Sitting of 3 February 1831

MINUTES.
The SPEAKER acquainted the House that he had, agreeably to the Act of Parliament, issued his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, to issue a New Writ for the Borough of Beaumaris, in the room of Sir ROBERT WILLIAMS, deceased.
Mr. HUNT, Sir H. HARDINOR, Lord WM. RUSSELL, Mr. TENYSON, Mr. JEFFERY, and Mr. PRAED, took the Oaths and their Scats.
New Writs. For the County of Kilkenny, in the room of Lord DUNCANNON, who had accepted the office of Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests; and fur the Borough of Windsor, in the room of Sir H. VIVIAN, who had accepted the office of Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds, were moved for by Mr. ELLICK:—For Peehleshire, in the room of Sir J. MONTGOMERY, by Sir G. GLERK.
Notice was given by Mr. ELLICE, in the absence of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, that his noble friend would, on the 10th of March, move that certain Papers, relative to Windsor castle and Buckingham Palace, should he referred to a Committee of the House; that he would also move to refer certain Papers relative to the Ridcau canal to a Committee; and on the 11th of February, would move for leave to bring in a Bill, for the more effectual prevention of Smuggling:—By Mr. HUNT, that he would, on March 3rd, move for a total Repeal of the Corn Laws: — By Mr. O'BRIEN, for leave to bring in a Bill on February 8th, to provide for the aged and infirm Poor of Ireland:—By Mr. Alderman Woon, that on the 22nd instant he would move for various Returns relative to Pensions and Salaries; and would also move for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent the spreading of Canine Madness:— By Mr. G. LAMB, that he would, on the 10th of March, move for leave to bring in a Bill, to amend the Law relative to vestries in Ireland; and on the 22nd of march
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he would bring the subject of the Grand Jury Lam in Ireland under the consideration of the House.
Bills brought in. By Mr. HOBHOUSE, for the better regulation of Select Vestries, and the management of Parish Accounts throughout England and Wales.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Lord MORPETH, of all kinds of Woollen Cloth, and Woollen Yarn Baizes and Carpets, exported from the 5th of January, 1829, up to the 5th of January, 1831.
Petitions presented. For the speedy abolition of Slavery, by Sir R. FRRSGUSON, three from persons in Scotland.—By Mr. DENISON, from Godalming. For the Repeal of the Assessed Taxes, by Mr. DENISON, from Christchurch, Surrey:- By Mr. HUMR, from the parishes of St. Ann, Westminster; St. Luke; and St. Philip and Jacob, Bristol: —By Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, from the Inhabitants of the Ward of Comhill. Against the Truck System, by Mr. KENNEDY, from Ayr: —By Sir JOHN WROTTRSLEY, from the Mechanics and Shopkeepers of Wolverhampton. For Parliamentary Reform, by Lord GARLES, from the Inhabitants of the Borough of Wigton:—By Mr. JOHN CAMPBELL, from the Borough of St. Andrew's, and signed by a number of the Members of the University:— By Mr. KEMY, from Lewes. For the Repeal of the Duty on Coals, by Mr. N. CALVERT, from Hoddesdon:—By Mr. Alderman WOOD, from the Ward of Cripplegate:—By Mr. Alderman ATKINS, from the Inhabitants of Arundel. By Lord MORPETH, from the Township of Sutton, in Yorkshire, for a reduction of Ministerial Salaries, and the abolition of Slavery; and from Nunmonckton.

REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
Mr. Michael Angelo Taylorrose to present a Petition for Reform, from the inhabitants of Durham. In that city the Tight of election was in the Corporation, but there were a great number of inhabitants, not in the Corporation of that city, of great respectability and influence, who had a fair claim to vote for Representatives. The petitioners prayed that the House would do away with rotten boroughs, and diminish the expense of elections, which was now sometimes so great, that few persons could afford to stand a contest. They prayed, too, for the extension of the present limited franchise. He shared fully in the sentiments expressed in that petition, his feeling in favour of Reform being no new feeling with him—no new idea; he had been a reformer for many years. It was to him, indeed, a subject of great satisfaction to reflect, that if Reform had been granted a great many years ago—if it had been granted when Earl Grey proposed it in that House, oceans of blood and countless treasure would have been saved to the public. He hailed it as a good omen that the question of Reform at present was pressing itself on the consideration of men in all parts of the kingdom, and he trusted that the good sense of the House would be shown, by treating favourably the arguments for Reform, and by supporting the measures of Reform that might be brought in unanimously. He would not trouble the House further, reserving him-

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self for the time when the subject should come properly under discussion, when, if the House would allow him, he would address it.—Petition to be printed.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonsaid, he had several petitions to present, praying for Reform in Parliament, and he was sorry he did not see in his place his hon. friend, the member for Edinburgh, who, if he had lately visited that part of the kingdom, if he still maintained his opinion that there was no feeling in Scotland in favour of Reform, must be much surprised at what he had heard and seen. From all the information which he had received, the feeling in favour of Reform was spreading most rapidly, and was almost universal. He must say, that the meetings in Scotland had been so numerous, that Gentlemen must see, that their own private interests, if they had private interests, must give way to the public good. The feeling in Scotland was, that the landed interests, the real owners and occupiers of the land, were not sufficiently represented; and that the large population of wealthy towns were not sufficiently represented; and that feeling would, he supposed, have great weight with the House in giving the people a full and fair Representation. The first petition he would present was from the Commissioners of Supply, Justices of the Peace, and Freeholders of the County of Kircudbright. These petitioners stated, that they had not before petitioned, because they had no hopes that their petition on this subject would be attended to; but that, now there was a Ministry pledged to Reform, they had hopes that their wishes would be gratified, and they trusted to the Ministry to redeem its own pledges, and fulfil their hopes. In their hopes and in their confidence he participated. As a Representative of a Scotch County, he must say, that he was willing to see an extension of the elective franchise, but he was not willing to support any extension of that franchise which would militate against the political condition of the landed interest, particularly in Scotland. He hoped there was no plan to militate against that interest; if there was, he should oppose it. He conceived that the Representatives of Counties should be sent to Parliament by the landed interest, and any proposition of Reform which went to give that interest such a power, he would support. The petitioners also prayed for retrenchment, and they called on the
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House to reduce all salaries, and to retrench every unnecessary expense in the most unsparing manner. They considered it a great hardship, when the price of all their produce had fallen one half, that the salaries of persons in office should be continued to the full extent to which they were formerly raised. They begged the House, therefore, to institute an inquiry into the subject, and also to abolish all sinecures. They recommended, that persons who had retired from the public service should be fairly remunerated, but they prayed that the House would reduce the expenditure to the lowest point possible, consistent with justice. He cordially concurred in their prayer, but he hoped Reform would not attack the bosoms of families. He wished to see the services of all public servants properly considered, and he hoped all persons who had duties to perform would be adequately rewarded. The hon. Member concluded by presenting the petition from Kircudbright, which was read and laid on the Table. That petition, the hon. Member said, was from persons who already possessed the elective franchise, and they prayed that it might be extended to those who possessed it not. The petition he had then to present was from parties who had not the franchise, and prayed that they might have it. This petition was from the heritors and occupiers of land in the parish of Kelton. He also presented a third petition, from another part of Kircudbright, and stated, that there was no part of the country which did not share the feelings expressed in these petitions.—Laid on the Table.

MONOPOLY OF TALLOW.
Mr. Kennedypresented a Petition from certain Candle Manufacturers in Edinburgh, praying for the Repeal of the Duty on Candles.
Mr. Huntsupported the prayer of the petition. The Repeal of the Duty on Candles was a subject of very great importance to the labouring poor. He heartily concurred in the prayer of the petition, particularly as it was well known that a large commercial house in the City had monopolized all the Tallow in the country. The reason why he rose was, to state, that it was his intention to bring before the House, in a short time, the subject of that great monopoly. The House would think that proper, when the House was told, that the monopoly had raised the price of soap

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and candles to the poor man very considerably; it had almost deprived him of light by night, and almost deprived him of soap to cleanse himself, and had almost deprived him of all the benefits he derived from the use of these articles. He was sure that the House would see that nothing was more urgent than to take measures to protect the poor man. The hon. member for Westbury said, last Session, that great evils were caused by the accumulation of property in the hands of individuals. Here was an instance of it. He could assure the House, that one firm had employed 600,000 l. in purchasing tallow, and it had caused the greatest possible evil. The price of tallow now was 48 s., and there were 50,000 hogsheads in the country; last year there were only 30,000, and then the price was not above 36 s. It was not, therefore, from any want of tallow that the price had risen, but solely from the monopoly.
Mr. Warburtondid not at first think it necessary for him to make any observations, but after what had fallen from the hon. member for Preston, he could not remain silent. Although, as an individual, he might regret, that advantage was taken by a commercial house to raise the price of an article of necessity, it would have become him to have remained silent, did he not know that the price had not been raised to the extent the hon. Member said by the monopoly. There were other causes for the rise of price, and the principal of them was, he believed, not the monopoly, but the anticipation of scarcity. It was a general custom for merchants to buy largely when they anticipated a scarcity; and it was the anticipation of the scarcity, not the monopoly, which caused the rise. This was the case now, and there were many obvious causes for apprehending a scarcity. The war in Poland was an obvious cause for a rise in the price, not only of tallow, but of all the produce of that country, whether monopolised or not. There was also the prevalence of a terrible disease in these parts of Russia from which the chief supply of tallow was derived. Again, the whale fishery had been a complete failure. The house in question had probably made the purchases from anticipating the scarcity, and therefore their purchases had not caused the rise. He did not think it proper for the House to interfere with the private bargains of individuals. In the article of corn, only let
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the hon. Member recollect the obloquy which had formerly been cast on those who dealt in corn, though writers had now made it quite clear, that the corn-dealers, by this proceeding, however they might have enhanced the price to individuals for a short time, were, in reality, a sort of safety-valve against famine. They equalized the consumption through a whole season, and over large districts, and prevented an extreme rise of price before the next supply could be procured.
Petition laid on the Table.

WEST-INDIA INTEREST.
Mr. Keith Douglasrose to move for some papers, which, he understood, would be readily laid on the Table. The House would recollect, that on a petition being presented from the West-India Interest, complaining of great distress, and on a motion being made for a committee to inquire into it, his Majesty's Government thought that the question could be better examined by the Board of Trade than by a Committee of that House. The Government had accordingly undertaken to investigate the subject; and, after the investigation, to communicate to the House, at the earliest period, the resolution it had formed. The investigation had been carried to a considerable extent by the late Ministers, and it had been taken up and terminated by the present Ministers. He hoped, consequently, that the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would find it convenient to state, at an early period, the general view which the Government was disposed to take of the case, now that the investigation was completed. He would not then say more, but move for copies of all Statements, Calculations, and Explanations which had been laid before the Board of Trade relative to the West-India Interest, since May 19, 1830.
Lord Althorpwished to guard himself against its being supposed that he pledged himself to explain the views of the Government on West-India affairs at an early period. Guarding himself against that expectation, he had no objection to the Motion.
Returns ordered.

REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
Sir John Wrottesleypresented a Petition from Wolverhampton, praying for Reform in Parliament. The petition was signed, not only by those who had always been

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friendly to Reform, but also by those who had hitherto been adverse to it. The petition was signed by almost all the respectable people in the town. In the greatest part of the petition he cordially concurred; but on that part of it which required the Vote by Ballot he would not then state his opinion. When the subject came before the House, he would give it his best attention.
Mr. Littletonconfirmed the assertion of his hon. colleague, that the petition was signed by most of the respectable people of Wolverhampton, and by those who had hitherto been opposed to Reform. He knew that the greater part of those who had in that neighbourhood been inimical to Reform through their whole lives, were now to a man in favour of it.
Mr. Huntrose to present a petition from the Inhabitants of the parish of Thorne-Falcon, Somersetshire, the prayer of which, as it was short, he would read. The petitioners called upon the House to make a commutation of tithes, to lessen the taxes to the greatest degree possible, to abolish the malt duty, also to abolish all sinecures, to reduce salaries, and to reform the Parliament, by extending the franchise, and allowing the people to vote by ballot. He concurred in the petition in every part of it, but he differed from the petitioners in one thing; he thought that the petitioners had placed the cart before the horse. They had placed Reform in Parliament and Vote by Ballot last, while he thought they ought to have been placed first, for, without Parliamentary Reform and the Vote by Ballot, the petitioners would not get any of their other grievances effectually redressed. The petition was drawn up by the clergyman of the parish, who had signed it; and it was signed by almost every inhabitant of the parish. In that parish, the clergyman informed him, there had been no disturbances, and he was informed that only three persons who signed the petition could write their own names—he begged pardon of the House for the mistake—he meant, that there were only three persons who did not sign their own names. The hon. member for Kircudbright was not favourable to the Ballot, and he thought that they ought not to extend the franchise so as to affect the landed interest; but if the Reform to be proposed was calculated only to please the landed interest, it would displease the country. To such a species of Reform
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he should be opposed. What would please the landed interest would not satisfy the people. He avowed himself a Radical Reformer, and had been one since 1815— ever since the passing of the Corn-laws. He was a Radical Reformer, and he would advocate the principle, that every man ought to have a vote. He had been the advocate of voting by ballot when that was unfashionable, and he was the advocate of that opinion at present. The petition from Wolverhampton expressed an opinion in favour of the ballot, and he could tell the hon. Baronet who presented it, and the noble Lord, that all the towns of the north of England to which he proposed to give the franchise wished to have the ballot; and, unless they were granted that protection, they would rather not be cursed by elections at all.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonexplained, that the hon. Member had misunderstood him. He wished for reform and an extension of the franchise; but he wished that the Members for a County should be elected by the landed proprietors, and not by the labourers. The elections ought to be in the hands of persons of some substance, and not approach as nearly as possible to universal suffrage, like the representation of a place he could name. He was satisfied that no species of Reform could give security or stability to the institutions of the country unless property were represented.
Mr. Humewas not friendly to the principle of making property the basis of the representation. While every man was liable to be drafted for the militia and, to pay taxes, he ought to have a vote in making the laws.
Mr. Cresset Pelhamhoped his Majesty's Ministers would speedily bring forward their measure, and not have the question discussed on the presentation of petitions.
Petition to be printed.
Mr. Hunt Mr. Hunt, in presenting a Petition from a division of the town of Manchester, praying the abolition of the Corn-laws, Universal Suffrage, and Vote by Ballot, took occasion to say, that he held these concessions to be absolutely necessary, and that he fully agreed with the petitioners in the prayer that they be granted. In allusion to certain observations which fell from the hon. member for Kircudbright (Mr. Ferguson) with respect to the improper extension of the right of franchise in some of

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the boroughs of the kingdom, if the hon. Member had spoken out it would have been better, but he (Mr. Hunt) could understand him. He believed he meant the borough of Preston; but justice to his constituents compelled him to say, that this was, he believed, the very first time that Preston had been complained of. In allusion to the same subject he would add one word with respect to the conduct of his constituents during the election. In justice to them, he felt bound to declare in that place, that if any one said they misconducted themselves, or that they were hostile to his Majesty's present Government, they grossly misrepresented them. On the contrary, they felt no hostility to the men who composed his Majesty's Government, or the measures they proposed—nor did they ever feel any hostility to their late Representative (Mr. Stanley). During the whole period of the election, not one offensive word had been used towards Mr. Stanley. He had been treated like a gentleman; and no language had been used towards him which it was unfit for a gentleman to hear. With respect to the views which the petitioners entertained on the subject of the Corn-laws, and Parliamentary Reform, he must say, that he entirely agreed with them. But even if the plans of the Government did not reach the full extent of what would meet his views on the point of universal suffrage and vote by ballot, still he would not oppose them; but this he would say, that, no matter what degree of extension they might give to the right of voting, if their plan did not include vote by ballot, it would prove unsatisfactory, and it would be better for the country if they abandoned it. at. once.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonagain denied, that he expressed himself otherwise than as an advocate for Reform, but the was for a reform which must protect the landed interests, and to such a reform he had always been favourable. He must say openly, that the sort of election established at Preston did not meet, his approbation.
Petition laid on the Table.
Mr. Hume Mr. Hume, in presenting Petitions from Scotland, in favour of Reform, took occasion to advert to the declaration of his hon. friend, the member for Kircudbright, that the landed interest had been always in favour of Reform, and that he himself had presented a petition from that interest in its favour. Now, he begged to remind
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the hon. Member, that the landed interest, for the last century, had the entire control over that House, and it was their own fault, if they desired it, that they had not effected it. He believed that all our difficulties were the work of the landed interest, and he should not think them ill-used if that House repealed all the taxes? except those which pressed on the landed interest. This was, he maintained, well-deserved, but he was not disposed to retaliate. He desired nothing now but justice. The petitions he had to present were signed by a great number of the heritors and inhabitants of the different boroughs of Scotland, and some prayed for the ballot, but all for Reform. They were from Perth, Arbroath, Montrose,. Annan, Dingwall, Dysart, Forfar, Lanark, and one signed by fifty-eight of the householders of the parish of Mary-le-bone.
To be printed.
Lord Althorptook that, the earliest, opportunity, to inform the House, that his Majesty's Government would, on Tuesday, the first day of March, be prepared to submit to the consideration of the House, that plan for the improvement of the Representative System, which in their opinion was now required. He wished at the. same time to state, that it was their intention to give to the noble Lord (Lord John Russell), the Paymaster of the Forces, the task of explaining the nature and extent of the Reform which they contemplated. They had selected that noble Lord, in consequence of the deep sense they entertained of the ability and perseverance with which he had advocated an improvement of the Representative System, through the whole course of his public life. In times when the advocacy of Reform was not popular, and when, from the difference of circumstances, a partial change — even when a partial change was proposed—was considered almost hopeless, the noble Lord had perseveringly prosecuted his object; and now, when the question of Reform was more prosperous, the Government thought that he was best entitled to propose a full and efficient improvement of the Representation, who had so often failed in his most zealous attempts to procure a partial one.

CUSTOMS AND STAMP DUTIES.
Lord Althorpgave notice of his intention to, bring in bills, on the 3rd of March, for Consolidating the Customs and the Stamp

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Duties. With respect to the latter, he begged to observe, that some misunderstanding had gone abroad on the subject of his views, with reference to the Irish Stamp Duties; and it had been reported that he meant to propose the same addition of duties for Ireland which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) proposed last Session. This was a mistake. It was not his intention to make any alteration in the Stamp duties of Ireland.

REFORM.
Sir C. Wetherell Sir C. Wetherell, adverting to the statement of the noble Lord, with respect to Reform, was anxious to know whether the plan to be proposed was to be looked on as emanating directly from the Government, or from individual Members of that House? The noble Lord had told them that the task of introducing the measure was to devolve on the Paymaster of the Forces. Was the Paymaster of the Forces a member of his Majesty's Government?
Lord Althorpsaid, the hon. and learned Member must know, that the, Paymaster of the Forces was not a member of the Cabinet; but if the hon. and learned Member meant to imply that the noble Lord would not have the concurrence, one and all, of the members of the Government, in the plan he had to propose, then the learned Gentleman was completely in error. There were, however—and the learned Gentleman need not, he was sure, be told so—precedents in abundance for the course the Government pursued in this instance. There was, indeed, a remarkable one—that of Mr. Burke, who, as Paymaster of the Forces, brought forward his celebrated plan with respect to the Civil List. It was not, however, necessary to offer any precedent on the subject. Every man of common sense knew, that if the Government chose to depute any Member of the House to expound a plan for which they declared themselves responsible, that his act was, to all purposes the act of the Government; and that there could be no difficulty in understanding it as such.
Mr. Bankeswished to know if the noble Lord intended to introduce Reform, in the first instance, through the means of a bill?
Lord Althorpwas understood to reply in the affirmative.
Mr. Keith Douglassaid, his hon. friend the member for Ayr (Mr. Kennedy) had
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given notice of a Motion respecting the Representation of Scotland, and he wished to know if the noble Lord's plan of Reform embraced that kingdom?
Lord Althorpwas quite ready to answer the hon. Member's question, but he hoped the House would excuse his declining to answer any others, or to state the measures which they intended to propose. This much he would say, that the plan of his Majesty's Government was to extend to Scotland.

GALWAY FRANCHISE BILL.
Mr. Spring Ricebrought in a Bill for extending the Elective Franchise in the City of Galway.
Mr. Northexpressed his determination to oppose the Bill, which had an object very different from that which it appeared to propose. The Protestants of Galway enjoyed no higher privileges than those possessed by every Corporation in the kingdom. Was the hon. Member, then, prepared to disturb the Charter of every other Corporate town in Ireland?
Mr. Spring Ricesaid, that the Bill proposed to destroy an anomaly which existed in Galway, and no where else. It was a Bill to place the Protestants and the Catholics on an equality in election rights, and it was supported by three parts of the Corporation itself, and by the voice of the people of Ireland. No one opposed it but a small and peculiar party.
Mr. Northrepeated his statement, and announced his intention to give the House an opportunity of obtaining information on the subject by laying copies of the Charter of the City of Galway on its Table.

DISTURBED DISTRICTS.
Mr. Huntbegged to ask the noble Lord opposite, whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to lay before the House any statement with respect to the proceedings of the Commissions that had been sent into the districts in which burnings and other disturbances had taken place; because, if his Majesty's Government had no such intention, he (Mr. Hunt) would call the attention of the House to the subject.
Lord Althorpsaid, that it was not the intention of his Majesty's Government, of their own accord, to lay before the House any statement such as that to which the hon. Gentleman alluded.
Mr. Huntthen observed, that he would take an early opportunity of moving for the production by his Majesty's Government of information respecting the proceedings of the Commissions in question. He had had an opportunity of passing through several of the disturbed districts; he had seen and heard much of the proceedings of the Commissions; and he thought it was a subject of the utmost importance, and highly deserving the attention of the House and the country.

POSTMASTER-GENERAL; AND TWOPENNY POST.
Lord Althorp Lord Althorp, adverting to the Abolition of the Office of Post-master-general of Ireland, and to the consequent necessity of placing the department of the Post Office of Ireland under the control of the Postmaster-general of England, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable his Majesty to appoint a Postmaster-general for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
Mr. Humerose, not to object to the Motion, but to ask the noble Lord a question on a subject connected with the Post-office. Although numerous petitions had been presented by himself and others during the last three or four years, from persons praying to be relieved from the burthen to which, in many cases, they were subject by the regulations respecting the two-penny and three-penny post, nothing had yet been done on the subject. In some parts of the line of demarcation, the inhabitants of one side of the street paid only 2d. for their letters, while the inhabitants of the other side paid 3d. It was a matter which, in his opinion, might be set right without much difficulty. He begged to ask the noble Lord if the subject had yet attracted the notice of his Majesty's Government, and if it were intended to take any step respecting it?
Lord Althorpreplied, that he believed the subject was at present under the consideration of his noble friend to whose department it belonged; and that he hoped some means would be devised for remedying the evil, of which the hon. Gentleman complained.
Mr. Goulburnsaid, it ought to be borne in mind that the abolition of the office of Irish Postmaster-general had been avowedly resolved on by the late Government during the last year.
Lord Althorpsoon after brought in the Bill, which was read a first time, and
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ordered to be read a second time on Monday, and to be printed.
Mr. Humeasked, if it was the intention of Government to abolish the office of Postmaster-general of Scotland? He did not see why 800 l. a-year might not be saved to the public by such an abolition.
Lord Althorp (as we understood the noble Lord)observed, that there was no Postmaster-general in Scotland, but only a deputy. The whole subject, however, would, in all probability, undergo re-modelling.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. For the abolition of Negro Slavery, by Lord KBNYON, from Dissenters at Denbigh:—By the Duke of GORDON, from Portsorrel. By the Duke of RICHMOND, from the Chamber of Commerce of Galway, for an extension of the Galway Elective Franchise.
The LORD CHANCELLOR gave notice, that he would, on that day fortnight, introduce a Bill for the better Administration of Justice in the Court of Chancery, and for the better carrying into effect the Laws relative to Bankrupts.

DUTY ON COALS.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, he had to present to their Lordships a petition, similar to many others which had been laid on their Lordships' Table. It came from the town of Belfast, in the North of Ireland, and prayed for a Repeal of the Duties on Seaborne Coals. He believed that it was the wish of the Ministers of the Crown to make this country feared abroad, as well as to establish peace and prosperity at home; and to effect the latter object, it was necessary, as far as possible, to remove the existing distresses of the people. He therefore called on them to inquire into the propriety of repealing this tax. There was no impost which bore so severely on the people; and it operated with peculiar hardship on Ireland. He wished to ask the noble Earl, what was the intention of his Majesty's Government with reference to this subject?
Earl Greysaid, that before the recess a question had been put to him relative to the point adverted to by the noble Marquis. He had then stated his feeling as to the nature and principle of this tax; and his opinions with respect to its policy, and its pressure on the country, as described by the noble Marquis, were not concealed from the public. All that he now could state to the House, in answer to the noble Marquis, was, that the subject had been attentively considered by his Majesty's Government, and that, in a short time, when the whole financial situation of the country was laid before the other House of Parliament, the views of his Majesty's Ministers on this subject would be explained. Until that time arrived he begged leave to refrain from making any further disclosure.
Laid on the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Earl Greyrose to present petitions in favour of Par-
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liamentary Reform, from Northumberland, from Carrickfergus, from Bishop's Auckland, from Dumbarton, from Dingwall, from Inverary, and from several other places. The noble Karl observed, that in presenting those petitions, it could not be necessary for him to stale, that though his opinions did not go the length of acceding to every proposition contained in them, yet that, in the propriety of the general measure the petitioners prayed for— namely, Parliamentary Reform—he entirely concurred. He had stated in the present session of Parliament, that he was convinced, at a very early period of his life, and he was now, after giving the subject much consideration, of the same opinion, that very salutary effects would ensue if a constitutional reform were carried into effect. He had looked to this important question with a view to the adoption of some effectual and efficient measure: and he was happy to say, that although it had for a long period been a work of considerable difficulty, Ministers had at last succeeded in framing a measure which perfectly corresponded with the prayer of one of those petitions — a measure which would be effective, without exceeding the bounds of a just and well-advised moderation. It had received the unanimous consent of the whole Government, and would, at as early a period as possible, be submitted to the other House of Parliament, where it was proper that it should be first considered. He made the present statement at this early period of the Session, in order that their Lordships might be apprised of the intentions of Government; and having said this, he recommended those petitions to the attention and consideration of the House.—Laid on the Table.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, it was his duty to present a petition of the same nature from that district of Kent with which he was more immediately connected; and he took that opportunity of congratulating their Lordships on the circumstance of this important question having been taken up by Government. He trusted, seeing it in such hands, that the just expectations of the country would not be deceived. No man amongst their Lordships more earnestly deprecated that wild reform, denominated Radical Reform, which had universal suffrage for its basis, and which, in his opinion, would lead to anarchy and revolution, than he did;

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but he was perfectly convinced, that the period had now arrived, when the general, he might say the unanimous, feeling of the country—the feeling of those who were enemies to disorder, he meant the middle classes, amongst whom education was extensively diffused—was in favour of a measure which should embrace all the essentials of reform. Another point which earnestly demanded the attention of their Lordships was, the present situation of Ireland, and he must express a hope, that the agitation which unfortunately prevailed there would be removed by the introduction of measures for the amelioration of the state of that country. He earnestly hoped that Ministers were turning their serious attention to that subject. He deeply regretted that the healing measure which had been carried by the noble Duke opposite had not yet produced all the good which was expected from it and which, in the end, it was, he thought, calculated to effect. He hoped, too, that their Lordships would not go on, as they had done in former Sessions, talking about the state of Ireland, but doing nothing to improve it. Above all things, there ought, in his opinion, to be some permanent provision made for the poor of Ireland. Such a measure must come at last: he was quite convinced that it was necessary, and well persuaded that it was just and proper.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that with respect to the question of Reform, the statement made by his noble friend was a sufficient answer to what had fallen from the noble Earl who presented this petition; and he trusted would also fulfil the just expectations of the people. But as the noble Earl had mentioned a subject which was immediately connected with his (Lord Melbourne's) department—he meant the state of Ireland—and recommended that measures should be adopted for the amelioration of that country, it would, he hoped, be a satisfaction to the noble Earl, and to the House in general, to be informed, that, notwithstanding the difficulties which Ministers had had to contend with since their accession to Office, every attention had been given to the formation of those remedial measures which they felt to be necessary for the safety and welfare of the sister island. The noble Earl said, he trusted that Parliament would not act in this Session as it had done in preceding Sessions—that
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their Lordships would not consume time in talking merely, but that something would be done. He, however, must take leave to observe, that all these preliminary discussions which the noble Earl seemed inclined to disparage, were of great use in enlightening the public mind with respect to Ireland. Some time ago a report was laid before the House of Commons on the state of that country, and subsequently laid before their Lordships on the motion of a noble Lord;—and to all the matters contained in that report his Majesty's Government had paid particular attention. He doubted not, that by adopting certain suggestions contained in it, much good would be effected in Ireland. To that great abuse, the Grand Jury Assessment Taxation, Ministers had given their utmost attention, and, to correct the evils of the system, they had a measure in view, which must, however, originate in the other House of Parliament. As the system had been long acted upon in Ireland, it was a matter of very great difficulty to devise means by which it could be amended; but he trusted, that the measure to which he had alluded would be found to afford a sufficient remedy. A great deal of excitement existed in that country, with respect to two other measures, which had been passed seven or eight years ago—he meant the Vestry Act and the Subletting Act. With respect to the Vestry Act, it was intended to repeal the former bill, and to frame other provisions. As to the Subletting Act, a bill was prepared, retaining the principle of that Act, but embracing provisions of a sounder and better description, and divested of every thing of an objectionable character. With respect to tolls levied by Corporations, which was a burthen said to press heavily on the people of Ireland, Government did not propose to introduce any legislative measure; but the Government of Ireland intended to try at law the right which was claimed to levy many of these tolls, and relief might be thus expected. As to making a permanent provision for the poor of Ireland, it was a subject on which he was not competent to deliver an opinion; but, with respect to affording temporary employment to them, giving them relief, and removing that heavy and severe distress which pressed on the country, Ministers had a measure in contemplation which would, in a short time, be submitted to Parliament. He was anxious, for the

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sake of expediting the public business, that some of those measures should originate in that House; but. they were, with the exception of the Subletting Act, of such a nature as precluded him from taking that course. The new Subletting bill he would submit to their Lordships.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, when he heard, that extensive and numerous measures relative to Ireland were about to be brought forward by the Ministers of the Crown, he could not help fearing, considering the shortness of time during which they were in power, and the important business, foreign and domestic, to which their attention had been called, that in their great zeal they were hurrying; into plans of a crude and undigested nature, which would be fraught with serious evil to that country. The noble Lord had mentioned several measures of great importance, which, he said, the Government had already digested and prepared. The only hope he had was, that they had taken up some measures which had been entertained by their predecessors, because he was sure that there was not time for them properly to consider and concoct such measures themselves.