Sitting of 20 August 1831

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. JAMES, from the town of Carlisle, for the abolition of the punishment of Death for crimes against Property. By Mr. BLAMIRE, to the same effect, from the Inhabitants of Brigham Greysouthen, Eaglesfield, and Cockermouth. By Mr. HODGES, from Owners and Occupiers of Land in the vicinity of Dover, against the use of Molasses in Distilleries. By Mr. BENETT, from Corsham, for the extension of the Poor Laws to Ireland. By Mr. PENDARVIS, from Truro, for an alteration of the Penal Code; and from the Merchants and Shipowners of Falmouth, for the Repeal of the duty on Marine Insurances.

MAGISTRATES OF WEXFORD.
Mr. James E. Gordon Mr. James E. Gordon moved, pursuant to notice, that there be laid on the Table a list of the Gentlemen holding the Commission of the Peace in the County of Wexford, up to the first day of the present month. He contented himself with merely moving for this Return at present, reserving to himself to take such ulterior proceedings as might appear proper with respect to the conduct of these gentlemen in relation to the Newtownbarry affair.
Sir John Newportstated, that a return of the gentlemen in the Commission of the Peace for the whole of Ireland had been lately made, and had been printed; and asked, what then, could be the use of having a particular return made for the county of Wexford? Some reason, at least, ought to be given for the Motion. He could not perceive the advantage of the itinerant legislation of the hon. Member.
Mr. James E. Gordonhad not been aware

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that a general return had been made; but even if he had been aware of it, he should still have thought it proper to make this Motion, that he might have the return up to the date of the 1st of this month. The Motion referred to a meeting of the gentlemen of Wexford, some of whom he knew to be in the Commission of the Peace, at which there was some discussion on the subject of the affair at Newtownbarry. As to his itinerant legislation, it was at least more beneficial to the country than the hon. Baronet's sedentary legislation; and he cautioned Gentlemen on that side of the House to consider what they said; for the fewer observations of that kind that were made, the better for the peace of that House. He was not ashamed of his itinerant legislation, and would always be prepared to give a good account of it.
Mr. Walkersaid, he should be prepared to undertake the defence of the Magistrates of Wexford whenever the hon. Member brought the subject to which he had alluded before the House.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, that the hon. Member might easily ascertain who were at present in the Commission of the Peace for Wexford, without calling for this Return. He, however, would take care that it should be furnished to him.
Mr. James E. Gordonsaid, in that understanding he would withdraw his Motion.—Motion withdrawn.

LORD LIEUTENANTS' (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. Stanley Mr. Stanley moved the third reading of the Irish Lord Lieutenants' Bill.
Mr. Humethought, that the third reading was not to take place to-day, and had so stated to an hon. Member who had intended to oppose the Bill.
Sir John Newportwas anxious that the discussion on this Bill should take place at an early hour on whatever day should be appointed for it, as he wished to make some observations on it, and his state of health did not permit him to attend at a very late hour. It was a measure of primary importance.
Mr. Lambertagreed that it was a measure of great importance, and therefore thought, that the sooner it was passed the better. They ought to proceed with the Bill without delay.
Lord Althorpobserved, that it was highly desirable that the Bill should pass without delay. Ample notice had been
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given that the third reading was to be moved this day.
Mr. Humeobserved, that if due notice had been given, he had no more to say.
The question put, that the Bill be now read a third time.
Sir John Newportobserved, that the object of the Bill was to create responsible officers in Ireland, of a description the best fitted for corresponding with the Government. At present there were in some counties of Ireland, three four or five governors, who gave different opinions as to the persons most proper to be placed in the Commission of the Peace, and recommended different appointments. The Lord Chancellor was, in some measure, responsible for the persons appointed to the magistracy; but the Lord Chancellor might or might not be personally connected with Ireland, and might be obliged to trust to the representations of others. In a communication with the late Lord Lieutenant, on the subject of the Irish Magistracy, the very first recommendation which he had given him was, to have Lord-lieutenants of counties appointed instead of Governors. This advice he had given, although not at all connected with the Administration. It was of the utmost importance, that some high and responsible individuals should be appointed to give proper information and advice to the Crown, instead of continuing the present system, under which different governors gave totally different accounts as to the state of their counties—one representing a county to be in a state of tranquillity, and another representing it as being at the same time in a state of disturbance. He cordially supported the Bill.
Mr. O'Connelldid not mean to trespass long on the attention of the House, in moving, that this Bill be read a third time this day six months. He thought the Bill would do harm instead of good, and protested against it. That alteration and amendment were required in the present system in Ireland was certain. It was certain that the system was bad, and worked badly. Frequent complaints were made by the people against the Magistracy; and it was clear that the Magistrates did not enjoy the confidence of the people. Great dissatisfaction with the Magistrates prevailed all over Ireland, but particularly in the northern counties. How far the complaints of the people were well founded he did not take upon himself to say; but the

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complaints, if not universal, were very numerous; and if there were no grounds for them, he could not conceive how they should have prevailed to such an extent. Another grievance was, that the communications with the Castle were carried on by interested adventurers. Admitting the badness of the present system, he felt himself bound to oppose this Bill, which, instead of being a remedy, would only aggravate the evil, and have the effect of neutralising the advantages of the Irish Reform Bill, if, with the amendments made in it, any advantages should result from it. The object was, to get good Magistrates, and he did not see how that object could be attained by giving the power of recommending to all the appointments in a county to a single individual, who would always have a party in the county. There was, for example, a resident nobleman of high character in the county of Fermanagh, who, in all probability, would be considered the most proper person to be intrusted with this responsible situation, and yet it would be a terrific prospect, in the eyes of the Catholics, if that nobleman, however excellent in many respects, should be appointed Lord-lieutenant of the county. Some similar circumstances existed in every county. A similar repugnance would be felt by the Catholics all over Ireland, and he did not see how this objection could be got over. None would be recommended for the Magistracy but partisans, while the present system afforded some compensation for its badness, by the scramble going on between the different parties for these appointments. There was nothing to prevent the Castle from receiving communications, from whatever quarter they came, and there was in the present system, some security for the propriety of the appointments, in the different representations made by the different Governors; but under this Bill, the Lord-lieutenant would have the whole power, and get whom he pleased appointed. There would be a little despotism established in each county, and the Lord-lieutenant would be the star by which all those would steer who aspired to Government patronage and favour. He had received information that the Lord-lieutenant system was far from working well in England, and that Tory Lord-lieutenants had been multiplied in a most undue degree, under the late Tory Administrations. There was at present
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in Ireland a rough kind of responsibility in the Lord Chancellor, and public opinion bore upon him in some degree; but no public opinion would bear on a Lord-lieutenant, who would always get his own partisans appointed, and partisanship was the crying evil of Ireland. Suppose that a complaint were sent to the Castle against a recommendation made by the Lord-lieutenant, that functionary would immediately write a letter, setting forth that the complaint was utterly groundless, and the production of that letter would be held a sufficient answer to any charge that might be made in this House. The great cure for the evil was, to identify the Government with the feelings and the interests of the people. It had been said, that the Ministers had been induced to propose this measure on account of the patronage it would afford them, and, no doubt, these thirty-two appointments would afford them some patronage; but he believed the Ministers to be perfectly clear of blame in this respect. They certainly were not liable to the charge of being over anxious to get possession of patronage, in order to bestow appointments on their own friends. That was not a kind of ambition with which they deserved to be taunted, for, with one or two exceptions, they appeared to prefer their opponents to their supporters, and gave the most valuable appointments to their bitterest enemies. There was a valuable Irish Bishopric—that of Derry—at present vacant, and he certainly was not particularly anxious that it should be filled up; but if it was to be filled up, why was not the Bishop of Killaloe, a most excellent Prelate, who was held in the highest estimation by his own order, and by the country in general, appointed to the See of Derry? Had the Ministers not courage enough to promote their own friends, merely lest they should be taunted with self-interestedness? It was not doing justice to themselves, nor was it fair to their friends, thus to lose the advantages which were thrown in their way. He would conclude by moving, that the Bill be read a third time that day six months.
Colonel Conollysupported the Bill. The Government experienced very great embarrassment at present from the conflicting statements made by the different Governors. He had no wish spargere in vulgum voces ambiguas, about the present Magistrates, but he was satisfied that this

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measure would be preferable to the existing system.
Mr. Jephsonsaid, the proposed system would exclude political partizans, chief constables, and other suspicious authorities, from communicating directly with the Government. It would be a great improvement upon the old customs in that respect, and therefore it should have his support.
Mr. Blackneyconceived, that any system would be better than the present partial one which prevailed in Ireland, and he would support the Bill.
Sir Robert Fergusonsupported the Bill, because he knew, that the general opinion in Ireland was in its favour.
Sir Robert Peelalso thought, that the measure would be advantageous to Ireland. It was of considerable importance to have one great responsible officer for every county, instead of trusting to several governors, and to a stipendiary police. The measure would likewise have a tendency to encourage residence on the part of great proprietors. The mere production of a letter from a Lord-lieutenant would not, in these times of searching investigation, be considered as sufficient to meet a charge made in this House. He had some doubts, but on the whole he approved of the measure.
Lord Althorpput it to the hon. and learned Member, whether he would proceed to a division on a measure which was supported by so great a majority of the Members on both sides of the House?
Lord Killeenthought it very desirable to assimilate the law in the two countries, and supported the Bill.
Mr. Lambertconsidered the Bill a most beneficial measure.
Amendment negatived without a division, and Bill read a third time and passed.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR ENGLAND—COMMITTEE—TWENTY- EIGHTH DAY.
On the Motion of Lord Althorp, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Reform of Parliament (England) Bill; Mr. Bernal in the Chair.
The Chairmansaid, the subject for the consideration of the Committee was the 18th clause:—"And be it enacted, that notwithstanding any thing herein before contained, no person shall be entitled to vote at the election of a knight of the
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shire to serve in any future Parliament in respect of any house, warehouse, or counting-house, or of any land occupied together with a house, warehouse, or counting-house, by reason of the occupation of which respectively he, or any other person, shall be entitled to vote in the election of a Member or Members to serve in Parliament for any city or town, being a county of itself, or for any other city or borough."
Lord Althorpnow proposed to amend this clause, so as to make it assume the following shape:—"And be it enacted, that notwithstanding any thing hereinbefore contained, no person shall be entitled to vote in the election of a knight or knights of the shire to serve in any future Parliament, in respect of his estate or interest as a freeholder in any house, warehouse, or counting-house, occupied by him, or in any land occupied by him together with any house, warehouse, or counting-house, if by reason of the occupation thereof he might acquire a right to vote in the election of a Member or Members for any city or borough, whether he shall or shall not have actually acquired the right to vote for such city or borough in respect thereof; and that no person shall be entitled to vote in the election of a knight or knights of the shire to serve in any future Parliament, in respect of his estate or interest as a copyholder or customary tenant, or as such lessee or assignee as aforesaid, in any house, warehouse, or counting-house, or in any land occupied together with a house, warehouse, or counting-house, if, by reason of the occupation thereof, he or any other person might acquire a right to vote in the election of a Member or Members for any city or borough, whether he or any other person shall or shall not have actually acquired the right to vote for such city or borough in respect thereof."
Mr. Hughes Hughesdeclared, that he was at a loss to understand why the original clause was to be altered in the way proposed by the noble Lord. He was the more surprised at the present alteration, because the noble Lord had informed him, in the presence of a large number of Members of the House, that the clause, as originally framed, should be allowed to stand. The wording of the clause as amended, substituting the words "might acquire a right to vote" for "shall be entitled to vote," appeared quite mysterious, and he called upon the noble Lord to give some explanation on the subject.
Lord Althorp,in explaining the object of the alteration, said, that, as the clause originally stood, a person who held a freehold of 10 l. a-year in a town, would acquire a right of voting there by the payment of his rates and taxes, but if he neglected doing so, he would be entitled to a vote for the county. Inconsistent as it was, such would have been the effect of the clause, and the object of the alteration was, that the non-payment of rates and taxes in a town, should not entitle a man to a vote for the county. Again, if a landlord let a freehold house at less than 10 l. a-year, he would be entitled to a vote for the county, but if the amount was 10 l. or more, he would be deprived of that vote. The Bill had been altered so as not in any case to deprive a freeholder of a vote for the county, except where he had acquired, for the same property, a vote for a borough. It should be borne in mind, that since the clause was first introduced, other classes of voters for the county had been created by the Bill; viz., copyholders, customary tenants, leaseholders, and now tenants-at-will. The object of the clause, as had been already stated, was, that the county constituency should not be overpowered by the inhabitants of the towns, which they would have been if all those who had the right of voting for property in towns were admitted indiscriminately to vote for the counties. He acknowledged that he had made the statement as to the intention only to leave out the words mentioned by the hon. Member, but on subsequent consideration it had been found, that if they confined themselves to that alteration, the effect would be, that the town constituency would overwhelm that of the county.
Mr. Hughes Hughessaid, that his original objection to the clause, and the notice he founded upon it, arose from this consideration. A freehold in a borough of from 2l. in value up to 10 l., would not confer upon the occupier the right of voting for the borough, while it conferred the right to vote for the county, even if the owner were non-resident; but if it amounted to 10 l. or more, the owner lost his vote for the county, because his tenant enjoyed a vote for the town; and then this absurdity would arise, that while a freeholder might have property in a borough which would entitle him to sit in that House, nevertheless he would not be qualified to vote for a Representa-
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tive for the county. The recent division of the counties added to the importance of this consideration. He most strenuously objected to the alteration in the clause, and could not help complaining of the breach of faith which had been committed, after a distinct announcement to 200 or 300 Members.
Mr. Warburtonsaid, he should have been induced to support the alteration in the clause as proposed by the noble Lord, if it were not for a late decision of the House. He did not think, that Government had been guilty of any breach of faith in proposing to alter the clause; but after the vote of the Committee, conferring on tenants-at-will the right of voting for counties, he feared that it would give so enormous an accession to the agricultural interest, that the balance of power to which the noble Lord had so often alluded, would be altogether destroyed. If the object was, to exclude town voters from any influence in counties, they had better say so at once, fairly and openly. He should, therefore, feel great difficulty in agreeing to the alteration, and would vote against it.
Mr. Frankland Lewissaid, that he felt the strongest possible objection to this clause, as proposed to be amended by the noble Lord. What would be the consequence—what would be the effect of this clause, in its present amended shape? He would particularly allude to the borough of Wenlock, which contained seventeen rural parishes, being, in fact, an extensive district, inhabited by many persons entitled to vote for the county, and what would be the consequence here? Why, that a man who possessed 400 l. or 500 l. a-year in land in this rural borough, in addition to the 10 1. house which gave him a vote for the borough in question, would be deprived of the vote for the county to which his landed property would justly entitle him. Why was that done? Was it just or fair to deprive an individual thus circumstanced of his vote for the county which he and his family might have held for generations? It should be understood, that all property above a 10 l. house, would be a mere surplusage. The proposed alteration, therefore, in such instances, gave a right to vote for a trifling qualification in a borough, and at the same time deprived the freeholder of his more important vote for the county: could the two votes be put in comparison? One was for

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the unimportant borough of Wenlock, the other for the county of Salop. It would be the same in other places. The measure introduced a number of changes, which, as in this instance, were totally uncalled for, and which would appear to have been introduced through the mere love of change. Why, he would ask, was the surplusage of property which a man might possess over and above the 10 l. house which gave him a vote in a borough, included in the value which qualified him for the possession of such vote? It was most unjust to take from the owners of lands in rural boroughs that influence which they should possess in the counties, when it was not at all necessary to add the surplus value of their property to the value of the 10 1. house which they possessed in the borough, in order to entitle them to the burgage vote. Why not make some limit to the amount of landed property which should be included with the house in a borough, as giving the owner of them a right to a vote there, and throw the remainder of the land which an individual might possess into the county, so as to give him his right to vote there also? Why not say, that the possession of a house rated at 10 l. with five acres of land, should give the vote in the borough, and permit the remainder of the land which an individual so circumstanced might hold, to give him a vote for the county, in which it was situated provided that it amounted to the requisite value? A man with 1,000 l. a-year or more in landed property, had no more influence than the occupier of a 10 l. house, and had no greater right or privilege than the renter of one of his own cottages. He thought, therefore, that what he proposed, would be only dealing fairly with the owners of land in rural boroughs, and he would as an amendment upon this amendment, propose, that after the word "land" in the amendment of the noble Lord, the words "not exceeding five acres" should be inserted.
Lord Althorpsaid, that the proposition which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman was quite inadmissible. The hardship as to a man possessing 500 acres of land over and above the 10 l. house which gave him a right to a vote in a borough might as well be applied to houses as to land; and it might be asked, why a man holding a house worth 500 l. or 1,000 l. should only have a vote for it as a 10 l. house, and should not have any more
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votes for it on account of its surplus value beyond the amount of 10 l. The right hon. Gentleman might say, that it was hard to deprive the freeholders in Wenlock of their right to vote at the election for the county of Salop, but was it not quite as hard to deprive the freeholders of Manchester of their votes for the county of Lancaster? If such freeholders would be deprived, by the operation of this Bill, of these votes, other votes were given to them to which they had not hitherto possessed a right. It certainly was the opinion of his Majesty's Ministers, that freeholders in borough towns should not be allowed to come in and overpower the constituency of the counties in which such boroughs were situated. It was with that view principally, that this clause had been framed. It should be recollected, however, that there would be many towns still which would not be borough towns, and that the owners of property, and the residents in those towns, would have the right to vote, as they ought to have, for the counties, as well as the tenants-at-will and the farmers who would possess that right under the amendment of the noble Marquis opposite, which had been carried on a former evening. By that proposition, which the noble Marquis carried on a former evening, the landed interest gained considerably more than they would lose by allowing the freeholders in those towns which were not borough towns, the right of voting for the county. If, however, the amendment now proposed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite should be carried, and all the voters in all the great towns to which the right of Representation was extended should be let in on the countries, that would quite alter the balance the other way, and the landed interest would lose considerably too much.
The Chairmanstated, that the question now was, that the words "not exceeding five acres" be inserted after the word "land," in the original amendment.
Mr. C. W. Wynndid not object to the principle of the Amendment, but was rather inclined to think, that it was inexpedient to deprive the owners of large agricultural property of votes for the county, because their property happened to be situated within the limits of a borough. In the cases of non-resident landed proprietors in such boroughs, he wished to know what would be their right of voting under the Bill? They could not vote in the borough

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because they were not householders there, and their freeholds being situated within the limits of a borough would prevent them from obtaining the county franchise.
Lord Althorpreferred his right hon. friend to the clause which had already been read by the Chairman, and by which he would perceive, that a person with property in the situation described, would not be affected by its operation.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsaid, copyholders in boroughs ought to be entitled to vote as well as freeholders; they were, to all intents and purposes, in the same situation, and were equally as well entitled to the same privilege as persons of their description who were to have votes for counties. The clause would create much confusion in county elections, as so many rights were undetermined. In Leominster, for instance, several hundred freeholders would be taken from the county constituency, and some of them were considerable freeholders. The great objection to the clause was, that it admitted small freeholders and excluded large copyholders. He could not conceive, that his noble friend had answered the objection he had made as to the nonresident freeholders, to whose disfranchisement he strongly objected. Let him, however, be understood, he had no objection to the principle of giving Representatives to large towns, but he thought the clause was not correctly worded, and would be liable to various interpretations.
Sir George Clerkwas of opinion, that the original clause, as it stood in the Bill, was far preferable to the amendment which had been proposed by the noble Lord. Why had they not adopted the principle which the Scotch Reform Bill adopted on this point? It was much more simple and equitable than the one upon which this clause was framed. By the Scotch Bill it was enacted, that the owners of any property whatever in a borough from which they derived a right to vote for that borough, should not derive a right from the same property to a vote for the county. It was stated in the Bill, that copyholders ought to enjoy the elective franchise, but yet they were not allowed it in cities. On one hand a vote was given to a person just above the condition of a pauper, and on the other, large landowners were prevented from voting. It was said to be immaterial where the elector voted, so that he had the privilege, therefore persons were taken from the
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county constituency, and placed in boroughs, and the same was, in many instances, reversed, to the destruction of all old habits, interests, and connexions. The operation of the clause would be more extensive and objectionable than the framers of it imagined, and he should therefore support the Amendment.
Lord Miltonsaid, that he entered fully and altogether into the objections which the hon. member for Oxford had started to this clause. It was a clause which appeared to him to proceed upon the falsest political view possible—namely, upon the separation instead of the political union and identification of the various classes of the community. It was founded on the principle of dividing the country into two divisions, opposed to each other, instead of considering it as one general community; and it proceeded upon the assumption, than which none could be more false, that the nation at large was composed of discordant, instead of being constituted of concordant, interests. How would it operate in Wiltshire for instance? That county would, in all probability, be divided in such a manner, that in the northern district there would be six boroughs, exclusive of Cricklade; all of which, with the exception of Devizes, would require a considerable portion of adjacent country to be added to them. There would, therefore, be seven districts cut off from this half of the county, and this would, of course, abstract a large part of the county constituency, who, as they would be taken from the vicinity of towns, might be considered as about the most respectable and intelligent of the whole body. In the pursuit of a great national object, the rights of some private individuals must be affected, but as little disregard of these as possible should be exhibited. If they looked at the case of Chippenham, which was to lose one of its Members, they would find, that the owner of a house there had hitherto held the right of voting for the Members of the borough and for the county; he had, in fact, four votes; but how would this clause operate upon him? He would be deprived of his two county votes and one of his borough votes. This was unjust, unnecessary, and undeserved. His objections to the clause were not to be overcome. Persons removed from the county to the town, and returned again at their convenience, shewing, in fact, that the interest of town and county

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was the same. It was absurd to attempt to separate their interests, and he believed there was no fear that the town population could overpower the county constituency. He was sure that was not the case in the West Riding of Yorkshire, not with standing his hon. friend had asserted the contrary. He wished the various classes of persons to meet, and it would contribute very much to the advantage of both town and country, that they should have the means of acting, and be mixed up together at common county meetings. He was satisfied, on the principle that a Member of a great county, had more general, although less private influence, that most persons would prefer having votes for two county Members, to a vote for one borough Member. That, however, was only a minor objection to the clause, the main one being the separation of interests which it contemplated, and was calculated to cause. People, in general, were prone to consider themselves, and imagine, that different classes had different interests, but the House ought to set itself in opposition to such opinions, instead of encouraging them. "On these grounds," continued the noble Lord, "I feel the strongest possible objection to this clause. Wise as this measure that has been brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers is, in its principle, it does appear to me that it should have been in its details bottomed more upon ancient foundations. I admire the principle and the general character of this measure of Reform. I admire its boldness, too; but I must say, at the same time, that many of the principles of the details of it have not been based, as they ought to have been, upon the ancient institutions of the country. It should have been so founded, instead of trying to make a balance between the trading and commercial interests on the one side, and the landed interest on the other—instead of trying an experiment, the success of which is obviously impossible, for no ingenuity will be sufficient to render that balance so nice as not to excite dissatisfaction on the one side or the other. The noble Marquis who brought forward the amendment which was carried the other evening, said, he did so because the landed interest had not been sufficiently attended to in this Bill. Is it not possible that other interests, as well as the landed interest, may feel dissatisfied? I wish that every freeholder of the ancient county court
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should continue to possess his right to vote for the county, and upon this ground that the ancient principle of the county Representation was, that real property should be the basis of it, and that personal property should be represented elsewhere. I do not think, that it is a very wise thing to teach the people that the institutions of the country are but as of yesterday. I do not think it is proper to tell the freeholder, to whom the right of voting has been handed down during the course of six centuries—I do not think it is just or proper to tell him, that he can be deprived of that right by an Act of Parliament. We are come, Sir, to that part of the Bill at which I must take my stand. I voted for the disfranchisement of all the boroughs. I voted for that disfranchisement con amore. But, Sir, I will not vote for the partial disfranchisement of any freeholder in England. I will not vote for the partial disfranchisement of any freeholder, whether that freeholder be in Leeds, in Chippenham, or in Truro; whether he reside in Yorkshire, in Cornwall, or in Wiltshire. I stand up for the rights of all those freeholders who are all interested in the preservation of those rights which they have, through a series of centuries, derived from the lesser barons, who, with those of a higher grade, in a former period, vindicated the liberties of this country, and their descendants possess an equal claim to those rights and privileges for which our forefathers in common contended. I shall therefore not vote for the disfranchisement of any bonâ fide freeholder in England. In conclusion, I beg to say, that I object to the clause now under consideration, because I look upon it as a clause of injustice. I oppose it because I look upon it as a clause destitute of political wisdom—as a clause which goes to separate, instead of to unite, the different classes of the community—which teaches the people of this country to believe, that their interests are discordant, instead of being concordant—which teaches the commercial and trading interests to look with jealousy on the landed interests, and teaches the landed interest, on the other hand, to regard with suspicion the growing wealth and prosperity of the trade and manufactures of the country."
The Chairmansaid, that the question now before the Committee was simply the amendment of the hon. member for Radnorshire, that the words "not exceeding

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five acres" should be inserted after the word "land."
Mr. Frankland Lewissaid, that no reasons had been stated to induce him to alter his opinion as to the necessity of introducing those words into the amended clause of the noble Lord. A mansion worth 100,000 l., or an estate of 10,000 l. a year, would only give a vote for a borough if it happened to be within the boundaries of such a borough, to the exclusion of all the tenantry, as well as the landlord, from votes for the county. These rural constituencies were called in to form an independent borough constituency, and received a great injury by being thus deprived of their county votes. When Cricklade, Aylesbury, and Bassetlaw, were thus purified, the electors created for that purpose from the surrounding districts were not deprived of their freehold rights for the county. Had that been proposed, the possessors of the land would not have accepted the offer on such terms. No country gentleman would consent to exchange his county franchise for that of the adjoining town, which he knew had always been in the market, and sold to the best bidder. He did not, however, see a sufficient number of his friends about him to warrant him in dividing the House on this question. He hoped, however, that the Committee would feel, that he had done his duty by bringing it under notice.
Amendment withdrawn. Question again put on the clause.
Mr. Pembertonapologised to the Committee for presenting himself to their notice, which, however, he had been induced to do in the absence of hon. Members better qualified for, and usually taking a prominent part in, these discussions. As he understood the clause, it left the right of the freeholder thus:—If a man lived in a borough town, in his own freehold house, he was divested of his right of voting for the county by virtue of that freehold; but if he happened to live in an adjoining house, and not in his own freehold, then he had the right of voting, as the holder of the house he lived in, for the borough, and also in right of his freehold for the county. Was there ever so monstrous a proposition submitted to a body of reasoning men, as that the mere fact of a man living upon his own freehold should divest him of the rights which that freehold, if let to another, would bestow upon him?—Another anomaly in the clause
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was, that while it gave the freeholder the right of voting for the county, if he did not reside upon his freehold, the same right was not to be enjoyed by the leaseholder and the copyholder. The noble Lord had told them, that the distinction was made because the right of the leaseholder and the copyholder was a right newly created by this Bill, whereas that of the freeholder was an ancient right, which ought to be held sacred. He confessed, he had heard that sentiment from the noble Lord with much pleasure, but with no less surprise. What! were they all at once become so tender of ancient and vested rights, in the very midst of a measure the very object of which was to destroy all the most ancient, and, as far as law and usage could make them so, the most sacred and inviolable rights in the country? Had they not been trampling upon corporate rights from one end of the kingdom to the other? Had they not disfranchised thousands and tens of thousands, who held their rights by the most sacred ties, as well of property as of a personal description?—Was not this measure founded upon the destruction and built upon the ruins of ancient and vested rights? He thought, then, that the noble Lord was something fastidious, if he would give him leave to say so, to boggle now at the shadow after he had destroyed the substance. It was like a man being startled at the ghost of the body which he had killed—like crossing the sea, and being stopped by a gutter.—The effect of the alteration proposed in this clause would be, to destroy that balance of the interests in the State upon which the Bill professed to be founded, and upon which it was accepted by the country. The proposed change would be a breach of the compact so made with the country, and would be so regarded. It was not with reference to the effect on the success of the motion of the Marquis of Chandos that the present Amendment had been introduced. He was not disposed to deny, that the feeling of the country was in favour of the Bill, but he contended, that the satisfaction, if well founded, could not continue when the leading principles of the Bill were entirely altered. How long would it be possible for the people to regard the Bill with confidence and satisfaction, when they found that the balance originally proposed was destroyed—when indeed the whole weight was taken out of one scale and

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thrown into the other? He therefore opposed the amendment of the noble Lord. He opposed it because it would destroy the proportions of the original Bill. The Committee was told, that the great, if not the only, reason for passing the Bill was, that the people might be satisfied. That might be a good reason for adopting the measure; it might be a good reason for destroying the English Constitution; but if that Constitution was to be sacrificed to such a motive, at least let not the people be deceived, and let the Committee have the price of their consent. Let not the principles of the Bill be wholly departed from by Ministers.
Lord Althorphad much difficulty in replying to the various objections that had been made to the present clause, as amended. First, there was his noble friend (Lord Milton), whose object was, that all persons who had freeholds, or the right of voting in towns, should have the right of voting for the county. Then, there was the member for Oxford, who wished that persons occupying their own freeholds should be excluded from voting; but that, when those freeholds were occupied by other persons, they should be admitted to vote. Then there was the hon. member for Bridport, who said, that he could have approved of the clause, as altered by Ministers, but that he must object to it, after the proposition of the noble Lord (Chandos). Next came the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down, who wished to exclude every body in a borough; and then the hon. member for the county of Radnor (Mr. F. Lewis), who wished to have a limit of five acres. Now, he confessed he found some difficulty in the attempt to answer those several objections; for, when replying to one, he was in danger of saying something that might seem to support some of the others. With regard to the observations of his noble friend, they did appear to him to amount to arguments against the Bill. He could not understand the separation of interests which had been spoken of. There ought, in this country, to be no separation of interests, and he was sure that, in the view which his noble friend took of the question, he would not find many supporters in that House. If all interests were the same, why should there be separate rights of voting for towns and counties? He wished that the noble Lord, who talked of simplification, had heard the hon. mem-
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ber for Thetford on the other side. Neither did he anticipate, that the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, founded upon an assumption that the Bill went to destroy vested rights, would have much weight; for he conceived it to be not possible for any man, or body of men, to frame a measure, effecting such important changes as the Reform Bill did, without affecting vested rights much more extensively. It had been, on the other side, contended, that all rights existing in counties should be extended to boroughs. That, he thought, would be scarcely consistent with the simplicity which ought to be preserved in all matters relating to boroughs. One of the most prominent causes of complaint against the borough system was, the great expense which the conveyance of non-resident voters entailed. Even in counties, were it practicable, it would be a great advantage, were the privileges of non-residents abolished. Upon the whole, he thought, in the course of the present discussion, there had been more arguments founded upon extreme cases than ought to enter into the consideration of an assembly legislating upon such a question.
Sir Robert Peelcould not help thinking, that, even on the noble Lord's own showing, it was advisable to confine the right of voting to towns in which the freeholds were situated. The noble Lord said, that there were two objections to it: first, that it would destroy the simplicity of voting, and next, that it would let in non-resident voters. In his opinion, it would greatly tend to simplicity, and he asserted that the argument as to non-residents did not fairly apply. In all cases of residence, the freehold gave the right of voting for the electoral district, and not for the county. How much more easy would it be to practise frauds under the system now introduced, than by confining to one person the right of scrutiny? With respect to the necessity of enforcing the principle of residence in towns, it was admitted, that the same objections which applied to nonresidents voting in towns, applied in some degree to non-residents voting for counties. If it was not right, and if it was expensive, in towns, to bring non-resident freeholders to the poll, it was equally so to bring them to the poll in counties. The advantage, therefore, derived in this view, from obliging the freeholders in towns to vote for the county was not all clear gain.

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Again, the same objections which applied to non-resident freeholders, applied still more strongly to non-resident freemen. A non-resident freeman had often no connection whatever with the place for which he was entitled to vote. The right was usually acquired by birth, marriage, or servitude; and there was no necessity for his having any property within the town. It was also to be considered, that the non-resident freeman was often a person in a very low class of life, and, therefore, open to bribery, and very often not able to bring himself to the poll. In any one town, however, that could be named, there were very few small freeholders—he meant freeholders under 10 l.—who were able to go to any expense in bringing themselves to the poll. The question, however, was, whether the small freeholder, within the limits of a town, had not a greater connection with the town Member, than with the Member for the county. The freehold generally partook closely of the nature of the town. Whatever promoted the interest of the town, usually promoted the interest of the town freeholder, and he had more ready means of access to, and communication with, the town Member than with the county Member, who resided, perhaps, at a distance of forty miles. Believing, therefore, that the simplicity of voting would be assisted by making the alteration, and that the evils of non-resident voters would not be increased by it, it had his support, and he hoped it would be adopted.
Mr. Cutlar Fergusonhad heard, with a good deal of astonishment, the speech of the noble Lord (Lord Milton), the member for Northamptonshire, in which he declared, that he would object to disfranchising any freeholder in England, not considering that when he voted for schedule A, he voted for the disfranchisement of many freeholders. He considered, that the right of voting was vested in every man who possessed it, for the public good, and therefore, he felt no scruple in dealing with the rights of freeholders, when the public good required it. Upon this principle, he had gone the whole length which the Bill required by its disfranchising clauses. There was another thing in which he could not concur with the noble Lord (Lord Milton). The noble Lord seemed to think, that there ought to be no distinction between borough and county Representation. That, however, was not
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the ancient principle of the Constitution. The distinction was obviously drawn. This Bill, too, he contended, had been purposely framed, and properly framed, with a view to separate and render more distinct, the county and the town Representation. This was the principle of the Bill as it originally stood, and he (Mr. Ferguson) could not agree with the clause as it now stood, so far as it differed from the clause as originally framed. With this view, he took the liberty of strongly urging upon his Majesty's Ministers the expediency of their adhering to this clause as it stood originally. Though he seldom concurred with the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), he admitted the force of his argument in the support of the proposition that freeholders in towns ought to be admitted to vote for those towns, rather than for the county. It was most important that the county Representation should be preserved free and independent, although he admitted, it was hard to know how this could be done, especially after the decision of the House on the noble Marquis, the member for Buckinghamshire's, amendment. For his own part, he had voted with Ministers on the proposition for dividing counties, but as tenants-at-will were to be admitted to the franchise, if another opportunity arose, he should retract that vote, and support the proposition for preserving the counties undivided. His opinion as to the present clause was, that it was much better as it stood originally.
Mr. Warrethought, that the scheme of the right hon. member for Tamworth, to allow 40 s. freeholders to vote for the boroughs in which they resided, would not work well when reduced to practice, particularly in the new boroughs. It would tend to create a mass of constituency which would overload the borough Representation. It would also produce discontent; for the man who lived in a house worth 5l. or 6l. a-year, and had no vote in a borough, would feel something like jealousy, when he saw his neighbour voting out of a garden worth 40 s. It was better, he thought, to confine the 40 s. franchise to counties. The 40 s. freeholders were of a class easily bribed. He did not mean to speak it invidiously; he thought it was so, and that there was not so much facility for bribery in county elections as in towns; and, as to non-residents it is evident that it would be impossible to enforce residence as a qualification for voting in counties.
Mr. Wasonwas anxious that the clause should be so framed as that freeholders should have the option to vote for the borough or the county, as they thought fit.
Mr. Warburtonthought, the noble Marquis's (Chandos) amendment had completely overturned the balance between town and county Representation, and had given the land-owners a preponderating influence. With a view to correct this, he should now propose an amendment, to give freeholders and copyholders in boroughs the double right to vote for the county and for the borough. He did not wish to include leaseholders in towns in this amendment, but merely freeholders and copyholders. The noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had, in fact, admitted, that the balance was destroyed by the carrying of the noble Marquis's amendment; but then the noble Lord conceived, that he had restored the balance, by extending the right of voting to tenants-at-will occupying 50 l. houses. The number of tenants-at-will occupying 50 l. houses, however, was not to be compared with the number of tenants-at-will occupying farms, and therefore the argument as to restoring the balance went for nothing. If the noble Lord had known, in the first instance, that tenants-at-will were to be admitted to vote in counties, the clause, in his opinion, would never have been proposed, to exclude freeholders in towns from voting for the towns, as well as for the county. The hon. Member concluded, by moving an Amendment as follows, viz.—to leave out all the words after the word "as," in the fourth line, down to the word "as," in the fourth line; and to add the words "that nothing herein contained shall prevent any freeholder voting in a county at large, from voting also in the borough or city in which his freehold is situated."
Colonel Sibthorpwished to put one or two questions to the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). Before he proceeded to do so, however, he wished to express the satisfaction which he, no doubt in common with others at his side of the House, felt, at receiving into their ranks such a recruit as the noble Lord (Lord Milton), the other member for Northamptonshire. The noble Lord appeared to have been converted to a great extent on this question, and his abilities and exertions would be a great acquisition to its opponents. When he looked at the clause
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then before the Committee, and at the noble Marquis's amendment, which he believed the House and the country went along with him in considering, not the noble Marquis's but his amendment—[a laugh] Hon. Members may laugh, said the hon. and gallant Member, but it is my amendment.
Hos ego versiculos scripsi, tulit alter honores—
An Hon. Membersuggested, that the word in Virgil was not scripsi, but feci.
Colonel Sibthorp;"Well, scripsi or feci, I don't know which, though I wrote it down. But scripsi or feci, I did both, and I take credit for both; and to the noble Marquis (pointing to the Marquis of Chandos) I apply the words 'tulit alter honores." With respect to tenants-at-will, he would select an instance from Lincoln which city was a county corporate. He knew a farmer in that place, a worthy and excellent man. This farmer held, as tenant-at-will, a house of above 10 l. value, under the Corporation in the city, and also as tenant-at-will under the same Corporation in the county, but not in that division (Lindsay) in which the city of Lincoln was to be included. What he wished to know was, whether this individual, who was his constituent, would be entitled to a double vote, or whether he would be excluded from voting for the city of Lincoln? He also wished to ask, if freeholders in towns were to vote for counties, why copyholders and leaseholders in towns should not be admitted to exercise the same privilege?
Lord Althorpsaid, his attention had been called away for a moment, and he had only heard one of the hon. Member's questions—that respecting a person occupying a house above 10 l. in a corporate county, and lands, as tenant-at-will, in the county at large. The only reply he could give to this question was, that he saw no reason why persons residing in counties of cities should be placed in a situation different from those who resided in boroughs. Under this Bill they would be precisely in the same situation.
Colonel Sibthorpsaid, it appeared by the answer given by the noble Lord, that freeholders in counties corporate were to vote for the counties, but the cities so situated as counties of cities, were to be part and parcel of the counties in the exercise of voting: as to freeholders, they were not to participate in the same enjoyment as others in counties, such as copyholders, and leaseholders, or-tenants-at

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will at 50 l. rent; this he pronounced unjust and partial. Why annex them to counties, unless you gave them the same full right of voting in all the branches; or rather, why deprive them of the full exercise of the right of voting?
Lord Althorpcould see nothing inconsistent between the two propositions, as the constituencies of counties corporate were assimilated in every respect to those of boroughs.
Colonel Sibthorpthought he only spoke the sense of his constituents, when he said, that counties of cities were most unjustly dealt with in it. As to the Bill itself, he believed now, as he had always done, that it must go—to the Devil.
Mr. Praedsaid, that, as the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) felt himself impeded and embarrassed, by not knowing which of the arguments urged by his opponents he should first reply to, those who opposed this Bill found the same difficulty in knowing which of the objectionable parts they should first attack. He agreed with those who thought it best to exclude altogether the freeholders in towns from any share in the county Re-presentation, and he would exclude from towns those who voted for counties. That this was the principle upon which the Bill was framed he was satisfied, from the language of the noble Lord who introduced it. His (Lord John Russell's) words were—"At the same time that the towns shall have of themselves a proper share in the Representation, having their own proper Representatives chosen by themselves, I do not intend that they shall interfere with the Representation of the counties."* If that was a fair exposition of the principle of the Bill, and they were now endeavouring to carry it into effect, the only question was, whether freeholders in boroughs voting for the county, should be said to interfere or not with the Representation of the county? and it was impossible, as he conceived, to answer that question any other way but in the affirmative. Whether or not the noble Lord who introduced it had given a fair exposition of the principle of the Bill, he (Mr. praed) would not take upon him to say; but the principle, he contended, was a good one, and whether the Bill was framed upon it or not, he should support any proposal tend-
*Hansard's Parliamentary Debates, Third Series, vol. ii, p. 1076.
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ing to carry that principle into effect. He concurred with the noble Lord, the member for Northamptonshire (Lord Milton), that it was bad and unwise to say, that the interest of the town was in hostility with that of the county; but he contended that it was neither unwise nor incorrect to say, that the interests of the towns might be distinct from that of the county. This was the principle adopted from the earliest ages of our Representative history, and it was recognized in the present Bill. For instance, in the case of Yorkshire. If the interest of Leeds could not possibly be distinct from that of Yorkshire, why was it thought expedient, that the people of Leeds should send Representatives for themselves? If the present Lord Chancellor was in that House, and his noble friend (Lord Milton) had ventured to urge such a position as he had now done—that no distinction should be made between the county and town Representation, how would his noble and learned friend have answered him? The Lord Chancellor, speaking on this subject in another place, on the 28th of March, said "he should not care if the leaseholders of the smallest term were let in; for while he let in the towns, it was his anxious wish, that the counties should be independent."* The Lord Chancellor did not mean securing the independences of the counties from the great landowners, as some might suppose, but securing their independence against the influence of the population of the towns. In reference to his own canvass for Yorkshire, the noble and learned Lord said, "He begged to remind his noble friend, that he never thought of canvassing the squires, although he had taken great care to canvass the towns." The noble Lord then proceeded to state some of the circumstances connected with his canvass—"that the squires were at first violently opposed to him, though he had the honour of boasting many friends amongst them," and, after stating that they "held a meeting for the purpose of preventing him from becoming a candidate, which ended in their inviting him to offer himself;" he went on to say—"However, he had not placed any dependence on the squires, all his reliance was upon the towns, for they were sure to carry the election." He then put it to the dignified Assembly he was addressing,
* Hansard's Parliamentary Debates, Third Series vol. iii p. 1063.

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"whether this was a state of county Representation which ought to be satisfactory to the country?" The only mode in which the county Representation could be kept distinct and independent was, he contended, by excluding altogether the freeholders in towns from any share in the county Representation. It was said, that if the 40 s. freeholders were added to the number of town voters created by this Bill, it would render the constituency in large towns inconveniently numerous. They had not yet come to the clause, however, entitling persons to vote in towns. Notice of an amendment was already given, that the qualification in large towns should be the occupation of a house worth 20 l. instead of 10 l. a-year; and when the clause relating to the qualification in towns came under discussion, then would be the time to consider whether the constituency in large towns should be diminished. The only question now was, whether the inhabitants of towns, being freeholders, should vote for the town or the county; and his opinion decidedly was, that the county Members ought not to be chosen by the constituency of the towns.
Lord Althorpsaid, he had before given the reasons which applied to the case remarked upon by the hon. and learned Gentleman; he would not trouble the Committee by repeating them.
Mr. Warburton'samendment, which he declined to press, was negatived without a division.
The original clause, as amended by Lord Althorp, was then read, and the question put upon each sentence. On coming to the words "or any other person,"
Mr. Hughes Hughes Mr. Hughes Hughes moved, for the purpose of assimilating leaseholders and copyholders in towns and boroughs to freeholders, that the words "any other persons" be omitted.
The Committee divided on the question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question. Ayes 187; Noes 1 *—Majority 186.
On the question being put, that the words "might acquire a right to vote in the election,"
Lord Althorp Lord Althorp moved, that the words "shall be entitled to vote," be inserted in lieu of the words "might acquire a right."—Agreed to.
* The only Member who voted for Mr. Hughes Hughes' amendment was Mr. Warburton.
The original clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
The Chairman read the 19th clause, as follows:—"And be it enacted, that in order to entitle any person to vote in any election of a Knight of the Shire, or other Member, to serve in any future Parliament, in respect of any messuages, lands, or tenements, whether freehold or otherwise, it shall not be necessary that the same be assessed to the Land-tax, any Statute to the contrary notwithstanding."—Agreed to.
The Chairmansaid, the 20th clause, that which related to the registration of voters for county Members, and the period during which persons must hold property before being entitled to vote, unless coming by descent, was next to be considered.
Lord Granville Somersetsaid, as this clause formed the preamble of the Registration clause of the Bill, and was important on that account, and likely to create much difference of opinion, he wished it should be postponed.
Lord Althorphoped the noble Lord would withdraw his objection, and allow the clause to be proceeded with. If there was any part of it to which he objected, he should have ample opportunity of discussing it, when the Registration clauses were before them.
Mr. C. W. Wynnsuggested that the clause should be postponed. Some part of it could not be discussed until they came to the Registration clauses.
Lord Althorpcould not well understand how they were to come to the consideration of the right of voting in counties, before the general machinery of the right of voting was discussed; but as it appeared to be the desire of the Committee to postpone it, he would not object further than to suggest, that the clause should be read.
Mr. Bonham Carterwished to see the clause disposed of, so that no advantage might be taken of the omission of the words relative to Registration.
Lord Granville Somersethad no objection to the clause passing, pro formâ, as it stood, provided that was not made a plea for hereafter refusing to allow him to oppose the whole principle of Registration. But, besides this, there was the proviso, which required explanation, for an exception was there made in favour of certain parties, but still under a limitation which might exclude them from voting.
Lord Althorpsaid, the reason for the exception was, to enable parties who might be promoted to benefices, and to whom property might come by descent, marriage, or otherwise, to acquire thereby a right of voting.
Mr. O'Connellthought it would be better to leave out the proviso altogether. It would generate the same abuses as prevailed in Ireland, where they were compelled to get rid of them by the manufacture of fictitious votes. Parties could easily evade the necessary scrutiny as to their being properly entitled to vote.
Lord Althorpsaid, the proviso only gave all such parties a right to be registered; it declared, that "such person shall be entitled in respect thereof, to have his name inserted as a voter in the election of a Knight or Knights of the Shire in the lists then next to be made."
Clause 20th was agreed to, after the following amendment, proposed by Lord Althorp, had been inserted. For the words "unless he shall be seized thereof," to substitute the words "and also in the actual possession or receipt of the rents and profits for his own use."
House resumed.

DUBLIN ELECTION.
On the question that the Committee sit again on Tuesday next,
Lord Stormont Lord Stormont rose and said, before the House adjourned, he had something to state relative to the Dublin election, and a question to put upon that subject to the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. From accounts which he had that day received, he had been informed, that an improper interference on the part of Government had taken place in the election now going forward for the city of Dublin, and he wished to know from the noble Lord, whether such interference had the sanction of the Administration? Probably the noble Lord would reply in the negative, but the House would recollect, that on a previous occasion, the right hon. Gentleman, the Irish Secretary (Mr. Stanley), in reply to some observations charging the Government with an improper interference at the last election had asserted, that no such interference had taken place, and when the report of the Dublin Election Committee was presented, it showed that a most undue influence had been exercised. He would, therefore, call upon the noble Lord to
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write that evening to the Irish Government, in order that no time might be lost, to put a stop to the undue influence which was now exercised at the Dublin election.
Lord Althorpreplied, that he knew nothing whatever of any interference on the part of any member of the Irish government with the election, never having, until that moment, heard of such a charge; and, therefore, he begged to decline communicating with the Irish Government in the manner suggested by the noble Lord.
Mr. O' Connellsaid, he had received communications from Dublin relating to the Dublin election. The noble Lord had misapprehended the right hon. Gentleman, the Irish Secretary, in what that right hon. Gentleman had said relating to the last Irish elections. He (Mr. O' Connell) had a perfect recollection of what the right hon. Secretary had stated, for he particularly noticed it at the time; and it was to this effect—"That there never was an election in which the Government interfered less." He was ready to bear his testimony to the accuracy of that statement of the right hon. Gentleman. In every election within his recollection, every Government had much more distinctly and unequivocally interfered than in that alluded to. Probably the question was put by the noble Lord for another purpose, as there was a report in Dublin about a change in the Administration, and something had passed about the declining popularity of the Reform Bill.
Lord Stormontwas anxious to know whether the noble Lord would, upon the statement which he had made, and upon the accuracy of which he would pledge himself, that very evening write to Dublin to put a stop to such proceedings as those of which he had complained, inasmuch as no time should be lost.
Mr. Lefroysaid, from information which he had that day received, communicating facts as to interference in the election, which interference was so objectionable, that he considered it the duty of Government to put a stop to it—he begged to state, that a Police Magistrate was sent for from the country, who had craved leave of absence on account of his bad state of health, to give his votes at the election. In addition to this, there had been interference of another kind. The Under Secretary for Ireland (Sir William

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Gossett), had actually gone about with the candidates, canvassing for them. He did not know what was a gross and undue influence of Government at elections if this were not. He had these facts from a source upon which he placed the utmost reliance; and he hoped, that his Majesty's Government would do something to put a stop to such proceedings as he had described. He hoped, at all events, that the House would hear a declaration from the noble Lord, that such proceedings had not his concurrence.
Mr. O' Connellsaid, he could explain what was called interference with a Police Magistrate. The Committee of Mr. O' Loughlin and Mr. Latouche waited on Alderman Darley, who had voted for the Reform candidates, and proposed one of them on the last election, to ask him to propose one of the Reform candidates on the coming election; and this was what was called interference. He hoped Government would not say, that they would not interfere, as proposed by the noble Lord, for that would be to admit his charge, that they had been interfering. What the Secretary for Ireland had said on the occasion of the former election was, not as stated by the noble Lord, that there had been no interference, but that there had never been an election in Dublin in which there had been so little interference. What was really asked by the noble Lord was, that Ministers should interfere for the Corporation candidates. They had, no doubt, often heard of such interference, and even of considerable sums of money having been so expended.
Lord Miltonconcurred in what the hon. and learned Gentleman, who had just addressed the House, said. It was a singular course to take, to call upon his Majesty's Ministers to write to put a stop to certain proceedings alleged to have taken place, on the authority of letters, of which neither the contents, nor the names of the writers, were known to the House.
Mr. Cramptonlooked upon the matter as a mere election trick, and the noble Lord who had commenced the discussion, as well as the hon. and learned Gentleman who had spoken to the same effect, had been made the tools or instruments of a party. He very much wished to know, from whom the statement made to the House had come. He did not believe that Sir William Gossett had interfered
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at the election; and he wished to know who the individual was, that had maligned the character of that gentleman.
Mr. Lefroysaid, that the statement which he had made he had received from a quarter incapable of wilful misrepresentation, and he repelled the insinuation that he had been made a tool of in the transaction. The two gentlemen, Mr. Latouche, and Mr. Sergeant O' Loughlin, might have interfered in the manner described by the hon. and learned member for Kerry, but, according to the information which he had derived from a friend, upon whose accuracy and responsibility he could rely, Mr. Alderman Darley had been written to by Sir William Gossett, requesting him to go to Dublin to give his vote. There was also another fact connected with Sir William Gossett's interference, which he had already named, and about which he had himself no doubt—viz., that Sir William Gossett had gone about the city of Dublin canvassing.
Mr. Cramptondid not mean to cast any imputation upon the hon. and learned Member, but he would still persist in designating the affair as an election trick—probably emanating from the Corporation of Dublin. The hon. and learned Gentleman had not stated his authority, nor had he named from whom the information was derived respecting the alleged communication to Mr. Alderman Darley. It was, however, a well-known fact, that Mr. Alderman Darley had supported, at the last election, the Reform candidates, and if he were now called upon by a Committee, or any other person, friendly to the candidates, who were also favourable to the cause of Reform, to give his vote to them, he was only supporting his own character for consistency in that cause.
Lord Stormontsaid, he would give the authority on which he made the statement. It was that of a noble Lord, one of the candidates for Dublin, late a Member of that House. No one who knew that noble Lord's character would suppose, that he could be a party to an electioneering trick, or that he would allow himself to be a tool in the hands of others for such a purpose; and for his own part he was equally incapable of allowing himself to be made a tool of.
Mr. Cramptonsaid, he must still persist in his opinion, that the affair was an election trick; but he must do the noble Lord, the candidate for Dublin (Lord In-

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gestrie) the justice to say, that he did not believe him capable of originating it, nor of wishing to make others instrumental in it. What he maintained was, that the noble Lord had been made a tool of: however the noble Lord who brought forward the subject (Lord Stormont) might dislike that phrase, he must be allowed to repeat it without meaning any offence—and must even affirm, that the noble Lord himself had also been made a tool of in the transaction.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, he had understood that Mr. Peter Fitzgibbon Henchey had written to some Members of that House, forwarding a statement relative to the Dublin election. For his part he was convinced, that the noble Lord, the candidate for Dublin, had been imposed on, as it was impossible to believe him capable of desiring to mislead the House; and he was of the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Solicitor General for Irelaaid, that at the bottom the affair was an election trick.
The Attorney Generalsaid, it having been mentioned that Sir William Gossett had been actively canvassing—now that was a fact, supposing it to have taken place, which would be known to many individuals; but it had been asserted, that Sir William Gossett had written a letter to Mr. Alderman Darley; if so, it was undoubtedly a private letter, and how came that to be known? He should like to know who could feel himself justified in making known the contents of a private letter, unless it were done by the consent of the parties?
Mr. Lefroysaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to think, that the interference of Sir William Gossett was the only instance he referred to; but Alderman Darley had been seen canvassing in Dublin. The House, however, would hear more of the subject, and in a more formal manner.
Mr. Sheilobserved, that the noble Lord (Lord Stormont) had given up his authority; but the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Lefroy) had not followed the noble Lord's example.
Dr. Lushington Dr. Lushington rose to order. This course was contrary to all the rules of proceeding which had been acted upon since he had had a seat in the House. The noble Lord (Stormont) had asked a question of a most extraordinary nature, and the discussion which was now going
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on would lead to the greatest inconveniences.
Sir Thomas Fremantlethought, that the question, which was a grave and important one, had been treated with a degree of levity on the Ministerial side of the House which the subject would not warrant. If the charge had come before the House in a confirmed statement, then doubtless it would be the duty of the House to take up the matter with a view to ulterior proceedings. Had the hon. Members who sat opposite been on the Opposition side of the House, and had such a charge been made against any party in the Government, they would have exercised more vigilance than at present; and would not have treated the question as one of no moment. He had the honour of being acquainted with Sir William Gossett some few years ago, and he believed him to be a very honourable man. He hoped, that the statement made affecting him had been somewhat exaggerated by the parties communicating with the hon. and learned Gentleman who had spoken to that statement. He thought it would be more becoming in that House, instead of requiring the noble Lord to cause a letter to be sent to Dublin, at once to take up the matter, and send one of its own messengers—to stop the interference of Sir W. Gosselt in the election. For if the matter were long delayed, the election would be terminated, and the interference would be like locking the stable-door after the horse was stolen.
Mr. Warburtonexpressed great surprise at the suggestion just made, and would put it to the hon. Baronet, whether he could seriously wish that House to pass a resolution such as must take place were his suggestion acted upon, without having any evidence before it, excepting the statement of an hon. Member, founded upon what was to the House an anonymous communication?
Sir Thomas Fremantle: It was not anonymous. An hon. Member stated, that an individual had been seen canvassing.
Mr. O'Connell: Yes, but the name is withheld. It is a private letter, and not to be made use of.
Mr. C. W. Wynnobserved, that if any hon. Member, on his responsibility, brought forward a complaint against an officer of Government, of improperly interfering with an election, it was a subject for the House to consider, if it was pressed.
Lord Granville Somersetsaid, they were placed in a peculiar situation with regard to the Dublin election. They had evidence that persons connected with Government had unwarrantably interfered, and they were bound to provide against the recurrence of the evil. If election tricks had been resorted to on one side, they had been equally resorted to on the other.
Question, that the Reform Committee sit again on Tuesday, agreed to.