Sitting of 14 October 1831

MINUTES.
New Writs; ordered. For Tavistock, in the room of Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
New Member sworn. HON. DONALD OGILVIE, for Forfarshire.
Bills. Read a third time; Distillation (Ireland.) Read a first time; Prescription and Tithe Composition.
Petition presented. By Mr. WILKS, from the Members of the Provident Society, Corsham, for the Amendment of the Friendly Societies Act.

PILGRIM TAX—INDIA.
Mr. Wilkspresented a Petition from the Rector and other respectable Inhabitants of Stafford, praying for the abolition of the Pilgrim Tax in India, and that the hereditary estates of Hindoos might not be forfeited by their conversion to Christianity.
Mr. John Campbellbegged leave to support the prayer of the petition. He was anxious to see the Christian religion extended throughout the world, but he at the same time thought, that the religion of our fellow-subjects in India ought to be as little as possible interfered with. He had never understood that Hindoos lost their estates on changing their religion.
Sir John Malcolmsaid, he fully concurred in the prayer of the petition, but he entreated the House to be cautious how they dealt with such kind of petitions. At the present moment when education was generally diffused throughout India, and the language of this country extensively understood, such petitions attracted much attention, and the consequences of their being discussed in that House were likely to be more important, than hon. Members calculated on.
Mr. Wilkssaid, he could have no desire whatever to cause excitement in India, where the British empire depended almost wholly on the influence of opinion. At the same time there was a great distinction between tolerating the religions of the country, and sanctioning a custom by which pilgrim fanciers collected together a number of unhappy devotees from districts of the country, and received a sum of money for each.
Sir Charles ForbesSaid, the petition just presented referred to a practice of great importance, and the collection of revenue from such a source was extremely objectionable.
Mr. Cutlar Fergussonobserved, that the petition slated, that the Hindoos lost their inheritance on being converted to Christianity, but he could declare, that, there was no one instance of a native being deprived of ins inheritance from such a cause, and he would further affirm, that there was not a Court within the provinces

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ruled by the East-India Company which would enforce such a law.
Mr. Astellremarked, that any discussion on such a question could not advance the object of the petitioners. He believed that object could be best obtained by avoiding all angry discussion.
Mr. James E. Gordonsaid, he thought the connection of British authorities with the ceremonies of Pagan Idolatry involved a dereliction of Christian principles on the part of the Anglo-Indian government, which was at once a reflection on the nation, and a proof that it was not sincere in professions of Christianity. He entirely agreed with the petitioners, that the management of Pagan Temples ought to be left to Pagans themselves, and that all sanction of idolatrous ceremonies should be withheld by a Christian Government.
Petition to be printed.

THE CANADAS.
Mr. Laboucherepresented a Petition from the Commons of Lower Canada, in Provincial Parliament assembled, praying for the repeal of the Act, 6th George 4th, providing for the extension of feudal and seigniorial rights and bur then son land in the said province. As the House had already taken measures to obviate the evils which had resulted from that Act, he only presented this petition to call the attention of the House to a most striking instance of the mischiefs which might be inflicted on a colony by misinformed and hasty legislation. The evils resulting from the Act had been repaired so far as the power of the House extended, but property to a large extent had been lost and sacrificed by the consequences resulting from that Act.
Petition to be printed.
Mr. Laboucherehad to present another Petition from the House of Assembly of Lower Canada, which was agreed to unanimously, and comprised a long list of grievances, from which they prayed redress from the House of Commons. He would not fatigue the House by going through these grievances at large, which it was not likely many hon. Gentlemen would comprehend or pay attention to; but from this very circumstance he derived the strong argument, and which also was the prayer of the petition, that it was most advisable to meet the evils effectually of which the petitioners complained, by enabling the colonies to manage their own concerns in their own way, so that the colonial
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Legislators could redress the grievances of their constituents without being compelled to come to this country for the purpose. This would be going at once to the root of the evil, for it was plainly impossible the present state of affairs could long remain, as the House of Assembly of Canada, although unanimous on the subject of these grievances, did not possess the power to remedy them. The principal complaints contained in the petition, related to the Legislative Councils, which the petitioners affirm are composed in such a manner as to be wholly detached from the rest of the colony, being connected with it by no ties of property, of birth or affection. The petitioners also complained of the judicial system, but he was happy to say, this part of the complaint was in part remedied by disconnecting the Judges from political affairs. The petitioners also complained of the clergy preserves of land, and the alienation of lands belonging to the Jesuits College at Montreal. He adverted to these specific complaints to show how necessary it was that the colonies should manage their own affairs, and he entreated the House to consider whether the time had not arrived when the whole system of colonization ought to be thoroughly investigated, and the connection between them and the mother country established on a more liberal footing, while means were taken to improve the institutions of the colonies themselves. By some measures of this kind they might, perhaps, put an end to those feelings of irritation which had so long existed in the minds of the colonists. He firmly believed this could be done, and that the inhabitants of the Canadas, who now amounted to 1,000,000 souls, might enjoy as much happiness under the sway of the British monarchy as could be enjoyed by the citizens of any State of the world. But to attain this great end it was necessary that the institutions of the colonies should be adapted to the slate of society existing therein. There were no materials out of which to raise an aristocracy in the Canadas; there were no great and wealthy landed proprietors; the inhabitants were all of nearly equal property and perfectly of equal rights; from this foundation he and they considered that the British Constitution, as divided into three branches, was not applicable to their peculiar situation. He begged distinctly to declare, however, that he was firmly attached to that

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Constitution as it existed here, but what he meant to say was, that there were certain communities in which the materials for the gradations of ranks on which its foundations rested were not to be met with, and he considered the Canadas in that situation. To prove that these sentiments were correct, he would state the fact, that in British North America, out of 1,000,000 inhabitants, there were 200,000 landed proprietors; a greater number in proportion to the population than existed in any other part of the world. The institutions of any country must be so regulated, if good government was to be the result, that they must meet the wants, and be applicable to the habits of the people living under them. The House must not, therefore, be scared by the phantom of democracy, when there were no materials to set up the substance of an aristocracy. If an attempt was made to create one, it could only end in an odious oligarchy. He had the high authority of Mr. Pitt for saying, that no materials for an aristocracy existed in the Canadas, and though a real aristocracy was a blessing, yet a sham one, having no root in the soil or property of the country, was the greatest curse that could be fastened upon a community which had no sympathy with such an institution. He was, therefore, fully convinced, that our only permanent chance of going on well with the colonies was, to put the Legislative Councils on a different footing, and introduce the principle of election into them. This was the form of the constitution of our old American colonies, which enjoyed the most popular institutions in the world. He had always resisted the application of principles drawn from the United States, when applied to England, from the very different circumstances and habits of the two countries, but it was equally wrong to assert, that because in England, from the gradations of ranks and privileges, and the state of society, it was impossible to revert wholly to the popular principle, that therefore that principle must not be resorted to in our colonies where the materials and construction of society were so wholly different, He was bound in justice to declare, that the colonies had been treated in the most kind and considerate manner by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Murray) who lately presided over the colonial department, and that his system had been followed up with great activity by the
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noble Lord who had succeeded him. The colonists made no complaints against their governors, as connected with their present institutions, but they complained that these institutions required amendment. The colonists expressed no distrust in the administration of the colonial department in this country, and he was certain their confidence was retained, and with that view he would conclude by entreating his noble friend, at the head of that department, not to attempt to trifle or neglect this great question, but to look forthwith into the whole state of the British colonies with an earnest desire to redress their grievances and improve their institutions. As he understood his hon. friend, the member for Middlesex, had a petition to present from the other province of Canada, on the subject of the clergy reserves, he would take the present opportunity to declare, that it was absolutely necessary for the peace of the colonies, that an end should be put to the pretensions of the Church of England, and a perfect religious equality established. He was a friend to that Church in this country, where the majority of the people professed its doctrines, but the case was different in the Canadas, and it was perfect madness to attempt to build up an Established Church there. The sooner the attempt was abandoned the better.
Viscount Howicksaid, he entirely agreed with his hon. friend, that a petition coming unanimously from the House of Assembly of Lower Canada was entitled to the best consideration and attention of that House. He also concurred with his hon. friend, that the Colonial Legislatures ought to be intrusted with the internal management of the affairs of their respective colonies, and that it was for the interest of all parties that every means should be adopted, which could tend towards increasing the happiness, wealth, and commerce of the colonists. These were the principles which he had always advocated, and they were, he was happy to say, the principles which guided the Administration of which he formed so humble a part. The only case in which the House had been called upon to legislate with regard to Canada, since the accession of the present Ministry to office, was, with respect to two Acts which were brought in for the sole purpose of removing technical difficulties. The latter of the two was an Act to enable his Majesty to consent to an Act of the local

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Legislature, for regulating the financial affairs of the colony. With respect to the complaints of the petitioners, his hon. friend had admitted, that the judicial system had been improved. The first object of every Government ought to be, the impartial administration of justice; and to obtain which, it was necessary that those who were to dispense it should be wholly independent of the executive power. Such an independence had been completely effected by the present Government. An Act had passed the Colonial Legislature, at the recommendation of the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, by which a permanent salary was established for the judicial officers, and their situations were made to depend wholly upon good behaviour, similar to the Judges in this country, who were wholly independent of the Crown. They were not to exercise any political authority whatever except the Chief Judge, who was to be a member of the Council, because it was desirable to have a member competent to give legal opinions if that was found necessary. With respect to the appropriation of the estate attached to the Jesuits' College, that estate had never been diverted from its original purposes of education, and, in future, it was to be exclusively devoted to these purposes, under the superintendence of the local assembly. Passing by other matters of detail which were in course of being remedied, he would beg to add a few words on the subject of waste lands, and the method by which they had hitherto been managed. He had no scruple in declaring his opinion, that an improved system could be devised, but he must add, that the fault of this arrangement did not wholly rest with the Government, but was to be ascribed to the incorrect notions entertained as to the best manner of disposing of this species of property. These incorrect notions were also shared by the local assemblies. So long as free grants of land were made, he believed it to be impossible but that some abuses must exist, and the only effectual remedy was an improvement in the system of making grants. The only other question with which he would trouble the House regarded the composition of the legislative bodies. He was free to admit, that the legislative council was not formed in the most unexceptionable manner, but how it was to be improved was a question of great
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importance, which he would not go into. He was enabled, however, to state, that means had been taken to render the appointments to it more popular, and to gratify the people. He trusted these measures would be sufficient, combined with other alterations which were in progress, to remedy the defects which he allowed existed in the present constitution of the Assemblies. If experience should prove that, these alterations were not sufficient, there would be no serious indisposition on the part of Government to consider whether the council ought not only to be increased in number, but that some modification of the principle of its appointment should prevail. He trusted, this short explanation would be satisfactory to the House and to his hon. friend, for he would declare, in conclusion, that the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department had distinctly recognized the principle, that the local Legislatures of the Canadas were the best judges of the principles to be adopted in the government of that country, and of all matters connected with its internal economy.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, the noble Lord had dealt largely in profession, but that was one of the serious complaints of the colonists, that the endeavours to remedy these grievances never went any further. On nearly the last day of the Session, they began to discuss affairs of vast importance to the colonies, when it was evident no useful amelioration of their condition could be expected. Since the report of the Committee of 1828, which contained a vast body of useful informtaion, little or nothing had been practically done for the improvement of the Canadas. It was wholly impossible for the local Legislature to touch many of the grievances. The clergy reserves, for instance, were appropriated under an Act of Parliament, and therefore one of the most crying evils could not be lessened by the local authorities, in the smallest degree. With respect to the legislative council, he very much doubted whether the degree of popular feeling infused into it in the manner prescribed by the noble Lord, would be sufficient to make it work well. He fully agreed with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), that it was an absurdity to attempt to adhere to the forms of the British Constitution in the government of the Canadas. He did not mean to doubt the good intentions of the

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noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, and of those connected with that department, but he should really be better satisfied if they professed less and did more.
Mr. James E. Gordonsaid, he felt called upon to make a few observations upon one subject, which the hon. Member who presented the petition introduced at the close of his speech. He understood, that the hon. Gentleman recommended the establishment of a religious equality in the Canadas. If, by that sentiment, he meant an equal freedom and protection in the worship of the Almighty to all sects and parties, he fully agreed with him; but if he meant the equal support of all sects, he protested against such a doctrine. He could by no means understand on what principle a Protestant State should equalize religion on such terms in its colonies. If any hon. Gentleman considered that the Church of England should be disconnected from the State, let him bring forward a proposition to accomplish his purpose, and he for one would be ready to meet him; but while the Church establishment was part and parcel of the law of the land, he could not, comprehend upon what principle hon. Gentlemen indulged themselves in talking of the equalization of religion. The hon. Member said, he supported the Church of England in this country simply because it was the religion of the great majority of the people, without, as it appeared, caring for the truth or principle of it. From such latitudinarian opinions he entirely dissented. He supported the Church because he approved of its doctrines, and thought it an important part of the Constitution. He must also protest, against being supposed to acquiesce in the opinion, that our religions establishments in Canada were more extensive than necessary. To apply a commercial phrase to things of more importance, he believed the supply was not more than equal to the demand.
Sir James Mackintoshhad listened, with great satisfaction, to the sentiments of the hon. Member who had introduced the petition, and with no less satisfaction had he heard the reply of his noble friend. In most of the opinions advanced in the course of the discussion he agreed, with the exception of those, advanced by the hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the House, who evidently was not Acquainted with the facts the case upon
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which he undertook to censure the observations of his hon. friend. The hon. Gentleman did not seem to be at all aware that the colonial institutions in connexion with the Established Church in Lower Canada, weakened instead of supporting that Church. The Roman Catholic was the established religion of Lower Canada, and had always been so; and, therefore, the only question was, whether the people should have the religion they liked best, or be forced to adopt one that other persons considered better for them. He admitted this case did not apply to Upper Canada. But the hon. member for Dundalk had equally misinterpreted or misunderstood the sentiments of his hon. friend with regard to the Established Church in this country. His hon. friend had never meant, and certainly did not say, that, because the Established Church was the religion of the majority of the people, that was the cause of his attachment to it. All he meant to say was, that such a case formed a strong ground for the Legislature to support it—a reason which was wholly inapplicable to the state of things in Canada, where the great majority of the people professed a different religion.
Petition read.
Mr. Labouchere Mr. Labouchere moved, that it should be printed; and, in doing so, begged leave to observe, that he regretted he should have been misunderstood. He was as firmly attached to the doctrine and discipline of the Church of England as the hon. member for Dundalk. He believed that Church was a blessing, and not a burthen, to the country; but he also believed, that the Church was made for man, and not man for the Church. He knew also, that he was supported by the unanimous opinions of the people of Lower Canada, of all persuasions, with respect to the religious institutions of that colony.
Petition to be printed.
Mr. Humepresented a Petition, signed by 10,000 Freeholders of Upper Canada, praying that the House would take the state of that colony into their most serious consideration—would direct, their attention to promote education and religion there—would leave all religious sects to be provided for by their various followers, and would abolish all political distinctions on account of religion. In supporting the prayer of this petition, to which he requested the serious attention of the

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House, he must, in the first place, express his great satisfaction at the sentiments which the noble Lord had laid down as the acting principle of the Government of which he formed a part, with regard to our colonial policy. The noble Lord admitted, that the House of Commons was not the most fit body to legislate for the colonies, but that the parties themselves ought to be intrusted with their own legislation, as they must best understand their own interests. It only required time to carry that fair and liberal opinion into full effect among the colonies. The colony of Canada was particularly deserving of the best treatment from England; for in the hour of difficulty and danger, the inhabitants had most nobly come forward to defend their country from the attacks of the United States, and had defended it successfully, when the troops sent out from this country would not have been alone sufficient to cope with the enemy. He could assure the hon. member for Dundalk, that the sentiments entertained by that hon. Member were not those entertained by the inhabitants of Canada, who, in this petition, had distinctly expressed their hope that all religious sects might be placed on a footing of equality. When he recalled to the remembrance of the House the feuds and broils, the wars and civil discord, the bloodshed and cruelties, which had arisen in every State of Europe from religious dissension, he thought the propriety of this part of the petition could not be doubted. The petitioners also expressed their hopes, that all ministers of religion should be removed from places of political power in the colony. It had been said, that the greatest number of the Ministers of religion was composed of members of the Church of England. It was proved that that was not the fact; for, in 1828, out of 236 ministers of religion there were only thirty-one members of the Church of England; and the complaint of the petitioners was, that these thirty-one engrossed all the places of profit and power in the colony so far as the Church was concerned. That these few pastors should be elevated above all other sects, and be formed into a dominant Church, must naturally give great offence; for the other parties who were the most numerous, justly considered their clergy neglected and degraded by their exclusion from offices. To put an end to all rivalry of this sort, the petitioners
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most justly, in his opinion, prayed that the clergymen of the Church of England should be debarred from accepting offices the duties of which were inconsistent with those which properly belonged to the teachers of religion. The petitioners also particularly prayed, that each sect might have the power, throughout both Upper and Lower Canada, of solemnizing marriages according to their own peculiar rites, of which many of them had long been deprived, contrary to the repeated and unanimous votes of the House of Assembly. He was, on this part of the subject, very happy to acknowledge, that this grievance would be removed by a Bill which had lately received his Majesty's assent. They also prayed, that the charter of King's College might be modified, so as to put an end to all sectarian tests, which had the effect of excluding all but members of the Church of England from the College Council. At present, men were compelled to sign the Thirty-nine Articles before they could enter the Council; and it was the necessity of doing that, which the petitioners wished to have abolished. He considered this part of the prayer most reasonable and proper, and that the inhabitants of Upper Canada had a just ground of complaint against such a provision. Now that all religious disabilities had been done away with at home, he hoped the same measure of justice and liberality would be dealt out to the colonies. With respect to the appropriation of land to the clergy, the petitioners prayed, that the land hitherto exclusively applied to the purposes of the Church Establishment might be placed at the disposal of Government, for the purpose of being applied to the education of all classes of the colonists. He fully concurred with the petitioners in thinking that this was absolutely necessary, and he had no doubt the House would be of the same opinion when they considered that, in every province in the United States surrounding Upper Canada on all sides, provision was made by the legislatures for the education of every child without any distinction of sex or religious sect. By the legislatures of these provinces it was provided generally, that wherever there were fifty adjacent houses, or even huts, a school must be kept open for six months in the year, and wherever the number increased to double that number of dwellings a school must be kept open during the whole year. Some plan resembling

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this ought to be extended to our North American provinces. Having thus gone through the principal points of the petitions, as he saw a right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Murray) present, who lately presided over the Colonial Department, he ventured to press the remarks he had made upon his attention, as he (Mr. Hume) considered the late Government had not acted with sufficient liberality to the Canadas, and thereby had caused them to be more dependent on the parent State, which had entailed a heavy expense and burthen upon this country. He had always maintained, that if colonies could not be maintained with advantage to themselves or the mother country, the sooner they parted from each other the better; but he never said the Canadas could not be made most useful to this country, and, at the same time be most prosperous in themselves. He believed, under proper management, both would be found quite practicable, and therefore he hailed, with great satisfaction, the appearance of a more liberal system. He would conclude by requesting permission to bring up the petition, and he would add, that one more replete with argument and sound sense he had never had the honour of presenting to the attention of the House.
Mr. Wilkssupported the prayer of the petition. He agreed in every point with the petitioners, and he had no doubt the same sentiments prevailed in the minds of those illustrious statesmen who had recently been the great advocates for the extension of civil liberty in this country, and who must desire to see religious intolerance uprooted from the soil of our colonies. He, therefore, wished to attract their special notice to a petition which sprung from one of the most important of our colonies—which had stood by us through good and evil report, and was ready to relieve this country from all financial charges on its account. The petition was signed by upwards of 10,000 persons of all sects and creeds of Christians, and in furtherance of its prayer the resolutions of the meeting from which it had emanated pronounced it expedient to supply funds for the promotion of religion and education in the provinces generally; that the pastors of all sects might be left to be supported by the offerings of their respective congregations; that all political distinctions on account of religious faith ought to cease; and the ministers of
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all religions ought not to have political power; that matrimony should be solemnized according to the faith of the parties; that the charter of King's College should be revised, and the College opened to all denominations of people; and that the clergy reserved lands ought to be appropriated for the purpose of general education, were the wants and the prayers of the petitioners, and the temper and discretion with which they were urged gave them additional force. As to the latter part of their prayer, the clergy reserves, he thought, when it was recollected that they amounted to 3,500,000 acres of land, which would yield an annual income of 350,000 l. for a century to come, the bare statement was so monstrous that the very fact of declaring it, was sufficient to prove that a different appropriation of this enormous quantity of land was required; and to what better purpose could it be applied than for the promotion of general education? When to this it was added, that, since 1828, nothing had been done to ameliorate and improve the institutions of the colony, although Canada had been, during the intervening years, largely increasing in population and wealth, when approximation to another State with habits opinions, and interests similar to their own, made it necessary that every measure should be taken to satisfy the people; when all this was the case, he must say, if nothing were done, if the same measure of procrastination was continued, Canada, like the present United States might be wearied by neglect, which would be much to be regretted, for she saw around her enough of evidence to assure her, that if she willed a separation it could not be withheld. But although the petitioners might be conscious of this, they rather appealed to the generous sentiments of the Representatives of the British people than to their fears. He could not believe their hopes would be blighted. The same liberality which was loosening the bonds of bigotry and bad government at home, would extend its boon to the happiness and prosperity of the colonies on the other side of the Atlantic.
Sir George Murraysaid, he should not have addressed the House upon this subject unless he had been directly alluded to by the hon. member for Middlesex, in connexion with his remarks relating to the policy of the late Government with regard to Canada. He trusted the sentiments

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he had always entertained with regard to the subjects to which this petition referred, were sufficiently well known to the House. He conceived that nothing could he more unfortunate for a State, than a difference of political condition among its citizens on account of a difference in their religious opinions, for nothing could be more foreign to the character of true religion than to be dragged forward and forced to become a party in political strife and contention. He could assure the House, that during the time he held the seals of the Colonial Office, there had been no desire on the part of the late Government to adopt the policy of making one sect dominant over the rest. On the contrary, there was a desire gradually to change the old constitution of the colonies in that, respect. He, however, differed from the hon. Member in one respect, for he thought that all sects ought not to be left to provide for their own preachers, but that the Government ought to make some provision for each of the important sects in the country, and endeavour to form some link of connexion with it. Some provision, made in that manner by the Government, would confer a degree of respectability on the sect thus provided for; would connect it in some degree with the State; would prevent the teachers of religion from being wholly dependent on their followers, and thus would prevent them from degenerating into that fervour of religious zeal and enthusiasm which bordered on fanaticism, and which was frequently seen in those who relied for support solely on their power of exciting the feelings of their congregations, teaching, not truth but what they found most to their own interests. It was in conformity with these principles that provision was made in Upper Canada, both for the Catholic and Presbyterian clergy, and with the intention of extending the principle, as it might become proper and necessary, to the clergy of other Christian sects. He was ready to admit, also, that he agreed with the hon. Member, that there ought to be some alteration made in the College charter, so as to destroy the differences now existing on religious accounts. While he had held the seals of office he had suspended the operation of that charter, having it in contemplation to entirely abolish that distinction, and which he certainly should have done had he continued in place. With respect to the Clergy Reserves, it was his opinion that
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they ought to be the property of the State. He had taken no measures, however, towards carrying that opinion into effect, because Acts had already been passed which permitted some portions of these lands to be sold, and as that portion had not been wholly disposed of, there was no occasion for him, of course, to come to Parliament to authorize the sale of other portions. It was at all times his intention to get rid of that part of the Constitution established for Canada in 1791, by which a seventh part of the land was set apart for the Church, because that Church was unable to bring it into cultivation itself, or of letting it to tenants in a country where the object of every man was to be a landed proprietor. The land, therefore, was wholly inefficient for the purposes for which it was granted; further, it became a great and most inconvenient impediment to the progressive improvement of the country, and because the system of giving a large and exclusive endowment to a particular Church was impracticable in those provinces where there were so many and such various sects, and where, in consequence, a spirit of envy and jealousy existed, which went on continually increasing, and which would, no doubt, be ultimately very injurious to the interests of the Church of England. He hoped this explanation would satisfy the House that there was no want of liberal views in the late Government with respect to any of the topics to which the hon. member for Middlesex had called his attention, or that were comprehended in the petition which he had presented.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, there could be no question but that it was highly impolitic to have a dominant Church in any colony, and the more so when the members of that Church formed the minority. The disproportion between the Established Church and the Roman Catholics and Dissenters in Canada was very great, and was every day increasing against the former by the stream of emigration which annually poured into Upper Canada from Ireland and Scotland. The impolicy of any political distinctions on account of religion was the greater when it was known, that Canada adjoined the United States, where no such distinctions were made. Considering the stream of emigration which was constantly flowing from these countries to the colony, it was a matter of very grave and serious importance to prevent these colonies from becoming a

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mere passage for our redundant population to the United States. At present, in consequence of the disabilities under which the Canadas were labouring, the strongest inducements were held out to emigrants to pass over to these States, He would suggest that Government should give up the clergy reserves, which, without being available to the clergy to any great extent, were great bars to the cultivation and improvement of the country. It might afterwards be a subject of consideration what provision should be made for the clergy. As to the propriety of leaving every sect, to take, care of its own Church, he would give no opinion at present; it was undoubtedly a question of much difficulty, but as he had himself been in colonies where the various sects lived in the utmost harmony, he should be disposed to consider it unwise to give a dominant power to one sect which was likely to disturb that harmony. The House had a proof of this evil in that unhappy country, Ireland, lie had been pleased to hear the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Murray) repeat (he liberal opinions which all who knew him were convinced he entertained with respect to the colonies.
Mr. Humein moving the petition be printed, apologized to the House for having omitted to mention, that (he petitioners considered themselves the best judges as to what was to be done with the clergy reserves, and they prayed they might be allowed to make such arrangements as they thought proper with regard to them.
Petition to be printed.

BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL—COMMITTEE—SECOND DAY.
The Attorney General The Attorney General moved the Order of the Day for the House again resolving itself into a Committee on this Bill.
Mr. Freshfieldwould take the opportunity of making a suggestion to the noble Lord, which might have the effect of removing any further objections to the progress of the Bill at present. He could assure the noble Lord that he made no objection to the measure from any party motives: on the contrary, he concurred in the principle of the measure, and thought it would introduce a much better system than that at present existing, but there were parts of the detail to which he did object: what, however, he would suggest to the noble Lord was, that he should fix the
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time for carrying the Bill into operation for a late period; he would say June next; that in the interim they might have an opportunity of considering its provisions, and, if necessary, of introducing a measure for further improving them.
Lord Althorpobserved, in reply to the hon. Member, that it seemed extremely desirable, to those better informed on the subject than he was, that the Bill should come into operation in the beginning of the year. If it did not come into operation in January, 1832, it would postpone, most probably, the Bill till 1833, although all admitted the defectiveness of the present system, and that those defects called loudly and promptly for remedy. All admitted, too, that the Bill would remedy many of the evils of the system. It was probable, however, that there might be improvements suggested, and amendments hereafter made; yet the passing of the Bill now, to take effect in January, 1832, would be no greater impediment to those amendments than passing it with a clause not to take effect until June, l832. It would, he was informed, too, be highly inconvenient that the Bill should come into operation in the middle of the year. As all were of opinion, that it was highly desirable the improvements introduced by the Bill should take place, he should press the clause for giving the Bill effect in the commencement of 1832.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the proposition made by his hon. friend was a most reasonable one, and he was surprised at the disposition of Ministers to press a very important measure through its stages when the patronage of the Lord Chancellor the nomination of all the registrars and assignees, was to take place immediately, while the Bill was not to come into operation until January next. These new offices embraced situations with salaries amounting to 26,000 l a-year, and those appointed to them would derive a right to rating for superannuation and salary, from the moment of passing the Bill. He understood that the noble and learned Lord had this very day, from the Woolsack, repudiated the charge of being a second Cardinal Wolsey; he repeated, however, with such a Bill as this in his hand, he had every claim to the title.
The Attorney Generalwould not, in this stage, anticipate the objections which ought to be made regularly in the Committee, further than by assuring the House,

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that the great recommendation of the Bill, next to the speedy administration of justice in this branch of the law, was the great saving which it would effect to the public. When they came, in Committee, to the clause as to superannuation and salaries of officers, he should distinctly show that the noble Lord at the head of the Chancery Court had not aimed at, nor would he obtain, the extent of patronage it was alleged he required or sought under the Bill, as, in point of fact, the salaries of the officers alluded to under the provisions of the Bill would not commence until January next.
Mr. Humesaid, he most strongly objected to the superannuation clause. It was a departure from the pledge of Ministers, so distinctly given, that they would retrench all unnecessary expense. Here were officers—the Secretary, for example, with not less than 1,200 l. a-year to be appointed—why should they not insure their lives, as in other departments of the public service, for the benefit of their families, if families they had? It looked too much like a job. Divided as persons in that House were into parties in politics, and having, of course, adherents and friends and relatives, and even predilections for those with whom the leaders of parties there generally acted, it could not but be looked on with suspicion, that these appointments in favour of the friends of the present Ministry, should be taken out of the general rule laid down as to superannuation of public officers. If, next year, they should pass a bill to limit and restrain the superannuation system, it would seem more than ordinarily suspicious that the Ministry should have availed themselves of this short interval, before the passing of such a bill of retrenchment, to put their nominees out of the reach of the general measure already anticipated. In the United States there were no retiring allowances, and the same system ought to be adopted here. The public ought not to be saddled with such a burthen. He wholly disapproved of the system, as well as the plan for pensioning off the present Commissioners. They had been amply remunerated for their services, and they had a profession from which they ought to derive an income. They had also been paid fees for their attendance, and they might as well be called on to give a retiring allowance to a physician when his patient died, as
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superannuation allowances to these Commissioners. Persons who served the public should be fairly and liberally paid, but their salaries ought to continue no longer than they fulfilled the duties of their office. At the present moment the country had to pay seven millions annually for retired military and naval pensions, and more than a million a-year to persons who had held civil situations. These sums had increased a million and a half since the conclusion of the war. The Committee which had sat for the purpose of looking into the amounts of salaries had recommended, that for the future no civil officer should be entitled to a retired allowance, and the absurdity of the system to be established by this Bill would be manifest when it was considered that a half-pay lieutenant-colonel or captain, after twenty years hard service, received perhaps about 150 l. per annum, while those Commissioners, whose services had been amply remunerated were to be entitled, after one year's attendance in this Court, to a retiring pension of 200 l. a-year.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the provisions referred to by the hon. member for Middlesex were not essential to the principle of the Bill, and the proper time to discuss them was in the Committee. It was obvious that judicial officers must stand upon a different footing with regard to superannuation allowances from other civil officers. If the Judges were not allowed a retiring pension, they would remain in office beyond the age at which they ought to retire. He should be sorry that anything in the Bill should be taken as a precedent affecting the general question of superannuation. With respect to several of the offices connected with the Court, he was ready to admit the same rule ought to be applied to them as to other offices, but in general he agreed with the hon. Member, that the present system of superannuation was a great grievance.
Mr. Huntsaid, this Bill did not look as if the noble Lord were following out his own principles. He had understood that it was the boast of the present Ministers, that they proposed to carry on the Government without the aid of patronage.
Lord Althorpobserved, that he had only said the Government would do as much as possible without patronage, for he was satisfied that it was a greater evil than good. He trusted the House did not

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believe they were making a change in a Court of Justice for the purpose of acquiring patronage. If any persons did think so, he would recommend them to look at the provisions of the Bill, and they would find patronage would be diminished by it. Certainly, however, he was of opinion that in all cases where appointments were necessary they ought to be filled up by Government.
Mr. Huntsaid, the noble Lord had expressed nearly the same opinion as he had understood him to entertain, viz. that the Government was not to be carried on by means of patronage; but this Bill, notwithstanding, would give a pretty tolerable share to one of the members of the Cabinet. He must complain of the haste with which the Bill had been pushed forward, for which he could understand no other reason than that there were fifty new places to be at the disposal of the Lord Chancellor. He regretted, however, to hear the noble and learned Lord compared to Cardinal Wolsey. He did not believe him to be so rapacious of patronage and personal emolument as that person undoubtedly was, if history told the truth.
Mr. Daniel Whittle Harveysaid, it appeared from the objections made to the present measure, and to the change of system in the Bankruptcy Court, as if this were the first time when anything had been said against the mode of administering that branch of the law. The nature of the opposition that had been manifested must produce an effect upon the public mind. One of the chief arguments that had been urged against this Bill, and the only objection that the hon. member for Preston stated against it, was, that it would give great patronage to the present, Lord Chancellor. But if the measure was good and just in itself, the argument respecting patronage ought not to be regarded. To no person could the disposal of the appointments created by this Bill with more propriety be intrusted than to the Lord Chancellor for the time being. Indeed, the stoutest opponent of the Bill would not wish the patronage of judicial offices to be placed in other hands than in those of the head of the law. If an improper use was made of the patronage intrusted to that high office, the holder was amenable to the laws of the country, and the jealousy with which this House and the public always regarded any matter connected with the administration
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of justice, would at once prevent such an abuse of authority as hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to anticipate. If anything of the sort were to happen, it would immediately be brought under the attention of the Legislature. It had been said, that this Bill was hurried through the House in an improper manner, and without due discussion. But, surely the House must recollect how often this subject had been brought under its attention, and how many complaints had been made from all the great commercial places in the kingdom, of the manner in which the Bankrupt-law had been administered. He would recommend the hon. member for Preston, who did not appear to be very well acquainted with the defects of the present system, to spend a little time in reading some of the petitions that had been presented to this House on the subject, and also some of the reports of the Committees that had been appointed to inquire into the matter. In 1818, a Committee was appointed to inquire into the subject, and that Committee, after receiving the evidence of the most eminent lawyers, experienced solicitors, extensive merchants, and respectable traders, who all concurred in condemning the present system, presented a report to the House, and this Bill was the very measure, in substance and spirit, which that Committee recommended to be adopted. Upwards of fifty witnesses were examined upon that occasion, and no person who would take the trouble to refer to these names would say that all these respectable persons were actuated by party feelings. Three of the most eminent practitioners in that Court, namely, Mr. Cullen, Mr. Montagu, and the present Lord Henley, all joined in condemning its constitution, and they agreed that it was impossible to speak in too strong terms of the mode in which business was transacted in that Court. The present Bill was, in letter and in spirit, in perfect accordance with the recommendation of the Committee, and more especially the mode of forming the Court of Review, which had been so much condemned by hon. Members opposite. He would not take up the time of the House at present, nor do anything calculated to impede their getting into Committee, but if an opportunity had been afforded him at an earlier period, and the hon. and learned member for Borough-bridge had spared him one of the many

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hours during which he had occupied the time of the House, he would have endeavoured to shew the absolute necessity of such a measure as the present, as also the probability that it would work extremely well, and that, at all events, the experiment should have a fair trial.
Mr. Pollocksaid, that the Bill before the House would, in his opinion, provide a good and efficient Court, in the place of the present defective and most inefficient system—substitute despatch for delay, and economy for extravagance. That was not a hasty and ill-advised opinion, for he had given the subject all the consideration in his power. He had had repeated opportunities of forming a judgment on this subject during the course of his experience—and he might, perhaps, be allowed to add, that he believed, with the exception of Mr. Cullen, and his hon. and learned friend op-opposite (Mr. Serjeant Wilde) he had had more experience of this Court than any member of the profession. From a very early period of his career he was accustomed to attend the Court of the Commissioners of Bankrupts day after day, and year after year, and he agreed in the conclusion arrived at by his hon. and learned friend, that it was the very worst tribunal in existence for the administration of justice. But in making that observation he felt bound to state, that more honourable and upright men did not exist than many of the present Commissioners. He had the happiness of living on terms of intimacy with many of those Gentlemen: the defects that he complained of arose from the very constitution of this Court. Some of the Commissioners never came near it, and he knew one List before which he had repeatedly been engaged, in which one of the Commissioners did not attend for fourteen years. On investigation it would be found, that never more than one half of the Commissioners attended. It often happened that, after the proceedings had commenced, one of the Commissioners would want to go away, either out of town for pleasure, or on business to some other Court in which he was engaged—in short, the system was so defective, that no time ought to be lost in improving it. It was said, "Why not wait until next year?" but he contended, that the Legislature would be culpable in procrastinating the removal of acknowledged defects in a most important part of the administration of the law. With reference to the want of economy charged
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against the present measure, he would say one word; and he assured the House that he would not take up much time in the few observations which he felt desirous of making. He did not think that any charge need be made on the public for the maintenance of the new Court, for there were different sources of revenue already existing which might be applied to that purpose. First of all there was the undivided surplus of estates which had come under the cognizance of the Bankrupt Court; and secondly, there were the unclaimed dividends, which amounted to an exceedingly large sum. He knew that, in the course of fifteen or twenty years, unclaimed dividends to no less an amount than 2,000,000 l. had been collected, and he was convinced that many millions remained yet uncollected. These revenues would be found more than sufficient to pay all the expenses of the new Court. Several hon. Members who had addressed the House on this subject had thought proper to disclaim being influenced by party considerations. He considered that any such disclaimer was entirely uncalled for. This was no party question; at least, he knew that the noble and learned Lord who presided in the Court of Chancery did not consider it so; for he had, during the preparation of the measure, consulted every person, no matter what his politics might be, who could communicate valuable information, or make useful suggestions. A great deal had been said with respect to the patronage which would be created by this Bill; but those hon. Members who objected to the Bill on the score of its increasing the patronage of the Lord Chancellor, should consider, that when a new Court was established it was necessary to appoint. Judges to that Court; and therefore patronage must be vested somewhere. Now, who was the most fit person to have the disposal of those appointments? He had no hesitation in saying, that looking to the character of the noble individual who now held the Great Seal, there was no person to whom that patronage could be more safely intrusted than to that noble and learned Lord; and the appointments which, it was whispered, were already intended, reflected the greatest credit on his judgment. Knowing, from experience, that the present system was most defective, and being of opinion that the proposed change would have a most advantageous operation, he did hope that no unnecessary

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delay would be thrown in the way of the passing of the Bill. He thought there could be no doubt that in the details of the Bill economy had been consulted; and the creditors would be greatly benefitted by its being carried into effect.
Mr. John Woodsaid, that an hon. and learned Member (Sir Charles Wetherell) had designated this measure as a gross job, which stunk in the nostrils. He wished to know whether the hon. and learned Member likewise considered the conduct of Lords Thurlow and Eldon stunk in the nostrils? Lord Thurlow had given to his nephew two offices worth 12,000 l. a year, the reversion of which offices had been secured by Lord Eldon for his son. This was part of the patronage which the present Lord Chancellor meant to cut off, and yet the time of the House had been wasted for five or six nights in discussing the expense of the new system, which would not exceed 26,000 l.
Sir John Newportconsidered, that the Bill would remedy the evils of the present system in the most economical and efficient manner. There was one clause in the Bill, relating to official assignees, upon which he wished to address a few words to the House, but he thought the most proper time for so doing would be in Committee. He considered it unfair towards the Speaker, who was oppressed with business, to keep him in the Chair to listen to debates which ought regularly to be entered upon in Committee. With respect to official assignees, he would at present only say, that he knew, from his own experience as a commercial man, that the great grievance of the present system was, the want of official assignees.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, he had considerable experience in subjects of this nature, and when the matter had been formerly before the House he had suggested alterations in some degree similar to what were contained in that Bill, He knew that the present system was very inefficient, and he considered that the proposed Bill would effect a most beneficial change. He did not mean to say, that, it would not be found, after some time, to require alteration, but he thought that it was, upon the whole, a most excellent measure.
Mr. Praedsaid, that if any discussions had been introduced merely for the purpose of protracting the passing of the Bill, he certainly had not been a party to them. He was very sorry that the proposition which
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had been made by an hon. and learned Gentleman near him, which would have had the effect of shortening the time spent in debate, had not been agreed to by the noble Lord. That proposition was, to let the Bill be passed, but not to allow it to come into operation until June next, and in the mean time an opportunity would be afforded of making inquiries, and any alterations that might be thought desirable might be made. The Bill had not been brought under the attention of the House of Commons at a time when proper consideration could be given to it, and when an investigation of the subject, in all its details, could take place. The hon. member for Colchester observed, that this was not a new measure, for it was founded on the recommendations contained in the various Reports of the Committee up-stairs; but he would beg him to recollect, that a considerable portion of the Members of the present House were not Members of the Parliament in which those Reports were made; but, the House was almost entirely constituted of a different set of individuals. He knew that a Court of Appeal, formed of the Commissioners, had repeatedly been recommended, but this was very different from having an entirely new constituted Court. His hon. and learned friend said, that the objection to the Bill coming into operation in January, would apply to any time, and that it might as well be postponed to an indefinite period as to be deferred to June. He was called, by the courtesy of the House, learned, though his professional experience had been extremely small, and yet the noble Lord, certainly with not more professional experience, said that, he could not consent to postpone the operation of this Bill beyond January next, as it would lead to great inconvenience. He (Mr. Praed) had not heard any positive inconvenience pointed out, which could result from postponing the operation of the. Bill from January to June. He would not now go into the question of the official assignees, upon which point he entertained strong objections, but should defer what he had to say on the subject for the Committee. With respect to the imputations that had been cast upon the Lord Chancellor, he must disclaim having any participation in them. He was old enough to know that the imputation of being actuated by unworthy motives would be cast upon those who took an active part in political matters;

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and he certainly was not disposed to impute either the motives he had heard assigned to Lord Brougham, or to interpret the conduct of the noble and learned Lord in the way it had been, as a difference in political sentiments was not, in his opinion, a sufficient excuse to attack the character of a man. Lord Brougham was a man of great talent; and supposing that he were not actuated by a desire to do good and serve his country, yet his high ambition would preserve him from the influence of such considerations as he was sorry to hear imputed to that noble Lord. He certainly did not agree in the political opinions of the noble and learned Lord in question, for he had had a chief part in framing a measure which, in his opinion, was an organ which would lead to other steps ending in the destruction of the Constitution of the country. He did not think that any man, under the circumstances in which Lord Brougham was placed, would be actuated by such motives, and still less did he entertain such an opinion of that noble and learned Lord.
The House went into Committee—Mr. Bernal in the Chair.
On the clause being read, enacting, "that the said Judges, or any three of them, shall and may form a Court of Review, &c,"
Sir Charles Wetherell Sir Charles Wetherell rose to defend himself from the attack which had been made on him by the hon. and learned member for Preston (Mr. John Wood). The hon. Member had thought proper to criticise his (Sir Charles Wetherell's) vocabulary, and had found particular fault with him because he had said, that the patronage granted by this Bill "stunk in his nostrils." Now when he used that phrase he had distinctly stated, that he would not have used so strong an expression, if Lord Brougham, when a Member of that House, had not given utterance to it. He still objected to the extent of patronage provided by this Bill. Not with respect to any pecuniary advantage that might accrue from it—nothing he had said had the most distant approximation to such a dirty, paltry, miserable idea; but because that patronage might be made the source of political influence. A more unfounded charge than that levelled at him by the hon. member for Preston never was advanced against any one. He wondered how such an idea could enter into, he would not say, the muddy head of any
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man, but he would say, that the head of that man must be very thick, and his understanding very groggy, who could suppose that when he (Sir Charles Wetherell) alluded to political patronage, he was insinuating, that in the framing of this Bill any individual was actuated by the dirty motive of putting emolument into his own pocket. He thus thought that he had removed himself out of the unjust and un-candid atmosphere of the hon. member for Preston—an atmosphere which he did not wish to breathe. He had thus fairly met the hon. member for Preston, and hurled back his dirty insinuations. As to the retiring pension to the Chief Justice, he did not object to it; but would the House give retiring pensions to the Puisne Judges? Assuming, then, that a pension should be given to the Chief Justice, though not to the subordinate Judges, nor to the officers of the Court, he would beg leave to notice what had fallen from the hon. member for Colchester, who told the House that he was a fortnight waiting for an opportunity to deliver his sentiments upon this Bill, and now that it had been given, it did not enable the House to arrive at any very distinct or satisfactory result; for he had not touched any one of the considerations which were of importance in the decision of a question of this nature. The matter in dispute between the Members on this side of the House and the hon. Gentlemen opposite was, not the existence of the evils complained of, but the best mode of remedying those evils. The chief difference between them was, respecting the intermediate Court, or rather the construction of that Court; and upon that subject the worthy Alderman, who had already taken a part in these discussions, had said, that there were many defects which ought to be remedied; and so there were in this Act many defects which must be remedied before it could be rendered useful to the community, or in any respect promotive of the ends of justice. In the whole course of these discussions there was not one hon. Member who had not thought proper to make him a subject of animadversion—some had found fault with his arguments, others with his language—one objected to his vocabulary as vulgar, and others complained of his statements as exaggerated; but he consoled himself by the reflection, that he endured this in common with all those who had ever maintained the opinions of the minority.

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It was not long since, owing to an accident which left him in that place almost alone, he had as many as six or seven speakers to reply to, supported as those speakers were by a host of cheerers. He was somewhat in the situation of his poor friend Lord Londonderry, who was pelted by half-a-dozen at a time. Being now in Committee, he was in a situation to meet his adversaries—adversaries upon whom he never turned his back, if they were ever so formidable, and the Ministerial cheers by which they were supported ever so loud. The importance, he and his party attached to the creation of patronage which would take place under this Bill, had been made a subject of ridicule, in the House and elsewhere; but let it be recollected, that their objection to that patronage did not rest upon any probable use to be made of it by the present Lord Chancellor, and, therefore, the answer that had been given to this argument, met no one of their objections. The answer which their adversaries gave was, that Lord Brougham had said, "With respect, to the patronage, do not let that be any obstacle; I am perfectly willing to give it up." But there were far other grounds upon which they opposed this Bill, and far other exceptions which they took to it, though the organs of Ministerial opinion were pleased to say that they urged these objections, not from conviction, or a sense of public duty, but from a desire to gain time till circumstances should prove more favourable to their views. They were, in fact, accused by the Press of speaking against time. Such was the miserable organ to which their opponents were compelled to have recourse—an organ that would, whenever permitted, issue ukases as violent and as tyrannical as those which were obeyed upon the banks of the Volga or the Don; and for disregard of these ukases, they (the Opposition) were proscribed—they were told by this organ that they were guilty of a waste of time. The more this Bill was examined, and the more frequent and repeated the attempts were to expose its faults and imperfections, the more evident must it be to the independent Members of that House, that the present was not a factious opposition—notwithstanding his hon. and learned friend, the Attorney-General, seemed to say as much—and although he did so in the quaint and polite manner peculiar to him, still the accusation amounted to something of that sort.
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Notwithstanding all this, they proceeded—notwithstanding all this, they gained ground every day. The hon. member for Buckinghamshire admitted that a good many alterations ought to be made, and the hon. member for London made a similar admission. If the principle of giving the retiring Judge a pension were confined to the Chief Justice, he should not object to it, but even in this case a matter so purely experimental ought not to be allowed to accumulate upon the public so enormous an expense. He had an amendment to propose to that clause under which the Court of Review was to be appointed; but he should, of course, postpone submitting that amendment to the consideration of the Committee, until they had arrived at that particular clause.
Clause agreed to.
The next clause enacted, "That all such matters to be heard and determined in the said Court of Review shall be brought on by way of petition, motion, or special case, according to the rules and regulations to be established, as hereinafter provided, subject to an appeal to the Lord Chancellor on matters of law and equity, or on the refusal or admission of evidence only, &c."
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, that this clause spoke of rules and regulations to be "hereafter established," by which matters to be heard and determined in this new Court should be brought on. He should be glad to know something of these rules and regulations. Here was a Bill going through the House in October, 1831, which was to come into effect in January, 1832, and yet the rules and regulations by which its proceeding were to be governed in certain cases were to be "hereafter established." Now, if he were to divide the Committee on this point, he should, no doubt, be assailed by the gipseyjargon of the day, and told that he was taking a factious part. The present Bill, he must say, was the most crude heap of non-existent legislation that he had ever seen.
Sir John Newportcontended, that the Bill did contain that provision which the hon. and learned Gentleman complained of as having been omitted. If individuals would look carefully to the clauses of the Bill, they would not fall into such errors, and much time would, in consequence, be saved. In page 4, there was a clause which completely met the hon. and learned

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Gentleman's objection. It was there enacted, "That the Judges of the said Court of Review, with the consent of the Lord Chancellor, shall have power from time to time to make general rules and orders for regulating the practice of the said Court of Bankruptcy, the sitting of the Judges and Commissioners thereof, and the conduct of the practitioners therein." What could be more plain than this? The enactment proceeded on the principle acted upon in every Court in this country, each of which had a right to frame rules and regulations for its government.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, his objection was, that the present measure went to overturn an old system of practice, without giving them any insight as to what the new practice was to be.
The Solicitor Generalsaid, that the object of the clause was, to allow parties to proceed by motion and by special case, as well as by petition. He was surprised at the objection of his hon. and learned friend, because no one knew better than his hon. and learned friend the inconveniences which resulted from the present jurisdiction.
Mr. Warburtonhad already stated, that if he were compelled to choose between the present system and this Bill, he should prefer the Bill, defective as it was. He could not, however, help perceiving, that there was flowing a tide of improvement, which would carry away all the defects of the existing system, and he must therefore object to so defective a measure as the present. He could not understand the necessity for this series of appeals—this cascade of appeals—which came so rapidly upon each other, that if the frail bark should escape one or two, and ride for a time in smooth water, yet still it must, perish before it cleared the last. Why was not one man of pre-eminent abilities, and with a good salary, placed at the head of the Court, and the ultimate appeal made to him? The hon. Member then read several extracts from evidence of Sir Samuel Romilly, Mr Horne (the present Solicitor General), and Mr. Cooke; all of which, the hon. Member said, justified him in contending, that there would be no necessity for an appeal to the Chancellor, if a Judge of the first abilities were selected to preside over the Court. He valued but as dust the uniformity of decisions which had been so much lauded. Let them reduce their laws to writing; let them bring
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their laws together into a code, and all the arguments respecting uniformity of decisions would fall to the ground.
The Solicitor Generalsaid, that he had never given any general opinion upon bankruptcy. He was asked to go before the Chancery Commissioners, and he went. The Commissioners put questions in a set form of words, and he was obliged to frame his answers to that form. Surely those answers could not be taken as his opinion upon bankruptcy. If the Commissioners had asked him for his opinion respecting the bankruptcy jurisdiction, he should have stated what he thought the best plan of ameliorating it, and not have contented himself with an opinion, with reasons, or with the exposure of faults, without the suggestion of what he considered remedies for those faults.
Mr. Godsonsaid, it was evident that the hon. member for Bridport (Mr. Warburton) did not understand the appellate jurisdiction created by the Bill. The general objections to appeals did not apply to the appeal given by this Bill, for it would be accompanied neither by the delays nor the expenses which usually attended appeals. The facts would be settled by the Court below, and the appeal would only be made on a matter of law. The Chancellor, therefore, would have, in fact, merely to perform the part of a Court of Error.
Mr. Serjeant Wildewas convinced, that if the hon. Member (Mr. Warburton) opposite would give his attention to the nature of this appellate jurisdiction, the hon. Member would see that his objections to it had no foundation whatsoever. There was no other way of guarding against the mischiefs of conflicting decisions than to promote such an appeal as would ensure uniformity of decision. The hon. Member (Mr. Warburton) had said, that he valued uniformity of decision but as dust, for he wanted a code. This was a very extraordinary position. Take an Act of Parliament—there was the hon. Member's code for him at once. But how did the hon. Member become the better off by means of a code, since Courts would act upon the construction of the Act of Parliament—upon the construction of the code—and upon nothing else? Now the advantage of this appellate jurisdiction was this—it would lessen the, expense and the delay of the present system. At present, ninety-nine out of every hundred appeals, were

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appeals as to the facts, and not as to law, and the enormous delay and expense of such appeals were notorious. Appeals as to facts were positively ruinous, but as to law they were not attended with much expense, and were decided speedily. The authorities which the hon. Member (Mr. Warburton) had quoted related to appeals as to facts. Sir Samuel Romilly was neither so unlearned nor so inexperienced as to be unaware of the distinction between these two classes of appeals; and it was to appeals as to facts, and to those appeals only, that Sir Samuel Romilly and the other authorities cited, referred. But the appeal given by this Bill was an appeal upon the law, not upon the facts of the case. No disputed fact was ever placed in a special case; special cases were usually contained in three brief-sheets: they involved matters of law only, and in the Courts in which he practised, not more than one counsel was usually heard on each side. Such would be the nature of the appeal to the Lord Chancellor under this Bill: whereas the appeals under the existing system, stated all the facts and the disputes upon them, and not unfrequently occupied upwards of 1,000 brief-sheets. He would venture to say, that the appeal given by this Bill was given in a more economical, a more speedy, and a more efficient manner than the ingenuity of man had ever before devised. Among all the objections which had been urged against this Bill, that which had surprised him most was, the objection of his hon. and learned friend (Sir Charles Wetherell), that the Judges to be appointed under it were to be appointed forthwith. Now if a Court were appointed for new purposes, there would be no great inconvenience, perhaps, in naming the Judges the very day before they were to enter upon the discharge of their duties, because business would come but slowly to such a Court, and the Judges would have time to make their rules as occasions for those rules presented themselves. The Bankruptcy Court, however, would take up every Commission in existence, and would be not only full, but more than full of business by the 11th of January, the day from which the Act was to take effect. When, he would ask, if the Judges were not to be appointed forthwith, were, the rules for the Court to be made? If his hon. and learned friend's suggestion were to be attended to, the Judges would be
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introduced to each other for the first time upon taking their seats in the Court, when they would have to enter upon the immediate discharge of their duties, without laving had an opportunity of consulting with each other and settling the rules by which the proceedings of that Court were to be regulated.
Mr. Burge: could only account for the speech of his hon. and learned friend, on the supposition that he presumed hon. Members on that side of the House were blind to the evils of the present system of Bankrupt Laws, and therefore conceived no remedy to be necessary. If his hon. friend thought so, he misconceived their opinions. They felt and admitted, that there were evils in the present system, but they did not consider the present Bill the proper remedy for those evils. He decidedly thought, that a part of the expensive system of the new Court was not required. With respect to the additional patronage that would accrue to the Lord Chancellor, he saw nothing whatever objectionable in it, provided it could be shown, that the Courts and officers in which it would originate were essential or necessary to the public interests. In answer to what his learned friend had stated as to the beneficial result of viva race examinations, he begged to refer to the Bill itself; the latter part of which left open the power of calling for affidavits as much as for oral testimony. In addition to these and other objections, he also thought, that the Judges' salaries were insufficient to lead eminent men to give up their practice and the prospect of advancement to other judicial appointments.
Mr. Pagetsaid, that while he admired the able speech of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Serjeant Wilde) he must, at the same time, say, that the terror felt by commercial men at the ruinous delay in the proceeding in bankruptcy would not be lessened by the present measure. Such would be the result of the additional appeals. For his part he could see no utility in appealing to the Chancellor, and much less to the House of Lords. As the source of fear to commercial men, next to the delay and expense of the law, came its uncertainty, and this would be augmented by the number of Judges. If a single Judge had been appointed in the new Court as the ultimate judge of Appeal, he should have deemed the measure a great benefit to the country. One Judge,

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in his opinion, would be preferable to four—would have given more uniformity to the law, and better satisfied suitors. After thirty years' experience in business he had found the expenses incidental to the present system so enormous, that he believed even this Bill, bad as it was, would be a great relief to the community. In these days, however, of improvement, he trusted that they would see a little more of the philosophy of law introduced into practical legislation.
Mr. Freshfieldsaid, that three appeals would be unnecessary on the grounds upon which the hon. and learned Serjeant founded his argument, for he was inaccurate in his data. This was also the case with the hon. and learned member for St. Alban's (Mr. Godson), in saying that there were two appeals in every case, and that, therefore, they must be continued. He had stated, that an appeal would be first to the Exchequer, and then to the House of Lords. In this instance, the hon. and learned Member was in error; he, therefore wished the House not to seek for imaginary reasons to support the appeals on this Bill.
Mr. Warburton Mr. Warburton moved pro forma, as he stated it was not his intention to divide the Committee, to leave out all the words of the clause after the word "provided," in the fourth line of the clause.
Sir Charles Wetherellexpressed his satisfaction, that the factious part of the House had received such a useful reinforcement in the two hon. members for Bridport and Leicestershire. He contended, that the prevailing evils in the Bankruptcy Courts would not be removed by the Bill. It was an experimental Bill: there had been no inquiry, no Committee, as there ought to have been. The Bill laid down no rules, established no practice, and would be inefficacious. He agreed with the two hon. Members alluded to, in thinking that there ought to be a superior Judge of Appeal; but he thought that Judge should be the Lord Chancellor or the Vice-chancellor, while those hon. Members thought he should be a separate Judge.
Amendment negatived without a division—the Clause agreed to.
On the question, that the clause relating to costs in the Court of Review stand part of the Bill,
Mr. Warburtonsaid, he saw no provision in the Bill for the due investigation
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of long and complicated accounts; some regulation and provision for the due examination and settlement of such ought, undoubtedly, to be made.
The Solicitor Generalobserved, in reply to the hon. Gentleman, that it was a part of the duty of the official assignees to take such, matters under their superintendence, and if he would refer to the Bill, he would find the case he put was specially provided for.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, it was perfectly notorious, that by the existing system one set of creditors endeavoured to prevent another from proving their debts, for the purpose of excluding them from voting for assignees. This frequently gave rise to great disputes and very considerable inconvenience and expense among the creditors with respect to the appointment of assignees, and this made it positively necessary that a special provision should be made for the examination of long complicated, and perhaps disputed accounts.
Sir Charles Wetherellquite agreed with the principle laid down by the hon. Gentleman, that accounts should be investigated without reference to strict and technical rules. The great fault of the Bill was, that it proposed to remove existing abuses, but provided no specific remedy for them. He apprehended the mode of proceeding with long and complicated accounts would be, that the single Commissioner would refer them to the three Commissioners, and they would refer them to the Assignees or somebody else for revision and settlement, and this would be the result of this economical and, as it was called, save-all Bill, even in the first stage of its progress.
The Attorney Generalsaid, there would be a special arbitrator appointed to decide upon all disputed accounts, and, therefore, he thought such an officer, who, he had no doubt, would do his duty, would fully meet the objection taken by the hon. member for Bridport. Such accounts would be settled by the strict and technical rule of evidence.
Mr. John Campbellthought the Bill contained a sufficient provision for the due investigation of the most complicated accounts. The Commissioners would wholly neglect their duty if, they held that matters of account were to be decided by a Jury. The only questions really for a Jury to decide in bankruptcy cases would be simple matters of fact, such as whether an act of bankruptcy had been committed,

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whether the party was a trader and came within its provisions, and questions in general of that sort. The arbitrator would investigate the accounts, and they would be decided upon oath—according to the rules of plain common sense. The Commissioner would, in the first instance, examine them; if they were complicated he would call in assistance, but all issues to be tried by a Jury would only relate to questions of fact.
Mr. Warburtonwould take the case as the hon. and learned Gentleman put it, for there could be no doubt, if the Commissioners were authorized to call in assistance, they would do so in almost every case. Indeed, in times of mercantile distress it was impossible they could have time to investigate accounts without further assistance. In the year 1826 there were 10,291 public and private meetings; this would average five meetings a day to each of the six Commissioners, and he thought this duty alone would fully employ them.
Clause to stand part of the Bill.
On the question that the clause relating to Subdivision Courts stand part of the Bill,
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the effect of this clause would be, that a party would have to run the gauntlet, through all the Commissioners; he might appeal from one to another until he had run through the whole list.
Mr. John Campbellthought nothing could be more simple than this provision. One Commissioner would decide upon ordinary questions, but if there was any difficulty he had the power to cull in assistance. He was surprised, that the hon. and learned Gentleman should disapprove of this clause, when he knew that the great disadvantage of the present system was that three Commissioners must decide, by which much labour and money was thrown away. Besides, the practice was common in the superior Courts to have only one Judge. He frequently made motions before one, when if any question of importance arose, it was postponed by the Judge who presided until his brethren were present. This was the practice in the Court of King's Bench, and it would be followed by the Commissioners appointed under this Bill.
Mr. Warburtonwas most ready to allow, that ordinary questions being decided by one Commissioner was an improvement but why should he appeal to two others if
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the question was important? He could take time for deliberation instead of sheltering his ignorance under a plea of appealing to his fellows. He was afraid the practical effect of this arrangement would be to bring people into the Commission who were unfit for the office.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the case his hon. friend had put, relating to the practice in the Court of King's Bench, had not, the slightest analogy to what would happen under this Bill. Upon such a motion as that made by his learned friend, there was no examination of witnesses, and no inquiry whatever. That case simply was, his hon. friend moved, perhaps, "That judgment be entered for the defendant," to which the Judge answered, "You had better move it when the Court is more full." How could such a case, with any propriety, be said to resemble the case of the Commissioner for Bankrupts, who must go through the whole of the case before him, whether he decided it or not, and who must put in motion the whole functions of a Judge before he could determine whether he would decide the question himself or refer it to others to decide. This part of the Bill was applicable, however, to something else, he meant a certain Cabinet measure, for which the hon. Gentlemen opposite said "We are all responsible alike." The Commissioners, who would form a sort of demi-Cabinet among themselves, would also follow this example, and say, "We will make this a Cabinet measure, and then we shall be all of us equally responsible." By these means this double hearing would be productive of no other results than as a sort of loop-hole through which guilty parties might escape, and would relieve the Judge from individual responsibility. He would not move an Amendment to the clause, for he despaired of carrying it, but he could not let it pass without shewing he had great objections to it.
Mr. Serjeant Wildesaid, the operation of the clause would be advantageous in this way that the parties in all cases of difficulty would have three well qualified persons to decide their case instead of one.
Clause to stand part of the Bill.
On the question relating to the appointment of Registrars and Deputy Registrars,
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, this clause was to appoint two Registrars at 800 l. each, and eight Deputy Registrars with

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salaries of 600 l. a-year each. These were pretty handsome allowances certainly, but he hoped to be told what were the duties they would have to perform; for besides these, there was to be a Secretary for Bankrupts with a full establishment of clerks.
The Attorney Generalsaid, his hon. and learned friend would of course recollect, that it was impossible to have a Bankruptcy Court without Registrars, and while the chief of them attended the Court they must have Deputies to look after the duties of their offices; and as to the expense, this establishment would cost 1,600 l.a-year less than the present one.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, if these Registrars could be made the means of taking down the evidence and proceedings of the Court in short-hand it would save much time; every body knew that whole days were taken up occasionally with putting a few questions.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, he agreed with the hon. Gentleman that short-hand writers would be much more useful than such an establishment of Registrars, whose appointment in such numbers he thought a farce if it was not for the purpose of obtaining patronage. He should, therefore, move as an Amendment, that the word "two" as applying to the Registrars be left out, and the word "one" substituted, and, that the word "eight" should be left out as applying to the Deputy Registrars in the clause, and that the word "four" be substituted.
Amendment negatived, and the clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
On the clause authorizing the Lord Chancellor to issue a fiat in lieu of a Commission,
Mr. Lefroysaid, it appeared that the fiat might be issued both for London and country Commissions. How was this fiat to be authenticated? The Seal authenticated itself, but that was not the case where only the signature of the individual was attached in London. The hand-writing might be well known, but how could the country Commissioners be sure that it was authentic? and upon the validity of the instrument depended the legality of their whole proceedings. A Commission might be issued at not more expense than a fiat, and was much more easily ascertained to be genuine.
The Solicitor Generalobserved, in reply to the hon. and learned Gentleman, that his objection was of no weight whatever.
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The most important orders were daily made under the simple signature of the Lord Chancellor.
Clause agreed to.
On the clause providing for the appointment of Country Commissioners and the directing fiats to them.
Mr. Pagetsaid, if the appointment of these Commissioners was left entirely to the Chancellor, who ought to be responsible for them, there would be more security for their being proper and respectable persons than if appointed by the Judges of Assize, who must be guided only by hearsay as to the merit and qualities of the persons to be appointed.
The Attorney Generalsaid, he thought the case would be quite the contrary. The Judges went the circuit, and had the best opportunity of knowing, from actual observation, the merit and capabilities of the persons whom they appointed. That was an advantage that the Chancellor would be wholly destitute of, from his constant residence in town.
Mr. John Campbellsupported the clause. Nothing could be worse than the present, appointments. The Commissioners were mostly country attornies who played into each other's hands. To show how the present system worked, he would state a fact, the truth of which was perfectly well known to him:— A friend of his, a practitioner at a provincial Bar, was made a Commissioner; a case of bankruptcy occurred, and considerable sums of money were collected from the estate. "Now," said my friend to the attorney, "I think we may have a dividend." "A dividend!" echoed the attorney with great surprise, "let me advise you never to mention the word 'dividend,' or you will not suit us."
Mr. Burgeobjected to the clause that there would be two kinds of jurisdiction established by it. The country Commissioners were not to have the same powers as the London Commissioners. He wished to know if these country Commissioners were to have the power to direct issues?
The Attorney Generalsaid, if it was desirable issues should be tried in the country, he saw no reason why an amendment to that effect should not be introduced. The object of the clause was only to improve the general practice of such Commissions.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the plain matter of fact was, that out of 1,500 Commissions of bankruptcy annually issued, 500 was the outside of those which

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took place in London—so that two-thirds of the bankruptcy cases would never be brought before the new Issue Court as established by this Bill, and he would never consent to an extension of what appeared to him likely to be an absurd and troublesome system.
The Attorney Generalwas perfectly ready to admit, that the materials could not be readily found in a country town for the constitution of such a Court as was proposed to be formed in London; neither was it expedient or necessary, for a large proportion of the country bankruptcies were brought to London to be worked, and surely, if every case could not be embraced, that was a very bad reason why the management of other cases should not be improved.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, the Bill constituted a new Court, and many of the questions which would be brought before it were matters of right; others were matters of discretion. A larger discretionary power ought to be allowed, or they would find the machinery of this much-lauded Court not competent to deal with the laws that were left.
The Solicitor Generalobserved, that the present measure had nothing whatever to do with the Bankrupt-laws themselves, but only related to the administration of them. The whole of the present laws were consolidated about six years ago, by a bill brought in by Mr. Eden. The new machinery, he was free to admit, was not applicable to some of their provisions.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, the age of the statute was of very little consequence; the great object of inquiry was, whether the law were good, and, if not, how it could be improved. Many gross errors and faults had been pointed out in the Bankrupt-laws. He would just mention one: the law now was, that if a man became a bankrupt thrice, and his estate, in the second Commission, did not pay 15 s. in the pound on the third bankruptcy, the assignees for the second bankruptcy could pounce upon the effects of the third. This operated frequently as an inducement to fraud. He himself had been concerned in a case where this effect took place.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, it was a whimsical course to make anew Court before the anomalies and absurdities of the whole of the present system of the Bankrupt-laws were revised and corrected. It
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was not at, all likely that the machinery would be found to suit the new codes. He had hitherto made no remarks on these laws, but had confined himself to the new Court. When they came to the laws themselves, he feared they would find it a very difficult task to prevent complaints as to their working in particular cases.
Clause agreed to.
On the clause providing that a discretionary power of superseding Commissions should be vested in the Great Seal,
Sir Charles Wetherellobjected, that such a power should be delegated to the Lord Chancellor. It would be a direct interference with the rules of his Court, as already long since clearly laid down and established by long usage.
The Solicitor Generalreplied, that there were sufficient constitutional controls for the prevention of that judicial functionary's improperly enforcing this privilege in any Commission that should come under his cognizance, and the Bill expressly provided, that he should exercise it in no case, except where manifest and valid grounds should be shown for his interference.
Mr. John Campbellsaid, the Chancellor might be impeached in this as well as in other cases if he abused the power given him: all that was done by granting the supersedeas was simply saying, he should have the same authority over the fiat that he had over the Commission.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, that by the rules of the Court, and by the usual practice, the Chancellor could only decree A's property to B in certain known cases; but the clause enabled him to supersede a. Commission at his good pleasure.
Mr. Fresfieldobserved, that instead of putting the order or fiat upon the same footing as the Commission now stood, this clause was so prodigal in its power, as to allow the Chancellor to do what he pleased with the fiat, regardless of existing rules.
Mr. Bonham Cartersaid, these existing rules were cases in which former Chancellors had, in the exercise of their discretion, come to certain decisions. There were no statute rules.
Sir Charles Wetherellsaid, certainly there were no statute rules, but there was the usage of two centuries; and they now proposed that the Chancellor should wholly dispense with that usage, and decide wholly at his unlimited discretion. He would not, however, press his objection to a division.
Clause carried.
On the clause relating to the appointment of official assignees being read,
Mr. Warburtonsuggested, that as this and other subsequent clauses might give rise to some discussion, it was advisable that at that advanced hour (half-past two o'clock) the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Lord Althorpassented to the proposal.
The House resumed—the Committee to sit again the next day.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS CONTEMPT BILL.
The Attorney General The Attorney General moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of this Bill, and said, he hoped to be allowed to read this Bill a second time. He moved that it be then read a second time.
Mr. Ruthvenconsidered the Bill most objectionable, as he understood it was intended to have a retrospective operation. He was so decidedly opposed to it, that, if the hon. and learned Gentleman persisted in his motion, he would divide the House upon it.
The Attorney Generalsaid, he hoped the hon. Gentleman would not give the House the trouble of dividing, as he would have ample opportunity of discussing the Bill in the Committee, but he must persist in his motion of carrying through the second reading that night.
The House divided:—Ayes 35; Noes 5—Majority 30.
The Bill read a second time.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time, and passed through the other stages, the Standing Order, being suspended; the Relief and Employment of the Poor, and the Barbadoes Importation; also the Galway Franchise; Arms (Ireland); Prescription. Committed; Valuation of Lands (Ireland); Military Accounts (Ireland), Read a second time; Hop Duties. Read a first time; Distillation (Ireland.)
Petitions presented. In favour of Reform. By Viscount GODERICH, from Inhabitants of Havant and Aldborough:—By Earl GREY, from Stromness, Easter Ross, Salisbury, and Swanwick. By Lord KING, from the Political Society of Warwick, for the abolition of Slavery, and for the diffusion of Useful Knowledge. By Earl GREY, from the Royal Burghs of Scotland, praying for an alteration in the Scotch Reform Bill relating to the disfranchisement of the Fife district of Boroughs. By a NOBLE LORD, from the Rate Payers of St. Pancras, in favour of the Vestries Bill.

BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL.
The Lord Chancellor. —My Lords, I hold in my hand a Petition from a professional gentleman named Richardson, pointing out several abuses in the present system of Bankrupt-laws, and calling on your Lordships to pass the Bill lately introduced to amend them. My Lords, in presenting the petition, I cannot avoid taking advantage of the opportunity it affords me to state, that I have heard with great concern that, owing to misapprehension, some imputations have been thrown upon me—no, I should not state that, for I hope I am above them—but that some cavils have been made out of this House—where I will not say—respecting my motives in bringing forward the Bill to amend and correct the law relating to bankruptcy, which has received your Lordships' approbation, and is now before the other House of Parliament. It has been said by men for whom I entertain the highest respect—and by one, in particular, whom I have every reason to value on account of his professional and other acquirements—that I was establishing for myself the enormous patronage of 26,000 l. a-year. Now, my Lords, it is from an utter ignorance of my disposition and nature, as well as from an

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utter ignorance of the Bill itself, that any such idea caw prevail—for, in place of my creating any such patronage, the Bill absolutely reduces places now worth 35,000 l. to a sum between 17,000 l. and 18,000 l. That, my Lords, is the kind of patronage I take care to secure for myself out of an office which has hitherto enabled the persons holding the Great Seal to provide for the several members of their families, and out of which the family of Lord Thurlow have been in possession of great advantages, having held a sinecure of 10,000 l. per annum for nearly half a century. All of that, my Lords, I have absolutely relinquished; so that if any person who ever held the Great Seal is liable to be charged with a love of patronage and a close adherence to the advantages of his place, I think I am not the person. I have further to observe, my Lords, that several of my predecessors in the office of Lord Chancellor have been enabled to bestow places upon their connexions and relatives of 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. a-year; this also I have not done. It has also been said, my Lords, that I as the Chancellor wish to have a hold over the bar; but I think very little of any such consideration. I wish, of course, to give satisfaction to the Bar; but my great object is, to give satisfaction to the suitors of the Court; and if I succeed in doing that, it will be the only hold which I desire to have on the Court of Chancery. The system of the Bankrupt-laws, which the Bill I introduced seeks to get rid of, certainly gave the Lord Chancellor a hold on the Bar by the disposal of seventy places, which he could dispense as he pleased to young men, who had but just drawn their gowns over their shoulders. That was a sort of patronage which was constantly dropping in, and, for the few months I have held the Seals, I have had no less than six such places at my disposal; but, when the Bill passes, and after it is set into action, I do not expect to have more than eight or ten places to give away all together. And so little do I care for the patronage that the giving away of them will throw into my hands, that I assure you I shall be heartily glad if any person will move, either in this or the other House of Parliament, that the Lord Chancellor should have nothing to do with them; and I dont care if the Lord Mayor and Aldermen of the City of London, or the benchers of any of the Inns of Court, or the Lords of his Majesty's Treasury—
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who will, perhaps be more suitable than the Lord Mayor and Aldermen—shall be intrusted with the disposal of them without my interference or control. It is also said, that I set great store by the Bill, and am very anxious that it should pass, but that my colleagues in the Administration are against it. Now I speak in the presence of my noble friend at the head of his Majesty's Government—certainly a most insignificant sort of person in the Administration—and in the presence of my noble friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department—certainly another most insignificant personage in Administration; yet in the presence of those two most influential of my colleagues do I speak it—and I put it to them if, since I commenced these Law Reforms, I have not explained each of the measures I proposed to introduce personally to them? I ask them if, besides my communications in the Cabinet, I have not gone into the explanation of each measure separately, and in private, both of the principle and the minutest details? And I also ask them, if I have ever met their disapprobation, and if I have not altered one or two points at their suggestion? Because, though I am the only professional man in the Cabinet, I do not wish to stand up too much for my own opinion: and I put it to my noble friends, before your Lordships, if one single tittle contained in these Bills has not met the entire and cordial concurrence of his Majesty's Government? [Hear, from Earl Grey.] I did not mention to my noble friends that I should make any statement of this nature; but having done so in their presence, I confidently appeal to them to support and confirm it. My Lords, it has been said, in another place, that I am desirous of being as dictatorial a Chancellor as was Cardinal Wolsey. To this I will only reply, that I resemble him as much in my notions of British law, as I do in the rest of my conduct and character, and just as much, and no more, than I do in my deportment towards the Monarch whom I have the honour to serve—towards the colleagues with whom I am associated— and towards the people at large. I am most anxious with regard to the passing of this Bill. I do not deny it. I feel the strongest desire—a desire that I shall not lose but with life—to have this Reform become part of the law of the land. There is no sacrifice of private convenience,

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exhausted as I am with incessant labour, that I will hesitate to make to advance it, and I look with confidence to its speedy and successful accomplishment. My Lords, to my infinite astonishment and mortification, I find, that in the opening of the Bankruptcy Court Bill elsewhere, a Budget accompanied it; making a provision for the Lord Chancellor for the loss of emolument and patronage it inflicts upon him. I assure you that was not done with my consent. I knew nothing of it. I only knew that a compensation was to be made I for the family of Lord Thurlow, and for others whose rights were to be affected by the remodelling of the Court, but I had no idea that the Bill was to be clogged with any provision for the Lord Chancellor. I expect compensation, undoubtedly; I will not practise so much hypocrisy as to deny it; but I trust for that compensation to a future measure and to the justice of a future Parliament. Your Lordships are aware that I have brought down the salary of the Lord Chancellor from 16,000 l. a-year to 8,000 l., leaving it to the Legislature to make up a suitable provision in the manner it shall best think fit. Of course I cannot afford to give up all that sum; and, if I could, my successors have a claim to be considered, and I cannot be unjust to them; but I left the arrangement for another Session, as I was anxious that nothing which personally concerned me should clog the Bill in its progress. God forbid that I should not receive, or that I should prevent my successors from receiving, the just rewards attached to the high office I at present fill. It is wholly unreasonable to expect that the Lord Chancellor shall have but 7,000 l. or 8,000 l. a-year, while the Chief Justice of the King's Bench has 10,000 l., his office being for life, while the Lord Chancellor is only appointed during pleasure. I feel assured, however, that the justice and wisdom of Parliament will not permit the office of Lord Chancellor to be reduced in emolument from 20,000 l. to perhaps about 7,500 l. per annum, if it be only on the account of the policy of maintaining the Great Seal upon such a footing as to make it an object worthy of the ambition of lawyers in the very highest practice at the Bar. At the same time I must, repeat, that I postponed the consideration of the retiring pension for the Lord Chancellor, or, of the compensation which he should receive for the reduction of the emoluments
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of his office, under the operation of these Bills, in order that the Bankruptcy Court Bill should not be clogged; for my great object is, to carry this Bill into operation, and to promote that Reform of the Law which I will sacrifice all personal consideration to accomplish. I beg pardon, my Lords, for having intruded upon your time; but perhaps you will agree with me, that when a man has an explanation to make, however safe he may be in the hands of his friends, it is better that he should make it in his own person.
Petition to lie on the Table.

EMBANKMENTS (IRELAND) BILL.
The Duke of Leinster The Duke of Leinster moved the third reading of this Bill.
The Earl of Roden The Earl of Roden moved, that it be read that day six months. In proposing this Amendment, he begged leave to assure the noble Duke, that his opposition to the Bill did not arise from any remarks made by the noble Duke during the progress of the discussion, but from the nature of the measure itself, which appeared to him calculated materially to affect the rights of private property. He regretted that on this account he was unable to support it, as the Bill had been brought forward to furnish employment to the poor of Ireland, who were very much in want of it, and for whose state he had the deepest sympathy. To shew the effects of the Bill as it appeared to him, he would put a case hypothetically. Suppose a man possessed a property worth 300 l. a-year, and his tenants formed a Joint Stock Company. They obtained a commission to proceed with their undertaking from the Lord Lieutenant; they then applied to Government for money to proceed, and all this might be done without the consent of the proprietor. The parties commence the work without reference to the owner, who may have opposed it, but whose land would become liable for the money borrowed, as the money would be advanced only on the security of such land.
The Duke of Leinstersaid, such an undertaking could not be commenced without the consent of the great majority of the landed proprietors in the vicinity.
The Earl of Roden. —Well, then, suppose such a Joint Stock Company fails, who would then be responsible? He apprehended the land would be liable to Government.
The Marquis of Westmeathsaid, he presumed the money would be secured in a manner which would obviate all difficulty, although he was ready to allow, the land might be ultimately liable, as was the case in all assessments of such, a nature. He should have wished to seethe provisions of the Bill less complicated, but at the same time, he could overlook that defect, in the hope that it would tend to furnish employment for the peasantry, which was so very much wanted in Ireland.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he was of opinion a measure of this nature ought to be referred to a Select Committee. The subscription required by the Bill in order to constitute one of these Joint Stock Companies might turn out a juggle, and a lien might be thus obtained upon the land to the amount of the money advanced by Government, by means of an actual conspiracy. Reconsidered the whole principle of the Bill most objectionable.
The Marquis of Lansdownbegged to observe, in reply to the noble Duke, that no works could be undertaken without the consent of the great majority of the lauded proprietors in the neighbourhood, and it, would be found that every necessary precaution had been taken in the Bill to provide against any improper appropriation of the funds supplied by Government: further he wished to observe, that the measure had been thoroughly sifted and examined in the other House of Parliament, and it had there obtained the consent of the principal landed proprietors who were most, likely to be affected by its operations and provisions. It was obvious, that to complete any extensive drainage, there must be a compulsory measure where the consent of many persons had to be procured, or there would be no drainage at, all.
Viscount Lortonsaid, the Bill had been brought forward under the plausible pretext of furnishing employment for the poor: he feared it would fail in that object, while its worst feature, the invasion of private property, would be effectual. On that account he must object to it
The House divided on the Original Motion: Ayes 38; Noes 20—Majority 18. Bill read a third time and passed.