Sitting of 8 December 1831

MINUTES.
The House met pro formâ, and the Speaker, accompanied by the Mover and Seconder, and several members of the Privy Council, proceeded to St. James's to present the Address in answer to his Majesty's Speech.
MINUTES.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Lord TEYNHAM, the amount of Duty paid on Hops, for the year 1831, and the number of Bushels of Malt that have paid Duty in the same year.

HIS MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he begged to inform the House, that their Lordships had waited upon his Majesty with the Address of that House, to which his Majesty was pleased to return the following most gracious answer.
"My Lords:—I thank your Lordships for your loyal and dutiful Address, and I rely with just confidence upon your zealous cooperation in all measures calculated to improve the condition of my subjects, and to maintain the honour and high character of my country."
Earl Grey Earl Grey moved, that his Majesty's most gracious answer to the Address, be entered on the Journals.
Ordered accordingly.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he rose to move for certain Returns, and he did so at that early period of the Session, because it would take some
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time to prepare the documents he required. He wished to move for Returns respecting the Financial Affairs of India, and also for a Report of the Committee of the House of Commons of last Session, with a view to determine how far the commercial means of the East-India Company went to meet its expenditure, without calling upon the assistance of the mother country. He could not help taking advantage of that opportunity to say a few words with respect to the—as it appeared to him—extraordinary omission of all allusion to the affairs of our Indian possessions in the Speech from the Throne. He must infer from that omission, that it was not intended, during the present Session, to bring the question of the East-India Company's Charter before Parliament. He owned, that he was not surprised at this, when he considered that the parliamentary duties of the President of the Board of Control were so severe during the last Session, that it was physically impossible he could have discharged the ordinary duties of his office in an adequate and proper manner. He knew it might be said, that the Charter of the East-India Company did not expire until 1834; but he begged to remind their Lordships, that they were now at the commencement of the Session of 1832, and that, if they put off the consideration of this great question to the next year, they would defer it to the last moment, and be compelled to come to a hasty decision upon a question of the last importance to the community. Indeed he felt, that the opinions expressed by the noble Lords opposite, in 1813, when the question was brought forward at an advanced period of the year, were so strong, in condemnation of the postponement of the measure until the eleventh hour at that time, that he could not avoid entertaining great hopes that Government would now afford complete time for the discussion of the subject. Upon that occasion it was utterly impossible for their Lordships properly to consider the question. The bill for regulating the affairs of India was passed in the House of Commons on the 13th of July; it passed the Lords on the 16th, and received the Royal Assent on the 21st of the same month. He again said, that for these reasons he was quite satisfied that the noble Lords opposite would not fall into the course they had then so severely and properly condemned; but would now afford the amplest time to their Lordships for considering this great question in all its bearings. Since the period to which he had alluded, a Committee had

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been appointed, at which the noble Marquis opposite (the Marquis of Lansdown) was a constant attendant; and certainly the papers which were issued by it could alone be justified by the fact, that there had been a full examination of all persons connected with the affairs of India, then in England. He thought it would be advisable, that this Committee should be renewed; for it should be observed, that persons were continually returning to this country from India, and that the best information was, of course, to be derived from the last comers. If, therefore, that Committee was not renewed in time to take advantage of such evidence, he gave notice, that he would submit a motion on the subject. Not only did he insist upon the re-appointment of the Committee on this account, but also because there was an urgent necessity that at no distant period there should be a full inquiry into the financial branch of the question, for, upon the view taken by Parliament of the financial affairs of India, would depend the question as to whether the commercial means were such as to enable the Company to carry on the government without any assistance, direct or indirect, from this country. The noble Lord concluded by moving for Returns connected with the financial branch of the East-India question—for the Reports of the House of Commons, and by giving notice of motion for a Committee.
Earl Greywas free to acknowledge, that the omission of any allusion to the affairs of India, in the Speech from the Throne, was, as the noble Baron had inferred, owing to the circumstance that Ministers did not intend to bring any question relating to the important subject of Indian affairs before Parliament during the present Session. He would also acknowledge, that the noble Baron was partly correct in his statement of the amount of the duties of the President of the Board of Control. He would admit, likewise, the correctness of the noble Baron's statement, that very little consideration had been bestowed upon the subject on the renewal of the Charter in 1813. On that occasion, as the noble Baron had remarked, many noble Lords, and he acknowledged that he had been one of them, loudly exclaimed against the conduct of the then Government, in calling for so important a measure as the renewal of the East-India Company's Charter, with so little preparation; but he pledged himself, that ample time should be given for its discussion in all its bearings on the next renewal. He con-
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sidered,however, that a great part of the difficulty and responsibility attending the settlement of such an important question, in which so many interests were involved, had been obviated in consequence of the very comprehensive and diligent inquiries that had been carried on for some time past by means of Committees of both Houses of Parliament. In point of fact, nearly all the information that could be obtained, was at this moment before Parliament, embodied in the Reports of these Committees, and there was nothing to prevent both Houses coming to a decision as to the renewal of the Charter at a very short notice. For these reasons Ministers had not deemed it expedient, during the present Session, to bring forward any measure on the subject. With respect to the noble Baron's intended motion for the re-appointment of the Committee, all he could then say was, that Ministers would take the subject into early consideration, and that Parliament would find them most willing to cooperate, not only in bringing forward every information in their power, but also to assist in making inquiries in every other quarter from which additional information might be derived.
Motion agreed to.

POOR-LAWS.
The Marquis of Salisburybegged to inquire of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, whether it was his intention, or that of any other member of his Majesty's Government, to redeem the pledge given by the noble and learned Lord during the last Session, to submit some proposition to their Lordships for amending the present system of Poor-laws. He felt, that this subject was of vital importance to the country, and seeing that no allusion was made to it in his Majesty's Speech, he feared it was the intention of Ministers to overlook it for the present.
The Lord Chancellorwould not undertake to say whether it was, or was not, the intention of his Majesty's Government to call the attention of Parliament to this important subject, or, if they did, at what period of the Session it was probable they would do so; but this he would say, that if no other individual undertook the duty, he would undertake it himself, and unquestionably some measure on the subject would be brought forward by some member of his Majesty's Government.
The Marquis of Salisbury: During the present Session?
The Lord Chancellor: Yes; certainly, he meant during the present Session.

TITHES (IRELAND).
Viscount Melbournegave notice, that on Thursday next he would, pursuant to the recommendation in the Speech from the Throne, with respect to the payment of Tithes in Ireland, move for a Committee to inquire into the present Tithe-system in that country.
Lord Cloncurryhad a number of Petitions to present with respect to the payment of Tithes in Ireland, which he would take an early occasion to submit to their Lordships, but he could not forego the pleasure of taking that, the first opportunity, of stating the satisfaction he felt at the recommendation in his Majesty's most gracious Speech, on a subject so important to the best interests of Ireland. The tithe-laws, in their present operation, were partial and oppressive—they had one measure for the rich, and another for the poor, though, he admitted, that to remedy the evils would be a measure of extreme difficulty.
The Earl of Wicklow The Earl of Wicklow rose to order, and begged leave to remind the noble Baron, that it was irregular to enter into statements which were likely to provoke discussion, on giving a notice. The more regular course would be, to defer his observations until he brought forward the petitions.
Lord Cloncurrysaid, that his chief object was, to express his thankfulness to Ministers for the very fair and considerate manner in which they had introduced the subject, by a recommendation from the Throne for the Parliament to take it into consideration. The opposition to the payment of tithes was chiefly among the small tenants, and if the landlords of Ireland would pursue a more liberal policy towards their tenantry, he was sure it would go far to mitigate the evil. The clergy he had ever found moderate in their demands.
Lord Ellenboroughbegged to know, whether the prayer of the petitions intrusted to the noble Baron was merely for an inquiry into the operation of the tithe-system in Ireland?
Lord Cloncurry: The petitions simply arraigned the partial and oppressive character of the tithe-system in Ireland.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, it was most desirable, that all petitions should be referred to the Committee about to be appointed, in order that it might be clearly ascertained where the ground of complaint lay.

BELGIC NEGOTIATIONS.
The Earl of Aberdeenwished to know from the noble Earl (Grey) opposite, whether he was prepared to lay before their Lordships those documents which would throw light on the conclusion to which the representatives of the five Powers had arrived, with respect to the settlement of the question between the king of Holland, and Belgium?
Earl Greywas not then prepared to state when the documents alluded to could be laid before the House, as the treaties had not yet been ratified.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, the noble Earl well knew that the articles of that treaty had been published in every newspaper in the kingdom. In the whole course of the negotiations a considerable degree of mystery had been persevered in, which should be now cleared up. He would, however, then make no further observations on the subject, than simply to give notice, on the part of his noble friend (the Duke of Wellington), that the noble Duke would submit a motion to their Lordships on this subject, as soon as his health would permit. It was earnestly to be hoped that the health of the noble Duke would enable him to submit, as soon as possible, such a motion to their Lordships, because the affairs of the Neth rlands were arrived at such a crisis that the honour and justice—and, he would add, the character—of the country were materially implicated. Indeed, he felt this so strongly, that should the health of the noble Duke not permit him soon to resume his place in that House, he would take the responsibility of the introduction of the subject on himself, and submit a motion respecting it.

ANATOMICAL SCIENCE.
The Earl of Harrowbybegged to present a Petition to their Lordships, which he thought was entitled to their attention, coming, as it did, from able and respectable gentlemen, and couched as it was in proper and respectful terms. It was signed by the Chairman and Secretaries of the "Hunterian Society," meeting in Aldermanbury, on behalf of its several members. It set forth the great importance of the question, and that, so far back as 1828, the present Petitioners had ventured to call their Lordships' attention to it; that the state of the law loudly called for the consideration of their Lordships; that, as the law now stood, subjects could not be procured for anatomists without exposing the parties to prosecutions for misdemeanors, or prompting those parties to the commission of crimes which it was revolting to human

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nature to reflect on; that it was quite impossible for students, surgeons, and others, to attain expertness in, and the requisite qualifications for, their professions, without having opportunities to dissect human bodies; that in consequence of the state of the law, and of particular occurrences, the obtaining of subjects had become almost impossible; that the impediments thus thrown in the way of most important studies threatened to be most serious to society: and that they therefore prayed their Lordships to institute inquiries, to ascertain whether any remedy could be applied to the evils and difficulties apprehended by the petitioners. This subject was of great importance in connexion with recent events, and he therefore wished the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would inform him, whether his Majesty's Ministers contemplated the proposition of any inquiry, or the introduction of any measure on this subject?
The Lord Chancellorfelt it to be his duty to state, that the subject appeared to him to be one, the difficulty of which was equalled only by its importance. However, he thought, in the present excited state of the public mind, it would be as well to avoid all discussion on the subject, and that it would be especially wise to delay any legislative measure regarding it till that excitement had abated.
The Petition was read.
The Earl of Harrowby,in moving that the petition do lie on the Table, remarked, that in presenting this petition he considered he had only performed his duty; but that, with respect to its prayer, which was for inquiry, he had no intention of originating any motion on the subject.
Petition to lie on the Table.

POLITICAL UNIONS.
The Earl of Winchilseawas anxious to learn from the noble Earl opposite, whether Ministers intended to bring forward any measure with a view to putting down those Political Unions and illegal combinations which, according to the noble Earl, were incompatible with good government, trenched upon the honour and dignity of Parliament, and were opposed to the rights and privileges of the Crown? It was the more necessary that they should have distinct information on this head, as but one Political Union—that of Brighton—had dissolved itself, in obedience to the proclamation issued by the Government. The others had merely suspended their proceedings for the present.
Earl Grey: In answer to the noble Earl,
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I have only to say this—that believing as we do, that the authority with which the law arms the Government, is fully equal to the suppression of all Associations, be their character or title what they may, which at all affect the dignity of Parliament, and the rights and honours of the Prerogative, it is not our intention to submit to the Legislature any measure for additional powers.