Sitting of 8 November 1830

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. Complaining of undue Returns for Drogheda, Cork, Taunton, and Ilchester. By Mr. DENISON, from Clapham, against extending the Metropolitan Police Act to that district. By Mr. PHIPPS, from the Ship-owners of Scarborough, against the Duty on Coals carried coastwise. For the abolition of Slavery, by Mr. BLAIR, from Glasgow:—By Mr. HODGSON, from Newcastle-upon-Tyne:—By Lord STANLEY, from Blackburn, Bolton, Backford, and five other places in Lancashire:—By Sir WM, INGLEBY, from Brinckley:—By Sir R. PRICE, from Dissenters at Kingston, Ross, and Huntingdon:—By Mr. SANDFORD, from several places in Somersetshire:—By Mr. BELL, from several places in Northumberland:—By Lord ALTHORP, from several places in Northamptonshire. By the same noble Lord, from General William Thornton, objecting to the King's being called upon, on his accession to the Throne, to make a Declaration against Transubstantiation.

ABSENCE or MINISTERS.
Mr. Broughamtook the opportunity of a petition being presented, to remonstrate (it being then above half-past three o'clock) against the absence of all the Ministers. The arrangement which had recently been made for the purpose of expediting the public business would be worse than use- less, if from three to five o'clock the House were to receive petitions, and per- haps to enter into discussions on the Abolition of Slavery, Parliamentary Reform, and other important questions, without the presence of one of his Majesty's Ministers. Such a proceeding would be a mockery; and he trusted, therefore, that the absence of all the Ministers at that hour was a mere oversight.
Colonel Sibthorpwas of the same opinion as that which had just been expressed by the hon. and learned Gentleman. He regretted that absence, as he had an important question to put to his Majesty's Ministers with respect to the letter which had been published from the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the Lord Mayor of London, by which it appeared, that our illustrious Sovereign, who dwelt in the hearts and affections of his people, had been advised by his Ministers to decline visiting the City, where he would have been greeted by his faithful subjects with the warmest welcome, and where blessings would have been showered upon his head. He perfectly agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman. It was too frequently the practice that no Minister of the Crown was present in that House, to hear the petitions presented by hon. Members, or to answer any question which it might be expedient to put.
Mr. Dundasobserved, that in less than a quarter of an hour it was probable some Minister might be present. When the House met at four o'clock, it had been usual for Ministers not to attend until about five.
Sir Charles Burrellsaid, it ought to be recollected that business of the greatest importance must be pressing on the minds and attention of his Majesty's Ministers at the present moment. He thought they were entitled to the credit of some motive of that kind for their absence. He had no connection with his Majesty's Ministers; but some consideration, in the present dreadful state of things, was due to them.
Mr. Broughamreplied, that he was loath to say anything against any man in
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his absence; but he must say, that the absence of Ministers at the present moment could only tend to increase the grievous evils to which the hon. Baronet alluded, resulting from that alarm to which the conduct of Ministers had much contributed. Perhaps hon. Members were not aware, that in consequence of the King's Speech and of the letter—the absurd letter—from the Secretary of State, which had been that morning published, thousands of holiest and innocent persons would be beggared. The funds had fallen no less than seven per cent in consequence of all this alarm. It was the unpopularity, not of his most sacred Majesty, who was beloved by all his subjects, but of his Majesty's advisers, which had caused all this evil. If his Majesty had determined to go to the City, unattended by any of his present Ministers, he sincerely believed that, instead of falling, the funds would have greatly risen.
Mr. Arbuthnotsaid, that he had no doubt some one of his right hon. friends would shortly be in the House, and he really thought that it was due to his Majesty's Government to defer any questions or observations of this nature, until some of his Majesty's Ministers were present to answer them.
Mr. Broughamperfectly agreed with the hon. Gentleman. His observations had been extorted from him by the hon. Baronet's having alluded to the present dreadful state of things; a state which appeared to him to be applicable only to the Ministers personally.
Sir R. Peelhaving entered the House,

THE ROYAL VISIT TO THE CITY.
Lord Althorpsaid, observing the right hon. Baronet in his place, he wished to ask him for some explanation of one of the most extraordinary and alarming events that he had ever known in the course of his public experience. He was desirous to know, what could have induced his Majesty's Ministers to expose his Majesty to the great unpopularity which might follow from his disappointing the expectations of thousands of his faithful subjects, by advising his Majesty to decline fulfilling the promise he had made to dine with the Lord Mayor to-morrow? It was not in London alone that the most serious effects would result from this affair. The alarm which the intelligence of it would create, from one end of the kingdom to the other,

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would necessarily be excessive. He supposed that his Majesty's Ministers had not taken an important step like this without proceeding on the most authentic information, and without the most deliberate consideration. Were it not so, their conduct would deserve the severest censure. Under these circumstances, he begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman the grounds of the measure which he had adopted.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that however anxious he might be fully to answer the question which had been put to him by the noble Lord, and to give every information on the subject referred to which it was in his power to give, he was sure the noble Lord would not expect from him— he was sure the House would not expect from him—any declaration or statement that might be prejudicial to, or in any way interfere with, the course of the public service. The letter which had appeared in all the newspapers of the day, addressed to the Lord Mayor, was authentic, and the signature to that letter was his. That letter conveyed the deliberate opinion of his Majesty's confidential servants, that they had felt it to be their duty to advise his Majesty to postpone the visit which their Majesties intended to pay to the City of London on Tuesday next. The opinion was founded on the firm belief entertained by his Majesty's Government, that a collision of a very serious nature might take place in the attempt to maintain the public peace. Such a collision was at all times to be avoided; but peculiarly so on an occasion such as that in question. If ever an anxiety could be justly entertained to avoid such a collision, it must be at a time when an immense concourse of innocent and unsuspecting persons were assembled, at night, in the streets of the metropolis, to witness a great public festival. When it was considered that such an evil might be avoided, since there was no obligation that the festival in question must take place, and when to that was added the fact, that information had been received of an intention on the part of evil-disposed persons to make that festival a scene of tumult, and probably of bloodshed, he thought no man would deny that it was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to give his Majesty the advice which they had given. It was his firm belief, while he was ready to do the most ample justice to the loyalty of the people of London, while he was convinced of the warmth of
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their attachment to their Sovereign, while he was perfectly assured that the most implicit reliance might be placed on their affection to his Majesty, while he admitted that in the great body of the people he was disposed to place the most unbounded confidence, he was perfectly persuaded, that if their Majesties were to visit the city of London, a tumult and riot would ensue, involving consequences of a most deplorable character, and perhaps leading to bloodshed. I should be doing (continued the right hon. Baronet) injustice to the feelings and character of the great body of the inhabitants of this metropolis, if I did not make an avowal of my sincere belief in their loyalty in the most distinct terms; yet, though my information leads me to believe that in their zeal and affection the utmost confidence may be placed, it also made me perceive, that it was in the power—and, unfortunately, I learnt that it was also the intention, of a few abandoned and desperate characters, to promote disorder and tumult, which it would be difficult to repress by night, without incurring the risk of inflicting that punishment on the innocent which ought to fall upon the guilty alone. On that night there would be in the streets of London not merely many good citizens and loyal men but also an immense concourse of women and children. Supposing that an attempt should be made to involve a part of the town in darkness, in order to facilitate an attack upon either the lives or the property of a part of his Majesty's subjects, in what position would those persons, who are intrusted with, and are responsible for, the peace of the metropolis be placed, if they should be obliged to resort to force in the midst of a mixed crowd of unoffending women and children? If such a collision can be avoided, is it not right, is it not prudent, is it not the bounden duty of Ministers, to take such measures as will avoid it? I have now to inform the House, that in the course of Saturday and of Sunday last a variety of information from various quarters came into my office, which led me and the other members of his Majesty's Government to believe, that there was a possibility of a great tumult arising on Tuesday next, from the acts of a desperate and abandoned set of men, who, though few, were still sufficient in number to create very general and extensive alarm. In the course of Saturday, the Lord Mayor elect of Lon-

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don, the chief magistrate of the metropolis for the ensuing year, felt it to be his duty to make to the Duke of Wellington a communication, which I will now proceed to read to the House, being willing to afford it every information upon this subject which my duty will permit me at present to disclose. This communication was received by his grace the Duke of Wellington on Saturday morning.
"My Lord Duke,—From the situation of Lord Mayor, to which I have been elected, numberless communications are made to me, both personally and by letter, in reference to the 9th, and it is on that account I take the liberty of addressing your Grace.
"Although the feelings of all the respectable citizens of London are decidedly loyal, yet it cannot but be known there are, both in London as well as the country, a set of desperate and abandoned characters, who are anxious to avail themselves of any circumstance to create tumult and confusion. While all of any respectability in the City are vying with each other to testify their loyalty an the occasion, from what I learn it is the intention of some of the desperate characters above alluded to, to lake the opportunity of making an attack on your Grace's person—
[Very loud cheering, mingled with considerable laughter, from the Opposition benches]. "Good God! A sarcastic cheer!" continued Sir R. Peel; "and made, too, in the House of Commons, on hearing that the Lord Mayor of London has communicated to the Duke of Wellington that he had reason to believe that an attack would be made on his Grace's life as he accompanied his Majesty to the civic festival! And from an officer in the army, too! [This was an allusion to Colonel Davies, whose cheer was remarkably loud.] Whatever may be the opinions entertained by individuals as to the official acts and political character of the Duke of Wellington, is there a single man in the country—I am sure that the gallant Colonel who cheered so loudly, when the heat of debate has passed by, will be among the first to deprecate such attempts —is there, I say, a single man of the slightest respectability in the country, who would wish to carry his political hostility to such an extent? To proceed, however, with the letter—
"While all of any respectability in the City are vying with each other to testify their loyalty on the occasion, from what I learn it is the intention of some of the desperate characters above alluded to, to take the opportunity of making an attack on your Grace's per-
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son, on your approach to the hall. Every exertion on my part shall be used to make the best possible arrangement in the City; and at the same time I feel, that should any violent attack be made in one quarter, any civil force alone might not be sufficiently effectual, and I should not be doing my duly, after what I have heard, did I not take the liberty of suggesting to your Grace the propriety of coining strongly and sufficiently guarded. I probably may be considered giving you needless trouble, but the respect which I, as well as every person who really wishes the welfare of the country, must have for your Grace, and the gratitude we owe you, have induced me to adopt this course. I have, &c. (Signed)
"JOHN KEY, Lord Mayor elect."
Here, then, was an intimation from the Lord Mayor elect of London to the Duke of Wellington, that there was no security for his Grace, on his visit to the City, unless he came provided with a large military guard. Would it be fitting, I ask, for his Grace, after all the services which he has rendered to this country, to be seen going to Guildhall accompanied and guarded by a troop of soldiers? Is that a salutary state of things, in which it is announced that a Minister of the King cannot go to meet his Sovereign at Guildhall without being exposed, I do not say to the usual symptoms of popular obloquy, but to the risk of an attack upon his person? But this is not all. Intimations reached my office that an attack was to be made upon his Grace's house in the course of the night, when the police were at a distance, under the pretence of calling for lights to illuminate. I say, that any such attack must be accompanied by riot; and that the attempt to suppress such riot by force, when the streets are filled with women and children, must be accompanied by consequences which all of us would lament. That, however, is only one of the causes which I have for believing in the possibility of such an attempt at riot taking place. Every one is aware that there exists in the. public mind considerable excitement against those authorities which have been appointed, under the sanction of the House, to maintain the public peace, —I allude, of course, to the body which, is known by the name of the New Police. To maintain order in that procession, had it taken place, it would have been necessary to draw together all the civil power which the New Metropolitan Police places at the disposal of the magistracy, it being desirable to resort to all civil means, in preference to military means, for the

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preservation of the public peace. The police must have been collected from nine o'clock in the morning, to line the procession from St. James's-palace, from which his Majesty would start, to Temple-bar, where he would enter the City. If they remained on duty all night, then those parts of the town which it is their special duty to guard, would be left unprotected; and, therefore, if there were any mischievous designs entertained against property, those designs might be easily perpetrated. If, however, each party of the police remained separated, then there would be grounds to apprehend that there would not be a sufficient civil force to maintain order in the line of procession, on an occasion when not only the ordinary population of the metropolis was likely to assemble upon it, but also a vast concourse of strangers from all parts of the country. I am now sorry to be obliged to inform the House, that in the course of Saturday and Sunday last, the most industrious attempts were made in various quarters to inflame the public mind against the new police. Thousands of printed hand-bills were circulated, some of which I will read to the House, for the purpose of shewing the means employed to inflame the people against that portion of the civil force which is intrusted with the preservation of the public tranquillity. These are not written papers, drawn up by illiterate persons, and casually dropped in the streets, but printed hand-bills, not ill-adapted for the mischievous purposes which they are intended to answer. One of them is in these terms:—
"To arms, to arms!—Liberty or Death! London meets on Tuesday next, an opportunity not to be lost for revenging the wrongs we have suffered so long; come ARMED, be firm, and victory must be ours!!! "AN ENGLISHMAN"
Another of them is couched in the following terms:—
"Liberty or Death! Englishmen! Britons!! and honest men!!! The time has at length arrived—all London meets on Tuesday — come armed. We assure you from ocular demonstration, that 6,000 cutlasses have been removed from the Tower, for the immediate use of Peel's Bloody Gang—remember the cursed Speech from the Throne!!—These damned Police are now to be armed. Englishmen, will you put up with this."
Now after hearing the inflammatory language of these hand-bills, I call upon the
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House to consider how great the likelihood is, that after the police had returned to their ordinary duties, in their respective portions of the town, a desperate attack would be made upon them. If it were made, it would, of course, be resisted by the civil force; if the civil force were insufficient to repel it, military aid would be called in; and then, on that night of general festivity and rejoicing, in the midst of crowds of unsuspecting men, women, and children, there might be resistance, and if resistance, bloodshed, occasioned by the necessity of supporting the civil authorities. I am sorry to add, that the experience of what took place at the last popular assembly fortifies the impression which the information transmitted to my office originally created in my mind,—that there might be such assaults committed by the people on the police. The last public procession which we had was on the 2nd of November, the day on which his Majesty came down to open the Session of Parliament. In the course of the night of that day, the police having attempted to apprehend certain persons discovered in the commission of crime, were violently attacked by numbers, of the lower classes; and the individual who aided the police, by giving them permission to deposit their prisoners in his house, and to shelter themselves under its protection, had his house attacked and most of his windows broken. The next morning there came before the Magistrates of the different police offices in the metropolis, not less than sixty-six cases of assault committed in the course of that night on the police constables. Of those sixty-six there were ordered to find bail to appear at the Sessions, forty-two — there were fined, or in default of payment imprisoned, nineteen—there was remanded one—there were discharged on their own recognizances two—and there were also two absolutely discharged. Still there were sixty-six cases of assault committed on the police constables on the night of the 2nd of November. Such being the case, when on Saturday and Sunday the hand-bills which I have just read to you were industriously circulated, directing the people to attack the police with arms, could we, as Ministers, view without apprehension the consequences which might ensue in different parts of the metropolis, when the business of the day was concluded, and the police constables were separated by their duty in their respective

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districts? If unprovoked attacks were made upon them, and I have decisive evidence before me that such attacks would be made upon them, is there not danger that, in exerting the energies of self-defence, a few desperate characters might, in spite of the great loyalty of the mass of the population of London, have provoked consequences highly injurious to the public tranquillity? The House, I have no doubt, will be glad to hear, that the Government asks for no new law to repress these disorders, but is determined to enforce the old, which is sufficient for the purpose. We feel it, however, to be an imperative duty to avoid an occasion by which, in these agitated times, any collision may be produced between the constituted authorities and the people. I know the disappointment which has been experienced by the necessity of postponing the civic entertainment. I know that great sacrifices have been made, by various classes of his Majesty's faithful subjects, to pay every honour to him during his visit to the City. I was this day waited upon by the deputies of various trades, which had undertaken to protect the peace during various portions of the procession, and I could not hear, without regret, the expressions of disappointment which they uttered at finding that, though their Majesties had full confidence in the exertions of their loyalty, they were not to have the proud gratification of escorting them upon their entrance into the City. With a full knowledge of all these circumstances, I cannot help thinking that the disappointment occasioned by not holding this festival is a very subordinate consideration indeed, when placed in the balance against the maintenance of the public peace. These, Sir, are the grounds on which the members of his Majesty's Government came to the unanimous resolution of advising his Majesty that this occasion should not be given for assembling on a November night an immense concourse of people of all descriptions. I sincerely believe, that if they were assembled the public peace would be disturbed. I sincerely believe, that recourse to military authority might be necessary for its preservation, and that, in the struggle to secure it, numbers of unsuspecting and unoffending persons must unavoidably be sacrificed. If such results were probable, I ask again whether it was not our duty, as the responsible Ministers of the Crown, to
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advise his Majesty to forego the satisfaction of visiting the City of London, in order to spare him and his consort the permanent pain of having been unconsciously the cause of bloodshed and suffering to their unoffending subjects? I know not whether the House will approve of the course which we have adopted upon this occasion. I know that it will be said that the Government is unpopular, whilst his Majesty is most enthusiastically beloved by his people. It is my duty to bear that taunt, rather than forbear from giving that advice, of which the adoption is calculated to secure the tranquillity of the metropolis,—to prevent the loss of life—and to prevent, above all, any addition to that excitement of feeling which is at present so much to be deplored. I will submit to any taunt founded on the obloquy or objectionable character of the Ministry among the people, rather than give them any cause for excitement which I can possibly avoid."
Mr. Broughamassured the right hon. Secretary that he should hear no taunt from him on this painful occasion. But, though he gave the right hon. Secretary that assurance, he nevertheless felt it necessary to return his thanks to his noble friend near him for having elicited from the right hon. Secretary the statement which he had just made. He could assure the right hon. Secretary, that the few words which he was going to address to the House were intended to add to the effect which his speech would have in quieting the alarm, which he would not say had been excited without any cause, but which he thought had been excited without sufficient cause, in this great metropolis. Though it was not strictly right for him to address the Chair at present, there being no question regularly before it, still he trusted that a consideration of the public convenience, and of the peace and tranquillity of this great metropolis, and he might even say of the country, would be admitted by the Speaker as a sufficient excuse for his saying a few words, although irregularly, to the House. He felt exceedingly sorrowful that a festival, by which the good City of London had set such store, should not be holden with all that pomp and pride of circumstance which, of old custom, belonged to it, and with that which, on this occasion, gave to it its chief interest,—he meant the presence of the Royal Family. That was

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not, however, the event which he chiefly lamented upon this occasion. The alarm which had been excited by the unexpected appearance of the right hon. Secretary's letter was so great, that the most awful mercantile inconvenience must result from it. Within a very short time after its appearance, the Stocks fell three per cent; and that fall of three per cent, be it minded, was in addition to a fall of four per cent, which occurred last week. He did honestly and sincerely confess, that he looked with apprehension to the probable consequences of so unexpected a fall. Many a good man and many a worthy family, engaged in the ordinary transactions of commerce, and not indulging in wild and dangerous speculation, would find himself reduced, in a single week, from a state of affluence to a state of beggary, by the blow which such sudden revulsions always gave to public credit. If, then, anything which he could say could have a tendency to lessen the existing panic,—and he assured the right hon. Secretary that what he was going to say was intended to accomplish that object, and that object alone,—if he could succeed in showing to the public that there was no reason for anticipating that general confusion and disturbance of which the letter of the right hon. Secretary, appearing without the explanation which he had just given, was calculated to excite the idea— if he could succeed in removing and allaying the apprehension which was now so general in the City, and which would soon be equally general in the country at large, he thought that he should be rendering, as he did it conscientiously, an acceptable service both to the Government and to the House. He considered the statement of the right hon. Secretary as very satisfactory in one point, and calculated to produce much good. The right hon. Secretary had admitted that there was no deficiency of loyalty, of good conduct, and of peaceable demeanor among the great, opulent, virtuous, and intelligent classes, of which the population of London and Westminster was composed. He had avowed that they were not merely not tainted with disaffection, but that they had even been singularly forward in the readiness with which they had volunteered to assist in maintaining the public peace. That statement would be of the utmost importance in allaying the notion that there was any intention on the part of the
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people to revolt against their present form of Government. As to the remaining part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, to what did it amount? It amounted simply to this—that it was a bad thing to have a large assembly of the people on the 9th of November, and for this reason,—that though 999 men out of 1,000 then assembled might be peaceably and loyally disposed, yet the odd units—the few who were riotously inclined—might put out the lights in the street, might involve the town in darkness, and might afterwards commence a scene of riot and confusion, which could not end without bloodshed! Now if this were any objection to his Majesty's attendance at the civic festival, it was not an objection to which the course of events had suddenly given birth within the two or three last days. Every one acquainted with the state of society in this country must be aware, that such an event as his Majesty's visit to the City must, from its very rarity, collect thousands, if not myriads, to witness it, so that any accident to which the metropolis was exposed at present, from the collection of a large mass of people together, must have been as palpable a month ago as it is now. The right hon. Secretary had told the House, that it was the duty of Ministers to advise his Majesty not to visit the City if there was a possibility of any accident occurring in consequence of his visit. Now, with all deference to the right hon. Secretary, he did not think, that he had alleged a sufficient reason for his Majesty's not appearing among a loyal and affectionate people, who anxiously expected his presence. If he had said thus much in justice to the inhabitants of this great metropolis, and to allay the apprehensions which he knew they felt, it gave him great pleasure to make another remark, in justice to his Majesty. If it had appeared that, on a given day, it was universally believed that the King could go safely to Guildhall, and yet that, within two or three days afterwards, in consequence of a certain event, a notion had got into circulation that he could not go there without danger,—if such an idea had remained unexplained, it might sanction an opinion at home, and more especially abroad, where the King's immense and well-deserved popularity was not so well understood,— it might look, he said, as if, for some new and undefined reason, that popularity had become endangered to such a degree, that

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his Majesty could not meet his faithful commons of London without fear of a tumult and riot. But the speech of the right hon. Secretary had convinced him to the contrary. "My conscientious opinion," said Mr. Brougham, "is, that his Majesty may go safely to Guildhall now, without suffering any inconvenience, save that arising from the pressure occasioned by the eager wishes of his affectionate and faithful subjects to behold him;—ay, as safely as he confessedly could have done before the country heard the Speech from the Throne. I must regret that a trial was not made of the affection which his people bear to his Majesty. But perhaps the error, if it be one, is on the safe side. I cannot, however, help thinking, that it is a little hard on his Majesty, that in consequence of nothing—not even a syllable,—having been said in the proclamation of this morning as to whose unpopularity it is, that causes the postponement of the civic festivities, it should be made to appear as if it were the unpopularity of the King, and not that of his Ministers. Whereas it now appears, on the showing of one of the Ministers themselves, that if his Majesty would go to Guildhall, and if the Duke of Wellington would stay at home, the King, being unattended by his unpopular companion, would be received with the most sincere and heartfelt exultation by a loyal, an affectionate, and a grateful people, whilst the noble Duke, being left at home to defend his own house, would, from his well-known gallantry, find no person hardy enough to attack it. I regret much the appearance of the letter of this morning,—I regret it on account of the mischief which it is certain to cause in the mercantile world,—I regret it also on account of its apparent connexion with that Speech from the Throne, followed up, as that fatal Speech has been, by the still more fatal declaration of the Duke of Wellington, against every species of reform,— a declaration to which, in my conscience I believe, he owes nine-tenths of his present unpopularity. I wish that that declaration had not been made. I wish, also, that I had not lived to see the day, when a forgetfulness of those invaluable services in the field,—which have made for the Duke of Wellington, as a soldier a general, and a conqueror, a great, a brilliant, and imperishable renown, coupled with a deviation by the noble Duke from his own sphere of life, into the labyrinths
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of politics, and with an attempt on his part to shine as a great statesman,—a character which nature, that formed him a great General, never intended that he should become—I wish, I repeat, that I had not lived to see the day, when the forgetfulness of his great merits by the rabble,—a forgetfulness never to be pardoned, always to be condemned; for no deficiency on the part of the Duke of Wellington as a politician ought to eradicate the gratitude which we all owe to him as a soldier; and even as a statesman, he is not without his merits — I wish to heaven, I once more repeat, that I had not lived to see the day, when the forgetfulness of the people to the merits of the soldier, and the forgetfulness of the soldier to his own proper sphere of greatness, has displayed to England, to Europe, and to the world, that the Duke of Wellington cannot accompany his Majesty on his journey into the heart of an attached and loyal population."
Colonel Daviesfelt compelled to address the House upon this occasion, in consequence of the pointed allusion which had been made to a cheer of his by the right hon. Secretary. He could not conceive how the right hon. Secretary could so misconstrue his cheer as to suppose that it meant an approval of any attack which the ruffian rabble might make upon the person of the Duke of Wellington. He viewed with as much indignation as a man could do the infamous attacks which had recently been made upon his Grace by some of the lowest ruffians in the country. What caused his cheer and astonishment was, that after such an alarming letter as that which appeared in the newspapers that morning—a letter containing a declaration, which he conceived, could only be justified by the discovery of some widespread conspiracy against the Throne—it should turn out, that the main, and indeed the only reason, why the City was disappointed of a visit from its Sovereign, was the unpopularity of the Prime Minister. Was it the intention of the Duke of Wellington, now that he found that he could not raise his own popularity to the same height with that of his Majesty, to bring down his Majesty's popularity to the same level with his own unpopularity? He could not admit that the right hon. Secretary had made out any case sufficient to justify the postponement of his Majesty's visit to the City. He had told the House

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that he expected to have the police attacked in the course of the evening, provided his Majesty dined in the City tomorrow; but he had not informed the House, why the same attack would not be made upon them, provided his Majesty should persist in his present determination to stay away.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that however tempting the occasion might be, he would not enter into any of those questions of party-feeling which the hon. and learned Gentleman had raised in the course of his speech. His object was, to co-operate with the hon. and learned Gentleman in his endeavour to calm the public feeling. He would therefore endeavour to abstain from replying to the sarcasms into which the hon. and learned Gentleman had so naturally fallen. He cordially admitted the hon. and learned Gentleman's intentions; and he wished to state, in the most clear and positive terms, that the hon. and learned Gentleman had put a correct construction upon his language. "I believe with him," said Sir Robert Peel, "that the King and Queen might safely go to Guildhall to-morrow without any other inconvenience, save that arising from the exuberant loyalty of the people. I believe with him, that from one part of the procession to the other, there would have been nothing but one universal demonstration of loyalty and affection to their Majesties. I believe that every man possessed of property in the metropolis would have been ready to expose himself to any danger for its protection, and for the protection of the public peace. I know that among those who had confederated for that purpose were 1,400 or 1,500 persons connected with the first houses in London. So far am I from wishing to have it inferred that there was any disloyalty among the citizens of London, that I now declare my sincere conviction to be, that never was there an occasion on which greater attachment to the King, and a stronger disposition to maintain the public peace, were displayed. Still let the House reflect on the condition in which the metropolis would have been placed. All the firemen would have been engaged as guardians of the public peace. To maintain order in the line of procession all the ordinary police of London must have been on duty by as early an hour as nine o'clock in the morning. With all the facts which came to the knowledge of the Government, I
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did not think it safe to leave all the suburbs of London exposed to plunder for the whole of to-morrow. What I stated in my former speech, and what I repeat now is, that voluntarily to get together, on a November evening, a large concourse of innocent people, men, women, and children, when certain agents of mischief are known to be at work, may be productive of consequences which should be avoided if possible. The gallant Officer says, that in spite of the postponement of his Majesty's visit, the attack on the police may still take place to-morrow night. It may so; but then, mark the difference. The association of the people to-morrow night will be voluntary, and without apparent cause, and, now that warning is given, must be only for mischief; whereas, if the King's visit had not been postponed, the association would have been sanctioned by the Magistrates, and would have been, as far as they could discriminate, perfectly innocent. I beg pardon for again intruding so long upon the House. I merely rose to state, that the hon. and learned Gentleman has put the exact construction that I could have wished upon my words, and that, if any opinion has got abroad that there is disloyalty in London, that opinion is quite groundless. In conclusion, I beg leave to state my sincere conviction, that there never was a Sovereign on the British Throne better entitled to, and more in possession of, the undivided affections of his people, than his present Majesty. If I omitted to state that circumstance before, it was only because I thought it too notorious to require mention."
Colonel Sibthorprose to assure the right hon. Secretary, that in proposing the very question which had just been put to him by the noble member for Northamptonshire, to another Minister, before he (Sir R. Peel) entered the House, he had not done so from any want of courtesy to the right hon. Secretary. A sense of what was due to his King, his constituents, and his country, had urged him to press for the earliest intelligence on this most important subject.
Mr. Alderman Waithmansaid, that it was impossible for him to remain silent upon this occasion, without disregarding one of the most sacred duties which he owed to his constituents, who had been placed in a most extraordinary situation by the conduct of the Government. We were told that we had a King of the most popular cha-

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racter, and yet that he could not partake of a dinner with his good citizens of London without running the risk of seeing the public peace disturbed by a handful of desperate and abandoned men. With such an imputation on the City of London, it was incumbent upon him to state to the House one or two facts, which it was important that the public should know, in addition to those which had already been mentioned by the right hon. Secretary. He must mention, in the first place, that when he left the Court of Aldermen that day, who were specially convened to consider of Sir Robert Peel's letter, there was but one opinion on the subject in the whole court: all the members were astonished and confounded by the contents of that letter. Having long acted as Magistrates for the metropolis,— having sat in committee every day for some weeks past, in order to superintend the arrangements at Guildhall,—and having sworn in a number of most respectable citizens as special constables, they were indeed surprised, with all the information which they possessed as Magistrates, at hearing to-day, for the first time, that there was cause for apprehending a breach of the peace in the City. After some inquiry it appeared, that a communication had taken place between the right hon. Secretary and a deputation of three Common Councilmen, the Lord Mayor elect, and an Alderman, now acting for the present Lord Mayor. He would not enter into a repetition of what passed at their interview, for the right hon. Secretary could inform them of it more clearly than he could. When the Committee was asked whether they were apprehensive of a riot, their answer was, unequivocally "we are not." He (Mr. Waithman) knew, however, that the Lord Mayor elect had written a letter to the Duke of Wellington on the subject of his personal safety, warning him that it would be endangered if he came into the City. When the Committee was asked whether, in their opinion, there was the slightest cause for apprehension, they expressed their most decided judgment in the negative. An hon. Baronet and Alderman, had been running about a good deal backwards and forwards, had been making communications from one quarter to another, on the ground, as it would appear, that he thought he knew much more than others; whereas it was clear,
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from his communications, that he knew much less. It was an astounding circumstance that the Lord Mayor elect should have communicated that information, which was deemed so important as to occasion more than one or two Cabinet Councils, and had ended in such a result, without having made the slightest communication of it to the Magistrates of London. The result was, a reflection upon the whole Magistracy of the City of London, importing that they were incompetent to preserve order in the City, which they were ready, one and all, indignantly to repel.—Whence the Lord Mayor elect had received his information —information so important as to have been the occasion of the most disastrous disappointment to the whole metropolis— he could not tell. Until informed of his communication by the letter of the Secretary of State, the Court of Aldermen were utterly ignorant of it. It was a gross reflection, he repeated, by whomever made, and one that he was authorized indignantly to repel, to suppose that the City Magistrates, and the police under their command, could not have prevented any breach of the peace. What, then, was the plain truth of the matter? Why it must be, either that his Majesty did not possess the affection of the people, or that his Majesty had an obnoxious Ministry; and there could be no doubt which of these two was the fact, for every body knew, that no British Monarch was ever more beloved by his people than was William IV. The Ministers seemed to have doubted whether the letter of the Lord Mayor was a forgery or not; for, at nine o'clock on Sunday night, the Under Secretary of State came into the city to inquire whether or not it was a genuine letter of the Lord Mayor elect; and the Under Secretary of State brought with him a letter, which he was to deliver to the Lord Mayor if it turned out that the other letter was genuine, but which he was to take back again if it turned out to be a forgery. Nothing could exceed the consternation, the universal consternation, which this absurd proceeding had excited in the City. It had affected the funds, as they had all heard; it had affected the trading interests of every description; and the alarm would quickly spread throughout the country. And all this mischief had been caused by timidity or folly without any ground or reason! Was it not, he would ask the House, most ex-

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traordinary that the Lord Mayor had not consulted any of his colleagues; that none of the City Magistrates had been thought wise enough to be trusted with this important information; and that those who represented the City of London in Parliament, and who were at the same time Magistrates of the City, should have heard nothing about this intended breach of the peace? Yet this was the fact; the Lord Mayor had asked the opinion of no one, had consulted with no one. He could not express, because he could not trust himself with, language to express the indignation he felt at such conduct. As to what might have happened,—he had very little apprehension that any thing would have happened on the other side of Temple Bar—on this side Temple Bar, it was for the Ministers to watch, and be answerable for, that. Let it not be supposed that he was insensible to the wickedness and the malice of those who molested the new police; he blamed them as much as any one could, and if he had opposed the establishment of the new police in the City, it was only because he did not wish to see the peculiar laws and usages of the City broken in upon. However, if the new police and the Ministers could not have preserved the peace, on such an occasion as this, out of the City, he would tell the House who could, and who would, have preserved the peace, both in and out of the City during his Majesty's visit;—the citizens would, the respectable tradesmen and shopkeepers of the City of London would, he was sure, have willingly undertaken this office, if there had been any necessity for it, and have conducted his Majesty peaceably to Guildhall. The Ministers ought to have known this, and ought not to have advised his Majesty as they had. He verily believed that the Ministers, by this act, had signed their own death-warrant, they had committed an act of political suicide, and that, if any jury were called to sit upon them, no other verdict but "insanity" would be brought in. He could not sit down without once more impressing upon hon. Members that there was no danger, that there was no cause of fear, that the citizens of London were able and willing to have prevented any breach of the peace, and his Majesty, he was sure, might have visited the City, and heard no other sound than the boisterous merriment of a delighted people.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that as member for the City of Westminster, he trusted that he might be allowed to say a few words on the present occasion, promising the House that they should be very few. He had felt it his duty to inquire, so far as his means extended, since the delivery of the Speech from the Throne, and since the declaration which the Prime Minister had made in the other House of Parliament, whether any change had taken place in public opinion respecting the Government or his Majesty. His inquiries on this subject had been neither few nor limited, and the result of those inquiries enabled him to assert with confidence, that there was no disaffection at all among the people. That word either was, or ought to be, always applied with reference to the general Government of the country, and not with regard to the particular Administration of the day. Using the word in this its only proper sense, he repeated, that he might with confidence assert, that towards the august person who filled the Throne, and towards the established Government of the country, as a limited monarchy, no disaffection at all existed among the people. But he should not do his duty if he stopped here: he should be unworthy of the place he filled in that House if he hesitated to speak out on an occasion like the present. Disaffection there was among the people, but it was disaffection towards the Ministry. Among the people there did exist the strongest feeling against the longer continuance of those gentlemen in office, and he must say, he did very much wonder, considering the many hints those gentlemen had received, that they did not find out that there was another alternative open to them besides preventing his Majesty from attending the City festival. This other alternative had been suggested to him by many gentlemen, not only among those with whom he commonly acted, but by gentlemen connected with his Majesty's Government. The alternative to which he alluded was, that the Ministers should have resigned their places. The introduction of party politics, on an occasion like the present, had been deprecated; but the whole question was, whether the Ministers ought not to have considered,—before exciting the consternation which had resulted from that letter of the right hon. Secretary,— whether they could not have prevented all chance of a disturbance, and whether they

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could not have effectually secured the preservation of the public peace, by going out of office. If they thought not, then they had, no doubt, acted in a manner which their consciences must tell them was right. He told the Ministers the other night—what they must hare known to be quite true—that there had never been effected so great an alteration in the public feeling, in so short a time, as that which had been manifested since that fatal Speech from the Throne, and that still more fatal declaration of the Duke of Wellington. His firm conviction was, that if the King's Ministers had resigned to-day, the King might have gone to Guildhall to-morrow, not only without the Duke of Wellington exposing himself to danger, as, God forbid the Duke or any other man should! but amidst the redoubled acclamations of the people. To that determination the Ministers might be assured they must come at last, and, that too, at no very distant period. They might be assured too, that there was a deep and strong feeling pervading the whole of the country, that there must be a change in the system by which the so-called Representatives of the people were returned to that House; and if the Duke of Wellington would not accede to this desire on the part of the people, they must find a Minister who would. If the present Ministry took the same view of this subject as the Duke of Wellington had taken, the sooner they retired the better.
Mr. Brownlowcould not help breaking through the rooted disinclination he had to address the House, and giving vent to the expression of the grief, the disappointment, and the unmeasured indignation he felt at this transaction. When he recollected that the King of England,—his King, to whom he owed his allegiance, and to whom he was ready, with his allegiance, to offer his heart and love,—a King the most popular, and justly the most popular, that had ever ascended the Throne, and who might have wandered from Wapping to St. James's unattended by a single soldier or policeman,—when he recollected that such a King should have had for Ministers men who had put such a Speech into his mouth, that they seemed determined to make him the offensive organ of unpopular sentiments,—he could not refrain from giving expression to his feelings. But for this conduct on the part of the Ministers, there would
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have been no pretence for the unwise and unjustifiable proceeding, out of which the present discussion had arisen. Was it not clear, however, from all that they had heard, that there was no disaffection towards his Majesty? What, then, had been the cause of the postponement of his Majesty's visit to the City? The meaning of the transaction was obviously this —that the Ministers had, by the Speech they had put into his Majesty's mouth, displayed a heartless indifference towards the people, not sympathising with their sufferings, but turning a deaf ear to their wishes. For this conduct it was, that the Ministers, not the King, feared to trust themselves among the people, who would have proved to them, more to their conviction than to their satisfaction, that they did not preside over the councils of the country with the popular voice in their favour. The Ministers feared the expression of popular disapprobation, and they had, therefore, advised his Majesty to remain at home. He wished it to be understood, and he trusted that it would be understood, from one end of the country to the other, that it was the Ministers, and not the King, that had anything to fear. As for the Duke of Wellington, he did not believe that a single hair of his head would have been touched. The fact was, that the Duke of Wellington had shrunk from the expression of popular disapprobation, and, in order to shield himself from that, he had covered himself with the Royal mantle
Mr. Alderman Thompsonrose for the purpose of confirming the statement which had been made by the hon. Alderman opposite (Waithman) which was doubtless correct, though the hon. Alderman had mentioned some matters which he (Mr. Alderman Thompson) should not have thought himself justified in introducing here. True it unquestionably was, that only one feeling— a feeling of affection and loyalty to the King—pervaded the whole body of the citizens of London, and, in his own mind, he had no doubt that, from the arrangements which the Magistrates had made, the entertainment to his Majesty would have passed off without any breach of the peace. Every measure for the preservation of the peace had been taken, and no less than 1,600 special constables had been appointed in addition to the ordinary police force of the City. Further than this, a body of respectable

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citizens, residing in the eastern part of the metropolis, amounting to between 4,000 and 5,000, had sent in their names and places of residence, and offered their services for the purpose of keeping the peace. While he admitted this, yet, when he considered the nature of that unfortunate and unauthorized communication which had been made by the Mayor elect, to the executive Government, he must say, that he thought the Government had been placed in a very delicate and embarrassing situation. He had been in that House long enough to have heard motions made on the subject of the collision which took place between the people and the military at Manchester, and he was quite sure, that every Gentleman who heard him would have bitterly regretted so unfortunate a circumstance as that one drop of blood should have been spilt in a similar collision to-morrow. While, therefore, he regretted the unauthorised communication that had been made to the executive Government, and while he regretted also the disappointment which had resulted to the citizens from that communication, yet he could not concur with those Gentlemen who had stigmatized the Ministers for the advice they had given to his Majesty. He was anxious, however, to rescue the Magistrates of the city of London from the imputation of timidity. The Court of Aldermen had that day come to the following resolution:—
"This Court doth hereby take the earliest opportunity of informing their fellow-citizens, that they most unequivocally and decidedly disavow the knowledge of any communication made to the Government of the inability of the magistracy to preserve the peace of the metropolis on the Lord Mayor's day (which they are bound and ready with their lives to maintain on all occasions,) because they are quite satisfied of the complete efficiency of the police, and that the steps taken by the magistracy to increase the civil force were commensurate to the highly important occasion of his Majesty's visit to this great City; and they cannot but lament that any representation should have been made which has had the effect of influencing the postponement of his Majesty's visit to this loyal City of London. (Signed) "
WOODTHORPE."
Sir Robert Peelsaid, he could only state, that on Saturday two Aldermen came to him, as from the City authorities, one of whom was the Lord Mayor elect, and the other a gentleman who said, he
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was deputed by the late Lord Mayor. These gentlemen told him, that the civil power in the City would not be sufficient for the preservation of the public peace, and asked for the attendance of a body of the military. He referred these gentlemen to the Horse Guards. Now, after receiving such a communication as this, and listening to the speech of the hon. Alderman (Thompson), he must say, that, considering the heavy responsibility that rested with him, he wished that the magistrates of the City of London would be good enough to depute proper persons to make communications to the Government.
Mr. Alderman Thompsonsaid, that he had not cast any responsibility upon the right hon. Secretary. In justice to the right hon. Secretary, to the Magistrates of the City of London, and for the satisfaction of the House, he felt himself called upon to state, that those two individuals, whom the right hon. Secretary had referred to, had not only no authority to make any such communication to the Government from the Corporation, but that the fact of their having made that communication was totally unknown to the Magistrates of the City.
Sir R. Peelsaid, he could not, of course, know what authority those two gentlemen had, but they certainly represented themselves to him as authorized to make the communication he had mentioned. One of them being the Lord Mayor elect, and the other acting for the late Lord Mayor, it never occurred to him to question them as to their authority, and certainly the offices they filled seemed to point them out as very fit persons to make such a communication, for to them, one might naturally suppose would be left the arrangements for the preservation of the public peace.
Mr. Hughes Hughessaid, that he begged to call the attention of the House to a letter which had been received by a respectable tradesman, and of which he had obtained a copy. It ran thus:—
"Sir; If you let or illuminate any part of your house on the 9th, your life will be in peril. There is at present too many Englishmen starving to let money be spent so.
(Signed) "SWING."
[Cries of "Oh! oh!" and much laughter.] The respectable tradesman who received this letter did not laugh at it; but, on the contrary, seemed inclined to disappoint his friends to whom

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he had promised places, and also to refrain from illuminating. A great many other tradesmen, he was informed, had received similar communications; and he thought that, under all circumstances, the step which the Ministers had taken was a judicious one. He begged to remind hon. Members that the information communicated by the Lord Mayor ought to be received without suspicion, because, in adopting this course, the Lord Mayor had sacrificed both honour and popularity.
Mr. Humesaid, it was lamentable to see the situation into which the metropolis had been plunged in the short space of nine days. He maintained, that the personal popularity of the Sovereign was undiminished, but he contended that it was a lamentable thing that, in consequence of the presence in his Majesty's Council of one single individual this metropolis had been put in imminent danger; for he understood that the presence of the noble Duke at the head of the Government was one of the main causes of the alarm. He trusted, that the House of Commons would feel it their duty immediately to lay an Address before his Majesty, respectfully soliciting him to dismiss the noble Duke and his colleagues from his councils; for the whole population in this City, and in the country, was against them. It was to him (Mr. Hume) a matter of astonishment how any man in that House could sit still, and not feel it his duty to move an Address for the dismissal from his Majesty's councils of those evil counsellors whose conduct had excited so much alarm and irritation. He was confident that to-morrow would be characterized in the City by tranquillity and peace. If the inhabitants of this metropolis valued their rights as Englishmen, and if they wished to see the Duke of Wellington removed from office, they would to-morrow exhibit the most orderly and peaceable demeanor.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeragreed with the hon. member for Middlesex, that if his Majesty's Ministers deserved to be dismissed from office, it was the duty of those hon. Members in that House who entertained that opinion to move an Address for their removal. They only deserved to remain in office as long as they retained the confidence of Parliament; and if they had lost that confidence, it was only for Parliament to pronounce its
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decision, and they would bow to that decision, not only with deference, but even with satisfaction. He said with satisfaction, and he would repeat it, because there could be to them no greater satisfaction than to see the Government of the country placed in those hands in which Parliament thought it should be placed. They had been told, that it was the duty of Ministers, after they had given the advice which they did give, to have resigned last night, and it was said, that if they had done so, his Majesty might then have proceeded triumphantly and tranquilly to the City to-morrow. But what would be the opinion of Ministers if they had acted in such a manner? Would not the hon. gentleman (the member for Westminster) be himself, in that case, the very first to tax them with cowardice, because they determined to forbear accompanying his Majesty to Guildhall tomorrow? Would they not be told that they had brought his Majesty into a difficulty,—that they had involved him in a perplexity, and had left him to get out of it as well as he could; and that they had left the City of London without any adequate means for repressing the disorders which they had anticipated would take place? He would, in conclusion, again express a hope, that if the hon. member for Middlesex was of opinion that his Majesty's Ministers should be removed from office, he would bring the question forward as soon as possible.
Sir J. Grahamwas very unwilling to come forward at a moment of very great excitement, when more mischief might be done by a Member's expressing his sentiments than by his retaining them to himself. He had, therefore, determined to forbear from expressing his sentiments, strong as they might be, on this occasion; but he had been induced to depart from that determination in consequence of the speech of the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down. That right hon. gentleman had intimated, that if that House should come to a decision that the public interests no longer demanded the services of himself and his colleagues, they would receive that decision with satisfaction. Now, if he (Sir James Graham) did not greatly misunderstand the feeling of the country, that feeling had — particularly within the last few days, in consequence of the declaration of the noble Duke (Wellington) in another place, and of the

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sentiments expressed in that House by the right hon. gentleman, the Secretary for the Home Department, respecting the vital and all-important question of reform —set strongly against the Ministry, and he was sure that the vast majority of the people of this great country did not place any confidence in his Majesty's Ministers. But the right hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had endeavoured to taunt them for not bringing forward at once a motion for the dismissal of the Ministry, if they were of opinion that they deserved to be dismissed. The Ministers were, no doubt, anxious that it should be brought forward in that manner, but he (Sir James Graham) was opposed to a premature discussion of that question, aware as he was that, in consequence of the constitution of that House, the bringing forward a question in such a shape, and before the public mind was properly prepared for it, would be the most effectual way to strengthen any Administration. He therefore trusted, that it would not be brought forward now, that they would go on with the Orders, as they had been entered in the Order-book, and that upon this day se'nnight the sense of the Commons of England would be taken upon that which he (Sir James Graham) considered the most vital and important of all questions,—namely, whether it was expedient or not that the state of the representation of the people of the United Kingdom should be considered, with a view to its Amendment. In reference to that question, the Duke of Wellington had declared himself against all reform, and the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) had declared himself unable to see his way, and that he could give no opinion upon it. His Majesty's Ministers, therefore and the public had come to an issue upon that great question, whether it was expedient that the state of the representation should be considered, with a view to its alteration. That was the point upon which they had come to an issue, and, as far as he could see, the declaration which had been made by the Duke of Wellington against reform, and the sentiments which had been expressed by the right hon. Baronet, had, in an incredibly short period of time, effected the greatest possible change in the sentiments of the public with regard to the Ministry. The right hon. gentleman, in his letter published that morning, had stated that
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it would be dangerous for his Majesty to go in a procession to the City "by night." Why, within one short week from that day, his Majesty had gone in a procession "by night;" he had gone to the theatre, and he had encountered no danger whatever, but was, on the contrary, rewarded by the most loyal and enthusiastic demonstrations of affection on the part of an attached and devoted people. What had since intervened? That celebrated declaration of his Majesty's Prime Minister, that nothing should induce him to discuss this question of reform; and that, if it should be brought forward by others, it should be opposed by him. From coming into contact with a great body of constituents, he was tolerably well acquainted with the opinions of the population of this country; and he would say upon that point, in reference to which the Duke of Wellington had declared that he would concede nothing, that his Grace was at direct issue with the people of England; and when he said the people of England, he meant, not merely the lower orders, but the middle classes of society, in conformity with whose sentiments the Government must be conducted, or it could not stand. The right hon. Baronet had himself, upon a former occasion, stated, that he rested upon public opinion, and that he was ready to stand or fall by its decision. Now, public opinion demanded a reform of the representation in the Commons House of Parliament, and while the right hon. Baronet and his colleagues declared that they would not grant it, the people of England said that it must be granted, or that there would be no peace in the realm, and no security for property. That was the point on which the Ministers and the people of England had come to issue, and which he hoped would soon be brought to trial. He trusted, therefore, that no premature discussion would be introduced with regard to the confidence of Parliament in Ministers, but that upon the great question of reform the decision of the House should be taken. That declaration of the Duke of Wellington which had rendered him so unpopular, had astounded, alarmed, and confounded the people of England. The noble Duke had previously enjoyed a portion of the confidence of the public, but that declaration had made him the most unpopular Minister that was ever known in England. At the same time he (Sir J. Graham) must

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say, and he said so from the bottom of his heart, that any act of personal violence offered to that noble Duke would be a stain upon the annals of this country, which years of future glory would never wash away. He did hope whatever opinion might exist as to the civil conduct of his Grace, that eternal gratitude, which he deserved for his splendid military services, for his dauntless valour, and for his glorious achievements, would wait on him, and that his person or his life would never be placed in hazard in this country. He feared that the noble Duke was too fond of ruling alone, and that he was obstinately attached to that policy which he thought was right; but he trusted that the noble Duke would not continue obstinately to pursue a line of policy which might place the peace and the prosperity of the country in jeopardy, and in his conscience he believed that public opinion had pronounced—decidedly pronounced—against the policy of the noble Duke.
Mr. Slaneysaid, that at this moment the people were most anxious to ascertain the amount of the danger which the letter of the right hon. Baronet anticipated that they would have had to encounter if his Majesty had persevered in his determination to dine in the city to-morrow. It appeared from what had been disclosed in the course of the present discussion, that the danger would have been much less than had been supposed. The line of conduct adopted by his Majesty's Ministers had been founded upon the busy, and, he must say, the unauthorized communications of two Aldermen,—communications which had been repudiated by the Aldermen who represented the City of London in that House. He was surprised that no inquiry had been made by the Government in the first place, as to the authenticity of the information communicated by the Lord Mayor elect. It appeared to him that in this instance the Government had committed a great error by acting on the incorrect information communicated by two busy, and, as it now appeared, unauthorized Aldermen.
Sir C. Forbesremarked, that much had been said in the course of the present debate, upon what was termed the just unpopularity of the noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Administration; but the services which that illustrious individual had performed for this country and for Europe, in a military point of
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view, and lately to the United Kingdom, by removing the disabilities of the Roman Catholics entitled him to our gratitude, and would send his name down to posterity as one of the greatest Ministers who ever presided over the Administration of affairs in this country. He would ask the House, indeed, and more especially the hon. Gentleman opposite, what the situation of Ireland at this moment would have been if the measure of Catholic Emancipation had not been carried? There could be no doubt but that it would have been in the same situation as Belgium. When so much was said of the unpopularity of Ministers, and so earnest a wish was expressed that they should retire from office, he desired to ask if they retired, who were to succeed them. For his own part he knew no man fit to be at the head of the Administration of the country at this time but the Duke of Wellington. It was very easy to say that there was a decided feeling of hostility towards his Majesty's Ministers, but so far as his opportunities of ascertaining the fact had enabled him to come to a decision, he should say, that out of doors no such feeling existed. He was sure that the majority of the people were in favour of the present Ministry, and he felt confident, that when that question should be put to the test, the result would confirm his opinion. Every one knew that when a feeling had been expressed by any influential man, or set of men, hostile to the measures adopted by his Majesty's Government, it was easy to bring a very large number of persons who, on usual occasions, had been in the habit of expressing approbation of the measures of the Government—it was easy to bring those persons over to follow the opposite course.
Mr. Denmanparticipated entirely in the sentiments of disgust which had been expressed by the hon. member for Cumberland, at the personal attacks which had been made upon one of the greatest men of the day, whose extraordinary military services in the cause of the country ought to shield him against personal attacks on account of political opinion. Descending from such a distinguished character to men of far humbler station in the country, he was desirous to bear his testimony against those brutal and savage outrages which had been committed against a body of men who had

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been of the greatest service to the metropolis. The most savage attacks had been made upon the new police, and having witnessed their conduct, he must say, that it appeared to him that they were, generally speaking, an active, steady, well-conducted, and respectable set of men. It was true, that some of them had been brought into disgrace, but they were few, and were punished by the officers of their own corps. He had witnessed the conduct of the inspectors of police, a very respectable class of officers, and from what he had seen of them upon jury trials, they were excellent members of a very useful body of men, who deserved the thanks of the community, instead of the violence by which they had been assailed. It appeared to him that the unfortunate step which Ministers had taken, originated in an unfounded alarm. When the two Aldermen waited on the right hon. Baronet opposite, he should have asked them whether they had been deputed by the Court of Aldermen to make the communication which they had made, and what were the grounds upon which they had formed their opinion. That respectable individual, the Lord Mayor elect, had been made the scapegoat on this occasion. He was not a Member of that House, and had only expressed an opinion, in consequence, perhaps, of rumours which he might have heard, and which might not have reached other quarters. The Lord Mayor thought it right to make a communication to the Duke of Wellington on the subject, but the Government should not have acted upon that communication until they had first ascertained the grounds upon which it rested, and what reasons there were for thinking that the Duke of Wellington would be assailed. The late disgraceful attacks upon his Grace had been instigated by persons whose interest it was to make a tumult, and who consisted, principally of that same class which assailed the new police, and which unfortunately amounted to thousands in great towns; namely, pickpockets, and vagabonds of that description. But the unfortunate step which Ministers had taken in consequence of an unauthorized communication, had inflicted a deep wound on the loyalty of the country; and the effect of it on foreign nations was likely to be most disastrous to us, whatever might be the circumstances, whether of negotiation or hostility, in which we
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might be placed. As that step had plainly not originated with his Majesty himself, he must express a hope that his Majesty would name another, and an early day to honour the citizens of his good city of London with his company, and he had no doubt that his Majesty would receive the assembled thanks of a vast multitude on that occasion.
Sir R. Peelsaid, it had been assumed that the communication of the Lord Mayor elect had been the only one that had been received by his Majesty's Government, and the hon. Member opposite had said that his Majesty's Government should have ascertained the grounds upon which that communication was made. An interview had taken place between himself and the Lord Mayor elect after the receipt of that communication, and if the information which had reached his Majesty's Government on the subject had been solely derived from him, Ministers would certainly have paused before they proceeded to act upon it; but the information received from the Lord Mayor elect had been confirmed by communications from at least twenty other different quarters. He thought that the Lord Mayor elect had acted perfectly right, and he must repeat that Ministers had not come to any resolution till after an interview had been had with the Lord Mayor subsequent to the receipt of his communication. He must also take that opportunity of saying, that he could never forget the honourable and candid conduct of the learned Gentleman opposite, (Mr. Denman) that evening; which did not, however, surprise him (Sir R. Peel), knowing as he did in common with every other person the high and honourable character of that learned Gentleman. He was gratified but not astonished at hearing the sentiments which that learned Gentleman expressed respecting the attacks upon the Duke of Wellington, as well as the brutal attacks made upon humbler but very useful individuals. They were sentiments which might draw down upon him some unpopularity —he spoke of unpopularity amongst the low and the vulgar; but they were the sentiments of all respectable and good citizens in the state.

SLAVERY.
On the Order of the Day for the bringing up the Report of the Committee of Supply being read,
Mr. Broughamsaid, that in consequence of a notice of a Motion which had been

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given by Sir G. Murray for the 11th inst., with regard to slave-evidence, after he had already given notice of a motion upon the general question of Slavery for the 25th inst., he was determined to move his resolutions on Wednesday next, if that notice of the Colonial Secretary should not be withdrawn.
Sir R. Peelwas sure his right hon. friend had no intention to be discourteous to the hon. and learned Gentleman, and he could state that his right hon. friend had intimated to him before the meeting of Parliament, his intention to bring the subject under the notice of the House.
Mr. Keith Douglasrequested, that the hon. and learned Gentleman would consider, that there were many interests involved in the discussion: that it was not a question between him and the Colonial Secretary, and therefore it was necessary for him to come to a specific resolution and give a specific notice.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that he should be down early to-morrow, and would endeavour to arrange the matter with Sir G. Murray.

INTERFERENCE WITH AFFAIRS OF BELGIUM.
Lord Althorpsuggested, as it was most important that the country should be made acquainted with the plan of the Government with regard to the Civil List, that Mr. Hobhouse should postpone his motion for an Address relative to the interference of this country in the affairs of Belgium.
Mr. Hobhousewas most willing to take any suggestion from such a quarter, but the question was one of extreme importance; indeed with the exception of parliamentary reform, there was no question with regard to which the country was so desirous that the Parliament should at once come to a decision, and that they should pledge themselves in no manner whatever, to interfere in the affairs of foreign governments.
Mr. Broughamrecommended the postponement to the Friday following.
Mr. Hobhousedeclared it was his determination not to vote as a Member of Parliament a shilling to the Crown, if it was to be employed in interfering in the concerns of foreign States. He should probably fix his motion for Friday-week. He wished to take that opportunity to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, whether he
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had seen what had been stated in the newspapers, and, of course, correctly stated, as to conferences that were going on at the Foreign Office, to which the Austrian, Prussian, Russian, French, and English Ministers (the Dutch Ambassador had been invited, but was not able to go) were parties? If that were the case, he wished to know from the right hon. Baronet whether his Majesty's Ministers had assured themselves of the concurrence of the Provisional Government, established de facto in Belgium, in any arrangement to which those Powers in conference in Downing-street might come? He believed that he might assert, as a positive matter of fact, that the provisional government, which now held possession of the whole of Belgium, with the exception of the citadel of Antwerp and the fortress of Maestricht, would not permit any foreign Power to interfere by force or dictate to the Belgians what form of government they should select. He knew that to be the determination both of the government and the people, and he would recommend the right hon. Baronet to inquire from the parties themselves on the subject, and not to trust too much on such a point to the representations of any Ambassador. He did not wish to say any thing disrespectful of the French Ambassador, but there were circumstances connected with the history of Prince Talleyrand, which should make Government cautious in adopting any of the statements of that extraordinary man. He could assure the House that the Belgians would not submit to any dictation— French, Austrian, English or any other— with regard to the choice of their government. He was quite certain that those conferences in London, to which no Belgian envoy had been invited, so far from allaying the excitement in Belgium, would have the contrary effect. The Congress of Deputies which was to settle the form of constitution that Belgium was to adopt were to meet to-morrow for the first time; and after verifying their powers, they would proceed to the business of arranging their constitution and deciding the form of their government. Why, then, did not the Ministers wait until the decision of that Congress was known? He threw out that hint for the adoption of his Majesty's Government. The conferences in London would occasion the greatest excitement in Belgium, and the Belgians would not submit to be dictated to, as to their form of govern-

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ment. They would not submit to be told that they should not have a republic, or that they should have this or that Prince of the House of Nassau. It was possible that they would not come to the resolution of having a Republic, but, judging from what he had heard from some of the deputies, it was more than probable that they would choose a republican form of government; and the very insisting on their not doing so would confirm them in that determination.
Sir R. Peelsaid, the hon. Member in postponing his Motion, had taken occasion to make a considerable portion of his speech. He wondered why the hon. Member had assumed that it was intended, on the part of the Ministers parties to the conference, to dictate to the Belgians as to what form of government they should select, or out of what family they should choose a sovereign. The first step which had been taken on the part of the conference, and which he was confident would meet with the approbation of the House and the country, was to endeavour, but not by dictation, to procure on both sides a cessation of hostilities. With respect to Prince Talleyrand, he did not know the motives which the hon. Member had for cautioning Government against him. He was accredited here by the King of the French, as the representative of his government; as such he had been received, and he (Sir Robert Peel) must say, in reference to that eminent individual, that there was not the slightest want of confidence in, or attention towards him, on the part of his Majesty's Government.

INTERCOURSE BETWEEN THE WEST INDIES AND AMERICA.
Mr. Herriesmoved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Act regulating the Intercourse between the West-Indian Islands and the United States of America, and the House having resolved itself into a Committee, he went on to say, that his object was, to make some changes in the Act regulating the commercial intercourse between the West-Indian possessions of this country, and the United States, with a view to establish a permanent system applicable to that part of our trade. The Act he proposed to amend was that passed in the year 1825, under the auspices of the late Mr. Huskisson; and his Amendments would relate to the schedule of protecting duties
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on the productions of our own country, and our own colonies, in exchange with each other, as compared with the imports into those colonies from foreign States. An event of considerable importance to the empire at large, and unquestionably to certain parts of our colonial possessions, had recently occurred, to which it was indispensably necessary that he should advert, in order to explain to the Committee the views under which he proposed the change in the schedule to which he had adverted; that event was the final conclusion of the point, long contested between Great Britain and the United States, as to the degree and manner in which the latter were to prosecute their intercourse with the West Indies. He had the gratification of being able to state, that a topic of discussion between two nations which had occupied the longest time, and was of the most intricate character of any within memory, and which had been subject to many variations of pretension on both sides, had now been amicably, and, he trusted, for ever, terminated to the satisfaction of both parties. Further, he had to inform the Committee that the adjustment had taken place on the basis, and without the slightest departure from that basis, of the Act of 1825, which laid down definitively the principles on which Great Britain would allow to foreigners a participation in the trade of her West-Indian possessions. It was well known to all, that the dispute upon this point had been carried on almost from the date when the United States ceased to be a component part of the British empire. The views of their Government on this subject, in the first instance, were very limited, and they were then willing to accept, as a sort of boon, what they had since claimed as a right; the British Government was then, and had ever since been willing to admit the claim upon any reasonable grounds; but various causes, from time to time, arose to impede the conclusion of the question by amicable convention. From 1794 the proposals of the British Government were continually rejected by the United States, and up to 1810 it was found impossible to effect any arrangement. During the war which subsequently ensued, a positive interdiction existed until 1815, excepting in cases when the governors of colonies were empowered, from time to time, to open the ports of the islands to the shipping

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of the United States. On the conclusion of peace this country reverted to her original principle of the exclusive possession of the trade of her own colonies. From that date until the present, scarcely a single year had passed without an in-fructuous attempt on the one side or on the other to settle the question. By what was known by the name of Mr. Robinson's Act a fair opening seemed offered for the arrangement of the commercial intercourse between the United States and the British Colonies; but the measures adopted in consequence by the republic were certainly not such as to render the Statute effective for the purpose for which it was passed. Since that date, the claims advanced by the United States in 1824, had been entirely retracted, or it was obvious that it would have been impossible to have fully and completely arranged the matter in dispute. They had unconditionally withdrawn their unfounded pretensions, and this country now stood on the footing it occupied in 1825, and which it announced to all the world it was determined to maintain. He was bound to add, and he should not do justice to the United States if he did not, that it was impossible for any government to conduct a negotiation, in which the most important interests of two countries were deeply concerned, in a more frank, straight-forward, conciliatory, and therefore, as he thought, politic, wise, and prudent manner, than the United States had conducted this negotiation throughout. He believed that on this occasion neither party had had the slightest reason to complain of the other, but both had just grounds of satisfaction and mutual confidence. Certain documents connected with this important question had already been laid upon the Table of Parliament, and others, to complete the series, would, of course, in due time be communicated. It was fit to state, in order that no undue impression might be made upon the mind of any individual, that in concluding this last and final arrangement, the present ministers had adhered, without exception, to the principles laid down by their predecessors in office, as expressed in those documents. The American government had not only abandoned its former principles, but had also satisfied the British Government, by producing the enactment under which the revocation of those principles was to take effect; and
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lest any ambiguity should arise, the most distinct explanations had been required on the one side, and given on the other. This country was thus called upon, by every consideration, to admit the United States to a participation in that trade from which they had hitherto been excluded. The law of 1825 was framed with a view that all nations should participate in it; and it was only the conduct of the United States which had hitherto prevented them from enjoying the benefits which others had reaped from participation. It must be satisfactory to the House to learn that all those matters in difference were now finally and completely set at rest; but it was, at the same time, indispensably necessary to consider what changes had occurred since the enactment of the schedule of duties—whether anything had occurred since 1826 to render those duties unfit for the purpose for which they were intended; viz. the due protection of our own colonial interests. The effect of the existence of non-intercourse between the West Indies and the United States had been, to create new channels of trade, and to raise up a new class of claimants to the protection afforded by duties; it had produced a circuitous intercourse by means of our own North-American colonies; and whatever might have been the intention of this country in 1825, it was necessary now to tell the United States, that as they were the cause of the change, they must abide by the consequences. The Act of 1825 contained the conditions of equality on which the trade was to be carried on, and it also contained the schedule of protecting duties; but all parties were at all times given to understand that the British Government reserved to itself the right of altering those duties without responsibility to any foreign State. To avoid the possibility of mistake, the claim to exercise this right had been especially impressed upon the government of the United States; no objection could, therefore, be raised by any party to the course he now wished to pursue, and, least of all, by that government which, from time to time, had changed its tariff just as suited its temporary views. He meant, therefore, to propose some not immaterial alterations in the schedule of duties, the chief object of which would be, to secure the interests of the British North-American colonies from suffering in consequence of the confidence with which they had embarked in specu-

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lations, and made investments, under the belief that the present system was likely to be of longer continuance. Whether our colonists could claim this protection as a strict right was a different question, but there was no doubt that Parliament ought to feel an earnest solicitude for their interests. One object of the schedule of 1825 was, to encourage the introduction into the West Indies of articles from our North-American colonies: it had succeeded, but, under the change of circumstances, it was now the business of this country to take off part of the duty on foreign shipping, which, to the present moment, had existed, and had operated against the United States. The circuitous trade through our North-American colonies had been encouraged by this Government, and such, as he had already remarked, was the design of the schedule. It was true, that the lower descriptions of grain and flour had never yet passed through those colonies: they had been derived from the United States; but lumber of every description, wood and staves—of the greatest importance to the West Indies —had been conveyed thither entirely from our North - American colonies. The schedule would, therefore, give increased protection to the Canadas for the carriage of those articles, and a protecting duty would be imposed for the maintenance of their interests: that duty would be merely an increase of the impost upon lumber; it was already 7s. per thousand staves, and he should propose that it be raised to 10 s. 6d. per thousand. The planters would thus be furnished at as cheap a rate as they could reasonably expect, and the principle of the change would be, to afford that degree of protection which would balance the foreign supply, so as to give to the consumer as fair a competition as possible. The better mode would be, that he should lay before the House, in a printed form, a comparison between the two schedules, so that the House would at once perceive how the law stood now, and how he proposed that it should stand in future. That comparison was probably by this time printed; and the House would be aware that, in consequence of the distance, it was fit that no delay should occur, and that the new duties should come into operation at the date of the Order in Council which had already been issued. He could not refrain from observing, that these changes must oper-
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ate considerably to the advantage of this country: he did not know that they would operate to the disadvantage of the United States, and he doubted if any country permanently gained by the commercial injury of another State. It seemed to him that much would be gained on both sides—to the shipping interests at home, as well as to our North-American possessions. It was to him a matter of the highest satisfaction to mark the growing prosperity of those colonies; among other recent benefits, they were drawing coal in some parts of Canada, of a quality of peculiar excellence, which they were longing to be able to export to the United States. A system of free intercourse must always be preferable to restriction, and the system he was about to recommend was far more beneficial than that which had so long existed. Was such a state, was the entire suspension of the intercourse between our West-Indian colonies and the United States, to be compared to that which he now had the satisfaction to see established. There was an important feature by which that schedule was distinguished from all former ones. It was this—that, in whatever territory the commodities introduced from our West-Indian islands into the United States may have been produced, they were to be admitted without any additional duty. The hon. Gentleman then referred to the comparative tables for the proof of the advantageous terms under which the produce of our West-Indian colonies will henceforth be received in the United States, and concluded by moving, that it was the opinion of that committee, that, "no duties be imposed on commodities, introduced into his Majesty's Colonies in the West Indies, from the United States of America other than those described in the schedule."
Mr. George Robinsonwould not trouble the Committee with any remark on the schedule proposed for the sanction of the Committee by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. But with respect to the hon. Gentleman's assertion, that all parties interested in the commercial prosperity of England, would receive with satisfaction the announcement of the new footing on which the intercourse of our colonies in the West Indies with the United States of America has been placed, he (Mr. R.) could not help observing, that there was one party deeply interested in the question,

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which would hear with great regret the change which the British Government had thought proper to make in that intercourse. He acknowledged that this was done in strict accordance with the policy of a statesman, whose loss he (Mr. R.) deplored as much as any man—but he would ask the right hon. Gentleman, if there had not been a decided change in the commercial policy of the United States of America, since the measures introduced by Mr. Huskisson in the year 1825? He asked if it had not been the policy of those States, according to the tariff since enacted, to exclude from their territory every article of British production? He would ask if this were the time to make a change in our commercial policy in favour of the United States, when, by the Tariff of 1828, our productions were virtually shut out from their territories? He insisted that it had always been the object of the United States to obtain that uninterrupted access to our colonies in the West Indies which Ministers had now conceded, without any adequate compensation. In his view the effects of the present measures would be, to throw the whole trade with the West-India islands into the hands of the United States, to the exclusion of our North-American colonies. By those measures the whole business of the shipping at present employed in the carrying trade between the Canadas and the British possessions in the West Indies, would be transferred to the commercial navy of the United States. But the right hon. Gentleman had told them that they had now-made concessions which they refused in 1828. Those concessions, however, seemed to consist in their return to the duties existing before that time. When, by their refusal of the terms of reciprocity offered them, they found that their own commerce was injured, they strove to compensate their losses by the imposition of additional duties on British colonial produce. He remembered well, that the right hon. Gentleman formerly said, that the consequence of the American government persisting in that hostile policy might be, that we should be compelled to lay an impost on American raw produce introduced into this country; and the only question with the hon. Gentleman then was, whether we could impose such a duty consistently with our own interests? He recollected that in the correspondence between Mr. Canning and
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the minister of the United States (Mr. Galatin) that the former asserted, that, in consequence of the policy pursued by that government respecting the intercourse of the United States with our colonies in the West Indies, any alteration in duties to which American produce should be subjected, upon its importation into those colonies, must be effected by an Act of the British Legislature, and could not be effected by any treaty or convention. He (Mr. R.) insisted, that our colonies in North America had a right to complain that they were taken by surprise, when measures affecting their commercial interests so deeply were adopted suddenly, and without giving them any notice to prepare themselves for the change. At the time of the Treaty of Ghent, the merchants and other persons interested, were made acquainted before-hand with the changes which it was proposed to effect in the commercial relations of the States who were parties to that treaty. He would ask, why were British subjects in North America not considered entitled to a similar notice of changes seriously affecting their commercial interests? He gave the right hon. Gentleman credit for his not having disguised this important result of the proposed measure—namely, that the commercial interests of British subjects would suffer by it, and especially the shipping interest. He knew that it had been the policy of the government of the United States, in its anxiety to obtain for its commercial navy the advantages which it must derive from an extension of the intercourse between those States and our West-India colonies, to represent that both parties would gain by the extended intercourse. He never believed it. In consequence of the proximity of the West Indies to the coasts of the United States, every change in the West-Indian markets is known in the commercial towns of those States a month before the information can reach our North-American Colonies. In that way the Americans of the United States would have overwhelming advantages in the competition with the Canadian merchants. This measure, therefore, would go to destroy an important branch of our shipping interest, which had grown up within the last twenty years in New Britain, Nova Scotia, and the Canadas. The registered tonnage of the British West-India Islands, and of our North-American Colonies, had in one year in-

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creased by nearly 60,000 tons. The carriage heretofore had been exclusively by British ships, and that to the amount of one million tons, the greater part of which must, in the competition with the United States, to which the proposed measure would give rise, be transferred from the hands of our colonial merchants. In the course of a few years all the vessels engaged in the carrying trade between our North-American Colonies and the West-India islands must be laid up. That branch of the shipping interest, which hitherto had not suffered the same depression as the other branches of the British commercial navy, would be reduced to a condition of which it did not require the gift of prophecy to predict the results. Much stress had often of late years been laid, by hon. Gentlemen opposite, upon the improvements that had taken place in the Canadas. Immense sums of money had been granted by that. House to push the prosperity of those colonies still further; canals had been constructed in them at a vast expense to this country; British subjects had been encouraged to transfer large capitals from the United Kingdom to the colonies, by official descriptions of their prosperity. He would ask, then, if the British capital now invested in machinery, in shipping, and in the agricultural improvement of the Canadas, were to be totally sacrificed? He was sure, that the moment the news of the measure now announced should reach those colonies, all speculation would be suspended, and instead of affording an asylum to the superabundant part of our population, the distresses resulting from the measures would necessarily aggravate the distresses of the empire at large. When the consideration of the question was pressed on the Government, in the time of Mr. Canning and Lord Dudley, it was declared that they would not consent to entertain it, unless the Americans should revise the Tariff of 1826. It could not, therefore, be said that we were now making the commercial changes in accordance with the views of the two statesmen (Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson), alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Herries), unless the American government had altered their whole commercial policy since the time of those statesmen. Would Mr. Canning or Mr. Huskisson consent to such changes, after the hostility which the American government had manifested to
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our interests? At the very moment when we were making such concessions in favour of the United States, they were acting on decidedly an opposite principle. Their whole scale of duties was one of prohibition, as regards the importation of British colonial produce. They had shown no disposition to concur in the liberal arrangements of this Government. He had some interest in the West-India islands; but he could not see that they would be benefitted by those changes which must, at all events, operate injuriously upon the North-American colonies. The United States could supply those islands with every article with which they were at present supplied by Great Britain, and by the Canadas; and thus that trade would be sacrificed, which it was the most desirable to maintain—the trade which consists in an interchange of superfluities between one part of the empire and another. He felt satisfied that the West Indies, in supplying America with rum and sugar, must lose entirely the trade they at present enjoy with our possessions in North America, and a great part of their trade with the mother country. In all our negotiations with the United States, the latter have had the advantage. He did not mean to say, that our Ministers were less talented as diplomatists than those of America, but they had exhibited less knowledge of the relative commercial interests of the two countries. The whole policy of the United States towards us had been one of restriction and prohibitions, while our policy had been, to open our trade to them, first that with our American colonies, then that with the United Kingdom, and lastly, that with the West Indies. He was willing to hope, that the present measure might prove as advantageous as was anticipated by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries), but he feared that not only would our shipping-interest be injuriously affected by it, even the West-Indian interests, which it was proposed to benefit, would suffer from it a considerable loss. The changes, if made at all, ought at least to be gradual; for sudden transition must bring on extensive and irretrievable ruin. The right hon. Gentleman had said, that as soon as the House should ratify the schedule then laid before it, the ports of America would, according to the President's Message, be thrown open to the introduction of our colonial produce, and he had urged that we should not delay to

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fulfil the required condition, as, in the mean time, we are continually losing by the imposition of the old duties. He believed, however, that we should be much greater losers by the exclusion of British colonial commodities from the West Indies, which must be immediately occasioned by the influx of American produce, which would be poured into those islands, under advantages with which our merchants could not compete. He hoped that Government would allow time for those whose interests would be affected by the change, to prepare themselves for the result. The changes which had heretofore been made in the commercial policy of this country had been introduced so suddenly as to involve in ruin all those who were concerned with the branches of trade affected by the alterations. The policy of Mr. Canning was very different, as shewn in his correspondence with Mr. Galatin, from that now recommended to the House. Mr. Canning had declared, that whatever change should be made in the intercourse between the United States and the West Indies, should be effected by an Act of the Legislature, and not by negotiation between the two governments. That statesman had always denied the right of every foreign government to make our internal and municipal regulations the object of its stipulations. Contrary to that declaration, the House was then called on to confirm a treaty, which Government had already ratified with the United States, to alter our colonial regulations. The House was only consulted as to the rate of duty; the Government had already decided upon the principle. He concluded by assuring the House, that in the statements which he had made he had not been influenced by prejudice: and that he should be glad to be corrected, if he were mistaken in his views.
Mr. Keith Douglasconsidered, that every regulation tending to extend the intercourse between the two nations, Great Britain and the United States, must give mutual confidence to the merchants of both. Gentlemen must be aware, that in this attempt to protect the peculiar interests of our North-American colonies, that protection must be purchased at the expense of other parts of the British empire. In consequence of the distressed condition of the West-Indian interest for some time past, the Board of Trade had investigated fully all the burthens borne by these
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colonies, and had inquired into the causes of their distress. The result of that inquiry had been, that no countervailing duties could be imposed for their relief; and the House was, therefore, called on to lighten the burthen to which they were subjected for the benefit of other parts of the empire.
Mr. Herriesthought, that he had explained already that the West-Indian colonies would continue to receive without duty what they now received without paying a duty. The condition of the West-Indies must, at all events, be improved; and he did not conceive that the improvement would be effected at the expense of the North-American colonies. He could not agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite in his interpretation of the language of Mr. Canning. Having entered into treaties with the Spanish settlements in America, and with other countries, and when we found that the United States of America (the only country which was excluded from participation in the commerce with our colonies) were coming round, it did seem advisable to admit the United States to that trade on the same conditions on which it was enjoyed by other nations. The only question then to be considered was, whether the duties described in the schedule submitted to the House were sufficient for the protection of our colonial interests. If they were sufficient, the argument of the hon. Gentleman opposite fell to the ground. The principle on which they were founded was that of protection. The hon. member for Middlesex had said, that the proposed duties were too high; so that the whole question was now only one of degree.
Mr. Keith Douglasdid not wish to enter then into details, but he objected, for one thing, to the increase of duty on shingles.
Mr. Humesaid, that the Ministers had on the present occasion furnished an example of the folly of bringing forward a plan for the purpose of pleasing every body. They had succeeded in pleasing nobody. The West-Indians were dissatisfied, and the North-Americans were dissatisfied, and he was dissatisfied. The Government professed to act on the principle of free-trade; but the principle acted upon, in the practice, seemed to him to be that of making the colonies pay as dearly as possible for what they consumed. When a similar measure to that now before the

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House was brought forward in 1825, he resisted it. He deprecated the plan of inducing people to believe at any time, that Government would persevere in upholding such monopolies as that hitherto possessed by the Canadas in the trade with our West-Indian colonies. He deprecated the policy by which the several parts of the empire were considered as having not one common interest, but distinct and even conflicting interests. He would contend most strenuously against the principle of the arrangements which it was the object of the present Motion to carry into effect. He did most sincerely hope, that his Majesty's Government would see the necessity of laying open the whole of the trade. For his part he could not let any opportunity pass of entering his protest against the monopoly of the West Indies; and as to what the right hon. Gentleman had said respecting the improved disposition of the present American government to treat with us, he saw no reason to complain of the conduct of former governments; at least, he saw no grounds for the assertion that the present government of America was at all more disposed to treat than any of its predecessors. He could not help expressing his surprise that any one could suppose that it would be beneficial to this country to adopt the American Tariff; at the same time it was to be observed, that the American duties did not amount to 100 per cent, while, if such a statement could be made, the duty imposed by the Government of Great Britain amounted in some cases, to 1,200 per cent; on tobacco, as the House knew, there was a duty to that extent imposed. Was there any hope that the Government and the Legislature would at any time arrive at the conclusion that we ought to have every foreign commodity at the lowest possible rate? Convinced as he was of that important truth, he could not but deprecate anything in the nature of retaliation; and he, therefore, with the deepest regret, heard the late lamented Mr. Huskisson, contrary to his usual practice, and in direct opposition to those principles which he attained his highest distinction by advocating, say that circumstances might arise in which it would be for the interest and advantage of this country to retaliate on foreign countries by imposing heavy duties on their productions. Those duties were neither more nor less than bounties; and surely no inconsistency could be more gross than
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the advocacy of free-trade, and the maintenance of bounties. It was well understood that the effect of those duties was, to prevent intercourse between the United States and our West-India colonies; that object was to be effected by protecting duties. Now to every sort of protecting duty he was opposed. If any duty were required for the purpose of revenue, let it be imposed; but let no duty be laid on for the purpose of protection, or in any respect for the purpose of acting as a bounty, and, least of all, for the purposes of maintaining a monopoly. The time had arrived when all monopoly should cease, but he saw with regret that his Majesty's Government was not impressed with the truth and importance of that principle. The measure before the House was neither one thing nor another; it was at best robbing Peter to pay Paul, taking from the West-Indies to give to Canada, while the abolition of monopoly would equally benefit all parts of the empire.
Mr. Charles Grantobserved, that the subject before the House involved two questions—the first was, the great principle upon which the measure rested; the second was, what might be called its details, or rather the means by which the object in view was to be carried into effect. To the latter of these divisions he would not address himself; as to the former he had to observe, that in any discussion respecting it, he wished to look upon it as a great national and imperial question, not having for its object to benefit or injure any particular class, neither in our North-American nor our West-India colonies. They were not, as he conceived, then to enter upon a discussion of the principle established by the Act of 1822, and recognized by that of 1825 —recognized upon an enlarged basis. Against the re-opening of any such question, he begged most distinctly to enter his protest. It was not to be made a question then, or at any time, whether or not their colonies were to be preserved in a flourishing condition, or whether means were to be taken by the Government of Great Britain for preserving relations of peace and amity with a great commercial country, allied to us by birth, and that ought ever to be united by the remembrance of a kindred origin; it was not to be then made a question whether we ought or ought not to cultivate friendly intercourse with a great nation, that was expanding itself over the vast continent

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of America; it was not to be mooted whether the laws of God or of nature could make us the natural enemies of such a people. There was no regulation favourable to commerce that we could make, which was not as essential to our own welfare as it could be to the welfare of the United States. The hon. member for Middlesex had spoken of the difficulties attendant upon negotiations; but as he (Mr. Grant) trusted that the present measure would close the chapter of negotiation upon this subject, he should be most unwilling to call upon the Government to retrace its steps, or renew discussions which he considered as so happily closed. The objects of the United States, as he apprehended them, had been most incorrectly stated in the course of that discussion; their demand was nothing less than requiring freedom to trade with our colonies upon the same terms as the mother country traded with those colonies. On three or four separate occasions the principle was avowed and acted on, both in 1822 and 1823. The object appeared to be, to induce us to abandon the advantages which we derived from the possession of colonies. It was not, however, to be endured, that any country should attempt to compel this to adopt any particular code of commerce, or to dictate to us the manner in which we were to deal with our own municipal regulations; but the period had at length arrived when the negotiation was to be closed, and it would be for the honour and interest of this country neither to suffer its dignity to be offended with impunity on the one hand, nor, upon the other, to cherish any acrimonious or vindictive feeling. He certainly regretted that any such feeling had existed between the two countries, and he was proportionally glad that a better feeling was growing up, and the restrictive system connected with it was in a fair way to be abolished. It was due to the Government of the country, however, to say, that it never opposed removing those restrictions, but it wisely refused to pledge itself, on the supposition that the American legislature might repent its noxious and peculiar restrictions. He regretted, certainly, that, in the execution of a measure justified by sound principles, and necessary to the West-India islands, any other part of his Majesty's dominions should suffer. He felt for the situation of the Canadians; at the same time he was not prepared to say that we ought to sacrifice, for the interest
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of Canada, the general interest of the colonies. He doubted whether the interest of Canada was so materially promoted by the restrictive system as some Gentlemen supposed. The right hon. Gentleman had said, that for twenty years we had been nursing Canada in a peculiar manner, and he seemed anxious that that colony should not have it in its power to say that it was without an advocate, and without a protector. But our excessive care had been more injurious than neglect. We had undertaken to encourage a peculiar colony, at an enormous expense to every other. The interdict now to be removed had, in some degree, had the effect of co-operating to produce that result. We had given heavy bounties on a particular species of production, and now we were annoyed by our own imprudence, and to continue those bounties longer would only render it more difficult and more dangerous to get rid of them hereafter. For the sake of Canada herself, therefore, the sooner we got rid of the system the better. As to the duties, he must observe, that peculiar injury had been inflicted on the West Indies. His right hon. friend had stated, that his principle of protection was, to hold the balance as even as possible. This was as much as to say, to give as little relief as possible. These were the objections he felt, but he must, at the same time, express his satisfaction as to the character of the measure itself.
Mr. Bernalsaid, it was quite a mistake to suppose that the present measure was anything in the nature of a boon; for it was not to be forgotten that the West Indies now derived a great portion of their staves and lumber from the United States, through the neutral island of St. Thomas. The consequence of the restrictions, however, had been, that the Americans would not take our rum and sugar, but required to be paid in hard cash. They had, since the restriction, established distilleries of their own, and no longer took the produce of the West-India islands. The measure was in no respect either a partial or a general concession; and to the West-India islands was merely equitable.
Mr. Herriesexplained, that he never asserted that it was a boon. The present measure arose out of a sincere desire on the part of his Majesty's Government to close the negotiation with the United States upon the broad principles of justice. It was never asserted, for a moment, that

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the Government had any other object in view than protection in framing the schedule; it never was done for fiscal purposes. Though averse from protection in the abstract, he could not, in the present instance, consider it in any other light than as highly expedient.
Mr. Warburtonput it to the House whether 100 per cent ad valorem was a reasonable and moderate protection? That, however, was the protection given to the produce of Canada by this measure. The protection, therefore, which the right hon. Gentleman had alleged to be but moderate, was contrary to the soundest principles of political economy, inasmuch as it was a bounty given to the grower of the dearest article, at the expense of the consumer, who could procure it at a cheaper rate elsewhere but for the protection. He had frequently brought the subject of the loss to the country of our undue encouragement of the Canada timber-trade before the House, with the hope of inducing Ministers to institute an inquiry into it, with a view to a remedy, and should, in the present Session—say the 2nd of December—move for a Select Committee on it, unless some more influential Member took the matter upon him. He confessed, however, as he was an interested party, he should much rather see the matter in the hands of Ministers than undertake the task himself.
Mr. Herriessaid, the Committee to inquire into the affairs of Canada would probably be revived, which would answer all useful purposes.
Resolution agreed to.

SHERIFFS (IRELAND).
Sir H. Hardingemoved for leave to bring in a Bill for improving the Administration of Justice in Ireland. The Bill would relate chiefly to the office of Sheriff: it was one which had been introduced in the last Parliament, and which, owing to the abrupt manner in which the Session terminated, was dropped. The Bill which he intended to introduce would differ only in merely technical matters, and when it came to be printed, hon. Members would see, that the Bill was calculated to promote the object proposed; namely, an improvement in the Administration of Justice in Ireland, and for the better regulation of the office of Sheriff in Ireland.
Mr. Ricehoped some improvement would be effected in the mode of appoint-
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ing Sheriffs in towns corporate. It was a reproach to the Irish Members that the Report upon the subject in question had remained so long a dead letter—they had now made a beginning, and he hoped that it would energetically be followed up. The abuses growing out of the present system were enormous, and reform was absolutely necessary.
Sir H. Hardingesaid, that though there might be abuses in towns corporate, yet the Report did not allude to that subject.
Leave given.

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. For the abolition of Slavery, by Earl GROSVENOR, from Wiltshire:—By the Duke of GLOUCBSTER, from Winterslow, Malton, and four other places:—By the Earl of ELDON, from two Congregations of Wesleyans in Newcastle-on-Tyne:—By the Earl of CHICHESTER, from Hastings, and another place in Sussex:—By Lord CAWDOH, from the Wesleyans of Pembrokeshire:—By the Bishop of London, from Chester, and various other places:—By the Bishop of WINCHESTER, from Warminster, and several places in Wiltshire:—By Lord WHARNCLIFFE, from the Independent Congregations of Wortley, near Leeds, of Dent, of Huddersfield, and nineteen other places in Yorkshire.
Lord TENTERDEN laid on the Table five Bills; viz. a Bill to regulate the method of taking Arbitrations: a Bill to enable Courts of Law to order the Examination of Witnesses: a Bill to improve the proceedings in Prohibition and Writs of Mandamus: a Bill to enable Courts of Law to give relief, &c.: and a Bill for the more speedy judgment and execution in Actions brought at Westminster, which he had framed in compliance with recommendations contained in the second Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the Common Law.
The Earl of ELDON laid on the Table a Bill to amend the Bankrupt Laws.

BELGIUM.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he rose, in pursuance of notice given by him the other evening, to move for a Copy of a Document which he thought might by some possibility throw further light on the connection of this country with Belgium. In the preamble to the treaty, signed by the Plenipotentiaries of the great Powers, parties to the formation of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, he found reference made to a Pro-
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tocol of a conference held previously on this subject, which Protocol contained the stipulations and conditions on which the Prince of Orange accepted the Sovereignty of Belgium and Holland, and which Protocol is there stated to have been delivered by the Earl of Clancarty to the accredited agent of the Prince, before the signing of the treaty. This protocol was not to be found among the papers laid upon the Table of the House; and although it might not contain anything of importance, yet he thought that at such a moment as the present, Parliament and the country should be fully satisfied that there was no obligation or anything that could imply obligation for Great Britain to interfere in the affairs of Belgium appearing on the face of any of the treaties connected with the formation of the kingdom of the Netherlands. He had examined with great satisfaction the treaty laid on their Lordships' Table, with reference to that subject, and he had heard with still greater satisfaction, that on the terms of that treaty rested the whole of the question of interference, because he could not find in the whole of it the shadow of a shade of anything which could impose on us the duty of interfering in any manner whatever in the affairs of the Netherlands, or of guaranteeing any particular form of Government in that country. If, then, there were no duties imposed by treaties, he thought that no consideration of interest or of expediency could possibly arise which would justify or induce this country to adopt any other course than that of total abstinence from all interference. He did not say this because he was indifferent to the condition of Belgium, or because he thought the situation of that country might not have a material effect on the peace of Europe. He felt that the peace of Europe depended much on the permanent character of the Government, and the security of the institutions, under which the inhabitants of Belgium might ultimately place themselves. The necessity, however, of abstaining from interference in the arrangements of the people of France—a people who had shown a moderation in the hour of victory, and a disinterestedness in their whole conduct, which made them a fit example for the world. The necessity of leaving them to uphold the institutions of their choice had been fully acknowledged; and it was because he felt the same ne-

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cessity with respect to the Belgians, that he thought the perfect settlement of the affairs of both the one and the other would be best forwarded by abstinence on the part of this country from the appearance of all intervention, even by way of advice, unless it was required by the people of that country themselves. It was for this reason that he saw with regret opinions expressed in the Speech from the Throne, on the subject of the good government of Belgium—a government with which this country had nothing to do, excepting so far as it might be necessary to provide, during its changes, for the security of our own. He must, therefore, repeat his desire to ascertain from the Protocol, whether there was anything in it binding England to interference beyond the terms of the treaty. He knew there was a guarantee for the integrity of certain parts of the Prussian provinces—whether fortunately or unfortunately for this country, he would not then inquire; but, with respect to Belgium, he thought the public mind could not be too fully satisfied.
The Earl of Aberdeenhad no objection to produce the document which the noble Marquis required, but he felt it necessary to repeat his assertion, that neither in it nor in any other was there to be found any arrangement or obligation different from that which was to be found expressed in the eight articles of the treaty of Vienna. He would not enter into the question of interference as commented on by the noble Marquis, except for the purpose of observing, that the Government contemplated no interference at the present moment but an amicable one, although he did not put such a construction on the treaty as to say that no events could take place which would warrant the intervention of England. The interests of this country were at all times so intimately connected with those of the Netherlands, that it was impossible for the Government to look with indifference at the situation in which they were placed. He had already stated, most distinctly, that the object of all interferences on the part of England were amicable, and such as might be expected from a State situated as it was with regard to the Netherlands; and he now repeated, that no other description of interference was contemplated.
The Marquis of Londonderry,having differed from the noble Earl (Earl Aber-
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deen) during the greater part of the last Session, thought it but justice to him now to declare, that he cordially approved of the determination which that noble Lord evinced to preserve the faith of the treaties to which we were pledged. He had heard with great pain the eulogium pronounced by the noble Marquis on the revolution of France. Did the noble Marquis blind himself to the fact that that revolution was only commencing, and that it might ere long inundate Europe with blood? How noble Lords could come down to the House, and pronounce eulogiums on such a state of things, he was at a loss to conceive. If his information was correct, the Chamber of Deputies of that country had annihilated one-half of the Chamber of Peers, and when the Government appointed by it showed a disposition to extend mercy to persons who had been perhaps misguided, or had misruled, it was told that the mob would not allow the National Guard to do their duty, and that that Guard would open their ranks, and let the mob pass, sooner than see mercy extended to the prisoners. He (Lord Londonderry) thought there was blood behind the revolution, and if it extended to Belgium, what, then, would become of the peace of Europe. He was convinced that the policy of this country was, to preserve a decided and cordial Union with those Allies who had for twenty years been united with us in our struggles to obtain peace, and he was convinced that by the preservation of that Union they might bid defiance to all the mischief which threatened them abroad. Looking at the affairs at home, he confessed himself a coward, for he looked with fearful apprehension at the signs of the times. It was the duty of that House, however, to stand by the Throne and the Executive, and if the noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey), for whose talents he had all his life preserved the highest admiration—if that noble Lord and the aristocracy would stand by the Throne, the opinions of the fomenters of mischief would soon cease to make themselves heard, and their power moulder into dust. A noble Earl (Lord Winchilsea) had the other evening spoken of the party of which he was the organ.
The Duke of Richmondrose to order. The noble Marquis was alluding to the statements of a noble Lord not present, and had mistaken he believed the expression of the noble Earl
The Marquis of Londonderryadmitted he was wrong in alluding to the noble Earl in his absence; but he would merely say now, that the noble Earl had no right to claim for himself, or his party, the name of being real Tories. The real Tories of the country were the supporters of Government. And the noble Earl's (Winchilsea's) party had no better title to that name than any other noble Lords. He (Lord Londonderry) had said more than he meant to say; but his feelings carried him away. It was impossible not to feel excited on such a subject, and he hoped that those who really have property, and who have interests at stake in the country, will stand by the Government in the crisis in which it is placed.
The Duke of Richmonddid not think it necessary to say much in reply to the noble Marquis, after he had admitted, that his feelings carried him away; but he confessed, that he could not avoid pointing out the unjustifiable course the noble Marquis was pursuing in alluding to the opinions of the noble Earl in his absence, opinions which would not bear the construction put on them by the noble Marquis; for he, the noble Earl, alluded to, had merely spoken of his opinions as those of an individual. He had also felt it necessary to interrupt the noble Marquis, because he was adopting the unparliamentary course of alluding to what passed in the debate on a former occasion. Perceiving how firm an adherent and supporter of the Government the noble Marquis had proved himself that night, and recollecting the eloquence he had displayed throughout the whole of last Session against the same Government, on the subject of the boundaries of Greece, he (the Duke of Richmond) would say, with perfect courtesy, to the noble Marquis, that he should not have thought it worth his while to reply to the speech he had just heard, was it not that the noble Marquis had thought proper to call on all those who really possessed property to rally round the Throne and the Government. He must say, in answer to that call, that the Government, to deserve support, should take care, by its acts and expressions, to raise no needless alarm among the people of England. He believed, when the hour of danger came, that the people would rally round the Throne; but he would say also, that the only way for the Throne and the Government to make that rally perfectly
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secure, was to form a Government which really possessed the confidence of the country. It was not by writing letters to Lord Mayors, declaring that there was danger in his Majesty's going to dine with the citizens of London; it was not by raising unnecessary apprehensions that the confidence of the people was to be secured. The alarm consequent upon the writing of that letter, unless it could be explained by something which had not yet been stated, would extend to the remotest corner of the kingdom; but he felt confident, notwithstanding, that the King would reign in the hearts of his people; and he would stake his property and his life—he would stake his character and his very existence—that the Sovereign might go if he pleased into the heart of his City of London without the assistance of police or the protection of guards, and be borne along amidst the joyous cheers of a loving and delighted people. As to the distinction taken by the noble Marquis between the name of Whig and Tory, he knew of none such in that House, but he did know, that every honest man would rally round those whom they found best calculated to support the interest of the people, and to uphold the dignity of the Throne. He would say one word before he sat down, on the subject of a Reform in Parliament, which had been alluded to by the noble Earl (Grosvenor). He was no friend to a radical change in the system of Representation, but he thought some change necessary in the existing state of opinions; and although he would not then state to what extent he thought that change ought to go, he promised to give any proposition on that subject which might be brought before the House his best attention. He would be one of the last to yield to the clamours of the mob; but he agreed with those who thought that some reform was necessary, and he was prepared to concede the demands of the people. The noble Duke concluded by expressing a hope that the noble Marquis would come better prepared next time he felt it necessary to read the House a lesson.
The Marquis of Londonderryrepeated his regret, that he had alluded to the noble Earl in his absence; and he thought the noble Duke ought to consider that sufficient.
The Duke of Wellington;—Before I proceed to address myself to the subject

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before the House, I feel it necessary to say, that I am under great obligations to the noble Duke for putting it in my power to explain the circumstances of the letter to which he has alluded. Before I begin, however, I wish to state, that I concur in the opinion delivered by the noble Duke, that his Majesty is the most popular Sovereign that ever reigned in this country; and, still more, that he is a Sovereign whose public and private conduct most deserves the popularity which he has obtained. The letter, however, which was last night written by the Secretary of State, by command of his Majesty, to the Lord Mayor, was not in any manner connected with that popularity; for his Majesty had never the slightest doubt of the attachment and loyalty of all the respectable portion of the citizens and inhabitants of the metropolis. I must begin, however, first of all, by putting your Lordships in possession of a letter relating to myself, which I received the day before yesterday, from the gentleman holding the situation of Lord Mayor Elect for the City of London. That letter is as follows:—
"From the station of Lord Mayor, to which I have been elected, numberless communications are made to me, both personally and by letter, in reference to the 9th, and it is on that account I take the liberty of addressing your Grace. Although the feelings of all the respectable citizens of London are decidedly loyal, yet it cannot but be known there are, both in London as well as the country, a set of desperate and abandoned characters who are anxious to avail themselves of any circumstance to create tumult and confusion, while all of any respectability in the City are vying with each other to testify their loyalty on the occasion. From what I learn, it is the intention of some of the desperate characters alluded to, to take the opportunity of making an attack on your Grace's person on your approach to the Hall. Every exertion on my part shall be used to make the best possible arrangement in the City; but should any sudden and violent attack be made in one quarter, any civil force alone might not be sufficiently effectual, and I should not be doing my duty, after what I have heard, did I not take the liberty of suggesting to your Grace the propriety of your coming strongly and sufficiently guarded. I probably may be considered giving you needless trouble, but the respect which I, as well as every person who really wishes the welfare of the country, must have for your Grace, and the gratitude we owe you, has induced me to adopt this course."
Hence, although I felt myself personally
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to be placed under the same protection of the laws as any other subject in the kingdom, I did not think that I was justified in making confusion and tumult in the procession which was to attend his Majesty, by adopting the advice of the writer of this letter, and seeking protection from the civil and military power in such a way as would be likely to produce that very disturbance which all men were so anxious to avoid. Under these circumstances, when I received the letter I have referred to, I felt it my duty to refrain from attending at the City feast. My Lords, I communicated this determination to my colleagues, and we concluded on that occasion, from that letter, from other letters which I had received, and from letters received by my right hon. friend, the Secretary of State, on the same subject, that it was very possible that a tumult would occur in the City on the occasion of his Majesty's visit; and we thought it our duty to recommend his Majesty to postpone his visit. And we were induced to come to this determination in consequence of all the information we received of various descriptions. We have no doubt whatever, from the information conveyed to us from a variety of quarters—information on which we could rely—that an attack would be made on the police— that there was a plan laid to extinguish the lights, and that a variety of attempts would be made to excite riot and disorder. My Lords, we had no doubt that we should know how to suppress those tumults; but I must say that I considered it far preferable not to hazard the risk of riot and confusion occurring in the presence of the Sovereign, and we therefore recommended the Sovereign not to put himself in a situation to be the witness of such tumults. My Lords, it was solely on this view that we recommended his Majesty to postpone his visit, as I conceive it impossible that such confusion and tumult should exist, without ending in bloodshed. The people, my Lords, would be collected together to witness a pageant—the pageant of his Majesty going in state to visit the Corporation of the City of London, and confer on the Lord Mayor the honour of dining with him. His Majesty and his Ministers, the great Officers of State, and the foreign Ambassadors, could not go to the City of London without causing a great collection of people, and making it very probable that riot and confusion would take

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place. I say, my Lords, that there was a great chance—and a very great chance— that there would arise serious consequences to his Majesty's subjects, and therefore we recommended his Majesty not to go. The noble Duke (Richmond) has asked if the news of disorder and tumult was confined to the City of London, and if there were apprehensions of riot in other places? There were not. It was sufficient for me to know that there were such apprehensions in the City. With some parts of the country, other noble Lords must be better acquainted than I am. The noble Duke himself must know more than I do, as to the disposition of the people in Sussex. In Surrey and one or two other counties, as is known to your Lordships, there have been some disorders; there has been some stoppage of work in Lancashire, but I know nothing beyond these to disturb the national tranquillity at this moment. At the same time I cannot doubt the truth of the information communicated by the Lord Mayor Elect, namely, that there would have been confusion and tumult in the City had the pageant taken place. After having said so much, I shall only add that I have no objection whatever to produce the document asked for by the noble Marquis; and I can assure your Lordships, that there is no inclination in the Government of the country, or any other government that I am acquainted with, to do anything which is likely to disturb the peace of Europe.
The Earl of Shrewsburystated, that he conceived the present times were full of danger; and he saw no better means of meeting those dangers than for their Lordships cordially to unite among themselves and promote the great cause of reform. Unless that were promoted, and unless something were done to meet the wishes of the people, he doubted whether they would support the Government. He was happy to observe that the unpopularity which was provoking riots was only that of the Administration, and it was, in his opinion, a great misfortune that the affairs of the country were administered—by a great man certainly, but a man who was only great as a soldier. The people were sensible of the generous character of the Sovereign, but that did not extend its influence to the Administration. It was clear from what had been just stated by the noble Duke, that the present was not a time to trifle with the feelings of the
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people; or to administer the Government, which ought to be administered for the benefit of all, for the benefit of a few. Ministers seemed, indeed, to have no other object in view than to perpetuate their own power. This was, however, no time to trifle with the people. They ought to give way to some more vigorous Statesmen, who would find some more efficacious mode of relieving the people, than taking off taxes that amounted to one farthing a head; and unless some more effectual relief were given them—unless there was a large reduction of expenditure —unless the people were restored to their just share in the management of their own concerns, of which the revolutions of time had deprived them—unless the Government did ample justice to the people, it would not secure, or rather would not regain the confidence of the people, and would never be able to establish the prosperity of the country on a solid foundation. Much had been said about agitators and reformers, and much obloquy had been cast on an individual who was a distinguished agitator and reformer; but on that subject he entertained an opinion, he was afraid, very different from most of their Lordships. The noble Earl then pronounced a spirited eulogium on Mr. O'Connell, whose agitation had crowned the cause of religious liberty with its latest and its greatest triumph; and whose great and commanding genius had restored calm to an irritated nation, and brought an infuriated multitude to listen to the dictates of reason, and obey the voice of the understanding. He concluded by declaring that the Union between England and Ireland had degraded the latter to a province, and that there could be no hope that she would enjoy permanent tranquillity till she possessed a resident gentry, who spent their rents in the country, and cultivated with their people the relations of kindness and affection.
The Marquis of Clanricardemeant to address the few observations he should offer to the House, exclusively to the extraordinary conduct of his Majesty's Ministers in the advice they had given. He had heard the explanation of the noble Duke with the greatest horror. The noble Duke said, he had waited with the greatest impatience for an opportunity to justify himself; and he hoped that the noble Duke would have been able to do away with the panic which he had caused, and

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the terror which he had inspired, and restore that property which confidence in him had destroyed. What had he done? He had advised his Majesty not to trust himself in public among his subjects. He had thrown a slur on the City of London —he had thrown a slur on the nation— and he had thrown a slur on the good name of his Majesty. These were the consequences of his conduct. He had caused a loss of property, also, to a considerable amount. The funds had fallen three per cent that day, which had caused a serious loss of property to some persons; and if the noble Duke was determined to retain power at all hazards, he did not believe that the fundholders would ever recover their losses. And what, he would ask, was the excuse for all this? The noble Duke, forsooth, was unpopular. Was that news first known on Saturday? Was there a man amongst their Lordships who did not know that before? Had not the noble Duke received painful evidence of that for some time? The pageant, it was said, would collect a great crowd; but what would be said if it did not? If it were only an ordinary dinner—if no shops were shut—if the people were not to assemble to do honour to the Sovereign—if there were no crowd—would not that be a slight to the Sovereign? But how was it that all these hazards were not known before? Was it that the noble Duke had no information concerning the state of the people, and was he now, as he was last Session, completely ignorant of all the circumstances which caused excitement in the country? After all, he had heard of nothing to deter his Majesty from going to the City, except the attempt on the noble Duke. That was a good reason for the noble Duke not going to the City of London. Against such an attempt nobody would more seriously contend than he would—honouring the Duke as he did, as a military man, though as a Minister he should always oppose him; but to the Government and to the country his conduct was equally detrimental There was, perhaps, no person who would not suffer in some degree from the alarm sounded by the noble Duke. The news would be spread to distant parts that something serious had happened in London. It was known that a large military force had been drawn round London, and with that knowledge the communication made to the City of London would have gone forth to the
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country without one word of explanation. It would be sent through the whole country, that the King did not dare trust himself in the City of London. He believed that the King might go in safety to every part of the City like one of the common people, and without the least chance of being insulted. Of this strange proceeding the noble Duke had given no better explanation than was afforded by the letter he had received from the Lord Mayor. His conduct must lower the Administration in the eyes of the country, and show that in minute matters of detail, as well as in the more comprehensive duties of Government, his Majesty's present Ministers wanted capacity to administer the affairs of the country.
Earl Greyaddressed their Lordships somewhat as follows:—I understand, my Lords, with satisfaction, from the answer of the noble Earl (Aberdeen), that the protocol contains no sensible variations from the general treaty, or the particular conditions. So far every thing is satisfactory. The noble Earl, too, has signified his intention of laying the protocol before your Lordships, which will be of some interest to this part of the subject. I cannot, however, refrain from saying, after hearing what I have this night heard, relative to those treaties, that what fell from the noble Duke on a former occasion gave me considerable surprise, and I must repeat the conviction which I formerly mentioned—a conviction which my noble friend has already expressed much better than I can—a conviction, my Lords, that by those treaties no obligation whatever is imposed on the country; we have contracted no engagement whatever to interfere with the internal affairs of the government of the Netherlands. All interference on that subject is left by these treaties to be determined by the usual considerations, and by what of policy and expediency is due to an independent nation. We are not bound to interfere by any obligation whatever. If we are not so bound, I repeat, my Lords, with my noble friend, that, in my opinion, sound policy, justice, and respect for the independence of other people, as well as regard for the interest of this country, enjoin us on the present occasion not to interfere with the internal affairs of Belgium. As this is my opinion, I cannot avoid feeling surprise at what was stated by the noble Earl, that the Government only contemplated amicable interference, such as would be bene-

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ficial to the Low Countries, and conducive to the interests of Great Britain; for that interference, in times like the present, is contrary to the policy usually pursued by this country, must be pernicious to its interests, and can only lead to the most dangerous results. Having said this, I must refer to what has been said by my noble friend (the Marquis of Londonderry)—if he will allow me to call him so, and to whom, at least, I must express my gratitude for the kind manner in which he spoke of me; but from what the noble Marquis said, he seems to think that I am friendly and favorable to revolutions, and disposed to encourage them. I certainly did, my Lords, express my approbation of the conduct of the French people on a former occasion, but, if it is necessary to recall to your Lordships' recollection what fell from so humble an individual as myself, I took care to state, that all revolutions were in themselves bad, and could only be justified by a serious and plain necessity; but if they are necessary, my Lords, I, for one, think we ought not to be deterred from making a revolution, if without that we cannot maintain or preserve our liberties. I approve of the late French revolution, because I think it was necessary, by the fatal attempt of the government to interfere with the liberties of the people—I say, a fatal attempt, my Lords, which, in their situation, left the French people no other chance but that of absolute submission or open resistance. On this principle I approve of the French revolution, admiring the great courage of the people in achieving the victory, and their great generosity after the contest was over. I hope that the Ministers will agree with me, and as they have showed respect to the government of France, that they will show respect to the people of Belgium, by which alone I think they will ensure the peace of this country, and the peace of Europe. So much, my Lords, with reference to what occurred in the early part of the evening; and I now pass to a subject of more immediate importance—of more interest to the House, and one on which its attention has been lately fixed. I must say, that when I first read the letter this morning which appeared in the public prints—I must own that I felt something like humiliation—I felt the fullest regret and disappointment that such a letter was thought necessary by the Government,
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being persuaded that it would not issue such a letter without first making inquiries, and obtaining information that the letter was necessary. Is this a moment to circulate accounts of public dangers unnecessarily? The noble Duke will, I am sure, concur with me, that such reports much increase the difficulties under which the country labours. We are engaged at present in difficult, and even doubtful negotiations abroad, and such scenes will not contribute to their success. They arc not likely to make foreign Powers respect the British Ministry. Such a state of things will not excite respect for the country abroad, or persuade foreign Powers that the Ministry are better able to fulfil their engagements than when they expect to be supported by a loyal people. I felt something like humiliation, something like disappointment and regret, when I saw the announcement, though I knew nothing of the circumstances, of which I felt assured the Ministers were aware, or they would never recommend such an important step. I felt assured that they must possess some information of which I knew nothing. Under all these painful feelings, I found one topic of consolation in its being avowed and declared, that this measure was not in any manner necessary to provide for the safety of his Majesty. I feel assured, as a noble Lord expressed himself on a former occasion, that if ever a Monarch was firmly seated in the hearts of his people, it is the Sovereign who at present sits on the Throne of these realms. For him, personally, there was no apprehension of danger; and for him, it was stated by the noble Duke, that no apprehension was felt. The noble Duke has stated, however, on the authority of the letter from the Lord Mayor elect, that there was some danger of an attack on the person of the noble Duke. I abhor all such attacks; and were I the political enemy of the noble Duke, which I am not, I should readily place myself in any situation in which my services could defend the noble Duke from any such attacks, which I consider as un-English in their character, as they are unmanly and ungenerous. I deprecate all such attacks, and I see with regret any such feelings arise in his Majesty's subjects. From the threats against the noble Duke, I think he took a wise resolution in abstaining from filling his place at the ceremony. The danger of the noble Duke is, however, the

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prominent feature of the Lord Mayor's letter; it contains no proof of any danger which ought to have prevented his Majesty from attending in the City. Some other apprehensions are referred to— it is loosely stated that placards, threatening riots, had been exhibited; that the police was to be attacked; that some ill-affected persons were prepared to make confusion; and that at night there was a great probability that they would make tumults and disorders. My Lords, I say all this is very loose, for at what time does a great town like this metropolis not contain among the mass of its inhabitants many evil-disposed spirits, and to whom large assemblages of the people will not give an opportunity of committing many evil acts, and creating riot and disorder? If the noble Duke waits till there is no danger of any riots occurring, his Majesty will never be able to show himself to his admiring people, for there can never be a considerable number of the people assembled on any public occasion when his Majesty may not be exposed to similar riots. Nothing, therefore, is, I think, more unsatisfactory than the noble Duke's explanation. If such a communication as that letter were sent to me, I should make it my first business to inquire into all the circumstances of the case, and I should not rely implicitly on the statement of any Lord Mayor. My Lords, we have seen on a former occasion a Lord Mayor, who claimed a great reputation for his temerity, but whose principal failing was, I believe, his timidity, who made false representations under its influence, relative to the riots of 1780, and who was, I believe, prosecuted for that in a Court of Justice. Remembering this, my Lords, and knowing nothing of the character of the Lord Mayor elect, who may be inclined to magnify dangers, and possibly anticipate a disturbance without any good reason, I should have made a diligent inquiry into all the circumstances on which he founded his opinion. I took it for granted that the noble Duke must have made such inquiries, that he was convinced the Lord Mayor had not seen objects in a false light; and that he was satisfied, from the information he had received, that there was no other way to avoid danger than the advice he had given to his Majesty. If this were the case, I could make no objection to his conduct. On this subject I have not much
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information; but since I came into the House I have heard something of the proceedings of the Court of Aldermen, which makes me inclined to think that the circumstances of the case have not received due consideration. The Court of Aldermen has examined the subject, and has come to the resolution, that every precaution had been taken—that there was no cause to apprehend any real danger to his Majesty, and that the Lord Mayor was not authorised to make the communication he had made to his Majesty's Government. This information has been derived from authority, and has been delivered from the Court of Aldermen in another place. Under such circumstances, I think the advice which has been given to his Majesty is not justified. I could not help saying this, but more than this I will not say. I repeat, that the advice given to the Crown was not authorised by a sound judgment. I am consoled by reflecting, that the unpopularity mentioned does not affect the Sovereign, but only the noble Duke. The existence of that feeling is not unaccountable; but any overt acts resulting from it I shall always discountenance. For the rest, my Lords, I see no foundation for any extreme alarm as to the situation of the country, and nothing to make me regard our domestic peace as likely to be interrupted.
The Duke of Wellington,in explanation, was understood to apologize for not having gone further into the subject. He had, however, referred to other letters besides that from the Lord Mayor. Their Lordships would recollect, that in the letter of the Lord Mayor it was stated that he could not depend on the civil power for preserving peace, though all proper measures had been adopted. The information he had received from a variety of quarters convinced him that it was intended to attack the police. He had been asked if his Majesty could not proceed to every part of the town without being protected by the police? His Majesty certainly could; but in this case his Majesty was not to proceed alone. There was to be a procession, which required that the streets should be kept clear for fourteen or sixteen hours out of the twenty-four. A great number of persons would be collected in one spot, and if an attack were made on the police, it would be necessary, for the safety of their lives, to call in the interference of the military. He wished to

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ask if the Government ought not to take such measures of precaution? Was it fit, he would also ask, when his Majesty went to visit the Lord Mayor, that there should be a battle in the streets among those who came to witness the pageant? He had letters in his pocket, and a hand-bill calling on the seamen to collect, to the number of 3,000 or 4,000, and present a petition to his Majesty. He had received a variety of accounts from persons in different situations, that riots were to be apprehended, which were sufficient to make the Government hesitate, even before he received the letter from the Lord Mayor. He would even go further, and tell their Lordships, that the gentleman who was now Lord Mayor, and about to go out of office, told him yesterday, it would be absolutely necessary that the escort of honour which accompanied his Majesty should remain in the neighbourhood of Guildhall or the Mansion-house. When the consequences to the City of London were contemplated, —when bloodshed was likely to ensue— when it was remembered, which was an important feature of the case, that these people would be brought together by his Majesty and his Ministers, and the Corporation of London, was it to be borne that they should be the cause of riots, disorder, and loss of life? He must, therefore, say, that he was never more satisfied that he had done his duty than when he gave the advice to his Majesty not to go into the City. He was not alarmed for any danger likely to happen to his Majesty; and any danger to which he himself might be exposed was nothing to the possible consequences which might happen to the people, and therefore he conceived that the advice he had given was likely to be most beneficial.
The Earl of Radnorfound the second explanation of the noble Duke not more satisfactory than the first. Unless the Government had previously made inquiries (and it did not seem that the Government had made inquiries), he did not see how it could advise his Majesty to come to such a determination. The noble Duke said, he had received anonymous letters; but he had not informed their Lordships that he made any inquiries into the truth of their contents. It appeared that the Court of Aldermen, which had made inquiries, had come to a different conclusion from that adopted by the noble Duke. The consequences of such a step as that recom-
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mended by the noble Duke ought to have been well considered. In London the alarm was only casual, and might soon cease; but the conduct of the Government would generate alarm through the whole country, which would not cease for several days. The letter sent to the Lord Mayor had then been travelling sixteen hours, at the rapid rate at which coaches now travel, without one word of explanation accompanying it. Could that do otherwise than create confusion and alarm throughout the country? It was said there was dissatisfaction in some parts of the country; would not that be encouraged? There was agitation in Ireland; would not that receive fresh life from such a communication? The noble Duke could not possibly have seen the danger of his proceedings, or he would have taken some pains to set the letter in its proper light? Suppose that, upon mature investigation, it should be found that the noble Duke's anticipations were not correct, would he not be sorry for his advice? It ought to be followed up, for, if the information were correct, there was a great deal of dissatisfaction in the country. If the noble Duke's information were correct, there must be a rebellion raging in the country. Four thousand special constables were ready to be sworn in to preserve the peace, and if that force were not sufficient to control the disaffected, they must be numerous. If the noble Duke had followed the investigation of these facts, he must have obtained some certain information. He was astonished that 4,000 special constables were considered not sufficient to keep the peace. This astonishment was only increased by the conduct of the noble Duke and his colleagues. He supposed they must have some information: he gave them credit for having that information, and argued that they could not be guilty of so much rashness as to act as they had done without such information, and that they were convinced, after their investigations, that it was not possible to preserve the peace. The City of London might demand, in the first instance, on what ground such a charge was made against it. Their Lordships might next require that some means should be instantly adopted to restore peace and tranquillity, and to give satisfaction to the public mind. He could not help thinking, that if the Ministers advised his Majesty to abstain from going to the Lord Mayor's

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dinner on no other information than that which appeared in this discussion, the proceeding looked very much like a betrayal of their trust.
The Marquis of Butesaid, the language used, and the opinions expressed by some of the noble Lords on the other side, were certainly very different from what he was accustomed to hear from them when they sat on his (the Ministerial) side of the House, and he had the honour of calling them his noble friends. They said, in substance, that the reasons of the noble Duke for the advice which he gave to his Majesty to abstain from giving occasion to tumult and disturbance, was far from being well grounded or justified by the circumstances. He would not take up the time of the House in recapitulating the reasons of the noble Duke, as he himself had so well stated them; but the whole might be comprised in a sentence. The reason assigned by the noble Duke was, that he saw in the circumstance of his Majesty's joining the City procession, a risk of disturbance, of riot, and of confusion—a risk to property—and a risk of bloodshed. He knew no man better able than the noble Duke to appreciate such a risk, or more able effectually to guard against it, if strong measures should be necessary for that purpose. But he highly approved and commended the course which the noble Duke had deemed it prudent to adopt on this occasion. He had heard some, or at least one, of the noble Lords opposite lay great weight on what he called the unpopularity of the noble Duke. He was not on terms of very great intimacy or confidence with the noble Lord, and therefore might not be aware of all the reasons which the noble Lord might have for his conclusion, that the noble Duke was unpopular. But what was the unpopularity? That it had gone to a very considerable extent he could scarcely believe, because it was not very long since he had heard the contrary with his own ears. He would ask, who could be more popular than the noble Duke, a few months ago, during the review of the troops in Hyde Park? But, at all events, as to any popularity worth having, that popularity would attend the man who, although he had no personal fear, yet did what he conscientiously considered to be his duty to his country and his Sovereign, at the risk of losing, for the moment, popularity of another description.
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The noble Duke's advice to his Majesty was, not to do that which would be attended with the imminent risk of shedding the blood of his subjects; and, in doing so, he showed a proper sense of duty, both to the Sovereign and to his subjects; and by this course of conduct, whatever popularity the noble Duke might lose for the moment, he would gain a much better and a longer popularity. Those who had had a large experience in such matters could best appreciate the value of blood, and the noble Duke, by his aversion to run any risk that could be avoided of shedding the blood of citizens, had proved that he was actuated by the best feelings of human nature. It had been said, that the noble Duke acted on the letter of the Lord Mayor Elect. But that was not correct; for the noble Duke had distinctly stated, that he had proceeded upon information from other sources, into which the Ministers had inquired, and had reason to conclude that it was correct. Under all these circumstances, he thought they had acted wisely in giving his Majesty the advice which they did. As to the other topics which had come under discussion that night, he would merely say, that there was not any intention to interfere with the affairs of the Netherlands, except by amicable mediation, and the explanation of the noble Duke on that head was perfectly satisfactory.
The Motion of the Marquis of Lansdown, "That a Copy of the Protocol of 1814, relative to the Union of Belgium and Holland under the Sovereignty of the King of the Netherlands, should be laid on their Lordships' Table," was agreed to.