Sitting of 11 March 1831

MINUTES.
New Writs. For Now Romney, in the room of the Hon. ARTHUR TREVOR, accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
Bills. The Corporation Funds, read a second time. To prohibit the Growth of Tobacco in Ireland, for ascertaining the Boundaries of the Forest of Deane, for making a New Street from Waterloo-bridge, to Repeal the Excise Duties on Tallow Candles, read a first time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. SPRING RICE, the value of the Imports into, and Exports from, the Fort and Harbour of Belfast, during each of the fifteen years ending 5th January, 1851; also, an account of the number of Vessels, with the amount of their tonnage, and the number of men and boys employed in navigating the same, that entered inwards, and cleared outwards, at the Port of Belfast, from and to all parts of the world during the same time; also, the amount furnished by the Chairman of the Carrickfergus Forgery Committee, for the expenses of Witnesses:—On the Motion of Lord Viscount ACHESON, the Duties collected on flint, plate, and crown Glass, in England, Scotland, and Ireland, distinguishing the amount paid in each County, for the years ending 5th January, 1829, 1830, and 1851; also, the Drawbacks paid on flint, plate, and crown Glass exported from each country for said years.
Petitions presented. In favour of Reform, by Mr. KENNEDY, from Campbell Town and Kilmarnock:—By Mr. NEELD, from Chippenham:—By Mr. R. TREVOR, from Carmarthen:—By Mr. J. JOHNSTONE, from the Hammermen of Edinburgh, and from the Guild of Stirling:—By Mr. S. RICE, from St. Mary's, Lambeth. For the Repeal of the Assessed Taxes, by Lord MORPETH, from Gisborough, and other places in Yorkshire. For the Abolition of Slavery, by Mr. KENNEDY, from various places in Scotland. By Mr. SHAW, from the Dublin Society for Suppressing Duelling, for measures to prevent that practice. Against any alteration in the Timber Duties, by Mr. KENNEDY, from the Shipowners of Ayr and Irving. By the same hon. Member, from the same place, against the proposed Tax on Steam-Boats; from the Procurators of Irving, against the Stamp Duty on Procurators' Certificates; from Mr. Murray M'Cullock, for an alteration in the Law of Entail; from the Post Masters of Banfshire, for the Reduction of Duties on Post Horses; from the Justices of Peace of the County of Aberdeen, against the Tailzies (Scotland) Bill. Far a General Fast, by Mr. R. HOWARD, from the Inhabitants of Powerscourt. For extending the Galway Franchise, by Lord DUNCANNON, ftom the Protestants of Nun's Island:—By Mr. SPRING RICE, from the Protestants of Rahoon. From the Quakers of Limerick, for the Abolition of the Punishment of Death; and from certain Inhabitants of Limerick and Ennis, for the substitution of Solemn Affirmations in the place of Oaths.

WEST INDIAN TRADE WITH AMERICA.
On the Motion of Mr. Poulett Thomson the House went into a Committee on the Colonial Trade Bill. The right hon. Gentleman then said, that the circumstances connected with this measure had been so frequently detailed to the House, that it would be unnecessary for him to do more than shortly recall them to the recollection of hon. Members. In the year 1826, an Order in Council had
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issued, in consequence of the United States having refused to accede to the proposals made to them in 1822, and under the Reciprocity Acts in 1825, prohibiting all intercourse between the United States of America and our West-Indian Colonies. This prohibition continued until nearly the close of the last year. Different negotiations had subsequently been entered into, which led to the long; correspondence between Mr. Gallatin and the late Mr. Canning-, which was so well known to the House. They ended in an Order of Council, repeating the former Order of Council, and bringing into operation the Act of 1825; and the duties payable under that Act. He was glad that it would be unnecessary for him to enter into any examination of the policy which had produced the unnatural state of things that had lasted for so long a period; but he might observe, having carefully examined the conduct of the United States since 1817, that, in his opinion it would have been better even to have continued the prohibition than to have renewed it on the terms adopted in the last Order of Council. Passing by this, he had next to mention, that when the present Administration came into office they found a bill on this subject lying before the House. That Bill had been called for by the consequences which had resulted from the prohibitory Order in Council, and particularly from the necessity of protecting those interests in our own North American colonies which had grown up in consequence of the prohibition. Upon coming into office, the Administration also found the despatches which had been sent to our colonies, informing the colonists of the nature of the bill which had been introduced; and almost the first documents which met his eyes when he came to the Board of Trade, were protests against the bill from the American Minister, from the West-Indian colonies, and also from the North American colonies. He could not hope, any more than his predecessor, to content all these parties, but he had reason, to believe from communicating with them, that the alterations he had introduced into the schedules rendered the Bill more acceptable to them all, than it was as proposed by the late Government. The principle of the late Government was, to raise many of the Duties on goods imported direct from the United States, and make them permanent, giving at the same time a portion of relief

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by removing the duty altogether from some articles. The object of the present Government had been, to give temporary protection by, higher duties on the produce of the United States, and provide means gradually to revert to the scale of 1825 for all articles on which the duty was not now to be lower than it was then. The schedule of the measure which the present Ministers had proposed in lieu of that which their predecessors had left behind them, had been some time before the House, and the Committee, therefore, would be aware of the difference between the measure now under consideration, and that which had been proposed by the late Government. It remained for him, then, merely to state shortly the grounds of that difference, and the extent to which it went. The first article he would mention was flour, the duty oh which he proposed to leave as it stood in 1825, at 5s. per barrel, instead of 6s. By taking off altogether the duty from Canadian flour, that would give a protection to the produce of our own colonies and our own shipping, amounting to 25 s. per ton, which he considered quite sufficient, and affording great advantages to our shipping, by securing for them the freight of all the American flour that came down the river St. Lawrence. As no wheat went from Canada, he proposed to remove wholly the duty on that article. The duty on shingles which by a bill of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) was 10 s. 6d. and 21 s., he proposed to reduce, as in 1825, to 7s. and 14 s. The best shingles were made from Cypress wood, which grew almost wholly in the south, and as they were much used, he saw no reason for procuring the use of an inferior article by a high rate of duty. On staves he proposed to levy a duty of 25 s. for three years; the right hon. Gentleman having proposed 18 s. 9d.; at the end of that time to lower the dnty to 21 s., and finally to reduce it to 13 s. 9d. the rate fixed in the year 1825. He thought that at present 18 s. 9d. was not in proportion to the protection afforded to other articles. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to levy a duty of 31 s. permanently on yellow and white pine timber; by the present schedule he proposed a duty of 28 s. for three years, then a duty of 25 s., and finally a duty of 21 s., the Sum proposed in 1825. Pitch pine not being exclusively the growth of the northern colonies, he proposed to place on it at once the duty of 1825, of
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21 s. The duty on wood-hoops he proposed should be 5s. 3d. At present a direct import of beef and pork was permitted from the United States, on the payment of a duty of 12 s. the barrel, and live stock was imported duty free. To secure the advantage of this trade to our own colonies, he proposed to remove the duty on beef and pork when imported from them, and allow those articles to be imported duty free. These alterations would, he believed, relieve the West Indies to the extent of 20,000 l. a year, and would afford a greater degree of protection to our North American colonies than the bill of the right hon. Gentleman. To satisfy all the conflicting interests that were concerned in the measure was impossible, but he was able to say, that all the parties were better pleased with his scheme than with that of the right hon. Gentleman. A great advantage would accrue from the arrangement of allowing salted provisions to be imported free of duty, that of getting rid of all the Custom Houses on the St. Lawrence, and opening that outlet to the productions of the States of Maine and of Ohio. In voting for the amendments he proposed, the Committee would only sanction the schedule, and for the duties which were to be increased, he should have afterwards to move Resolutions in a Committee of the whole House.
Mr. Herriesobjected to the Course which the right hon. Gentleman opposite had pursued. The forms of the House would require that they should go into a Committee upon the schedule. It would be more necessary that the forms of the House should not be departed from, because he would venture to say, that no one who had listened to the right hon. Gentleman could understand either the nature of the proposed alterations, or the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman intended to carry them into effect. He should therefore recommend that they should go into Committee upon the details of the schedule, and that when those details were settled, the right hon. Gentleman should ask for leave to bring-in a bill to carry them into effect. The Bill with the alterations, would then be printed and brought fairly before the public; all the details would be fairly discussed and clearly understood, which would not be the case if the right hon. Gentleman were allowed to pursue the course he had commenced. If this advice

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of his were taken, he should feel it the less necessary to state his objections in detail now, and he should be glad to be relieved from this task, for if he were to enter upon it now, he was sure that he should be as little understood as the right hon. Gentleman had been. The real point for the consideration of the Committee was, whether the principle of the bill which he had introduced in November last, and which had been lying on the Table for consideration ever since, should or should not be adopted. It was highly satisfactory to him to find that the present Government had abjured the principles on which they had opposed that bill of his, and that they had adopted the principle of his bill. Whatever deficiency of support the Government might experience from those who had lately supported their other measures, he could assure them that they would find none on this Bill from those who were opposed to them in other respects. The principal alterations in the right hon. Gentleman's schedule were those in the duties upon flour, and staves, and boards. He was very well aware that staves had been placed too low in the schedules of Mr. Robinson in 1822, and of Mr. Huskisson in 1825. Flour and staves were inseparably connected, since a cargo could not be made up without both. He concurred in the propriety of giving a fuller protection to staves; but the connexion between staves and flour being as he had stated it to be, he was not prepared to concur in the proposed alteration in the duty on flour. He was happy to see that the Government was disposed to act on the principle of allowing the produce of the United States to be, imported into the West Indies from our North American colonies at a lower rate of duty, in some instances without paying any duty whatever, than when imported direct from the United States. It might, be said that that was not fair to the United States, but he for one must protest against the United States, or any other State, dictating the terms on which we chose to regulate the intercourse between our own colonies. He was aware that in addressing his Majesty's Ministers he was addressing Gentlemen among whom there was considerable difference of opinion on this subject, unless some of them had greatly altered the opinions which they had formerly expressed. For instance, his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Control had
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read him a long lecture in no very friendly terms of reproof, and had even spoke of his measure in a tone bordering upon indignation. The principle of his measure had, nevertheless, been adopted by the present Government, and he was very glad to find that some of the members of the Government had changed their opinion with regard to it, for he was sure that that principle was a sound and a safe one. He trusted his light hon. friend would on that occasion either retract some of the animadversions his right hon. friend had formerly made on his measure, or manfully oppose it, and shew that merely becoming a member of the Government had not made him change his opinion. He expected that his right hon. friend should do one or the other, or he would certainly depart from his usual candour and fair-dealing. It was a principle which was not consistent with What Were called political economical doctrines, but it was consistent with a much higher doctrine, that of justice, and of giving to our colonies that protection which they had a right to demand at our hands. The schedule of 1825 had got a fair trial. In consequence of the withdrawal of protection, the tonnage between the Canadas and the West Indies in the three years, from 1822 to 1825, had declined from 76,000 tons to 36,000 tons. He complained of the tortuous course of policy which had been adopted by the United States throughout the whole of these transactions and he instanced the tonnage duty which had been placed by them on British vessels as one exemplification of that policy of which the tariff was the completion. The protecting system which had been adopted towards our North American colonies subsequent to the year 1826, had raised the tonnage employed by them in the West-India trade from 36,000 to 100,000 tons. He would ask, should we return to that system which had in three years depressed that tonnage to 36,000 tons? Ought they then suddenly to lay the colonists open to the unlimited competition of the United States? He thought that none but the purest theorists, the most hard-hearted political economists, would call upon them to return to such a system as that. He congratulated his Majesty's Ministers, who, when out of office, had been partly converts to the doctrines of such persons upon not carrying such doctrines into practice when in power. He would not

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detain the House by entering into the details of this measure now, as he should have another opportunity of discussing the matter on a future day. The Bill, as it stood substantially at present, should have his support; and it was with extreme satisfaction he found, that after so long differing from the right hon. Gentleman, that right hon. Gentleman had come back to the principles of this Bill.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonsaid, that he would take the earliest opportunity to move the alterations in the duties which he had stated to the House. He could not avoid remarking, that the right hon. Gentleman opposite had been himself a party to the taking off that protection from the colonies with respect to which he had made complaints against the present Government, for the right hon. Gentleman was a party to the repeal of the Orders in Council by the late Administration. This Bill was intended to benefit the West Indies ultimately by sacrificing something at present. He defended the consistency of the present Government in the course which it had pursued on this occasion. To the principle of affording a certain degree of protection to our colonies, he, (Mr. P. Thomson) was ready to give his entire assent; but they should always take care not to carry that principle too far, and not to afford protection beyond that amount which would be consistent with the interests of the empire generally. The right hon. Gentleman charged his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Control, with inconsistency. He certainly could see no inconsistency in the conduct of his right hon. friend, and should certainly have voted, with him had he been present in the House on that occasion. The division took place on a proposal of the right hon. Gentleman to lay a duty of 1s. 2d.. on wheat, and that duty was actually expunged from the schedule. What his right hon. friend opposed and what he should always oppose, was giving such a degree of protection to one interest as was injurious to the whole of the empire.
Mr. George Robinsoncontended, that the course of policy which had been adopted, both by the late and by the present Government, towards our colonies, had been a most impolitic one. That policy was said to be in accordance with the principles of the late Mr. Huskisson; but he was quite sure that that lamented statesman would not in 1830 (for the re-
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peal of the Orders in Council took place last October) have given his assent to a measure for allowing a direct intercourse with the West Indies to the United States, if at the same time the United States had passed a tariff virtually prohibiting the introduction of British manufactures into that part of America. If nothing had occurred, indeed since 1825, he should not be disposed to complain, but since then the Congress of the United States, had adopted a system of commercial policy, that was directed in a hostile spirit against the trade of Great Britain. His right hon. friend, and other right hon. Gentlemen, seemed to think that their policy would meet the approbation of Mr. Huskisson, were he alive. It was impossible to know, that, but he would take the liberty of reading a short extract from a speech delivered by that statesman in 1828, on his moving for the production of the American Tariff. Mr. Huskisson then said, "whilst iron, cotton, and hardware were rendered liable to duties which almost amounted to a prohibition, being the staples of this country; the production of other countries were, in the same proportion, lowered, evidently shewing an intention to wound and injure, if not altogether ruin, the extensive trade carried on by this country in articles of its own manufacture."* "A man must be blind to the interests of this country who should consent to deprive Government of the means of promptly meeting the effects of such restrictive measures by corresponding regulations.†" "Unless we asserted our dignity and protected our interests what would be thought of our apathy by the people of the Brazils, who received all our goods on the payment of only fifteen per cent."! Mr. Huskisson then commented on the importance of the carrying trade; and speaking of the offer, in 1825, to open a direct trade between America and the West Indies, which America had refused to accept, he added, "For one long year this country submitted patiently, I had almost said too patiently, to the regulation without adopting any retaliating measures. At the end of that period his Majesty was advised to issue an Order in Council, prohibiting the intercourse between America and our West-India possessions. The intercourse was interdicted and then came America with a tardy proposal accepting the terms which
* Hansard, New Series, vol. xix. p. 1770.
†Ibid. ‡ Ibid. p.1771.

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up to the moment of the prohibition, this country had offered to her in vain. The advice for issuing that order was given with reluctance, but if they must be driven to measures unfriendly to commercial intercourse, it became them to persist in such measures with firmness."* In that there was no evidence to suppose that Mr. Huskisson would have patronized the present policy. On the same occasion, the right hon. Baronet, then Secretary of State for the Home Department, said" that he was not prepared to go the length of admitting that even the perseverance of America should not drive us to the adoption of measures of retaliation. It was with no unfriendly voice, that he would say that the policy on which America was now acting was founded in error, and that before long, she would be convinced that she had mistaken her own interest."‡ At that time the right hon. the President of the Board of Control, concurred with the right hon. the Secretary of State and Mr. Huskisson, and there were therefore, the highest authorities against making the concessions which we had made to the Government of the United States. He would ask, why did the Government of this country give to the United States the boon of a direct commercial intercourse with the West Indies, without stipulating, at the same time, that they should allow the introduction of British manufactures into the United States? We gave every thing to them, and they would give nothing to us. He would have said, until you return to the Tariff of 1824, we will not even entertain the question of opening the West-India trade to your shipping. He did not know whether Members had read the correspondence between Mr. M'Lane and Lord Aberdeen, but he had; and he thought it afforded an excellent illustration of American skill and British credulity. Mr. M'Lane began by professing great cordiality, and in stating some general principles in which he cordially agreed. "It should be, he said, the desire, as it is the interest of both countries, to extinguish their causes of mutual bitterness, to correct the errors which may have interrupted the harmony of their past intercourse, to discard from their commercial regulations measures of hostile monopoly, and to adopt instead a system of frank
*Ibid. p. 1774. †Ibid p. 1776.,
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and amicable competition." Unfortunately the acts of the American government did not correspond to Mr. M'Lane's language, and while he professed nothing but liberality, it continued those measures of exclusion and hostility that were intended to ruin our trade; and while its conduct remained the same he could not understand the policy of our taking a single step for the advantage of America. The late Government, however, adopted the views of Mr. M'Lane, and opened the trade to the West Indies, giving up, in fact, to America a part of our own coasting trade. The present Government went further and proposed to take away the protection which our own colonies enjoyed for their timber in order to allow the Prussians and the Norwegians to bring their timber in their own ships into our market. Between both these Governments he saw no succour for the colonies but what God might vouchsafe. To shew what the late Government at one time thought of the trade between the West-Indies and America, he would beg leave to quote a passage from an answer written by Lord Aberdeen in August 17th, 1830, to Mr. M'Lane. His Lordship then said, "It is most essential that his Majesty's Government should not contract, by implication, any engagement towards that of the United States, with respect to alteration of duties, because his Majesty's Government have already had under their consideration the expediency of introducing some modifications into the schedule of duties attached to the Act of 1825, with a view more effectually to support the interest of our North American colonies. To those interests, fostered as they have been by the suspension of the intercourse between the United States and the West Indies, his Majesty's Government will continue to look, with an earnest desire to afford them such protection, by discriminatory duties, as may appear to be consistent with the interests of other parts of his Majesty's dominions." After this, he contended that the present proposed regulations gave the inhabitants of our North American colonies a right to complain. After the correspondence which had taken place between Lord Aberdeen and Mr. Galatin, after the language that had been used by Mr. Huskisson, after the continual protestations of our Government, he must say, that the present measure was dealing very narrowly with

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the colonies. If the trade were thrown open at all, the measure ought to be at least prospective. If the West-India interests took this as a boon, in lieu of a reduction of duties upon sugars, they would find themselves very much mistaken. The West-India islands could be as well supplied by our American colonies as by the United States, but this act would take away employment for 150,000 tons of British shipping, and give it to American vessels. The calculation was, that the West-India islands would save by these regulations an expenditure to the extent of 50,000 l. to the utmost; but the loss sustained by the British shipping interests would be very great. It was clearly shown by returns on the Table, that when the United States were excluded from the trade, the shipping of our own North American colonies increased very rapidly. We were, therefore, by every such measure as that under discussion, increasing the maritime strength of that Power, and decreasing our own. He knew that the right Vice-president of the Board of Trade hon. might call such language inflammatory, but he thought it was justified by the conduct of the Government of the United States. The President in his last message said, "The arrangement secures to the United States every advantage asked by them, and which the state of the negotiation allowed us to insist upon. The trade will be placed on a footing decidedly more favourable to the country than any on which it ever stood." This, it should be remembered, was said in relation to the negotiation in which the President thought he had obtained a triumph over Great Britain. He congratulated the United States on the success and added, "that the prosperity of this country, so far as it depends on this trade, will be greatly promoted by the new arrangement, there can be no doubt. Independently of the obvious advantages of an open and direct intercourse, its establishment, will be attended with other consequences of a higher order." That shewed the estimation in which the Government of the United States held the advantages which we had so unwisely conceded. But the important part of the quotation was those "consequences of a higher order," mentioned by the President which could mean nothing, he' believed, but the increase of the American navy,
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which would be the infallible consequence of our bestowing on the United States a large part of our own trade, and of employment for our own shipping. He was confirmed in this opinion, by the President immediately afterwards recommending the navy to the care of the congress, adding, "that in a few years the Government would be prepared to send to sea on any emergency a powerful fleet of new ships." We had been so long accustomed to the supremacy of the seas, that we were beginning to think that we could keep it against the struggles of all other nations, and without any exertion on our own part; but he thought that a very little examination of the progress of the Americans ought to be sufficient to show that we were called on to make the greatest efforts to be able to compete with them. It should be recollected, that when we were struggling for the liberties of Europe, America threw herself into the scale against us. He was justified, therefore, in supposing that in contributing to foster the naval power of America, we were strengthening a nation that would again be hostile to us, and he owned that he was not without apprehension, in case of another war occurring in Europe, that the American government would declare against this country. He was afraid, that in touching on those topics, he was laying himself open to a charge of il-liberality; but he could with confidence state, that the had the highest admiration for the Americans and their Government. They were every day showing the soundness of their measures and policy; and it was because he feared that we should one day be brought into collision with their power and strength, that he gave those cautions to his Majesty's Ministers. He trusted that he had succeeded in showing that we had employed a very different policy towards America to that which she had pursued towards us. Never had the Americans, in any one instance, yielded a single point to us, but had always shown themselves most pertinacious in advancing their own interests. He would, therefore, speak out boldly at once to America, for she could not pursue a more hostile course than that which she was now pursuing. He objected also to the present measure, that it did not fix the duties at once, but left them open for further change and further discussion, in the years 1834 and 1836. The whole course of our commer-

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cial policy was full of changes. We raised up great interests, and then struck them down, spreading ruin amongst thousands of those who trusted in the Government. The American government acted differently. It thought the manufactures and commerce of America could not flourish without protection, and while we only levied a duty of 18 or 20 per cent on their goods, they levied a duty of 80 or 100 per cent on our produce. The conduct of that government, as to the Sugar duties, shewed by what spirit it was animated. It was proposed to Congress this year to lower the duties on all foreign sugars, which would have benefited the British West Indies; but the anti-English party was so strong, that this proposition was rejected, and the duty on sugar, imported from our colonies, was still 80 per cent. They shut out West-India sugar and rum to protect their own planters and distillers, and we gave them the benefit of a direct trade with our colonies, by which they would enjoy all the advantage of the freight on the cumbrous articles we allowed them to supply us with. In their trade with the West-India islands they would take nothing but specie in return for their produce, and they had always shown a most unconceding disposition in all their negotiations, as was witnessed in their treaty with France, in claiming their losses, —in their demands upon England for the compensation for their slaves carried away from the southern States, — and, lastly, in their pending negotiations respecting the north-western boundary line, by a shifting of which they expect to obtain such great advantages. It was impossible for the Americans to., have shown a more hostile spirit than they had done towards this country, notwithstanding that the English took from them annually to the amount of 33,000,000 of dollars' worth of raw produce. They had done every thing-short of prohibiting the export of their own commodities, and that, the government could not do. The United States could not refuse their raw cottons to this country, for the very existence of the Southern States depended on our taking them. Hitherto, he must repeat in conclusion, we had been going on a wrong system, for we should never have conceded a single point to America without an equivalent. But though this had been our course, he could see no reason why we should not alter it—late as it was in the day. The American ship-
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ping already amounted to 1,640,000 tons, while the English was but 2,000,000 tons; and if the present course were persisted in for five years, he had no doubt that by that time the amount of American shipping would be equal to ours.
Mr. C. Grantthought, that the wisest thing we could do was, to bury in oblivion any hostile feelings that might exist towards America; and he must say, that the President of the United States appeared to him to have acted in the most candid and frank manner. He thought that the late Government had been perfectly justified in opening the trade between America and the Colonies; and he thought that the documents which passed on both sides were highly creditable; and he could not but think, that what had then taken place might be the means of removing any unpleasantness of feeling between the two countries, and draw them together in a closer bond than they had been for the last twenty years. With reference to his opinions in 1828, he must positively assert, that he never had wished that the intercourse with America should not be renewed, and if any record of parliamentary proceedings attributed that to him, it was erroneous. He thought that, renewing their connection with America, they ought to return as speedily as possible to the rate of duties laid down in 1825; and therefore he could not agree with his right hon. friend (Mr. Herries) that the two bills, that of the present Government, and that of the last, were substantially the same; for in very many cases his right hon. friend had proposed a considerable increase on that scale. He (Mr. C. Grant) did not intend to say, that the scale of 1825 was to be the minimum; but he thought, that at all events they ought to come down to that scale as speedily as possible; because, if they did not, they would be making a step, not in advance, but in retrogression.
Mr. Keith Douglaswas glad to hear that the Bill was intended to promote the intercourse between our West-India islands and our North American colonies; but he observed at the same time, that this was to be effected at the expense of those islands. He was aware, however, that they had no alternative but submission; but that being their condition, it was the duty of the mother country to see justice done to all. That the West-India islands found a market for

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their produce in the North American colonies, was, he admitted, an advantage, though he doubted if that compensated the increased prices they would, in consequence of this Bill, have to pay on many necessary articles. For his part, he did not wish to sever the interests of our colonies, and should be happy to see them all united, and their prosperity promoted by the Crown. It was said, that this measure was in principle like the measure that was proposed by the last Administration, but he thought it differed very materially, and in some respects objectionably. It pretended to give protection to the manufacture of staves, but that was to be limited to a short period; and at the same time that this Bill was to protect the Canadian trade, the measure of the noble Lord relative to the Timber Duties would have the effect of displacing 200,000 tons of shipping, in order to place 700,000 l. in the Exchequer. That was inflicting distress on the shipowners. In fact, the Government never took into consideration the interests its own measures had raised up, and which it too lightly abandoned. Under all the circumstances of the case, he hoped that the West-India colonies would, in due time, be deemed proper objects for the calm consideration of the House.
Mr. Courtenaydid not feel inclined to follow the hon. member for Worcester into all his discussions concerning the Order in Council; he only wished to observe, that the hon. Member was in error when he said, that Mr. Huskisson declared that he would never consent to rescind that Order. When Mr. Huskisson was applied to in 1827, he stated that he would not hamper the Government by any such declaration, or impede it in any measure which it might suppose to be necessary to propose to Parliament; but he then said, that he saw no immediate chance of its being rescinded. There was a contradiction between the assertion of his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Control, that this Bill was not like that proposed by the late Administration, and the statement of the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, that it was in principle exactly the same. The right hon. Gentleman, indeed, stated, that the bill proposed by the late Administration was to be permanent, while this Bill was to be temporary; but he had himself stated last November, that the bill then proposed was not to be
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permanent, and that it was founded on the necessity of giving temporary protection to interests which had been raised up by Acts of Parliament.
Sir Henry Parnellobserved, that whatever might be said of others, he still maintained the same principles as in last November. His right hon. friend, the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, had stated, that this was a measure of protection for a particular branch of trade, and, it was therefore, a recurrence to the principles which had been abandoned by Parliament in 1825. Mr. Huskisson then stated, that those principles ought not to be retained any longer than could be helped, and he was sorry that he was obliged to keep up any principles of protection. This was the first Bill, since 1825, which had recurred to those principles of protection that were then abandoned. He was sorry to refer to principles of free trade, particularly because those who took an opportunity of censuring such principles were apt to be cheered by the House. That was partly occasioned, probably, by the details of such subjects not being understood by hon. Members. Had he spoken on the Reform Question, he should have supported it on the ground that the measure proposed would introduce into the House a greater proportion of men than at present who understood such questions, and would attend to them. Hon. Members who spoke against the principles of free trade, and said, that those who supported them overlooked the principles of justice, were, in his opinion, sporting a parliamentary fallacy. While they condemned political economists as visionary and hard-hearted, they were themselves the veriest theorists possible; and to accommodate their theories to their interests or their wishes, they even reasoned falsely from the false premises they assumed. It was said by these Gentlemen, that the interests of the North American colonies must be supported; but, in doing that, the Legislature injured the interests of the public. The protection given in the first instance to the North American colonies came out of the pockets of the West-India planters; but the West-India planters remunerated themselves by raising the price of sugar to the English public. Thus the consumers—the English consumers—were injured by that protection which it was proposed to give to the colonies. For that the British public were taxed.

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In fact, the whole subject was taken up under very narrow views. It was well established by the evidence given before the Finance Committee, that in no branch of the public service could such savings be made as in the government of the colonies. It was stated by the noble Lord (the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs) and the Secretary at War, that if the government of the colonies were placed more in the hands of the colonists, the expense of an army for the protection of them might be saved. He contended, therefore, that those who looked at such questions only as far as they affected the colonial interests took a very narrow view of them. He regretted this measure and all similar measures, because they afforded a justification to the Americans to enforce their Tariff against us. Already these restrictive laws had done our manufacturers a great deal of mischief, and he could not but apprehend that more mischief of the same kind would be done by laying restrictions on the trade of the United States with the colonies. On the whole, therefore, he was decidedly adverse to the present measure, which he considered to be most impolitic as well as most important.
Mr. Stuart Worthyadmitted, that it was very improper, as a general principle, to foster any interests by laws, because the day would surely come when the protection must be withdrawn, and then the difficulty of withdrawing it, and the mischief done, was in proportion to the degree of protection which had been afforded. At the same time, the present question was, how they might best protect interests that Had been called into existence by the laws; and he did not agree with those who thought that the Legislature ought to act without any regard to those interests. If, as the hon. member for Worcester stated, the United States could not supply the West Indies cheaper than our own North American colonies, it was clear that they would not be injured by the change. He certainly was one who viewed with alarm the sudden application of the principles of political economy to our colonies; but he could not suppose that those principles, as far as they were correct should never be applied. The whole question appeared to him one of transfer and navigation, rather than of protection; but he was glad the measure had been discussed, as that
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might lead in time to getting rid of the protection without inflicting injury.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonreminded the House, that the Representative of the West-India interest, and the Representative of the North-American colonies, had both declared that this measure would not be of service either to the West- India or the ' North-American colonies. The Bill appeared to him calculated only to benefit the third party, namely, the people of the United States. The House should, however, recollect what the right hon. member for Harwich had said of the increase and decrease of the trade between our North-American colonies and the West Indies. Perhaps the House was not aware, that at present, the trade between those colonies and the mother country was equal to half the foreign trade of the United States, and the trade between England and her colonies had increased by one-half since 1816. In his view this made that trade of considerable importance, and he could not agree to any measure which might injure it. The exports during the last year to our American colonies, amounted to 2,000,000 l., while those to the Northern States of Europe, did not exceed 600,000 l. He must, therefore, deny the utility of disturbing a trade which was so advantageous to this country. While he was on this subject, he would take leave to ask the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) what was the course the Government intended to pursue with respect to the new Timber Duties. This was the season of the year when the persons engaged in the timber trade chartered vessels to bring home cargoes, and it was of extreme importance to a large body of his constituents that the noble Lord should state distinctly, if he intended to persevere in that scale of duties he had announced.
Mr. Bernalcould not let the discussion terminate without declaring, plainly and openly, that the West-Indians would derive little or no alleviation from their sufferings from this Bill, and that they did not look on any of its provisions as a boon granted to them. It was, in truth, the same Bill which the late Government proposed, with some little difference as to the time when all its provisions were to come into operation. The repeal of the Non-intercourse Act would leave the situation of the West Indies, with respect to the supply of lumber, just the same as before. The planters of the colonies could receive

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lumber, notwithstanding all prohibitions, through the medium of a neutral port. He had himself received lumber at all times, imported into the island of St. Thomas, and from that direct to the British West Indies, which he had been compelled to pay for in hard dollars. The Government might learn from this, how futile it was, to restrain the intercourse between nations, and that no Act of Parliament could have the power to defeat that which the people found necessary to their interest. As to the present Bill, he could only say, that the duties were apparently lessened, but really increased by the operation of its provisions. And so far, therefore, as the benefits of the West-Indians were concerned, he must say, it was mere moonshine. He did not mean to deny, that there was some benefit received from the intercourse between Canada and the West-Indies; for he believed that nearly one-half of the rum, and sugar, and molasses, exported to North America, was consumed by the Canadians. The duties, however, were much too high. Sugar paid, he believed, a duty of half-a-crown a hundred weight; molasses, nine pence; and rum, one shilling a gallon. He knew that the produce of these duties was necessary to enable the Canadas to pay their own expenses; but he thought, that a reduction of these duties should take place as speedily as possible. He concluded by protesting against the use of any language, with respect to the United States, which could in any degree affect the bonds of amity that ought to prevail between great commercial countries.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that the 70,000 l. derived from these protecting duties, was just so much taken from the West-Indians; who paying so much more than they should do for their lumber, were compelled either to suffer the loss themselves, or attempt to charge it on the consumers of their produce. He wished much to know whether the wheat which the Canadians were allowed to import from the United States, was intended to be warehoused for the use of the West Indies; because, as he looked on the Canadas to be the great agricultural colony from which England would soon take her corn and flour, it was necessary to know how this wheat was for the present to be disposed of. As to the duties laid on lumber by the Bill, he saw that many of them amounted to 100 per cent, and he thought they were much too high.
Lord Althorpwould first answer the question of the worthy Alderman (Thompson), by stating at once that the Government did intend to persevere with the propositions respecting the Timber Duties, and that he would bring them under the attention of the House on that day fortnight. With respect to the measure now before them, he cordially agreed with the principles laid down by the right hon. Baronet (Sir H. Parnell), but he must deny that the Government were retrograding in the provisions of this Bill. It was founded on the scale agreed to by the House in 1825; and the only alteration of importance made by the present Government, was, to let in some articles free of duty which were at that time saddled with too high a duty for the interests of the trade of the colonies. He admitted that the Bill did not go so far as might have been desirable with the reduction of duties, but. the Government had made a provision that they should expire gradually, because that would be less injurious to the existing interests, which had grown up under the present laws, than an immediate and total repeal. In consequence of the Non-intercourse Act, capital had been employed to some extent in certain channels, from which it could not be immediately removed without great loss, and it was to avoid this evil that the reduction was made gradual. The hon. member for Worcester (Mr. Robinson) had complained that the colonies would be sufferers by these arrangements, but when the interests of the whole empire were concerned, a particular class could not complain that those interests were not sacrificed for their particular advantage. He regretted much, and deeply, that the Government could not afford to take off the Sugar Duties; but what it had done was intended for the advantage of the colonies, and he believed it would prove so. The noble Lord concluded by declaring, that he thoroughly approved of the principle which had regulated the policy of the country on the subject of prohibiting duties for some time past, and that the departure from them in the present Bill was only for a season.
Mr. Humeprotested against the use of the words perpetual protection by the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, as being contrary to the principles which had now for years regulated the policy of the country. He regretted much to find that the mischief was not confined to words,

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and that several of the duties proposed to be levied under the Bill were a return to that system of prohibition which the House had formally declared its intention to abandon. He believed that no alteration could be made in duties in a Committee, but when the proper time came, he should propose, as an Amendment, to return to the system of 1825. The West-Indians had suffered much from the conduct of the Government, but he feared much that retracing its course would not relieve them. This measure, although good, would not bring back to the West-Indies that great trade in coffee, rum, and sugar, which they once possessed in supplying the United States. Vast quantities of rum, molasses, and sugar, were formerly imported from the West Indies into America, but the people of the United States now distilled their own rum, and imported sugar from South America and Cuba. He did not quite agree with the hon. member for Rochester in all he said, because, if the West-India planters went to St. Thomas's for their lumber, they in this way increased its price from 10 to 16 per cent, without bestowing the least benefit on any interest connected with this country. The right hon. Gentleman below him had spoken with severity of the doctrines of political economy, but he should say, that those doctrines were quite as good as any propounded by that right hon. Gentleman. Ignorance of the mischief which might be occasioned by the measures introduced in the way of meditated improvement, was one of the greatest possible evils in these respects, inasmuch as the influence of Government too frequently gave weight to those suggestions, which finally could not bear the test of trial and practical application.
Mr. P. Thomsoncontended, that the course which Government had thought fit in this instance to pursue, was not a departure from its avowed principles. It should be recollected that our colonies stood in a different position, as respected the mother country, from the colonies of other countries.
Mr. Herriesexpressed himself disposed to leave the defence of the measures which were pursued in this respect by the Government of which he formed a part, in the hands of his successors.
Mr. Callaghanbelieved, that in the present artificial state of the country, it was absolutely necessary that a restrictive
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policy should be adopted with respect to our colonies. The interests of Ireland, with respect to the provision trade, more particularly required that a preference should be given to its exports over those of North America, in respect to beef, pork, and butter.
Mr. Irvingstated, that the reason why the West Indies ceased to export sugar to the United States was, that sugar was so extensively cultivated in New Orleans and Louisiana, that the United States had made themselves quite independent of our colonies. We might open the trade of those islands to the Americans, but they would assuredly take nothing from them except money. On the contrary, the Canadas took a great quantity of the West-India produce, and everything possible ought to be done to foster and encourage that trade.
Mr. O'Connellcontended, that the Irish provision merchant could not at present afford to lose the protection, which he had till now enjoyed in the colonial market, from the rivalry of American imports of the same description as his. According to the Bill then before them, the Americans would supply our colonies duty free by sending their provisions to Canada.
Mr. P. Thomson—It was not intended to alter the existing duty of 12 s. per ewt. on direct imports from the United States. That would still remain as a protection for Irish produce.
Mr. Humeobserved, that if the hon. and learned member for Waterford complained that the removal of the protecting duty was a hardship to Ireland, he ought to remember that there was another party to the transaction—namely, the colonists, who could not fail to think themselves ill-used if the restrictive system were continued.
Schedule passed pro formà, and the House resumed.

MINISTERIAL PLAN OF PARLIAMENT-ARY REFORM.
Sir C. Wetherellwished to know from the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether it was intended to bring in the Bill for Parliamentary Reform, leave for which had been obtained on Wednesday.
Lord Althorpsaid, he had expected that it would have been ready before that hour, and would have been brought in that evening; but he now found that it could not be brought in before Monday.
Sir C. Wetherellexpressed his surprise that a plan of Reform on which they were told the Cabinet were unanimous,—a plan which had undergone the longest discussion in that House that had ever been given to any measure ever before submitted to the consideration of Parliament— should not be ready two days after that on which leave had been given to bring it in. Was he to understand from this, that the plan was not yet prepared; or was it to be a different plan from that which they had had so long under discussion?
Lord J. Russellsaid, the plan was ready, though it had not been copied out in sufficient time to have it brought in that evening. It would, however, be presented on Monday, and be printed, and ready for delivery on Tuesday morning, which was as early as Members could have it if it were brought in that evening.
Sir C. Wetherellobserved, that if the plan had been prepared at the time the motion was made for leave to bring in the Bill, as the House had a right to expect, the draught of the Bill ought to be ready now. ["no, no".] Hon. Members might cry "no," bat he said yes; and he would contend, that the House and the country were not fairly treated by the delay. He repeated, the House and the country were treated badly by this delay.
Lord Althorpsaid, he had such respect for the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, that he should regret coming under his lash, but he did not think that he had been deservedly brought under it in this instance; or, if the hon. and learned Gentleman thought so, he hoped the House and the country would think differently. It was no just ground of charge against Ministers that they were not quite ready to lay the draught of a measure of this importance before the House the moment they obtained leave to bring it in. The general plan of the measure was prepared and agreed upon before the motion of his noble friend was submitted to the House, but it might have been necessary, without any change of that general plan, to alter some of the details before the Bill was laid on the Table of the House.
Sir C. Wetherell—I now beg distinctly to ask the noble Lord, when is the Bill to be brought in?
Lord Althorp—On Monday.

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS.
Lord Althorpmoved, the Order of the
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Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair.
Mr. Attwoodsaid, he was anxious to take this opportunity of saying a few words on a subject of great importance to the country. It was now nearly a month since the noble Lord had brought forward his plan for making several great changes in the duties affecting some important branches of the commerce of the country. On that occasion he submitted certain intended changes in the amount of duties, particularly those on timber. The plan had no sooner been submitted to the House, than it created a very great sensation in the commercial world. It was then suspended; and though the public were most anxious to ascertain the decision of Parliament with respect to it, the noble Lord now intimated that the measure was to be further postponed for a fortnight. Such delay as this, on a matter where such extensive commercial interests were depending, was most ruinous in its effects on large capitals embarked in the trade which was to be affected by the proposed change in the duties. He alluded now to the proposed changes in the duties on timber. Not less than 9,000 tons of shipping, ready to sail for the Canadas in this trade, with cargoes exceeding 100,000 l., were delayed by this suspense. This, he must say, was not treating the House or the country fairly. Ministers ought to be ready to come forward with the measures which they opened to the country, as soon after as possible, to prevent that uncertainty, than which nothing was more injurious in matters of extensive trade. An hon. friend of his had a petition to present from a large body of merchants interested in this trade, and he had waited day after day to hear the farther details of their plan from Ministers; but now, as these were to be further postponed, the discussion must come on on the petition—a course most inconvenient to those concerned, who as yet knew only a part of the plan that was to be brought forward. If the petitions of the people were not to receive more attention than this, the best Reform which Ministers could introduce, would be that by which greater attention might be paid to the grievances of the people. It would be more effectual than that plan by which so much of the time of the House had been

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already occupied. The grievances of the people ought to be attended to before any supplies were voted; and if his hon. friend who had the petition to which he had alluded would now move, as an amendment to the Motion before the House, that this petition be read and discussed, instead of going into the Committee, he (Mr. Attwood) would readily second it. The petitions of the people had the first claim on the attention of Parliament. Already had 2,000 of them, complaining of and praying for redress of grievances, been presented, and he thought Ministers would have been much more usefully employed in reading and classifying them, and seeing what it was for which they prayed, than in bringing forward a measure of Reform, as it was called, in which no one grievance of the people was redressed. But a noble Lord had asked, if that House occupied itself in reading the petitions of the people, what time would there be for passing Acts of Parliament? He would answer, that if fewer Acts of Parliament were passed, it would be so much the better for the country. There were already a host of Acts passed for bettering the condition of the poor, and yet that condition was every day becoming worse. The noble Lord, the Under Secretary for the Colonies, proposed to add to these Acts one for bettering the condition of the poor, one promoting emigration; but if he examined before he legislated, he would find that six Acts had already been passed on the subject, each of which seemed to leave the condition of the poor worse than before. He must again repeat, that the plan of Reform brought forward did not propose to redress any grievance of which the people complained; while that and other measures relative to the finances of the country proposed by Government, would tend to the ruin of all classes. The Ministers had failed in showing that they were men of practical knowledge as statesmen and political economists, they had delayed proceeding with their plans, on which, if the House had been earlier called to decide, it would have become necessary to have a different set of men as advisers of the Crown.
Lord Althorpadmitted that delay in matters affecting commerce would be injurious; but the parties interested in the timber trade could not, with justice, complain of any inconvenience from the delay to which the hon. Member alluded, because,
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at the very opening of the plan, it was stated that the new duties were not to take effect before the 10th of October; so that all the tons of shipping which the hon. Gentleman had mentioned would have full time to go to Canada and return to this country before that period. The changes with respect to the other duties would not be delayed, for they were proceeding with them as rapidly as the other business of Parliament would permit. As to the petitions of the people, he should be glad if the business of the house would admit of having them more fully read and discussed, but the arrangement for not bringing forward petitions after five o'clock was made before he and his friends came into office. He did not find fault with that arrangement, as he thought that some arrangement of the kind was unavoidable; for it must be obvious, that if the House occupied itself in reading and discussing all the petitions which came before it, it would have no time for discussing measures to redress those grievances of which the petitioners complained. The hon. Member had introduced the subject of Reform, but that had so recently undergone a full discussion, that the House would excuse him if he refrained at that time from following the hon. Member into it.
Sir C. Wetherellcontended that the course pursued by Ministers in opening the Budget of the year, and then suspending some of its most important parts, was unprecedented. It was too bad that an Administration should open the Financial Budget, then suspend it, to bring forward a plan of Reform, with which also they were not ready. So that there was now before the House a suspended Budget, and a suspended plan of Reform. The delay in the noble Lord's plan of duties, particularly in those intended with respect to timber, was very generally complained of amongst commercial men. He had had several representations made to him from most respectable merchants in the City, on the subject. Why they should have addressed themselves to him, — one of those rotten Members who were sought to be got rid of by the noble Paymaster's plan of Reform,—he knew not, but so it was. Those respectable parties complained that their business was at a stand, and they could not tell what course to pursue in the uncertainty as to the measures which Parliament might finally adopt with respect to those Timber Duties. The fur-

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ther delay now intended by the noble Lord was an aggravation of the original suspension. He did not state these things with any view to harass or impede the noble Lord (Althorp), No man was more disposed to support the Government of the noble Lord than he had been at first, and he was anxious to express to him and the right hon. Secretary for Ireland his thanks for the vigour and firmness they had displayed in carrying on the King's Government, particularly in Ireland; but when he found that among the measures proposed by the noble Lord were two,— one involving a breach of duty to the colonies, and the other a breach of national faith, — he was determined not to give his support to the noble Lord's Government any longer. On the contrary, he would support any motion which should compel the noble Lord to bring forward the plans which he had opened to the House, that the sense of the House might be taken on them.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that he did not rise to prolong this conversation, but he felt it necessary to state, that he also had had applications from many merchants, who complained strongly of the suspense in which they were kept by the delay in the measures opened to the House by the noble Lord, particularly with respect to the Timber Duties. It was true the proposed duties were not intended to come into operation before the 10th of October, and that vessels now ready would have time to go out and return home by that time; but then there was an uncertainty as to what would be the state of the trade, as far as regarded the duties, by that time. It was not and could not be known to the merchants whether Parliament would ratify the noble Lord's plan. But the delay with respect to these duties was not the only cause of anxiety. There were some who looked upon the whole proceeding with some degree of alarm, for it appeared that the sum on which the noble Lord calculated, as the produce of the new duties on Timber was 600,000 l., which was to supply a part of the large amount of taxation proposed to be taken off; but it should be considered that the new duties not commencing till the 10th of October, only a very small part of the expected amount could come into the account of the present year, and when it was recollected that there was only a Small surplus revenue from the last year,
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the apprehension was not ill-grounded, that there might be a deranged Budget at the close of the year.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that the persons engaged in the timber trade had had ample notice that the duties were not to commence before the 10th of October, and as the vessels which sailed for Canada went about this time, and could be back before that period, it could make no difference to their speculation whether the measure of the noble Lord were proceeded with now, or at a later period of the Session.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that what the merchants wanted was some guarantee for the first step.
Mr. Herriessaid, that he also had had many applications from parties expressing their great anxiety as to the delay in the noble Lord's plan, which he must say was quite unprecedented. He did hope, therefore, that the noble Lord would reconsider the subject, and bring forward the Timber Duties earlier than the time he had fixed. Before he sat down, he would wish to ask the noble Lord one question with respect to the Timber Duties. He had heard that the proposed alteration was not intended to apply to Ireland. He wished to know how that was.
Lord Althorpsaid, that no alteration of duties with respect to timber from the Canadas to Ireland was intended.
Mr. Huntsaid, that when he had been only a fortnight in that House, he complained that sufficient attention was not paid to the petitions of the people, and he was now glad to find that he had got two such able allies in advocating those petitions as the twin members for Borough-bridge. He admitted, that the Reform plan brought forward did not contain what the great mass of petitions presented to that House had prayed for; at the same time he must say he did not oppose the Bill. The petitions, by the way, were not as numerous as the hon. Member (Mr. Attwood) had stated. They were not. 2,000, but somewhere about 646. They complained of many grievances; they prayed, in addition to Reform—for Retrenchment — for Reduction of Salaries and Pensions, of Sinecures and Allowances—for the shortening of Parliaments, and many for the Ballot; but only two of all these—that from Exeter, and that from Bristol—prayed alone for anything which

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was granted; but he was bound to add, that all over the country, in every parish of the metropolis, in every town and village throughout the land, the people were running mad in favour of the Ministerial measure. He had letters every day, and sometimes twenty-five over his number, which was very expensive, giving him accounts of meetings to support Ministers. Never was there greater unanimity; but he should be a hypocrite if he did not declare, that although he would support the Bill, he should not be satisfied with it, as it did not concede any of the favourite objects of his life—neither retrenchment nor reduction of salaries, nor abolition of sinecures and pensions, nor extension of the suffrage (indeed, in many instances, the Bill operated as a curtailment of the suffrages), nor the Vote by Ballot; nor, in short, any one of the objects he had most ardently desired. He would not, therefore, hesitate to say, that even after this Bill was passed, he would go forth and endeavour, out of that House and in that House, to get a great deal more for the people.
The House went into a Committee.

SUGAR DUTIES.
Lord Althorpdeclared, he felt most sincerely for the distress of the West-India interests; and if anything could be done to relieve them, without interfering with other interests, it would be the duty of Government to propose it, and of the House to give it most serious consideration. It was necessary to look upon taxation, as it pressed on the community generally. He felt that a small reduction of the Sugar Duties would be of no use to the West-India interests, nor to the consumed. And as to a large reduction, were it even beneficial, he considered that the taking off the duty on sea-borne coals was a much greater boon to the people. But he was not sure that even a large reduction would be of use; the remedy must come in some different manner. The evils of the West-India interests were too deeply situated for any palliative. As long as the consumption of the country could not absorb all our colonial sugars, so long must the price in our market be regulated by the price abroad. Under these circumstances, Government felt it was impossible to propose any effectual remedy: and having stated this, it only remained for him to add, that the Government did not intend to propose any alteration
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in the annual duties imposed by the Act of last Session. These duties were reduced last year in a small degree, but it was attended with no beneficial effect except to the retail dealer. The noble Lord then moved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that towards making good the Supply granted to his Majesty, the different Duties on Sugar and Molasses, imposed by the Act of last Session, and the bounties granted thereon, shall be further continued for the space of one year."
The Marquis of Chandossaid, he gave the noble Lord full credit for his desire to relieve the West-India interests from the dreadful state of distress under which they were at present labouring. He felt, however, that he should not do his duty if he did not bring under the notice of the House the situation in which the West Indies were placed. And he should consider it advisable to move the voting of a relief to this interest, as he did last year, when it was his fortune to divide in a minority. He thought there were modes of relief; and he trusted, if they were so considered by his Lordship, he would not hesitate to adopt them. There was, in fact, great and lamentable distress in the colonies; and if it continued, no one could answer for their security. The noble Lord concluded by moving as an Amendment, "That all Brown Muscavado and Clayed Sugars, imported from the British possessions in America and the Mauritius, should be imported at a duty of 20 s. per ewt."
Mr. Bernalsaid, that he heard with regret the declaration of the noble Lord, that he could not consent to a reduction of the Sugar Duties; but as that was the case, he trusted that some relief would be afforded in another way. The noble Lord knew that the West-India interest might be much benefitted, if he would permit their sugars to be used in the breweries or distilleries of England. It was true that the landed interest might feel somewhat jealous of such a proposition; but he believed, that if they did, it would be without any great reason; for, in his opinion, they would not be sufferers by the measure. At the present moment, barley was introduced from the Continent for use in our breweries and distilleries; and if the proposition he submitted were adopted, the only change would be, that the sugars of the West-Indies would be substituted for that foreign barley, and the barley produced at

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home would continue to be used to the same extent as at present. If, therefore, the noble Lord was not prepared to concede the reduction of duties, as proposed by the noble Marquis, he ought to allow the introduction of sugars for the use of the breweries and distilleries. If the noble Lord did not hold out some hope of the admission of sugars for these purposes, he should feel himself compelled to vote for the Amendment. If sugars were not admitted, perhaps the noble Lord might permit the introduction of molasses for the use of breweries and distilleries. The present duty on sugar was 24 s. per cwt., and the amount of duty upon twenty hogsheads was 360 l. But the West-India planter was placed in this unfortunate predicament, that he was obliged to pay the duty immediately the sugar was sold. He sold it, however, on credit, and before he received his money the purchaser might fail, and he lose both the value of his sugar, and the duty he had paid to the Government. To be relieved from that risk would be a great benefit. He did not press the noble Lord for the reduction of this duty, because the noble Lord had told them distinctly, that at this moment the Government was not in a situation to spare the amount of the duty, and because he did not wish to do anything to embarrass the Government, but he thought that some relief ought to be afforded. He agreed with the principle, that when the public interest was made out to be on one side, private interest, if opposed to it, must give way; but then the public interest must be clearly made out to justify a Government in calling on a body of people for the sacrifice of their private interests. He did not think that it had been made out in this manner on this occasion, at least so as to prevent the hope of relief on the part of the West-India interest. He trusted that the noble Lord would take this matter into his serious consideration.
Mr. H. Davisagreed with the proposition of the hon. member for Rochester. If the duty was reduced, there would be a larger consumption of sugar, and the revenue would not suffer to the extent supposed. The noble Lord, if he could not admit the sugars into the breweries, ought at least to allow them to be introduced into distilleries.
Lord Althorpassured the hon. member for Rochester, that he had taken the introduction of sugars into breweries and
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distilleries into his serious consideration. The introduction of sugars into breweries and distilleries had not been permitted since 1812, and then only sugar had been permitted. With respect to breweries, if sugars were admitted, they would displace malt, and at the present moment the malt trade was improving, and the revenue from it was increasing very much. He feared he should hazard that revenue, which was one of the most important, if he consented to the proposal of the hon. member for Rochester. The revenue on malt this year would, he believed, exhibit an increase of 800,000 l., and at the present time he should not be justified in putting it into hazard. He had already made inquiries into the matter, and was aware that the landed interest would at this period of the year be but little interfered with by the admission of sugars for the purposes of the distilleries, because at the present moment they had not a large stock of barley on hand; but it would have some influence on their welfare next year. It was not entirely, however, their interest that was to be considered at this moment, because that would be but very slightly affected, but the interest of the revenue which did not permit him to agree either to the proposition of the noble Lord, or to that of the hon. Member.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, that if the noble Lord was correct in his estimate of the increase of Malt Duties during the present year, he would surely be able to afford relief to the West-India interest by taking off the duty in the manner proposed by the noble Marquis, since that increase would more than cover any deficiency that might arise in the revenue from the proposed reduction. But he begged to state most distinctly, that in his opinion there would be no such deficiency, for the increased consumption of sugar would fully make up for the reduction of the duty. He feared that the noble Lord had forgotten the principles on which they were accustomed, when they both sat on the other side of the House, to argue these. questions, or he must feel pretty well assured that the revenue would not suffer in proportion to the reduction of the duty. If, however, he could formerly have had any doubt upon the subject, he would find in the events of the two last years a sufficient security that an increase of consumption, and a proportionate increase of revenue always followed a reduction of

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duty. The noble Lord ought either to reduce the duty, and thus afford relief to the West-India planters, or he ought to admit sugars into breweries and distilleries, and one way or the other the West-India interest would be benefitted, and on their behalf he appealed to the favourable consideration—he might almost say, to the pity—of that House.
Mr. Irvingpreferred the introduction of molasses into breweries and distilleries, to the reduction of duty. He wished also that rum should be admitted at the same rate of duty as that paid on British spirits.
Sir E. Carringtonsaid, that some relief ought to be afforded to the West-India interest, if the House expected them to do what they had been repeatedly called on to do. That House had passed Resolutions, calling on the planters to instruct the negroes as well as to feed and clothe them; but it was impossible for the planters to do that unless relief was afforded to them. He hoped some means of doing that might be found, which he assured the House, was absolutely necessary, in order to enable them to improve the condition of the negroes, as that House desired, and as the planters wished.
Mr. Benettsaid, he should prefer the proposition of the noble Marquis to that of the hon. member for Rochester, if the revenue of the country would permit the reduction of the duty, for the latter would inflict an injury on the landed interest of this country for the sake of the West-India interest; and at a moment like this, when the landed interest were suffering severely, he did not think it fair to relieve the West-India interest at their expense. The West-India planters seemed to forget that the landed interest had to support the poor and the Church, and were also subject to numberless other burthens, from which they required relief instead of having in addition their market destroyed.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonasserted, that the interest of the West-India planters had been sacrificed more than that of any other body of men in the empire. He was sure that the revenue would not suffer by the proposed reduction of duty, while great relief would be afforded to the consumer. He should therefore vote for the Amendment,
Mr. Humeput in a claim on behalf of the people of England, for a reduction of these Sugar Duties, and he was satisfied,
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that if it were granted the noble Lord opposite would suffer no diminution of revenue on that account. The Government was, indeed, pledged to make the reduction, for the duty was a war duty, and when imposed, it was understood to be imposed only for war purposes. He asked the noble Lord what had been the amount of the falling off in the revenue on sugar daring the last year? He believed, that the falling off, if any was very trifling, and had been occasioned less from the reduction of duty than from other causes, among which was a short supply of sugar arising from a deficient crop.
Mr. Maberlythought it was not fair to deal with the noble Lord in the abstract in this matter, after he had said he had reduced the duty as much as he could. The question, however, was not one affecting the West-India interest alone, for all duties fell on the consumer, and the matter, therefore, chiefly related to him. It might be true, that the introduction of sugars into breweries and distilleries would afford relief to the West-India interest, but then it appeared that there were other interests that would be injured, and these must be consulted.
Colonel Daviessaid, it was true the duty was paid by the consumer, but still, if that duty was too high, the amount of the consumption of the taxed article would be less, so that the producer would suffer. The duty might, it was plain, be so high as to amount to a prohibition which would deprive the consumer of a little enjoyment, but would actually ruin the producer. He thought, as relief was necessary, it was the duty of the Government to reduce its expenses, which he and his hon. friend who spoke last knew could be done, and give that relief to the West-Indians which they prayed for.
Mr. Keith Douglassupported the proposition for the reduction of the duty. He admitted, that it was possible the produce of the Malt Duties might be somewhat injured by the introduction of sugars or molasses into breweries, but that could not be the case if sugars were allowed to be employed in our distilleries, where they would only supersede foreign barley. The West-India interests loudly called for relief, and he hoped the noble Lord would re-consider the subject.
Mr. Whitmorecould not vote for the Amendment of the noble Marquis, although

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he lamented deeply the distresses of the West-India interest, and should be happy were it possible to relieve them. He feared, however, that assistance could not be afforded with due regard to the welfare of the other great interests of the country. The distresses of the planters arose out of no law, and could be remedied by no law passed in this country.
An hon. Member contended, that Ministers had reduced taxes to the utmost extent that could be afforded, and therefore, though he had formerly voted for a reduction of the sugar duties, he could not then vote for the proposition of the noble Marquis.
Sir F. Burdettobserved, that it was hard upon the noble Lord, who had been only a short time in office, to be so severely pressed. In the course of a few months, the present Administration had afforded more relief than the last. Administration in about as many years. He agreed that the West-India interest was of great importance; and if it could be established that the revenue would not suffer by the proposed reduction, Ministers ought, and he had no doubt they would be most happy to adopt the plan. It had always been their wish, he believed, to relieve the people whenever it could be done without too great a sacrifice. It was fit that some-little patience should be exercised, and he had no doubt that the public would benefit by the forbearance. No partial measure of this description could give general relief, but he was very willing to acknowledge that the claims of the West-India interest ought not to be lightly passed over. If the present Government had even common sense, to say nothing of integrity, they would adopt the Amendment of the noble Marquis, or some corresponding measure, the moment they found it practicable.
Mr. Goulburnwas satisfied, that the proposed reduction could not be made; but he thought, nevertheless, that the West-India interest had a more just claim to relief than that of the classes to whom the noble Lord, in his Budget, had paid more attention. When he looked at the amount of taxes already reduced by the noble Lord, he was quite alarmed; he saw that revenue had been relinquished to the extent of 1,740,000 l., while means of supplying the deficiency were only found to the extent of 800,000 l., leaving 940,000 l. deficiency, and how that was
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to be supplied he knew not, especially when the surplus revenue was only calculated at 300,000 l.
Lord Althorprecalled the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact, that when he (Lord Althorp) stated the Budget, he had not taken credit for any increase in the revenue from the greater productiveness of certain taxes, particularly the Malt Tax, from the change in the law relative to beer. The right hon. Gentleman had himself calculated upon an increase before he left office. At that moment, too, he (Lord Althorp) had the advantage of knowing what had been the produce of the Revenue during the last two months, and he therefore did not in the slightest degree participate in the apprehensions of the right hon. Gentleman. In the reduction of the duty upon Tobacco, he had calculated upon the increase of the revenue from the diminution of smug-ling; but the same reasoning would not apply to any reduction of the duty on sugar. It was very true that the reductions of last year had occasioned a small diminution of revenue; a further reduction in the duty on sugar might, to a certain extent, increase consumption; but unless that increase were to a great extent, the revenue would lose more than, in the present state of the Government, could be afforded. Having given the different items the best considerations in his power, before he brought on his Budget, he thought he had selected those articles for reduction of duty which would afford the greatest degree of relief to the people.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that he could not vote for the Amendment, but he did not see sufficient ground for refusing to allow the use of sugar and molasses in the breweries and distilleries.
Mr. Huntsupported the Amendment, because a reduction of the duty on sugar would be a great advantage to the lower orders. The hon. Baronet, the member for Westminster, being a great landed proprietor, had called upon the country to have patience; that might do for him, but it would not do for the people. When the hon. Baronet said that great reductions had been made, he seemed to have discovered a mare's nest.
The House divided. For the original Motion 147; For the Amendment 49— Majority 98.
Resolution agreed to, and the House resumed.

REFORM—EXPLANATION.
Lord Morpethpresented several Petitions from Halifax, Wakefield, and other places in the West Riding of Yorkshire, in favour of Retrenchment and Reform. He stated the prayer of these petitions generally, because they had been agreed to before the announcement of the great measure of Reform brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers.
Colonel Sibthorpavailed himself of that opportunity to correct some gross and unwarrantable misrepresentations which had appeared in the public press respecting his sentiments and his conduct. He was represented, to have said, that he would give his most strenuous opposition to the second reading of the Reform Bill. He had said no such thing. He had said, that he would not oppose this Bill in its first stage, because he thought that the country ought to have an opportunity of making itself acquainted with the details of it. He had likewise said, that though friendly to Reform, he would not pledge himself at that moment to support the details of the Bill. In another paper it had been stated, that he was the nominee of Lord Monson for the city of Lincoln. This was a gross falsehood. He was an independent Member, freely elected by the people, and he was not, nor would he condescend to be, the nominee of any man. It had likewise been said, that his constituents, being 1,300 in number, were all open to the highest bidder. This was the most gross and unwarrantable falsehood of all. His constituents were as honest and independent a body as any constituency in the whole country.

MINUTES.
Bills. The Royal Assent given to the Pensions Duties, the Exchequer Bills, the Consolidated Fund, the Transfer of Aids, the Judgement and Execution, the Postmaster General, and the Richmond Asylum.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of the Earl of HADDINGTON, the number of Degrees taken at the Universities of Edinburgh, Glasgow, St. Andrew's, and the two Colleges of Aberdeen, since 1850.
Petitions presented. In favour of Reform, by Lord DACRE, from Bishopsgate-street Ward, and from three Parishes of Hertfordshire:—By Lord KINO, from Saltash, Long Sutton, Grantham, and Falkland:—By Earl SPENCER, from Market Harborough, and the Renfrew Political Union:—By the Earl of GLENGALL, from Clanwilliam: —By Lord BELHAVEN, from several Parishes in Scotland:—By the Duke of AROY LE, from Campbell's Town:—By the Earl of Rosebery, from the Convenor of the Trades, and half the Members of the close Corporation of that City, and from the Heritors and Commissioner of Supply of Linlithgowshire. For a Revision of the Tithe Laws, by Lord KING, from Melsonby:—By the Earl of GLENGALL, from Tamlaght Finlagan. For a Repeal of the Union, by Lord FARNHAM, from Headford:—By Lord KING, from St. Mary, Kilkenny:—By the Earl of GLENGALL, from Caspell. For the Repeal of the Duty on Sea borne Coals, by Lord KING, from Bridport, Beaminster, Charraouth, Bishopsgate-street Ward, and several other places. By Lord BELHAVEN, from the Post Masters of Glasgow, for a Reduction of the Duty on Post Horses and Stage Coaches. For the Abolition of Slavery, by the Duke of GORDON, from the County of Aberdeen:—By the Marquis of BUTE, from Merthyr Tidvill and Dowlass: — By the Earl of RODEN, from certain Dissenters of Dublin. By the Earl of WHARNCLIFFE, from Mr. Golding, of Ditton-place, Kent, against the Game Laws. Against the proposed Alteration of the Timber Duties, by the Marquis of BUTE, from Shipowners at Cardiffind Greenoek:—By Earl STANHOPE, from the Shipowners of Hull. Complaining of pistress, and praying for Relief, by the same noble Earl, from the Landowners and Occupiers of Brenchleyr—By the Earl of GLENGALL, from the Labourers of Navan. By the Bishop of LONDON, from the Managers of the Savings' Bank at Chelmsford, for an Alteration in the Savings' Bank Act.

CLERKENWELL CHURCHES.
Lord Kingstated, that he had in his hand a Petition from the Churchwardens, and others, of the Parish of St. James, Clerkenwell, to which he begged leave to call their Lordships' attention, before they proceeded to the Order of the Day on the Church Building Bill. The Petitioners complained of the conduct of the Commissioners for the building of new Churches, in inflicting on the parish a new Church, which was quite uncalled for and unnecessary. Of course, he had no inform-
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ation on the subject than what he derived from others; but the petitioners stated, that there were already in the parish three churches, in each of which there were a number of seats unlet. In St. James's Church there were 409 seats unlet; in Pentonville Chapel, 203 unlet; and in St. John's Church, 150 unlet; making in all, 762 seats unlet. The churchwardens of St. James's had objected to the building of the last new church, and they were, therefore, much surprised, when they found that the Commissioners had begun to build another, and they remonstrated against it without effect. In another parish in the neighbourhood they had, in the same manner, begun to build a new church, and the people of that parish remonstrated, and the building in that instance was stopped: and yet the petitioners said, that when they applied to the Commissioners, and remonstrated, their application was treated with contempt—that was what they stated. There were certain circumstances likewise to be attended to; for in one of these churches there was a very popular preacher, and a greater number of people attended in consequence—some of them being from the neighbouring parishes, and yet, notwithstanding this, there were a number of seats unlet. The Commissioners proceeded on the principle of the amount of population, but that was a very uncertain and precarious criterion, for a great portion of the population might be Dissenters. And then the parish had already been put to an enormous expense, and was obliged to pay not less than 2,000 l. annually, on account of the churches. In the new churches, the gross amount of the pew rents went to the preacher, and the parish was left to pay the sexton's salary, and other incidental expenses. That really appeared not to be just, for it ought to be the nett surplus of the pew rents, and not the gross amount, that should be given to the preacher. The petitioners stated, that they had expended 3,000 l. on the decorations of the last-built new church of St. Mark's, that now there was very great difficulty in raising the poor-rates, and that they were unwilling to be loaded with an additional expense on account of a new church, when it was not necessary-. The petitioners stated, that they had the strongest desire to promote the interests of morality and religion, and that they

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only objected to the other church, because it was unnecessary. The petition was signed with about 1,800 names, and the petitioners prayed relief in this matter.
The Bishop of Londonthought himself called upon to say a few words on this subject, as the parish was in his diocese. The population of that parish was 52,000, and if the Commissioners did, in building the new churches, act on the principle of population, they did so by the direction of the Legislature; and if there was anything erroneous in it, they were not in fault. He did not know whether any remonstrance had been made by the petitioners against the building of St. Mark's Church; but, were he to judge from circumstances, he should say that the remonstrance, if made, could not have been very strong: for they had, as they rightly stated, expended 3,000 l. on the decorations of that church, which was more than was required. If in some of the churches the seats were not all occupied, it was, perhaps, owing to some temporary circumstances; for that of St. Mark, as soon as it was built, was filled to overflowing. Soon after, a representation was made by many respectable inhabitants of the parish to the Commissioners, that there was still great need of another church, for the accommodation of those who resided about Battle-bridge, a circumstance which was sufficiently obvious, and this representation was accompanied with the offer of a site for another Chapel. The Commissioners were, at the time, rather straitened for funds, but they did, in the execution of what they considered to be their duty, make preparations for erecting a cheap chapel, for the accommodation of the poor. All this was well known, and yet no remonstrance had been made till the labourers had been engaged, and the work, in fact, been begun. It was true that then a remonstrance was sent to him, which he forwarded to the Commissioners, and it was then represented to the parties that they had come too late, but the remonstrance was not treated with disrespect. The noble Baron had stated the facts in a very temperate manner, and no blame could attach to him or to the petitioners for bringing forward their complaints. The Commissioners, however, thought it their duty to provide, as far as their funds allowed, churches for the accommodation of the whole of the population, if they chose to
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attend; and the objections probably did not come so much from the petitioners, who, he believed, were worthy persons, as from others of a different description.
Lord Kenyonbegged permission to say a few words on this subject, as he happened to be present, on Tuesday last, at a meeting then held by the Commissioners, when this subject was under discussion. The grievance was certainly a small one, for the parish was not called upon to pay one farthing towards the building of this chapel; and if all the seats in the churches already built were not taken, it was still a great object to give an opportunity to attend to those who chose to do so. It ought to be observed, that accommodation already existed only for 4,000 out of a population of 52,000, and this additional chapel would only accommodate 1,200 more; and the whole accommodation would still be rather below the mark. As to the expense, if the petitioners had thought the expenses extravagant, they would not have laid out so much on the decoration of St. Mark's.
Lord Kingsaid, that the petitioners did not object to a proper expense, and therefore they had laid out the 3,000 l. on the decoration of St. Mark's, since, as the thing was to be done at all, it was reckoned desirable to do it handsomely. But what they complained of was, that when they were already at an expense of 2,000 l. a year for the parish churches, they were to be saddled with an additional and unnecessary expense. There was no denial of the correctness of their statement, that in the existing churches there were 762 seats unengaged.
Petition laid on the Table.

CALICO DUTIES.
Lord Aucklandmoved, that the Calico Duties' Bill be read a second time. He was not aware that there would be any opposition to his Motion, but he wished, if there were, that the discussion might take place on Monday next, when he meant to move the third reading of the Bill. The object he had in view was, not to avoid any discussion which the Bill might deserve, but to carry it forward with as much expedition as possible, in order to relieve the trade of the state of suspense in which it was at present; and he assured their Lordships, that no less than 200,000 persons were out of employment, and would continue so until this Bill had passed into a law,

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—Bill read a second time, and ordered to be read a third time without being committed.