Sitting of 25 July 1831

MINUTES.
Bills brought in. By Mr. GRATTAN, for the Improvement of the Administration of Justice (Ireland). Road a second time; the Lord Lieutenants' (Ireland); Embankments (Ireland).
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. RUTHVEN, the quantity of Malt made and charged, with Duty in the half-years ending 5th April, 1830, and 10th October 1850:—On the Motion of Mr. MULLINS, of the amount of Vestry Assessments and Easter Offerings, in every Parish in Ireland, during Easter Week in the present year:—On the Motion of Mr. G. DAWSON, of the names of the Masters in Chancery retired upon Superannuation, allowances since November 1830, and the names of those appointed since that time.
Petitions presented. By Mr. HUNT, from the Working Classes of the Metropolis, for the Repeal of the Corn Laws; from the Labourers of Gedney (Lancaster), to Repeal all Taxes on the Necessaries of Life; from the National Union, Bethnal Green, for Universal Suffrage, Annual Parliaments, and Vote by Ballot. By Mr. LEADER, from the Inhabitants of Annan, to introduce Poor Laws into Ireland. By Mr. GRANBY CALCRAFT, from Wareham, to return one Member to Parliament. By Mr. GRATTAN, from Members of the Irish Bar, to reduce the Stamp Duties on Roman Catholics admitted to the freedom of Galway. By Mr. RUTHVEN, from the Corn and Malt Factors of Mark Lane, against the introduction of Molasses to Distilleries.

CORN LAWS.
Mr. Huntpresented a Petition from Oldham, Lancashire, for a total Repeal of the Corn-laws; and also from Blackburn, to the same effect. This latter petition was signed by nearly 10,000 of the working classes of that town. The petitioners stated, but this he thought was an exaggeration, that sixty millions of quarters of corn were consumed annually, and that the price was by the tax raised to the consumer, 20 s. per quarter, costing the country annually 60,000,000 l. They added, that by the effect of these laws, in crippling our foreign trade, the country lost 60,000,000 l. additional. This was undoubtedly an overstatement, but still the consequences of these laws were very injurious. They crippled our foreign trade, and burthened the great mass of the community, they were contrary to the principles of justice and humanity, and sound commercial policy; they were oppressive in their direct burthen, and excited discontent, and were a source of grinding distress to the poor.
Sir John Brydgessaid, that the repeal of the Corn-laws would raise the price of corn, as well as ruin the agricultural interests. He was glad to find the hon. member for Preston had lowered his tone. It was an erroneous opinion, that our foreign trade was affected by the Corn-laws; but if it were, our foreign trade was not to be put in competition with the landed interest.
Colonel Torrenssaid, if the repeal of the Corn-laws would raise the price of corn, the landed Gentlemen would eagerly demand it.
Mr. O'Connellsupported the prayer of the petition. He considered the Corn-laws a sacrifice of the poor to the rich; they were a drawback on the resources of the country. He thought the Irish trade would be benefitted by their abolition.
Mr. Leadersaid, that before they repealed the Corn-laws, they ought to take measures for the improvement of Ireland, as that country had nothing to depend on but its agriculture and its linen manufacture. If they did not do that, the free trade system would certainly ruin entirely that depressed and impoverished country.
Mr. Wyseshould be prepared to show, when the time came, that the system of averages was greatly deceptive, as might be proved by referring to the returns of each large corn-market. The quantity of Irish corn introduced, was far greater than met the public eye. The result of the trickery was the introduction of foreign corn when, by the present laws, it ought to be excluded. Various complaints had been made of this, but no remedy had yet been devised. The protection to home-grown corn was a delicate question, which must soon be looked at; but one thing was certain, all interests had a right to, and would be benefitted by, fixed and well-defined laws.
Petition laid on the Table.

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
Mr. Leaderpresented two Petitions, one from the Kelp-burners on the west coast of Ireland, complaining of the loss of 180,000 l. by the reduction of the duty on barilla, and the other from Annan (Scotland) for the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland. The petitioners were suffering very much, and unless something were done to encourage this manufacture, they and their distressed fellow-countrymen must again come forward and petition for relief next year. If nothing were done for the relief of the people of Ireland, that country must fall into anarchy, from which it would be very difficult to extricate it. He could assure the House, that Poor-laws and a national loan were now become necessary, to save that country from destruction. The hon. Member referred to several petitions for a Repeal of the Union, as a proof
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of the dissatisfaction which prevailed, and particularly to a meeting held at Cork, at which the Chief Magistrate of that great commercial city presided, and at which a petition had been agreed to, to which he begged leave to call the attention of the House. That petition stated, and it should be remembered that it came from a loyal and a respectable community,
"Your petitioners cannot avoid expressing their conviction, that absentee landed proprietors, and a non-resident Legislature, are evils of undoubted magnitude—that Ireland has suffered, and still continues to suffer, from them—and that unless remedied or counteracted by a just and generous course of policy towards Ireland, the inhabitants of this country will be compelled to demand a revision of the Act of Union.
"Your petitioners have no desire to increase the soreness which, it would be uncandid to deny, begins to be extensively felt in Ireland at the progressive increase of pauperism, and the breaking down of the middle and industrious classes; but your petitioners are bound to state, that neither ancient or modern history furnishes the instance of any country being able to bear, for a series of years, a constant drain of its resources. In every case in which it has been attempted, from the days of the Roman Empire down to the very recent case of Belgium, popular discontent has been engendered, and revolution has invariably followed."
He begged most earnestly, that the House would give ear to the prayer of these petitioners, for he could assure it, that nothing but a conviction that the Legislature was watching over their interests could keep the people quiet. In truth, ruin was making them unruly. The petition from the kelp-burners came from a portion of the population, which, not many years ago, were as well off as any in Ireland. It was known, from official returns, that the Irish fisheries gave employment to 60,000 seamen; and the kelp manufacture afforded employment, and gave also an income of 120,000 l. a year to the coast population of the south and west of Ireland. But all the grants, bounties, patronage, and protection of every kind had been withdrawn from the Irish fisheries; and by the reduction of the duty on barilla, from 11 l. to 2l. per ton, the coast population engaged in the kelp-trade, had become a prey to pauperism and famine. If either branch of industry had been preserved, the coast population might have been rescued from ruin; but when parsimony, frugality, and free-trade, simultaneously consigned both

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branches of industry to instant destruction, the fallen and ruined fortunes of hundreds of thousands of industrious men, dependant on these branches of maritime industry, alarmed the best friends of Ireland. In 1827, the amount of kelp delivered in the port of Galway alone, was 7,000 tons, at 6l. per ton; in the present year only 700 tons could find a market, at 2l. a ton—a reduction in that one port, from 42,000 l. to 1,400 1. In 1827, in the Galway and Mayo districts, upwards of 21,000 tons were sold—price 61. per ton, amount 126,000 l. In the present year, the quantity which could obtain a market did not exceed 3,500 tons—amount 7,000 l.; the price being, at present, only 2l. a ton. From this state of depression the petitioners prayed the House to relieve them. They asked for a grant to construct roads and make piers and harbours, so that they might, again find work at sea, and use the weed they could no longer burn for manure. As to the Poor-laws, he would only say, that while the present mass of pauperism existed in Ireland, no man was safe, and he was filled with dismay at the scenes which had recently passed, and with apprehension for the future.
Colonel Torrensthought, that the time was come for a philosophical inquiry into the causes why Ireland had stood still—if she had not even gone back—while all other countries were advancing. The evils of Ireland arose partly, he believed, from the state of transition in which that country was now placed, and which had all been enhanced by the tremendous measure for returning to cash payments. The withdrawing of its issues by the Bank of Ireland, had had the effect of making a difference of twenty per cent in the exchange against Ireland. This was the result of a rash application of principles, sound in themselves, but which, from the manner of their application, only aggravated the evils they were intended to remedy. He thought, however, that the time was come, when a wise Government would adopt such remedial measures as were suitable to the state of that country, viz., to give employment to its agricultural population, and promote an extensive system of emigration.
Mr. Grattanwas of opinion, that all the evils of Ireland arose from absenteeism, and if the landed gentry were to reside in Ireland, there might be some hopes of improving the country. He believed, that
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the people of that country had never been better off than at present. He denied, that the change in the currency had affected Ireland, where paper money had continued in circulation, to the same extent as England, and felt himself also called upon to protest against the system of emigration, encouraging which had deluded both the Government and the people. He was not averse from emigration, but it must be free and voluntary, undertaken by individuals, not the result of a scheme of the Government. He hoped the landed gentlemen would go to Ireland to reside, and share the duties which now fell so seriously on those who did reside there. He admitted, that confusion and anarchy prevailed in Ireland to a great extent, and as he expected much good from the measure to be proposed by the hon. member for Aldborough (Mr. Sadler), he hoped the Government would see the propriety of allowing that measure to come before Parliament. For his part, he was persuaded that they must have Poor-laws for Ireland, or there never would be an end to the anarchy which now existed.
Sir John Brydgesconceived, that many of the evils of Ireland arose from the people of that country not having a legal claim to relief. Thousands of the poor in that unhappy country would have perished but for the relief sent from England. They ought not to be dependent on charity for support, and in his opinion, a modified system of Poor-laws must be established to provide for those who were unable to provide for themselves.
Mr. O'Connellrose to make, he hoped, a very short speech. First, with reference to the petition, he must say, that it was not the reduction of the barilla duties which had injured the kelp manufacturers. He knew well, that the soap-boilers of Dublin had not for some time past used any kelp; and though the soap-boilers at Cork still used some, the quantity was small, and it was there going out of use. What had ruined the soap-trade of Ireland was the circumstance, that there was no Excise duty on it there, while in England there was such a duty. That duty was, however, remitted in a shape of drawback, and by a peculiar management, known to the soap-boilers, the drawback was made very much to exceed the duty, so that the Government gave a large bounty to the soap-boilers of England, to ruin the soap-boilers of Ireland. In fact, they were

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encouraged by the laws to send large quantities of soap to Ireland: they undersold the Irish in their own markets, and that had ruined the soap-boilers and the kelp-burners of Ireland. Moreover, the soap-boiler got sixty-one days to pay the duty; the drawback was paid immediately, and two months being sufficient to complete his manufacture, and send it to market, he was able to trade on the capital furnished by the Government, in the shape of the drawback. Misgovernment, then, had ruined the Irish manufacturers. The people of Ireland did not want treatises on political economy, and these were of no use to them, because there was one fact peculiar to Ireland which existed no where else, viz., the large mass of her landed proprietors owned estates elsewhere, and lived out of the country. It was the absentees who injured Ireland. A Roman Catholic Bishop had stated, and truly stated, that in his diocese eighteen out of twenty of the landed proprietors were living out of the country. That was a state which no introduction of capital could redeem. In fact, it was idle to talk of introducing capital into Ireland; Ireland did not want capital wherever any useful enterprises called for it. He would undertake himself to get, within a fortnight, in Dublin, 500,000 l. on adequate security, if there was a chance of its being profitably invested, and he would undertake, in one month, to raise 1,000,000 l. in Dublin for any gentleman who might want it for any useful purpose. It was not only the absentees who afflicted Ireland—the taxes levied on that country were all drawn from it, and spent out of it. The taxation of Ireland was altogether supposed to amount to 7,000,000 l. This sum was made up of taxes acknowledged and taxes not acknowledged. The unacknowledged taxes were those paid upon articles consumed in Ireland, after undergoing Excise and Customs duties in England. Innumerable were these articles. They included not only tea, hops, sugar, wine, timber, coffee, molasses, dye-woods, spices, articles of dress, and implements of various kinds, but books, papers, cards, insurances, patent medicines, and even newspapers. English journals circulated extensively in Ireland. The readers, of course, paid the tax upon them, but it was credited to the English, and not the Irish revenue. Of the produce of all these taxes, not three millions were required for pur-
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poses that could be called Irish, and certainly three millions were not spent in Ireland. The expenditure, such as it was, was annually decreasing. Nearly half a million had been saved within the last ten years on revenue collection alone. The grants for miscellaneous services were every year undergoing a reduction. There was a heavy pension-list, but the greater portion of the receipts went into the pockets of non-residents. Amongst other persons deriving from the money voted for Irish pensioners, as they were called, was the Princess of Hesse Homberg. A large sum was voted for military purposes, but a great deal of it went into the pockets of English clothiers, accoutrement makers, and horse breeders. In short, the portion of the Irish taxation actually spent in Ireland was under 3,000,000 l. Then a surplus of 4,000,000 l. was drawn in one way or the other by England, and to this was to be added the absentee rents. Some estimated these rents at 3,000,000 l., others at 4,000,000 l.; but supposing them to swell the tax drain to 7,000,000 l., which was clearly under the mark, that was enough to account for the impoverished state of Ireland. This drain had been going on for years. It was annually increasing, and the means of the country to resist it were yearly diminishing. The large expenditure and high prices of the war made compensation to the country, while the war lasted. The prices had fallen from fifty to 100 per cent; the expenditure on the army alone had been reduced to the extent of nearly 3,000,000 l. It might be said, that to make up for fallen expenditure and reduced prices, there was the advantage of diminished taxation. Such was the case in England, but the very opposite was the case in Ireland. Strange as it might appear to some Gentlemen, it was not until the means of Ireland were greatly diminished, and were hourly diminishing, that it appeared wise to British financiers to "assimilate" the taxes of the two countries in all respects. In a debate on the state of Ireland in 1822, the late Lord Liverpool admitted the suffering of Ireland from an "excessive diminution of expenditure," and yet since that period taxes had been imposed upon Ireland, which her people had not known before. Approaching the termination of the war, all the Excise duties on necessaries or luxuries were raised to the British standard; seven or eight years after the war, all the Cus-

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toms' duties were raised to the British standard. To be sure, there was a relief in respect to the assessed taxes, but that had been a good deal counterbalanced by taxes imposed. Ireland, then, was now nearly in the condition in which she was, as to the pressure of taxation, during the war, though it was the boast of the Minister, that the people of England had received a relief to the extent of two or three and thirty millions. What country could bear up against such a state of things? Now, too, the Ministers were doing away all the Boards—everything was to be taken away from Ireland, and she was to have nothing left but the privilege of sending all her wealth to England. As to the transition state which the hon. Member had spoken of, he could tell the House, if that were the cause of distress, it was not yet over. He had that day seen letters from Dublin, describing the failure of three wealthy houses, which no man could have possibly expected. He was ready to admit, that the Government should do something for Ireland; but—and he said it without any feelings of hostility to Government, to whose measures, as far as England was concerned, he gave due praise—as far as Ireland was concerned, all their measures had only tended to increase the ill-will among the different parties, and promote the frightful anarchy which prevailed. More virulence was now displayed than had been in existence for the last ten years. Blood had been shed, and all the angry feelings had been roused. He did not state this with a view to disturb the Government, but, in the discharge of his duty, he was bound to allude to these circumstances. There never was a Ministry so mistaken in their policy towards Ireland. No man who heard him could deny that a more deadly spirit of animosity existed at present in Ireland than for a long time past. What would the House think of it, when a Grand Jury gave as a toast—an incredible toast, which he would not have believed had his informants not been men of undoubted veracity—"Our feet on the necks of the Papists?" This Grand Jury had also drunk "The Yeomanry of Newtownbarry," with all the honours. This Grand Jury, too—he meant the Grand Jury of Carlow, for he would not mince the matter—had given "The that of July." Was that proper in men who were called upon to administer justice in the country? He would ask,
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also, if the nephew of the noble Lord, whose agent Captain Graham was, ought to have been on the Grand Jury of Wexford? Ought Mr. Irving to be on that Grand Jury? Common decency forbad it. The Government had issued a proclamation to forbid Orange processions; I but it had not succeeded in putting them down. He was informed by a gentleman, a Mr. Randle Kernan, a Barrister, that after this proclamation had been issued, several Magistrates had walked arm and arm in an Orange procession at Enniskillen. The mischief had begun, and something must be done to remedy it. The state of Ireland was frightful. To poverty, misery, and disease, was now added bloodshed. The Papists were making pikes, and the Yeomanry were sharpening their bayonets, and if nothing were done there would be much bloodshed. He had been applied to by the Catholic clergy to speak to the people, but what could he say? He could tell them to be tranquil, but he could not promise them anything as a means of keeping them so. The Government must do something. If the Magistrates became partizans, they must excite disrepect, and they ought to cease to be Magistrates. If such men were dismissed, in a short tiem tranquillity would be restored. He began by saying he wished to make only a short speech, and he had made a long one. He repeated, that he was not hostile to the Government; he would give it his support, admiring its conduct, towards England. Towards Ireland it had yet done nothing good, however well it intended.
Mr. Cramptondid not mean to go into the causes which had brought about the present state of Ireland; he only rose to object to hon. Members giving a highly-coloured, exaggerated, and distorted picture of the evils which existed in that country. He had received letters that day from Dublin, which, he was happy to say, announced the decrease of distress in the west of Ireland, and expressed a confident hope, that in a very short time there would be an abundance of provisions for the people. With respect to the assertions of the hon. and learned member for Kerry, on the subject of the organization of the Yeomanry, and the encouragement given to processions, he begged most distinctly to deny all such charges; and the best proof that they were unfounded was, that his hon. and learned friend had been unable to put his hand on a single instance of that

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description, to justify his assertion. On the contrary, the Government had instituted a rigid inquiry into the conduct of all yeomanry officers with reference to these processions, and dismissed all who were known to have in any way taken part in them, or encouraged them. He had no wish to detain the House, but he felt himself bound to defend a Government which had, in a short space done more for Ireland than preceding Governments had done for years.
Sir R. Batesonexpressed an earnest hope, that the Government would turn its attention to the affairs of Ireland, and endeavour to stop that rage for voluntary emigration which had in the last few years carried off 50,000 of the wealthiest, most intelligent, and most industrious, of the peasantry of the Province of Ulster. The consequence of the present state of things was, that all the valuable portion of the population were leaving the country, while the needy and the turbulent, whom they wished to get rid of, staid at home. He pressed this on the attention of the Government, and expressed a hope that measures would be taken to renew the Linen Act, which would expire in the month of September next.
Mr. Leehoped the principles of free-trade would be extended to Ireland as well as to all other parts of the United Kingdom.
Petitions laid on the Table.

SPEECH OF THE KING OF THE FRENCH —BELGIAN FORTRESSES.
The Marquis of Chandostook that opportunity to ask the noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp), a question respecting a very extraordinary statement contained in the Speech of the King of the French, which had that day been received. In that Speech his Majesty was made to declare, that "the King of the Belgians will not be a member of the German Confederation. The fortresses erected to threaten France, and not to protect Belgium, will be demolished." He wished to know whether the Government of this country had been a party to the negotiation for the destruction of these fortresses, or whether the declarations contained in that Speech were to be taken as from an accredited source?
Lord Althorpsaid, although that was not the precise moment when a question of such a nature should have been put to him—the proceeding being one
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which was, according to the rules of Debate, generally taken on going into a Committee of Supply—yet he had no objection to give an answer to the question of the noble Lord; but in so doing, he hoped the House would pardon him if he entered a little more into details than the mere fact of giving an answer might seem to require. The question of the disposal of the fortresses, it should be recollected, was not in his department: but he would, nevertheless, state all, consistent with not divulging the present state of the negotiations, which he knew on the subject. It must be admitted by every one, that unless the extensive fortifications erected as barriers against the attacks of the French on the side of Belgium, were properly garrisoned, they would be of no avail for the purposes for which they were kept up. Now, in the present state of Belgium, and under the government now placed over that country, it could not be expected that the Belgian would submit to the expense of maintaining a sufficient number of native troops to garrison these fortresses; and it was impossible to suppose, that the stipulations of the Treaty of 1815 could now be maintained so as to allow these fortresses to be still garrisoned by the troops of the different Powers who were interested in their maintenance The question then was, whether it could be considered advantageous to any party to keep up such a line of frontier fortresses, with garrisons necessarily reduced so low, that in case of war, France could easily, if she made a rapid movement, seize and make them the base of her operations, so that instead of being a protection, they would prove a means of assaulting Belgium. In this view of the case it did not appear, that the keeping up of these fortresses was of so much importance as it had formerly been considered—and there was certainly now an agreement entered into, on the settlement of the affairs of Belgium, that a portion of these fortresses should be dismantled. It did appear to them, if Europe required a guarantee against the attacks of France, that the acknowledgment of the perfect neutrality of Belgium by France, in conjunction with all the great Powers, would be much more likely to secure their object than the keeping up a few weakly-garrisoned fortresses. He admitted, that all guarantees, unless the interests of nations were bound up in their support, must be

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considered as little better than waste paper; but in this case he believed it would be found that the interests of all parties would be consulted by the arrangement. He was sure it would be for the interests of England and the other Powers of Europe, that Belgium should be a neutral State; and it must be the interest of France to feel that a part of her frontier was secure against the attacks of an enemy. With these views the Government had acted in the course of the negotiations, and although the result had been disclosed a little more suddenly than usual on such occasions, still he had no hesitation in stating at once, that the communication made by the King of the French was fully warranted, and that, a part of these frontier fortresses were to be demolished.
The Marquis of Chandos:—will the noble Lord say what part?
Lord Althorpwas not prepared to say what part, and indeed must decline stating anything further.
Mr. George Robinsonobserved, that this then, was the termination of all the arrangements made at the conclusion of the war. The Government of this country had expended all the sums it had received by way of indemnity from France on the repair of their fortresses, while the other Powers of Europe received their share to be applied to their own expenses, and yet he would venture to say, that the present Government of this country had not stipulated for the repayment of a single shilling of the money from France, now that France was to receive all the benefit arising from the dismantling. As far as the guarantee was concerned, he would say, that events would probably show, it was not worth more than so much waste paper.
Lord Althorpreminded the hon. Member, that the present Government was not answerable for the expenditure of which he complained.

FRENCH TRIUMPH IN PORTUGAL.
The Marquis of Chandossaid, he wished further to know, whether there was any truth in the statement made in the Speech of the King of the French, that the tri-coloured flag floated over the walls of Lisbon?
Lord Althorpcould not answer that question, as he had had no opportunity of speaking with his right hon. friend, the First Lord of the Admiralty, on the subject. But the Speech of the King of the French
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did not state, that the tri-coloured flag waved on the walls, but under the walls of Lisbon.
Lord Stormontasked the noble Lord (Lord Althorp), whether he would have any objection to allow some day to be set apart for the discussion of foreign politics. Events had taken place of so extraordinary a character, that notwithstanding the compromise which had been entered into with respect to the discussion of the Reform Bill, some day (whatever day the noble Lord might choose) ought to be devoted to their consideration.
Lord Althorpsaid, that Government could fix no day for the discussion, while the negotiations were pending, but it was competent for any Gentleman to bring forward a motion on the subject.
Lord Stormontintimated his intention of doing so, for in his opinion, the question of Reform was of inferior importance at the present moment to our foreign relations.
Lord John Russellstated, there would be no objection on the part of Ministers to discuss foreign politics, whenever the noble Lord (Lord Stormont) should think proper to bring them under the consideration of the House; and he had no doubt that his noble friend (Lord Palmerston), who had just entered the House, would be ready to give all the information on the subject which was consistent with his public duty. But his purpose in rising at present was to state—what, perhaps, would not be properly understood from the Speech of the King of the French, that the demolition of the fortresses was not to take place immediately, but was to be consequent on the recognition of the King of Belgium by all the principal Powers of Europe, and on some arrangement which were to be formed by them.
Colonel Evansquite agreed with the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) that the fortresses were too numerous and too large; and he concurred in thinking, that it was the interest of the different Powers to preserve the neutrality of Belgium.
The petitions to be printed.
Lord Althorp moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Captain W. Gordonsaid, that in consequence of a paragraph which appeared in the Speech of the King of the French, he wished to know from the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) whether he had received any information of the French

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squadron having forced a passage up the Tagus?
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that he had just received accounts from the English Ambassador at Paris, stating, that a telegraphic despatch had been received at Paris, containing information that the Commander of the French fleet had renewed the demands for satisfaction made by the French government, and that not having obtained the required satisfaction, the French fleet had entered the Tagus. A slight resistance was made by one of the forts, but when the accounts came away, the French fleet had entered the Tagus, and the government of Portugal had acceded to the demands of France.
The House then went into a Committee of

SUPPLY—CONSULS.
Mr. SpringRice moved, that there be granted a sum of 112,195 l., to defray the charges of our Foreign Consuls abroad; and also of the Superannuation Allowances to retired British Consuls for the present year.
Mr. George Robinsonwished to take the opportunity of making a few remarks on the merits of the former and the present system of appointing and paying our Foreign Consuls. Formerly the Consuls were mostly resident merchants at certain ports, and were paid by fees, which were in some instances, he admitted, improperly and arbitrarily demanded, to the manifest injury and dissatisfaction of our merchants trading thither. These situations had now for some years been filled by persons, expressly sent out for this purpose, at large salaries, to obviate the inconvenience of these enormous fees being occasionally exacted from our merchants and captains on arriving at these ports. The salaries of all these persons were much too large, and though the vote this year was less than last, he hoped it would be further reduced; and finally, that the old system of paying Consuls by fees would be re-adopted. These people could not now be got rid of, because the country must grant them a large retiring allowance. It was one of the worst evils of our present system, that plans were devised and carried into execution at a great expense, were found not to answer, and then the persons who had to execute them became a great burthen on the public. Another evil had arisen from that which had been intended to heal the evils complained of—
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namely, that the naming of those Consuls became often a too-expensive species of job. What was the use of Consuls-general? They were generally ignorant of mercantile affairs, and were only known by enormous salaries and large retiring allowances. What had we to do with Consuls-general at Washington, at Paris, and Madrid, all being far distant, the latter several hundred miles, from the sea? Those sent to South America were far too well paid for the labour attached to their office. Yet he could find some excuse for their salaries, for they had to perform the functions of Ambassadors as well as Consuls. At the same time, the whole establishment was on much too magnificent a scale, and required revision. In most cases, the American Consuls were an overmatch for ours, where the interests of British trade were concerned, and yet they did not cost the tenth of the sum. He believed, however, that the present Government was well inclined to make reductions, and he was glad to see, that the Consul at Lisbon had now a salary of 600 l. instead of 1,200 l. a-year. He wished particularly to inquire, why the Consul at Madrid had not had his salary reduced to the same amount.
Viscount Palmerstonobserved, that having been but a short time in office, he could at present give little more explanation on this subject, than that the present Government was doing all in its power to moderate the expense to the public in this respect. He was at present engaged with the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, in attempting some improvements, which, he hoped, he should be able to submit next Session to the House. He begged also to remark, that there was this year a reduction of 9,000 l. in the estimate, and that a greater reduction had preceded it in the last year. The saving to the public might either be effected by reducing the number of the appointments, which would be the most directly felt, or by appointing the payments of the Consuls' salary to be made for the most part by fees, at the several ports at which they were stationed. He had the pleasure to acquaint the hon. Member, that arrangements had been made for discontinuing altogether the appointment of a Consul-general at Washington.
Mr. R. Gordoncontended, that great savings might be effected in this department. This was not a new question, and

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ought not to come upon the noble Lord with surprise, for it had been discussed year after year in the Committees of Supply, and it appeared to be the general impression, that the whole of the consular system required revision. He had often complained of the enormous salaries given to Consuls-general. The noble Lord had been in office nine months, and he thought the department might be reformed in nine days.
Viscount Palmerstonsaid, that doubtless his hon. friend, with his talents and promptness, might do what appeared to him so easy, with regard to the administration of the public business. For his own part, however, and with his own more limited capacity, he was unable to proceed at his hon. friend's rate of velocity.
Mr. Robert Gordonhad no wish to provide the noble Lord with any scheme of improvement, he would rather refer him to the First Lord of the Admiralty. That right hon. Gentleman had a plan ready cut and dried. He told the noble Lord, that he must attend to the matter, and if he did not devise a better system, the House of Commons would. The money was now voted annually.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonsaid, he was aware of the noble Lord's desire to diminish the expenditure, and at the same time to promote the commercial interests, and he relied fully that some measure would be devised by next Session to relieve the public from some part of the expense. He saw not the least use in keeping Consuls-general at Paris, Madrid, and Washington. Consuls, where actually wanted, should be paid by moderate salaries, and fees in proportion to the services they rendered to merchants.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that great caution and deliberation would be necessary, in making any change in the present regulations. It should be recollected, that this system had not been originated by his Majesty's Government, but had been forced upon it by the House of Commons. There was already a reduction in the vote, and great care must be taken in making a total alteration in a measure recommended by that House.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, that the present system had been recommended to the House by a Select Committee on the foreign trade. The merchants were now convinced, that a moderate and well-re-
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gulated system of fees was the best mode of paying Consuls.
Mr. Keith Douglasobserved, that persons had been appointed to those situations who were not the most competent to fill them. When Consuls were paid by fees, they were generally merchants; but since the alteration, persons have held these situations for the sake of the salaries, which were sufficient to maintain those officers in a suitable manner. A judicious system of fees would secure the proper discharge of the duties, and merchants who were better adapted for the situations than any other class of men, would be always found where they were required, and would discharge the duties with satisfaction to all parties.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, that if the present system were to be continued, in preference to the old one, it was certain that it must, at least, undergo considerable revision. The reduction this year did not amount to more than 3,500 l. The Consuls-general at Paris and Madrid ought to be abolished. In South America, it was true, that the Consuls-general performed the duties of Ambassadors; but in the Brazils we had an Ambassador, as well as a Consul-general at Rio, with a salary of 2,500 l. a-year. There was also a Consul at Maranham, with 1,000 l. a-year-another at Pernambuco, and a third at Bahia, with the same salaries. Again, we had a resident at Buenos Ayres, with a large salary, and a Consul-general with 2,500 l. a-year. The expenditure of the country for a series of years had been most lavish. We had Consuls in various parts of France, which were only visited by yachts. He did not wish to return precisely to the old system, but thought an improved plan might easily be devised, by which we might save 50,000 l. a-year, and provide a much more efficient body of Consuls than we now possessed.
Sir John Newportwas of opinion, that a combination of salary and fees, properly regulated, would be the most desirable plan. But if the House were determined to revert to the old system, the change ought not to be adopted without great consideration.
An Hon. Membersaid, the merchants generally wished to adopt a mixed system of payment, partly by fees, partly by salaries. Persons had been appointed, under the present regulations, who were ignorant of the duties of the office.
Sir George Rosethought, that if a scale of fees were established in every port, enforced by the authorities, the complaints would cease. Large fees had been charged for the most trifling services, which had led to the abolition of fees, and he agreed with other hon. Gentlemen in being convinced that Consuls ought to be paid partly by fees, having at the same time small fixed salaries.
Mr. Warburtonconceived, that it would be well to reduce the salaries to about 300 l., as it would then be worth the while of merchants on the spot to accept those appointments, in addition to the profits of their business. If the salaries were large, they would be an object of patronage at the Treasury, and lead to the appointment of inefficient persons.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, Government had declared they had adopted the present system in compliance with the wishes of the House, but that was twelve years ago, and ought not to prevent them from now making desirable changes. He hoped to see a more satisfactory statement next year.
Viscount Palmerstonadmitted a change to be desirable, but the conversation of that evening would show, that great difference of opinion existed, both as to the extent it ought to go, and the mode in which it should be effected. The opinions were quite as various as the speakers, and that might satisfy his hon. friend, the member for Cricklade, that the subject was not so easily regulated as he supposed.
Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY—ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES, &C
Mr. Spring Ricemoved, that the sum of 550,000 l. be granted to his Majesty to defray the extraordinary expenses of the Army for 1831.
Mr. Robert Gordonexpected, that in future these expenses would be arranged into different classes: the salary of the Bishop of Barbadoes was formerly inserted in the vote for Army Extraordinaries.—Agreed to.
The sum of 393,043 l. was voted for the Commissariat Department.
Mr. Spring Rice,in moving the vote for law expenses in Scotland, said, it was right he should state, that hitherto the charge had been paid out of the Excise and Customs duties levied in Scotland.—The sum of 39,835 l. was accordingly granted to defray certain charges in Scot-
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land, hitherto defrayed out of the revenue arising from the Excise and Customs duties.

SUPPLY—COLONIAL EXPENDITURE.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, he would then proceed to the Colonial Votes. He moved that the sum of 2,940 l. be granted to defray the charges of the Bahama islands.
Mr. George Robinsonhoped the promises which had been given, relating to a Colonial Budget, would be fulfilled, and that the House might expect such a document to be placed before them. He wished to know when it was likely to be laid on the Table.
Lord Howicksaid, the preparation of such a document would require considerable time.
Colonel Daviessaid, the colonies of other countries yielded a surplus revenue, but our colonies were a source of expense. The whole subject ought to be investigated by a Committee of the House. The expenditure was so mixed and complicated that no other remedy would be effectual for reducing the expenses.
Mr. Robert Gordonthought the Crown Colonies were the most profuse. In Trinidad, 57,000 l. had been raised, which would be spent by the Governor, without any control. This had been raised by severe exactions; and under the circumstances which had since occurred, ought to be remitted by a reduction of taxation. Instead of that, however, he heard it was to be applied to building a Government House.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, they ought to be acquainted with the amount of revenue raised in the colonies, before they were called upon to make good deficiencies. If, from the distance of the colonies, such an account could not be made up to the close of the preceding year, they ought to have it to the latest possible period.
Lord Howicksaid, he had been no party to a promise for a colonial budget, but he agreed in the opinion that the House ought to have the means of checking the colonial expenditure. At Trinidad, which had been alluded to, he trusted the expenses next year would be considerably reduced. There was a balance in the treasury of that island, but it did not possess a single office for the transaction of public business. Government was paying an exorbitant rent for house-room, and it

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was considered the best economy to ay out the money in building the necessary offices.
Mr. George Robinsonthen must understand, that all the promises relating to a colonial budget were personal, and did not belong to the offices of those who made them.
Mr. Spring Ricehad not heard of the promise until a few nights since, and he had then said, such an account should be furnished next year. Reductions, however, had been made; the vote for Nova Scotia was reduced nearly 4,000 l. The salaries of various functionaries had been omitted, and the Treasury and Colonial Office were in constant communication, consulting on all possible reductions.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, that official promises ought to be recorded in office, and acted upon by the successors of those who made them.
Lord Althorphad never heard, he believed, any thing of such promise, and did not even understand the phrase Colonial Budget.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, there had certainly been an understanding that the receipt and expenditure of each colony should be laid before them.
Mr. Wilkssaid, such a measure was necessary, and whether a promise had been made or not, it ought to be brought forward.
Mr. Robert Gordonsaid, agents for colonies were useless, and yet they received salaries of from 200 to 400 l. a year. If any colony came into collision with the Government, they employed and paid their own agent.
Lord Howicksaid, that several of these offices had been abolished, such as those of the agents for Berbice and Grenada. The agents for New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, must, however, be kept up, as they had important duties to do relating to convicts.
Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY—NOVA SCOTIA.
The next vote was the sum of 6,625 l. to defray the charge of the Civil Establishment of Nova Scotia.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, he was glad to see instances of economy in various departments under this head. He hoped that, although no promise had been made, immediate measures would be adopted further to diminish the civil expenditure in
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Nova Scotia; a colony which had shown its ability to afford 20,000 l. to accomplish local improvements, and 5,000 l. to defray the expenses arising from the improvement of the fisheries. He thought it but fair, at the same time that he expressed the hope of an abatement in the charge for the colony, to acknowledge the apparent determination of his Majesty's Ministers to carry the principle of retrenchment generally to a very advantageous extent.
Mr. Keith Douglasasked, if the Crown had not revenue in Nova Scotia which might be applied to the charges of civil government?
Lord Howicksupposed quit rents for lands were alluded to, but it was found impossible to collect these, and many years were due.
Mr. Warburtonasked, whether it was required, that Professors should sign the Thirty-nine Articles before they could be admitted into the college of Nova Scotia? That was the case in Upper Canada. The expenses of admission were also too great in that college. Nothing would tend to alienate the colonists more than these restrictions on religious opinions. If the Colonial Estimates were again brought forward before these distinctions were abolished, he should divide the House upon the question.
Resolution agreed to.

SUPPLY—BERMUDA.
4,000 l. to defray the charge of the Civil Establishment of the Island of Bermuda was proposed.
Mr. George Robinsoncalled the attention of the Committee to the disproportionate salary of the Secretary of the Colony—disproportionate as compared with the salaries of the secretaries of colonies of larger extent; and the duties of which were, he supposed, of a heavier kind. The salary of the Colonial Secretary of Bermuda was 800 l. a-year, while the salaries of those of other colonies did not amount to more than 500 l. a-year each.
Lord Howicksaid, that the salary of the secretaries to the various colonies were as closely as possible proportioned to the weight and responsibility of the office. The Colonial Secretary of Bermuda united with that situation the office of private Secretary to the Governor, and the salary allowed to him struck the Government as not at all too high, considering the extent and variety of his labours. But the whole

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establishment of that colony had yet to undergo revision.
Mr. George Robinsonsaid, that the Secretary of that most horrible and pestilential colony, Sierra Leone, was allowed no more than 600 l. a-year, while the Secretary of the island of Bermuda was considered entitled to 200 l. a-year more. There certainly appeared to be no ground for giving to that individual a salary almost equal to that of the Governor.
Vote agreed to.
3,320 l. to defray the charge of the Civil Establishment of Prince Edward's Island, for the year 1831, was also voted.

SUPPLY—NEWFOUNDLAND.
The sum of 11,261 l. was then proposed for defraying the charge of the Civil Establishments of Newfoundland.
Mr. George Robinsonopposed this motion. Newfoundland, it should be observed, had no local legislature: and a vote of 11,000 l. was now called for in aid of revenues raised in that colony, not by the power of a local legislature, but by acts of that House. He contended, that money raised in Newfoundland by acts of the legislature here, ought to be accounted for to Parliament, just like any other vote of the public money. He now wished to call the attention of the Committee to the situation in which the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hyde Villiers), who filled the situation of agent for the island, stood at present. The island, he was bound to say, had not derived any benefit from that hon. Gentleman's exertions. He would here shortly give to the House a history of that appointment. Some years ago, the inhabitants of Newfoundland could only communicate with the Government through the medium of the Admiral who was placed on that station. They found, in consequence, that their interests were neglected, and that Government was not properly apprized of their situation. They therefore applied to Government, that they might themselves be allowed to appoint an agent. All they wanted was, a person who should be acquainted with the situation of the country, and who would, consequently, be enabled to place the situation of the colony in its true light before Government. But what did the Government do, in consequence of this application? They immediately appointed au agent themselves, with a salary to be paid out of the revenue of the colony. In the
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observations which he was about to make, he meant nothing personal to the hon. Member, but having a large stake in Newfoundland, he would say to the hon. Member, that he had never given the slightest assistance to that colony. It was undoubtedly right that the hon. Member should not allow his duty with reference to Newfoundland to interfere with that which he owed to the interests of the country in general; but, assuredly, he ought not to be paid out of the revenue of the colony, when, upon various points, he took a view of the interests of Newfoundland totally different from that which was entertained by the inhabitants. He understood, that the hon. Member had now taken office under the Crown—that he had accepted a situation connected with the East Indies. He congratulated the hon. Member on having taken office, and he was convinced that he was extremely well calculated to render good service to any Government to which he might please to attach himself. But if he were placed in a situation which caused his duties to be of a conflicting nature, so that he was compelled, as agent, to take a view of certain matters adverse to the interest of the colony, out of whose revenues he was remunerated, he thought that he ought to feel himself obliged, in honour, to lay down that office. There was no colony better able to support a larger population than Newfoundland, if it had fair play; but, unfortunately, it never had had fair play. He was instructed by the inhabitants of Newfoundland to say, that if a local legislature were granted to them—which they were equally entitled to with the other North American colonies—they would never ask that House for another farthing. Such votes as the present were rendered necessary, by the refusal of the Government to give the inhabitants of the colony a just control over their own affairs. They had as strong claims to that control as any other of our Colonial States; for instance, Bermuda, which was not more than one-third as large, had a domestic legislature. In the present grant was included a sum of 30 l. for the pension of Mrs. Westropp. He knew something of that lady's pension. Her husband had been sent out to the colony as Attorney-general, for which office he was found to be utterly unfit. He must say, in conclusion, that if no reason were given by the hon. member

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for Bletchingly (Mr. Hyde Villiers) for the continuance of this salary to the agent for Newfoundland, he should move, as the only means open to him, that the vote be reduced by 300 l.
Lord Howicksaid, he must, complain that, when questions were asked, hon. Gentlemen should, without, attending to the answers, go on debating those questions as if no answer had been given to them. He appealed to every hon. Gentleman present whether he had not, in answer to a question from the hon. member for Cricklade, stated, that when his hon. friend (the member for Bletchingly) accepted the office of Secretary to the Board of Trade, his hon. friend had intimated to the Treasury that he should no longer draw his salary as agent for Newfoundland. The hon. member for Worcester seemed to know a great deal about Newfoundland, but perhaps it had escaped the hon. member's knowledge, that the Chamber of Commerce at St. John's had sent a vote of thanks to his hon. friend, the member for Bletchingly, which vote was couched in the handsomest terms. In the face of this fact, the hon. member for Worcester came down to that House, and asked hon. Members to believe, upon his individual authority, that the hon. member for Bletchingly was a sinecurist, and that his services were rather hurtful than advantageous to the colony. With regard to the present estimate, he had already promised the House that, in the next Session, a regular statement of the whole expenditure should be laid before it. He did not think this a proper opportunity for entering upon the question of giving a local legislature to Newfoundland. He agreed, however, with the hon. Member, that the wealth and intelligence of these colonists entitled them to a more direct control over their affairs than they at present enjoyed; and he had no hesitation in saying, that to give them such control the Government was most anxious. This, however, was a matter of some difficulty, and required much consideration, because it would be extremely inconvenient and unjust to give to one part of the population a preponderance over the others. The way to avoid this was not yet apparent.
Mr. G. Robinsonsaid, that he had not heard the answer of the noble Lord to the hon. member for Cricklade: if he had, he should not have made the observations he had made.
Lord Howicksaid, that the question and answer had occurred in a debate to which the hon. Member himself had given rise, and the hon. Member was in the House when the answer was given.
Mr. Hyde Villierssaid, that it was hardly necessary he should say any thing after what had fallen from the noble Lord, only he did not choose to remain silent under the imputations which had been cast upon him by the hon. member for Worcester. He had considered himself as holding this office for the benefit of the colony, and with no other view whatsoever. The Chamber of Commerce being the only part of the population that acted in a corporate capacity, he had communicated with the members of the Chamber, and stated to them, that he did not wish to hold the office one moment after they should come to the opinion that his services were not beneficial to the colony. And what had the Chamber of Commerce done? Had they asked him to relinquish the office? On the contrary, in every report they had made they had acknowledged his services in the handsomest manner, and particularly by the recent vote of thanks to which his noble friend had alluded, but which was far too flattering for it to be becoming in him to do more than glance at. At the same time he was bound to admit, that there were some members of the colony who wished to see the hon. member for Worcester in this office, and perhaps the hon. member himself participated in that wish. He had only to add, as the noble Lord had already stated to the Committee, that he had declined to draw his salary any longer as agent for the colony.
Mr. Huntthought, that as the hon. Gentleman had given up the salary, they ought to be benefitted by it, and that the vote ought to be reduced by 300 l.
Mr. George Robinsonrepeated, that he had not before heard the statements which had now been made. The hon. member for Bletchingly, however, was mistaken if he thought that he (Mr. Robinson) was not aware of the vote of thanks from the Chamber of Commerce. The hon. Member might shake his head, but he could tell the hon. Member, that he had received from the Chamber of Commerce an account of all their proceedings; and further, that the Chamber of Commerce had acted, he might say, almost under his advice. He had not gone into all his

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objections to this vote, one part of which—he meant the expense of the Government-house—would justify him in objecting to it altogether. He should now, after what had passed, and after the unsatisfactory nature of what had fallen from the noble Lord with regard to giving a local legislature to the colony, object to the vote altogether.
Mr. Spring Riceentreated the Committee to observe the course which the hon. member for Worcester had pursued; first, the hon. Member objected to the vote on account of a certain 300 l., and then he farther objected to it on account of the constitution of the colony. To the first objection the hon. Member had received, as he himself admitted, a complete and satisfactory answer. Then, as to the constitution of the colony, the hon. Member had received from his noble friend a frank admission, that the wealth and the intelligence of the colony had made it a matter of anxious consideration to give to Newfoundland a local legislature; but his noble friend had said, that this subject required time, because it was difficult to form such a plan as would prevent giving an undue preponderance to a particular part of the colony. Having received these answers, then what did the hon. member for Worcester do? Why, finding that his objection as to the 300 l. fell to the ground, the hon. Member turned round, and said, that he would object to the vote altogether—to the whole vote—until the Government gave a new constitution to Newfoundland. Now surely a Committee of Supply was not the proper place wherein to discuss the nature of a new constitution for this colony; and such a course came, he must say, with a peculiarly bad grace from the hon. member for Worcester, who had given notice of a motion which would bring the whole subject under the consideration of the House. He did not deny that there were many objections to these Estimates, which he had before characterised as calculated to delude hon. Members, and to keep from the House the knowledge of the real amount and nature of the expenditure. The expenditure of the Government-house was a proof of this. The original estimate for that house, as agreed to by Parliament, was 8,778 l. But what sum did the Committee suppose had actually been laid out upon the house? Why, the whole expenditure, exclusive of stores sent from England, was 30,158 l.,
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although the estimate had been only 8,778 l. He said, that this was the amount of the expenditure, exclusive of stores sent from England. Now some of the hon. Gentlemen opposite knew a good deal about Newfoundland, and could, therefore, tell whether there was any stone in the colony. It was well known, that there was plenty, and hon. Members must be very much surprised to learn, that granite had been sent from England for building this house. He had no hesitation in saying, that such a house was quite unnecessary; but, even if it had been necessary, still the Government ought to have been applied to for permission to lay out such a sum of money upon a house, the cost of which, in the estimate laid before them, was put at 8,778 l., and not at 30,158 l. Hon. Members would observe, by a Treasury Minute that had been laid upon the Table, that effectual means had been taken to guard against the recurrence of such a circumstance; that estimates of every work would be laid before the House previous to the work being undertaken; and that, in succeeding estimates, the House would have an opportunity of seeing whether the original estimates had been exceeded.
Mr. Huntthought, that the hon. member for Worcester would have been justified in objecting to the vote after the pedantic speech of the noble Lord, had it not been done away by the effect of the explanation just given. He had no notion of Members of that House being schooled by school-boys.
Mr. John Woodwished to know how the 22,000 l. more than the estimate was paid.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that was a proceeding not to be defended, and grew out of the bad arrangements of the Army Extraordinaries. Estimates, when exceeded, were paid for by Commissaries drawing bills, without specifying the particular services for which the money was required. Three classes of bills were drawn; first, those for bullion deposited abroad, which was matter of convenience, the Government losing nothing by the transaction; but it afforded a means of doing wrong, as the Government could not possibly know, when the bills were presented for payment, whether the bullion had been lodged, or not. Secondly, there were bills drawn on votes of supply; and, lastly, there were unauthorized bills, for

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which no funds had been provided. It was this last description of bills which had permitted the abuse referred to, and which must be abolished, by not granting money without an estimate of expenditure. There were certain cases which could not be thus provided for, but the Army Extraordinaries were intended to meet these. It was the duty of Government to specify every expense that was possible, previously; and it was the duty of the House to call for explanations and details of the expenditure; and, if the House wished to have these details for the subject at present under consideration, the Government would have no objection to furnish them. This related to the past; for the future they would endeavour to reform the system.
Mr. John Woodsaid, he had thought, that what came out upon the Navy Estimates had been bad enough; but this affair of the Government-house at Newfoundland was much worse. In the case of the Navy Estimates, the money voted by Parliament to buy timber had been applied to building walls; but here was an expenditure, totally unauthorised by Parliament, defrayed by unauthorized bills. He hoped, that measures would be taken to prevent anything of the kind happening again, for he was sure, that a Reformed Parliament would impeach any Minister who should do the like.
Mr. R. Gordonsaid, that, this proceeding shewed the propriety of the advice he had frequently given. He had often urged upon Government the adoption of a principle which he hoped his Majesty's present Ministers would act upon—namely, to propose the Estimates always a year in advance. That principle was the one which was followed in France, and if it had been adopted here, they would be now voting the Estimates for 1832, with which they could deal as they pleased in the way of retrenchment, instead of the Estimates before them, the greater portion of which had been already expended. It was impossible to refuse this vote, because the money had already been expended, and yet it was plain, if that were not the case, that the House would refuse its sanction to such a wasteful expenditure.
Sir James Grahamsaid, that he fully concurred with his hon. friend as to the adoption of the principle to which he had alluded, and he was sure that his hon. friend would be glad to hear, that as far as
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the Navy Estimates were concerned, that principle had been already acted upon to a great extent. He (Sir J. Graham) had, by means of the unappropriated balances, been enabled to carry on the service of the Navy up to the 1st of April without drawing on the Estimates of the current year; and he believed, that the Estimates for that department, voted in the present year, would defray all the charges up to April in the next year; and as the Estimates for the next year would be voted before the month of April, the House would then have the advantage which the hon. Member wished to secure to them—namely, that of having Estimates brought before them and voted previously to the expenditure of the sums named in those Estimates. He mentioned these circumstances to show that he continued now, on that side of the House, of the same opinion that he had been when on the other, and that as he had then supported the recommendation of the hon. Member, so he now endeavoured, as far as circumstances would permit him, to act upon it.
Mr. Pagethoped, that the promises given by the Ministers would be kept. He should be most happy to see their fulfilment. At the same time he was bound to acknowledge, that as far as he had observed the Ministers, their promises were made in good faith.
Mr. Spring Ricewished to prevent any misapprehension regarding this vote for the Government-house at Newfoundland. He had, undoubtedly, stated, that the original Estimate was 8,778 l. and that the expenditure, exclusive of stores, was up-wards of 30,000 l. Of this sum, 18,124 l. was taken by votes in the years 1828 and 1829; so that the sanction of Parliament had been already obtained to that extent. But the votes were not proposed until the money had been expended, and they objected to that principle. The whole cost of the House, including furniture, amounted to 38,175 l., shewing an excess over the sums voted, of above 20,000 l. The explanation of this transaction would be furnished in the accounts to be produced.
Mr. Wilksthought the conduct of Ministers, in this instance, had been most praiseworthy.
Colonel Sibthorpmust beg to see the promises performed, before he could eulogize the persons making them.
Mr. Ruthvenconsidered the public under great obligations to the hon. Mem-

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ber for Worcester for calling the attention of the Committee to the subject of Newfoundland. He quite agreed with him in the propriety of giving a Legislative Assembly to that colony, which would tend to exalt the character of the colonists. He hoped, too, the Government would bring forward a Colonial Budget.
Mr. George Robinsonhoped his suggestions would be attended to, and would not, therefore, divide the Committee.
Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY—SIERRA LEONE.
On the question that a sum of 9,730 l. be granted to defray the expenses of the Civil Establishments at Sierra Leone,
Lord Granville Somersetwished to ask the noble Lord opposite, whether it was the intention of the Government to act upon the recommendation of the Committee, and remove the establishment from Sierra Leone to Fernando Po? and he also wished to know from the noble Lord, whether the late accounts of Fernando Po justified the expectations which had been formed of that establishment, with respect to its superior salubrity? If the appearance of the persons who had come to this country as witnesses upon this subject was to form the ground of judgment on this question, it seemed to him that it must be answered in the negative.
Lord Howicksaid, that the answers to these questions were, perhaps, difficult, on account of the circumstances under which these colonies were placed. It had been the intention of the Government to remove the establishment from Sierra Leone to the Island of Fernando Po, and to make the latter the seat of the mixed Commission. A beginning had been made, to remove the establishment; but after the preparations had been commenced, and some progress made in effecting the change, Spain had put in a claim to that island, and refused to abandon that claim except upon payment of a very large sum of money. According to the terms of the Act of Parliament, and according to the terms of the Treaty, the Court of mixed Commission could only sit in the British dominions. Now, the Island of Fernando Po could not be made a part of the British dominions, except upon the payment of the sum of 100,000 l. The payment of such a sum was entirely out of the question, as the English only wanted such a quantity of land as would
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be sufficient for the purpose of the mixed Commission sitting there. As Spain, at present, continued to assert her claim to this sum for the island, it was likely that the settlement of Fernando Po must be given up. He ought to add, that according to the late accounts, Fernando Po was not much better, as far as salubrity was concerned, than Sierra Leone. He hoped, that the excessive mortality at Sierra Leone, which had produced so strong a sensation in this country, would soon be avoided, by some arrangement, by which men of colour from the West-Indian Islands would be procured, of sufficient ability to fill the greater part, if not the whole, of the official situations in the colony.
Mr. Keith Douglassaid, that the West-Indians had to complain of the continued existence of the foreign slave-trade. Notwithstanding the treaties that had for so many years existed on that subject, the foreign slave-trade was now greater than ever. France did not act up to her treaty; and the French, notwithstanding their repeated assurances, still continued to carry on that trade, in such a manner as defied any means to put it down. It was the intention of his hon. friend to bring the subject before the House, and direct the attention of the Government especially to it. He believed, that the whole matter depended upon the conduct of France. If that country would give us the mutual right of search, he was sure that the trade might easily be put down, and that a small squadron would be sufficient for that purpose. The establishment at Sierra Leone might then be abandoned, and the expense of completing that at Fernando Po would be unnecessary. Sierra Leone had been excessively expensive to the country. From the year 1807, when the place was first purchased by the Government, of the Company which had established itself there, up to the year 1824, a sum of no less than 2,268,000 l. had been expended on the colony. From the year 1824 up to 1831, the expense was 1,082,000 l. From the year 1807, up to 1824, the expense of the naval establishments kept up for that colony was 1,630,000 l. The payments to Spain and Portugal amounted to 1,230,000 l. The sums expended for the purchased captives amounted to 533,000 l.; other incidental expenses came to 93,000 l.; and the expense of Commissions was no less than

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190,000 l.—sums which, taken together, amounted to nearly eight millions. He trusted, that some steps would be taken by the Government for securing the observance of these treaties.
Sir George Murraysaid, that the situation of Fernando Po was more commodious than that of Sierra Leone, for many different purposes, but then there was difficulty in getting rid of Sierra Leone, and breaking up the establishment there. Unhappily, however, Fernando Po did not appear to be much more salubrious than the other settlement. Originally there had been one Spanish and one English Commission, each sitting on its own territory, and that had led to the formation of a mixed Commission. The difficulty then occurred to which the noble Lord had already alluded. Still, however, he did not think, that there would be any insuperable objection offered by Spain to some arrangement for the sitting of the mixed Commission at Fernando Po. He did not think, that Spain would persist in demanding so large a sum for her claim on that settlement, so that the only difficulty standing in the way, would be that of accommodating the treaty, so as to meet the views of both Governments. With respect to the mortality which, he admitted, had been terrible in Sierra Leone, he believed that it had been greater some years ago than it was at present. The diminution arose from the circumstance that more of the offices were now filled by men of colour, and there were fewer Europeans at the settlement than formerly. He thought that, by the plan which had been suggested, of introducing West-Indians into the colony, and appointing them to fill the offices, the extraordinary mortality might disappear. He wished to see the colony continued; for he looked to it as the best means for the introduction of civilization into Africa. He admitted, that the expenses connected with it had been enormous; and he agreed with the hon. Member who had preceded him, that the great cause of the continuance of the slave trade had been the want of all zealous co-operation on the part of France in putting it down.
Colonel Torrenssaid, that he had that day received letters which stated, that Fernando Po—now that the woods were partially cleared away, was becoming more healthy. He trusted, that the establishments might be kept up; for he believ-
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ed, now, that the source of the Niger was discovered, they might be made useful for commercial purposes. In that way, too, they would aid in effecting the original object of their establishment; for, if commerce were introduced among the tribes of Africa, he believed, that the horrid practice of making war, in order to sell the captives, would be gradually extinguished. It was clear, that little could be done for the benefit of our West-Indian possessions, unless the foreign slave-trade was put down; for, while that existed, it was impossible for our colonies to compete in the market with the planters in colonies belonging to governments which permitted the slave-trade. Upon all these considerations, he must say, that he regretted this country was not to have permanent possession of Fernando Po.
Mr. Hammersleyagreed with the hon. Gentleman in the expediency of retaining a settlement near the mouth of the Niger, but he believed, that Fernando Po would turn out to be a most unhealthy station. He had submitted a statement to the Government, tending to prove, that we might derive a trade of considerable importance from the Coast of Africa. We ought to endeavour to introduce commerce among the African tribes, as the best means of preventing the slave-trade they now carried on with the ships of different nations. He had produced a plan to the present Ministry for a system of reciprocity in commerce, which, if adopted, would put down the slave-trade better than all our ships on the station could do it.
An Hon. Memberstated, that it would be impossible to put an end to the slave-trade, unless the right of search was conceded by the French Government. This nefarious traffic was still carried on, to an extent not generally known, by vessels sailing under the French flag.
Sir J. Grahamagreed, that the mutual right of search was necessary, as the slave-trade was now carried on by Spanish vessels sheltering themselves under French colours, because search was not allowed by France, while it had been conceded by Spain. Every exertion should be made by the British Government to obtain from France a right of search, which he was confident, if granted, would be most effectual in putting an end to the slave-trade. Fernando Po had advantages as a naval station, but the island belonged to the King of Spain, who was willing we

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should incur expenses in making a settlement, but refused to surrender his right of Sovereignty over the island.
Sir Stratford Canningheard, with great satisfaction, the observation which had just fallen from the First Lord of the Admiralty. He had suggested the expediency of renewing the treaty made with the American government four or five years ago, a treaty recognising the right of search, and which was approved of by the American Government; but, unfortunately, was not ratified by the Senate of the United States.
Resolution agreed to.
A sum not exceeding 4,000 l. to defray the expenses of Forts at Cape Coast Castle, on the coast of Africa, was voted.

SUPPLY—PROPAGATION OF THE GOSPEL.
The next vote was, that a sum not exceeding 16,000 l. be granted to defray the expenses of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in certain of his Majesty's colonies for the year 1831.
Mr. Warburtonobserved, that it was not his intention to divide the Committee on the vote, being aware that a large proportion, if not the whole, of the sum now called for was already due and expended. He was confident, however, that no vote could tend more to alienate the affections of the inhabitants of the colonies from the mother country than this had done, by voting so large a sum for the exclusive support of the Anglican Church, when, in many of the colonies, the great majority of the inhabitants were of a different religious persuasion. If a material reduction did not take place in this estimate, when it was next brought forward, he should certainly divide on it.
Mr. Wilkswould second such a motion should it be made by the hon. member for Bridport. This vote created dissension and disunion in the colonies, instead of promoting affection to the mother country. The system pursued in Canada was deserving of the most serious attention. One-seventh of the whole territorial property was reserved exclusively and illiberally for the Clergy of the Established Church, three-fourths of the inhabitants being adverse to the doctrines of that Church. A College, too, had lately been established in Upper Canada, founded on exclusive and illiberal principles. Under such circumstances, he conceived, that the House was called on to oppose all grants that were intended ex-
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clusively to benefit one sect and nourish intolerance.
Mr. Laboucherewas anxious that the Resolution should not be passed until he had obtained from Government a distinct explanation, whether it was intended to propose a similar grant in future—in other words, whether Ministers were in favour of the principle of the grant. He admitted, that a sudden and large reduction of the vote would be attended with most injurious consequences to a number of highly respectable individuals, now receiving salaries, but thought that some notice of an intention to diminish the vote hereafter might be given. He also expressed his strong objections to the Clergy reserves, against which he had a petition to present, as well as against the College in Upper Canada, established on principles which prevented nine-tenths of the population from partaking of its advantages. He wished, therefore, to know—1. Whether the grant was in future to be persevered in? 2. Whether the Colonial Department intended to examine into the subject of the Clergy reserves? 3. Whether the Charter of the University of Upper Canada was under consideration, with a view to some change in it?
Mr. Warburtonwished likewise to be informed, whether Ministers were not in possession of a memorial from the Bishop and Clergy of Quebec, praying, that the Clergy reserves might not be divided with the Church of Scotland? It had always been understood in that House, that the reserves should be divided between the Church of England and the Church of Scotland.
Lord Althorpsaid, that his Majesty's Government certainly did not defend this grant on principle; but the question was one of considerable difficulty, involving the whole Church Establishment, and the religious education of the people of the colonies. It was impossible, therefore, to take any sudden and unadvised step; at the same time, he fully admitted, that it was not fitting that this country should pay for supporting a Church Establishment in Canada. It was the intention of his Majesty's Government to reduce the grant, therefore, and to do away with it entirely I as soon as possible. The question relating to the Clergy reserves was under consideration, but it was one on which he could give no pledge; and, as to the college established in Upper Canada, he could only

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state, that it was also under consideration. He was not aware, that any representation had been made from the Clergy of Quebec on the subject to which the hon. member for Bridport's question referred.
Mr. Huntsaid, it might astonish the new Members to hear, that this very grant had been opposed and discussed with great talent, last year, by the members of the present Ministry. It was then proposed, by way of amendment, that 8,000 l. should be deducted from the grant at once, and that the other half should cease in 1831, or at this period. He held in his hand the names of the Minority of forty-six who voted for that Amendment, and he had only to state, that the first name was Lord Althorp, and the last Lord Howick. Fortified by the precedent then set, it was his (Mr. Hunt's) present intention to follow the example of his Majesty's Ministers, and he should conclude with moving, by way of Amendment, that half the grant should be reduced at once, and the remaining half in 1832. He was not intimately acquainted with the colonies, like some hon. Members, but he was acquainted with a clergyman, the Rev. Mr. Griffin, who had petitioned the House some years ago, and who had been sent out by the Society for Promoting the Gospel, as Rector of St. George's, Prince Edward's Island. From this Gentleman he (Mr. Hunt) derived more information as to the proceedings of the Society, than had come to the knowledge of either the present or the late Administration. The money necessary for carrying on the operations of the Society in the colonies was proposed to be raised by subscription, and the deficiency was to be made up by Parliament. Now he begged to call the attention of the Committee to the proportion voted by Parliament, and the whole sum "risen" by subscription [laughter]. It always afforded great amusement to Gentlemen when he (Mr. Hunt) made a mistake. When others made the most egregious grammatical errors, it only created a smile; but when he slipped there was a loud laugh, which proved, no doubt, how anxious they were to set him right. Since 1814, the sum collected in churches, by virtue of the King's Letter, for this Society, was 55,869 l.; the sum raised by Subscription, 33,343 l., and the sum voted by Parliament, 203,088 l. So much for the manner in which the funds of the Society were raised. And now for its practice:—when Mr. Griffin
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was sent, with a salary of 200 l. per annum, to Prince Edward's Island, he found there was neither a church nor a congregation, and he reported accordingly. He was told, that he must not make such reports, for that they were not satisfactory. Having reported the truth in the same way next year, he was removed to the district colony of Nova Scotia, and there a place was pointed out to him, where half-a-dozen boards were nailed together, and this building, which was filled with sheep, he was told was his church. Having reported this, Mr. Griffin, whose moral and religious character was unimpeached, was found not to be the tractable man which the Society wanted, and he was recalled; and for having stated those facts in his reports, he was so persecuted, that no Bishop would now give him a license to preach. In looking into the transactions of the Society, it appeared that Bishop Inglis had a salary of 2,400 l. and Archdeacon Willis a salary of 1,700 l., and several other clergymen enjoyed very large salaries. The Society had two estates left to it, in the island of Barbadoes, containing 700 slaves, and the labour of those slaves, and the produce of the two estates, went to support a college for the education of the children of placemen and pensioners; and the principal of the college, the Rev. Mr. Pindar, had a salary of 1,000 l. a year. Thus they found, that the labour of slaves was appropriated by this Society to inculcate the doctrines of the Christian religion. When such facts were stated, he asked, could the Committee think he was wrong in following the example set by his Majesty's Government last year, in proposing that the vote should now be reduced one-half, and that the whole should cease in 1832?
Lord Howickhoped the hon. member for Preston would keep his word, when the course followed last year, by persons now in office, was explained. He (Lord Howick, moved the amendment which the hon. Member alluded to, and now professed to follow. That amendment was moved, not with a view to an immediate reduction in the vote, which could not be carried into effect without great hardship to individuals, but to express the sense of the Committee, that the principle of the grant was wrong. The present Government admitted, that the principle was wrong, and his noble friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) pledged himself

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that the grant should be reduced. If that pledge had been made last year by the right hon. Gentleman, then at the head of the Colonial Department, he (Lord Howick) would have withdrawn his amendment, as he hoped the hon. member for Preston would now do. There were a considerable number of clergymen, exemplary and excellent persons, employed by the Society, on the faith of this grant, upon salaries barely sufficient for their subsistence, and which it would be a cruel injustice to withdraw from them. All the Government could do was, not to sanction any new persons being sent out, and to call on the Society in future to defray its own expenses. The Society was a most useful and excellent one; and one great objection to the principle of the grant was, that it went to dry up the sources of private charity. He hoped, however, that the Committee would not sanction the amendment, as it would leave several clergymen in a state of destitution. In fact, a part of the money was already spent.
Mr. R. Gordondid not think the argument of the noble Lord (Lord Howick) satisfactory. The noble Lord had been eight months in office, and this vote ought to have been taken under consideration in that time, and some reduction made. This grant was objectionable, if upon no other ground, because the money was expended by an unauthorised and irresponsible body, and the reports of the Society proved, as he contended, that its own funds had been much mismanaged for five or six years. As an instance of the exclusive principle adopted, he need only state, that the Bishop of the Established Church in Nova Scotia had a salary of 2,000 l. per annum, whilst the Presbyterian minister had only 75 l. per annum; and yet the Presbyterians were to the persons professing the doctrines of the Church of England in that colony as three to one. He could not but hope, under all the circumstances, that some reduction would be made in the grant.
Mr. Huntwas quite satisfied, that no injury could arise to the clergymen of the Established Church by the reduction of this grant. The Church of England was too rich and too generous to suffer her clergy to want. In reply to what had been stated respecting the character of the clergy, he would only say, that if such was the fact, there was the less necessity for the vote.
Mr. Briscoesaid, that after the candid and just statement of the noble Lord, no blame could be imputed to Government; he would, therefore, recommend the hon. member for Preston not to divide.
Sir R. Inglisjustified the grant, because he thought it an imperative duty on Government to introduce the true principles of Christianity into every country we colonized. He did not think it judicious, therefore, to reduce the grant.
Colonel Evanswould not object to the grant for this year, but he hoped, that an understanding would be come to, that it should be discontinued or reduced for the future.
Sir J. M. Doylesaid, a rich benefice in Ireland was now vacant, and he did not see why 8,000 l. should not be taken from that valuable See to make good the vote.
Mr. R. Gordonwas ready to give up his opposition to the vote, if Ministers would agree to a Committee of Inquiry for the next year.
Mr. Huntwas ready to withdraw his Amendment, if the suggestion of the hon. member for Carlow (Sir John Doyle) was acted on. The statements he had made rested on the assertions of the Rev. Mr. Griffin.
Mr. Baringthought the Committee could not in justice refuse the grant, as three-fourths of the year had already expired, and the colonies, therefore, had a right to it for that year. He must say, however, that he did not approve of such a mode of supporting Christianity. In the colonies, for which these large grants were made yearly for the propagation of the Gospel, the English Church was on the decline, while in the State of New York it was most thriving, where it was left entirely to its own merits. He would agree to the grant for this year, but hoped, that Government would come to some resolution for the gradual abolition of it.
The Committee divided:—For the original Motion 65; Against it 27—Majority 38.

List of the Noes.

Benett, J.

Ingilby, Sir W. A.

Blanckney, W.

Knight, R.

Dawson, A.

Lambert, H.

Dick, Q.

Lambert, J. S.

Dixon, J.

Mullins, F. W.

Doyle, Sir J. M.

Musgrave, Sir R.

Dundas, Hon. T.

Paget, T.

Gordon, R.

Power, R.

Grattan, J.

Sheil, R. L.

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Thicknesse, R.

Williams, Sir J.

Walker, C. A.

Wood, J.

Warburton, H.

Wyse, T.

Watson, Hon. R.

TELLER.

Wilbraham, G.

Hunt, H.

Wilks, J.

47,500 l. for public stores at Van Diemen's Land, and 37,154 l. for Fernando Po, were next voted.

SUPPLY—SWAN RIVER.
On the question being put, that a sum not exceeding 24,895 l. be granted to defray the expenses of the Swan River establishment,
Mr. Huntwished to know what were the latest accounts from that settlement, and whether it was likely to answer the expectation of Government?
Lord Howicksaid, the accounts received lately were more satisfactory.
An Hon. Membersaid, originally it was determined that the Governor should have no salary, but a grant of land. He saw, however, by these papers, that the Governor was to have a salary, and he wished to know how that was.
Lord Howicksaid, that Captain Stirling, who had planned the colony originally, went out on the condition that he should receive no salary unless it succeeded. His statements had turned out correct, the colony had succeeded, and he did not, therefore think the salary of 800 l. too much.
Colonel Torrensthought, that every colony, even at its commencement, ought to support itself; and the House ought to impress upon the noble Lord and the Government the necessity of acting on such a principle. If this colony had been properly managed, an outlet might have been found for the superabundant population of Ireland, and means provided for diminishing the poor-rates in England.
Mr. Baringdiffered from the gallant Officer; the land of a new colony was worth nothing until it was cultivated, and the mother country must, in the first instance, incur expenses in settling it. After a colony had been some time established, the sale of land might assist in paying expenses. He heard of the flourishing state of the Swan River settlement, with much pleasure, and thought the Governor and planner of the colony fairly entitled to a salary of 8000 l. a-year.
Lord Howicksaid, in reply to what had been suggested by the, gallant Officer (Colonel Torrens), that there was not much
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chance of Government being able to set apart land for the purposes which the hon. Member recommended, because no one would give any consideration for it. After a colony had been established some time, the sale of land might become a valuable resource.
Mr. Sadlerwas decidedly opposed to the principle of the hon. and gallant Member. The first settlement of any country must necessarily be expensive, and the mother country, from a principle of policy, was bound to provide for the wants of the settlers till they could act for themselves. He must, at the same time, deny that labour was at all times redundant in this country.
Colonel Torrensdid not agree with the hon. Member, for he believed, that we had a surplus population, and large sums of money had been offered to Government for their removal. Land was, undoubtedly, a drug in new colonies, but Government should take care no grants were made, and that no individual occupied the best parts of it, without paying for it, when it would cease to be a drug, and become valuable. The colony would be able to supply itself with such an increased quantity of labour as was required. This was the proper plan of colonization, which was calculated to relieve the country from its surplus population.
An Hon. Memberthought, the gallant Officer would find it difficult to make out that we had a surplus rural population.
Mr. Gisborneinquired whether the Governor was to have a grant of land, or moderate salary? He thought the latter would be the best mode of payment; and he wished further to be informed, if he took out any stock or capital?
Lord Howicksaid, it was determined that the Governor should have a permanent salary, and it was included in the present vote. He was not aware of the amount of stock or capital taken out by the Governor, but had no doubt, as he was a gentleman of great intelligence, he did what was prudent and right.
Mr. Huntconsidered Government had adopted a singular course with regard to this colony. If it succeeded, the Governor was to be remunerated for his services; but it now turned out, the settlement was so successful, that he was not only to have a salary, but a grant of land into the bargain. He was glad to hear this, for it differed from the published accounts, which described the settlers to be much distressed,

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and leaving the colony for Van Diemen's Land. He did not believe, that this country had a great surplus population, and if it had, they could be employed much better here, than packed off to other countries. In harvest every man could find work, and more would be employed if they were to be had. Let the situation of the farmer be improved, take off a large proportion of the taxes, and there would be no surplus population. He quite agreed with the hon. member for Aldborough in his opinions on this all-important topic.
Mr. Briscoesaid, the only way to ascertain the fact as to a surplus population was, to ascertain the amount of the labour and population in each parish, which could be done through the medium of the parish officers. If they had this data to go upon, surely they might devise some remedial measures.
Mr. Westernagreed with the hon. Members as to the propriety of cultivating our waste lands, but it was in vain to hope, that any beneficial change of measures could be adopted until the surplus population was ascertained and disposed of.
Mr. Benettdid not think there was much, if any, surplus population in the country; and what there was arose from the impediments thrown in the way of productive industry. We now imported, for example, 2,000,000 quartets of foreign wheat, which we could ourselves grow. There was no surplus rural population in harvest time, and the farmers always required the assistance of Irish labourers. At that season all might obtain employment. He agreed with the hon. member for Preston, that if taxes were removed from productive industry, we should have no surplus population, and might employ all our people at home. He believed the land yet untilled might easily be made productive, and to yield greater returns, in proportion to the quantity of seed put into the ground, than the land of these new colonies. It was an extraordinary fact, that capital could be sent abroad, where labour was scarce and high, and corn could be grown cheaper than here, owing to the pressure of taxation, and tithes. He thought, that this matter deserved the most patient investigation, for till the circumstance of America growing corn cheaper than we could was otherwise explained, he should attribute it wholly to our excessive burthens.
Mr. Warburtonthought they were discussing a vote relating to a distant colony,
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but they had got into all the abstruse questions of surplus population, taxes, and tithes. To leave all these, he wished to ask the noble Lord, if he could give any estimate of the amount which would be required for the colony next year, because it was necessary to set some limits to expenses of this kind.
Lord Howickwas unable to give any precise answer to the question, but hoped the expenses would not be large. He had not meant to assert, as seemed to be understood by the hon. member for Preston, that the colony was exempt from the difficulties to which new settlements were always liable. There had been skirmishes with the natives, and many of the settlers had been disappointed, but others had succeeded well, and were satisfied.
Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY—RIDEAU CANAL.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the last vote which he was about to propose was, for a grant of 296,000 l. to complete the water communications in Canada. When the present Government came into office, they found estimates to a large amount for the Rideau Canal, and the works carrying on in Canada; and his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, thought it proper to have these documents laid upon the Table, in order that the opinion of Parliament might be taken upon them. The papers were referred to a Select Committee; and the Select Committee, having investigated the matter, made a report which embodied the vote now asked.
On the Chairman putting the motion,
Mr. Warburtonwished to know, whether any more information had been communicated to the present. Government, as to the sum necessary to complete the works in question, than what the Committee who had recommended the grant, possessed?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that no additional information on that head had been received. He expressed regret, that the information which the former Government had in its possession had not been laid before Parliament, for if so, it would have been more satisfactory. The sums since voted for these works, amounted to about 1,000,000 l. He found by a Minute, that in April, 1826, an estimate of 169,000 l. was made, and an order given to proceed with the works, before any communication was made to Parliament.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, in the absence of the late Under Colonial Secretary, who was now appointed to the Governorship of Ceylon, and under whom the vote complained of was recommended, no satisfactory explanation could be given. He was quite sure, however, that the Ordnance Department had acted in conformity to directions given from the Colonial office. He was sure, that the canal was of the highest importance to the welfare of the colony. The Ordnance Department had acted solely for the defence and the well-being of the colony; and he thought that the Colonial Department was in some degree warranted in their proceedings, from the great benefit, commercial as well as military, likely to ensue.
Mr. George Robinsoncomplained, that although 1,049,000 l. had been already expended on this canal, the work was still imperfect; and more money, it appeared, was still required, to erect defences against the probable incursions of the Indians. The whole expenditure, he could not help considering, under all the circumstances, to be a great misapplication of public money, for which his Majesty's late Government, in his opinion, were justly censurable.
Mr. Laboucherereferred to the existing discontents in the Canadas, and also in Nova Scotia, to which he begged leave to call the attention of the King's Ministers, especially since he had been intrusted with a petition of considerable importance on the subject, which he would take an early opportunity of presenting to the House. The two branches of the Legislature, though the members of each were unanimous among themselves, he regretted to state, were diametrically opposed to one another; and the collision had occasioned so much political jarring and public disquiet, that it had become the indispensable duty of Parliament itself to interpose, by an exercise of its own vigorous authority, without further loss of time. The legislative assembly, he conceived, would never be a complete and satisfactory political body, until a spirit of full, free, and fair election should be effectually infused into the whole mass; and they ought to have either a Governor and a House of Assembly without an intermediate body, or, if they had the latter, it behoved them at once to introduce the principle of election, as Mr. Fox had originally proposed. The next point to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee was, that system by
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which the Government party engrossed the whole of the offices and places at the disposal of the executive. Whether a man was popular or not, he was thrust into office provided he was connected with this little oligarchy. What would be thought in this country, if the Sovereign were to strain his prerogative, and have only what Ministers he liked, whether they were pleasing to the House and the country or not? The result would be, that the country would be in an uproar from one end to the other. Yet this mode of selecting public officers hostile to the feelings of the public, had been the practice in the Canadas for the last ten or fifteen years. He must, however, say, that the people of Canada, in spite of all these grievances, were attached to the British Government, and British connexion, but that was an additional reason why they should expect and obtain justice at our hands.
Sir G. Murraydefended the system adopted towards the Canadas by the late Government. The whole of the works undertaken were, while they tended to strengthen British power in that quarter, also calculated for the great local advantage of the colonists. For his own part, he would say, that the policy of the Colonial Office was, to discourage, as much as possible, party dissensions. One great object which he had endeavoured to impress on the government in the Canadas was, to increase the members of the legislative council, by introducing into it a large number of efficient persons. It was also recommended that Government should be careful to avoid giving one part of the legislature a triumph over the other, which was the foundation of much discontent and heart-burnings in the colony. With respect to the expense of the Rideau canal, it was necessary, not only as a line of defence, but was of the first utility as it concerned the local advantages of the colony.
Colonel Evanssaid, that we should look to the Canadas as a possession on which we could not count permanently; and he did not see the policy of keeping up such a line of defence as was between the Upper and Lower Canadas.
Sir G. Murraysaid, that it would be impossible to retain the Lower Canada, if we lost the Upper. As to the expenditure, he must say, that none was directed by the Colonial Department directly. All expenditure of this kind received, in the first instance, the sanction of the Treasury.
Colonel Evanssaid, the difficulty of maintaining Such a long line of defence would be very great.
Sir G. Murrayreplied, that the practicability of maintaining it had been tried and proved.
Mr. Warburtonasked, whether there was any document in the Treasury to show that the Colonial Department was authorized to expend money on the Canadas without first applying to Parliament.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that there was no document to show, that what he considered the objectionable part of the grant had been sanctioned by the Treasury.
Mr. Huntsaid, this line of defence ought to be left to the inhabitants to maintain; for if war took place with the United States, we were not likely to retain either of the Canadas. There had been some warmth in the discussion, about whether expending a million of money on a canal in Canada was a job or not. In a Reformed Parliament, some person would be made responsible for such acts, but now one party shifted the blame to the other. The House was referred from one officer to a second, then to a third, and so on. He had only to add, that if the Committee divided, he would vote against the grant.
The Motion that 296,000 l. be granted for improving the water-communication between Montreal and the Ottawa to Kingston, and from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario, was carried.

SUPPLY—MILITIA.
Sir H. Parnellmoved, that the sum of 351,360 l. 5s. 1d. be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the charge of the Disembodied Militia of Great Britain and Ireland, for the year 1831.
Mr. George Robinsonobjected to voting so large a grant at so late an hour.
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that of all the grants proposed, this was the least objectionable. It was not an estimate prepared by Government, but was taken on the Report of a Committee to which the several Estimates had been submitted.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that if hon. Members had no objections to the detail, the objection, if any, to the principle, could be better made on bringing up the report.
Mr. Huntprotested against any large grant being voted at that late hour. Instead of the Government economizing, they were expending the money on new schemes, What was the reason for this?
Lord Althorpsaid, the disturbed state of the country made it necessary to call out the Militia this year.
Vote agreed to—House resumed.

PUBLIC WORKS (GREAT BRITAIN).
On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the House went into a Committee to consider of the propriety of issuing Exchequer Bills, to encourage Public Works in Great Britain.
The noble Lord stated, that the object was, to move that his Majesty be empowered to direct an issue of Exchequer Bills for carrying on public works in Great Britain. It was unnecessary for him to remind the Committee of the state in which a great part of England was placed towards the close of the last year, or to observe, that much of this arose from the distress which prevailed amongst the working classes. He was aware, that any measure such as that he was about to propose was only a slight palliative to the evils to which it was to be applied. It would require a much more extensive remedy to cure such evils as those of last year. It would require a revision of the state of the laws affecting the poor, in order to see whether they could guard against such disastrous consequences; but if they looked to the state of the Poor-laws, for it was by a careful revision of those laws that some effectual remedy might be devised, it would be found that an amelioration of those laws would, at the present moment, rather increase than diminish the pressure upon the people. He would not say, therefore, that Government were prepared with any such measure, seeing that its effect must be, to increase that pressure which was already felt so heavily. He was afraid, that if any alterations were made, they would take a wrong direction, and would rather tend to relax than strengthen the operation of those laws. Under these circumstances, it appeared to him, that the lesser evil would be, to advise that an issue of Exchequer Bills be made, to be granted in loans, for the purpose of carrying on public works in Great Britain. He would not say, that the whole sum proposed to be issued would be called for; but if they looked to the experience of former years, they would find, that there had always been a demand for such issues in times of difficulty, and that they had been productive of much public benefit. There were grants of this kind made in 1817 and

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in 1823, and on each occasion with considerable advantage, where the money had been applied to proper objects. Where the aid of such grants had been resorted to, to promote private speculation, it had failed, and had tended to injure that class to which the parties belonged, as it only increased the evil of over-production. This, however, would not apply to the cases of roads and bridges, canals and rail-roads, by which public advantage would be derived, independently of the means of employment thus afforded to the labouring poor. The machinery for the application of such grants was already in existence, and his proposition was, to issue 1,000,000 l. of Exchequer Bills, for the purpose of promoting such works as he had alluded to. It would, of course, be the object of the Commissioners to make such grants where the works were most necessary, always preferring those parts of the country where distress was known to exist. He knew it might be said, that where necessary works were to be carried on, money might be easily obtained on good security. That was true; but it was also known, that individuals were unwilling to embark their money or time in works which, however necessary, afforded a prospect of only a very small profit; but, by money advanced in this way, many useful works might be undertaken, with great advantage to the country. Experience had shown, that the public had not lost by such grants as this. Good security was always taken, and the money was repaid, and with rather more interest than could be obtained on Exchequer Bills in the market; but that was not the object: the great object was, to promote the public good by useful works, giving, at the same time, employment to the labouring classes in districts where distress might prevail. The noble Lord then moved, that his Majesty be enabled to direct Exchequer Bills, to an amount not exceeding 1,000,000 l. to be issued to Commissioners in Great Britain, to be by them advanced, under certain regulations and restrictions, for the completion of works of a public nature, or for the encouragement of the fisheries, or for the employment of the poor in the parishes in Great Britain, on due security being given for the repayment of the sums so advanced, within a time to be limited.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, on a former occasion, when a grant of Exchequer Bills
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for a similar purpose to the present had been made, the money, when repaid, was carried to the general service of the country, instead of being applied to take up the securities on which the money had been raised. This was, in his opinion, improper; and the money, as repaid, should be employed in buying up Exchequer Bills.
Mr. George Robinsonregretted to learn, that the noble Lord found the country to be not in a satisfactory condition. He would not object to the grant, for he thought it would do neither harm nor good.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the present proposition had the recommendation of giving relief, without interfering, in any degree, with the administration of the Poor-laws.
Mr. Pagetsaid, the great cause of the existing evils was, the sudden abstraction of capital from the hands of the middling classes, caused by what was called Peel's Bill; and he thought, that neither the present measure nor any measure would do good, unless it was one which had the effect of increasing the capital which employed the labourers.
Vote agreed to.

SELECT VESTRIES (ENGLAND) BILL.
Mr. Hobhousemoved for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of Vestries in England.
Sir Thomas Fremantleregretted that he must oppose the Motion of the hon. member for Westminster, which was one of considerable interest, but likely to create much excitement, as did a former bill of this kind. It would be impossible that a measure introduced so late in the Session, could go through the House; and, during the recess, much agitation might prevail. He would, therefore, suggest the propriety of withdrawing the measure for the present.
Mr. Spring Ricethought the objection well founded; and recommended the hon. Member not to introduce his Bill in so small a House, and at so late a period of the Session.
Mr. Ridley Colborneagreed with the former hon. Gentleman, that there was reason to apprehend great excitement from the introduction of this measure, when it would be impossible to bring it to an issue. He hoped the Motion would not be persisted in.
Mr. Hobhousewas induced to bring forward this Bill, from the suggestions of those

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who represented 700,000 people of the Metropolis, at the earliest opportunity. There did not appear any objection to the principle of the Bill; the objections were confined to the details. He trusted, therefore, that hon. Gentlemen would allow the Bill to be printed.
Mr. Warburtonobserved, the hon. Gentleman had given notice to bring in his Bill to-day, having waited to see what took place in the Committee up-stairs.
Sir Thomas Fremantlesaid, if the hon. Gentleman would fix to-morrow, he would not oppose the Motion.
Motion postponed'

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time; the Church Building Acts Amendment, &c. The Lord Steward's Oaths Abolition. Committed; the Master of the Mint's Salary.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of RICHMOND, from James Huntler, for alterations in the Tithes Composition Bill,

BEER BILL.
The Bishop of Bath and Wellspresented Petitions from Yeovil, and Wells and Stockport, praying for the repeal or alteration of the Beer Bill. In case it should not be thought proper to repeal the Bill, the right reverend Prelate suggested that the beer houses should be placed under certain regulations. He suggested that it should not be allowed to consume beer on the premises in the new beer houses, and that they should be placed under the superintendence of the Magistrates and Police. He supposed that there would be no serious objection to preventing the beer being consumed on the premises, as the noble and learned Lord had not proposed originally that the consumption on the premises should be allowed.
The Lord Chancellorwould repeat what he had before stated, which was, that he had not originally proposed in his Bill to allow the consumption of the beer on the premises; but that he had given up his own opinion to that of the Committee, which had taken evidence on the point. He did not agree with the right reverend Prelate, that there would be no objection to put an end to the consumption of beer on the premises; on the contrary, he thought that this would be the principal point of difference. The Bill, however, as it at present stood, had not had a fair trial, and this being the case, it certainly was not fitting that it should be repealed or altered

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in its principle for the present. But he had the satisfaction to inform their Lordships, that the noble Secretary of State for the Home Department had prepared a Bill on the subject to add some regulations, which, it was to be hoped, would remove all reasonable objections.
Lord Teynhamcordially agreed with the noble Baron on the Woolsack, that permission to drink beer on the premises of the seller, was the very best part of the Bill, and if that clause was repealed, all the benefit and advantages of the measure to the labouring classes would be lost. There were, doubtless, imperfections in the Bill, and some evils arose from its operation; but the great advantage was, the certainty of the abolition of the injurious imposts on malt and hops, which it would effect at no distant day. He should decidedly oppose the repeal of the clause allowing beer to be drunk on the premises.
Lord Bexleywas of opinion, that the Bill had been of the greatest advantage to the public, for the public had had the whole benefit of the reduction of the duty, which was not the case with respect to the repeal of the duty on leather. The amount of tax taken off was about 3,000,000 l.; but owing to the reduction in the price of beer, the saving to the public was at least 5,000,000 l. per annum. With respect to the consuming the beer on the premises, it had been the practice in Rome, previous to the time of Pius the 7th to consume the wines sold in the wine houses on the premises: but that Pope put an end to the practice, on account of some irregularities with which he conceived it to be attended; and by that act he made himself exceedingly unpopular. His successor altered the plan, and allowed the wine to be consumed on the premises; but in order to prevent any bad consequences from this indulgence, he added, by way of regulation, that, there should be no seats on the premises; and consequently the possessors of these wine shops were obliged to remove all their seats, so that the guests who chose to drink their wine there, were forced to drink it, standing. The result was, that the Pope was almost as unpopular on this account, as his predecessor Pope Pius had been.
The Petition laid on the Table.