Even in the petition presented a few evenings since by a noble Duke (the Duke of Rutland) from Leicester against the Bill, and which the noble Duke had designated to be an Anti-reform petition, but which he (Lord Harrowby) would call a petition for moderate Reform, the prayer was, that their Lordships might not "ultimately pass a measure dangerous to the Constitution." The feeling of the country being thus undeniably in favour of some change in our representative system, it was the duty of

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their Lordships to conciliate that feeling, so far as was compatible with the true interests of the country. It was on this consideration he would vote for the second reading, hoping, as he had more than once stated, that in Committee he should be able to effect such alterations in detail as would, in some degree, obviate the objections which he still entertained against the principles of the Bill. But it had been out as a threat, that if he thus voted for the second reading, he was bound to go the full length of the general principle which his vote sanctioned. Before he answered this assertion, he would first remind their Lordships that all, both in and out of doors, were now advocates for some measure of Reform; so that the only question was, the kind and amount of that Reform, and whether the general principles of the measure then under consideration, were those most calculated to satisfy the wants of the country? The question he again and again repeated was, then, one wholly of degree; and so considered, it would be seen that the scheme promised them by the noble Duke (the Duke of Buckingham) was as inconsistent with itself, as it was obnoxious to most of the objections urged against the Bill it was meant to supersede. What were the principles of that Bill? Simply disfranchisement, enfranchisement, and the extension of the franchise. What were the principles of the noble Duke's plan? Enfranchisement, disfranchisement [the Duke of Buckingham: "No"] and the extension of the franchise. The noble Duke said, he did not mean to disfranchise; but what, he would ask, was the consolidating of five boroughs into one, but a disfranchisement of from ten to two Members? And this reminded him of a striking inconsistency in this part of the noble Duke's project. The noble Duke would fain preserve a portion of the nomination boroughs, on the ground that they served as inlets to Parliament for men of great capacity, who otherwise could not obtain an entrance there. And how did the noble Duke propose to preserve this nomination influence? Why, by distributing the power of the nomination, which was at present in the hands of one proprietor, among five or six proprietors—rather a strange mode of guarding against those collisions and contrarieties of interests which had been charged against the present Bill. There were five boroughs, say in Cornwall, the
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property of different individuals, and these the noble Duke would "consolidate" into one returning two Members, in order to preserve in degree the power of nomination. Was there ever a more absurd proposition? And did noble Lords deceive themselves that such crude and contradictory schemes would satisfy public opinion, now admitted on all hands to be irresistible? No: far wiser would it be to reject the principle of Reform altogether, than thus attempt to impose upon themselves and the public, by nominally admitting, but virtually scouting it. But to return to the proposition, whether he who voted for the second reading of the Bill, was bound to maintain its provisions in Committee. He had heard the speech of the noble Earl (Earl Grey) yesterday evening with much satisfaction, for he saw in its moderate and conciliatory tone, a disposition, as he thought, to adopt—at least not pertinaciously to resist—such amendments as would not necessarily destroy its more important features, and he saw in it that deep conviction; in which he was confident their Lordships all participated, of the necessity of a prompt settlement of the question for the peace of the country. This temper of the noble Earl's speech, as well as that change in the temper of the times to which he had before referred, emboldened him to say, that though they could not hope to deprive the Bill of all its evil tendencies, they might yet hope, in Committee, to suggest such alterations as would prevent much evil. But then they were told that they should not yield to clamour or intimidation—that they owed it to themselves and the country to be above the "eloquence of fear." He agreed that they ought not—he was sure that they would not yield to intimidation—but he was also sure that they would not be induced by vapid declamation, to confound a timely yielding to the force of circumstances which was above their control, with a cowardly shrinking to clamour. If their Lordships saw that they could not hope to obtain good Government till the question of Reform was settled, was it not their obvious duty—no matter how they might differ as to the particular mode of Reform—to assist in effecting that settlement as promptly and satisfactorily as possible? And if they also saw that nothing less than an extensive measure of Reform would satisfy the public mind, were they not bound to forego their own

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predilections, and do the best to prevent the ill consequences of a too rapid and violent change? It would not do to say—"All very well, but we persuade ourselves we are promoting the best and lasting interests of the Reformers themselves, by stinting them in their demands;" for, as he had said on a former occasion, it was not enough that a Government was intrinsically good, unless the people governed at the same time felt and acknowledged it to be so. Every free Government must ultimately rest upon the basis of public opinion; when the wind from that quarter was foul, if it was only a light and variable breeze, their Lordships might tack or cast anchor; but when the public feeling assumed the strength and steadiness of a trade wind it was in vain to struggle against the gale. There were many occasions, he admitted, when it would be better to defer the final settlement of a question till the occasion which had called it forth had changed or passed away; but he would ask, was the present question of Reform one which any delay could get rid of, or, what was more, any Government prevent? If the people, indeed, formed erroneous opinions relating to subjects upon which they called the Legislature to proceed to enactments, then, undoubtedly, it was the duty of Government to oppose them, and wait until those notions had been corrected; but it was absurd to believe that the people were anxious for civil war, or for rebellion. Their feeling in favour of Reform, was not a mere violent ebullition of transient fury, but a chronic and deep-seated affection, which the rankling of suspense and disappointment, and the "hope deferred that maketh the heart sick," served but to exacerbate. There were doubtlessly combustible materials collected, to which a spark applied might set the whole in a flame. There was a belief of the want of a co-operation on the part of Government with the people—a want of confidence in the institutions under which we lived. There was a want of respect for that Parliament which had twice, by a large majority, passed the Bill, and which had been twice denounced from the Throne as not being the Representatives of the people of the country. Were these facts, or were they not? Had not the House of Commons twice, by an increasing and large majority, shown that that House did not adequately represent the people. And if so, was it for their
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Lordships to turn round and gainsay a decision thus solemnly pronounced and repeated? Let not their Lordships suppose, that in using this plain language, he did not entertain his original objections to the Bill. He still thought that Ministers were much to blame in launching a measure of such sweeping change—a measure which, he had formerly stated, being once launched, it was equally dangerous to reject or to adopt; he still thought the people of England were wrong as to their opinions of the benefits which they possibly could derive from that measure; and he thought the House of Commons still more wrong in twice adopting its provisions. He also retained his conviction that the day on which the King on his Throne had promulgated the plan of that measure was a day fatal to its integrity—perhaps existence—a day only less fatal than that on which, for the second time, his Majesty was advised to call the attention of his Parliament to the necessity of speedily adopting it. But though he held these opinions, he felt that the question stood now, unfortunately, on far other grounds. It was now not a question between this or that plan of Reform, but one wholly of a choice of evils. This at least was the view he took of it, and which, in justice to himself, he felt bound to explain, as the ground on which he felt himself compelled, in this choice of evils—that is, the choice between the dangers of rejecting and adopting the Bill—to vote for the adoption, as the lesser evil. But supposing he was wrong, and that their Lordships should again reject the Bill, he would ask, was it safe to risk the hazards of a third Bill? Had they heard anything from the noble Earl (Earl Grey) which could induce them to believe that he would consent to a measure of less efficiency or extent? Were they sure that another measure would not most probably be one of still more extensive changes, and one brought forward under still more objectionable auspices? If their Lordships rejected the present Motion for a second reading of the Bill, would they not be provoking that evil to which the noble Earl said, he would not have recourse but as the last resort. But let them proceed a step further. Let them suppose the Bill rejected, and that a new Government had succeeded to that of the noble Earl. Were the opponents of the present Bill foolish enough to believe that they would gain anything by that change?

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Did they suppose that by a change of men, they could get rid of the Reform Question altogether? He would tell them not to deceive themselves for one moment by such a dangerous belief. Let his Majesty select whom he might for his counsels, Reform must constitute a condition of office, if those persons hoped to continue a single week in his service. He said a single week, for even less would suffice for the present House of Commons to disabuse any Minister who should be mad enough to assume the helm on the principles of anti-Reform. But perhaps he might be told "the remedy was obvious—let his Majesty dissolve Parliament, and so procure a House of Commons more amenable to his new Counsellors." He would ask, where was the man bold enough—he would say, mad enough—to make the trial? Apart from all the evil consequences of protracted suspense, and delay, and excitement, he would ask, was there the remotest chance of their obtaining a House of Commons less pledged to Reform than the present? Was it not probable, indeed certain, that the new House of Commons would insist upon a measure of far more extensive change than even the present, he admitted, objectionable measure? And was it not equally certain that their Lordships' means of resisting its adoption would be considerably lessened? He would, then, in this choice of evils, call upon them to adopt the less, and vote with him for the second reading. The question, he repeated, over and over again, was one of comparative danger; let them not blindly follow the most dangerous course of proceeding. But it had been said by the noble Lord (Lord Ellenborough), that we ought, notwithstanding everything we saw, still to give a persevering resistance to Reform. He, however, did not know how this was to be done, and willing as he might be to do it, he still could not serve in any army, if one wing of it was commanded by the High Bailiff of Old Sarum, and the other was to be under the command of the Mayor of Gatton. He would again intreat their Lordships to allow the Bill to go into Committee; he would entreat them to bend their minds in Committee to remove the objectionable parts, and great amendments might be made in the measure, without rendering it unpalatable to the other House of Parliament. He would intreat their Lordships to make all such amendments
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as they thought unpalatable with the great principle stated in the preamble, taking care that the commercial and manufacturing interests were properly represented, without, at the same time, neglecting the interests of the agricultural portion of the community. He hoped that a proper balance would be preserved. He did not here speak of that balance of these interests as though they were opposed to each other, for he concurred with what the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government had asserted, that their interests were united. He wished no preponderating influence to be extended to either. He should, however, always object to a democratic power extending itself, converting the House of Commons into a body of delegates. The question now came to this, were the people to be disregarded? All experience had shown that wise Governments had attended to the demands of the people, where those demands were grounded on rational foundations. He had but few words to add, and they related to himself, for which he begged to apologize for troubling their Lordships upon such a topic. He felt, in the discharge of this most important duty, that he acted conscientiously, and to the best of his belief. He had lately taken but little part in debates and political affairs, and if it were the final vote which he should ever give, he felt reason to be satisfied with it. In that vote he had been biassed by no one—he had no political object in view—for no consideration on earth should ever induce him to take any political situation again; it was, therefore, without hope or fear that he came to the conclusion he had; he was anxious to retire to the bosom of his family in private life—having witnessed one friend after another quitting this mortal scene, whom he loved, and whose memory he revered. He was not unaware of the obloquy which might, and probably would, attach to him from quarters that would give him pain, on account of the course he had taken; but it appeared to his judgment that he was acting rightly, and he felt bound to sacrifice the applause he might have received had he taken another course. Applause had never been the object of his ambition, nor should he now shrink from the censure that would attend him. He was anxious to retire into private life; and, if it should be his last vote, he felt gratified that he raised his feeble voice

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in favour of the second reading of the Bill.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he should commence his observations by expressing the deep concern and pain he felt in offering himself to their Lordships on the present occasion, when he had to express a different opinion from that of his noble friend who had just sat down. After having served confidentially for many years in a Government in which his noble friend had been a principal Minister—after having subsequently sat in the Council with him for five years—when he was called upon last October to consider this question, having had the satisfaction to follow his noble friend's lead and counsel in the vote which their Lordships had then agreed to, he certainly felt no common regret at being compelled to differ from his noble friend on this occasion. Their Lordships might conceive, knowing as they did the satisfaction with which he formerly heard his noble friend's speech, the pain with which he felt himself bound to advert to that speech, and to compare it with what had fallen this night from his noble friend, and which he must do, in order to obviate the mischief that might befall from their Lordships feeling the same confidence in his noble friend now that they had justly reposed in him last year. He was sure, however, that his noble friend would not feel that he was wanting in personal respect, although he felt compelled to pursue this course. On that occasion, the noble Earl had stated, that the question was, to show, whether they approved of the principle of the Bill by voting for the second reading; and the noble Earl then voted against the second reading, because he did not approve of the principle. The noble Earl had then said, 'The principle and object of the Bill, are to make the Constitution more democratical. Look to the consequences. When that assembly, which has already become the chief governing power of the State, attains to be not only the governing power, but the Government itself, and suffers itself to be guided by other assemblies of another description, such as have recently been formed in the North, and especially at Birmingham—when these come with their directions for our conduct thundering over our heads; what, I ask, will be the kind of government then presiding over the interests of the country? What is it that we are to expect from a
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Legislative Assembly so constituted and so directed?'* The noble Earl after addressing their Lordships in a speech of upwards of two hours duration, which was listened to with the greatest delight, and every word of which proved the soundness of his doctrines, came at last to the conclusion—'We are told by the noble Earl, that we have no option but to take this Bill as it is—to adopt at once a proposition which is to consign us and our posterity to a new form of Government, which no one has ever ventured to tell us would be practicable, and which, if it were practicable, would, in my opinion, be pernicious.'† These were the sentiments of the noble Earl with respect to a Bill, than which the noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey), told them the present measure was no less effective, and which indeed they all knew to be the same Bill, and one also, which, if the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) was to be believed, could produce no beneficial effects. Then he would ask the noble Earl how could he say that we must read this Bill a second time and go into Committee in order to adopt such a Bill? And what were the grounds that he assigned for this new course? The first was, that this Bill had been sent a second time up from the House of Commons, and had passed there by an increasing majority. Now, he (the Duke of Wellington) must advert again to what had been said—he believed by the noble Earl—but certainly by the noble Lord at the Table (Lord Wharncliffe)—as to the effect this would have on the constitution of the House of Commons. That noble Baron had, in March 1831, foretold to the Government what would be the effects of a general election—namely, that it must cause the return to the House of Commons, not of Members, but of delegates, and that its result would be to place the House of Lords in the situation in which it stood last year, and was now again placed on the present occasion. Was everything then to be given up because the noble Lord opposite had taken that course? Was that House to be destroyed, or must it lend its aid to destroy the Constitution because Ministers chose to persevere? The only remedy for this would be to place things as they were before the agitation was commenced,
* See Hansard, Third Series, Vol. vii. p. 1153.
† Ibid. p. 1174.

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to restore calmness before deliberating, and their Lordships ought rather to address the King to remove the Ministers from their places, and put things as they were before, in order that the House might have a fair opportunity for discussion, than proceed at present to read that Bill a second time. He would ask, was the country to be handed over to a Government which was not in any manner practicable? Was the security of all the institutions of the country to be brought to risk, because the House of Commons was in a state which prevented it from giving to this Bill a deliberate consideration? All the arguments regarding the decisions of the House of Commons must come to the same end. There would, no doubt, be ten decisions of the same kind, if it were left to the same House, because that House was pledged and returned for the purpose. But the country was not to be abandoned on this account. He altogether denied that the difficulty now experienced was chronic, as had been stated by the noble Earl; it was only temporary, and was to be removed by the Government that had raised it. Then the next point of the noble Earl was the opinion of the country. Now, there could be no doubt whatsoever that there was no opinion existing in the country, in the year 1829, and the beginning of 1830, on the subject of Parliamentary Reform. [Cheers.] That was a fact which was fully admitted, notwithstanding the cheers of noble Lords, and he would say it might be taken for granted. Then came the French Revolution, and the insurrection in Belgium, which occurred at the commencement of the elections of 1830; and there was no doubt that these events occasioned a very great excitement and alteration in the elections, as well as greatly inflamed the people with respect to Parliamentary Reform. The noble Lords opposite had then come into power, and (the Duke of Wellington) would say, that that Parliament was ready to pass a measure of moderate Parliamentary Reform. But the noble Lords opposite had thought proper, instead of carrying such a measure, to dissolve that Parliament, and a new Parliament was called under a degree of excitement in the public mind such as had never before been witnessed. The consequence was, that the excitement had continued ever since, and it had been kept up by the strong opinion put forward and entertained, that it was the King who
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wished for Parliamentary Reform in the manner proposed by this Bill. He believed it was no such thing. His opinion was, that the King followed the advice of his servants, but he believed that it was the idea thus engendered that the King wished for Reform which rendered it difficult that there should not be some Reform. It was not, however, to be supposed, that the King took any interest in the subject. He had no doubt that when this opinion reached the country, they would think like him; and he entertained no doubt, whatever, that if it were supposed that the King's mind was altered, the noble Earl opposite would not be able to pass this Bill. Indeed, he was sure from experience, that, if the nation, on any great constitutional question were not convinced that the King would go through with the Ministers, it would be impossible for any set of Ministers to carry any such measure. He would also wish noble Lords to attend particularly to this. The opinion of the gentlemen of the country—he spoke from knowledge with respect to the southern counties, and from sure report as to other counties generally—but he did say, that the opinion of the gentlemen of the landed property, and of the learning of the country was against this Bill. The Bill was, on the other hand, supported by the noble Lords opposite, and by their adherents, certainly not a numerous class; it was also supported by all the dissenters from the Church of England, and by all who wished it should pass, as a means of their attaining votes; but he would repeat, that it was, in fact, opposed to the sentiments of all the gentlemen, of the yeomanry, and of the middling classes throughout the country. Yes, he would say, there was a change of opinion, and that the best part of the public were not desirous of the Bill, but were, on the contrary, apprehensive of its effects. But they did not hear of this, and why? Because no gentleman in the country could go to a public meeting and speak his sentiments secure from the attacks of the mobs. Another ground on which the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) said that they ought to read the Bill a second time was, that they should endeavour to amend it; but if the noble Earl found that would be difficult last year, would it not be more difficult now? He had that morning had a note put into his hand of

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the anomalies of the Bill, which was the result of a paper laid before the House of Commons even since the passing of the Bill, and its being sent up to this House and a persual of it would show that there was nothing they could do which would improve this Bill, and weed it of the gross errors with which it abounded. By Parliamentary Paper 232, being an abstract of the practical operation of the Bill, according to the new limits given to the several boroughs, it appeared that the borough of Clitheroe, which was partially disfranchised in schedule B, had a greater population than sixty places which were left untouched; another, Shaftesbury, than fifty-two; another, Wilton, than forty-six. Clitheroe had more houses than fifty-seven untouched boroughs; Wilton than fifty-six; Shaftesbury than fifty-four; and so on as to taxes. Christchurch, which was in schedule B, paid more assessed taxes than forty-five places not in the schedule, where of no less than nine were new-made boroughs; Wilton paid more than thirty-nine; Droitwich and Wallingford more than thirty-three, and so on, seven or eight other places being put into schedule B, which have larger constituencies than boroughs which were untouched. The reason that the difference in this class was not so great as in the population and houses was, that the arbitrary additions made to the boroughs were mostly of poor and scattered districts which did not add to the taxation in the same proportion. But the most important view of all was the number of 10 l. houses, the amount of the future constituency. Would it be credited that Hythe, partially disfranchised, would have more electors than fifty-five places not in schedule B, of which three were new creations; Morpeth than thirty-seven; Dartmouth than thirty-four; Wallingford than thirty-two, and so on. And Knaresborough and Tavistock were kept untouched, while seven or eight other boroughs, having a greater constituency, were placed in schedule B. Let their Lordships compare Christchurch and Tavistock as their respective merits were set forth in the paper which he would read to them. The noble Duke then quoted the following document:—

Tavistock.

Chrischurch.

Difference.

Population

5,602

6,087

485

Houses

821

1,354

553

10 l. ditto

380

400

20

Taxes

1,283

2,066

783

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10 Boroughs in Schedule B, sending 10 Members.

10 Boroughs which are to send 20 Members.

10 l. Houses

4,084

2,944

Population

71,196

42,666

From this it would appear that the difference was nearly two to one in favour of the boroughs not sending Members. This document had been laid on the Table since the Bill had passed the House of Commons, and their Lordships might be told, and, indeed, he was at that moment told, it was an argument why they should go into Committee. [Cheers.] Before his noble friend (Lord Wharncliffe) rejoiced in his cheer, let him (the Duke of Wellington) remind his noble friend of what he had said last year. It was this—"Many persons had voted for the second reading of the Bill in the House of Commons, in hopes of amending it afterwards in Committee; but every person who had the slightest experience in Parliament well knew, that when a bill, brought in by the Government, was read a second time, it was a matter of extreme difficulty to make any alterations in it in Committee."* His noble friend's parliamentary experience reached to the House of Commons as well as to that House. His noble friend knew the difficulty even in the other House; and he believed there was no instance of any extensive alterations ever having been made in Committee in that House in any bill introduced and supported by Ministers. They had the experience of the noble Secretary of State opposite, both in the last and the present Session, as to the absolute impossibility of making any great alteration in a Committee of this House. Only a few days ago they had a Committee upstairs upon a bill which they found they could not alter; and but the other day they had the Pluralities Bill, which had been recommitted half-a-dozen times, and he had himself waited more than once for three hours attending upon it, but it was found impossible to introduce any alteration. If this were the case generally, how was it to be effected when the alterations particularly wished went to the very foundation of the measure? But there was another view of this case which was highly important to his noble friends (Lords Harrowby and Wharncliffe), and those who acted with them, and wished for the second reading of the Bill. The noble
* Hansard's Debates, Third Series, vol. vii. p. 980.

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Earl opposite (Earl Grey) had, it was true, shown more moderation and more courtesy upon the present than upon the former occasion; but then the noble Earl had not held out any hope of agreeing to alterations in the Committee. The noble Earl had, as he heard, held out hopes to a rev. Prelate that alterations might be introduced, but he was sure his noble friends would find when they were in Committee, that their objections would be met, no doubt, with great politeness and attention, but no alteration would they have conceded to them. Under these circumstances, he hoped that noble Lords would not follow the example of his noble friends, and, as they had changed, that noble Lords would not vote for them this year as they had the last. With respect to what had fallen from another noble Earl (the Earl of Haddington) who had pursued the same course last year, but who last night had come to a different conclusion, and asked was there no hope of a compromise? He would ask, had not these noble Lords been trying to compromise for the last six mouths? if they had not succeeded in that time, what encouragement was there to him (the Duke of Wellington) or others to follow their example? He, and those who thought with him, knew the consequences of the Bill, and that it would consign the country to evils which it could not survive with prosperity. He knew that it was a Bill which, in its present state, ought not to pass, and he would ask his noble friends, had they been able to advance one single step in their compromise from last October to the present day? If this were the case, he hoped that those who intended to act with his noble friends would understand, that there was no more chance of compromise on the present than on the last occasion; and that if they agreed to the second reading, they agreed to a Bill under which the country could not be governed. He begged, then, that noble Lords would look to the responsibility they took upon themselves in giving support to this Bill. The Ministers were now decidedly responsible for that Bill—they were responsible for the election of the House of Commons that had passed it—they were responsible for the excitement which had caused both these events, and they were moreover responsible for any evil consequences which might occur if this House rejected it. Those noble Lords who changed their sentiments,
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followed as they were by many who had voted against the Bill the last time, would partake, he begged them to understand, of a large portion of this serious responsibility, and the country would look to them to answer for whatever might occur. He had been hitherto considering the misfortune he laboured under in differing from his noble friends, but he should now come to the Bill itself. His objection to the Bill had always been, that it went to overturn the system of Representation of the country—that it destroyed all the ancient franchises unnecessarily for the purpose of Reform, and disfranchised totally fifty-six boroughs, and partially thirty boroughs—that it totally revolutionized the Representation of Scotland, for it was impossible to consider the present without reference to the Scotch Bill, and that it put an end to all those arrangements which, only three years ago, had been entered into for the final settlement of the Catholic Question. The noble Earl (Earl Grey) had yesterday challenged him to make out that this Bill was revolutionary. What he had always said was, that it had a revolutionary tendency, and he thought it had a tendency so strong in that way that it must lead to revolution. The noble Earl had said there was no violence, but it was well understood that a revolution might be effected by law as well as by violence, and the present was not a case in which violence could have any effect even were it had recourse to. One of the great and leading objections in his mind to this measure was, that it was one which went to destroy that most invaluable principle of our existing Constitution the principle of prescription, which sanctioned the descent and secured the possession of all kinds of property in this country. This Bill went to destroy a number of boroughs—some holding by prescription, some by charter—and for no reason whatever, except that such was the will of the Minister of the day. There was no man who possessed property under the advantages which the present system afforded to all holders of property, but must run a great risk as to the security of that property under such a state of things as this measure, if it should be passed, was sure to introduce into this country. Not was this the only objection in this regard which he had to this Bill. He had shown to their Lordships, from the paper which he had already read, that nothing coup be more arbitrary than the manner in

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which some boroughs were deprived of the right of voting altogether, others deprived of it in part, and in which the right of voting was conferred on other places by the same measure. Undoubtedly nothing could be more arbitrary than the manner in which the franchise was conferred by this Bill in some of those boroughs. Instead of the existing rights of voting in cities and boroughs, this Bill went to establish one uniform right of voting in all municipal elections throughout the country, which must inevitably tend to make the constitution of Parliament a complete democracy. The noble Earl near to him had said, that the uniformity of the right of voting, which this Bill would establish, was, in his mind, one of the benefits of the measure. Did that noble Earl never hear of Unions carrying on a correspondence with one another in different parts of the country? Did he never hear of such Unions corresponding with one another on political topics, and on topics connected with the elections, as well as on topics connected with trade and commerce? But those objections which he had stated to the Bill referred principally to the municipal towns of a smaller size. When they came to consider the larger towns, it would be found that the right of voting which this measure would establish there, would amount to neither more nor less than Universal Suffrage. In fact, this Bill would in such places, extend the right of voting to mere lodgers—to men who paid only 3s. 10 d. a-week, or 7d. a-night, for their lodging. Such a residence would, to such men in the larger municipal towns, give the right of voting at elections of Members of Parliament; and such was the constituency they were to establish if they should go into Committee on this Bill, for their Lordships would not forget that the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government took occasion to tell them in the course of his speech last night, that nothing must be done to destroy the efficiency of that part of the Bill. He would wish to lead their lordships a little further in order to consider what must be the operation of such a constituency as that in the elections of Members of Parliament. The noble Earl had told them that men possessing property in those boroughs must continue to have political influence in the elections there, and that was one of his arguments in support of this part of the Bill. But
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he would appeal to their Lordships whether their own experience in matters of that description confirmed the correctness of that statement? It was true, that in some of those boroughs, Noblemen possessing large properties in the neighbourhood of them would possess still a great and paramount influence. He begged to observe that, in point of fact, one of the consequences of this measure in that respect would be, that several of those places would be left in the hands of Noblemen entirely, so as greatly to increase, beyond what it was at present, that influence which they possessed with respect to the formation of every government which could be carried on by the King of England. But generally speaking, in those towns, it would be the demagogue, and not the gentleman of property, who would possess the influence over the elections there. The latter could not command such an influence, unless through the means of an expenditure which it would be impossible for him to support. But the demagogue could obtain it by other means, and it was by demagogues that such places would be represented in Parliament. He begged their Lordships to observe, what would be the effect of such a state of things in the constitution of the House of Commons, and he begged to ask them whether, with such men, the Representatives of those boroughs, it would be possible to carry on any thing like a government, or a steady system of policy, through the means of that assembly. He knew that, according to the Constitution of this country, a Member of the House of Commons, when he came there, was a member for all parts of England, and not a Representative for the particular town or place for which he had been elected: he was in fact looked upon as a member of a common council for all parts of England. That had been hitherto the meaning which was attached to the character of a Member of the Commons House of Parliament. But the case would be widely different should this Bill be passed, and Members of Parliament subjected to a system of instruction on the part of their constituents. That system already existed in parts of England, and more especially in the metropolis, and in the borough of Southwark. Their Lordships would remember, that an hon. and gallant Officer, formerly connected with the party of the noble Lords opposite, had been obliged to

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retire from the representation of Southwark last summer, because he had happened to differ with his constituents; and that a worthy Alderman had, in a similar mariner been reprimanded by his constituents in the city of London, for a similar offence. What, then, was to be expected hereafter should the system of this Bill be established in this country? Why, that every Member of the House of Commons would become the mere delegate of his constituents, instead of the Representative of the people at large. It had been well observed by his noble friend near him in his speech last night, that such Representatives would, in each particular case, merely consult the wishes of their respective constituents, and act upon them, instead of consulting together according to the best of their judgments, for the common good. And here he could not avoid referring to a letter written by a gentleman in the course of last Autumn to some of his constituents in this neighbourhood, in which he not only declared that the constituents were to advise and point out the course which their Representatives should pursue in Parliament, but in which he went still further; for, in this document, addressed to the parish of St. George's-in-the-East, the writer told them, that there ought to be an union in every parish of all the middle and working classes, and that the object of them should be, in the first instance, the protection of persons and property; and, secondly, in order to be ready to express the opinion of the parish upon any public measure, and, in case the Ministers or the House of Commons should be lukewarm, that such unions would be ready to urge them on to the performance of their duty. The extract which he had just read to their Lordships, was taken from a letter written by one of the great advocates of the Reform Bill, not for the sake of the Reform Bill itself, but because it would lead to something further. That letter afforded a proof of the kind of system which would be put into operation with respect to the Members of the House of Commons should this Bill be passed. Let them for a moment compare the system this Bill would establish with the system of representation which had so long existed in this country, and under which this country had been raised to such an eminence of glory, and power, and prosperity. They had, under the existing system, the county represent-
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ation, and the representation in cities and boroughs. The county representation consisted principally of freeholders, and the Members for counties represented not only the lower classes, but the middle and higher orders. The Representatives for the great maritime towns, and for the larger description of towns in the interior of the country, represented likewise the lower and middle classes. The Representatives for the potwallopping boroughs, for the scot-and-lot boroughs, and for the single borough of Preston, where he believed the franchise was vested in the inhabitants at large, represented the lowest orders of the people; and in that manner this borough representation represented all classes and descriptions of persons who had any thing to do with the business transacted in the House of Commons. Instead of that system which had raised this country to its present elevation, they were called upon to establish by this Bill a system of elections which would be confined to one single class of the community; and, as the county representation would be no check upon that class of persons, the voters in the counties being mostly of' the same description, and as the united representation of Scotland and of Ireland would be no check upon them, such a system would lead at once to a complete democracy. Such was the system which they were called upon to establish in lieu of the Constitution which at present existed, and under which all those classes and interests in this country that ought to be represented were really represented in Parliament; and, under such a system as that, it was pretended that they would be able to carry on the general business of the nation. He would here beg to call their Lordships' attention to the changes which had taken place in the Government of this country in the course of the last century, and more especially in the latter portion of that period, and what improvement had taken place in that time in the popular system in this country. His noble friend behind him had last night truly stated, that the influence of the Crown had been decreasing from the period of the Revolution up to the year 1782; and that it had been still further diminishing from that period up to the present time, till at last there were not more than fifty persons in the house of Commons holding public offices. In that period, and more especially in latter years, the influence of the

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Crown in that respect had been greatly diminished. First of all there had been a large reduction of all such kind of offices, and in the next place, in consequence of the consolidation of the different Boards of Customs, Excise, and other public departments, the influence which had been formerly possessed by the Crown had been taken out of its hands, and placed in the hands of the public. Their Lordships must, therefore, see that the influence derived by the Crown from all such offices had been greatly diminished, and possibly to a greater degree than it ought to have been for the purposes of the Government of the country. With the influence of the Crown thus diminished, if a Bill of this description should be passed, it would be impossible to carry on the Government of the country. Another important consideration to be attended to in the discussion of this measure related to the changes which had taken place in this country in the course of the last four years. In the year 1828, they repealed the Test Act, and the effect of this measure was, to bring into operation a large body of electors, who had, of course, much influence on the election. In the year 1829, the Catholic Bill was passed, and that measure, too, was calculated to have a most important effect upon the constitution of Parliament. Now they should give time to those measures, in order to see the effect which they would produce on the constitution of Parliament and of the country, before they proceeded to pass a still further and more extensive measure, the effect of which would be, to introduce still greater alterations into the Constitution of the country. There could be no doubt that those measures to which he had just alluded, must have a considerable effect on the elections, and more especially when any measure like this measure of Parliamentary Reform was adopted to the extent contemplated in this Bill. "There can be no doubt (continued the noble Duke) that there is a general desire in the country—I do not deny the existence of it, for it is stated in all the addresses and all the petitions on the subject—that there is a general desire in the country that some Reform in Parliament should be taken into consideration, to do away with the abuses in the system of election of Members of the House of Commons. Without inquiring into the cause if the fact be as I have stated, I believe that no
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one will dispute that it is the duty of Parliament to proceed gradually in making amendments in the Representation. We should consider maturely every step that we take—we should not proceed all at once to do every thing, we should go on gradually and deliberately, and thus in process of time, we might arrive even at the measure which has been recommended by the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government. But that must be in process of time. After a considerable length of time has elapsed, and after we have maturely considered every step to be taken, and seen some, at least, of its consequences, it is only after we have done all that, that we can adopt a measure to the extent of that recommended by the noble Earl. This your Lordships must do, and do it gradually and slowly, if you desire to maintain the venerable monarchy under which the country has flourished for such a long time." He must further observe, that, if such a measure as this should be suddenly and at once passed, it would be impossible to conduct hereafter the Government of the country. They had been told, that it was necessary to bring this question to an early conclusion, because the trade, and commerce, and business of the country were suffering in consequence of delaying the settlement of it. Such was the statement of the noble Earl opposite. Now, he wished that those who stated that such inconveniences were felt at present in this country, would consider a little whether they were felt in consequence of the prospect of the passing of this Bill, or in consequence of the fear of losing it. That was a most important consideration in looking at this question. He was of opinion that, as soon as this Bill was proposed, and as soon as the excitement which it occasioned arose, a great portion of the expenditure ceased—that men ceased to lay out their money in great enterprises—that those who had previously lived to the full amount of their incomes, began now to consider it their interest to contract their expenditure, in order to make provision for a period of trouble and difficulty; and it was to those circumstances that he was disposed to attribute the want of commerce and of trade in the country. If they looked for a moment at the present situation of their neighbours, the French, they would behold precisely similar effects following from precisely similar causes, and precisely similar consequences pro-

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duced there that they had to complain of in this country. Those consequences, to be sure, had proceeded to a greater extent there than with us, because the excitement had continued for a longer period, and because the delirium had been carried to a greater extent; but he was certain that, if this Bill should be now passed, we should soon witness here similar effects. He complained of the present system of agitation and excitement because the evil effects of it fell principally on the lowest and poorest class of the community. That contraction of the expenditure to which he had alluded, no doubt, tended to diminish the comforts of the middle classes, but it tended directly to affect the very subsistence of the poor. It was on such grounds that he complained of the present system of agitation, that was carried on in this country. The noble Viscount, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had admitted in his speech last night, that he did not expect any relief to the distress of the country from this measure. It was, certainly, an extraordinary thing for a Minister, and especially, for a Secretary of the Home Department, to say, that he did not think, that in fact he was satisfied, that a measure of such immense consequence as this must be, would not tend to relieve any of the distresses of the country. Extraordinary, however, as that was, he would maintain, that, so far from relieving any portion of the distresses of this country, this measure tended very much to aggravate every one of them. But let them go a little further, and see whether this system would give them what it was said it would give them, a cheap Government. And here again he begged to call the attention to what was passing in another country. If their Lordships would take the trouble of examining into what had passed within the last two years in France, they would see that the French expenditure had been increased in that time fifty millions sterling beyond the usual expenditure. They would see that its ordinary Budget, notwithstanding the study that had been applied to be as saving as possible, exceeded the Budget of the former reigns—of the extravagant reign of the Bourbons—by the amount of ten millions sterling; and, besides this, there was the extraordinary expenditure of fifty millions in two years. Look at that, as a system of cheap Government, and their Lordships would see that it was
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quite impossible to agree with the senseless assertions made on that subject. Let their Lordships further see whether this Bill, supposing it to be passed, was likely to make the Government cheaper or better than it was now. Let them ask themselves, whether the civil Government would have more power to govern the country than it now possessed; whether it was possible that the Government could be carried on with a smaller proportion of military. He begged their Lordships to look at the transactions at Paris, in the course of the last two years, and see whether that had been the case. He was sure they could not think so, when they saw that, while Louis 18th and Charles 10th were on the Throne, they were enabled to maintain the peace of Paris with a gendarmerie of from 500 to 1,000 men; but that since the Revolution of July, the Government had not had less than 60,000 men once a month put into requisition to maintain the peace of the city. It the system now proposed was carried into execution, the result would be, to establish a similarly expensive military Government in this country. It was impossible that, under such circumstances, the Government of the country could be carried on as it was at present by the Civil Power aided by a small military force. In the course of the last year, events of a fearful character had occurred both in this country and in France—he alluded to what had taken place at Bristol and Lyons, and these showed the different power and efficiency of the existing Governments of England and France. The calamity at Bristol was at once put an end to, by less than 100 soldiers, as soon as an officer at the head of a military detachment was found to do his duty: whereas it required not less than 4,000 of the best troops in France, with the Minister of War and the Prince of the blood at their head, to quell, in the same time, the disturbances that had taken place at Lyons. If their Lordships would consider well the consequences of those differences, and the circumstances themselves, they would then be able to judge whether it was possible for them to expect to carry on the civil Government of England as hitherto under a system of Government such as they were going to establish if they should pass this Bill. He begged pardon for having trespassed so long on their Lordships. He had endeavoured to convince their Lordships that his noble

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friend (the Earl of Harrowby) was taking a course inconsistent with the opinions—the well-founded opinions—which he had expressed, with regard to the Reform Bill in October last, that his noble friend's taking such a course, was no reason why their Lordships should follow his example, and, by adopting the course which his noble friend recommended to them, involve themselves in all the responsibility of sanctioning the present measure; and he had finally endeavoured to convince their Lordships, and he trusted he had succeeded in the attempt, that the only safe course for them and for the country was, for them to reject this Bill on the second reading. There was one other point on which he wished to say a few words. He meant the measure of which his noble friend near him (the Duke of Buckingham) had given notice last night. If his noble friend should bring that measure forward, he (the Duke of Wellington) would certainly give it all the consideration which was due to his noble friend and to the measure itself, and he hoped their Lordships would do so too. He had no knowledge of the measure of his noble friend, except what could be derived from the notice he had given of it last night; nor was he previously aware that it was the intention of his noble friend to bring forward any measure of such a description. It appeared to him, as far as he could judge of the measure of his noble friend from the notice of it before their Lordships, that it was one founded on a different principle from that now before their Lordships.
The Earl of Haddington, in explanation, said, that when he used the word "compromise" in his speech last night, be had, perhaps, employed a word that was not exactly the best chosen. What he meant to do was, to express a hope that the noble Duke who had just spoken, and the noble Earl at the head of the Government, would go into the Committee in a spirit of conciliation and concession. As to what the noble Duke imagined, that he had something to do with negotiations, which the noble Duke supposed to have been going on for the last three months out of that House, he could assure the noble Duke that, if there had been such negotiations, he had had nothing to do with them.
Lord Granthamstated, that he should not detain the House more than a few moments; but the question now before them
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was one of such importance as to make him feel that it was his duty to break through the silence he had before observed on this question, and not to give a silent vote on this occasion. He had applied his mind with painful anxiety to the consideration of the subject—he was most anxious to alter, if he could, the vote he had given six months ago; however, he could not. He had then voted against the Bill, and he should be compelled to repeat that vote on the present occasion. It was a painful consideration for him to be obliged to do so, but he could not avoid it. He had then been anxious to see if he could concur with the reasons for sending the Bill into a Committee; he was equally anxious upon that subject now. The reason that induced him to say he could not consent to send the Bill into Committee was, because he thought the chance of amending it there was hopeless. It was true that the noble Earl at the head of the Government had told them that any suggestion from that side of the House would not be thrown away; but it was observable, that, both last night, and the night on which the noble Earl had introduced the Bill to their notice, he made the statement in a manner so guarded, and betrayed so much anxiety not to go too far, that he must candidly confess he had not much expectations of the good that would come from the Committee. From the beginning of the agitation of the question he did not think it had been quite treated with the openness and the candour it deserved. It was a question of great importance—it involved the interests of every class of the community, and yet it had been pushed on with a degree of violence such as had never before been shown with regard to any other great public business. Questions of great interest had heretofore been laid before Parliament, they had received much discussion, and when the decision of Parliament was hostile to the public sentiment at the time they had been deferred or re-considered. Important questions—such as the Slave Question and the Catholic Question—had been subject to repeated examination, and Parliament had dealt with them according to its deliberate opinion, and never before had that House been branded when it dissented from any such measures with merely uttering the whisper of a faction. The conduct which had been observed towards every one of those noblemen and gentle-

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men, who, in the fair discharge of their duty, had opposed this measure, had been he would assert, disgraceful to the country. A system of intimidation had prevailed from the first moment that the subject was agitated until the present. That system of intimidation was, indeed, different at one time from what it appeared at another. They were, in the first instance, threatened by anonymous miscreants with a visitation of brickbats and bludgeons. That threat had failed. But now the threatening assumed a more formidable character. The intimidation that was at present resorted to directed their attention to future consequences. It was that feeling, he presumed, which had induced his noble friend (Lord Wharncliffe), who had changed his sentiments on this subject, to give a vote different from that which he had given last year. Future consequences, it seemed, were considered by him as likely to give a more severe blow than that which could be inflicted by brickbats. He contended that a scheme of intimidation had been employed, to make this question succeed from the very beginning to the present hour. To himself, personally, he could assure their Lordships the decision of this question was a matter of perfect indifference. He never had had any thing to do with an election in his life. He had no relations to provide for by the exercise of parliamentary influence. He was not one of those "liveried lacqueys," to use one of the phrases which had been invented to insult their Lordships, who trafficked in parliamentary patronage. He repeated, that he was completely independent. It was a matter of perfect indifference to him personally, how they dealt with this Bill. But viewing it as a measure fraught with danger to the Constitution—seeing so many risks of evil connected with it—and being quite hopeless of amending it—he felt himself compelled, as a man of honour, in the discharge of a great public duty, to give his decided vote against it.
Lord Wharnclifferegretted very deeply that, on this occasion, he felt himself called upon to differ from the opinion of his noble friend (the Duke of Wellington) who had recently addressed the House. He must first observe, that the question on which they were then deliberating was not with respect to the Bill itself, but with respect to the mode in which they were about to treat it. He asserted, that it
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must be read a second time, unless they had made up their minds to encounter greater difficulties than they had encountered before; and his belief was, that, on the contrary, if they read the Bill a second time—if they only gave it their consideration—they would enable themselves, if not to get rid of it altogether, at least to introduce into it many changes that they might think desirable. At all events, they would, by such a course, be enabled to consider its provisions thoroughly, and satisfy the people by doing so. Allusion had been made by his noble friend to a speech which he had delivered in March, 1831. He had then said, that if the Parliament were dissolved, the House of Commons, in a new Parliament, would be a house of delegates. So he said then; and be would assert now, that the House of Commons was, to all intents and purposes, a house of delegates to pass this Bill of Reform. His noble friend had said, that "we ought to call on Ministers to place us in the same situation in which we stood before the bringing in of the Reform Bill." How could this be done? Let his noble friend look to what had passed since this measure was first introduced. Let him consider what had occurred in the last six months. Had not this question of Reform, after the dissolution of Parliament, made such a stride that it could not now be repressed? Neither Ministers, nor the noble Duke himself, great as were his abilities, could alter the feeling which now prevailed. No effort could bring the country back to the situation in which it was placed prior to the last election. "But," said the noble Duke, "the House of Commons is so constituted that they will pass many bills of this kind. I do not wonder at it," He (Lord Wharncliffe) believed, that the Commons would pass many such bills if their Lordships refused to consider the present. They might retard, for a time, the progress of a Reform measure, but they could not throw back the feeling which had called for it. The present Bill had been twice carried by great majorities in the House of Commons; it was approved of by the Crown, and it was backed by the people. When they saw this support given to the Bill—a support greater than ever they had seen on any former occasion—did not that afford a sufficient reason why they should permit this Bill to go into Committee? His noble friend said, further, that the present diffi-

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culties might be surmounted by Government; certainly, he thought the Government were the cause of the existing difficulty; but he must deny that now they had the power of obviating it. By adopting the course which his noble friend advocated, one of two things must be effected—either the Ministry must advise his Majesty to send down a message recommending them not to discuss the question of Parliamentary Reform, or the Parliament be dissolved. In case of the latter event, what would be the consequence? He believed that, if Parliament were now dissolved, they would, by a new election, have a worse House of Commons than at present. It was to avoid this that he called on their Lordships—that he called on every man who had not set his face against all Reform, not to throw back upon the House of Commons a measure which had been thus sent up to their Lordships; but to try whether they could not so improve it as to make it agreeable had all parties. The noble Duke ad said, that before the revolution in France and Belgium, in 1830, there was no such thing as a call for Reform. Good God! how could the noble Duke make such an assertion? Did he not recollect the proceedings on the East Retford question? Did he not call to mind the increasing minorities on the Reform question? Did he not know that the Reform question was, the last time, only defeated by a majority of forty-eight? He (Lard Wharncliffe) had said, "Let us give the elective franchise to Birmingham, instead of East Retford." That proposition was resisted, and the consequence was, that the question had come before them in a new form. The fact, unfortunately, was, that the noble Duke was entirely wrong on this subject. The noble Duke had passed a great part of his life in the glorious service of his country, and, in common with every Englishman, he felt grateful to him for his exertions; but still he must say, that the noble duke had not witnessed the progress of political feeling, in this country. He said this with all respect for the noble Duke, who, he was sure, would not suspect him of saying anything that could be personally unpleasing to him. He would, however, say, that he conceived himself to be a better witness of passing events in this country than the noble Duke was. He (Lord Wharncliffe) had been in Parliament for a great number of years; he
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had represented large bodies of people, and, as long as he could recollect, this question of Parliamentary Reform had been proceeding. The sense and feeling of a grievance in that respect, whether right or wrong, had constantly prevailed. He recollected no time in which it could be said to have ceased. It was a common mistake, not only with his noble friend, but with other eminent statesmen, and, amongst the rest, with his late friend, Mr. Canning, to think that the people were not anxious with respect to the question of Reform. He had heard Mr. Canning say, when there was a lull on the subject, that the people thought nothing about Parliamentary Reform. But he (Lord Wharncliffe) judged very differently. Living in the midst of a great population, he knew what their feelings were, and he said to Mr. Canning," You are mistaken; that lull is deceptive. The question will arise again, and, in the end, something must be done." The result proved that he was right. The noble Duke had said, that if the King's name had not been used, there would not have been such a loud and general cry for Reform. He admitted the fact to a certain extent, and he disapproved of the use of the King's name; but still he could not conceal from himself that there was a strong feeling in the country in favour of Reform, aggravated probably, but certainly not created, by the belief that his Majesty was also favourable to it. He believed, however, that, if their Lordships would consent to read the Bill a second time, and to go into Committee with it, there was so much good sense in the people of this country, that, if they afterwards rejected it, they would be held justified, but that if they refused to give it a second reading, and sent it back to the House of Commons, he would tell them, if they did so, that, one day or other, this measure, or perhaps a worse and more sweeping measure, must pass. For his own part, he believed that the constitution of Parliament was the best that ever was devised, or put together, for the purposes of legislation; but it was not sufficient that he should be satisfied of that fact, it was necessary that the people should be, also, satisfied of it. It was not sufficient that the noble Duke and himself—it was not sufficient that many wise men held that opinion—it was, as he had before said, necessary that the people should entertain the same feeling. The

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noble Duke had quoted the speech made by him in October last with respect to the difficulty of dealing with this Bill in Committee. He still adhered to the same opinion. He was aware of the difficulties which were to be encountered; but their Lordships must not, on that account, refuse to assent to the second reading of the Bill. Those who were not opposed to all Reform might endeavour to make the Bill better than it was; and, in his opinion, it was not a matter of impossibility to improve the Bill in such a manner that all, or almost all, would be willing to agree to it. The refusal to consider the Bill in Committee, on account of its principle, appeared to him now to be impolitic. He would beg the noble Duke, and other noble Lords, to consider well the force of that argument, and the extent to which it might hereafter be pushed. Was it right that they, as one body of the Legislature, should declare that they could not in Committee consider a measure affecting the vital interests of the country?—that they could not in Committee alter its provisions? If such a position were once admitted, then they must be considered as a body incapable of framing laws themselves, or of altering laws that came from the House of Commons, but having the power merely of assenting to, or dissenting from, any measures that were sent up to them from the other House. That argument, he contended, was an argument of a most dangerous nature. It was said, that he and another noble Lord, who now meant to vote for the second reading, would thereby relieve Ministers from the responsibility which at present rested with them on account of this measure. He could not see how they, by so voting, removed that responsibility. Were they the persons who brought in the measure? Certainly not. What, then, was the responsibility which they incurred? All they did was, that they allowed the Bill to be brought in, and to be submitted to a Committee for examination, to see whether it could be so altered as to form an efficient law. If he permitted the Bill to be introduced, and to go through an additional stage, in the hope of effecting beneficial alterations in it, what responsibility, he asked, did he incur? If, in the Committee, he found that it could not be beneficially altered, he should then know how to act. How then should he stand before the country? He should stand before the
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country thus; that he had shown a disposition to listen to the claim which had been made upon the Legislature. He wished to proceed in that way, following his own plain sense of duty, and by that alone would be be guided. The responsibility, he averred, did not rest with him, nor with those who might act with him, but remained, and must ever remain, with the Government, for having brought forward this measure. It was their Lordships' duty to give this Bill a second reading, for the circumstances of the country, and the feelings of the country, were changed, and materially changed, since a similar measure was last before them. He would show that to their Lordships in the first place; secondly, he would point out the effects of concession as opposed to rejection; and, lastly, he would endeavour to show their Lordships the inevitable result of obstinacy. The effect of rejection, in this instance, would be, in his opinion, to place all those who voted against the second reading of the Bill in a perilous situation with the country. Though several of those who formerly voted against the measure stated, both at that time and immediately afterwards, that they were not opposed to all Reform, still it could not be denied, that, in spite of those declarations, the result of their vote had been the introduction of a feeling that they could not agree to any Reform whatsoever, or, at all events, to any effectual Reform. In giving his vote on that occasion, he was anxious, as many others were, to give the country an opportunity of reconsidering the subject. The country had been appealed to, and he thought that the appeal had totally failed. Those who had voted with him were not supported by the country, as he supposed they would have been. He must admit, that there had been no re-action, and he conceived that a second rejection of this measure might lead to very evil consequences. Addresses had been presented to the Crown, and petitions had been laid before both Houses of Parliament, every one of them, without exception, calling for the enactment of this measure, or, if they deviated from that point at all, they demanded a Bill of a more extended kind. How, then, were they to meet this claim? That there must be Reform was quite evident; but, up to yesterday, no noble Lord had thrown out a single idea on the subject. No one intimated what ought to be done, until the noble Duke (Buckingham) yes-

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terday stated his opinion on the subject. But he would tell the noble Duke that the Bill which he proposed came too late. If it were intended to do good, it should, at least, have been simultaneous with the present measure. It was too late to introduce it when the feelings of the public mind were wrought up to such a state of excitement. But the noble Duke and his friends said, "we cannot read this Bill a second time, because we object to its principle." Now, he would say, that every one of the principles contained in the Bill was to be found in the measure which the noble Duke intended to bring forward. He knew no reason why the Bill should not be considered in Committee. He could not conceive why schedule A and schedule B might not be altered there. In Committee the whole question would be open to them. "But," said the noble Duke, "there is this distinction in my measure—I don't disfranchise any boroughs." Now, if the noble Duke combined two or more boroughs together, and, where at present four Members were returned, allowed only two, if that were not disfranchisement, he did not know what the meaning of the word was. If, however, the noble Duke were afforded the opportunity of bringing forward his measure, he would give to it every consideration in his power. But that circumstance should not divert him from voting for the investigation of the present Bill in Committee. The vote of October had placed their Lordships in this situation—that the country looked upon them as masters or dictators, who would not give to the people that which, rightly or wrongly he would not say, they now claimed. He felt that that vote, though it might have displeased the country, had yet been the means of increasing the respect of the people towards them, inasmuch as it showed them that their Lordships acted from an independdent feeling. The people were glad to see that their Lordships asserted their right to maintain their own opinion on this subject, and that they would not allow themselves to be influenced by low and vulgar intimidation, or by that higher species of intimidation to which the noble Lord who last addressed them had alluded. If it were true, as had been stated over and over again, that the noble Lord opposite had the power in his hands of carrying this measure, and that he had refrained from using it, such conduct, in his opin-
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ion, reflected very great credit on the noble Earl. If this measure were finally carried by a proceeding of the sort to which he had alluded, that, in itself, he conceived, would constitute a revolution. If that House was not to have a free voice in the discussion on this subject—if, because it hesitated to adopt a Bill sent up by the House of Commons, it was to be swamped by new Members; if so violent a measure were to be taken, that House would become an assembly hereafter to be despised. But he would again ask their Lordships, was not this measure a fit one to be maturely considered in Committee? Any Minister that put forward such a measure as this, incurred, they must all admit, the greatest responsibility ever encountered by man; but that formed no reason why they should not give due attention to the measure. They ought to take care that they did not incur any responsibility by refusing to consider this Bill, when they could, by a very easy course, avoid that responsibility. They should recollect, not only that the House of Commons, but that the Crown also, approved of this measure. It would not be wise, therefore, to reject it without giving it that consideration which its great importance deserved. He assured their Lordships that the feeling of the country was now entirely changed. They had not now to apprehend any of that sort of violence which they before dreaded. A calm had come over the public mind—a lull in that storm of passion had occurred; but this was the very reason why they should now act—the very reason why they should take advantage—why they should now deal with the Bill before them differently from that of last year. They had no longer to encounter the cry of "the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill;" and they had now an opportunity given to them, which might never again return to them, of moderating this measure in some degree to their wishes. He was satisfied that it was hopeless to think of getting rid of the question of Reform altogether. Nay, he would say more, that, whatever Government might be in power, it would have not only to bring forward a measure of Reform, but a measure of Reform on the very principles of the Bill now before them. Let them consider what those principles were. They must not look for them in the clauses of the Bill, as some of their Lordships seemed to imagine, but in the preamble of the Bill.

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He said, then, that any one who did not oppose Reform altogether, must grant it upon the principles contained in that preamble. To prove this, he begged to ask, what were the abuses of the present system talked of, not only by Reformers, but by anti-Reformers? No one could deny that the first and foremost of them all was, the existence of boroughs which, whether rightly or wrongly, were supposed to be nomination boroughs, which sent Members to Parliament independent of any constituency whatever. The principle of Reform, then, was, to get rid of a certain number of these boroughs. He agreed with the noble Lord, the late President of the Board of Control, who addressed the House last night, in lamenting the loss of those boroughs, and doubted whether any scheme of Representation that might be devised could put them in possession of so much useful service as was afforded by those boroughs. But again he said, they were not to deceive themselves upon this point. The word had gone forth, those boroughs had become an object of detestation to the people (whether rightly or not was another question), who now thought them places which made the House of Commons an assembly of people who disposed of their property and drew their money from their pockets, without their having any control over their choice into that House. This, in the times they now lived, would no longer be endured, and, more or less, every Member of the House of Commons must in a certain degree depend upon the people. It was their Lordships' duty now to regulate that dependence as far as in them lay, but upon some description of constituency, he would venture to predict, whatever might be the issue of this Bill, every Member of the House of Commons must in future depend. The next point was, the enfranchisement of the great towns. This was almost universally given up as a disputed point; scarcely any man, not even the noble Duke near him, venturing to say that those towns ought not to return Members to Parliament. After having admitted these two principles—disfranchisement and enfranchisement—was it possible to say, that the constituency could remain in its present state? To show the impossibility of it, he would only refer to the town of Bath. The Members for that place were returned by the very small body of persons who constituted the Corporation, who were said to be
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much under the influence of one noble Lord. Could any one believe that, whilst nomination boroughs were disfranchised, and representatives were given to large towns, such a city as Bath should be suffered to remain under such a corporation as now governed its elections? He was no Reformer; but, if the boroughs were to be destroyed, large cities could not consistently be suffered to remain under small Corporations. The next principle of the Bill was, to diminish the expense of elections. He did not say that the provisions of the Bill for registrations, &c. would effect that object; but he apprehended that none of his noble friends would say that it was not a desirable object to be obtained. Certain he was, that all who had suffered by the expenses of an election, and particularly of a county election, would feel, however inadequate they might consider the means here taken to diminish the expense of elections, that they ought to be diminished. He, for one, had always been of that opinion, and still retained it. The noble Duke, and many other noble Lords, had only looked at the effects which they supposed would follow the rejection of this Bill, as being the same which took place in October, on their Lordships' rejection of that which was under consideration last. They had talked of riots, and of the possibility of civil war, and upon the duty of the Government to put any attempts of that kind down. No doubt that such was the duty of Government, and great blame would attach to it did it not, under any circumstances, put down any such proceedings. But that was what they had not now to apprehend. They must consider that there had been, for some time, a growing dislike and jealousy in the minds of the people towards their Lordships' House—feelings, which originated in their belief that their Lordships were acting to suit their own purposes and views, and not with any regard to the interests of the community at large. That was a feeling which their Lordships would find it difficult to remove. The House of Lords had, upon many occasions, refused, over and over again, to pass bills sent up to them by the House of Commons. Their Lordships did so in the case of the Catholic Relief Bill more than once; but at last they passed it. He did not mean to say that, if they had thought fit again to reject it—if they had been so unwise as to adopt that course—that they might not have done so. They

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would have had the support, if not of the majority, yet certainly of a very large portion, of the people of this country. But how would the matter stand with them if they refused to pass this Bill? They would not have a House of Commons nearly divided in opinion, but a House of Commons which had twice sent them up this Bill, backed by large majorities. Would they have the people, or even a portion of the people, on their side? What could they depend upon to support them in their opposition to the House of Commons? He entreated them to consider of this matter, and to consult the persons with whom they were in the habit of living, to ascertain whether the country was prepared to back their rejection of this Bill? He knew that there were a few, out of both Houses of Parliament, upon whom no responsibility rested, ready to urge the most violent measures—ready to call on both Houses to stand stoutly and firmly; but who, when called upon for their support, invariably slunk into corners, leaving those, who had been credulous enough to believe in their silly boasting, to bear all the odium of what they themselves had urged. There might be such people who told them, in their private communication, and in newspapers—"Resist, and we will support you." But where would they be found when wanted? But their Lordships were told that, if they agreed to the second reading of this Bill, they granted the principle of it; and the word principle seemed absolutely to frighten their Lordships. But, because he or any other noble Lord might vote for the second reading, it could not be said that they were bound to vote for the 10 l. clause or schedule A. They pledged themselves to no such thing. All they pledged themselves to was, to consider the 10 l. clause and schedule A in the Committee. He agreed that no man could vote for the second reading who was not willing to concede Parliamentary Reform of some kind or ocher; but they might agree to the second reading, and afterwards deal with the Bill as they pleased. His noble friend, the late President of the Board of Control, last night made a speech which he could not sufficiently admire, in defence of the borough system. It was by far the best defence of that system he had ever heard made, and he could not help feeling sorry that that speech had not been given at an earlier period of these discussions, when it might possibly have
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done some good. But now he must say of it as he did of the Reform Bill of the noble Duke (Buckingham), that it came all too late. The public feeling on the subject of these boroughs was too strong to be resisted, and took away that respect from the House of Commons which it ought to inspire; and, whatever advantages that system might have, he was afraid that, even if it were now continued, it would not operate on the Government of the country as heretofore, but produce more evil than good. It was undoubtedly true that they afforded the great advantage of returning eminent men, who could not obtain a seat in Parliament by other means; but it was better to find a remedy for what he admitted was a great loss, than to endeavour to uphold a system which had become so repugnant to the feelings of the people, and had been so unequivocally condemned by public opinion. He thought a lesson might be read on this subject in the last fifty years, not unworthy of their Lordships' notice. He begged them to look back to the events connected with the American war. Early in their attempt to tax America, able persons in this country warned the Government of the consequences of the course it was entering upon, and begged it to desist. They, at the present day, might marvel at the manner in which the Government fruitlessly continued that struggle. Its end was a great loss of blood and treasure on our part, but it insured independence on the part of the Americans. Early in the contest conciliation might have brought about something of an accommodation; but, in spite of repeated warnings, they refused to take measures of conciliation, and America was lost to us. Let them look also to the struggle which took place in Ireland, with respect to commercial freedom. It was refused over and over again, but at last the Government was compelled to yield it. Let them look at the Catholic Question. The Catholics thought, and thought justly, that they were entitled to political freedom. In theory, nothing could be objected to their claim, and their cause was advocated by the greatest statesmen, and the most powerful orators, including Mr. Pitt himself, which this country ever produced. Their Lordships refused to grant the demand of the Catholics; but what happened at last? Their Lordships taught the people of Ireland that the only way to

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attain their object was, to show some front—to show that they were determined to attain it. The people of Ireland did so, and they succeeded. What had the House obtained by the prolongation of the struggle? It had merely prevented any benefit being reaped from the concession. Had it been made earlier—if that which was right had been granted as soon as asked—if that which was recommended by the wisest of men had been adopted—their Lordships would have made of Ireland a grateful country; but their Lordships forced on agitation, and they had made an ungrateful country of it, and taught the people to use the power which their Lordships now found opposed to them. But was even that all that was likely to result from the refusal of the question now before them? Let them look at the effects of the resistance they had already made to it. Instead of increasing their power to resist, every effort had left them weaker than before, till at last they were left almost without the power even of surrender. This very Bill was a proof of what he had stated. A timely concession would at least have warded off for many years even the proposal of such a plan as was contained in this Bill; but no; they would yield nothing, for fear that the principle being conceded, they should never be able to stop. The consequences of this banking up of the waters had been, that they had become irresistible, and a large measure of Reform must now be granted. His noble friend (the Duke of Wellington) could not now agree with him, but he would venture to say, that the time was not far distant when even the noble Duke himself would confess that this question could no longer be postponed. He admitted that the country had flourished under the system they were about to abolish, but the question was, whether the people who were to be governed were satisfied to be any longer governed by it. The noble Duke said, that they had been asked to compromise, and wished to know what, after negotiating for six months, was the sort of compromise they had made? It was true that, in October last, a negotiation—or rather a conversation—took place (for the word "negotiation" did not properly express what was meant) between the noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey,) his noble friend behind him, (Lord Harrowby) and himself. He did not think the noble Earl would
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suppose it wrong in him to say thus much,—namely that the result of that negotiation, if his noble friend pleased so to call it, was, that they understood each other's views better than they did before, but, in point of fact, came to no satisfactory understanding. So the conferences broke off. But it was true that, since that time, the conversations between himself, his noble friend, and the noble Earl, had been resumed; but he could assure the noble Duke that, as to compromises, none was ever proposed by the Government, nor would either his noble friend or himself have assented to any. His noble friend and himself certainly proposed to make certain alterations in the Reform Bill, which they thought might render it, in some degree a safer measure; but he repeated that there was nothing like a compromise on either side. He appealed to the noble Earl opposite to say whether he did not state correctly what took place. He did not take blame or credit to himself for having been engaged in these conversations; but he must say, that it was not a matter to be ashamed of, either for his noble friend, the noble Earl, or himself, to see how far in conciliatory conversation they might be able to agree. In short, he would say, that nothing had taken place which could affect in ally degree, either their honour or their votes in that House. He blamed, quite as much as his noble friend who spoke last, his Majesty's Ministers for placing the House of Lords and the country in the situation they now occupied in reference to each other. When they came into office, he had certainly hoped, from the tone they adopted, and from the declarations they made, that although they were pledged to Reform the Commons House of Parliament, that that Reform would have been such a one as he could have agreed to. He had long since come to the conclusion, that they must give way in some degree on this subject, and therefore he did not oppose the Government. Again, after the Bill was brought in, he took an early opportunity, very much against the wishes of many of his noble friends on that side of the House, of stating his opinion of what would be the effect of bringing forward that fatal Bill, and the effect it had produced on his mind. He did so, for he thought, that even, if after the dissolution of Parliament his Majesty's Government had altered their plan so as to meet the views of those who were dis-

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posed to go a certain length in Reform, they might have avoided all the inconveniencies and dangers that had subsequently surrounded them. He styled this a fatal Bill; for he conceived that the effects which had resulted from it ever since the 1st of March, 1831, were such as it would take the country years to recover from—even if it ever recovered from them. Both the bringing forward of the Bill itself, and its protracted discussion, had been most detrimental to every interest in the country; the trailing interest, the manufacturing interest, the agricultural interest—in short all classes of the community—were now anxious to have this question settled in some shape or other. If he could believe for one single moment that his vote against the second reading would settle and put an end to this Reform Bill for ever, he would most cheerfully give that vote; and he was persuaded, that although many in the country might be disappointed, yet he felt convinced that the great body of the people, whatever they might think upon the subject of Reform, would be glad to have it even thus disposed of. But it was because he felt conscious that such could not be the effect of now throwing out this Bill that he should vote in favour of the second reading. To reject the Bill, would only he to put off the question for a short time, at the end of which they would find themselves in even a more difficult situation than they occupied at present. He entreated their Lordships to take this Bill into consideration. When it was introduced he was certain that a more moderate measure of Reform would have satisfied the greater part of those who were anxious upon the subject, and if proposed would have carried the votes of many of them who were not favourable to Reform at all. But the Government, as he feared it did upon other occasions, mistook the noise and clamour of the country for its real sense. They did not, in his opinion, behave as statesmen ought to do; but endeavoured to outrun the feelings of the country, and, by granting more than was necessary, to stop demand. The effect of that course had, however, been, to increase the demands of many who, if not so encouraged, would have been satisfied even with less. But upon Ministers rested the responsibility of this Bill. If it should prove hereafter to effect good, let them take the credit; but if all that was dreaded on that side of the House
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ensued, then let them take the blame, with the deep and bitter sorrow they could not but feel. He was most anxious, however, respecting the result of this measure, and felt that no resolution had ever, in the history of the country, been come to in that House so teeming with important consequences as that which would be come to upon this subject. Once more he entreated them to consider whether they would not at least receive this Bill in order to show the country that they were not adverse to all Reform, to consider whether it was consistent with wisdom and discretion to exercise that right of rejecting the Bill which the Constitution undoubtedly placed in their hands.
The cries of "adjourn, adjourn" became general at the conclusion of the noble Lord's speech.
The Earl of Winchilsea moved the adjournment of the Debate which was adjourned accordingly.