Sitting of 4 April 1832

MINUTES.
Bill brought in. By Mr. CRAMPTON, to continue for a limited time, the Acts for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors in Ireland.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. SHAW, of the several Hospitals in Ireland, for the Reception of Fever Patients only, receiving Public Aid either from Parliamentary Grant or from Local Assessment, with various particulars:—On the Motion of the SOLICITOR GENERAL, of the Duties performed by the present and former Secretaries of Bankrupts, before the passing of the Act constituting a Court of Bankruptcy, and of the Number of Hours in each Day in which they were respectively engaged in the Public Duties of the Office; and also a Return of the Number of Clerks and other Officers employed in the Secretary's Office, before and since the passing of the Act, and of the comparative attendance of the Secretary at his Office, before and since the passing of the Act; of the Number and Names of other Offices or Appointments held by the present or former Secretaries, while being Secretary of Bankrupts, or subsequently to their quitting that Office, to which any of them may have been appointed by the LORD CHANCELLOR; of the Hours of Attendance of the last Deputy Secretary of Bankrupts on the Duties of his Office, and a specification of what such Duties were; of the Number of Bankrupt Petitions heard in Court by the LORD CHANCELLOR and the Vice-Chancellor, respectively, during the years 1829, 1830, and 1831:—On the Motion of Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE, of the Number of Persons on the 17th March last, who had been Rated to the Relief of the Poor of the Parish of St. James's Westminster, the whole year immediately preceding, and had paid all the Parochial Rates, Taxes, and Assessments, due from them, except such as had become due within the Six Months im-
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mediately preceding; of the total Number of Declarations or Votes delivered to the said Churchwardens for and against the adoption of the Act passed in the last Session for the better Regulation of Vestries, &c., specifying the Number (after the summing up thereof) rejected, and the Number given for, and the Number given against, the adoption of the said Act, accepted or allowed by the said Churchwardens.
Petitions presented. By Mr. ROBINSON, from the Retailers of Beer, in Worcester, for extending the Time for keeping open their Houses; and from the Members of the Council of the Political Union of St. Matthew, Bethnal Green, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bill:—By Mr. WEYLAND, from the Inhabitants of Potton, in favour of the Poor Allotments Bill:—By Sir FRANCIS VINCENT, from the Inhabitants of St. Alban's, for the Abolishment of Slavery:—By Lord ACHESON, from the Parishioners of Maree, Galway, for a Provision in the Irish Reform Bill to preserve the peculiar Franchise of Galway; from the Presbyterian Congregation of Brigh, against the New Plan of Education for Ireland, and from the Protestant Dissenters of Killeavey, for the Abolition of Tithes:—By Mr. EWART, from certain Hotel Keepers, for Relief from their Liability to make Restitution for the Loss of Property by their Guests:—By Sir EDMUND HAYES, from the Archdeacon, Clergy, and others of the Diocese of Raphoe; from the Presbyterian Congregations of Latterkenny, andUpper Moville; and by Mr. JAMES E. GORDON, from Bandon, Cork, against the New System of Education in Ireland; and from Tullevar and Templemartin, signed chiefly by Catholics, in favour of the Kildare Street Society.

COLONIAL SLAVERY.
The Sheriffs of the City of London presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen and Common Council of the City of London, approving of the Orders in Council with respect to the West-India Colonies, and praying an amelioration of the present condition of the slave population of the Colonies, and the eventual Abolition of Slavery.
Mr. Humecould not remain silent on the present occasion. He was sorry so respectable a body as the Corporation and Common Council of the metropolis should have approached the House with such a petition, if he understood it correctly, as that just presented. He begged to protest against the Orders in Council approved of by the petition, by which discriminating duties were to be enforced as a punishment, which would prove a complete violation of property, if any property could be said to be in the West-India colonies.
Mr. Alderman Woodsaid, the Corporation of London had always expressed liberal feelings and principles, and their great object at present was, to do away with the system of slavery. He begged to move that the petition be laid on the Table, and be printed.
Mr. Alderman Hughes Hughessaid, he had been requested by the enlightened body from whom this petition proceeded to support its prayer, and he had much pleasure in doing so, for his own opinions coincided with those expressed with it, and he admired the moderation of the tone of the petition, as well as of the Orders of Coun-

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cil. He hoped the same moderation would be imitated by all parties in that House, when the important subject of slavery came to be discussed.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansupported the prayer of the petition,
Mr. Alderman Copelandquestioned the prudence of the Corporation of London in coming to the conclusion expressed in this petition. He knew that those citizens who were connected with the colonies viewed every measure which was taken with regard to them, with considerable alarm; and none more so than the Orders in Council, to which reference had been made, as they considered that those Orders had a tendency to injure the colonies, and the shipping trade of the country. Whenever the great question of slavery should come before the House, he should be prepared to offer his sentiments upon it; he begged, however, to say at present he was no advocate for the existence of slavery, but he thought still that the Orders in Council were not calculated to ameliorate the condition of the negroes in the colonies, and, therefore, he could not give the petition his support.
Mr. Dixonsaid, that notwithstanding the eulogy which had been bestowed upon the Orders in Council, the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had expressed his intention to accede to a modification of them, to make them more palatable to the feelings of those best acquainted with the colonies. He was firmly of opinion, that, if they were carried into effect, as they at present existed, they would be destructive to the maritime interests of the country.
Mr. Warburtonthought the Corporation of London had done themselves credit by presenting the petition then before the House, for he was fully convinced that the present system of slavery in the colonies was attended with so much danger, that, if modifications were not speedily admitted into it, with a view to better the condition of the negroes, that the colonies would be lost to this country, and because he wished to preserve them, he approved of the Orders in Council which had that object in view.
Petition to be printed.

COMMUNICATION WITH IRELAND.
Mr. Ewartpresented a Petition from the Bankers, Merchants, and Inhabitants of the town of Liverpool, against the removal of the Government steam-packets employed in the Post-office department between that port and Dublin. He wished to inform the
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House that great inconvenience would arise from any interruption in the present mode of communication between the two places, and he thought that would be evident when the extent of the trade between them was considered. In the last year there was imported into Liverpool from Ireland 9,000 head of cattle, 130,000 sheep, and 150,000 pigs; such a trade could not be disturbed without causing much embarrassment.
Colonel Conollyhoped there was no idea on the part of Government, of disturbing an established mode of communication with Ireland, such as that from Liverpool, which had increased so rapidly, and was attended with such beneficial effects. He was sure that both countries would sustain injury from such an attempt.
Mr. Spring Ricebegged to assure the House there was no intention on the part of Government to remove the Post-office station from Liverpool. He imagined the petition had originated in a supposition by the inhabitants of that place, that, because a Committee had been appointed to inquire into the present state of communication between this country and Ireland, the Government station at Liverpool was to be abolished; whereas the object of that Committee was to inquire how far the communication between the two countries could be accelerated and facilitated.
Lord William Lennoxsaid, he could confirm this opinion as expressed by the right hon. Gentleman. The object of the Committee now sitting, of which he was a Member, was, to facilitate the communication with Ireland, and it would be an extraordinary way of accomplishing that by taking away the Liverpool packets. On the contrary, one entire day had been occupied by the Committee trying, if possible, to accelerate the Liverpool mail, to get it down before the sailing of the packet.
Petition to be printed.

THE GAOLER OF LANCASTER CASTLE.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition from certain Debtors confined in the Castle of Lancaster, complaining of the conduct of the Gaoler and of the visiting Magistrates. The petitioners complained, in the first place, that the gaoler, who was a gentleman at large, did not reside within the gaol, as required by the Act of Parliament, but lived at a distance of between two and three miles from the prison, and that his son, a cotton-manufacturer of the town of Lancaster, was the deputy-gaoler, and resided within the prison. They further complained that

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the deputy-gaoler, having one of his debtors in his custody, at his own suit, who was about to seek his discharge under the Insolvent Act, sought to obtain from him an assignment of property to the full amount of his demand, and to the prejudice of other creditors, under the threat that, if not, he should oppose his discharge. The debtor refused to comply with this most improper demand, and on coming up before the Commissioners, stated the circumstance on which the learned Commissioner reprimanded the deputy-gaoler, and discharged the insolvent. The petitioners further stated, that on complaining on a former occasion of the conduct of the deputy-gaoler, they obtained no redress, but were treated in a most barbarous manner, were dragged from their rooms, and placed in solitary cells, with only a blanket to cover them, and fed on bread and water. From these grievances the petitioners sought redress from the House. The petition had been placed in his hands by a most respectable solicitor, who had himself inquired into the allegations, and was prepared to prove on any occasion that they were true.
Mr. Greenethought the House could not entertain the petition just presented, because he conceived that it should first be shown that the visiting Magistrates had neglected their duty, and that application had been made to the Home Secretary, who had also neglected his duty, before the House could interfere. But so far was this from being the case, that he had himself, on the representation of the hon. member for the borough of Southwark, to whom the petition had been first sent for presentation to that House, called the attention of the visiting Magistrates to the allegations contained in it, by whom the complaints against the deputy-gaoler, had been fully investigated. The visiting Magistrates had passed resolutions entirely exculpating the Governor of the Castle, and his son from the charges of oppression which had been brought against them by the petitioners; and this was deemed so satisfactory by the hon. member for Southwark, that he declined presenting the petition. In the case of the insolvent debtor to whom allusion had been made, there did not appear the slightest grounds for complaint. He had never made any himself, and the petitioners had no interest whatever in the matter. With regard to the main object of complaint that the governor was not resident in the Castle, that point had also been investigated by the Magistrates, and he had been directed
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not to absent himself in future. He must also remark, that the deputy-gaoler did not come within the provisions of the statute, disqualifying a gaoler from carrying on any trade or business as stated in the petition. The Act made no mention of a deputy gaoler. This, perhaps, was a point of law, on which the House could not give an opinion, much less could it be called on to explain Acts of Parliament,
Mr. Huntmoved "that the petition be printed."
Mr. Greeneopposed the Motion, on the ground that the petition contained statements and allegations of the truth of which the House could know nothing.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, the petition ought to be printed, as the hon. Gentleman himself admitted that one of the charges against the gaoler—that of formerly sleeping out of the gaol had been proved.
Mr. Huntcalled on the hon. Member to disprove any one of the allegations of the petition. He could affirm that the gaoler of Lancaster had resided out of the gaol for ten years, whatever he might do just now. He hoped that the House would allow the petition to be printed.
Mr. George Lambsaid, it was clear that the principal complaint in the petition, that which related to the non-residence of the governor, had been removed, but still he thought it not worth while to resist the printing of the petition. The reports made by the visiting Magistrates relating to the conduct of the deputy-gaoler, it might be as well to have transmitted to the office of the Secretary of State. At the same time he begged to bear his testimony to the general good conduct of the Lancaster Magistrates.
Mr. Greenesaid, after the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman he would not resist the petition being printed.
Petition to be printed.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—DUTIES ON GLASS.
Lord Althorpmoved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. Dixonbegged to know if the noble Lord intended to reduce the duty on glass? It was some time since the noble Lord had, in answer to a question of the same description, stated, he did not mean to reduce the duties immediately; but many persons who, from their large stock on hand, would be much injured by any sudden reduction, were anxious to know the noble Lord's intention, and they hoped that under any

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circumstances notice for at least a year would be given to the manufacturers.
Lord Althorpsaid, he had not the least intention to meddle with the duty on glass. He believed it would be a great advantage to get rid of that duty, but unfortunately, the revenue could not bear the loss of the sum it produced.
The House went into a Committee.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
Sir John Hobhousebegged to be permitted to state, before he moved the remaining items of the Army Estimates, that he had made inquiries into the subject of the commutation of Army Pensions, to which the right hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Hardinge) had alluded some few nights since. He was even now prepared to enter into some statements on the subject, but he believed it would be better, for the interest of the parties concerned that a specific day should be appointed to take into consideration the whole of the allegations made, and what he had to urge in reply. Nothing could more interest him than the task which officially devolved upon him, in a great degree, of looking to the comfortable provision in old age of our veteran soldiers; and he could assure that right hon. Baronet, that, whilst he continued at the head of the Department of the War Office, it should be his study to prevent the old soldiers in our service from being prejudiced in their enjoyment of the bounty of a grateful nation by any improper application of the principle of economy to their income or allowances.
Sir Henry Hardingewas much gratified by hearing what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet. He concurred in his proposal to set apart a special occasion for the general consideration of the subject; and he could assure the right hon. Baronet that he should have all the assistance he could possibly afford him in his laudable endeavours to protect the interest of the veteran, and provide for the prudent application of the funds voted by Parliament for the maintenance for soldiers to whom a more than ordinary debt of gratitude was due for their services during the most arduous contest in which the nation had ever been engaged.
Sir John Hobhousemoved the following votes, which were agreed to, without opposition:—117,274 l. 19 s. 10 d. to defray the charge of Staff Officers at home and abroad, with the exception of India; 103,014 l. 15 s. 7d. to defray the salaries and allowances to the Officers of Public Departments; 12,000 l. for charge of medicine and hospitals;
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33,670 l. 16 s. 2d. for Garrisons at home and abroad.
On the vote for 2,638 l. 11 s. 1d., on account of the Royal Military College,
Sir Henry Hardingeexpressed his disapprobation of the economy that had reduced this vote so low. When the House recollected that the Military schools of France cost that country 30,000 l. a year, and that a large proportion of the young officers of the French army were educated at the public expense, when even the United States educated 400 students at an expense of 30,000 l. a year in order to maintain the efficiency of its very small army, he did hope hon. Members would think the Government were running the Military College too hard, in proposing to cut off the orphan class of students, consisting of only twenty boys, whose fathers had been either wounded in battle, or had died in the service of their country, thus for ever preventing them from treading in the same honourable steps as their fathers. He might, by entering into details, show, that many distinguished officers had been educated at the Military College, and show that it was a false economy to curtail the usefulness of that establishment, but, at all events, the orphan class ought to be continued, and these youths ought to be educated at the expense of the State.
Lord Althorpsaid, that in the present state of the country, and in a period of peace, he thought there was no reason for the continuance of such an expense, as there was no want of candidates properly educated for commissions. At the Military College education was afforded to the boys at a cheaper rate than they could get it elsewhere; but, as the parents were willing to incur the larger expense he saw no reason for the complaints of the hon. and gallant General against these endeavours to relieve the country from an expense which individuals voluntarily put themselves forward to bear.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that plans had been laid before the War Office by practical military men, showing how the public might at once get rid of the whole of this expense, by throwing it upon the army at large; but, as it was not thought altogether fair towards the army, it was not adopted. But still, by making the young gentlemen pay for their own clothing, amounting to 5l. 10 s. each annually, and by increasing the contribution, and making some other alterations, they had reduced the charge from 5,600 l., which it

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was last year, to 2,638 l., notwithstanding some increase in the salaries of the professors. The right hon. and gallant Officer, however, objected to the prospective intention of getting rid of the whole of the public charge. He was aware that this involved a delicate question—no less than that of precluding from commands in the army those who had no original means of support; and thus making the service too aristocratical. That, he knew, was the objection; but, after what he had heard from all quarters, he was inclined to think that holding out this kind of bonus to the introduction of persons into the army, who had not other means of support than what they derived from their commissions, was advantageous neither to the service nor to the public.
Sir Henry Hardingethought the right hon. Baronet had touched upon delicate and dangerous ground, in expressing his opinion that the army ought to be entirely officered by individuals who had some support beyond their pay. If such a principle was carried into full operation, the army would become as aristocratical as the French army before the Revolution, when it was officered exclusively by the noblesse. If such a practice had hitherto prevailed in this country, many gallant and able officers, who had no other purses but their pay, would have been excluded from the service, to the great loss of the public. He considered the principle laid down by the right hon. Baronet as a most extraordinary one, particularly coming from him. It was repugnant to the system upon which the army ought to be conducted in a free country, where it could not be upheld as a profession unless it were open to the enterprise of every person. It was incumbent on the Government to raise the pay of officers, to enable them to live with their regiments, rather than permit any exclusive principle to be acted on similar to that adverted to by the right hon. Baronet. Many officers might be the sons of clergymen, and other respectable gentlemen, whose incomes, however, might not admit of making their sons an annual allowance. With regard to the plan alluded to, of making the army pay the expenses of the Military College, and which, the hon. Baronet said, was proposed by military officers, he believed it to be this—that an officer, on coming into the army, instead of merely paying the Regulation price for his Commission, should pay a larger sum on his first commission, by way of a contribution
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to the Military College, so that he who had, perhaps, never been at the College, was to be made to pay for the education of those who were educating there. No doubt such a tax might be imposed upon an officer, but he might just as well be charged with a contribution towards the expense of gravelling St. James's Parade, or effecting any other purpose with which he and his first commission had nothing whatever to do. The noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who generally met every question fairly had not treated this subject in his usual open and manly manner. He had urged, as an argument against the Military College, that there were plenty of candidates for commissions in time of peace, and, therefore, there was no necessity to hold out a premium to persons to come into the army, by a gratuitous education at the College, and, a commission for nothing; but he had evaded the real question, which was whether the candidates for the army had received a military education, qualifying them for the situations they were to fill. He had never advocated the principle that all, or even the larger proportion, of the officers should, as a matter of necessity, be educated at the Military College; for, no doubt, any one with the education of an English gentleman, brought up at a public school, with a sound classical education, well disiplined in his regiment afterwards—and more particularly if, at a later period, he took advantage of the senior department of the Military College—would make a very good officer. This, however, was no argument against the College; for an education there gave many professional advantages of great value on service; and many of the most distinguished officers in the Peninsula war had been educated at the College. The argument was, that the College was professionally useful; and if there were good reasons for keeping it up generally, not for any particular class, but for the benefit of the service, how much more strongly did the claims of the orphan class to the generosity of the nation become? Suppose an officer killed in action, who had been distinguished, though poor—for officers were generally younger sons with small fortunes—and his relations were unable to provide for his children; was it not fair that they should be assisted in their education at the public expense? With respect to increasing the contributions of the cadets, it was very well to talk of it across the Table, but he really thought the 125 l.

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a-year now paid by the parents sufficient to pay for the education of a boy going into the army. To reduce the expenses of the Military College, which at present only cost the public 5,600 l. a-year for an army of 90,000 men; in the manner contemplated by Government, to the injury of twenty poor orphans, the sons of officers, was a most shabby sort of economy.
Captain Boldero: It was a great point to properly educate the sons of officers who had fallen in the service of their country, for they inherited their fathers name, character, and connexions, but, being without means to procure a proper education, they could not avail themselves of these advantages without the public assistance to bring them forward.
Sir John Bourke: thought it right that officers should have the satisfaction of knowing, that, if they fell in the service of their country, their children would be educated by the state. With respect to the non-admission of officers unless they had private fortunes, such a regulation would much impair the efficiency of the army as it would totally destroy that emulation which was created in the lower ranks in the hopes of obtaining a commission.
Mr. Warburton: thought this a proper opportunity to recommend the principle advocated by the hon. member for Middlesex, and consolidate all the military schools of Addiscombe, Woolwich and Blackwater, into one, by which the expenses of three separate establishments would be much reduced.
Resolution agreed to.
22,885 l. 16 s. 8d. for the Royal Military Asylum and the Hibernian Military School.
99,608 l. 12 s. 4d. for the Volunteer Corps of Great Britain and Ireland.
17,500 l. for Exchequer fees on issues to be made for the army services in Great Britain and Ireland.
125,000 l. for the pay of General Officers in his Majesty's forces, not being Colonels of regiments: and
90,000 l. for the full pay of reduced and retired officers of his Majesty's forces, were voted.
On the question, that 666,500 l. be granted for the half-pay and military allowances to reduced and retired officers of his Majesty's land forces being read from the chair,
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, he took credit to himself for having introduced the system of commuting the half-pay of officers of
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the army. Upwards of 500 officers had accepted commutations, which had caused a saving to the public of upwards of 30,000 l. a-year, besides weeding the army of a number of individuals who either never intended to make it a profession, or had given up their intentions, if they had ever entertained any such. His plan had been, to make officers either go upon service, or sell out, but the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary at War, was reported to have said, on a former evening, that, if the system had been pursued with greater vigour, a still larger saving might have been made. He begged to observe, however, that there was a line to be drawn in this case, and that which was practicable on one side of that line might be very cruel and extremely inexpedient on the other. An officer might have served but a short time, yet, if that service had been in a tropical climate, his constitution might have sustained so much injury as to unfit him for farther actual service; and, therefore, a rule founded on mere length of service ought not to be adopted. In applying the system of commutations, each case ought to be decided upon its own merits. There was another point connected with the system of commutation, which he begged to notice. It ought rarely to be granted in lieu of pensions for life, or for the loss of limbs, but if it ever was allowed, the full value of the pension ought to be given in such cases. There was this difference between pensions, and half-pay—the former could, under no circumstances, be taken away, although the latter might; it was not only an allowance for former services, but a retainer for future ones. The right hon. Baronet, no doubt recollected the account given by Sterne in his "Sentimental Journey," of the officer decorated with the cap of St. Louis selling petits patés. He (Sir H. Hardinge) much feared that if officers were permitted to commit the improvident act of commuting their pensions for wounds, similar objects would be met with in this country, and the public would have the misery of seeing men mutilated in the public service, deprived of the national bounty by the act of those men themselves, from which their guardian, the Secretary at War, ought to have restrained them. The only mode to be adopted to prevent such things was, entirely to prohibit all bargains between a wounded officer and the public.
Sir John Hobhouseexplained, that what he had said on a former evening was, that a considerable saving might be made to the

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public by pursuing such a system of commutation with due, but not improper vigour. He was by no means for pushing it further, and least of all did he think of extending it to what might be considered a system of forced commutation. The right hon. Baronet might be assured that he would pay proper attention to his remarks with regard to wounded officers.
Mr. Humesaid, there was another consideration of some importance connected with this subject, and that was the disposal of first commissions. By the present practice, the Commander-in-Chief had the power, by giving away commissions, to bestow as many pensions for life as he might consider proper. Every first commission in his opinion ought to be purchased, which would cause a great saving to the country; at present with such an enormous dead weight, all vacancies ought to be filled up from the Half-pay List.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, that very few first commissions were given away; but it was absolutely necessary, in some cases, to confer them upon individuals without purchase. It would be impossible to take all the officers from the half-pay list, at least so as to render the service effective; for it was not to be imagined that men of eight-and-thirty or forty years of age would return to the army as ensigns. Nor, indeed, would such persons be able well to discharge their duties, encumbered as most of them would be with families, and estranged in habits from military service. It was positively necessary to have a regular succession of young men enter the service.
Mr. Humesaid, what he proposed was, that the young man should buy out the old life, and he would answer for it that many would be found ready to do so. If, however, the old half-pay officer declined the acceptance of a junior commission, there would be nothing unjust in requiring him to make way for one that would.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, this was the precise plan he had practised as Secretary at War. Such officers as had not performed a sufficient term of service to justify their receiving permanent half-pay, were required to join a regiment, or else receive a sum of money to leave the army. If, however, this plan was to be adopted to its full extent, the effect would be, that the cadets of the Military College must be deprived of the promotion, which they now received, to the amount of fourteen or fifteen a-year. It was necessary, therefore, to use some discrimination in carrying it
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into practice. Another objection, if they sold every commission would be, that they would thereby shut the door against those persons who had a just claim, but who were not able to purchase; as, for instance, where the father had claims for services, what better mode could there be of meeting those claims than by giving his son a commission? He was quite sure that the right hon. Baronet would find every readiness to meet him on the part of the Commanderin-Chief; for, in saying that, he only spoke from his own experience. He begged, also, to say, that he quite agreed with the right hon. Baronet, that it would be impossible to place men of thirty-five or forty years of age, among young gentlemen, who generally fill the first commissions. The hon. Gentleman would find, that by the warrant of 1830, an officer was only entitled to termporary half-pay, unless he had served on full-pay for three years; the object of which was, that he might receive the price of his commission, which was to be paid by the sale of a first commission.
Vote agreed to, as was the following votes.
88,900 l. for the charge of half-pay and reduced allowances to officers of disbanded foreign corps, of pensions to wounded foreign officers, and of allowances to the widows and children of deceased foreign officers, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833.
26,334 l. 15 s. for the charge for reduced Local Militia adjutants, retired officers of the Militia, and reduced adjutants and serjeant majors of Yeomanry, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833.
50,750 l. 16 s. 10 d. for the charge of allowances, compensations, and emoluments, in the nature of superannuation or retired allowances to persons formerly belonging to the several Public Departments in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 1st April, 1832, to the 31st March, 1833; and 14,500 l. for the charge of Exchequer fees in Great Britain upon issues to be made for non-effective army services, from 1st of April, 1832, to 31st of March, 1833, were also voted.
The House resumed.
On the Resolution for granting 147,423 l. for the charge of Pensions to be paid to widows of officers of the land forces, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833.
Sir Adolphus Dalrympleinquired what was the amount of other means which disqualified widows from receiving pensions. He wished to know whether officers'

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widows were compelled to swear to the amount of their property, and also whether the right hon. Gentleman had taken into consideration the case of the general officers' widow, who had been refused a pension because she had 400 l. a-year?
Sir John Hobhousesaid, these were matters which must be regulated by circumstances. Whoever had any control over the public purse was bound to maintain a just economy. There were various considerations, however, arising out of their positions in society, and other circumstances, which must influence the amount of the pensions granted to widows. With respect to the particular case adverted to by the hon. Member, the more he inquired into it the more he was satisfied of the propriety of the decision.
Sir Henry Hardingeconfirmed what had been stated by the right hon. Secretary-at-War. The amount of other means possessed by a widow ought not to be the sole criterion of her right to a pension. It would be very hard that a widow should be visited with punishment because her husband had been a careful man, and had saved a little money for the education of his children. Such a regulation would be an encouragement to profligate expenditure.
Resolution agreed to.
On the Resolution for granting 175,041 l. for the charge of allowances on the Compassionate List, of allowances as of his Majesty's royal bounty, and of pensions, gratuities, and allowances to officers for wounds, from 1st April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833, being proposed,
Sir Adolphus Dalrymplesaid, when this subject was last before the House, he had mentioned the case of an officer which had appeared in The Times newspaper, and he hoped this had since been looked into.
Sir John Hobhousepresumed the case was that of Captain St. George Lyster, and he begged to say, he had fully informed himself of it, and that he agreed with the decision of his predecessor on the subject.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, he had never thought it necessary to vindicate himself from the charge made by the officer whose name had been mentioned, for he had no doubt it was founded on correct principles. He was, however, glad that the right hon. Baronet had taken the same view of the subject as he had done.
Mr. Humethought, all pensions should be granted only on account of services performed, and not for the number of children left; if such a practice prevailed, it would
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operate like the present system of Poorlaws as a bounty to beget children.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, pensions were always granted according to a regular scale, without any reference to the number of children. It was only in case of the Compassionate Fund that such circumstances were considered, and the amount granted on that account was never below that recommended by the Finance Committee.
Resolution agreed to.
On the vote for 1,350, 503 l. 6s. 8d. to defray the charges of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, of the in-pensioners of these establishments; and of the out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital, from the 1st of April, 1832, to the 31st of March, 1833,
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, that he observed that 30,000 l. was taken in aid of this vote, out of the unclaimed prize-money of the army. He thought it was worth the consideration of the noble Lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, and the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary-at-War, whether the sums arising from this source might not be more judiciously employed, by enabling the public to permanently endow some of those humane Societies which had reference to the service; for surely none could have a better claim than the soldiers who fought for it, such as the Military Asylum, and the Hibernian Military Asylum. He believed that 200,000 l. or 300,000 l. had already beeen subtracted from the unclaimed prize-money; and it was evident that if this sum had been invested for the benefit of these Asylums, they would by this time have ceased to be any expense to the country.
Lord John Russellbelieved the practice had been, for many years, to pay a part of the expense of Chelsea Hospital out of this money, without any application to Parliament being made on the subject. When this vote, however, was considered at the Board over which he presided, he had given it as his opinion that this money should be taken as deducted from the vote; so that Parliament might have a clear view of what was doing on the subject. That this was not formerly the case would be seen, when he stated that 50,000 l. from this fund had been applied to the buildings at Chelsea, without the sanction of Parliament. With respect to endowing the Asylums as proposed by the gallant Officer, his predecessor, the late Mr. Calcraft, was of opinion, that as those Asylums had been objected to in Parliament, it would not be fit to abstract them from the view of this House,

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by making them separately endowed establishments. His opinion coincided with that of Mr. Calcraft; and he thought unclaimed prize-money might be better employed by making it applicable to the commutation of soldiers' pensions, which was a new charge, and had amounted to much more than was at first contemplated—the expense this year being 70,000 l.
Mr. Humesaid, he had long ago objected to this mode of making deductions in accounts, and here was one of the consequences of it; for 50,000 l. had been spent for buildings at Chelsea, without any Member of that House knowing anything at all about it.
Sir Henry Hardingecould not allow the noble Lord to infer that this was the first time this money had been brought before Parliament. If he would call for a paper of his, in the War Office, he would find in it some observations on this very point; and he would perceive that arrangements were made by him and Mr. Calcraft, to bring the matter before the House; and although that was not done, it was no fault of the late Government. Perhaps, however, the noble Lord only meant to impute blame to his colleague, the present Foreign Secretary, who preceded him (Sir Henry Hardinge) as Secretary-at-War; if so, he, of course, could not presume to defend Lord Palmerston; though he had no doubt that if the noble Paymaster would fix a time for the discussion, that noble Lord would be ready to vindicate himself.
Lord John Russelldid not mean to say, that this account was never known till the present Administration came into office; but he meant to say, that Mr. Calcraft told him that what he had stated had been the practice; and that he thought that a statement on this head ought to be made in the estimates. He did not mean to enter into any discussion as to the former conduct of his noble friend when in the War Office; but, perhaps, twelve or twenty years ago these things were more loosely carried on than now.
Sir John Hobhousesaid, it was impossible there could be any deception about the present vote; for it was distinctly stated that 30,000 l. was taken from the unclaimed prize-money. The offer of that sum was made by the Chelsea Board; and he did not think that even his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, would have had them refuse it, especially as they had to meet an expense of 70,000 l. for commutation-money. He admitted, however, that
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it was a very reasonable question, whether it would not be better to place this money so as to be receiving interest for it, instead of sinking it altogether by making it applicable to the estimates of the year.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid, all he aimed at was, to relieve the late Administration from the insinuation attempted to be thrown out that this money was first brought forward for the public service by the present one; and as he had attained his object, he would only add, that he believed that this prize-money now appearing on the estimates was chiefly owing to the paper he had drawn up, and which had been already alluded to.
Resolution agreed to.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Viscount SIDMOUTH, from Cornwall, against the Reform Bill:—By a NOBLE LORD, from the Inhabitants of Cong, for a Revision of the Tithe System in Ireland.

SENTENCE OF DEATH EXPLANATION BILL.
The Earl of Shaftesburymoved the Order of the Day, for going into Committee on this Bill.
Lord Wynfordsaid, that a practice had recently prevailed by the means of which bills of much importance had been pressed on their Lordships' House, with such haste as to prevent a due consideration of them, and even before the bills themselves were printed, such was the case with the measure then before the House. He did, therefore, trust the Committee on the Bill might be postponed until the machinery attached to it was fully understood. It appeared to him that the effect would be to limit the King's prerogative of mercy in certain cases.
Lord Tenterdenentertained considerable

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doubt whether the provisions of former laws ought to be extended in the manner contemplated by this Bill. He fully agreed, however, with his noble and learned friend, that further time for consideration should be allowed.
The Lord Chancelloragreed with both his noble and learned friends, that the Bill deserved much consideration. He begged, however, to say, it was not introduced by
Ministers, but by a worthy Alderman of the City of London. He thought his noble and learned friend who had first objected to it was in error when he asserted that it would abridge the prerogative of the Crown, in respect to its most valuable prerogative, that of mercy, its object being solely to do away with the painful necessity of passing sentence of death, in cases where that extreme penalty was not likely to be carried into execution.
Lord Wynfordsaid, his object was, to show that all mercy proceeded from the Throne, and, therefore, he wished the Bill to be postponed, to ascertain whether a clause might not be introduced requiring that, in all cases, the King's assent to the sentence being recorded and not pronounced, should be signified.
Committee postponed.