Sitting of 23 September 1831

MINITES.
New Members. For Derbyshire, Lord CAVENDISH; for Wallingford, THOMAS CHARLES LEIGH, Esq.
Petitions presented. By Mr. JOHNSTONE, from the Fife District of Burghs, and several individual Boroughs in Scotland, praying for Representation. By Mr. TRAILL, from the Inhabitants of the Shetland Isles, praying that the Franchise should be extended to them; and from Caithness against the use of Molasses in Distilleries. By Colonel LINDSAY, from the Royal Burgh of Kilrenny, praying for Representation. By Mr. O' CONNOR, from the Inhabitants of the District of Emill (Roscommon), for Public Aid to reclaim the Waste Land, in, that district.

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By Mr. ESTCOURT, from a Parish in Gloucestershire, against the Beer Bill. By Lord M. W. GRAHAM, from Dumbarton, against the Scotch Reform Bill.

EXPLANATIONS.
Colonel Torrenssaid, that though he might not be strictly in order, yet he trusted that he might receive the indulgence of the House while he asked a question of the hon. member for Boroughbridge, whom he saw in his place. He having long been a liveryman of the city of London, was, on a recent occasion, requested to move at the Common-hall the petition of the Livery to the House of Lords in favour of the Reform Bill. The hon. and learned Member, on a previous debate, when he was not in the House, had thought proper to animadvert on certain expressions which he was supposed to have let fall on that occasion. Had the hon. member for Boroughbridge not failed in the usual courtesy due from one Gentleman to another, he might have been saved the trouble of descanting in that House upon the proceeding which took place at the Common-hall. He did not wish to wear his opinions loosely about him. He always endeavoured to fix them in their proper places by some peg of argument—some buckle of reason. The expressions to which the hon. Member had objected were used hypothetically, and described the position of the House of Lords in what he hoped and believed to be an impossible case. Conceiving that the desire for Reform throughout the country was not a temporary impulse, but a sentiment growing necessarily out of the state of improvement at which we had arrived, he was under the conviction that this desire would not pass away, but would increase with the increasing intelligence of the people. On the supposition, therefore, that the demand for Reform, would certainly become more general and more intense on the part of the people, and that it would be pertinaciously resisted on the part of the House of Lords, he had put the question, what the position of the House of Lords under these circumstances might ultimately become and he answered the question by saying that such unwise resistance to a perpetually increasing force, would lead to more sweeping demands on the part of the people, until, in the heat of popular excitement, a change might be demanded in which the House of Lords might find themselves placed in schedule A. This was the expression to which the hon.
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member for Boroughbridge objected. Now that hon. Member was peculiarly gifted with a fertile imagination and a creative fancy; and could, no doubt, readily supply some more correct and appropriate image by which to represent the position of the House of Lords under the circumstances supposed. He called upon the hon. and learned Member to substitute a more correct and appropriate expression for that to which he had objected. He had no partiality for the expression; it was thrown off under the excitement of he moment; and it was, doubtless, open to correction. On the hon. and learned Member who raised the objection the task of correction naturally fell. It could not all into more able hands; and therefore he called upon the hon. Member to furnish a more appropriate expression to designate the position of the House of Lords, under the supposition that the desire for Reform should perpetually increase on the part of the public at large, and should be perpetually resisted by the Peers. He would not defend the unpremeditated expression he had himself employed, but he was entitled to call upon the hon. Member who objected to substitute a better.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the hon. and gallant Member had been pleased to say that he was a person of fancy and imagination. He had no pretensions to such qualities, but the hon. and gallant Member certainly had fancy to imagine a case which he could not fancy. In the debates on the Reform Bill, he had alluded, as he had a right to do, to a speech which the hon. and gallant Member had delivered elsewhere. In that speech the hon. and gallant Member had scheduled the House of Lords; and that being the case, he (Sir C. Wetherell) had a perfect right to animadvert upon such words in that House. He did that which he had a right to do—he referred in the course of the debate on the Reform Bill, to a speech which he found attributed to a Member of that House, and he argued, as he also had a right to do, that there was abroad a spirit of insolent threat and of unconstitutional terrorism, bordering even upon illegal threats, and an actual breaking the law, the object of which was, to overawe the deliberations and the decision of the other portion of the Legislature, with regard to the measure of Reform. He thought that in following up such an argument as that, his allusion to the speech

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attributed to the hon. Member was not out of place, and the approbation with which the House received his observations on that occasion, proved that the House did not think them irrelevant to the subject then before it. When it was notorious that the public press was pursuing an illegal and unconstitutional system of threats and intimidation on this subject, if he could show, that a Member of that House had, out of that House, to a certain degree participated in those threats, he had a perfect right to do so. The hon. Member had now thought fit, in the exercise of his discretion, to revive this topic. That was the hon. Member's affair, and not his. The hon. Member had not, however, imputed to him any misstatement, or misrepresentation of the opinions which he had expressed at the meeting of the Livery. He had been asked if he could not suppose, that if the Lords exercised their undoubted right, and rejected, as he trusted they would, the Reform Bill, and all similar Bills whenever brought before them, that the consequence would be, the Lords would be placed in schedule A? He replied to that interrogatory, that he could suppose no such thing. He must say, that exerting his fancy to the utmost stretch, driving imagination to its wildest flights, and pushing it into the ultimate wilderness of extravagance, he could imagine no case in which the House of Lords could be scheduled which did not necessarily and inevitably involve a tumultuary, violent revolution, destroying, with the House of Lords, the House of Commons, the Crown, the Constitution, and the Church. But the hon. Member treated the result of the supposition which he had made rather in the way of a fact than of a piece of fancy. He had insinuated, that resistance on the part of the House of Lords would lead to that noble body being placed in the schedule A in some future Bill. Now the hon. Member was a soldier, and a gallant one, and what would he say to that adversary who attempted to intimidate him from doing his duty by threats? Did the gallant Member suppose the Peerage of this country had no feelings of high honour or of courage to maintain? Did the gallant Member imagine, or could his fertile fancy, for he was the fancier, lead him to entertain in seriousness the thought, that a noble and illustrious body like the House of Peers would be frighted from the discharge of their duty, lest they
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should be scheduled and destroyed by some future bill as revolutionary and jacobinical as the present Reform Bill?
Colonel Torrenswas happy to find that he had not paid an exaggerated compliment to the fertile imagination of the hon. and learned Member. The hon. Member was asked to substitute for the expression which he had censured, an expression more appropriate, and he replied by a discursive flight of fancy. He was satisfied at finding that the hon. and learned Gentleman could mend the language at which he cavilled. He was asked to define what the position of the House of Lords would become, should their Lordships pertinaciously resist a permanent and constantly increasing demand on the part of the nation for Reform? He repeated, that he had no wish to defend the hasty expression which he had thrown out, as in some way descriptive of their Lordships' position under the circumstances supposed; but he contended, that the hon. and learned Gentleman was not entitled to censure that expression, unless he could substitute one less exceptionable, and more appropriate.
Subject dropped.

CALL OF THE HOUSE.
Captain Berkeley Captain Berkeley moved for leave of absence for a fortnight, on urgent private business, for Lord Mexborough.
Mr. O' Connellmust object to the Motion, and he hoped the hon. Member would not press it.
Lord Stormontcomplained of the hon. and learned member for Kerry giving notice of a Call of the House, and then postponing it; keeping a rod hanging over their heads from day to day, which was extremely inconvenient.
Mr. O' Connellsaid, that he had no pity whatever for the noble Lord; being himself a member for Ireland, he could not take those flights backwards and forwards which the noble Lord was able to take; and he, therefore, did not see why he should give up the Call of the House. His reason for postponing the Call of the House was, because the Irish Reform Bill had been postponed.
Sir John Sebrightthought that the hon. member for Kerry had done perfectly right, in postponing the Call of the House till the object for which he desired it was coming forward.
Mr. John Smithwas astonished at the

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noble Lord (Stormont) having undertaken to lecture Members about a Call of the House. He thought, that the only real way to enforce a Call of the House was, never to carry it into execution.
Mr. Goulburndenied that his noble friend had lectured anybody. He, for his part, did not object to any course that the hon. member for Kerry might take as to the Call of which he had given notice: most likely, whether there was a Call or not, he should be present.
Sir John Brydgesadmitted, that the first duty of a Member of Parliament was, his attendance at that House; but still, as all men necessarily had important private business to transact, a Call of the House, hanging over the heads of Members, was excessively inconvenient.
Leave given.

PEMBROKE ELECTION.
Sir Robert Pricebrought up the Report of the Pembroke Election Committee, as follows:—"That the Committee on the Petition of the several freeholders of the county of Pembroke, complaining of an undue election and return for the said county, have determined, that Sir John Owen, Bart, is not a Knight duly elected to serve in this present Parliament for the county of Pembroke. That the last election of a Knight to serve in Parliament for the said county is a void election. That the said petition did not appear to the said Committee to be frivolous or vexatious. That the opposition to the said petition did not appear to the said Committee to be frivolous or vexatious." Ordered to be entered on the Journals. The hon. Baronet stated, that the said Committee had come to the folio wing resolutions—"That the conduct pursued by the High Sheriff, and by those under him, was strongly marked by a culpable neglect on his part, partiality on the part of the Under-Sheriff and some of the Sub-Sheriffs, and the inefficient conduct of the Assessor. That the Committee consider it to be their duty to report in such terms, more especially as they found their decision that the election is void, on the strong impression of such improper conduct having prevailed."
On the motion that these resolutions do lie on the Table,
An Hon. Memberinquired if the hon. Baronet meant to institute further proceedings.
Sir Robert Pricesaid, that he should,
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at all events, move that the minutes of the evidence taken before the Committee be laid on the Table of the House; but he should not move that they be printed, as it was not his intention, nor he believed that of any Member of the Committee, to institute further proceedings. He, however, thought it right that the House should be in possession of the evidence, so that, if any Member thought that further investigation was necessary, he might have the necessary documents. He hoped, however, that the Resolutions of the Committee would be sufficient to prevent the recurrence of such conduct.
Mr. George Robinsonbegged to inquire, whether the same returning officer would be employed at the election about to take place, as made up the last return.
Mr. Robert Gordonwished the hon. Baronet would point out how any Member could take further steps if the evidence was not printed?
Sir Robert Priceobserved, that his hon. friend had wholly mistaken him; he had no objection to the evidence being printed; he had only said, he should not move for it to be printed.
Mr. Dominick Browne, as one of the Committee, stated, that the feeling there had been, that these Resolutions would be found sufficient; they had reason to believe that the Sheriff was an impartial man, but of a timid disposition, which had led him into the errors complained of.
Sir George Warrenderthought the House ought to have the evidence full before it. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last, had given sufficient reasons why the Sheriff should not again have a writ directed to him.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, that as there would be another opportunity of discussing this subject, he thought that any debate at present was premature.
The Resolutions ordered to be laid on the Table, as well as the Minutes of Evidence.

EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY.
Sir George Murray, on presenting the Petition from the University of Edinburgh, of which he had given previous notice, praying that the University might, by the Reform Bill for Scotland, have Representatives in that House, said, it appeared to him that the prayer of the petitioners was reasonable, as the Universities of Dublin, of Oxford, and Cambridge, were all represented in

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that House; and as, by the Irish Reform Bill, Dublin University was about to have an additional Member. It was unnecessary for him to eulogize the eminent men who had been distinguished members of that University, many of whom of the last half-century he had the good fortune to be acquainted with. He need not do more than name Dr. Robertson, Dr. Blair, Dr. Munro, Dr. Black, Professor Playfair, and Mr. Dugald Stewart—all of whom were members of that University—to show what importance ought to attach to that place of learning. Their names were familiarly known in every part of the civilized world where religion, literature, and science, were known and cultivated. He begged leave to recommend the petition to the favourable notice of the Lord Advocate, and he knew he could not recommend it to a man more desirous of giving every consideration to the subject which the petition deserved, coming from a body so learned and scientific. He hoped that the Learned Lord Advocate would recommend it to the members of his Majesty's Government, and that the petitioners would find their prayer was granted.
Mr. Robert A. Dundassupported the prayer of the petition. It had been said, that there might be some difficulty in finding a proper constituency for the Scotch Universities, as the degrees taken there were not the same as at the English Universities. There was, however, an inquiry now taking place with respect to the Scotch Universities, and it might be worth while to consider whether it would not be right to enforce a certain course of studies, so as to ensure a respectable constituency.
Sir William Raesaid, after the observations which had been made by the mover and seconder, he would content himself by simply saying, that the petition well deserved the attention of Government.
The Lord Advocatesaid, that any proposition in behalf of the Scotch Universities, could not find any one more favourably disposed towards it than he was. The subject had been before his Majesty's Government already; and that House would now soon have an opportunity to consider the arguments for and against such a proposition; he would, therefore, abstain from any further remark at present, merely contenting himself with observing, that so far as a favourable consideration
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went, it would find a response in his own breast, and he had no doubt in that of every member of his Majesty's Government.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that the best way of judging of the benefit of having University Members was, to look at the effect existing with respect to the English Universities; and he begged to inquire, whether the Members returned to serve those Universities in Parliament had been distinguished by their literary or scientific attainments? Had the Universities selected men acquainted with scientific subjects? For his own part, he believed that the political opinions of the Members had been attended to by their learned constituents, rather than their acquaintance with scientific subjects, or literature. Whenever the subject of the petition came under discussion, he should be prepared to give it his opposition, and state his reasons for doing so.
Sir George Warrenderbore his testimony to the high respectability of the character of the petitioners; the constituency would consist chiefly of members of the Scottish Church, many of whom took degrees at the Universities, and a more honest, upright, and independent, body of electors could not be had in the kingdom.
Mr. Kennedyconsidered the present moment not the fittest period for entering upon the subject.
Sir John Walshprotested against the opinions expressed by the hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Warburton), and said, that Ministers had not shown their distrust in the electors of the two Universities exercising their right in the way they thought most conducive to their own interest; for it so happened, that of all the great changes which had been effected in the Reform Bill, the mode of election at the Universities had been preserved by a special clause introduced into the Bill. He could not, therefore, agree in the hostility pronounced by the hon. Gentleman against the Universities. He was not sorry to hear from the Lord Advocate that he invited a full discussion upon the subject. If, however, when the Bill had passed a second reading, no provision was made for the University of Edinburgh, he should feel it to be his duty to move a resolution that the Committee be invited to provide for that University.
Petition read.
Sir George Murray, on moving it should be printed, observed, that in giving the franchise to a University, the great object they had to look at was, to establish an independent and respectable constituency. Having done that, they might leave them to judge for themselves of what the political opinion of these Representatives should be.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
Sir William Raepresented a similar petition from the University of St. Andrew's, which was read, and laid upon the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR SCOTLAND—SECOND READING.
The Lord Advocate moved the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of the Reform Bill (Scotland).
Mr. Goulburninquired on what day the Irish Reform Bill would be brought forward?
Lord Althorpstated, that it stood for Monday; but he could not bring it forward on that day. He wished to consult the convenience of the Members in bringing it on. He had not yet been able to ascertain whether it was their wish that it should be discussed on alternate nights with the Scotch Bill, or that the latter should be first concluded. When he had ascertained that, he would inform the right hon. Gentleman when the Bill would come on.
The Lord Advocatethen proceeded. He rose, he said, in the terms of the order which had just been read, to propose to the House that the Bill for reforming the Representation of Scotland should be read a second time. When he looked to the nature and the state of the Scotch Representation, to what it had been since the Union, and long before, and when he looked at the nature of the change proposed, he did not consider it would be necessary to trespass on the House at length, considering the greatness of the object, in order to induce the Members to give the Bill their cordial assent. It was impossible, however, not to know that indications of dissatisfaction had appeared; not merely at its details, which were not then to be considered, but at the whole measure; and there even existed discontent at any change, as appeared by the special notices given by hon. Members. He was afraid, therefore, that it would be expected that he should trouble the House
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with some few observations before making the Motion. He believed the House of Commons was aware of the defects which had always prevailed in the Scotch system of Representation; but from the opportunities he had had of conversing with the Members of that House, he did not think that the nature of that system was familiar to them, and he was led to believe, that an imperfect idea was entertained of the incredible defects it contained. The system was indefensible in every part, and it was difficult to explain how it had existed so long in the sight of England, after it had become a part of the empire. But he must say, that any erroneous view entertained of that system might have been dissipated by an observation which he had heard, not without surprise, from the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), in the excellent speech he made on the question that the English Reform Bill do pass. The right hon. Baronet had then alluded to the Scotch system of Representation, as calculated, by its utter and total rejection of the popular element, to counterbalance the excess of the democratic spirit which he imputed to the proposed change. The system of Scotland was not a representation of the Crown, nor of the Peers, nor of the great landed proprietors; but, excluding all these, it was only the representation of a most insignificant oligarchy, not very high in rank or station, and of which the majority was not even connected with the great landed interests. The whole constituency of thirty counties, the whole number of the voters, according to the list of freeholders, did not exceed 3,000, from which were to be deducted between 500 and 600 who had votes and freeholds in two or three counties, making the whole number of voters not exceeding 2,400 or 2,500—a constituency for the whole of Scotland below the average of the smallest counties in England. The constituency of the boroughs was quite as bad. It consisted of the majority of the Town Councils, who elected each other, and the numerical amount of the whole was only 1,440 for the sixty-six boroughs of Scotland. The whole constituency, then, of Scotland, both for the counties and boroughs, was less than 5,000, and probably did not exceed 4,500. The qualification for the right of voting was derived from what were called Superiorities—a species of right without any real property, which were disposed of in the

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market, and gave a man no more power over the land than that they reserved to him some nominal right, such as a pepper-corn rent. All the 2,500 freeholders, who made up the whole constituency of the counties, and were possessed of the right of voting, were not actual landed proprietors. He did not know the actual number of freeholders who were at the same time landed proprietors, but he believed that those who merely owned superiorities were more than the half of the whole; so that, therefore, the half of these 2,500 freeholders were not actually the possessors of property in Scotland. A valuable return to elucidate this had been laid on the Table; it was a list of the freeholders of the different counties of Scotland, and from it he would quote a few particulars. In the county of Argyle, in 1821, there were 47,000 inhabitants, while the number of freeholders was 115; but eighty-four of these were not proprietors, leaving, therefore, only thirty-one actual landowners to return the county Members of 97,000 inhabitants. The next place he would refer to was not of much importance—it was the county of Bute, which had a population of only 14,000, and of which the number of freeholders was twenty-one; but, according to the Return, it appeared that no fewer than twenty of these retained no property whatever in Bute, and that the whole 14,000 inhabitants were represented by one single voter living in the county. His right hon. friend opposite knew something more of the county of Bute than he did, and perhaps he knew other instances similar to that which he would mention to the House. At an election at Bute, not beyond the memory of man, only one person attended the Meeting, except the Sheriff and the Returning Officer. He, of course, took the Chair, constituted the Meeting, called over the roll of the freeholders, answered to his own name, took the vote as to the Preses, and elected himself. He then moved and seconded his own nomination, put the question to the vote, and was unanimously returned. Similar events had, he believed, taken place since. Caithness was the next county he would refer to, which with 30,000 inhabitants, contains forty-seven freeholders, and thirty-six have no property in the county. Dumbarton numbered seventy-one freeholders, but fifty-two of them have no property in the county; and Inverness, which has a population
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of 90,000, has eighty-eight free holders, and no fewer than fifty of them have no property in Inverness-shire. He would not fatigue the House with more particulars; he knew that, in some of the counties, the proportion of resident freeholders was greater, but he believed he did not exaggerate the proportion when he said, upon an average, that more than one-half of those who exercised the right of voting had no property whatever in the land, and that they exercised their right to the exclusion of the real landed proprietors. That was a system of glaring absurdity. It injured the resident gentry, and all those who were connected with land. The proportion of freeholders, he regretted to say, who had no property, was on the increase. The superiorities which gave them this right were a species of merchandise, were bought and sold, and were very often purchased by attornies, who found, that by expending a few hundred pounds, they could get employed as agents through the influence of a freehold qualification, and increase their business at the expense of the county. He had already stated what the proportion of the constituency in the boroughs was, and for the sixty-six boroughs, the whole number of electors was only 1,440, and they consisted of the members of the Town Council, who mutually and reciprocally elected each other. They were renewed indeed every year, but they chose one another. In Glasgow, a city containing 200,000 people, distinguished for their wealth and intelligence, the whole constituency consists of only thirty-three individuals; and, should a contest arise, seventeen persons would decide for the whole city. But moreover, they shared the right of electing a Member with three other towns, and thus the inhabitants of Glasgow have only the fourth part of a Member to look after all their great, varied, and complicated interests. Edinburgh, with 165,000 inhabitants, stood in the same predicament. The Member—it had a Member to itself—was chosen by a majority of thirty-three persons, who represented the whole intelligence of that great city, though they were themselves not distinguished for wealth and intelligence, and might, in general, be placed rather below the middle classes. He would not allude to Aberdeen and Dundee, with 50,000 or 60,000 inhabitants, each of which had, only a fourth or a fifth share

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in electing a Representative. He did not exaggerate the faults of this system, which was all that was vicious as a system of Representation; and so vicious and so indefensible, that the existence of such glaring absurdities would hardly be believed, if they were stated for the first time on any light authority. This system had existed ever since the Union, and even before. He knew that it would be said that, notwithstanding, Scotland had been prosperous; and that, under the fostering care of this system, she had increased in wealth, population, and intelligence. If it were true, that Scotland was indebted for all her wealth and prosperity—for her uniform advance in civilization—for her internal peace and contentment—for the. preservation of good, to this admirable institution, no answer, he thought, could be made to one of two alternatives—either a system of popular Representation was of no use whatever, or the great prosperity of Scotland, which had been referred to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as a proof of the advantages of the present system of Representation in England, could only be looked on as reductio ad absurdum, for in Scotland there was no Representation at all. He admitted the great prosperity of Scotland, her increase in wealth and intelligence, but he denied that this increase and this improvement had been caused by that system which had usurped the name of Representation. Scotland, within the last half century, had made great and splendid advances in every element of wealth and industry; but would any man say, that this proceeded from limiting the numbers of her constituency, and from a system which excluded the whole of her proprietors from a voice in the government of their affairs; and that putting twenty or thirty superiorities over 200,000 electors was so advantageous, that you should preserve that, as being conducive to prosperity, and so entirely the cause of it, that to remove it would place all in imminent peril? He could not part from this portion of the subject without intimating his own disbelief and contradiction of the fact, that the influence of this system had been beneficial, or rather without, on the contrary, declaring it to have been pernicious and detrimental. He said, that Scotland, since the days of her feudal government and warlike glory, never had the benefit of popular Representation; and that,
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when the changes in the structure of society had made popular rights available, the defects of her elective system had been aggravated by the Union with England, although they had been, no doubt, greatly compensated by the benefits she had in other respects derived from her connexion with this country. He also said, that the want of Representation was felt by the whole body of the people, and by many individuals whose feelings had induced them loudly to complain. The feudal period of the history of Scotland they might pass over. Certainly, in the separate state of that kingdom, and before the union of the two Crowns, we could see but the dawning of that intelligence, and that wealth, which were the ground works of a free Constitution. From that period to the time of the Union, the condition of Scotland had been a matter of surprise and compassion to the world, and to Scotland herself a scene of humiliation and of shame. Her servile Parliament her venal Statesmen—her pliant and corrupt tribunals, and her extreme acts of rigour to suppress discontent, which were yielded to without a murmur, spoke volumes to the historical student of the condition of Scotland. She had always for her means, and for the limits of her territory, more than her share of eminentindividuals. Scholars and warriors she possessed in abundance; but she had no parliamentary heroes—she had no champions of popular rights—she had no noble leaders of the people's cause, for there did not exist that arena for their display, as the Constitution of the country prevented it. There might have been in the last stages of her separate existence a Fletcher of Saltoun, and a Lord Belhaven; though of these he was not a passionate admirer, as their zeal was national, and not popular. Why, even during the great outbreak and overflow of English liberty which threw down the throne, and deluged the land with a portentous and alarming flood, but which, at the same time, brought along with it the fertilising mould, and left the seeds of that harvest of liberty which we have reaped successfully ever since; even then Scotland took no part on the ground of civil liberty, and he could not see amongst those who took part in the struggle at that time, any other share than that which emanated from a gloomy fanaticism, and a devoted and a sincere attachment to their religion. And it was lamentable

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and melancholy to see a religious people, whose religious education had been attended to by the Government, while they submitted to other oppressions quite as grievous, fly to arms only when their religion was attacked. The only struggles made by the Covenanters was for their conventicles and their Bibles; and, while they suffered political oppressions unresisted, drew their swords at once for a scattered remnant and a broken covenant. That was a proof that, to secure tranquillity and justice, political instruction and political freedom were wanted. Then last came the Union with England. That was a bargain, but it was an ungenerous one; the stronger party imposing conditions that seemed not equitable on the weaker. It might have been expected, that when the two Legislatures were united, in order to make room for the two together, that a fair diminution would have been made in both: but it was not so, and the whole diminution was made on one side. In order to make a fair and equitable Union, the Legislature of both countries should have been reduced in proportion; but while England retained her whole 513 Members, not one-third of her Representatives were left to Scotland; and her 157 Members were reduced to forty-five. He was not contending against the Union. Scotland had benefitted by having her interests brought under the view of the English Legislature, and by having them watched over by Members who represented the whole kingdom. He begged not to be understood as defending virtual Representation; but Scotland had derived from England, not merely the benefit of greater liberality of ideas, but greater knowledge of political rights, and more respect for political duties. Had the nomination of the forty-five Representatives of Scotland been vested in a Sovereign possessed of uncontrolled power, or reposed in the discretion of the Commander-in-chief of the Army, he was confident, that out of the many able and well-informed men with which Scotland fortunately abounded, the Representatives would have discharged their duties conscientiously, and with a due and fitting regard to the honour and interests of their native country. But—and this was the great and crying grievance of the system—the connexion between these forty-five thus selected, and the persons who would be miscalled their constituents, the sympathy
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with their feelings, the knowledge of their wants or their wishes, would have been as great as that which now subsists between the people and the forty-five Gentlemen who had the honour of sitting in that House for the counties and boroughs of Scotland. They confer, like a gracious despot, the favour of their countenance to Scotland, and of their protection to her interests; but for the discharge of those duties which a just system of Representation requires, the people have no security, and no pledge—their resentment is not feared—the consequences of neglect are not cared for, and their gratitude neither hoped for nor considered worth the slightest estimation. Looking back to the best part of the period since the Union, he certainly could not deny, that the Representatives of Scotland had been all men remarkable for their respectability of character, their intelligence, and their willingness to promote the interests of their country. But—and the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) referred to it as a matter of illustration the other evening—the Representatives of Scotland, during the same period, had almost wholly, from the causes he had already described, been of the court rather than what is called the country party, always found supporting the Minister, and swelling the ranks of his majority. It was not, however, their want of independence, objectionable as that might be, which formed the chief ground of complaint against the Representatives for Scotland: it was their alienation from the people; it was the absence of all opportunity of intercourse—the cutting off of all the tenures by which the elected should be connected with the elector, and through which their opinions on any subject of local interest could be brought to bear on the discretion of these Representatives. For full fifty years after the Union with England, he admitted that Scotland exhibited no symptoms of national feeling on any subject except religion; and the want of an adequate Representation excited no attention amongst its people; but this was the result of a state of ignorance which the advantages of a rapidly increasing trade, and a more extended intercourse with other countries, have now so thoroughly dispelled, that there was scarcely a man to be found in Scotland who was not in some degree imbued with the impression, that they were entitled to have some portion of those privileges which they saw in possession of the

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people of the other divisions of the empire. But it was not so much on the growing up of this spirit as on the direction it had taken, that he rested an unanswerable argument for that extension of rights contained in the Bill. If he wanted an argument of more than common weight beyond that of justice and principle, it would be found in the growing urgency for Reform, which arose from the perfect knowledge of political rights, with a sense of the power to maintain them, which now pervaded the great mass of the people of Scotland. Beyond all that, there had, however, been growing up for some time a spirit of dissatisfaction, not applying itself to the Government, but, if he might say so, apart from the Government; a spirit producing opinions not in connexion will the Aristocracy of the land—not going along with it, but apart from it—manifesting itself in times of quiet by indifference, and in times of disturbances by open hostility. Notwithstanding all this, the knowledge of which was, he thought possessed by every man in Scotland, and the universal demand for Reform, by which it betrayed its existence and extent, an hon. Member had declared the other evening, that the demand for a better system of Representation in Scotland was anything but general. He (the Lord Advocate) took it upon him to deny that assertion and to state positively, that the demand for Reform pervaded all classes in that country, except those few privileged persons who monopolised its Representation and the benefits which flowed from the monopoly; and he believed most sincerely, that in no part of the Empire were the people more sensible of the extent of their rights, or more determined to obtain them. The petitions from Scotland might enable the House to form some conception of the feelings of the people. Scotland had little better than two millions of inhabitants; England and Ireland had two or three and twenty, and yet the petitions from Scotland in favour of Reform were more numerous than those received from all the rest of the Empire put together. The feeling in favour of Reform was, indeed, and he spoke from his own knowledge, greater, deeper, severer, more settled, fixed and resolute, and indestructible among the great body of the intelligent and independent of the middle classes, than it was possible, without an opportunity of Studying their character, or viewing the
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traces of its existence and the circumstances attending them, for the House to conceive. And the reason of this was obvious. They saw the current of opinion flowing through all classes—they knew the power which they possessed to give it effect—and they were deeply sensible therefore of the necessity of Reform, because they saw the dangers of a serious concussion, in the event of the failure of their expectations, to be more alarming and more pregnant with mischief than those which might take place even in Birmingham or Manchester. He testified to this as one speaking not without knowledge. He testified to it, he admitted, not without pain, but he testified to it as a matter of fact in connexion with a number of others, of which the testimony was complete, that ought to have considerable weight over the decisions of the House. He would proceed, after having endeavoured to show the nature of the mischievous system which had prevailed, to explain the substance of that better system which he hoped to substitute in its room; and to whatever criticism that system might be liable, or to whatever suggestions it might be open, he would at once set out by stating that any change must be for the better, but that the total abolition of all these abuses was the most desirable, and he was sure would prove the most satisfactory. He would then at once declare that the object of the Bill was not to take away any part of the system, but to take down the whole of it, to take it down altogether, for the whole principle of it was bad. He gloried in making the avowal that no shred or rag, no jot or tittle of it was to be left. Who would venture to get up and gravely say, that the holder of a bit of parchment—that 113 persons, of whom perhaps not two-thirds possessed any property, were to usurp the rights of 100,000 of their fellow citizens?—that Magistrates re-electing each other should be allowed to stand between the Legislature and the wealth, the intelligence, and the industry of the community? The Bill before the House said, that twenty-one, or thirty-three, or any other number of Magistrates or of electors who have usurped exclusive privileges, should no longer arrogate to themselves the power of disposing of the constitutional rights of their fellow citizens, and, without the shadow of a pretence, nominating whom they pleased to represent them in the Council of the Empire,

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He would not then detain the House by going into any detailed explanation of the qualification proposed in the Bill. It had been already printed and made public. He should merely say, that some modifications would, probably, be necessary in the Committee, so far as related to corresponding alterations in the English Reform Bill, and for the purpose of rendering its provisions more analogous to some of those introduced in the course of the late discussions. The qualification was to be, the payment of 10 l. rent by a householder. Proprietors of heritages of 10 l. a-year were already proposed, and leaseholders for a term of sixty years, to vote for counties. Glasgow was to have two Members; and, according to a late estimate, it would be found that, under the new arrangement, there would be a constituency of 8,000 persons. The City of Edinburgh was also to have two Members; Aberdeen, Dundee, Paisley, Greenock, and Leith, with Musselburgh and Portobello, each of them having more than 40,000 Inhabitants, were to have one Member each. These, with some little alterations in the classification of the boroughs formed all the points which it was necessary to notice at that stage of the Bill. Before he concluded, he could not, however, abstain from saying one or two words with respect to an argument urged frequently against the English Reform Bill, and which would, doubtless, be revived in the Course of the coming debates. That argument was founded on the question of why they introduced a measure abounding with anomalies, for the purpose of merely superseding anomalies of another description which could not be suffered longer to exist. Now he conceived that hon. Gentlemen laboured under a mistake in the view they took of this principle, and that they seemed to forget the application was purely with reference to extreme cases. To take, for instance, the course pursued in the English Reform Bill. They disfranchised Gatton and Old Sarum and Midhurst, but they left in one schedule, places which could muster 2,000 inhabitants, and in another, places which could number 4,000, giving them one or two Members respectively. If they had been called on for the first time to frame a new system, he did not mean to contend that they would not and should not act differently, but in the situation in which they were placed it was necessary to draw a line, and they thought it better to cut off the extreme
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cases and those which verged on a palpable absurdity as connected with any system of Representation. To take an illustration of another kind: in recruiting for the army, men might probably be found of full height and strength at seventeen, and of good health and sound constitution at sixty-one; but still it was necessary to take a rule, and, as in the case of the boroughs, to cast off the extreme cases. He had only to observe, that they made an addition to the total number of Members; a small one, he admitted, but it was an addition which could do no injury to the existing constituency; and by the means of that and the other alterations, they hoped to make an addition of fifty real Representatives on behalf of Scotland in the British Legislature. In order to avoid setting the example of going into the details at a stage of the Bill when they were called on to consider the principle, he should abstain from saying more at present on that subject, and he entreated the House not to impede the progress of the measure by any objections which did not apply to the question of whether the Bill should be read then, or on that day six months. He moved that the Bill be then read a second time.
Mr. Charles Douglassaid, that in offering his observations on the Bill now under discussion, he was as anxious as the noble and learned Lord to avoid entering into any details, objecting, as he did, to the principles of the measure, so strongly as to wish he could induce the noble Lord to postpone its second reading altogether. He was ready to admit, that the interest which the noble and learned Lord had justly described to exist in Scotland on the subject of Reform, certainly existed in a very powerful degree; but it was caused by efforts of so extraordinary a nature as to be calculated to mislead rather than guide the judgments of those who expressed so vehement a desire for Reform. He was strongly of opinion, that the correction of the present Representation of Scotland ought to be and might be, effected in a manner that would not, as this measure would, entirely disrupt and break up all the domestic ties and habits of the people in every county in Scotland. He was ready to admit, that great changes had taken place in the last fifty years in Scotland; they had changed from a state of poverty to one of comparative wealth—from barrenness to cultivation—from ignorance to knowledge—and

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lastly, though not least in importance, they had changed from a state of rebellion to one of strong and enthusiastic loyalty. But he could not allow of the noble Lord's other statements as to the changes in the people of Scotland—for their reasons in demanding Reform were attributable to far other causes than those which he had so eloquently described. The learned Lord gave a much worse picture of the constituency of Scotland than the occasion required. He admitted that the parchment votes were an abuse and a grievance, and if the learned Lord had proposed, and it were found possible, to get rid of the system of separating the superiorities from the property, he was willing to give him his support. He thought that the plan of the learned Lord was a direct attack on the agriculturists, and that it would give the whole power of the Representation into the hands of the manufacturers. The separation of the counties was, in his opinion, peculiarly objectionable. Dumbartonshire, for instance, which was to be united with the county of Bute, and to have only one Member, had a population greater than two English counties, or than fifty of the English boroughs which were allowed to retain their right of returning one and two Members each. He was convinced, indeed, that Scotland could claim at least sixty Members, on grounds as good as those which gave Members to the new boroughs in the manufacturing districts. If property in houses were to give a vote, it must be placed, he conceived, on a very different footing and different valuation. The payment of 20 l. for a house was but equal to 10 l. for land, for it should be recollected that, in addition to all sorts of duties, the land of the heritor was subject to the payment of all the poor-rates. He admitted that the system of self-election among the magistracy of Scotland was bad, but still, the measure for remedying it went much too far; and he considered the danger likely to result as worthy of the most serious consideration, from the influence which the Representation of the great towns must exercise over the whole body of the constituency. He approved of the plan of giving Representatives to those great towns, and if the present Bill went no further than that, he was quite willing to support it. Conceiving, however, that it went much too far, he would move that it be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. Ramseydeclared, that the Bill was, in his opinion, too sweeping, and decidedly revolutionary. Great stress had been laid on the general demand for Reform put forth in the petitions from Scotland, and at the late elections, but he contended, that both the one and the other were the work of individuals, and that the elections had not been carried on in that straightforward manner which would enable them to judge of the real sentiments of the people. He was far from being one of those who were opposed to all Reform in the Representation of Scotland. An extension of the elective franchise was, to a certain degree, and with reference to large towns, in his opinion, desirable; but he trusted the House would pause before they went to the extent to which the Bill under consideration would carry them. For himself, he spoke without any reference to party considerations. He was wholly independent of party, and was quite ready to support whatever Ministers appeared to him best to support the interests of his country.
Mr. Gillonobserved, that in claiming for a short time the attention of the House, he would not enter upon the general question of Reform, after the very long and fatiguing discussion it had undergone in this Parliament and the last, but would confine himself as closely as possible to that branch of it which affected Scotland. Allusions had been made to the riots which had taken place in Scotland during the elections. And what were they after all? A few stones thrown—a very common occurrence at elections. A few noisy demonstrations of feeling in other parts of the country. He would ask, had nothing been done to provoke those riots by the injudicious conduct of the authorities, and the improper introduction of military force insultingly paraded before the people? Instead of wondering at this trifling effervescence, his only astonishment was, as is stated by one of the most talented newspapers of the day, that a state of things so revolting to common sense had not produced, on an occasion like this, an ebullition of popular fury in every part of the country. The people of Scotland had been always deemed a highly educated, intelligent people, and were any proof wanting of this, it was, that the close corporations of Scotland had, on the present occasion, by a large majority, returned men of liberal principles, and alive to the signs of the times, whereas the close boroughs of

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England had returned men wedded and pledged to every ancient abuse, to every vile corrupt system which had impoverished and disgraced the country; the light of reason had penetrated the murky cloud of northern darkness, and the necessity for Reform had reached even that beau ideal of a boroughmonger's imagination—the constituency of Scotland. The House had been told in the last Parliament, that the people of Scotland were indifferent to Reform, and this declaration had proceeded from the Member for the capital; but that hon. Member had only proved how little he was acquainted with the wishes of the city he was said to represent. It might be very true, that the Town Council of Edinburgh were indifferent, nay, averse to Reform, and the late election had proved that a great majority of them were still so. This was not to be wondered at, considering the many snug jobs they had been enabled to share in. He did not mean to impute any thing improper to the present Magistrates of Edinburgh, with some of whom he was well acquainted, and whom he highly respected. He was sure if they were to job, it would be for their city not for themselves. This was a more excusable species of jobbing, but this had not been the case in the royal burghs of Scotland. He ventured to say, that the history of the royal burghs of Scotland presented a scene of corruption, petty tyranny, fraud, and demoralization, both in their elections and their municipal government, unexampled in any other part of the kingdom, and barely credible to those not acquainted with the facts and the pitiable results. He begged to ask hon. Members acquainted with the subject, if almost all the burghs of Scotland, with funds originally more than sufficient for carrying on their affairs, were not now deeply in debt—if their funds had not been wasted in the most absurd and useless litigations, and in grants to the Magistrates themselves and their creatures? Nor could any one be surprised that it was so, when they saw a body of men meeting at the end of each year to carry on the farce of self-election; and that even the small infusion of popular opinion in the Town Councils, from the Representatives of the Trades, was controlled by a power in the self-elected to strike out one, two, or more from the list presented to them. When it was considered that these men were irresponsible for their conduct, and held their places in
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defiance of every dictate of reason and common sense, what could be expected? He spoke warmly on this subject, because he had too lamentable a picture of this fact before his eyes, in what had occurred in a burgh he had now the honour to represent, not to feel warmly on the subject. He wished for a general measure of Reform, because in a Reformed Parliament we must immediately follow up that first step by burgh Reform, which the people of Scotland might in vain have called for to a Parliament as rotten as those who sent them? He begged to thank the noble Lord who had introduced this measure, and the learned Lord Advocate for Scotland on behalf of the burghs of Scotland, and to tell him, that this was one of the tangible and practical benefits that must ensue from the carrying it. He did not mean to press this subject at present, but he pledged himself in a future Session, or, should he have the honour of a seat in a future Parliament, to bring forward or support a wholesome system of burgh Reform. He asked again, could there be a stronger proof, were any wanting, of the necessity of Reform in the Scotch system of Representation, than the facts of the late Edinburgh election, when seventeen self-elected individuals—at least the great majority of them were so—succeeded in forcing a Representative on the inhabitants of that metropolis against the wishes of ninety-nine out of a hundred of them? Having said thus much, he begged to offer his humble testimony to the upright and independent conduct and public spirit generally of the Town Councils of Scotland at the late election; men who, from their station in life, might have been supposed to be the most biassed to the old system, by which they had been in the habit of receiving direct personal advantage. With a generosity worthy of the country which gave them birth, they declared themselves ready to sacrifice all personal or corporate considerations on the altar of their country, in voting for a measure now so imperatively called for. Had the freeholders of Scotland, men in a high sphere of life, and supposed to be better educated than the Town Councils, evinced an equal liberality, the returns from that country would have been more creditable than they were. But seeing, as who could not see, the blindness and tenacity of Princes and Potentates, could they wonder that Scotch lairds, generally

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necessitous, and hungry after places and pensions, should stick closely to the system by which they had hitherto so largely and exclusively profited? He would now only observe, that if the Scotch burgh system was bad, that of the county Representation rivalled it in absurdity—a franchise not depending on property, for it was more frequently disjoined from than united to it; confined to a most limited and inadequate constituency, and participating in all the barbarisms of feudal institutions. What had been the result of all this? Why that the Scotch Members had been generally a nonentity in that House. He could not suppose this had arisen because men of greater talent could not be found, but because men of talent hated and detested the system of jobbing it was necessary to pursue. And here he could not resist relating an anecdote of a Scotch county Member, which afforded a pretty good specimen of the lot with some honorable exceptions. Of this gentleman it was said—and he begged to add that he was a staunch supporter of Mr. Pitt and his policy—that his invariable rule was, never to be present at a debate or absent at a division—and that he had only once, in his long political life, ventured to vote according to his conscience, and that he found on that occasion he had voted wrong. Call you this a Representative, or a Delegate, or what? He would undertake to make as good a one any day out of a bundle of straw. He trusted he might be permitted to allude to what had fallen on a previous evening from the hon. member for Nairne, when he rather prematurely introduced the subject of the Scotch Bill. The hon. Member had told the House that the farmers of Scotland were averse to the measure of his Majesty's Government. He did not know how the hon. Member had got that information. The farmers of East Lothian, the greatest agricultural district of Scotland, had petitioned for it—the farmers in his part of the country had shown no aversion to it; and he had since met a friend of his, a very large northern proprietor, who said he had not met a man of any description in the north who was not favourable to it. And as the leasehold votes were to be given, and most properly so, in England, surely, for the sake of that uniformity, which Gentlemen on the other side contended for, it would not be denied to the yeomanry of Scotland—a body of men so
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intelligent, and, he would add, so loyal, that he did not hesitate to say they were as fit to judge of what was good for their interests as any Member of the House. It was really difficult to know how to meet the arguments of Gentlemen on the other side—they blamed this Bill in the gross, because it established too great an uniformity of voting; and they then pulled it to pieces in detail, because it was not uniform enough. They said, why was there not a 40 s. franchise in the counties of Scotland as it prevailed in England? He himself had no objection to a 40 s. franchise—the Representation could not be made too popular; but would this please the hon. Gentleman who pointed out the inconsistency? He would say, that the rottenest borough now about to be disfranchised in England was not more in need of amendment than the Scotch counties; the traffic in votes went on, not for money, perhaps, but for place and emolument. He supposed he should be told how much Scotland had flourished since the Union, and that, therefore, its system must be excellent; but he contended that Scotland had flourished, not in consequence of, but in spite of, her system of representation; and something was to be ascribed to the infusion of some portion of popular ingredients from the Union with England, where, with all the rotten boroughs, there were not half so many defects—so many glaring absurdities—such a decided want of all that constituted representation—as prevailed in Scotland. He repeated what he had said on a previous occasion, that, however he might wish that Ministers might find it consistent with their arrangements to give additional Members to Scotland, he must ever regard this, and he was sure his countrymen did so too, as a great and magnificent boon, as giving them not five but fifty Members at once; for he defied any man to prove that Scotland had, hitherto, been represented at all, or that her energies had not been cramped and deadened, instead of being fostered and cherished by her system of representation. On the minor details of the Bill he did not mean to enlarge now, but he would take the liberty of expressing freely his opinion in the Committee, though hon. Gentlemen called him a delegate. The principle of the Bill should have his warmest support, more especially as putting an end to the system of voting in counties, and certainly without compensation, which

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he hoped he should never hear urged again, after the very able and eloquent refutation of that doctrine by the hon. member for Calne. When last in Scotland, he had mingled much and often with the people of all classes—he had attended meetings consisting of many thousands of his countrymen, and he had found them all actuated but by one spirit—the most devoted loyalty to their King—the hearty approbation of the measure of Reform submitted by his Majesty's Government—and the most thorough dislike to the boroughmongering faction, who would rivet more firmly the chains that already gall us to the quick. They hail this as the commencement of a new era of economy in the administration of affairs, and as giving them some voice in the election of those who impose their burthens, the main end of all representation. He rejoiced to think, that it had been admitted on the other side of the House, that the Government of the country had been somewhat expensive. This was, no doubt, a very soft and decorous mode of expressing what he would characterize as profligate extravagance, and contempt both for the wishes and interests of the country. And here was another of the practical goods arising from Reform. Had our burthens not gone on increasing? And what security had we in the integrity of a Parliament, the nominees of individuals, that our funds should not again be equally and scandalously wasted in carrying on long and unjust wars against the liberties of mankind, or in pampering those minions of Government, who, while suffered to riot in luxury and ease, cared not for the groans or sufferings of their countrymen. When the Members of that House—Representatives he would not call them—were not amenable for their conduct to their constituents, there was but little encouragement to hope that frugality would be the order of the day. He hailed this measure of Reform, especially as introducing into his native country a better system of representation, founded not on ideal possession of paper votes separated from real property, not on the disgusting system of close and self-elected corporations, but on the property and intelligence of the country; he trusted, that with this extended constituency, well-informed, and full of loyalty and patriotism as he knew his countrymen to be, that hereafter Members for Scotland would be something better
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than non-entities, which they had too generally been in the House; and that in appealing to their constituents, they would to secure their votes, use some argument more worthy of themselves and their country, than this hitherto too general one—"that they were ready to inflict on their country any burthen, however galling, or make their votes subservient to the carrying of any job of the Minister of the day." This might seem strong language, but he assured the House it was the language and feeling of the great majority of his countrymen, who had been maligned by being called indifferent to Reform. If they had at any time appeared less zealous in the cause of Reform, it was because hope had given place to sullen despair; they loved their King, and respected the institutions and laws of their country and, detested revolution; but after the flagrant case of East Retford, what hope had they at that time, that, by constitutional means, they were to arrive at a correction of the manifold abuses of the representative part of the Constitution? Hon. Members on both sides of the House had spoken of their belief, from local knowledge, in a reaction having taken place on this important subject. He was bound to express his deep conviction, that in Scotland no such reaction had taken place. As in that country Reform was most required, in consequence of the existence of abuses, so there the feeling in its favour was the strongest—the most deeply rooted: he could not quote a stronger instance of that deep-rooted feeling than in the transactions that took place at the election for the county of Stirling. When the result of the votes of the freeholders of that county was announced to the assembled multitude who had left the town, that they might not be accused of endeavouring to dictate or overawe, what then took place? Instead of breaking into noisy and riotous expressions of disapprobation, they reversed the flags which they had carried in honour of their generous and beloved Monarch, and in mute and mournful procession left the field. This silence spoke more loudly than ten thousand tongues. Were these men to be easily turned aside from the settled purpose of their minds by a change of Administration, or protracted delay to the accomplishment of their hopes? The memory of their noble ancestors—the sense of their own wrongs, was too strong to be easily obliterated.

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You might as well go stand upon the beach and bid the tide to bate its usual height, as by protracted debates on the minor details of the Bill, or even by holding up to their view as ranged against them the august body of the Aristocracy, for whom they naturally entertained the most sincere respect, expect to shake the firm resolve of an enlightened and united people.
Sir George Warrendercomplimented his hon. friend who had spoken last but one on the talent which he had exhibited, but he could not agree with him as to the general state of feeling in Scotland with respect to Reform. For himself, he certainly felt obliged to unsay much of what he had said upon the subject in March last. Whatever shafts of ridicule might be directed against him for this declaration, he trusted that the House would do him the justice to believe, that the change proceeded from honourable and honest motives. On a former occasion he had expressed his opinion, that the people of Scotland, and particularly the inhabitants of the metropolis, if not hostile to any Parliamentary Reform, were at least indifferent to it. After the firebrand of the English Bill had been thrown amongst them, however, there was a change; and he believed that there now did exist in Scotland an earnest desire for the adoption of the measure of Reform. Such being the case, he was ready to abandon those rights which he felt he must abandon. But why was he ready to abandon them? To secure the tranquillity and interests of his country. He confessed this might appear strange in him who had formerly used such strong language, and even characterized the measure as one of spoliation. The state of Scotland now, and of its present feeling, would be his best apology for the change of sentiment he confessed he had undergone. He had, however, been always so far a Reformer as to feel the expediency of admitting all great, rising, and aspiring interests into the Representation, from which an older and more restricted policy had excluded them. As for the English Reform Bill, he had felt it to be his duty to oppose it in all its stages; although in so doing he had run counter to all considerations of: private friendship and attachment—a proof, he hoped, that he was not actuated by any undue motives. He certainly thought, that an increase of the Members
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for Scotland would be beneficial to that country; and he should vote for the second reading of the Scottish Bill, because he did not apprehend any danger to Scotland from the measure; whereas he had voted against the second reading of the English Bill, because he did apprehend, at that time, and he still apprehended danger to England from the measure. As to the details of the Bill, he should state his objections to several of them when the Bill went into a Committee; and especially to the proposed marriage of certain districts and counties, the banns of which had been forbidden by all hands in Scotland. There were various enactments, however, of which he approved; in particular that by which the eldest sons of Peers of Scotland, who were now precluded, were admitted into the House. To other parts of the Bill he could not consent; yet it was capable of being so remodelled and improved in the Committee, as to recommend itself to those who might object to it in its present state. He, therefore, should give his assent to the second reading of the Bill, reserving his objections till it was in Committee. He had heard nothing from the learned Lord which made him suppose that the accession of members to the Representation of Scotland was to be limited to five. If his Majesty's Government would consent to add a further accession of five more Members, he was sure nothing would tend so much to increase the popularity of the measure in Scotland.
Mr. Keith Douglasthought it would be inexpedient to vote against the second reading of the Bill; because that would be to imply that they were against all Reform. Unless they gave the people of Scotland the opportunity of seeing, from the discussions in the Committee, what it was proposed to do, he did not think that they would be satisfied. In one remark of the learned Lord he could not concur, namely, that there had been a great separation of feeling between the higher and lower classes in Scotland. He believed there was no such separation. On the contrary, it was a sort of complaint that there was a peculiar mutual kindness subsisting between his countrymen. This, therefore, was not one of those reasons on which the change of Representation could be founded. The circumstances of Scotland, its vast improvement during the last fifty or sixty years, in comparison

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with England, and with other of our distant possessions, showed that the state of its Representation was no bar to the intellect of the country; yet a growing feeling had extended itself before this Bill was submitted to the country, that additional Representation should be given to the great towns. As compared with what had been done for England by the Bill that had just been passed, he did not think that this Bill was any boon to Scotland, as the Lord Advocate had supposed it to be. The learned Lord had said, that Scotland had had the worst of the Union; if so, it was the duty of the learned Lord, in laying down the rules that were to be their guidance in future, to improve the relative condition of Scotland as compared with England. He had not done so in this Bill, and he would be giving no benefit to Scotland unless a very considerable number more of members was given to that country than what she now possessed. With the exception of Members given to a few large towns in Scotland, there was no increase whatever. Under these circumstances, he thought that justice had not been done to Scotland; and he declared, that if this Bill was to pass, it must undergo a very serious alteration in that respect. For himself, he certainly would not consent to pass the Bill, until several alterations had been made in it, so as to give Scotland her fair share in the Representation of the United Kingdom.
Mr. Robert Ferguson, said, that the hon. Member who had just sat down, was mistaken as to the wishes of Scotland upon this Reform Bill. What they wanted was—not a mere increase of the number of their Representatives—but such a change of system as would secure them an independent constituency. They desired to have the advantages that would be afforded by the means of making an independent return of their Members, an advantage which as yet they had never had. When the learned Lord said, that Scotland had the worst of the Union, he meant—not that Scotland had not Members enough given her, but that the means of obtaining an independent constituency were not secured. That disadvantage was now to be compensated, and an independent constituency created. He had always hoped to see the time when Scotland would be able to return Members independently; and he believed that the moment
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had now arrived. In that respect the Union had done no good to Scotland, but it had drawn a thorn from the side of England. All the advantage had, therefore, been with England, but now he hoped that the system of ruling Scotland by patronage would be at an end, and that Scotland would enjoy the benefits of which it had hitherto been deprived. The system under which Scotland had been governed had degraded its political character. They had often heard from the mouths of English gentlemen the expression of Scotch jobs, and he believed that it was well warranted. A system of corruption the most gross had hitherto prevailed there, and had, he repeated, degraded the political character of the people. That blot had, however, been now wiped away by the honest and honourable enthusiasm which the people there had lately manifested in favour of Reform. His standing there was a proof of that enthusiasm and of its purity. He had been returned by the Corporation of the town he represented, because they were wise and honest enough to see that the property in elections which they had hitherto possessed was inconsistent with the true independence and happiness of their country. He denied that there was in Scotland any dislike towards the higher orders; and he asserted most positively, that the Scotch entertained, as they had always done, a strong feeling of attachment towards their superiors. The spirit now raised in Scotland was not that of a turbulent insurbodination, but of a desire to obtain those political rights of which the mass of the people, notwithstanding their intelligence and industry, had hitherto been deprived. The higher orders would always be able to keep up their proper influence in the country, but they must keep it up by kindness and good conduct; the repellent system, on the contrary, was fraught with vexation and mischief to those who had recourse to it. Their English and Irish brethren had long held out the hand of friendship to Scotland, on the score of her hospitality; he trusted they would now be able to do so on the score of her political independence and her constitutional liberty.
Colonel Lindsaycomplimented the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, on the speech he had just delivered; but could not agree with him in the opinions he had expressed. He knew the course that his constituents would pursue towards him,

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for the opposition he should give this Bill; he knew that they would elect another in his stead; but that would not deter him from doing his duty. He had ever been the advocate of reform where abuses had been pointed out, and where the remedy was shewn; but that was not the reason why he should support this Bill, which he thought was fraught with mischief. Upon that principle he had supported the government of the Duke of Wellington, who was not opposed to Reform, but was only opposed to speculative notions of Reform. The last Ministers had done many things deserving the thanks of the people, especially in the reduction of taxes; but in contrast with them, the present Ministers had done nothing. If the poor of that country were to be supplied with what they wanted, and the condition of the lower orders was to be bettered by this Bill, he should support it; but as it was not proved to him that the Bill would have any such effect, he should oppose it. He asked the stranger who had visited Scotland, whether the rich man there did not live upon his property? and whether he did not bestow a portion of the blessings he had received for himself upon others? whether it was not true that the people there were among the best agriculturists of the day? that they taught the principles of it to others? that the lower orders were happy, contented and grateful? that the law in that country was fairly and justly administered? that the people were moral—that their religion, though primitive in its forms, was respectable? who, then, could deny that that country was happy? that it was most flourishing? that all the blessings of Heaven were showered upon it? that these blessings were the consequences of that Constitution under which they had long and happily lived? He objected to this Bill, that by its provisions respecting the 10 l. householders, it would throw all the power into the hands of the manufacturers. The farmers were, in many places, few and scattered, and they would be overpowered by the influence thus given to the 10 l. householders. He objected to it besides, that it put an unconstitutional power into the hands of Sheriffs of counties, with respect to the registration of voters. He maintained also, that this Bill did not give a fair proportion of Members to Scotland, considering the wealth and population of that country. The proportion
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had been long settled, and being altered, as it was now proposed to be, the Articles of Union were violated; while, at the same time, justice was not done to Scotland. He maintained that the main principles of this Reform measure were cruel and unjust to Scotland, depriving her, as it did, of any thing like a proportionate share in the Representation of the empire, according to her population, which the noble Lord had put forward as one of the leading principles on which they were to legislate. When such boroughs as Malton, with 4,005, and Monmouth, with 4,100 inhabitants, were to send two Members to Parliament, was it just to Scotland, that some of her populous and wealthy counties were to send half a Member each? He did not deny that the people of Scotland were now desirous of having Reform in those places where the franchise was to be extended to 10 l. householders, and where new Members were to be given. They were desirous now of getting it, because it had been promised them, and it was the character of his countrymen, never to give up their claim to any thing respecting which they had obtained a promise. But he denied that they had sought or wished for Reform, until it was offered them by his Majesty's Government, and recommended to them as a benefit, which he believed it would never prove. The hon. Member then read a list of the petitions presented from Scotland, for Reform, in each of the years, from 1820, downwards. In several of those years there were none, and in others, only one or two. In the year 1828, and 1829, there were none; and in the beginning of 1831, after the excitement created by the acts of the Government, there were 129. What did this prove but that the people, until excited by the Government, were contented with the system under which they lived, and desired no change? He should have been ready to support a moderate and temperate measure, if such a one had been proposed, under the circumstances, but to go from one system to the extreme of another at once was an experiment to which he would not consent. A moderate quantity of wine might be a good thing, but to get intoxicated was the reverse. In fact, there was no good quality under the sun that did not become a fault if carried to excess. Generosity carried too far became extravagance—economy became parsimony—courage, rashness—

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caution, timidity—religion, fanaticism—and even liberty became licentiousness; and this was the point to which this Bill would lead. He opposed this measure on that account, and because he thought that this change was only the precursor to other and greater changes. Last night the Constitution of England had been ejected from the doors of that House by a majority of the Commons of England—a Constitution in the plenitude of its vigour, in the height of its excellence, now purer and more free from corruption than ever it had been; it had been cast forth, to adopt the base, wretched, newborn, deformed, offspring of his Majesty's Ministers; he had almost said, the offspring of a body of reckless men. He must expect that the same fate would attend the Constitution of Scotland. To conclude, he should borrow the words of another, which more elegantly expressed his feelings than his own words might do. He would quote the sentiments of Mr. Canning on a like occasion. In the concluding part of his speech on the question of Reform, in the year 1822, he said, "Although I presume not to think that the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) will give any weight to observations or warnings of mine, yet on this, probably the last, opportunity which I shall have of raising my voice on the question of Parliamentary Reform, while I conjure the House to pause before it consents to adopt the proposition of the noble Lord, I cannot help conjuring the noble Lord himself to pause before he again presses it on the country. If, however, he shall persevere, and if his perseverance shall be successful, and if the result of that, success shall be such as I cannot help apprehending, his be the triumph to have precipitated those results; be mine the consolation that, to the utmost and latest of my power, I opposed them."*
Mr. Charles Grantwas happy to find that the Bill had been discussed with so much temper and moderation. He viewed the measure as one of vast importance to Scotland, where the impression for a long time had been felt, that some change must take place in the state of the Representation there. The people of that country, in fact, regarded Reform to be so indispensable, and believed the government of
* See Hansard's Debates (New Series), vol. vii. p. 136.
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the country to have been so long convinced of that necessity, that they could attribute the delay to nothing but the apprehension that the call for a Scotch, would necessarily invite to a discussion or the merits of an English Reform. Scotland was at present actually without a Representation, for those who were called the Representatives of the people there, were in no way responsible to the people, nor elected by them. He claimed for Scotland, therefore, the right of Representation—the right which had been denied to that country upon the pretence that the people were not free enough to be released from the trammels of exclusion and monopoly, which were added to the other bonds by which they were distinguished from the rest of the empire. The effects of exclusion and monopoly were known to be injurious to commercial traffic in which individuals were concerned, and why should they not operate in a baneful manner when applied politically and against a whole nations? Some hon. Members had spoken of the Scotch Bill as if they feared that it would break down the English Constitution. He did not see how the Scotch Bill could have any effect, except that of giving additional vigour to the English Constitution, by more closely rivetting the connection between the two countries. It was quite impossible that a reciprocity of advantages could arise, when in one country there was not the shadow of a Representation. The Bill would, however, remedy the inequality which established a line of demarcation so unfavourable to Scotland. It was with pride he stated, that in no country did the several classes of the people blend together in a more harmonious manner than in Scotland. It was, indeed, delightful to see feelings which sprung from very different sources mix together, and prove mutually beneficial. Being connected with Scotland, he felt proud in acknowledging the virtues of the Scotch people, and must call upon the House to say whether it was possible to deny any longer, to a population remarkable for learning, industry, and great commercial spirit and exertion, the rights of the Constitution. He was convinced, for his part, that the Government durst not any longer withhold from the Scotch the rights which they claimed so reasonably, and, at the same time, so warmly. The boon would, without doubt, more closely knit together

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the different classes of the community, whereas the refusal of it would constitute between the two countries a barrier which ought never to exist. Above all, he would impress upon the House the necessity of giving the boon cordially, generously, and graciously.
Sir George Clerkwas glad that the House had had the benefit of hearing again the eloquence of the right hon. Gentleman, after so long an interval of silence on his part. He had been curious to hear the right hon. Gentleman explain the grounds upon which he supported that Reform against which he had so often the happiness of dividing with the right hon. Gentleman. But in the midst of all the right hon. Gentleman's declamation, and the talent with which he never failed to address the House, he had given no reason whatever for the measure, excepting that which all the supporters of the English Bill had given for it, namely, that the people willed it. He denied that any other reason could be given, and appealed to the condition of the people of Scotland as a proof that no extensive change was required in that country. When they were told so much of the evils of the representative system in Great Britain, as resulting from the theoretic defects of our Constitution, it might be fair and reasonable to look at that part of the empire where such defects were worst, and to ask whether they had produced the worst results in the condition of the people. But what was the fact? If they looked to the moral and social condition of the people of Scotland, it would be found, that in their intelligence, their habits of industry, and in the general diffusion of comfort amongst them, they were the most favoured portion of the empire. Was it, then, upon speculative grounds alone that they were to abandon a system, under which the state of the people, the great and crowning object of all good government, had been brought about? They were, indeed, at first told that this measure would not change the Constitution; that it was only intended to restore it. In the late debates, that position had been very much avoided, if not abandoned; but it was left for the learned Lord Advocate of Scotland to throw off the mask, and boldly declare, that it was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers not to leave one single vestige of the system under which the country had most umdeniably attained to
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unexampled greatness and prosperity. He regretted that the learned Lord should have so vehemently attacked the system by which he had found his way into Parliament. But whatever might be the evils of the existing state of the Representation of Scotland, they were not very likely to be remedied by the measure of his Majesty's Ministers, who did not appear to have any other motive for bringing it forward, than that the people required it—a motive which seemed to be quite sufficient, without any reference to political exigency, Scotland, notwithstanding all that had been said, had her landed interest adequately and ably represented; but this Bill would utterly ruin the interests of the small landed proprietors, and throw them into a state of comparative vassalage. It would, no doubt, be desirable to prevent a strong line of demarcation from being drawn between the countries; still it was impossible, from the different nature of the property in both, to establish a precisely similar state of Representation in each; and the violent method proposed by Ministers was calculated not only to shut out persons having the necessary acquirements for the Representation, but to place the small resident proprietors of land as completely under the dominion of individuals as ever was the constituency of the boroughs in schedule A. Such a result would tend to diminish the interest which these proprietors felt in doing good to the community. He hoped the hon. and learned member for Kerry had considered the fact, that Scotland was subject to numerous evils whilst she enjoyed a local legislature under the dominion of the English Government, but that a new era of prosperity and happiness dawned upon her as soon as the legislatures of the two countries were united. There existed in Scotland, as there still existed in Ireland, a feeling of jealousy and hostility towards those who had been mainly instrumental in bringing about the Union; but this feeling soon died away, and when the Pretender landed in Scotland, he found so little appearance of a desire to repeal the Union on the part of the people of that country, that he erased from his proclamation a clause which referred to that measure. The prosperity of Scotland, from the Union up to the present moment, had progressively inceased, though it had made more rapid strides of late years, particularly since the conclusion of the American

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War. He was most anxious to adhere strictly to the recommendation of the Lord Advocate, to reserve all considerations on the details of the Bill until it got into Committee. At the same time, he knew it was extremely difficult to urge any thing in favour of the Scotch system of Representation on the minds of those who had always, until very lately considered the English Constitution as alone worthy of imitation. The English system of Representation, too, though so long admired, had been so much remodelled and altered by the Bill which had lately passed that House, that he could not expect that any arguments of his could induce the House to deal with the Representation of Scotland with a more unsparing hand. Although all corporate rights, however, were to be put an end to in England; and although he should admit the practicability and expediency of giving the right of voting to 10 l householders in all the boroughs in Scotland; yet he must contend, that the plan for the county Representation would not be beneficial to that country. Although it was pretended that it would give additional weight to the agricultural interest—and he admitted that there could not be a more intelligent, independent, and respectable class of persons, than those to whom it was proposed to give the right of voting for counties in Scotland—yet he doubted whether the tenantry or the landlords would be benefitted by the proposed extension of the franchise. He feared they would find, as was well observed by the hon. Baronet, the member for Hertfordshire (Sir John Sebright), with regard to the English county Representation, that there might, be conflicts between landlord and tenant as to the manner in which the franchise should be exercised, little productive of that harmony and good will which, he was bound to say, had hitherto subsisted between landlord and tenant in Scotland. He was glad to find, that the right hon. the President of the Board of Control (Mr. Charles Grant) had borne out his hon. friend behind him, who had denied the accuracy of the statement of the Lord Advocate that the minds of the lower orders in Scotland were alienated from their superiors. He (Sir George Clerk) had heard this assertion of the Lord Advocate with astonishment, for he believed no such feeling existed. The hon. Baronet (Sir George Warrender) had referred to the feeling in Scotland in
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favour of Reform. He admitted that the feeling prevailed to a great extent during the late general election, and it would have surprised him if that feeling had not existed, considering the great pains taken to excite it. He believed, however, that the feeling would subside as rapidly as it had grown up, and that the people of Scotland would soon return to that state of political feeling in which they had been for so many years past. He was of opinion, that as so great an alteration was proposed in the general system of Representation, a larger number of Representatives ought to be given to Scotland. His Majesty's Government it appeared, were induced to resist this proposition, for fear of creating jealousy in England; but if so reasonable a proposition was acceded to, it would be most gratefully received. If there was the slightest chance of any amelioration or alteration in the Bill, he might be induced to concur with those who said they were unwilling to vote against the second reading, because they thought the present system of Representation in Scotland did require some amendment. His Majesty's Government, however, gave no encouragement that they would assent to any amendments in the Bill; and the majorities on the English Bill proved how hopeless it was, to bring forward any case, however good, in a Committee, when his Majesty's Ministers had previously made up their minds on it. No person who knew anything of Scotland but must feel, that this measure completely destroyed the influence of the landed interest in the Representation, and threw all the power into the hands of the 10 l. householders and the village population. He would candidly admit, that he considered the Scotch system of Representation most useful as a part of the English system; and his chief objection to putting an end to that system was, that it would increase the democratic influence in the House of Commons, which, in his opinion, needed no increase. He was also of opinion, that the indirect influence which the Aristocracy exercised in that House was necessary to conduct the government of the country. The chief complaint against the Scotch system of Representation was, the paucity of the electors. He admitted, that they were few in number, but they were equal in fortune and rank to the Members of that House. The Scotch Representation,

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therefore, sent a strong phalanx to the conservative side of that House, not so likely to be led away by popular influence as the Members for English counties, who were dependent for their seats upon a more numerous constituency, and, in many cases, upon the manufacturing interests. The body of Scotch Representatives, he believed, was most useful in this point of view, as a check upon the increasing democratic influence. Under all the circumstances, he felt it impossible to give his assent to this measure. There was great distress in the manufacturing districts of Scotland, and the embarrassment of trade, and all the evils which the people endured, were now ascribed to the state of the Representation. He trusted, however, to the good sense of the people, that this prejudice would rapidly wear away. He admitted the feeling existed, but it could not induce him to give his assent to a measure which could afford no practical relief to the existing distress. Upon those grounds, he should oppose the second reading, and vote in favour of the motion to postpone the consideration of this Bill.
The Lord Advocatedisclaimed having said, or intended to say, that any general feeling of hostility existed in the mind of the lower classes in Scotland towards their superiors. What he had intended to convey (though doubtless he had done so imperfectly) was, that as public opinion in Scotland had no legitimate channel, in consequence of the state of the Representation, in case of any great excitement, a degree of hostility might exist in the minds of the lower orders towards those above them.
Sir James Mackintoshsaid, he did not rise for the unnecessary purpose of attempting to strengthen the arguments adduced by the Lord Advocate and his right hon. friend (Mr. Charles Grant), which needed no strengthening; but to vindicate himself from the suspicion of want of sensibility on a question involving the rights, character, interest, and honour of the people of Scotland. The hon. Baronet (Sir George Clerk) defended the Scotch system of Representation on the ground that the oligarchical phalanx which Scotland sent to that House, was a wholesome curb upon the mouth of English democracy. It was rather a mortifying argument, however, for a Scotchman to hear the Representatives of his country designated
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as a useful check upon the influence of popular opinion, acting on the English Members. A few minutes before the hon. Baronet concluded, he admitted that no people could be more safely trusted with the elective franchise than the people of Scotland, to whom it was about to be extended. When the hon. Baronet admitted this, he left himself no ground to stand upon. He admitted that no nation in the world could be more safely intrusted with popular privileges, and yet he voted against the second reading of a Bill which proposed to give some popular privileges. He was sorry no English Member had taken part in this discussion, for he should have liked to ask any English Gentleman one or two short intelligible questions. Could any Englishman call a government free in which there was not a shadow of popular election? and could an Englishman say any government could be good which was not free? It was admitted by all the opposers of the Bill, that the Representation of Scotland was not in a state of Utopian perfection; that there were some dark spots in its brightness; those consisted, however, in the total absence of that popular influence which was the life of every good system of Representation. It was truly said by the opponents of this Bill, that its supporters could not say, as they had done with regard to the English Bill, that it was a renewal and a renovation. England always possessed a freedom in its system of Representation, from the days of Simon De Montfort until the day before yesterday, when the Reform Bill passed, which was to give that principle a greater extent and greater vigour. In England it was very proper to talk of the Reform Bill as a restoration of ancient principles; but it was impossible, without an insulting mockery of the people of Scotland, to say, that the measure now under consideration restored rights they had never possessed, and renewed a Constitution which they never enjoyed. Such language would be nothing less than the most cruel irony. The hon. Baronet, on the other side of the House, lad referred to the pages of history, and lad made quotations from them in support of his view of this question of Reform. In many of the observations—the historical observations, if he might so call them, which he made, he perfectly concurred. It was only natural that the descendant of Sir John Clerk should have an accurate

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knowledge of the history of the Union of the two countries in which his ancestor took so distinguished a part. He thought, however, that he might adopt his historical Representations without any detriment to his own argument. For what was the question? whether the progress of Scotland, in all the arts of peace and war, had been owing to the state of its Representation, or to other causes. He would only take the historical statement of the right hon. Baronet, and upon it he would undertake to determine that question. From whatever period the history of Scotland was looked at, from the time of the Union of the Crowns to the Union of the kingdoms, it was found that it had had the same Parliamentary Constitution, and the same system of Representation it had up to the present day. Yet, under that Parliamentary Constitution, and that system of Representation, Scotland became the scene of bloodshed—the theatre of atrocious crime—of cruel religious and civil wars, and of every horror that could barbarize a nation. Let any man read the account of the state of Scotland at the end of the seventeenth century, given by him whose memory he held in the highest esteem—whom he ventured some time ago to call the last of Scotsmen—the last Scot of the old era, when Scotland was an independent nation. Let any man read the account of the state of Scotland in the last thirteen years of the seventeenth century, written with great purity and power of diction, by one who could command the pen as well as the tongue, and who could use both as boldly as he used the sword—let him read the history given by that great man; and let him say whether it did not lead him to conclude, that Scotland at that time was in a state of actual barbarism. Were they not correct, then, in ascribing the progress which Scotland had made, not to its Parliamentary Constitution, or to its Representative system, but to the union of its Parliament with that of England—to the intimate connexion thus formed between the two countries—to the ideas imbibed by the Scotch gentry, from their association with the gentry of England, and to the example of a free government, which they daily saw in the practice of that of England? The hon. Gentleman on the opposite side, seemed to attribute all the improvements which, within the last century, had taken place in the state of Scotland,
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to its Parliamentary Constitution, and yet he admitted that, under that very Constitution, from the time of Queen Mary down to the reign of Charles 2nd, and even to the period of the Union of the kingdoms, Scotland was the continued scene of rebellion and bloodshed, and of all the horrors of civil and religious wars, accompanied with every aggravation that absolute barbarism could afford. Surely, then, their mode of explaining the progress which Scotland had made in civilization, and in all the arts of peace—in commerce—in manufactures—in agriculture—in learning and science, was more reasonable than to ascribe it to a cause which, for a long period before, did not produce the same beneficial effect. They were told that the measure which was now proposed would enable the greater proprietors to acquire an influence in the Scotch counties which they did not now possess. And yet the hon. Gentleman who principally advanced this argument, told them, in the very next sentence, that his main objection to the Bill was, that he considered it to be too democratical. He did not know how he proposed to reconcile these two statements. For his part, he was only sorry that he did not agree with him, nor with the hon. member for Lanarkshire, in any of the arguments which they had advanced, except in this—that the flagitious freeholders in one county might be large landholders in another. That might be the case, but it was not as large landholders that they voted. They might be landholders, or they might be proprietors of other property, but as voters they were not necessarily so. He therefore contended, that the system of Representation in Scotland exhibited a double deformity, which it would be difficult to find in any other political institution, shewing, on the one hand, county Members and county voters, neither of them having any necessary connexion with the county to be represented; and, on the other hand, borough Members having no connexion with the people whom they did represent. In short, he could not conceive a greater political monster than that which existed and was called the system of Representation of Scotland. He conceived that that system had not any resemblance to the system by which the people of England were represented. Scotland was, undoubtedly, a country which had many excellent institutions. The doctrines of her Church were pure;

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her clergy were respectable and learned; her gentry were well educated, and, above all, her people were as moral, as industrious, and as intelligent, as any in the world. But what could be said of her system of Representation? The abuses, aye, the grossest abuses of the English Constitution, were Utopian perfections compared with the Representation of Scotland; a mode of Representation which did not only contain some abuses, but was in itself one enormous and hideous abuse; a mass of unmixed and unmitigated evil. He defied any man to shew that it bore the slightest resemblance to anything in the shape of a popular Representation. Undoubtedly, the existing system of Representation in Scotland had its conveniences as a means of patronage, particularly to the middle classes of the gentry. Scotland contained a class of gentry of high birth and great respectability, but whose hereditary fortunes were not very large. To them the existing system afforded the means of providing for their sons, by obtaining appointments for them in India, or in any of the British settlements. He had heard of a provident Scotch father, who was so strongly impressed with the desirableness of this sort of patronage, that he bought qualifications in five or six counties, in order to be able to provide for the whole of his family. Before he closed his observations, he begged to call to mind the appeal made to the justice of the House, by his right hon. friend on his right hand. How would the House answer the appeal of the people of Scotland for a share in that popular Representation which was now, and ever had been, the glory of England? The people of Scotland claimed a share in the advantages of such a system of Representation; the partial experience which they had had of it, by their union with this country, had sharpened their desire for it; they had seen it in the state in which it had been most disfigured by abuse, and most distorted by perversion from its proper purpose; yet they had seen it place the English nation among the highest in the scale of the nations of the world. Other countries had had monarchical and aristocratical forms of government, but no other nation in Europe, till within the last half-century, had made any attempt to obtain that most important part of the Constitution of England—a Representation of the people.
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Would they, he continued to address the English Members, belie the whole of their English experience, and say that a Representation of the people was unnecessary to good government? This they would be obliged to say, if they refused to extend the advantages of Representation to the people of Scotland. They must either say, that a popular system of Representation produces none of the benefits which he had stated, and which were commonly ascribed to it, or they must allow, that it was the Anti-reform system which had produced to Scotland the advantages which she had derived from the Union. If they rejected the measure, they would withhold from Scotland the right which they had given to the smallest of all their dependencies—which they had given to all the provinces of North America, and which a sense of justice would soon compel them to give to those of their possessions in the East, which were now claiming that benefit from their hands; they would give it to every dependency of the empire, and yet they would declare that the people of Scotland were unworthy of it.
Sir Robert Peeldid not rise to make any observation on the question before the House. His only object was, to set the right hon. Gentleman right with regard to what he had said on Wednesday night. On that occasion he contended, that a great addition would be made by the Bill to popular influence, and that some of the checks and controls would be removed. He pointed out Scotland as one of those checks, but he did not say whether it was a proper check or no; all he said was, that the proposed change would increase the popular influence. He would be the last person to say any thing humiliating to Scotland.
Mr. Stuart Wortleythought that the system of Representation in Scotland was wholly untenable, if the principles recognised in the Representation of other parts of the kingdom by the Ministerial measure of Reform were to be confirmed by the Legislature. That system could only be maintained by an unmitigated opposition to popular Representation in the United Kingdom. He would not oppose the Bill in the present stage, but to many parts of it he had great objections. It was difficult, indeed, to apply the English principle of Reform to the Representative system of Scotland. The manufacturing interest in

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Scotland stood upon a footing different from that of England. Prescriptive rights, which had been treated with so little ceremony in the English Reform Bill, were of the greatest importance in Scotland. If Reform was to be introduced into Scotland, it would be impossible to maintain the present system of county Representation; it must be changed. He would admit leaseholders to vote, and lower the value of superiorities. He did not wish then to go further into the details: he was only desirous of shewing that he had substantial reasons for not opposing the second reading of the Bill. By permitting the Bill to go into Committee, he did not pledge himself to support it at a future stage, for, if not greatly altered in Committee, he should feel bound to resist it to the utmost.
Sir George Murraywould take up as little time as possible in addressing the House on this subject, and would endeavour to follow the recommendation given by the learned Lord, not to enter into the examination of the details of the Bill further than it might be impossible to avoid. His objections to the general Bill, of which that now before them formed a part, had been all along chiefly directed against its principles, and they were so so strong as to leave him no alternative but that of opposing its second reading. He should, as shortly as he could, state his reasons for doing so. If he felt greatly interested in the Bill which had been lately under their consideration, for altering the system of Representation in England and Wales, he must naturally feel much more interested in the Bill before the House, which was to make a complete and a sudden change in the system of election and the constituent body, which had, up to this time, existed in his native country. He felt that he should be under the necessity of referring to the English Bill in the course of the observations with which he should trouble the House; for the whole question of Reform by means of these Bills, was so intimately combined together, that it was not possible to make allusions to one part without introducing matters connected with the others. It appeared to him, that if the Bill for England were dangerous, in consequence of the great changes which it would introduce into the Constitution, the extending of similar, or even greater alterations, into another part of the United Kingdom, could only increase the danger which was to be
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apprehended. He had before stated, that he should abstain at present from going into details—another, and more convenient opportunity would occur for doing so; but his objections to the principle of the measure were strong and decisive, and this was the period of the discussion when it was proper to make objections of that nature. He never was an enemy to all Reform; and he had, upon every occasion, been ready to admit of the expediency of some modifications in the Scotch system of Representation; but he objected to the utter abandonment of the principle of Representation which had ever existed in that country, and under which the people of Scotland were enjoying so much liberty, and had attained their present high degree of prosperity. It was truly said of the English Bill, that it occasioned great changes in the ancient institutions of the country; but the Scotch Bill went far beyond that, as it completely overturned and destroyed the system of Representation which had existed in that portion of the empire both before and subsequent to the Union. It had been said, that Scotland had never had an independent Representation, and that this had arisen from the body of the people of Scotland having had no direct share in the election of the Members returned from the counties and burghs of that portion of the United Kingdom. He could not concur in this doctrine; for he thought that the real interests of the people of Scotland had been most ably represented, and he considered, that nothing could be more independent than the system of Representation in the larger Scotch counties. He felt himself perfectly independent—as much so as any Member in that House—as the Representative for a Scotch county, and much more so, perhaps, than he could expect to be if this Bill should be brought into operation. It was contended that there were no Representatives for the Scotch counties, because the large mass of the people had no share in the election; and bethought the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, also said, that there was this objection to the system of Representation in Scotland, that the Members from that part of the kingdom were not sent to this House by a numerous constituency. But what sort of a constituency was it intended to form by this Bill? It was proposed to create a large constituency by conferring the franchise on all the 10 l.

567
householders in the towns which had not a share in the burgh Representation; and, as a sort of balance, to prevent the too great preponderance of the town interests, it was intended to confer the franchise also on the farmers. By this means, an attempt was made to equalize as much as possible the different interests; but it was obvious that this was to create a numerous constituency of one kind of voters, and then to neutralize their power by creating a numerous constituency of an opposite description. How did this system of Representation work in the English counties, where there was a numerous constituency? The noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said, in allusion to an objection that was started by some hon. Gentleman, as to giving three Members to a county—that he was perfectly well acquainted with the arrangement, by which the two Members for that county had heretofore been returned, and that he believed he could make a pretty accurate guess at the arrangement which would be made for the election of the three Representatives who would be allowed by the Bill. Now, this was a distinct admission that the return of the Members for the English counties, even under this Reform Bill—the ostensible object of which was to destroy nomination—would be under the direct influence of two or three of the great families in a county; and that the large constituencies which were to be such a boon to the people of Scotland, were, in the English counties, to a great degree under the control of an oligarchy. He could not think, that the Representation in Scotland would be benefitted by a system which would supersede the present independent electors for the. purpose of introducing such a system of control as had been described by the noble Lord. The Scotch Members were not now returned by an oligarchy; but he feared that this Bill would lead to the exercise of a species of control over the proposed electors, of a nature that would destroy that kindly feeling that at present existed, and indeed had ever existed, in Scotland, between the landlord and tenant, and, generally, amongst all ranks and classes of society. At present the Representatives from Scotland were truly independent; for on the one hand they were not called upon to court, by popular arts, a numerous constituency, nor, on the other, were they the nominees of noble families, In the
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county which he had the honour to represent, there were several resident families of the highest distinction, but none of them exercised a direct control over the return of the Member. He had had the honour of the support of all these families, many of whom had been connected with the county of Perth as far back as the records of history extended. At present none of these families possessed an overwhelming influence, and certainly he should not think it desirable that any one or two great families in the county should be able to influence the return of the Member, to such a degree as to destroy the independence of the country gentlemen possessing less extensive properties, and it was obviously an objectionable part of the proposed Bill, that it was calculated to throw too great an influence into the hands of the principal families. With regard to the influence of the Scotch Representatives in that House, it was a most salutary one. He had uniformly looked at these Bills with reference to the change they would effect in the general character of the House of Commons. There must always be in that House, from the very nature of the constituency which elected them, a number of Members who must constantly be the advocates of popular rights, and whose endeavour it would be to extend democratic principles. It was, therefore, necessary to have in the House of Commons a proportion of Members also, who, from the mode of their election, would be the supporters of other principles; and having lessened that number in England by the English Bill, it would be inexpedient, and even dangerous, to disturb, at the same time, the Scotch system of Representation, the general tendency of which was, to resist the excess of democratic influence. If all the Members in that House were returned by democratic influence, and by numerous constituencies, the most dangerous result would follow, and there would soon be an end of many of the most admirable institutions. But what were the reasons assigned for the mighty change proposed by the Bill? What were the motives which had induced Ministers to bring forward this measure? It was stated that the people demanded it. He should be very desirous of gratifying the demands of the people, if it could be safely done, but it must be remembered, that the demands which were

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now made, did not originate with the people themselves, but that the grounds upon which the people proceeded were suggested to them by the originators of this Bill. But, believing, as he did, that it was not safe for the people to make such extensive and untried changes in our institutions, he could not consent to yield to the popular judgment on this question. He considered the demand of the people as injurious to their best interests, and, therefore, could not consent to give way, and abandon his opposition to the Bill. With reference to Scotland, the people there had been excited by the Bill, and the demands for such changes as it proposed to make in that portion of the empire, did not become urgent until the Bill was brought forward. The right hon. Baronet, the member for Honiton, said, that the Bill had been a firebrand in the country. He agreed with him—it resembled the fiery cross which, according to a Scottish poet, used in former times to be sent from house to house, and from village to village in Scotland, to rouse the people to arms. Such was the manner in which this Bill was made use of to stir up the multitude. The noble Lord and Gentlemen opposite had often told the House, that the only way to allay the excitement produced by the advocates of this Bill, was to make concession; but he could allow no such unsafe conclusion to be come to, when the permanent interests of the country were at stake. The proposal indeed reminded him of an expression in the same poet to which he had just alluded; where, with reference to another passion, he said:—
"Go fetter flame with flaxen band,
And stop the stream with moving sand."
A similar result would be the consequence of an attempt to satisfy the popular demands; and, by endeavouring to allay by extravagant concessions, the excitement raised by this Bill. Allusions had been made to the probable fate of the Reform Bill in the other House: they had no right to anticipate what the House of Lords would do on this subject; and still less had they a right to represent to the people, that it was a question in which the Sovereign felt personally interested. The King's name had been most improperly used, and this had tended much to the excitement of the people. They had no right to anticipate what might be the King's decision upon the Bill, nor could
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they, constitutionally, have any knowledge of his Majesty's sentiments upon it, until it had been submitted to him after having passed the other two branches of the Legislature. He should feel very great anxiety for any Sovereign who placed his whole reliance on the popular voice, and who was induced, in consequence of excitement, to yield to popular demands. It had been most industriously circulated in Scotland, that the King was desirous that this Bill should pass, and an alliance had been represented to have been formed in the King's name between monarchy and democracy. This opinion had been greatly strengthened by expressions similar to one which he recollected to have heard used in that House during the last Parliament—that this was the cause of the King and the people against the Aristocracy. He could not conceive anything more dangerous to the continuance of a monarchical form of Government, than an alliance of this nature. He could only conceive two alternatives under which such an alliance could be made, and neither of these alternatives existed in this country. The one alternative was, where a Prince was so weak as to allow himself to be made the instrument of a popular faction. Several cases were mentioned in history, which pointed out the danger to the State of an alliance between monarchy and democracy under such circumstances. The fate of Louis 16th ought to serve as a warning against such a step. That Prince placed all his power in the hands of M. Neckar, who endeavoured to carry on the government by making concessions in every instance to popular clamour, and the most fatal consequences ensued, both for the king and for the people. The other alternative was, when a sovereign, carried away by ambition, and reckless of consequences, sought for the attainment of arbitrary power in a way in which it had often been obtained before, namely, by employing democracy to overturn all other authorities in the State, trusting to being able, when that had been effected, to spurn the ladder by which he had ascended, and to trample upon the necks of the people; and a more sure way could not be devised of destroying the rights and liberties of the people, than by commencing by the destruction of the Aristocracy. This was not a new opinion in the world, for, on referring to the historian of Rome, they found that such was

571
the advice that one of the Tarquins gave to his son, as to the mode in which he should obtain absolute power in a neighbouring city in which he had ingratiated himself with the citizens. He told him to destroy the Aristocracy, and then he would not be long before he would be able to triumph over the liberties of the people. It was of the utmost consequence to the preservation of the liberties of the people, that an intermediate body should exist between them and the Throne, which should have an interest in maintaining the rights of both, and thus preserve the balance between monarchy and democracy. He earnestly deprecated, therefore, the attempt that had been made to induce a belief that the King and the people were to be united against the Aristocracy; than such an impression, nothing could be more injurious to the Sovereign, or more prejudicial to the best interests of the people themselves. As reference had repeatedly been made to the French Revolution in the course of these discussions on the Reform Bill, he would once more allude to the case of Louis 16th and his minister, M. Neckar. They had been told to call to mind what the nobles of France lost by their resistance to the popular voice, although their losses could, with more historical accuracy, have been imputed to concession. But a question might be asked, of much more importance, with reference to the present discussions. What did the people of France gain?—for the important question was not, what can others lose—but what are the people to gain by the proposed changes? What had the people of France gained by the alteration which they had made in their constitution, and by the entire subversion of their ancient institutions? were they now nearer the promised land of liberty than when they commenced their journey in search of it forty years ago? No— after all their wanderings, sufferings, disgraces, and disasters, they were, perhaps, not now nearer to the enjoyment of real liberty and happiness, and the possession of a permanent and free Constitution, than they were at the outset of their attempt. The leaders of the French Revolution acted upon the principle of destroying the ancient institutions, and of overturning the social edifices that had existed for generations. The learned Lord now admitted that he was desirous of proceeding
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on a similar principle, notwithstanding he had this striking example of the failure of such a course when pursued in France. The learned Lord said, that he would not have one rag or shred existing in Scotland of its old system of Representation—not one stone standing upon another of the former edifice. He had not the least doubt that many of the leaders in the French Revolution were actuated by the most honest intentions, and the most benevolent motives, in the cause they adopted, but how wofully they failed in all of them— They were desirous of forming a Constitution on theoretical views of ideal perfection, and for this they abandoned those courses which history and experience had pointed out as the best that could be followed. Indeed, this seemed to be the error of all political Reformers; they looked not to practical good through experience, but to theoretical good through speculation. England and Scotland had known unexampled prosperity, because they had adhered to the guidance of experience, whilst their neighbours had trusted to their own speculative opinions, and to the untried conclusions of their own judgment. It was to their unequalled Constitution that the English were indebted for all the benefits they enjoyed. He did not look to what might be called the theory of the Constitution, but to its practical operation. The Reformers who supported these Bills went upon the opposite principle—and because the present constitution of that House did not correspond in all its features with the theory of Representation, it must be altered. What was it that made all nations regard the British Constitution with envy? It was undoubtedly the practical efficiency which it had hitherto shewn in cherishing all the various interests of the community, and which had tended so much, not only to the maintenance of the great principle of the security of property, combined with general freedom, but also to the increase of the wealth and industry of the people, and the power and greatness of the State. But this did not satisfy speculative politicians—they did not look at that which had produced all these benefits, but at the picture which had been drawn of it by those who had sought to pourtray it; and in place of doubting the exact accuracy of those sketches, they wanted to force an alteration of the

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features of the original to make them correspond with those of the picture. The learned Lord admitted fully, that the wealth and industry of the people of Scotland had greatly increased during the last century—and every one, indeed, who had any knowledge of Scotland must admit, that during these last fifty years it had exhibited, not a sudden and precarious, but a radical and regularly-progressive course of improvement, unexampled, perhaps, in any other country, and which it must afford the highest gratification to all who were connected with it to contemplate. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (the President of the Board of Control) had, with his accustomed eloquence, drawn a beautiful picture of the present condition of his native country. He had admitted all that he (Sir George Murray) had said of her general prosperity, and he had dwelt with peculiar satisfaction upon her learning, and that sympathy which so happily existed there amongst all ranks and classes of society. Yet hon. Gentlemen were willing, and even anxiously desirous, that the continuation of all this should be put in jeopardy, for the sake of a speculative experiment of the most doubtful success— They argued, that the country had advanced to prosperity in this extraordinary manner, and in civilization and every kind of improvement, in spite of the badness of its political system—but their reasoning on this head was much too paradoxical for him to assent to, or to comprehend. He admitted that there were blemishes in the Representative system of Scotland, but they were not such as might not be easily removed; and he could not think that the defects in their system called for so rash, so sudden, and so fatal a change as was proposed to be effected by the present Bill. He was not opposed to a gradual and well-digested modification, but decidedly inimical to such destructive innovations as the present. He should like to have it pointed out to him more clearly than had hitherto been done, that the people would gain by this change; and that the mass of the population of the country would derive great, and essential, and permanent advantages from it. This he asked as a Representative of the people. It had been said, that the proposed measure of Reform, brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers, would protect the people against the recurrence of expensive
574
wars; but, before he could admit this, it was necessary to prove to him that democracy was not prone to war. Let the House look at France—which was the war party in that country? The government there was sincerely desirous of peace, but the democracy would not hear of peace; and it was with the utmost difficulty that the government, could maintain itself against that party. The king of the French was compelled to boast, in his opening speech to the Chambers, of having sent a plundering expedition to Lisbon, that he might conciliate the democracy, and gratify the popular love of vain glory. And since then, a minister had lost the favour of the democracy, and had actually resigned his office, he was reinstated in the popular favour and replaced in office, by the mere announcement of the march of a French army into Belgium. The Government of this country was perfectly aware that the French ministry had been obliged to court popularity by feeding the appetite of the people for military exploits; and had even acquiesced, in some degree, in that line of conduct, rather than allow the tottering government of France to be overthrown, and France, and all Europe, perhaps, to be plunged by that event into the miseries of war. Let it not be said, then, that democracy was friendly to peace. He did not condemn the people. Even at the moment when a multitude was guilty of the greatest and most criminal excesses, they acted under the momentary delusion that they were doing what was right; but they did what was wrong, because they fell into the hands of artful, selfish, cruel, and often cowardly demagogues. An hon. friend of his (the member for Kirkaldy) had said, that all that Scotland required was, the alteration of the present mode of election, and, if that were altered, that forty-five Members would be sufficient. He must protest against that doctrine. If Scotland was to have this measure of Reform, she should have its advantages, as well as its defects. If the principle of giving Representation on the ground of population was to be applied, either with reference to the general population of the kingdom, or to English and Welsh counties and boroughs separately, Scotland had a just claim to benefit by the application of the same principle. This was, indeed, one of those principles which, together with some others which he should

575
not stop now to criticize, must render it impossible that the present measure of Reform could be a final measure; but he could not consent that the large Scotch counties should have but one Representative, although some of them had a greater population than counties in England and Wales, to which three Members had been given by the English Bill; nor could he consent that large towns and cities in Scotland should be unrepresented, whilst places in England with 2,000 inhabitants had one Member, and those with 4,000 inhabitants retained two Representatives. He could not avoid remarking, that the nature of the votes in Scotch counties, called superiorities, was liable to be very greatly mistaken. These votes had been called "paper votes," from which Gentlemen unacquainted with Scotland might be led to suppose, that they could be created at pleasure, and to any amount; but that was not the case, for each of those voters must represent, and be connected with a certain extent of landed property. These voters were, in many instances, the representatives of that influence which the noble Lord opposite had called the "legitimate influence of property." That legitimate influence of property, however, which the noble Lord was willing to preserve, would be in a very precarious state, even in England, after the passing of the Reform measure; for it bore too near a resemblance to nomination, to allow it to escape the improvement of future Reformers. But the noble Lord might, perhaps, say, how could the influence of property be destroyed, unless property itself be destroyed? But future Reformers would find an easy remedy, and, by doing away with the law of primogeniture, they would at once remove that influence of property which, according to them, would be an evil too much akin to nomination, to be allowed to remain. The noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had admitted, not long since, in that House, that he had been a party-man all his life. He did not blame the noble Lord for it; and he must say, that there had been no improper indication of party-feeling evinced by the noble Lord throughout the whole of the discussion on the measure. The noble Lord had conducted himself with the greatest good-temper, and the greatest fairness, in all these discussions, and had discharged the task he had undertaken in a most becoming manner,
576
and with unremitting diligence and attention. He respected, also, the private character of the noble Lord who was at the head of his Majesty's Ministers. He acknowledged and admired his abilities. But he sincerely lamented that those noble Lords and their colleagues had been led away by principles which would draw them along with a gradually-increasing power, like that of a whirlpool, against which no strength could successfully struggle, until they were carried, at last, to the shipwreck, both of themselves and of their country.
Lord Althorpdid not think that he was called upon to discuss the general question of Reform on that occasion, though the greater part of the speech of the right hon. Baronet related to that. In his opinion, the question before the House was, whether, having applied the principle of Reform to England and Wales, it would be judicious to extend that principle to Scotland,; and he must say, that it appeared to him a monstrous proposition, that Reform having commenced, it should not be extended to Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman had admitted that there were blemishes in the Representation of Scotland; but he should say, that there was but one blemish, and that it was such a one as to cover and blot the whole system. It was also said, that the call for Reform in Scotland had only arisen in consequence of the introduction of the Reform Bill: but the hon. member for Dumfries had truly stated, that the desire for Reform in Scotland had been gradually growing stronger and stronger every day for a considerable period of time. But, it was said, that Scotland was in a very flourishing state without a Representation; and upon that it was asked, why should Representatives be given to it? But that appeared to him to be no argument at all on the question of Representation; for, no doubt, it had happened before, in the history of the world, that countries unrepresented had arisen to a high pitch of prosperity. The manner in which the right hon. Gentleman had argued for an increase of Members for Scotland, appeared to him to be a little inconsistent with the apprehension which the right hon. Gentleman expressed as to the democratic principle of the Bill. There was one point, however, in which he fully concurred with the right hon. Gentleman, which was, that the influence of property ought never to cease to exist as long as

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the property itself existed; but, at the same time he must contend, that the very principle of this Bill was, to give due weight to the influence of property. The best proof of the necessity of Reform was the general discontent that had been evinced by the people all through the empire; which appeared to him to be a practical illustration of the necessity of Reform and improvement; and it was the desire to effect that improvement which had induced his Majesty's Ministers to bring forward these Bills.
Mr. Huntsaid, he should not have risen were it not for the observation of the learned Lord, that the excitement and the desire for Reform were great in Scotland. He did not say, that they were in favour of this Bill. The learned Lord said, he did not mean the Radicals and the rabble. He would ask the learned Lord, whether, at the last election, he did not find the Radicals and the rabble very convenient allies? The walls of the House often resounded with the praises of their system of Representation, the envy and admiration of surrounding nations. What would become of the envy of surrounding nations when the last rag, the last shred of the Scotch Representation was taken away?
Mr. Cresset Pelhamopposed the Motion. He thought it would have been more convenient if this Bill proceeded pari passu with the other. It was every way as objectionable as the other.
The House then divided on the original Motion:—Ayes 209; Noes 96—Majority 113.
The Bill read a second time, and the question being put that it be committed for Monday,
Sir Charles Forbessaid, the speech of the learned Lord was the most Radical speech he had ever heard. The learned Lord had done more that night for the destruction of the happiness of the country than he had done by the whole of that publication which had been under his direction. He proposed to destroy the whole of the Representative system of Scotland, and not to leave one stone standing upon another. This Bill was not so fully discussed as the importance of it required.
The Bill ordered to be committed for Monday.

List of the AYES.

Adam, Admiral C.

Baillie, J. E.

Agnew, Sir A.

Bainbridge, E. T.

Althorp, Viscount

Baring, F. T.

578

Bayntun, Captain

Harcourt, G. V.

Benett, J.

Hawkins, J. H.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Heron, Sir R.

Bernal, R.

Heywood, R.

Blake, Sir F.

Hobhouse, J. C.

Blamire, W.

Hodges, T. L.

Blount, E.

Hodgson, J.

Bouverie, Hon. D. P.

Horne, Sir W.

Briscoe, J. I.

Hoskins, K.

Brougham, W.

Howard, P. H.

Brougham, J.

Howick, Viscount

Buller, J. W.

Hughes, W. H.

Bulwer, H. L.

Hume, J.

Bunbury, Sir H. E.

Hunt, H.

Blackney, W.

Ingilby, Sir W. A.

Bourke, Sir J.

James, W.

Brown, J. D.

Jeffrey, Right Hon. F.

Byng, G.

Jephson, C.D. O.

Calvert, N.

Johnston, A.

Campbell, W. F.

Johnston, J.

Campbell, J.

Johnstone, J. J. H.

Carter, J. B.

Jones, J.

Cavendish, C. C.

King, E. B.

Cavendish, H. F. C.

Knight, R.

Chaytor, W. R. C.

Knox, Hon. Colonel

Crampton, P. C.

Lamb, Hon. G.

Chichester, J. B.

Lambert, H.

Chichester, Sir A P.

Langston, J. H.

Clifford, Sir A.

Lawley, F.

Clive, E. B.

Leader, N. P.

Colborne, N. W. R.

Lee, J. L.

Cradock, Colonel

Lefevre, C. S.

Creevey, T.

Leigh, T. C.

Currie, J.

Lemon, Sir C.

Curteis, H. B.

Lennard, T. B.

Denman, Sir T.

Lennox, Lord J. G.

Dixon, J.

Lennox, Lord A.

Don, O'Conor

Loch, J.

Douglas, W. K.

Lumley, J S.

Dundas, Hon. Sir R. L.

Maberly, Colonel

Dundas, Hon. J. C.

Maberly, J.

Dundas, T.

Macaulay, T. B.

Ebrington, Viscount

Macdonald, Sir J.

Ellice, E.

Mackenzie, Sir J.

Etwall, R.

Mackintosh, Sir J.

Evans, Col. De Lacy

Macnamara, W.

Evans, W.

M'Leod, R.

Ewart, W.

Mangles, J.

Ferguson, R.

Milbank, M.

Fergusson, R. C.

Mills, J.

Fitzgibbon, Hon. R.

Moreton, Hon. H.

Foley, J. H. H.

Morpeth, Viscount

Folkes, Sir W.

Mostyn, E. M. L.

Fordwich, Lord

Mullins, F.

Foster, J.

Musgrave, Sir R.

French, A.

North, F.

Gillon, W. D.

Norton, C. F.

Gisborne, T.

Nowell, A.

Godson, R.

Nugent, Lord

Gordon, R.

O'Connell, M.

Graham, Sir J. R. G.

Ossory, Earl of

Graham, Sir S.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Grant, Right Hon. R.

Owen, Sir J.

Grant, Right Hon. C.

Paget, T.

Grattan, H.

Palmer, C. F.

Grattan, J.

Parnell, Sir H.

Handley, W. F.

Payne, Sir P.

579

Palmerston, Viscount

Stuart, Lord J.

Pendarves, E. W.

Stuart, Lord D. C.

Penlease, J. S.

Stewart, Sir M. S.

Petit, L. H.

Tennyson, C.

Petre, Hon. E.

Thicknesse, R.

Philipps, Sir R.

Thompson, Ald.

Ponsonby, Hon. W.

Thomson, Rt. Hon. C.

Ponsonby, Hon. G.

Throckmorton, R. G.

Power, R.

Tomes, J.

Poyntz, W. S.

Torrens, Colonel

Price, Sir R.

Traill, G.

Protheroe, E.

Tyrell, C.

Pryse, P.

Vere, J. J. H.

Ross, H.

Vernon, Hon. G. J.

Ruthven, E. S.

Villiers, T. H.

Ramsbottom, J.

Walker, C. A.

Ramsden, J. C.

Warburton, H.

Rickford, W.

Warrender, Sir G.

Robinson, Sir G.

Waterpark, Lord

Robinson, G. R.

Watson, Hon. R.

Rooper, J. B.

Webb, Colonel

Russell, Lord J.

Westenra, Hon. H.

Russell, R. G.

Weyland, J.

Sanford, E. A.

Weyland, Major

Scott, Sir E. D.

White, S.

Sebright, Sir J.

Whitmore, W. W.

Skipwith, Sir G.

Wilbraham, G.

Smith, J.

Wilde, T.

Smith, J. A.

Williams, J.

Smith, R. V.

Williams, W. A.

Smith, G. R.

Williams, Sir J. H.

Smith, M. T.

Williamson, Sir H.

Stanhope, Captain

Willoughby, Sir H.

Stanley, E. J.

Wood, Ald.

Stanley, Rt. Hon. E. G.

Wood, J.

Stanley, Lord

Wood, C.

Stephenson. H. F.

Wortley, Hon. J. S.

Stewart, P. M.

Wyse, T.

Strickland, G.

TELLER.

Strutt, E.

Kennedy, T. F.

List of the NOES.

A'Court, E. H.

Dering, Sir E. C.

Alexander, James

Domville, Sir C.

Arbuthnot, Col. C. G. J.

Douro, Marquis

Arbuthnot, Hon. Gen.

Dundas, R. A.

Balfour, J.

Encombe, Viscount

Bankes, W. J.

Fane, Hon. H. S.

Bankes, G.

Ferrand, W.

Beresford, Colonel M.

Forbes, Sir C.

Blair, W.

Forrester, Hn. G. C. W.

Boldero, H. G

Fox, S. L.

Brudenell, Lord

Freshfield, J. W.

Bruce, C. C. L.

Gordon, Colonel J.

Brydges, Sir J.

Gordon, J. E.

Buller, Sir A.

Gordon, Hon. Capt. W.

Burge, W.

Goulburn, Rt. Hon. H.

Burrard, G.

Graham, Marquis

Cole, Lord

Graham, Lord M. W.

Cole, Hon. A.

Grant, General Sir C.

Conolly, Colonel

Grant, Hon. Col. F. W.

Cooper, E. J.

Handcock, R.

Corry, Hon. H. L.

Hardinge, Sir H.

Courtenay, Rt. Hon. T.

Hay, Sir J.

Cumming, Sir W. G.

Hayes, Sir E.

Cust, Hon. Colonel E.

Herries, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Davidson, D.

Holmes, W.

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Hope, J. T.

Porchester, Lord

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Praed, W. M.

Ingestrie, Viscount

Pringle, A.

Jenkins, R.

Pringle, Sir W. H.

Knight, J. L.

Pusey, P.

Lefroy, Dr. T.

Rae, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Lefroy, A.

Ramsey, W.

Legh, Colonel T.

Rochfort, Colonel G.

Lindsay, Colonel J.

Rose, Rt. Hon. Sir G. H.

Lowther, Hon. H. C.

Rose, Captain P.

Lowther, J. H.

Scott, H. F.

Maitland, Viscount

Severn, J. C.

Maitland, Hon. A.

Sibthorp, Colonel

Malcolm, Sir J.

Somerset, Lord G.

Maxwell, H.

Stewart, Sir H.

Meynell, Captain H.

Stormont, Viscount

Miles, W.

Tullamore, Lord

Miller, W. H.

Taylor, G. W.

Murray, Rt. Hon. Sir G.

Ure, M.

Neeld, J.

Villiers, Viscount

Peach, N.

Walsh, Sir J. B.

Pearse, J.

Wrangham, D. C.

Peel, Rt. Hon. Sir R.

Young, J.

Perceval, Colonel

Pelham, J. C.

TELLERS.

Pemberton, T.

Clerk, Sir G.

Pollington, Lord

Douglas, Hon. C.

REGISTRY OF ARMS (IRELAND).
Mr. Stanleyhad stated last night, his intention, in consequence of the advanced period of the Session, and the absolute necessity of asking for some Bill on the subject, to move for the discharge of the Order for the adjourned debate on the Importation of Arms, and the Keeping of Arms in Ireland Bill, with a view of bringing in another Bill to revive for one year, the Acts 47th and 50th George 3rd, which had been in force for many years, but which had now expired. He should, therefore, move, that the Order of the Day be discharged, that the expiring Bills might be revived for twelve months.
Sir Robert Peelwas gratified to hear of the approaching termination of the Session; but at the same time, he could hardly admit it as a proper ground, or a proper excuse for withdrawing the two important Bills relating to Ireland, which the right hon. Gentleman, in the course of the Session, had introduced. Even supposing that their labours for the Session were about to close, surely there were still the same facilities for discussing these measures in September, as there would have been in May or June. He certainly should have thought that upon such a subject, no measure would have been introduced which, was not necessary; but to propose measures of extreme severity, and then to withdraw them without discussion, for the only reason that the Session was too far advanced,

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appeared to him to be both inconvenient and improper.
Mr. Stanleywas obliged to the right hon. Baronet for the lesson which he had read to him. He had brought forward the measures upon the subject of the importation of arms, and the keeping of them in Ireland, under the full conviction that some fresh regulations upon those subjects were absolutely necessary; and he conceived, that whatever course with respect to these Statutes might hereafter be adopted, it would, at all events, be advisable to make some such amendments as should render them more effective. Almost the only Amendment that he proposed, was a clause providing that the arms which were now required to be registered, should also, at the time of registration, be marked, so as to enable them to be more easily traced. There certainly were other alterations; but they were not of so pressing a nature as imperatively to demand that he should carry them through in this Session of Parliament. The Bill to which he had alluded expired next Session; and it was desirable, that before that time arrived, there should be some law in its place. The right hon. Baronet had been pleased to assume that he made some allusions to a probable prorogation. He never had said anything to warrant him in this assumption. He said that the lateness of the period prevented him from bringing the subject forward as he intended, but he did not say one word respecting the probable termination of the Session. He intended to proceed in the course that he had stated, and it was absolutely necessary that there should be as little delay as possible in doing so. It was necessary that a Bill of Indemnity should pass in as short a time as possible, as otherwise the Magistrates of Galway, Mayo, and Clare, would be exposed to the risk of proceedings being instituted against them for steps which they had taken, and which mainly contributed to the preservation of the peace of that part of Ireland. The course that he had adopted did not deserve the language applied to it by the right hon. Baronet, and it was not true that he had brought forward a measure without consideration, and then abandoned it without regret.
Sir Robert Peeldid not say a word about the consistency of the right hon. Gentleman, and therefore his observations on that point were ill-timed and uncalled
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for. The right hon. Gentleman said, a few weeks ago, that he brought forward a Bill which he submitted to the House for the registration of arms, as he considered that such a measure was absolutely necessary to the preservation of the peace in Ireland, and to the maintenance of the just authority of the Crown. This Bill was of unusual severity, and imposed the punishment of transportation for merely possessing arms that had not been registered. Before this Bill was brought forward it ought to have been well considered; and if this had been done, it ought not to have been abandoned in the manner in which it was by the right hon. Member. According to his understanding of common terms, the expression—the late period of the Session—implied the termination of it. He did not charge the right hon. Member with inconsistency, in having brought forward a Bill and abandoning it; but his conduct appeared to him (Sir R. Peel) to be liable to the charge of having acted with some degree of levity on the subject.
Mr. Stanleysaid, it would be in the recollection of the House, that when he brought forward that Bill, he stated that it was a modification of the laws which had formerly existed on the subject. When the penalty that he proposed should be inflicted, was compared with those which were imposed under former Governments for offences of the same character, his measure would be found comparatively mild. His Majesty's Government thought it inexpedient to resort to unconstitutional measures which had formerly been brought into operation; it was, therefore, considered proper that some step should be taken with respect to the registration of arms. He never proposed that punishment to the extent of transportation for life should be inflicted by a bench of Magistrates without the intervention of a Jury. He admitted, that he withdrew the measure submitted to the House in consequence of the decided opposition to his Motion of those hon. Members to whose opinions he was in the habit of looking with deference and respect. He did not now state for the first time that he did not press the Bill for the reasons now given; he said, that the opposition of those most zealous in the support of the Government had been the reason that induced him to abandon a measure, which he had only proposed should be

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operative in particular seasons of difficulty and disturbance. He trusted that his conduct, since he had the honour of holding his present office, had sufficiently shewn that he had no desire to exercise any great degree of severity, or to bring into operation any new law. If, for the conduct which he had pursued, he was deserving of the imputation of levity of conduct, which the right hon. Baronet had charged him with, he must bear it patiently.
Mr. Henry Grattansaid, that so far from the right hon. Gentleman deserving blame for the course he had now pursued, every credit should be bestowed upon him for his conduct.
Order of the Day discharged.

MINUTES.
[The Select Committee to whom it had been referred to consider what alterations should be made in the interior of the House during the debate on the Reform Bill, recommended that an Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give directions, that Galleries should be erected in the House in the same manner as had been adopted in the year 1820.—Ordered.]
Bill, Read a second time; Administration of Justice (Ireland.)
Petitions presented. By the Earl of CAMPERDOWN, from the Overseers and others connected with the Spinning Mills of Dundee, for the limitation of the hours of working in Manufactories in that part of the Kingdom. By the Marquis of WESTMINSTER, from certain Beer-housekeepers, for placing them on the same footing as Publicans. By Lord SUFFIELD, from the County of Norfolk, in favour of the Reform Bill. By the Duke of RICHMOND, to the same effect from the Inhabitants of Castle Douglas and its vicinity. By a NOBLE LORD, from the Inhabitants of Louth, Lincoln, praying that the condition of the Irish Peasantry might be taken into consideration.

COAL TRADE.
Lord Ellenborough Lord Ellenborough moved, that the London Coal Trade Regulation Bill be read a second time.
The Marquis of Londonderrycongratulated their Lordships on the advantages the country was about to derive from this measure, which embodied many of the suggestions he had so frequently ventured to offer to the House. He would take this opportunity of adverting to the statements which had been made, denying that the repeal of the coal duty had been followed by any adequate reduction of the price. He admitted that the full advantage of the measure had not yet been reaped, either by the coal-owner or the public, but had been in a great degree engrossed by the ship-owners. Competition could not fail, however, soon to correct this evil. The coal-owners had no such monopoly as could enable them to obtain an inordinate

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profit, and the reduction of duty, so far from giving them any undue advantage, would attract new capital to the opening of fields of coal, give a greater development to the trade, and render combinations difficult and ineffectual.
The Bill was read a second time.

GAME BILL.
On the Motion of the Duke of Richmond, the Order of the Day for the recommitment of this Bill was read.
Lord Wharncliffesuggested to the noble Duke the expediency of referring the Bill to a Committee up-stairs. The Bill, as it now stood, was full of imperfections. And he recommended this course with a perfect desire to make the Bill, if possible, a satisfactory Bill, and capable of working well in practice. He believed, that instead of losing time by referring the measure to a Select Committee, a great deal of time would be gained.
The Duke of Richmondwould have been disposed to resist the proposal had it proceeded from almost any other quarter; but, knowing that the noble Lord had long been anxious to promote that improvement in the laws which was the object of the Bill, he would accede to his suggestion.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that the Bill, in its present shape, could not fail to produce perpetual dispute and litigation in the country. It would make the law a great deal worse than it was.
The Duke of Wellingtonrecommended that the execution of the Bill should be postponed until the present game season was over. He thought this might prevent much inconvenience, although, so far as he was personally concerned, it was a matter of indifference whether the Bill came into operation on the 20th of October or the 1st of March.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that the noble Duke had pointed out the inconvenience of making the Bill operative from the 20th of October, but had neglected to advert to the still greater inconvenience of postponing its operation. The Bill sanctioned the sale of game, and it had received the assent, he might say, the unanimous assent—for there had been no division of the House of Commons—and probably this part of the Bill would also receive their Lordships' full concurrence. Now the inconvenience of postponing the operation of the Bill was this, that during a great part, and that the busiest part of the present game season, Magistrates would frequently
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punish persons by fine and imprisonment for an act which both Houses of the Legislature had solemnly sanctioned. They had better submit to some inconvenience than have 2,000 persons sent to prison for what, some days afterwards, would cease to be an offence. Had their Lordships any idea of the extent to which the sale of game was carried on? One salesman came to him to tell him, that last year he had sold 20,000 head of game, and that some weeks he had sold 1,500 head.
The Marquis of Salisburysuggested, that the sale of game might be legalized at once, and the other provisions of the Bill be allowed to stand over.
The Duke of Richmondwould rather there was no alteration in the Game-laws than such an alteration as that. The existing system gave rise to mischiefs enough, but those mischiefs would be fearfully increased if the privilege of making; a profit of the game were added to the number of privileges already complained of.
Lord Suffieldwas convinced, that the measure must be passed this winter, and it was therefore with regret that he concurred in the proposition for sending it to a Committee up-stairs, which, however, he admitted to be necessary.
The Marquis of Londonderryconcurred with the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington), in thinking that the operation of the Bill ought to be delayed till the next season.
The Earl of Carnarvonsaid, there was one principle which pervaded the measure to which he begged to call the attention of the noble Duke. He had great objections to leaving the amount of penalties entirely at the discretion of the Magistrates, as it would tend to produce a great inequality of punishment, according to the disposition of the Magistrate. This uncertainty was a great evil; it would be more advisable that the penalties should be fixed by the Statute, and if it were necessary to give the Magistrates some discretionary power, it would be better to do it by a separate clause allowing them to reduce such penalties by a given sum.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, with the leave of their Lordships, he would withdraw his Motion, and move "That a Select Committee be appointed, and the Bill referred to it."
A Committee appointed accordingly,

SALE OF BEER ACT.
On the Motion of Viscount Melbourne, the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Sale of Beer Act Amendment Bill was read.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that as the law now stood, public-houses were to be closed during the hours of divine service. He wished to propose as an Amendment, as these hours varied in different parishes, the hour of closing such public-houses and beer-shops should be regulated by the hours when Divine service was performing in the respective parishes. Again, the present law prohibited the sale of wine and spirits, but not the consumption of these articles in such beer-houses; he therefore wished a clause to be inserted, prohibiting the consumption of wine and spirits, because it was notorious that both these commodities were consumed, the price being included in the charge for beer.
Viscount Melbourneproposed a clause, to prevent any individual, whose license as a publican had been taken away by the Magistrates, from receiving a license to keep a shop for the sale of beer.
Amendments agreed to.

BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on this Bill.
Lord Wynford, in addressing their Lordships, could assure them, that he was as free from all political bias as in making any charge he had ever delivered in his judicial character. The state of the House shewed, that the Bill was not considered as a political question. From almost empty benches, he appealed to the candour of his noble and learned friend against his own Bill. He had an objection to the first clause, and to that, perhaps, he ought in strictness to confine himself, but, as he had been prevented by indisposition from opposing the committing of the Bill, their Lordships would allow him, he hoped, to state shortly all his objections at once, instead of waiting till the clauses to which they applied should be read. He objected to the new Court to be created by the first part of the first clause. After hearing what his noble friends had said, as to the very satisfactory manner in which the Commissioners of Bankrupts had done their duty, he was sorry that they should be deprived of their offices, upon the prospect of retaining which many of them had formed their establishments; yet,
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as a very respectable body of merchants and bankers had petitioned for a different administration of these laws, and as his noble and learned friend had promised to procure for these Commissioners some compensation for their loss, he should not oppose that part of the Bill by which seven new Judges were to be substituted for seventy old Commissioners. As to the petitioners, none had prayed that a Bankrupt Court might be established, the Judges of which must be paid large salaries for doing the business now done by the Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor; on the contrary, many persons in the city, of the first respectability, objected to the establishment of such a Court, thinking with him, that as the business was now done by the Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor; it would be worse than useless to form any other Court to exercise the same superintendence and control over the Commissioners of Bankrupts, as were now exercised by the Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor. It was not said, that this part of the bankrupt business was not satisfactorily done by the present Law Officers. It was done with as little expense to the suitors, as it would be in the new Court. There was no delay, the business was despatched as fast as it came before the Court, and there was no arrear. The Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor did not complain of its being burthensome; it occupied them only about thirty-five days in each year, and so far from having too much to do, his noble friend had told their Lordships, that he should soon be able to dispense with the services of the Vice-Chancellor. With one breath his noble Friend recommended their Lordships to relieve him of bankruptcy cases, in the next he expressed apprehension of want of employment. No case was made out for appointing four new Judges this year, after having last year appointed two more than were wanted. The salaries of these Judges were not, in the first instance, to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, but out of insolvent estates, taking the funds of creditors, who had already sustained ruinous losses. They would amount to 9,000 l. per annum. To this sum must be added, the salaries of their clerks (for each Judge must have a clerk), the salaries of officers attending and taking care of the Court, and the expense of building it and keeping it in repair. The tax, however, which this Bill imposed on the miserable

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wreck of bankrupts' property, would not be sufficient to defray these charges and some others to be created by It. The Bill made the Suitors' Fund a security for the payment of any deficiency, and against that he protested. The Suitors' Fund might be claimed by those to whom it belonged. The Legislature had no more right to take that Fund for the payment of the expenses of the Bankrupt Court, than to take any other part of the suitors' property. Bankrupt property did not contribute to that Fund, and, therefore, no part of it could, with any colour of justice, be taken for any expenses incurred in cases arising out of bankruptcy. A considerable part of these expenses must ultimately come from the Consolidated Fund, and it was for their Lordships to decide, whether unnecessary burthens ought to be brought on the country. Did the noble Lord, the author of the Bill, think that this Court would do its business with satisfaction to the public? If not, why incur this useless expense? The decision of bankrupt cases required a profound knowledge, not only of the whole system of commercial law, but of all parts of the law that in any manner relates to every description of property. The Judges of this Court would have to direct Juries upon issues of fact, and ought, therefore, to be conversant with the Nisi Prius practice, and be able to explain complicated cases. They ought to be taken from the most eminent leaders in Westminster-Hall. Eminent men had sometimes given up extensive practice, and taken a seat on the Bench, which was a station of high rank, and of great dignity. Men who had made a fortune, were sometimes disposed, whilst possessing the full energy of their minds, to accept the office of Judge. But the Legislature did not purpose to invest these Judges with the dignity that belongs to a Judge of one of the Supreme Courts. No such men, therefore, as he had spoken of, would accept these Judgeships. It would be better, therefore, as well as cheaper, to leave the decision of matters of law and equity in bankruptcy cases, to the Court of Chancery, and allow that Court to send issues of fact to the Supreme Courts of Common Law, than to transfer law, equity, and fact, to one newly-constituted Court. The noble and learned Lord complained that time and money were wasted by appeals from the Vice-Chancellor to himself. Would the decisions of
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this new Court be respected as much as those of the Vice-Chancellor? No, there would, for a considerable time at least, be appeals in every case. The delay and expense of proceedings in bankruptcies would, therefore, be doubled. All these evils were to be purchased at an expense, of the extent of which few could form an idea, for nothing like a probable statement of what it would amount to had been laid before their Lordships. Connected with this part of the case was the subject of the trial of issues by the Bankrupt Court. An unfortunate bankrupt, ruined by the losses incidental to trade, was an object of commiseration; yet by this Bill he would be in a worse situation than any other person who was forced to appeal to the law of his country. He would be deprived of the right of trying his cause in what Court he thought proper, and of the more important right, of carrying his case to the highest Court of Appeal. The noble and learned Lord, the Chancellor of Ireland, opposing the Fraudulent Debtors' Bill, expressed much anxiety to prevent men from being subjected to all the penal con sequences of the Bankrupt Laws, who fell not within their scope. What would that noble Lord say to a Bill, that took from the man who had the misfortune to be declared a bankrupt, some of the means which the law now afforded him to extricate himself from his ruinous and degrading condition? He might now try the validity of his Commission in any one of the Courts of Westminster that he chose to select, and if he objected to the opinion of the presiding Judge on the law of his case, he might require that Judge to allow his opinion to be reduced to writing, and bring that opinion before their Lordships. This privilege was given to all the parties in civil causes in the Courts of Westminster, by a very ancient Statute, which had contributed more to secure the suitors against the prejudices, the conceits, and the hasty opinions of Judges, than any other law. The poor bankrupt, however, would have no choice of Courts; he would have no bill of exceptions; his fate must depend on the judgment of the Bankrupt Court, and of the Lord Chancellor. He could not bring his case before the last Court of Appeal, unless both parties agreed, a thing not likely; or unless the Lord Chancellor should wish to have his judgment reviewed. He should uniformly oppose the giving discretionary

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power unnecessarily. He had opposed, and should; oppose, the subjecting the clergy to the arbitrary discretion of the Archbishops or Privy Council; and he would also oppose subjecting any suitor to the arbitrary discretion of any Lord Chancellor. The writ of error was a writ of right To say that a bankrupt should not try his case before that House unless his adversaries or the Lord Chancellor would consent, was to deprive him, without any even specious cause, of an advantage he might now obtain. He objected to the clause which authorized the appointment of two Registrars and eight Deputy-registrars. If their Lordships agreed with him, none of these registrars or deputy-registrars would be required. The business would be done by the solicitors and the assignees, as at present. All the proceedings were filed as regularly under the 6th George 4th as they would be under this new Bill. If a Court of Bankruptcy be established, half the number of Judges appointed by this Bill would be sufficient. The Common Pleas had twenty times the business that ever this Court could have, and had but three Prothonotaries and three Secondaries, the number of which, by a late Act, was to be reduced. If these registrars were not absolutely, necessary, why load the estates of bankrupts with an expense of about 5,600 l. per annum to pay their salaries? A single Commissioner might declare a man a Bankrupt under this Bill. Under the present law, a man could not be declared a bankrupt without the concurrence of three Commissioners; and they ought not to adjudge a man a bankrupt until he had been heard in his defence. He must, therefore, protest against the merchants and bankers of this country being rendered liable to be posted in the Gazette as bankrupts, to be divested of all their property, their business stopped, and themselves and their families turned out of their houses, on an ex parte hearing before one Commissioner. The Commissioner might indeed, if he found difficulty, advise with the other Commissioners, but there were some men who never found any difficulty until the answer was heard. He should trouble their Lordships with but one objection more, for if he had not satisfied their Lordships, by what he had already said, that this Bill had been taken up with too much haste, and required more consideration before it passed into a
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law, he must despair of success upon any other grounds. He could not think it was right that a burthen of at least 22.000 l. per annum, a sum exceeding that paid to seventy Commissioners, should be imposed on bankrupts estates, for the remuneration of thirty public or official assignees. This was the part of the Bill to which he himself felt the greatest objection, and against which he was bound to add, the mercantile interest in London entertained the greatest objection. He had had many communications with highly respectable traders in London on this subject, and he knew how adverse their feeling was to the appointment of assignees. They declared that they would give up any benefit which they might expect from the appointment of Commissioners tinder this measure, rather than allow a body of public assignees to be formed. If the modern theory were right, that men can take care of their own interests, and that the less Government interfere with them in the management of their concerns the better, no such officers were necessary. The assignees were at present chosen by the creditors—would they not choose the persons most likely to take care of their property? Why were creditors to be treated as children, and have persons appointed as guardians to manage their affairs? The creditors had a power over the assignees of their choice, which they would not have over those appointed by the Court. If assignees did not pay the money that came to their hands into the Bank, they were liable to a penalty of twenty per cent. But his noble and learned friend said, that they suffered it to remain in the hands of the solicitor to the commission, and then they swore, with a good conscience, that they had no money in their hands. He protested against this doctrine. No assignee who did not inquire whether the solicitor had any money in his hands did his duty. The solicitor to the commission was appointed by the assignees, and was their agent. Money in his hand was money in their hands. If they chose to remain wilfully blind as to what money the solicitor had, that they might swear they had no money, they incurred the guilt of perjury. But that might be guarded against by an order from the Court of Chancery, directing the Commissioners from time to time to examine on oath both assignees and solicitors, as to what money they had in hand, and requiring

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the Act of Parliament in all cases to be strictly and immediately complied with. The public assignee was, he was aware, to give security; but who that would accept this office would be able to find security for those sums that must come into his hands? Their Lordships might be assured, that the present law had preserved bankrupts' estates better than any security that could be obtained from assignees. His noble and learned friend said, that these assignees would save the expense of accountants. If they did the business of accountants, they would require to be paid as such, and the Commissioner who had the extraordinary power given him of settling in each case what the rate of commission was to be, would pay as much to an assignee who did the business of an accountant, as to another assignee and to an accountant together. A portion of these individuals was, it appeared, to be selected from that class of persons who were in the habit of acting as Special Jurors. He rather feared, as many of those gentlemen were individuals who had retired from business in consequence of the infirmities of age, that little assistance could be received from them. If, however, public assignees were wanted in London, they must be equally wanted in the country; but the country, into which two-thirds of the commissions of bankrupt were issued, was not to have the advantage of public assignees. The Bill had now been for some time before Parliament, but none of the great trading towns had complained that their interests were not protected by public assignees; and not a single petition had been sent up to their Lordships upon the subject. The Bill imposed on the country a great and unnecessary expense, the extent of which their Lordships could not see, for they had no accounts before Athena on which to form any judgment. Besides the charges to which he had alluded, there would be compensations to several officers, and to the discarded Commissioners. Bankrupts' estates would not bear these charges—the Suitors' Fund could not be rendered liable to them—they must, therefore, fall on the Consolidated Fund. He reluctantly gave, up the Commissioners, from deference to the opinion of the petitioners. That, however, was an alteration that might be made without any increase of expense. Indeed, seven or a greater number of Commissioners would not put the bankrupts' estates
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to the expense that was now occasioned by the seventy Commissioners, which he estimated at about 23,000 l. But the expenses of the Court, of the Registrars, and of the public assignees were useless. The new Court would only multiply appeals, and the increasing the number of Judges would tend to lower the character of Judges. It was essential, however, to the due administration of justice that the Judges should be looked up to with the greatest respect, and why were the Judges in England held in greater estimation than those on the continent, amongst whom were many persons highly distinguished for learning and abilities? Because the number of Judges here was so much less than in other countries. He could only entreat their Lordships to pause—to inquire before they made such an extensive alteration in the law as was proposed by the Bill under consideration. Let them not look at bankruptcy only—the whole law of debtor and creditor was a disgrace to the country. Upon the whole, the Bill only substituted a bad system for a good one, and he moved that the words appointing the new Court should be left out.
The Lord Chancellordid not complain that his noble and learned friend had entered improperly into the whole of this question on the present occasion. It was most desirable to have the benefit of his observations on the subject; and, as he had not before had an opportunity of going into the question at length, he had now, very properly, stated his objections altogether, instead of separating them, and confining them to different clauses and different parts of the Bill; but his noble friend having done so, he should be under the necessity, although he troubled their Lordships at some length the other night, of again trespassing on their attention. He should, however, confine himself strictly and exclusively to the parts to which his noble and learned friend had adverted. The first objection taken by his noble and learned friend extended to the first clause of the Bill, to the appointing some Commissioners and abolishing others; but his noble friend seemed to have mistaken the object of the clause. His noble and learned friend seemed to think that the principle of the Bill, was to substitute for the present number of Commissioners only seven, and then to substitute, in the place of the Great Seal and the Vice-Chancellor's

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Court, the Court of Review, which it was proposed to establish: but this was not the strict nor the correct mode of stating the principle of the Bill. The fundamental principle of the Bill was not the substitution of a Court of Review for the purpose of exercising the functions which the Great Seal, and the Vice-Chancellor, representing the Great Seal, at present exercised, by way of appeal, from the Commissioners, but it was proposed that that Court should exercise other functions which the Vice Chancellor and the Lord Chancellor, hearing appeals from the Commissioners, did not exercise unless their decisions upon disputed testimony, and upon conflicting testimony on affidavit, were taken to be the same as a Trial by Jury in matters of fact, which they clearly and manifestly were not. It might be right or wrong, that the Court of Review should, from time to time, try questions instead of their being tried in Westminster Hall; and that part of the Bill might or might not be liable to objection on the part of his noble and learned friend, he having an inclination, as he admitted all members of the profession had, in favour of Trial by Jury in Westminster Hall, in preference to anew Court. The institution or exclusion of that Court might or might not be necessary; though presently he hoped to shew their Lordships, that it was necessary; but the other objection of his noble friend appeared to him to be totally inconsistent. It was impossible to say that the Court of Review was substituted for the Chancellor and the Vice-Chancellor sitting to hear appeals in bankruptcy cases, because the Chancellor and the Vice Chancellor never try issues; they could not try issues; some men had doubted, indeed, whether they could not; but the experiment had never been brought to the test; and he doubted whether the equity side was enabled to do so at all. Was it therefore correct to say, that when a tribunal was established in the bosom as it were of the Court of Chancery—was it a correct representation of the powers of the Court of Review, which was to have delegated to it the important functions of trying facts by a jury—to say that it was merely a substitution for the jurisdiction at present exercised by the Lord Chancellor and the Vice-Chancellor, who never try issues at all? One of his great objections to the present course of proceeding was this, Every Chancellor and
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every man practised in Chancery, knew that the cases least of all fit to be tried on affidavit were those which involved questions of fact—the questions whether a man owes a certain sum of money, whether he has committed an act of bankruptcy, whether he has denied himself, whether he has left his home with intent to avoid his creditors, are all questions of fact more fit to be tried by a Jury than by a single Judge on affidavit; the question whether a man was in trade, was not so much a question of fact—or whether he was in trade within a certain time; all these questions were at present tried by the Great Seal or the Vice-Chancellor on affidavit. In the very last case of this description which came before him, he was between eight and nine hours engaged in hearing a mass of affidavits, of which from sixty to seventy had been filed, affidavit meeting affidavit, containing all kinds of denials, explanations, contradictions, and admissions, new facts, and again, denials of these new facts—witnesses swearing three, four, and five deep, and the whole of this mass of evidence was brought in and flung at his head—to use a Westminster-Hall phrase—and with the assistance of counsel who threw them at his head, he had to decide upon this mass of evidence. It used to be the case in the Courts of King's Bench and Common Pleas, that a man got up and read, not giving the Court the essence and substance of the affidavits, but reading, school-boy like, affidavits, first one, then the other, and then on both sides, made a few observations, and sat down, giving place to another man not a whit better than his predecessor. In Chancery, however, a counsel went through the case, and opened it at great length—then came another counsel—the junior, and read the greater part of the affidavits, and then four or five counsel got up, one after another, and addressed the Court, it being the practice in Chancery to open every possible door for the admission of counsel, and any number of counsel was allowed; but in the Courts of Common Law, as his noble and learned friend knew, cases were always, or, at least generally, discussed by one counsel on each side, with the assistance of a junior: in them there was a limit, but in the Court of Chancery there was no limit, and ten counsel might speak on each side. That, however, was not all; cases perpetually occurred in which there might

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be ten different parties, each of whom might have the shadow of a separate interest. In ninety-nine cases out of 100, these interests were substantially, though not legally the same; and the Court had to hear the same argument repeated over and over again with equal prolixity, before it could arrive at the question of fact respecting which the parties were at issue. This might be good for many purposes—it might be excellent for counsel and excellent for attornies, who expended their client's money in the shape of fees—it might be admirable for loss of time, too—a part of the surplus population might die off, and there might not be so many parties to receive the property; but there was one thing it was not very well adapted for, and that was, for arriving at the merits of the case. He did not complain of the length of time occupied, but the system was not a good one for ascertaining facts. His noble and learned friend knew, from long experience of able advocates—himself being one of the ablest of his day—that it was quite sufficient for a man to get up and state the case succinctly and clearly. He would do Common Lawyers the justice to say, that nine times out of ten, they did not occupy the attention of the Court for a longer time than was necessary; indeed, they were careful not to enter into the subject too much at length, because, not having the matter before them in detail in the affidavits, they were always afraid the witnesses should not come up to their statement; and, therefore, they said what was necessary for the purpose of making the Judge and Jury understand the case. There never was a better system of getting at facts than Trial by Jury, under which a counsel rose up in his place, and gave a clear and succinct account of the whole case, as was done in our Courts of law; he then called his witnesses, who stated the facts, instead of exhausting himself as counsel in the Court of Chancery would do, and exhausting the Court by making a speech of four or five hours, and never coming to the facts, as if they were not material; he had then a number of affidavits read; and again he exhausted himself by making another long speech in reply. In the Courts of Law the counsel directed their whole knowledge, their whole experience, and their whole attention, to that which was the most material part of the case—the truth of the matter;
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the Court also had much better means of judging, from the manner in which a witness gave his evidence in open Court, whether or not he was speaking the truth, than if it were to sit down and read long affidavits. Any man who wished to see great talents called into exercise, would do well to go to a Court of Law—let him omit the speech altogether, and see the play of the counsel during the time the evidence is adduced—how much they are on the alert, straining every nerve—careless of the speech, for experienced counsel, except on very great occasions, rarely detain the Court many minutes—but exerting their whole mind and soul, discharging their duty to their clients, by producing the facts luminously, consistently, and irrefragably before the Jury. The Jury had an opportunity of watching the demeanour of the witnesses while giving their evidence, and when submitted to cross-examination; after which came the counsel again, comforting and restoring, as it were, and setting up the broken credit of the witnesses damaged by the cross-examination. The conflict on both sides being over, the evidence of the witnesses was fairly before the Court. A Juryman, by a single glance of his eye, could frequently tell whether the witness was speaking truth or falsehood; many circumstances and details that could not be taken down in notes could frequently settle at once the credit due to a man's testimony. Was there a man in England who would not at once say, that the decision of twelve men possessing these means of information, must be better than that of one individual excluded from such advantages? His noble and learned friend would agree with him, he was sure, when he said, that the Jury were sometimes right when the Judges were wrong; and Judges sometimes admitted, that they took, what they afterwards found out to be a wrong view of the case, while the Jury took a right one. One man might be an excellent means for deciding a point of law: one experienced Judge for superintending a Jury was excellent; but twelve men were infinitely better for deciding in cases where there was conflicting evidence, and where that evidence was to be brought before them in an uncertain shape, and under a great variety of bearings;—one man took one view and another another, each seizing the case, as it were, by a different handle, until, by reflection and argument, they came to an unanimous and correct decision.

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These were the advantages which Trial by Jury possessed over every other tribunal. To ascertain facts this system was the best, and one man sitting in Court to decide facts upon a mass of affidavits was the worst that could be devised. The proposition contained in the Bill, therefore, was, that all disputed matters of fact should be tried by a Jury, acting under the superintendence of one of these Judges—so it would not be solely and entirely a Court of Review, but a Court in the first instance for trying difficult and disputed facts. His noble and learned friend justly observed, that there was an advantage in having these offices filled by men of ability and experience, but he also observed, that there would be very few difficult and disputed cases, and very little for these Judges to do. With regard to that objection, the number of disputed cases which came before the Great Seal and the Vice-Chancellor in the course of the year was considerable, and, what was still more material, a considerable number of these cases, perhaps the greater number of them, never obtained a decision at all. Under the present system, too, there was always the expense, trouble, delay, and of appealing to the Vice-Chancellor. The effect of the plan he be, to give a facility for the trial of cases of this description, and for trying them, which was a material consideration, without delay or expense. His noble and learned friend stated, that this Court would be substituted for the Courts of Westminster Hall; that a man might say, "I am made a bankrupt, and I consider it very hard to be denied an appeal from the Court which I dislike, to the Court which I approve of." But if his noble and learned friend would only observe, what he was about to say, he should be enabled to convince him, that his view of this part of the question was not quite correct. Assuming that there would be a sufficiency of business to employ these Judges, which was a conclusion founded on a calculation of the total number of disputed cases, he could see no objection to a man allowing his case to be decided by men continually practised in these cases. Assuming the contrary, it was not correct to say, that you exclude a man from having the benefit of the legal knowledge of the Chief Justices or other Judges, which he agreed with his noble and learned friend, was a very great benefit. The principle of the
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Bill was, to put a stop to arguing as to disputed facts, as was now done by petition, before the Vice-Chancellor and Chancellor, and to enable the inferior Courts to decide questions of that description by the help of a Jury. It could not be denied, that these inferior Courts would save much expense, and be just as able to form correct decisions as the Vice-Chancellor. But then it should be remembered, that if any point of law or equity was disputed, there was an express saving of the jurisdiction of the Chancellor; therefore, anything which would come into a bill of exception, if the case were tried before my Lord Tenterden, or the Court of Common Pleas, would immediately come, instead of having a bill of exception, which would carry it to the Exchequer Chamber, to the Great Seal at once. There was an express provision too, enabling the Court, should it think fit, instead of sending a case to the Great Seal, to send it directly up to that House; and his noble and learned friend knew, that there were in that House the very best authorities upon the subject, he meant those who had preceded him in office; indeed the difficulties be experienced in coming after such men were among the greatest by which he was embarrassed, although they had left him for his guide a code of sound opinions, and decisions, which rendered it only necessary for him to apply the light which their learning and wisdom, and the doctrines laid down in their decrees, had shed over all the doubtful and difficult points of equity. In particular the noble and learned Lord opposite—who, for so many years filled the judicial seat—had left such a code of equity behind him, that the Judge had only to resort to his authority. But, as he had before stated, there was a provision, that instead of going to the Chancellor, the Court below could pass him by altogether, and send the case up at once for the decision of the House of Lords. It was not correct, therefore, to say, either that the benefit of an appeal to the twelve Judges, or to this House, or to the Chancellor, or the Vice-Chancellor, or their Lordships' House, was to be excluded. It certainly was excluded in matters of fact, but not in matters of law. Another observation of his noble and learned friend which struck him rather forcibly, was, his objection to one man, in a case of bankruptcy, ultimately making another a bankrupt; but that was here provided for.

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His noble and learned friend also objected to giving the power of making a man a bankrupt into the hands of the new Judges. By the Bill it certainly was provided, that one Judge could enter into the inquiry, but it was also provided, that the moment he found any extraordinary difficulty, either in point of fact or in point of law, he was obliged to call for further assistance. If, however, it was as clear that the man had been a trader, and that he had committed an act of bankruptcy, as that he had a nose on his face, the Commissioner then decided the case. If it were not a clear case, the Commissioner adjourned it for further consideration, and then obtaining the assistance of two other Commissioners, the three, sitting together, would decide upon the facts, and adjudge accordingly. He apprehended, therefore, that a man would never be found a bankrupt by one Commissioner, in any but a straightforward and plain case. At present, in straightforward cases, one Commissioner did the business; and the moment a necessity arose for what was called a private examination, which only took place in cases of difficulty, then the other two came to his assistance, and the whole three took the case into their hands. His object had been, to select whatever was good or worthy of preservation out of the present system, and in this instance he proposed that the new Commissioners should proceed on the principle on which all the Lists now act, but with a great improvement, in consequence of the provision which had been made for cases in which anything like difficulties arose. His noble and learned friend had said, that there ought to be a notice given to a bankrupt, before you take possession of his property, and that he ought, not to be found a bankrupt ex parte. That was a subject, as his noble and learned friend knew well, which had been a question of long, anxious, and difficult inquiry, among legislators and lawyers, ever since the Bankrupt-laws existed. At present, a man might be made a bankrupt, and his goods taken possession of, and he know nothing whatever about it. This might all be done behind his back; it had been long objected to, but it was impossible to say more about it, unless some tolerably easy and safe means of abolishing the practice could be suggested. In Scotland, on a petition for a sequestration, which is a proceeding in the nature of a Commission of Bankrupt, ten days' time
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is given the party before execution; that is to say a rule nisi was taken out, which expired in ten days, giving the party an opportunity of superseding the Commission. It was one thing, however, to have a system of law long established in a country which had never known a different system, and it was another thing to introduce a practice into a country which had never known anything whatever of it, and therefore it by no means followed, because the system worked well in Glasgow, that it would also be beneficial in Liverpool or London. That was, no doubt, a question well deserving of discussion; and accordingly, he begged to state to their Lordships, and to his noble and learned friend, that it had received a great deal of consideration. He proposed, in the first instance, to introduce this system of the rule nisi, which was one of the principles in the sketch of the Bill which he laid before certain learned individuals for consideration; but he withdrew it, because it was agreed, that although the subject was always open to the modification, which his noble and learned friend's long experience had suggested, yet, that at all events the seizure of goods must be ex parte, though the making a man a bankrupt might take place after a few days' delay: but then there would be this great difficulty, that though you seize the goods, you could not prevent him from tampering with his creditor, unless something like a bodily attachment, or arrest, was introduced. They could not do this, however, without being the cause of as much mischief as would arise from declaring a man a bankrupt at once. On the whole, it was considered better, that the property should be seized as heretofore, and that the point of bankruptcy should be left for the consideration of another tribunal. His noble and learned friend complained of the expense of the system which it was proposed to introduce. His noble and learned friend had stated the expense of the Commissioners at 9,000 l., which was only taking so much out of the estate in one way instead of another. There were at present seventy Commissioners of Bankrupt; and one list had returned that their incomes averaged from 300 l. to 400 l. a-year, so, that instead of 9,000 l. this would make about 25,000 l. annually, taken out of bankrupts' estates for the fees of the Commissioners. But the profits of Commissioners of Bankrupt did not average

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so little as 300 l. a-year; however, call it more or call it less, it was far above the noble and learned Lord's statement; and if 9,000 l. were deducted from his estimate of the present expense, the ultimate saving by the proposed plan, would be at least 22,000 l. From calculations he had made, including the expenses of bargain and sale, the salaries of the Commissioners, and various other expenses, there would be a great saving of expense, and there would be a saving of from 11,000 l. to 12,000 l. by the appointment of official assignees. It was clear, that it was not for their Lordships to go into the amount of salaries; that was to be dealt with elsewhere; nevertheless, he agreed with his noble and learned friend, that if he could not support this part of his case, it would be a very great objection to the introduction of this Bill. He was convinced there would be a saving in the whole of about 24,000 l.; but take it at 20,000 l. and even then, at all events, the proposed plan was not a measure of extravagance, but one of economy. His noble and learned friend entered more into detail with respect to some other parts of the plan, into which inquiry he should not follow him; but he would detain their Lordships one instant, by saying a word with respect to fees. His noble and learned friend said, that in the Bill it was enacted, "That from and after the passing of this Act, all fees in bankruptcy, &c., or any other matter whatever, shall entirely cease and determine." That was very true—that would be the effect of the clause if it stopped there; but if his learned friend had exercised his power of reading a little longer, he would have found it was different; for, after a comma, it continued thus: "save and except such and such fees as are provided for by this Act, or set forth in any schedule of fees to be settled or allowed from time to time by the said Court of Review, with the approbation of the Lord Chancellor, to be signified by him." Thus there was to be a schedule of fees, which was to be allowed by this Act. He did not know whether their Lordships had taken the trouble to advert to it; as it was quite clear, that it was a subject for the consideration of the other House of Parliament, being a question for them to deal with. He had trespassed a long time on the attention of their Lordships, but he trusted that his anxiety to render the bearing of this measure clear and intelligible to every body would plead
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his excuse. He had now answered all the objections which had been brought forward against this measure. He did not recollect any requisite explanation; but if any of their Lordships could remind him, he should feel much obliged. He meant to make one or two observations respecting the present Commissioners, which escaped his recollection on the former evening. He thought he had, on a former evening, clearly explained the defects in the selection of the present Commissioners; but there was another point which he omitted on the last evening to state, namely, that in consequence of the number of the present Commissioners, a great number of inferior men were, ex necessitate, appointed by the Great Seal to the situation of Commissioners; but there was another objection: these inferior Commissioners had a salary of but 300 l. or 400 l. a-year; and consequently they received an inferior portion of this inferior man's time. It was absolutely impossible that any man, in the situation and rank of life of a barrister, with, perhaps, a family to support all the year round, in winter and in summer (for there was no long vacation for a Bankrupt Commissioner), could give up his time for the small pittance of 300 l. or 400 l. a-year. It was perfectly well known, that they never thought of appearing in their proper places, if they could possibly get better retained elsewhere; so that they acted as Commissioners when they had nothing better to do; or, in other words, in return for the small pittance which was allowed to them, they gave the fag-end of their time. They all attend during Term time to their professional avocations as Barristers, in Westminster Hall, and in the Court of Chancery; and out of Term time they went the circuit. All this resulted from their being ill-paid. This was a great objection to the present system, and one which was effectually removed in the system which he proposed; for they would have ample remuneration, and, by this means, their duty in the Bankruptcy Court might monopolize their time all the year round. It was said, that it was impossible to get good men to surrender their Court-practice (for the new Judges were altogether forbidden from practising in their profession) for such a small sum as the Bill proposed to give to them. On this point he differed. He was sure they should be able to find as good men as any at the Bar, who would not only be willing to

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give up their practice for the appointment of one of these judgeships, but would be entirely satisfied with their lot. It was very well known, that professional excellence and professional rank did not always go hand in hand. There were many men of first-rate talent at the bar at this moment, making but 3,000 l., or even 2,000 l. a year: while others, perhaps their inferiors, but certainly not more than their equals, made 8,000 l., 9,000 l., and 10,000 l. It was not, therefore, an absurd speculation to expect to find good and efficient men, whose professional remuneration had not kept pace with their legal acquirements and talents, who would be glad to surrender a doubtful professional income of 3,000 l., or 5,000 l. a-year, for a secure salary of 2,000 l. He could name many men of first-rate professional acquirements, even now in the possession of silk-gowns, who would be extremely glad to make such an exchange—and this was very natural, for the one was permanent, and the other insecure. The one only ceased by death; while the other was of so uncertain a tenure, that a breath of wind might destroy it. The very lawyer at the head of the circuit which his noble and learned friend went when a Barrister, had told him, that he would be glad to get one of the situations: and one of the twelve Judges was at this moment prepared to leave the bench if he could obtain one of the appointments. Now this latter fact was a pretty good argument against his noble and learned friend, and, as an ounce of fact weighed heavier than a stone of argument, he had submitted it to their Lordships' attention. He did not say this from any disrespect for his noble and learned friend; indeed, he should be inclined to admit that, generally, his noble and learned friend's stone of argument might be equivalent to an ounce of sense, but, on the present occasion, he had certainly formed a wrong conclusion. He was a little surprised to hear his noble and learned friend say, that it would be difficult to get competent Barristers to fill these situations, when he, in propria persona furnished him with a strong argument against his own position; for what were the circumstances under which he, his noble and learned friend, left his profession? He was in the receipt of one of the largest professional incomes then made at the Bar; an income, too, which could never sensibly fail him,
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except in the event of death or continued ill health. And what did he do? His professional income amounted to—he would not say 20,000 l, or 30,000 l. a-year—but, at all events, to a very large amount, and yet he gave it up to take a small income, with a seat on the Bench? This was not at all strange, but it certainly did surprise him to hear his noble and learned friend express a doubt of their ability to induce competent professional men to surrender good professional incomes for the salary of 2,000 l. per annum. Many would be found ready to do so, some from ill-health, others from fatigue arising from professional labour, but all in the prime of life, and with the full possession of their faculties. He did, therefore, entertain no fear of being able to obtain competent candidates for these situations. He did not mean to say, that all of them would be men of equal competence, but they would be all respectably so. His object in filling up the appointments would be to select a portion of the number from Barristers with silk gowns on their backs. He was most anxious that such men should be chosen, because, if they started the Court with a set of men eminent for their professional acquirements, it would stamp it with a name, and effectually prevent the vacancies from being tilled up hereafter with any but eminent and competent men. His noble and learned friend had said, that great embarrassment would attend the filling up of these places, and seemed to recommend that a portion of the seventy Commissioners who were to be disbanded should be selected. Now, on this point, he should only observe, that, in the selection, if he should find a name on any of the lists equally competent with that of any other claimant, he would decide in favour of the present Commissioners. This he would do for two reasons—first, on a principle of justice, and secondly, that by doing so, he should save that compensation to individuals to the public purse. On the subject of compensation, as he had accidentally mentioned it, he would say a few words before he sat down; but first, he was desirous of making one or two observations with respect to the official assignees—a portion of the plan which he was sorry to see did not meet with the approbation of his noble and learned friend. There was no part of the Bill which he liked more than this. It was a common remark, that no persons looked less after

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their own interests than the honest creditors—and, consequently, it was those whom it should be the duty of a Legislature to protect—of either a bankrupt or an insolvent. The moment a docket was struck, or a declaration of insolvency filed, they became desponding, gave up all for lost, and would take any thing for their chance—indeed, he had known cases where men had taken 100 l. for a claim on a bankrupt's estate for 10,000 l.; and, in consequence of their despondency and inattention, they became the prey of another class of creditors less careless—he meant one or two jobbing people, the friends of the bankrupt, who, for the sole purpose of jobbing, took great pains to attend to the bankrupt's affairs. Again, if the creditors did not attend, the bankrupt, if he were a rogue (and bankrupts but too frequently were), would manage to create a sufficient number of debts, in order that he might have the majority of his creditors at his disposal, and thereby, in the first place, get better treatment, and secondly, procure a sufficient number of signatures to his certificate. In fact, but few cases were heard in Basinghall-street, in which the bankrupt and fictitious creditor did not join to create debts. This constituted one inducement for the appointment of these official assignees, for they would at once, on the docket being struck, take into their possession the property of the bankrupt. There was another inducement, an important one, and that was, that assignees were generally persons in the interest of the attornies or solicitors to the Commission, and their resistance to perform their duties very often threw the whole property of the bankrupt into a Law Court, by which the Attorney's costs were of course, much increased. Now, when the duties which were at present discharged by Assignees chosen by the creditors, were placed in the hands of proper and responsible persons, who were to have the decision as to the necessity of a legal opinion, all this much complained of collision between assignee and solicitor would be defeated; and as certain rules were to be laid down for the regulation of the conduct of these official assignees, the frequent recourse to the Law Courts would be very much diminished. As to the difficulty which his noble and learned friend seemed to think would be experienced by these individuals in finding sufficient security, all he should say was, that
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if a man could not get security for 2,500 l. for he must give this amount of security—before the Accountant of the Court—two sureties of 1,000 l. each, and his own security for 500 l., he was not fit to be appointed to the situation of Official Assignee. These were the only remarks which he thought necessary to make, and he trusted they would prove satisfactory to their Lordships, and in particular to his noble and learned friend. The Bill was now fully before their Lordships, and it was for them to decide whether it offered greater advantages than the existing system. He did not mean to say it was perfect—that would be impossible. He maintained, that every measure to alter the existing law must of necessity be imperfect. He knew it would require revision, and if it was to be revised, he would, on that account, take no blame to himself. He was so well convinced of the impossibility of rendering any legal measure perfect, if he might use a medical phrase, by the first intention, that he should feel surprised if, within a year and a-half, the measure which he now looked on as complete as circumstances permitted, would not require amendment. Before he concluded, he would wish to say a very few words on the topic of compensation. This was a topic which more concerned the other House of Parliament to consider than their Lordships; but thus much he would say in reference to it—he would recommend, that if it were the intention of the Legislature to facilitate the completion of this measure, and to pass it in such manner as to entitle it to the satisfaction of the country, they should not haggle with respect to compensation. If they did, they would raise against it a host of interested, and consequently zealous antagonists. But putting this consideration out of the question, justice, as well as policy, demanded of them that they should give compensation to all those whose interests would be affected by the change. He knew that this was a principle of policy concerning which many different opinions existed out of doors, but at the same time he should ever maintain it. Such were his sentiments on this point, and having thus briefly stated them, he would now sit down, thanking their Lordships for the patience and attention with which they had been pleased to hear him.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas very happy to hear the few last words which had fallen

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from the noble and learned Lord. He confessed that he had felt very strongly on the case which had been stated the other evening of Mr. Thurlow. He understood that an office had been granted by patent to Lord Thurlow's nephew, and that the Bill before the House went to abolish that office. If the patent were legally granted, he was of opinion that Mr. Thurlow was as much entitled to retain that office as any one of their Lordships his estate. He therefore trusted, that the noble and learned Lord, and the King's Ministers, would not permit the Bill to pass into a law, unless compensation was awarded to Mr. Thurlow.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that Lord Thurlow had gone out of office in 1792, and had lived for twelve or fourteen years after, without any retiring pension, which was not granted to Chancellors when he went out of office. His patents were, therefore, vested rights, not merely as gratuitous grants, but, as having been purchased since, they were only what he had instead of the retired pension. No doubt, therefore, Mr. Thurlow would have an adequate compensation; but that must be settled in the other House. There were other cases in which compensation must be allowed, so that the immediate public saving would not be by any means so large as it would ultimately be.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, that Lord Thurlow had been Teller of the Exchequer, and it had been proposed in the House of Commons, that if he would state, what income he had when made Lord Chancellor, the House would make it up to him. Lord Thurlow was a man of high spirit, and refused to make any bargain on the subject. Compensation had always been made to patentees, and often even to men who did not hold their offices for life, on the principle that the best men would not accept such offices if they were precarious. He would defer the observations he had to make on the Bill till another opportunity, and there were two points which he should feel called upon especially to notice. The first was, the low rate of salaries would not obtain such persons as ought to hold a judicial situation, and the second was, that the creditors were to pay the official assignee. He must further take the liberty of intimating to the noble and learned Lord, that it would be dangerous to touch the property of suitors in Chancery, except for the
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purpose for which the fund was raised. The Suitors' Fund was raised for a specific purpose.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the Suitors' Fund was only to be applied in the event of a deficiency occurring in the other funds, which he thought was very unlikely to happen.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, he did not like any interference whatever with the fund.
Lord Wynfordsaid, it had been an understanding between him and the noble Duke, that he should make no observations relating to the case of Mr. Thurlow, but the manner in which his noble and learned friend had alluded to the circumstance, had given him very considerable satisfaction. He had laid down a rule which ought to be acted upon in all such cases.
Lord Plunkettwas convinced that an alteration in the present system was expedient, and he entirely concurred, and felt great satisfaction in saying so, in the measure proposed by his noble and learned friend to amend it. He had some experience in bankruptcy cases, and from the situation he had the honour to hold, that experience was daily increasing, and he felt that a great reformation was required. What he rose for, however, was, to notice a circumstance which the delicacy of his noble and learned friend on the Woolsack had not permitted him to mention. He would lose a great deal of patronage by his own measure, and even this very patent place of Mr. Thurlow might, have been at his disposal, had it not been for this Bill. Although his noble and learned friend had not mentioned it, the gratitude and thanks of the public were not the less due to him.
Lord Wynford's Amendment negatived without a division.
The Lord Chancellor added some verbal amendments, and the House resumed.