Sitting of 19 October 1831

MINUTES.
Bills. Vestries; Lords Amendment agreed to.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUME, the number of Persons Imprisoned for Offences against the Game Laws.
Petitions presented. By Mr. EVANS, from the Journeymen Shoemakers of Northampton, for the Repeal of the Tax on Newspapers:—By Mr. HUME, from Householders of Clerkenwell, for a Repeal of the House and Window Tax; from an Individual confined in the King's Bench Prison, against the Law of Arrest for Debt; from the Inhabitants of Chichester for the abolition of the Pension List

TITHES—PRESCRIPTION.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition from the land-owners of Nether Staveley and Over Staveley, for a limitation of time beyond which no
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right to tithes in kind could be claimed. The petitioners stated, that for the last 250 years the lands in their parishes had been exempt from tithes, except upon wheat, for which they paid a modus. Recently, however, the right to levy tithes in kind upon the whole land had been claimed, and legal proceedings taken to enforce it. He very much regretted that the bill which had been proposed on the subject of Prescription, and which would have put an end to so monstrous an evil, had not been passed.
Mr. Warburtonthought that any future measure introduced on this subject hereafter should be retrospective in its operation, because in the interval many claims would be made, and these would be the cause of much expensive and vexatious litigation.
Mr. John Campbellregretted the loss of the former bill the less, as he considered it very objectionable in several of its provisions. One clause in particular, which had been introduced by a right reverend Prelate in the other House of Parliament, was so exceedingly obnoxious that he could by no means have consented to it.
The Petition was ordered to be printed.

REFORM.—PETITIONS.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition from the Council of the Birmingham Political Union respecting the late rejection of the Reform Bill. He said that this petition had been sent to his hon. and learned friend the member for Kerry, and he presented it on behalf of that hon. and learned Gentleman. He took that opportunity of expressing his opinion in favour of Political Unions. Much had been said upon the impropriety of suffering large bodies of men to assemble together for the avowed purpose of effecting a common object; but he was firmly persuaded that bodies of persons so united were highly useful, because they induced the people to seek by order, reason, and steadiness of purpose, that which might otherwise be sought by riot, violence, and bloodshed. If there had been a Political Union in Derby, or in Nottingham, the riots which had disgraced those places never would have taken place. In that respect, the conduct of the Political Union at Birmingham deserved the approbation of that House. In that town, though the feeling was as strong as in any other part of the empire, not the slightest tumult had occurred. The petitioners

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thought, that if this measure was not carried now—legally and by the existing authorities—a larger measure would ultimately be carried by popular force. They expressed their hope that that House would address his Majesty, entreating him to create 100 new Peers, with a view to carry the measure. They remarked, that the House of Peers had rejected the Bill, and that the House of Commons had pledged themselves to support the measure, in consequence of which the two Houses were in opposition to each other; and that it was not possible that that state of things should continue for any length of time without the country being plunged into utter and irretrievable ruin. With the feeling of regret expressed by the Petitioners he most fully concurred, but he at once admitted that he did not agree with that part of the prayer which desired that House to address his Majesty to create an additional number of Peers; and he did so, because he thought that such a measure at this moment would be quite unnecessary; for he had little doubt that their Lordships would see the feeling of the country was so strongly declared in favour of the measure, that they would not hesitate to adopt it. The petitioners also expressed their hope that the Parliament would speedily be dissolved, and a new one chosen on the principle of the late Bill.
Mr. Huntsaid, it was rather odd that the hon. member for Middlesex, in presenting a Petition, should denounce the prayer of it. He could bear testimony to the respectability of many members of the Birmingham Union, and he found it necessary to say this, because the remarks he had before made regarding that Union had been grossly misrepresented. He had been charged with desiring to have it put down. All that he had done, which had given rise to such scandalous misrepresentation, was, to contrast the conduct of the present Government, when the members of the Birmingham Political Union had held up their hands against the payment of taxes, with that of the Government of the day when a similar proceeding took place at Manchester. In that instance the people were cut down by the Yeomanry. At Birmingham the Union received the approbation of Government. He believed, however, the members of the Birmingham Union were not fairly treated in this petition of their council, because
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he knew they desired the Vote by Ballot and Annual Parliaments. He wished to recommend a resolution passed by his constituents to the consideration of the House: it was to this effect, "We rely on your Majesty's known firmness; we implore your Majesty not to create any more Peers, but take such constitutional measures as will secure the passing of the Reform Bill, which can alone restore this country to prosperity and happiness." A similar address had been agreed to at Manchester.
Mr. Humesaid, the hon. member for Preston had misunderstood him; he did not mean to say that he disapproved of the prayer of the Petition, but that he thought it unnecessary. He now begged to move that the Petition be printed. He was ready to allow that it contained several very strong expressions but not any that made it objectionable, so far as printing it was concerned.
Sir Richard Vyvyansaid, there were two objections to the petition, which he thought would prevent its being received by the House. The first was, the manner in which the majority of the House of Lords was spoken of; and the next, the way in which the House of Commons was spoken of as pledged to a certain course, which put them in opposition to the House of Lords, and from which course it was obviously meant to be imputed they could not depart without violating their faith to the people. The petitioners stated, that they saw and felt that great and important interests were endangered by the obstinacy of one or two hundred individuals, who, by their conduct, had justly incurred the indignation of the country. Again, in another part of the petition, it was said, that from the folly and obstinacy of a numerical majority of the upper House of Parliament, a measure had been lost on which depended the happiness and prosperity of the country. He put it to the House, whether these were proper expressions for a Petition addressed to any branch of the Legislature. He wished, also, to remark on what had been said by the hon. member for Middlesex with respect to Political Unions. That hon. Member had asserted, that the only way in which the public peace could be effectually maintained was by these Political Unions. He would tell that hon. Member, that that was the way by which the public peace was overthrown. He would say, God defend this country

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from Political clubs. He would tell the hon. Member what sort, of a Parliament had been within a short time back constituted at Naples under the government of these Political clubs. He was there himself at the time, and he could speak positively as to the fact. There was a legislative body in existence, every member of which was threatened by Carbonari Clubs if he did not speak and act in a certain way. He repeated, that he hoped he should never see the time when this country would be governed by Political Unions.
Sir Francis Burdettsaid, that after the observations just made by the hon. Baronet, he could not abstain from saying a few words on the subject. He was not aware that these Political Unions were either illegal, or unconstitutional, or improper. He said this, because he was himself a member of a Political Union, and he did not think that he was laying himself open to any censure on that account. He thought that, instead of being improper, they were both justifiable and necessary: that it was absolutely necessary for the people of England to show their determination to obtain a remedy for that scandalous state of corruption which existed in the system of the election of Members of that House; and which, until within these few late years, no man had ever ventured to have the face to say was defensible in any point whatever. Who, he would ask, had been the occasion of these Political Unions? They had arisen out of the perpetual denials of that House to give the people their due share in what was called the representation of the people. That was the cause of these evils, if evils they were; and evils, in one respect, he admitted them to be; but they were attributable entirely to such persons as the hon. Baronet, and those who supported him. The present Ministry had brought in this Bill to prevent the necessity of the people taking steps of such a nature, and their object had been most unhappily defeated. But as the people were disappointed in their just expectations, were they to be kept from expressing their dissatisfaction? If the language they used was thought too strong, he could not but say that he thought it, under all the circumstances, very excusable; and that those who by their conduct had occasioned that language to be used, were the last who ought to find fault with it. Ever since he had known his countrymen, he
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believed it had always been considered their right freely to express their opinions on the whole or any branch of the Legislature. Yet now the doctrine was put forward in that House, that strong language from the people was not to be there endured. He said, on the contrary, that such a doctrine was not to be endured. The attempt to stifle the free expression of just complaints would promote all the evils which they affected to dread. Hon. Gentlemen complained of Political clubs indeed: why, had not these very Gentlemen established clubs of all kinds? They governed Ireland for years by Orange clubs. How long, too, was it thought an honour to belong to Brunswick clubs? and when the people at length insisted on a measure of Reform, and the Ministry had the honesty to bring a measure of Reform before the public, whether it met the wishes of every one man in the country he would not venture to say; and there was no man in his senses who would expect, as the hon. member for Preston seemed to do, that it should meet the wishes of all; it was at least a measure in which the interests of all men were consulted; in which men of property were conciliated, because the value of their property was for the first time considered in the system of Representation, and in which all men saw a probability of enjoying the elective franchise, and of exercising it freely and honestly; such a measure, though it might not satisfy every one man in the country, would at least satisfy all men of moderation, and all such men were united in its support—but when an honest Administration, for the first time in the history of Government, had come forward with a remedial measure of that sort, and demanded support from the people of England, it was most provoking—so provoking that it was difficult to keep language within the limits of the rules of that House, difficult to keep it within the bounds of decency and propriety, it was, he repeated, most provoking, the king having nobly set himself at the head of the Reformers, and a whole people supporting the Reform, that a few persons should be found directly opposed to it, and that, when it was rejected, those persons should expect that all the world would bow and bend to their will, and consent quietly, at their good pleasure, to give up all hope of what every honest man was convinced was necessary for the prosperity and happiness of the country.

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He defied the Government to go on without adopting such a measure. Suppose the Ministers had been silly enough to shrink from their duty to a most brave and generous Sovereign—to shrink from their duty to the public—suppose they had done this, then, even then, he would ask, if they threw up the reins of government, who would venture to take the conduct of the Government except upon the basis of this measure of Reform? It came then to this, that the opposition to this measure was a factious opposition—an opposition for the purpose of turning out the Administration. He was the more convinced of this when he saw those Gentlemen who began with opposing all attempts at Reform admit, at last, that Reform was necessary, while they threw in the way of every species of Reform all sorts of obstacle, and tried to veil their real opposition to Reform under an affected opposition to this particular measure. Why, even the Duke of Wellington himself now admitted that some Reform was necessary. A short time since it was not so with the noble Duke, and the world gave him credit at least for manliness and courage when he made the declaration. But even he had been compelled to recede from the point of absolute refusal of Reform. He found himself in a false position, and had receded from the point which he appeared at first to have taken up with the same desperate resolution with which he had taken up his position at Waterloo—a position from which he said he would not move, and which the valour of our brave countrymen, on whose rights they were now deciding, had enabled him to maintain. On that occasion his resolution was nobly justified by the courage of the men whom he then commanded; but on the present he was forced to abandon his ground. It was true he had not now the same steady troops as on that occasion; his present followers fell off from the advanced posts to which he had ordered them, but which they found to be positions that were quite untenable, and he himself was at last obliged to give up his position and effect his retreat. But what was the cause of all this? It was the strong necessity which neither he nor any other man could resist. It was clear that there was no hope for the amelioration of grievances of which the people had often complained,—but the complaints about which had hitherto been disregarded—but the adoption of this measure of Reform—and its
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adoption could only be secured by the people giving their full support to those Ministers who had so well deserved it by proposing such a measure for parliamentary adoption. Let them, then, give their confidence to the Ministry—let them show that they were convinced, as he was, that the Ministers would not abandon the duty they owed to their Sovereign and to the people. At the same time he was certain that whatever steps were adopted by persons out of the House, they were adopted, not with a view to dictate to the Ministry, but to shew the Ministry that they ought not to shrink from completing the great work they had begun, and to prove to them and to their opponents that there was nothing likely to throw the country into confusion but the rejection of this measure. Every one, however, was convinced that the measure could not be finally rejected; but every one was also convinced, that to enable the Ministers to carry it, the people must zealously give them their support. The people were well inclined to do so, for they felt how much they were indebted to the present Ministers, and that their interests required them to give Ministers their support; for they knew that the country would never be settled till this measure was adopted; and they did not despair, for, knowing the general feeling of the people, they knew that the measure could not long be resisted. And who were those who resisted it? One set of its opponents was a parcel of intriguing gentlemen at the west end of the town; and there were intriguing ladies, too, "mighty gossips in this our commonwealth," whose interference in such matters was a thing, he must say, hitherto unknown. He regretted that interference, because he thought that when ladies once got out of the domestic circle, and got into the political, they lost much of the influence they would otherwise properly possess; and he was tempted to pass upon them a similar judgment to that which Mrs. Peachum, in The Beggar's Opera, passed upon them. Mrs. Peachum said, "Women are bitter bad judges in cases of murder;" and so, he said, "Women are bitter bad judges in cases of politics." For himself he could only say, that, considering things as they now stood, he could almost wish the Kings in past times had made use of their prerogative, and had discontinued to send Writs to decayed boroughs, and had, at the same time, sent

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Writs to boroughs that had grown great and flourishing. If that prerogative had been used, that House would not have been in the situation in which it was now, but there would have been, as it were, a daily Reform, suppressing the elective franchise of inconsiderable boroughs, and transferring it to new and populous and flourishing towns. The King, no doubt, possessed the right of withholding these Writs, and of issuing them; and had that course been adopted from the beginning, there would have been a Reform of Parliament which would not have required the interference of the House of Peers. Indeed, he was almost prepared to say, that as Reform essentially concerned the privileges of that House, and the control over the public purse (a control of which, on other occasions, they were so jealous that they would not permit the other House to make the smallest alteration in their money bills—not even in a relaxation of the public burthens), it was a matter with which the other House ought not to interfere. He was sorry that the House of Lords should thus have brought themselves into a situation far from estimable, in the eyes of the country, doing themselves no good, and forcing upon the minds of the people an inquiry as to the limits of their privileges. He wished to see the Constitution preserved; he believed it was an excellent Constitution in practice; but, when it had been corrupted, it should be purified; and, therefore, he wished to see a fair and free and full representation of the people, for that was part of the Constitution; and he, therefore, did regret most deeply, that the Peers should have opposed themselves to a demand which was made by the whole people of England—namely, that a measure should be passed to secure to them their constitutional right.—the right of controlling the public purse. What did all the rant about Jacobinism and revolution mean—what did it come to but this—that those who ranted thus wished still to exclude the people from the right he had referred to—the right which they now sought with so much anxiety? In what was passing out of doors he saw nothing to alarm men, except they went on exasperating the public by delay and refusal, till the public would no longer be satisfied with this just, rational, and effective measure, but would be determined to have more than their warmest friends now called on the opposite party to grant. They
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must all recollect the play of Henry IV., when Hotspur, Owen Glendower, and others, were engaged in portioning out England. In that scene, Glendower had taken the Trent for the limit of his portion; and Hotspur, thinking it would trench too much upon his portion, said—
"I'll have the current in this place damm'd up;
It shall not wind with such a deep indent,
To rob me of so rich a bottom here."
Glendower, of course, objected, and words ran high between them; Hotspur was told he should not anger Owen Glendower, for Glendower was a friend; on which Hotspur, with true English feeling exclaimed—
"——I'll give thrice so much land
To any well-deserving friend,
But in the way of bargain, mark ye me,
I'll cavil on the ninth part of a hair."
So said the people of England at this moment. They would recede much if they were satisfied that they should get what they wanted, and what they had a right to ask, namely, a practical control over the public expenditure; but if that were refused them—if friendliness was dropped, and the matter became one of bargain, they would "cavil about the ninth part of a hair." In his opinion, his Majesty's Ministers deserved the confidence of the country; and he was anxious to impress that on the country, for they had given an earnest of their honest intentions, and confidence in them would enable them to follow out what they had thus begun, while a different course would but impede them in carrying into execution the plan of Reform they had laid before the country. He knew it might be said that the people were properly jealous of bestowing their unlimited confidence; but if it was unwise to give the Government their confidence lest they might be betrayed, was it not equally unwise to withhold their confidence when they had good grounds for yielding it? In the conduct of all matters confidence was necessary. In this instance it had been given, and it should not now be withdrawn. What greater claim to confidence could be put forward by any Ministry than was put forward by the present in this one measure? What they proposed was a voluntary act of theirs—they had embarked themselves in the same boat, in the same vessel, with the liberties of their country, and they had identified their interests with those of the people. They were in the same situation as the Roman army which

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went out to conquer their neighbours, the Samnites. The Roman Consul, who had determined not to retreat, placed his army in such a position, that it was impossible for the army to escape from a victorious enemy, and they had, therefore, no alternative but to conquer. The Roman Consul, in his speech to his soldiers, told them, that the contest would be desperate—that they would have to combat an enemy equally numerous, equally well disciplined, equally provided with arms, and equally full of courage with themselves; but he added, that they had one advantage—quod maxima et ultima erant necessitate superiori. That was the situation of the Ministers—by necessity alone they would be compelled to be victorious; they were to fall or stand by this measure; and they were sure of victory, for they were sure of the public support, and with that support they could not fail. He trusted that they would not be pressed in any way to promise a particular line of conduct. He trusted that his Majesty and his Majesty's Ministers would be enabled to relieve the country from those difficulties in which for a century past it had been involved, and that they would succeed in procuring for the country that representation, without which it was in vain to hope for good government—without which a good Government could not go on, and which alone would be able to secure the public tranquillity and happiness.
Mr. Goulburnwas surprised at the course which the hon. Baronet had taken on this occasion. He would not, however, follow him in his very excursive speech. It was a speech which would almost make the House believe it had been intended for another occasion, but that, by some accident or other, the hon. Baronet had missed the opportunity of delivering it, and was therefore anxious, as he seemed to think it so good an oration, that the House should not separate without having had the benefit of hearing it. He would not presume to inquire whether the hon. Baronet was smarting under the witicisms of that sex he had so ungallantly alluded to, but he would confine himself simply to the question before the House, and he would contend that there would be an end to the freedom of debate, if the conduct of Members in either House were to be attacked as that of the majority of the House of Lords had been in the petition
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before them. Would the House, he asked, give its sanction, by causing it to be printed, to such language as this—"that the interests of the country were sacrificed or endangered by the selfish obstinacy of 200 individuals?" And that no doubt might apply to whom it alluded, this paragraph followed, "by the folly and obstinacy of a numerical majority in the House of Lords." Was this language which the House would sanction as applying to the majority of the other House of Parliament? He would put it to the noble Lord at the head of the Government in that House, whether he would consent to the printing of a petition containing such an attack on the other House of Parliament?
Lord Althorpdid not think that the wording of petitions from the people in times of great excitement ought to be too strictly looked at. If the hon. Baronet opposite meant to ask him, did he approve of the language of the petition? He was perfectly ready to say he did not. It was language such as he hoped he never approached to himself, and such as he was sure could be of no sort of use in the discussion of political questions. But if the hon. Baronet asked him, did he think that the petition ought to be received in the ordinary manner in which petitions upon important subjects were received, and should be permitted to be printed? That, he would answer, was altogether a question of expediency. The expressions to which the hon. Baronet objected related to the particular conduct of noble individuals in the other House of Parliament; and he had known the House to receive and to print petitions animadverting, in very strong terms, not only on individuals in either House of Parliament, but upon the conduct of the whole Legislature. He, therefore, did not think that the House would do wisely in negativing the Motion of his hon. friend. But in giving that opinion, he hoped he should not be supposed to agree in or to sanction the language of the petitioners.
Mr. Kennedysaid, he must enter his protest against the doctrine of appealing to Ministers as members of the Government on questions like the present. They ought to give their opinions only as individual Members of the House in matters which were not connected with the policy of their Government. As to the question before them, he must say, that if hon.

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Gentlemen opposite knew the state of feeling in the country, they would rather feel pleasure than regret that it vented itself in this harmless way. If petitions of this kind were rejected on account of strong language, depend on it the people would press round the throne and give expression to opinions much stronger. In fact, the petitions which had been presented by the people, proved the complete tranquillity of the country; and that it was, he believed, at which hon. Gentlemen opposite were so much disappointed. The country was, however, he was happy to say, perfectly tranquil. He could speak more particularly of that part of the kingdom with which he was more immediately connected (Scotland); but he would not say that that tranquillity would be permanent, it the measure of Reform were unnecessarily delayed—ultimately refused it could not be—but he could not look without serious apprehension at the consequences of any unnecessary delay.
Mr. George Bankessaid, he must repel with indignation the imputation of the hon. Member who last addressed the House, that Members at that (the Opposition) side were, disappointed at the tranquil state of the country, They had never expected that the country would be otherwise than tranquil, and therefore the tranquillity which now prevailed was not matter of surprise, still less of disappointment, to them. They objected to such language as this petition contained, because they expected that bodies who wished to be considered deliberative assemblies would use more caution than men who met only for one occasion. The hon. Baronet had adverted to the Orange and Brunswick clubs, which he assumed were founded on the principles of the Members on the Opposition side of the House; but, what would the hon. Baronet say, if petitions were presented from any of those clubs, complaining of the selfish obstinacy of Lord Grey and his colleagues, in sacrificing or endangering the interests of the country, by persisting in a violent change of the Constitution? Would the hon. Baronet think that the House ought to sanction language of that kind by ordering the petition to be printed? He had no desire to reject the petitions of any portion of the people, but he did desire that the petitions should be worded in respectful language. The question now before the House was, not whether the
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petition should be rejected, for no one had any such wish, but whether the House would so far sanction the language which the noble Lord (Althorp) had declared he disapproved, as to direct it to be printed. There were many parts of the hon. Baronet's speech which he regretted, but he concurred with him in that where he put forth the prerogatives of the Crown so prominently. He was glad, also, to hear him speak of the Sovereign as the father of his people; but it did sometimes happen, that the fondest fathers mistook the passions of their children, and indulged those passions to the prejudice of their real interests.
Mr. James Johnstonscongratulated the House on the state of tranquillity which prevailed in that part of the empire (Scotland) to which he belonged. He did not think that the hon. Baronet, opposite did right in sneering at the Political Unions. He begged to remind the hon. Baronet that peace had been preserved in those places where Political Unions were established, and that riots and conflagrations had taken place in those parts of the country where there existed no Political Unions—Nottingham and Derby, for instance. 150 years ago, the people were little better than serfs, and were treated nearly the same as slaves were now treated in the West Indies, but the spread of intelligence had given them a moral strength which entitled them to a large increase of influence in the Constitution. He thought that the sooner the House met after the prorogation the better; and he believed that if the present Ministers were to leave office the whole country would be on fire.
Mr. Huntsaid, the hon. Member who had just sat down, had made use of stronger expressions than was contained in any petition, but he merely wished to remark, in reply to the hon. Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) opposite, who had said no person out, of Bedlam could expect the people to be wholly unanimous in favour of Reform, that he (Mr. Hunt) believed they were nearly unanimous, but it was for a more extensive measure of Reform than the late Bill. The hon. Baronet had also been pleased to insinuate, that those who would not receive the franchise under the Bill, would still receive some benefit from its being extended; why this sounded very like virtual representation. He must declare that the Ministers were not entitled to his confidence, although he hoped he

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should not be called a Tory for this opinion. He hoped the petition would be printed, as he considered the people of Birmingham had as much right to petition for a large creation of Peers, as the people of Preston had to petition against such a creation.
Sir Richard Vyvyan, in explanation, stated, that he would rather see riots in some parts of the country, than have the peace kept by means of unions, which were only instruments in the hands of demagogues.
Petition to be printed.

CHOLERA MORBUS.
Sir Richard Vyvyanbegged to ask the right hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, whether any communications had been received from the Board of Health relating to the quarantine establishment? That Board was composed of persons illustrious for their knowledge and acquirements, but he feared their time was too much occupied by their own avocations, to allow them sufficient leisure to attend to the progress of that dreadful disease which was daily approaching nearer to us.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonstated, that the Board of Health had devoted a great deal of attention to the subject of the Cholera Morbus, and he believed that their labours would be found beneficial to the country. The Board had received instructions to draw up a statement of the precautions most proper to be employed, in order to prevent the approach of the disease, and that statement would be published in the Gazette, and circulated through every town and village along the shore opposite infected places. He hoped that gentlemen who resided along the southern and eastern coast, but particularly the latter, would endeavour, by every means in their power, to explain to the poor people, who are usually engaged in smuggling transactions, the dreadful risk to which they exposed the whole community, and themselves in particular.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that he should have been better satisfied to have heard from the right hon. Gentleman, that Government had themselves adopted the most effectual means for preventing surreptitious intercourse with the countries where the disease was raging. He thought that some commercial men might be added to the Board of Health with great advantage.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonthought that all intercourse ought, at whatever risk, to be suspended between this country and Hamburgh. With respect to the Board of Health, he hoped that some of the members of that board would be persons who had possessed opportunities of witnessing the progress of the disease in foreign countries. There were many individuals in this country who had witnessed the progress of the Cholera in India. Amongst this number was Dr. Russell, who had been despatched to St. Petersburg to obtain information respecting that formidable disease. He understood that Dr. Russell had returned to this country, and if that were the case, he hoped that his talents and experience would be put in requisition.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonbegged to assure the House that Government had already made every exertion in its power to prevent smuggling with the places where the Cholera was raging. Fresh hands had been employed along the coast where they had been found necessary. The Board of Health was composed of medical men, and other persons best qualified for the task which they would have to execute. Dr. Russell had not yet returned to this country. When he should return he would be added to the Board.
Mr. George Robinsonbegged to direct the attention of Ministers to the fact, that the number of deaths varied considerably in different places. He thought the Board ought to endeavour to ascertain whether this variation was attributable to difference of treatment, or to different local circumstances.
Mr. Leadersaid, the introduction of such a disease into Ireland, must be looked at with the greatest apprehensions, for it would prove especially dangerous to a population already in a morbid state.
Mr. Humethought that this was a matter of the highest importance. A board should be constituted in which some of the members could devote their whole time and attention to the duties of it. He would much rather have a board composed of quarter-masters, who were accustomed to organization, and would devote their whole time to the public service, than of medical men. He thought that all our spare cruisers should be employed in stopping the contraband trade. As to expense it was quite out of the question in an affair of such moment.

RE-ASSEMBLING OF PARLIAMENT.
Colonel Evans Colonel Evans rose pursuant to notice which he had given of a Resolution respecting the approaching Prorogation of Parliament. It had been said, that the members of his Majesty's Government required repose: it had also been said, that the Members of that House had some claim to repose; but he would tell them that the country required repose, and that nothing excepting a short Prorogation, the speedy assemblage of Parliament, and a settlement of the Reform question could give that repose to which the country was entitled. Under all ordinary circumstances he should, of course, not urge the re-assembling of Parliament before the usual time; but, under the present aspect of public affairs, he certainly should have deemed his Motion not improper, had he not heard from authority, on which he placed the fullest, reliance, that the meeting of Parliament would not be postponed beyond the first week in December. He certainly had not received this communication officially, but he had it from authority in which he reposed the most entire confidence, and he, therefore, did not at that moment think himself warranted in pressing his Motion. The deepest anxiety prevailed upon the subject—an anxiety increased by the constitutional anomaly of the differences subsisting between two branches of the Legislature. It was, therefore, with great satisfaction he found himself enabled to state, from a source on which he had full reliance, that Parliament would meet as soon as possible.
Lord Althorpthought it necessary to say one or two words. The hon. Member had stated, that he had heard, but not officially, that Parliament, would re-assemble in the first week in December. On that subject he (Lord Althorp) had not any statement to make. He should not feel himself justified, as a Minister, in making any statement. He hoped that all who felt anxious on the subject would do the Ministers the justice to believe that none could feel more anxious than they did for the settlement of that great question which now occupied all men's minds; and he trusted that the House and the country would place that confidence in Ministers which they had done nothing to forfeit. He hoped the country would recollect this—that the Ministers were entitled to credit for a sincere wish to bring the contemplated measure of Reform to a successful
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issue. He was enabled certainly to say, that the prorogation would be of that length which was found most conducive to the success of the great measure of Parliamentary Reform. Ministers were pledged to that measure, or to one fully as efficient. Their labours were anxiously devoted to that end, and they would adhere strictly to those means most calculated to ensure that end.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonwas glad that the hon. Member had withdrawn his Motion. It would be inconsistent with the vote of confidence in Ministers which had been so recently agreed to.
Mr. Ruthvensaid, he would rather place full confidence in the discretion and good faith of his Majesty's Ministers than agree to any such Motion as that of which the hon. and gallant Member had given notice. He hoped and trusted the country would feel no suspicion or mistrust of the Ministers. The assurance they had now received, ought to satisfy every reasonable friend of Reform.
Motion withdrawn.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time and passsed; Crown Lands; Inclosure; (Standing Orders suspended).
Petitions presented. By two NOBLE LORDS, from the Catholic Inhabitants of Moycullen for the Extension of the Galway Franchise to Catholics, and from the Inhabitants of Silverston, in favour of the Reform Bill.

COAL TRADE.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that he had learnt that a conversation had taken place in their Lordships' House a few days ago, upon the third reading of the Appropriation Bill, in which a noble friend of his had taken occasion to say something with respect to the operation of the recent removal of the Coal duties. His noble friend had complained that the result of the measure of removing the duties was, to occasion a very considerable loss to the revenue, without any corresponding benefit to the consumer. He stated that the price of coals to the consumer was only 2s. less, and that the difference between that and the 6s. of duty removed must go into some other pockets. He (Lord Wharncliffe) was anxious that the coal-owners should stand clear with the

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public, and he could assure the House, that if the public did not benefit to the full extent of the duties removed, the coal-owners were by no means benefitted by the difference, which had not gone into their pockets. The prices of coals at Newcastle and Sunderland were precisely the same now as they were before the duties were removed; and in point of fact, the coal-owners were losers instead of gainers. When the tax was taken off, the stock in London was extremely low, in consequence of the anticipation generally entertained that the tax would be reduced. The coal-owners continued to supply the market as usual for a few weeks, when the workmen at the pits seeing a favourable opportunity, struck for an increase of wages, and they kept the pits for seven weeks unworked; so that coals were actually imported into Newcastle in order to keep the different steam-engines at work. This had ended in an increase of wages to the amount of from ten to fourteen per cent, and as the price of coals had not increased, the coal-owners were consequently losers to this extent. In addition to this, the workmen by an agreement among themselves, would not work beyond earning a certain sum a day. This state of things was brought on undoubtedly from one of those combinations among the operatives, which caused increased difficulties every day, in carrying on any kind of trade in this country. The result of this combination among the colliers was, that the coal-owners could not supply the markets to the extent of making up their losses sustained by the increase of wages. He would only add, that if the workmen were allowed to proceed as they at present occasionally did, it would strike at the prosperity of the manufactures and commerce of the country. The coal-owners, it was to be feared, would not be able to supply the markets adequately with coals until next spring, if they had to contend with such combinations; but their inclinations and their interest both induced them to furnish an ample supply, as the reduction of price ought to cause an increased consumption which the coal-owners were anxious to meet. He should move, "that there be laid before the House a return of the prices in the London markets of seaborne coals, from the 1st of February to the 17th of October, 1831.
The Earl of Falmouthhad understood
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the noble Duke to have said, that the public had not derived the full advantage of taking off the duties, but he had not understood the noble Duke to say by whom the benefit had been reaped, although the presumption was, that it was the coal-owners.
Motion agreed to.

BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL.
The Lord Chancellor, in moving their Lordships to agree to the Amendments which the Bankruptcy Court Bill had received in the other House, felt it his duty to state to their Lordships what those Amendments were. The first was, the disqualifying of the Judges of the Court from sitting in Parliament, and this he should say was merely supplying what had been an inadvertence in their Lordships' House. There were one or two alterations in the Bill which were of little consequence, but he should open to their Lordships what were the main alterations which had been made in the Bill. The machinery for compensating persons who were to lose by the Bill, was perfectly satisfactory to those who, like Lord Thurlow, were concerned in it, and their Lordships could have no objection to this clause as it now stood. He would merely observe, that no compensation was in any case to be given in the lump, but only according to the claims of each individual. The only material alteration which the Bill had undergone, he would now explain to the House. He had stated in the first instance, that the Judges of the Court were to have retiring pensions after twenty years' service. They were now to have no pensions, and it was in his opinion that it was not necessary to give learned persons in such places retiring pensions. If a man at the Bar received his employment by the year, he had a precarious income, and was subject to various accidents. He might lose his health, become old, or might lose his business, without any fault of his, and he must be exposed to every accident, physical and moral, and to all the changes which those who followed the profession of the law so well knew themselves to be liable to. For these reasons every man of prudence made provision for his family, and when he came upon the Bench he was generally possessed of a considerable fortune. He would ask, why should not the Judges make provision for their families, either by laying up money, or by means of

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that most excellent invention of life-assurance? Why should not a man with a fixed income insure his life as well as a man who possessed a precarious income? In the case of a Judge, he could not see that there was any necessity for a retiring pension. If it should be found that the effect of this doctrine would be to prevent the getting of the assistance of men of sufficient ability and experience from the Bar, or if it should make men adhere pertinaciously to the gains of office after they were unfit for the adequate performance of their duties, then it would be fit that their Lordships should again send the Bill to the other House of Parliament; or rather, as this was a money clause, it would be fit that the other House should of itself revise this clause. He had to move that the Amendments be agreed to.—Ordered accordingly.

EXCHEQUER COURT—(SCOTLAND.)
The Duke of Buccleuchwished to know if the noble and learned Lord would lay upon the Table of the House the returns for which he had moved, relative to the Exchequer Court of Scotland, they were, "An account of the number of cases in the Court of Exchequer in Scotland, distinguishing undefended causes, causes tried, defended causes tried, and causes compromised without any trial, for the last five years, distinguishing each year.
The Lord Chancellorhad no objection whatever to lay the papers upon the Table of the House. He should take the opportunity of his being upon his legs to advert to an observation which had been made relative to the amendment of the Bankrupt-laws themselves. A Commission had been sitting during the whole of the last twelve months, and learned Commissioners had been added to it, in lieu of those who had been promoted to the Bench. The Commissioners had entered into the most important questions of law—such as the law of debtor and creditor and the great subject of imprisonment for debt. They had collected a vast mass of the most important information from persons experienced both in law and in trade, and they had examined between 300 and 400 persons, so that they would be able to make a Report which would be the foundation of some of the most salutary alterations which ever were made upon such great and important subjects. He had been asked whether he intended to abandon the plan
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of local jurisdictions—the plan of making justice more cheap and more accessible to all men. He would answer, that he intended to adopt the salutary suggestions of the present Chief Baron, and to submit to the Commissioners of Legal Inquiry the whole question of those local courts for the purpose of its undergoing the most thorough investigation. In six months or less, a very important Report would be made from the Commissioners upon the subject of the local court jurisdiction.
The Earl of Hardwickebegged to ask his noble and learned Lord, whether it was his intention to make any improvement in the laws respecting creditors who avoided the payment of their just debts by leaving the country, and residing abroad. He now knew a person who resided at Boulogne for this purpose, though he regularly received an income of 800 l. a quarter, from his property in this kingdom.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the subject which the noble Earl had mentioned was one of the very highest importance, and it had received a due consideration from the Commissioners of Law Inquiry. It would be a very imperfect arrangement which did not provide for cases such as the noble Earl had mentioned. He (the Lord Chancellor) abstained from stating the principles upon which the Commissioners had proceeded; but he would say, that a more shameful, scandalous state of the law could not possibly exist, than that of which persons could avail themselves by going abroad, or living within the rules of the King's Bench, and thereby avoid the payment of their debts. He himself knew a man of 8,000 l. a-year who lived in the rules in order to avoid his creditors. The expenses of law proceedings, those of the Insolvent Court, the discharge of prisoners, the expenses of debtors while in gaol, and those of collecting debts, amounted altogether to 600,000 l. a-year, and all this was abstracted from the funds of the creditors. In addition to this the sum of 116,000 l. a-year was spent in justifying bail. If the Report of the Commission of Law Inquiry was attended to, this sum of between 700,000 l. and 800,000 l. a-year would be thus swept away from such a useless direction, and added to the fund for the payment of creditors.
Viscount Melvillewished to take that opportunity of making an observation or two on the Court of Exchequer in Scotland. The reason why so small a number of cases

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were decided in that Court was, the system adopted of trying such causes in inferior Courts where it was usual to compound for penalties: when prosecutions were instituted, the defenders were induced to enter into compositions, and to pay a composition for the penalties, in order to save expenses. That was the cause of so little business being done in the Court of Exchequer. That power of compounding was one which ought not to be intrusted to an inferior Court, but ought to be under the control of the highest law officers of the Crown. That was a system which had grown up of late years.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, the same system of compromise in revenue causes prevailed very much in the Court of Exchequer here also. The Crown neither gave nor received costs; and it was often thought adviseable to compromise. The revenue causes occupied but a very small portion comparatively of the English Court of Exchequer, the Judges of which tried other causes, and went the circuits. The Scotch Court, on the contrary, was entirely confined to revenue causes. The returns called for by the noble Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch) extended only to the number of causes tried in the Scotch Court of Exchequer in each year during the last five years. If the noble Duke pleased, this might be extended to twenty years.
The Duke of Buccleuchsaid, he should be happy to attend to the suggestions of the noble and learned Lord.
A return was accordingly ordered of the number of causes tried in the Scotch Court of Exchequer in each year during the last twenty years, distinguishing between those compromised and those not compromised.