Sitting of 23 June 1831

MINUTES.
The SPEAKER proceeded to St. James's to present the Address, in answer to his Majesty's most gracious Speech He was accompanied by the Mover and several Members of the Privy Council.
Bills brought in. By Sir E. SUGDEN, to amend the Provisions of the Statute of Frauds:—By Sir J. SCARLETT, to amend the Laws respecting the Attestation of Instruments;—By Mr. SPRING RICK, to consolidate and amend
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the Laws for suppressing the illicit making of Malt and distillation of Spirits (Ireland):—By Lord DUNCANNON, for repealing part of an Act, 7th Geo. 4th, for Paving, Watching, Improving, &c. Grovesnor Place, and other streets adjacent to the Garden of Buckingham House:—By Mr. G. LAMB, to Indemnify Deputy Lieutenants (Scotland); and to authorize the Exchange of Ecclesiastical Lands:— By Mr. PORTMAN, to Consolidate the Laws relating to Highways.
On the Motion of Lord DUNCANNON, a Committee was appointed to inquire into matters connected with Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HURRIES, of the Balances remaining unpaid on the 1st of January, 1831, upon Grants of Parliament for Ordnance Services, set forth in Acts, 11 Geo. 4th; and 1 Wm. 4th, c. 0.5, § 12; and also, of the Amount paid on each of the several heads of Services, for which the said Grants were made, between 1st January, 1S31, and 21st June, 1831; Account of the Balance remaining in the Treasurer of the Ordnance's hands, on the 1st of January, 1831; and of Monies received by him, between that date and 21st June, 1831, distinguishing the several heads of Ordnance Services, as set forth in the Acts before mentioned:—Ou the Motion of Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, giving the particulars of applications made to the Bishops for their assents to building additional Churches, under 5th Geo. 4th, c. 103; and giving the particulars of applications made to the Commissioners for building new Churches, under the 3rd Section of Act 7th and 8th Geo. 4th, c. 72:—On the Motion of Mr. RUTHVEN, from the Diocesan and Endowed Schools (Ireland), of the number of Scholars paying, and those taught gratuitously; and of the number of Vessels and Tonnage entered, and departing from the Port of Strangford, in Ireland, for the last three years; and of all Steam Engines used in Great Britain and Ireland, or in Vessels, distinguishing their powers:—On the Motion of Mr. ELLIS, Papers relating to Public Accounts were ordered to be laid on the Table.
Petitions presented. By Lord MANDEVILLE, from Holy-well and Needingworth, for the Abolition of Slavery; and from St. Ives, for the Repeal of the Duty on Coals. By Mr. TREVOR, from the Non-Resident Freemen of Durham, for continuation of their Franchise. By Mr. HUNT, from Andrew Ranfield, for the Repealing of the Subletting Act.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
Lord Mandevillepresented Petitions from Aberdeen, Armagh, and other places, against the annual grant to the Roman Catholic College of Maynooth, to which grant the petitioners attributed much of the evils of Ireland.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he was glad that the noble Lord had moved that the petitions be printed, be cause he thought there was no little ingenuity requisite to make out the position that the evils of Ireland were attributable to the 9,000 l. or 11,000 l. a-year granted to the College of Maynooth. However, he perfectly concurred with the petitioners, that the grant was an exceptionable one. Let them make this bargain, which would be fair to both parties—let the Protestants contribute nothing to the support of the Catholic religion, and, on the other hand, let the Catholics contribute nothing to the support of the Protestant religion.
Petitions to be printed.

AFFRAY AT NEWTOWNBARRY.
Mr. Huntpresented a petition from the Wine-porters of Dublin, praying for the Repeal of the Union. The hon. Member said, he was convinced that they must have one of two things—either the Repeal of the Union, or the Poor-laws in Ireland. It appeared by the Papers of to-day, that twenty or thirty of the populace in Ireland had been slain by the Yeomanry Cavalry in an affray about tithes. He supposed they would hear more of this transaction, and he would give no opinion about it at present; but he must say, that this state of things in Ireland could not be got rid of by Special Commissions, and prosecutions, and the gallows. Nothing but the Poor-laws would do any good to Ireland, and if the Parliament would not give Poor-laws, he would support the measure of the hon. member for Kerry (Mr. O'Connell) for a Repeal of the Union.
Mr. Maxwellbegged to say a few words respecting the transaction to which the hon. Member had referred, as he happened to be connected with that part of the country in which it had occurred. He took it for granted that the hon. Member alluded to the unfortunate transaction that had taken place at Newtownbarry. In that parish the Tithe Composition Act was in force, so that the evils complained of in other parishes did not exist in Newtownbarry. The clergyman of the parish, who was an extremely humane and excellent man, had not been able to get his tithes from the Roman Catholic farmers, though they had agreed to the composition. The clergyman went to one of them, named Doyle, who told the clergyman plainly, that he would pay him nothing, and that he might distrain if he pleased. Upon this the clergyman resolved, very much against his will, to send in a distress, and he carried his Resolution into effect. The sale of the cattle that was seized under the distress was fixed for Saturday. In the mean time it was rumoured that a rescue of the cattle was intended, and upon this information being received, the Yeomanry were called in, but strict orders were given them not to fire on the people. The cattle were rescued from the pound, and a mob of 1,000 or 2,000 assembled. Upon this the Magistrate came up with the Yeomanry and the Police. The Yeomanry were immediately fired upon by the people: one of their number was killed, and others were mortally wounded. Then it was, that
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the Yeomanry thought themselves justified in firing in self-defence; and the consequence was, he grieved to say, that many of the people were killed. Such was the information he bad received, and he had thought it right to state it to the House, after the allusion which the hon. member for Preston had made to the transaction. He would only add, that Captain Graham, the Magistrate, was a gentleman with whom he had been long acquainted, and whom he knew to be a gallant, an honourable, and a humane man.
Lord Miltonentreated hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House to refrain from the expression of any opinion upon this unfortunate occurrence, until all the facts connected with it were before them. He entreated them not to rely upon any ex parte statements, come from whom they might. He admitted the authority of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Maxwell) opposite to be most respectable; but he did entreat that hon. Gentleman to consider and to weigh well and maturely in his own mind whether the facts of the case would bear out one of the expressions which he had used. The expression to which he alluded was, that "the people had fired upon the Yeomanry." He had received information —but he once more entreated the House to deal with his information and with the information of all other individuals alike, and not to decide upon ex parte statements from any quarter, no matter how respectable,—he had received information, he said, of a very different character. According to his information, the people might, indeed, be said, in one sense, to have fired upon the Yeomanry, but it was with stones, not with fire-arms; and he was sure that throwing stones at the Yeomanry was not what the House would understand by the expression "firing upon the Yeomanry." He mentioned this only to illustrate the prudence of that advice which he took the liberty of earnestly tendering to the House—namely, of keeping their minds in complete indecision upon the transaction until the facts connected with it should be laid officially before them. He had left the spot only the day before this occurrence took place, and he could answer for its tranquility at that time, as well as for the loyalty and good disposition of the inhabitants. Whatever might be the merits of the Rector, as had been stated by the hon. Gentleman opposite, he (Lord Milton) could state, upon as

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good authority as that hon. Gentleman could have access to, that that reverend gentleman, since he had come into the possession of this benefice, had not been upon harmonious terms with his parishioners. But again he would repeat, that he deprecated discussion until they had the proper documents before them.
Mr. Leaderexpressed his entire concurrence in the feeling and generous sentiments which had fallen from the noble Lord who had just sat down, and he equally concurred with the noble Lord as to the propriety of not discussing this matter until they had the whole facts of the case before them. As to the operations of the Tithe Composition Act, he (Mr. Leader) had taken great pains to extend it, and had acted as churchwarden in several parishes where it had been carried into operation, and he would state from his experience of Ireland, that wherever that Act had been put in force it had been productive of the most beneficial effects; and he, therefore, had his forebodings— he more than suspected, seeing that Act was in force in this parish—that all had not been right or fair in this case. For example, he did think that calling out the Yeomanry to enforce payment of tithes, was a measure which ought never to have been resorted to: the civil power was sufficient to enforce the laws, and if it were not, then let the Government ask for greater power, but let not the Magistrates call out heated partizans to enforce the laws.
Mr. Lefroydid not at all question the propriety of not then discussing the subject, and of suspending their judgment until they had the facts of the case before them, but when the hon. Member who had last spoken, expressed his suspicion that all had not been right, he (Mr. Lefroy) deemed it his duty to defend the clergyman whose character was assailed in this instance, against such a charge. One circumstance was to him to place this event on the same footing as that which took place at Merthyr Tydvil; namely, that it was quite clear, that one of the Yeomanry died of a gun-shot wound, and that others had been mortally wounded before they fired on the populace. From this it was also clear, the people had come prepared with fire-arms. If it were no so, then the Yeomanry must have shot themselves. On the whole, there was no ground for casting any imputation on the
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clergyman or Yeomanry. He would add, that the clergymen in that part of the country where this transaction had occurred, found it extremely difficult to collect their tithes; and to such a degree had that difficulty arisen, that he knew an eminently respectable clergyman there who had been obliged to send his books to Dublin to have them sold for the support of his family. He knew that for nine months that clergyman had not been able to collect his tithes. He applied to the Irish Government, and the answer was, that he should seek his remedy; and when a clergyman did so, he was assailed in that House as the promoter of disturbances.
Mr. Lambertlamented, that they should have entered upon such a premature discussion of this description, before they had the proper documents relating to this melancholy transaction before the House. Having lived in Wexford many years, and knowing the loyalty of the people, it would be with extreme reluctance he could bring himself to believe, that the people had done any thing to warrant the massacre that had been committed. He had been employed to defend the parishioners against the collection of tithes for three years, and he was aware that there was a strong feeling against tithes, but during the whole of that period not a single outrage bad been committed. He thought, therefore, that hon. Gentlemen ought to be slow, indeed, in coming to a conclusion that this lamentable occurrence had been provoked. The learned Gentleman opposite had spoken of a clergyman being obliged to sell his books. Now he (Mr. Lambert) knew some clergymen in that county who received such small salaries, that they were not enabled to have any books at all. Looking at the late transactions which had occurred in some districts in Ireland, he must say, that there appeared to be a disposition on the part of certain persons there, to bring on a rebellion in that county. He repeated, that, looking at those transactions, he was led to believe that there were persons in Ireland who were anxious to provoke a rebellion there, in order, as they hoped, to bring back the old state of things. He would tell such persons, however, who foolishly hoped to achieve such an object, that the days of rebellion were gone by, and that the age of revolution was come. When he spoke of revolution, he did not mean to say that he approved of it—on

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the contrary, he condemned it; but he mentioned it as a matter of caution to the persons to whom he alluded, in order that the people might not be driven to a state where resistance would become a duty.
Mr. J. Grattanconsidered it his duty to deny the fact of the impossibility of collecting tithes, or that any combination existed to deprive the clergymen of their rights. It had been asserted by the learned member for the University of Dublin that a clergyman in the neighbourhood where this transaction had occurred, had been obliged to send his books to Dublin to be sold for the support of his family. Now he (Mr. Grattan), as a gentleman who resided in that county, felt it his duty to contradict that statement. He was ready to testify that there could not be a better set of clergymen than the clergymen of the county of Wicklow generally; but he would deny that there was any combination to deprive them of their just rights. He felt bound to state, that in his late canvass, previous to his return for Wicklow, he had heard in that part of Wexford, bordering on Wicklow, where this matter had occurred, murmurs of complaints against the individual who was prominently connected with this transaction. It was exceedingly wrong to have called out the Yeomanry. The police, who, when applied to, appeared to have conducted themselves extremely well, should alone have been employed. The Yeomanry, it was well known in Ireland, were generally selected from party motives, and they were consequently a very obnoxious force.
Colonel Chichesterthought it was highly wrong to enter into such a discussion in the absence of the right hon. the Secretary for Ireland. He did not believe that the peasantry had fired on the Yeomanry.
Mr. Walkersaid, the whole disturbance was to be traced to the great poverty of the peasantry.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that having learnt that twenty lives had been lost, he had made an application yesterday to Government relative to this melancholy transaction, and had been informed by the Secretary for Ireland, that the Irish Government had at once instituted an inquiry into the matter, and that they had sent down a very proper officer, Mr. Greene, the King's Counsel, to investigate the transaction on the spot. Having obtained that
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information, he had determined to abstain from noticing the matter until the result of that investigation should be laid before the House. It had been, however, prematurely introduced by the hon. member for Preston, who, no doubt, could only have been influenced by motives of humanity. How deplorable was it that twenty-one human lives had been sacrificed in a squabble about tithes. Whatever might be the result of this inquiry, he should have been glad to have observed (what he lamented he did not) on his side the House, something like regret that Irish blood had been wasted, and that the spirit of the living was not unafflicted at the massacre of the dead.
Mr. Maxwellhad only stated what he believed to have been the facts.
Mr. Hunt Mr. Hunt, in moving that the petition be printed, could not agree that the discussion had been premature. Whether it had or not, he trusted it would have a good effect. It was but a few days ago they had read in the public prints of the slaughter of eighteen human beings at Merthyr Tydvil. Now they had to peruse the melancholy details of another butchery of twenty-one of his Majesty's subjects. An opportunity had now been afforded to the public of hearing something from both sides, respecting this latter slaughter. Whether the Yeoman shot himself, as the Yeoman did at Chichester, he did not know, but the fact was, that one score of a Catholic population had been slaughtered without remorse by an Orange Yeomanry. He sincerely trusted that the result of an inquiry would be satisfactory, but still he could not but regret that such a system of havoc should be resorted to.
Sir J. Newportdeprecated prejudging such a question. He lamented, as much as any one could lament, the loss of human life that had taken place on this occasion, but he hoped the House would set its face against such premature discussions.
Petition to be printed.

ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The Speakerstated, that he had to read to the House his Majesty's answer to the Address. It was as follows:—
"I return you my sincere thanks for your dutiful and loyal Address, and for your assurances that you will make such further provision as may be necessary for

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the public service, as well as for the application of the sums granted by the last Parliament.
"In all measures that may be necessary for the improvement of the resources, and for the preservation of the peace of the country, as well as for the support of the honour of my Crown, I rely with confidence on your constant and zealous co-operation."
On the Motion of Lord Althorp it was resolved, nemine contradicente,
"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to return his Majesty the thanks of this House for his most gracious Answer to their Address."

IMPROVEMENTS IN LONDON.
Lord Duncannonmoved to renew the Bill of last Session, which gave power to the Commissioners to build a new street from Waterloo Bridge to the northern parts of the metropolis, appointed by 7th of George 4th, for carrying into effect the improvements in the Strand.
Mr. Ridley Colbornewished to know, whether the public land which had been given to the King's College, had not been granted on the condition that the façade of the College towards the river should be made to form an eastern wing to Somerset House, exactly corresponding; to that at the western extremity of the building? He thought no one could deny, that it was desirable to make one wing of a great public building correspond with the other, but it appeared to him that the College had been erupted in utter defiance of this agreement; and he required to know by what authority this had taken place.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, that the ground had been granted upon such conditions: and as it appeared to him that they had not been complied with, he had applied to a competent authority, by whom he had been informed, that the building was so erected as to admit of the façade to the river being completed in exact conformity to the western wing of Somerset House, and that it was intended so to complete it.
Mr. Cressett Pelhamhoped the information given was well-founded, for the eastern wing was at present a most unsightly object.
Mr. Hudson Gurneywished to call the at-
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tention of the noble Lord to the state of the New Road from the West of London to the City, some parts of which were in a state truly disgraceful, particularly the streets at Pentonville, and parts of the City Road.
Lord Granville Somersetsaid, that considerable sums had been spent upon the improvements of the Strand, and the public were now annoyed by the erection of a building for the exhibition of the skeleton of a whale. He wished the whale had had some other local habitation, as its present covering obstructed the view of St. Martin's church, and was an annoyance to those who wished to obtain a sight of that beautiful building. He would take the liberty, therefore, of asking the noble Lord whether, this shed had been erected with his approbation and knowledge?
Lord Duncannonassured the noble Lord, that the building he complained of, which had been erected with his acquiescence, would remain but a very short period, and he begged the noble Lord to recollect, that the whale thus accommodated was the prince of whales. The new street from Waterloo Bridge, as far as Bow-street, would entail a very small expense on the public, as the cost would be defrayed by the sale of lots of Crown land, forming the site of new houses. The Crown, however, had no interest in the street to the north of Bow-street, but as that line of it would improve the adjacent properties, the proprietors would contribute to the expense. The state of the metropolitan roads did not come exactly within the superintendance of the Board of Woods and Forests, but at present its attention was directed to the subject.
Mr. Goulburnthought, that as the new street would greatly benefit the two noblemen whose estates were adjacent to it, it was but right that they should contribute to the expenses of the improvement.
Lord Duncannonsaid, the noble individuals to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, had, on being applied to, expressed their desire to enter into an arrangement, but the Board to which he was attached had nothing to do with the proposed improvement beyond Long Acre.
Bill brought in.

DEAN FOREST.
Lord Duncannonmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to ascertain the boundaries of Dean Forest, and to inquire into the rights and privileges claimed by free miners, and other purposes.
Lord Granville Somersetwished to take the present opportunity to state, that the prison of St. Leonard's, near the Forest of Dean, was in a miserable condition. He had seen a person who had been confined several months, and could have no change of air but by an order from the Justices. In such a prison, persons confined suffered dreadfully, and he trusted that some attention would be paid to his representation.
Lord Duncannonassured the noble Lord that the subject had come under consideration, and he hoped some beneficial alterations would shortly be made.
Bill brought in.

CORN LAWS.
Lord Miltonwas anxious to take advantage of the earliest opportunity to state, that it was his intention, on the first convenient day (of which he would give due notice), to bring the subject of the Corn-laws under the consideration of the House. He would confine himself in the present Session to moving certain resolutions, expressive of the expediency of a revision of those laws, postponing till the next Session a full discussion of their principle and tendency.
Mr. Huntwould, in the present Session, give the House an opportunity of the full discussion which the noble Lord would postpone till the next, on the occasion of a motion which it was his intention to submit for a repeal of the Corn-laws.

REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition from Preston, signed by 3,000 or 4,000 persons, praying that the franchise rights which they at present possessed might not be interfered with by the Reform Bill. This petition he had received previous to the late dissolution, and it would be in the recollection of the House, that he had asserted that the measure of Reform proposed by Ministers had not satisfied the people of the north of England. They demanded more than that Bill professed to give. This declaration had been denied by several hon. Members, but the petition now presented was a proof of the correctness of his assertion; for although his constituents supported the Reform Bill, yet they prayed the House to grant Universal Suffrage, Annual Parliaments, and Vote by Ballot, and they would not be satisfied until these were obtained. He agreed with this opinion, for he thought every man had a right to
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vote, as was the case at Preston, and his constituents and himself were anxious that all their countrymen should enjoy the same privileges. He did not mean to throw any impediment in the way of the plan introduced by Ministers, for he believed there was an overwhelming majority in its favour throughout the country, and he had no doubt it would be carried with a high hand. He certainly thought it would do but little good, but the general opinion seemed to be, that if this was settled, the people would soon obtain the other things they demanded. He regretted, that his opinion on this subject should have been misrepresented, and he conceived the petition to be a complete answer to the misrepresentations which had been made of his unpopularity with his constituents. He maintained, that by the old law of the land, up to the reign of Henry 6th, every man had a right to vote, and at present the great body of the people were looking forward to regain the privileges of which they had wrongfully been deprived, They said, "give us the Reform Bill, and we will obtain the measures which will satisfy us." He had been assailed by such violent charges, which were equally false and scandalous, of having deceived the people, that he wished an inquiry to be made, and if the charges were proved, he ought to be expelled from that House. He denied that he was connected with either Whigs or Tories, and detested borough mongering, by whomsoever it was practised.
Mr. Jamescould not assent to the statements of the hon. Member. He had been all his life an advocate for Universal Suffrage, the Vote by Ballot, and Annual i Parliaments; but would abandon all, except the Ballot, in favour of the measure of Reform proposed by Ministers. Should, indeed, that measure fail—as he did not expect—in producing all the benefit which he contemplated, he would again be an out-and-out radical Reformer.
Mr. Slaneywas sure that the bitterest foe of Reform could not give utterance to any doctrine more insidiously adapted to mar the success of the Reform Bill than that just propounded by the hon. member for Preston.
Mr. Huntnext presented a Petition from the county of Somerset, the result of a public meeting, approving of the Ministerial plan of Reform. The hon. Member declared, that the petition had been intrusted to him, in preference to

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the county Members, because they had confidence in him, and that the meeting agreed unanimously, that the Ballot was necessary for the security of the voters. He had been accused of being an enemy to Reform, and that he had changed his political principles, and been bought over to the side of the Tories. In contending that the Bill was by no means entitled to the popular commendation so lavishly bestowed upon it, he but spoke the sentiments of his constituents, who again returned him, notwithstanding the efforts of the Parliamentary Candidate Society to unseat him; so that all the stories relating to his unpopularity at Preston were untrue.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanwas sure that something must be done towards curing the hon. Member of his cacoethes loquendi malady. Night after night the hon. Member was wasting the time of the House with long-winded egotistical harangues, in which nobody felt the remotest interest, and which the Reporters, in the exercise of that discretion—for which he (Alderman Waithman) could never be too grateful—very judiciously permitted to drop into deserved oblivion. The other evening he heard the hon. Member make use of not less than seventy-five "I,"—"I's," "I did this," and "I did that," in twelve minutes by the clock. If the hon. Member proceeded at this rate, the hon. member for Kerry (Mr. O'Connell) would have to complain of his monopoly of long-winded egotism being invaded.
Mr. Huntwas not an orator, par excellence, like the hon. Alderman, but would nevertheless pledge himself not to produce the invariable effect of the hon. Alderman's orations on all who had the misfortune to hear them—namely, set them to sleep. He would back ton minutes of the hon. Alderman's eloquence at any time as a specific where the strongest opium had failed.
Colonel Evanssaid, he was the individual alluded to by the hon. member for Preston as having endeavoured to prevent his return at the late election; and he had only to regret that he did not arrive at the place till it was too late, and thereby have effected a great public benefit by the defeat of the hon. Member.
Mr. Jamessaid, he had not changed his opinions with regard to the Ballot without which he feared the proposed Bill would not be effectual. But he thought the Bill
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with the Ballot would' be sufficient to render Universal Suffrage and Annual Parliaments unnecessary.
Petition laid on the Table.

TIME OF MEETING.
The Speaker The Speaker, on the question of adjournment, said, he was anxious to ascertain the feelings of the House as to the hour on which he should in future take the Chair. As that was the first day of private business, and on that account expecting a press of such business, he came down to the House at three o'clock, as he had himself proposed; but as no such press could be expected to-morrow, or in future, he wished to know whether it was the wish of the House that he should take the Chair at three or at four o'clock; [Loud cries of "four o'clock," from all parts of the House.] He begged it therefore to be understood, then, that in future he should not come down to the House till a quarter to four o'clock.
MINUTES.
Petitions presented, by Lord DUN-DAS, several Petitions from Hawick, Falkirk, and other places in Scotland, for the Reduction of Taxation, for the Abolition of Negro Slavery, and for Parliamentary Reform. By Lord KING, for the Abolition of Tithes, from Chetsford, Farnborough, Orpington, and Keston, and from several places in Ireland; as, also from Carlow, against the Grants to the Kildare Street Society, and for the Repeal of the Union; and from the Licensed Beer sellers of Brighton, to have Spirit Licences. By the Bishop of FERNS, from the Students of Trinity College, Dublin, to have their Elective Franchise assimilated to that of Cambridge and Oxford.

HIS MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he had to inform the House, that their Lordships had waited upon his Majesty with the Address of that House, to which his Majesty was graciously pleased to return the following most gracious answer: —"My Lords—I thank you for your loyal and dutiful Address. I receive with pleasure your assurance that you will proceed to an early consideration of the matters which I have recommended to your attention; and I rely with confidence on your zealous support of my endeavours to maintain the peace and promote the prosperity of my dominions."
The Duke of Richmond moved that his Majesty's most gracious Answer to the Address be entered on the Journals.

ABUSE OF PATRONAGE (IRELAND).
Lord Plunkettsaid, that the absence of his noble friend (Earl Grey) would induce him to defer until to-morrow the adverting to a subject, the notice of which it gave him the greatest uneasiness to postpone for a single moment. He alluded to
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a most gross and scandalous libel upon himself, which had appeared in some of the public prints, purporting to be observations made by a Member of the other House of Parliament, and imputing to him (Lord Plunkett) conduct of the most unjustifiable description. The whole statement was a gross and abominable falsehood from beginning to end, and he was wholly at a loss to imagine where the materials for so foul a calumny could be found. Indeed so utterly destitute was it of the slightest semblance of truth, that he was perfectly unable to conjecture by what extraordinary effort of ingenuity such a statement could be fabricated. This statement, in which there was not one particle of truth, was put forth as having proceeded from a man of honour, a gentleman of respectability, and the Member of an important county in Ireland. And he thus adverted to the matter, to ascertain if any of their Lordships could offer any excuse for this most false, scandalous and libellous statement. He would to-morrow bring the subject under their Lordship's consideration.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that he concluded an hon. Baronet, a friend of his, was the Member of the other House of Parliament to whose observations the noble and learned Lord alluded. He had had some conversation with his hon. friend, as to the statement of the extraordinary interference of the Government in Ireland during the late elections. Of this he was sure, that a more honourable man, or one more incapable of making any unfounded statement, injurious or libellous towards any individual whatever, did not exist. He would almost pledge his honour that for any statement which had been made by the hon. Baronet, he would be able to give such satisfactory reasons to the noble and learned Lord as would induce him not to bring the subject under public discussion, until some private explanation had been given respecting it. As far as he understood the matter, the particular statement repeated by the hon. Baronet had been made to him in Dublin, by an individual who asserted that he knew its truth. It was clear, therefore, that the hon. Baronet took his information upon trust; that his statement had been made upon hearsay. Such being the case, he was sure that the hon. Baronet would be quite ready to give up his authority. Therefore—
The Lord Chancellorapologized for

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interrupting the noble Marquis, put him right on a point of Order, but there was a distinction, perhaps subtle, but certainly necessary, which he wished to submit to the noble Marquis's consideration. If any Member of the House of Commons said any thing of any noble Lord, however gross and unfounded; if he charged any noble Lord with any offence, however scandalous and vile, it was for the House of Commons, if it so thought fit, to punish or take cognizance of the accusation; but the House of Lords had no power what ever to do so; the law of the land, the Bill of Rights, declared, that no Member of the House of Commons should be called in question elsewhere for any statement which he might think proper to make in that House. But, if any publication took place out of doors, of any statement made within the walls of the House of Commons, whoever made that publication was without any defence whatever; for he could receive no protection from the privileges enjoyed by a Member of the House of Commons. This was a plainly marked line of distinction; and the noble Marquis would, therefore, at once see, that a Member of the House of Commons could not be called over the coals in the House of Lords for any thing which had fallen from him in his own House of Parliament. Under these circumstances, therefore, the noble Marquis had, perhaps, better wait until tomorrow, when his noble and learned friend had intimated his intention of bringing the subject forward, and he might then apply his observations to the statement which had been made in the newspaper, and not to the Member of the House of Commons to whom that statement was imputed.
The Marquis of Londonderrywas obliged to the noble and learned Lord for setting him right. His only anxiety had been, to defend his hon. friend from the charge of having advanced any statement, without having, at least, some reason to believe that it was founded in truth; for the hon. Baronet alluded to had come to him that morning in great anxiety, requesting him to give this explanation, should the subject be mooted by the noble and learned Lord.
Lord Plunkettobserved, that he should bring the subject forward, not for the purpose of attacking any Member of the House of Commons for what he might
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have said in the House of Commons, or for what had been imputed to him in a newspaper; but for the purpose of publicly defending himself from one of the grossest and foullest attacks that was ever made upon an individual.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack had certainly placed the matter on its true ground. If an attack appeared upon any noble Lord in a newspaper, to whomsoever that attack was imputed, it was the duty of that noble Lord to stand forward and defend his honour and character; but if the attack was made in the other House of Parliament, then it was not open to any noble Lord to bring the conduct of that Member under their Lordships' consideration.
Lord Plunkettrepeated, that the attack upon him was of the grossest description. He was charged with trafficking in judicial and other offices for the purpose of influencing the late elections in Ireland; and with having, in one particular instance, bartered an assistant Banister's place for thirty votes. He had also been charged with promising appointments in the Church (he wished he had any to give) for similar purposes. These charges were made upon hearsay, and he called upon any man, cither in that or the other House, to state the grounds on which this gross slander was founded.
The Marquis of Londonderrycould not think it possible that his hon. friend would have brought forward such charges, without conceiving that there was some foundation for them, whether good or not; but whether these charges were to the extent represented he could give no opinion.
Lord Plunkettagain denied, that there was the slightest foundation for the charges. If any person said, that they were founded, to any extent whatever, he said that which was not true.
The Motion for inserting his Majesty's Answer to the Address in the Journals, agreed to.

BEER BILL.
The Bishop of Bathand Wells presented a Petition from the Clergy and other Inhabitants of his Diocese, praying for the Repeal of the Beer Bill. The petition was signed by every clergyman in the Diocese, and stated, that pauperism had much increased since the passing of the Act. The right rev. Pre-

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late warmly supported the prayer of the petition; and maintained, that the Bill had had a most demoralizing effect on the people. Every third or fourth house in some of the country towns was become a beer-shop; and the greatest excesses were, in consequence, committed. In Somersetshire the pernicious effects of this Bill were too palpable. He called on the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, who professed himself to be so friendly to the improvement of the people, to assist in putting an end to a system by which the people were vitiated. He called on the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, who was so anxious for Reform, by the repeal of the Bill in question to effect a reform of the most desirable character. With respect to the description of Reform for which the noble Earl himself was so zealous an advocate, he (the Bishop of Bath and Wells) was bound conscientiously to declare, that he could not give it his assent. At the same time he must assert, that not one of their Lordships was more ready to respect and promote the liberties of the people than he was.
The Earl of Malmesburywas glad to hear such opinions fall from the right rev. Prelate, which, he was sure, would have much weight with their Lordships. He had been by no means favourable to the Bill against which the right rev. Prelate had just presented a petition. At the same time, to repeal a law after it had passed, was a very different thing from opposing its adoption. He was quite aware, that the law had been productive of many evils; but were there not ways in which the number of those evils might be diminished? What he suggested was in no hostility whatever towards the people. On the contrary, he was influenced by a wish for their comfort, and that comfort could not be better consulted than by an improvement of their moral habits. The scenes of debauchery which occasionally took place in the beer-houses were of the grossest description. Would it not, therefore, be advantageous to give the Magistrates some control over those houses? He wished that the poor man should carry his beer home to his family, instead of exhausting his means and health in these houses of excess, and entering into scenes of the lowest debauchery. Instances had even occurred in which parties had drawn out their earnings from the savings' banks to indulge in these excesses. The Act had
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not the same bad results in large towns as in agricultural districts, which made him suppose, that the Legislature would be likely to view it in too favourable a light. He hoped his Majesty's Government would see if, by giving the Magistrates a control over these houses, or by some other legislative provision, the evils which the Bill had occasioned might not be corrected.
Viscount Melbournewillingly admitted, that the noble Earl had never shown any hostility to the people. His anxiety to improve their morals was itself a proof of the interest which he took in their welfare. He perfectly concurred also in the noble Earl's statement, that there was a great difference between objecting to a bill before it was passed, and repealing it after it had been passed. He likewise agreed with the noble Earl, that it might be practicable to add some police regulations to the Bill, which would have the effect of diminishing the evils complained of. The matter should, undoubtedly, be considered by his Majesty's Government. He should certainly say, that the opinion of the country generally was, that the effects of the Bill had been pernicious. They were, however, unequally so. The evils were not so much felt in towns. That increased the difficulty of legislating upon the subject; as one law was required for the country, and another for the town. He must say, however, that he thought the declaration in the petition, of the very sudden and extensive change which the Bill had produced in the morals of the people, was in a great measure fancy and exaggeration. He did not know how it would be possible to give the Magistrates a greater power over the beer-houses without an absolute return to the licensing system; but some police regulations seemed to he necessary, and the subject should receive the immediate attention of Government.
The Earl of Malmesbury The Earl of Malmesbury, in explanation, observed, that he by no means wished to return to the licensing system.
Lord Teynhamrecommended, as the best means of remedying the evils complained of, the abolition of the hop and malt duties, which would enable the people to brew their beer at home.
The Marquis of Salisburydid not think the Bill had been attended with that great demoralization which had been represented, although it had been injurious in many

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cases. The houses licensed under the Act, however, were falling into the hands of brewers, which he apprehended would go far to decrease the evils complained of.
Lord Kingobserved, that the different effects in the towns and the country was attributable to this circumstance—namely, that in large towns the Poor-laws were inoperative, and the poorer classes knew if they spent all their money in beer they would have no relief, and must suffer; whereas in the country, the poor man knew that if he spent any extra money which he might make at harvest time, instead of laying it by for less profitable seasons, he should not suffer, is he should have parochial relief. Though he should be sorry to see the Act repealed, he thought it might be amended.
The Bishop of Bath and Wellsexpressed his thanks to the noble Secretary of State for the Home Department, for having promised to turn his immediate attention to this important subject, and he trusted to meet with the cordial co-operation of the noble and learned Lord.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that no pains had been wanting on his part to inquire into the subject before the Bill was passed. He agreed with the noble Earl, who had said, that it was one thing to object to the passing of the Bill, and another, the Bill having passed, to propose its repeal. He hoped that in the introduction of any superintending or controlling power, nothing would be done to alter the great principle of the measure, or tend to restore the licensing system.

EMPLOYMENT OF LABOURERS.
The Earl of Winchilseabegged leave to inquire if it was the intention of his Majesty's Government, in the course of this Session, to bring forward any plan for the purpose of affording agricultural relief, by providing for the surplus population, by home colonization or otherwise. If Government had no intention of producing any plan for the relief of the people in the agricultural districts, he gave notice that it was his intention again to lay on the Table the bill he had introduced last Session, for the purpose of compelling parishes to employ the unemployed labourer. He was convinced that some enactment of that kind was necessary, as he knew several parishes in Kent, where sixty or seventy able-bodied men were receiving weekly relief. He was certain the present state
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of things could not continue; and that if the people were left without employment, they would be ready again to break forth into outrages, and there would be a display of much worse feeling, and a more terrible and mischievous spirit, among the agricultural peasantry, than that which created so much alarm some months ago.
Viscount Goderichsaid, that it was by no means certain that there was a surplus population throughout the country—in some parts of it there certainly was not; although in other places a great want of employment did exist; however, it was the intention of his Majesty's Government, in the course of the present Session, to propose to Parliament two bills, one of which, on the subject of emigration, he expected would prove an advantageous measure, and would most probably give great relief. With regard to any plan for home colonization that was a matter of greater difficulty, and he could not undertake to say that Government had made up their minds on the subject.
The Earl of Malmesburywas happy something was likely to be done. He would recommend the repeal of an absurd regulation which limited to twenty acres the quantity of land a parish could rent for the employment of its poor. He recommended, too, the employment of such labourers as were out of work, at a regular and standard rate of wages, and he thought some such plan would remove part of the evil at present existing. As to emigration, that, in his opinion, would encounter insuperable difficulties in many parishes, although it might be useful in others.
Lord Suffieldconsidered this question most important—not inferior to the subject of Reform. Reform would be the means of effecting a great deal of good, but he was not so absurd as to suppose that Reform, though carried to the utmost extent, would at once relieve the country from all its difficulties. It had been said, that a superabundance of population did not exist in all parts of the country; but that was no reason, in his opinion, why means should not be taken to remedy the evil where it did exist. He did not believe, that the eastern part of the country, with which he was connected, was exempted from the evil; and with respect to Norfolk, he could confirm what had fallen from the noble Earl (Winchilsea). Being acquainted with these circumstances, he could assure the House that he would en-

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deavour to promote some measure of relief, were he not aware that Government intended to apply some other remedy besides emigration to the evil complained of. He had good reason to believe, that Government would institute inquiries, with a view to ascertain speedily to what extent it would be possible and expedient to employ the superabundant population at home. That belief made him passive on the subject, for he had every confidence that his Majesty's Government would, if possible, relieve the country from this great embarrassment.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, that thinking it doubtful whether any measure for giving employment to the labouring classes would be brought in by Government, he should on Monday next move for the re-appointment of the Committee which sat last Session, to consider laws affecting the poor.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he felt great embarrassment in replying to the question which had been asked, whether it was the intention of Government to bring forward any measures for the alleviation of the distress of the poor classes, because if he said that Ministers had no measures for that object in contemplation, they might be accused of supineness and indifference to the wants of the poor; and if he replied that Government had some plan in view, he might excite hopes which would end in disappointment. The subject was one of great difficulty, of which no other proof need be given than the length of time during which it had been agitated, the number of reports which had been drawn up, and the difference of opinion which prevailed on the subject. Each person had his own nostrum, to which he obstinately adhered, regarding with inveterate hostility the nostrum of every one else. The House had already been informed by a noble friend of his, that a bill was to be introduced for the purpose of facilitating emigration; and he also promised to take the subject of home-colonization into consideration, without, however, expressing any opinion, favourable or unfavourable, on the matter. He could not say, that Government had any plan in view on which they placed such confidence as need make any other person, who had any measure to recommend, hesitate to do so.
The Lord Chancellorthought their Lordships must feel the inconvenience of a practice which had of late crept into
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that House, and which was not permitted in the other House of Parliament—that of entering into a debate when there was no question of any kind or sort before them. He conceived, that it would not lessen their Lordships' dignity, and would certainly be infinitely more convenient, if they departed from such a practice, one consequence of which was, that the closest reasoner could not stick to the question, because there was no question whereto to stick. Whenever their Lordships indulged in these irregular debates, they got into a conversation quite as rambling and desultory as a talk round a fireside, and not half so amusing. The question into which their Lordships had entered was an extremely important one, and though he deprecated continuing the subject in the present unprofitable manner, being desirous rather to have an opportunity of delivering his sentiments on every branch of the question when it came regularly before the House, he trusted that he should not be considered as deviating from the advice which he had just presumed to offer their Lordships, if he expressed his opinion, that some attempts ought to be made to relieve the evil which had been brought under the notice of the House by the noble Earl (Winchilsea), and the sooner the better. God knew whether any good effect would result from those attempts; but they had no right to despair. He always thought it time enough to say "I can't," when he had tried and failed. Whenever a man said "I can't" before he had tried, their Lordships might safely conclude that he meant "I won't." He was decidedly of opinion that the present Session, short and busy as it might be, should not be suffered to pass, without endeavouring to apply a remedy to the evil. That remedy must be of two kinds— namely, to give relief to the excess of population over the demand for labour, which existed in some parts of the country (many noble Lords, he knew, said that it existed in all parts of the country, but it was sufficient for him that it existed in some, and might exist in all if necessary precautions were not adopted), and to afford means, under due regulations, for emigration. The latter plan, he was aware, would only afford temporary relief, and must, of necessity, be an inadequate remedy for the evil; and unless their Lordships applied the axe to the root, they would have to resort to emigration

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again. But he was glad to have it in his power to assure the House, that the Government, and himself individually, had taken the subject into consideration, with a view to propose a measure, not indeed to operate contemporaneously with the regulations for emigration, but somewhat after them in order of time, to make a more general provision to prevent the recurrence of the sad necessity for the country's best sons leaving her shores. This was the kind of remedy which he should prefer; but it was necessary to begin by removing the surplus population, and it would be then for Government to endeavour to prevent its accumulation again. That object was to be obtained by a revision of the Poor-laws, notwithstanding the immense and fearful difficulties which such a task imposed. It was known that so early as the years 1816 and 1817 he had applied his mind to this subject. From that time downwards he had not given up the investigation; and, at length, he believed that he saw daylight amidst the darkness which had hitherto enveloped the subject. He should not say a word as to the plan which he had decided upon; but he had taken the advice of his Majesty's Government as a body upon it; and he hoped and trusted that not many months would pass before a measure on the subject would be introduced to their Lordships, so matured, as at least to deserve their favourable consideration. He would not promise that it would be brought forward this Session, but he hoped it would not be delayed later than the next. It was intended to be preparatory to another measure for the consolidation and simplification of the existing Acts on the subject of the Poor-laws. The noble and learned Lord concluded by stating, that he thought himself called upon to make these few observations, in justice to himself and to his colleagues, to show that they were not neglectful of the subject. Emigration he considered a most inadequate remedy, unless assisted by other measures.
Lord Stourtonsaid, my apology to the House for transgressing its rules, after the remark which has just fallen from the noble and learned Lord, is, that any observations I have to make, of however little weight they may be to-day, would be still more worthless to-morrow. They refer to the statements of extreme and appalling distress in Ireland, and the im-
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minent hazard we run, that without extensive and immediate relief, wide districts will be exposed to the alarming danger of perishing under the joint and dreadful vicissitudes of famine and pestilence. So rapid is the progress of events, that it is true to say, there is death in our deliberations! Qui cito dat, bis dat, that is my maxim, that is my justification this night for transgressing the forms and rules of the House by prolonging this irregular conversation. The Speech from the Throne has informed the House of the enforcement of the Quarantine Laws, and other wise and salutary commercial regulations. But let not one other precaution be omitted—namely, that of propitiating the great Disposer of all things, the great God of mercy and of justice, by deeds of mercy to our own fellow-creatures and subjects, and let us have to say, in imploring mercy for ourselves, in beseeching of infinite goodness to avert this pestilence (of cholera) from our shore, that as we have done our utmost to arrest the progress of famine and pestilence in Ireland, so do thou, in thy mercy, Lord, avert pestilence from us. My Lords, if the statements be correct, and I have no reasons for questioning their accuracy, scenes of horror are passing in the south-western parts of Ireland, compared with which the Grecian Daughter is no longer tragedy. And now permit me to add, that the time is come when those who, from principles of political economy, may be most indisposed to afford temporary and casual relief, will find their justification in the peculiar state of Ireland, as exposed and laid down in the reports of our legislative Committees. What do these re- ports say? Why, that Ireland is in a transition state. But trust not. my Lords, to my memory; allow me to read a copy of the report, in the very words of a Committee of the other House of Parliament. One of these tells us "that the present difficulties of the situation of Ireland rather appear to be incidental to a transition from one system to another," (and that transition, so alluded to, is stated to be, from the cottier system to consolidation of farms,) "than to any which can be considered as permanent." Therefore, my Lords, I have a right to say, watch with peculiar care this transition state, and give temporary and casual relief under accidental and passing circumstances. The most inflexible rigorist for non-interference may he

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be satisfied; and if, in future times, when a more permanent and better system has been established, and your remedial measures now in progress or in contemplation, viz., of bog-reclaiming, emigration, redemption of wastes, and other prospective remedies, have been in operation, your present relief, however extensive, cannot be appealed to as a precedent. You may shew the bogs which you have laid down in these your present channels of charity, and say, these were applicable only to that transition-state in which Ireland was then placed; and you have no right to the same interference in your more settled and improved condition. To Ireland, in its present state, may be applied the story of a person who had fallen down exhausted in the streets of Paris. Her complaint was the wolf in the stomach! Two medical men were in attendance upon her, of whom the one said, the malady was without a remedy; the other, that he knew of an infallible cure; but that the ingredients of which it must be composed were at Constantinople. The humane by-stander exclaimed—"Then, Gentlemen, as one of you conceives this dreadful disorder to be without a remedy, and your remedy (turning to the other Doctor') is to be fetched from Constantinople, permit me in the interim to prescribe for this poor creature. My advice is, that you will give without delay a little food to this person, in order to stop the gnawings of this devouring worm—of this wolf that is now preying upon the vitals of this unfortunate person." I say the same—I approve of the remedial measures in progress to afford a more permanent and effective cure for the complaints of Ireland. But all I ask—all I prescribe is, that you will administer without a moment's delay a little food, a little meal, some potatoes to stop, at least to assuage, the cravings of this devouring wolf in the stomach, that now is preying, through wide districts, upon the very vitals of a famished people.