Sitting of 16 November 1830

MINUTES.
Account ordered. On the Motion of Mr. W. WHITMORE, the Grain and Flour imported from abroad, and from Ireland, in each of the last ten years.
Petitions presented. For a repeal of the Duty on Coals, by Sir R. GRESLEY, from 500 inhabitants of Sunderland:— By Lord W. POWLETT, from the Merchants of Sunderland:—By Sir T. ACLAND, from South Molton. For the abolition of Negro Slavery, by Mr. TRAIL, from Thurso: — By Lord STRATHAVEN, from Fenny Stanton:—By Mr. WHITBREAD, from Bedford:—By Mr. LEFROY, from Kilmacross, and five other places in Ireland:— By Lord F. OSBORNE, two from Cambridgeshire:—By Mr. DAL-RYMPLE, from Haddington:—By Lord ALTHORP, from a Parish in Northamptonshire:—By Sir J. M'DONALD, from Calne:—By Sir F. BLAKE, from Berwick-on-Tweed and Bishop Wearmouth: — By Sir W. FOLKES, from Cressingham, in Norfolk:—By Mr. TYRELL, three from Essex:—By Sir T. ACLAND, three from Devonshire:— By Mr. DENMAN, two from Nottingham:—By Lord G. CAVENDISH, several from Derby:—By Mr. W. WHIT-MORE, from Oswestry:—By Mr. JONES, from Dissenters at Narberth: —By Mr. FANE, from Chipping-Norton. For the improvement of Education in Ireland, by Lord ALTHORP, from Kilcoman and Robin, in the County of Mayo. For Parliamentary Reform, by the Marquis of BLANDFORD, from Horsham:—By Mr. O'CONNELL, from the Association for Radical Reform, meeting at the Rotunda, in Blackfriars-road:—By Lord FORDWICH, from Canterbury: — By Lord NUGRNT, from High Wycomb. For a Repeal of the Union, by Mr. WYSE, from Carrick-on-Suir.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. Warburton Mr. Warburton, in presenting a Petition from Bridport, praying for a Reform by ballot, for the enlargement of the right of suffrage, and for the exclusion of all placemen from the House, said, that in the latter part of the prayer he could not at all concur. He thought it necessary that some of the members of the Administration should be in the House, to propose and defend the measures of Government.
Mr. Humesaid, that he was sorry to differ from his hon. friend, with whom he had so often the happiness to agree. He thought, however, that the House would be much better constituted if no placeman had a seat in it, and if Ministers, when present, were only allowed to explain their measures, and not to vote upon them. Among the changes which he expected would shortly take place, one most advisable change, in his opinion, would be the fixing of some limit to the number of persons holding seats in that House, who were dependent on the Crown, or holding naval and military commissions under it. The number of such Members, he believed, was at present nearly equal to a third part of the House, and was a great, enormous, and crying evil. He believed that all naval and military officers considered themselves independent, but when they looked forward to promotion, he was afraid that a change sometimes came over their views of public questions, almost unknown to themselves. He was therefore of opinion that the House would never fairly represent the opinions of the people until all naval, military, and civil officers were prohibited from holding seats in that House. He said, that not an East-India Director,—no, nor a Bank Director either,— no, nor any one holding a monopoly under the Crown, the King's Printer included among the rest,—should be allowed to have a seat in the House. That was his view of things, and be believed that the people went along with him in it. He did not expect to see such a reform carried all at once; but the thing must come gradually down, and he should be happy to see the day when no Minister should have a place in that House, except for the sake of explaining his measures.
The Sheriffs of London presented at the bar two Petitions from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City of London, one relative to the rates for London Bridge, and the other calling for Parliamentary Reform. The first was referred to the Bridge Committee.
On moving that the latter be read,
Mr. Alderman Woodavailed himself of the opportunity to state the reasons why the Corporation of London had again come forward to petition for Parliamentary Reform. The members of the Common Council, being elected annually, might fairly be. considered as representatives of the feelings of the thousands by whom they were

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elected. They knew that their constituents were as favourable to reform at the present moment as they had ever been in past times; but they likewise knew, that it would be impossible to collect them together, and to gain a declaration of their sentiments in the Common Hall, in the short time allowed them by the notice which the hon. and learned member for Yorkshire had given of his motion on this subject. If that great body had assembled, he had no doubt but that ninety-nine out of every hundred persons who constituted it would have signed a similar petition to the present. The leading members of the Corporation had, therefore, assembled the Common Council, and their reason for so doing was the declaration recently made by the Duke of Wellington,—that the country required no change in its representative system. It was impossible that they should sit silent after such a declaration, because they knew that their constituents were suffering severely in consequence of the want of reform; for till reform was granted, they did not expect that any of those reductions of expenditure would be made to which they felt themselves entitled. He hoped that by the decision of that night his constituents would be satisfied that reform was at hand. Indeed, it was impossible that it should be otherwise, after the division of last night, —a division at which he was sorry that severe indisposition prevented him from being present. The declaration in the King's Speech, followed up by the postponement of the King's visit to the City, led him to think that it was time for the Government to be changed. He wished to say that he had no words to express his astonishment at the impropriety of which the Lord Mayor and Sir Claudius Hunter had been guilty, in making communications to the Government without any authority from their brother Magistrates. He must blame Ministers for being frightened by two such persons, when he believed—indeed, he was sure—that they might have gone to the City,—he would have done all in his power to preserve them from danger,—and they might have been as safe in their seats at Guildhall as in that House or any where else.
On the question being put, that the Petition be read,

RESIGNATION OF MINISTERS.
Sir Robert Peelrose and spoke as follows:—
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"Sir,—The deep and unfeigned respect which I owe to this House induces me to take the earliest possible opportunity of publicly stating, here in my place, that, in consequence of what occurred last night, I have felt it my duty to wait upon the King, and humbly and respectfully to inform his Majesty, that I perceive it is no longer in my power to undertake the administration of public affairs, so far as the administration of those affairs depends upon me, either with satisfaction to my own feelings, or with perfect advantage to the country. Sir, his Majesty has been graciously pleased to accept the resignation thus tendered on my part, and I have to inform the House, therefore, that I consider myself as holding the Seals of the Home Department only until his Majesty shall have been enabled to appoint a successor to me in the office which I have resigned. The same, Sir, is the case with the other members of the Government. They all consider themselves as holding their respective offices only until their successors shall be appointed."
Lord Althorpsaid, in consequence of the communication which we have just received from the right hon. Baronet, I am sure that every Gentleman will feel that it would be most improper and most incorrect to undertake any serious and important debate under such circumstances. There is no longer any Administration in existence, and I hope that my hon. and learned friend (Mr. Brougham) will not submit to the House this evening a question of so much importance as that of which he has given notice. In my memory, no important question has ever been discussed under such circumstances; and I trust, therefore, that for this reason, as well as for the advantage of the question, my hon. friend will comply with the suggestion I now make to him.
Mr. Broughamsaid, I am sure that the respect which I feel for this House is, on all occasions, fully equal to that which has been so fitly and so gracefully expressed by the right hon. Secretary. I do, however, feel the greatest repugnance to putting off the motion which stands for this evening. My noble friend (Lord Althorp) near me is quite right in saying that no question of so much importance has ever before been brought forward when there was a deficiency in the effective government; but my difficulty is this—namely, that no question of so much importance — no

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question involving such mighty and extensive interests—has ever yet been discussed at all, under any circumstances, within the walls of this House. Sensible, therefore, of the deep responsibility which I have incurred in undertaking to bring forward a question of such vast importance, I cannot help feeling the difficulty in which I am placed, in being called on by my noble friend to defer it,—especially as the suggestion of my noble friend has been backed in some degree by the expression of similar opinions on the part of others. I am anxious, of course, both from the respect I owe to the House, and out of regard to the interests of the question itself, to defer to the declared sense of the House, both as to the shape in which I shall bring forward the motion, and as to the manner in which I shall bring it forward, as well as in respect to the time at which I shall bring it forward. I throw myself, therefore, fully, freely, and respectfully upon the House. If the motion be put off, I own it will be contrary to my opinion, and to my wishes; the House may be right or it may be wrong; I may be right, or I may be wrong; but I think that I am right, and I beg it, therefore, to be understood, that what I do, I do in deference to the wishes of the House. And further, as no change that may take place in the Administration can by any possibility affect me, I beg it to be understood that, in putting off the motion, I will put it off until the 25th of this month and no longer. I will then, and at no more distant period, bring forward the question of parliamentary Reform, whatever may be the condition of circumstances, and whosoever may be his Majesty's Ministers.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, I feel it necessary, in order to guard against misunderstanding, to trespass again for a few moments upon the attention of the House. I am not apprehensive of anything I have said being misunderstood here: but in order to guard against any misapprehension going forth to the country, I may be allowed to notice one expression which fell from the noble Lord (Althorp) opposite. I know very well what the noble Lord meant, but out of doors the expression to which I allude may possibly be misconstrued. The noble Lord said, "There is no longer any Administration in existence." This is, no doubt, in effect true; but it ought to be generally known and understood, that until my successor is appointed, I am in
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full possession of the authority of the Secretary of State for the Home Department; and that I am quite prepared, if public necessity should require me, to exercise that authority to its utmost extent, being quite confident that I shall receive the support of this House and of the country if I exert that authority in any case in which the public welfare calls for the exertion of it.
Lord Althorpsaid, I assure the right hon. Secretary that I did not misunderstand him. God forbid that I should have imputed to him any disposition to allow the public service to suffer injury in consequence of the changes which are about to take place. All I meant was, that under such circumstances, motions of so much importance as that of my hon. and learned friend, have never been discussed in Parliament.
Sir R. Peelsaid, my explanation was intended to prevent misconception out of doors. I was well aware that the noble Lord had not misunderstood me.
Mr. Alderman Waithmanrose amidst loud murmurs, and so much noise, that for some time he was totally inaudible in the gallery. When the hon. Member's voice could be heard, he observed that the Petition from the City of London had met with more complete concurrence than any other petition he recollected.
The Petition read, and ordered to be printed.

PETERSFIELD ELECTION.
Sir James Macdonaldpresented a Petition from Lord Porchester and Mr. Ogle, and also from several voters for Petersfield, complaining of the return of Sir William Jolliffe, and his brother, Mr. Gilbert Jolliffe. The Petition stated, that the returning officer is nominated by the Leet Jury, a body carefully selected by the steward of the Court, from the friends and dependants of the Lord of the Manor, Mr. Jolliffe; that the returning officer at the last election was a tenant of Mr. Jolliffe's, and his assessor an attorney from Croydon, in Surrey, who acted as Mayor in 1826, at the request of Mr. Jolliffe; that by the partial, illegal, and arbitrary conduct of the Mayor and his Assessor, Lord Porchester and Mr. Ogle were deprived of the votes of many bona fide electors upon the most frivolous objections—such as that they were not in possession of their title-deeds, although they offered attested copies, and proved

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that Mr. Jolliffe held the original deeds as the owner of the largest part of the property held under the same title, and although they had bona fide paid the purchase-money, and been in possession and received the rents for several years; that the Mayor admitted many persons to vote in Messrs. Jolliffe's interest, who were not bona fide freeholders, and particularly that, although it was admitted by the Mayor that persons had polled at former elections for Mr. Jolliffe, who held only faggot votes, and although the vote of Samuel Twyford, Esq., who had voted at former elections, was rejected, because it was evident, from the manner in which he answered the questions of the opposing counsel, that he had never paid any consideration for his freehold, and was possessed of no real interest in it, but had merely accepted a fraudulent and collusive conveyance from Mr. Jolliffe to qualify him to vote in his interest, the Mayor afterwards, in defiance of reason and justice, admitted persons to vote for the Jolliffe candidates who refused to answer the same questions that had been put to Mr. Twyford, merely because they had voted at former elections. The Petitioners also charge the Members with having procured their election by bribery and treating.
Petition ordered to be taken into consideration January 4th.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of HARDWICKE, from Lynn, for a repeal of the Duty on Coals borne Coastways. By the Duke of RICHMOND from, Tenterden and Goudhurst, for a Reduction of Taxes, and Reform in Parliament. For the abolition of Negro Slavery, from several parts of the country, by Earl SPENCER, the Duke of NORFOLK, the Earl of ESSEX, Lords WHARNCLIFFE, SUFFIELD, and CALTHORPE, the Earl of MELROS, Lord DACRE, the Duke of RICHMOND, the

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the Bishops of PETERBOROUGH and of BATH and WELLS, (1,671 in number) by the Duke of GLOUCESTER, and by Lord WYNFORD, from a place in Northumberland.

RESIGNATION or THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON.
STATEMENT of the VOTES of the FORTY-FIVE REPRESENTATIVES of SCOTLAND, on the lath of November, 1830, on the Motion for the appointment of a Select Committee to take into consideration the Accounts relating to the Civil List, presented to the House by command of his Majesty.

Places.

For Ministers.

Against Ministers.

Absent.

Aberdeenshire

Hon. Wm. Gordon

Argyleshire

W. F. Campbell

Ayrshire

William Blair

Banffshire

John Morrison

Berwickshire

Hon. Capt. A. Maitland

Buteshire &c.

Right Hon. Sir W. Rae

Clackmannanshire, &c.

Hn. G. R. Abercromby

Dumbartonshire

Lord M. W. Graham

Dumfries-shire

J. J. Hope Johnston

Edinburghshire

Sir George Clerk

Elgin and Morayshires

F. W. Grant

Fifeshire

Captain James Wemyss

Forfarshire

Hon. Wm. Maule

Haddingtonshire

Lord John Hay

Inverness-shire

Rt. Hon. Chas. Grant

Kinkardineshire

Hon. H. Arbutbnot

Kirkcudbrightshire

R. C. Ferguson

Lanarkshire

Hon. Charles Douglas

Linlithgowshire

Hon. Sir A. Hope

Nairnshire

Hn. Cpt. G. P. Campbell

Orkneyshire

G. Trail

Peebles-shire

Sir J. Montgomery

Perthshire

Sir G. Murray, G. C. B.

Renfrewshire

Sir Michl. Shaw Stewart

Ross-shire

Sir J. W. Mackenzie

Roxburghshire

Henry F. Scott

Stirlingshire

H. H. Drummond

Sutherlandshire

Lord F. L. Gower

Selkirkshire

A. Pringle

Wigtonshire

Sir Andrew Agnew

ROYAL BURGHS.

Aberdeen, &c.

Sir Jas. Carnegie

Anstruther, &c.

J. Balfour

Ayr, Irvine, &c.

T. F. Kennedy

Dumfries. &c.

W. R. K. Douglas

Dysart, &c.

Lord Loughborough

Edinburgh

Rt. Hon. W. Dundas

Elgin, &c.

Hon. Gen. A. Duff

Glasgow, &c.

A. Campbell

Inverness, &c.

John Baillie

Jedburgh, &c.

Colonel A. Dalrymple

Linlithgow, &c.

Henry Monteith

Perth, &c.

Hon. S. Wortley

Stirling, &c.

James Johnston

Tain, &c.

James Loch

Wigton, &c.

J. H. Lowther

Total

29

7

9

Of the forty-five Members from Scotland, twenty-nine voted with Ministers, against a Committee to inquire into the Civil List, and seven voted for the Committee; and of the nine absent Members, we believe only three would have voted for the Committee, and six against it—making the number of Scots Representatives thirty-five who support Ministers, i. e. nearly 6–7ths of the whole number.

The Duke of Wellingtonsaid:—"My Lords, I deem it my duty to inform your Lordships, that in consequence of what occurred last night in the other House of Parliament, I felt it right to wait this morning on the King, and tender his Majesty the resignation of the office which I hold; that his Majesty has been pleased to accept of my resignation,

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and that I continue in my present situation only till a successor shall have been appointed." The noble Duke immediately left the House.

CLERK OF THE COUNCIL.
Earl Grosvenorwished to know from the noble Earl opposite, whether it was true that he had bestowed the appointment of Clerk to the Privy Council, vacant by the sudden death of Mr. Buller, on any individual. If rightly informed, though he was unwilling to believe the report, the vacancy had been filled up by the noble Earl within twenty-four hours of its occurrence —a haste, he thought, not becoming with a patent office of so much emolument.
Earl Bathurst said, that no appointment had taken place.