Sitting of 21 February 1831

Preamble
MINUTES.) New Members sworn. Hon. J. S. WORTLEY, for Bossiney; and Sir W. HORNE, for Bletchingley.
A new Writ was ordered for Wigan, in the room of J. A. HODSON, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
The Committee appointed to inquire into the Election for the Town of Wexford reported, that WM. WIGRAM, esqwas not duly elected, and that Sir E. C. DERINO ought to have been returned. Clerk of the Crown ordered to amend the Return.
Bills. The Colonial Trade Bill was read a second time. Heritable Infeofments Bill was read a second time. The Exchequer Bills Bill was read a second time. A Bill to amend the 6th of his late Majesty (the Bankrupt Acts) brought in and read a first time. The Select Vestries Bill was read a second time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, the particulars of all applications made to his Majesty's Commissioners, appointed by virtue of the Act 58 Geo. 3rd, c. 45. for building, and promoting the building, of additional Churches in populous parishes; for their assent to the building and endowing of Churches or Chapels, under the 3rd section of the Act of 7 and 8 Geo. 4th, c. 72, specifying those which have been complied with, and the conditions of compliance, and those which have been refused, with the grounds of refusal:—On the Motion of Mr. LAMB, the quantity of Sheep's and Lamb's Wool imported into Great Britain between 5th January, 1830, and 5lb January, 1831, specifying the Countries from which it came, the quantity that has paid a Duty of 1d. per pound, and the quantity that has paid a Duty of ½d. per pound; also, the quantity of foreign Wool which has been re-exported during the came period, and the Countries to which it has been sent, and the quantity remaining Warehoused under Bond on 1st January last; also, the quantity of British Sheep's and Lamb's Wool, exported from Great Britain between 5th January, 1S30, and 5th January, 1831, specifying the countries to which it has been sent; also, statement of the number of Houses in each City, Borough, and Town, in England and Wales, sending Members to Parliament, and the greatest number of Electors polled at any Election within the same, at any period during the last thirty years, so far as the same can be ascertained from the returning officers.
Petitions presented. Against the Tythe System, by Sir W. FOULKES, from Walsoken, and other places in Norfolk: —By Lord EBRINGTON, from the Agriculturists of South Moulton, and the Parish of Bradford, Devon. By the same noble Lord, from Navan, for the Repeal of the Vestries (Ireland) Act; from the Candle Makers of Plymouth, for a continuation of the License to make Candles; from Collumpton, complaining of the low rate of Wages in the Cloth Manufacture, and asking Relief. By Mr. HART DAVIS, from Bristol, against the alteration in the Timber Duties; and from the Ship-owners of the same place, for a Reduction of the Duties on West-India produce. By Mr. B. HOY, from the Isle of Wight, against the proposed Tax on Steam Vessels. For a General Fast, by Lord BERNARD, from Iver:—By Mr. A. DUNCOMBE, from East Retford. By Mr. SHAW, from the Bankers and Merchants of Dublin, praying that, whatever measure might be adopted for the Abolition of Negro Slavery, due regard might be had to existing interests; from the Calico Weavers of Dublin, praying for a Revision of the Duty on Cotton; from an individual named Hamilton, against the practice of Duelling; and from the Corporation of Smiths of the City of Dublin, praying that a Session of Parliament might be held in that City every third year. For the Abolition of Slavery, by Mr. JOHN WOOD, from Clithero, and various classes of Dissenters at Wigan. By

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Mr. S. RICE, from Limerick, against the Drawback on Soap; and from Carrobrow, against further Grants to the Kildare-street Society. For a Reform in Parliament, by Mr. BENETT, from Devizes:—By Mr. HODGES, from Bromley, Whitstable, and the Lathe of Aylesford, Kent; and from Leeds, Kent, praying for a Repeal of the Union with Ireland.

The hon. Member said, that he concurred in the prayer of all these Petitions, with the exception of that which called for a Repeal of the Union.
By Mr. FYSCHE PALMER, from Reading, for Reform; and from the same persons, against the House and Window Tax.

BANKRUPT LAWS.
The Sheriffs of Londonpresented the Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons of the City of London, in Common Council assembled, praying for an amendment of the Bankrupt Laws.
Mr. Alderman Woodsupported the petition, and represented, that the abuses of the present system called loudly for a remedy. The manner in which accounts were kept tended to gross frauds. Seventy Commissioners made a bad Court, and there was not a merchant or trader in the city of London who would not rejoice to see it abolished. Among the Bankruptcy Judges there should be at least one mercantile man; for the decision of the questions which came before them rather required a knowledge of business and accounts than of law. He hoped to see a speedy reform.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanalso supported the petition, and condemned the expense and abuses of the present state of the law. It was not the Corporation of London alone who complained of the evil, but the whole country felt the necessity of a change. The number of sinecure offices, now connected with the Court, yielded at least 6,000 l. a year, and it ought to be reformed, if it were only to get rid of them.
Mr. J. Smithwas glad that the matter had been taken up in the way it now was, and hoped, that before the end of the Session there would be an alteration of the law. The number of Commissioners ought to be reduced, and the Court ought to sit continually.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, that nothing could be worse than the present system. Of twenty-three lawyers who had given their opinions before the Committee of which his hon. friend opposite had been Chairman, and before the Commissioners of inquiry, one only had been in favour of the existing system. The primary tribunal
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and the court of appeal were equally unsatisfactory. They provided the maximum of expense and delay, and the minimum of justice.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that only one system could be worse than the present Bankrupt-laws in this country, and that was the system which prevailed in Ireland. He did not, however, agree in the opinion, that the Judges of the Bankrupt Court should be merchants; no man could make a good Judge who was not acquainted with law.
Petition laid on the Table.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonpresented a Petition to the same effect from (he Bankers, Merchants, and Traders of the City of London. The Lord Chancellor was about to bring in a bill on this subject, for which he felt bound, on behalf of these petitioners, sincerely to thank that noble and learned Lord. He understood that the principle of that measure was to be, that there should be one Court, sitting from day to day, for the despatch of business. Whether there ought to be one Judge, or three, or five, he did not now offer an opinion, but he had no doubt the alteration which was to be made would be for the butter. The present expense of the Bankrupt Court exceeded the expense of cither the Court of King's Bench or the Common Pleas, and nobody could for one moment think of depreciating the utility of these Courts, by comparing the business they transacted to the business of the Bankruptcy Commissioners.
Petition to lie on the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM — SIT TINGS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. J. Woodsaid, he had three very important Petitions to present, praying for Parliamentary Reform. The first was from Downton, in Wiltshire, and the petitioners stated that the whole of the electors of that borough consisted only of six individuals, who were tenants of one noble Lord, and that, on the day of election, the practice was, for his Lordship's agent to go round with a bag of parchments, which were distributed among the parties to ratify their qualification. Having served this purpose, the parchments were re-deposited in the bag, and carried away by the agent. This constituted the whole of the proceedings. The next Petition was from the inhabitants of Stockport, in

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Cheshire, and they stated, that within a distance of twenty-five miles around them, there was a population consisting of no less than 900,000 souls, all of whom were without Representatives. The third Petition was from Rochdale, and was very numerously signed. The individuals from whom this petition came expressed an opinion, in which he entirely concurred— namely, that whatever measure of Reform might be brought forward by his Majesty's Government, it must be ineffectual and unsatisfactory, unless it embraced Vote by Ballot.
An hon. Member said, that, at a public meeting, recently held in Berkshire, the Earl of Radnor had expressed himself most anxious that his patronage should be taken away from the borough of Downton.
Mr. J. Woodsaid, he entertained the highest respect for the Earl of Radnor, and he was far, very far, from imputing any blame to that estimable nobleman. The system was what he blamed, and not the individual.
On the Motion that the Petitions be printed,
Mr. O'Connellcomplained of the extremely late hours to which the sittings of the House were prolonged. It was utterly impossible, with such a practice, that the public business could be properly gone through; and, therefore, it was his intention to move, to-night, that the House should adjourn at half-past eleven unless an understanding were expressly come to, that they should rise at twelve, at the latest.
Mr. H. Gurneywas of opinion, that no business could be gone through if hon. Members persisted in the practice of making speeches, upon mere incidental questions, upon the presentation of petitions. The modern practice of doing that was the cause why the House was able to transact so little real business.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanthought, that nothing interfered so much with the public time as the practice of making long speeches on the presentation of petitions.
Mr. O'Connellrepeated what he had already stated, and observed at the same time, that, in future, hon. Members would be deterred from filling the Chair, if they were detained in it to endure a fatigue which must wear out the most robust constitution.
Sir M. W. Ridleysaid, the House possessed sufficient power to prove to the
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hon. member for Waterford that it disregarded his taunts and threats of interruption. If the hon. Member persisted in the course he proposed, he (Sir M. W. Ridley) hoped to see him speedily defeated by a Resolution of the House.
Mr. Humefelt quite surprised at the tone in which the hon. Baronet spoke, as there was nothing whatever to call for it in what had been said by the hon. member for Waterford. His own opinion was, that no public business could possibly be well done after twelve o'clock, and, therefore, if an adjournment was moved, he should certainly support the proposition.
Mr. W. Duncombemust protest against the manner in which this discussion was provoked by the hon. member for Waterford, at an hour appointed for the reception of petitions. If the hon. Member desired to put the question to the test, his proper course was, to bring it before the House in a regular manner.
Mr. Huntsaid, he had no idea that he, and others who agreed with the hon. member for Waterford upon this subject, should be thus lectured with regard to it. He had no idea that Standing Orders should be kept up if they were not observed. If that were not done, it would be better to get rid of them altogether. The complaint about long speeches came with a very bad grace from the hon. Alderman. He (Mr. Hunt) was present the other night when the hon. Alderman made a long speech which drove nearly all the Members out of the House. He certainly would support the motion for an adjournment at twelve o'clock.
Mr. Warburtonsuggested, that the further discussion of this question should be postponed.
Petitions to be printed.

On the Motion of Lord Althorp, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,

APOLOGY FOR THE USE OF AN IMPROPER TERM.
Sir J. Grahamsaid: although, Sir, there is this pressure of public business, I feel myself unwillingly obliged to intrude upon you a subject of a private nature; and perhaps the House, when they come to learn the reason of my doing so, will be inclined to pardon me. I am the more reluctant to do so, as the subject has reference to a preceding debate. It will be in the recollection of hon. Members, that on a former evening, in the heat of

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an extempore address to the House, I used the word "demagogue." That word has given offence to an hon. Member, and he has sent to ask me whether that word was meant to apply to him. Consistently with truth I am able to state, that at the moment when I used that expression, I did not use it with reference to the hon. member for Clare, he being the individual who has asked me to state whether the expression was meant to apply to him. At the moment I used the expression, he was sitting behind me, I was not aware that he was in the House at the time, and I can conscientiously state, that I did not know he was present, and did not intend the word to apply to him. So far, Sir, I have stated in compliance with the wish of a noble friend. I will now, on my own part, say a few words with reference to another hon. Member; I did use the expression complained of with reference to another hon. Member, whom I now see present, and I now wish to say, that when I recollect he was not then present— when I recollect the declaration he once made —a declaration that ought to make him more cautious in his language towards others, and to make others more cautious in their language towards him, and more especially when I recollect the situation in which that hon. Member now stands with regard to the Government, I frankly and fairly confess, that I am sorry I used that expression.
Mr. H. Davisreminded the House that immediately after the expression had been used, the right hon. Baronet declared that he had used it in the heat of debate, and not with reference to the hon. member for Clare, who then complained of it.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, that he was most unexpectedly and unnecessarily adverted to by the right hon. Baronet. He did not think that what the right hon. Baronet had said respecting him ought to have been said under the semblance and guise of an apology to another. He utterly denied that he had ever made use of any language, either there or elsewhere, except such as a Christian might have uttered, or a man might be prepared to vindicate, in the sincerity of truth. The right hon. Baronet had alluded to the situation in which he (Mr. O'Connell) stood in reference to the Government. He would take good care, however, to be early in his attendance in this House, with a view of having that situation
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clearly understood, for a great deal of misconception prevailed with regard to it. He thought it most extraordinary that the right hon. Baronet, when giving an explanation to an hon. Member of that House, should allude to him in so uncalled for a manner.
Here the matter closed.

COTTON TRADE.
Lord Althorpsaid, he took that opportunity of making a few observations which were probably expected from him. He wished to state the arrangement which he had now made with regard to the Cotton Trade. On a former night he had been asked a question on this subject, and had declined to answer the question until he had seen the deputation from Manchester. That deputation had been in town—he had had a communication from the members of it, and he believed he had settled the matter to their satisfaction. The mode in which he now proposed to regulate the trade was, to take off immediately the tax on Printed Cottons, and to convert the ad valorem duty of six per cent to five-eighths of a penny on cotton now imported, and not to allow the drawback. That would not have the effect of making any alteration with regard to East-India cottons. He ought to add, that he intended to allow the drawback on exportation for the space of three months.

WEST INDIES.
The Marquis of Chandossaid, he found that, after repeated intimations had been given that relief should be afforded to the suffering interests of the West Indies, no relief was now to be afforded them. The distress in the West Indies was exceedingly great, and it arose principally from the tax on sugar—a tax which, he reminded the Government, was a war tax, and ought to have been abolished at the end of the war, but which had still been continued, and was not now proposed to be taken off. He asked his Majesty's Ministers, in the arrangement they were about to make, that they would consider seriously the situation of the West-India colonies; and one of the principal objects of his Motion was, to press that subject on their notice. Their financial plan was not now arranged—their Budget was not finally made up—and he called upon the right hon. member for Dover to support, on this occasion, the opinions he had held

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before he became a member of the Government. He would refer to the statement made last year by the right hon. Member, on a debate on this subject. The right hon. Member then stated, that he was most anxious to protect the West-India interest. That protection, however, had not been afforded, and was not now even promised. He called on the House to consider what must be the feelings of men to whom such protection had been promised, but who were not happy enough to obtain its advantages. The measure which had been introduced for their benefit had been subsequently withdrawn. He repeated, that the financial arrangements were incomplete, and the Budget not fully settled. He, called, therefore, on the Government to go along with him; and especially he called on the right hon. the President of the Board of Control, to support him in the application he now made, on behalf of the West-India colonies, to the serious attention of the Government. That right hon. Member had recorded his opinion in favour of the West Indies, and could not now retract it. The right hon. Gentleman had stated, very truly, that he saw a strong necessity for interfering on behalf of the colonies, and he had advised that practical relief should be afforded to them. The right hon. Gentleman had voted in a division of 144 on a Motion which he (the Marquis of Chandos) had the honour of submitting to the House. He trusted that something beneficial for the West-India proprietor would be brought forward. The financial statement of the noble Lord had indeed been materially changed, but, as the Government appeared to be at sea with respect to finance, he hoped that some-plan which would afford relief to the West-India interest would be now submitted. He was exceedingly desirous that relief should be extended to those who were suffering. He not only asked relief for the distresses of the West-India planters, but also for the people of England. With respect to the colonies, he did not agree with those hon. Members who wanted to dissolve the union between them and this country. If any such proposition were submitted to this House, he should be one of the last men to give it his support. He knew the value of the colonies too well ever to desire such a thing: and he hoped the House would attend to their interests, for their interests were also the interests of this country.
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It was to the naval power of the country that we were indebted for the colonies; and, as he had before said, he hoped they would be scrupulously preserved. He would implore his Majesty's Ministers not to disregard the petitions which were presented to that House in favour of the West-India proprietor, nor disregard the petitions which came from all parts of the empire on the subject of slavery. That was a question which merited their attention, and he hoped to sec it speedily settled. He stood up in that House to advocate the cause of the West-India planter, as a free and independent Member; and he begged to call for the support of Ministers, on the score of principle, of consistency, and of justice, to the resolution which he would now read. The noble Lord then concluded with moving the following resolution as an amendment to Lord Althorp's motion. "That the distressed condition of the West-India planters demands the serious and immediate consideration of this House, with a view to their relief."
Mr. Keith Douglasseconded the Motion. He expressed his regret at the course which his Majesty's Ministers had thought proper to pursue, and his disappointment at hearing the financial arrangements of the Government. He felt convinced, when he heard them, that no relief was intended for our long-suffering colonies though that had been promised over and over again. Now, however, it was found out, that legislation could give no relief, but that was a position which could not be maintained. He knew that the Board of Trade had investigated the subject with the greatest care, but he was satisfied that the papers for which he had moved and which were then on the tables of the House would warrant a different conclusion from that come to by the right hon. Gentlemen. Those papers showed, at least, that unless some relief was speedily given to the colonies, they must be completely ruined, and his noble friend and himself pressed that consideration on the House, because they were satisfied that it was in the power of the House to afford relief. He had on a former occasion expressed his disapprobation of some of the new taxes proposed, and he wished then to add, that the alteration of the tax on timber would ruin our North American colonies, and injure our shipping interest, without conferring any correspondent ad-

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vantage on the country. Those taxes had excited so much disapprobation that the noble Lord would necessarily be obliged to remodel his Budget, and in doing that he hoped still, that the West-India interests might be taken into consideration. The difficulties of the West-India planters were caused by legislation and they looked to legislation, to repair the evils it had inflicted. The Legislature had always restricted the Colonial trade to British shipping and the Mother country. All the produce of those colonies was required to be sent to England in British ships, and all their supplies were imported only from Britain; out of that legislation onerous engagements had arisen, trade was made costly, the restrictions were a burthen on all the parties and their profits were sacrificed to the public benefit. On that ground, the West Indians called for relief and they saw that it might be granted to them by lowering or removing the war-duty on sugar. The legislature too had thought proper to prohibit the removal of slaves from one colony to the other, and the consequence was, that more were found in one place than were wanted, while in another island, there was a want of hands. In the island of Cuba and at the Brazils, in consequence of the continued importation of Slaves, sugar could be grown at a much lower rate than in our colonies. In them a slave cost 100 l. while one could be imported at an expense of 40 l. The imported slaves were in general unencumbered effective labourers, while in our colonies, where they were bred a great part of the population was ineffective. Thus the English planter had only thirty-four effective labourers out of 100 slaves, while the Brazilian planter had fifty five. Our colonies producing more sugars than could supply our own markets, the surplus was sent to the continent, where it met this cheap-grown sugar of Cuba, and the Brazils, and would sell for no more than it. The price of Sugar had been beat down from 64 s. per cwt. to 24 s. giving, after deducting the charge for conveyance to Europe, 15 s. 6d. to cover the expense of cultivation, which it had been proved over and over again was not sufficient. The country was hardly consistent in its wishes to abolish slavery in our colonies while it was anxious to benefit by the low price of slave-grown sugar. It professed great anxiety to abolish slavery, but refused all assistance to those who were engaged in
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the unequal contest of producing sugar without the importation of fresh slaves. If the present system were allowed to continue, the competition between the slave-importing countries and our colonies must end in the ruin of the hitter. When that was the case those people who had been so anxious to abolish slavery, would find that they must draw all their supplies from countries that still carried on the Slave-trade, and over which they had not the smallest control. By not assisting the English planter, then, they would perpetuate that crime which the public voice had loudly condemned, and which the country had been at great expense to put down. He hoped, therefore, that his Majesty's Government would reconsider the subject, and for the interests of humanity, in compliance with the public voice, and in contemplation of the colonial and shipping interests of the country, give relief and encouragement to the planters of our own colonies, where slavery was in the progress of melioration, and where the slave-trade had been happily extinguished.
Mr. Poulett Thomsonexpressed his surprise, that the noble Lord should have introduced a debate upon the sugar-duties, and on the colonies, upon a proposition for the House to go into a Committee of Supply—a motion which, if acceded to, would have the effect of retarding the Supply. There was no disposition on the part of Government to disregard the interests of the West-India planters—no disposition to prevent an inquiry into the subject, and his hon. friend had only done justice to the Board to which he belonged, when he admitted, that it had carefully investigated the subject. What he complained of was, that the noble Lord had not brought forward his Motion in a more regular way, instead of taking the present opportunity of submitting it to the House on the present occasion, when a motion was before the House to go into a Committee of Supply. He (Mr. P. Thomson) would not follow his hon. friend who had seconded the Amendment, through all his statements; but he should be doing himself injustice if he did not enter somewhat at large into the subject, with a view of showing that the mode pursued by Government was a true and sound course. If the Government did not consent to a reduction of duty upon West-India produce, it was because they considered the revenue could not spare it; and because neither

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of the proposals submitted to the Government by the West-India planters was calculated to attain the object in view, or was consistent with the public welfare. The noble Lord had but done him justice in stating what he had done. He would accept with pleasure the words which had been quoted. He was anxious and desirous that the West-India interest should be protected. He would go farther, and say, that he was not only desirous of seeing the West-India proprietor protected, but that all his Majesty's subjects, whether in this country or the colonies, should be protected and assisted. The only difference between the noble Lord and" him was, that he would never consent to sacrifice the interests of one party to those of another, or seek to promote the prosperity of particular branches of our trade at the expense of the general prosperity. The noble Lord must have made a slight mistake when he supposed that he had voted in support of the noble Lord's motion on the occasion alluded to. Whoever voted with the noble Lord on that occasion, he certainly was not one, though he had divided in favour of the motion of his right hon. friend (Mr. C. Grant). He should have no objection to see the duty taken off sugar, provided it could be done without injury to the revenue; but there were other taxes which pressed more heavily upon the community, and these he would rather sec removed. With respect to the proposed financial measures, it was impossible, in the state of the revenue, to reduce the duty on sugar. His noble friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had, in his financial statement, calculated the result of his propositions, leaving only a very small surplus. He would put it to the noble Lord—he would put it to the people of England—whether more had not been done for the general benefit by the Government, in removing the tax on seaborne coal, and the tax on candles, than would be effected by the repeal of the duty on sugar? He differed from the noble Lord with respect to the ground upon which the duty on sugar ought to be removed. He (Mr. P. Thomson) had never advocated the principle of the reduction of that duty on the ground of its being beneficial to the manufacturer or grower, but because it pressed heavily on the consumer. He would maintain, that if the duties were taken off sugar, it would not benefit the West-India proprietors, as it would not
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give them a monopoly, and until they had a monopoly, no reduction could be of any benefit to them. There was one-fourth more sugar exported from the West-Indies than was wanted in this country; and as long as that was the case, the price of sugar here would be regulated by the price which could be obtained for the surplus abroad. In addition to the nominal but not real monopoly of our market, which, in fact, they already enjoyed, they must get, therefore, a monopoly of the continental markets, or a power of keeping the cheap sugars of Cuba or the Brazils out of them, before any reduction of duty could afford them a great relief. He believed that lowering the duty would tend, in a great measure, to stimulate the growth of the cheap sugars, at least till the country could consume all the surplus of the West Indies. He was quite ready to admit, therefore, that a reduction of duty would benefit the consumer, but he denied, that it would confer any immediate benefit on the planter. Looking, indeed, at the interest of the consumer, then he was still prepared to recommend a reduction of the duty on sugar whenever that could be effected; but he did not think, that the case was so urgent that the revenue ought to be sacrificed, and the financial resources of the country exposed to hazard, by complying with the wishes of the West-India planters. His hon. friend, in the statement which was laid before the Board of Trade, urged the propriety of the Government giving a bounty of 5s. 3d. per cwt. on all sugar imported into this country from the West Indies. The planters urged this on the ground of the restrictions which the mother-country imposed on the trade of the colonies. He was happy to see, indeed, that the West-India interest had not brought forward that claim on that occasion: they had not submitted it to Parliament, and it was no part of the proposition then before the House. Still he might be allowed to state, that if conceded, it would have amounted to the moderate sum of 1,200,000 l. taken from the pockets of the people, and tranferred to those of the West-India planters. His hon. friend seemed to think it an evil and a hardship, that the colonists were obliged to send all their produce to England in British ships; but the fact was, that the freight of them was so much cheaper than any other, that from 30 to 40,000 tons of Brazilian produce was annually sent to

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Europe by our shipping. His hon. friend seemed also to think, that the West-Indians sustained a great loss by being obliged to take all their manufactures from this country: he calculated, in fact, that our manufactures were 15 per cent clearer than others, and that, by this regulation, the West Indies were taxed to the amount of 370,000 l. for the benefit of the English manufacturer. But was it not a notorious fact, that the greater part of the manufactured articles required in the West Indies could be obtained much cheaper from Britain than from any other part of the world. Those very articles were taken from this country to the colonies of other countries, to which our fiscal regulations did not extend. Another grievance the planters complained of was, that they were obliged to draw their supplies of lumber from our North American colonies; that he admitted was an evil, and the Bill before the House, for regulating the intercourse between the colonies, would remedy it in part, though not to the extent of giving the whole supply of our colonies into the hands of the United States, which he thought would neither be consistent with political wisdom nor advantageous to the West-India islands. Another point was, the admission of our refined sugar into foreign countries, which our Government could not compel, and he knew no means by which this could be effected, except by the planters refining it themselves, and sending it as cheap to Europe as the sugar of the Brazils. It had been said, too, that the West Indies might be relieved by the admission of rum at a lower rate of duty; but if the Government were to attempt that, it would be opposed by all the country gentlemen of the empire. Scotland and Ireland would be up in arms, and he could conceive no way by which the opposition could be overcome, unless the eloquent advocates of the West-India planters could persuade the distillers, and farmers, and maltsters, and landowners of England, that their interests would not be injured by admitting rum at a lower rate of duty than at present. The great source, undoubtedly, of the ruin of our colonies was the continuation of the slave-trade by foreign countries. To that point, accordingly, the Government had directed its most anxious attention, being satisfied that the pecuniary interests of the West Indies, as well as the interests of humanity, required
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that this abominable traffic should be put down. The Government had, in fact, been unceasing in its exertions to attain that object, and till that was attained, he saw no hope of effectual relief to the West-India planter. He regretted very much that his hon. friend should have referred to the Budget with feelings of asperity, and should have roused the hostility of other interests by the manner in which his hon. friend had preferred the claims of the West-Indians to the general interests of the community. It was such unwise demands which created throughout the community, a feeling of animosity to our West-Indian fellow-subjects, and which caused that general cry to which his hon. friend had referred as pervading the country at the period of the general election; he was sorry his hon. friend had thought it necessary to say any thing on that point, for he was far from having instigated or joined in that cry, though he must acknowledge that he was disposed to sympathise with those who were its objects; and he would beg leave to remind the hon. Member, that it was in the power of the people of England to come to the bar of that House, and to ask how long the Resolutions of the House of Commons of 1822 were to remain a dead letter on the Statute-book; and how long those recommendations, which emanated from the Government, were to be disregarded, and its advice unheeded? He bitterly regretted that any occasion had offered for the present discussion to spring up; and he denied that the mode of relief suggested would be of any benefit to the West-India interests. He protested against the inference which the noble Lord had drawn from the conduct of the Government with regard to the present Motion. He felt disposed to grant every relief possible to the West-India interests, and he hoped the noble Lord would believe that such was his desire; and, if he was convinced of that, he trusted that the noble Lord would think that the subject had much better be left in the hands of Government, or else under the consideration of the House of Commons, than that he should stop the Supplies by passing to a division on a motion of this nature.
Mr. Hart Davisobserved, that the interests of the West Indies were of the highest importance to this country, for the ships and commerce of Great Britain were the natural effects of her colonies, and had

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been fostered, and almost created, by them. He was disposed to believe, that the reduction of the duties on sugar and rum would not have the results that were anticipated by the West-India proprietors, but that the amount taken off, instead of going wholly into their pockets, would go part to the consumers, and part only to them. He thought, however, the planters had great claims on the consideration of his Majesty's Ministers, but, at the same time, these claims were a subject of general consideration, which ought to be deferred, and the House ought to be satisfied that the future judgment of the Ministers would be exercised as to the relief which it would be most proper to afford. He begged, before he sat down, to call the attention of the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to a. subject which was of very great importance to those interested in it— namely, the growth of tobacco in Ireland. The noble Lord must be aware of the intentions of Government on this subject, and he would, therefore, be able to afford him the necessary information. He wished to know, whether it was the noble Lord's intention to bring forward his bill for prohibiting the cultivation of tobacco in Ireland? It was of importance that the growers there should be aware of the intentions of Government to let the cultivation of that plant go on there: and it was also of importance to those concerned in the importation of foreign tobacco to know whether they would have to contend with the growers of Irish tobacco as well as with the smuggler, particularly as they had been disappointed in their expectations of a reduction in the duty. He wished also to ask another question of the noble Lord; and that was, whether it was intended by Government to persist in levying the increased duty on Canada timber, or whether it was the intention to modify the original proposition, as brought forward by the noble Lord,—or, lastly, whether, as was very generally wished, the noble Lord would abandon his intention of altering the duty on Canadian timber altogether? With regard to the Motion now before the House, he was of opinion that the distress among the West-India planters was at present at such a height, that in another year the remedy would come too late.
Mr. Robinsonhoped that the noble Lord would not hastily answer the question of the hon. member for Bristol, with regard to the duties on timber, because, as the
794
noble Lord well knew, the persons who were most interested in that part of the noble Lord's proposition were about to submit certain considerations to the Government. As to the subject immediately under discussion, the noble Lord who had brought it forward had established that great distress existed in our West-Indian colonies; and, indeed, that had not been denied by the Government. He strongly objected to a topic so irritating as that of slavery being mixed up with a question purely commercial, like the present. The chief ground of complaint of the West-Indian proprietors was, as it appeared to him, that there had been an infraction on the part of the executive Government, of a treaty that had been entered into between the Government and the West-Indian proprietors. The terms of that agreement were, that the duties imposed were to be considered as a war-tax, and that they should not be continued in time of peace. Nevertheless, the duties had not been altered; and this he considered a just and strong ground of complaint. He admitted that the price of sugar in our market was regulated by the price abroad, but he contended, that the price there would be raised by such a decrease of duty as would extend the consumption of this country. With respect to what the right hon. Member had said of British vessels bringing the produce of the Brazils to Europe, that was not because the freight by them was less than that by other vessels, but be-cause they carried out cargoes there, and must of necessity have some to bring back. He did not mean to accuse the Government of an anti-colonial feeling; but he was sure that some of the measures which the Government had lately proposed would be considered in the colonies as indicative of such a feeling. However, he had risen chiefly for the purpose of begging the noble Lord not to answer hastily the question which had been put to him with respect to the timber duties, because he was sure that the representations which would be made to the Government on that subject would not be without effect.
Lord Althorpsaid, he was perfectly ready to admit that the distress which existed in the West-India interest demanded serious attention, and he should not have the slightest objection to agree to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the whole case. He objected to the Motion now before the House, be-

795
cause, if met as such a motion ought to be met, it would be impossible that they could go into a Committee of Supply. He was bound to say, that neither the noble Lord nor the seconder of the Motion had in the least degree exaggerated the distress complained of; and he begged to assure the House, that there was no man more ready than he was, to alleviate that distress, if he saw the means of doing so. But with all the consideration which he had been able to give to the subject, and after the most attentive examination of all the circumstances connected with it by the Board of Trade, he must say, that none of the propositions which had been brought forward as remedies, had appeared to the Government capable of being adopted, consistently with the general interests of the country. He had been misunderstood with regard to what he had said on a former occasion, with respect to the sugar duties. He had said, that he did not think that the reduction of the duty on sugar would confer any great benefit on the planter, and he still adhered to that opinion. It was not necessary for him on that occasion to enter into his reasons for that opinion, especially since his right hon. friend near him had already stated them to the House. Allow him, however, to say, that, in looking at the general taxation of the country, it did not appear to him that the duty on sugar ought to be the first tax to be taken off. It had generally been said in that House to any Gentleman who proposed that a certain tax should be taken off,—"You must propose a substitute." Yet, Gentlemen had come forward that evening, who, after objecting to the taxes which he proposed to substitute for taxes which he had taken off, gravely asked him to take off another tax, namely, the sugar duty. Now, surely this was not reasonable. He would put it to every hon. Gentleman who heard him,—he would appeal even to the West-Indian proprietors themselves,—whether it was not much more to the advantage of the country that the duty should be taken off coals and candles than off sugar. Well, then, after taking off those duties— after having proposed taxes in lieu of them, and after the latter had been objected to, could any thing be more unreasonable than to ask him to add to his remissions the remission of the duty on sugar? As to the question which had been put to him with regard to the timber duties,—this, he admitted, was not the proper time for dis-
796
cussing his propositions with regard to them. As, however, when that subject came under discussion, he should be prepared to show, that his proposition would not be injurious to Canada, he had no hesitation in stating now, in answer to the hon. member for Bristol, that it was not his intention to make the slightest alteration in the proposed timber duties. Reverting to the Motion of the noble Lord, he had only to observe, that although he felt it necessary to resist that Motion, yet, if the noble Lord thought, that in a Committee any means of reconciling the conflicting interests could be devised, he certainly should not object to the appointment of such a Committee. He was quite sure, that to reduce the duty on rum would militate against many important interests of this country; and he was convinced, that if he had proposed such a measure to the House, he should have proposed it in vain. He would not detain the House further, but before he sat down he would answer a question which had been put to him by an hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. H. Davis), respecting the prohibition of the growth of tobacco in Ireland. He knew that measure to be greatly objected to in Ireland, as particularly prejudicial to some interests in that country. But he meant to accompany the prohibition with a reduction of the duty on imported tobacco —a measure, by which he believed that Ireland would be more generally benefited, than by the permission to grow tobacco. However, as he had not been able to carry into effect his intention to reduce the duty, he felt also bound to abandon the prohibition.
Mr. Humeconcurred entirely with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp) in thinking that an inquiry ought to be instituted into the condition of those colonies, and the most effectual means of remedying the distress under which they laboured. For his part, he believed that they would derive more benefit than injury from the letting into the English market more freely the sugar of the East Indies, because, if that would effect nothing more for them, it would at least remove a great part of the ill-will which was undoubtedly borne towards the West-India interests. He would, however, recommend the noble Lord to withdraw his Resolution.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, that he had so often trespassed on the House upon the subject referred to in the noble Lord's Motion,

797
that he should spare both the House and himself the trouble of going into the discussion on the present occasion. His own opinions were well known to be in accordance with the Resolution proposed by the noble Lord; but he must, however, object to its being now brought forward, on an occasion and in a manner in which it could not fail to obstruct the proceedings of the Committee of Supply. He agreed with his noble friend in saying, that if the noble Marquis should move for a Committee of Inquiry, they (the Ministers) would be glad to adopt any measures calculated to relieve the distresses of the West Indies, without prejudice to other interests.
Mr. Bernalassured his noble friend (Lord Althorp) that it never was his intention to join in any measure of a factious tendency or hostile to the Government. If such had been the object of the noble mover, he (Mr. Bernal) would not have supported him. He would never sacrifice his public duty to his private interest. But the subject of the noble Marquis's Resolution forced itself imperiously upon the consideration of the House and the Government. He did not blame the present Administration more than any former one; but he would say that there had been manifested the most neglectful ignorance of the West-Indian and other colonial interests. The West-Indians had been neglected because they were weak; they had been oppressed on account of their imbecility. He thought that it would have been better, had the right hon. Gentleman near him not alluded to the question of negro slavery. He would ask his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did he think that he (Mr. Bernal) would join in an endeavour to retard the proceedings of the Government? Nor had the noble Marquis asked alone for the reduction of the duty on sugar, but that the whole case of colonial distress should be taken into the consideration of the House. But the purpose of his noble friend would not be attained by a Committee of Inquiry, in which there would be no more than a repetition of stale evidence which had been already laid before the Board of Trade. He was sorry to find that they had come at last to this, that they should hear the right hon. Gentleman, who had so long advocated the principle that reduction of taxation was ancillary to an increase of consumption, and tended ultimately to increase the productiveness
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of the tax, now say that the reduction of a tax upon sugar would not relieve the producer, and would injure the Exchequer. He believed, that the interests of the West Indians and of the inhabitants of the other parts of the empire might be mutually promoted by a modification of the duties on sugar and rum and by allowing the use of sugar in our distilleries. Sugar had become a necessary to the poor man, and his comfort would be much promoted by that reduction of duty which would promote the prosperity of our colonies. He put it to the whole Government to say, why, if they admitted the distress was not exaggerated, they could think it fitting in them to postpone one moment, the consideration and application of a remedy.
Mr. C. Grantsaid, that far from having any intention to impute factious or hostile motives to his hon. friend who last addressed the House, he had meant to say, that he would himself support the motion, except that it would at present interfere with the progress of the Committee of Supply; but it had just now been suggested to him that the resolution would not have that effect. Since he had heard that, he was prepared to agree with the noble Marquis, but for the objectionable manner in which his motion had been introduced. He, however, had heard from the highest authority that the resolution would not interfere with the supplies, and therefore he would vote with the noble Marquis.
Mr. Warburtonrejoiced to have heard the West-India interest advocated upon principles with which the House could agree. He was glad to hear the Member for Rochester not contending for the monopoly of the supply of sugar, but requiring an increase of consumption as the remedy of the producer's distress. He suggested that the resolution should be prepared in a Committee, and that the noble Lord should afterwards introduce a bill founded thereupon.
Sir James Grahamwas sorry, that he could not go the same way that his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Control would go, if the noble marquis should divide the House. He knew that the distress existed as described by the noble Marquis and he regretted it. But the fact had not escaped the observation of the Government. The state of the country and of the colonies had been passed in review before them; and it was impossible that facts, so striking as those

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mentioned by the noble mover of the resolution, and by the hon. Gentleman below the gangway, should have escaped the notice of his Majesty's Ministers. He was ready to admit that the motion of the noble marquis might not obstruct the Committee of Supply; but, as he himself had often made a Motion of the same sort, he knew very well that its success would be understood to convey an indirect, but intelligible censure upon his Majesty's Ministers. It was quite clear to him, that if the Ministers agreed to the motion, before to-morrow morning it would be supposed throughout the country that the House had implied an opinion that the Ministers had not done their duty. But they, having taken into consideration the state of the country, had brought forward those measures which to them seemed most conducive to the general relief. It was not to be forgotten that they had done everything that was possible for the relief of the country, consistently with the maintenance of the civil government and of the national faith. In making reductions, it had appeared to them that the taxes of which the reduction would give the most extensive relief, and in the direction in which it was most required, were those upon coals and candles. Was the public faith of this country to be sustained or not? But how was it to be sustained, if gentlemen opposed the imposition of all new taxes, and came forward night after night to propose the reduction of successive taxes? Gentlemen, therefore, might talk of maintaining the public faith, and of preserving the public honour in spotless purity; but he would ask, how was that to be done if his Majesty's Ministers were called on to take off tax after tax without supplying their places by others more easily borne? The real question at issue was, had the Ministers done rightly or not? In considering what taxes ought to be reduced, they conceived that those on coals and candles were the most fit to be repealed. If the House thought that the Government had been right, it would sustain the Ministry, and reject the Motion of the noble Marquis. He did not deny the existence or the extent of the distress. They admitted both; and they said, that they would take the earliest opportunity to relieve it. He could not say that such an opportunity might occur in the present Session; but if not, he hoped it would take place in the next. His hon. friend
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had said, that if a Committee were proposed he should vote for it. But for what purpose should such a Committee be appointed? The fact of the distress was ascertained already. It was not denied. The Government had fully considered it with a view to devise the means of its alleviation, and they had, consequently, asserted, that they could not relieve it by the removal of taxes consistently with a due regard to the maintenance of the civil government and of the national honour. They would not hold out a delusive hope that they should be able to give relief in the way in which it was desired for the West-India interest, in the present Session. It therefore remained for the House to say whether it would assent to the Resolution of the noble Lord, or support the Ministry as the case at present stood? He did not wish to put the matter to the House otherwise than in a straight-forward, intelligible manner. He was sure he spoke the sense of his colleagues when he said that they did not wish to hold office longer than they possessed the confidence of the House and of the country. It gave him great pain to differ from his right hon. friend, Mr. C. Grant, for no man held him in more respect, but he had a duty to perform which had higher claims on him than personal friendship. He would, therefore, throw himself upon the House. He hoped that, though he might have argued feebly, he had at least expressed his sentiments plainly and fairly.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that, on the present question, he could not take into consideration the probable effect which the decision of the House might have upon the relative situation of political parties. In the present state of the country, he had much higher objects to regard; and he was bound to be governed by them in giving his vote. He concurred with those who lamented the distress of the West Indies, and he considered the interests of the mother country to be involved in those of the colonies. He deeply regretted that any irritating topic had been introduced, and that they could not discuss questions merely fiscal without being threatened with the voice of the people of England. He was astonished that a right hon. Gentleman connected with a financial department should attempt to influence the House in the consideration of a. financial question, by referring to the condition of the slaves. He would assert, that the

801
moral and physical condition of the slaves would most effectually be improved by promoting the welfare of the planters. The true way to raise the condition of the slave was to restore prosperity to the West-Indian colonies. But on the present occasion he must be governed in his course by feelings higher than party or political prejudices. He agreed, that the West Indians required relief; and he trusted that the noble Lord would be able to give encouragement to the hopes of the planters—that the duties on sugar would be reduced in the next year. But, in the present state of the country, the noble Lord having pledged himself to the reduction of the duties on coals and candles, and no satisfactory explanation of the taxes that were to be imposed, that he had heard, had yet been given, he could not, with due regard to the paramount duty of supporting the public faith, concur in the taking off any other taxes. He should be sorry also to give any vote which would interfere with the progress of granting the supplies. He could not vote for the Resolution, because it might encourage hopes which could not at present be realized. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, who was so aware of the necessity of supporting public credit, had not kept as attentive an eye to that necessity when he supported the tax upon transfers, and when equitable adjustment was talked of on a former occasion. For the sake of that credit, he should vote against the Resolution, without regard to any influence it might have upon the state of par-ties. At the same time, he would advise his noble friend net to accept the offer of a committee. The responsibility of attending to the colonial interests was last year left to the Administration; and the neglect of them since had not been occasioned by ignorance or denial of the distress, but by the inability of the Government to devise means of relieving it, consistently with other interests. He did not, however, think that the reduction of the tax upon sugar would afford all the desired relief. The right hon. Baronet had said, that the question before the House was really a party question, and that its decision would determine the continuance of the present Ministry. If he (Sir R. Peel) viewed it in that light, he should think it a sufficient reason for the House to reject the motion; as it ought not to entertain on light grounds a ques-
802
tion involving such results. But, in the present state of the country especially, they ought not to call on Ministers to pledge themselves to reductions of taxation which would endanger the sufficiency of the public revenue to the support of the public faith. He concluded by recommending his noble friend to withdraw his motion.
Mr. Sykesfully admitted the distress of the West-India interest but as he saw no means of giving it relief, he agreed with the right hon. Baronet that the motion ought to be withdrawn.
Mr. Huntobserved, that the mere duty was so small, that the relinquishment of it could not lead to any breach of national faith; but, at the same time, he thought it a fit subject for inquiry. He conceived that, on the present occasion, he should best discharge his duty by supporting his Majesty's Government. In taking off the burthens which pressed upon sea-borne coals, on candles, and lightening the tax on newspapers, Ministers had conferred obligations upon the public, giving them light, heat, and knowledge; and therefore he should, for the present, at least, give them his support. As to the Motion of the noble Lord, it was so exceedingly indefinite, that he hoped no liberal Member of that House would give it. his support; or, rather that no liberal Member of that House would withdraw his support from his Majesty's Government. If they were not so near the first of March, there might be some difficulty in the matter; but at the present crisis, he hoped the noble Lord would not be supported.
The Marquis of Chandos The Marquis of Chandos, in yielding just then to the wish of the House, begged it to be understood, that he was resolved, at some future time, to follow up his present Amendment, when he might hope for more unanimity in the House than there then was.
Amendment withdrawn.
On the original question being put, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
An hon. Member wished to know from the noble Lord opposite, if the report was well founded, that a quantity of arms had been removed from the stores in the Tower, for the use of the French government.
Lord Althorpreplied, that the French government had contracted with certain Birmingham manufacturers for a consider-

803
able quantity of arms; but the time granted for the preparation of them was so short, that the manufacturers applied to the Government of this country, requesting a temporary supply from the Tower, which were to be replaced as quickly as arms could be manufactured in Birmingham. To that extent these supplies were afforded to the French government, but immediately to the contractors in Birmingham. Recently a further demand was made upon his Majesty's Government for a large number; but that had not been acceded to, and was merely under the consideration of the Ministers.
Sir Henry Fanewished to know whether the noble Lord implied that the arrangement referred to had been made by the late Board of Ordnance?
Lord Althorpsaid, No, no.
Sir George Clerkwished that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would state to the House the aggregate amount of the Estimates for the current year. It was his opinion that, in the present state of the country, he ought rather to increase than to diminish the estimated surplus, for it did not appear from what quarter relief was to come.
Lord Althorpdid not at that moment precisely remember the amount of the whole of the estimates as stated by him on a former evening; but, as well as he recollected, it was 46,885,000 l. It was well known that last year's estimated surplus of 300,000 l. had been underrated, for the beer-duties alone made it rise to an amount far beyond that sum; and he was sure the House would agree with him, that some of the reductions which he proposed could not be altogether unattended with success, and that his estimated surplus would, like that of his predecessor, be increased.
Mr. Goulburnunderstood his hon. friend to express a wish to know what the estimates were, as separated from the expenses of the public Debt, that he might have the means of comparing them with the estimates of former years. As for his own views on the subject, he was quite convinced that the noble Lord opposite would find it absolutely necessary to impose other taxes beyond those which he had announced, or else give up some of his reductions.
Mr. Briscoeasked, if there was to be such an increase of troops, what was to become of the principle of non-inter-
804
ference? In his opinion the yeomanry, the constabulary force, and the militia were the legitimate and constitutional power to which the Government ought to look; and as to taxation, he professed himself utterly unable to comprehend how that reduction could be brought about without a reduction of expenditure.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House re solved itself into Committee of Supply.
Mr. C. W. Wynnrose to move the first Resolution; in doing which, and in bringing under the consideration of the Committee the Army Estimates for the present year, he regretted that, it being the first time that duty had devolved on him, that he should find himself under the necessity of proposing an increase of 6878 men instead of A diminution. That increase, however, was not founded upon any opinion on the part of his Majesty's Government that any armed intervention would be necessary. But when he looked at the state of England at the time the Government were called on to determine the amount of men requisite for the service of the current year, and also, when he looked at the state of Ireland, he could not but think that the House would agree with him, that the proposed increase did not exceed what the necessities of the country required. He was sure the House would see, that when the present Ministers were called to the direction of affairs, they were bound to take every possible precaution for the protection of the loyal and well-disposed portion of the community. He felt that he should not discharge his duty to the House, nor to his colleagues, if he did not, in the first instance, call attention to this fact, that the proposed augmentation did by no means involve increased patronage, owing mainly, he was bound to say, to the excellent arrangement introduced by his noble friend near him, when Secretary at War, by which facilities were afforded for the increasing the number of recruits, by lowering the standard. It had been suggested that a better mode would be, to embody the veteran battalions. On the most mature consideration, the Ministers had arrived at the conclusion, that not only the veteran battalions would be less efficient, but eventually more expensive. It should be recollected, also, that most of the veteran battalions were recruited under Mr. Wyndham's Act; that they would, therefore, be

805
entitled to increased pensions for every month they served. It was also to be recollected, that the half-pay list would be materially affected, by carrying such a project into effect, to say nothing; of the inconveniences which would be attendant upon the number of wives and children belonging to the veterans. He wished it to be understood, that the proposed increase of the army was to take place, by the addition of men to the companies, which might at any time be reduced. As to the precise matter then to be brought under the consideration of the Committee, it was confined to the fast eight votes, the ninth, relating solely to the Indian army, involved no increase of expense. The increased expense on the first eight votes was 199,966 l.— there was an apparent increase of 210,000 l.; but. deductions which were to be made from that, left it at the sum he had mentioned. With respect to the Volunteer and Yeomanry force, he certainly regretted the reduction which it had undergone in 1827, nor was he disposed to measure its utility simply by its service, in putting down actual disturbance, but also by the effect, which the knowledge that such a force could be immediately collected, and was at the command of persons of property and consideration, produced towards preventing and checking a disposition to riot. There would be then an expense of 136,000 l. for the additional land forces, and nearly 72,000 l. for the Volunteer and Yeomanry corps; but it was to be observed, that this was not to be an annual expense; and as for the sum of 50,000 l., stated in the Estimates, it would be spread over a period of three years, in the shape of allowances. The right hon. Gentleman complimented the late Secretary at War (Sir H. Hardinge), upon the beneficial alterations he had introduced, upon which it would be the less necessary for him to enter, as his right hon. friend, the First Lord of the Admiralty, had said all that the occasion required. He concluded by moving, "That it is the opinion of the Committee, that the Land Forces for the service of the United Kingdom, for the year ensuing, be 88,496 men, exclusive of the Regiments employed on the territory of the East-India Company."
Colonel Daviessaid, that it was his intention to oppose the vote, and to propose that the grant should be taken for three months, for the purpose of referring
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the Estimates to a Select Committee, with a view to ascertain what reductions upon them could be effected, after duly considering the situation of the country, both positively and in its relations to the Continent. He felt convinced that the force now proposed was much larger than the country required; and that a saving of 100,000 l. at least might easily be effected. It was to his no little surprise that he had received an intimation that his Resolution was to be opposed by His Majesty's Ministers; for, when he had made a similar motion upon the Army Estimates of last year, he had been supported by those who now filled the Treasury benches, and not less than ninety-three Members had voted with him. He felt the greatest confidence in the integrity of the noble Lord opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and if he were Prime Minister, he should be confident that he would support the Motion; but, unfortunately, the noble Lord was not the Prime Minister; he had only under his charge a great and important department, and he (Colonel Davies) did not feel sufficient confidence in the nobleman who was Prime Minister, for him to give up his opinion, and therefore he would take the liberty of always judging for himself. In looking at these estimates, he would begin with the year 1821, which might be called the annus mirabilis of extravagance and discussion on these matters. In that year, the noble Lord had been chained to his seat by the observations on the Opposition side of the House, being pecked at by the vultures there like another Prometheus. In that year the number of troops was 81,106, so that the present number was an increase upon that of 6,936, and the charge was about three millions; by which it would appear, that the increase of the charge now amounted to 119,000 l.: and yet that estimate was denounced at the time as the most wicked and abominable that had ever been heard of. In the year 1822 the number of troops were 71,500, being a diminution of 16,500 when compared with the present year, while the charge at present was 536,000 l. more than it had been then. He would, however, now come to the present year, in which, though he gave the Ministry some credit for the decrease, he must give them still greater credit for the increase; for it appeared, that the total increase might, in round numbers, be estimated at 200,000 l. In the first place, he must object most

807
strenuously to the establishment of the Depot Company, as now instituted, for he thought that great reduction might be made in it without impairing the efficiency of the service in the slightest degree. The charge under that head was nearly 400,000 l. Now, how did this arise? It was expedient that the supernumeraries and staff, as compared with the rank and file, should be as small as possible. But in this establishment, the contrary was exactly the case, for the amount of the supernumeraries and staff was exactly double what it need be. The total amount of the commissioned and non-commissioned officers was upwards of 11,000, while, in fact, they were wholly unfit for anything but to act as a constabulary force, established in the Isle of Wight and other places, where they were utterly useless. Besides this, the system might be called a modern invention, for, till after the war, no such thing had been heard of. There had been recruiting parties indeed; but the charge on recruiting had increased in spite of the depots; 105,342 l. was the total charge of the recruiting service this year; and the charge of the depots was 450,000 l.; so that the country had to pay 550,000 l. for the mere expense of recruiting; and, taking it that 10,000 men were raised in the year, that would be a charge of 55 l. per man. Was not, then, this a fit subject for investigation by a Committee? He thought so, and he had no doubt that on this point alone there might be effected a reduction of 300,000 l. or 400,000 l. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee was, the garrisoning of the troops. In his opinion colonial troops ought to be raised in the colonies where they were to serve, instead of sending the men out there; the consequence of the present system was, that there were frequently 3,000 troops at sea; during which time, of course, they were performing no service whatever. The principle in this country appeared to be, as soon as we got possession of a colony, to see how many jobs we could make of it, while the object of other countries was, to make their colonies support themselves, or even contribute to the mother-country. The Government establishments in the colonies generally were on a shameful scale. In Lower Canada, for instance, the pay and emoluments of the Lieutenant-governor amounted to between 9,000 l. and 10,000 l. a-year.
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This was a rate of remuneration totally uncalled for, and extravagant to a ridiculous degree. He would ask, what was the class of persons from whom these colonial governors were selected? They were generally naval or military officers, and no man would pretend that the Government could not find plenty of them, men of conduct and character, who would be very glad to go out and till such situations for 2,000 l. or 3,000 l. a-year. There was no necessity to support them in state, and the condition they were kept in was totally useless to the colonies. The Governor of Ceylon had been receiving 10,000 l. a year for salary, besides an allowance of 3,500 l. a year on another score. Let them compare the expense of the British army with that of Foreign armies, and the Committee would be astonished. The charge of our Army and Ordnance amounted to six millions (exclusive of the Dead Weight), for which sum 94,000 or 96,000 men were supported. The French army, under the Bourbons, which, by the speech of M. Lafitte, appeared now to be considered as on much too expensive a scale, consisted of 250,000 men, who were supported at an expense of 5,200,000 l.; and in Prussia, where the whole revenue of the country did not amount to eight millions, an army of 180,000 men was supported. There was one principle which, in his opinion, might be adopted, effecting a great saving. He meant by the adoption of some sort of yeomanry arrangement—not a national guard, that should appoint its own officers and employ its time in presenting petitions to the king—but a corps that should have its officers appointed by the Crown, and whose whole movements should be under the influence of the Crown. It was by arming those who had property, and were devoted to the institutions of the country, against those who had no property, and had no regard for those institutions, that true security would be obtained. The present distress of the country was undeniable; and though he should be sorry to do anything hostile to the present Government, no personal feeling could allow him to vote what was uncalled for by the country, and he must, therefore, refuse the sanction of so humble a name as his own to such a measure. He could assure the Ministers, that any proposition of Reform would be an act of self-immolation, unless they were prepared to alter their course in this respect;

809
for it would be impossible, under that Reform, for any Ministry to hold office for two months, unless they could make up their minds to real economy and retrenchment. He should, therefore, move, as an Amendment, that the Supply for the Army should only be voted from the 1st of January to the 1st of April, in order that a Committee might be appointed to inquire into the expenditure.
Mr. Beaumontthought, that it was of no use for the hon. and gallant Member to say, that he wished to see the country in a better condition if he would not help to place it there. The hon. and gallant Member had asked what there was in the state of the country now which called for additional troops; but he need not look far for an answer, for there was an hon. and learned Gentleman sitting near him, who had said, that if he raised his right hand, he could put the people in a state of rebellion. [A murmur in the House, during which Mr. O'Connell made some observations which did not reach strangers.] If he had used too strong an expression, he was sorry for it; but the hon. and learned Member had been told before then, that his speeches, which began with peace, ended with sedition. That was his (Mr. Beaumont's) opinion also, and that was one of the reasons why the Army Estimates were obliged to be of so large an amount. It was not long since the Special Commissions had terminated; and the state of France and of Russia still called for the most serious attention, so that he could not understand why the hon. and gallant Member should have been at a loss for the motives that had induced the Government to increase the number of troops.
Mr. O'Connellwould not have trespassed on the time of the Committee, had it not been for the extraordinary attack in the extraordinary speech which they had just heard. The hon. Gentleman had commenced with an attack on the gallant Officer who had preceded him, and had then proceeded to show his perfect knowledge of the state of the country; after which, he had bestowed his meed of disapprobation on him (Mr. O'Connell). He, however, begged to invite the hon. Gentleman to continue that disapprobation, for, after the specimen he had given of his judgment and intellect, he thought that that must be much preferable to his applause. The hon. Gentleman had said, that the state of Ireland required an aug-
810
mentation of the army—that the state of England required an augmentation—that the state of France required an augmentation—and that, above all, the state of Russia required an augmentation of the army. In order to fight all these Powers there was to be an increase to our establishment of 7,000 men; this was, indeed, a most extraordinary labour of a mountain bringing forth a mouse. The hon. Member had, however, thought proper to attribute rebellious principles to him (Mr. O'Connell), but there was no language, consistent with parliamentary usage, sufficiently strong for him to declare his denial of the foul aspersion—his rejection of the atrocious calumny. The hon. Member had talked of his loyalty; "but," said Mr. O'Connell, "I practise loyalty." [Cheers.] He knew there would always be a ready cheer when any thing was said against him (Mr. O'Connell), for he belonged to the most afflicted country in the world, oppressed by famine, which was once said to be periodical, and he sought to make her sufferings known, and to cause them to be redressed. Why was it in a state of famine? it was not sterile; on the contrary, it was the most productive country on the face of the earth, and yet its population were starving. He sought to relieve his country from this state of wretchedness, and if he were to enter into the particulars of his conduct, he could easily repudiate the calumnies which were thrown out by the hon. Member. It was easy to throw out such aspersions, but he would treat them—he would not say with contempt—but with the indifference they deserved. He was also accused of sedition; but if he had been guilty of it, why had he not been prosecuted? He had spoken no speech in Ireland at which there were not Reporters from two Government papers, and when he perceived they had any difficulty in procuring accommodation, he took care that it should be provided for them. He would ask, then, what it was that induced the hon. Member to introduce those remarks upon him? Was it that he desired to court popularity in that House? He was, of course, aware, that any attack upon him (Mr. O'Connell) was a sure clap-trap in that House, and he therefore resolved to make the attack, in order to bring down a cheer. This attack was the second which had been made upon him that evening, for the only reason, he believed, because those who did not choose to assail others,

811
thought they might safely assail him. He had not said one single word to call for these attacks; but he would pass it over, however, with the mere observation, that if any man exceeded him in affection for the land of his birth, he would allow him, but no other person, to be his calumniator. He felt that he did not deserve the censure which had been cast upon him, and in repelling it, he could assure the House, that he did so without being actuated by one spark of indignation.
Colonel Sibthorpregretted, that it was deemed necessary to increase the military establishment of the country, but as the measure was decided upon, he thought the cheapest mode of doing so would be, by calling out the pensioners, by which step, if necessary, 18,000 men might be added to the military force of the kingdom.
Lord Althorpsaid, he regretted the necessity of adding to the military force, but he would not then argue for the propriety of the measure, feeling satisfied that it was not necessary for him to do so. With respect to the rest of the estimates, he was willing to admit, that there were several points in which reductions might be made, but how was it possible for his right hon. friend to do so when just coming into office without the benefit of experience? It would be imprudent for him to have gone too far before he had had time to make the necessary inquiries, but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could assure the House that the strictest inquiry should be made into every item of expenditure, and every office should be reduced that might appear on examination to be useless. The hon. and gallant Colonel (Davies) knew, that the vote had never been taken for so short a period; indeed, there could be no advantage in taking it for so short a period. The other hon. and gallant Colonel (Sibthorp) had stated, that the better mode of increasing the army would be, by calling out the pensioners; but as every pensioner would be entitled to additional pay for his additional services, and as, in that case, also additional officers would become requisite, he thought it would prove to be by no means the most economical plan. The families of those pensioners would also be thrown upon the public, which expense would not be incurred if young men were enlisted for the service. Upon the whole, he thought the House would show very little
812
confidence in the Government if they did not, according to the usual practice, grant the vote for the whole year.
Sir Henry Hardingethought the plan proposed by Ministers for increasing the army much the cheapest, and when completed, he did not believe that it would then exceed the usual peace establishment. He thought that Ministers did themselves much credit by resorting to the old constitutional force of the country, —the yeomanry. As the estimate for the militia appeared to be 133,000 l., he wished to ask, what numbers were to be called out? He was also desirous of knowing if the Irish militia was to be called out, for if so, the estimate was too low, by the sum of at least 50,000 l. He had looked through the estimates, and, as regarded the staff, he could find only two reductions, namely, the reduction of the office of Treasurer of the Military Asylum, and that of the Treasurer of the Military College. Of both of these reductions he disapproved. A great many important duties attached to the office of Treasurer of the Military Asylum, which had been exceedingly well performed by Messrs. Cox and Greenwood, the latter gentleman being the holder of the office at the very moderate salary of 300 l. per annum, or about one and a half per cent on the disbursements. The duties of the Treasurer of the Military College were nearly the same as those of the other office. There had, however, formerly been a Paymaster at the College, but that office having been abolished, an increase of duty necessarily devolved upon the Treasurer. Government had selected the Messrs. Collier for the office, at a salary of 300 l. a year, which had since been reduced to 200 l., being about one per cent on the disbursements; and he begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. W. Wynn), if he could get his private affairs managed for a less sum. He could find no other reductions in the staff but those, and now that the right hon. Gentleman had had the opportunity of examining into the estimates, he would ask him, if he could support those accusations of gross abuses of patronage, which had been supposed to have existence in that department. He was happy that the right hon. Gentleman had not endangered the army by any crude or party experiment in reduction. He believed that many reductions might still be made, not suddenly,

813
however, but only as time and occasion offered. He thought the internal state of the country a sufficient cause for the increase of our military establishment; but it was at all events required by the grave and important aspect which affairs wore upon the continent of Europe. When he read the speech of the French Minister, he confessed there were some passages in it which excited in his mind considerable apprehension. When he perceived that the estimate for the year for the service of the State of France was no less than 47,000,000 l. sterling, and when he perceived that the expenses for the army alone, exclusive of the National Guards, &c, amounted to no less than 9,000,000 l. —when he perceived that France was, in fact, one great camp—he could not avoid entertaining some misgivings. He had no doubt, however, that he should receive explanation of these matters at a proper period; and he should, therefore, only say, that the army of this country was never in a higher state of discipline than at the present time; and, though he hoped the time might be far distant when the peace of Europe would be disturbed, yet, should it unhappily arrive, we had an army as well prepared as any which this country ever had, to maintain the national honour and safety.
Mr. S. Ricesaid, it was unfair to compare the present Estimate with those which had been made in times and under circumstances in every respect different. The reduction of the offices of Treasurer of the Military College, and Treasurer of the Military Asylum, was to be justified on the ground that the duties could be as well performed by an ordinary Clerk.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that he appeared in the very unusual character of a member of the Government defending the reduction of useless offices. It was, he said, the intention to call out the Irish Militia, and the expense of doing so would be about 50,000 l., because the clothing had not been renewed for the last eleven or twelve years, and was, therefore, literally worn to rags, while the arms and accoutrements were equally useless. Ireland was in such a condition that it required the most vigilant superintendence, and Government, in increasing the military establishment, thought it right to refer to the old constitutional force of the country. He had no hesitation in saying, that with Government it was a choice of evils, and
814
it was compelled to take the step of increasing the forces, or of running the risk of a serious disturbance. He felt confident that no one would attribute to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, who was so attached to the country, a desire once more to excite religious animosity. It was true that a great proportion of the Yeomanry of the North of Ireland were Protestants; but still it must be self-evident that Lord Anglesey could have no party feeling to gratify in calling them forth, for he was only anxious for the peace of the country, which, he had no doubt, would be restored with the aid of the old constitutional force of the kingdom.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, it appeared that the Yeomanry force of Ireland had, by the account given by the right hon. Gentleman, been, for the last eight or ten years, a most heavy and useless expense. The sum of 18,000 l. or 19,000 l. per year had been paid for the maintenance of that corps during that period; and yet, when it came to be inspected, it was found, according to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, to be totally unfit for the public service. When the different Yeomanry corps were in activity they were not efficient, they were divided into such unequal proportions.—For instance, in the province of Ulster, where there were no Whiteboy disturbances, and where, indeed, there were very few local outrages of any kind, there were 8,000 or 9,000 men; while in Connaught, there were about 700; and in Munster, 1,500; It was one of the misfortunes of Ireland, that she was subjected to the disadvantage of having some young Nobles sent over to servo their apprenticeships as Statesmen. He looked upon the hon. Member who had just sat down, and whom he had formerly designated by a name which he would not repeat as an apprentice Statesman. Ireland was the place to which all such were sent to serve their apprenticeship to the art of Government, and then they came over to this country to fill offices of higher rank in the State. He looked upon the noble Lord as if he were one of those apprentices, and as being really wholly and totally unacquainted with the wants and interests of Ireland. Surely he ought to be aware that the Yeomanry of the North of Ireland were all Orangemen, and that in all places where they were on duty, local dissensions or bloodshed ensued. The hon. Member

815
might have known, that it was the practice of these Orangemen to attend fairs, and other assemblages of the people, leaving their arms behind them at a short distance from the place. They then picked a quarrel, sent for their arras, and generally shot several persons before the riot could be quelled. Probably Lord Anglesey might not be acquainted with this mode of proceeding. It was notorious too, that the Irish Yeomanry corps, after the Rebellion, formed a nucleus of insurrection and riot. The number of men they had put to death was unknown, but it was very great. Consisting of Orangemen, they had no consideration for the Catholics, and would not associate with them. He would tell him that the better plan would be, to increase the army, for the regular soldiers were submissive to the law. The King's troops had no party-spirit to gratify, and the consequence was, that the people always looked to them for protection. He would not discuss the question whether it was necessary to increase the military force, but he implored the noble Lord opposite (Althorp), that he would not suffer himself to be led away by those who paid an hour's visit to Ireland, and who said, that no religious animosity existed at the very moment they were about to take steps the most calculated to revive it. As the increase was to take place, he should feel it his duty to vote for the increase of the King's troops, rather than have the Militia again called out, believing the latter to be the most successful plan that could be devised for reviving religious distinctions and dissensions. He could not help looking on the announcement of that evening, as being one of doleful omen to Ireland.
Mr. Stanleysaid, that whatever might be the feelings of the House upon the subject, he felt certain that the speech of the hon. member for Waterford would justify a much larger increase than what was now proposed; and, if any discussion should hereafter take place relative to the culling out of the Militia, they had at all events the opinion of the hon. member for Waterford, that it would be more desirable to increase the King's troops. The hon. Member took occasion to tell him that he had spoken of him elsewhere in terms which he declined to repeat.
Mr. O'Connell.Mr. O'Connell.—Not as applied to the hon. Member personally [cries of yes, yes.] I admit I, in the course of a speech, intro-
816
duced a humorous story, in which I said, that the persons who generally filled the office now held by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Stanley), resembled shave-beggars.
Mr. Stanleysaid, he had read reports of speeches delivered by the hon. member for Waterford elsewhere, which convinced him that the hon. Member was usually aware of his audience when he spoke; for no two persons could be more different from each other than the hon. member for Waterford, speaking in that House, and the same hon. Member elsewhere, or rather somebody who bore his name, for he could scarcely believe it to be the same person, when "courting the most sweet voices of the rabble." Whatever might be his conduct elsewhere, however, he appeared and conducted himself in that House as the hon. member for Waterford, and as such, therefore, he should treat him, dismissing from his mind all former transactions—and without condescending to notice the "shave-beggar abuse" which he might have cast upon him elsewhere. The Government of Ireland could rely with confidence on the returning good sense of the people of that country, and with equal confidence on the zeal and discretion of the Yeomanry.
Lord F. L. Gowersupported the original Resolution. He thought the whole subject had been so repeatedly discussed, that it was a waste of time and words then to enter further into it.
Mr. Humesaid, it was ridiculous to call the proposed army a peace establishment, when there was an increase of 10,000 men beyond what was usual for some years back. If Russia was disposed to go to war, and if France was turned into a camp, what had England to fear from that?— The people of this country had neither any wish to interfere, nor any interest in interfering with them.—By the present system, the country was maintaining one officer to every six men. He was filled with wonder, when he heard the people on every side calling for reduction, and when he heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say, that he could not take off one tax, without laying on another—to think that out of 15,000,000 l., which was the Estimate for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, means could not be found to make some deductions. Surely 3,000,000 l. might easily be reduced from this enormous sum. We had no less than 15,000

817
officers on full-pay, and 10,000 on half-pay, so that, in fact, we had nearly an army of officers. He was convinced from experience, that the calling out of the Yeomanry was an injudicious scheme, and if additional troops were necessary, he thought the more economical plan would be to increase the regular army than to call out the Militia. The Committee had been led away from the real question which ought to occupy its consideration— namely, whether that House was to sanction an Estimate which would entail such an enormous expense upon the country, at a time when the national resources were so ill calculated to bear it. If this expenditure were encouraged, the country ought not to be surprised at the difficulties and embarrassments by which it would find itself surrounded. Before the French war, the whole of the expense for the entire service of the State did not exceed 15,000,000 l., and now the country was called upon to vote such a disproportionate sum merely for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, that it really ought not to submit to the demand. Since 1817 no less a sum than 220,000,000 l. sterling, had been expended for the support of the military establishment during a time of profound peace. Was not this quite sufficient to account for the distresses of the country? The amount thus lavished was one-fourth part of the National Debt. Now, if that money had been applied as wisely and as judiciously as the national funds were administered in America, we might be in somewhat a similar situation to that country, which had now a prospect of being free from debt in another year. He had thought that, with the removal of Lord Castlereagh, we had taken leave of the Continent, and were in future to confine ourselves to the protection of our own shore, without interfering in the policy, or the affairs of other States. Recollecting that the design of opening the Scheldt had led to a war which involved us in an expense of 750,000,000 l., he was extremely averse to engaging in a similar enterprise, which seemed to be relied upon as the great merit of the present Government. He regretted that a right hon. Gentleman at that side of the House should have had an opportunity of saying that the statement made by the noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, reminded him of the good old
818
times of the Castlereagh system—of those times when the Holy Alliance dictated Constitutions to the States of Europe, and when millions of men were driven in herds, like cattle, and placed under whatever form of government Lord Castlereagh thought proper to prescribe. Such was the description of policy which had led to the present condition of our affairs. Would the House of Commons sanction the present extravagant and inordinate Estimates for such reasons as they had heard advanced? If they did, let no man in the country hope to have his Assessed Taxes taken off, or his burthens relieved. 15,000,000 l. sterling for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance! What would be the effect of this enormous Estimate, which would certainly incur the disapprobation and censure of the whole country? It would enable the Ministers to interfere still further in the affairs of other countries, and to involve this kingdom in increased difficulties—[the noise in the House at this time was very great.] He saw that the House was against him— that what he was saying did not meet with their concurrence; but even that should not prevent him from taking the sense of the House, if he felt that his duty required it. But he thought he was called upon to make some allowance for the situation in which his Majesty's Government was placed, and to hope that those Gentlemen would see what the interests of the country required, and would feel the necessity of retracing their steps, and making some atonement for their deviation from that which was strictly the right path, by the nature of the Reform which they meant to propose. That Reform would give the country the means of redress, if it were effectual; and in the mean time he might content himself with having done his duty by protesting against the extravagance of these Estimates.
Lord Palmerstonsaid, that the good humour with which the hon. member for Middlesex urged his objections to the propositions of his Majesty's Government was gratifying, particularly amidst the difficulties with which their proceedings were necessarily attended. The hon. Member had said, that he was surprised to find both sides of the House supporting these Estimates. Now, he confessed it did not excite any surprise in his mind, that in times when the tranquility of the country was disturbed,

819
and when additional means were required to preserve good order, and to give effect to the course of the laws—he felt no surprise that both sides of the House should concur in such measures as were necessary for accomplishing those objects. He was perfectly persuaded, on the one hand, that this was not the first time that it had so happened, under such circumstances;—so, on the other hand, he was convinced that it would not be the last, if occasion offered, to require a similar degree of unanimity for the protection of the interests of the State. The hon. member for Middlesex found fault with the expression which he (Lord Palmerston) had used on a former evening, that the augmentation of force proposed in the present instance was merely with a view to complete the peace establishment. When he used that expression, he merely meant that all that was now proposed was to render perfect the establishment which had existed in the preceding year, and, in fact, for three years past, and, therefore, the present might certainly be described as a peace establishment, as compared with such an augmentation as might be required if any exigency obliged the Government to call upon the country to prepare for warlike operations. The hon. Gentleman had again adverted to the topics of foreign policy, to which he had applied himself on a former night. He (Lord Palmerston) should not be led by the hon. Gentleman's observations to go into any explanation on those points, but would simply assure the hon. Member and the House, that whenever the time should arrive when an explanation could with propriety be given of the course which had been pursued in those transactions, it would not be found that England had been dictating to other States in any matters appertaining to their internal constitutions. It was preposterous to suppose, that the addition of 6,000 or 7,000 men was proposed with a view of intermeddling in the internal affairs of other countries, His right hon. friend, the Secretary at War, had in his opening observations on these Estimates, stated fully the grounds on which that addition was proposed, and explained, that it was not with a view to anything connected with our foreign relations with other countries, but to the preservation of our internal tranquility. He had no doubt that, if the time should ever arrive when his Majesty's Government
820
should find it necessary to call upon Parliament to maintain the interests or the character and the dignity of the country, the means would be readily provided; but, as he had said, the present augmentation was proposed, not with a view to our external relations, but to the internal circumstances of the country. He would add only one observation upon the system of external policy which the hon. member for Middlesex recommended. The hon. Gentleman said, we ought to withdraw from all concern with the Continent, to keep within our natural boundaries; and that, having disbanded our army, and dismantled our fleet, we might rely upon our insular position, and rest secure from any foreign invasion. Now, his (Lord Palmerston's) opinion was, that although our position was insular, yet we should not be the less safe from foreign aggression from the circumstance of our having a good army in readiness to defend us, and our shores guarded by a respectable navy.
Mr. Faneconcurred in the proposed augmentation, but expressed his hope that a reduction would be effected whenever it could be done with safety.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, he could never agree that the state of military force on the Continent was a ground for augmenting the military force of this country. It might be a sufficient reason for increasing the navy, but it was time enough for England to arm her military force, when her honour or necessity required it. It was not necessary to keep up a large military establishment for that purpose. Whenever the state of the country should admit of a reduction of the establishment now proposed, he should certainly be quite prepared, on the part of his Majesty's Government, to recommend it; but he did not think that in the course of the ensuing month, we should be better able to decide upon that point than at present. All he could say was, that he should call upon the House to reduce the force, at the earliest moment it could be done consistently with the preservation of tranquility and order. He was anxious to answer some observations which had been made at the other side of the House. He was not aware that he had, either in the course of his observations this evening, or at any other period, complained of the estimates of the late Secretary at War. He would state again what he had stated before—viz., that he thought the country

821
was under great obligations to that right hon. Gentleman, for the steady and practical economy which he had introduced into his department; but still he hoped that further reductions were practicable. Several had, in fact, taken place; such as the reduction of the salary of the governor of Ceylon from 10.000 l. to 8,000 l. per year, and many more were in contemplation, particularly in the colonies, the detail of which could not yet be made public.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, in explanation, that as the late Government had been accused of not having done enough in the way of retrenchment, he had thought it fair to ask what reduction the present Government had made in these large Estimates?
Mr. C. Bullerwas not satisfied with the reasons assigned for the proposed augmentation, and he thought that in such times of distress and difficulty, nothing but some pressing danger should have induced the Ministers to propose an augmentation of the military force.
Mr. Littletonsaid, that, in his opinion, the late Government were entitled to thanks for the assiduous and diligent efforts which they had applied to the work of reduction; and he was also grateful to the present Government for having made this addition to the force at so small an expense. He must say, that he had never been in any company where a great tribute of praise was not paid to his right hon. friend, the late Secretary at War, for the manner in which he had administered the affairs of that department while under his control. He (Mr. Littleton) was not afraid of his constituents knowing that he was in favour of a small augmentation of the force. Seeing the state of affairs on the Continent, he thought the Government was not departing from its principle, in making a small increase of the defences of the country.
Mr. Huntsaid, the last hon. Member had praised both the late Ministry and the present Ministry, but he feared that he could praise neither. The present Ministry had promised a great deal in the way of retrenchment, and now they came forward proposing an augmentation of expenditure. They proposed a reduction of some 300 l. on the one hand, and on the other hand, including the Yeomanry, and other parts of the additional force, an increase of 300,000 l. or 500,000 l. The effect of these pleasures would be, to place them in such
822
a situation with the country as would give them reason to be very much dissatisfied with the result. One hon. Member said, that the force was to be increased on account of the disturbed state of the country, while another said, that it was owing to the agitated state of the Continent. In God's name, he would ask, why increase the army from 81,000 to 88,000, and augment the navy by 3,000 men to put down disturbances in the country? And if it were done on account of the aspect of affairs on the Continent, he would say, that the measure was quite inadequate. He therefore implored the Government, for the sake of the people of this country—for the sake of the suffering constituents of the hon. Member for Staffordshire, who was friendly to this increase of expense, not to add to their burthens. With regard to the conduct of the present Ministers he begged to say a few words. If he understood the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) right, on Friday night last, the right hon. Baronet, in a tone of irony, congratulated the present Administration on the subjects of economy and non-intervention. His Majesty's present Ministers, observed the right hon. Baronet, pursued exactly the same course on those two heads as their predecessors. What had Ministers done, he begged to inquire? They had not introduced any economical plans to relieve the country, and they had interfered with other States. If the statements which had got abroad were correct, the five great Powers had been dictating to Belgium as to her future king. After the Belgians had fought for and obtained liberty, their only fault was, that they did not do, what was much better than elect a king—appoint a President, and have a republican form of government at once. A similar fault had been committed by the French people, who fought so bravely the three days of July. The error which the French nation had committed, after losing 8,000 men on those days which he had alluded to, was in not returning to a republican form of government. The hon. member for Windsor (Mr. Stanley) had taunted the hon. member for Waterford (Mr. O'Connell), and said, that he used very different language in that House from what he applied to the Dublin rabble. He (Mr. Hunt) had frequent opportunities of hearing the hon. member for Windsor, when they were candidates at Preston, and he could say, from that experience, that the hon. Gentleman appeared

823
as much pleased with a cheer from the populace as any one. He thought the hon. Secretary for Ireland had betrayed a warmth of temper, when speaking of the hon. member for Waterford, which was not warrantable. He regretted that the hon. Gentleman had done so. He felt assured, however, that the hon. member for Windsor would not taunt him with speaking different language at different places; and in order to put this to the test, if the hon. Member would remind him of any one sentence which he had uttered at Preston, he would repeat it to the House. He begged to say, he would repeat it to the House, whether it was orderly or disorderly—[a laugh, and cries of "Question"]. If hon. Members were tired of the debate—if they wished to go home—when the clock struck twelve (it was then ten minutes to twelve), he would move an adjournment of the House. He was reminded that the clock never struck; but when the hand pointed to twelve he would move an adjournment. The first question before the House was, whether the army establishment should be not only kept up, but actually increased for a year; since which, an amendment had been proposed, to vote the amount now submitted for three months only. He begged to say, that with neither of these propositions did he agree; and he should take the liberty of moving a further amendment, that, instead of 81,000 men being kept up, the number should be reduced to 71,000 men; and, if any hon. Member would second his amendment, he would assuredly divide the House. He had, on one occasion, proceeded to a division, and had a very small number voted with him; but he should not be deterred, on that account, from performing what he considered his duty. On the present occasion, he was anxious to show the people of England to whom they were indebted for voting, for the establishment of the army and navy, 15,000,000 l. a-year. He had been much amused at the laudatory cackle which had passed between the present and the late Secretary of War. The present Secretary complimented the late Secretary, and then, to keep the game a-going, the late Secretary returned the compliment to his successor. It was a singular spectacle to see how Gentlemen, who went from the Opposition to the Ministerial side of the House, changed their opinions with their seats, just as if there had been some atmosphere about the Ministerial benches
824
which rendered such a change inevitable. He had been told, that there was an atmosphere in that House, which, before long, would work a change even upon him. He thought that was a mistake. He did not feel the change at present,—he did not expect that he should feel it, for he carried a little charm about him to prevent him from being contaminated. He would, in conclusion, say, that he had not heard one word from either side of the House that convinced him of the necessity of increasing the standing army. If, indeed, the country was in such a situation that it required 87,000 men for the service of England, it was bad indeed. If the country were in that condition, he would beg leave to ask, who was it that had brought it into that state? Could not the people of England be intrusted with arms? He would say, that they dare not intrust arms in the hands of the people of England. If arms were placed in their hands, there would be a Reform of Parliament within three months. Give them the Vote by Ballot, and the House might trust them with arms, for they would then feel that they had a share in making the laws, and would feel pride in protecting them from violation. Let the House bear in mind in what way the petitions were received. Members came clown with the petitions of the people, day after day, in order to present them, but had no opportunity; and when they were presented, there was such a noise in the House, that the clerk, who read them, could not be heard. The hon. Member concluded by moving an Amendment, that instead of 83,000 men for the Army, the number should be reduced from 81,000 (the present force) to 71,000 men.
The Amendment having been seconded,
Sir Alexander Grantinquired whether the hon. member for Preston intended the proposition to extend to a year, or three months?
Mr. Hunt Mr. Hunt.—For a year.
After the original question, with the two amendments, had been put by the Chairman of the Committee,
Lord Morpethsaid, after the threat held out by the hon. member for Preston, with respect to moving the adjournment of the House, he should observe the limits prescribed of old to Cinderella. In what he should address to the House he should be very brief. He had always, hitherto, supported the principles of economy and Reform;

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and notwithstanding the baneful influence which the hon. member for Preston said pervaded the benches on which he had the honour to sit, he felt that he was not giving a vote at variance with his former principles when he supported the original Motion. It had been described as a singular anomaly, that Ministers, who had obtained office by their economical pledges, should propose to raise the military force of the country from 81,000 to 88,000 men. A gallant Officer opposite had proposed to grant the necessary supply for this force for three months; but had refused to grant it for a longer period. The hon. member for Preston had refused to grant it at all, and had even proposed to reduce the army to 71,000 men. Now, he would put it even to that hon. member himself, whether circumstances might net render it expedient to have our forces so arranged, that at a moment's notice a large body of troops might be conveyed to a place of danger. In a single district, in a single hour, events might take place, through the machinations of turbulent men, which, if not instantly repressed, might occasion an expenditure which years of strict economy would not repair. That danger of this nature had recently existed in the British Islands, no man could deny: that it had now ceased, he believed all men would agree. The hon. member for Middlesex had used something like a taunt against the gentlemen of England, for not coming forward as the people of France had done, and forming themselves into ranks for the defence of their country. God forbid that the gentlemen of this country should act as their neighbours in France had done. Who could view what had so recently passed in that country, without feeling deep regret? Monuments of art had been destroyed, and emblems of religion cast under foot, by a tyrannical mob. The hon. member for Preston thought that the people of France had been guilty of a great fault in not establishing a republic. He (Lord Morpeth) should have thought that no man could have dwelt with pleasure on the recollections of the French republic. He concurred in the vote which had been proposed by the Secretary of War, conceiving the increase of the army to be a means of preserving order at home and peace abroad. He was sorry that such a necessity existed. He entertained the utmost reliance upon the pledges of economy which his Ma-
826
jesty's Ministers had given, and he was confident that they believed an additional force to be necessary, otherwise they never would have submitted such a proposition.
Colonel Daviessaid, after what had been stated by the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) as to the examination of some points to which he (Colonel Davies) had called the attention of the Committee, he would withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Huntpersisted in dividing the House on his amendment, when there appeared,—Against it 250; in favour of it 6—Majority 244.
The original Resolution, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a sum, not exceeding 2,796,043 l. be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charges and expenses of the Land Forces for the year 1831," agreed to.
The House resumed.

List of the Minority.

Buller, Charles

Warburton, Henry

Hume, Joseph

Wood, John

Mahon, O'Gorman

TELLER.

O'Connell, Daniel

Hunt, Henry

MINUTES.
Bills. The Scotch Bankruptcy Laws' Continuation Bill, and the Settlement of the Poor's Bill, were brought up from the Commons, and read a first time.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of the Karl of WINCHILSHA, the amount of Monies raised by each Parish within the County of Kent, for Payment of Constables' Bills, from Michaelmas, 1827, to Michaelmas, 1830; distinguishing each year separately; and also, the amount of Monies raised in the County of Kent, for County Rate, from Michaelmas, 1827, to Michaelmas, 1830, distinguishing each year separately:—On the Motion of Lord TRYNHAM, an account of the quantity of Coculus Indicus, Quassia, and Extract of Quassia, imported into Great Britain during the year 1830, and the amount of Duty paid thereon.
Petitions presented. For Reform, by Lord DACRE, from Bishop Stortford:—By the Earl of RADNOR, from Bristol, Lincoln, and Malmesbury; and from the Butchers of Dublin, for a Repeal of the Union. By the Duke of DEVONSHIRE, from Waterford, for an Alteration in the Grants to the Kildare-street Society. By the Bishop of LONDON, from the Congregation of Tavistock Chapel, for the appointment of a day for a General Fast:—By Lord BEXLEY, from Southampton, to the same effect. Against Slavery, by the Earl of CAWDOR, the Bishop of LICHFIELD, Lord BEXLEY, and the Bishop of WINCHESTER, from various Congregations of Dissenters.

TITHES.
Lord Dacrebegged leave to inquire of the right rev. Prelate, what progress had been made in bringing forward a Bill for the Composition of Tithes, which their Lordships had been some time expecting? He hoped that the Bill would contemplate a commutation, and not a composition; and he begged the right rev. Prelate to understand, if it were only for the latter, he should feel himself called upon to introduce to their Lordships a measure which should have for its object a commutation of tithes, and not a composition; and he was assured that the Legislature would support him.
The Archbishop of Canterburysaid, that the Bill to which the noble Lord alluded had been a long time under consideration, and it was so still, as it was desirable it should be made as perfect as possible. With respect to the latter part of the noble Lord's question—namely, whether it was for a composition or a commutation? —he could only answer, that the Bill preserved its original character, and that it would establish a composition for a term of years. With regard to the hint which the noble Lord had given, of introducing
728
a measure for a commutation, he begged leave to inform him, that a bill, either for a commutation or composition, must have its origin in the other House.

BANKRUPT LAWS.
The Lord Chancellorpresented a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Corporation of London, for an alteration in the Bankrupt Laws. He recommended this petition to their Lordships, as it came from men of practical experience, who had daily opportunities of seeing the ill effects of the operation of the present system. He would take that opportunity of correcting a misapprehension which had taken place, of what he said on a late occasion, in presenting a petition from the merchants and traders of London on the same subject. He was stated to have confirmed the facts detailed in the petition; whereas, he had only given the statement on the authority of the petition itself. He understood that he had been supposed to reflect on the character of the Commissioners of Bankrupts; whereas, from his own experience of those gentlemen, he was of opinion that any statement, generally speaking, against them, was without foundation.
Petition to lie on the Table.

CHURCH BUILDING BILL.
The Bishop of Londonmoved the second reading of a Bill to encourage, under certain regulations, the Building of Churches by private individuals. His Lordship said, that by the common law of the land, any person who should build a new church or chapel would not possess the patronage of it; but that patronage would go to the incumbent of the parish. This operated as a discouragement to pious men, who might otherwise be disposed to erect buildings for the performance of divine worship according to the rites of the Church. The object of the present Bill was, to remove that cause of discouragement, by giving to such persons as erected places of worship, with the sanction of the Commissioners for building New Churches, and the Bishop in whose diocess they might be built, the right of nomination. It had of late been the fashion in other places, and in the public prints, to cast a great deal of obloquy on the Board of Commissioners for Building Churches, the members of which had faithfully discharged the important trust reposed in them. He had been a member of that Board for seven

729
years, and he would challenge any man to point out any Board which had discharged its duty gratuitously with more activity, fidelity, impartiality, or with a more liberal sacrifice of time and attention. The munificence of the Legislature of this Christian empire had placed at the disposal of that Board a sum of l,500,000 l.; and during the time that they had the disposal of that fund, they had built 134 churches and chapels, in which there were 192,974 sittings, 106,154 of which were free to the poor. He felt great satisfaction in stating, that every chapel and church built by his Majesty's Commissioners, with very few exceptions, to be accounted for by local circumstances, had, since their erection, been filled to overflowing, without, at the same time, any diminution taking place in the numbers of those who attended the old churches of the country. He there- fore did not scruple to put it to their lord- ships, whether 1,500,000 l. could be better disposed of, in the present state of the country.
Bill read a second time.

GREECE.
Earl Greysaid, that seeing a noble Earl (Aberdeen) in his place, who had put a question to him a few evenings ago, he begged leave to say a few words, in order to afford that information which at the moment he had been unable to give. The noble Earl had asked him, if any negotiation was pending, by which the limits of the new State of Greece were to be extended? When the question was asked, he (Earl Grey) had in his mind that some communications had passed on the subject; but he thought it would be highly improper, with that imperfect recollection, to give a decided answer. However, he had since made inquiries, and he could now inform the noble Earl, that communications had been made, but they had not led to any thing which might be considered a negotiation. Whether they might lead to it hereafter, or not, was a matter he could not anticipate; but certainly there was nothing that could be called negotiation going on at present. With regard to what the noble Earl had stated, as to the terms already made, he could only say that he considered them to be valid and binding, but not immutable, as the noble Earl conceived them. They were like all other things of the same nature, subject to such alterations as might be thought necessary for the mutual advantage of both parties, and which the parties
730
concerned desired and consented to. He had also to add, that if an extension of the territory of the new State could take place, with the cordial acquiescence of all those who were interested in the subject, it would, in his opinion, add to the security of Greece, and confirm the general tranquility of other States. He had only to repeat, that nothing should be done except on the principle which he had stated—of perfect good faith, and for the advantage, and with the consent, of the parties mainly interested.
The Earl of Aberdeenexpressed satisfaction at the answer of the noble Earl; but he entreated the noble Earl, before any communications were followed up by what might truly be called a negotiation, to examine the real nature of the engagement, which, in calling immutable, he only meant to say was as binding as it was possible for an engagement to be. He therefore hoped that the noble Earl, before opening a new engagement, would well weigh the extreme difficulty and mischief which he was certain must be produced before the negotiation could be brought to a termination.

THE UNION OF WICKLOW.
Lord King roseto bring on the motion of which he had given notice, relative to | the report made by the Archbishop of Dublin to the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council of Ireland, to obtain their sanction to the great Union of Wicklow. In doing so it was not his intention to enter into the many abuses, with regard to unions, which were so characteristic of the Irish Church, and by which so many parishes were combined into one grand benefice, though it was an admitted evil, and though it served, above all other things, to bring into contrast the poverty of the people, and the great—nay, overgrown—wealth of! the Church Establishment of Ireland. If any friend of the Church Establishment of Ireland were asked the reason why so large a portion of the public revenue should be set apart for the maintenance of the professors of a religion which was in so decided a minority as to its followers, he would undoubtedly answer, that one great advantage derivable from it was, that it secured the residence of a number of gentlemen of education, fit for the civil Magistracy. But that object was in a great degree defeated by the system of which he had then to give a particular instance, and by which as many as eight or ten parishes were united into one living. The design was altogether

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counteracted by the practice, and he thought he could show a return which would not a little astonish their Lordships on this subject. Oat of 2,450 parishes, so many were united, that no more than 700 Clergymen were resident in the whole country. Their Lordships would sec, that not one-third of the whole number of these gentlemen of education, who might be employed to do so much good, and to enlighten the community, were called into existence. He would also show that 1,701 parishes were consolidated into 517 unions. These, he supposed, were the Irish Consols, and that the remaining 749 were the few which were allowed to rest in single blessedness. The union of these parishes continued only during the life of the incumbent, and they could not be again united, after the lapse of his life, without the authority of the Bishop; and the Bishop who exercised that authority was obliged to give his reasons for so doing, by a report to the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, within a certain time. The union in question was not as enormous as some that he could mention; it contained six parishes, while there were others which contained twelve or thirteen, each of which might be called the magnum bonum or summum bonum of the Irish Church. In the diocess of Clonfert, for instance, according to the returns laid on their Lordships' table in 1824, there was not a single case of a parish being held separately. There was nothing but unions in that diocese, and every benefice in it was a union. In the diocese, the ancient custom of quarta pars prevailed; that is, the Bishop received the fourth part of all the tithes. And here he might say, that this custom boro out what he had advanced before—namely, that the tithes were originally divided into four parts, one being for the Bishop, one for the Church, one for the Poor, and one for the Incumbent. The Bishop in this diocese, taking this fourth part, found it more easy and advantageous to collect it from a few wealthy persons than from many who held small and divided livings, and, therefore, the Bishop had no wish to disunite the benefices. In another diocese, that of Killaloe, in 136 parishes there were but forty four shepherds. This should be called the ne plus ultra of ecclesiastical arrangement. In the diocese of Dublin there were but sixty single parishes, and ninety-seven parishes formed into twenty-five unions, though it might
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naturally be supposed, that in the metropolitan diocese there should be more Protestants than in distant places. He now came to the case in question—namely, the union of Wicklow; and he would first call their Lordships' attention to the Act of Parliament, the 7th and 8th of George 4th, by which it was enacted, that when any Archbishop or Bishop in Ireland should unite any parishes, he should report the same, with his reasons for so doing, to the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, within fourteen days; and unless such union shall be approved of by the Lord Lieutenant, it shall be void. The report which the Archbishop of Dublin made, related to the vicarage of Wicklow, to the vicarage and rectory of Drumkey, and to the vicarage of Kilpole, with their appurtenances. But first he must state, that the Archbishop of Dublin stood in the situation of Bishop of the diocese, and patron of the living of Wicklow. To that Report he had various objections to make; and he thought the best way of stating them, so that their Lordships might understand them, would be, by placing the contradiction which he had to give immediately after the assertions of the Report which he believed to be incorrect. The first contradiction, then, was, that whereas it was said in the Report, that the vicarage of Wicklow was to be united with others, he was informed that there was no such parish or vicarage as Wicklow known either to the inhabitants, or to the collector of the county cess. He laid a stress on that, because he understood that one of the main points to be urged in answer to him was, that Wicklow belonged to the Prebendary of St. Patrick's, Dublin; but the weakness of that reply would be manifest when it was made known, that the town of Wicklow stood in the two parishes of Drumkey and Kilpole. The Archbishop of Dublin said, the parishes which he united were contiguous to each other, and that the yearly income of the incumbent amounted to 787 l. from the parish of Wicklow, 63 l. from Drum-key, and 59 1. from Kilpole, making together 909 l. The contradiction to that statement was, that the demand of Archdeacon Magee, when he attended a meeting of the parishioners of the whole union, for the purpose of entering into a composition of tithes, was to a much larger amount, and the real value of these parishes to the incumbent was to be gathered from his

733
estimate. One parish, Rathnew, he estimated at 610 l.; Killiskey, 610 1.; Drum-key, 289 l.; Glanelly, 511 l.; Kilcommon, 176 l.; Kilpole, 57 1. There were some additional shillings in each item, which he had not enumerated, making the whole income from these parishes 2,255 l.; and this was independent of the tithes of two properties, in the two first parishes with the owners of which the Archdeacon was at law. If to that sum the value of the glebe land, containing eighty statute acres, was added, the annual profit might be very fairly taken at 2,500 l. He hoped the House would understand that this was no estimate made by him, or by those who opposed the union; but it was the valuation made by the Archdeacon himself, and on which the demand made by him on his parishioners, for the commutation of his tithes, was grounded. The Report then went on to state, that the whole union contained 17,200 acres, and that a great part of it was mountain, marsh, and barren heath, the population being scanty: but the contradiction to this statement alleged, that the union, according to a paper in the possession of the Archdeacon, contained 36,000 statute acres, and that it was thirteen miles in length, and from eight to nine miles wide—and that, as to the population being scanty, it was very great, especially near the town, which contained between 3,000 and 4,000 inhabitants. On the whole, the union contained not less than 13,000 inhabitants, of whom a considerable proportion were Protestants. The next assertion in the Report was, that the churches in the union of Wicklow were convenient to each other, and to every part of it; and that, from the most remote part of the parish to the centre, the distance was not more than a mile. To that the contradiction was, that a part of Drumkey, called the Three-mile Water, which was the name of a hamlet, was at least four English miles from the centre of the town of Wicklow. It was next said, that the glebe land of the union was but seven acres, three roods, and three perches; while, in fact, there were forty acres of glebe land near the town of Wicklow. The Report next charged, that the parishes of Drumkey and Kilpole were not able to support an incumbent; but that was contradicted by the valuation of the Archdeacon, who estimated them at 395 l., an income much above the average standard which the right rev. Bishop
734
struck on a former night. Their Lordships would understand, that this Report was made about a year since to the then Lord Lieutenant, Hugh, Duke of Northumberland, and he hoped their Lordships would admit, that he had brought a full and sufficient contradiction to it before them. It would appear, that within the union there were three excellent churches, and that the rectorial tithes alone amounted to 1,600 l., and with the glebe land, to 1,800 l. a year. Indeed, the Archdeacon said, he would not take less than that for them. And he put it to their Lordships, as that sum was double the amount allowed to be united by the order of the Privy Council, if it would not have been proper that the union should have been divided. The fortunate holder, he need not remind their Lordships, of all these good things, was the son of the Archbishop of Dublin, who was, in addition, Rector of St. John's, Dublin, a Prebend of Christ Church, and Archdeacon of the Diocese of Clonfert. Perhaps it might be said, that the last incumbent enjoyed, with the tithes of these parishes, another living which the present incumbent did not possess; but it should be recollected, that if the Archbishop had not given this benefice to one son, he had given it to another, and, therefore, it was still in the family. He abstained from entering into the church-yard brawls, and from a description of the quarrels between the Rector and his parishioners, when he bad them go to a place, which was not Heaven. This was for the purpose of making them pay their tithes, and he believed he did make them pay them. So that they, whatever other names they might deserve, were certainly not liable to the reproach which a Monk applied to some people of old—Pessima est gens; decimas non solvunt. They did pay their tithes. He wished to avoid other topics, in order that he might confine his charge as strictly as possible to his objection to the Archbishop's report. The defence, he understood, that would be set up was, that the vicarage of Wicklow belonged to a stall at St. Patrick's— that it was held as it were in commendam with St. Patrick's. This was excellent, and he could now more than ever understand why one good reason was worth nineteen bad ones. He would, however, ask their Lordships, no matter how completely the matter was settled by those to whom the good things fell, if the parish-

735
ioners were to go for nothing, and if there was to be no consideration for their feelings and wants? This was a union which the House would see must be disunited, and he would willingly leave the case in the hands of the Irish Government, if it should think proper to take it up. He hoped it would do so, if it were only for the honour of the Irish Church; but, if it did not, he should feel himself called upon to move an Address to the King, praying his Majesty to dissolve the Union. He now moved, "That the Report for uniting Episcopally the Parishes referred to, be laid before the House."
The Archbishop of Cashelsaid, that the Bishops were not enabled to dissolve some of these unions, because they had existed from time immemorial. The application to the Privy Council must be made before parishes could be united, and the Report in question did not refer to the parish of Wicklow, but to parishes adjacent. The tithes of the parish of Wicklow, though not called by that name, extended over a considerable district, which contained four chapelries and two churches. They altogether made up what was called the parish of Wicklow, and of the tithes, of which two-thirds were appropriated to the prebendary of Wicklow, in the parish of St. Patrick. There had certainly been a very material difference between the valuation put on this property by the right rev. Prelate and the noble Baron who made the Motion, but, when the charges to which these livings were subject were taken into consideration, and deducted, it would be found that the two estimates of their value were nearly the same. As to the small parishes alluded to, it was material for their Lordships to be informed, that, being separated from each other, and not contiguous, it was contrary to the established rule in such cases that they should be episcopally united.
Lord Farnhamfelt himself called upon imperatively to utter his sentiments on an occasion when the conduct of a most rev. Prelate was under discussion, who yielded to none on that episcopal bench for extent of learning, or for solid piety, and whose publications in the elucidation of Christian doctrine, and the grounds of our common faith, though they might form no part of the noble Baron's library who this evening believed it his duty to impeach the conduct of that most rev. Prelate, would be found to contain the ablest ar-
736
guments in favour of, and 'strongest support to, the doctrines of the Established Church. Much as he had been occasionally led to the contemplation of parliamentary exaggeration, he had never before imagined it possible that such a tissue of gross misrepresentation and unfounded assertion could have so completely disguised the real facts of a case, or have been accumulated for the purpose of creating an unfair and unfavourable impression with respect to the character of an eminently learned and distinguished ornament of his sacred profession. He did not charge the noble Baron with making those misrepresentations, or creating those unfounded aspersions; it was the noble Baron's informants he impeached. The noble Baron, like himself, must take his information from whence he could procure it. They were, therefore, at issue merely upon facts—facts which had been supplied to them; but of which they neither of them could pretend to be eye-witnesses. He wished first to state the preferments by Archdeacon Magee, which were, the prebend of Wicklow, consisting of the rectorial tithes of the four chapelries of Rathnew, Killiskey, Glanelly, and Kilcommon; this was a perfect sinecure;—the vicarage of Wicklow, the emoluments consisting in the vicarial tithes of the same chapelries; the rectory and vicarage of Drumkey, and the vicarage of Kilpole. The prebend of Wicklow might or not be held in conjunction with the other preferments but it could not be united with them into one episcopal union; and the union of the vicarage of Wicklow with the parishes of Drum-key and Kilpole was exclusively the subject of the Archbishop of Dublin's report. The whole of these preferments were held for forty years by the late Dr. Dealtry, who had been, in the latter part of his life, considerably in debt, and, a sequestration having issued, the living had been in the hands of a sequestrator. It was, perhaps, known to most noble Lords, that the sequestrator was paid for his trouble in collecting the tithes of parishes under sequestration by a percentage on the amount: he was, therefore, not likely, if required to give in a statement of the value of them, to make an under-valuation. It was considered, therefore, that nothing could be less open to objection than to consult one who had been, as sequestrator, in the receipt of the income

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of the living for several years past. It had never been the practice, on the falling in of such vacancies, for the Bishop to send a surveyor to value the property in every individual living The sequestrator was, therefore, in this case, applied to by the Archbishop, as it appeared that he could have no interest to make a representation that the tithes were really less than they were. The noble Baron had stated, that the income was imperfectly estimated, and that the Archdeacon estimated the amount as high as 2,250 l., but said, he was content to receive 1,600 l. It was said, the rectorial tithes of the Wicklow union were equal to 1,000 l. a year; the other small vicarages were taken at about 600 l. a year. In looking at the value of these tithes, it should be recollected, however, it was not all revenue, for it was subject to various encumbrances; of which one encumbrance was the percent age of the collection by the sequestrator, amounting to 10 l. percent, which, at 600 l. a year, would amount to 60 l.; there were also on them a charge for four Curates, receiving 100 l. a year each; making the total charge 460 l. a year: so that the incumbent would receive out of these parishes a clear income of 140 l. a year. This simple statement alone would overturn the whole of the misrepresentations of the noble Baron. And it was only over these vicarages that the Lord Lieutenant in Council could have any control. So far he thought he had totally disproved the statement made by the noble Baron, as respected the valuation of those vicarages. He felt, however, that, in disproving this, there was but little effected. What he deeply regretted was, that this attack upon the most rev. Prelate's conduct, with respect to Church-property, was only a development of part of a system of which the foundations were laid but too deep to bring our Church into contempt and disrepute, and finally to subdue and break down the Establishment itself. Here, fortunately, the baneful spirit evaporated in speeches; but the case was far different in Ireland, for there the same spirit was beginning to manifest itself in acts and conduct highly dangerous, and of a very unequivocal character. He had no hesitation in saying, that in Ireland there was a conspiracy against the Established Church; and that this was, in many instances, attributable to the interference of the Catholic Priests in Ireland, he had
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been furnished with documents to prove. Such practices and acts as were, described to originate with them, upon affidavits he held in his hand, must finally end in violence; and the destruction of the lawful property of the Church. That the subversion of Church property in Ireland would be followed by a similar subversion of it in England, no man of any observation could doubt; and unquestionably it would occur in both countries, unless the practices he had alluded to were stopped by the strong hand of the Government. He would proceed to read the affidavits which deposed to these facts. The party making the first affidavit was of a most respectable class in society; he should refrain from giving his name, from prudent motives, but any noble Lord might examine the affidavit if he pleased. It was well known in the neighbourhood of Kilkenny that there had been a voluntary agreement, between the clergy and the landholders to apportion their tithes under the Tithe Commutation Act. The consent of the parishioners was unanimous, and they had, until the last six months, cheerfully paid the commutation. The documents he alluded to were, doubtless, already before Government. If he misstated their effect, he, no doubt, should be corrected by the noble Secretary for the Home Department. In the parish of Grieg, in the county of Kilkenny, the rev. George Alcock had, about five years since, agreed to take 720 l. as his commutation, which even under the Tithe Commutation Act, itself a relief, would have amounted to 980 l. a year, and which was thought so inadequate by the Bishop, that he with difficulty assented to the arrangement. The parishioners were contented with the arrangement, and they and their clergyman lived on the best terms: they cheerfully paid their tithes, and he was contented with much less than his legal dues. In this state of things, a new Catholic Priest came into the parish; a clever man, and one who would not do any thing in ignorance—a relative, too, of the celebrated Doctor Doyle, bearing himself the name of Martin Doyle. Shortly after his coming, he called together a meeting of the parishioners in the Court House, on a Sunday, which, it was expressly said, was convened for the purpose of defeating Mr. Alcock in the collection of his tithes in the parish. The rev. gentleman addressed the meeting to that

739
effect, and, after making use of language highly inciting, told the numerous assemblage, that if they were not righted of this abuse of tithes, they must proceed to right themselves. On the 27th of November last, another similar meeting was announced. The rev. gentleman again addressed them in the same way, and in the same inflammatory language: he exhorted them to resist the payment of tithes if distrained, he told them to treat it with indifference—he would bail out their cattle. When the sale was advertised they should be all there, to the number of above a thousand—"And let me see," said he, "who will dare to bid for the cattle distrained—he shall be hunted through the country." To this harangue the people answered, according to the deponent, who was present on the occasion, "We will be there, and our slicks shall be there too." These persons were appointed to collect subscript ions to carry on these measures, and they all separated denouncing with threats all who should dare bid at any sale of goods distrained for tithes. Soon after, this same Mr. Doyle, hearing that the lay-impropriator of a parish about twenty miles off had distrained some cattle for his tithes, accepted a dinner there, at which the impropriator of the tithes was present. The result of the meeting was, that, on the same day that was fixed for the sale of the cattle impounded, the people were collected in the neighbourhood, under pretence of meeting for a bull-bait. The gentleman who had distrained was so far intimidated by this assemblage, that he withdrew his claim for the tithes; at least, he did not think himself able to enforce it, and the beasts were delivered up in triumph to their owners, out of the pound, by the people.
Lord Teynhamrose to order. He submitted that the. noble Lord was out of order in introducing matter wholly irrelevant to the question under consideration. Besides, it was not a fair, creditable, or honourable, course thus to impeach the character of the Catholic Clergy, who were not there to defend themselves.
Lord Farnham Lord Farnham, in resuming, said, he could not believe that he was out of order; for, if allowed, he should be enabled, he believed, to prove all these facts at the bar of the House. He would mention another case. The rev. Mr. Vigors deposed to a tumultuous meeting in his parish, where, after the parish Priest had lec-
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tured the people on their right to have their tithes reduced, he described, as a great hardship, the case of a man, against whom proceedings had been taken at law for five years' arrears of tithes. A thousand people, armed with slicks and hurlies, appeared to enforce the lecture, carrying a standard, and led on by, amongst others, a Lieutenant Woodcock late of the fourth Dragoons. The deposition of the hon. and rev. Dean Bernard stated, that a similar attempt had been made in January, 1830, at Wells, to resist the payment of his tithes. He had lowered the amount of his tithes, which was at first favourably received, but after a little while, the tumultuous assemblages which had begun in other places extended to the parish of Wells, and he could now get no tithes whatever. The whole tenor of these depositions proved that there was now in active operation a systematic conspiracy to resist the payment of tithes. Since this commotion had taken place in these districts, it was a fact that the clergy there had never received one farthing of tithes. He was satisfied that the noble Marquis (now Lord Lieutenant of Ireland) was well disposed to contribute every effort in his power to enforce the law of the land in this respect. But he would ask their Lordships, if they clearly perceived, as he did, the operation that was in process—namely, that of preventing by intimidation the collection of that species of property or income in the different parishes of Ireland—for the preventing of all bidding at a sale, when a distress for tithes had been levied, was, in effect, to prevent all chance of collecting tithe?—he would ask their Lordships if they allowed this, what was the next property which would be assailed? Would it not be that of their Lordships themselves, and would the priests not denounce the payers of rent to their landlords as they now denounced the payment of tithes to the Clergymen? The evil called loudly for a remedy, if remedy there was any. For himself he hardly knew or could conceive how the law could be altered so as effectually to reach an evil which placed itself above, all law, and defied legal process. He had read a report of a late agitating meet ins in Ireland, at which a person named Shell (not the Barrister of that name so well known), declared, that if there was not Repeal of the Union they would neither pay rent,

741
tithes, nor taxes. Let the distrainer for tithes be told, your legal process is vain; and how long would it be ere the same language would be applied to the distrainer for rent, who, if he distrain, cannot sell? Who, if this evil were suffered to take root, could tell where it might end? Who could stop it if it were permitted once to take place unpunished? This evil, now in its beginning, might alone account for the violence and outrage which had lately occurred in Ireland. If it were permitted to go on, it must end in the total uselessness, and consequent ruin, of all property in that island. The noble Lord, in conclusion, apologised for having so long intruded on their time; but he confessed he felt it a duty he owed to the Church of Ireland, when he perceived its vital interests were at stake, and its character attempted—he hoped vainly— to be impeached. At the same time that be made these observations, which he thought were justified by the occasion, he professed he was perfectly disposed to permit the documents moved for to be furnished. Indeed, he was disposed even to go into Committee upon the subject generally, being perfectly satisfied that all that he and the noble Baron were at issue upon was facts, and that the more the conduct of that reverend Prelate who was accused was inquired into the more he would be found deserving of honours.
Viscount Melbournewas inclined to go so far with the noble Lord as to presume that attempts had been made to resist the rights, and injure the interests, of the Established Chinch in Ireland; but there was so much feeling of an angry nature, so much violence and animosity, mixed up in the discussion which took place on this, and almost every subject connected with Ireland, that it particularly behoved their Lordships to enter into the consideration of such topics with great temper and moderation—so as to excite hopes that they might be able to remove the blemishes and defects visible in her condition, without exposing her to the too often experienced effects of irritation. Had he been apprised by the noble Lord that he meant to go so far into particulars, he should have endeavoured to meet the subject with more official information. It was, perhaps, true, that he had seen in the Home Office the depositions alluded to. Possibly there were departures in some of the Ca-
742
tholic Clergy from the path of conciliation and sacerdotal duty; but he must say, he had received very authentic information, that there were instances in which their conduct had been happily characterised by a different proceeding. It was true, that things assumed a very different tinge and hue from the medium through which they were represented to the eye, but they sometimes experienced the same influence from the eye itself to which they were represented. He had heard of cases in which it had been owing to the interference of the Roman Catholic Clergy that the tithe had been collected. The noble Lord had only done justice to the gallant Marquis at the head of the Irish Government for his promptitude to enforce the existing laws in Ireland, and support the rights of the Irish Church. He knew not what was the measure of redress the noble Lord would fain suggest to the Lord Lieutenant; but if he was possessed of any remedy for the evils which existed, and would only state it to that noble Lord, he might calculate with certainty on its being attended to with promptitude. As to the papers moved for, he should make no opposition to their production.
The Earl of Wicklowfelt some satisfaction in the Motion, first, because it would throw some light on the state of that Church, for which he entertained much solicitude; next, for the respect he bore to the eminent character and piety of the most reverend Prelate whose conduct was its subject; and, lastly, from somewhat of an ill-natured feeling of satisfaction, in the anticipation that the first shaft of the noble Baron's malice winged against the Irish Church, was destined to fail. He felt convinced,— it was in his mind, a matter of complete certainty, — that the high Church dignitary concerned would not have sent in a false return of the value of the different livings to the Lord Lieutenant. He had also seen the printed statement in favour of the most reverend Prelate, soon after the noble Baron had given notice of his Motion. He was glad that he had seen it, for it was highly satisfactory; and the promptitude with which it had been made out was highly creditable to the person who prepared and brought it forward. The Archbishop, however, did make inquiries. He took the estimate of Mr. Revell, a gentleman long acquainted with the Union, and the col-

743
lector of its tithes, who valued them at something above 900 l.; and he also took the opinion of Mr. Fletcher, who declared the living to be worth 1,500 l. He admitted, nevertheless, that the Archbishop, who was at the moment in a very infirm state of health, had not, perhaps, made all the inquiries which he should have made, but he believed, that no attempt at imposition had been practised by any party. It was said, that the Union should be separated; but the Privy Council had no power to do that. The Union was composed of four chapelries, each worth about 200 l. a year, and the only part of it over which the Privy Council had any power, were two small livings, worth together about 122 l., which, he contended, could not be beneficially separated from the chapelries. The noble Lord concluded by expressing his conviction, that among the many improvements at present going on in Ireland —and many were wanted still—the most important was the great change which had taken place in the conduct of the clergy of the Established Church. He believed, that there were not at the present moment, in any country of the world, a more zealous, moral, or efficient body of religious teachers, and he was satisfied that it was their most earnest endeavour, as well as their greatest pleasure, to promote the well-being and happiness of those intrusted to their care. The noble Baron (King), who had so long shown his affection for the Church of England, had, from some recent inquiries, thought it better to transfer his attention to the Church of Ireland; but he (Lord Wicklow) was satisfied that a further and better acquaintance with the subject would induce him also to abandon his course of observations with respect to it.
The Earl of Darnleywas glad, that the Motion of the noble Baron had been brought forward, as he considered it a mere preparation for the more comprehensive and extended inquiry into the state of the whole Church of Ireland, which could not he much longer delayed. The noble Earl (Wicklow) might be quite accurate when he said, that the clergymen were zealous and attentive to their duties; but what duties had they to perform, when in many cases they presided over parishes which did not contain more than one or two families of their religious persuasion? He was convinced, that an inquiry could not be much longer delayed,
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and that it was as necessary, for the peace of Ireland, to inquire into the abuses of the Church, as they had already found it to be, to inquire into the abuses of the State.
Lord Teynhamrose, merely for the purpose of stating why he had interrupted the noble Lord. The charge which had been brought against the Catholic priests was, in his opinion, most undeserved, and he could not let it go forth to the world without contradiction.
The Duke of Northumberlandsaid, as the circumstance to which the Motion referred had taken place when he was at the head of the Government in Ireland, he found himself called upon to state what share he had in the transaction. He could assure the noble Baron who had moved for the Report, that the union of these parishes had not been acceded to as a matter of course. The statements which were made to the Privy Council were considered satisfactory, otherwise the Council would not have agreed to the measure. He was so far from objecting to the Motion, that he should like to see it granted, in order to facilitate any inquiry that might be judged necessary.
Lord Kingwould not deny, that some inquiry had been made, but the evidence given rather tended to mislead than otherwise. One fact was, that the sequestrator held land in the parish, and he was not likely to raise the rate of the tithes. The noble Lord (Lord Farnham) said, this was a conspiracy against the Church, and the Catholics were mixed up with it. He could only say, that he did not believe that the Catholics had any such intention, and he was confirmed in this from a letter which he had received from a respectable Catholic gentleman, in which he says, that they had no wish to destroy just rights, or speak lightly of the Church. He (Lord King) might be called a conspirator, but, if he was a conspirator, he was a conspirator, not against the Church, but against the abuses of the Church; and if the noble Lord had alluded to him, he could only say he had mistaken his purpose. He denied that the Union could not be separated. It was an episcopal one, and, like any other, open to separation under the 7th and 8th of George 4th He believed that the defence in this case was an after-thought, and that, if the claim of the Prebendary had been defensible, it could have been stated at the

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time. A memorial on the subject would soon be presented to the Privy Council; and, therefore, he should abstain from further remarks.
Motion agreed to.

COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PORTUGAL.
Viscount Strangfordasked the noble Earl (Grey) whether it would be convenient to him that he should bring forward his Motion respecting Portugal now?
Earl Greysaid, he was then ready to go into the subject, if it met the convenience of the House.
Viscount Strangfordproceeded.—The subject, he said, which he had to bring under the consideration of their Lordships was, in his opinion, one of great importance, as it had reference to one of the oldest allies of this country. In bringing it forward he could not conceal from their Lordships, that he was also actuated by feelings of strong regard for a country in which he had passed a considerable portion of his life; and he owned he could not view without indignation a measure which he considered as treating Portugal with injustice and contempt. It might be said, that there were no parliamentary grounds for the Motion which he was about to submit, as it could have reference only to what passed in another place. He wished in the outset to meet this objection, and he did so, by resting, as a parliamentary ground, on the notoriety of the circumstances to which he referred. On many occasions, references had been made to the notoriety of circumstances, as the ground of a motion, and he need not go further back-than the last Session, when a noble and learned Lord brought forward a motion on the distress of the country, on the notoriety of that distress. It was, he thought, therefore, a sufficient ground for troubling their Lordships on the subject of our commercial relations with Portugal, that a noble Lord, holding a high situation in the Government, had intimated his intention to alter those commercial relations. This then, was matter of public notoriety; and although he had heard it argued the other evening, that the mere proposal of new taxes did not afford sufficient grounds for motions on the subject before their Lordships, he apprehended that the notoriety of which he spoke afforded a sufficient reason for calling their Lordships' attention to the
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subject of which he had given notice. It was not necessary for him to trouble their Lordships with a history of the Methuen Treaty, which gave, as their Lordships knew, certain advantages to the manufactures of this country, on their admission into Portugal, as a return for corresponding advantages given by this country in the admission of the. wines of Portugal at a lower scale of duties than the wines of other countries. He was not called upon at that time to discuss the original policy of that measure, or its modus operandi; neither did he feel it necessary to enter into the right of either country to admit, or refuse to admit, the produce of the other upon any terms it pleased. The power of doing so, and of dissolving this mutual compact was certainly open to either party, up to a certain time, but in consequence of a treaty between them, that power became limited by certain regulations and necessities for notice, which could not be neglected or broken through without a violation of faith. He trusted, therefore, that these formalities had not been disregarded, for such conduct would both tarnish the reputation of England, and be an offence to a State, incapable, perhaps, of doing herself justice. In the case of Portugal being the party violating that faith, England had the means of redressing herself; but Portugal did not possess the same means of enforcing the treaty on her part; and, therefore, the violation would be more, dishonourable on our part. He was sure, that none of their Lordships would advocate the principle, that England would be justified in doing that to Portugal which she would not do to the United States of America, or to France. Before he entered into the general question, he would say a word as to some attempts which had been formerly made to rescind this treaty. At the close of that splendid career of victories which distinguished our arms under Marl-borough, two treaties were brought under the consideration of Parliament; one a treaty of commerce—the other, the treaty of peace. By the former, the preference given to the wines of Portugal above those of France, was to. be abrogated. This new treaty was founded on what was considered a barbarous principle in the time of Queen Anne, viz. that if the people of this country got the wines and goods of France cheap, no matter how much our manufacturing interests suffered as the

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price of that cheapness, it was not wrong to protect the trade of our ancient enemy, and ruin that which we carried on so advantageously with our old ally and friend. He would not dwell upon this part of the subject; but if their Lordships referred to papers and documents of that day. they would find how strong the feeling of the country was on that question. The people took the alarm, and he believed the great grandfather of the noble Baron (King) opposite, who now took so active a part in bringing forward the peccadilloes of the Church, Lord Halifax, and the ancestor of his noble friend, (Earl Stanhope) took a very prominent part in opposition to that policy, and in support of the Methuen Treaty. Evidence was examined at the bar, and that which was produced was incontrovertible. Ministers wished then, as they appeared to wish in later times, to flatter and cajole France. They proposed to take the duties off French wines for two months, thus selling aside the Methuen Treaty, and they recommended their scheme by asserting that the wines of France were very gratifying to the palates of Englishmen. The plan, however, fell to the ground, and, as an able defender of the Methuen Treaty had said, the employment of the loom of England, and the encouragement of her domestic industry, would be found much more advantageous to her than any benefit she could derive by consuming the wines of France at a cheap rate. The statesmen of that day were illiberal and ignorant enough to contend, that no concession could conciliate France, and that it was not the policy of this country to encourage the trade of that Power. The principle upon which we went was that of national reciprocity; but how could we expect that that principle would be conceded to us by France? And if the policy of Bourbon France was not to encourage our trade, it was still less that of France in her present state, when she must feel it necessary to conciliate her numerous and powerful artisans, who made and unmade Kings, by placing every restriction upon the manufactures of England. After the failure of this first attempt to get rid of the Methuen treaty, it remained undisturbed for many years. The next attempt to alter it was made in the year 1787, when Mr. Pitt attempted to equalize the duties on the wines of the two countries, he mean France and Portugal, He would abstain from entering then into any of the argu-
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ments used by the many eminent men of that day against that proposition, though undoubtedly he had great temptations to quote arguments on the subject which were much more forcible than any that he could use. They might, however, be found in the speeches of the most distinguished men of that time, including those of that great statesman, Mr. Fox, who was most strenuous in objecting to what he called gratuitously yielding up our interests to France. If he wanted any additional arguments, they would be found in the first speech of a noble Earl (Grey), opposite, who had then given early promise of that talent which had since distinguished him in public life. He had read and re-read the speech of the noble Lord before he had ever the happiness to hear the noble Earl deliver his sentiments in that House. That speech, even from reading it, had produced conviction on his mind, and since he had heard the noble Earl, he was tempted to ask regarding it, as of an oration of old, "what would have been its effects if you had heard it.?" The influence and the majorities of Mr. Pitt, however, prevailed on that occasion, over the memorable efforts of genius and talents to which he had referred, as they did on many others, and the Methuen Treaty was suspended for a time—but it was only for a short time, for war soon broke out, and the wines and woollens of Portugal and England were placed in the same condition as before. He wished to be understood as not questioning Mr. Pitt's right to do what he did, he had a distinct right, but the policy of his conduct and his right to act as he did were very different subjects. He would now call their Lordships' attention to a negotiation which had been entered into by Mr. Canning with the government of Portugal, which he certainly referred to with reluctance, as he was himself concerned in arranging it. In that i negotiation it was insisted on by Portugal, that the Methuen Treaty, should form an article of any new treaty. Such an article was accordingly inserted, and by it the Methuen Treaty became incorporated into the new treaty, grew to be part and parcel of it, and was rendered liable to all its limitations and restrictions in respect of duration; and from that moment the right of Great Britain to deal with the Methuen Treaty as a separate instrument ceased and determined, and thenceforward she

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could only consider it as forming a portion, an article, of the new treaty in which it had merged. He would, with their Lordships' permission, read the article by which it was incorporated into the Treaty of 1810:— "It is agreed and declared that the stipulations contained in former treaties, concerning the admission of the wines of Portugal on the one hand, and the woollen cloths of Great Britain on the other, shall, for the present, remain unaltered." By the 33rd article of the Treaty of 1810, the two Powers "reserved to themselves the right, at the expiration of fifteen years, of jointly examining and revising the several articles of this treaty" —(including, of course, the one that he had just read, respecting wines and woollens)— and after making such alterations as might be necessary for the interest of their respective subjects. The 33rd article went on to state, "that at the period of the revision it should be competent to either party to suspend any stipulation that might be objected to until the discussion concerning that stipulation should be terminated, due notice being previously given to the other contracting party of such intended suspension, for the purpose of avoiding mutual inconvenience." What he said was this, that the Methuen Treaty, regarding wines and woollens, having thus become a stipulation of a new treaty, could only be suspended in the manner prescribed for its other stipulations, that is, after due notice previously given. Now he would ask, whether those formalities —indeed they were not mere formalities —he would rather ask, whether these essentials had been regularly observed? Had due notice been given of the intention of his Majesty's Government to revise those treaties. He was afraid not. He did not think these essential formalities had been observed —he did not believe that due notice even had been given to those who were interested in the proposed change. The vast amount of capital involved in this trade ought to have induced Ministers to proceed cautiously; instead of that, the course which they had pursued had thrown the trade into confusion, and threatened with ruin those who were concerned in it. This was done at the very moment, too, when this Government were, through their Consul General, insisting on the performance, by Portugal, of every stipulation that Government had entered into with us, to the
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very letter. Such was the time which Ministers had selected to make this alteration. He feared that they had acted thus without taking due care of the property of the King's subjects in that country. It was on these grounds that he called for explanation; and he particularly wished to draw the attention of Government to the vast number of merchants and traders who were interested in this question, and who had intrusted him to lay on the Table several petitions on the subject. He begged leave, on this occasion, to disclaim all intention of embarrassing the Government in the performance of its public duties by his Motion. He shared too deeply in the vast anxiety with which millions were awaiting the measures (and particularly one of the utmost importance) which Ministers had in contemplation, to embarrass them by provoking any unnecessary or uncalled-for discussion. Looking to the dangers which threatened the country, both at home and abroad, he should feel himself unworthy of his seat if he acted from any motives save those which were perfectly justifiable. But when the question was one which involved the national honour, he felt that even the respect which he felt for the considerations to which he had alluded must give way to his sense of public duty. He had, therefore, brought forward this subject, in the hope that the noble Earl would be able to satisfy him on the points to which he had called the attention of their Lordships. The noble Viscount concluded by moving—

1. "That an humble Address he presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to direct that there be laid upon the Table of this House, copies or extracts of any instructions to his Majesty's Consul General at Lisbon, dated subsequently to the 20th of November, 1830, calling upon the Portuguese Government for the strict fulfilment by them of all the commercial treaties existing between the two countries.

2. "Also, copies or extracts of any communications made by his Majesty's command to the Portuguese Government, relating to the revision or suspension of any of the stipulations contained in the Treaty of Commerce, signed at Rio de Janeiro, on the 19th of February, 1810.

3. "Also, copies of any notice or communication that may have been made to his Majesty's subjects established in Por-

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tugal, respecting the intended suspension of any part or parts of the commercial treaties between Great Britain and Portugal.

4. "Also, copies or extracts of any instructions subsequently to the 20th of November, 1830, that may have been given to the officers commanding his Majesty's ships in the Tagus, or at the Court of Portugal, for the protection of the persons and property of his Majesty's subjects established in that country."

Viscount Goderichsaid, he believed most truly, that the noble Lord did not wish to embarrass the Government by this Motion; and he agreed with him, that in the important negotiations at present carried on by this country, in a time of great difficulty, it was of the last importance for their successful result, to show that the Government had not in any instance violated the national faith. He trusted, that he should be able to show, that the Government had been guilty of no breach of faith. It was true, that we had not given Portugal notice, and the noble Lord (Strangford) said, that he hoped the Ministers would be able to satisfy him, to satisfy their Lordships, and to satisfy the country, that they had not violated any treaty, and had acted in strict conformity to the treaties that were in existence, and that Portugal had received no cause to complain of our injustice. This was what he meant to attempt. The noble Lord had stated the treaties by which we were bound; they were, first, the Treaty of Methuen, signed in 1703; and, secondly, the Treaty of February, 1810, concluded by the noble Lord himself. He would beg leave, on that occasion, to say nothing on the commercial part of the question, which it would not be very convenient for him then to discuss. He had not come prepared with documents for that purpose, and, therefore, he should confine himself to the question of good faith, and to the obligations we were under with regard to Portugal. The Treaty of 1703 had not been quite correctly quoted by the noble Lord. He had ingeniously left out that part of the Treaty on which the major part of his (Lord Goderich's) case depended. If his Lordship had read more of the treaty, he would have seen that the next sentence had a most important bearing on the whole subject; but that his Lordship had omitted. The Methuen Treaty was to this effect, and as it was not long he
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should not weary their Lordships by reading it. His Lordship accordingly read as follows: —
"His sacred royal Majesty of Portugal promises, both in his own name and that of his successors, to admit for ever hereafter, into Portugal, the woollen cloths, and the rest of the woollen manufactures of the British, as was accustomed, till they were prohibited by the law; nevertheless upon this condition: that is to say, — that her sacred royal Majesty of Great Britain shall, in her own name and that of her successors, be obliged, for ever hereafter, to admit the wines of the growth of Portugal into Britain; so that at no time, whether there shall be peace or war between the kingdoms of Great Britain and France, anything more shall be demanded for these wines by the name of custom or duty, or by whatsoever other title, directly or indirectly, whether they shall be imported into Great Britain in pipes or hogsheads, or other casks, than what shall be demanded for the like quantity or measure of French wine, deducting or abating a third part of the custom or duty."
Now, their Lordships would mark, he hoped, what followed:—
"But if, at any time, this deduction or abatement of customs, which is to be made as aforesaid, shall, in any manner, be attempted or prejudiced —
What then was to take place? Were we to give notice? No such thing. The Article went on to say,—
"It shall be just and lawful for his sacred royal Majesty of Portugal, again to prohibit the woollen cloths, and the rest of the British woollen manufactures."
That was an important provision made in the treaty, by which Portugal might right herself, should we not choose to act upon the conditions implied in the treaty. The treaty was a concession made by Portugal to England, under certain conditions, and if England did not observe the conditions, Portugal got back her rights. There was not a word about notice, and the noble Lord could not argue from that any want of good faith by our not giving notice of our intention to depart from the Treaty of Methuen. He should then proceed to show that there was no obligation to give notice imposed on us by the Treaty of 1810. That treaty began in a remarkable way, which the noble Lord had omitted. The thirty-third Article of that treaty contained a reference to a notice, but it was impossible not to perceive that the notice there required did not refer to the Methuen Treaty, but to the other treaty

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then concluded. The second article of that treaty stated, that the High Contracting Parties would proceed to a revision of all former treaties between Portugal and England, and then the parties proceeded to revise the treaties. His Lordship referred particularly to the thirty-second and thirty-third articles, which contained the allusion to the notice, and contended, that these articles related only to the treaties then revised and concluded, and not to the Methuen Treaty. The treaty was in principle perpetual, but the parties were to be allowed to revise it at the end of fifteen years. He contended, that unless the noble Lord could bring the Treaty of Methuen under the operation of that article, which said, that at the expiration of fifteen years the parties should revise the treaty —unless the noble Lord could show that by that article we were bound to give notice to Portugal of our intention to equalise the duties on French and Portuguese wines, he could not make out any breach of faith. The whole subject was one which had not been altogether withdrawn from discussion between the Government of this country, and that of Portugal. The noble Lord argued as if the Methuen Treaty had been one of unmixed advantage to this country —as if it had operated most beneficially, and been the source of reciprocal advantages, and of harmony to both countries, and as if Portugal had gone great lengths in making concessions to us, which she had denied to other Powers, and which we were bound to repay. Had the noble Lord, then, never heard of the Oporto Wine Company? Was that the first night that his Lordship had heard of its effects? He could not suppose that the noble Lord had heard of that Company for the first time that night, or of the remonstrances made against it by the British Government. It was established, he believed, in 1750, and it was, without exception, the most detestable monopoly that ever existed. It was the most injurious and the most pernicious to Portugal, and, at the same time, the most destructive to the interests of those countries whose rights it invaded. The Government of this country at that period complained of the establishment of this Company as flagrantly unjust; they declared, that by allowing it, the government of Portugal had violated all its treaties with this country. He knew that the remonstrances
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made with reference to this Company, in 1767, were not sufficient to produce any effect: and it was still in existence, doing all the mischief it could to Portugal, and those who were disposed to trade to that country, by the oppressive rules with which it fettered commerce. He denied that the Treaty of 1810 recognized the necessity of notice being given by this country when a change of duties was intended. In 1813, three years after the signature of the Treaty of 1810, and twelve years before the period arrived when the noble Lord had said notice was required to be given, the then Secretary of State caused a remonstrance to be sent to the Court of Brazil, not only with reference to the infraction of the treaty with Portugal by the Oporto Wine Company, but with respect to several other grievances. He (Viscount Goderich) was a member of the Board when these circumstances were brought before Government, and therefore he could speak the more confidently on the subject. The conduct pursued by the Portuguese government was of such a nature as fully justified the remonstrance which was then sent out. The manner in which every representation relative to the monopoly of the Oporto Wine Company was treated by the Portuguese government at length roused the indignation of Government, and the remonstrance to which he now alluded was, in consequence, drawn up. It set forth, that unless the British merchants were allowed to buy and sell when they thought proper, (which, by the way, they could not do even at the present period), without any hindrance or control on the part of the Oporto Wine Company, according to the plain meaning and intent of the treaty, that then his Majesty's Government were determined to bring into the British Parliament measures to facilitate the importation of wines from other countries, and thus prove to the world, that the Prince Regent would not suffer treaties to be violated with impunity. The last paragraph stated, that the supply of wine was unequal to the demand, and that, under existing circumstances, it would be found necessary to seek for a supply in other quarters, by which means encouragement would be given to a formidable rival of the Portuguese wine-trade. He thought this paragraph so remarkable, that he would read it. It ran thus:—
"It is idle to suppose that these were the real motives which determined the Court of

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Brazil not to put an end to this system; and that it is no longer possible for the Court of London to conceal its belief, that the views of interested individuals are opposed to the real interests of the two kingdoms; and that, if persisted in, the British Government will have recourse to that proceeding, which has been threatened —namely, to encourage a formidable rival to the wine-trade of Portugal."
What, he wished to know, was meant by "a formidable rival?" Most certainly France. It was not Spain, nor Sicily, nor Teneriffe, that was alluded to, but France. Who, he would ask, was the Minister that directed this remonstrance to be made at the Court of Brazil? It was the late Lord Londonderry —who, he was sure, was not a man to betray the honour of his country, or to stain her faith. The noble Lord durst not assert any thing to the contrary. Indeed, it was impossible that the noble Lord could harbour such a thought. The remonstrance was made, too, when the troops of that country (Portugal), united with the troops of our country, under the command of the noble Duke opposite, were planting the standard of victory on the soil of France. The country was entitled to do this. He had stated the nature of the remonstrance —he had mentioned the statesman by whom it was thought necessary, and the circumstances under which it was made; and he had only to add, that the Ambassador who made this declaration sat there, and was no other than the noble Viscount, who now made the charge against the Government for determining to take that step, which he had threatened. [Lord Strangford asked the date of the remonstrance, and was answered 1813.] It was then stated, that if the monopoly were not abated, the Government would take strong steps. It was very true, that this threat, had not been acted on, and no redress had been given by the Court of Portugal. If any redress had been afforded,— if the powers of that odious monopoly had been restricted,— then there would have been, perhaps, some grounds for the noble Lord's argument. But no such thing had been done. The demands of this Government had been resisted, and not the smallest redress had been granted with respect to the monopoly of the Oporto Wine Company. But surely, because Government forbore to do that which Ministers had, in their remonstrance, declared that this
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country had a right to do, it was not fair or proper that this forbearance should be turned into a matter of accusation against them. Whether the duties proposed to be levied on wines were right or wrong, he was not called on to argue. He had laboured only to show that there was no foundation for the charge of the noble Lord, who had imputed to the Government a violation of the national faith. He felt strongly on this subject, for he had been many years connected with public affairs without incurring such a charge; and if he were asked, he could, with a firm and good conscience, vindicate his share in the advice given to the Crown on this occasion, as not likely to tarnish the honour of the Government, the honour of the Throne, or the honour of the Country — a charge which the noble Lord had endeavoured to substantiate by inaccurately quoting some parts of the treaties, and omitting to notice the bearings of the other parts. Now that he had set him right, he was convinced that their Lordships would believe that the fair fame of the country had not been sullied in the hands of the present Ministers. In conclusion, the noble Viscount stated, that he had no objection to make to the Motion of the noble Lord, except to the last part, which related to the instructions sent to the commander of his Majesty's ships at Lisbon. It was unusual to grant such papers, and that part of the noble Lord's Motion, therefore, he must oppose. There was another part of it —that relating to the information given to British merchants — which he would not oppose; but the Return to it would be nil, for it was plain that the Government, when it was about to make financial changes, could not give warning to any of the parties who might be interested, till the changes were brought forward in a regular way.
Lord Ellenboroughwas perfectly satisfied that the noble Lord would be the last man who would knowingly consent to the violation of a treaty; and he was sure that, if what had been done, or was proposed to be done, was against the terms of a treaty, the noble Lord had erred from misapprehension, and not from intention. There was nothing more natural or proper than that the noble Lord with whom the Motion originated should bring the subject forward, as he had himself negociated a treaty with Portugal; and it was very proper, if he conceived that the proceed-

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ings of Ministers were in contravention of any of the articles of that treaty, that he should call for explanation. The noble Lord also felt a strong affection for Portugal, and therefore wished to preserve her connexion with this country, and to maintain the national faith towards her. If there were any doubts as to the construction of the words of the treaty (and the noble Lord opposite had not convinced him that there were not) which seemed to him to demand explanation, he certainly would sooner appeal to his noble friend who introduced the Motion for such information than to any other person. Looking to the words of the treaty, he did not think they had the effect which the noble Lord who spoke last had attributed to them; and he did not think that the noble Lord had acted fairly in complaining that his noble friend had not read the whole of one passage. He, however, admitted that if nothing were to be considered but the Methuen Treaty, there could be no doubt on the subject. But that was not the case. They must look to the 26th article of the Treaty of 1810, which said, "The two high contracting parties agree, that they will forthwith proceed to the revision of all former treaties subsisting between the two Crowns, for the purpose of ascertaining what stipulations contained in them are, in the present state of affairs, proper to be continued or renewed." This shewed that at the period of 1810, all former treaties had been revised, including the Methuen Treaty, which having then been incorporated in the Treaty of 1810, became subject to all its general conditions. Conceiving, therefore, that the Methuen Treaty was incorporated in the Treaty of 1810, and the terms of that treaty requiring a notice before it could be altered, it was not, in his opinion, competent for the Ministers to make any alteration without due notice. Mark the words, "It is agreed and declared by the two high contracting parties, that they shall proceed to the revision," &c. Now this having then been done, and a notice required before any other alterations could be made, as was stated in the 33rd article, a further revision could not be made without a communication being first had with the King of Portugal. It would not otherwise be a revision by the two contracting parties, but the insulated and arbitrary act of one. Then let the noble Lord look to the original treaty as well as to the translation. A word had
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been omitted in the translation which altered the meaning. As it stood, it set forth "it is agreed and declared," but the word "however" was left out. It ought to have run thus — "it was agreed, however, and declared, that the present terms of admission of Portugal wines into Great Britain, and of British woollen cloths into Portugal, shall remain unaltered." This was clearly, therefore, included in the other treaty, the articles of which could not be revised and considered without notice. In the 32nd article it was set forth, "that the present treaties were unlimited in point of duration;" and the 33rd clause stated, that "the two contracting parties reserved to themselves the right of altering and amending the treaties at the end of fifteen years." Now it was quite clear that it was unnecessary to reserve the power of altering it at the end of fifteen years, if by any former article the parties had a right to proceed to revise and alter immediately. The noble Lord had read a document drawn up eighteen years ago, in which a complaint was made of a breach of faith on the part of Portugal; and he had argued that the threat it implied, and the notice it contained, still had force, and that the Government had a right to act on it. But certainly such a thing was unknown as for a Government to take up a threat, that was thrown out eighteen years before, for the purpose of acting on it. He had no objection to that letter. The grounds on which it was written he believed were just; but he contended that it was not now competent to them to act on that letter. He thought proper notice ought to have been given to Portugal. He did not see that any harm could be caused by the delay in giving notice, for two or three weeks would be sufficient to enable our Government to set itself right with Portugal. To give notice was the more necessary, as Great Britain was a strong Power, and Portugal a weak and feeble one, and, therefore, deserving of peculiar attention in interpreting the treaty. The noble Lord seemed unwilling to enter into a discussion on the policy of the measure, but still he could not abstain from saying a few words on that point. They ought to recollect, that whatever advantage they were likely to gain by this alteration, they were placed in such a situation, that if Portugal pleased, this country might encounter a considerable disadvantage, by the withdrawal of the trade of that country.

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Woollens were, he believed, exported to the average annual amount of 300,000 l. He stated this not as a matter of extreme moment, but merely to observe, that, considering the situation of this trade, it was necessary for his Majesty's Ministers to look to the danger to which they might expose the traffic in woollens by adopting this plan. They ought not, for a supposed and contingent advantage, to hazard the loss of a sure and certain benefit. The object of the alteration, he understood, was to realize an increase of 240,000 l. a-year. Now he was, certain that such a sum never would be realized, because no importation of Cape wines would ever take place under the duty which they meant to inflict: and the total loss, with reference to that branch of the revenue, would not be less than 176,000 l. When we proposed to lay a higher duty on an increasing trade —say the wine-trade — we might be safe enough; but when we imposed an augmented duty on a decreasing trade —and such was the trade in Portuguese wines —the case was somewhat hazardous. The consumption of wines had fallen off in the last year to a considerable extent; yet, in the face of this fact, Ministers were about to raise the duty upon all but French wines. With regard to those wines, he admitted, that in consequence of the diminution of duty there might be a considerable increase of consumption; but the question was, whether it would be of an amount to compensate for the falling-off in the import of other wines, and afterwards leave any material balance in favour of the revenue. When, in 1825, the duty was diminished eighty-nine per cent, the import of French wines advanced ninety per cent; but with respect to other wines, where the same diminution of duty was made, the increased importation was only forty-two and a quarter per cent, proving that there was no possibility of increasing their consumption to the extent of French wines, by a reduction of duty. Was it probable, then, that an increase of duty at the rate of thirteen and a half per cent upon Portuguese and other wines, would not go far to counterbalance the advantages to be derived from a decrease of thirty-three per cent upon French wines, particularly when it was considered, that there had been a diminution of 800,000 gallons on the imports of the last year? The noble Lord proceeded to argue that
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in the case of a treaty between a very strong and a weak Power, it was necessary to give every little advantage to the weaker party, especially when that party was an ancient and faithful ally, and when the people rather than the government would suffer by an alteration of the treaty. He declared his anxious wish and desire that this country should do nothing to alienate the feelings of Portugal. Here Ministers were attempting to take a course which he feared would produce this effect, and without effecting any good whatever. He apprehended that the result of the alteration would not be of any material benefit to the revenue, while it brought into question the honour and good faith of the country.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he considered it his duty to the House, to the Government, and the country, when a charge was made involving the good faith of the Government and of Parliament itself (which Ministers were represented as intending to make their instrument in a violation of national honour), under such circumstances, he thought it due to their Lordships, to the country, and to the Government of which he was a member, to rebut the charges. With his noble friend who had defended the measure of his Majesty's Ministers, he would sooner cut off his right hand than be a party to any measure which could be fairly construed as in the slightest degree committing the honour of the country, or of the Crown, the good faith of Government, or of Parliament. And so far from feeling less repugnance to a breach of faith in the case of a weaker Power than in the case of a stronger, he would deem it but an addition of meanness to perfidy, should he break a treaty with Portugal which he would not break with Austria, Prussia, or France. But, it was because he saw no breach of faith in the proposition of Government — because, looking at the treaties as a lawyer, he saw no breach of the articles which they contained (and their Lordships must also, in some degree, look at the treaties in a judicial capacity)— it was upon these considerations, and acting (as he believed) according to the law of nations, and seeing not the shadow of a shade of violation of faith in the matter, that he approved of the proposition of his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and was willing to have the new arrangement of wine-duties laid be-

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fore Parliament. But first, as they were upon matter of form and notice (for the noble Lord spoke much of form and notice, although it was a question of strict right between nation and nation), he thought he should not be acting improperly if he claimed a little of that attention to form, to which noble Lords were so attached, on behalf of his Majesty's Government. Ministers were placed in rather an odd predicament by noble Lords; they were called upon now, for the second time since the opening of the Budget in the other House of Parliament, to act on rumours of what had been propounded by his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, no part of which was decided on. They were asked to discuss the Budget. This was one of the inconveniences resulting from the course taken by noble Lords —a course certainly not very orderly nor regular. Ministers were charged with violating the treaties with Portugal without due notice. Now (with all due submission to the high authority of noble Lords) he should have deemed it a more fitting occasion to take an objection to the course adopted by Ministers when something decisive was attempted —when a bill was brought in; for till then there could be no pretence of a breach of faith, however well disposed Ministers might be imagined by some noble Lords to be to commit one. The wines of Portugal could not be placed upon a level with those of France without a bill being first brought in and passed. When that bill should be brought in would be the proper time to object to the proceeding; and then noble Lords might say to Ministers,— "Have you given clue notice of the alteration to Portugal?" and the question would immediately arise, "Is such a notice due?" He denied the necessity of any notice; but supposing, for the sake of argument, that it were necessary, that an observance of good faith, and a regard for the treaty required it, how would noble Lords undertake to tell him, that during the progress of the bill due notice might not be given? If his noble friend had waited till a bill was brought in, he might perhaps have been able to complain of a want of notice; but now, by leaping in the dark,— and, to use a vulgar expression, before he came to the stile,— the noble Lord had cut from beneath his feet what he deemed his best argument against his Majesty's Government. He must apologize to his noble friend the
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Secretary of State for the Colonies (Lord Goderich) for first taking up the parts of the argument which he had so ably treated; but perhaps his noble friend had been so much occupied with the commercial part of the question, that some of the legal part had escaped his attention. He would afterwards direct himself to the economical and commercial part of the subject. What, he asked, was the essence of the Methuen Treaty?— Not that England should, at all times, give an advantage to the wines of Portugal —not that England should not make the wines of Portugal pay as high a duty as those of France; but that, so long as we thought fit to give an advantage to the wines of Portugal, so long should our woollens be admitted into Portugal; and that, so soon as England should think proper to alter this "unalterable" treaty (which, however, it was provided should be alterable) so soon were we to suffer the penalty of losing the market for our woollens in Portugal. But then there was the 26th Article of the treaty, which they were told by the noble Baron that nobody but the noble Viscount could construe. Now, if any lawyer, or anybody wearing the garb of a lawyer —or even a layman — had, in the presence of his late venerable and learned friend (the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench, the father of his noble friend who had made the assertion,) propounded so monstrous a proposition, as that no Member of Parliament was to understand a bill, except the Member who had brought it in; or that nobody could understand a treaty, except the high contracting parties that were bound by it; or the Plenipotentiaries that had concocted it; or the Ambassadors Extraordinary, or the Envoys Extraordinary, or the Secretaries of Legation, or the Clerks of Legation who had signed it — he could figure to himself the utter indignation wherewith that learned and distinguished person would have heard that proposition. But if his departed friend could be made aware that a proposition so strange, so monstrous, had been advanced by his own seed —in his own House, of which he was so distinguished an ornament —in the great Court of Appeal —the highest Court of the realm, in which the noble Members sat as Judges—in which the advancer of the doctrine was himself a Judge —he could not paint in his mind anything like the indignation of the late Lord Ellenborough, since never could he suppose circumstances

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under which that noble Lord could be induced to believe in the possibility of such a consummation. Therefore, he begged once and again, to protest against the doctrine. That the noble Lord (Strangford) was the true person to go to, to construe that treaty he did not repudiate; but he paused before he could accede to it. His only exception was —not to say he (Lord Strangford) was not the person — but simply to object to his monopoly in the construing of this article. He (Lord Brougham) claimed his fair share of it as a lawyer and a Member of the House, just as strongly and as pertinaciously as if his name had been signed at the bottom of the treaty, beside that of his noble friend. Now, in the first five-and-twenty articles there was a great change effected in the relations of the two countries, and a regular code of laws laid down, which extended over a vast surface of our commercial concerns. The twenty-sixth had reference to all former treaties, declaring what it was advisable to suppress, and what it was proper to continue. And now, what was the force of the expressions here? He did not mean to rival the noble Lord (Strangford) in understanding the right-hand side of the page —namely, the Portuguese —but still he was not altogether ignorant of it; and, therefore, when the noble Lord took a word out of that side and put it into the other— into the English (a word, of the omission of which he had complained)—he was entitled to offer an opinion. Now, he thought the admission of that word aided him. He did not object to the Portuguese interpolation; for what followed? According to the natural and ordinary functions of that word, it was opposed to what had preceded it. And admitting that this points at the Methuen Treaty, as it has been explained, what had they to read from that? Why simply, that the Portuguese wines should continue to be received at an advantage in England, and our woollen? continue to be introduced at an advantage into Portugal, and that the whole system respecting these articles should remain unaltered for the present. Well, then, the argument simply was, that so long as we chose to take the Portuguese wines, so long might we continue to have a market for our woollens; but that if we chose to give up their wines, whenever we did so, it should be on the penalty of forfeiting the introduction of our woollens into Portugal. The alterableness, it would
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be observed, was provided for by the Methuen Treaty, since it positively declared, that if we abandoned the wines, we should forfeit the introduction of our woollens. And what, then, did the twenty-sixth Article say? That this arrangement should remain unaltered; or, in other words, that, for the present, the whole Methuen Treaty should remain unaltered. And was it, he asked, no part of that treaty, that we might, if we pleased, increase the tax upon Portuguese wines, upon the penalty of thereby losing the market for our woollens. Yet the noble Lord supported the opinion that the treaty was unalterable —an opinion which no one dreamt of advancing in 1703, or afterwards, until he produced the thirty-third Article in 1810. This Article was to the effect, that the Portuguese were to have fifteen years' notice of an alteration in the arrangement (though all that was said at first was "for the present"); and, moreover, that there should be no alteration without due notice. Now, put the case as if it were not a treaty signed for the high contracting parties by their Ministers Plenipotentiary, Ambassadors, or Envoys Extraordinary, with all the solemnities belonging to a treaty —but simply as an ordinary proceeding in their Lordships' every-day life —a contract of a landlord with his tenant; and then let them see how any man would receive his tenant, or how he (Lord Brougham) representing the steward of one of their Lordships, would receive him, if he came and said, that he (the steward) was a faithless man, because, having given him his land at a rate of, say 100 l. a year, to be held from day to day, the rent to remain unaltered for the present, he had, after a lapse of twenty-one years, raised it to 120 l. How would he receive that tenant, if he came at the end of twenty-one years to accuse him of a breach of faith for having altered his rent? He might represent that twenty-one years was a long "for the present;" but still the tenant, not content with this, claimed fifteen years' notice. But was this the bargain? When the declaration was, the arrangement should be unaltered, for the present, they construed it into a period of fifteen years, although England was enabled, by the terms of the treaty itself, to abandon the Portuguese wines whenever she pleased, simply on the penalty of losing the Portuguese market for her woollens. He really was ashamed to delay their Lordships so long upon a ques-

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tion so obvious. The noble Lord who introduced this matter had earnestly declared, that the bias of his mind was not in the least to create embarrassment to the Government. His noble friend said, he would not embarrass the Government, and he did not break his promise. It was a customary thing for noble Lords and hon. Gentlemen to make such professions and promises, when they were at the same time minded to do the Government all the mischief in their power, and to occasion it all possible embarrassment; but his noble friend had been as good as his word, or, indeed, he had been a great deal better; for he did not say or do anything to embarrass the Government in the least. He believed that his noble friend, although using a customary phrase, was perfectly sincere in the declaration it embodied; and even if he originally had the intention of wandering from this pledge, his natural love of good faith overcame him, and he rigidly adhered to it, so that he did consequently sit down without embarrassing the Government in the slightest degree. He would now himself make a promise, that, like the other to which he alluded, was as often broken as made. He would not trouble their Lordships with many words. Having sat there since ten o'clock that morning, he was something in the same predicament with his noble friend. If he wished to break his promise, he was hardly capable of doing so. He could not, however, pass over what had been said by the noble Lord (Ellenborough), touching economy, and our commercial interests, and this without any notice. First, however, let him remark, that the noble Viscount (Strangford) had advised the maintenance of old arrangements, as well as a matter of policy as for the commercial advantages. And in advocating these principles himself, his noble friend had quoted the great authorities of Mr. Fox, and of the noble Earl at the head of the Government; and after expressing his great satisfaction and perfect conviction, derived from merely reading the passages he had quoted, he had adopted the language of the second orator of the world in speaking of the first, and asked "what would have been the effect on their Lordships had they heard the orator himself." "Rogatus à Rhodiis legisse fertur orationem illam egregiam, quam in Ctesiphontem contra Demosthenem dixerat: qua perlecta petitum est ab eo postridie, ut legeret illam etiam, qua erat
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contra a Demosthene pro Ctesiphonte edita: quam cum suavissima, et maxima voce legisset, admirantibus omnibus. Quanto inquit magis admiraremini, si audissetis ipsum." He could not admit that the cases were parallel. Æschines read the oration, as the story ran, but how? quam cum suavissima et maxima voce legisset; and here the parallel failed if the noble Viscount meant (and otherwise his allusion was in no wise intelligible) if you are all thunderstruck by my great exhibition: but what would it. have been if you had heard Demosthenes himself — "si audissetis ipsum?" But he (Lord Brougham) by no means acknowledged the parallel. He was neither enrapt in a trance of wonder, nor lost in a ravishment of admiration —he had neither been thunderstruck at the original oration nor overwhelmed by the quotation. With Mr. Fox and the noble Earl he did not feel himself strong enough to grapple; but he most assuredly did feel himself strong enough to grapple with the edition of them he had heard that night. He did not mean to undervalue the noble Viscount's rhetorical powers, but he must say, that his quotations from Mr. Fox, and from the speech of his noble friend, retailed, abridged, and curtailed by the noble Viscount, had not satisfied him that the preservation of the Methuen Treaty, and the ruin of the trade with France, were inestimable benefits to the country. He too, however, had opposite authorities, and could adduce, on this occasion, the testimony of Doctor Smith and Mr. Pitt — the master and the pupil. He sheltered himself under these, to escape other authorities. Doctor Smith quoted the Methuen Treaty, as an instance to shake the reverence of such treaties. He took it as one of the worst of the class, and, as such, puts it into his book. And Mr. Pitt, in 1786 (who in this matter, although not in others, was the pupil of Dr. Smith), brought in a measure to repeal the Methuen Treaty, and put the wines of France and Portugal upon a similar footing. He gained his point, after a manly struggle; his measure like other excellent measures before and since, having been opposed by the clamour of mercantile speculators. Upon that occasion, though statesmen have too frequently suffered themselves to be foiled by such a clamour, it chanced that the interests of the public — of the landowners —of the consumers —

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and of the country, were not sacrificed to the clamour of the Portugal merchants. That authority he conceived, therefore, was all in his favour, though the advantages of the commercial treaty, then concluded with France, were soon put an end to by the war. But greater than these authorities, and greater even than Plato and Socrates thrown into the scale, he had the authorities of truth and reason, and on these he would take his stand. Look at the difference between that day and the present. What was the temptation to the Methuen Treaty? Was it not the notion that the Brazil gold came over to Portugal, and that only through Portugal could we get our share of it; and, therefore, all sacrifices were to be made, to enable us, by the sale of our woollens, to draw some portion of this gold from Portugal. Now, to make this attack on the Government to-night, all the exploded doctrines of the olden time were revived — not, however, for the purpose of embarrassing the Government, for, God wot, little able to stand would be that Government, which was embarrassed by the hostile array of such doctrines —the pick and choice of the exploded errors of the worst school of commercial policy. In 1703 these arguments were weak and ludicrous enough, Heaven knew; but to have them again dragged forward to the light of day in 1831, was literally astounding, "Trim the balance of trade," said our ancestors, "whereby you can bring here the Brazil gold, which you can get alone from Portugal, and without which you can do nothing. Get the gold — never mind trade —never mind employment — never mind commerce —go to Portugal —get the Brazil gold at any sacrifice — Portugal is the only place from whence you can get this gold, and the only way in which you can get it thence, is by carrying this treaty. Conclude it, therefore, at all sacrifices —at that of common sense amongst the rest —and let your woollens be sent forth to extract this Brazil gold from Portugal." This was the argument advanced in all the contemporary histories and annals, which had been combated and overthrown, as he had stated, by Dr. Smith. Grossly inconsistent —flagitiously inconsistent with the interests of the State, and the dictates of common sense, were the doctrines whereon the treaty was supported in that day — what must they be in 1831? Unfortunate, most unfortunate were the men, who
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had to maintain these doctrines in that day; how much more unhappy and unfortunate were the men who had to maintain the same in this day —for the labourers were called upon to make bricks without straw —when Brazil no longer belonged to Portugal —when we go out at once to Brazil, carry our woollens thither, and get the gold from thence. Miserable and hapless, he repeated, were the men who, in 1703, had to maintain these arguments, but infinitely more miserable and hapless were they, who, in 1831, had the same to do, when events and changes had cut every inch of ground from under their feet. Next, as to the equalization of the wine duties, the noble Lord (Ellenborough) said, "Look well to this matter; are you not aware that the consumption of French wines is increasing, and what may not be expected if you are still more to lower the duties?" He did not know if the noble Lord had agreed with his noble friend in not wishing to embarrass the Government, but certainly, if he had made himself a party to the promise, he had most faithfully kept his word. Perhaps, like his noble friend, the noble Lord might not have been able, had he been willing —there certainly was some confusion in his own camp —amongst his own array of arguments, and, indubitably, all that he had done was, to give Government the most complete support; for if he were to select one favourite —one pet fact —if his noble friends on the opposition benches, who had formerly been Chancellors of the Exchequer, First Lords of the Treasury, and Presidents of the Board of Control, and who now, to meet premature discussions of the Budget, were compelled to cast a retrospective glance upon their labours in the other House, and endeavour to revive their financial lore, were to do so — it was impossible, when a tax was to be taken off, to select a stronger fact in favour of further reduction, than the fact, that a preceding reduction of duty had been followed by an increased consumption. In these cases it had always been the rule, to draw their arguments for the future from the experience of the past. That many persons preferred Port at present could not be denied, but he could not help thinking, cheapness had more to do with this than predilection; for undeniable it was, that the French wines were at once more palatable and more wholesome. But in all this the noble Lord (Strangford)

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suspected there might lie something of a political nature lurking below —that they wanted to curry favour, or to coax the French government, and turn our backs upon the faithful government of Portugal; and yet, let it be remembered, that in 1811, 1812, and 1813, this faithful government was the first to break faith with us, and thus, if we had so pleased it, to release us from our engagements. Now, as to France; he certainly considered, that governments ought to act openly, honourably, and sincerely, and avow manfully the principle on which they proceeded; but here, looking to this charge, that they were paying particular court to France, he saw nothing whereon to fix the slightest blame. If they proceeded upon the true principle in the measure —if they promoted the comfort and happiness of the people, and the interests of trade and commerce — if there were no breach of treaty, no error of judgment, no fault of policy —if, in improving our domestic regulations, the measure was as favourable to trade as to the interests of the community —he confessed he had not that Spartan virtue to reject it, merely because it happened to have amongst the rest, the fatal, the terrible, the never sufficiently to be reprobated tendency of consolidating the good understanding which prevailed, and, thank God, it did prevail, between France and this country. He wanted no argument but that furnished by the noble Lord, to confirm him in his approbation of the measure, and to render his position impregnable. The Methuen Treaty was entirely a political one, created and defined by mercantile politicians. Much had been said about the change of things in France since the period of that treaty, and of the difference between the situation of the world in 1703 and 1831. The Bourbon times had been highly lauded in contradistinction to those of regenerated France; but in the Bourbon times, so far as regarded good feeling and amicable disposition to this country, he must take leave to differ widely from the noble Lords. Those times might have been better for France than the present, as she was now labouring under the evils of a necessary regeneration; — they might have been more glorious for France, in the dread season of warfare —including Blenheim and Malplaquet, and a throng of other foreign triumphs;—the French people might have cast away the brightest jewel of their crown; they might have
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won a mighty name, and an illustrious character, by the labours of a series of ages, only to forfeit it with their lost princes; — they might have, in banishing their mild monarchs, blindly deprived themselves of triumphant leaders for the people in war, and wise and intelligent and beneficent rulers in peace, great generals, and skilful negociators; but he humbly ventured to submit, that the conduct of the Bourbons, in respect of the Methuen Treaty, and in the American war (he would go no lower down), proved, that whatever France and Europe might have lost by the expulsion of the Bourbons, that at least England had lost nothing by the substitution of one branch of the House of Bourbon for another; or the substitution of a constitutional for an absolute monarchy. In conclusion, he repeated the assertion, that there would be no stain left on the honour of the country by the proposed alterations.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, one would certainly imagine, by the opinions of the noble and learned Lord, that the Government had intended no breach of faith, and also from the noble and learned Lord's speech, at the same time, that Government really was embarrassed by his noble friend's motion. For no lawyer ever took more pains than the noble and learned Lord, to prove to their Lordships that his construction of the treaty was correct. He would do the justice to the Ministers of believing, that their intention was, not to commit a breach of faith; his opinion was, that they had neglected to advert to the treaty, as they had to many other things, in their anxiety to bring on questions at an early period. He agreed with the noble and learned Lord, that the Methuen Treaty was revocable under the penalty he had stated. In this the words bore him out; but when they came to the 26th Article, they found the words alluded equally to political and commercial treaties as requiring revision. Then it was, that new stipulations were made as to the article in the Methuen Treaty, by which Portugal wines were taken into this country at an advantage, and our woollens introduced into Portugal; and it was agreed, that this arrangement should, for the present, remain unaltered. But now what did the thirty-third Article do? It decidedly made a new stipulation respecting wines and woollens. According to the 33rd Article of the last Treaty, he

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maintained, that it placed the two countries in precisely the same relation as the Methuen Treaty had done; but it also compelled one to give the other notice, before the commercial duties in either were altered. It had never been asserted that his noble friend, who had brought the subject under the consideration of the House, was the sole judge of the meaning of the treaty; all that had been contended was, that as he had been the negociator of the treaty, he was no bad judge of its meaning. And what did his noble friend say? That the thirty-third article was inserted, in order to satisfy the Portuguese government that the treaty should not be put an end to, until it had been fairly reviewed. It had been allowed on the other side, that there was some doubt if notice ought not to have been given of the determination of the English Government to put an end to the treaty. Why, then, had not that notice been given? It was said, that the resolution to admit the wines of France at a reduced duty was taken, not to punish Portugal for any breach of faith, but as a measure of finance. It also came before their Lordships as a great question of political economy. He could not follow the noble Lord opposite through his calculations. His noble friend did not dispute, that the measure might effect some increase of the Revenue. What he said was, that the loss upon the Cape wines, deducted from that benefit, would render it not worth any trouble. The loss on the Spanish and on the Rhenish wines was also to be considered. As a financial measure, therefore, there was nothing in it very desirable. But not to dwell upon that, how did it stand as a commercial measure, and as a measure of political economy? Let their Lordships consider the measure as connected with Spain. The exports from this country to the whole of the Peninsula, were greater in amount than those to any other country in Europe, without exception. The exports from this country to the whole of the Peninsula, amounted to a fifth of the exports to all the various parts of Europe. And now this rising commerce was to be risked —for what? For an increase to the revenue of at most 100,000 l. We were about to sacrifice the trade with the Peninsula, which was worth annually 6,000,000 l. to the trade with France, worth only 525.000 l., or a twelfth of that amount. There was another view
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of the question, which, he confessed, appeared to him to be the most important of any; he meant the political view. He had frequently heard the noble Lord opposite maintain, that this country could not value the friendship of Portugal, and a free admission into the Tagus, too highly. In reference to Ireland especially, he remembered that a noble Baron opposite had expressed himself most strongly, with regard to the advantage of maintaining our friendly relations with Portugal. Unfortunately, the great measure which he had had the honour to propose to their Lordships two years ago, had not answered so as to produce, he would not say all the advantages which he expected from it, but all the advantages which the warmest friends of that measure expected from it. The agitation of that question was over; but, to use a vulgar expression, a new hare had been started, and it might be long before it would be run down. He wanted to know, whether during that period the friendship of Portugal, and our amicable reception in the Tagus, would not be as valuable as during the existence of that agitation which was terminated three years ago? If so, let their Lordships turn their attention to the wording of the treaty with Portugal; let them listen to his noble friend's statement of the importance attached in Portugal to the wine trade with this country. He would not discuss the question with any reference to considerations connected with the Portuguese royal family —with Don Miguel or Donna Maria. He would not attempt to embarrass his Majesty's Government by any such allusions. But leaving those considerations entirely out of the question, he maintained, that, under existing circumstances, the friendship of Portugal, and our reception in the Tagus, were of the utmost importance; and that if we exchanged these advantages for an increase in the revenue of 100,000 l. we should make a gross political blunder.
Lord Kinghad listened with no slight disturbance of his risible muscles to the funereal orations of the noble Viscount (Strangford) and the noble Duke (Wellington) opposite, over the lately-departed — no, not actually defunct, but in articulo mortis, and ever-to-be-lamented — Methuen Treaty. Of course the sorrow was most deeply felt, and had no hypocritical reference to self. Nobody said, "What will become of us? The Methuen Treaty

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is about to be repealed, and the glory of old Port, and still older prejudices, is about to depart for ever. What, in the name of the good old times, do these liberal Ministers mean to do next?" Of course the observations of the noble Duke, and the noble Lord opposite, were not at all meant to embarrass the Government. Oh, no: all they meant was, to sing a Te Deum over the Methuen Treaty; and, as at the wakes in Ireland, if any row sprung up at the funeral, it was not their fault, nor meant at all to embarrass the proceedings. After the example of the noble mourners, the next party their Lordships would have complaining of the direful consequences of abrogating the Methuen Treaty would be, the commercial interest — then the colonial —then the shipping — then the lead, if it has not complained already —then the barilla —and, last of all, the band of Gentlemen Pensioners, lamenting the good old times as never to return. "But," says the noble Lord, "recollect the amount of British capital that has been expended on the faith of the Methuen Treaty." Agreed; but was that capital, in a national point of view, well employed? Were we not, in fact, paying a monopoly price for wines, which, but for that pernicious monopoly, we should be receiving on much more mutually advantageous terms? Then they were told, that they were giving up the large trade we already possessed with Portugal, for the sake of France, with which we held but a very limited commercial intercourse. This was all very true, and he was sorry for it. But the reason was, the very mismanagement of our trading regulations, the removal of which was then the burthen of the noble Lord's complaint. Let them remove the mischievous shackles which a short-sighted jealousy had imposed upon our trade with France; and they would find that our imports and exports to and from that country, would be an annually increasing important item of our fiscal revenue.
Earl Stanhopewas not one of those who would support the noble Lord's Motion with a view to embarrass the present Government. Indeed, such a project would be nugatory under the present mechanism of the two Houses of Parliament, whose base servility was such that they would support every measure of every administration, be it of what nature it may, and they who they may, that was sub-
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mitted to their notice. The only remedy for such a corrupt constitution of Parliament was the proposed Reform measure of Ministers, which he should support, were it only to put an end to the system of obsequiousness to the will of the Minister for the time being, to which they might ascribe so many of the evils the country was labouring under. Among these evils, he ever was, and he was sure ever should be, of opinion that the return to a gold currency under the existing circumstances of the country was one of the most pernicious. The noble Earl proceeded to say, that the advantage of the intended measures of Ministers would be wholly on the side of France, who were bent on refusing to admit our goods into their markets. Let them establish a bona fide commercial reciprocity between the two countries, and he would not complain,— on the contrary, he should rejoice; but let them not have a reciprocity all on one side, and that not the British side of the intercourse. It was true, as had been alleged, that Mr. Pitt did in 1786 announce his intention to abrogate the Methuen Treaty; but it was on the ground that he should bring forward instead a much more extensive measure, under which we should enjoy much more extensive advantages. If such a measure was proposed now, he would support it; but as no such measure had been submitted to them, but on the contrary Ministers were framing one of a very different tendency, he would give his vote for the noble Lord's Motion. Indeed, had they a reformed Parliament at this moment, Ministers would not have ventured upon such a measure as their present infraction of the Methuen Treaty; but, as he said before, the only remedy, not merely for the well-being but the actual existence of our institutions, was a proper Reform in the representation of the people.
Earl Greyfelt, that at that late hour, and after the question had been so amply discussed, an apology was due to their Lordships for troubling them at all. But as his Majesty's Government were arraigned for a breach of faith, which the noble Duke opposite also characterised as a gross political blunder, he must trespass upon their attention for a very short time. He would not follow the noble Earl who had just spoken in his discussion of the question of Parliamentary Reform. On that question his opinions were well known. The manner in which those opinions were

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supported by acts would be known in a very few days, and then would come the proper opportunity to discuss the subject. The noble Earl had talked of the base servility of Parliament, and its indisposition to embarrass his Majesty's Government, of whomsoever it might be composed. The moment which the noble Earl had chosen for this remark was rather an odd one, when so few months had elapsed since the decision of Parliament had placed the noble Duke where he now was, and had raised him (Earl Grey) to his present situation. The noble Duke charged his Majesty's Government with a great error in policy. He was one of those who thought with the noble Duke, that it was highly desirable to maintain friendly relations with Portugal. But why was the present proceeding to preclude this? He by no means conceived that Portugal would sustain much injury from the relinquishment of the treaty. The addition to the duty on Port-wine was so small, that he doubted if it would materially affect the consumption in this country. The trade with Portugal had, for some time, been diminishing, in consequence of the vexatious conduct of the very Oporto Company, the existence of which was a breach of the treaty. When the treaty was put an end to, therefore, he could not see why the relations of commerce and politics should cease between the two countries. He was not prepared with documents to show the effect of the new regulations, if they should be adopted; but he believed, that the noble Duke and the noble Lord were mistaken in supposing that they would reduce the advantages of our trade with Portugal so low. In his opinion, the revenue would be increased by them considerably for the two next years, and much more thenceforth. He was persuaded that they would open a great advantage to the general commerce of the country. But the noble Duke said, that we were risking, not only our commerce with our ancient ally, but our commerce with the whole Peninsula. How, he did not know. Our communication with the Spanish ports was direct. The noble Lord said, that if the Methuen Treaty stood alone, there could be no doubt that we should be warranted in doing what we had done. The question, therefore, was, whether by the Treaty of 1810 such an alteration was made in the Methuen Treaty as deprived us of the right which by that
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Methuen Treaty we enjoyed? The Methuen Treaty remained unaltered by the subsequent treaty, to which the noble Lord referred, and we retained all the rights under it which we had before. How it had been qualified by that treaty would be best discussed when the measure came in a proper shape before them. But it had been said, that the best expounder of a treaty was the maker. The arguments, however, of his noble and learned friend upon the Woolsack were triumphantly conclusive upon this point. It was said, that the persons who concluded the Treaty of 1810 must be presumed to be the best expounders of it; but their Lordships ought to bear in mind, that upon that principle there were two expounders— namely, the Minister of Portugal and the Minister of Great Britain. Both might differ, and it was very certain that they did differ, upon its merits. Referring to the despatches of the British Minister on the negotiations carried on with the Portuguese government, concerning the treaty of 1810, he must state that, for the honour of the country, he felt ashamed of the system of British diplomacy adopted on the occasion. The course of the negotiations was one which he thought no noble Lord could sanction; yet among their Lordships, and in a person who assumed to be a chaste model of all that was pure in diplomacy was found a supporter, a defender, and a champion of this negotiation. He repeated, that a course of diplomatic proceedings of this nature deeply involved the honour of the country. He contended, that the measure which had called forth so much severe comment was no breach whatever of the Methuen Treaty. The complaints made in the first instance had never ceased, for the vexations of the Oporto Company had still gone on increasing. The time would shortly come when perhaps he should go further into the subject, as regarded its bearings on the general interests of commerce. For the present he should only contend, that his Majesty's Government had a strict right to do what it was doing, and he was prepared to prove that it would be attended with no danger whatever to our intercourse with Portugal. He had no objection whatever to grant the first three papers moved for by the noble Lord, but the fourth document he could not grant, nor indeed could it be demanded upon any ground of delicacy or propriety. It must

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be obvious to the noble Lord, that a proposition calling for copies of instructions given to the commander of his Majesty's ships in the Tagus could not and ought not to be acquiesced in.
Lord Strangfordregretted exceedingly that the noble Earl should have felt himself ashamed of the diplomacy of England, as exercised in his person. He would ask the noble Earl, what it was he really meant? All the noble Earl had said upon this point had no more to do with the diplomacy of 1810 than with any ordinary topic that came under their Lordships' consideration. It was not correct to stale that he had not done all in his power to induce the Portuguese Minister to agree to a revision of the Methuen Treaty. He could not help complaining that his noble and learned friend on the Woolsack had been all through his speech fighting against shadows, which he himself had raised. He would call upon his noble and learned friend to state what it was that he (Lord Strangford) had said in praise of the Bourbons. He had not said one word in praise of them; on the contrary, his remarks were in direct reprobation of their conduct. "My noble and learned friend," continued the noble Viscount, "ought to recollect the close friendship and intimacy that subsisted between us twenty-five years ago, when we were brother Secretaries together at this same Court of Lisbon, on which so much has been said to-night, when we lived together like Helen and Hermione; and I am not a little surprised that he should now turn round and visit with his condemnation those principles which he himself held in the days of his innocence and youth. Entertaining, however, such an opinion of his consistency, I should not be surprised in finding (should he and I live so long) that in 1857, twenty-six years hence, he supports the same opinions, with regard to the sugar-growers of the West Indies and wine-growers of Portugal, that he did in 1806.
The Lord Chancellorexplained. He did not impute to his noble friend any particular affection for the Bourbons. He had only remarked on the different light in which his noble friend looked upon the government of the Bourbons, as contrasted with the present government of France. He could not be charged with inconsistency, either upon questions of colonial or general policy, merely because he happened to feel less apprehensive now of the
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consequences which might result from the abolition of negro slavery than he had been twenty-six years ago.
Motion, with the exception stated by Earl Grey, agreed to without a division.